Honda CR-Z
In the early days after the Volt concept was first unveiled, Honda stood out as being particularly hesitant to embrace the idea of electric cars. In fact their CEO at the time, Takeo Fukui, went on record saying he saw “no value in developing plug-in cars.” He also publicly disparaged the Volt concept calling it “a battery electric vehicle equipped with an unnecessary fuel engine and fuel tank.”
By Spring 2009 he had completely changed his tune when he made the announcement of a lithium-ion battery joint venture with GS Yuasa. In the fall of 2009 Honda unveiled their very own city car EV concept.
Now according to anonymous sources the company is testing its own extended range electric car design.
Honda has so far largely put its resources into developing hybrids. Last year they brought the second-generation Insight to market. The $20,000 car is small, slow and offers lackluster driving experience. Along with a mild hybrid design and 40 mpg|41 mpg EPA fuel economy, sales numbers have been low, only about 25% of the 100,000 per year in North America that Honda projected. Coming in just around $2000 less than a 50 MPG more powerful base Prius hasn’t helped either.
Honda is now releasing a new hybrid sports coupe called the CR-Z which has already sold 10,000 copies in its first month in Japan. It is not available in the US yet. Those sales figures are surprising in that the car is a 2-seater with a 122 hp engine, only does 0 to 6 in 8.3 seconds and obtains 36 mpg city | 38 mpg highway using a 1.5L mild hybrid IMA system with a continuously variable transmission. Honda executives were unsure if it was worth building at all.
Now according to inside sources, Honda is already developing a higher power next generation CR-Z, and of particular interest to us, an EREV drivetrain. The next gen CR-Z would utilize a 2.5L 4 cylinder engine with mild IMA hybridization, and offer improved performance as well as four seats.
The EREV drivetrain employs a gas engine and electric motor and is said by the insider to be intended for use in medium to large passenger cars as well as SUVs. The design is said to contain a third capacitor-based range extending component:
Honda would employ an engine and electric motor setup, which, when all the stored electricity is used, would automatically switch to an on-board capacitor that would further extended its range.
The drivetrain is apparently set to first appear in the next generation Accord.
If this report is true it would be very substantial, as it represents the first major carmaker other than GM planning to offer an EREV as a high volume mainstream vehicle.
Source (MotorTrend)
+24
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:30 am)THis post brings to mind the old saying: “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.”
The growing number of companies that are developing ER-EV drivetrains is that action that speaks louder than any amount of words about the relative merits of BEVs (at least, at this point in battery tech) vs. serial hybrids.
And if this report is true, it’s heartening to see an American company out front, and Japan following our lead.
I picture Lutz with his checklist: “Leapfrog the competition in hybrid technology — DONE!
+11
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:42 am)“…when all the stored electricity is used, would automatically switch to an on-board capacitor that would further extended its range.”
EEStor lives!!
+5
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:46 am)Honda changing it’s mind? I don’t think so. The Japanese are very secretive and don’t want anyone to know in advance on what they are working on. That way, they look a lot smarter when they do come out with something new because it looks like it took less time to build…..a completely different strategy than from GM.
I think they were trying to discourage GM from building the Volt when GM first started.
+8
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:51 am)Hope the Leaf is a big hit. Followed by the Volt and Focus EV. Don’t feel that China will break sales records with the BYD. But Honda is sure to do very well in the battery car market. Get these cars shipped to dealership lots so we can buy them.
=D-Volt
+23
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:58 am)This is really good news for consumers.
Competition tends to bring prices down.
The more the merrier.
Thank you, Mr. Lutz. Your idea seems to have put the world on track towards cutting our dependence on oil.
+8
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:02 am)More vaporware.
Anybody can announce that they are building something. It’s also easy to do an ‘artist rendering’ vs building something in steel.
I’m from Missouri (literally). Sho-me the car!
+44
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:25 am)I wonder if Honda will only build 10K cars the first year????
FYI – That was a direct hint to GM to open up the plant and get the Volt out in volume!!!!
We WANT to buy American! – Don’t force us to buy foreign………..
Have Plug – Ready For EREV
+4
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:25 am)Off topic. Is anyone having trouble voting on comments when using Firefox?
I am using Firefox 3.6.3
Thanks
Loboc: +1 one to you, I just can’t get it to work. Sorry.
+13
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:27 am)I sense subterfuge. Sorry to say it, but I do. GM is (figuratively) hours from selling their first EREV, and a major competitor just happens to “leak” that they are thinking of putting out an EREV, but wait, it’s better, because it uses a (deep gasp of amazement) capacitor. See, Honda knows that the Volt might just hurt sales of…what’s that you say…the ACCORD?
Nah, can’t be.
Sorry to be cynical, but that’s what it looks like.
Like the man said…show me. I might not believe even if you do…but show me anyway.
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:38 am)Good to see Honda joining the E-REV club (if true). The whole E-REV market is wide open (other than the segment to be filled by the Volt).
Glad to see automakers in general stop fighting mpg improvements and embracing them. Ford’s 2011 Mustang now bests the Chevy Camaro in mpg, with 31 highway from the V-6. Looking forward to Chevy’s response.
+7
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:40 am)It would also be a breakthrough if Honda Motors modeled their development of this in an open manner just as GM has done for the last four years. Indeed, this process for GM has been a very breathtaking form of public education of the most imperative type for philosophical change.
Yuasa Battery Manufacturing is an exceptionally fine manufacturer of batteries. When I was stationed in Okinawa (circa 1975 & 1976), I had purchased a 1967 Toyota Corolla to get around in for that 15 months, and, that Yuasa battery really held up exceptionally well with all the electrical faults (from the relentless humidity there, not the design of the Toy), and, the corrosion (from the ever-present salty air) impeded the efficiencies of the charging system.
But if true regarding an entire family of EREV’s within the Honda lineup, that would be the
“last straw” for all the other OEM’s to “wake up and smell the freshly-brewed coffee”.
Once again, congratulations to GM for changing the world, because I think it likely true regarding Honda and EREV’s. (After all, Honda **DOES** make the very quietest and finest little portable generators on the planet!! You don’t know they are running until you are close enough to nearly stumble over them!!).
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:41 am)Hi Rashiid,
Got the +1 covered for you.
+17
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:06 am)This is a much overdue progression of Honda’s hybrid tech. They have never been able to compete effectively with the Prius for city mileage, though their hybrids typically do better on the highway. They’ve been approaching the whole hybrid concept as a way to add torque to a really tiny and efficient engine good for steady state cruising (not acceleration).
Honda may appear to be behind in many areas at first glance, but don’t underestimate them. They have longer term experience with electric drivetrains (EV+) and already have a EREV type architecture on the road with lithium batteries called the FCX Clarity. Replace the fuel cell stack with a gasoline generator and hey! Would you look at that.
Ultimately, competition (last minute or not) can only help the consumer with better technology at a lower price point. I’m excited to see what is coming our way in the next few years and I’ll cheer on any company brave enough (and possessing enough foresight) to bring electric and extended electric vehicles to market!
-1
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:15 am)Maybe someday there will be a company doing that so we can start cheering.
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:15 am)“Honda would employ an engine and electric motor setup, which, when all the stored electricity is used, would automatically switch to an on-board capacitor that would further extended its range.”
_____________
I wonder if that means:
Once the stored electricity from the Lithium pack is used up, the car employs a capacitor (effectively taking the lithium pack out of the loop) to serve a a “buffer zone”, absorbing the high cycle count needed to fill in during CS mode.
?
+14
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:26 am)“The $20,000 car is small, slow and offers lackluster driving experience. Along with a mild hybrid design and 40 mpg|41 mpg EPA fuel economy”
Honda can stop building that car when the Cruze comes out.
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:30 am)Does the FCX carry batteries that are charged by the fuel cell?? I thought the fuel cell fed directly to the electric motor??
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:30 am)I could see a couple of benefits from this setup (vs the Volts).
1. A higher CS mode mpg could be attained because they aren’t worried about cycling out the main battery, the genset could run at a fixed rpm for longer times utilizing a bigger wh buffer zone which would allow for more efficient operation of the ICE.
2. Improved main pack life, because:
a. the buffer zone cycling is eliminated
b. chances of a bad charging event are greatly reduced, the main pack only receives a charge when the car is plugged in (and the car not running, of course).
/ not to mention that if there IS a bad charging event during CS mode,… all you’ve done is smoked the capacitor. R&R the relatively small/cheap capacitor (and correct the fault, of course) and you’re back in business. In the Volt, 16kwh of expensive lithium are always in the loop and always at risk.
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:33 am)Interesting thought. I wonder what BillR thinks? Batteries and EEstore??
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:39 am)Maybe you are right but Caps cannot store much energy(until the EESTOR miracle happens) – maybe they will just have some really big filter capacitors.
New capital EV competitors are happy news for EV fans. Energy independence for all seems to be on the horizon. These are hopeful times. Energy freedom leads to an entirely different world than the one we’ve known.
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:42 am)Yes what you say makes good sense. Bigger battery buffer zone would also allow complete shut down of the ICE at freeway speeds. Right now speculation is that at speeds higher than around 55 MPH the Volt ICE runs constantly.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:52 am)The CR-Z to me, as stated in the article, is an embarassment for Honda. It seats two, it’s only marginally quicker 0-60 than the Volt, you can’t plug it in, and the mileage is pathetic, being how aerodynamic and light the car appears to be. Add that to the lackluster reception in the marketplace of the new Insight 4 door ( Prius clone ) and Honda has got to pull something viable
out of their collective hats to show they can.
Their hydrogen fuel cell car tooling around Los Angelas is just vaporware IMO. Sure it shows they’re capable of big things, but can they pull off a Volt competitor that does as much, as good, for a competitive price in a reasonable amount of time? We shall see, but the evidence out there so far says the Volt has nothing to worry about for the foreseeable future. By the time this rumored Accord hits dealerships there should be 50-60,000 GM EREVS on the road ( at least! ), and a five-seater or SUV version near completion.
