Bob Lutz and Jon Lauckner are credited as having devised the Chevy Volt concept in 2006. They charged executive engineers Tony Posawatz, Nick Zielinski and John Bereisa with making it happen.
Though Lutz is retiring, and Bob Kruse, Denise Gray, and Frank Weber have left the program, Lauckner and Posawatz remain deeply involved and committed leaders of the Voltec team.
Recently we heard that GM’s President of North America suspects pure electrics will dominate the market in the long term but believes fully that the Volt will lead the market for the next several years. According to some new information, it seems likely that reflects GMs internal plan going forward.
Lutz in a recent exit interview told the Associated Free Press that GM plans to keep building trucks and SUVs but also expects to hybridize or electrify the majority of them to meet future fuel economy standards.
He also told the reporter that GM is “planning a separate line of all-electric vehicles that won’t have backup gas engines like the Volt does.”
Lauckner made a similar statement to the AP. He said GM plans to spread lithium ion cells across all of its vehicle lines over the next 5 years. The extent to which GM will do so depends on the cost of the technology and fuel prices.
“We certainly understand that the electrification of the vehicle goes beyond just talking about the Chevrolet Volt,” he said. “We need a range of technologies and we have a plan that does that.”
Neither man announced what car will be next, though Lauckner also noted GM plans to put its 2-mode full hybrid drivetrain into sedans. A plugin version has also been demonstrated in the Cadillac XTS concept.
Source (AP)
+8
Mar 15th, 2010 (6:43 am)As I have said before, just build them, and we will make up our minds on which design we like the best…
NPNS
+9
Mar 15th, 2010 (6:45 am)This is all great news. GM has the experience to do this. I hope that many of their hybrid cars with a battery will also come with a plug so that fuel use is optimized. Getting into the pure electric game is also smart since they already have the systems and battery developments that will feed right into a pure electric.
Go GM!
+4
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:05 am)Iv been saying all along i will not buy a new truck until i can plug it in. ANd i won,t buy a new car of any kind cuz i have no use for it. But possibly a van.
+8
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:12 am)This is better than hearing about the unrecoverable costs and technological shortcomings, but I am most interested in production. Which cars are approved for production? What is the path to production? I understand they may want to be coy about specifics for strategic reasons, but this is the level planning I hope they are at. My concern is that all of the real, subtle and otherwise, actions tell otherwise:
-Converj killed with no revision plan.
-LG battery capacity being planned in the US maxes out at 60K Volt sized batteries per year when it is completed in 2012. It thought the two-mode plug-in was announced to use the same cells.
-Two-mode plug-in was supposed to start shipping late this year but GM hasn’t even announced the model that will get it.
-Only product announced with FWD two-mode anything is the Caddy and no set production date.
-Since Converj’s death, no other active NA Voltec model.
BTW, Cruze was delayed but all I can find is 3rd quarter release. Nothing more specific. Is it now on the 2010 production dealer ordering schedule that we saw a version of earlier this year (Corvetteguy to the rescue)?
This is a whole lot of pessimism, I know, but I’m just tired of lip service. I want tangible signals and the only thing tangible is that the Volt will start production this year and that the first year’s production will be 8-12K units. Beyond that, we’ll have to wait and see. I’m good with this as far as the Volt is concerned. It’s the other steps, or aparent non-steps, that concern me.
+3
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:13 am)Looks like Bob is getting ready to invert and practice the V part of the Volt dance. The pink tie should be okay with that big bling clip.
=D-Volt
+4
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:16 am)I would like to see the CUV or Truck concepts for the EV’s or PEV’s.
I will buy the one that is most like a MiniVAN with seats that come out. No frills… just built good with the most utility.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:21 am)Time line will be a lot longer than we would like. It takes time for the price to come down on new tech. It is best for GM do fallow more than one path.
+9
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:22 am)I must admit to being skeptical about the practicality and competitiveness of foreseeable BEV technology, UNLESS I assume GM has discovered ways to dramatically reduce:
1) the time needed to recharge Li-Ion without adversely affecting lifetime (<10 minutes)
2) the cost of Li-Ion batteries large enough to achieve a practical daily range (>150 miles)
3) the huge task of persuading oil companies to install high-rate chargers at most gas stations
These three obstacles are truly gigantic as I see it. So while I can see making plans for a BEV product line taking form in perhaps 10-15 years, I remain convinced the Voltec architecture can remain highly competitive with BEVs in cost, range and practicality for many years to come.
So for a pretty long time I’ll have to conclude (like Tagamet)… No ER, No sale!
+13
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:28 am)My son has a hybrid. All current hybrids start the morning with a hybrid battery that has less than 70% charge. If they had a plug, they could start with a full charge, making them less gas dependant. GM please don’t waste your time and money making hybrids without a plug.
NPNS!
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:35 am)These “multiple Hybrids and a line of pure Electric Cars” that GM is planning, they’ll be advertising them? Yes, no, maybe?
+5
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:42 am)As a Cadillac owner, I am looking forward to the XTS. I love my Deville, and it gets good gas mileage for a big six-passenger 1990′s technology car (20-21 every tankful, mostly city/country roads diving, a solid 28 on long highway trips) but it is woefully inadequate for the long term future.
I would like to see 35-40 city highway for me to feel good about buying a big Caddy for the long term. Maybe the Voltec technology will be advanced by then to the degree GM can give the XTS a 40 mile all-electric range like the Volt. But at least give it cutting edge two-mode hybrid technology, which is what I understand they are planning.
I hope GM does that car in a totally world class way. Cadillac should be the Standard of the World, and nothing less.
+11
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:44 am)I am sort of left scratching my head over these remarks. The news of All Electric cars has been supported both recently and many months ago, (Ruess’s recent comments a few threads ago and Lutz saying “after you have done the Volt, an All-Electric would be elementary). The only ways I can see GM pursuing All-Electrics is if the following are in reach:
A) They are adament about holding the title of the “EV specialists” and refuse to cede any ground to the competitors such as Nissan and their bold claims. Therefore an All-Electric is needed to say, “Hey, we got one of those too!”.
B) This is speculation also, but it is conceivable that GM and the battery companies are getting a handle on the technology and are seeing dramatic increases in range and cost efficiencies. Range, cost, and quick charging are the 3 largest stumbling blocks with EV’s. If they are confident that 200 or 300 mile ranges (or more) in batteries that are the same physical sizes as they are now, and not any more expensive to build, then why wouldn’t they pursue these vehicles? Patil from Compact Power recently supported the cost per KWH coming down dramatically. Numerous GM people have said time and again their prime goal with Volt Gen 2 will be to get the price down. Also, consider the mere fact that soooo many car companies are pursuing electric drivetrains of some variety. You would have to assume a genuine profit making market must be in reach, or they wouldn’t be investing in it with this much enthusiasm.
Without more insight, it’s hard to see the big picture that the car companies may be seeing. But from the sound of it, we are going to have A LOT more choices in the coming years. I can’t help but smile about that.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:47 am)I’ve been thinking about this for some time now, and I’ve concluded that gm needs to commit to the public an near unlimited voltec production capacity. They will alay all concerns on the part of john q. If they came out and said, ” give us $xxxx and prequalify for financing and we will build your voltec vehicle to order” not have some arbitrary preset production limit, that kind of confidence in your product will encourage adoption from people who might be on the fence over this much new technology, or people scared to come back to a us automaker who remember the 80′s. When a company says we want to limit our potential liability with a product that has yet to be released, it makes me want to limit my liability by avoiding said product also.
All this said, I want the volt to succeed. I believe as alot of others here that the world needs to adopt ev’s and the volt is the best step in that direction right now. I just don’t want to see it flop because of mis-management. Remember this car will be made by NGMCO not GM because of past management failures.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:55 am)Sings, “PLUG IT IN, PLUG IT IN…” – A catchy TV jingle for an air freshener.
RECHARGE! James
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:59 am)This is great But if they do not stress Quality over all else they will not be around to do it.
