Mar 07

Study Questions Importance of Range Anxiety to EV Drivers

 

[ad#post_ad]GM has placed a one billion dollar bet that range anxiety is important. The Chevy Volt was designed and engineered to allow drivers to do most of their daily driving on electricity but to have the option to keep going on gas when the battery is depleted.  This strategy eliminates any fear of being stranded by a dead battery.

This approach stands in contrast to that of pure electric cars which will stop going when their batteries die.

A study released by the University of California Davis suggests that range anxiety isn’t as important to a cohort of people currently driving electric cars.  The study surveyed 150 MINI E drivers and found the majority of them believed their needs were satisfied with the car’s 80 to 100 mile effective range.  It also showed they were completely satisfied by home charging and did not need to use public charging, suggesting that an extensive public charging network may not be needed to encourage EV adoption.

The director of automotive research at Frost and Sullivan, looking at a wider audience, found that range anxiety was actually more important than it was for this MINI E sub-group.

“There is real range anxiety, and people are concerned about being stranded,” Veerender Kaul told msbnc. “We found a strong preference for a plug-in, range-extended electric vehicle like the Chevrolet Volt.”

I have personally logged over 10,000 miles in my MINI-E, and did not participate in the UC study. My daily commute is 60 miles round trip, and at least twice per month I have to drive round trip greater than 100 miles.  In the cold weather my range is closer to 60 miles, as I drive almost all highway at more than 65 mph, which demands a lot of power.  As such, I rely on charging during the day at work to eliminate range anxiety, and cannot use the car for long drives  instead using a second gas-powered car for those occasions.

The participants chosen for the UC study appear to be a very selected group who are  likely to overlook any inconvenience in exchange for the cause of driving petroleum-free at all times.

To reach a mass audience appeal, however, range anxiety must be controlled.  The Volt is the perfect solution.

Source (msnbc)
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This entry was posted on Sunday, March 7th, 2010 at 7:11 am and is filed under BEV, Research. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 162


  1. 1
    Schmeltz

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (7:26 am)

    If imitation is the greatest form of flattery, a number of other car companies are also adopting the EREV concept for their future platforms as well. If there was a naitonal public charging infrastructure available, that would be one thing, but there’s not at the moment. The Volt best and most pragmatically handles the issue of running out of electric in your EV.

    Side: They should have polled you Lyle!


  2. 2
    drivin98

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (7:27 am)

    “The Volt is the perfect solution.”

    It is a good solution but no vehicle is perfect. I’m looking forward to hearing more about the all-electric version of the Volt.

    The study does raise an interesting point and it’s something that I’ve heard many long-time electric car owners say: they don’t really use charging stations. Oh, sometimes they’ll pull up and plug in just because they can but from what I’ve heard, they seem to be needed more to reassure future owners rather than current owners.

    I do, though, think fast chargers in Interstate rest areas would be pretty dang handy.


  3. 3
    Ted in Fort Myers

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (7:28 am)

    Range anxiety is a problem for those who have trouble planning. I still hope at some point that the Volt EV is introduced with 100 miles of range. I would drive one witout question. In the meantime, I would love to have a Volt Extrended Range electric vehicle for my primary car and the Volt BEV for my second car. YES GM I would love to be a beta Tester.

    Take Care,
    TED


  4. 4
    Dave G

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (7:44 am)

    I think range anxiety is just the tip of the iceberg.

    What if I forget to plug in one night? This will happen. If I remember correctly, Lyle has already had this experience. It happens to the best of us. Many compare this to running out of gas, but that’s apples and oranges. With my typical state of mind as I arrive home, forgetting to plug in will be much more common. I don’t think I’m alone here. Add the fact that you have to plug in 10 times more often than filling up on gas, and its bound to occur.

    And what if there’s a power failure?

    Many BEV proponents say they will use their other family for these occasions. So what if your wife happens to have your other car when you go to leave? What if she needs the car?

