We are here because we want to wean off of oil. GM is to be applauded for bringing the Volt to fruition. So too should Nissan be praised for trying to make the Leaf pure EV a mainstream vehicle. Even though they are in different segments, the two cars and the categories they represent will compete for the hearts, minds and wallets of the early adopters, and eventually the mass market. Aaron Bragman is a leading automotive research analyst with IHS Global Insight in Troy Michigan, who is frequently quoted in the media. I asked him whether he thinks Volt or Leaf will wind up being more popular. He shares with us the following insights:
There really isn’t any data yet on the popularity of either Leaf or Volt, as of course neither is on the market yet. We’re also not really a consumer market research firm, so we don’t track things like “desirability” like some of the other organizations do.
However, we often do comprehensive market studies and analysis for clients, and have basically come up with a few conclusions about both vehicles.
1. Leaf is likely to look very appealing to many, but only make practical sense for a few.
It’s not an urban car, as most urban dwellers have nowhere to charge it. There’s no plugs in the high-rise garages in New York, or the street parking in Chicago. If you live out in the country and commute to work in the city, you have to be sure you live within the vehicle’s 100 mile range, or have to make sure you can charge it when you get to work. Leaf will make the most sense for suburban dwellers who go from point A to point B commutes out in the suburbs, where they can either charge it at work or stick within their 100 mile range for the entirety of their commute, and charge it in a garage at home nightly. Volt, on the other hand, has no range anxiety issues at all, and is likely to both appeal to and be usable by a much wider range of consumers than Leaf. It’s also a bigger vehicle, which is also likely to appeal to Americans, who are not yet entirely sold on small cars in big numbers.
2. Neither car has a price advantage.
Leaf may be $25K after tax rebates, but it is not usable as an only car. Anyone who owns a Leaf will almost certainly have to own a second vehicle for longer trips, or be very familiar with their local rental car companies or ZipCar outlet. Either way, this is an added expense. Generally not talked about is the home charger system that Leaf buyers will also have to have installed, at a cost of several thousand dollars, if they want to charge their Leaf in anything under 9 hours. Consider that a 100 mile range is roughly about 1/4 of a tank of gasoline in a conventional sedan (or less in an SUV), which is right about the time where most people stop to fuel their vehicle. That range anxiety is likely to be a factor for the Leaf buyers who are not early-adopter types. Volt, on the other hand, can be used as an only car, as it can make long-distance treks as easily as short around-town hops, without any worry of range anxiety. You do not have to buy a second car if you buy a Volt.
Volt may be more expensive initially, but given that people pay $30,000+ for a Toyota Prius, I doubt that people will balk at paying $35K+ for a Volt, which has gotten even more press and hype than the Prius, especially if is viewed as novel and cutting-edge. The price of Volt is also likely to come down quite a bit for the second and third generations, as GM concentates mainly on taking cost out of the battery pack and expanding use of the Voltec system to other vehicles globally.
All in all, I think Leaf is a fantastic car that will have very limited appeal due to the limitations of both the vehicle and the American infrastructure. Volt will have some of those similar challenges, in terms of infrastructure, but it is not being billed as an urban runabout like Leaf is. It may be more expensive initially, but I think the greater utility of the Volt and its ability to be used by a greater sampling of consumers will make it the more popular choice long-term.
This entry was posted on Thursday, April 15th, 2010 at 6:21 am and is filed under BEV, Competitors, E-REV, Marketing. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+62
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:36 am)I think all VOLT owners should agree to pick up stranded Leaf-ers when we see them standing by their Leafs on the side of the road. You know, just to be nice.
Their heart was in the right place when they bought an electric car, they just didn’t understand.
+26
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:38 am)Volt is by far a superior design and likely to be superior in its execution.
It could attract more buyers, even at a higher price.
The question mark is Volt’s availability.
+8
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:39 am)It’s a little premature since there is zero experience with these or similar cars in the marketplace. Hype doesn’t sell cars.
People getting into one, driving it, and deciding that this is their best option for the price is more important than hype. It’s more an emotional decision since you are spending a significant part of your life behind the wheel.
I believe that either car can work for some people. Price will be a significant issue since ICE vehicles are much less expensive and have a track record.
I usually spend a large amount of time comparing prices, features, and social factors (does it look good?) before making a purchase decision. Once I go there, ya better be ready with that contract!
I just bought an ’09 Impala. We looked at 300, CTS, and others before deciding that spending 15k less than new was a good thing. If everything works out, the ’09 will be a trade-in for a 2012 Volt.
+10
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:39 am)Well, Duh!!!!!
I guess we do get it………………
+23
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:40 am)Neither.
I’m not paying $42,500 pre-tax for the Volt and I’m not buying from a foreign owned carmaker anytime soon. The US manufacturers can and WILL get this right. I’m willing to pay $5k more for Voltec than Leaf and $10K more than a comparable ICE. No…a Yaris is not comparable to a Volt.
+12
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:47 am)$42 is a bit much. I can by a lot of gas even at $5/gallon for an equivalent sized car with an an ICE. I keep a car for 3 years and I’ll wait until the next gen.
+25
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:58 am)I’m just looking forward to the day when new technology cars have names with MORE than 4 letters.
Volt, Leaf, City, Zoom, ZaPP, BiFF, PoWW…….
+13
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:59 am)The MSRP of the Volt ought to be announced in the next month or two. That will be the first deciding factor for many, of course, then, the availability next.
If the price factor is doable, then the next best thing might be to have some sort of official delivery schedule. (Such as, “This dealer will be getting units number 501 and 502 in December and January”). That would help a lot if there is a fairly well-set customer notification from the Chevy Store (which I believe they already do) where you have your name already on their list.
+6
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:04 am)No one can predict how the traffic will be and many will take a chance with the Leaf. Then, you will see many of them stranded along the road—guaranteed. The passerby will think, “noway will I ever get one of them”.
I for one will never own such a limited vehicle.
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:15 am)Why on earth would I buy a car that has a 100 mile range (maybe) and a 21 hour recharge (on normal house current) unless I pay out a good bit of cash to provide a high voltage/amp connection in my garage (and which would NOT be available outside of my home)?
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:16 am)As other posters have observed, it is entirely premature to make informed pronouncements regarding the popularity of either vehicle. My family needs a second car that can carry five people. The Volt won’t do it, and the Leaf, while having three rear seat belts, lacks a center head restraint. In any event, we cannot afford a $35K automobile.
+25
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:18 am)“Chevrolet Volt for $35,000 (after tax credit) 63% (31 votes)”
That’s $42,500 MSRP, that’s not right. What happen to MSRP priced “well below” $40K?
Please GM, don’t make the Volts MSRP a price prohibitive purchase.
NPNS!
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:23 am)A Leaf would not work For me at any price so it is out. A Volt would work fine and save money If i keep it for 20 Years or gas hits $5.00 so at $20,000.00 it will look very attractive and it looks like it will not be available here until the 2nd gen anyways. All this goes out the window of coarse when the 2005 prius needs replacing in 2015.
Tom
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:26 am)I really like the Volt. I just wish it was a pure EV. I plan on purchasing an EV within 12 months and since I have other vehicles, extended range is not the issue for
me. Breaking away from oil is a higher priority. I’m torn between the Volt and the Leaf. I await GM’s pricing (lease?) to help make my decision…
+9
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:29 am)Leaf TOO ugly at any price, the front looks like the Geico Geeko.
+13
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:30 am)A pure EV is a niche market for now. The future may be different.
The Volt is a superior product which can be plugged into a standard electrical outlet.
Why buy a Leaf, have range anxiety issues, and spend several thousand dollars on a charger?
Fa get a bout it.
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:32 am)I agree with Aaron, that his comparison lacks a lot of data and is, therefore, his best guess, but I also appreciate how he’s separated the two vehicles based on their audience.
I am a suburban driver, going from point A to point B everyday, well below the 100 mile mark. My wife and I both own vehicles, so I already have a second car in the family for longer trips. And most of my driving is just me going to and from work, so I do not need a larger car. Therefore, I am one of the potential Leaf buyers.
Having said that, Nissan has done its darnedest to turn me off to the Leaf, first by their comments about the usefulness of electrics (back a couple of years), then by their lack of updates on their car. GM, on the other had, has been working hard to keep reminding people that this new vehicle is coming out, how tough creating the new tech has been, as well as keeping the Volt on people’s minds.
GM has worked it, Nissan has tanked it.
The point is moot anyways… as a driver in Ohio, neither car will be available here for several years.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:34 am)The statistics in Georgia with the additional $5,000 tax credit may look very different. The Volt will most likely be priced a few thousand over the Leaf and rightly so but that premium plus the $5,000 tax credit available in Georgia only for BEV’s will most likely sway purchasers toward the Leaf. If the Volt is priced at 35,000 versus the Leaf’s 32,780 that amounts to a $7,220 difference which is hard to ignore. Of course the Georgia incentive, enacted in 2001, could not have foreseen that it would encourage the choice of a foreign product over a domestic one.
If the Volt is priced at over 40K then the premium widens considerably and GM may lose most of its market to Nissan in Georgia – at least until the 5,000 tax credit runs out.
+7
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:40 am)Here’s a “what if” for you.
Place a 2011 Volt, a 2010 Camaro SS, a 2010 Traverse LT Sport Utility, and a 2011 Voltec Orlando next to each other on a dealer lot. Post this sign: Your choice $35,000
=D-Volt
+9
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:53 am)I think claiming the Leaf costs more because a second car is needed is wrongly argued. Only those who need a second car anyhow are are likely to want a Leaf, and by no means all of them. Saying the five seat Leaf is smaller than a four seat Volt is also wrong in a practical sense.
