2010 will end with the introduction of two eagerly anticipated electric cars, the GM Volt, and the Nissan Leaf.
Perhaps more eagerly awaited than the cars themselves is their MSRPs. More discussion, speculation, and innuendo have been applied to what these numbers will be than almost any other aspect of the vehicles.
The Volt’s final price remains unknown, and will not be revealed until at least May or perhaps later in the summer. Estimates vary from low to high 30s before a $7500 tax credit.
Nissan has gone on record promising to reveal the Leaf’s official price in April when the company will begin taking $100 preorders. It is expected the car will be offered either as a full purchase or with a separate battery lease in the US.
A new report in the Mainichi Japan claims to have obtained the Leaf’s expected MSRP.
“The automaker has decided to set the sales price of its new model for the Japanese market below 4 million yen,” it is written.
4 million Japanese Yen currently converts to $44,300 USD .
Another version of the report indicates the car will range anywhere from 3.5 million yen to 4 million yen, thus putting the lower limit at $38,600.
Nissan plans to sell 500,000 units globally and 150,000 in the US by 2012.
“My understanding is the article out of Japan is speculative, and we have no comment,” Nissan spokesperson Catherine Zachary told GM-Volt.com. “We have yet to disclose Nissan LEAF pricing in the U.S. or in any global market.”
If the Leaf does go sale in the US for $40,000, that would place it in the same price range as the Volt is expected. Which car would you rather have for that money?
Source (Mainichi)
+16
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:14 am)At $40K you can kiss 500,000 units a year goodbye MR G. Especially since you have to announce your price first and GM and ford who are releasing later can undercut the leaf. Puns are fun!
All assuming that this report is accurate.
Good morning all and good news for the volt.
+8
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:32 am)I will never buy a pure BEV.
Too many “what-ifs”.
Also, I believe fast-charging a 200-mile BEV is inherently dangerous, and battery swapping won’t be viable due to the large number of battery sizes and shapes.
So I don’t see a bright future for pure BEVs.
EREVs, on the other hand, will go mass market. By 2020, half of all new cars sold will be EREVs.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:39 am)amen, bradah!
+8
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:03 am)Nissan will find resistance at $30k on the Leaf. My guess is $35,999 before tax credit. Expectation for the Volt is a debut at $39k before credit.
The Volt is the better buy of the two. What may determine early sales is simple availability. Nissan announced a production rate for the Leaf of several times the Volt rate. Will make for an interesting contest.
=D-Volt
+17
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:05 am)For the same money, at the current stage (range, durability unknowns) of battery technology? Volt, hands down for this prospective buyer.
+42
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:33 am)I smell a Red Herring. Leak a high “speculative price” and the real price sounds better.
JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
+16
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:34 am)If the Leaf is the same price or even a couple of thousand less, the Volt concept would still win hands down. The problem is, limited production – if you had to wait 2-3 years to get your Volt, well… this may change things for a lot of people. Perhaps you could order a Volt first, then cross the street to get the Leaf for whilst you are waiting?
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:38 am)There’s no question, in my thinking, that for the same price as an EREV such as Volt, a BEV just would not make sense. I had assumed they would be much cheaper than the Volt, given the Leaf’s limitations. If this price holds true, it will be interesting to see how many people want to dig that deep into their pocketbook, just to make a green statement. Me, I would go for the green statement the Volt makes, with the crutch of a small gas tank for days when I had second thoughts. Now if the Leaf is able to give me that satisfying push from the lumbar support when the accelerator is pushed, and Volt isn’t, all of this could change.
+17
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:51 am)I agree with you both! And for me there’s another MAJOR problem —the LEAF’s front grill is simply butt-ugly!!! On a scale of 10, I rate the Ampera styling at a full 10, the Volt at 9.5 & the Leaf at 2.5! I’d be proud to own an Ampera or a Volt. But I’d be embarrassed to park a Leaf in my driveway!
ATTN Carlos Ghosn: I HOPE for Nissan’s sake (and for the future of BEVs) that the Leaf’s styling is ALSO a Red Herring —one that resembles another kind of fish —and that you’ve had an emergency red team redesigning the car’s “catfish” front grill!!!
+3
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:58 am)I’m with you. Still, it is interesting.
+3
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:59 am)Since there is no official price yet, no comment.
+6
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:08 am)I concur. But then, isn’t this what we all are hoping will be the case with the Volt?
FWIW, the editors at Autoblog Green believe that if the Leaf comes in at this price, the Volt will prove to be a lot more attractive to the buying public.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:08 am)I dont believe it.. perhaps they are trying to fool GM into setting a high price for the Volt. This is the original newspaper article:
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/business/news/20100317p2a00m0na014000c.html
What was the original Ghosn promise?.. that the cost of the leased batteries would be lower than the monthly gas bill?
+7
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:17 am)Not for me! Why Nissan is so confident with this car is beyond me.
+22
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:25 am)Ok. I went and read the comments on the original article. We got a lot of work to do.
- Volt’s batteries cost $15,000 (multiple references)
- Electric car batteries can fry you in an accident
- Electric car batteries spew acid all over the place in an accident
- a diesel car is better environmentally
- US electricity is generated from coal and oil (? oil), so, electric cars are worse polluters
- Lithium is rare, expensive and not recycleable.
Loads of misconceptions.
+4
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:28 am)Of course, this is the price in Japan.
The US price will be a totally different story.
If they have plans to make 150,000 units per year in 2012, it will have to be.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:30 am)Meanwhile, over in France:
http://europe.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100314/ANE/100319947
“Renault is considering a starting price on the Fluence of 25,000 euros to 28,000 euros, with the subsidy included.”
The subsidy is 5000 euros so the starting cost is $41k to $45k.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:31 am)Let’s say the Volt and Leaf cost the same to manufacture. That would imply that the extra 8 kWh of batteries in the Leaf cost about the same as the engine/generator and related systems in the Volt. If the batteries cost $500/kW, this would be about $4000. Seems a little low to me, but maybe not.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:41 am)“..he discovered he could pull up a database of all 1,100 Auto Center customers whose cars were equipped with the device. He started going down the list in alphabetical order, vandalizing the records, disabling the cars and setting off the horns.”
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/03/hacker-bricks-cars/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Index+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29
Lol. This guy’s not a ‘hacker’, but, he did disable cars remotely. Hopefully, OnStar is a little more secure.
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:43 am)I have noticed in some of the forums that PV systems are only being justified as “statements” or “hobbys”. I think EVs might be in the same class at the moment. I was hoping otherwise.
+13
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:45 am)Too much money. There is no way I am going to spend that for the privilege of being stranded.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:03 am)Creative way to get a free market survey. Just publish a speculative story that gets picked up by a successful blog like this site and we all chime in with our opinions that a research company would normally have to pay big bucks to gather.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:05 am)Hellooo…hellooooo Statik, are you out there?
Can you bring back the Japan EV subsidy details for us to chew on. Don’t forget folks that pricing can be greatly affected by such things. In this case, it has the affect of legal dumping.
-1
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:09 am)“The Volt’s final price remains unknown, and will not be revealed until at least May or perhaps later in the summer. Estimates vary from low to high 30s before a $7500 tax credit.”
Should that be *after* a $7500 tax credit?
There’s been so much talk about the $40,000 Volt price, I don’t think it’s realistic to expect any options (leather, wheel upgrade, nav) at that price point. Volt: $39K base, $53K fully loaded.
As for the Leaf, it strikes me as being in the quirky fringe car class. The Volt comes across as a real mainstream car.
+3
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:13 am)Yes pricing is the main story from now until these things actually are on the road with retail customers (or until some battery breakthroughs are announced).
Original prices for both Volt and Leaf will be dropped a few times in the first year (remember the IPhone, huge demand at beginning, after 3 months they dropped the price like 30%). So Even if both the Volt and Leaf come out at 38K late in 2010, as production quantities are ramped up the price will fall fast. This is just supply/demand.
My plan is still unchanged, second half of 2012 I expect to get a volt around 32K – 7.5K.
I would buy earlier if the deal was there, but I don’t want to be one of millions of people that want an EREV/BEV while the supply it so low. I’m not rich enough to pay that premium.
And to the continued comments about the BEV, the main problem I have with the Volt is that I can only get 40 miles AER a day. If I went with a Leaf (which might happen), I can average many more miles of AER and just charge it once a day at night. With my volt, I’ll always be trying to plan how to charge it during the day, because many days i’ll drive 60-80 miles and I don’t want to use any gas. I really wish it were a Volt with 60 miles AER, then i’d have the assurance of EREV with the ability to do 95% of my driving with one charge a day.
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:21 am)If after government subsidy, the Leaf comes in at “under 3 million yen”, according to the news story, a low $30,000 price seems workable, but still steep for such a limited vehicle.
Granted, Mitsubishi is working on a price reduction strategy for iMiev, so it’s reasonable to assume Nissan will adjust it’s pricing accordingly. Still, with 80-100 mile range – I can’t see wide acceptance of the car. Vanity aside ( it is ugly, yet aero ) – I’d consider a Leaf for that price if it had a 300 mile range.
