A moment the world of electric car enthusiasts has been waiting for has just occurred and its better than expected.
Nissan has released the official price of its Leaf pure electric car which will go on sale in December of this year. Pre-orders will be accepted starting April 20th.
The MSRP is $32,780. With a federal tax credit of $7500 the effective price will be $25,280.
Further state tax incentives could lower the price further including $5000 available in California and Georgia, and $1500 in Oregon.
MSRP includes the battery.
The car will also be available as a lease option at $349 per month for 36 month after putting $1999 down. This price incorporates the $7500 tax credit.
There are two trim levels the SV and the SL:
The SV trim level includes an advanced navigation system and Internet/smart phone connectivity to the vehicle.
The SL trim level adds several convenience features, including rearview monitor, solar panel spoiler, fog lights, and automatic headlights for an additional $940 (MSRP).
The SV trim level includes an advanced navigation system and Internet/smart phone connectivity to the vehicle.
The SL trim level adds several convenience features, including rearview monitor, solar panel spoiler, fog lights, and automatic headlights for an additional $940 (MSRP).
The 220V AeroVironment home EV charger will cost $2200 including installation though will be provide for free to those participating in the eTec EV program. A 50% federal tax credit is available.
Cars will be availe at selected Nissan dealers in 2010, and nationwide in 2011.
“Imagine the possibility of never needing to go to a gas station again. Or of paying less than $3 for 100 miles behind the wheel. Or of creating zero emissions while driving,” said Brian Carolin, senior vice president, Sales and Marketing, NNA. “Nissan leads the industry by offering the first affordable, zero-emission vehicle for the mass market. Nissan LEAF truly is in a class by itself.”
The ball is now in GM’s court. Volt pricing is expected at least six months prior to launch.
“I think it’s fair to say their pricing, it won’t overwhelm, but it will have some influence on our pricing decision,” GM spokesman Rob Peterson told the AP.
Source (Nissan)
This entry was posted on Tuesday, March 30th, 2010 at 11:30 am and is filed under BEV, Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+62
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:33 am)Well, a EV that I can service within its electric range with 4 seats. Fits my mantra, so I will buy one. I’m not a one car family, and because the Leaf is a pure BEV, I will grab a Volt too, so it is all good today.
Personally, I’m pleasantly surprised at that pricing. Looking at it from GM’s perspective, I think the $25,000 number is ‘worst case’ for them. Already announcing a $349/month lease offer is also very aggressive for such a new tech, especially when you start taking out cost of fuel from that number. (If you drive around 45- 50 a day, you are looking at saving around $125-$150/mth at today’s prices…and the ‘crazies’ will do unrealistic math, stuff like 100 miles @$6…which no one will ever get realistically) Couple all that will Nissan starting to gobble orders in 3 weeks, and it really has been a bad day to work at the Ren Center.
GM now probably needs to move quicker with accepting orders, and they probably have to sharpen their pencil from what they had originally planned before Nissan got involved. They may have gotten wind of this pricing ahead of time, and that is why they seem to be pulling back on Voltec platforms, and ‘talking down’ the demand of late. I don’t think Nissan will have any trouble moving product at this price point at all, this is solidly in mid-size/Prius territory.
Regardless, if you are interested in a Leaf or not, it is a good day as a consumer who is interested in electric/gasless transportation.
+20
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:36 am)Wow, with confirmation on that the battery is included. It appears Nissan has done the impossible.
My hats off to Nissan on this – they weren’t kidding with those huge production target numbers they were throwing around, apparently.
You’ll be able to buy one of these for less than you can a well equipped Prius and not donate a cent of money to all those great countries we get Oil from. I’m still amazed that Nissan went with this price.
Go Nissan, they are going to own the market for a while if they get their production numbers up. What a day to be someone who wants to buy an EV, what a day.
+13
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:52 am)Nissan has been saying they’ll be a or THE leader in battery-powered vehicles. GM, BYD, Mitsu, Ford and all the others now have extra motivation to move quickly. Maybe GM will start taking orders sooner rather than later. Got a bunch of interested people here, GM!
+7
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:55 am)This is really big news for all of us Volt advocates. If they can sell a car with a big battery for $33,000, then I expect GM will be able to match that price. Wow, big Wow
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:55 am)I’m very impressed. I was figuring more like 35-37 MRSP for this car. 32-34 is certainly nice, especially with the navigation, back-up camera? and IMO, much simpler/nicer interior layout of controls.
But I feel looking overall at the Car, if the Volt is less than 40k MSRP, as we have seen the testers so far, overall the Volt’s a better deal.
Exterior Design
Interior Cargo Layout (look at the stepped cargo area… why?)
Leather, even pleather is much preferable to cloth (especially the biege cloth of the Leaf as seen so far)
Interior Materials (haven’t touched the Leaf so I can’t say for certain, but it looks overall pretty cheap, which the Volt does as well, but the leaf looks -really- cheap)
Higher Top Speed
I assume better acceleration
Unlimited* Daily Range (At 5 Gal per minute gas pumps, you can essentially drive 23 out of 24 hours of the Day with the Volt)
Still alot of ways for the Volt to justify a 7k+ premium over the Leaf.
(Looking at the Leaf, I am not sure why someone wouldn’t get a Golf TDI…. unless you live in California and can collect 12,500+ in government gifts to lower the cost of the Leaf to the 20k range)
+8
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:56 am)Considering the $40K Japanese price, this was a pleasant surprise – even though it is in the ball park most people had anticipated. Also this is launching in Seattle in December, so if I can get one I definitely will.
Only question is whether to buy or lease. The lease price is really attractive at $349. A lease would also mean I can probably get a better EV after 3 years – atleast we will have a much wider choice.
Hats off to Nissan for pulling this off. Hopefully, GM will follow suit and sell the Volt for less than $30 K after rebate – how about $27,500 ?
+14
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:56 am)The more the competitors the better for all of us. I still want my Volt EREV.
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:57 am)It’s wow time! WOW! Nissan isn’t pulling back on anything they boasted about.
A lease is a very interesting proposition as this is 1st gen. I’m kind of chicken to buy 1st gen anything anymore.
Let’s see how long it takes GM to make an all-electric Volt. “..just leave out some parts”. I am thinking all the talk a couple threads ago about making more range offerings has to do with price and the batteries working better than expected.
Interesting times.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:57 am)“I think it’s fair to say their pricing, it won’t overwhelm, but it will have some influence on our pricing decision,” said GM spokesman Rob Peterson.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100330/ap_on_bi_ge/nissan_electric_car
+4
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:59 am)The Nissan Leaf is less complicated than a Chevy Volt but has a bigger battery, so I am wondering what the price of the Volt will be. But this is great news for all EV fans.
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:02 pm)I am curious… The announcement says: “This incorporates the $7,500 tax credit.”
Is there some form or document whereby you “Assign” the Tax Rebate to the Dealer? Is that legal? What if you don’t file your taxes? Or file late? Or you OWE taxes and the rebate gets absorbed in that? It sounds like a paperwork nightmare for Nissan now… and for GM later…
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:02 pm)I think the price is about the level many have predicted… should spark interest and lots of tire kickers but as for buyers, it’ll be the ‘early adopter’ types and few others. GM should not let too much time pass until they release the Volt’s price if they want to ensure they don’t let too many early adopters get away. In the long run I still feel the Volt will appeal to mass market buyers, while the LEAF’s appeal will crest early followed by its sales falling to a trickle.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:03 pm)Anyone have any idea what the battery tech/warranty is?
+6
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:04 pm)OMG! Good news! I was bummed last week by the pricing posted in Japan. I am probably in the first 1000 people to sign up on the Leaf website so I will gladly put my $100 deposit down on April 20th. Today is indeed a good day for EV enthusiasts. Let’s get the EV’s on the road!!!!
+5
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:05 pm)statik, I believe the LEAF seats 5 adults.
Good news indeed. Between a pure BEV and a series hybrid BEV like the Volt both coming out this year we are definitely on the road! And there is plenty of market for both, no vehile is one size fits all and I believe both will sell well!
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:06 pm)Hopefully we will see if the “EV-it” system that uses the standard Nav system to show you your driving range based on the current charge will off-set the “range anxiety” GM encountered with the EV-1.
+6
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:15 pm)San Diego is the only place Volt & Leaf will compete in early on.
As to your prediction of Leaf sales trockling down after initial enthusiasm – that depends on the competetion in 3 years. I don’t think Nissan will have any problems selling all they can make till then …
And in California this will be just above $20K ! That is really cheap …. Nissan can sell all they can make just in California.
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:16 pm)I am thinking a zero-interest $7500 note that comes due on April 15th 2011. That way all the risk is on the customer and the paperwork is completed on the sales end. It’s all finance end after that.
+6
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:17 pm)Just a couple of reasons off the top of my head:
You can drive a car where none of your fuel costs go to our friends in Venezuela, Saudi Arabia etc..
And/Or you can drive a car that has extremely low comparative fuel costs (oil is already back up to $80/barrel and demand hasn’t recovered to 2007/2008 levels – where is that price going to go as worldwide demand continues to recover, probably not lower).
And/Or you can drive a car that doesn’t need oil changes and associated issues with an ICE and complex transmission (this probably has one gear, just a guess).
And/OR You can drive a car that has low CO2 emissions.
I think one or more of those things would appeal to a broad swath of the marketplace at this price.
Just a guess that Nissan will sell all they can make and oil prices appear to be coming back up just in time to encourage those purchases.
Also guessing that GM will sell all the Volt’s they can make even if it is $7k more.
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:17 pm)Hmmmmm …. I’m not sure about the LEAF.
I kinda prefer this “Wisker Karmann Ghia”.
It’s got me “hooked”.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:19 pm)Didn’t mean for that to reflect on the car. I should have worded that different.
Since ‘the beginning’ my mantra has been, “any EV that seats four that I can service within its electric range” Leaf fits that bill, so it gets my money.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:20 pm)A pleasant surprise. Let’s hope GM matches!
Wouldn’t mind if Ford did either, on their Focus.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:22 pm)This news certainly frames the price discussion from here on out. I’m personally happy to see the Nissan priced where it is as I was expecting it coming in quite a bit higher. I’m impressed.
It’s paramount for GM to get the price right on the Volt now. They have 1 shot at this coming out of the gate. Show us what you can do GM!
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:22 pm)Ok, I told myself I was going to stay off this site now but I guess 2-3 year old habits die hard.
