The recent report that GM has cancelled the Cadillac Converj program, has led to some speculation that GM has revised its thinking of the value of the extended range electric or Voltec propulsion system. The report stated that GM could not find a value proposition in putting Voltec propulsion into a Cadillac.
As a Cadillac the car would have to be smoother, faster, and heavier than the Volt. This would necessitate more battery and cost, and thus GM has opted to use the 2-mode plugin parallel drivetrain for the brand. That system uses less battery, has less electric range, and uses the combustion engine whenever power demands are high.
Though this makes sense for the Cadillac brand, GM spokesperson Brain Corbett denies GM is moving away from Voltec.
“First of all we never announced the Converj was a production program ” he said.
“We’ve consistently said we’re going to increase our offering of electrified vehicles,” said Corbett. “We continue to develop the technology…Voltec is an active program.”
“There will be future plugin applications though we haven’t identified the vehicles or brands yet,” he added. “You’ll see multiple hybrids, plugin hybrids, and EREVs.”
He admitted that, “plugins are a little cheaper and the vehicles can be more capable,” than for Voltec.
But confirmed, “we’re not pulling back on Voltec.”
“We see both lineages evolving in parallel,” he added.
+6
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:30 am)GM already gave it’s reasons why it would not build the Converj. As to why people put more into it, should just be ignored.
+18
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:31 am)Just get the cars on the road. We will buy the vehicles we think make the most sense…..
NPNS
+11
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:36 am)We know the technology exists, so I won’t rest easy until I can go to a dealer anywhere and actually buy a car that can do most of my everyday around town driving without using gasoline!
+3
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:44 am)I think the people in the Cadillac market wouldn’t bother plugging it in unless there was an all-electric range above 20 miles. Below that, it will be run on gasoline only. Stupid move, GM.
I think the killing of the Converj has a lot to do with why Lutz is leaving.
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:45 am)The Federal tax credits won’t last forever. Maybe the 2 mode hybrid is the way to go. If it isn’t, then 2 years time means 2 years less available tax credits. I wish GM the best of luck with whichever route they take.
=D-Volt
+5
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:46 am)I think all the wrist-wringing about GM’s decision to not build the Converj reflects our desire (impatience, even?) to see ER-EV techonlogy move on to the next level.
We long-time GM-Volt devotees have been living with Gen. 1 for three years now, so to speak. We want to see what’s next. For GM, “what’s next” probably won’t happen until we see significant improvements in battery performance or price. Either would enable a better battery pack (or a lower cost for similar performance), which is the key to a significant improvement over what GM has in the works today. (Side note: I believe that said future improvement is what Opel is banking on when it announced the specs of its Flextreme)
In the meantime, we should look to other manufacturers who are jumping on the ER-EV bandwagon, such as Audi, to see where this architecture goes.
+3
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:01 am)My main disappointment with this cancellation has more to do to with the thought that GM will attempt to wring out all of the development costs of Voltec from sales of the Volt than it does with seeing “what’s next.” I’ve always thought the $40K price point that has commonly been claimed is way too high for the target market and reflects a desire on GM’s part to recoup costs in a short period of time.
At least with the system in a luxury mark they could legitimately charge more for it and more easily lower the cost on the Chevy version to make it as broadly available as possible.
Only time will tell what route they take but I honestly feel they should just bite the bullet and sell the car at a loss so that they can take a large chunk of market share from Toyota’s hybrid sales. If the Volt ends up being a boutique product it will never achieve what it was conceived to do.
+2
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:02 am)They are smart to pursue multiple strategies. It will likely lead to greater success. I just got my Ford Fusion Hybrid last week and it’s a stellar car. Even though the Volt would use less gas I doubt it’d be much more fun to drive. Even so, I think this is just the natural evolution of business strategy. I’d be more worried about GM if they blindly and stubbornly stuck with one strategy even if it doesn’t make sense for all situations.
+13
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:07 am)Maybe OT, maybe not. The Sunday Detroit Free Press (bless their hearts) had an article on Opel and GM and how they are “Made for each other”. An item in the article states that while Opel and GM complement each other Fritz Henderson was willing to sell Opel, because of some business challenges, but Ed Whitacre saw the strategic benefit and would not part with Opel. Makes my respect for Ed go up about 5 notches.
-1
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:11 am)I hope GM marketing is listening, because a plug-in Caddy makes no sense.
The problem is inconvenience. Here’s an example:
• Regular gas car – 15 minutes per week to fill up on gas
• EREV – 7 minutes per day to plug and unplug
• Plug-in Hybrid – 22 minutes per week to plug, unplug and fill up on gas
In other words, a plug-in hybrid with only 10-miles of electric assist still requires frequent trips to the gas station, while the EREV does not, so the net difference in inconvenience is considerable. This is especially true if the plug-in is driven with hard acceleration, which is more typical of a Caddy driver.
+4
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:15 am)The Detroit Sunday Free Press also had some more gems. An article on Toyota about how devious they are about quality problems. An article about CPI, which included a picture of a battery pack for an unnamed OEM, looked like it could be for a Tesla. Also a little picture and sound bite equivalent of Carlos Ghosn with a quote speaking of the European electric car market, “In 2011, I’m going to be the only one on the market.”
Be well and prosper.
+2
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:16 am)Yes, exactly.
A regular hybrid Cadillac (non-plug-in) may make sense, but a PHEV – no.
Bottom line: It’s not the plug that matters, it’s the electric range…
+7
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:19 am)I hope it’s the truth and EREV’s are here to stay. GM you have a great product here by pushing the boundaries, keep pushing.
-1
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:21 am)Maybe an inductive coupling is more important for a Cadillac. The iPhone apps might not be so important.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:21 am)I agree with everything you have said here.
Please note that it is E-REV! That is an electric – range extended vehicle; range extended vehicle is accentuated because GM is pushing the Flex Fuel concept. Expect to see vehicles with a variety of range extenders. After all, the important identifier is the e/E that appears in front of the other letters as in eMini and E-Flex (the old name for Voltec).
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:27 am)Also here is a link to an article about GM selling Volts in Japan in 2011 (would that not be a waste?): http://www.caradvice.com.au/58876/chevrolet-volt-considered-for-2011-launch-in-japan/
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:28 am)In order for an inductive coupling to work efficiently, the two parts have to be very close. For example, I believe the EV1 used an inductive charger – a paddle that inserted into a plastic slot – no metal contacts.
For something that you park near, it would require some type of self-guided actuator to move it exactly into place, and that would make actual metal contacts just as viable. Of course, a self-guided actuator to moves exactly into place would be costly.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:39 am)Inductive charging and rear-view cameras (like FlexTreme)are just a few features possible that would fall in line with what we expect out of the Cadillac brand. GM would best gain recognition for new and innovative ideas by coming out with the next level of technological developments in the Cadillac brand.
Inductive charging as Herm, Koz, and I mentioned yesterday would be a neat technology incorporated into future drive trains. Being an additional component system, space would be required meaning a larger and heavier car. This technology is where the future cars will be going.