This article makes me ponder what GM will do with Volt pricing ( I’m sure of dealer gouging for the first year ) if they ramp up production. It also shows what competition can do to marketing strategy and how battery cost, especially to Mitsubishi – appears to be lessening rather quickly.
BUILD THEM AND THEY WILL COME
RECHARGE, James
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:29 am)“$38,600 to $44,30” is an EV eunthasist ONLY price range…and catfish eunthasists.:)
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:40 am)exactly, first 50,000 the EV enthusiasts will pay $40k, then they’ll drop the prices to $35k for the next 50,000, then they’ll drop the price to $30K until the tax credit runs out, then they’ll sell them for about 28k, and the prices will not come down a bunch from there.
EVs EREVs will always cost a little more than the ICE cars they will replace, because people are getting more for what they are paying. They will get fuel savings for the life of the vehicle.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:52 am)Actually, the car will be sold with the battery or leased with the battery. Nissan has announced that it won’t sell the car and lease the battery. “The Nissan LEAF will be available to consumers via lease or sale, in a single transaction that includes the battery.” The news release is at http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/news.jsp#/news
+5
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:54 am)I suspect the price of the Volt will be a lot lower than we think. Look at it this way, if GM can build the Chevy Cruze for $17,000, I believe they can build the Volt for less than $30,000. The ICE in the Volt should cost less then the Cruze…..no turbo with the Volt. The expensive 6 speed transmission in the Cruze will not be needed in the Volt. The electronics, battery, and generator are the major components that will bring the price up to about $30,00.
+4
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:55 am)If their prices before GOV$7,500 credit was as follows:
Leaf $25K
Volt $35K
I would buy a Volt.
If they were both $40K, I would buy neither.
$40K is price prohibited for me.
NPNS!
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:57 am)This car is so ugly they will have to give them away. Even the Ed begley Jr would not be caught dead driving this electric powered phone booth.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (8:16 am)I agree, except my guess is that the electronics and generator also help bring the Volt cost down. At least in the long run.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (8:29 am)Thank you Lyle for keeping us apprised.
However, I don’t think the price mentioned in the article really matters…Japanese companies almost always set the price of their goods higher in the domestic markets & sell them cheap else where.
I’m guessing the price will be quite close to $30K before the tax break, and most probably under the $35,000 mark.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (8:30 am)In my case, Nissan would have to PAY ME to even allow it to be parked on the street in front of my home (because I’d have to look at it to avoid smashing it when driving by)!
-1
Mar 18th, 2010 (8:31 am)Over 35K would be a hard sell on the Volt over $0.00 would be a hard sell on the leaf for me. I think to sell big numbers the leaf will need to be under 25K. Maybe under 20K and a $200 mo batt lease would work. But to be honest you would be better of with a Cruze.
+6
Mar 18th, 2010 (8:34 am)I agree the Volt could eventually be sold cheap, but they aren’t going to sell it for less money than people will pay for it.
The demand early on from enthusiasts, the federal tax credit, alone will keep the prices high.
And in a few years when the federal credit is used up, but production is ramped up and component costs are lower, the price will still be held higher than comparable ICEs.
EREV/BEVs will never sell for same or less than comparable ICEs, because you get built in fuel savings. This is why EREV/BEVs will dominate the market much sooner than people seem to accept. The car companies will make a lot of money, and people will buy them at a small premium to ICE cars, even though the companies won’t need the premiums.
Within 3 years, anyone who can plug their car in at night and get lower night charging rates will figure out that it is worth a premium to buy a EREV/BEV. By the time they sell the first 100 million EREV/BEVs in this country, there will be uniform lower nightly electric rates and charging infrastrucure at apartments so that the next 100 million electric cars will be sold.
People will not only realize they save money with EREV/BEVs, but they will realize it is much more convenient to just plug in at night, and rarely have to go to gas stations.
Mar 18th, 2010 (8:50 am)LoL – hahaha… Hey, Ed would drive one, I’m sure, if he could get a free endorsement deal. After all, he drove a Phoenix electric truck for awhile, as a spokesman and they’re butt ugly!
IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME
RECHARGE! James
+12
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:02 am)$38,600 = Base Model LEAF
$38,300 = Camaro SS + RS Pkg + LS3 + Manual Trans
Decisions. Decisions.
-12
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:06 am)(click to show comment)
-17
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:07 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:17 am)I won’t even consider buying a Leaf until there is a Nissan dealership within the range of the leaf to my house. The Chevy dealership is so close to my house and workplace that I ride my bike back from there when I take my truck in to be worked on.
+4
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:24 am)When I drove the Volt here in Austin last Saturday, it completely blew away all the definitions I’d had about luxury cars. Although I did not experience charge sustain mode, I am sure that I would never want to be without charge sustain mode.
During that drive, the way that I focused on the Volt was entirely different than the way others in the Austin EV club focused on the Volt. This is because I wanted to absorb all the attributes of it in such a way that I can continually report these sensations in context with commentary from those of us visiting here.
I listened very closely to the basic comfort questions asked me by the Volt Team (and yes, I’d never been nearly as comfortable in any luxury car in my entire life. period.), which cued me into the sets of ways I wanted to be able to relate to everyone here.
Make no mistake about this. Volt is
*the*
very finest luxury car I’ve ever driven.
It is my job to know every sound and every system of every vehicle I drive (all makes and all models and all engines/systems), because I must teach them all to L-1 advanced techs to repair, often while the customer is waiting in the waiting room. Zero tolerance for baloney.
While neither I nor anyone I know have driven a Leaf, what I can surely tell everyone right now, is that the Volt has set the bar so *very* extremely high as far as luxury meets technology is concerned, the price differences ought to be quite different in how I would expect the Leaf to be priced. Very much at a far lower cost consistent with what is purported to be in it, simply since there is far less technology in it. $26,000msrp would be my highest comparative estimate for a base model Leaf.
The Leaf would be a fine auto for the Japanese citizen, as Carlos could help set up Japan on a V2G system for Japan, (and the Japanese Administrations could be viewed as very wise to be favorable to that, I think), which could have excellent merits for their economies, their air quality, their reductions in fossil fuel importing, and on and on. Carlos is doing a great thing for Japan. Undoubtedly, the Leaf may find the right homes here and elsewhere on the planet as well.
Best wishes for it in any case.
(/running late, off to work, have a great day everyone!!)
+9
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:28 am)Um.. I think there is a misread here. I was merely reporting the misconceptions out there. I’m saying that *we* (GM and the fans-of-Volt) need to work on getting these debunked.
Now if we want to debunk them, we need urls to the references mentioned. We also need to respond in other forums. Everyone here is pretty much on board with electric drive.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:31 am)Of course, there’s no way to know for sure; but I strongly suspect (read “hope”) that 120,000 units in the US from Nissan will prove an over-estimate, and 60,000 units in all from GM an under-estimate.
In any case, given Volts in sufficient numbers (and reasonable buyer education), I would expect Volt to outsell Leaf two to one (regardless of the MSRPs).
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:33 am)Lets say the cost on the range extender and generator is 4000$. At 500$/ kwhr for the batteries this says if you eliminate the range extender you can purchase 8 kwhr of batteries which magically is the difference between the Volt and Leaf packs.
Now, make the car smaller, eliminate the liquid cooling in the pack, punch ‘em out by the thousands and how much can you cost reduce below the Volt. Maybe 5000$ at the most.
Now lease the pack at around 150$/ month. This shouldn’t be a problem for Nissan if the pack is 500$/kwh times 24=12000$. the payoff would be 6.66 years.
So now we can offer the Leaf (Nissan’s thinking)at 5000$+ 12000$=17000$ less than the Volt.
Leaf is offered to the American public 39000$-17000$=22000$.
So mid 20′s for the Leaf. People will buy it. The pack being leased is a good thing as it removes the worry in consumer’s minds about the pack plus they can upgrade every 6 years for free.
Don’t want to lease the pack?? Leaf price =39000-5000= 34000$. just about the articles price.
Mid 20′s, leased pack. People will buy it (IMO)
Mid 30′s with a purchased pack—it’s a tough sell.
+4
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:36 am)Er, I think he purposely posted that as “here is a list of misconceptions”, but he should have made it clearer perhaps. Funny how easy it is to post something which readers interpret in exactly the opposite way of which it was intended. I also took it the wrong way on the first reading.
I actually wish Nissan luck, I know they made some so-so cars in the past, but I had a cheapie little Versa as a rental a year ago and was actually quite impressed with it.
Funny how much weighting we give to the front grille “face” of a car. Just saw an online Acura ad and thought “no way would I buy that thing”, simply based on the ugly front.
Party on.
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:36 am)Strange … I have posted twice today… and they are not showin up..
???
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:38 am)MSRP – $38,600 to $44,300.
Who killed the Electric Car?
+5
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:40 am)Mid – life crisis? Buy the Camaro. Confident in one’s masculinity? Buy the LEAF.
Since the Camaro is a modern version of an antiquated technology, burning fossil fuel and belching carbon monoxide out it’s tailpipe for all to breathe…. But it has retro-future-classic lines and may be a lasting relic of days gone by – it can be a great Sunday driver to the car club, show or drive-in for a burger…and the LEAF, also limited, as it’s battery limits it to 5 days per week as a grocery getter or commuter appliance….