The main point should be that there are just far more people whose needs could be well served by a Volt than the Leaf. Even so, if you measure popularity by sales the Leaf might be more “popular” for quite awhile unless GM speeds up the planned production ramp up.
+11
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:57 am)The Volt is a pure EV up to ~40 miles. That satisfies my desire to turn my back on imported oil and the cost of armed conflicts fought to assure our access to that resource.
I only keep one car at a time so the Leaf would come with too many limitations. The few thousand dollars I’ll be spending to equip my “pure EV” Volt with an engine/generator set takes care of all those limitations.
I keep a car for ten years so the purchase cost isn’t too much of a factor: I’ve spent years saving for the next one instead of making loan payments.
I live in the heart of a city, but have a garage with easy access to 220V for the charger.
Yeah, my next car will be a Volt — especially if GM spins off a sport wagon version.
+15
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:04 am)Lyle, this summary of your discussion with Aaron Bragman is another excellent confirmation of the inherent superiority of the Voltec architecture vs pure EVs —in only two days. I seldom repeat previous posts, but one presentation given yesterday at the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) session in Detroit is well worth revisiting…
At yesterday’s session of the SAE in Detroit, Don Hillebrand, Director of Argonne Nation Lab’s Transportation Research said PURE EVs are unlikely to reach 4% of the US market by 2020, as some in the industry predict. Hillebrand says the primary reasons are:
1) Battery swapping won’t work for a long time for lack of standardization by manufacturers
2) Fast charge stations will remain much too expensive for a long time, and
3) Economical Li-Air batteries will need at least 10-20 years of additional development
I’ve long believed this to be the case, and that GM’s Voltec would benefit from these issues.
Source: Automotive News Webcast at: http://www.autonews.com/article/20100414/VIDEO/304149942/1219
Bragman & Hillebrand emphasize different issues regarding pure EVs, but both experts clearly believe pure EVs will struggle to capture significant shares of the US market. After test driving the Chevy Volt in NYC on 3/29, I thoroughly agree with them both.
/One more thing: If Carlos Ghosn is as smart as reputed, Nissan is already secretly working hard on an updated version of the LEAF employing EREV; if not, he’s plainly just crazy (IMHO)
+12
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:10 am)PS to my above post: As I’ve said before, styling is a deciding factor for a large segment of US buyers. If Ghosn doesn’t ALSO have Nissan secretly working hard on restyling the LEAF he’s just BEGGING for a US sales disaster!
+10
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:14 am)Easy decision. Although I don’t know where I’m going to come up with $140,000!
+5
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:21 am)Classic….and of course how many Volt’s GM execs decide to make will decide this as well.
+5
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:23 am)So the Leaf works for suburban buyers with short commutes or two cars. The Volt is able to use liquid fuel or electricity so that it functions like having two cutting edge cars.
The Volt works for people who do not have garages. The Leaf has a database with charging locations and cellular connectivity to help keep you going without the convenience of liquid fuel.
If you are somewhere in between price and features will be a deciding factor.
If operating cost is your primary concern you will opt for an ancient Geo Metro
There are a lot of smart folks here, and with a large screen giving you the location of all charging opportunities and the car nagging you about your low state of charge, even your caveman cousins won’t be able to be stranded on the roadside without really working hard at it.
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:23 am)The interview touched on some of the points we’ve covered here many times. Bottom line is there are many different driving patterns, and there are more than enough people that will suck up the supply for the first couple years, and after that both vehicles will be improved.
The driving pattern most often ignored is the 60 mile commute to work and back. The Volt needs to use gasoline to complete this daily trip, where as the Leaf does not. For the million folks with this driving pattern the Leaf is a far better deal than the volt. The volt is unbeatable for one family cars with a garge. Most people with a garage have 2 cars though and the Leaf will make sense for many of these people.
Its all good as both cars will lead to continued improvements and the appearance of charging infrastructure in apartments and work places.
In the meantime I still don’t know if I will get a Volt, a Leaf or a Transit connect. But what I do assume is I’ll probably lease for 2-3 years whatever is available first in my area, then after the lease is up I’ll have lots of options to choose from.
+7
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:26 am)“Aaron Bragman is a leading automotive research analyst with IHS Global Insight in Troy Michigan, who is frequently quoted in the media.”
Since GM-Volt.com has been online 2.5 years longer than Chevrolet’s own site on the subject, the pros and cons of both vehicles has already been examined in great detail.
I’m guessing he spent about 3 hours reviewing this site to arrive at his thoughtful conclusions. How much does he get paid for his ‘quotes to the media’ ? Can I get in on that action? I could use a second income.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:29 am)I think the article understates the demand for the Leaf (and all other BEVs) as second cars. With the average American household owning 2.28 cars, I think the demand will be much larger than anticipated. Anyway, all plug-ins are a good thing. Getting off middle east oil is very important. How many billions of dollars are spent each year safe-guarding the middle east? Let China or Europe pay those billions to guard the oil.
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:29 am)Slow news day at the GM-Volt.com Ranch….. Now every point this automotive industry analyst made has already been hashed over X 20 on this site – I hope nobody paid for this professional “insight”.
Speaking of Insight – has anyone here thought of buying a scrapped or wrecked Honda Insight for a grand or two, and converting it to a BEV with lithium batteries? I’ve had this wild hair the last couple of days, and since no Volt will be available my way until well into 2012 or so….and since I just couldn’t see myself laying out $28 large for a Leaf…. I’ve been scratching my beard and trying to calculate how much labor and money it would take to convert an Insight.
Just think about the possibilities – I searched the web and found an EV Insight project back in ’02, they were putting NIMHs in it and guessing a range of 100 miles. Can you imagine what an Insight would do with lithium batteries???! You’d have to double that, plus more.
It’s just a passing fancy, something to think about on this slowwwwwww news day…
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:31 am)I like it!!!! That would be a most excellent weekend newspaper ad. I will speak to the boss about that one.
+7
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:41 am)Mikeinatl ” I think all VOLT owners should agree to pick up stranded Leaf-ers when we see them standing by their Leafs on the side of the road. You know, just to be nice. ” How about the Nissan Leaf owners giving you a ride back home from the Chevy dealer for the 50 th time when you are once again told the Volt you were expecting did not come in and they really sold it to the owners niece. I’d love to have a Volt too, heck I’d like to take a ride to the space station but that isn’t going to happen anytime soon either, so in the mean time while your waiting in line impatiently and gas is $4.50 / gallon I ‘ll have 30 K miles on my Leaf already. I’ll take one of each as soon as either are available. You may not like what is inside my gift horses mouth but at least I will have one to ride.
+6
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:44 am)I agree that GM could sell the Volt for quite a few K more than the Leaf because it is a much more capable and sophisticated vehicle.
However GM reads this site! We can’t let them know this- we want a cheaper Volt
Besides, I think a huge price difference would be bad press (although very unfair).
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:48 am)As has been said before, GM “fixed” range anxiety with an on board generator. The Leaf is attempting to address the issue with its “EV-it” digital technology which always tells you how far you can go so if you stay within the circle, no range anxiety.
Now we do not know just how effective the Leaf approach will be, perhaps not at all, perhaps some, or perhaps significantly. Time will tell.
The point about suburbia is valid, and California is the land of suburbia, both the San Francisco Sacramento corridor, plus the Silicon valley in the north and in the south we have the largest suburban area on the planet.
By this time next year, we should be able to reconsider the competition from a more knowledgeable position.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:58 am)I love Volt, but pay little attention to biased “analysis”. It is clear that this fellow has little idea what real research means. “Opinion” and “research” do not agree.
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:59 am)I think the guy is spot on that the Leaf will only appeal to suburban daily commuters who drive significantly less than 100mi/day and have a second family car. But there are quite a few of those people out there (I’m one)
The Volt would appeal to the same people, but its extra features will not provide any extra benefit to that group, so it will really come down to a pricing decision at that point, with leasing likely being very popular.
+4
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:02 am)I’d be inclined to agree about Nissan, but for the following:
1) Their primary goal appears to be early market saturation first and foremost. How distant are engineering, reliability and even styling on that list of goals?
2) The points made by IHS Global Insight seem well reasoned.
3) (And this is the real kicker for me), The abusive comments that the LEAF troll population like to leave here.
The Volt will win out because getting it right is GM’s primary goal first and foremost. Unfortunately, many people will “remember the headline” and “ignore the retraction.” The LEAF has the potential to give all EVs a black eye, and to hurt GM’s roll out of a superior solution for the vast majority of drivers. That’s hard to forgive.
On the other hand, competition is good for the consumer, and there are those who will find use for the LEAF (with the caveat that long-term battery life and other reliability issues are unknowns).
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:06 am)I would buy the 35K 2011 Voltek orlando before my wife could even say what colors does it come in.
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:11 am)Tesla (5) Ampera (6)
They’re trending that way
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:12 am)It feels nice to get one of these codes, but you are more likely to get sucked down into your shower drain than come away satisfied with what happens next. Not GM’s fault necessarily, there just isn’t a good way to anticipate demand/advanced dealer programs/factory issues, etc.
CorvetteGuy can attest to this I’m sure, but buyers are a impatient lot, and the GM post-order interaction/arrival accuracy (especially on the new hotness) is something I will just let you experience first hand.
Hopefully, the Volt has something like this set up by some people who care (at least you can feel like you are getting somewhere):
http://www.camarotracking.com/
If not, remember this number 1-800-222-1020, that is once you get your order number, you can get info there if you can’t break into the VIS yourself.
As long as you are prepared to wait, and take any delivery information with a grain of salt, you’ll be ok. I wouldn’t go into it expecting much else.
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:13 am)Cute idea (and you’d have a ready “battery bay”), but I don’t think that the little pancake motor in the Insight will come close to being adequate for real driving by itself. (Perhaps you’re talking about making a plug-in Insight). Don’t forget that you’d have to crack their proprietary algorithms to tell the car how to behave with all-lithium batteries.