Tom
+14
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:00 am)Nasaman,
I don’t know that GM has to persuade gas stations to put in chargers. I would persuade McDonald’s and other fast food places to do it. Think about the synergy. If a reasonable amount of charge could be put into the car in 30 minutes, that would dovetail with your pit stop and burger and fries. If they made a small profit on the electricity, it would be a win/win/win for the franchise. They could market as environmental/energy security conscious, they would sell food to customers who are essentially captive, and they would even make a little cash doing so.
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:33 am)The first two are almost here (A123 cells can be fast charged in 15 minutes) but the third one is a hard one. I dont think there will ever be a commercially successful fast charge station.. most people will just charge slowly overnight. You will not be willing to pay $10 to fast charge your BEV except when you are on a rare long distance trip and have no recourse.. the gov will have to subsidize fast charge station on the highways and truck stops. We tend to think about fast refueling as a necessity but its just something we have gotten used to for the last 100 years. Expect things to change.
I even have my doubts about recharging spots on the street and parking lots.
+6
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:33 am)Don’t you love how the Google Ads for the Nissan LEAF are starting to pop up on this site? So, if Lyle gets a few pennies per click, it’s ironic that Nissan is helping to pay for part of his VOLT.
+3
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:33 am)I’d like to see a McDonald’s-like banner sign under every Chevrolet dealer’s street sign reading: “OVER ! MILLION VOLTS SOLD”.
It’s not imminent, but it is very doable – very possible. I’m with those who have stated thumb’s down plus to those who just pop in to slam GM. We do own 60% of the corporation now. And yes, they do not act as if we do own 60%. We look for them to unlearn their petroleum partnership role they’ve played so well in the 20th century.
Several posters have commented that showing a sheik getting Pied on Pi day was negative, and that most contest essays were negative, speaking of nationalism and pollution.
Let’s get one thing straight. The Volt is one HUGE positive. But the reasons it’s platform will not spread throughout trucks and family vehicles with range to perform as a single vehicle for a home are EXTREMELY negative. EXTREMELY.
No sugar coating it, the USA is vying desperately all over the globe to secure diminishing resources of crude oil. It’s just fact. Without crude oil our country is not only hobbled, it’s nearly defunct.
Because of this, we spend hundreds of billions of dollars protecting, dealing and diplomatically dealing each year to insure we have a lion’s share. Venezuela, our “good buddy Hugo” to the South, he really likes America. Of course, as the second largest importer of oil to the USA, you can always count on him dining with Ahmenidijad or Castro, Moanmar Kadhafi or just having the first nuclear navy excercises in the Western Hemisphere with the Russians since the end of the Cold War.
If you like these nice fellas, well, go ahead and keep saying negativism is the rule here with gm-voltnationers. I call it realism and activism.
If you think thousands of our boys and girls die in war for world peace, and not oil – do a Google search, or watch some YouTube of U.S. Defense Secretarys decrying how we must secure Iraq’s oil ( 4th largest importer to USA ) and protect it from Iran. Observe the full carrier group you are paying for daily protecting the huge oil terminus in the Persian Gulf off the Southern tip of Iraq – or calculate how much a human life is worth.
Since we know GM is motivated purely by profits and not national interest, we need to be smart activists and not feel our posts here will change the world. Here are some places some of us may not be currently trying to get the message across to GM:
1) Your local dealership. Some here are on local dealer lists for Volt. But I imagine not all 51,000 on the list here. We need to step out of our homes and down to the dealer and place our money where our mouths are-putting money down if need be. My nearest two Chevy dealerships not only don’t have a Volt waiting list – they laugh about it, and quote Prius crash stories. Let’s make our dealer networks take the Volt seriously.
2) Your city, county, state and federal Congressperson. Let’s contact our governents on all levels as they make decisions on appropration of funds to build EV recharging sites and convey public opinion. Tell them we will invest personally in extended-range vehicles even more than we have done already (unvoluntarily). Tell them it is a priority for us to consider their re-election.
3) Be creative. Post articles – create conversation groups. Make videos, post them on the net. Try to create buzz about what a more oil-free world means to everyone. Educate re: EREV vs. BEV beyond your watercooler, golf buddy and family circle.
4) Contact local media. I personally hope the people who actually get to go drive the Volt in NYC contact their town, and major city news outlets – Newspaper and Television – and inform them they have won a contest to go drive the REVOLUTIONARY EREV GM has made prior to production. Buzz buzz buzz buzz to the people.
RECHARGE! James
+3
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:41 am)Nasaman,
Similar to the comment by hercule, I would say that we do not need to encourage oil companies to install fast chargers. Restaurants (fast or otherwise), grocery stores, parking garages, shopping malls, private businesses, DMVs, shoot, almost anywhere where you would expect to spend at least ten minutes could all potentially have some financial or other motivation to allow chargers to be placed on their property.
And while it’s been much debated, respectfully, I would say that a range of 150 (real world) miles is a bit overkill in my book. While it is entirely anecdotal and personal, I can’t think of a single day since Christmas where I traveled more than 150 miles and that’s coming up on a quarter of a year. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to have this range in an BEV but, as you mention, the cost is prohibitive given the current economics of Li-ion and it seems most people that purchase a BEV understand it to be a commuter/local transportation tool.
To borrow a phrase, be well.
+5
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:43 am)Well, it certainly sounds ambitious. This fits in with what they said earlier about battery costs coming down a lot faster than they expected.
I still want a Volt though.
+7
Mar 15th, 2010 (9:08 am)After driving the Volt on Saturday, a very very high BEV electric range issue, for me, is somewhat offset by the exquisite sensation of a totally electric drive, completely quiet acceleration, and the very highest of quality that I experienced in the Volt on Saturday.
I really think that the sensation of electric driving will somewhat offset concerns for extremely high electric ranges (above 150 true ER miles), without question. I think once you yourselves drive a Volt you will know GM is **most certainly** on the right track with BEV’s as well.
Trading a very high ER for a little adaptation (to buy something in a city ninety miles away when you can easily get the same thing more closely), is what might be a trade off for the next few years of designs, it seems to me.
The oil companies are not going to have charging stations installed at their locations because of two things:
Gasoline is the antithesis of BEV, (as well as Voltec), so, why would you want to hang around all these vehicles getting all that gasoline pumped into their tanks. (Plus, you might start to get sick if you were downwind of the fumes, if not just merely the sight of it all.)
If you are going to go somewhere to get some electricity for your BEV, it likely will be a place where the consumer is going to need to stay there for about an hour or two;
A mall perhaps, a movie theater, a relative’s house, an amusement park, a baseball park, a football stadium, and on and on.
BEV is the right thing for retirees. If they want to go out of town, they’d just rent an ICE.
Being provided this generous privilege on Saturday, March 13th, to drive a Volt has made some of these marketing considerations clear for me, and, now I know that Voltec also had made all these marketing considerations very crystal-clear for GM as well.
Mar 15th, 2010 (9:12 am)Just a short edit of my above post, when you write so much, the edit feature makes it impossible to correct mistakes.
In the sentence: “do a Google search, or watch some YouTube of U.S. Defense Secretarys decrying how we must secure Iraq’s oil ( 4th largest importer to USA ) and protect it from Iran. ” SUBSTITUTE the word “decrying” with PROCLAIMING.
Sorry. James
RECHARGE!
IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME
+3
Mar 15th, 2010 (9:15 am)I love this idea. McDonald’s could even start with one parking spot which has the charger. It could be right beside the handicapped spaces. A big sign could say, “Reserved for plug-in vehicles only”. As demand increases, more spaces could come online. The only downfall would be the ICErs taking up the spot. Cool idea!
-6
Mar 15th, 2010 (9:18 am)If you’ve build an extended range vehicle, you’ve also built a battery-only car as well.
but in terms of design packaging, it’s better to know at the outset what kind of drivetrain
you’ll be using. When GM finally buys/manufacturers in-wheel electric motors, they will
be on the right track – those devices allow complete control over each individual driving wheel (can be two or four) and make traction control and active suspension type systems mostly a matter of software, and very effective (right now traction control involves braking) They also allow the removal of all drivetrain components (motor, tranny, driveshafts, etc.) from the interior.