I wonder what new ideas are on the table in GM’s engineering departments?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:41 am)Thanks for the link. Here’s a snip:
“The company hopes that in addition to Volt to be able to offer four new models in Japan over the next twelve months beginning with the Chevrolet Camaro, Chevrolet Cruze and Chevrolet Aveo. At least one (unnamed) offering from Cadillac is also believed to be on the cards.”
Again it looks like GM is counting on the Volt as a halo effect. I think they’re in for a big surprise here.
The Prius is very fuel efficient, and since other Toyota cars are considered efficient, the Prius halo helped the whole brand.
But the Volt uses a different primary fuel source. That’s a lot different than fuel efficiency. How does that help the rest of the GM brand? People who are interested in a Volt won’t switch up to a Camaro. The Volt halo won’t work. GM needs more EREVs.
+7
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:45 am)I’ve long advocated an optional drive-on inductive coupling —you simply drive up on it until the front wheels settle into detents (like at a car wash). The car’s weigh 1) hoists an arm containing the transformer primary up until it closely contacts/couples to the secondary permanently attached under the car and 2) automatically switches 120V (or 240V) to the primary. This is inherently safe (has no exposed wiring or plugs), it takes NO additional time when parking and it has the side advantage that your car is always parked at exactly the right position in the garage.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:56 am)Having this feature would raise the price of a vehicle . But it might not be so costly. An in cabin guidance system could indicate when the vehicle is parked in the correct position. A sensor would indicate when the maximum flux interconnection is reached by proper positioning of the car in proximity to inductive charger. It wouldn’t be necessary for a self guided actuator; this could be achieved by driving the vehicle to the proper position. A cut off switch would turn off the electric motor stopping the vehicle just where it should be. I agree that it would raise the cost of the vehicle but that’s just the way new technology starts out to be at first.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-2
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:58 am)Oh boy. GM is thinking again….no wonder the Converj is history.
Mar 8th, 2010 (9:07 am)You comment popped in before mine did.
Nassaman, I like your suggestions for implementing inductive charging for motor vehicles. With all the talk about driver free guidance for travel on the roads in the future, I would expect to see a computer program included for the vehicle’s inductive charging. Perhaps it would be seen before we get to drive without our hands on the steering wheel.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+8
Mar 8th, 2010 (9:35 am)How could you spend 7 minutes plugging and unplugging? 30 seconds is more like it. Do you spend 5 minutes plugging and unplugging your cell phone?
Mar 8th, 2010 (9:38 am)Dont use the word “inductive coupling”.. the new method being used is “wireless power transfer”, high 95% efficiency and does not require close proximity to work.. the pad does not even have to be on the floor.
I think there is a market for a 10 mile AER Cadillac.. I know several people that only drive a handful of miles everyday.. the oil does not even have time to warm up.
+2
Mar 8th, 2010 (9:38 am)As I look at GM’s hybrids, plugins, and E-REV, the real difference seems to be the battery.
The Saturn Vue with a 6 cyl ICE was rated 16/22. When it was converted to 2-mode, the EPA rating was 28/31, and it still had great performance. Note that the NiMH battery for this vehicle only has 2.1 kWh of energy and can only provide 35 kW of power.
http://archives.media.gm.com/volt/eflex/docs/battery_102.pdf
The next step is the Vue plugin hybrid. Lyle test drove this vehicle, and noted its powerful acceleration. The GM person with him stated that it used the same power electronics module as the Volt. It uses a 1/2 sized Volt battery pack with 4 usable kWh. It can provide up to 55 kW of power. Assuming 4 miles per kW (less than the Volt’s 5), and a 40 mile daily commute, 16 miles come from electricity, and 24 from gas. So at ~ 30 mpg CS mode, this equates to 40/(24/30) = composite 50 mpg! Great performance and good mileage makes a great value proposition.
The ultimate in reduced gas consumption (but without so much performance) is the Voltec system. I believe this will be offered in smaller vehicles for now.
So the recent Cadillac XTS concept with its plugin 2-mode will likely offer a 300 hp V6 with an additional 55 kW electrical or about 375 hp combined. Torque will be around 400 lb-ft combined. Yet, like the plugin Vue, it can achieve 50 mpg!
For the Cadillac buyer, I see the full size XTS at 375 hp and 50 mpg more attractive than the smaller Converj at 160 hp and 200 mpg.
+3
Mar 8th, 2010 (9:40 am)Good god! How difficult do you find it to plug in a cord? Reminds me how NASA spent millions building a ball point pen that would work in space. The Russians used a pencil.
+6
Mar 8th, 2010 (9:48 am)Admit it… The Truth is that we only want the Converj for that sexy body, (just like Kim Kardashian), and we don’t care what powers it. Whether it’s Voltec or a Carl’s Jr. Double Cheeseburger, we just want to get our hands on that body!
If Cadillac releases the Converj with the same V6 found in the CTS, they would have another hit on their hands. Maybe until the gas pump hits $6.999 per gallon.
Mar 8th, 2010 (9:49 am)How about giving us all a link to the article?
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (9:50 am)The have machines that automatically connect a milking machine to a cow using optical sensors. Having a self guided plug under the car shouldn’t be any harder. I doubt that you can get 220v 50 amps through inductive charging or even a tenth of that.
I’ve often wondered how may people will forget to plug in their Volt and notice that the car performs exactly the same. There is no immediate down side to forgetting. They start forgetting more and more and eventually never bother any more. They now have a gas-electric car that is more like a locomotive than what the Volt was intended to do.
If gas prices go up, they start plugging in again until the cost of fuel isn’t as important. Either the price goes down or they get used to the high price.
+3
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:12 am)As our good friend Tag always says, Lets Just get The Volt’s Wheels On The Road.
Once Volt’s are in the wild people will generate ‘interesting’ data for the engineers to toss into the equation for designing and refining the drivetrain. This feedback will help the next generation(s) of Voltec to be more efficient, more powerful, and less expensive.
The Gen 2 or 3 Voltec drive train may well end up in a Cadillac but it’s a good move to keep the focus on the Volt only for now.
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:14 am)Any idea of a price point?
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:15 am)Excellent summary, Bill! My only comment is that using the “fuzzy” (but legitimate) math the expected new EPA rules for determining mpg for EV’s allow, the plug-in Caddy XTS with 1/2 a Volt battery should be able to easily achieve >60mpg. Remember, that’s how Volt can be rated at the eyebrow-raising (but legitimate) 230 mpg —so I think my >60mpg guesstimate for the plug-in XTS is actually rather conservative.
+5
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:16 am)Lyle,
How about an article on battery advances and what the projections are for the next 5 years. GM had to pick a technology and freeze a baseline for the Volt development probably about 18 months ago. Is the technology or energy density any better today? Is it projected to be better in a couple years when they come out with Gen 2? I haven’t seen any discussion on this topic at all.
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:21 am)A drive-on inductive coupler design can be a very simple electro-mechanical mechanism. So my guess is that many Caddy drivers would willingly cough up as much as $475, which should still leave plenty of margin for GM & the dealer.
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:35 am)So what do you think of this idea? Make the Converj body with the plug-in 2-mode drivetrain being discussed for the CTX. Do not offer a version which does not have this drive train.