It might be easier overall to start with a completely ICE vehicle and do a conversion. A small pickup truck, for example, could carry batteries in part of the bed, as well as in place of the engine for a nicely balanced ride. The Honda “pickup” has that hidden bay underneath the bed which could be used for battery storage, perhaps.
I believe Captain Jack can speak to the question of EV conversion in more detail.
/paging CJS, CJS please pick up the white courtesy phone …
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:13 am)Lets see: Butt UGLY
I doubt it will have any where near a 100 mile range
21hr recharge time on houshold current
EREV only
I don’t see any real choice here!! The Volt is the only way to go.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:16 am)Battery life and reliability are unknowns for both cars. Personally, I think the Leaf has a better company record (Nissan) than Volt (GM). At least in their reputation.
BTW. Nissan is running TV ads about Leaf in DFW area on Fox. They are tying back to their current line and show Leaf as a projection into the future. The front panel of the Leaf is prominently displayed and the operation of the flap door is shown with a zoom-out to the full car. It’s a pretty well thought-out ad.
– Here it is.
– Here’s what it does (same as other Nissans’)
– Here’s what’s different
– And it’s all good.
+7
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:17 am)Hi All,
I bought a 2007 Chevy Diesel Pickup new for $43k and when the price of diesel went up to $5/Gallon
I lost $10-$15k in value and I don’t think the value has returned. Now the price of fuel is going up again, (and will insure that the value doesn’t return to the Pickup) thanks to the fat cats on Wall Street (Speculating on oil), that also sub primed us all and devalued all of our residential and commercial property. If we start driving electric vehicles in all shape and sizes supplied by whomever and from whatever country can first provide them to us, we are all winners because electricity is a regulated source of energy that will not be able to be driven by Wall Street speculation.
Additionally the rapid advent of electrification of our transportation system through new and retrofitted automobiles will create a new local economy, particularly retrofitting because those will be “sticky U.S. Jobs” and that electrification will create the opportunity for all Americans to become small energy companies through home energy creation via, solar, wind and other local alternatives (Again creating local “Sticky Jobs).
Additionally, we will become a more secure nation as we rid ourselves of foreign oil and the true cost of a gallon of gas when you throw in the “Hidden War component cost to a Gallon of Gas”
Which could bring the cost of a gallon of gas into the $8/gallon Range.
We need to be thinking about the larger picture and not get stuck on small questions of Leaf vs Volt or lease vs buy .
Additionally, as more electric cars are sold, more batteries will be made and we now have 20 battery plants planned for the U.S., again more U.S. Jobs. We should have a WWll mentality of a short term goal of five years to be off foreign oil. through complete electrification of our transportation system.
”
This plan including retrofitting cars and homes would provide many “legitimate” (not sub prime) great banking opportunity to finance the new American Renaissance by capturing the foreign oil, net drain on our country and economy.
Thanks
Tim
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:21 am)Thanks for the memories… “buyers are an impatient lot”… At first it felt great taking orders for the New Camaro. The early buyers were beyond excited. Then came the GM ‘re-alignment’. Everything went on hold, but they refused to admit that was one of the reasons. The biggest delay came when one of the parts suppliers went out of business. For months after that I got phone calls almost daily. And it got worse when that Camaro tracking site went up because some other dealers got theirs first.
I don’t expect that level of disaster with the VOLT. [fingers crossed, arms crossed, legs crossed, eyes crossed.] I just hope you guys are a little more patient and understanding.
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:21 am)Hey! Don’t malign the Geico Gecko!
+5
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:29 am)In an absolute sense, this is correct; however we know sooo much more about the development and care of the battery in the Volt than we do anything about the LEAF. I know who I’d be more inclined to trust at this point.
I strongly disagree concerning company records. Nissan is, at best, perpetually struggling “back in the pack” distantly behind Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and Kia. LEAF could well represent a desperation play on their part.
Oh, wait. You said reputation. Well, this is why GM has to major on getting it right regardless of cost while Nissan goes for “Making a splash” at all costs.
+6
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:30 am)Hey now, he always spoke well of you.
+7
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:33 am)You make some great points, which segue into asking the obvious question missing from the Global Insight interview (FWIW Global Insight is I believe the largest economic consulting firm in the world): What does it mean for the Volt to be more popular if GM doesn’t make any? If Nissan is making 250K units a year, and GM is making 50K Volts a year, is the Volt really going to be the “more popular” choice?
If you don’t make them then you can’t sell them, and if you don’t sell them they’re not going to be popular. A few years ago Bob Lutz was talking about selling millions of EREVs. Now it seems management thinks that BEVs will outsell EREVs and talks about “waiting to see” how demand works out. The evidence suggests we’re witnessing a decided walking back from a commitment to EREV technology.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:36 am)Give me my gas crutch or die! I like using my batteries “til they’re empty.
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:37 am)Doesn’t really help much to know where the ‘recharging’ stations are when it takes a 4 hour stop even at 220 to recharge the thing, does it?
Only use for this car I can see is as the ‘second’ car that isn’t driven much at all.
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:40 am)A local suburban “grocery getter,” a “road-trip” proof kids’ car, an intermediate-range commuter (but never an “only” car).
+9
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:41 am)My *impression* is that Nissan is scrambling with the Leaf. GM seems far more in control and on schedule which will maximize reliability and minimize problems. While I’d bet the the Volt will be a better car and more reliable car, the 3 year lease offered for the Leaf more or less negates these advantages.
I hope that GM goes the lease route as well for two main reasons. One is it gives the consumer the benefit of the $7500 rebate at the point of sale. No waiting. No filing. No muss. No fuss. Second is it will obviate dealer markups above MSRP.
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:50 am)I think Mr. Bragman’s analysis is correct with a big “if” here for both manufacturers – if they could produce to demand – which they can’t and IMHO, won’t be able to for a long time.
As I’m guessing gasoline will be approaching $4 a gallon in the summer of 2011 (based on how oil has recovered from last years recession induced lows – and this will just be the start until the next recession crimps oil prices again), I doubt either manufacturer will be able to produce to capacity for years and the “popularity” of either car will just be determined by the production levels that the particular manufacturer sets.
Nissan will increase the range of the Leaf (they said 200 miles in a couple of years), GM will be able to reduce the battery price in the Volt and GM will launch the Voltec based pure BEV Lutz mentioned they were moving ahead with.
We just need GM to produce more than 50k of Volts asap – they’ve got the way more marketable vehicle, gasoline will be at record highs threatening our economy in the coming years, alot of Americans will want to be able to do something real about gas prices and will finally be getting a chance – now GM just has to choose to capitalize on these perfect conditions to sell an EV/EREV vehicle in.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:51 am)I think the Volt at around $35k net after the tax credit is too expensive for me. I will pay from $25k to $30k for one. After GM announces Volt pricing some time in the upcoming weeks we can end the speculation. Then we can concentrate on when exactly we can purchase one at our local Chevy dealer. I look forward to all these milestones being reached. I am becoming more concerned after the past week’s news about GM’s now working on the 2nd generation Volt that it might not be better for me to wait an extra year or so for better interior and smaller, less expensive battery. Such a good problem to have!
+5
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:51 am)Cost is the issue. Get the Volt priced right ($25,000 or less after rebate) and GM can sell 250,000 a year easy. I know that is wishful thinking but maybe by Gen III?
+7
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:51 am)Additionally, as more electric cars are sold, more batteries will be made and we now have 20 battery plants planned for the U.S., again more U.S. Jobs. We should have a WWll mentality of a short term goal of five years to be off foreign oil. through complete electrification of our transportation system. – Tim # 44
Totally agree. Our quest for oil foreign policy is so screwy, costly, short-sighted. If only we had spent that 1 trillion dollars, cost of war in IraqAfganPakistan to date, on windmills, pv arrays. Money down a rat hole.
+5
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:57 am)Volt more popular than Leaf? Uh….. DUHHHH!!!!
You don’t have to be an analyst to figure this out. The Leaf is a compromise whereas the Volt is the full package. The Leaf is one dimensional whereas the Volt is multi-dimensional. I’ve predicted that the Leaf will bomb out when it hits the market, and I have no reason to change my opinion.
Nissan is talking out of both sides of their mouth with the Leaf. They trumpet it as the “Zero Emmission” vehicle, then when asked about its limited range, their answer is that people will have a second car to take care of their longer distance driving needs….. which means a Leaf owner will pollute the air with exhaust emissions like everybody else.
The Leaf has so many holes in its message, people are going to catch on pretty quickly to why the Volt is a far superior approach to electric powered vehicles.
+4
Apr 15th, 2010 (10:10 am)Just build it already DANGGGGG!!!!
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (10:11 am)If you want to recharge to 80% SOC, it should be a shorter time. Especially if you are at like 60% SOC already.
I can see Starbucks, Walmart, Target, Malls and others having free ports as a promotional draw.
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (10:14 am)I said it yesterday, the Volt is a “Transformer”. Fully charged it’s a BEV, afterwards it “Transforms” into a regular car. A 2 in 1 right?
/or did I say that a few posts back?
//Back to my Kahlua and coffee and more Kahlua!!!!!…..bahahahahahahahaaa!!!
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (10:16 am)Don’t forget H( . y . )TERS!!!!!
You geta charge one way or the other there……AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (10:27 am)I answered “Neither at those prices” because I hope the Volt will be closer to $30,000 than to $35,000. I certainly prefer the Volt over the Leaf, but since I own three vehicles and will probably always own at least two, the Leaf could serve me to some extent. I will cross that bridge when I come to it – as will most of us. It is much too early to “lock-in” a buying decision. Most of us have been on this web-site supporting the Volt since early 2007 and I don’t see that changing a whole lot. But prices, features and other factors will be part of the final purchase decision. But I do expect to purchase a Volt sometime next year.