Until this happens, GM will badly trail the best EVs out there or on the drawing board. I’m surprised that in the past several years, we have heard nothing from any of the GM EV engineeers about inwheel motors.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (9:25 am)One note, GM has been stating that the Volt will have >200 cells in the battery pack, but in the Lauckner interview, he states 250 to 300 cells. This seems to confirm the 288 cells that was given in an earlier GM presentation.
Trucks and SUV’s have been GM’s bread and butter for years. I don’t expect that to change. However, they must have a more diversified offering (quality small cars as well as big vehicles) to survive.
I’ve stated this before, but I expect to see the low cost BAS+ offered in small to mid-size vehicles as an option to reduce fuel consumption by 15 to 20% (engine shutoff @ coastdown and stop, some electric boost).
I have a feeling that the 2-mode will likely only be offered with a plug-in. Since these are designed for the range of full size cars up to trucks, small battery packs only provide minimal boost and regen capability. With a 1/2 sized Volt pack (like the plug-in Vue), up to 55 kW of power or regen can be used. The Vue could go up to 40 mph on electric only.
Note, this pack uses the same cells at the Volt. We are also seeing this offered in the recent Cadillac XTS concept. This gives close to 400 hp and 400 lb-ft of torque available with the combined ICE and electric motors, yet I estimate mileage could be 50+ mpg (typical annual driving cycle). I see no reason this same system couldn’t be applied to trucks and SUV’s.
For pure BEV’s to be considered, it tells me that GM is learning a great deal from their battery testing. With a pure BEV, you may not need to guarantee 10 years/150,000 miles for the battery pack. It is likely that it wouldn’t see as many miles either. So by designing a larger pack with more capability, this could be acceptable.
For example, let’s increase the Volt’s battery pack by 50% to 24 kWh. If testing shows new chemistries can use 75% of the pack’s capacity with only air cooling, this equates to a simple design that gets a 90 mile range at 200 Wh/mile.
So there we have it, a diversified offering of fuel efficient cars and trucks from small BEV’s to plug-in SUV’s that have V6 engines, yet 400 available horsepower.
Mar 15th, 2010 (9:46 am)BillR,
Sounds like the Leaf pack doesn’t it?
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (9:46 am)The latest thing that I saw on this claimed 220 cells in the Volt pack. Don’t know how to verify it though. I suspect that the GM architecture is highly flexible and the number of cells is probably able to be “dialed in” on each battery pack so that the hardware/firmware/software can adjust with minimal effort. Remember that soon GM expects to switch to a dry cell chemistry (not that I know what that means).
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (9:50 am)I believe McDonalds is already installing chargers in Europe.
I would like to add Jack in the Box.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (9:50 am)Is this GM’s subtle way of saying that Carlos Gosn is full of something? (that yes he DOES have competition).
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (9:56 am)Pink tie! Drink!
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:05 am)What you said. I’m not seeing a huge market for pure EVs. Cost on the production side may be an issue. At the end of the day it’s all about cost and capability, and those costs do not have to be related to technology. It may be that CARB kills off EREV with its misguided notions about battery warranties.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:07 am)I could definitely see how GM wants to expand to BEV, given the incredible way the Volt drives.
+4
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:08 am)I hope GM really strongly stresses the advantages of the Volt’s EREV design over the BEV and its limited range for the near term. After the Volt is a smashing success on the order of the Prius, then start worrying about the BEV design. It’s more important to be the leader, then you are dealing from strength with your new models. And it will be a while before a BEV would be a better choice for most people than an EREV unless you are rich enough to buy one of each.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:12 am)They could also be learning some unpleasant things about the gen set.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:14 am)It would be great if you could expand on this. I know you posted on Saturday (I was otherwise occupied yesterday so I didn’t get to check) but more personal experience would be fun to hear about.
+3
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:17 am)I really doubt that there are any concerns about the genset. Don’t forget that it will not be running for extended runtimes like an ICE as far as longevity is concerned. Likely only 20 percent duty cycle if that. One must be careful, however, to use a Top Tier gas like Shell 87 and not some falsely-cheaper non-top-tier no-name fuel.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:19 am)Bob is wearing a tie clip that looks like the same style worn by Marines. Probably has something to do with it. Some men prefer clips like that to tie tacks that poke holes into the material. I have worn both kind. Whatever he wears is OK with me. The man is ACES in my book. Maximum Bob! What else can you say?
+3
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:27 am)I wouldn’t worry about the press releases at this point. It is easier to tell by looking at what is happening on the ground.
Lordstown (where the Cruze will be built) is having a bit of a upside down month right now, they just had a week down for some supplier issues (well, sending the proper parts the factory needs to the dealers to handle the recalls), and for TRAINING on the Cruze.
The last piece of the puzzle on when the Cruze will be ready is the transmission. The Cruze utilizes a 6 speed transmission, and that will be built in Toledo. Workers get callbacks starting in April, and production is supposed to be running sometime in June.
There is a down week in April to align the inventories of the Cobalt, and the build out of the old Chevy is June 24th, then Lordstown goes into summer shutdown on June 28th, and workers are back July 12th. If it is like the Cobalt, they will need a week to two weeks to make the tooling changes, etc. Not a big deal.
Just given the way things work, timelines and all…GM’s “third quarter” is very much not July, lol. They would be extremely lucky to get product out in August, but I would wager mid-late September is a reasonable expectation, but there will also be some scarcity.
/hope that is what you are looking for
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:29 am)Thanks DonC,
But I was concerned about upstaging the previously threaded contests and all the hard (intellectual) works that were being posted and voted on.
As comments and questions come in as time goes by, I can relate both my individual experience more closely to whichever subject anyone wishes to discuss, and, also, what I would think might be a strong consumer advantage to what GM is doing.
While the drive in the Volt only took about fifteen minutes, that experience locked into many different preexisting sensational categories according to what I have experienced down through the last 4 decades of always questioning “why” anything works the way it does.
(This was an extremely good investment by GM if I may say so.)
I still want to be careful about not upstaging any other great opinions or really good ideas.
Everyone elses gifted participations here really do matter tremendously, not just mine.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:30 am)My .02:
If Gm continues to believe that they don’t need significant independent field testing data for the Volt, then they need to focus on getting the Volt out. Spot-on perfect, as “affordable” as possible, and on schedule. Period.
Future product line decisions will be determined by whether the Volt fails, OR is spectacularly successful. Somehow I just don’t think that the Volt will receive a mediocre market response.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:31 am)A free charge for you and a transformer for the kids with every combo. They’ve been looking forever for a way to get you as attached to the stores as the kids are.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:32 am)Its all about battery tech. Should GM be able to simply extend its charge range to 5%-95% (always guaranteeing 10 year life) presents ‘pure’ EV possibilities. Then aside from any possible game-changing Li-ion electrode/electrolyte development; there’s GM’s fuel cell, a 2015 forecast. I guess world-wide 100 fuel cell patents monthly. GM’s FC program now 40+ years and counting employs 600. Daimler has 200 FC employed plus all its partnerships. In the past month I’d say half of fuel cell related U.S. patents issued are Asian assigned. For all the dissing of hydrogen distribution, make no mistake. The fuel cell marches on – glacially but assuredly.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:42 am)How does touting your advantages and downplaying other technology make anyone a leader? Seems like that strategy is more likely to result in being “leapfrogged” IMO. There was a saying long ago that actions speak louder than words. Putting out the best product in the category and showng customers how it benefits them is the way to be the leader, am I wrong?
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:42 am)I always though and wondered why GM didn’t do it, that the Saturn brand would have been the perfect choice to introduce the hybrid and electric concepts and that when they were introduced, that they should simply be contained in one brand and then filtered to the other brands. I thought that was the reason for having multiple brands, to introduce different concepts for specific markets, which the car companies lost sight of and one reason that they fell so far.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:47 am)From then on the fuel will meet you there, rather than making a seperate trip to a gas station.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:52 am)The drive was so profoundly silent and powerfully-refined, to many, it would be considered a mystical experience. While the more you know about how things work the less mystical it all is, still, this does not reduce the profundity of the experience.