Interesting read (especially the comments, which are surprisingly informed and positive compared to most other sites I’ve seen):
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/30/engadget-test-drives-the-chevy-volt-video/
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:22 pm)LOL.
I don’t particularly like the way Leaf looks – but atleast it is distinctive and I don’t like generic sedan looks either.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:23 pm)Kudos of course to Nissan. The Volt, though, will probably retail for I believe about the same as the Leaf (or maybe for the equivalent of the Leaf + home charger…say $35,000). Considering consumers’ range anxiety with a pure BEV, advantage is still with the Volt in my book.
I can’t wait for an official announcement from GM regarding the Volt’s MSRP. The other announcement which I’m eagerly awaiting concerns the New GM’s IPO launch.
Exciting stuff…George, Sudbury, Canada…go Volt!
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:23 pm)I will not but a BEV….EVER. I refuse to buy a car that can’t travel more than 50 miles from my house and requires charging overnight before I can drive it again.
Bring on the Volt!
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:25 pm)Does anyone know about availability in Canada? And whether there is a rebate for Ontario?
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:26 pm)So how does this compute for $/kwh? I’ll let someone more knowledgeable about that make the calculations…….
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:27 pm)Wow, this IS all suddenly becoming interesting. Pricing, as we know is the huge factor for a lot of people. Still, when I look at the Leaf and then look at the Volt, my gut tells me the Volt is a real car and the Leaf is somewhat less. Anyone else get that?
GM shouldn’t ignore that response and if the Volt is priced higher (which it will be) it should be stated that the Leaf is NOT in the same category as the Volt. We’re all “plugged in” here at gm-volt, but there is still a helluva lot of skeptism out there that the Leaf (and its appearance) will have to overcome.
+7
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:37 pm)The article said that that was GM’s initial plan. But they may go down further in response to Nissan’s price…
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nissan-electric-car-to-cost-apf-3270595876.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=
Personally, I still want a Volt regardless of what the price difference winds up being. I have zero interest in a 100 mile range car.
+19
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:37 pm)I would think that this news also ushers in the death of all BEV startups. Not sure how the Apteras, Th!nks, Codas, etc. of the world can surivive this…even Tesla might be done if this is Nissan’s first salvo into the segment.
I don’t see how anyone can compete with this product at this price without a infrastructure already in place on the ground.
Taking it further, it doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to assume Nissan can put out a 200-300 mile BEV on the road for a few thousand more if they wanted to. They say they are making a profit on these cars at this price point, so it initially appears the decision to go inhouse with the packs was a good one.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:39 pm)Unexpected low price, I think Nissan is trying to hurt the Volt (or hurt its mindshare). I think the following happens now..
-GM’s Volt price is $29,900 AR ($37,500 retail), they push the “its electric with UNLIMITED range” angle really hard
-Toyota has to cut their Prius prices once the LEAF goes nationwide.
I will speculate that Nissan has to be selling it either at cost or for a loss.
The LEAF isn’t an option for me since I’m a single guy, one car household. But it is a great commuter car.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:39 pm)Looking good. Looking good.
This is what I am talking about if price is right, people can buy even a catfish looking car like this and be happy. At $349/month lease, this vehicle may be feasible for me. That especially true if you work on sales and get money from your miles driven. For example, for the sales people driving 500 miles/month (usually taking people for lunch, so I drive less 80 miles/day, my employer reimburses me at least $250/month.
I suggest that GM price the Volt at least the same otherwise they may take a supreme beating. I am willing to bet money that instead of buying a Volt, once people see the pure EV at work they will not bother to buy GM especially after hearing ranges will be limited to 40 miles.
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:39 pm)Demetrius…I don’t know when the Leaf will be coming to Canada (I had read that the Volt will be launched up here sometime in the Summer).
But keep in mind, that the Ontario gov’t will be offerring rebates of “between $4,000 and $10,000″ for consumers who buy EV’s, PHEV’s and EREV’s after July 1st, 2010. No word yet on how long these subsidies will last before being phased out. I don’t know what the specific guidelines will be for determining how large each individual consumer’s rebate will be. For more info, go to: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/07/15/ont-electric-cars511.html
Best regards, George, Sudbury, Canada. Go Volt!!
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:39 pm)This is $32780 + $2200 for charger = $34,980 You have to count the charger in the price because you can’t use the car without it. Personaly 35K for that car? I don’t think so.
$40K for the Volt looks very good to me. No need for charger with the Volt. So 35K looks high to me for this ugly car. But I would not buy a BEV so maybe it’s just me.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:40 pm)Was originally for 2012 (and still says that on the site), but that apparently has been bumped to 2011 alongside the US nationwide rollout. Ontario gets a $10,000 rebate.
+5
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:40 pm)I’d like to put out a big wireless fist tap to Mr. Carlos Ghosn.. .. and a thank you to all the folks at Nissan who have made this first giant step in relieving us of a 100 year oil monopoly and all the nasty shlt that’s come with it.
/ How will Ford/Magna react with pricing/production plans on the electric Focus?
// How long till GM announces their offering in the BEV segment?
+12
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:41 pm)For those of you wondering why the Leaf prices are so high in Japan, this is a consequence of rebated VAT taxes on exports. That price differential is also applied to incoming cars to Japan.
They simply assume that everyone deducts the VAT on exports, and re-instates the VAT on imports. This procedure is eminently legal in international trading laws, and does not constitute a tariff, except to those countries willing to cede their industries to foreign competitors.
A Mercedes incoming to Japan from Germany, has had its German VAT, rebated and eliminated when exported. When it arrives in Japan, the Japanese VAT is reimposed. Similary a Toyota loaded on a ship in Japan, for Germany has its VAT rebated, in Japan, and reimposed in Germany. No harm to anyone, right?
Wrong! Our products bearing another tax like a significant income tax instead, are not exempt, or those taxes recognized. So our manufacturing exporters don’t get a VAT rebate on exports, or on those substitute income taxes. If they did, it would be illegal and subject to a complaint to the international trading authorities. Instead the incoming VAT is simply applied, and added to our products, on top of the income and other taxes buried in our product’s cost.
The situation is muddied up, because these countries piously claim they also have Income taxes too, and don’t rebate their much lower income taxes. They conveniently ignore the fact that a substantial portion of their revenue, that we get via our income tax, is actually VAT, so their income taxes are much lower.
We put up with this one-sided nonsense for 60 years, to encourage the rebuilding of countries devastated by WW II. It has gone on so long, Now some think it is a normal state of affairs.
I am not advocating a VAT, except as a total replacement for the personal and corporate income tax. That requires a constitutional amendment repealing the Income Tax amendment, or we would surely end up with both, with the present crew of spendthrifts, populating Washington DC. but we do have to put our country on an equal trade basis with the rest of the World.
The fact remains, our industries are devastated in international competition, both home and abroad, with the abilty to legally wage, such one-sided economic warfare.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:43 pm)Guess you can’t put a googleized stock link in here. My entire comment was deleted.
I was saying that the third-party home charger is $2200 ‘average’. That’s a tough expense for most people on day one.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:44 pm)Something from that same article (wouldn’t put too much faith in it) but it says the following:
“GM was looking to price the Volt, which can go 40 miles on full electricity before a small gas engine kicks in to provide power, around $35,000. It would cost $27,500 with the tax credit.”
“Orders in the U.S. start April 20 and Nissan is aiming for 25,000 orders by December.”
I would love for GM to be targeting that price bracket – they have a more capable car as well. I’d take one of each.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:48 pm)Definitely on the short list, though I plan to lease it rather than buy. The way things are progressing, in three years, the first generation Leaf will be very old technology.
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:50 pm)You can charge the Leaf right out of the standard outlet as well. The charger is a option. I myself will go to Home Depot for 220.
“In tandem with the purchase process, Nissan will offer personal charging docks…”
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/news.jsp?item=30#/news
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:50 pm)It’s still not too late to fix the sucker fish mouth! The car looks nice from certain angles, but from the one in this article… not so much. Maybe it appeals to Japanese tastes (pun intended)?
I don’t know, I’m one of those people who gets stressed out driving to the airport, worrying that I’m not going to make my flight if anything happens or there’s a traffic detour, etc. I also don’t have a cellphone or a wife to call to pick me up. I did enough car pushing in my college days, no thanks to that fun.
So the Volt still appeals more to me, including the made in USA/Michigan part of it.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:51 pm)For you Georgians:
Georgia Department of Natural Resources
Environmental Protection Division
Mobile and Area Source Program – Low Emissions Vehicle Certification
LEV CERTIFICATION TAX GUIDANCE Revised September 15, 2004
LEV/ZEV and Electric Vehicle Charger
Tax Credit Fact Sheet
“Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV): the lesser of 20% of the vehicle cost or $5,000 tax
credit is allowed for the purchase or lease of a new zero emission vehicle provided the
vehicle does not receive its electricity from an on-board combustion device.”
Sweet, how the price maximizes that to near $5,000, since 20% of $25,000 is $5,000.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:51 pm)If it were $10,000 I’d buy it. But for $25,000 I need a real car that can do really crazy wacky stuff, like take me to a destination 101 miles away from my house.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:54 pm)35K for this car the more I think about it why is this a good price? Add tax and prep and extras you will not get out of the door under 40K. 33K after goverment welfare rebate.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:54 pm)Not to mention I recall that Nissan practically bragged that they cut cost by having no real thermal management system associated with the battery. Lease. definitely lease.
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:55 pm)Starcast Says
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:39 pm) This is $32780 + $2200 for charger = $34,980 You have to count the charger in the price because you can’t use the car without it. Personaly 35K for that car? I don’t think so.
>>> If you lease the car for $349/month and $2,000 down sounds good to me. Why buy it?
$40K for the Volt looks very good to me. No need for charger with the Volt. So 35K looks high to me for this ugly car. But I would not buy a BEV so maybe it’s just me
>>>> You do not need to charge with the Volt but you do not drive electric either. It does not sound a winner to me.
I believe that once these cars start selling, you will see places like Starbucks, gas stations, etc offering quick chargers all over the place. It is going not be only an opportunity for gas stations, but for food business as well since people can stop for a recharge and eat something while they wait.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:57 pm)The problem with that logic is that it is the Nissan, not the GM, that has the actual hard range limit. Something as simple as a smart ad campaign can effectively convey that.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (12:59 pm)Didn’t they say it would take something like 20+ hours to charge the Leaf at 110? I think you have to count the charger in the price.
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:00 pm)LOL. You are right. But I chuckle to think that people charging up at Starbucks will end up paying about the same $ to fully charge their car as they are spending on a small cup of coffee.