+4
Apr 15th, 2010 (10:32 am)I heartily share your hope that GM will also offer the Volt on a $7,500 rebate-reduced lease basis —the one very smart thing Nissan has announced they’ll do to help market the LEAF.
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (10:37 am)Agreed, but it’s not a Geko. It’s a Catfish.
As much as I like BEV’s, I’m afraid they would have to PAY ME to drive it.
The Leaf styling (if you call it that) is just too freakin’ bizarre for me.
I can kinda overlook the rear end treatment is that’s all there was…. but the front ?
What were they thinking? Was the whole design team on drugs?
Why the “stretched lip” look above that chrome strip?
Why does it need to say “Zero Emmision” on the front bumper?
If Nissan insists on keeping that in production, why not spell it backwards so I can at least read it in my rearview mirror! (Like on an AMBULANCE).
Seriously, if they would have dropped the “stretched lip” and that chrome strip it would have been a big improvement. As it is……Yeeech! Maybe someone can develop a REALLY WIDE aftermarket front license plate bracket to cover it up!
Back by popular demand !
+4
Apr 15th, 2010 (10:38 am)I don’t like this talk about weakening the battery pack to curb cost. That will happen anyway with high volume! I surely don’t want to have to think about replacing anything halfway through its life, or trying to sell it off with a bad battery.
I’m actually getting pretty excited about the Bright Idea (yes, also 4 letters…). It’s a light-weighted (700 lbs lighter than VOLT!) cargo van with standard capacity and a Voltish platform. 40-mile AER, 40 mpg thereafter. Its electric capability will save the business transportation expense where the Volt saves the commuter. Let’s hope for both vehicles’ sakes that would-be owners are willing to invest in the capital technology that allows them to save money down the road!
BTW, let’s curb the curb weight off the Volt for Gen 2!
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:09 am)#59
Amen. +1
LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:11 am)True that, LOL! +1
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:12 am)#45
I’ve got a lot more patience than money, so no problem there, LOL. +1
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:13 am)+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:13 am)For the insight on his idea, you will need to just do a full extraction of the engine and motor. Honda’s IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) doesn’t allow any EV mode of operation at all.
Now if you want to do a full conversion of any car, a pickup truck is the easiest for the reason Jackson mentioned. Depending on the motor, controller, BMS and battery solution, it can range from $10,000.00 to $20,000.000, most is battery cost.
Checkout EV Components at: http://evcomponents.com/cscart/index.php
A couple of nice guys. IMHO, they are growing faster than their man/woman power can handle…..lol
Talk to James Morrison or to order talk to Lorraine.
/don’t mention me because they’ll just say they saw the Disney movie.
+5
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:14 am)I think a red Leaf could really be big in Canada!
+6
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:15 am)Frankly, i do not understand why people keep comparing the Volt and the Leaf. it’s like comparing apples to oranges.
The Leaf is handicapped by its limited range. There is probably a market for cars like that but it is not the mainstream market.
On the contrary, the Volt is for the mainstream market. it is a responsible and clever design intended to address the needs of many.
Go Volt.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:16 am)My patience is dictated by how much $$$ I have. It’s inversely proportional. The less $$$ I have the more patient I have to be.
EDIT: wait, you just said that didn’t you????
/wow, it’s been a while since I had Kahlua in my coffee…..
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:16 am)#57
A lot worse than a rat hole, IMHO. If we had just burned the money, it would be one thing. But we also have huge world wide ill will and thousands of dead and maimed soldiers and civilians to show for it. Not to mention tens of thousands of dead and maimed Iraqi and Afghan civilians.
Short answer:
Amen. +1
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:17 am)Thanks Nasaman, as always you educate us.
Without your permission I’ll use your source to complement the conference I give next Tuesday in Brussels called “Plug-in the grid, can EV make the difference ?”
Best regards,
JC NPNS
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:18 am)#61
Well, if you’ve gotten back to where you can afford the Kahlua, that’s a big plus. The economy must really be turning around, LOL. +1
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:20 am)This is just speculation, but exactly what you’re looking for!
Seems that the included video has been removed by GM!
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/12/production-chevy-orlando-spotted-in-promo-vid-w-video/
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:21 am)Nope, still in my demoted minus $800.00 position. Just had a little extra leftover.
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:23 am)#74
See #77, hahaha.
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:27 am)Good to hear from you as always, JC! I really wish I could attend your conference in Brussels!
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:30 am)Since I get put into Muderashun for putting in links to forbidden sites, go to A*U*T*O*B*L*O*G.COM and search for Orlando.
The article is titled,
“Production Chevy Orlando spotted in promo vid?,
We’re not entirely certain, but it sure looks like it. General Motors recently released a YouTube vid explaining what makes a Chevrolet a Chevrolet that shows a series a of sweeping shots that catches bowtie specials like the Corvette Grand Sport and the 2010 Camaro. At around 1:05, the camera focuses on the C-Pillar of a Camaro, and as the shot pans across the coupe’s greenhouse, a quick glimpse of two production-ready Chevy crossover vans is given.
The crossover on the right looks a whole lot like the Chevy Orlando concept debuted at the 2008 Paris Motor Show last fall, which also looks an awful lot like the vehicle captured in these spy photos below. The Orlando is set to replace the HHR in Chevy showrooms by 2011 with seating for seven and car-like fuel economy.
The crossover on the left could be even more interesting, as it appears to share styling cues with the Volt, an example of which is parked next to it. Could this be a crossover with the automaker’s extended range EV Voltec hardware underhood? Is it the Chevy version of the plug-in Buick crossover we heard about last week? Again, we can’t be sure with just a few seconds of video as evidence, but we’re willing to wager that the Volt styling cues signifies that there is likely an electric motor and batteries somewhere under that hood.
GM likely has managers and ad execs who scour these videos before they ever see the light of day, so we should assume that the company is simply giving us a cryptic peek at what is to come. Follow the jump to view the vid for yourself. Thanks for the tip, Ted!”
Note, the video has been removed by the user (GM).
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:39 am)Haha! +1 to for the laugh.
Oh, and don’t forget sales tax if your state has it.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:43 am)If GM decides to (or could), price the Volt at the same price as a Leaf I don’t believe hardly any Leafs would be sold. The choice between them is pretty much a no brainer unless you’re in that group of people who don’t want to use any gas at all.
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:50 am)@ 76 I wrote
I forgot to write :
- that standadization of batteries helps but is not a must for battery swapping feasibility (source Renault France and Betterplace)
- Fast charge stations cost is a matter of speculation again, Renault and Betterplace price it at 250 $ apiece (extrapolated from the investment costs of Israel’s and Australia’s Betterplace networks) not too much if you make it generate revenues from charging in a public place.
- My microeconomic simulations show that – for Western Europe, where the costs of fossil fuels are significantly higher than in the US, the cost of the battery (375$/kWh for the Leaf 9,000$/24kWh – compatible with the latest Deutsche Bank report that estimates that the price of the battery-kWh should be around 400 $ in 2011) is no more prohibitive IF the “nude” EV is sold at a cost not exceeding too much the cost of the ICE car equivalent.
Even without public subsidies, average Belgian consumers may gain some 300 €/year in the worst current situation but could gain up to 1,500 €/year (at current prices) if smart V2G policies are implemented as recommended by our national electricity distribution regulator (CREG, their report (sorry in French only : http://www.creg.info/pdf/Etudes/F929FR.pdf)
Best regards,
JC NPNS
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:54 am)Hi Nasaman, if you wish I could send you my Power point slides showing some simulation results. (If so, write me a mail at my alternative mail address : jacqueminjc@gmail.com so that I could know where to send them, I shall join the conference prospectus and programme)
Best regards,
JC
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:59 am)No. The only thing we’ll know is what GM will charge for the first 4,000 volts to be sold over the next 14 months. Their pricing will just be a ceiling, we still won’t know what the Vold will sell for when GM starts making hundreds of thousands of them a year.
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (12:03 pm)The best market for the leaf is for a 60-75 miles daily commute that uses no gas. The Volt would use gas for this commute. There are people with 2 cars, a garage and daily commute of 50-75 miles that would save lots more money and lots of gas buying the leaf over the Volt.
Different cars for different folks.
-2
Apr 15th, 2010 (12:13 pm)I would buy the Leaf because of its range instead of the Volt except for the fact that you can’t buy the battery, you have to lease it. I drive 44 miles round trip and have to climb a hill (about 600 feet elevation difference) right at the end of that trip so the volt is useless for me unless I can charge it at work. If I have to run the engine every day then I’ve lost the advantage of being electric.
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (12:21 pm)???
How so? The engine will just run for the last few miles of your trip, and, yes, quite likely on the hill climb. You’ll still get the benefits of EREV most of the time.
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (12:30 pm)It depends entirely on your driving-profile. If you commute 60 miles (round trip) to work and own a minivan for family outings and roadtrips, the Leaf is a clear winner, and will save a tons of fuel (literally over its lifetime).
On the other hand, if you commute 18 miles to work and prefer to only own one vehicle, then the Volt is a very clear winner.
You folks need to realize that the era of one-size-fits-all solutions ended when cheap oil ended, and also that even people who appear to be similar at first glance often have very different needs.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (12:36 pm)Nissan has already stated they will sell both. Or lease. You’re pick.
Misconception there my friend. In the Volt, after that 40 electric is depleted, the Generator starts up and keeps you going. Granted yes you will be burning opec juice like some people keep pointing out but it’s your fall back if you will.
Apr 15th, 2010 (12:41 pm)That’s all? Lucky you. I am looking for a job much much closer to home.