I live in Seattle so the best analogy I can find of GM losing it’s headstart would be Boeing Aircraft Corporation. Remember how they aced their main competitor Airbus Industries by revealing their answer to expensive jet fuel, the 787 Dreamliner? Airbus was caught with their pants down, with nothing to compete with a composite jetliner with unprecidented efficiency…..well, until Boeing uncharacteristically fell 2 years behind in it’s development allowing Airbus to design it’s A350, the Dreamliner’s future competitor – nearly a clone of the 787. Airbus says it’s a bit over one year from flight testing!!!! Meanwhile the first 787s are flight testing ( FINALLY! ) but they poked along and may have lost their strategic advantage. They have already lost several of their depositors who just could not wait any longer!
Recently I spoke to a Boeing employee about these billion dollar losses and Airbus’s gains, and they replied, “Oh we’re not worried!” – kind of like Alfred E. Newman, I presume?!!
All-in-all competition will turn up the heat and stoke the EREVolution. Come on GM, sell me a Volt!
Alfred E. Newman should worry – HE’S A DORK!
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
+3
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:00 am)GM-Chevy needs a cool looking 2-seater Voltec car with 100 miles AER. Let’s call it the “Chevy Nomad”.
+3
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:07 am)At least Boeing hasn’t been flying 787s around the world for the last year, wondering if they should build it or not!
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:11 am)L
L — Hey now! — Measure twice, cut once! Right?
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:12 am)no trouble with fire fox but IE 7 still messed up.. I am switching between the 2 for different sites.
still not liking IE8 as some older pages do not load properly.
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:14 am)“Honda would employ an engine and electric motor setup, which, when all the stored electricity is used, would automatically switch to an on-board capacitor that would further extended its range.”
I sincerely hope whoever spoke these words misspoke…I hope instead of “capacitor”, he/she really meant “generator”. Otherwise it truly shows the lack of understanding and expertise within Honda with respect to energy storage, packaging efficiency, and EREV design.
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:17 am)Make sure Firefox has Javascript checked under tools, options, content.
+3
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:23 am)Honda can obviously build an EV. The FX Clarity is an EV and it shows how advanced Honda’s EV technology is. From all reports it has great handling and great performance. And smooth. But an EREV? Different animal. Even when the winds of change are strong Japanese companies do not move quickly. I wouldn’t be holding my breadth though the fact is that of all the car companies Honda should have the most experience with, and the best technology for, generators. They’ve made a few.
But if GM gets a move on and starts producing EREVs in larger numbers it will dominate the sector. What percentage of the hybrid market does the Insight have in NA? What percentage does the Prius have? If GM plays it too timid it will end up where Honda is in the hybrid space.
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:24 am)3.6.3 is still downloading. Not having problems with 3.6.2 on XP or IE8 on Win7.
(Thanks for the +1
)
+5
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:35 am)Good point. The Cruze is larger, will have better 0-60 numbers and gets the same MPG as the insight. That is a no brainer if you ask me.
I was at the Columbus Ohio Auto show last month and they had no information on the Cruze. Only that it would cost more then the Cobalt which starts at $13,000. Gee thanks for the bomb shell. I am guessing GM is going to announce the Cruze and Volt pricing at the same time. Starting price $16,000 and $36,000 respectively.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:42 am)I never had any problems posting or editing on this site when I used Win XP and IE 6, or 7. When I got my new computer, Win 7, IE 8 I’ve had nothing but trouble. Editing posts was near impossible. And every single time I posted or went elsewhere on the site – Gallery or Videos, it froze solid.
Now with Firefox ( latest iteration ) everything is working fantastic!
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:48 am)Yes, I am having issue with 3.6.3. I can click the vote and it gives me the message (Vote registered or whatever), BUT, when I refresh (hit F5); the vote count doesn’t go up.
I tried on several including the original to this message, so, I’m pretty sure that someone isn’t offsetting me with a neg vote.
Edit: but when I completely exit Firefox and go back in, it looks like the votes are showing up. Weird.
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:50 am)Although the FCX Clarity is not a plug in vehicle, it does have a battery on board to act as a buffer for power demand, and store energy from regen braking. Fuel Cell EVs are by nature closer to EREVs than BEVs.
Don’t forget that GM has been just as heavily into fuel cells as Honda, and has just as much (if not more) experience with EVs from the EV-1 era. I believe GM still has more fuel cell vehicles on the road than Honda, though someone may correct me. Toyota has had an active fuel cell program for many years as well.
Designing an EREV has been a challenge for GM, despite all of this experience. I expect it would be an equivalent challenge for Honda as well. However, since Honda is not being nearly as open about it’s design and engineering process as GM has, we have no idea what they have been working on or for how long.
The more the merrier. Competition is good.
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:51 am)No problem with voting on comments, except that it takes awhile to see the correct current “score” after the “thanks for voting” acknowledgment.
The one problem I still have viewing GM-volt.com with Firefox 3.6.3, is that it won’t display my personal data in the Want List. I can view it in IE8. This started when the site had the major redesign several weeks back. All the other initial problems seem to have been fixed.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:53 am)The full gasser Cruze gets 40 mpg on the city cycle? Really? That’s very hard to believe when this year’s Aveos get only 25 or 27 mpg city cycle.
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:58 am)I believe this is normal for everyone. As I said in #35, it just takes awhile. If you refresh the page after a few minutes, even without exiting, it changes. So I just go back later and see what is says. Sometimes I forget and vote on the same one, then it says, “you already voted.”
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:00 am)Fun Facts.
2 seater hybrid CR-Z gets 38 mpg highway and has lackluster performance.
Mid 80s CRX (non-hybrid simple design) gets equivalent of 51mpg highway by todays standards.
I wonder what it would cost to produce the old 80s CRX if the Govt would relax the saftey standards and let this type of “death trap” back on the road. With its lack of modern gizmos and accouterments, this thing could probably be sold for a profit for under $10,000. That would be cool. A brand new 51 mpg car for less than $10K.
Is the Govt. saving us from ourselves by making cars safer and more costly assuming we are too stupid to understand risk or are they just adding regulations to cars that make them less efficient?
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:01 am)Yes. Honda can build an EV. They can build a rolling test lab ( The FX Clarity ). Far too expensive and complex to mass-market in it’s present form. Sure, they can use it as a template for an EREV. They can build top-drawer generators, that’s for sure, and Howie says they do these better than Chevy does….
Rumor has it GM is secretly readying a plug-in mower with an extended range generator
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:05 am)Refer to the post on this site for March 28, 2011 Chevrolet Cruze Eco. It is rated for 40mpg *Highway.* Other models of the 2011 Cruze do not get as good mileage as the Eco.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:16 am)Its working okay for me, but I’m using v3.5.9 – I threw 3.6 back after I had issues with it launching but not being visible on initial opening (forcing me to kill it and relaunch) and was about to give it another try (probably will wait a while longer…).
+3
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:17 am)I say the demand is there for the Volt. GM and this site have done a great job providing information and generating interest about the car. Let us hope the new GM has learned from the past and brings the Volt to market with enough cars to satisfy demand. GM has the advantage and cannot afford to be like Boing and fritter away their lead. I believe GM should be ready to run 24-7 production to meet the expected demand (if the price is right). AND if 25% of the new car buyers are ready for an electric car then GM should be the one to meet that demand with this car. I intend to be one of those buyers. :+}
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:18 am)Indeed. But I’m not so certain this openness from GM re: the Volt development is not, in most respects, their attempt at mending the deep sores inflicted and dire reputation they gained by the EV-1 debacle.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:19 am)It is on now. Bring it, Honda!
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:23 am)You are correct on both counts, it has a lithium ion battery because the Fuel Cell doesn’t provide enough oomph for all out acceleration (if memory serves), and it catches regenerative braking power (not sure if that can go into the fuel cell or not).
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:24 am)More to the point, the openness was intended to give GM a get out of jail free card if the Volt project failed. By being more open, if the Volt ended up being a flop, then they could say “Look, we did our best!”, and unlike with the EV1, the public would hopefully understand and forgive. I remember Bob Lutz saying something to that effect a while back.
If the Volt is a smashing success, I expect we can look back on GM’s openness with the rose-couloured classes of history, and say that it was a way to “mend the sores” from the ill-handed EV1.
In any case, I don’t expect the current development openness to extend beyond the Volt. It may possibly even end with the Volt Gen 1. Still, it’s been a cool ride so far.
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:25 am)Yes..and your picture of Bob Lutz is now a classic, it’s already three years old.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:37 am)The CR-Z isn’t a bad looking little car. Kind of sporty. Gets me nostalgic thinking about the bright red CRX I owned in the ’80s-’90s. I used it as a commuter and ( shame on u Honda ), it got about the same mileage without the hybrid drivetrain. I also had many experiences where friends had to take their cars or people had to stay home because I couldn’t fit them in the car. It lasted a few years until, at 70,000 the transaxle had a fatal factory flaw ( one dealers admitted wasn’t rare ). In the end I sold it with a whining, wailing sound emanating from the trans, to a guy who was willing to spend nearly what the car was worth to fix it. All-in-all, the two Hondas I have owned ( Prelude, CRX ) were mixed bags – fun to drive for fwd cars, but disappointments in that they were reliable for a few years, but showed their weaknesses with wear and tear.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:39 am)I expect Airbus to also have delays. Just because they said that the flight testing will start a year from now doesn’t mean it actually will.
Besides, the airline sales seems to me to be more about political manuevering and where you buy your components and how much you’re willing to outsource than who has the best product.
-4
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:42 am)My question was on city mileage. Thanks for avoiding the question.
The current bar is at 51 mpg city for full hybrids and 40 mpg city for weak hybrids (see CR-Z) .
How does the Cruze (plain or Eco) compare with that, since other posters on this site raised that question?
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:51 am)??????
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:52 am)George, I thought that a fairly aerodynamic car like the Volt would only need at most about 25 hp to cruise at 60 mph and around 40 hp to cruise at 70 mph. If the generator puts out 71 hp max, wouldn’t the software program the genset to cycle on and off to get the best mileage possible? I would imagine the most efficient sweet spot for the ICE is somewhere between 35 and 45 hp, so it would seem that even with conversion loss, driving at 65 mph would allow the genset to cycle on and off, giving pretty decent hwy mileage. I am hoping CS mileage of 46 to 50 mpg in town or on the highway at 65 mph won’t be too difficult to achieve.