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:01 pm)WOW….thanks to Statik & LauraM for the links. In those 2 articles, Volt MSRP is suggested at $35K before tax credit, which means the VOLT & the Leaf would only differ in price by $2,220. Frankly speaking, along with the extra cost of the charger ($2,200) for the Leaf, there is nil difference in price since the Volt can be charged from 110V.
Considering the fact that GM stated they will likely take into factor of Leaf’s pricing (i.e. lower the price), I believe owning a Volt would be cheaper, as long as one chooses to charge by 110V. I’m not too sure about Leaf’s battery reliability; I’ll trust LG’s redundent safety-incorporate design over Leaf’s battery design. EDIT: I read from Statik’s subsequent post that Leaf will charge with standard 220V as well. That’s great; but I still won’t consider a pure BEV with only REAL range of 70 miles or so. And yes, I’m proud to be a part of one car families. As a lower middle class worker, I can’t afford a 2nd car.
Go VOLT!!
p.s. does anyone know if there are any rebates right now/on horizon from Feds (Canada) or from Albertan gov’t? I know I won’t see a VOLT in a while, but just wanted to know. Thanx!
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:01 pm)That depends on how much you drive it per day. 100 miles might take 20+ hours, but 25 miles would take 6.5 hours at 120V/8A.
-2
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:05 pm)#4
Excellent point! +1
+4
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:06 pm)This has got to be the least credible excuse for not buying a BEV
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:08 pm)They are quoting 16 hours for full charge. However, that would never be a reality (or very, very rarily). People just won’t deplete the entire battery. Besides, as we know most Americans travel less than 40 miles a day, so more often than not your looking at 5-6 hours. Most people would be more than fine with 110.
Regardless, this $2,200 charging station is from a OEM. I’m pretty confident you can find third party contractors to put in a 220 for well under a $1,000. If your handy (and its legal where you are-or you can get a electrician to sign off), you can do it for a lot less still.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:09 pm)#11
Or a really good way to sell cars, depending on how you look at it. A lot of people here have suggested bringing the tax credit to the point of sale. Sounds like a big incentive to me.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:10 pm)If you drive the same distance in Volt as you drive in Leaf in a day (and less than 40 miles), it will take the same time to recharge using 110V.
BTW, most of us would end up with a 220V charger. Irrespective of which EV we buy. There is a 50% rebate on the charger – and in initial rollout places it is free for the first thousand or so buyers.
-13
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:15 pm)(click to show comment)
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:16 pm)Do the BEV-enegators never get weary? There is a place for BEVS. If the batteries succeed and develop as many anticipate, the BEV market share will surely grow. OK and enough already with you must have an EREV only, that’s just not interesting any more.
Prius will probably just keep adding battery capacity and hold its price down as much as possible.
Holding my breath for an American capital enterprise to enter the fray and give Nissan some competition. I hope Nissan rings up some pretty good sales numbers. If Nissan can really make a profit at this level then many of the hoary sages at gm-volt.com have egg on their faces already.
This is gratifying news for all EV fans. If sales go big in the next two years, there is a pundit who fearlessly predicts oil prices will moderate and stabilize very soon after that.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:19 pm)In keeping with the tech nature of the Volt, GM should price the Volt at an even 2 to the 15 (32,768)
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:20 pm)Regardless of the rebates. I still hold firm that you pay full price when the pen hits the purchase paper.
The “Rebate” is what you get, depending on your tax status, and the CA incentive is, I believe you get a check bat within a few months.
So you get nothing till later after you pay full price.
That said, how much will the “Cat Fish” car cost here in CA after you get your $$$ from Feds or CA Govt…
$32,780.00 + $2,200.00 = $34,780.00
$34,780.00 – $5,000.00 (CA) = $29.780.00
$29.780.00 – $7,500.00 (Fed Tax rebate) = $22,280.00
CA only gives I think $1,500.00 for the Volt and it will be classified as a PHEV.
I don’t know what the Tax, Lic and Doc fees are but can CorvetteGuy enlighten us on what that might be here in CA? I haven’t purchased a new car in over 13 years.
Also, dealer markup is a big unknown.
I’m with statik, batik fofatik…..
We own multiple cars, one to the left of the trailer and to the right. A BEV will be my 100% commuter for my 9.5mi one way trip. No need for another ICEAge car.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:24 pm)Well I dunno what happened at #55. Sorry about that. I was trying to underscore the excellent point at #4. If Nissan can sell this thing at this price point with a bigger battery, it bodes well for the Volt’s price.
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:25 pm)Will the charger for the Volt be an additional cost as well?
Jus curious.
-2
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:27 pm)Where’s the “Sparrow” ghetto/stripped down model!!!!
No Power Windows
No Power Adjust Seats
No Power Side view mirrors
No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all!!)
No Power Door Locks
No Power Trunk lock
No Radio (Remember that fiasco? – Get an iPod)
No Heated Seats
No GPS (My Phone has one and it WORKs!)
No OnStar!!! (OK, this is not applicable since it’s Nissan)
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge!!!
-11
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:28 pm)(click to show comment)
-2
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:30 pm)I fully appeciate the concept of driving with low C02 and low energy importation.
A few concepts though
#1. The Golf TDI will likely be cheaper if electricity if above 15 cents and Diesel is less than 4 dollars
#2. The Leaf, even with California’s heavy Natural Gas, will still emit around 60 MPG of carbon dioxide. (In Hydro or Nuclear Heavy areas, it can get as good at 70-80 MPG. Of course if you self produce Solar or Wind, then its off the charts) The advantage over a Diesel is not that great in practice.
Overall, the Golf TDI is the better car.
It goes faster
It goes quicker
It has more cargo space
It has more safety features (I presume based on limited information so far than Leaf is roughly Versa in terms of safety)
It has a better feature set availible
Its made of better materials
Its a heck of alot more attractive
And
It has unlimited range
If you offer me a Leaf or a TDI (or strong hybrid) and tell me that over 150,000 miles that they both would cost the same… the choice is clear. The Leaf, as currently displayed on the Nissan site, would need to have a significant TCO advantage… which is does in States like California with extra tax incentives.
Overall, I am really impressed with the Leaf. Its got a realistic price (albiet with loads of government money). A reasonable feature set. Its loads and loads better than 800 dollar a month Mini-E. BUT I can lease a Golf TDI for right around 300 a month … and not have to deal with the limitations of the Leaf. (Not that leasing is a good option, just easier to compare) Or I can wait and likely lease a Volt for ~400-450 a month… and get 75%+ electric and no limitations. I’m just a hard sell for a BEV because I firmly believe in 1 car/1 driver max and the Leaf is just not for a single car household.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:31 pm)Myself I would deplete the batt at least once a week. I drive about 180 miles one or two days a week so I would …………..Need a tow. Sorry ;>)
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:33 pm)Just in case you live in broke azz “Kahl-eee-4nee-ya” CA and wonder where the hell I am getting this CA rebate/refund/whateva, you can look it up here: http://energycenter.org/index.php/incentive-programs/clean-vehicle-rebate-project/cvrp-eligible-vehicles
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:35 pm)I’ll stick with the Volt for more than one reason. First, the car is super ugly, second, it is pure electric. Wait and after seeing them stranded along the road, people will turned off by them.
GM has the right long term idea with the EREV.
-2
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:35 pm)You need to add shiping, Dealer prep. and sales tax.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:38 pm)Nissan just fired a warning shot over GM’s bow.
It’s time for the Volt to retaliate…
The battle has begun!
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:40 pm)read the rest of my post. I haven’t a clue on those, that’s why I asked CorvetteGuy to give his opinion.
In the voice of “Forest Gump”…..
I am not a smart man Jennnnnaay…..
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:41 pm)After Nissan announces 20,000 SOLID ORDERS for LEAFs, how fast can GM respond with a total BEV version of the Cruze, or Aveo, or Spark, or whatever? I just hate to see the General playing “catch-up” once again to the Japanese automakers. Especially since the VOLT and other EREV’s like it were the key ‘selling point’ for the auto industry bailout money…. Very frustrating…
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:50 pm)I assume you meant “least justifiable”? Why would I lie about not having a cell phone?
I don’t have one and don’t want one, sorry.
-2
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:51 pm)Back when G.M. was building the EV-1, they conducted (contracted out most likely) a study to determine what price people would be willing to spend for an EV-1 in order to sell it in large numbers.
The results were stunning. The conclusion was G.M. (or any automaker) would have to GIVE the customer $8000.00 to take one! Basically the cars are so inconvenient, you would have to pay the customer to take one if you wanted to sell the car in large numbers. I don’t recall what the ‘large numbers’ were, I’m still looking for remnants of the story that may still exist on the internet.
This new Nissan Leaf isn’t likely to have a range advantage over the EV-1, but at least it sits 4 people. We’ll see if it sells at any price.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:52 pm)It would seem like 2+ years at the minimum (if it was handled as an emergency and used totally derivative hardware from the Volt), but I don’t think GM is in a bad spot here. If they haven’t already got a pure EV coming along – shame on them, but I bet they already have those things planned. The vehicle they have, as long as they make enough to get costs down is the one most of the general public would want to buy, JMHO of course.
GM’s vehicle is much more flexible and has a much bigger possible market – the one thing that could be a problem is if Nissan really comes through on their production level statements (500,000 a year – Toyota doesn’t make that many Prius’s a year) and GM is relegated to a noise position since they can’t make nearly as many (like they’ve been talking) and get their costs down (i.e. Toyota and Honda in the hybrid market).
I’ll bet there is some interesting conversations going on at GM headquarters today! To be a fly on the wall…
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:53 pm)Good 4 U!!!
A cell phone is not a necessity for life. It’s an annoyance.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:54 pm)Just for round number estimates, I use 11.5% of selling price for Riverside County and 12.0% for San Bernardino County… which is probably good for most of the state. Taxes do suck here!
As for markups, I am still lobbying for MSRP ONLY for previous customers of our dealership, and no more than $1500 over for anybody else… AND that depends on what we actually get for an allocation for the year (which I still don’t know yet… I still believe LA County dealers will get the bulk of year-one VOLTs). And that markup plan was suggested by another person who made a post on this site a few months back. I thought it was quite fair from a dealer’s point of view.
And I know what will follow this post is at least one that says, “I’ll NEVER buy a VOLT or any car for the MSRP…!” — Well, (I’ll just get this overwith right now…) Good Luck, Buddy!