I’d say if you’re well-off enough for a piece of garage candy like the SS Camaro…go for it… If you’re a practical sort who doesn’t mind multiple cars for mixed use, aren’t vain and want to make a positive difference toward the air our children breathe – and piss off a narcissistic South American dictator ( Hugo Chavez ), a Communist in sheep’s clothing ( Vladmir Putin ), some gold-plated Rolls Royce drivin’, terrorist funding Arab royalty, and a whole slew of arms manufacturers, buy a LEAF.
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME
RECHARGE! James
+5
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:43 am)Oh… got it…
The 2010 Fusion Hybrid…. fully loaded….. $ 37,500 + taxes…
A great car..
I paid $33,700 for mine…skipped the leather and the nav system..
Currently getting 48.7 MPG Canadian.. 40.5 MPG US..
Life time average for 20,000 KMS… 44.1 MPG Canadian 36.7 MPG US.
And it is going to get a lot better now that the warmer weather is coming..
No major troubles… (sticky relay and a flat tire so far)
Seats 5…. great milage…
I will be buying a Volt when they get to Central Alberta, Canada. ( approximately 2.5 – 3 years) but will be keeping the Fusion Hybrid for the larger size…
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:46 am)I see your “red” comment is going to result is a “green” day for you! (You do know that YESTERDAY was St. Patrick’s day, eh?). Anyway I think you’ve nailed it. It just smells like a trial balloon.
But there are a couple of things to consider:
1. Doesn’t Japan have far larger incentives for BEVs? The iMiev was price in Japan was higher than this if I remember — like $49,000 — but it’s projected to much lower when it goes on sale in the UK.
2. The first wave of Leaf’s includes a 220 home charger which is necessary for a BEV. That’s probably worth a thousand or two.
However, the first wave of cars do come with
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:52 am)Car prices in the EU are considerably higher than in the US. VAT alone would drive it up. So $41K to $45k in the EU might translate into something $8K-$10K less in the US.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:53 am)Pure BEVs are still impractical, I would not buy one until they are capable of supporting 300+miles between charges and have a 5-10 minute ‘fast recharge’ capability.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:56 am)In the first place, Nissan has changed it’s initial plans and will not offer to sell the Leaf while leasing the battery (it will be possible to lease both as a unit).
But let’s say for the sake of argument that you’re right: Leaf outsells Volt, and 3 years later they prove to be a poor buyer experience due to cheaper implementation of the technology (and cheapness over all). You generally get what you pay for. The big question becomes, “does customer dissatisfaction with the Leaf give all EVs a black eye, or just BEVs?” At this point, the Volt will have had several years to make an excellent impression, the Hydrogen Goon Squad at GM will have likely been forced to slip their schedule back (again) for the usual reasons, and GM’s internal political balance could tilt back to Voltec again. With cred for the Volt and a black eye for BEVs, the Powers that Be at GM would hopefully re-re-evaluate Voltec for production in greater numbers across more platforms. BEVs do not meaningfully return to prominence until ranges top 200 real miles per charge.
+3
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:01 am)I don’t believe this for a second either. Especially if they’re going to lease the battery on top of that. That would make the LEAF significantly more expensive than the Volt. For a less desirable (to most people) car.
And, aside from anything else, there’s no way anyone would plan those kind of production numbers for a $40,000 car.
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:02 am)The title is as if the price is for US and it has been announced by Nissan. Is this what goes for “journalism” now-a-days – not just here but many other blogs as well ?
This is a speculation on the price in JAPAN – which has a very high rebate on EVs – something like 50%. That is the reason Mitsu i-MiEV is priced at the equivalent of $48K in Japan.
My guess is that companies will price the car to hit a point after the tax breaks. Let us say Nissan wants Leaf at $25K – then it will price the car at $32.5K in the US and $50K in Japan.
+3
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:06 am)That makes sense. Don’t they have a $15,000 credit for electric cars in Japan? So the final cost to the consumer would be around $25,000. And Japanese car prices tend to be much higher than the US ones to begin with.
And people wonder why the US auto industry complains about the closed Japanese market…
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:12 am)#16
Agree. +1
Didn’t we already see that with the Mitsu? They started out with a MUCH higer price in Japan, evidently because the JA tax credits, wisely IMHO, are much higher than the US. Later on they announced/leaked a much lower US price.
I agree that they are DOA here if the above prices are real.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:15 am)Why is this car so expensive? They will never meet their sales goals at that price. This vehicle has to be under 30k to have any chance to have a significant impact in the US market.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:16 am)I agree that the car is incredibly ugly. To the point where I’d be embarrassed to be seen in one. (And I like the Prius.) But it has the virtue of being distinctive. Which might appeal to the “greener than thou” crowd. This way everyone knows you have an electric car. What’s the point in giving up the range if you can’t tell everyone who passes by what a wonderful person you are?
Ugly might be beside the point.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:19 am)Good point — you need a dealer within 50 miles if you need something tweaked — have dealer stick on plates or … I’m lucky, 4 dealers within range, but closest is 21 miles. Not a lot of wiggle room.
not for me, golf-cart class usefulness for 40k. That Camaro SS sounds pretty good, thx CorvetteGuy, lol.
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:21 am)#37
“From your lips to God’s ear” +1
+5
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:23 am)The difference is that in Japan, the tax credits will go only to cars that were a) built in Japan, b)using 100% Japanese parts, and c) built by Japanese companies. In the US, tax credits for the Volt also have to go to the IMiev, and the LEAF–even if they import them. Think about how much money the US federal and state governments have sent Japan for the Prius.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:29 am)Ah, ah. This turtle looking car for about $40K? You must be kidding me. What is this car offering me more than a real car like the Tesla S for $49K?
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:30 am)Golf TDI for under $23k. 42 mpg highway and has much higher performance characteristics than a Leaf. And no worry about running out of charge. The difference in price will afford a lot of diesel…
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:31 am)Frankly, I would rather purchase a Volt… but I live in Ohio, and we do not get new tech that’s been in limited release until several year later. If I am willing to wait, and can get my car to last until about 2014 or so, I might be able to get a Volt in Ohio.
Or I could get a Leaf this fall/winter.
It’s all going to boil down to whether or not I could afford a new car (on a teacher’s salary) by this fall.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:31 am)Hmmm….I think I’ll stir the pot with a little price speculation today. Normally I don’t venture in to these discussions on price, because it will be what it will be. But I was a little suprised to see the Leaf being in the price ranges stated in the article. If they are to be believed could we extrapolate the following:
LEAF: Base car if it were ICE only would probably be $20,000. Price projected is approx. $40000 for 100 mile AER and battery only. That means the battery and electric motor can be figured at $20,000.
Volt: Base car if it were ICE only would probably be $25,000. Figure the Volt battery is 40% of the Leaf battery @ $20,000. That works out to $8000 for the Volt battery pack. Add $8000 to the $25000 for the remainder of the car and you are left with $33,000 Total (before tax credit). Consider that this aligns with Ed Whitacre’s statement to Lyle awhile ago that “the Volt will come in the low thirties, and we will make a margin on that”.
Anybody think I’m nuts?
+4
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:32 am)The thing doesn’t HAVE a grille! Weren’t you ranting some months back about how the Volt’s fake grille is a travesty, form should not take precedence over function, etc. etc.? The Volt would look about as bad without a front grille.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:32 am)#64
You’re starting to sound like Chalmers Johnson, LOL. +1
And don’t even get me started on “Cash For Clunkers”. As I always tell my guys here, “Make sure you’ve got your foot completely centered in the crosshairs before you pull the trigger.”
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:33 am)We used to have a saying on the playground – “never say never.”
+5
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:35 am)#65
Sheet metal instead of vapor, IMHO. And I’m not a Nissan fan.
+4
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:48 am)A greater probability of actual product existence.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:50 am)You’re in line ahead of me.
/lives in the Deep South …
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:53 am)?? $38,000 ??
No way would I buy the leaf at that price. Would rather buy a gas guzzler and have a lot of money left over for 10 years worth of gas, plus a few vacations/etc.
Highest price I would pay is $22,500 after tax credit.
+4
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:53 am)I am out here…but barely. Been in bed for days. H1N1 is not my friend. Was just getting my emails and checked the site.
$31,500ish is my guess on the conversion. (Although it is a futile exercise really, if we had a Euro number it would be a lot easier)
I can’t explain that number atm; my head might explode before I typed it all out. Maybe later. I think I am starting to come around now thankfully. /cheers
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:55 am)I’d rather have an American car like the Volt! Plus the Leaf doesn’t have a gasoline engine as a backup like the Volt does, right?
+3
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:00 am)$38k+? 150k units in the USA by 2012?
I have but one reaction. HEY NISSAN…
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:03 am)#73
A much more polite way of putting it, LOL. +1
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:03 am)I thought Chalmers Johnson said that globalization is really “American imperialism?” And we’re actually victimizing Japan by buying their cars? And other goods. (Which, is bizarre IMHO.)
By the way, you know what really bugged me about cash for clunkers? Aside from the lack of a buy American provision? (Which we could never have gotten away with, IMHO.) If you bought a hybrid or a fuel efficient car, you’re out of luck. But if you bought a gas guzzler, the US government will help you buy a bright shiny new car. It’s bad enough that we had to bail out the sub-prime buyers. But the SUV buyers?