    So then some people propose owning a whole separate gas engine car just in case. I guess that works if you can afford it, but it’s not for the masses. An EREV is much more affordable.

    And then there’s the “I’ll rent a car for longer trips” line. This assumes you always know when you’ll need to drive over your range. Life doesn’t always go according to plan.

    And then there’s the engineers who love the simplicity of a pure BEV design, and say BEVs will be cheaper for this reason. But the reality is that most buyers would compare a BEV-100 to an EREV-40, so the larger battery in the BEV ends up making it cost more.

    And then there’s the issues of BEVs in cold weather, which EREVs solve by warming the battery for a few minutes using power from the gas engine.

    As EREVs progress and get longer range, the gas engine will be used less and less, and it will probably use cellulosic ethanol when it does run, so the EREV will be petroleum free as well.


  5. 5
    Paul Bennett

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (7:55 am)

    I’d also love to be a beta tester of the GM extended range EV. Sydney, Australia doesn’t have public charging infrastructure, so i guess i’d have to recharge at home.


  6. 6
    Loboc

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:10 am)

    I am thinking more like Ted above.

    I need two cars. Having one EREV and one BEV would work perfectly in my situation.

    Now if the EREV were a pickup….

    Volt weighs 3900lbs, my Dakota 4-door, 6-passenger pickup weighs 4027. I totally cannot see why taking out the V8 and 5-speed and replacing with a Voltec platform wouldn’t work. Yeah, the CD is like a brick, but, most of my driving is under 35mph running empty. Make the generator run on demand with V2H and I’m a very happy camper.


  7. 7
    Herm

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:12 am)

    Dave G: What if I forget to plug in one night? This will happen.

    Wireless power recharging is your solution Dave.. you cant forget to plug it in.


  8. 8
    koz

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:15 am)

    Production at last, production at last. Thank God almighty, production at last.

    The Leaf (and IMEV) and Volt will be in the showrooms soon enough. We will know the real prices, real ranges, and real CS mode mileage soon enough. No more ASSumptions presented as fact. As long as production rates are high enough (no the EV1, RAV4, etc production charades of yesteryear don’t count), we will be able to analyze real world results. My prediction is that just as so many have showed here with so much conviction, there will be buyers for both.

    “GM has placed a one billion dollar bet that range anxiety is important.” – Lyle

    I disagree in that GM’s bet is on electrification. If (or when IMO) both approaches prove to be successful, GM could fairly easily and quickly offer a very capable BEV via the Volt.

    Go EREV, go BEV. We will be free to choose at loooong last.


  9. 9
    koz

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:17 am)

    Herm: Wireless power recharging is your solution Dave.. you cant forget to plug it in.  (Quote)

    I was thinking there will be an “app for that” so it won’t be an issue for wired either.


  10. 10
    Peder Norby

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:23 am)

    Geetings from Mini-E 183.

    When I entered the pilot program, I did so as an EV and solar enthusiast who could afford the $850 a month payment. My expectation was that the car would be at times impractical and that I would have range anxiety. To combat this I kept my 2005 G35 as a back up and long range driver. I also searched the internet for resources and public charging. After 1 month with the car, range anxiety, reliability and public charging were a non issue. I sold the G35.

    I looked at it as a year long $10,000 adventure in the wild new world of electrics, a beta tester to work out all the bugs and glitches. The reality is the car is entirely normal, dependable and practical albeit with just two seats.

    I’m at 12,000 miles, just over 8 months and have never used the mobile cord for charging. It’s still in the plastic case. On the west coast with more mild winters, 90-100 miles is no problem. BMW has announced that it will have liquid thermal management in it’s next electric car the Active E similar to the Volt. This will help greatly in the colder climates and will be a big improvement over the Mini-E mule.

    Lyle is right about his need for a EREV and I am right about my need for a BEV. For me it is impractical to pay for the complexities of an EREVand haul around a gas generator and a fuel tank for no reason. For Lyle the EREV is a better choice as the BEV does not do everything he needs it to do.