The problem is, I have to take my current salary and divide it by a large number. That is the only way I will get a job much closer to home.
Apr 15th, 2010 (12:45 pm)#86
That sounds like a really good prospect for a GM-Volt.com guest editorial. How about it Dr. Dennis?
Apr 15th, 2010 (12:49 pm)#88
I agree, but I’m not buying a Nissan. Which is why I keep begging for a BEV Spark, or something similar.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (12:57 pm)I think some here are under the illusion that MSRP – Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (sticker price) is based entirely on costs and that lower costs means lower MSRP. MSRP is based on competition and marketing. MSRP has little to do with costs (other than obvious accounting reasons).
Volt is kind of a special situation since there is no direct competition (EREV) out there. However, it *does* compete with Malibu, Cruze and other ICE-based cars. It needs to be in that price range to sell at all. I know buying a new car is irrational, but, who in their right mind would pay 20k over the price of a Malibu just for electric drive? (Ok, a few of us would, but, we’re not as rational about it as the general public.
)
I am on my 3rd Dakota pickup. Every single one was more expensive (by a lot) than the prior model years. For each iteration, you couldn’t even order the same equipment. It was always more expensive, heavier, bigger engines, more safety equipment (anti-lock, air bags, 4-wheel disk, etc.) and more effective (and expensive) pollution controls. Each one was also better-handling, more capable, more powerful and better equipped, so, I am OK with it.
Once GM corporate comes up with an MSRP, the following years will be higher mostly due to Government regulations. If they are not competitive, they will use rebates to get the final price in line. Now they may lower the ‘starting’ MSRP if they drastically reduce the perceived value in the marketplace (such as dropping AER to 5 miles or making a BEV version.)
I predict (and with good track record) that a well-equipped Volt will be higher MSRP every successive year.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (12:59 pm)Well, it sounds like the Leaf is the car for you. There’s plenty of room in the marketplace for both concepts. I agree that the Volt “should” have the wider appeal if the price can be kept down, but I applaud both attempts. Very bold, very strong, very forward looking.
Apr 15th, 2010 (1:15 pm)I disagree with #3. No one ever has any idea of the scientific breakthroughs coming, or future consumer demands, although many think they do. Remember, the PC would never need more than 1 kilobyte of RAM (or some such thing) according, once upon a time, to Bill Gates.
+4
Apr 15th, 2010 (1:20 pm)I think #1 is wrong about the volt. If the leaf doesn’t appeal to city dwellers because there are no charging ports then why would the volt appeal to them? Why would someone in the city want an erev that always has the ice running?
-5
Apr 15th, 2010 (1:21 pm)Analyst must be from Volt fans I guess? Anyway, his points are bogus as there are based on assumption that the only car Volt buyers would own will be Volt. Most people I know have 2+ cars / per family. Certainly violates his assumption. Moreover, I dare to assume Volt will never become the only car being so small and impractical (4 seats, minuscule trunk space). Leaf certainly is in the same category and therefore has similar limits. The only difference (besides huge Volt price markup) is range extender, which may or may not be useful – that remains to be seen.
IMHO, Volt is doomed with its high price prediction and extra tech. In just 2 years from now simple and cheap EVs will become ubiquitous and charging posts will be added everywhere. Range extender will not be needed even for long trips.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (1:30 pm)(repost, not sure what happened to the original)
I can think of one market where the Leaf would be a hit — parents buying cars for their teenagers. Just consider:
- keeps the kids close to home
- limits their daily driving (without the quick charger)
- teens today already have cell phones (if stranded)
- if they’re carting friends around they can push it home if need be
- no way boys can pick up chicks with this vehicle, avoiding unwanted, uhm, baby events…
OK I’m being a bit silly, but it really does seem to make sense as a car for parents to buy for their teens. I don’t have any kids so I can’t really put myself in a parent’s shoes however.
Apr 15th, 2010 (1:34 pm)A PC still doesn’t need over 512k (the original max on PC) if you run a thin Linux kernel or DOS 5. I think we’ve played past that hole already though.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (1:38 pm)About VOLT Leadership confirming ER 50 mpg; I posited VOLT should up its teeny-weeny fuel tank. And for ER ICE to assist in any up climb driving. First to extend range and second to extend battery life. One poster needling ‘what goes up hill ..’ and so forth. Meaning I overlooked regeneration. Usually mountains just aren’t up and down. Its up up up and then down down down. A 12 galoon equipped under ER assist VOLT could make it over the Sierras no sweat. And LEAF stays home. Why anyone would pay 25 grand for a car that can’t make a small overhill drive escapes me. Whereas the VOLT is the real deal. I am really impressed with the driving reports. All raving about its handling and feeling. GM has a winner if and only if it doesn’t grasp defeat from the jaws of victory – 300 puny mile range – really.
Apr 15th, 2010 (1:46 pm)You still get the advantages of a hybrid.
-Regen braking.
-All-electric (full torque) acceleration.
-~50Mpg
And, you could still charge at work if plugs are available there.
It wouldn’t be a big leap for parking meters to include charging ports either.
Granted, the immediate advantages are slim compared to a Cruze in this scenario.
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (1:50 pm)We already have a great analogy to work with on this question (not sure if anyone has already pointed this out):
The 1st gen Honda Insight only sat two and looked goofy, which was why it was never adopted by the masses. It was cancelled in 2006 selling only in the hundreds per year. The Prius was way more practical for most people and has been a success. Meanwhile the 2nd gen Honda Insight (2010) was made more practical, and in its first 10 months moved over 20,000 units in the US (starting from March 2009), during one of the tougest markets the auto industry has seen.
What does this tell you? People won’t pay a premium if it comes with a huge inconvenience and a hint of weirdness. The Nissan Leaf can’t do 100 mile round trips without stopping for hours to recharge, and looks goofy. The Volt can do anything a normal car does, and actually looks normal (and even nice). It really is as simple as the extended range advantage. The Leaf’s 100 mile limit is one of the biggest inconveniences I could imagine. Destined to be a niche, only for people and fleets who don’t need much range.
Apr 15th, 2010 (1:56 pm)You underage daughter does not have to stop at a gas station late at night, she refuels at home.. and it guarantees she wont go away to college further than 100 miles
Cars like the LEAF will be popular with the teens
Apr 15th, 2010 (2:07 pm)Most likely Nissan can afford to drop the price a bit more.. the only hope is that Nissan quickly uses up the 200k batch of $7500 tax credits.
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (2:13 pm)You are entirely correct. It is a common theme here that certain rules/comparisons are often only applied to one of the two cars in the attempt to self proclaim superiority” for their Volt.
So take your claim for example. Apartment dwellers and hi rise City dwellers. Both cars have a plug and the advantage is to be able to drive gas free when fully charged. If their domicile lacks the ability to plug in, the advantage of being able to charge at home is gone for BOTH cars. So yes, you will be driving with gas all the time if you have no means to charge. If that is the case then a standard hybrid will more than suffice but they keep trying to push you to an ICE only product for GM because even their newer model Cruze will get higher mileage than GM’s lame hybrid model. But that’s not what you want is it? You want to use as less gas as you can so my direction for anyone in this predicament is to go look at a “Hybrid” that gets more than 42 mpg. What car comes to mind? Not a GM product.
There seems to always be a “skewed” comparison.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (2:15 pm)Good ones! I remember my older brother unhooked the odometer/speedometer in Dad’s ’70 Impala for his teenage cruising evenings, reconnecting it before returning home of course. Not sure if Dad ever caught on. Of course brother had to put a reasonable amount of gas in but what was it, 45 cents/gal then?
the future:
“Young lady, do you realize how many kilowatt-hours you went through tonight?!?”
Apr 15th, 2010 (2:21 pm)No mention of the trim level in the price comparison. What trim level is this Volt they are comparing a $30k Prius?
Prius III = $23,800
Prius IV = $26,600
Prius V = $28,070
http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/trims-prices.html
Again, another “skewed” comparison.
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (2:42 pm)GM learned the hard way with the EV-1. Now, it’s Nissan turn to learn the hard way. I believe there is no way Nissan will sale the number of Leaf as Nissan is predicting.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (2:55 pm)For an “in depth” report on electric cars and what they call “the most anticipated electric car on the planet” (it’s not the Volt), see May 2010 Popular Science. I was very disappointed with PopSci. Seven pages devoted to a mystery car, one 2″x2″ picture of the Volt. Why? Because no one knows much about the $88k mystery car whose debut has been delayed, and delayed, and delayed. Tabloid science journalism. However, when the Volt is about to be shipped, I expect they will make up for their glaring lack of focus on the Volt and what it represents.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (3:14 pm)Lately, the numbers GM has been talking about have been much lower than that. just a couple thousand in 2010, and a few thousand more in 2011. NOT encouraging as it sounds like volume backpedaling. I get the impression they are seriously thinking of pricing it too low to make money so it competes with the leaf on price and then limit production. Which I think would be a disaster. They absolutely need to price it where they don’t feel compelled to limit production. Then the rest of us can vote with our checkbooks and we will see what demand really is.
Any attempt to stop losses by limiting production will fail, anyway, because the dealers will just mark up the price until the demand decreases to meet supply (think back to the Miata launch where there were huge dealer markups for years). The attempt a low pricing is then just a useless gesture bad for everybody.
If Lyle’s informal poll is any indication, there is stomach for a much higher price than the Leaf for the Volt. At least among the initial adopters. After that, they had better focus on reducing the COST and that will be what can lead to price reductions to increase market share.
Apr 15th, 2010 (3:42 pm)Good idea, Noel —let me add my agreement to your suggestion!!!
+2
Apr 15th, 2010 (3:48 pm)Personally, I’d rather slow down, roll down the windows, point, and laugh out loud. Just to make them feel even dumber than they already would.