Interesting days.
-6
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:56 am)City cycle mileage for Cruze? Well….?
+5
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:01 am)Just for a little reference, Honda was brought, very reluctantly to the EV table back when the California mandate occurred (a decade or so ago) and we saw the EV1, Honda EV+, Toyota RAV4-EV etc.. Honda sold the number they needed to sell to meet their quota’s and took their EV+’s back as soon as the mandate was gone (canceling the leases) and destroyed them all.
They jumped immediately onto the Fuel Cell bandwagon at the time (their government gave their auto industry alot of money, like ours did, to pursue that always 10-15 year away technology which the Oil companies supported). Honda has stayed prominent proponents of Fuel Cell’s even as it became obvious EV/EREV vehicles were being proposed and developed by other manufacturers (and would be much cheaper and here years earlier). They’ve seemed to be a company that just wants to keep making ICE powered vehicles.
While their FXC Clarity Fuel Cell vehicle is impressive and provides experience integrating batteries + other power source with an Electric drivetrain, Honda has never been a pure EV or EREV proponent.
Kinda seems like Honda is being dragged back to the EV/EREV table again – my guess is that they were waiting to see if the EV push that was happening was going to pan out before being forced into it. I’ll be happy when they get a vehicle on the market, but it doesn’t sound like it will be for a while (which wouldn’t be unexpected from them given their history with EV’s) – the description they give is very generic and lacking in dates, numbers, vehicle details etc. (sounds like stuff you’d stay when you start a program and have defined what technology you’re going to use).
The CR-Z is truly a disappointment – a small two seater with a small hybrid engine and gets about the same mileage as a much bigger Civic (non hybrid), I’m sure they’ll sell some but wow – they should have been able to do just as well without a hybrid drivetrain. All that said, I actually like Honda, I’ve had several of their vehicles and they’ve been great for me – but a friend of EV’s they have not been. The fact that they feel the need to say they’re doing something is a good sign for the EV/EREV market.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:02 am)I would postulate that the Clarity is an EREV without the plug. Install a plug and it will suddenly drive three times more well to wheel energy efficiently. Not counting the losses from naked protons (hydrogen ions can be amazingly restless) escaping from the tank. The fuel cell then serves as range extender with the plug as…well you know the drill, you’ve seen all this before.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:08 am)More market validation! Don’t you get the feeling that a lot of car company executives like Takeo “No value in plug-in cars” Fukui or Johan “Chevy Volt Is a Car for Idiots” de Nysschen are starting to get a bit nervous?
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:11 am)“The design is said to contain a third capacitor-based range extending component”
Looks like EEstor has been SO secretive that they already got their technology in production cars under the radar!!!!!!
/sarcasm
+4
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:18 am)I think every automaker is going to have to come up with some version of EV. Honda’s just the latest one to hop on the bandwagon. I just hope that GM can keep their lead with the Volt.
+5
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:19 am)I think you should be thanking Tesla first as Uncle Bob has said many times that Tesla coming out and saying that they were going to build (and then built) an electric supercar encouraged him to pressure the board into at least looking at making a concept car.
You could also thank Lyle for making this blog after seeing that concept car and showing GM that the Volt struck gold with the American public and that they HAD to make this car.
And while we are at it… thank me. No real reason for that one though
.
+3
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:21 am)It has been said that Airbus has learned much from all of Boeing’s 787 miscues – and they have been legion. No airplane Boeing has made in it’s entire history has not flown at least six months from rollout. The 787 was still not ready to fly TWO YEARS after rollout. Of course, top executives gave many reasons for all the delays, including that the Dreamliner is such a revolutionary new technology. Of course, Boeing has produced revolutionary bombers, fighters, helicopters, airliners and everything in-between for ages. But the excuses kept coming, and the embarrassment ever-increasing.
One big excuse was that the 787 had unprecedented levels of outsourcing. Yet Boeing has always outsourced internationally – in fact, securing orders from countrys and dissuading them ( Japan, Korea ) from building competing airliners has always been a large impetus for such. And, of course, brilliant marketing.
What has changed with this airplane is that Boeing made broad changes in the way it performs nearly every order of business. In past times, Boeing called outside providers “suppliers” – and suddenly, they re-named them “partners”. The big difference there is that previously entire teams of engineers set up office in foreign factories and not one part left the bldg. without getting their Boeing seal of approval. Today this is not so. So parts show up in the Everett, WA production facility the wrong size, spec and flawed. Boeing purchased failed McDonnel Douglas, and instead of firing the department heads , they placed them in high positions in Seattle – overseeing all parts of 787 production! So they hired the people who ran a failed company to …… run a successful one!
It goes on and on, but Boeing really had a lead in the industry – and they’ve let it slip away. Airbus’ partners have a well-oiled multi-national government corporation running their operations. So the chances of them making anywhere near the errors Boeing has are slim.
In that way, I can see how GM could hem and haw and lose their competitive advantage by making similarly atrocious decisions regarding Volt. The auto industry, like any other large tech-centered endeavor, is largely momentum-driven.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:24 am)Sounds good, but the size of the ultracaps will be fairly large for a 300VDC pack. Of course 300VDC is just a SWAG from me but at anything past 200VDC it’s gonna be a bigass pack.
But I do see your point. Even if the pack is never taken out of the circuit (parallel to the batt pack) the ultracaps will suck up 90% of any juice fed to the set. Takin the batt pack outta the equation will preserve cycle count/life more effectively.
Maxwell builds a 120VDC pack and looks like the size of two old VCRs stacked, maybe a little bigger.
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/modules/bmod0063-125v.asp
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:33 am)I think you’re right LauraM, seems like most of the Japanese makers are in now as well as the US guys (although only Nissan and GM are really almost there).
On a purely selfish note – the sweetest one’s for me will be when the German automakers are forced to commit to production EV programs, simply because they don’t seem to want to do much to get away from the ICE – I would guess they’ll be the last ones, but we’ll see.
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:40 am)AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Black and Decker already has a full on EM (Electric Mower).
http://www.blackanddecker.com/pages/promotions/promo36voltCordlessMower/promoMowerCompare.aspx?gclid=CKHk662D9aACFRJYbQod9Bk1tQ
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:42 am)A major sporting capacitor-assisted drive. Looking at all the ink generated over EEStor; Honda knows that’ll grab us. Is it EEStor? A competitor? Honda’s track record being forthcoming is hardly exemplary. Just keeping headlights going off a capacitor makes for interesting potentials. (pun) I note readers here sniffing at Honda’s fuel cell (FC) trials. Wrong! Honda and a whole bunch of Asian majors take FC tech very seriously – as evidenced by the sizable number of U.S. issued FC patents monthly. These guys know their beans-as we should but don’t. As it turns out GM alone carries the US FC banner. Ford’s with Ballard (Vancover BC), & Daimler. Chrysler’s program was shut down and I read somewhere Fiat is reinventing its program.
Right now – not 5 years – now… FC tech closes in on 20 year useful FC reliability. You say what? Hydrogen economy? No matter. If FC attains durability – there’ll be plenty of motivation to accommodate.
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:44 am)As an addendum to my earlier post re: Boeing’s bobbles — They completely lost a tanker contract with Australia due to endless delays and missed deadlines converting 757′s. This type of conversion has been done by Boeing for eons. Suddenly, this project just couldn’t get off the ground ( sorry for the pun ).
We all know about the political mess Boeing caused itself over the Air Force tanker deal, and subsequently John McCain slamming the door closed – and offering the mega billion dollar deal to Airbus. Now the drama continues, and yes, it is like watching a Congressional train wreck in slow-motion.
With most of Boeing Commercial Aircraft’s hopes being hung on the 787 Dreamliner, and new airlines dropping off the purchasing schedule by the month. Some speculate the aerospace giant could need a government bailout – and, of course, probably a czar of some sort to oversee every move it makes.
Sound familiar?
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:45 am)I’ve owned several Hondas, all have been excellent. If Honda does build an EREV Accord, it will be a good contender. I have a civic right now that has over 150,000 miles on it that has needed nothing but scheduled maintenance. And last summer I sold a 91 accord that had over 350k on the clock and still ran great, but man oh man was it UGLY!
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:46 am)Hey James, Boeing has certainly stepped in it, time after time on this program – and it seems like few people at the top really payed for the bad decisions that led to this outcome, in fact they still seem to say how great this new method is going to be (goodness knows it cost them all the money they intended to save with it long ago).
That said, Airbus is far from a well-oiled corporation – they had tremendous issues with their recent A-380 launch and delivery – they blew it by about 2 years or so as well, but for totally different reasons and their military side has blown it even worse with the airlifter they’re trying to produce, the A400M.
Seems like the big question here is who is less inept when you look at these programs – and its a tough call.
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:47 am)Ouch.
The maxwell thingy is 130 lbs for only 100wh.
Apr 7th, 2010 (12:02 pm)“Pricing and official EPA fuel economy numbers won’t be available until later this year when the Cruze actually goes on sale.” — from Auto Blog
GM has only released the Highway milage number.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/28/2011-chevy-cruze-eco-cruze-rs-unveiled/
+4
Apr 7th, 2010 (12:11 pm)Since cobalt xfe is 25/37, lets just ASSume that its 26/40 for the Cruze.
26 mpg city for the Cruze.
Thats my final answer.
Value?
Buying a relatively high mileage car without supporting Japan Inc., priceless.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (12:11 pm)Honda is the master of small engines, they could easily stick a generator on a small engine and put it on the Clarity.. it may take them a couple of weeks of engineering time, maybe less. I dont know where all you people get the idea a genset is hard to do. Probably an 800cc ICE would be plenty.
The Insight itself needs a smaller ICE and a stronger motor.. 15kw motor is just not enough.
Apr 7th, 2010 (12:16 pm)You obviously know a lot more about the Boeing/Airbus rivalry than I do. But I thought the major difference this time was that Boeing was outsourcing things that had never before been outsourced? Like the wing? I thought that they did it because they wanted to share the R&D costs since unlike European governments the US government wasn’t willing to underwrite the necessary R&D?
I believe Airbus is also doing an unprecedented amount of outsourcing? But not as much as Boeing did. (53% instead of 70%.)