As a Chevy dealership employee, I wonder if you could comment on how easy / difficult it was to sell the earlier large-car hybrid system as an option.
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:39 am)Well $475 is a very doable price point. The 220V installation could be several times this depending on how far the garage is from the box. I was thinking you’d have to do some work on the garage floor but with your price that’s obviously not the case.
At that price I’d buy one in a heartbeat.
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:44 am)Great summary Bill. What’s interesting is that the largest amount of gasoline is saved during the first step — going from the straight ICE to the two mode.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:44 am)Neil
I have had my Fusion Hybrid since August of 2009… Still loving it!
Lifetime mileage is at 6.7 L/100 KM which is 42.1 MPG Canadian or 35.1 US.. and this is with driving through some extremely cold weather in December
(-38C for 5 days and never above -14C for the rest of the month)..and other than one stuck relay (which I diagnosed and fixed in 20 minutes) this car has run trouble free…
15,743 KMs to the first oil change and the oil was still very clean..
Cost savings so far…
2 less oil changes..@ $ ???
$125 – 150 per month in fuel savings. (most of my driving is combined city/highway 80/20)
And the L/100 KM is steadily going down now that the warmer weather is here…
I still want a Volt for my driveway, will keep the Fusion Hybrid as it is a bigger car.
ETA for my Volt … provided GM delivers as planned … will be sometime in 2013/2014
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:49 am)Any device capable of automatically placing an inductive coil precisely underneath it’s on-board counterpart would work just as well for making actual plug contacts. Low-power communication could verify connectivity before applying charge current, in case you’re worried about garage-flammables or an inquisitive pet. Let’s not make things needlessly complex.
I tend to agree with those who say that plugging in is not “too inconvenient” for most drivers.
-1
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:51 am)As Herm #25 said , you don’t need induction. Use wireless power transfer. The thing can hang on the wall by your power entrance.
http://www.ecoupled.com/?gclid=CMP9p7rAqaACFRsbswodP2EEaA
Induction is a generation old.
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:55 am)I agree, plugging in should not be a hassle. Think recharger stand — Roomba style, and autopark mode: Also like Roomba. Please, no lame Success tune ‘th. These stands could also be setup for special parking spots for Volt owners who patronize restaurants and ?
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:00 am)Sorry to hear you’re still having to buy gas for your 80% city driving. I hope you can make it ’til 2013.
+3
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:05 am)It takes 10 seconds and is as easy as plugging in your phone. The parking lining up maneuver to position yourself over an automatic device would take longer.
What I really want is a $500 device that will unlock my deadbolt, turn my garage door knob and push open the door into the house.
Peder
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:06 am)Is this what you’re talking about?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070607171130.htm
My understanding of the experiment is that the initial resonant coils had to have a particular, space-hogging shape. We are only 3 years from initial demonstration now, and while a more space-efficient system may be in the offing, it will likely not make it to cars until after a few more years of research. I’m thinking that even at that, the receiver system would have to be designed into the car, not offered as an add-on option.
Consider also that the best place for such a power-transfer resonator is probably up high along the roof, not underneath the car: and what would this do for lightning resistance?
If wireless power transfer could be practically done, would it lead to a means of directly powering urban EVs? Once proven out, wireless power transfer could become a transformative technology, not just a convenience. It is likely to have a profound effect on the paradigm of the electric vehicle itself; changing not just how it is plugged in, but how it is designed and used.
+2
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:11 am)It should open your cold beer too… THEN you will have something good!
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:11 am)See movie “Electric Dreams”. Automation can have unintended consequences.
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:13 am)#16 Thanks for the great link. +1
I don’t think that it would be a waste. I fact, I love it! In their faces with a better technology. What could be sweeter.
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:17 am)#28
I agree. +1
LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:22 am)Amen on all points!
Can someone explain, in terms that even *I* might understand, the meaningful differences between (from the article):
“You’ll see multiple hybrids, plugin hybrids, and EREVs.”
Thanks,
(TOUGH start today – everything on the computer worked fine – except the monitor)(ARGH).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:22 am)Bruce,
Ray has made a real step toward the end goal which is to use less gasoline.
WHY would you criticize that sort of move?
I’m guessing Ray is in the Edmonton area which gets real live serious winter weather, there is currently no BEV that could operate safely in winter there. Not even the really expensive exotic very low to the ground Tesla sports car.
For the record Edmonton is quite a nice City in the summer.
(This is a BIG complement coming from somebody in Calgary!)
+2
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:24 am)I’m thinking that this will only make it that much easier for Toyota or Honda to reverse-engineer. Remember, our Japanese friends aren’t known for playing fair, where automobiles are concerned.
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:27 am)#31
Amen. +1
I’m not interested in Cadillacs, less still the Converj. I hope that GM will concentrate on getting Voltec into more popularly priced cars, CUVs, and light commercial vehicles. If it could become more of a mass market product, it could have a lot more impact on all the the issues discussed here so many times. I’m about 1000 times more interested in the Orlando than I am the Converj, just as an example. With a tip of the hat to CaptJack, how about a pickemup truck to replace my S-10 if and when it finally dies? Or how about a Voltec Spark that has 60 miles AER and 80 mpg after? Blow the Prius out of the game.
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:29 am)Neil,
Thanks for the real-life data! There’s nothing like info from the people who drive the vehicle day-in, day-out.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:29 am)Affection for Converj in this site approximates VOLT. True the Caddy brand must distinguish itself with size and comfort wrapped in super duper silence. For a whole bunch of reasons GM’s shut down of Converj just doesn’t wash. We know there’s basic economics. But this model was two or three times after rumors of its demise reaffirmed. There’s absolutely nothing that’s cited today that wasn’t known then. That’s the rub. Certainly here the general feeling Lutz resigned over Converj bears merit.
On polls. GM relied on polls predicated on average this and average that. That’s one-sided. The polls should have inquired about driver preferences. In other words, the fallacy here is the question is slanted to an answer. “What is average driving range?” – where the question should be framed “Would you prefer A to B; B to A; or if not that then what?” Then the follow question is “If you had a choice between A or B, which would you likely buy?” … “Why?”. And then done double-blind (Neutral) So those telling me a 500 mile range isn’t important or that can be done by refilling so why bother… its not about fitting a square peg (the poll shows the average drives 40 miles to work every day) into a square hole. (Therefore you buy a VOLT that goes 40 miles on a charge.) Its about filling a need.
-1
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:31 am)Yeah, but it was a 4 million dollar pencil. (g)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+3
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:32 am)You are right… I am from Edmonton,, and Calgary is really not that bad a city (:-).
Thanks for the support…
Ray
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:33 am)#52
If they want to reverse engineer it, they will. They can buy one and take it apart in Torrance, CA if they want to. Or put it in a container and ship it to JA and take it apart there. To me it’s worth the risk, if any, to reduce the !@#$%^ balance of payments by even one !@#$% car. Do you doubt that GM has taken apart a Prius? I would be disappointed if they hadn’t.
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:39 am)Hybrid: GM 2mode, Toyota HSD, Ford Hybrid drive (All basically the same although the mechanism does vary between them), they are primarily gas engine driven but have a limited electric drive only mode, the engine can directly drive the wheels.