GM knows this so very well by now. The BEV is certainly the next extension of this mystical experience, and, GM is certainly going to make BEVs work, and work very well.
(When NewGM stock becomes available, look for a rush to place “calls” on it with complete confidence.)
+3
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:55 am)George (#45):
I also thought Saturn would be a good place for GM to introduce an electric vehicle line. But doesn’t look as though that will happen. I am not sure just what GM’s plans are even after reading some of the comments by GM employees and insiders. I think they are unsure as to how to proceed. If they wait too long, Nissan and Ford will be entrenched in the BEV market and mindset of the public. Personally, I think GM should introduce a BEV for fall 2011. Time is not on their side. Events are starting to happen and many companies are getting into the BEV model.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (10:59 am)Dan Petit (#47):
Must have been a great experience. I envy your drive very much. But, I am happy for you. Same for anyone else lucky enough for even the “short” drives GM is offering now. I hope they let Lyle keep one for a few days so we can get some real good information on his experience.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (11:00 am)Because they haven’t worked as well as inboard motors. Hub motors are the popular science ahh I wish I’d thought of that idea for the last 40 years. But it will take a lot more development money to make them competitive. EV’s already eliminate the transmission and FMVSS requires friction brakes and redundant systems. Though I’ve read about progress being made on brakes located inboard to seperate them from motors and reduce unsprung weight.
Mar 15th, 2010 (11:03 am)National geo special onthe Volt (not new, but pretty good start
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/electric-car-in-the-making/26kz07d4
+3
Mar 15th, 2010 (11:21 am)When I first stopped by to make sure that the Volt was going to be there on Saturday, after I had introduced myself, I asked permission to go look at it more closely.
No picture or video does the Volt any justice. This is the severe limitation of the internet as well as TV advertising. Volt is far more luxurious than one can gather in video.
Let me compare an impression I had previously to a Lexus that I had helped a customer buy (negotiating $12,500 off the $91,000 price).
Driving the Lexus, I was always very highly skeptical about what I consider excessive “gimmicky” technologies that would cost the owner thousands upon each visit for repairs. (I was right.) (I had insisted upon that 100,000 mile “bumper to bumper” warranty which saved them over $5,000 as I remember).
The technical impression that I have with the Volt is solid and basics-luxury. Solidly-basic vehicles are what I buy. Solidly-basic-luxury vehicles are what America wants. But the Volt is a solidly-basic vehicle that has this luxury of this mystically-incredible ride. That is the best luxury in itself. Nothing I’ve ever experienced compares to this luxury. Peaceful motoring and quietly-refined power.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (11:22 am)One thing I’d like to see in a few years once thes electric cars are available is to have the option of having an ICE (or fuel cell or whatever kind of range extender) as a drop-in option much like a sunroof or premium sound system is today.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (11:23 am)Not for the first time, if GM would offer a BEV the size of a Spark, with enough range for my 50 mile round trip commute, I would be really interested. It would take care of 90% of my driving. I could just leave my pickup at work for any erand running during the day.
I have been a Volt devotee because I long for GM to “leapfrog” Toyota, et al. But a BEV appeals more and more to my KISS, simplicate and add lightness, and what ain’t there don’t give you no trouble instincts. Not to mention my get off of imported oil instincts.
Plus, a car as nice as the Volt is a bit much for business errand running, mostly hauling car parts and/or shop equipment. As you know, I’m very much from the CaptJackSparrow school re “stripper” cars.
In case you hadn’t noticed, I haven’t been a big Bob Lutz fan. But I sure hope he’s right this time.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (11:25 am)#52
Too bloody right! +1
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (11:35 am)I totally agree. As the radius of electric range increases, wouldn’t the demand for charging locations tend to decrease? In other words, if, according to GM 40 miles covers 78% of most peoples commutes, then would 150 mile range cover 95%? And if so, will anyone invest a lot of money to serve 5% of peoples needs installing charging stations? And the few that may crop up, will it be the equivalent of standing in line to get gas?
+3
Mar 15th, 2010 (11:56 am)We, at this time, still don’t know what kind of gas mileage the Volt will get in the ICE mode. If it gets lousy gas mileage, that would cause the Volt to be just a short term solution. If it gets great gas mileage, then that would do a number on the EV’s.
I would never buy a pure electric car unless it can be recharge taking about the same time….or close to an ICE
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (12:07 pm)#48 N Riley If they wait too
long, Nissan and Ford will be entrenched in the BEV market and mindset of the public. Personally, I think GM should introduce a BEV for fall 2011. Time
is not on their side. Events are starting to happen and many companies are getting into the BEV model.
(Quote)
I totally agree, bevs can meet the needs of a lot of customers on this planet asap. As Dan Petit pointed out, that electric drive can be very enjoyable, so why not have your choices?
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (12:07 pm)-9
Mar 15th, 2010 (12:15 pm)yada, yada, yada, Stop talking and get it in the showroom. With GM’s track record, ………….
When the ideas start rolling out the showroad door with GQ public OWNING them I’ll believe. Till then, I’m hopful, but skeptical. They have been ‘selling the volt for almost 5 years. They where suppost to be in peoples hands by mid to late 2009. I still have not heard of the first one actually being sold. Now it’s ‘going on sale’ —-late—-2010 . What? Like December 25th? Or Sept.? All these other ideas are also just so much fluff till they are available. Gm has a lot to answer for. Lost jobs. (shipped abroad), Americas distrust of diesel? They need to look in the mirror. Nobody will EVER forgive them for thier disaster with diesel cars. Now we make GREAT diesel cars but ship them to Europe… thanks a lot…jerks. The EV1? Well, had the GP ever gotten their hands on the NiMH powered ones, Each and every owner would have become a thief before letting GM take them back. So they have a lot to answer for. Not that a durable, economical, reliable Volt won’t do the trick, but……GET ON WITH IT ALREADY!!!!!!!!!
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (12:21 pm)While I’m not familiar with the Lexus’s features in particular, in my experience, one person’s “gimmicky” technology can be another person’s life-changing time saver. And you never know which feature will really catch on.
When I first heard of texting, I thought it was gimmicky. But it really can come in handy sometimes.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (12:30 pm)There will certainly be a market for both types of EV’s. City dwellers will love the Zero Emissions of a pure EV. We suburbanites will love having the ability to drive at Zero Emissions, but have the capabilities of using the range extender if needed. I’m not certain about you country folk or those with long commutes. A pure EV is probably impractical, but an EREV? Sounds good on the surface but we’d need more market info for sure.
What would be the sales plan for customers who already own Jimmies or Silverado trucks? Using EREV Technology makes sense to me, but 100% EV seems silly.
Invest the money into the research and technology, make it all affordable and the market will be there!!
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (12:44 pm)I think it’s great that GM and other automakers have given us drivers the CHOICE to electrify our vehicles as much as we want to and can afford to. For a lot of people, hybrids, EREVs, and pure electrics will be sweet revenge on the fat cat oil sheiks, Wall Street oil market schemers, and Big Oil refiners if they try to screw people over at the pump again like they did in 2008. You know they are going to be doing it again soon … it’s just a matter of time.
It’ll be a pure consumer thrill kind of thing … like finally seeing serious competition come for a product category that you KNOW has been overpriced for years and years. Like being able to buy a generic prescription drug for $4 at Wal Mart that you used to have to pay a $30 co-pay for and probably cost the health insurance system $150+. They end up charging you more for those new, high priced drugs with higher health insurance premiums later on you know.
If you see those gas prices going over $4 a gallon again … it’s trade in time! No brainer. Buy as much battery for your new vehicle as you can afford. Hopefully, the upcoming hybrids, EREVs, and pure electrics are just as good performance wise, style wise, and everything else. The only difference will be that you “fill er up” with electrons instead of gasoline. Then you can laugh at all the people paying an arm and a leg for gas as you drive past gas stations on your way to work.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (12:45 pm)So I had an idea for the contest and decided to do a continuation of an earlier post. Since we all could use a LOL on Monday, I hope you enjoy it.