Apr 7th, 2010 (12:19 pm)That’s my thought. However, with a potentially infinite-life buffer zone of sufficient size, a 2.4 liter engine would be overkill; the genset could be sized closer to the car’s average energy requirement. Of course, supercapacitors (never mind science-fiction like EEStor) tend to be expensive and bulky, so probably the buffer isn’t very large.
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (12:21 pm)The Volt uses way less than that, probably 25hp to cruise at 70.. 70hp will take you all the way to 100mph.
+4
Apr 7th, 2010 (12:24 pm)The best guess from the March 28th thread is 30 mpg city, which is hard to believe from a heavy American full gasser, as the current Aveos get no better than 27 mpg city cycle. Even if it does reach 30 mpg city, the Honda CR-Z ok performance weak hybrid gets 33% better city mileage, at 40 mph city cycle, than the best possible Cruze city mileage.
It just so happens that I’m not a huge CR-Z fan and have no problem with the Cruze, but tossing on a cheap extra tall gear for better highway mileage does not mean that it crushes all other configurations in all settings, as Starcast’s original post would have you believe. Having said that. I think that tossing on a cheap extra tall gear is a great idea in general if you are forced to use multiple gears at all. I’m not forced to, so this is really off topic for me.
It’s just that I especially hate American automakers failure to confront city mileage. It makes them look weak. I’m afraid that the best right this second solution to that really does seem to be stop/start engine tech and electric motor assist at low speeds at a minimum.
It seems strange for a site that supports a vehicle with electric drive to be blind to city mileage.
Apr 7th, 2010 (12:30 pm)Oops, I obviously didn’t read the following comments before making mine. I think there are merits to this idea, but technical hurdles remain. If a much more expensive battery is developed which can handle a larger number of cycles, perhaps a small bank of them could substitute for an even more-expensive capacitive buffer. Costs could be made up by using cheaper cells in the main battery (storage, vs power), since they will be relieved from any buffering duties by the buffer-pack.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (12:35 pm)I have to agree with you, here. Those GM “on the highway” ads drive me absolutely nuts.
I agree with EVO? It had to happen at least once …
Apr 7th, 2010 (12:39 pm)Since we don’t know and GM hasn’t said, we’re guessing. I *guess* you could call that similar to “be blind to,” but I think people on the sight are just waiting on real information. All improvement is good, OK? I expect that between city and highway mileage, which is more important to someone would depend which they do more of. Yes?
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (12:44 pm)Some people get “driven *nuts*” and some of us have a head start.
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:05 pm)#75
Me too. +1 Dishonest IMHO. Or misleading at a minimum.
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:07 pm)I agree. Those numbers should go hand in hand together. They’re both important.
That’s like giving a females dimensions of xx-26-36.
YOU LEFT THE MOST IMPORTANT NUMBER OUT!!!
/remember, that number goes hand in hand to!
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:08 pm)#79
LOL. +1
When I would shout “You drive me nuts”, my ex-wife would say “That’s not a drive Noel, that’s a putt.” Almost 40 years ago now, but some things you never forget.
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:09 pm)Your high top gear point is well taken. I have a Trans Am with a 6 speed manual. I can cruze (pun intended) at 70 MPH in 6th gear and only pull 1700 RPM while getting 27 MPG on the highway from a 5.7L 350. City mileage is closer to 20. It is all on how you drive but I can do much better then 0-60 in 10 seconds when called upon.
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:09 pm)I wouldn’t be so sure of that. Gas is a lot more expensive in Europe. And the German car companies are much more in touch with the European consumer…
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:16 pm)George,
Can’t quite figure out what the real story is here. No mention of battery capacity, AER, total range, etc.
I almost wonder if there isn’t a translation issue, where someone said onbaord generator in Japanese and the interpreter came up with capacitor instead of generator. I guess time will tell.
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:25 pm)Or onboard generator and capacitor. Or something. But yeah, it doesn’t make any sense.
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:29 pm)AER? It’s not mentioned anywhere. I don’t think the IMA config even allows it. Does it? Any Civic Hybrid owners able to move without the ICE running? If I recall a coworker from another dept, he always had to have the ICE on. So, unless they have a clutch mechanism in place to decouple the ICE, they don’t have an AER.
/JMHO, but feel free to correct me.
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:40 pm)From what I understood while Boeing has always outsourced production of different items on their jets, they did these same items to a level of completeness they never considered previously (probably never considered for good reason). Previously they would get a fuselage barrel in Seattle (it would be mostly empty) and then they would stuff it with all the little things that have to go in there as it was part of the final assembly process – it was this way for virtually everything. For the 787, some genius decided they would hand all of this intricate integration down a level to the company making the component – i.e. the fuselage barrel would come “pre-stuffed” with all wiring etc., same for the wings and on and on. No need to finish the wings, they’re already done when they arrived. Boeing would only need a much shortened final assembly line to (in their own words) snap the pieces together and rake in the cash. They were going to save so much money.
Besides working themselves out of expertise in a job few companies in the world could do, they also expected all of their large assembly partners to become “final assemblers” (experts in stuffing all the parts) prior to shipment to Seattle. This has not gone well. But Boeing has enabled companies all over the world (many of whom are supported by their governments) to learn this complex technique – I’m sure none of them will want to use this knowledge to build aircraft themselves later.
It was one of those things that if you step back and apply some common sense, it doesn’t sound like a very good idea – we want to take one of the key parts of final assembly that we’re world experts in (and is valuable) and instead have everyone else be experts in it so we don’t have to do it – and then think that will be easy and quick – Boeing assumed a shortened product development cycle on top of this. (kind of reminds me of the logic of assuming everyone should have 401k’s and that everyone in the general population is expected to be an expert in investing – talk about setting yourself up for failure for alot of people)
-3
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:41 pm)Questions about the most significant feature of the design will remain unanswered by Honda just like from GM, eh?
The continued “no comment” responses when asked about CS-mode is not what many people would consider open.
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:43 pm)Do you want to lay a bet on whether the Japanese(Toyoto, Honda, Nissan) and Europeans(Daimler, Renault, Fiat) and many others will have an open- to all the second guessers forum running for three years????????????????I will cover what you want–because they will be afraid to do so.
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:49 pm)This is correct for the Honda IMA (at least the latest generation Civic Hybrid) – the engine is always turning if the wheels are turning (and you’re in drive) and/or the electric motor is providing power (it might have the valve’s closed on the engine to reduce pumping losses and be getting what little power the electric motor provides for sustaining the speed – but the engine is always turning). The Electric motor is basically a booster to the ICE on the Honda’s.
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:50 pm)Of course. Thank you Lyle, and thank you Harrier1970. lol
I don’t really consider Tesla to be a good car because of the range issue it has.
The EREV is really just a perfect car for now and near future.
I credit this idea to Mr. Lutz. Tesla announced an EREV after GM really got one going.
That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t take a Tesla if someone were to give me one.
Apr 7th, 2010 (1:57 pm)Not another pseudo electric car. This is another mild hybrid (or parallel or two-mode) where the gasoline engine is mechanically connected to the wheels.
The is an electric motor but this is used in an auxiliary manner to the gasoline engine only perhaps at low speeds is it permitted to drive the wheels alone. This is used by Ford, all the German manufacturers. The rational is easy, here you keep you super duper 8 cylinder 5 liter monstrosity but you can say it is green because you drive electric. With many German luxury cars the have simply added electric motors to power the front wheels leaving the gasoline engine unchanged to power the rear wheels.
Actually the extended range or serial hybrid needs a smaller engine which only is used to power the generator. Bob Lutz talks about a 160hp engine being used in the Volt instead of the 250hp that would be necessary if it would be powered conventionally. The BlueZero E-Cell Plus concept car from Mercedes has a weight of 1900Kg circa 4200lb but only uses a 1 liter 67hp engine taken from the Smart.
So let us have only the electric motor powering the wheels. Let us never again have private personal transportation dependent on only one source of energy.
The mild hybrid vehicles have no more than a cosmetic function and hinder the progress to a better way of driving.
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:03 pm)#84
Smart has announced, right? And they are certainly German (D-B) under the skin. And VW says that it is going to own the market, although I’m strictly from Missouri on that one. Or you could buy a Toureg hybrid for $105K, hahahahaha.
-5
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:07 pm)Can we first define “capacitor?” I was of the belief that a “capacitor” is a BATTERY! As we all know, the Volt has an enormous “capacitor.”
In what way is this car different than the Volt?
At this point the comparisons are speculative, since this “Accord” does not exist. They can slap the name Accord on anything. It doesn’t mean it will be as reliable as the Accord.
For the record I drive an Acura CL ’01. Essentially an Accord. I am a fan, and I can see this being an appeal in the future. They just have to prove to the public that it will be as cost effective AND reliable as the original Accord. If not, then it’s just an “Accord” by name alone.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:10 pm)So they’re going to build an EREV Accord? Or is it PHEV? Either way, it certainly makes sense considering the fantastic success of the Accord Hybrid, LOL.
Honda? 10-88!
LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:11 pm)I’m wondering if there will be a big difference between cruise control mileage and manual driving mileage. Seems the computer might be better at optimizing mileage on the highway, especially with up and down hills, etc.
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:13 pm)Honda is having a hard time selling the car now right? That is not going to get better when the Cruse comes out, so Honda might as well give up. I don’t think I ever said anything about city MPG.
Most people I know drive a lot more miles hwy then city. I have only 3 lights in the apx 12 miles one way to my office. Hwy is far far more important to many people. City MPG is maybe less then 5% of my driving. The Detroit Metro area is very spread out. Milford where I work is on the outer edge.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:15 pm)Just like every other industry in the United States. Why should Boeing be any different? IT looks good in the stock price because they supposedly have “growth potential.” And the CEO’s salary depends on the stock price. By the time the competitors build their own airplanes, the current management will be retired.
It’s all part of US short term thinking. Driven by hedge funds, and trading desks at so called investment banks and now commercial banks. And CEOs driven by stock price. And politicians who are only focused on the next elections…Not to mention fund raising with those same CEOs.