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:54 pm)joe Says
”
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:35 pm) I’ll stick with the Volt for more than one reason. First, the car is super ugly, second, it is pure electric. Wait and after seeing them stranded along the road, people will turned off by them.
GM has the right long term idea with the EREV.
”
>>> Well, regarding the car appearance, that is subjective. Again, if the price is right and the direction is sound, which I think it is, most people do not care with the car looks since it would look ‘exotic and inovative’ not ugly. Personally I do not think the Volt is a much better than the Leaf when it comes to look. If I want an inovative car then I would wait for the Tesla Model S. That seems to be a real good looking and good taste looking car. Now if GM has the right long-term idea, that only time will tell. Personally I think those of you who praised the Volt is buying only a symbol, little more than the existing hybrid car. Again, let’s wait and see. I strongly believe that if the Nissan and other real electric cars start to sell and the infrastructure flourishes around it, the GM Volt will be obsolete rather quickly.
If my prediction is right, after 1-2 years once these cars hit the market we could see quick charge stations in many food chains and even gas stations. If that happens, the danger for GM is that people will focus in the battery capacity. at that point People could just compare 40 miles from the Volt vs. 100 miles from the Leaf and then it is really hard to justify buying the Volt.
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:55 pm)Isn’t the $32K price just the total of the lease payments, and not a purchase? Looks like that according to nissanusa webpage.
+5
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:56 pm)Absolutely – can you imagine paying $40K for a Coda now? Or a BYD ?
I think $25K is now the limit for compact EV. Anyone pricing above that needs to justify the extra cost or they are looking at miniscule sales.
BTW, in Japan Mitsubishi already reduced iMiEV price to about what Leaf costs there.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:59 pm)Total of lease payments for 3 years will be just around $12.5K @ $349/month.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (1:59 pm)I’m sure there are, but IMHO, the “Cat Fish” car has the target audience of commuters and city dwellers.
The Volt will cover long rangers as well as commuters and city dwellers, but for slightly more $$$.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:02 pm)I think that is a good/fair point. A BEV is certainly not for everyone, certainly not for you in your case. For regular long range travellers it is a none starter.
For most who do end up purchasing the Leaf, I imagine it will replace the 2nd/3rd/4th car in a family, where it can be used optimally. I can’t see a one car family (or person) making this jump, unless they are the inner city/non car owner type at the moment.
Nissan (or any manufacturer) really isn’t a threat to that market at all until they make the longer ranges available.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:03 pm)The Oregon credit is $1500 for a non-plug in hybrid. It is higher for a plug in, with the amount of rebate based on the battery size.
Both the Volt and Leaf qualify for the full $5K rebate….
Yep, $20K for a Leaf.
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:04 pm)or someone starts selling (or renting) a genset on a trailer for those occasional long trips.
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:05 pm)Lucky for most CA residents, climate here is pretty kind to Li packs.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:10 pm)I want this LEAF bad. Will pre-order for sure. At $25K it’s a steal. Great day indeed.
Still hyper excited by my Apple iPad coming this Saturday. I am totally stoked.
Hope I get as dizzy when I go to pickup my new LEAF in December as I am about to get this Saturday. woot.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:12 pm)We still do not have confirmation that the rebate CAN be used at point of sale. This is NOT ‘Cash For Clunkers’.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:12 pm)I wonder whether there is some provision in the federal rebate law that a company can claim the tax rebate on behalf of the customer if the car is leased (and thus owned by the leasing company) …
-2
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:19 pm)Carl, the iPad will be a hit. I can only imagine getting rid of my cumbersome laptop. All we need now is a way to access Office docs via Google or whatever. Then we also need a way to multitask application on the iPad. Once that is solved, many people will replace laptops by iPads I believe.
”
Still hyper excited by my Apple iPad coming this Saturday. I am totally stoked.
Hope I get as dizzy when I go to pickup my new LEAF in December as I am about to get this Saturday. woot.
“
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:20 pm)Aptera might as well close up shop today. Tesla you better watch your back as well. The big boys have come to play hardball!
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:22 pm)The rebate can’t be used at POS.
In general it is much easier to pass a law which gives tax rebates than something where the the government gives cash. The latter type will also have to done on a yearly basis ….
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:23 pm)I think an interesting question is how much additional EV range you get from a pure BEV compared to the 40 miles EV range from the Chevy Volt for the same price of the car. Maybe the answer is around 60 miles more so a total EV range from 100 miles, for some people that will be enough but not for everybody.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:30 pm)It’s cool that Volt is getting some press since almost every reference to Nissan’s announcement does some kind of compare to Volt’s yet-unannounced pricing.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:32 pm)#90
I understand, and I have never put much faith in the idea that it was going to happen. But the Nissan press release gives the strong impression that they have figured out a way to do it.
BTW, I think that another huge selling point, at least in SoCal, is the one occupant carpool lane access. A lot of Priuses were sold to LA area freeway commuters on that advantage alone, IMHO. didn’t the Bluebook say for awhile that a carpool lane sticker was worth a couple of thousand $ on the resale value? I think that those Prius stickers are about to sunset. I bet a lot of those people go directly to the Leaf. Does the Volt get that? I dunno.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:39 pm)One has to imagine that any car company with their foot in the EV market had sat up and took notice to this news today. I’m sure GM and Ford are stressed, but players like Aptera, Tesla, etc. have got to be freaking out. At the very minimum, Tesla has “the EV” on the market, but this announcement changes things. I personally like Tesla as a company, like the look of the cars, and sincerely hope they make it. But the uphill climb they are making suddenly got a lot steeper. Interesting times.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:51 pm)I agree that the US absence of a VAT puts us at a competitive disadvantage. But there’s nothing to stop us from also having a VAT. Basically, in the 20s the US had a massive imbalance between production and consumption. (Kind of like China does right now.) It’s arguably one of the major causes of the great depression. So, we slanted our tax code to encourage consumption.
Now, we have the opposite imbalance. So we should reorient our tax code to re-balance, and encourage production rather than consumption. That means a VAT with a commensurate decrease in the payroll tax. With possibly an income tax reduction. It doesn’t mean getting rid of the income tax altogether.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:52 pm)Excellent observations, although, as long as Tesla/Fisker can deliver – they’re targeting the “luxury” EV/EREV market ($20k+ higher) and should be okay, along with Fisker – if they deliver.
You’re right though, this changes everything and the big guys who don’t even have a real EV/EREV vehicle ready (not a converted ICE) have got to be wondering if Nissan is going to try and “Prius” the EV market here. GM could try to do the same thing to the EREV market but doesn’t seem to have that in their plans with the lower levels of production envisioned.
No dipping their toes in the water here, Nissan is going full throttle. Interesting times indeed.
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:52 pm)Well, how about the Canadin company “Zen”? I’ve seen their cars and they are really weak cars. I doubt they will be able to compete.
At least Tesla has a chance because cars apparently are truly unique so far. There is no electric car out there which can compare agains the taste demonstrated by Tesla so far.
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:56 pm)Looks like a really big winner for Nissan
Mar 30th, 2010 (2:57 pm)Don’t forget that Nissan already announced that they will be coming out with an Infinity version of the leaf that will compete head to head with Tesla’s sedan. Infinity G35 is pretty fancy for most Americans. Tesla and Fisker may still have the super high end market but there there is nothing stopping Nissan or GM from getting into the luxury market once things take off.
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:02 pm)For less than 10k, you can buy a brand new performance electric motorcycle with a 50 mile range. Top it off twice (I recommend fancy resorts) on the way and you’ll be at 101 miles with a full vehicle, well pampered to boot. Take the scenic route – you’ll be glad you did.
Just sayin’. You don’t have to tell me why that wouldn’t work for you.
The product variety and various price points and incentives are starting to ring the good enough right now bells pretty loud.
http://energycenter.org/index.php/incentive-programs/clean-vehicle-rebate-project/cvrp-eligible-vehicles
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:03 pm)There are a few profitable companies that make cars only for the high end consumer. Tesla might be able to do the same for high end EVs. But, given the rapid changes in battery technology, that’s an iffy proposition at best. They do have that alliance with Daimler, that might help them out. But Daimler is also focused on luxury cars….
I wish them the best, but their window of opportunity just got a whole lot smaller.
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:04 pm)I’d have to see it first, but if sometime in 2011 if i could get a leaf with a 3 year warranty, i’d like that. Doesn’t tie me down forever when better cars are available in 2014.
I am surprised they would lease the car but not the battery.
Could have a glut of leafs on the used car lots in 3 years as it will be old tech.
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:07 pm)Sorry My Bad
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:07 pm)Zenn stopped making cars a few months back. They never did make a truly highway-capable car. They are hanging their business on waiting for EEStor so they can sell drive-trains. It’d be a way big deal if that ever happened, but, not too many people are betting on it.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:08 pm)In my experience, most inner city/non car owners don’t own a car because either a)difficulty finding parking it, or b) because they can’t afford one. EVs solve a lot of problems. But not those. So I wouldn’t count on that demographic. At all.
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:10 pm)Other Annoucement News Today: FedEx is rolling out electric trucks!
http://dvice.com/archives/2010/03/fedex-rolls-out.php
I know someone here wanted an electric truck. Where do these things come from?
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:13 pm)I go out of the city for the weekend about once a month. And I will continue to do so when I move to the suburbs. During those weekends, I usually drive about 200 miles a day. I also do day trips every other month that again is anywhere from 150 to 300 miles a day. And I would only have the one car. So 100 miles of range wouldn’t work for me even if I were willing to use the full range. Which I’m not.
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:14 pm)DEFENDERS OF FREEDOM,
TODAY IS A GREAT DAY FOR ALL OF US. I DO NOT CARE IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE VOLT OR NOT.
NISSAN IS A SOLID COMPANY AND OFFERING THIS CAR AT $349/MONTH 36-MONTH LEASE AND $2,000 DOWN SEEMS TO BE A VERY ATTRACTIVE PRICE. I CAN TELL YOU I WILL PUT MY MONEY WHERE MY MOUTH IS AND I WILL ORDER AND TRY SUCH VEHICLE ASAP.
I KNOW THE LEAF MAY NOT SERVE EVERYONE. THAT SAID I CAN TELL YOU I BELIEVE THAT MOST PEOPLE DRIVE LESS THAN 70 MILES/DAY. IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS, I CAN TELL YOU I CAN COUNT LESS 3 TIMES I HAD TO DRIVE OVER 70 MILES/DAY. I WILL KEEP A SECOND OLD COMBUSTION ENGINE CAR JUST IN CASE WE RUN OUT OF ELECTRICITY DUE TO A NUCLEAR ATTACK OR SIMILAR.