WHY I WANT A CHEVY VOLT
On Star date: 09-01-2010
CAPTAIN KIRK “Scotty, I need the Volt’s CS mode working so we can get to Earth before the Nissans do.”
SCOTTY “Captain, I need until November first or the batteries could crap out on us.”
CAPTAIN KIRK “Bones, go down there and give Scotty a hand.”
DR. McCOY “Captain, I’m just a country doctor, not an electrical engineer!”
CAPTAIN KIRK “Yes, but maybe you could tell him when the engine feels right.”
SCOTTY “Captain, with all due respect Sir, I can get the engines working faster if you let me tweek them myself.”
On Star date: 10-01-2010
SCOTTY “Captain, Sir the CS mode is working perfectly now.”
CAPTAIN KIRK “Scotty, you’re a miracle worker, now let’s get to Earth and save Mankind.”
CAPTAIN KIRK ” Lieutenant Uhura, contact On Star and tell them Volt is on our way to Earth to save Mankind from it’s over use of hydrocarbons.”
CAPTAIN KIRK ” Mr. Sulu, patch into On Star and plot the most efficient coarse to Earth.”
MR. SPOCK ” Captain, I am picking up a strange vehicle in our rear monitor, I think it’s the Nissans.” ”
CAPTAIN KIRK “Let’s have a look on the main monitor.”
DR. MCCOY ” What the devil is that?”
SCOTTY ” Mr. Spock, If I didn’t know better, I’d say that vehicle looks like your daddy.”
CAPTAIN KIRK “Scotty, prepare to go to sport mode. Can we outrun them if we need too? ”
SCOTTY “Aye Captain, we have a higher velocity capability and will be able to go farther as well, but I think their batteries will overheat if they try to keep up with the Volt.”
80 miles later
MR. SPOCK “Captain, the Nissan’s vehicle has used up all of it’s battery power.”
CAPTAIN KIRK “It’s a great time on Earth, knowing that the Volt won’t leave you stuck out in space!”
The Beginning
Mar 15th, 2010 (12:51 pm)See slide 15 in this presentation. It shows 288 cells in the Volt’s battery pack.
http://www.narucmeetings.org/Presentations/Stanek%20PHEV_Nov08%20-%20final90.pdf
Since we know the battery pack is 365 volts, I guessed that there are 3 separate circuits in the battery pack for 96*3.75 = 360 volts.
http://archives.media.gm.com/volt/eflex/docs/battery_102.pdf
http://www.compactpower.com/lithium.shtml
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (12:56 pm)JohnK,
Just as a follow on to my post #65, if you look at the plug-in battery (used on the Saturn Vue), it is a 1/2 sized Volt battery pack.
Using 3.75 volts per cell, and 144 cells total, you get two separate circuits at 72 cells each or 270 volts each. These numbers seem to agree with the GM data.
Mar 15th, 2010 (1:05 pm)As for the inboard brakes ,It’s been done for 20 yrs now. Look at a U.S. Army HMMWV
Mar 15th, 2010 (1:19 pm)I could go into more detail, but a car that supposedly “parks itself”, yet causes these same customers an increase in insurance premiums after it causes an accident, because it “does not work” would be one on that Lexus.
Plus, I really think we are going to see a lot more problems with Toyota technologies in the coming years, based on what I am currently seeing in the service bays right now.
And, “life saving” technologies are not exactly what Toyota is known for currently. I believe that it’s going to get a lot worse for them, quite sadly. I hope they become aggressively proactive with their recall campaigns in all this to avoid more loss of life.
Mar 15th, 2010 (1:32 pm)I logged in to GM DealerWorld and tried to configure a 2011 Cruze and then save it. (just so I could give you guys an idea of pricing…) It comes back with “No Data Available” right now. It shows the models available: LS – 2LS – LT – LTZ… but no info on allocation and pricing.
It shouldn’t be too much longer if they are going for an August or September launch.
Mar 15th, 2010 (1:33 pm)Proof for #67 Hmmwv brakes are next to the differential not by the wheel hub.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3501/3273791499_b9bbc433e5_o.jpg
Mar 15th, 2010 (1:35 pm)Is your icon a 1978 or a 1979 Corvette? I owned a ’77, a ’79, and a 1980, one after the other, and enjoyed them a lot. (Had to let the 1980 go to invest in business).
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (1:37 pm)#11 Zipdrive,
I too own a FWD Caddy, and look forward to the XTS PHEV. It will have the new, much lighter, second generation 2 mode, mated to a DI V6, with lots more power than my current STS North star V8. That North star, is more than sufficient for any real luxury drivers need, with plenty of effortless power.
Using the 2 mode hybrid drive, as a HEV, designed specifically for cars and not heavy trucks, I think there will be much improved mileage. Without a PHEV, I would think it would easily average around 30+ mpg, instead of 20+. Then the PHEV option will near double the mileage, once more, if the battery has a substantial AER.
The architecture of a parallel series design, cannot be as efficient as a Series design. This is confirmed by no less than Dr. Frank the “Father of the Hybrid”, at UC Davis. But if the largest cars achieve that mileage, and EREVs achieve triple digit mileage, the US dependence of fossil fuel is reduced to the point that it doesn’t matter, any more.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (1:43 pm)Great to hear the ALL-ELECTRICS are coming. I think GM is finally waking up to reality. Everyone at GM now realizes that the Volt is a temporary vehicle on the way to the permanent Electric Only vehicles that everyone really wants. I still hope for some cheap rapid storage energy device that will be created using nano technologies combined with new chemistry that will make the Volt obsolete overnight. That is what most people really want. The Volt is a nice step in the right direction but I sure wouldn’t look forward to all that maintenance required to keep that hybrid with two power systems going strong, yikes.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (1:51 pm)One measure and indicator regarding maintenance and warranty liability cost structures is the cost of the extended warranty on the Volt.
In one conversation I had two months ago with a sales rep, the Volt is expected (according to him) to have an extended warranty price of around $1200, not the usual $2000 or so. This suggests a very low cost of ownership, but, I would still definitely get that extended warranty “bumper to bumper” no matter what.
Also, I really think GM will always have EREV. Just expanding it directly to other lines depending on consumer choice in future years.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (2:00 pm)Well, if it doesn’t work, that’s obviously a different story. But innovation and added features, in and of themselves, are not a problem. Car companies need to innovate in order to gain competitive advantages. That’s how it’s supposed to work. Things like windshield wipers defrosters, and power windows were probably all considered useful gimmics at one point.
By the way, Ford came out with a self parking car. And from all reports, it works much better than the Lexus version.
In all fairness to Toyota, they’ve been pretty proactive already. They recalled 9 million cars. And halted production. Of course, the US government (among others) made them do it. But still. I’m not sure how much more proactive they could possibly be.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (2:17 pm)much talk / testing has been about the all electric mode in-house. then there has been lots of comparisons media wise to the leaf and volt. and most engineers love to push their own desires. so i wonder if instead of hearing inpleasant genset words, they are hearing lots of people saying the all electric mode can be slightly modified and put into a smaller car and bang, you have something inside of a 2 years for a new BEV. the research for the numbers to show a BEV is technically capable is done with the volt research.
the volt genset is for range anxiety people. the talk of BEV i bet is coming from momentum in the market with electric vehicles and almost every manufacturer joining that momentum and volt electric mode experience. GM should and could easily say…”we have one of those too”.
Mar 15th, 2010 (2:24 pm)The problems, Laura, are that Toyota was forced to be proactive on the problems that were discoverable via deaths.
How about problems that are bankrupting that Toyota does not initiate recalls with? These have been described here by me in previous threads. I do not give Toyota
**any**
credit for recalls that they are forced to do with regard to 51 deaths.