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:15 pm)You know LauraM this would make sense – their gas is so expensive it would have made sense for EV’s in Europe a long time ago, but not a single European maker had an EV in California during that EV requirement (if memory serves)…even though the Americans and Japanese did.
At this point other than Renault (which is in partnership with Nissan I believe) none of the big players has an EV/EREV that will be available generally in the next couple of years – although I guess you could consider Smart in there, although I don’t really think of them as big. They showed a similar lack of appetite to get into the hybrid market that they’ve belatedly been getting into over the last couple of years.
On the face of it, they seem to like to make ICE’s and not much else – maybe they can see that alot of the expensive parts/labor that goes into their cars after production will disappear with EV’s. Whatever the reason I’ll be happy when they get into this as it will means everyone sees this as real, but I expect them to be the last ones out of the big US/Asia/European manufacturers to join the movement.
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:17 pm)Probably not. But I doubt that will affect the future success or lack thereof of their EV programs.
-1
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:24 pm)See Zachary Taylor, who I frequently agree with.
Also, real information, no waiting needed:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
Cruze appears to be a Carolla/Civic/Sentra fighter. We’ll see. The Cobalt should provide some guidance there, but I expect that > highway mpg and = city mpg will make a positive difference for Cruze. If Civic/Carolla/Sentra get 6 or 7 speed DSGs or diesel, all bets are off.
Cruze clearly is quite different from a CR-Z in many ways. Sorry, Starcast. If you have more coin than for a Cruze, I’d look at Honda Civic Hybrid, Jetta TDI or maybe a CR-Z for efficient somewhat fun to drive bang for the buck.
Carry on…
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:33 pm)That is a great observation Noel. I still don’t know if Honda gets the lesson from the Accord “Power” Hybrid, that people don’t buy “hybrids” for power (if they want power they don’t care about hybrids) – based on what they’re doing with the CR-Z, seems like they’re going to jam that square peg back in and pound for all their worth.
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:34 pm)The beauty of turbocharging a small engine?
-2
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:37 pm)I agree with your conclusion, but not your methods.
You in fact stated the CR-Z city mileage in trying to diss it and thus opened up a can of wh@@P-a@@ on yourself.
Non-highway speed mileage is 43% of use in US, more elsewhere, so city cycle mpg ALWAYS matters, which is why EPA reports it, and especially in global markets, which have more concentrated traffic patterns than US. And, as we all know from GM’s marketing of the Volt, most US drivers commutes less than 40 miles a day, much of that with low speed limits, stop and start, stop signs and traffic lights.
I’m not the only one sick of GM’s highway mpg is all that matters BS.
Unlike others, I’ll tell that to your face, so that you can continue to refine your products and your marketing spin for better consumer acceptance and growing market share.
Last, the CR-Z simply does not compete with Cruze in likely price, city performance and a bunch of other areas, so why even go there? It’s almost as silly as saying that the Volt and the Leaf are competing. They are complements, not substitutes.
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:39 pm)And don’t forget the BMW mini trial. Daimler has a stake in Tesla. The Geneva auto show was full of European companies EV concepts. I’m sure some of them will make it to market. And they’re all working on an EV of some sort…
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:46 pm)That was then and this is now. The battery technology was much more expensive then. The only reason any auto maker made any EV at that point was that it was a requirement of operating in the California market. The Europeans didn’t have to build them, so they didn’t.
Regardless of their automaker’s plans or lack thereof, Europe likely has the largest market for EVs for the foreseeable future. And European governments aren’t worried about free market ideology, so they will give their own companies the best possible chance to compete. I wouldn’t count them out by any stretch.
+7
Apr 7th, 2010 (2:53 pm)Well, what happened is that Honda finally got the memo that they weren’t actually supposed to make hydrogen work. That has freed up resources to allow them to do something useful.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (3:11 pm)Wow you are making way too big a deal out of this. It was not that big a deal to me.
1) I never said anything about city MPG. In no way shape or form.
2) You said “I’m not the only one sick of GM’s highway mpg is all that matters BS.
Unlike others, I’ll tell that to your face, so that you can continue to refine your products and your marketing spin for better consumer acceptance and growing market share.”
Not sure what your talking about I’m an Insurance Agent, I do not work for GM. And by the way this is a blog you are not saying anything to my face. (not that that would change anything I’m just a dumb Insurance Agent)
3) you make it sound like city MPG is the most important, then you post “Non-highway speed mileage is 43% of use in US” Maybe I am just dumb but that looks like Hwy MPG is most important.
This is not that big a deal. Everyone looks for different things in a car.
+3
Apr 7th, 2010 (3:22 pm)Indeed, everyone looks for different things in a car. IMHO, EVO is just having a “john1701a” kind of day, picked a fight so he could yell about it for the rest of the thread and tell everybody, except the ones who happen to agree with him, how stupid they are.
I didn’t come here to “praise GM” or “bury it.” I just come to learn about the Volt and other EVs and do my best to buy a Volt someday. Still talking to the nearest likely dealer.
+5
Apr 7th, 2010 (3:24 pm)I agree but I think the percentages are much higher. EVEN IF you are on the freeway in big metro cities the freeway themselves are just the same as city…..stop, go, stop, go, stop, go, stop, rubberneck, go, stop, go…etc.
So yes, the City MPG is more important, IMHO.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (3:25 pm)I just come in to BS.
Anyone else?
Apr 7th, 2010 (3:27 pm)That too.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (3:32 pm)You mean this isn’t “entertainment”?
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (3:39 pm)Well, I’ve learned a lot here, but probably. Sometimes, I have way too much free time at work. And coming here looks a lot more like actual work than reading a book…
Apr 7th, 2010 (3:41 pm)You’re totally right about their market being big, obviously with their gas prices and smaller geography – they’re just crying out for EV’s, they’ve had a viable market for a long time.
I just said that I expect them to be last into the market, based on their past behavior regarding EV’s, Hybrid’s as well as their current production EV projects (or lack thereof). Cheers.
Apr 7th, 2010 (3:46 pm)Hey, check this out…
“Peugeot 207 gets upgraded 1.6L diesel, offers 119 g/km CO2 and 51.1 mpg”
http://worldcarsnews.com/2010/04/peugeot-207-gets-upgraded-1-6l-diesel-offers-119-gkm-co2-and-51-1-mpg/
“The larger 207 SW (pictured) is rated at 50 mpg (U.S.) with CO2 at 124 g/km.”
50mpg sounds good for a non hybrid.
But why the hell don’t all mfgr’s test using a global cycle/test? Are cities that much different from a stop, go, stop, go, stop, go……etc?
/sup wit dat?
Apr 7th, 2010 (3:47 pm)
Apr 7th, 2010 (3:52 pm)Yeah, especially if Mr. Dan P. posts his thesis responses……lol.
Or if someone posts a long whatever, then my ADHD kicks in and……………..what were we talkin bout again?
+3
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:06 pm)… and we’re recently informed that GM has apparently gotten a memo that they actually are supposed to make hydrogen work … and coincidentally it’s now hard to hear anything for Volt beyond 10K 60K 60K over 3 years’ time.
Take care, GM … you’ve got a near future and a far future; don’t let them collide …
-3
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:12 pm)City | highway mileage, respectively, is the convention and does match Honda’s other weak hybrid ratings.
Just saying.
Sorry, I just assumed that Detroit/Milford meant that some of your insurance clients might work for or with GM. My bad.
/standing down from rant
/own BS generator back on….
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:14 pm)Don’t wallow in it, EVO. I said once …
But seriously:
I can agree with what is said, but there’s also an issue of how it’s said. You’re getting better in that regard, but there are still miles to go, IMO.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:21 pm)There is a precise meaning for “capacitor” in electrical terminology, it is not a semantic football. A “battery” stores galvanic current by changing it’s chemical structure. A “capacitor” stores electrostatic charge over large parallel surfaces without changing it’s structure in any way. Because a battery is constantly changing it’s chemical structure, it eventually wears out. A capacitor doesn’t.
For our purposes here, it’s worth noting that capacitors store charge at high voltages and low currents, while batteries store low voltages at high currents: at first blush this makes the inclusion of a capacitor in an EV a tricky proposition at best. The benefit of potentially infinite charge cycles makes it a thing to pursue, but I doubt we’ll see it on the road anytime soon.
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:26 pm)California government
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:28 pm)From Wikipedia:
A capacitor or condenser is a passive electronic component consisting of a pair of conductors separated by a dielectric (insulator). When a potential difference (voltage) exists across the conductors, an electric field is present in the dielectric. This field stores energy and produces a mechanical force between the conductors.
An electrical battery is a combination of one or more electrochemical cells, used to convert stored chemical energy into electrical energy. Batteries may be used once and discarded, or recharged for years as in standby power applications.
I’m sure one of the engineers that read this blog can explain which is more efficient and why.
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:30 pm)I never said it wasn’t a short drive …
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:35 pm)When the “too little, too slowly” is no longer the case, the BS will simply vanish.
Pressure to deliver causes the loss of objectivity and constructive discussion. It’s to be expected.
Of course, that *should* change dramatically in 236 days. After all, this isn’t rocket science.
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:38 pm)roflol You guys crack me up every day
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:42 pm)Rocket engines are actually simpler than internal combustion piston engines.
Electric motors, however, are even more simple and elegant than either.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:44 pm)So have you found a Honda site to snark on today, or are you just *our* special devil?
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:44 pm)Well see what happens bro!.
I think when they announce price and CS mode mpg, we’ll start seeing changes, good or bad, I think everyone (Car mfgr’s) is going to change.
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:45 pm)#111 I agree. +1
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:47 pm)#115
Ouch! LOL. +1
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:50 pm)#114
Absolutely, +1 Or “theater” comes to mind as well. Or maybe “drama”? I mean, john1701a is worth the price of admission alone. OK, it’s free, but still……….
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:51 pm)I’d be willing to economize, here …
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:54 pm)#116
I think that their different emissions requirements, and much lower taxes on diesel fuel than gas, have skewed their market toward extremely high mileage diesels, which we don’t see here. So they haven’t had the same incentive toward hybrids that we have. They, including GM, have diesels which get better mileage than a Prius on cheaper diesel fuel. So why bother? That may be changing now. I hope so.