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:03 am)I got a reminder over the weekend why EREV, not BEV, will be the way to go for most people for the foreseeable future.
Daughter’s flight back to Pittsburgh got canceled – probably the storm. Quick check shows a bus leaving from NYC, but no bus connection in time from here.
“No problem, sweetie. Jump in the Fit. I’ll drive you to New York.”
“What happens if we don’t make that bus, or if it’s full?”
“Still no problem. If necessary, I’ll just drive you to Pittsburgh.”
And that’s what makes EREV better for most Americans than BEV.
-1
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:09 am)$40K for an ugly cracker box death trap…I think not.
+5
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:10 am)Definitely the Volt. For my money I’ll take the car that looks nicer and won’t leave me stranded because AAA can’t send a tow truck with a can of electricity.lol
+3
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:24 am)Sorry to hear about your illness. I had just a touch of respiratory crud and it was unpleasant. H1N1 is a whole different ballgame — a much worse ballgame. Take care of yourself and get better soon guy.
+3
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:25 am)And you’re writing a comment to say no comment. Interesting.
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:27 am)Very funny cause it is so true. +3. Ba ha ha ha ha!
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:33 am)Death and taxes – inevitable in this life. I’m against new taxes 9 time out of ten – but at times we know we have to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.
Even though no politician seeking re-election will ever propose a gas tax. It’s precisely what we need. It would quicken adoption of electrics and ease the national debt. Reducing our need for oil will enable us to spend less on weapons and our military, promoting more world peace.
As a fiscal conservative it makes me bite my lip, but with this current administration – don’t think a carbon emissions tax on each vehicle is beyond probability. I’d gladly pay it as it would harken in the electric age of the automobile.
BUILT THEM AND THEY WILL COME
RECHARGE! James
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:36 am)Hi! Nice to meet you! I always like seeing another woman on the site.
Personally, I’m not interested in a BEV. But I wish Tesla all the success in the world. And if you have the money to buy one, and they actually build one, I think you should do it. We’ll all benefit from the cleaner air. And reduced gasoline consumption. Better yet, buy a roadster if you can afford one. They have the advantage of actually being in production.
By the way, what do you think the odds are that with only three women here (at least that I’ve seen), two of us have the same name?
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:38 am)#80
He said, in “The Sorrows of Empire”, that we have “sold out our manufacturing base” as a quid pro quo for overseas military basing rights. IOW, If we do not allow Japan unlimited access to our markets, as the same time that they restrict our access to theirs, they kick us out of our massive military bases in Okinawa and mainland Japan.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:39 am)Statik #76: Hope you feel better friend.
I wanted to add to my post at #68:
If anyone thinks the numbers listed for the Leaf are crazy and out of line, consider an apples to apples comparison. Tesla plans to offer the Model S @ $49,900 (before tax break) with 160 mile range. That makes the approx. $40,000 Leaf plausible figuring 60 miles of range knocked off. It also lends itself to supporting Nissan’s preference of leasing the battery instead of pricing it in. Otherwise, they’ll be picking many, many people off the floor from sticker shock. Further, Tesla has placed a target range in the 30′s for it’s “Blue Star” model that is supposed to fall under the Model S (eventually). Of course, Tesla has to just plain survive, but that’s another matter entirily.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:41 am)#81
Fit? Fahrvergnugen?
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:42 am)#82
You sound exactly like my wife, LOL.
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:02 pm)I’m sorry to hear that. I hope you feel better soon.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:05 pm)+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:14 pm)I’d be most leery planning VOLT vs LEAF marketing around a so-called ‘news report’. My take, and I can’t recall why, is LEAF was to be under $25k before tax credits. It could be this is a Trojan Horse meant to encourage VOLT to keep VOLT’s MSRP in the $38k range.
Obviously VOLT is far and away the better EV. If Whitacre’s commentary on VOLT holds MSRP low 30′s it’ll flat-out beat LEAF; and if LEAF indeed is in the upper 30′s-so much the better. GM is surely mindful VOLT is destined to be the benchmark for large production everyday EV. True its range is a puny ER 300 miles. But simply doubling the tank size-ensures its relevance a good part of the 2010′s.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:26 pm)I haven’t read all the posts so I don’t know if anyone mentioned it, and probably no one is still reading anyways
, but you can’t do a straight yen to $ conversion like that.
For example, a CRV starts at 247,000 yen in Japan and 21,545 in the US. Given that same conversion rate, 3.5 to 4.0 million yen would be $30,500 – $34,900 USD. That makes the leaf $23,000 to $27,500 USD after rebate (which I understand is the official GM-sanctioned means of talking about such things).
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:27 pm)Really? Because that’s the book I read, and I’m pretty sure I didn’t read that. He said, and I quote”It is critically important to understand that the doctrine of globalization is a kind of intellectual sedative that lulls and distracts its third world victims while rich countries cripple them, ensuring that they will never able to challenge the imperial powers.” That’s flat out not true. If Japan didn’t have access to our markets, they never would have developed as fast as they did. And, as far as I can tell, the biggest loser of “globalization” is the US. Look at us in the 50s, and look at us now.
By the way, the Japanese model of development leads to massive imbalances and structural reliance on exports. Once they were forced allow their currency to float, and were no longer able to increase their trade surplus due to currency manipulation, their economy imploded. It still hasn’t recovered two decades later. And that’s in spite of their maintaining a rather large trade surplus. But they needed it to keep growing. And that required a partners who were willing to accept an ever increasing trade deficit. At some point, the receiving country (or countries) run out of cash.
As far as countries that have increased their average standards of living without that kind of manipulation? India. Brazil. South Africa, even. Most of Europe after WWII. Including Germany. More recently Poland and Estonia. Etc. It is possible. It just takes longer. But it’s a lot more sustainable.
As far as kicking us out of our military bases? Please. I wish they would. I don’t think they care about Okinawans enough to make that happen. On the other hand, that would leave them extremely vulnerable in an area of the world that still holds a massive grudge because of WWII. Especially the major rising power, China.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:34 pm)I’d rather not debate semantics, so let me just say the Leaf’s catfish “SNOUT” is unnecessarily butt-ugly!!! And the “European Volt”, an Opel/Vaxall Ampera, has a front-end design that’s both handsome and distinctive, IMO…
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:34 pm)U have my sympathy bro!
I had the Hog last November. You’ll know it’s ending when you’re sh|ttin fire on the can for 2 days.
What helps is Nyquil with a Tequila chaser and lots of H2O & Citrus!!!!
/serious, it helps. trailer parkish as it sounds……..it helped.
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:40 pm)Well, at least it’s still cheaper than the $48,000 CDN I was quoted for the VOLT at the Vancouver Winter Olympics last month, when it was on display there. But no tax credit for us guys above the 49th.
With taxes, $53,760 – Ouch!
Test driven, definitely a nice drive!
But Still – GO EV !!!!
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:42 pm)The “Catfish” cars price is still speculative for the US market. I’ll hold my comments till they announce the US price. Besides, it’s not like any of us are going to Fly to Japan and buy one.
OOOOhhhh….
Which leads to an idea, let’s “Throw Lyle on the Plane” for a test drive of the Leaf. Just a thought, I’d send my $20 to fund it. Or send him to drive the BYD and give us a comparison of performance and feel as compared to the Volt.
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:44 pm)There are a lot of comments about how ugly the Leaf is and I surely share that opinion. The funny thing is is that Nissan, I believe, is pretty aware of how awful the view from the front is and the impression that it gives.
As proof I would direct you to http://www.andrewsullivan.com where there is currently a Leaf web ad in the top right corner. I personally have never seen a car advertised by a picture of the car taken from directly behind the car. Front shots, side shots, angled shots, top shots, sure. But, as far as I can recall, never one from the ass of the car.
With that all said, I’m personally routing for the Leaf because we need some winners in the electric vehicle category but, geez, it’s pretty awful looking.
-3
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:45 pm)Zachary Taylor Says “A greater possbility of actual product existence”
That is the only thing you can say. If a car like the Model S is out there both the Volt and Nissan Leaf become very unattractive and you know that.
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:48 pm)Hey, you 2 should go buy some Lotto numbers today.
If you win, just remember me and maybe you can pay off my trailer park trailer home……lol
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:51 pm)Ed Begley Jr. is the kind of Hollyweird nut, that believes ten kinds of contradictory impossibilities before Lunch. I’m sure he agrees with DOE’s Mr. Chu that everyone should paint the roof of his house white to reflect solar energy (technically, raise the Albedo), to prevent Global Warming.
And at he same time, he believes that its a good idea to paint his roof the blackest black possible, and I believe he actually did so. When he put a very inefficient solar cell array on his house, that creates about 90% thermal Pollution. Solar cell design engineers worked hard to make it as absorbent of incoming energy (i.e Black!) as possible, (technically, reduce the Albedo), to also prevent Global Warming.
Too bad Mr. Begley was no cast in Alice in Wonderland. He lives there, everyday.
Mr. Begley, simply has much more money than brains.