Plug in Hybrid: Same as above but add a bigger battery and a plug. These should have a larger electric range than their non-plugin brethren.
EREV: Chevy VOLT and several new concept cars. Electric drive all the time but with a backup gas powered generator to allow running beyond the battery only electric range and in extreme weather conditions where a BEV would have to be left home.
Hope your day gets better TAG!
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:40 am)I can agree with most of this sentiment; but while I’m not in the market for a Cadillac, the success of the Volt is dependent on the larger success of GM. There won’t be a Gen II Volt if GM goes under within 5 years, much less a Voltec truck or CUV.
Yes, I have been very critical of how GM wants to roll out plug-in 2-mode; but only because the strategy may be more important than the technology itself.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:41 am)No me convence.
Sigo pensando que es una claudicación tácita del sistema Voltec y por tanto un fracaso del Volt, lo cual me entristece.
También es muy raro la retirada de Bob Lutz, meses antes de salir el Volt.
El Converj con el sistema Voltec tal como se había anunciado hubiera sido un crack en Europa.
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:52 am)I was thinking the same thing! The number of vehicles actually sold there last year was, ahem, unimpressive.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
Mar 8th, 2010 (11:57 am)Some times i think voltec is the correct solution for trucks.
A simple search showed it is Diesel electric transmission is being used in trains/submarines for a long time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel-electric_transmission
They should use ultracapacitirs only for some time instead of batteries and no plug for some time and iron out the technology.
This shifts the transmission from gears to profiles (like commuter, work- light, work – med , work heavy ) and generate/ activate rotors only required for that particular profiles and allows newer designs of Generators for max efficiency (like use low rpm engine design etc )
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:03 pm)Thanks, MRR,
When you put it that way, I don’t know why I was getting confused (though I suspect fussing over the blasted computer for 3 hours had an impact).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:04 pm)I was wondering what the source was for these quotes from Brain.
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:07 pm)OT: 50% improved fuel economy for ICE?
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/24701/?nlid=2798&a=f
Interesting and debuts relatively soon!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:17 pm)People who drove high end Lexus’ switched down to drive the Prius. Will Volt drivers perceive the Camaro as stepping up?
IMO the “halo affect” if there is any, would give folks a better perception of the OEM overall and allow buyers to perceive their cars to be somehow better than the competitors vehicle in the same class. It’s not just a matter of willing to stepping up in class but, also perceiving your Malibu to be as good or better than BMW’s 1 series, or Toyota’s Camry.
+2
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:27 pm)I don’t think you are wrong for Voltec gen2.
The Gen 1 system is designed and sized for what is really a compact car, it will not have the power or durability for a truck.
I honestly think (and have posted to the point) that gen 2 will bring a new ‘truck’ Voltec AWD Astro van and Colorado (Volterado?) AWD pickup combined platform.
This Truck Platform would ideally pull 5000lbs and carry 1500lbs.
It’ll require a unique truck Voltec variant to allow that to happen.
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:29 pm)Nice range extender!!!!!! Did you see the comments about the sailing ship effect, Hmmmm.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:30 pm)<<<<<>>>>
Something here just does not sound right. If Voltec is costlier as GM spokesman Brian Corbett alludes to, why wouldn’t GM be smart to apply it to their most expensive brand?
And just what does he mean by (plugin) ‘vehicles can be more capable’ than for Voltec?
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:35 pm)It just may not be a good fit for the weight and areo of the Caddy’s.
I’m not particularly “on top of things” today, but I thought the plugin vehicles being more capable was fuzzy too.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:42 pm)While I very much hope that you are correct, I have my doubts that this will happen by Gen II. It is far more likely that the plug-in 2-mode will appear in this kind of vehicle (and be sold for awhile) first. Gen II will be mostly about cost-reduction, based on GM quotes; it may allow a larger car or CUV but not even a moderately sized truck. Batteries will need to improve a great deal in performance as well as cost; and while we’ve seen a lot of promising research, we’ve also seen how long it takes to get to production-ready from any level of battery technology.
We may be looking at GEN III or IV before seeing true EREV in anything larger than an S-10 (which would itself be a notable achievement). This generation would mark Voltec’s transition from size-limited models to “the sky’s the limit” (at least for consumer-scale vehicles). Call that a unique variant if you want.
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:43 pm)Lyle, How about some feedback on NYC drive contest??
bernie
+2
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:48 pm)You are absolutely correct, I apologize. I felt bad after posting, but it was too late to delete.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:48 pm)Isn’t the purpose of Volt to replace traditional production?
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:51 pm)I took it to mean that a 2-mode Silverado can for example drive to 7-11 for a slurpee and back without burning a drop of gas, but can then fire up the V8 and pull a 30 ft trailer where ever it needs to go.
The thing that is killing 2-mode truck sales is the PRICE.
A 2-mode Tahoe is $71000 Cdn before subsidies.
I can buy a Range Rover Sport for $73000 Cdn.
(My 97′ Discovery is starting to get a bit tired, and for ‘only’ $2k more I’m likely to get the ‘Rangie’.)
Price is what is killing 2-mode sales and nothing else because the trucks are GOOD.
-9
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:57 pm)The keyword he used was Parallel (aka NOT SERIAL). The serial drive train is just not as flexible for different vehicle options as the parallel platform used in most other hybrids including the most popular Toyota Prius. The Prius is so good my friend Woz owns nine of them, that’s right NINE !
Also, not sure the Volt will ultimately sell in the large numbers GM originally envisioned since that is why they branded it a Chevy. But Chevy has never sold millions of copies of a $40,000+ car before and it remains to be seen if they can sustain good sales numbers after the few die hard early adopters have gone away.
I am hoping most Volt owners will quickly upgrade to a pure EV once they get a small taste of what an EV can do for them (even if its only part-time on a Volt). If most initial Volt owner upgrade to a real EV than repeat Volt sales will decline even more rapidly in later years.
Nobody with half a brain sees the Volt lifespan beyond its 5 year cycle that is for sure. It is mainly just a bridge to the proper EV so it was a good move to trash the ERev Caddy no doubt about it.
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:58 pm)You could well be right on the timeline but it’s definitely coming, I was wearing my ‘Tag’ hat when I wrote that…
(He’s ‘grumpy’ this morning with PC issues so I’ve got his back!)
Mar 8th, 2010 (12:59 pm)I think Corbett means GM “plugins” are 2-mode PHEVs (either FWD or RWD). As such, they’ll generally have an ICE that’s MUCH larger than needed to simply prevent the battery from discharging as with Voltec, therefore also be able to tow horse or boat trailers, etc. Yet, with large batteries (like the 8Kwh 1/2 Volt battery in the plug-in VUE design) and correct algorithms in the Control Electronics, they’ll ALSO be able to achieve very high mpg — >60 mpg, I believe.
PS: As you know, Tag, I’ve liked the plug-in Vue design for > 2 yrs…that’s it’s “more capable” as I think Corbett means (and as I say it means to me) is the reason why.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:00 pm)SO nice to see folks getting along. +1 and +1
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:01 pm)Thanks for saying so! It’s appreciated.