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (4:58 pm)OK, now you two have managed to crack me up.
Apr 7th, 2010 (5:01 pm)Tesla doesn’t sell an EREV and has no current plans for one. Bob Lutz has repeatedly credited Tesla with setting the stage for the Volt to get greenlighted by GM hierarchy after years of hearing the board say they don’t want to fund another science project. At the time it took an entrepreneurial mindset to take on such challenge. Does entrepreneurial sound like GM’s board from the early 2000nds. Without Tesla’s trials and errors there likely never would have been a Volt for today. Eventually an electric vehicle, yes. But the Volt somewhere between slim and nil. And I believe slim was was seen leaving through the rear exit.
Before Tesla used Li Ion Li Ion’s most famous episode before the public eye was spontaneous combustion in laptops on airliners. Martin Eberhard asked the poeple at AC propulsion to try them instead of NiMH. He couldn’t talk Alan Coconi of AC propulsion, and of the Impact and EV-1 into making the cars at scale. So he started a company with a friend and some acquaintances and called it Tesla. Remember what Honda and Toyota said about Li Ion only two or three years ago?
Lutz is said to have exclaimed before the Volt development program was approved, if some little start-up in California can build one…
Apr 7th, 2010 (5:09 pm)#137
Well thanks. that’s the nicest thing anyone’s said to me today, LOL. +1
With respect to your previous comment, I agree that this is a LOT more effective source of information about the Volt than “Blog X”. I check it out because I think it’s valuable to try to follow what the other players are up to.
OT, but did anyone see the story on the MSN site about the solar electric airplane which the Piccard group is planning to fly around the world powered solely by its solar collectors and 800 pounds of lithium-ion batteries for night flying (!) Pretty cool, IMHO. It supposedly took off, climbed to 5000 feet, flew for an hour and landed, all on its own, yesterday.
Also, GM announced that Hummer is officially shut down. The are offering a $6K rebate on the remaining 2009s. Get ‘em while they’re hot. Come to think of it, maybe I’ll grab one up, take it to Utah, and have it converted into a 100 mpg PHEV? NOT!!
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (5:12 pm)The ICE Charge Sustain long term and short term fuel trim economy subroutines are the last thing you finalize/set for Volt, because there are still many other covariables still in process. The CS economies have lots of “play” in a fixed load ICE setup like this, so, depending on what other things consumers like or don’t like (a work of survey research surely still in progress), CS economies are necessarily a last minute set of software settings, (not at all excluding what EPA finally formulates of course).
THEN, is when GM can know what they can do to optimize the software parameters in Volt, not before then. So, CS efficiencies will just need to take their own time for finalization per what EPA says they *currently* are, which changing attributes are very controllable by GM. After EPA finalizes their efficiency equations, then GM engineering can settle on a final set of things they can represent, but not before then at all.
Also, when EPA finalizes the equation parameters, then GM can actually come back to EPA with even finer tuned set of fuel trim schedules per those parameters, and come up with even better efficiencies after all.
Apr 7th, 2010 (5:17 pm)Do you have any idea on how they will test the Volt in a SMOG test for CA?
Just curious. If you don’t know, just give me your SWAG on it.
(S)cientific
(W)ild
(A)ss
(G)uess
/we’ve been kickin around the idea of a “Diagnostic mode”, but just a SWAG.
Apr 7th, 2010 (5:21 pm)It’s a collector item now dude!!!
It’ll be worth more later, if you don’t drive it.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (5:42 pm)Grams per mile net of the ER.
When you have that much concentrated electricity in the pack, you can do incredible things to cut grams per mile for everything when you finally need to cut on the ICE.
Think of this:
There are so many really great things that the EPA can let GM do on smoggy days. (Via software options with that pack if plugged in or not). You may need only to keep the just the cylinder head warm inexpensively on smoggy days/Winter days with some of the power in the pack just before you actually drive it, or just before the ICE needs to cut on, thereby eliminating most of those “cold start” grams per mile at ICE startup.
Really smart programming can make the Volt as close to a NZEV if it is not already.
In the Winter, to heat only the coolant in the cylinder head (to keep the insides of the combustion chambers very warm for more complete burning a lot sooner), this can be maintained or preheated inexpensively with the last few percent of the pack energy before going into CS mode.
There are so many more great things you can come up with by “thinking differently” than most designs of the last 100 years, because you have that huge electrical energy reserve there.
I would like to see some sort of EPA “hot line/quick-service/flash-track approvals” for the fast-tracking of GM improvements of all kinds like this. Especially if it could help us get more Volts on the road a lot sooner!!
Apr 7th, 2010 (5:59 pm)What about pre-heating the catalytic converter, is that too expensive, complicated for the slight gains or just not necessary?
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:09 pm)So they only listen to the engineers when they want to? If the engineers say Volt is not ready for big production, it’s the Gosphel?
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:15 pm)I happen to like the Mercedes C230 Kompressor and VW Jetta TDI, so you got me there.
On pure ICE -> Turbo + small, efficient engine + many gears = Eco and Fun.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:19 pm)If you noticed the design of the open chassis that Nasaman provided the other day that showed the exhaust manifold, right directly underneath that is the cat. It is so close to the “fires of hell” in the combustion chamber, I would expect it to “light up” within thirty seconds or less of ICE ignition.
Also, there are Catalyst Protection Activity software subroutines nowadays that can run the mixture so much hotter at first, (if there is a combustion irregularity). This is a result of faster processors and sensors, and of course software.
Based on what I saw in the picture Nasaman posted the other day, the catalyst is up to operating temperature and cleaning trace amounts of hydrocarbons as well as already converting the carbon monoxide to the carbon dioxide already, within seconds.
(The term “Heated Catalyst” from our non-engineering contexts in OBD terms, doesn’t mean there is an active heating element in the Catalytic converter, although the Gen2 oxygen sensors have heating elements that are essentially light bulb filaments that get the sensor up to temp sooner to sense sooner or more consistently, so the PCM can trim fuel and cut hydrocarbons a lot sooner and more consistently).
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:24 pm)Sounds to me like if you would just ask EPA what they want, you could very easily win that war.
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:41 pm)Seriously? I think that there was just a tad more effort involved over the last 3 years.
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:42 pm)Dan–My verbose engineer–Do you know of any other info on MPG determination other than the Idaho National Lab Plug in mileage draft? That shows an accelerated test procedure done in Phoenix and was used last????? on a modified Prius in Feburary. Appears to be run by the Feds.
I would appreciate any knowledge you could pound in my head on this.
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:47 pm)And for some, that “drive” is more like a Putt (LOL).
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:53 pm)SORRY, hadn’t gotten to #82 yet. Same joke. My bad.
OT: By chance there was a Chevy Dealer lot right next to the bldg where my appointment was today. I’m #1 on another Volt wait list (g). Made my day.
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:56 pm)A WIN all around for GM and Volt. Honda endorses the Volt with their announcement and simultaneously shames their CEO for his lack of vision. The way forward for all car makers is the EV and variations like ER-EV. Just check the comments from the people who have actually DRIVEN production Volts (pre-prod). They are VERY positive! People get in a car that has clearly been engineered at the top level of auto design and speak highly of the experience.
It is great to hear that the Japanese will be the first to follow Chevy’s lead in ER-EVs. The volt team continues to rack up huge points and wins, steering the product launch to an enthusiastic reception. Great work all!
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (6:57 pm)Please excuse the apparent verbosity on my part, but I try to write also for my technicians audience here in Austin, TX.
I think that the key thing to know is that whatever happens to “shake out” from all the various efficiency, emissions, safety, (and on and on) from these and about fifteen more auto regulatory agencies that all OEM’s have to answer to, the “final number” is *not* going to remain the final number for very long.
Why? Because the incredible thing is that it all can be updated through the OnStar for more and more efficiencies as time marches on. What was an efficient subroutine last quarter can be updated as things change.
Not only such as for the season of the year, but the severe cold front or warm front coming in tomorrow. These are some of the incredible things that the OnStar can conduit into the Volt.
I’m not the least concerned what the initial numbers will turn out to be, because they will be **very** initial from what I can already see.
You’ll just drive it better and better.
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:06 pm)I think that you are both correct. And we can be all the more grateful that we had this chance to ride along with the Volt’s development. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:10 pm)Agree and well stated. I admire your work so don’t take offense.
What I want to know is – how do you determine the sticker MPG. The Feds are not going to allow GM to change that on the sticker–They (Gov) do that . Also it appears the Idaho National Lab -Arizona accelerated test is the only plug-in test procedure.
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:17 pm)Seems like a reasonable assessment, stated reasonably. Almost “Caesarian” (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:19 pm)Yep, pretty much (g)
Be “S”
Tagamet
-9
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:24 pm)Great News. Honda Engineers are going to open up a can on GM you can be sure. Nice first try GM but it will soon be time for Honda to kick you to the curb. Honda superior engineering will show GM how to do EV right. This you can be sure of you silly Volt people.
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:24 pm)
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:28 pm)And in what fine PA city might that be?
I’m still trying to connect with my Albuquerque Sales Manager. He came back from Easter vacation and before I could schedule my trip to see him later this week, he is leaving again for the rest of the week. Oh well, next Monday or the following Monday.
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:37 pm)(Stifles obvious one-liner)
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:41 pm)That’s be Danville, PA. Home of the Geisinger Medical Center, made famous by President Obama. I expected to get home to an email from them, but none here, so I sent them one about the deposit. It was semi-encouraging that when I mentioned *driving* a Volt, the one salesman called another over so that they could quiz me about the experience.
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:44 pm)VW hired Martin Eberhard to get their EV program going. I doubt he’ll be there for long if they aren’t serious.
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:47 pm)Boy, it’s a darn good thing that GM has a THREE YEAR HEAD START! (lol)
G’Nite Gracie.
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:48 pm)Diamler, Renault, and Nissan have apparently traded 3.1 percent of each others stock to be able to share technologies for getting into EV markets with at least two more new EV models.
Apr 7th, 2010 (7:57 pm)Definitely exciting times!
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:22 pm)Not really an answer to the question, but you guys might be interested to hear the conversation going on during this test-drive (if you can tear your eyes off the driver):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsEqX_fAzvY&feature=channel
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:27 pm)Dan, this post isn’t long enough!