At least Honda sends you postcard after postcard offering to check you battery for free (because it can cause the Automatic Transmission to mis-shift, possibly causing the owner to seek a transmission overhaul that he/she does not need. Honda is very excellent with all this.)
So, no, I am not at all impressed with the ways Toyota does business. I could inappropriately fill this thread off-topic with their cost cutting shortcomings that are now costing their owners thousands of dollars.
Even putting aside all these deaths, Toyota is
**not**
cost competitive when they pose such extreme repair costs risks as I see every day, for even Toyota’s with only 60,000 miles on them!
They are certainly not what they used to be.
Mar 15th, 2010 (2:33 pm)Dan Petit, you lucky *&%#@*&,
Are you in this group?
http://chevrolet.posterous.com/local-ev-enthusiasts-from-austinev-drive-the
-1
Mar 15th, 2010 (2:33 pm)+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (2:43 pm)Yes, Bill R,
That is me in picture number 2 of 9, in my white uniform shirt. For me, the drive meant proof of the philosophical switch over to electric motoring and many many good things to come for us and the rest of America.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (2:51 pm)Dan,
Didn’t get the chance to say it, but congratulations on your test drive, and thanks for all of your feedback.
We appreciate it!! (Even though we’re a bit jealous).
Mar 15th, 2010 (2:59 pm)Hmm, my post from 15-20 minutes ago seems to have not made it in (too many edits?), yes I did a browser refresh.
So the short version this time — Dan, any noticeable torque steer under hard acceleration?
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (2:59 pm)I always thought that a BEV would be a perfect car for our second vehicle. Good to see that GM ‘gets it’ and is going down that road.
- No, I don’t need 150+ miles range. 100 is 10x more than I need.
- No, I don’t need fast charge infrastructure.
- No, I don’t need charging at work (but it would be nice).
For many thousands of us, a BEV-100 would be good enough.
(I still won’t buy an ugly Leaf though.)
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (3:08 pm)As far as GM trailing other companies’ EV’s with in-wheel motors which are either “out there or on the drawing board,” I’ve only heard of two companies with R & D programs to develop this type of in-wheel configuration: Volvo (with their C30 Recharge EREV), and Audi’s pure EV sportscar (and Volvo seems to be in limbo). Volvo believes that such a design would improve their EREV’s efficiency by 15%.
Maybe there are more concept cars out there with this kind of a design, and certainly I would love to know if the GM design engineers are considering this type of configuration for their later generation Volts. However, had GM attempted this kind of bold new technology for the Gen 1 Volt, it would have delayed the upcoming November 2010 launch by a few years at least–to say 2014 or 2015. GM did a damm good job considering the tight time frame and other circumstances it was working under.
Sincerely…George, Sudbury, Canada…Go Volt!!
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (3:12 pm)Hey James,
The best thing to remember is that we all do not have the same transportation needs.
I don’t work for GM (although someday I’d love to do some technical curriculum contracting for GM), but, we must keep in mind that there are most certainly now, clearer, more definite, and solidly-concrete distinctions EV-wise between what various consumers want, need, and what they ultimately will *actually* use.
If there are lots and lots of consumers who never drive more than one hundred total miles in a day (to recharge a BEV overnight at 240 volts), is it worth the marketing investigation to see if that is really true? I mean ***REALLY*** TRUE? If so, then what exactly are those numbers? This is what marketing departments do. And, their job is to never be wrong (or they get fired).
I think this is where your concerns were going.
Up to the point where I test drove the Volt on Saturday, I was not overly impressed with the idea of BEV without a genset. However, I have changed my position in light of this test drive, because I do believe that people who would be well served with a BEV, may even be discouraged from buying one if the ER did not strictly fit their needs.
At a point where their needs changed, or, they misjudged, my position has changed because the BEV will hold nearly all of its value, and thus, ought not to become a purchasing risk to the BEV buyer who might then desire to resell it.
This is because of the driving experience itself of the perfect quiet and refined power in electric propulsion mode. I’m 100 percent convinced BEV poses little or no risk of ownership if the BEV owner wished to resell, and recover most of the cost for a gently-driven and properly-recharged-all-the-time BEV.
+3
Mar 15th, 2010 (3:16 pm)Plans Plans and more Plans – again restructuring , retirement, new pay packages – again Plans, plans plans. news and more news ( 2 mode on buick , not on buick, converj green light, yellow light and then redlight, )
Where is products ? a hybrid equinox, a hybrid traverse/enclave , a hybrid malibu (not the old one – even a DI malibu is not there where 2011 sonata has a DI engine which gets 35 mpg ) Even a reborn EV1 or a full Volt ,BAS+Cruze ( even cruze is running all world except NA ). Hybrid lot times sounds like 35% sales but its actually less than 5% sales but if there are no products and numbers, what is there to attract people -plans ??
Mar 15th, 2010 (3:19 pm)Roger333,
The Volt is perfection. If there was anything less than perfect, I’d have noticed.
The Volt is perfected. No other vehicle I’ve driven has this level of perfection in all systems.
It went straight as a perfect line could, and no effort on the steering whatsoever was needed to drive it. There just needs to be some time left available for needed long term testing of a few things.
Mar 15th, 2010 (3:34 pm)Thank you BillR,
I mentioned last year sometime, that with only one single drive of the Volt, and, it would be
“all over”, meaning, I could go on and on without needing a further driving opportunity in comparing all the excellent attributes of it technologically. (Which, of course, if you want more info on my impressions, just ask about the specifics).
Mar 15th, 2010 (3:35 pm)I’m working on fixing up my 1979 into a nice daily driver. Full restoration not cost effective in this economy. Just something to ‘Cruze’ around in.
Mar 15th, 2010 (3:51 pm)
Mar 15th, 2010 (3:59 pm)Your comment reminds me that I have never been a fan of GM’s model codes assigned to Cheverolet vehicles (cars and trucks). Too many option levels for one thing. Why not just three levels – LS, LT and LTZ? Not that I am fond of those codes. Maybe GM just doesn’t want to use LX. SX or EX like other manufacturers. The way they are used now and assigned makes the Chevy line confusing. You can’t look at them and see which is the higher value line. Maybe I am just ignoring some sensible bit of data here that I am not seeing. I suppose we can be prepared for Chevy to use the same assignments with the Volt levels of value. Chevrolet Volt LS, 2LS and so on. Lets hope not. Come on, GM. Use some sensible value level identifiers. IMO.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (4:00 pm)There are two things (at least) which will keep Voltec sales high, which I haven’t heard in any of the recent GM statements:
1) Cold weather EV performance. Just before the main topic here turned to GM Volt supporters leaving GM, we had an excellent report for the Volt’s performance in extremely cold weather. I still think that a BEV will be at a distinct disadvantage in cold climates with no reliable source of on-board heat.
2) Performance, period. Just go back and read Dan Petit’s Volt-driving accounts. Even if GM is right about the public’s acceptance of BEV’s, Voltec has a long future ahead of it as an affordable EV performance drive train.
That said, I believe GM is wrong to pursue 2-mode which is not plug-in; it has always been too costly for too little benefit. Offering it as an option will doom it to low numbers. The Cadillac concept (unique body, PHEV only) is the way to proceed in the near term. It is likely that Plug-in 2-mode will be scalable to trucks before Voltec, and I was glad to hear Mr. Lutz’s truck comments (I hope he is correct).
I also believe that if GM’s BEV turns out to be a late “Me Too” model to get into the BEV100 derby, things will will end badly. GM has a unique position with the Volt. It’s BEV offering ought to be unique as well (and they should wait until it can be before releasing so much as a show car).
I cannot help but wonder how much of this stated priority has to do with the “Range Anxiety is Overblown” study. I would point out to GM and everyone here that current EV owners do not reflect buyers at large; they are the equivalent of barnstormers. Things that barnstormers will accept differ markedly from what the majority of car buyers demand. When was the last time you saw the stewardess walking on the wings of a jetliner?
Mar 15th, 2010 (4:11 pm)Well, looks as though you had the “Volt Smile” on your face as you exited the vehicle. Great experience, I bet.