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:03 pm)#66 Tagamet OT: 50% improved fuel economy for ICE?
There are some interesting comments to this article on that site. I hope this method will make it to market this time. It’s too bad that the person who originally thought of this idea won’t benefit from it. If the Volt can use this method, people could have their 600 mile range after all! This technology could rock the competition boat dramatically. My only concerns would be: 1. Does the catalyst used prior to injection have any negative affects on the combusted fuel? 2. Is this method safe when you have to heat the fuel to a critical point prior to injection? This technology does sound very promising.
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:03 pm)Sorry, it was a Physical paper copy. But this evening when I get home I will look for the electronic equivalent.
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:17 pm)It’s taken Toyota 3 generations of Prius to introduce a Lexus HS 250H – The closest Lexus to touch on the Prius customer mindset. People who want to be green, have a “green chic” appearance, or just wish their Prius had cushier leather and are willing to sacrifice 12 mpg to drive a Lexus are the target market, I assume. Sales of the HS have been slow to start, but have picked up momentum just before the recall. 10,000 HS 250Hs sold in Japan the first month due to some fairly stout tax and price incentives from the Japanese government.
I’m sure Cadillac bean counters are watching the HS 250H’s sales numbers rather closely to gauge their next move into the E-assist marketplace. They should note that the RX hybrid sales have been stout since it’s inception. Other Lexus hybrid models have been shown less enthusiasm in the U.S. marketplace.
RECHARGE! James
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:17 pm)http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2007/05/11/superheated-smokey-fiero/
Been tried before… after reading several articles I’m still not sure whether this Fiero really did what is claimed or not.
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:18 pm)A physical paper? lol. Virtually unheard of.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:19 pm)I like the layout of your blog and I’m going to do the same thing for mine. Do you have any tips? Please PM ME on yahoo @ AmandaLovesYou702 6 7 6
-5
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:28 pm)Ehhh…….wrong answer!
The purpose was to have a better hybrid and continue to use gas in what folks greenwashingly call the Volt an EV.
It is supposed to “leapfrog” the Prius but then they come out with this typical lame excuse for a Hybrid 2 mode garbage. They already know it doesn’t sell because it’s too damn expensive but nooo…..they still build it anyway. Poster 76 get’s it…
“The thing that is killing 2-mode truck sales is the PRICE.
A 2-mode Tahoe is $71000 Cdn before subsidies.
I can buy a Range Rover Sport for $73000 Cdn.”
GM doesn’t get it.
Same old GM, one step forward, two steps back.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:29 pm)#77
Well I modestly claim to have at least 1/2 a brain and I think that your time line is wildly optimistic. 20 years, maybe. As to the rest of it, -1. Although I do agree with you on the Caddy, LOL.
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:29 pm)Ed Whitacre was the best move GM ever made. The iPhone was a game changer. IMO GM’s old guard had to give way to people who are not necessarily “car people”. GM needs people who think outside the garage.
The 21st century buyer wants gimmicks and gadgets. It took Ed Whitacre’s vision to recognize the impact of the iPhone on it’s market, and I feel he will definately see the possibilities the Volt and Voltec platform present.
It’s clean slate time at GM. Toyota spread it’s Synergy Drive platform throughout it’s luxury segment and has had some big hits and a few misses. Honda tried to hybridize it’s midsize segment with the Hybrid Accord which flopped miserabley because they loaded the car with all the options and sold it for a premium. Accord buyers didn’t get the memo.
There’s some key lessons there GM has to extrapolate.
RECHARGE! James
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:35 pm)Keep in mind that the first 2+ years of development were wiped clean with bankruptcy. In light of that I am not concerned about them recouping costs. Hey, maybe that’s the reason why recent hints from GM have been for a price tag substantially under $40K?
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:40 pm)Yup, too much add on crap to hide the true cost of a Hybrid…..
http://www.hybridcenter.org/hybrid-scorecard/
Check out who the worst is.
I’m obviously not a 21st Century guy. I want a bare bones model….
No Power Windows
No Power Adjust Seats
No Power Side view mirrors
No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all!!)
No Power Door Locks
No Power Trunk lock
No Radio (Remember that fiasco? – Get an iPod)
No Heated Seats
No GPS (My Phone has one and it WORKs!)
No OnStar!!!
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge!!!
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:42 pm)From the post “Though this makes sense for the Cadillac brand, GM spokesperson Brain Corbett denies GM is moving away from Voltec.”
Brain first denies GM is moving away from Voltec and then gives a detailed argument of several paragraphs as to why Voltec is inferior in all significant respects. As he tells it in more detail, Voltec is higher cost for lower performance. So why would GM stay with Voltec for any line?
Brain confuses me.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:43 pm)Thanks, MRR. I am, and you do.(half smile)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:43 pm)This is not accounting for the Caddy, Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, etc buyers that traded in their daliy driver for a Prius. There are “luxury buyers” that traded down to a Prius for the gas savings (not $ savings). They would be more than happy to trade back up for a more luxurious vehicles that equals or beats their Prii. The problem is that their currently is no such option available to purchase today. I think the Fisker reservations are a strong indicator of this. These are the buyers that Cadillac will miss out on and they will be left with ones that don’t care about fuel consumption very much which will prefer a regular ICE for significantly less $.
Mar 8th, 2010 (1:49 pm)Yeah, I know that you have that boat to tow.
It *was* a fairly ambiguous turn of phrase (to me), but your explanation fits.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+3
Mar 8th, 2010 (2:14 pm)I’m not familiar with the upcoming Cadillac 2-mode, and I can’t wait to drive one. I have sold my share of Tahoe and Silverado Hybrids. I would love to own the Tahoe Hybrid, but like many of my typical customers I can’t pony up $52,000 to get one.
I’ve mentioned here many times that we could sell a bunch more if they would leave out the LTZ option list. Instead of the $3500 Audio+Nav+Backup Cam+Hybrid System Display, how about 3 simple lights on the dash: Green = Electric Mode… Blue = Gas & Electric Mode… Orange = Gas Only Mode.
And leave out the Power Retracting Heated Mirrors, Power Liftgate, Running Boards, Power Sunroof, Power Heated Memory Seats, and Leather Interior. Just make a Tahoe Hybrid that’s just a base model that gets 25-30% better mileage for $39,500… Those would sell big time.
There is still a big market for Tahoe Hybrids if they were just a lot cheaper. IMO.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (2:20 pm)See what I mean!?!?!?!?!?!?
lol….
Mar 8th, 2010 (2:29 pm)What you said!
Mar 8th, 2010 (2:34 pm)Some news on the “Jelly Bean” car…
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/08/mitsubishi-and-psa-finalize-deal-for-100-000-electric-vehicles/
Mitsubishi and PSA Peugeot Citroen have finalized a supply deal that will see the Japanese automaker provide 100,000 electric vehicles to the French company over the life of the agreement. How long said agreement lasts hasn’t been publicly announced, but Mitsubishi is due to start building the French-badged cars this October.
Mar 8th, 2010 (2:36 pm)I think just about everyone would agree with this. But my guess is that GM adds these options as a way of burying the true cost of the hybrid system. IOW if you take out all the options you’d have to add a lot of those dollars back in to account for the hybrid drive train. So you can’t get to where CJS wants to go from here.