:-O (gasp!!!) :-O
… it should have included a link.
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:29 pm)Here is an article that hints at the possibility of the Volt pre-heating the catalytic converter.
http://www.horiba.com/uploads/media/Beyond_Bin5_-_AEI_November_feature.pdf
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:31 pm)I breezed most posts, but I was looking for some to mention…….EESTOR.
“Honda would employ an engine and electric motor setup, which, when all the stored electricity is used, would automatically switch to an on-board capacitor that would further extended its range.”
So, maybe Honda is buying themselves an EESTOR capacitor to power this baby.
I just could not help myself, sorry
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:31 pm)I PITY the FOOL who would make a post like this!
+3
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:31 pm)I agree that American companies play tricks with numbers to have that tagline “Americas best mileage line of cars and trucks”. Have you noticed the trend lately? Seems EVERY car company’s making that claim. Reminds me of the old Taurus/Accord/Camry wars – each year, they all played foxy games ( financing – fleet sales to itself, etc ) just to lay claim to that coveted “Best selling midsize sedan in America”.
Ironically though, contrary to the auto media’s trumpeting of Toyota’s city mileage for it’s hybrids, my Prius absolutely sucks in city. I’m no hypermiler, but I do work at mileage – pulse-and-gliding and all. The EPA city numbers for hybrids? You can just toss them out the window. Why? Because on short trips ( those ones we quote as being the BEV’s strength ), parallel hybrids crank up the ICE to “condition the battery” and heat up the coolant EVEN WHEN IT IS NOT NECESSARY DUE TO A WARM/HOT ENGINE AND FULL CHARGE! All current hybrids suffer from this major drawback. Toyota has added “EV Mode” to it’s American hybrids ( Japanese and Euro Prius had it all along )which is one reason the 2010s fare a bit better in this regard. Still, with the parallel setup – from a stoplight in city driving unless you want to be run over by a Peterbilt, the gas engine kicks in about 40 feet from the line – every time.
I can regularly get 53 mpg from my ’07 Prius on a mixed drive of highway, city and freeway miles.Sometimes more.On a short trip to the market last night of approx two miles on flat pavement with only one light, I averaged 26 mpg round trip! All the EPA ratings are just false. Period. It’s absolutely painful for that ICE to be buzzing away as you putt through parking lots and cruise with no traffic, straining for regen, with the HVAC off, no radio…. So don’t believe the numbers you see quoted on ANY hybrid or electric vehicle. It’s real-life use that tells the tale.
It’s for this specific reason the Volt turns me on as much as it does. Sadly….lol….my wife will be driving it most of the time since she has all those short trips each day. In that arena, our Volt will shine shine shine!
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME.
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:38 pm)This joke always cracks me up …
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:39 pm)Was it Harrier that had posted that before? I know I’ve seen it a few times – and enjoyed it every time (lol). As an aside, I wonder why none of the Volt videos on You-tube have many hits? Surely everyone is as interested as we are, so why so few “hits”? A gen-U-ine mystery.
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:40 pm)Alan Coconi was the innovator behind the power electronics for the Impact through the EV-1 and the variants that have come later. His answer from that engineering background to requests to trying build another mass production bound electric car- No thanks, been there done that. The engineers are not responsible for raising the three quarters of a billion dollars to develop the next hot car. The board members will fall on their swords for handing that money to market losers. If engineers are not in consensus and brilliant pioneers say no way, the GM finance people, Execs and board will have to take a leap of faith based on the ideas they hear from each group pushing for funding.
When the fuel cell advocates are saying the EV advocates are crazy, and the Hybrid advocates are saying neither of them will ever make any money, where is the point that GM’s board should listen to which of the groups of engineers? Keep in mind the amount of time it takes to bring a competitive car to market and the effects of externalities like the business cycle and changing consumer tastes. The board will fund the engineers projects that will appear to provide the best business case for the shareholders benefit. If the engineers don’t provide projects that will earn money will engineers who can be hired?
That’s a rhetorical question, I clearly have no idea of the structure Bob Lutz established to fill the product pipeline.
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:46 pm)WOW, you *are* old, Zachary! (g) I wonder how much all those gold chains would go for in today’s market?
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:50 pm)I shot the video and posted it. If you notice, the YouTube poster is identified as Zachary Taylor Jackson, and there are actually 3 others (including my drive).
And don’t call me “Surely.”
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:51 pm)Videos are saved and recycled by other people. This resets the clock to zero. I don’t know why people do this, but, that’s what happens.
Apr 7th, 2010 (8:59 pm)Ba Dump, Bump Ching!
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:03 pm)I have a persistent fear that this very scenario is in play at GM, and that Voltec is not the beneficiary. As I said in my #120:
No matter what the GM Hydrogen Cabal has accomplished or what they think they can roll out by 2015, they are no closer to establishing a practical hydrogen support infrastructure (and I haven’t heard anything meaningful about their plans to safely store hydrogen on board a vehicle).
The flat declaration that a GM H2 fuel cell is specifically not being considered for EREV speaks volumes. EREV has the potential (as often noted here) to accommodate a great number of new power sources. Why exclude fuel cells, unless EREV is considered to be an in-house enemy?
We can only hope that Volt sales, and inevitable delays over in the Hydrogen camp will combine to restore the original Lutzian Volt vision past 2014.
-6
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:03 pm)What range issue?
With my minimum daily mileage now doubled from 25 to 50, that knocks out the Volt as an option for me. With the Volt now being an imported-oil gas-guzzling carbon-spewing ICE vehicle, it no longer meets my requirements.
+2
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:12 pm)Then go away.
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:33 pm)This somewhat fleshes out, for me, a couple of recent, mysterious communicades from the GM Corporate entity :
Why belabor and bemoan the “fact” that we have so much work to do to establish and prepare the grid for the arrival of the Volt….
All of us here know that that is precisely the competitive advantage of the Volt. If they can’t be charged at home quite yet… you can run it like normal until you have the dough to remodel/install whatever you need in your garage, or you can run it like normal until the utility company has the time to get around to your specific neighborhood…
Why bemoan the advantage you have over BEV manufacturers ???
… unless… you have to “play down” your inherent strength so that the other GM team doesn’t feel too bad about their effort.
And the other one is more obvious: pumping up the “vision” that hydrogen is the ultimate destination…
Dave G’s vision is more compelling to me: EREV + algae-type biofuels. So much more compelling that I puzzle at GM’s insistence that we are paddling to get to the H2 shore.
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:39 pm)Re: Post too short. (Haaa!) I think I said way too much today. I should “earn” that sort of critique more often!!
The link is right up on top of your screen in “Latest Headlines” from the BBC,
“Car giants agree to three-way tie up”.
(I think there is a joke in there somewhere. lol)
The great electric motoring race is on!!!
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:42 pm)Prowler, if your minimum daily mileage is 50 miles or more, you are looking at 18,000 or more miles a year. The Volt fits normal drivers better, but your profile will still save a lot of money by buying a Volt. Why would driving more miles ‘Knock the Volt out’? Would you prefer to drive a Leaf 65 miles on a cold day, and then get towed? I guess if you drive more than 50 but less than 70 miles every day the Leaf would be a decent option. But you would still be driving an ugly car that can’t go more than 30 or 40 miles from home without threatening to leave you stranded. The Prius maxes its MPG at 50 mpg, the Volt will start at 45 mpg, apparently, and if you drive 15,000 miles a year or less, your mileage could be considerably higher. Or you can pay stupid money for a hand built Tesla, which is so popular that they are selling nearly 20 every week. They are hand built aren’t they? Why else would a 2 seat car that can’t drive more than 3 or 4 hours, cost more than $100,000?
If the Volt has an AER of 36 miles, my mpg last year would have been in the mid-300′s. 340 mpg in a Volt sounds good to me.
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:46 pm)I didn’t know that! That clears it right up. I’m glad that you did though. I wouldn’t want GM to think that there was little interest!
Thanks again,
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:52 pm)I think from your unique perspective you can see that On Star is the “other” revolution coming along concurrently with EREV Voltec….
Thanks for your illuminations on this point.
…. prepping a car for a warm or cold front… amazing!
Apr 7th, 2010 (9:54 pm)It’s a problem more widespread than you might think. Especially when there is an implication that, say, for example, an (unflattering) overweight picture of someone was recent, when it was taken 20 years ago! (lol). That pesky “temporal contiguity” thing again! (lol).
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:10 pm)About a year ago, it may have sounded like I was bragging that I had over a hundred ideas for the Volt, but, you can be sure that GM engineers had already thought of all of them when OnStar first came out many years ago. I just know GM designs so well, that it’s easy to infer what is the way something has to work. (I would like to think that sometimes I actually do provide GM with something substantially beneficial, but, there is no way for me to know that.)
What prompts these ideas sometimes are the tragedies that we see in the designs of the other makes, and, how remedial it could be for safety upgrades to be installable instantly into a vehicle immediately to prevent software unforeseeable omissions from causing injury or worse.
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:11 pm)Lordy, you have quite a memory! I think that I used that term about twice. Did you read anything about the LEAF having an OnStar clone setup? I saw something on the Nissan site about them having a “communications system”. It *could* be two tin cans and a string, but it sounded good (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
PS This thread sure took a dark turn a few posts ago. Uncertainty does that….
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:12 pm)Anybody bored out there tonight? There’s a video on the Volt Posterous site about crash dummies. Not much about the Volt, but at least the video is family friendly.
http://chevrolet.posterous.com/
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:15 pm)D*mn, ONLY a -6. At least you’re trying to give me a reasonable answer.
Each person needs to choose a car that meets their individual requirements. One of mine is the ability to eliminate my use of oil to help energy independence (and to reduce the loss of American lives and the flow of our money to those in the Middle-East who seek to destroy us).
My requirements do not include cost reduction (although my present operating costs blow away everyone else’s here except for our visitor, who I believe is now gone, who drives a RAV4-EV on solar).
Be that as it may, I will continue to drive my Tesla Roadster until GM sees fit to offer me a car that meets MY requirements. For now, it seems to meet my wife’s requirements, so I will stay around for the time being – I’m certainly a major supporter of Bob Lutz, the Father of the Prowler.