BLESS AMERICA PLEASE.
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:15 pm)I wonder if sales of the Leaf will prompt Toyota to accelerate the release of the plug-in Prius?.. Things are going to get interesting this summer as oil begins its climb back to $100 a barrel.
+5
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:24 pm)I haven’t read each post here word for word, but did anyone mention the shear, utter INSANITY of our American government giving a $7500 tax break for anyone to buy a FOREIGN product when many of our own fellow Americans are unemployed and hurting badly?
THIS MAKES ME SO SICK I CAN’T SEE STRAIGHT!
I AM FURIOUS!
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:27 pm)This was always going to be the case. The new technology made it possible for a new car company, but it was never very likely.
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:27 pm)Just a follow up to my above post, lest anyone not know what I’m talking about. Please read the following article:
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:28 pm)Zipdrive, come on, that is probably the rare positive step this government has maintained. It is up to the American companies to step up and beat the comeptition, so instead the money goes toward GM, Tesla and Ford.
If you are furious because we are unemployed and the government is giving priorities to foreigners instead, you should really go to numbersusa.com and contribute.
zipdrive Says
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:24 pm) I haven’t read each post here word for word, but did anyone mention the shear, utter INSANITY of our American government giving a $7500 tax break for anyone to buy a FOREIGN product when many of our own fellow Americans are unemployed and hurting badly?
THIS MAKES ME SO SICK I CAN’T SEE STRAIGHT!
I AM FURIOUS!
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:29 pm)I live in Georgia which has the $5000 tax credit but Georgia I don’t think is an initial market for the Leaf. Tennessee is. Chattanooga is 100 miles north of Atlanta on I-75.
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:32 pm)Would the Volt qualify for this as well? Also I would think the 20% would be on the 32K not after the Fed Tax credit.
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:36 pm)When, oh when, will our National Government ever do something to promote and support our American businesses over the foreign competition. The Japanese must be laughing their heads off at our utter stupidity.
We are comitting national suicide by promoting the purchase of foreign products.
+4
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:42 pm)I think you need to read Nissan’s statements carefully. Here are two sentences from two separate paragraphs:
“Including the $7,500 federal tax credit for which the Nissan LEAF will be fully eligible, the consumer’s after-tax net value of the vehicle will be $25,280.”
“As a result of aggressive pricing and the availability of the $7,500 federal tax credit whose benefit is immediately included, Nissan will be able to offer a monthly lease payment beginning at $349, not including state or local incentives, which could further reduce the net cost of the Nissan LEAF.”
The first sentence is about purchasing, and says you will have the $7,500 credit after you’ve settled your taxes with Uncle Sam. The second sentence is about leasing. I’m not a lawyer, but I suspect it means that a Nissan Leasing company will buy the car and it will get the $7,500 credit, which it will pass along to you, ahead of time, through a low lease price.
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:43 pm)Add the same to the Volt it’s sure to be more!
If you add cost to one you have to add cost to the other if you’re going to compare. Otherwise you have a one way slanted comparison that’s apples to oranges. Seems to always be the problem here.
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:44 pm)If the lease price is estimated at $349/month nationwide, I am wondering what the price would look like in states with special rebates like California?
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:46 pm)Here’s another example of a lame comparison just to try and mask the “desirables” of the Volt.
Two differen’t battery capacities means two different times required to fully charge. trying to do it your way means that filling a 10 gallon tank takes less time than filling a 14 gallon tank, therefore the smaller tank is a better technology.
Just dumb arguments like this mystifies me when it comes from this forum of folks that I know are more capable.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:51 pm)Nissan starts producing them (the cars and the batteries) in the US next year (Tennessee I believe) and GM is right there with the Volt so I don’t feel bad about it – I’d rather have us as a nation start getting off foreign oil. Just my opinion of course.
-2
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:52 pm)To Stas Petersen @ 39:
Thanks Stas. It’s nice to know there is at least one other sane person in this world.
-10
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:52 pm)(click to show comment)
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:57 pm)To #71
“GM has the right long term idea with the EREV.”
Is 5 years a long term idea? I doubt it. I think Nissan has a much better 10-year even 15-years long term idea because 10 years from today, the price of the battery will be cheap enough to make the EV afordable with reasonable range (300 miles…) and the gas car is history.
to #117.
“utter INSANITY of our American government giving a $7500 tax break for anyone to buy a FOREIGN product when many of our own fellow Americans are unemployed and hurting badly”
Don’t forget all green technologies here in the US are providing jobs too. And those technologies need to start from somewhere. Those tax credit also apply to American EV cars too.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:02 pm)But that is, literally, only half the story. Nissan points out that the purchaser is eligible for a 50% tax credit on that (charger+installation) cost, so the net average is only $1,100.
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:04 pm)I totally agree. Based on the what I personally see happening with the Tesla owners, the pure EV car is indeed viable if priced right. It is practical for a number of people out there.
If that happens and the Leaf sales take off, then the Volt may be not justifiable. As the other poster said, if the infrastructure is in place, people will focus on the battery longevity as a parameter to decide which vehicle to buy.
Let’s see which technology will succeed or die. GM put lot of risk into this.
“…AnonymousProxy Says
Mar 30th, 2010 (3:52 pm) This should shake up GM. They say the Volt will leapfrog the Prius. But in the end, the BEV will leapfrog GM and GM will have to do what it does best….catch up.
The Volt was a good idea but when GM said they will not increase EV range but sell lower range battery packs to 20 miles EV, that tells me they are in the wrong direction. I thought the EREV was supposed to eventually increase range and reduce the Genset thus eventually get rid if the genset?
“
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:13 pm)GM also said they would have different battery size for prople thet wanted the range.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:18 pm)All I can say is that this is exciting. Let’s go!
-2
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:23 pm)1 word.
UGLY!!!!!!
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:24 pm)lol…..
dude, you had me ROTFLMAO!!!
That aint no stinkin truck!……lol
That’s a big azz utility delivery something. I think when we say “Truck”, it’s a pickup truck like the Silverado or Colrado.
/catchin my breath still…..you funny dude.
-3
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:26 pm)This does not leapfrog the Volt. Volt is the only car that you can drive daily and be 100% oil free and have the flexibility to take long trips. Plus the Volt looks nice. This looks like crap and once the drivability comparisons come out it won’t even be a challenge.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:26 pm)They mean for *Less* range.
http://gm-volt.com/2010/03/26/gm-exec-gen-3-voltec-battery-to-have-shortened-lifespan-simpler-shape-and-be-offered-in-smaller-ranges/
They also came out and said regardless of battery advancement they will not increase range from 40AER.
Sucks, I know.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:29 pm)Ever wondered how much we spend securing oil supplies for rest of the world ? Why do you think EU can afford universal health care and fantastic unemployment and other benefits ?
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:31 pm)Well, if you’re looking for performance from a BEV, then this is not the car….lol.
Niether is the iMiEv nor the Th!nk. The Ford Focus BEV is still an unknown.
Tesla will scratch that itch though.
Appearance wise, I don’t give a sh|t. I want completely off Oil for the most economic way I can. We have two old skool ICE cars for the long trips. The “Cat Fish” car will be more than adequate for my commute and I don’t care if I can’t reach the inlaws in it!
-2
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:35 pm)It was hard to miss the lack of details in Nissan’s rather useless sales announcement. Blatantly
missing was any info about range. Also, they made a claim of 30 minute recharges using
a special charging unit, which is not understandable. On the whole, nothing but a sales
blurb. The technology simply isn’t here yet for a practical battery-only vehicle. But, since the likely buyers likely entertain preposterously inaaccurate ideas of just how ineffectual even a couple of tens of million of such vehicles will have, Ghosn is simply playing to the public’s ignorance. As usual. This is exactly the same vehicle Ghosn declared “ridiculous” just a year or so ago. He was right.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:44 pm)This makes things very interesting indeed.
Especially regarding the still unannounced THINK City pricing and the planned U.S. THINK facility here in Elkhart, Indiana.
As I mentioned the other day, I’ve been reading several predictions that the THINK City might be priced around $20,000 after the $7500 Federal Tax Credit. With this LEAF pricing news, I gotta believe it’s more likely now.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:48 pm)Wow, that’s a GREAT price. These are going to sell like crazy and so are the Volts. More electrics on the roads the better! I can now see my garage in 2012. A volt on one side and a Leaf on the other. I already have two, 220V 40 amp lines good to go. Good time ahead!
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:49 pm)This works for me. My plan was to take the cost, less tax credit, out of my IRA/401K and finance the $7500 to the following April as needed. Zero-interest loan from the dealer works just great. Time to talk to my dealer about a deposit again.
+5
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:49 pm)I thought it was 100 miles? Do you know different? Just curious…
IMHO, they are actually saying 30 minute recharge to 80% full. That’s normal for Li packs.
I haven’t visited their propaganda site yet so i’m just going by typical numbers of fast charge.
Tesla thinks otherwise and so does Nissan. If GM came out with a BEV would you still think the same?
+6
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:52 pm)Whoa! Check your calculations again.
#1. Both the Leaf and the Volt claim to get about 5 miles per kWh. That means $4.00 of electricity at 15 cents takes you somewhere around 120 to 150 miles. Are you claiming the Golf TDI gets mileage like that?
#2. California Public Utilities Commission says PG&E (which does use 50% natural gas) emits 0.524 lbs CO2 per kWh. The EPA says burning diesel emits 22.2 lbs CO2 per gallon. Your claim of 60 MPG equivalent means 22.2 lbs per 60 miles, which is roughly 42kWh per 60 miles for PG&E. Are you saying that Nissan and GM are both 3 1/2 times too low in in their usage claims of 12 kWh per 60 miles?
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:52 pm)I bet oil prices will go up between now and December when both the Volt and the “Cat Fish” car are out and available. After December, it will go down for no friggin reason just as it went up.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (4:55 pm)Many have talked about the price which I personally believe to be great, but many have been very misleading on the lease. Please keep in mind this lease is with 1999k down. So that would effectively add $55.53 a month to the 349. Also, it probably doesn’t include any taxes either which would bring the cost up another 20-40 dollars a month too. The price is very good overall in my opinion, but the lease may not be so great as it may seem initially. This does put pressure on the Volt though pricing though-I love it. Great job Nissan. Now what is the warranty on that battery again? And can I really believe in that 50 miles from home before I have to turn around and not get stranded. Just some thoughts.