Mar 8th, 2010 (2:38 pm)Good question!
Hopefully we’ll know the answer within the next couple months.
I’m concerned about the pre-subsidy price since that US only rebate does not apply in the rest of the world.
Mar 8th, 2010 (2:41 pm)That’s my guess too. I wish gm success with this system, but it seems to be so high cost and complex that one wonders if it can be competitive.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (2:54 pm)Which begs the question… Why is the light truck 2-mode system so expensive?
It doesn’t have a particularly big battery so what costs so much?
As I understand it the 2-mode trans has a common auto transmission at it’s core so really all that’s being added is a motor and it’s controller.
Want to win the corporate average fuel economy race?
Make ALL the light trucks 2-mode (vans too), and sell them at close to the current ‘normal’ truck prices.
Volume should allow the cost of the 2-mode components to be MUCH less from the suppliers.
If not, its time to get new suppliers.
The ONLY bad thing I have ever heard about the 2-mode trucks is the price.
Mar 8th, 2010 (2:59 pm)I really dislike being quoted out of context… sigh…
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (3:05 pm)Yeah, it’s just the price of fame, I guess (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (4:02 pm)This drive-on coupling would be a wonderful way to do it. People are keen to install something for electric cars, it seems, and it would be so much better if this device was what was installed. It would be really easy to use and hard to forget.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (4:17 pm)I agree with your assesment of making all light duty trucks 2-mode. We were lucky enufto get a Chrysler Aspen hybrid 2-mode and it has been near flawless for our family of 5. We bought it in Jan of 09 and got the employee pricing on it, so we ended up paying $17,000 less than the tahoe hybrid that we originally wanted to get which uses the EXACT same trans, battery pack, and electronic controller. If it had cost sticker price of $45k we would not have bought a hybrid. I see the slow sales of 2- modes as a marketing problem only, because the system works and is reliable. If I could get the wife to drive a smaller more fuel efficient vehicle I would. But she sees size as saftey for the kids, which has merrits that are rarely discussed here. Alot of soccermoms won’t buy the volt or a voltec car because it must be so small. I would love to have one but alas I have 3 kids and need a 5 seater. I think that is the real promise of the 2 mode, a mid-full size family sedan that cuts fuel consumption In half with no compromises. Mark my words, they will sell like hotcakes.
Mar 8th, 2010 (4:23 pm)Thanks to all for addressing my question. This gets to the heart of my misgivings about shelving Converj, in favor of 2-mode. If GM proves unable to promote and provide 2-mode (even as a plug-in) on it’s own merits, instead of a high-cost option for existing model lines, I strongly fear that it is headed down to bankruptcy for the last time. High-cost 2-mode as part of a luxury option package was the wrong way to go before bankruptcy, and it may be the fastest way to get back there without substantial cost reduction.
If GM truly wishes to make it’s 2-mode system relevant in a post-carpocalypse world, it needs to find a way to shed it’s exhorbitant cost. Period. If they don’t at least start out the plug-in reboot of the system as a dedicated two-mode model with attractive, “must buy” styling, they probably shouldn’t even bother to go this far.
I don’t want to see this great company rise from the ashes only to fall into the same 2-mode trap. If 2-mode was leapfrogged by the Volt along with HSD (and only GM knows if this is true), perhaps it would be better to wait until they can “find a value proposition in putting Voltec propulsion into a Cadillac.” To promote 2-mode as a reasonable alternative to this does not seem reasonable, given on-going Voltec development. How does spending a great deal of money on a competing system, which seems doomed to have a relatively short existence, make any sense? It only does IF “GM has revised its thinking of the value of the extended range electric or Voltec propulsion system.”
IOW, reassuring quotes have lost a lot of credibility lately, and we must now wait for actions. This doesn’t bode well for those of us who recall the openness of GM as Voltec was developed.
/hated to do that in front of the trolls, but …
//no March trip to NY for me …
///slashies
Mar 8th, 2010 (4:35 pm)Yes, I know GM is banking a lot on the opposite end of the automotive spectrum, with Cruise and Spark. However, it is at the small end of the scale where GM has it’s greatest perception problems. “American made is good for big cars and trucks, but for small efficient cars you have to go to Asia.” Let anything delay or undermine (or be perceived to undermine) the quality of these small models, and there will be nothing to offset the corporation’s return to it’s Luxury-emphasis ways.
It will be especially hard without the ‘halo effect’ of an ongoing and vigorous Voltec program. A Volt program which ‘runs it’s course’ and is dropped in 5 years will be a publicity bombshell, devastating to GM’s other efficiency / small car efforts.
And is this not the meaning of “GM has revised its thinking of the value of the extended range electric or Voltec propulsion system”?
.
Mar 8th, 2010 (5:49 pm)Okay, maybe that was over the top.
Didn’t mean to break the site …
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (5:52 pm)What you said. +1
Mar 8th, 2010 (5:55 pm)And wireless power transfer is almost 200 years old.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer
But just because something is newer doesn’t mean that it’s better. The health hazards and the electromagnetic interference from the huge magnetic fields, the weight and cost of the transformer windings, and the losses make this a better solution for a mobile phone than for an electric car.
Just drive on to some bus bars (or in to a connector) … simple and effective.
+2
Mar 8th, 2010 (6:02 pm)Totally agree. And they started to do this somewhat with the 2-mode pickups as you don’t have to get the big-dollar nav system and climate control for instance. But they could still de-content them even further to make them more attractive.
I have a 2-mode Tahoe and just love it. (yes, it was expensive but got “GM family” pricing which made it much more affordable. (I had planned to get a 2-mode Saturn VUE for my wife but alas it was not to be…)
But we also bought a pair of 2-mode hybrid pickups for the family business and these are already reaping decent returns in the 2-mode investment as they spend a lot of time rooting about in the suburbs and really do get amazing mpg even loaded down with payload. The 2-modes REALLY shine here IMO.All of them are also pretty great on the highway as well (as compared to non-hybrid equivalents) as they spend a great deal of time operating in V4-cyl mode with power assist from the hybrid motor/s even at 60-70mph.(I’ve watched this with a TECH2 scan tool and it “cycles” in and out at a pretty consistent duty cycle when holding a steady road load on the highway.
From what I hear the limiting factor is battery pack supply from Panasonic, so once GM secures more of their own in-house battery sources (i.e. Lithium Ion) I think you will see more of the 2-mode technology.
WopOnTour
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (6:06 pm)The status quo isn’t working for GM. So why steer away from technology that is obviously attracting buyers of Asian imports?
GM drops Voltec and focuses on 2 mode hybrids. Anyone here going to rush to a Buick dealer for a hybrid? Didn’t think so. Anyone here who currently owns an Asian car thinking they may like to own a Volt? Anyone here who hasn’t owned a GM product in the last 10 years thinking they would like to own a Volt? Or maybe switch to a new 35 mpg $40k Buick?
=D-Volt
Mar 8th, 2010 (6:07 pm)(peeks out from behind tree) Is it safe to come out now?