BTW, you can’t ignore the cost of electricity in your calculations – although you estimate you’ll get 340 mpg in a Volt, you do need to convert the cost or energy value of the electricity. Otherwise, I can say that I’m getting “infinite mpg” in my Tesla.
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:23 pm)Seems like a pretty good gauge of just how bored one is…. (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:33 pm)All your statements have an excellent professional depth, so I remember everything you say.
I think the Leaf will certainly have to have a communications system of some sort.
As inexpensive as those throw-away cell phones are for, say, fifty hours of duplex (two way) communications, that 50 hours might last the life of the vehicle if communications demand utilizes the same logic as CAN (Controller Area Network) which transmits only changes, not a continuous transmission including the same measurements many times a second all the time. Transmission times with compressed file packets (of only the changes) can be sent and received in five second airtime-usages each day or many times a day, or semi-continuously/continuously. Or, it may have something more “full time” for the first week or month to be automatically monitored by the OEM factory computers. Cellular communications are likely going to be automatically both ways, but, I think Leaf will have nothing to do with the OnStar brand/type of communications that GM has. Very closely similar in function I would think, but not the same communications provider or frequency band.
When someone is uncertain about something, I look closely at how they project that they will cope with it.
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:36 pm)I periodically check: Voltage, Volt Posterous, and the unnamed E-car site just to see if there is anything of interest. I still think the video is family friendly and what are we but a big happy family.
Apr 7th, 2010 (10:59 pm)Just an endless fountain of knowledge (and as the one-liner goes “From which some only gargle”).
Be well,
Tagamet
/time to turn in. Night all
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS!
+1
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:00 pm)Post Script to my 195,
If someone *is* uncertain, that’s one thing. If someone is PROJECTING strong uncertainty with no basis in fact, then that is quite another thing if the motive to do so is to be controlling or manipulative. And, as you have advised in the past: pdnftt.
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:02 pm)+1
Be well,
Tagamet
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:02 pm)It is 11 pm. Good night to all as well.
Apr 7th, 2010 (11:28 pm)Doing that adds the inefficiency of charging and discharging the battery so the benefit is reduced. At 1/2 power, a gasoline engine is pretty efficient. Most of the gain in a hybrid car comes from the elimination of idle and light load operation. Eliminated 1/2 load operation is only a slight benefit, and with the cycling of the battery becomes almost no benefit.
Cycling the battery at high power up and down takes away life from the battery, and all for a tiny or no gain.
Apr 8th, 2010 (12:07 am)Actually, it is the other way around. If a cap is put in parallel with a battery, the battery will hog the current after a matter of seconds. The operating range of a battery is fairly tight from dead to full. The energy added or removed from a capacitor is proportional to the square of the voltage change during the charge / discharge. That means effective energy storage in a capacitor requires a much larger voltage delta.
Apr 8th, 2010 (12:10 am)Jon Lauckner — who is the ultimate person in the know — has said the Volt will use 40 hp (30 kW) when going 65 MPH slightly uphill. That may have been a little optimistic given the mass is higher than he anticipated when he made the statement.
+1
Apr 8th, 2010 (12:36 am)-8, actually.
I think it was the very troll-like phrase, “With the Volt now being an imported-oil gas-guzzling carbon-spewing ICE vehicle” that did it for me.
If you really feel that strongly about gas usage, why did you ever consider an EREV architecture? You need to stay with BEVs. I also predict that you’ll find yourself towed with a dead battery one of these days.
We won’t ditch oil altogether for many years. We must use what infrastructure we have in the meantime. Volt is the best avenue for minimizing oil use while using existing infrastructure that we’ll have for the next several decades. If we can use biofuels instead of oil within that time, there will be EREVs until near the end of the century.
Apr 8th, 2010 (3:30 am)I heard there was beer.
Apr 8th, 2010 (3:50 am)Yes, I hope GM is just being conservative in their estimates and fully intend to ramp up production to meet whatever demand there is beyond that… But, honestly I have some worry about that because historically GM has not ramped up production of any of their electric or hybrid vehicles very much at all. They priced them high and in case that wasn’t discouraging enough to customers, they hardly built any either. I guess just to make absolutely sure they wouldn’t sell (And I’m sure everyone out there thinks I’m talking about the EV-1 but I’m really talking about two-modes and BAS systems. They built pitiful quantities that didn’t even meet the demand that they managed to generate off their high price tags). This whole adventure with the Volt, I’ve been thinking that this time it’s different… They’re really going to build for some volume on this, but I keep hearing these kind of waffley volume messages.
Nevertheless, I intend to keep my fingers crossed and continue to believe that this time they really mean to push some volume.
-2
Apr 8th, 2010 (4:16 am)I take strong exception to that sentiment. prowler has a great deal of knowledge and experience in EVs. He happens to be more of a purist than most of us on total elimination of fossil fuels, but I hope he stays around, and that the rest of us can be a bit more tolerant.
Sorry, Jackson, I didn’t mean that as a pointed reference to you. You also have contributed a lot here, and your tone is almost always constructive.
Apr 8th, 2010 (5:41 am)Thank you, I4it, I see someone understands my post.
As you may have observed, I will take an extreme position to illustrate a point. When someone out of ignorance chooses to post, “I don’t really consider Tesla to be a good car because of the range issue it has” I will give it back double. Just because a car may not meet his needs does not make it “not a good car”.
As I have been saying for some time, as long as someone defines their requirements and buys an appropriate car, it is a winning situation. My illustration shows that the Volt may not meet EVERYONE’s requirements (as stated later in the referenced post).
Yes, I will probably still buy a Volt for my wire, whose needs it meets.
Apr 8th, 2010 (7:28 am)What the heck, buy one for your *wife* while you’re at it.
Apr 8th, 2010 (8:55 am)Many of us take strong exception to blasting the Volt. It is a massive step in the right direction if we can get enough on the road.
The enemy of good enough is perfect.
The EREV is so far superior to any pure petroleum powered car. If you stick to a pure BEV road, adoption will be slower. How is that better?
Apr 8th, 2010 (9:10 am)It wasn’t a blast, it was a counter-attack. Read the original post that I responded to.
That’s why I invented it: http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4252
No argument with that (see above). Only comment is that it is a path on the road, not the be-all and end-all final state “perfect car” as some will have us believe.
+1
Apr 8th, 2010 (9:27 am)prowler: Yes, I will probably still buy a Volt for my wire, whose needs it meets.
I guess I was looking at it from the point of view of my charger – it gets excited when I plug in the wire. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_state
Apr 8th, 2010 (9:35 am)Hey Rashiid, a little late with this, but after the discussion I loaded 3.6.3 on and found it doesn’t show the score increase until I close the tab and reopen it. Not great, but better than closing the browser.
Apr 8th, 2010 (10:18 am)I remember reading a book on the development of the EV1, that covered what Cocconi did with the Impact and its easy to see why he said “no” to this. With the EV1, Hughes (which was owned by GM at the time) was given the responsibility to create the “power electronics” for the EV1 based on the Impact design. The Hughes guys wanted and made big changes to the design of EV1 power management system to make it more producible/reliable (the Impact design was a work of art/love and not easily producable/reliable) and this did not go over well with Cocconi, things did not go well after that and did not end on great terms.
After that experience I could see why Cocconi would choose to say no – that was absolutely not what he wanted to do or enjoy (dealing with that garbage on the EV1).
Apr 8th, 2010 (11:47 am)#152
No problem. I’m very relieved that anyone would think it was funny enough to repeat.
+1
Apr 8th, 2010 (12:00 pm)Yay, another player! The more the merrier! Another EV!
Confusing description, what is this capacitor stuff for? Who would build a constant cycling charging/discharging system! Why?
I see my Volt either:
1) coasting/stopped — using minimal electricity (Radio)
2) accelerating/maintaining — electricity from Batt
3) accelerating/maintaining — electricty from generator, electricity to Batt and drive motor.
4) regen Braking — brief but constant, unless traveling down a grade. electricity from that motor to Batt.
A capacitor bank just adds complexity and cost and and i dont like it its dumb.
joking around about the its dumb bit – hope noone gets offended
-1
Apr 8th, 2010 (5:46 pm)I think someone misunderstood Honda. They are not proposing an EREV powertrain (even if they used “EREV”). They are only proposing an augmented electric source (capacitors to augment the battery) for their IMA mild hybrid system.
I think capacitors are a great addition to a hybrid system. They can charge and discharge very rapidly giving excellent power for acceleration and being able to more efficiently recoup momentum as electricity (i.e. regenerative braking) than any battery. One company has already prototyped this system into a driveable demo. Check it out: http://afstrinity.com/
+1
Apr 8th, 2010 (7:35 pm)5) buffering the difference between what the engine supplies and what the driver demands.
An ability to do this without prematurely exhausting the battery’s cycle lifetime would allow the engine to be much smaller. Ordinarily, as you point out in step #3, the engine has to come as close as possible to the load (from generator, electricity to Batt and drive motor); otherwise, you part-cycle the battery every time your load (acceleration) exceeds the capacity of the generator. This requires the engine to be fairly large.
If you have something that you don’t mind cycling (such as a capacitor bank, a much more advanced battery or something new), you can size your engine closer to the average energy requirement of the car, depending on this bank to make up the difference.
Imagine how much (or little) energy it takes to overcome friction at a steady 60 miles per hour; this is much less than what is needed to accelerate rapidly from a standing stop to 60 miles per hour. Now imagine that your engine is so small that it can only supply what it takes to overcome friction at a steady 60 mph, plus maybe 10 percent. It could be a two cylinder!
When you accelerate rapidly, the difference would come from the capacitor bank; with the expectation that it will ‘catch up’ the charge later when load isn’t so great.
Again: why the capacitor and not the battery? Because the lifetime of the main Li/Ion battery is measured in the number of cycles it can sustain. If you can come up with something capable of infinite cycles, this ceases to be a concern.
A small engine running at one speed is much lighter and more efficient than even the engine in the Volt. Fuel economy in CS-mode would be vastly improved.
It isn’t dumb, but not all that easy to explain, either.