Apr 15th, 2010 (3:51 pm)Actually, I was thinking about removing the current drivetrain altogether, adding an AC motor to drive the front wheels and place a lithium pack where the current NIMH pack sits now.
That’s why I was looking for wrecked or scrapped Insights. I’d kind of hate to pull out a working hybrid system, even though it’s quickly becoming out of date. I believe with the early Insights, Honda had a battery replacement program as part of it’s built-in warranty. So you see alot of Insights on eBay Motors and Craigslist that have “new” battery packs. Today I found a couple with 158+ thousand miles on them, but still going for over $7500. I’m wondering if mechanicals in the engine would be in pretty good shape in a hybrid since the electric motor does it’s share of the work, but in Honda’s IMA system the pistons and crankshaft rotate/freewheel even when the electric motor is propelling the car…..
I’m not the most mechanical person on Earth, mostly I work on my bicycles… and change my own oil, or do a tune up every now and then. I think I’d have to garner some help from an EV group or even hire a professional company to do the conversion – which would cost over $10,000 I’m sure. So right now, it’s more of a mental exercise – just thinking of the lightness of the vehicle without it’s exhaust system, radiator and ICE — and it’s uber aero – And the challenge of making a BEV that will go 300 miles. If I did it, I sure couldn’t over-think it, or I’d never undertake the challenge.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME.
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:31 pm)Soo many of you here have called the Prius ugly as well. Prius has sold well over 2 million and in 2009 alone over 800,000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius
Those are some “Pretty” numbers for your perceived “Ugly” car.
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:32 pm)Since we don’t know what a 2011 Prius would be, how can it be skewed? It is speculation for both cars since they aren’t in showrooms yet. We can assume that a plug-in 2011 Prius would carry some sort of premium over a 2010 Prius, no?
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:39 pm)Since the US has much lower gas prices, as you point out, what you’re saying is that the price of the EV is prohibitive in the US.
As for fast charging, one legal issue in the US is that state laws generally proscribe the resale of electricity (probably so landlords couldn’t resell etc.). This means that pricing has to be creative.
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:39 pm)It’s an opinion. Everyone has one and everyone’s idea of ‘pretty’ or ‘ugly’ is different.
The observation of ugly doesn’t have anything to do with how many ugly cars are sold. Just because a couple million people like their ugly car doesn’t mean I have to follow their taste.
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:40 pm)Not for a car which is “pretty ugly”!
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:40 pm)Here are a few “social issues” Lyle.. As we debate the cost of the Leaf and VOLT … what are they doing in the no.2 auto market Japan… no one is even thinking about buying a VOLT in Japan because the Japanese government will do the same thing they do with all American cars… put a $20,000 tariff on them… a VOLT in Japan will cost you over $60K …. How many Leaf’s would sell in the US with a tariff of $20K on them?
While we GIVE Nissan $7500 for each electric car … the Japanese will be putting a tariff of $20,000 on each American electric we try to sell in the no.2 auto market Japan.
If we don’t fix this problem …. American mfrs will all go out of business.
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:42 pm)So you’ve noticed it too? I find it disquieting. No, make that disturbing.
-1
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:42 pm)My apologies, I should have pointed out the quote…
“Volt may be more expensive initially, but given that people pay $30,000+ for a Toyota Prius”
Present Tense.
However, there may be a possibility that the 2011 Prius may cost a little more but it will not be a “Next Generation” model. So I would speculate just a few hundred more just for being a next year model.
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:43 pm)I’ll third that. Seems like an absolutely great idea.
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:46 pm)I was thinking more of a Dodge Intrepid for my donor car. They have huge trunks and aero is pretty good too. You can pick one up for between 2 and 4 grand that is in really good shape. They’re a little heavy though.
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:47 pm)I think the analyst left out one very important point. There will be many times more Leafs available to purchase than Volts. So Nissan will win the “popularity” contest, despite loosing the “desirability” contest.
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:49 pm)#37
I dunno, I’ve always thought that they were more like the Toyota troll population. Check out the gems from our old buddy at 108, 110 and 117, for example, LOL.
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:54 pm)Well I guess we disagree then. I expect a 2011 *plug-in* Prius would carry a way higher premium than a *non-plug-in* 2010 model.
If you want to compare a Prius to a Volt, ya need to use the same model year and similar trim levels. Otherwise, ya may skew the results.
Apr 15th, 2010 (4:56 pm)#126
Check out “electric cars” on Ebay. It’s always cheaper to finish up somebody else’s abandoned project than it is to start from scratch yourself. One of the posters on “The Blog Which Shall Remain Nameless” suggested it to me. There is usually some pretty interesting stuff there. I found a factory S-10 electric pickup the other day which really tempted me. Fortunately, good sense took a hand at the last minute, LOL.
-1
Apr 15th, 2010 (5:01 pm)I correlated a value of sales figures to a product many here call “Ugly”.
Many as well as you say the Leaf will fail because the US market won’t buy an “Ugly” car, the Leaf.
You’re presented with empirical data that shows correction and still it’s refuted?
+3
Apr 15th, 2010 (5:05 pm)baltimore17 Says:
Yeah, my next car will be a Volt — especially if GM spins off a sport wagon version.
That made my spine shiver.
Oh GM… Plz plz… do it.
Apr 15th, 2010 (5:15 pm)Hi Statik @ 40.
Sorry, but there is absolutely nothing in your information that is correct. Nothing at all.
All the sales reps at *both* local Austin Chevy Stores very respectfully briefed me at extended length as to exactly what the process is for Volt waiting list members. GM has greatly refined the order process.
No impatience on my part either. When GM says my Volt is being shipped, it is with the exact precision as is a tracking number from UPS. I can find out exactly at what location my Volt is in the shipping process, and, the Time of Arrival at the Chevy Store too.
Necessarily, there are lots of careful steps within the shipping process for my Volt which impresses me a lot.
For me, the *process* of my acquisition of a Volt is just as enjoyable as when I first drove it, mainly because of all the terrific people who post here.
*YOU, of all people, ESPECIALLY NEED TO BE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO DRIVE ONE*.
That ought to be suggested after the day the MSRP is announced.
Apr 15th, 2010 (5:21 pm)Volt MSRP of ~ $36,500 – $7500 (rebate or tax credit?) ~ = Leaf MSRP $25,000 (after $7500) + a few grand (cost of home charge station)
True that?
Apr 15th, 2010 (5:24 pm)I wish I shared your optimism.
Fundamental change tends to happen slowly. I’ve been involved in the IT industry for a long time, long enough to realize that fundamental changes are slow even in IT — the breakneck change that people on the edges of the industry see is merely cosmetic. The Internet was a fundamental change. Windows 7 was not. Cheap ubiquitous fast-charging EVs will require some fundamental changes to the way we build cars and the way we distribute energy in this country — I don’t see it happening in two years, because I haven’t seen any of the behind-the-scenes groundwork being set up. I’d love to be wrong, though.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (5:29 pm)Huh? How are you planning to get across the Sierras? Taking I-80 from Sacramento (elev 25) to Donner pass (elev 7085) and down to Reno (elev 4500) is about 130 miles. I’m sure a Volt could do that with a four gallon tank, even if you started with the battery discharged. I guess if you are talking I-15 from San Diego to Las Vegas it would be close to the advertised Volt range on one tank, but most of that isn’t crossing the Sierras; it’s getting up to LA, through LA (no shortage of refueling infrastructure there!) and across the desert.
There’s no question that either route would defeat the Leaf, but your monster tank wouldn’t help the Volt a bit, just give it slightly more weight and somewhat less interior space.
Apr 15th, 2010 (5:30 pm)Talk about your wrong assumptions! 2 + cars per families, what about all the single people in the world, most of us have only 1 car, why would I buy a second car when 1 will do, as long as I’m not limited to range. Your other assumption is equally wrong, 4 seats for one or 2 people is plenty of room. I haven’t seen the trunk space so I won’t make a mistake and assume anything on that point. How can the Volt be doomed with it’s high price? How much is it, do you know? If so, please tell us because no one else here knows the price yet. You’re also assuming that charging ports will be everywhere in 2 years, how silly is that? You won’t see charging ports everywhere until there are hundreds of thousands of EV’s on the road. I think that 2 years is probably closer to 10 years. But let’s assume for the moment that you correct and there’s charging stations everywhere for my cross country trip as you say. I get in my Leaf, drive fro 100 miles (about 2 hours), then I find one of your charging ports which are everywhere and hang around for 9 hours to get a charge, then drive another 2 hours, charge again for 9, drive for 2, charge for 9….that’s one long trip my friend. So until then I’ll have plenty of trips with my outdated and un-needed range extender.
Apr 15th, 2010 (5:45 pm)You’re both right. The Volt will replace the typical commuter sedan. Cars like BMW, Accord, Altima…. ect.
The Leaf will replace the GEM. Local delivery of small products. Car parts, florists, bakeries, medical samples, parking enforcement … ect. Retirement communities use GEM vehicles for shuttle to local stores and back. Anywhere a quiet, no emission vehicle is needed. Even inside large buildings. Green minded people own the GEM for local use only (I know several).
It’s actually about a 50/50 split when all is added up. Product availability and sticker price may favor the Nissan.
=D-Volt
Apr 15th, 2010 (5:55 pm)Company has applied for a $184 mln DOE loan…
CARLSBAD, Calif., April 15 (Reuters) – The space-age Aptera might look like something straight out of a futuristic cartoon, but executives at the California start-up behind the electric vehicle say its time is now.
Delivering on that promise might be tough.
The company, which delayed production plans because it could not find financing during the 2009 credit crisis, now says it will start production of the car next year.