My view is that the most important point you’re making is that all we can do is wait and watch GM’s actions. Literally all the players have changed since the Volt Concept and the release draws near. There’s obviously no way to know what these changes will mean to the Voltec system or any other approach GM takes to gain efficiency, creds, profits, etc.
Personally, I think that the transparency of the Volt’s development was a singularly brilliant move for GM, especially, given the burden of history. But that transparency may not be necessary, or even desirable, as GM moves (hopefully) forward. Certainly, I’m focused here, but I don’t *think* that other companies are shining a spotlight -daily! – on their behind the scenes activities, (and certainly not their product planning).
Given all of the newborn participation of *other* companies to field a Voltec-like vehicle, it seems at least probable that the Volt will not be a one-of-a-kind vehicle. Granted, a lot of the propaganda coming out (from other companies) may be a front for “Let’s see how the Volt does” approach. Will the demand continue for the Volt? Will it eventually turn a profit? Will GM generate and field Volt siblings?
We’ll need to wait and see.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (6:15 pm)enters office … lays down on couch
Should I start with my early childhood?
Mar 8th, 2010 (6:28 pm)(lol) “What’s the first *car* you can remember?”
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (6:41 pm)I know this is off topic but the “Volt” and “Voltec” brand names are just so good. It’s been a long time since GM has put together a good engineering design AND name. I know the name shouldn’t be important but it is for some reason. And Volt is just great.
Chevette, Cimarron, … some names in a long list of GM duds. Sometimes I feel like a crappy name doesn’t make the engineers want to really work on the product. The name “Volt” just inspires confidence I think.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (6:43 pm)The Prius’ performance started out poor and is just now getting to be on the slow side of average. They made some high end, higher performing HSD models but they also took big efficiency hits. Fisker (if they ever produce a car) and Tesla came in at the high end, much like most new technology solutions. Voltec as designed for Gen1 with 120KW max is a little power limited for a Caddy and this is a legitimate excuse for not production it in the Converj at this point. It can raltively easily be upgraded to a 140-160KW version for use in Caddy’s, small pickups, and small SUV’s. It’s a matter of upgrading the power electronics and traction motor. Hopefully they do this as a next step.
Never heard that Caddy’s HAD to be heavier before. Where is the need for that?
2-mode is smoother than Voltec?
Mar 8th, 2010 (6:58 pm)/walks in with a 40, sits next to Zach T and puts feet on table….
My dadyy had a Rambler, dunno who made it but it was an old Rambler…….
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:00 pm)From the article: “One key question is the impact the high pressures and temperatures will have on how long the engine lasts …”
If the answer to that question turns out to be somewhat less than positive, an EREV would still make a perfect home for an engine using this approach — occasional use, and all that. The chief negative for an EREV would be how much cost it adds.
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:00 pm)excuse me sirs but does 2-mode have electric only mode?
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:04 pm)W
what’s an HSD?
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:04 pm)Excuse me?? I hope that you brought enough of that for the *whole class*!
Now, you say that your daddy was an old Rambler? That explains a lot right there… Did you ever meet your mother? (g)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:06 pm)My granddad had one of those bulbous two-toned, tail-finned ’50s Chevrolets. I can still remember asking him if it was a Cadillac (because when it idled, it went “cadillac…cadillac…cadillac…”).
Move over, Cap’n; you’re gonna to spill that $@#% on me.
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:09 pm)“Hybrid Synergy Drive:”
Toyota’s overall name for the technology used in the Prius (analogous to GM’s “Voltec” name for the technology used in the Volt).
Hmm. Maybe what GM needs is a better name for the plug-in version of 2-mode, to help distinguish it from the older, more expensive version.
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:11 pm)The current gm and chrysler 2-modes can travel up to 27 mph in electric only mode. The ford fusion hybrid (a 2-mode with a different name) can trave up to 45 mph using electric only. All with varying limited ranges of approx. 1-3 miles
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:16 pm)I think GM should call it “Hybrid Synergy Drive” (g) (just teasing, john1701a)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:20 pm)Way off topic but too lame to be ignored.
The latest from Washington is to implement a new 18% tax on soft drinks (soda) and pizza as a weapon against obesity.
“…taxing could be used as a weapon in the fight against obesity, which costs the United States an estimated $147 billion a year in health costs.”
Another example of how Government and health care just don’t mix. We’re heading away from the Russian plan en route to the Martian plan with this one. Is this just a bad dream?
Can you image being a fly on the wall at the meeting where this one was thought up?
1>Too many American’s are overweight. This cost millions in health care. We must prevent this. Eating pizza is something that must be contained now.
2>Well, we could make it hurt when people eat pizza. Hit them in the wallet. They’re sure to feel that. A 10% tax?
1>Let’s make it 18%. All in favor. Aye! Opposed?
Okay, let’s take 90 for lunch, see you at 2PM.
=D-Volt
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:20 pm)Crookieda walks in with a pony keg on a dolly. Says” the firs car I remember is my moms white 77 nova with a slant 6, anybody have a tap?!” shakes everyones hand.
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:21 pm)“Hybrid Composite Drive”?
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:21 pm)As long as the focus is on Voltec, BEV and hybrid variants that reduce pollution and dependence on foreign oil.
LRGVProVolt: In your #15, you wrote:
“Please note that it is E-REV! That is an electric – range extended vehicle;…”
my response is sort of quibling about whether something is red or scarlet, but the way GM first defined EREV, it was “extended range electric vehicle”. Follows the usage in BEV, PHEV, REEV, etc
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:22 pm)Interesting question. My study of the plug-in Vue 2-mode design with an 8 Kwh Li-Ion “1/2 Volt battery” convinces me it certainly could have an electric-only mode!
It’s simply a matter of whether designers include a manual override of the ICE (i.e. a “stealth mode”, or whatever they’d call it) AND would design the algorithms (ideally driver selectable) employed by the Control Electronics to allow electric-only operation. Certainly an 8 Kwh battery is adequate to allow electric-only operation. And the two 75 HP electric motors in the FWD 2-mode are fully adequate to propel even fairly large, heavy vehicles up to 70mph for at least 15-20 miles in an electric-only mode.
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:22 pm)Very Freudian. Definitely unresolved Oedipal issues. In fact, you might have set a record… (lol)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:22 pm)I just came back from Toad Hall, 50 red British sports cars. truly a bit of Fourth Dimension Heaven.
So are we really sure that The Volt is not a Two Mode hybrid with different software? I see the Volt as a Cruze with a smooth body, two mode transmission, a fancy display and a big honking battery complements of Uncle Sam.
For the next step, GM could produce the next step from the EV-1, Insight gen1, type of high efficiency, ultimate mpg vehicle. Or a small pickup, I would suggest styled like the SSR, but it really could be like the Terrain. Or they could put Voltec into my favorite, the HHR. Or something similar.
Mr Tads favorite car? A series 2 Lotus 7
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:26 pm)Why not just tax the fat folk….oh sh|t, that’s me.
Or better yet, Tax them, then offer to give them Lipo and use the fat to make fuel and burn it for energy and sell it back to the utilities. That way the fat folk will have to pay twice for it, taxed and pay for electricity.