Mr. Ghosn is living in Wonderland as well, too, if he thinks he can sell a micro-compact BEV for $40K. This only confirms that trading a small and cheap engine generator is less expensive and better, than spending money on batteries with double or triple the KWh, rating to provide double, 80, or triple, 120 mile range, to drive a tiny microcar BEV.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (12:53 pm)Yeah, I agree it’s not the most attaractive nor a chick magnet. But for me, I just care to get from point A to B and who gives a Rat’s Azz what anyone thinks of my “Hooptie”. I drive a oxidized paint shedding 96 Saturn SL2 for pete’s sake.
Yeah, i’m an ol foggie trailer park maggot but damnit, I WANT OFF OF OPEC JUICE!!!!!
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:01 pm)The Model “S” is visually stunning, I agree. But for the PAt Q. Public in this jacked up financial times now and into next year, it’s not affordable nor available. By the time the sleek styling and 300mile range of the Model S is RTM (Released To Manufacturing), the Leaf, Volt and Maybe the iMiev and quite possibly the Th!nk will have been or will be available and very much less than $45,000.00 before credits. It’s a shame Tesla didn’t get this out sooner. For many broke assed folks like me that finance their cars (well half of it) price is the issue. Range I can work with.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:02 pm)Yes, it’s sad. Uncompetitive gasoline mileage and one too many water pump/fuel pump/oxygen sensor/automatic transmission/clutch cable incidents. I love the way VWs drive, I love the way they look — but they’ve become a sort of poor man’s Jaguar. I hope someday they find their way back.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:08 pm)#94
Man I hope so! But I gonna believe we pulled out of there when I actually see it. God send that it shall be true, however.
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:13 pm)#97
Well I guess I’ll have to go dig out the quote for you. Because I agree with about 99.9% of what you are saying. Maybe I was overlaying my own spin on what poor Prof. Johnson was trying to say, but that passage made the biggest impression on me of anything in the “trilogy”.
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:17 pm)#103
As my Mom says, “A big if”, IMHO.
Plus, I would a lot rather trust the warranty on my 50K car to GM or Nissan than Tesla, LOL.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:18 pm)You still need a pretty gigantic “IF” to make that claim.
Let’s see some get wheels on the road and then we’ll continue the debate (even if it does, it will cost itself into a whole ‘nother category).
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:20 pm)#106
I agree. +1 Actually, I think it’s kinda cute. But I’m not buying a Nissan. Come on BEV Spark.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:23 pm)I still think that GM’s “stripper” BEV should be named the “Sparrow,” in your honor
!
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:25 pm)Well, a bunch of speculation about a price that was thrown out there by a ‘journalist’ with no actual facts from the manufacturer (or even an inside source) is kind of a waste of time. No?
Heck, we can do that with little or no prompting
Best to wait for the manufacturers to tell us what their MSRP is.
(“It depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.” – Bill Clinton.)
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:25 pm)#108
I’ve heard that other places too. How sad. +1
The new Automobile magazine has a driving impression of the new Golf R. Price (in Europe only) $52K! Jaguar maybe, poor man’s, not so much, LOL.
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:27 pm)#112
Well said, LOL! +1
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:29 pm)#114
I’ll drink to that! +1 Of course, at this point in my life, I’ll drink to damn near anything.
Anyway, you’ve sure got the hot hand today, LOL.
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:33 pm)#115
The late, great, Jim Healy used to do it all the time. When something was so obvious as to require no editorial comment, he would just crank up his Walter Winchell tickertape/telegraph sound track and say, in his best Walter Winchell imitation voice:
“Comment……………………………………………………………………………. No Comment!
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:34 pm)Me tooo!!!
/what r we drinkin to? I’ll still drink.
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:34 pm)What are the Chinese doing for us?
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:37 pm)lol….
It should come with a 10 foot silver pole for the garage too!!!
http://www.break.com/pictures/at-home-stripper-pole642875.html
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:39 pm)#121
Good question. I dunno. Making stuff REAL cheap and keeping a big part of our life threatening debt afloat, I guess. Maybe we’re just so addicted to the stuff now that we don’t even ask for a quid pro quo any more.
Hell, they’re even doing it to the Japanese, or so it would appear to me.
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:43 pm)Assuming the Leaf and Volt retail for about the same price–and that’s still a big assumption–then the choice between the two is an absolute no-brainer. Consumers will tend to want to go for an all-purpose car like the Volt.
The only reason that consumers might consider a BEV like the Leaf is as a household’s “secondary” car, used for just short local commutes and local shopping, etc. But if that’s the case, then drivers will not be willing to pay very much for such a secondary car. Why pay the same price for the Leaf as you would for a car that has no range anxiety issues (& it doesn’t even look as stylish as the Volt either)?
The only other reason to consider the Leaf would be if there are initial shortages of the Volts…another hypothetical unknown.
Sincerely. George, Sudbury, Canada…go Volt!
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:44 pm)I am with you on that 100%. I also agree that the Opel Ampera gets a 10 on style but I think the Volt only rates a 9 due to poor design on the nose (to your 9.5).
I wish we could order the Opel nose on the Volt… or perhaps just get the parts delivered and make the modifications ourselves
.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:45 pm)Hey check this out, is this a valid “Double Dip” for CA residents?!?!?!?!
http://energycenter.org/index.php/incentive-programs/clean-vehicle-rebate-project/cvrp-eligible-vehicles
The Leaf is listed so in theory, we can get $7,500.00 (fed) + $5,000.00 (CARB) = $12,500.00 Total?
Of course, I still lay claim to you pay FULL price when you drive off the lot, so refi the following year!!! Or whatever…..
OK, I may be wrong but throw out your thoughts anyway.
/would be a sweet deal. too bad carcus1 doesn’t live in CA.
-1
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:50 pm)Mamby staying out of tiawan while we sell LOTS of U.S. Weapon systems to them. An island nation that close to mainland china would otherwise be easy pickins for those commies.
Mar 18th, 2010 (1:57 pm)I’d prefer a Volt of the two, but if the Volt is not available to me somewhere below $50,000 in the next 12 months (in L.A.), and the Leaf is, I’ll be driving a Leaf. Nissan’s comments re Volt not really being available to Joe Public are actually very persuasive (if true) as to which car will succeed in the marketplace.
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:13 pm)See my comment at #126.
What do you think? Is that true? It may help you decide if it is in fact true. I can’t find anything indicating you can not do this/both. Of course you prolly won’t know know till you try……lol
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:15 pm)Those considering the Leaf, keep in mind that many folks that lease the Miniy indicate they get 75-80 MPC. So assume you get a real life range in the Leaf 75-80 miles per charge.
/hope they have a completly bare bones “Sparrow” model…lol
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:17 pm)Yes, very enticing if true. But one catch seems to be the CA payouts are only good until the funding is exhausted. Per their documentation it looks like only $4,100,000 is available for Leaf rebates. So only 800 or so purchasers can get the rebate.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:21 pm)GM make something better than 40 miles range and then compare it to 100 miles range Leaf !
(Fot those hwo will write about range extender I DONT WAN TO USE A DROP OF GASOLINE ANY MORE ….just SOLAR POWER + 100% ELECTRIC CARS !
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:25 pm)Things which have styling like the Leaf were usually designed for their domestic market only. Which means they are making a last minute decision, too quick to even change the front end before releasing it to the US. Or, maybe they have no intention of selling them here. I’ll bet if they do show up, they’ll have Japanese manuals in the glove compartment and English ones laying on the seat.
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:27 pm)Is the leaf to the mini-e an apples to apples comparison? Ie same kw battery size/usable charge, drag, weight, engine size/power, rolling resistance, etc. I’m asking cause I’m curious if the mini-leaf real world range would actually be the same.
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:44 pm)Be wary, or wait. The only Battery-only Electric Vehicles initially available will advertise a range-per-charge of 100 miles. In actual driving, this will turn out to be 20 – 25% less. If Tesla is able to bring it’s model S to the road, it will be advertised with a range of 160 miles (base); and will be very expensive by comparison to the others. There is some doubt that Tesla will survive long enough to bring out this model.
We have been told that GM is going to bring out a BEV, but we don’t know when; probably not for 3 years. I hope it will have a range higher than the Tesla model S, but there is no way to know, this early.
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:47 pm)#126
Good catch! +1
Carlos Ghosn = “Dumb like a fox.”
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:50 pm)#131
Dollars to doughnuts it gets extended. If CA is actually going to implement Ahhnold’s beloved SB 32, the GHG reduction legislation, it is going to have to do some pretty radical stuff. This would actually look like “low hanging fruit” to me.
Come on BEV Spark!!!
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:54 pm)Nissan’s indecent haste to be first (and Ghosn’s over-the-top bravado) will come back to bite them in the end, IMHO.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:58 pm)I sure hope the Nissan Leaf doesn’t cost that much because that is way to expensive. I am interested in buying an all electric car, but not for that ridiculous price.
Mar 18th, 2010 (2:58 pm)Leaf is great. It makes Volt cheaper. Competition is good.
38K… are batteries included?
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:04 pm)Alas, the initial shortage of Volts is not hypothetical, based on GM’s stated production goals for the next 3 years. Whether GM will produce more Volts than they’ve announced, in order to meet high initial demand, is what’s unknown.
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:16 pm)Leaf should be sub $20K … Volt should be sub $30K … those are the magic pricepoints.