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (4:13 pm)I agree with all you said, except about the Leaf. I kinda like its looks. Just goes to prove ….
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (4:15 pm)I do not believe this is likely if only for the fact that such charging requires access to an EV’s native pack voltage. So far as I know, no work of any kind has been done to establish a standard for such access; this would be a big prerequisite, IMHO. Until we hear about the development of an industry-wide native-voltage access standard, I don’t think GM will have any plans for fast-charging.
I’m afraid I can’t support this idea at all. To try and duplicate the ‘pump paradigm’ created for such a completely different technology is at best foolish. EVs have their own strengths, it will prove better and cheaper overall to play towards them. I think it’s likelier that we’ll see an increase in public 220V charging at places where cars spend a long time parked anyway. As for long-distance travel in a BEV, forget it for now. It’s coming, but not soon.
I agree that the GM BEV had better be the one on the market which can guarantee a 100+ mile range — even if it means a bigger battery. For this reason alone, it should probably wait for costs/technology.
In short, No Plug/No Extended Range, No Sale.
EDIT PS: Congratulations on winning a spot. We look forward to hearing about your test drive!
Mar 15th, 2010 (4:16 pm)Hey, wow! Sounds like a perfect setup for a second coming of old fashioned drive-ups. Carhops on rollerskates, anybody?
Mar 15th, 2010 (4:22 pm)Congrats to you and the Austin EV club. Seems like all you guys had a red letter day.
I haven’t had the opportunity to drive a Volt but I have been able to sit in one. Compared to what I am used to, the Volt was a little cramped in the shoulders and had something of a front-to-back tunnel feel to me. That’s not a deal breaker or anything but I didn’t think the interior approached what you’d find in a Lexus GS much less an LS.
Mar 15th, 2010 (4:25 pm)Definitely the “Volt Smile”. Lots of things to talk about just from those fifteen minutes of Volt fame. If only everyone here could have driven it.
Mar 15th, 2010 (4:43 pm)OK
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (4:50 pm)C.A.R.B. requirements are looming for GM.
GM, and all companies are striving to meet those government regulations any way possible. Remember the EV-1′s production was only spurred by California’s C.A.F.E. laws. Once that pressure eased, so the EV-1 went into the annals of “what could’ve been”.
BEVs have a market. A very small market comparative to others. People buy SUVs because of what they can do, not necessarily what owners will do with them. Camaro and Corvette owners buy because of what those cars are able to do, but you won’t see many driving 0-60 in 4 seconds or travelling 170-204 (ZR-1) very much at all, or they would not own a license to drive very long, or would be in prison for vehicular manslaughter. They buy Camaros and 4×4 Equinoxes for what they are capable of.
Volt is no different. It’s capable of traveling as far as a gas car ” ELECTRIC CAR PLUS”. Better to end up in the garage at night with charge to spare, than out on I-95 waiting for a tow truck!!!! People will not buy electrics because they are not capable of doing what conventional cars can. The price of batteries needs to come down – alot. Corporations will need to phase in extended range vehicles and BEVs slowly as costs come down and capability goes up. People in large numbers will “get it” when the EREV option does not carry a large penalty in the pocketbook.
Optimistically 2 mode hybrids and BEVs will help GM get over the C.A.R.B. mileage requirement hump for sure – and a 200mpg EPA score from VOLT will surely leverage GM over Ford, Toyota and Chrysler for the short term in regards to meeting government mandates.
I’m with Zach – Prioritize the plug!
SO GM – BUILD VOLTS IN NUMBERS that give it a chance to do what Prius did. To win over the public to the point it makes big profits. Dribbling out Volts like Willy Wonka golden candy wrappers is NOT best for anybody.
BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME
RECHARGE! James
Mar 15th, 2010 (4:54 pm)Sigh, I suppose you may be right, from a purely logical point of view. We are retired, but the fact is that we are addicted to having our own things in our own car; puzzle books and gum, tools and wraps, mugs and maps; all in their accustomed places and all ready to go whenever we take a notion. No, we want a car who is our friend, who knows us and knows how to serve us. I know, it’s terribly anthropomorphic, but it happens to be true. The only electric car I see on the immediate horizon that fills all of our needs is the Volt.
Mar 15th, 2010 (5:12 pm)Hey DonC,
I’ve been in those cars you mentioned. It may be that there is an interior difference, but I am only thinking of between two to three inches max extra, relevant to either your drivers side left shoulder or the passenger side right shoulder. However, I am very broad-shouldered myself, as you might gather from the picture. I was perfectly comfortable in the Volt when I drove it. Were you able to shut the door and sit straight ahead when you were able to sit down in it?
Mar 15th, 2010 (5:20 pm)Thanks guys. I was looking for tangible info and you both provided some. I have to believe the Cruze will be out this year and would be very surprised if it didn’t make by the end of the 3rd quarter but they’ve got to get it EPA rated, priced, advertised, etc. Those things need to start ramping soon or it’s not going to happen.
Mar 15th, 2010 (6:18 pm)+1 My feelings exactly. Love to see a World Class replacement for my ’99 Deville.
Mar 15th, 2010 (6:25 pm)In other news … it’s good to see that GE is getting into the “smart charging station” business. They will have their first models for sale in just a month or two. GE’s smart charging stations will be integrated into their smart grid systems.
No doubt about it … the electric car revolution is coming on strong now. To use a surfer’s analogy … there’s a huge swell of waves stirring up. I’m sure that GM and Ford want to be experts at riding the new technology waves that are coming. I’m sure we are going to see a lot of mind boggling new stuff coming in the next 10 years. Like NFL receiver T.O. would say … “get yer popcorn ready”.
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/24764/
“For example, car owners could specify what time their car needed to be charged by and the highest price they were willing to pay for electricity. Some people will prefer to have the car charged immediately, and so would be willing to pay whatever the price happens to be. But others might be more concerned with keeping costs down, or even in promoting the use of renewable energy, says Luke Clemente, GE Energy’s general manager for smart grid. These people could program the charger to recharge the car when the price for electricity is very low–that is, at times when utilities have excess capacity. Once there are large numbers of smart chargers in use, this would create an instant market for that surplus power, helping to balance supply and demand, which is essential to keeping the electrical grid up and running. ”
The electronics going into the new wave of cars are going to be just as cool and interesting. GM and Ford will be trying to outdo each other and the rest of the competition in all sorts of areas besides just the powertrains.
http://searchchicago.suntimes.com/autos/2097326,Autos-GMvFord-031110.article
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (6:29 pm)I work at a GM plant that produces two mode hybrid vehicles. Last year I saw a 12V battery charger hooked to the 12V battery of one of the units. I asked the repair guy what was going on, and he casually made the comment that he was charging the 300V battery. So I asked him how he was doing that. He said its just a simple software configuration with a TEC II! These vehicles have had the capability of plug in charging from the get go. I guess GM just doesn’t trust us with the plug.
Mar 15th, 2010 (6:58 pm)That’s interesting! Thanks for the info.
Mar 15th, 2010 (7:27 pm)#80
AWESOME!! +1
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:06 pm)Is that the future product lineup in the photo behind Bob Lutz? If so I like it. Low on fuel, high on style.
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:18 pm)Three inches might be about right. But that’s a fair amount of room. I’ve paid double to get that much extra room on international flights. (Yes I did get to close the door).
I’m just wondering if your understandable infatuation with the drive is coloring your perception of other parts of the car.
+1
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:19 pm)The Leaf has two charging points in the nose. An SAE J-1772 and a high powered one. I don’t think for a split second that GM or other OEM’s will let Nissan monopolize the use of high powered inlets if customers find that they work well.
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:20 pm)I think BillR has been saying this for a while. Interesting that it may be this easy.
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:22 pm)One more step to oil independence from insane rulers.
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:36 pm)hi DP #80 …
What a beautiful day to slip around in a Volt.
=D-Volt
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:51 pm)This would have made a good essay!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
+2
Mar 15th, 2010 (8:55 pm)Totally improbable (lol).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
No ER, No Sale!