DOUBLE DIP!!! and SUSTAINABLE!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:31 pm)No sabria que hacer si tuviera que hablar espanol todo del tiempo. Habla usted ingles?
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:32 pm)/looks at Mr. Tag, ….
Mr. Tag, you still got that extra tap I aint returned yet to the liquor sto?
/wipes the spilled Malt Liquor spilled from when Zach T shoved me to move over. Dang man, spillin this is Alcohol Abuse dontchaknow!
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:33 pm)(points) The tap is behind the potted plant.
I’m gonna need a bigger couch.
“NURSE!”
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:34 pm)grassyass.
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:36 pm)Let’s hope for a change in this governmental behavior.
Eat Well, and Believe
ZT
Headed for air raid shelter, have a pleasant evening, all!
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:37 pm)A ‘52 Studabaker Commander, I put it in drive and through the garage door.
/takes another sip, Cheers
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:37 pm)Kathryn Bigelow #77:
So how much have you invested in Tesla, or is it Nissan?
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:41 pm)Got room for me????
This is going downhill QUICK like! (on SOOO many levels!(lol)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:44 pm)lol…..
Aw maaaaannnn….
It could get really downhill from here.
/get’s the wad of single bills out…….
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:48 pm)So I went to YouTube and typed in
“Why I want a Chevy Volt”
There is either something I am doing wrong, or I am the only one entered in the video portion of the contest. I would be truly miffed if I came in second.
Cheers
LJGTRVWOTR!! NPNS! NMST!
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:48 pm)Not to worry about the $1’s – we’ll bill your insurance.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:48 pm)My first car was a hand-me-down 64′ Studebaker Challenger V8 305. My second car, a Toyota Corolla.
=D-Volt
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:50 pm)crookieda walks out to malivolt comes back in with 2 law-chairs, says “It’s ok you don’t need new couches, there is a law in Illinois that states it’s illiegal to transport any keg without at least 2 lawn chairs to keep it company in the trunk.” passes out plastic cups. “the army says always be prepared! Or was that the scouts?”
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:52 pm)I can just see the GM marketing guy reading this and scratching names off his list (lol).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:54 pm)I woulda brought a pony keg but it wouldn’t fit on my 10speed.
/takes a swig at a 40………NURSE!
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:54 pm)StevePA, After going back and rereading comments later in the previous thread, I’m quite sure that Kathryn qualifies for PDNFTT treatment. BTW, many very normal posts started getting negative votes late in the thread as well. I think *they* are “feeding” by using that mechanism.
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:56 pm)hey, where be carcus1, he should be in therapy too.
/puts empty 40 down, grabs a cup and pumps the tap…..
Mar 8th, 2010 (7:57 pm)Woo-hoo now this is a party!! I’ve got tri-care prime, start the music
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:00 pm)Huh, I thought that that was a Federal law. Works in PA too.
Anyone remember what the thread was about?
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-1
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:04 pm)Yep, I think that all of that is accurate.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-1
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:04 pm)Links promised for articles in the Sunday Detroit Free Press (www.freep.com)
Toyota obfuscation: http://www.freep.com/article/20100307/COL06/3070535/1002/business/Toyota-charts-upset-rivals?GID=OA53upzyXk6K+QKnTGK+IO9gTxebQomVSzo3hs9v8yA%3D
Opel and GM are made for each other: http://www.freep.com/article/20100307/BUSINESS01/3070480/1002/business/Opel-Chevrolet-complementary-brands-as-GM-competes-globally
Also:
http://www.freep.com/article/20100307/BUSINESS01/3070481/1002/business/GM-to-pay-more-to-Opel
Also:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100307/COL14/3070461/1002/business&template=fullarticle
Battery developer CPI:
http://www.freep.com/article/20100307/BUSINESS01/3070442/1002/business/Battery-developer-is-well-connected
I could not find the Carlos Gosn quote in the electronic version of the paper, sorry. But again the quote is “In 2011, I’m going to be the only one on the market.” speaking of the Leaf at the Geneva auto show.
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:07 pm)Well I’m a Type II diabetic, and I can tell you from bitter experience that that kid with the Coke and pizza is setting himself up for MAJOR health issues down the road.
I read somewhere that if the Body Mass Index of everybody in the U.S. could be reduced to the ideal, we could reduce the fuel consumption of our transportation vehicles enough to damn near get off of foreign oil imports, LOL. We are hauling thousands of tons of useless fat up and down the highways and byways every day. True fact.
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:08 pm)This thread asks the question: Should GM keep building larger vehicles that burn liquid fuel on a regular basis? Or shift to the manufacture of vehicles that burn little or no gasoline?
Anyone vote for gasoline burners?
Didn’t think so.
Does GM realize this? Hard to tell at times.
=D-Volt
Off to a Little League meeting. A good evening to all.
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:09 pm)What is going to happen to Voltec?
/takes “sip” knowing GM engineers may be listening.
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:11 pm)Lol now this is health care reform I can believe in!! Zach come out of the bomb shelter, the party is in Tags office
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:12 pm)#151
Or wondering how he can get invited to the party at the next Volt Nation get together, hahaha. Anyway, it’s still way better than some of our past political tempests in teapots, IMHO. BTW, they seem to have died down a bit lately, probably as a result of your calming influence. Thanks God. This is kind of fun, actually.
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:14 pm)#153
My sentiments exactly. +1
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:15 pm)hi NP #159 …
I stand 6′ 1″ and weigh 185lbs. In very good shape. Take no meds. I eat pizza and drink soda (although not often). I counter this with several trips to the gym each week. And stair climbing and walking even when it’s convenient not to.
Drinking beer often results in being overweight and causing driving fatalities. Should we ban beer? It’s not a question if Pizza is unhealthy or not. It’s a question of government control and stealing money from tax payers. America just went through the biggest pork job in history with TARP. Government still wants more power.
=D-Volt
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:18 pm)I then became involved with British sports cars, lots of them. Painted most of them red too.
/Tag, is this normal?
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:18 pm)#158
A true leap of faith by Mr. G., IMHO. I truly hope that it works out for him, but I don’t think that the range anxiety issue is going away any time soon, trolls or no.
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:21 pm)Here you go:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7e02520a-26df-11df-8c08-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:30 pm)This is why I like this site so much. Good car talk with good intilegent people (trolls excluded) and lots of fun.
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:30 pm)Well, I *have* noticed a bit of a pattern with you and the color red….
Be better,
Tagamet
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:41 pm)I don’t understand why the “2-mode” drive is so expensive. It seems like it should be inherently cheaper than the Voltec system. It (2-mode) is basically between a manual transmission and an automatic transmission with two electric motors built in. It “looks” (to me at least) that the electric motors are too small to act as traction motors (only useful for “variable ratio transmission” effect?). Is it possible that the three OEM’s that participated in the development entered into an agreement that is very costly to GM on a per unit basis? Seems like we need some inside knowledge (and not just engineering).
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:45 pm)#104, my #171 is almost the same as 104, sorry for the redundancy, but maybe that just underscores the confusion. Why is the 2-mode so problematic?
+2
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:45 pm)Aren’t British sports cars supposed to be painted British Racing Green?