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:25 pm)Makes no sense to release the Volt without the ability to fill demand, especially when there’s a direct competitor. If GM says “it’s released, but you’ll have to get on our waiting list and we’ll let you know when a car is available, someday” then I believe a lot of early adopters will just walk over to Nissan to get an electric car. This is Nissan’s point – you can’t say the Volt is a competitor to the Leaf if nobody can actually get a Volt (similar to the FCX Clarity).
Seems like GM is coming at this weakly because: (i) GM is still unwilling to commit to this as a market trend (seems unlikely), (ii) GM doesn’t have the ability to ramp production as quickly as Nissan (troubling), or (iii) GM is going to be losing money on every car sold (due to pricing or reliability concerns) and thus wants to limit the number of Volts on the road (yikes, deja vu).
And no, I’m not a fanboy for the Leaf. I’d rather have a Volt. I’m just coming at this from many many years of trying to buy an EV, and sensing the same thing happening with the Volt as with the EV1, Rav4, HondaEV, etc. – i.e., “limited availability” = sorry, not for you guy.
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:34 pm)LOL. I’m not much of a gambler. The couple of times i bought a lottery ticket, I never even checked the winning numbers.
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:37 pm)If true, that would also make an impression on me. I heard that we tried to build them up with nonreciprocal trade agreements during the cold war because we were afraid they would go communist.
And, like all cold war based arrangements, once in place, they’re hard to change.
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:38 pm)They allied with us at towards the end of the cold war, which I believe had a lot to do with bringing down the Soviet Union.
Now? Nothing that I can think of.
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:40 pm)I dunno bro. I haven’t looked at eithers deteiled specs. It was just an observation from Lyle and other Mini lease owners that have posted here. The percentages I gave are from them. The Mini’s 100 mile advertised range made it easy to get a percentage…lol
Lyles said get’s about 75 miles and some other posters said they get 80 miles. IMHO, sounds like a reasonable assumption?
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:47 pm)Can’t really argue with any of this.
I hope what we’re seeing is just a difference in style. Ghosn goes overboard like Crazy Eddie at a car lot, blowing hot air through a bullhorn, while GM stays low-key; holding it’s cards close to the vest. I’d like to think that the announced GM production goals are malleable based on actual demand (Ghosn has admitted as much, but in terms of lowering production), and that we will be reading about an increase over 60,000 Volts a year, 18 months from now.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:51 pm)Don’t I wish! The three Chevy dealers we used to have around here have closed or jumped ship. We live in a suburban area, but the nearest dealer is now 30 miles away. Am I dreaming to hope they will recharge my Volt battery when I take it in for service?
Mar 18th, 2010 (3:52 pm)If you check out the MSRP on each of these, their performance in class and overall on and off road commuting and recreation capability, you’ll see why I got what I did to start.
Wow, CA used really rigorous eligibility requirements on at-vehicle efficiency, performance and roadworthiness relative to each vehicle’s class. This is an at-vehicle list to respect, IMHO. And 7 of the 8 vehicles have an existing recharging infrastructure that makes them practical today and for the forseeable future.
The asterisk for the ZEM at the bottom is that you have to sign up for the warranty extension option trim above the base model to get the rebate, which eats up about half the rebate, but also gives you a warranty that’s twice as long, a decent bargain overall IMHO (CA actually pays you to extend your warranty and then gives you more loot).
Regardless, I’m far beyond the full warranty in mine and still going strong with no annual gas engine maintenance costs and like new performance (see how many horses, down from original specs, have leaked out your tailpipe by the time your gasser warranty expires). Yes, I do a T-CLOCS 45 point inspection before I get on, every single time, but that’s 8 points less than a gasser takes.
My maintenance savings alone has already paid for a new power pack, but I don’t need one yet…
If you think that all that means that I think the BEVS are the only solution, you are wrong.
Go, Volt.
Mar 18th, 2010 (4:03 pm)Still waiting on the Focus Electric price…
I’m hoping I’ll be pleasantly surprised.
Mar 18th, 2010 (4:05 pm)LOL! That’s the funniest thing I’ve read for weeks. And so true!
Mar 18th, 2010 (4:06 pm)They ought to. Seems like they would need a 3hr recharging capability in order to service the cars. It would also be a great way to build business for the 220V charger option. “Gee, I wish I could charge it that fast at home.” “Guess what! You can…” (This is just the sort of thing that a dealer, with Volt price gouging discouraged, would see as a money-making opportunity).
I may be dreaming, but what if you could get your Volt charged at a Chevy dealer without service? The pack charging characteristics are not linear, you might get half charge in an hour (and wouldn’t dealerships love to get some feet on the lot from their existing customers, who are ready to tell prospective buyers how much they love their Volts?).
Mar 18th, 2010 (4:15 pm)Me 2.
Mar 18th, 2010 (4:20 pm)Maybe the plain-Jane, no-frills, ICE-only version should be called “Sparrow” and the BEV version (built on the same frame with a distinctive body), should be called “Spark” …
(Late night TV comedian: “I guess the name ‘Frayed Electrical Cord’ was taken!” audience laughter)
Hmm, well maybe not.
Mar 18th, 2010 (4:32 pm)They could call it the EREV for people who like imports!
Mar 18th, 2010 (4:37 pm)First, it wasn’t Chu’s idea to use white material on the roofs of commercial buildings — he borrowed it. But it’s a great idea. You have to make the roof some color, so why not make it white, which greatly reduces how hot the roof gets and therefore the need for air conditioning. How hard is this? People have used similar designs for hundreds of years. In fact tile roofs work well by allowing air pockets to become effective insulators. For similar reasons solar panels are also effective insulators. They sit a few inches above the roofs, thereby shading the roof and keeping it cooler.
As you mention, solar panels are black for an entirely different reason — efficiency. The more sunlight the panel absorbs the more electricity it can create. And the more sunlight it absorbs the darker it looks. It wouldn’t be possible to produce a panel which reflected sunlight and absorbed it at the same time.
Not sure why you think these things are contradictory. You make roofs white so you don’t need to air condition the building, and you make efficient solar panels that appear black so, when you have to air condition the building, you don’t have to burn fossil fuel to do so.
Mar 18th, 2010 (4:38 pm)I thought California was broke. And no rebate for the Volt? What about the Ford Focus EV? Or even GM’s hydrogen powered fuel cell car?
Mar 18th, 2010 (4:40 pm)Maybe it will be easy for GM to convert Cruze production to Volt or (Heaven forbid) visa versa.
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (4:40 pm)Yes, I’ve been aware of this possibility for some time. Did you notice that it also includes a $3000 credit for a “PHEV”? I’m almost positive they would include EREV in their definition of that.
Yep, that’s the other hooker. I keep reminding myself that I have to pay and/or finance the full amount the first year … unless I should be so unexpectedly lucky as to take possession before Dec 31.
-2
Mar 18th, 2010 (4:49 pm)Forget the EREV and Price points….does no one else think the the LEaf is as ugly as the original “doo doo” brown color of the Volt?
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:03 pm)When it comes down to signing for a new car. Will be hard to pass on the Volt knowing the Leaf will provide about 80-90 miles range before recharge downtime.
The Leaf is a giant step up from short range GEM cars. Freeway capable albeit for just an hour at a time. Is the hardcore pool of urban green drivers deep enough to consume Leaf production? We’ll know as “real” deposits are taken on the Leaf next month.
=D-Volt
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:22 pm)OT: New JD Power dependability survey is out.
Porsche had 110 problems per 100 vehicles.
Lincoln 114 problems.
Buick and Lexus in a tie with 115 problems.
Mercury with 121.
Toyota with 128.
Honda with 132.
Ford with 141.
Mercedes-Benz with 142.
Acura with 143.
Hyundai with 148.
Cadillac with 150.
Infiniti with 150.
Subaru with 155.
The rest were all below average.
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:23 pm)Yeah, +34! LOL. A VERY god day.
Be well,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:26 pm)Yeah we’re broke but I guess they think the state gubbment has some funds somewhere.
As for the Volt, they have language stipulating “PHEV” of which I would guess the Volt quals for. I dunno if it would get the full $5,000.00, but Itching4it @160 notes that it will get ~$3,000.00.
So if unemployment here in CA wasn’t so jacked up maybe they would sell more come Dec 2010?
+2
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:32 pm)Well- where do I start. First, let me say that I am a BIG fan of the Volt and the EREV idea- but I am also a big fan of pure BEVs. Yes, an EREV will give the ability to go much longer without finding a plug- for most this will make an EREV the first choice as a primary car. But most families have more than one car, and and a BEV with a range around 100 miles will work very well. What is missing for BEVs to completely take over the market is a quick-charge infrastructure- better batteries would be nice as well. Even with current Li-Ion tech, the newer chemistries are much safer and can accept a fast charge. You would want to do this everyday? Probably not- but almost everyone, almost everyday, will not NEED a daily quick charge- like their cellphones and bluetooth headsets and Ipods, we will get used to plugging our EVs in at night.