Hawk
Mar 30th, 2010 (5:05 pm)The page you point to includes only vehicles currently available. If you look in their Implementation Manual you will see that Light-Duty Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles are eligible for a $3000 rebate.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (5:06 pm)I’m hoping that the Volt goes for around $27,000 after the federal tax credit. I think GM would easily sell out all the Volts they can make for first couple of years at that price. If GM wants customers begging their local GM dealers to get more Volts in stock that’s the price what would do it.
I suspect that GM would LOVE to have problems like potential customers mad at them because they aren’t making enough cars to meet demand.
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (5:08 pm)On that note and no offense but these rebates and incentives should be only for “US Citizens”!!
What’s worse than giving money away is giving money and jobs away to those wo are not here leagally.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (5:10 pm)~$33k is pretty aggressive pricing, all right. My hat is off to them. That’s going to force a lot of hands. I was kind of under the impression that most of the EVs that were slated to come out were “priced to niche” (Especially with the iMiev around $50k in Europe). But Nissan’s clearly thrown down the “priced to move” gauntlet. And stomped on it a few times for good measure.
This may change a lot. I was worried that steep prices and too many manufacturers would be a large threat to the success of EVs since sales would be too poor to support any manufacturer.
But this kind of early pricing will keep the dilettante manufacturers out of the market and actually generate real volume. Solves both problems at once, I think by basically requiring any manufacturer to pursue a true volume plan or forget it.
Does anybody know what the solar panel is for? If it’s just on a spoiler it can’t be very big… Is it for cabin/battery conditioning or just to replenish any discharge to the security system or whatever while it’s parked for extended periods?
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (5:12 pm)YES! You are correct and I think you pointed that out last time.
)
My bad. It’s $3,000.00 for the Volt…….can’t teach an ol dog.
Thanks for the correction!!!!
They will include products as they are available. The “Cat Fish” car is in there but it is not available yet as well. Their provisions for a PHEV will cover the Volt.
Mar 30th, 2010 (5:31 pm)Bet the Volt price come in the same price as the leaf.
Mar 30th, 2010 (5:48 pm)It’s possible. There’s a trade off for both.
The “Cat Fish” car adds battery for the space of the genset.
The Volt has less battery but has a genset to occupy the space more batts can hide.
If the additional cost for the pack = the additional cost for the genset, then I think you’re right.
but do either profit from their products? I hear GM will lose for some time. Does anyone know if Nissan will lose $$$ on the “Cat Fish” car?
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:09 pm)GM Volt dot com is fair to all the alternative energy vehicle means. Fuel cell, EEstor, $3k cars from India, water cars, and electric mass transit. Consumers now have several options to move away from burning gasoline. A recent survey claims that nearly 3 in 10 (29 percent) require a daily range of at least 200 miles from their EV.
The questions are:
How soon and how many other EV will be offered for under $40k?
Will the future buyer remain in love with the hybrid design as EV rise in popularity?
With the economic events of these last 3 years behind us. The citizen has been left with a burning desire to be able to control his or her cash flow. We all need to get from point A to point B on a daily basis.
Now that we are on the doorstep to EV ownership. What will the buying curve look like? Will the $22,000-$28,000 6 cylinder car remain popular? Will loyalty to $50k high horsepower foreign brands continue?
The youth of today are more aware of environmental concerns than any previous generation. I believe they are latching onto battery vehicles. With the entire generation wearing the shift to EV as a badge of honor.
=D-Volt
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:15 pm)This is unlikely being that the announced low production numbers will support a higher price. No need to lower the price. One thing that will change this balance is a government mandate of 100k units per year sold to meet CAFE standards.
=D-Volt
-2
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:19 pm)That too Warren. Good point. Thanks.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:21 pm)Well, let’s see. If I were to purchase the car and put $2000 + $7500 down I would still owe close to $28,000 after tax and license, at least in California. (I’m going to ignore state rebates, since you did.) If I could get a 5 year 5 1/4% auto loan for $28K, that would be about $532/month. Your calculation of $349+$56+$40 = $445 still looks pretty good, and mine still hasn’t allowed any adjustment for the fact that I might have to wait a year to get my $7500 back.
Of course if I lease for five years I don’t own a car at the end of that but, as others have noted, things are progressing so fast that a five-year-old gen 1 EV may not be worth much.
What I really like about the lease is that I don’t trust the Leaf battery to last ten years, since it has no thermal protection and will need to be discharged much deeper than the Volt to get the claimed range.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:28 pm)My name will go on the list as soon as Winnipeg gets this.
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:31 pm)You get a HELL YEAH & AMEN TO THAT!!!!!
I wish I could give you +100!
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:31 pm)Mr. Black, You are obviously in the pocket of the foreign auto companies, or are not quite bright enough to follow a process through to its logical conclusion.
The USA can’t continue to innovate and invent everything in the world and then give away the manufacturing benefits of these products to other countries. It will impoverish us all eventually. The world’s playing field is NOT level. It is rigged by other countries to stick it to America at every turn. We are suckers to continue to let this happen to us. It is BANKRUPTING us.
Sorry to be so harsh, but I am ANGRY at our government for selling us down the river.
See this article to understand what I am talking about:
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:39 pm)ps. I perused the numbers.com website. They have some good things to say. Thanks.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:48 pm)#154
I believe this. +1
Our generation is a lot more aware than the last one, come to that. These issues didn’t even register with my parents, and I am pretty aware and involved, if I do say so myself.
And the next generation even more so, as you so correctly point out. My younger son has degrees heavily weighted toward environmental studies, and works for a nation wide consulting firm doing same. Those degrees and that industry didn’t even exist when I was in college in the ’60s.
I believe that we are in a race to save ourselves as a species before it’s too late. You comment causes me to reflect that maybe there’s still a chance.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:49 pm)I was just talking to an EE friend of mine yesterday, who works at one of the selected utilities that will be getting several Volts for charging system electrical design/infrastructure studies.
We had talked about the Leaf. I said that a fair price for it would not be above $26.000. Seems that is the number that jives today.
No, I disagree entirely that the Leaf in December (sounds like a song, doesn’t it), is going to put any pressure whatsoever on Volt. (You don’t have to be first to be the best). They are fairly distinct markets and transportation purposes that do not overlap for market demand.
Also, no, I disagree entirely that either Volt, Leaf, or anything else will cause the shut down of any EV startups, because if someone wants their current ride electrified, the technologies are emerging toward the aftermarket that are making this evermore an efficient and economical feasibility for conversions.
When more and more people drive electrically, they will have no questions left whatsoever that they want a BEV right away if the job can be done efficiently and reliably. (Controller Area Networks, or CAN, are the only current slow-down to the processes for 2005′s and newer according to Austin EV EE’s, whom have successfully decrypted the CAN buss for the speedometer, etc.).
But for most of us here, it is VOLT, VOLT , VOLT. The three most important words in the English language.
+4
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:56 pm)So you think even people with immigrant visas, who work and pay taxes are not here legally ?!
Ofcourse, only those who pay taxes can get tax rebates ….
+5
Mar 30th, 2010 (6:59 pm)We are sitting here on the front lines of a huge sea change in the auto industry as we know it. All for the best, IMHO. It’s been said here many times before, but it really is an exciting time to be alive.
All credit to Dr. Dennis for chronicling the history of this momentous change.
I have said many times that I am not going to buy a Nissan. Even so, all credit to Carlos Ghosn for his vision and guts in taking this groundbreaking project forward.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (7:05 pm)#114
I wonder if the Japanese government is going to give a tax credit to their citizens who buy Volts, LOL? It’s hard not to agree with what you say. +1
On the other hand, we can still vote with our wallets and checkbooks, which is what I intend to do. As mad as we may get at our government, we had all better do what we can as individuals, or we are just as guilty as they are, IMHO.
LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (7:17 pm)Every manufacturer putting an EV PHEV or BEV in their lineup is a win for America and a loss for the Middle-East oil barons. May all of them announce, and may all of them have excellent pricing.
+3
Mar 30th, 2010 (7:23 pm)It wasn’t hard for me to notice your blatant lack of reading comprehension.
“missing was any info about range”
100 miles range on the EPA city drive cycle.
“Also, they made a claim of 30 minute recharges using
a special charging unit, which is not understandable.”
What’s not to understand? The 30 minute charge is using a high power charger that is connected to 480V 3 phase. For a fleet owner this is a real possibility.
“The technology simply isn’t here yet for a practical battery-only vehicle.”
The technology for a 100 mile car certainly is here. The question is the market viability.
Mar 30th, 2010 (7:27 pm)#1
+41? Seems to me I can remember a few times when it went the other way, LOL. Anyway, well said, as usual. My +1 is in there somewhere. You couldn’t have picked a better time to break cover old friend. Don’t be a stranger.
Did you see today where someone at Chrysler said that they were probably going to break even for the year? Jim Healy used to play a sound bite of someone like Earl Scheib saying Ohhhhhhkay! GM???
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (7:42 pm)Dude… A couple of suggestions:
Relax. Take a deep breath. Fix your caps lock key because it must be stuck.
Next, try not to focus so much on the manufacturer of the vehicle. The benefit is to the consumer who is willing to take that step and buy a vehicle that reduces America’s dependence on foreign oil. Yeah, I agree with you that tax money should focus on American products, but hey, Nissan beat us to the punch. Let the consumer get the break. You’re more than welcome to get angry if the program runs out of money just before the VOLT hits the showrooms!
After that, try some decaffeinated coffee. It’s just as tasty as the regular kind. Be cool.
Mar 30th, 2010 (7:51 pm)Thank you, being aware of that.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (7:53 pm)Guess I’m buying a new car on April 20th!
Yee Haw!
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (7:55 pm)I agree 1000 % THis money will come out of the pockets of the unemployed, the overtaxed and every single american. THey(the US GOvt) should have required the car be made in america with american parts and american labor. Just like japan did with their Cash for clunkers program ensuring no FOREIGN car were purchased with GOvt money. BUt this GOvt is a bunch weak spined sellouts when it come to trade issues.
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:13 pm)“THey(the US GOvt) should have required the car be made in america with american parts and american labor. ”
Boy, I do not think any car currently made would fit all those requirements. Perhaps a requirement for assembly in the USA would make some sense. This could encourage Nissan to start up new manuf. in a US city. The additional jobs would be appreciated by many out of work autoworkers.
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:14 pm)I believe they will backpedal from this. What makes sense to GM today may not tomorrow. As long as they keep advancing EREVs, they will ultimately make ranges that the public demands. If not, someone else will as long as EVs catch on.