The Aptera, which has a 100-mile range per charge and gets some 200 miles per gallon equivalent, has three wheels and looks like a sleek, aerodynamic egg. It’s often compared to a vehicle from the futuristic 1960s cartoon “The Jetsons.”
=D-Volt
Apr 15th, 2010 (5:59 pm)The thing about Nissan Leaf and Ghosn is, for me, this: aren’t they counting on huge sales numbers to get their price down for an economy of scale.
But the Leaf has many competitors, from delivery vans like the Ford Transit Connect and the Bright Idea van to BEV commuters like Think City, Coda, Tesla and the rest. Nissan, AFAIK, doesn’t have any special patents that differentiate the Leaf from all its competitors except for some Ghosn braggadoccio and a big-ass loan from Uncle Sam that built a big factory in TN.
But GM has, really, done significant pioneering on the EREV architecture and the only significant competition I see is from Fisker, which isn’t all that significant since Fisker is somewhat upscale in price and doesn’t seem to be going for the mass market like GM and Nissan… yet.
GM has significant patented intellectual property like Toyota has with the HSD Prius architecture, which seems like its value is facing a sunset, IMHO.
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:00 pm)Unless I missed the announcement which is possible, aren’t we still guessing about the price of the Volt? $36,500?
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:02 pm)This doesn’t sound correct to me. It was my understanding that resale is generally legal so long as the seller doesn’t make money out of the sale. As an example, I am sure that there are RV parks which sub-meter and charge to the individual units.
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:02 pm)I really like the look of the Aptera, DaveK. (@139).
It’s really amusing. (Not practical for many, but very amusing nonetheless).
What are they going to sell it for?
I’m sure it doesn’t have A/C, a serious requirement down here in the Purgatory of the Southwest in the Summer. (68 days above 100 degrees here last Summer. OUCH!)
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:10 pm)Yea, $36,500 is still speculation. But not at all out of line from what GM has been hinting at.
And it seems a good target for them if it knocks the competition down for a year or two.
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:12 pm)“US military warns oil output may dip causing massive shortages by 2015″
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/apr/11/peak-oil-production-supply.
“By 2012, surplus oil production capacity could entirely disappear, and as early as 2015, the shortfall in output could reach nearly 10 million barrels per day,” says the report, which has a foreword by a senior commander, General James N Mattis.
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:12 pm)That’s correct, you can resell electricty but not at a profit.
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:17 pm)But then again, after the world as we know it ends on 12-21-12 it won’t make any difference anyway…..LOL
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:31 pm)Not true. I see a $5K difference based on your assumptions.
I could argue that 240V charging is as useful for one car as for the other if you drive them the same number of miles. Either car can use it; neither car has to have it. But I’ll be nice and let you have it only for the Leaf since the Leaf driver can’t supplement at the gas station. So, here is my calculation for California:
Volt MSRP of $36,500 – $7500 (tax credit) – $3000 (Cal rebate) + $400 = $26,400
Leaf MSRP of $32,780 – $7500 (tax credit) – $5000 (Cal rebate) + $1100 = $21,380
The +$400 on the Volt is for extra tax/license charges due to higher MSRP
The +$1100 on the Leaf covers total cost of charging dock and installation by AeroVironment, after 50% US rebate.
Note that the Cal rebate is different for the two vehicles because the Leaf has no gasoline engine.
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:33 pm)The Volt and the Leaf are the two real shows in town. Everything else is a niche vehicle either because of price (Tesla) or because of design, limited production, and lack of dealer support (Coda).
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:35 pm)While the CA rebate is theoretically available, there isn’t actually any funding for it so it can be safely ignored.
Apr 15th, 2010 (6:51 pm)#135 Itching4it: I was referring to a posting I made Tues. There I posed a drive from SF to Reno as 219 miles. The drive from Sacramento to Reno is 135 miles. (Driving distance) Yep. Sacramento is 25 ft elev. I’ve driven I-80/50 a lot. And over last Christmas I did I-15 over the The Tehachapis. That drive actually from Alameda first time in too many years. Now Auburn (Cal.) is 1350 ft. elev.
Which as you know, (I think) is at the foot of the Sierras. Now remember, we’re just getting underway. That’s about a 35 minute drive – up. Now we’ll be on ER real fast. Check me on this: VOLT is designed for EV at 40 miles at 40 mph. But let’s be conservative and say 30 mph. No matter how you cut it VOLT would be lucky to make Auburn on EV and that’s at the foot of the Sierras. Coming back down – sure – no problem. It would be a lot of regen.
So the question is: Could VOLT make it from Auburn to Reno on ER? Hard to say. Be close. I say it would have to be perfect weather – dry pavement. No wind. Now if VOLT ends up with an 8 galoon tank – that should handle most non-snowy weather. (I’ve heard GM is not releasing the tank size so this is all speculation). But from SF – no way.
(6 G tank) However, I’ve not counted regen on the down side. A complex model. So you could be right after all.
-2
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:06 pm)Buddy, you probably should’ve just said “See, the Prius is ugly but it sold XXX,XXX cars….”
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:08 pm)Well, I suppose you are right in one sense. There is funding right now, for FY2009-10, but you can’t buy either a Volt of a Leaf right now. There is no approved funding yet for FY2010-11, but then even the Highway Patrol doesn’t have that funding yet, because the state hasn’t passed a budget yet.
So, let’s forget about California and say with Volt45′s assumptions it’s a $3K difference in most places, and more in some (like maybe $8K in Georgia?).
-3
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:11 pm)That aint gonna happen. Nobody, I MEAN NOBODY has identical trim levels. They always try to out do each other by “blah blah blah comes standard….”
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:27 pm)But the patents, the intellectual property: Isn’t Nissan vulnerable? AFAIK, there are no technical differences between a Nissan and say, a Ford Focus. Is it the structural advantage that will carry them forward, that is, their in-house battery supply? Will it keep market share up for them in the future?
Because GM has the patents on EREV (and I don’t know what the legal situation is vis-a-vis Fisker… that is, is Fisker to GM’s patents as Ford was to Toyota’s?) and it seems like they can own that space in a way similar to Toyota owning the hybrid space, and then they can still enter the BEV space, too. Nissan can jump out, maybe, to an impressive market share in the BEV space, but it seems like it might be a fragile dominance. And then they will not be able to enter the EREV space like GM (and Ford et al) can enter the BEV space.
Apr 15th, 2010 (7:27 pm)Where are the opinions of women? I want a volt, my boss, who is female, wants a leaf. It’s just “cuter” she says.
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:27 pm)It isn’t difficult to research the initial plans for chargers in the first areas the Leaf will be offered for sale. Sir Francis Bacon is quoted as saying knowledge is power, though I’m basically just looking for information in areas I find interesting. Though I do agree that people who just use the car occasionally or for short jaunts will likely only be using 240 volt chargers located at home. In fact research shows that EV drivers to date use one or a few familiar chargers at set points and don’t often seek out other charge points.
At this point though I’m not willing to say that my impression will have anything to do with what actually develops as other propulsion options are adopted. That would be lame.
-7
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:37 pm)What a cop out bullshit exclusion. That other guy was right. All you do here is make dumb ass comparisons just to justify this loser of a company and lame products. Why not completely exclude any rebates if you need to make any price comparison. Oh yeah, you can’t because it shows the true over price of this piece of shit.
What a bunch of wack jobs here.
Lame bastards.
+1
Apr 15th, 2010 (8:47 pm)Weren’t some of the revenues from oil being funneled to Bin Laden to set up permanent camp in Afghanistan to attack the US with complete approval from the ruling Taliban? Volt, Leaf, or electric moped —- just sell it as soon as possible.
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:02 pm)Dan you’re awesome on tech matters…but I’m from Missouri when it comes to Volt logistics.
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:03 pm)I agree. The reason oil affects foreign policy is because it’s valuable, and always has been, since before WWII. Valuable oil = our own dollars used against us. We don’t “invade” countries to “get” their oil: why did the price of gas spike to new heights before the election in this conspiratorial scenario?
We are forced to act as our oil dollars are used against us.
Make oil less valuable ==> fewer oil dollars available to be used against us ==> less effect on our foreign policy ==> more security for the western world and insulation from the caprices of dictators.
Apr 15th, 2010 (9:35 pm)My 1975 Monza took 4 months to arrive after the order was placed because they couldn’t get enough spacesaver tires to the assembly plant they told me.
My 1982 Trans Am took took 4 months to arrive after the order was placed because either the rear disc brakes or the CrossFire fuel injected V-8 started production late they told me.
My 1993 Saturn SW2 wagon took 4 months to arrive after the order was placed because they had problems with the hatch assembly at the start of production they told me.
My 2003 Pontiac Vibe only took 2.5 months to arrive after the order was placed. Maybe it was the monochrome paint job. I dunno. They didn’t tell me anything.
All those cars were first year production. Expect to wait months to get your Volt as GM works out the supply chain once full-scale production starts. Four months would be my guess.
I have lots of experience being patient. It’s not so bad.
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:07 pm)I really have no idea about the patents. You obviously can’t patent the idea of an EREV since those have been around for a long time but GM doubtless filing a lot of patents. Many of those will be related to production and to electronics. However, outside outside biotech patents haven’t proven to be a huge barrier to competition.
Apr 15th, 2010 (11:11 pm)As an FYI to readers there is funding for a maximum of 820 rebates for 2010, unless there are rebate requests for trucks which qualify for a $20K rebate. Not a lot of rebates given that many vehicles qualify.
Apr 16th, 2010 (12:40 am)I suspect that many would relate to software.
What will be interesting for GM is to document that the idea they are patenting was thought of before it was suggested here on the fan site!
I can think of some examples; like the idea of killing or limiting power when moving or stopped. Or using the engine as a brake once the battery reaches 100% so regenerative braking remains.