Additionally, in the long run a BEV has a much better upside than a EREV- less parts to break will be the biggest, less weight from lugging the generator around, and no tailpipe emissions at all. Do that, in conjuction with green generation of energy, and you will see a large chunk of our health care be taken care of as a bonus;-)
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:43 pm)Is that one of those rhetoricals? (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:45 pm)Forgot to add……
IF you can double dip this, the $12,500.00 would more than cover a Solar package for the regular home up to ~3KW home setup after state a fed solar rebates (note: most solar installers front the rebates)…….maybe.
Then you’ll be literally driving on solar energy!
/u drooling yet carcus1?
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:47 pm)Rest up! That H1N1 can be unforgiving – especially for you young folks.
Take 2 aspirins and a Prospectus to bed.
Be well,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:48 pm)Don’t forget lugging that heavy generator up to speed also stuffs more charge into the batteries when you slow down or stop! If I had to chose between lead weights or a generator, well you know.
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:55 pm)Sadly true. I was looking for some CAFE info the other day and ran across some car mfg numbers. I believe they were for capacity but it may be production. From some point in the past (I believe it was 1960 but could have been 70 or 80) US car mfg has dropped 29% in absolute unit terms, while Japan is +220% and Europe is ~+100%(?).
Mar 18th, 2010 (5:59 pm)I think that you are correct that this is a real possibility. I just feel bad for the impatient ones that buy a LEAF.
Be well,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:05 pm)#161
OMG, I missed that. Good catch! +1
Mar 18th, 2010 (6:07 pm)Yea, H1N1 is for real. Make sure you’ve kicked it before doing too much. My step-brother nearly died from it this January. He was in an induced coma and on a respirator for a few weeks. I know of a couple of others, friends of friends, that were in the hospital on respirators. This is one serious bug if you don’t get treated in a timely manner.
Good to hear your on the other side of the infection. Get well soon!
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:26 pm)Off Topic -
Lyle,
Thank you for the recent contest and chance to drive the Volt.
However, could you see if you can use your influence at GM to see if they will have a contest like Opel, only for a free Volt (I expect Nasaman will be going to Europe for the free Ampera, so that will lessen the competition for us here stateside).
http://media.opel.com/content/media/intl/en/news/news_detail.brand_opel.html/content/Pages/news/intl/en/2010/OPEL/03_18_greenest_driver_will_win
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:36 pm)The Tesla Model S is $50k AFTER the rebate. And this is for base model 100 mile range, upgrade to 300 mile range possible. The Model S is positioned as a luxury car competing against other $50k cars, The Volt and Leaf will be in the low $30k, not in the same market.
I am astounded that Mitsubishi increased production of the iMiev as it is over $40k but there is more demand than I would have thought for such a small car.
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:45 pm)Take the middle ground on that and you get $41,450
OTD = $46,500 with all taxes and fees in So Cal. (estimated)
Since your $7500 federal tax credit comes off your return and not directly to you, here is what you can expect:
At 5.90% APR for 72 months…
With Zero Down: $768.45
With $5,000 down: $685.82
With $10,000 down: $603.19
So, start saving up those pennies for a healthy down payment. I suppose if you drive a lot and save $240 per month or more on gasoline, it’s not so bad.
Mar 18th, 2010 (7:54 pm)Is it just me, or does the ‘face’ on the Ampera looks like it was stolen off of a Cylon (ala Battlestar Galactica)…?
Mar 18th, 2010 (8:04 pm)What are the details on the CARB deal?
Mar 18th, 2010 (8:10 pm)OUCH! How about 0% financing?
Be well,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
Mar 18th, 2010 (8:54 pm)Nice of you to provide these numbers. I think some people are going to be surprised by the payments, and your base price is conservative. I’m thinking the transaction price will be closer to $44K.
Hopefully Dan is right about the luxury ride being the best he’s ever experienced because the Volt will be in the luxury class as far as car payments are concerned.
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:12 pm)There appears to be a total of $4.1M available to BEVs and pluggables, including “neighborhood” vehicles but not including commercial vehicles and motorcycles which have an additional $2.4M and $0.8M respectively. It’s first-come-first-served until the money is gone. In addition to specific limits by vehicle class ($5000 and $3000 for BEV and PHEV), the rebate is limited to 10% of the vehicle value and 50% of the additional cost of the EV feature. Multiple federal/state/local rebates and credits are allowed, so long as they don’t add up to more than the total cost of the vehicle. (I wish!)
I misspoke in my earlier post. This is a rebate, payable within sixty days of application, as opposed to the federal $7500 tax credit.
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:19 pm)That’s pretty much what I was figuring on. It’s nice to be retired with several sources of lifetime guaranteed income and a home mortgage that will be paid off this summer. [grin]
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:28 pm)Hmmmmm, I was thinking just the opposite – that his figure was *high*. I’m thinking more like 34K. Then eventually, get the 7500 tax credit. “Comfortably under 30K”. Corvette Guy, could you run the #’s with a 34K sticker?
Be well,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:44 pm)$35,000 Volt or $35,000 Leaf. No thanks. I’ll wait for the ecoboost version of the Fiesta to arrive. I’ll spend half the money.
Seriously, this next generation of electric cars that will come out will only demonstrate the hard lesson we learned in the 90′s. Electrics are too freakin’ expensive to go mainstream. But really, they shouldn’t be.
The issue of price has demoralized me towards EREVs and pretty much all electrics. My passion for the Volt is pretty much dead. Sure, it’s a nice car. But I don’t have that kind of money. And these days, neither do most potential car buyers.
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:47 pm)How’d you like to adopt a shrink?
Be well,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:55 pm)Guys, in my case, I work in sales and I drive people a lot for work and my employer pays me about $0.60/mile.
So let’s say, since I drive 500 miles/month on average, my employer gives me $300 to cover gas costs.
In this case, if I buy a Tesla electric car and I pay $55K for it, that would give me a monthly payment for $911 (72 months).
Then for personal driving I spend about $200/month in gas.
So if I take that into account, it seems I could end up with payment of $450/month. For those of us getting reimbursement for gas expenses a Tesla Model S seems to be the way to go!
+3
Mar 18th, 2010 (9:55 pm)There are tons of less expensive alternative vehicles and there is no doubt that early adopters will bear the brunt of the costs. I may well not be able to afford an early Volt either, but eventually I’ll have one. Of this I have no doubt.
Be well,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:15 pm)I just reflected on where we are in this journey. Do you realize we’ll probably know pricing in just 4 or 5 months?!?! That’s awesome. Volt, you’ve come a long way baby. I hope you bury the catfish in the mud. Time will tell. I think I’m starting to get excited. But, like you Tag, it may not be right away, but we’ll get there in a year or three.
It’ll be a thrill to see those first Volts on the road and in the showroom. I’m starting to get a taste in my mouth for test driving one. I can almost smell blood in the water.
Mar 18th, 2010 (10:50 pm)Amen on all counts! And just today I got an email with directions to the site of the contest test drives at the end of THIS month! Talk about sweaty palms (lol)!
Be well,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:11 pm)Warning, this will be OT:Japan’s markets are essentially closed.
As far as US auto sales, perspective requires stepping back from Japanes decisions on their domestic market and looking at the market in general.
After WWII world was won, passenger car manufacturing was decimated. Markets for cars didn’t exist and the vast bulk of buying that previously existed, from the worlds militaries, simply ceased. The few economies that could form both markets and competitive OEM’s were dominated by the capabilities of the US. As the war was not fought on our soil We had tremendous pent up demand and an intact industrial base. Factories were converted to begin to sate that demand. We then began to rebuild the world economies and with Bretton Woods, became the worlds industrial supplier, enjoying hegemony for years to come.
We (my granparents generation ) spread a more robust democracy and a vibrant capitalism around the world, we out competed communism and established the growth of the worlds industrial base. Having competitors was by our choice and design after viewing the failures following WWI. Our competitors successes are also our triumphs, and not a form of defeat. The US still maintains the largest most vibrant economy ever, 65 years later.
Look at it like the industrial worlds Sports Illustrated effect ( or curse). After your team has crushed and dominated the competition you will surely make the cover of SI. Though realistically, after sixty years on the cover, your competitors will learn some things from you, come up with some tricks of their own and eventually, share some cover time themselves.That’s the SI curse and statistically we crushed the odds by staying on that cover for so long. Good luck kids, now go back to work
+1
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:47 pm)The Volt is way more affordable and practical than the EV1 ever was. You might not be able to afford it right away, but there are many people who can and will. And each Volt sold will make the air a little cleaner, and make us a little bit more energy independent.
But, more importantly, eventually the price will come down. Just like they needed to make $20,000 plasma before they could get to today’s $1000 LCDs, these Volts are a necessary stepping stone to tomorrow’s cheaper and better ones. If you can wait for the Fiesta, you might be able to wait for the gen 2 Volt. Or one of it’s cheaper siblings.
Mar 18th, 2010 (11:58 pm)I agree that we shouldn’t aim for a situation where the rest of the world is dependent on us, and we’re the only industrial power. No one’s advocating our return to the position we had after WWII. But if you don’t aim for the top, you get nowhere.
We need to focus on on our own triumphs. Not root for everyone’s else. Capitalism is about competition. And we need to look out for our own interests. Basically, we need to stop running a trade deficit. Right now debt is our largest export. And that’s unsustainable.