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:17 pm)So is Tag no longer returning, since they removed his mask?
I cannot remember a day w/o at least one post by the old guy (well, he’s not that old
)
-5
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:20 pm)Must agree. Looks like Volt is going down the toilet, even before release. What do you expect of Bankrupt Motors?
A year ago I predicted Leaf will eat Volt’s lunch.
Now we know why Lutz was canned. If it turns out that the Volt is a parallel hybrid, then the Believers here are in for a rude awakening.
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:21 pm)Thanks Randy. Nice to know there are some other sane people in this world. God help us.
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:24 pm)Right on as usual …
+4
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:25 pm)You know that Nissan is retooling their Smyrna, TN plant to manufacture 150,000 Leafs and 200,000 batteries, right ?
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10372922-48.html
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:27 pm)I agree with this as regards to non-descript BEVs unless someone like Think can sell underneath them for profit. I don’t see a threat for Tesla Roadster or Model S. It is a big roadblock for their third gen vehicle. If they can come through with the S anywhere near to what the concept promises, it will do fine. They will then still have room to enter the more mainstream market a little above the leaf, at least as the leaf is today. A $35k Tesla third vehicle with better performance, better design, and 140 miles of range would sell just fine. People will come to realize the Leaf’s 100 mile range is really 60 miles for useful life. This still works for plenty of people but not nearly what 100 actual useful life will.
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:31 pm)I do now.
Thanks!
-4
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:34 pm)Corvette Guy,
Just thinking what benefits each one of us now is shortsighted. That’s just Ayn Rand extreme selfishness. What about the future of America? This country must survive into the future for the good of the human race. We are the best thing this planet ever had and I don’t want to see it go down the drain because wse only think of our own immediate needs.
We are special, and I CARE about the long term survival of our nation.
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:41 pm)Very good point. And the 40 miles battery on the Volt is in effect 45 miles. Because the driver doesn’t need a five mile safety factor to reach an outlet.
=D-Volt
BTW:You don’t want to be in an EV with just a few miles charge. This world can throw a lot of things at a driver. A year ago I was in one of my workplace EV’s and limped back home to an outlet with next to no charge left. Was I sweating? Yes. Was I wondering what I would tell the boss? Yes. Have I come close to this condition again? No. I use just 70% of the range now.
-1
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:42 pm)That is an urban legend that GM supported and people bought in to. The extra motor, extra controller, engine, double motor housing, engine mounts, NVH paneling, exhaust, engine cooling, gas tank, gas pump, gas cap, filling lines, EREV control software development, etc cost a LOT more than the ficticious $2500 floated around. The is a cheaper glider with a cheaper powertrain. It is simpler cheaper to produce and will have a cheaper price. This is OK Volt fans. It’s effective usefull life real world range is around 60 miles. It does not compete with the Volt except for those that do not value a daily range greater than 60 miles or the Volt’s more refined housing.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:43 pm)While I agree that it’s important to reduce American’s independence on foreign oil, I think the consumer, in general, gets way too many breaks in this country price wise. We don’t pay the real price for anything. And that’s not sustainable.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:46 pm)The scary part is that it is likely the Nissan Leaf will have a higher USA made content than the GM Volt.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:48 pm)Just because the Leaf will be manufactured here eventually is no comfort. The CONTOL of the company is ALL Japanese, and I don’t like how they do business – it is one-sided and arrogant, and is designed to put our American companies out of business. Period.
And the PROFITS go straight overseas to JAPAN INC.
And they don’t create jobs here either, they merely SHIFT jobs from American companies here to the foreign owned companies here. That is if we are crazy enough to buy from them and not our own American companies.
We must stop sending our money overseas by the shipload.
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:49 pm)Why is the EU trying to shed cradle to grave entitlements as we are rushing (50% + a few votes) headlong into them?
If you want to hold up Europe as an example, keep up with their current events.
I have spent my whole freaking life (California) with people comparing us to Europe, and I’m sick to freaking death of it. Yes Europe is great in a lot of ways… but Yes they get a free ride on a lot of stuff. Europe is not a panacea, not a utiopia. There is no wildlife, no wilderness, not as much freedom there, and we protect them from themselves and others. Europe has a lot of good, yes, but so do we… in different ways.
/rant off
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:53 pm)If the Volt can get 40 miles on 8kwh, the Leaf can get 96 miles on 19.2kwh of battery capacity.. if you choose to use only 60 of those miles then that is your choice. My advice?.. if you start to worry about making it home slow down to 20mph and turn the AC off. At 20mph the Leaf may have a range of 150 miles.
Mar 30th, 2010 (8:55 pm)A meaningful and cogent statement by a GM spokesperson. This simple quote is very noteworthy IMO. GM should be positively rewarded for such things.
Mar 30th, 2010 (9:02 pm)The simple quote might be meaningful and such, but I don’t get how such a vague statement is cogent.
Mar 30th, 2010 (9:09 pm)Customers can start reserving a Leaf in the U.S. on April 20 and Nissan is aiming for 25,000 orders by December. It hopes to build and sell 50,000 of the cars around the world during the first model year. Production is starting at an existing factory in Oppama, Japan, south of Tokyo, and will expand to Nissan’s factory in Smyrna, Tenn., in 2012.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100330/ap_on_bi_ge/nissan_electric_car
Mar 30th, 2010 (9:10 pm)I agree the range anxiety paranoia is way overblown but the reality of lifetime range should be properly assesed. The Volt’s design is to have 8kwh available throughout useful life. The LEAF STARTS with an initial capacity (19.2kwh in your quote which I assume came from Nissan) but reduces from there. If you plan ti own it for 5 years and expect 80 miles throughout life, you will be dissappointed. BEV buyers should be buying based on end of expected use range in adverse conditions, not first day off the lot range.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for EVs of all varieties (BEV, EREV, or otherwise) and always have been volcal about this. BUT I want buyers going in with eyes wide open so there aren’t many dissappointment stories 3-5 years from now. Unrealistic expectations and overzealous claims have killed or delayed a lot of new techs, including EVs.
+2
Mar 30th, 2010 (9:24 pm)There are a lot of things to like about the Leaf, and when I read the price I was almost ready to ditch the Volt and jump on the Leaf bandwagon… then I saw a picture of the Leaf again and I wanted to wretch. Call me superficial, but the Leaf is honestly one of the worst looking cars I’ve ever seen. It reminds me of the AMC Pacer or maybe the Gremlin… just awful.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (9:25 pm)From Webster online:
Cogent-
1 : having power to compel or constrain
2 a : appealing forcibly to the mind or reason : convincing b : pertinent, relevant
I see it falling squarely in line with 2a-b. The Leaf pricing is relevent to the Volt and it will affect their pricing thought process but not significantly. At least, that is how I read the statement. It seems much better better than the typical corporate speak that have been more like:
We applaud Nissan for joining us in the electrification of the automobile and look forward to transformations that these products will bring. Our team is hard at work on our marketing strategy for the Volt and they will evaluate all relevent information as they formulate a plan. We will have a really good price for the Volt at the end of this process. Stay tuned.
Mar 30th, 2010 (9:25 pm)I don’t think you understood a thing of what I wrote – apparently an angry man is not very bright.
I’m saying we are spending way too much subsidizing oil. Real price of a barrel would be $480 once you add back all the socialized costs.
Mar 30th, 2010 (9:35 pm)July 24/25, 2010 are the dates of the forthcoming “High Voltage Music Festival” in London. A good opportunity to show off the Ampera?
=D-Volt
Mar 30th, 2010 (9:44 pm)Wonder what the price going to be? $32,000, $31,000 .
Mar 30th, 2010 (9:52 pm)Yawn, another ugly car that I will not buy.
Now an AWD Volt… that’s interesting!
Mar 30th, 2010 (10:03 pm)Then I guess you would say the Leaf pricing itself is cogent, but I would not call the statement by a GM exec cogent.
Mar 30th, 2010 (10:14 pm)The PROFITS go to Tokyo stock exchange ticker 7201.
Japan’s stock market does not have restrictions on foreign ownership, just like ours. You or I can buy it.
Now you’re not even making sense. An American working for GM is virtuous, but an American working for Nissan isn’t?
Mar 30th, 2010 (10:15 pm)Apparently, apparently… appearances…
Lots of costs are not socialized… like America’s commitment and contribution to Europe’s security structure.
You were not listening to me… My cri de coeur was that it is not fair to hold America to some kind of European gold-standard ideal.
I have listened to that my whole life and I am tired of it. My POV, IM Humble O…
Oh, and anger is entirely appropriate sometimes… I believe you would call it ” passion ” if you happened to agree with me.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (10:21 pm)Europe is not a utopia by any stretch. And they certainly have a lot of problems. And we definitely do subsidize them in many ways. Even aside from defense spending. I hate that the American consumer winds up picking up the entire tab for pharmaceutical innovation. It’s especially galling that we have a trade deficit in pharmaceuticals. If the profits are here, the jobs should be too, IMHO.
But they do some things better than we do. And there’s no reason we shouldn’t learn from their success in those areas.
Mar 30th, 2010 (10:22 pm)They state a 24kwh pack. no idea how long they will warrant the battery, they have made several statements from 3/36k miles to 10/150k miles before the battery loses 20% capacity. Apparently they use a variation on the lithium manganese spinel that LG uses but with a tougher separator.
Lots of detail here:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html
high power cells but heavy, last 7 years before capacity drops to 80%. Designed for very fast charging to 60% in 5 minutes. Similar energy and power density to A123 cells, not like LG cells at all. Apparently very tough cells.
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (10:37 pm)Toyota trades on the NYSE, as an ADR. But as a practical matter, 97% is owned by Japanese shareholders. That means a net wealth transfer from the US to Japan.
I’m not sure about Nissan, but I believe that Renault is the largest individual owner. I believe Renault is publicly traded, but the French government owns roughly 15% and from what I’ve heard calls most of the shots. Regardless, I doubt there’s much US ownership.
But that’s not the point. The point is the engineering and top management jobs are all in French/Japan. As well as much of the innovation spillovers. Whereas GM and Ford hire American engineers, designers, management, etc. They also tend to have more US content.
Of course not. I don’t blame anyone for taking any job offered. At least, as long as it’s legal. And doesn’t involve risking the world’s economy for private temporary payoffs. His point was that there’s no aggregate increase in employment. For every Nissan car sold instead of a Ford car or GM car, there is a net job transfer out of the US. Even though they obviously do have some US content. (And the more the better, IMHO.)