Mar 15th, 2010 (9:57 pm)# 80 Dan,
I haven’t commented yet on your drive but I want to let you know that your comments in the last couple of days are the equal of a whole month of normal posts. Just knowing you and your respect for quality and all the people surrounding a vehicle, from manufacturers to technicians to customers, imbue your opinions with a whole lot of authority. For the last few days, all the handwringing about the comments from GM execs and the laments of the departures of Volt pioneers… they started to stick to me. My 100% confidence in GMs commitment to the Volt was sinking to 95% and 90%. But I read your first drive impression and my confidence meter pegged to a 100% again. I wasn’t too sure about your objectivity since you obviously had somewhat of an emotional rush, but you seem to have realized that problem for us, reading your impressions, and tried numerous times to address it… Well, just having read your comments in the past made your impressions very authoritative to me and very inspiring.
Thanks for your participation here and I appreciate your expertise and the obvious care you have for customers and mechanics alike.
Exit question: There was a paragraph at the link with your pic that had this:
“Amongst the Volt team, we have a saying when people drive the car for the first time, they usually have a “Volt smile” when they exit the car, but yesterday was a little different as one AustinEV member cried tears of joy after driving.”
Was that you?
Mar 15th, 2010 (11:10 pm)I don’t understand how supposedly responsible auto industry executives can talk blithely about how battery electric cars of 100 miles range will replace extended-range cars like the Volt.
They must know that the range is limited not only by the cost, size and weight of the battery but by how much electricity can be fed into the car overnight from a 120-volt convenience outlet in a private garage–which is the only practical method for the indefinite future. A battery car can be charged enough for a 40-mile range by that method. But a 100-mile range requires 2-1/2 times as much energy, which means 2-1/2 nights of charging. This ruins the whole idea.
One possible solution is to pay thousands to an electrical contractor to install a 240-volt dedicated line from the electric circuit-breaker panel to the garage. This ruins most of the whole idea.
Based on current technology, the only route is an extended range car like the Volt and an electric range of only 40 miles. Those GM engineers knew exactly what they were doing. The blowhard suits do not. Discouraging.
Mar 16th, 2010 (1:47 am)Peak oil planning.
Mar 16th, 2010 (5:33 am)Check out laser hydride storage of hydrogen. Think low pressure, less weight, 300 mile range, and completely clean.
http://plasmakinetics.com/
Battery electric is becoming obsolete along with hybrids. Soon, fuel cell vehicles and distributed
production of hydrogen will probably dominate. 2015 is only 57 months away. The Volt will be
four years old when fuel cell cars hit the market and GM will probably be in the red still unless
the fuel cell version succeeds.
Mar 16th, 2010 (5:34 am)Well Bob Lutz is tring to some how compensate for the GM CRUSH OF PURE ELECTRIC 100 miles range EV 1 back in 1995.
But its is a good think that GM wants to play in the same sand box with Reanult-Nissan Aliance and Tesla,Ford,Mitshubissi …and many other car makers of PURE ELECTRIC CARS !!!
ELECTRIC + SOLAR = FREEEDOM!!!
Mar 16th, 2010 (6:01 am)Albert Sanders you forget one thing. Most days the battery on cars that have a 100 mile range would not need to be fully charged as most days that range will not be fully utilized. This means that a charge over night WILL fully charge the battery and the long trip the next day will be doable. Of course you do need to get back but as long as you aren’t coming back immediatly than that won’t be a problem.
Mar 16th, 2010 (6:20 am)Not sure what reasoning you are using. The Volt can and will use alternative range extenders.
How about actually thinking this through.
Be well,
Tagamet
Mar 16th, 2010 (6:41 am)This presentation disagrees with other, more recent presentations.
Mar 16th, 2010 (11:23 am)That is because they are NOT claiming that 100 mile range will be adequate for everybody! The implication is they believe that much longer range will eventually be cost-effective and full re-charges could take place during a meal stop.
Mar 16th, 2010 (11:46 am)Interesting solution to the hydrogen storage problem. No details yet in terms of energy density, but claim more than twice as good as Tesla Roadster. New battery technology also claims twice and more energy density as well. Don’t count the battery as dead yet. Good to see competition, and may the best technology win, but I feel the battery will still be the winner.
Mar 16th, 2010 (1:38 pm)Good post! Hydrogen/fuel cell is effectively just a battery albeit a battery which can be recharged quickly. Not sure why people seem to think it is some kind of magical free power source. I can add that today’s r/c hobby LiPos charge at as high as a 6C rate, which is 6 times higher than the 1C rate of a couple years ago (1C means charging a 1000 mAH battery at 1 amp).
Are we supposed to just sit on our hands for 5 years and wait for all of those “almost here” technologies to mature? It takes several years to get a technology out of the lab and mature enough for the real world. I do this kind of stuff for a living so I sort of know what I am talking about. Just because you see something in Popular Science or a small company’s website doesn’t mean that it really exists. Anything can be promised in “Powerpoint-land”. I put more trust in what I see in the National Enquirer than in Popular Science (and similar rags/websites). At least the Enquirer gets sued when it’s a fib.
In 2016 when your 2011 Volt’s battery is getting a little tired after 5 years or so (I really doubt 10 years is possible, we’ll see) I have no doubt you’ll be able to upgrade to a new battery and software for at least 2X the charge rate and 2X the range. Batteries are improving that quickly, and then some.
Mar 16th, 2010 (3:57 pm)Some more thoughts on PlasmaKinetics hydrogen storage. Hydrogen has been promoted as superior to batteries on two fronts. One is charge/refill time and the other is weight. Hydrogen refill can be under 10 minutes (note not as fast as filling your gas tank), and I don’t think this time scale is reasonable for batteries (not impossible just not practical), although 30 minutes is. But on the weight issue the problem has been to contain the H2 gas, and light-weight 10,000psi carbon fiber tanks have been the most common solution so far. Although much lighter than batteries, these tanks have been bigger, so volume has been the primary issue. PlasmaKinetics has solved the volume problem by adding weight, as hydrides are very heavy. So now we have a hydrogen storage solution that has the same problem as batteries. By the time you add the weight and size of the fuel cell, any weight advantage over batteries is lost. Also we have no idea of the cost of the PlasmaKinetics solution.
I just think the trade-off is humorous.
Mar 16th, 2010 (4:44 pm)I’m not so sure there — it’s rather “seat of the pants”, but hobbyists routinely recharge 3S A123 batteries using a direct connection to a 12V car battery and a length of lamp cord to provide enough resistance (yes it heats up) to limit the current. Google “zip charging”. This gets the battery charged in 4-6 minutes. So perhaps some kind of parallel charging setup could be used for a fast charge — much simpler than a fuel cell in any case. So I don’t think that we’re all that far away from recharging a Volt-type battery in under 10 minutes. Yes it’s a lot of joules or whatever to transfer from A to B, but as an engineer I’d rather solve this problem than the hydrogen/fuel cell problem. Also this is far simpler than some of the other proposed solutions like recharging from the road, battery swaps, etc.
Mar 16th, 2010 (7:12 pm)Yes it was.
I had to dry my watered-up eyes several times. But there were others who had to have their turns, so I left immediately anyway so that I could come back here to share with everyone the experience.
It’s a new world of change that is coming for all of us.
Mar 17th, 2010 (1:38 am)Such amazing hope for the electrified future. I’ll forgive GM for the slaughter of the EV1 for their changing opinion about electric cars.
If this is true, then I’ll be back to buying American.
Mar 17th, 2010 (6:33 am)But for many of us a BEV-100 is not good enough, which is why having an EREV is the lineup is necessary.
Mar 17th, 2010 (6:40 am)It should not cost ‘thousands’ to add a dryer circuit anywhere.
Mar 19th, 2010 (6:33 am)This is good news, I hope after this the car users can get a good mileage car which is directly helps to save the money.
Mar 26th, 2010 (1:00 am)Good posting, I bookmarked your blog post so I can visit again in the near future, Cheers