The major issue I have is that 65 years later, our standard of living has gone down. Not up. And it’s continuing to decline. And we’re accumulating debt at a dizzying rate. That’s not about the rest of the world. It’s about us.
We have to compete. And that means balanced trade agreements. It means balancing production and consumption. Instead of always favoring consumption. We’re not as strong as we were. So we need to realize it. Accept and start trying to make ourselves stronger.
Mar 19th, 2010 (1:01 am)Congrats to you! (Is there a list of who is going?). Just make sure you give us lots and lots of impressions. You should have an absolutely great time.
Mar 19th, 2010 (1:04 am)Congrats Tag,
It’s been an interesting year or three so far!! Enjoy your driving!
Mar 19th, 2010 (1:06 am)For some reason I’m getting visions of Tony Soprano ….
Mar 19th, 2010 (1:12 am)Very valid points. The world will continue to change in ways we never could have imagined. As a nation we seem to make big changes only when faced with a crisis. I supose to get consensus on direction and plan for good outcomes will alwayss appear far too socialist, except during a crisis.
+1
Mar 19th, 2010 (1:42 am)Gesundheit.
Mar 19th, 2010 (2:17 am)Some impressions from back in the day.
In the early 1960′s I was very happy with my toys made of mostly metal wood and card board and later my books and magazines. My dad supported us while my mom finished college. In the late sixties the variety of plastic toys was amazing, I liked the new mustangs and reel to reel tape players were cool too. If I missed out not having an x-box, video game libraries, wii, game boys, big screen flat TV’s, computers, high speed internet access, iPhones, cable that spanned the globe, DVD collections and iPOD + itunes functionality, wireless phones, granite counter tops and cars that go 0 to sixty in 4 seconds, I didn’t realize it. Maybe the standard of living has eroded or expectations are a lot higher.
Strength and security feel a lot different in a world shrunken by transportation advances, when always on communications bring the worlds problems, hatreds and fears to our living rooms all day every day. When I was young people were preoccupied with bomb shelters and Soviet agression. It was hard to see our great strenghts when it seemed one misstep would end in nuclear annihilation.
Fortunately 24 hour news and internet bloggers were not constantly projecting the exact shape and form of our imminent doom. Today we expect to have clean air and water, endangered species will be given a chance to live, kids in all areas will have acceptable schools, waterways will be public amenities not just industrial facilities and the military homeland security will have the massive budgets needed to completely protect us when the technology of mass killing has spread through out the globe.
We have millions more people here to care for and try to get along with while trying to live sustainably. Our economy has expanded tremendously since then. Health care requires expensive tests that seem like something from science fiction, and a team of high paid specialists. The list of what we must have now that did not exist when I was a kid stretches beyond your arm. Many families spend more on bottled water than the monthly payments for a new car in the sixties, perhaps even adjusted for inflation. If you told someone in the sixties you would pay a dollar for a bottle of water, you would be committed for psychiatric evaluation.
Mar 19th, 2010 (8:29 am)LOL, I’m not nearly so intimidating…… normally. But this *is* a pretty unusual set of circumstances (g). Any idea where I can buy a box of dead fish?
Be well,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
Mar 19th, 2010 (9:17 am)OK, that was probably a joke and I’m too dumb to get it, but they will never be putting lead weights in electric cars unless you only drive downhill. As always, what you get back in deceleration is always less than what you put in during acceleration, unless your regen is > 100% efficient. It’s that darned physics thing again.
But it is funny to see Porsche at the top of the JD Power dependability survey. Can any other car compare again one which never sees rain, never sees snow, never sees potholes… Also Porsche drivers are perhaps the biggest fanatics out there. Ever see one with the Porsche hat, Porsche shirt, Porsche underwear, etc — do you really think they are going to give their car a bad rating??
Mar 19th, 2010 (10:24 am)#188
My sentiments exactly. +1
Mar 19th, 2010 (10:28 am)#198
LOL. Thanks. +1
Mar 19th, 2010 (12:01 pm)Wow, as I sit in my heatpump heated living room, keying on a 4cpu 6gb monster computer, TIVOing thru another commercial on my 57 inch mega tv with surround sound, rubbing my toe from the bump I got hitting the WII Balance board someone didn’t put away properly, wishing my v5 Roomba (not a crappy discovery model) would vacuum quieter … working from home…
How the heck has your standard of living gone down??? Mine sure hasn’t.
Mar 19th, 2010 (12:16 pm)I agree that things that didn’t even exist then now seem like necessities. However, housing has become much more expensive in real terms. College has become more a necessity, while also becoming much more expensive. Medical care has improved dramatically, but it has also become significantly more expensive. It’s also much much more difficult to save for retirement. While pensions have become practically nonexistent outside of the public sector.
The percentage of income that people spend on discretionary items has plummeted while debt has skyrocketed. To me, that means we’re significantly worse off.
Mar 19th, 2010 (12:18 pm)I must have missed this post the first time around. Congratulations! I’m looking forward to hearing your report.
Mar 19th, 2010 (12:57 pm)#205
Well I sure wish I could figure out how to retire, LOL. To your list I would also add that job security as we knew it in my younger days has largely vanished. Just ask Captain Jack. Or MuddyRoverRob. Or several others of our fellow bloggers right here. And defined benefit pensions. We are going to muddle through somehow, but I truly fear for the futures of my two sons and my grandson.
Mar 19th, 2010 (3:22 pm)The numbers that Nissan throws around for this car are so unrealistic. Lets look at that 500,000 production target for 2012 (less than 2 years away).
Toyota (pushing asside the issues they’ve had lately), which has been making the Prius since the late 90′s and has had a moderately “good” car since the 2004 version, just in the last year or so was going to reach 450,000 produced worlwide yearly – not even 500,000, and that was with 50% production increases a couple of times in the last half of this decade with Oil going through the roof. Honda was only selling about 20k or so of Civic Hybrids per year. These numbers for a technology most people are passingly familiar with.
If Nissan makes 500,000 Leaf’s in 2012 – they will literally be giving them away as they go bankrupt, that 500,000 number has to be a future capacity number or just propaganda.
Any price from $37k – $44k is also way too high for all but the rich tech/electric heads, even with the tax credit – Nissan would be lucky to sell 50,000 worldwide in 2012 (and that would be an accomplishment) at these prices. This price range would be a gift to GM to ensure the Volt will sell out its production runs in the early years – cause who wouldn’t rather have a Volt for the same price?
To be really successful, the Leaf needs to be down near $30k before the tax credit, JMHO of course.
It’ll be interesting to see what the actual production and price numbers are from Nissan – these early numbers thrown out there make no sense, unless Nissan wants to disappear by the end of 2012.
Mar 20th, 2010 (9:11 am)Oh, my point wasn’t to decry the advances of other economies nor was I unaware of our hand in rebuilding some of them. I completely agree that we are better off living in a world with strong democratic economies across the board rather than one or a few strong ones forcibly dominating a bunch of weak ones. Afganistan illustrates this excellently. After 2 bone headed rebuilding (streatch of the term) efforts there, hopefully this third time is the charm
My beef isn’t against the globalizing world economy, rather it is with our performance and efforts in it. As LauraM was pointing out, we have to not only compete on a corporate level but on a national level. By national level, I mean infrustructure and leveling the playing field. We have done an OK job of focusing on particular industries or products but not on national efforts such as currency valuation or lack of intellectual property governance or product safety controls. I don’t know if it’s true, but if Japan’s EV incentives exclude US products, then it is our government’s responsibility to raise the issue and take action if needed.
My comments were meant to augment LauraM’s point, while also expanding on a topic (actually an off-topic) from a previous thread. That older conversation was regarding the issue of over-capacity in the car industry and in US manufacturing in particular. My point then was that we hadn’t really built over-capacity in US carmaker’scmanfacturing as much as that we under-competed and lost market share.
I also think the US consumer should think more globally. What company is the product coming from? What country? How do they treat my company and country? What level of safety and intellectual controls do they employ? The moldy sheet rock fiasco has not been fully realized. The cost associated with properly fixing those issues are stupendous.
By the way, here is the quote that contained the info I was recalling:
From Wickepedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy
“Since 1980, the traditional Japanese manufacturers have increased their combined fleet average fuel economy by 1.6 miles per gallon according to the March 30, 2009 Summary of Fuel Economy Performance published annually by NHTSA. During this time, they also increased their sales in the US by 221%. The traditional European manufacturers actually decreased their fleet average fuel economy by 2 miles per gallon while increasing their sales volume by 91%. The traditional US manufacturers, Chrysler, Ford and General Motors, increased their fleet average fuel economy by 4.1 miles per gallon since 1980 according to the latest government figures. During this time the sales of US manufacturers decreased by 29%.”
Mar 25th, 2010 (9:29 pm)Is it just me, or does the Leaf look like an ugly fish?
Mar 27th, 2010 (11:54 am)CAMARO CAMARO CAMAROOOOO
Apr 2nd, 2010 (1:04 am)Nissan Leaf vs Chevrolet Volt
An electric car war is amping up at the New York International Auto Show. Vote, comment and discover what the web thinks:
http://www.vsizer.com/index.php?action=show&idComparison=7481
Vote via Facebook:
http://www.vsizer.com/fb/?rd=7481