Mar 30th, 2010 (10:41 pm)The lessor is entitled to the tax credit. (The consumer as you know is the lessee). So you don’t have to do anything. The $349/month figure is what you pay. If you buy the car at the end of the lease period you won’t be entitled to any part of the credit because it will be a resale.
Just eyeballing the numbers I’d guess the lease rate is 9% or so. Not terrible at all.
Mar 30th, 2010 (10:44 pm)That lease is looking more attractive all the time, eh?
Mar 30th, 2010 (10:50 pm)Yes, especially when they are announcing a new higher capacity battery very soon. That big 24kwh pack will not be discharged too deeply by the average 40 mile commuter, it will last forever.
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:00 pm)I, for one, welcome our new Nissan overlords.
But seriously, I’m very impressed by the low price. Well done, Nissan.
The GM is still a better match for the US market . . . we need the longer range and the ability to charge up overnight with a 110V outlet is nice.
The more EVs, the better!
+1
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:19 pm)Many posts comparing Leaf vs Volt. They are not in the same market. Many want a pure BEV, are happy with its range limitations and don’t want to lug around an IEC. Many more cannot live within the BEV range limitation and the Volt EREV is the best solution for them.
Glad to see aggressive Leaf pricing. Nissan is hoping for 25k orders by December, I wouldn’t be surprised that they achieve that mark by June.
Some have shown desire for GM to make a direct Leaf competitor using Spark or Cruze body. Maybe, but I think the easy and best answer is simply to make two versions of the Volt, replacing the ICE with equivalent weight of batteries. This would be quick to market and the Volt’s higher class will attract many buyers to pay a few $ more.
I agree with those who have said the Leaf price puts a lot of pressure on many new BEV start-ups, particularly the Th!nk and Fisker Nina. I also agree that it will have little impact on Fisker Karma or Tesla Model S. However I disagree with the argument against the Aptera. The Aptera is sufficiently unique that it will have its own following and will do well, although I don’t envision it to be high volume.
My last point is about the future. I am very optimistic about new battery tech providing large gains is mileage and reduced price. I am not as optimistic about the power sources. Wind, solar, and geothermal all have their place, but on-demand cheap, pollution free base power does not seem to be in the works. There is a solution in the LFTR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk but this is never mentioned by anyone in government or utility business. If we did have LFTRs then BEVs would be so cheap to run that SUVs would make a comeback as efficiency would no longer be a concern.
Mar 30th, 2010 (11:49 pm)Looks like you are building a strawman – who said anything about EU being the golden std ?
My point is just that the tax rebate going to foreign made cars is nothing compared to all these hidden subsidies. I wish more people understood that and demanded better policies.
+3
Mar 31st, 2010 (12:11 am)Why should they buy our software if we don’t buy their cars ? Can you have selective trade ? Only if you rule colonies like Britain did.
Trade is a two way street – if we erect barriers, so can they.
BTW, is it better to transfer wealth to Japan or to Saudi princes – either by driving cars or doing business with companies who have major Saudi holdings – Citi, News corp (yes, Fox news fame) etc. With the money we send to middle east, they can buy 25% or more of every S&P 500 company in the next decade or so. Think about that. They also get to weigh in on who heads the company ..
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=alHEM4TJgX7Y
+2
Mar 31st, 2010 (12:28 am)We have a rather large trade deficit with Japan. That means that we buy a lot more from them than they do from us. And, by the way, they already have substantial barriers to their market. It’s way past time for us to erect reciprocal barriers to them.
I am all for balanced trade. As long as they let us pay for our imports with exports instead of debt, we both wind up better off. This unbalanced situation benefits neither party in the end. It unbalances both economies.
From a political stability point of view, obviously, we’re better off transferring wealth to Japan. And from an environmental view (which matters a great deal to me as well), we need to get off of oil. And, the volatile nature of oil means, economically, the sooner we find alternatives the better.
But from an economic point of view, you’re much better off buying natural resources than technology. For many reasons. The most valuable industries when it comes to economic development are those that result in a lot of jobs. That results in spreading the wealth, which creates or helps maintain the middle class. Also, no matter what we do, we can’t have a domestic oil industry. But protection could lead to a viable electric car industry. And innovation spillovers are an important source of economic growth. And the only one that has made life better in the aggregate. And manufacturing leads to many more innovation spillovers than natural resource extraction.
By the way, having too many natural resources rarely benefits the citizens of the country having those resources. Oil is a major reason Saudi Arabia is so repressive. Oil and diamonds have supported some of the worst dictators and violent civil wars in Africa. There are exceptions–Norway, Australia, Canada, Botswana, etc. Even the US to some extent. But they are the exception rather than the rule.
Mar 31st, 2010 (12:46 am)Yup. +3 rather than +1 since this is a more subtle point than the average good point.
I’m just disappointed that GM took the tentative but safer path. Hopefully it will work out because it’s probably too late at this point to try and ramp up production.
Mar 31st, 2010 (1:52 am)Well, if we were not pigs, the Yen appreciation would take care of it. Afterall unlike renminbi Yen is fully floated. See my other posts on enormous hidden subsidies we pay for oil – which forces us into more and more debt.
Ofcource. But it is much better to export more than import less (atleat under Business As Usual scenario). What can we export more ? POTUS wants to double exports … Unfortunately we can’t do what the British did with China to export enough to buy silk and tea
I don’t buy that at all. Afterall a resident of KSA is much better off than North Korea or Burma.
BTW, you should add UK too. But now that North Sea is in terminal decline I expect major problems for the pond.
+2
Mar 31st, 2010 (1:54 am)Uh..oh..GM already put out video on youtube saying Volt is better than the Leaf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K9kh654av4&feature=player_embedded
Mar 31st, 2010 (2:55 am)I would love to get rid of oil subsidies hidden or otherwise. I’ve argued for a gas tax at every possible opening. To the point where I think other posters here are probably sick of reading me talk about it.
However, IMHO, the trade deficit is more about the dollar being the world’s reserve currency. Basically American debt is very competitive. Yes. The yuan floats. But the Japanese government still buys US treasures. So do regular Japanese investors. And that raises the value of the dollar, and it crowds out other Americans exports. I won’t even go into the yen carry trade since that’s no longer a factor. At least at the moment.
Also, imports and exports aren’t perfect substitutes. The US no longer produces TVs or cameras. That means if we’re going to buy them, without competitive exports, we’re going to run a trade deficit. But if we don’t have enough competitive exports, and the exporting countries don’t like our debt, we won’t be able to buy them, period. Which means that we will have to pay high enough interest rates that they will want to buy our debt. Unless and until we develop the capacity to produce them on our own. Or find a competitive export.
Theoretically, it would be. But so far I haven’t heard of any good suggestions to make that happen. There are things we can do that would would help. Industrial policy. Cutting the corporate income tax. Getting stronger intellectual property protections, so that other countries actually pay for some of that pirated software. Removal of some export restrictions. Etc. However, I doubt that would be enough. We also need to find ways to make imports more expensive. Like a VAT. Or tariffs. And targeting subsidies to goods made here rather than abroad.
The list was not meant to be comprehensive. I agree that the UK spread the wealth. Although it may have led to some economic distortions. (As you pointed out, one of the problems with natural resources is that they generally run out.) Google “dutch disease.” Or watch the movie Blood diamond.
Mar 31st, 2010 (2:58 am)I’m hoping that they meant it when they said that they can ramp up production if they need to.
+3
Mar 31st, 2010 (3:49 am)Thanks Nissan, for starting the end of the ICEage @ an affordable price point !!!
When the Leaf is available in the PNW, you’ve got my purchase, $25K, $30K, whichever!!!
Hopefully GM will follow suit with similar pricing for the Volt fans!!!
Beautiful Day to GO EV !!!
+1
Mar 31st, 2010 (5:46 am)==============
Exactly ,thats the idea ,same as japan did with their cash for clunkers ,putting in so many restrictions that only their own domestic production qualifies for the rebate. IE prius.
+1
Mar 31st, 2010 (5:47 am)I am not a fan of pure EV at the this time.
However, Nissan did a very good thing here.
I have been screaming that a pure EV is a niche market. I still think that way, however
the price is very good and may very well raise demand.
Nice job Nissan.
+1
Mar 31st, 2010 (6:13 am)On top of that, I just saw in the news that 75% of the money for green technology initiitatives is going overseas. (the tech that is going to create green jobs in the US and help to lead us out of the recession). 75% of our money sent right out of the country to help other countries build a lead in green technology manufacturing.
On topic,
I would not buy the Nissan but it is great that it is hitting the market at a relatively affordable price. Affordable electrics from the big manufactures is now a reality.
Mar 31st, 2010 (7:16 am)LAURAM @203, 205, et al.
Thanks Laura – for putting it way more elegantly than I ever could.
+1
Mar 31st, 2010 (9:08 am)If you buy a Nissan made in the US instead of a Ford made in Mexico, doesn’t that bring jobs to the US?
Mar 31st, 2010 (3:49 pm)I was at the NY Autoshow today, and Nissan was not giving a purchase option, lease only at $349/month. Will see what they say tommorrow. They also said that Nashville would be an “early” city for selling Leafs because of the headquarters being their. Also indicated sales cities would be limited only by training of dealer techs etc. Sorry if I leaft the test drive before it was over, I think I was talking to Trent during a critical announcement and thought it was over. Would have liked to have met more people.
Apr 1st, 2010 (11:52 am)Here in Chicago, my experience is a lot different. The people I’ve known without cars didn’t have one because of the ease of public transportation and cabs. In effect, they didn’t see the need for one. So not a zero mkt demand, but a low one for them. They wouldn’t drive much, anyway, so the battery’s variable-cost advantage is overwhelmed by the fixed cost disadvantage, at anywhere near current sticker prices.
-1
Apr 4th, 2010 (8:39 am)GM and Ford need to offer plug-in hybrid sedans that are substantially under $30 k with the fed tax credit……… I agree with the poster who said that the US has a disadvantage because our defense of Europe costs us a lot, and causes our tax burden on business (and everyone) to rise. But the solution is STOP DEFENDING EUROPE, TAIWAN, SOUTH KOREA, ETC. Withdraw our troops and let them defend themselves, or not. Let China take Taiwan if it wants. Secure our own borders, repeal the reckless unconstitutional deficit spending of Obama (esp. healthcare “reform” and the ongoing wars) and Bush (Medicare prescription drug “entitlement” and the Iraq and Afghanistan nation-building money pits, etc), and lower our corporate tax burden so our car companies et al. can really compete…………………………………………………..