+1
Apr 16th, 2010 (1:23 am)I comment here regularly and positively whenever I can. But I think the supporters of Volt and the electrification of transport should know that we have strong negative forces attempting to destroy these efforts. And they come from unfortunate sources of naysayers. Like National Public Radio, financed entirely by taxpayers and donations. NPR runs programs claiming there is nothing being done about “climate change.” Huh?? WTF?? Dudes, get your scrawny as ses on the millions of green web pages all over the net. Look at the progress being made in EV battery technology, supercaps, fuel efficiency, low carbon fuels, biofuels, synthetics, wind, solar, wave, nuke, etc. etc. etc.
Some of us out here on the edge have faith and belief that we CAN address the energy crisis, we can move to alternative green fuels, we CAN electrify transportation. What we don’t need from the self-righteous gaia-ites is this whining and moaning and weeping all over the media. Get a CLUE whiners! There IS progress being made and if you cannot support that progress and encourage it to continue – prepare to lose the dedicated few who ARE DOING SOMETHING EVERY DAY that positively addresses your precious “climate change.”
i.e. NPR, get off your desultory, gloom and whine racist assignment and try a little POSITIVE THINKING FOR A CHANGE. How bout running a series on the GOOD things going GREEN these days??? How bout a regular feature on the POSITIVE effect of those who cut fossil fuels?? How about doing some GD POSITIVE reinforcement for once in your broadcast life??
I’m sick of your crap gloomers. Sorry to be blunt.
Thank you Volt Team, EV builders around the world and all people believing electrification is a creative, productive step toward ending the use of fossil fuel and um… cutting carbon emissions. That is what you want isn’t it? So when it comes your way how about not pi ssing all over it?? Try it NPR… you’ll be surprised.
Apr 16th, 2010 (1:37 am)With gas prices hovering just below $3 a gallon and the Fed’s talking about adding another 15 cents per gallon it just makes more and more sense to buy a Volt. Right now the down turned economy has reduced the pressure on oil prices a bit but if we ever get back to normal employment levels the demand for oil will shoot up and so will the price. That’s when the demand for the Volt will hit its full stride. I would estimate 2012 when the Earth and planets align with the center of the Galaxy.
Apr 16th, 2010 (10:30 am)You are certianly entitled to your opinion and I respect that, and I truly hope your post order experience (if you do order one) is a pleasant one.
All I know is how the system has worked of late on the Camaro and past ‘new models’, as well as my own personal experience with the new Equinox, the last gen Trans Am, and the STS. I had a little info and was passing it along, I don’t look to stir anything up in the comments anymore, thats why I make myself scarce. I just thought it might be of some help. Sorry if you seen that as a afront.
All the best!
Sidenote: I have been given the opportunity to drive it
Apr 16th, 2010 (4:26 pm)Right Donc.
JC
Apr 16th, 2010 (5:58 pm)Statik,
If you’ve been given an opportunity to drive the Volt, I’m puzzled to not know if you did actually drive it or not. If not and the opportunity was an easily available distance to go to do a drive, then that really causes me to wonder about a lot of things from a possibly additional perspective regarding objectivity if you turned down a readily and easily available opportunity.
/just a little puzzled, that’s all.
Apr 17th, 2010 (4:37 am)Oh good! More EV LEAFS to go around!
GO EV !!!
Apr 17th, 2010 (9:24 am)Don’t forget ZENN… Oops, even Zenn has forgotten… But the Zennergy EEStor unit will be making all this nonsense about range anxiety and batteries a moot point soon… 2008, 09, 10 hmmmm LOL
Apr 17th, 2010 (10:33 am)/I’m a puzzling guy
I really don’t mix it up in the comments anymore, I felt I was too distruptive to the spirit of the threads, but ever since Lyle brought me on board I stop by from time to time if I feel have some information that might not be common knowledge/useful.
Again, I did not intend/envision any kind of confrontation with you, for any impression of that I apologize. I will endeavor to stay away from your comments entirely in the future if I do happen to drop in.
Regards,
Stat
As for my objectivity, obviously it is a oxymoron to attempt to validate your own objectivity.
I do feel mine is biased in the sense that I have drawn the proverbial line in the sand when it comes to the ‘electrification of personal transportation’ as the answer to the ICE vehicle. It (EVs-BEV or EREV) may well indeed not be ready and/or not be the best solution in the long run to the market at large.
Past that however, and in this one instance only (electrification of the automobile) I can say that I have no loyalties to any one automaker, domestic or foreign in this regard.
I support any advancement/projects/statements in this area that I feel are legitimate and pass the litmus test of common sense based against all the facts (current and historical) available to me at the time. Somedays that means calling a automaker into question about something, and other days it means patting them on the back.
/I do know if you can’t do both, you are not being objective
Apr 17th, 2010 (3:10 pm)That’s funny.
The Nissan LEAF people are fully positive about the Volt and just want the business model of electric cars to prosper and grow. They don’t get all competitive and prickly about it. Most of the people I met at the Seattle LEAF event felt the same way.
But there seems to be a lot of negativity and misgiving here — if not outright misrepresentation. That’s a shame.
I won’t get a GM no matter what. They destroyed the EV-1 when they had a chance to develop this market two decades ago and put all of their resources into the SUV. I was pretty peeved after seeing “Who Killed the Electric Car.”
After we get a LEAF here in Seattle, we’ll be putting up solar panels to charge it. Far from being in the suburbs, we are inner city neighborhood people who already bike and bus commute to work. We’ll keep our VW Golf that runs on biodiesel and is fully paid off for any cross-country driving we may need to do in the next couple of years.
Once the infrastructure is built up, we’ll get rid of the Golf or upgrade to the next ZEV upgrade technology and use it exclusively.
See you on the road…
Apr 17th, 2010 (11:16 pm)There is more to life besides commuting. I am one of the suburban commuters with a 50 mile commute, second (or 5th) car and 2 car garage that would presumably benefit from a leaf, but I would never buy a car with a 100 mile range.
There are many days when I start out on my 50 mile commute and I get a phone call that sends me on a 100 mile detour. If you live in a major metropolitan area, 100 miles is not enough to cover my daily driving. If you live in Houston, you know what I’m talking about, I drove north 140 miles today.
I have a friend who is green as Ed Begley Jr. and he could walk to work he’s so close, and he said he would not buy a leaf. His reason is that it’s untested and he doesn’t want to pay $32K to be a beta tester. So I wonder beyond a few early adopters who will buy the leaf? The Volt requires none of these considerations.
Apr 18th, 2010 (2:55 pm)Statik,
Driving it is objective. In this highly unusual and special case of Volt, not driving it can’t trump driving it, no matter how many other considerations are presented. I don’t take anything anyone says personally if I think they are inexperienced with something.
Driving it is experience. That particular experience can not be anything else.
I had just been attempting to see if there would be something practical in common to talk with you about; A driving experience.
I try to understand how you seem to always have some adversity of expression that somehow goes unfulfilled or unsatisfied, which keeps peoples’ guard up at least somewhat. Perhaps you do not wish to talk about getting a test drive experience of Volt, that’s fine. You always seem to have this undercurrent of anger or contempt, which is your right to express. But sometimes if one views things from only that perspective, it colors viewpoints excessively toward a blended understanding only from within those perspectives.
When there’s post at the top of a thread, I will bring a contribution of experience as many find this helpful, and, I would believe that it would compliment or enhance themes presented. As well, many of my posts are directed toward advanced auto technical historical systems characteristics as reminders for the GM engineering pros (esp. the new ones), which contributions I regard as my technical contributions to electrification. It is the very best thing I can do for everyone.
(Sometimes, my process of compilation gets “zapped”/erased (rightly) before I hit the submissions button, because the timing of a technical comment would not be helpful toward electrification, (likely an issue in the process of electrification work-through), and ought not be discussed yet. I get surprised at the “zap”, but not affronted, and start over and double my efforts to work really hard in an attempt to understand what was the thing to improve upon or avoid.).
So, for the above content regarding all those other different GM named models you apparently had all kinds of repeated/repeat-customer expectational discontent with as a warning to me, well, all I had to simply say in response is that my experience with the two local dealers here was expectationally-excellent.
People we talk to at a dealership (and everywhere else) immediately pick up on ***any*** trace of subtle negative expectation or philosophy, especially when there is this huge expenditure being talked about. If you are deeply positive, deeper positive results received for the same money shrewdly spent increasingly prevail.
If you are deeply negative, increasingly higher chances of not-as-positive results prevail for the same money shrewdly spent.
My positive experience is different, true, and valid, but not whatsoever would I think for anyone to say I was affronted, which I certainly never am for the sharing of positive things. Just a different experience that is true for me.
Businesses don’t stay in business if they don’t constantly improve and change to remain competitive, which is a (forced if anything) “happening” clearly here for GM. (As well, we don’t remain employed unless we constantly improve and update our viewpoints and skill-sets).
I really love this GM-Volt.com site, because people work intellectually-hard to compose content with truly deep thinking (not deep emotional feelings-based, but hard-worked-logically-helpful facts) are involved with this site, especially when the positive (or not as positive) objective facts are the primary content about technology is shared.
Sure our differences are technological, but I was just searching for a point-of-reference for commonality within a possible driving experience opportunity for you, of Volt, an experience that I still think you ought to go ahead with as soon as possible.
Apr 18th, 2010 (6:27 pm)Its all good Dan., (=
/catch up with you on the next one
Apr 19th, 2010 (9:03 am)I see $42k thrown around a LOT, but I don’t think that’s been decided. If anything the last GM statement said below $40k.
If anyone that’s throwing that number has any sources please list them.
Since it hasn’t been officially released I’d bet that nobody knows yet. I think it’s probably an issue being debated still in the head offices of the Volt program.
For all we know they could offer the Volt at $1 below the Leaf.