    Your lifestyle, commute, access to another car, and other factors will determine what’s right for you. Both answers are right and one is not better than the other.

    My guess is that the BEV like the Mini-E will be good for 50% or more of the population. The ideal candidate for a BEV is a driver in a two car family that has a commute less than 75 miles round trip. It will work for single city dwellers with short commutes as well as other groups of drivers.

    That is our situation, my wife, an elementary school principal, drives a Ford Escape and I drive a Mini-E. My commute is 30 miles round trip with a 80 mile round trip once a week. Her commute is 50 miles round trip and she enjoys driving the Mini-E as well.
    We travel about three times a year and one of those times is a road trip where we take the Escape.

    I’m looking forward to the many choices ahead of us for the BEV’s and for our family one of our cars will always be a BEV. Get that Voltec drive train in a small SUV and I’ll have an EREV in the garage as well.


  11. 11
    koz

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:38 am)

    Peder Norby: That is our situation, my wife, an elementary school principal, drives a Ford Escape and I drive a Mini-E. My commute is 30 miles round trip with a 80 mile round trip once a week. Her commute is 50 miles round trip and she enjoys driving the Mini-E as well.
    We travel about three times a year and one of those times is a road trip where we take the Escape.
    I’m looking forward to the many choices ahead of us for the BEV’s and for our family one of our cars will always be a BEV. Get that Voltec drive train in a small SUV and I’ll have an EREV in the garage as well.

    I think your situation and ones similar are pretty common. GM can sell one car or two to this group, their (GM’s) choice.


  12. 12
    BillR

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:40 am)

    Dave G:
    And what if there’s a power failure?
    .  

    Last week I was without power for 3 days, as were many others in the Northeast, especially those living outside the cities. It made me realize how limited you are when you have no choices (just like having a conventional car, you are dependent upon the oil companies).

    E-REV gives me choices. If I don’t like the gas prices, I can use electricity. If the Utility puts in for big rate increases and gas prices drop, I can use gas.

    Until there are more long term, stable energy prices, we need to be able to exercise our options.


  13. 13
    nasaman

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:43 am)

    Lyle’s conclusion from his Intro above —and his personal experience driving a BEV >10,000 miles— is my belief exactly…

    “The participants chosen for the UC study appear to be a very selected group who are likely to overlook any inconvenience in exchange for the cause of driving petroleum-free at all times.

    To reach a mass audience appeal, however, range anxiety must be controlled. The Volt is the perfect solution.”

    In addition, having the redundancy of TWO independent power (“fuel”) sources available at all times, which virtually eliminates the likelihood of every being stranded or needing to be towed, is well worth the added cost & complexity of the EREV architecture!


  14. 14
    Bruce

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:45 am)

    Another money wasting study. Won’t it be nice when there’s enough of them out there to answer questions like this? Get Volt on the highways!


  15. 15
    BillR

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:49 am)

    Although GM has bet $1 billion on E-REV, the Energy Information Administration (a division of the DOE), projects that even by 2035, plug-in vehicles will only represent ~2% of new car sales.

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp


  16. 16
    Sharon

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:00 am)

    Hello. I’m new to the gm-volt site and first want to thank all of you for your informative articles and posts. I live in the San Francisco Bay area and hope to be driving a Volt as soon as they’re available. Here’s my comment…. it never ceases to amaze me that someone would pay for a study such as the one that’s the subject of this article. Would it really surprise anyone that a self-selected group of 150 new-technology adopters would be satisfied with their beta cars :-) And that others might not feel quite as comfortable with a limited driving range?

    Anyway, it made me smile.


  17. 17
    Brett Pavel

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    Brett Pavel
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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:07 am)

    I just have a hard time swallowing such a small percentage of range anxiety. I had an all electric
    Fiat Strada for many years in the 90′s, and while I am a total tech nerd I couldn’t get my family
    to stop stressing anytime we drove anywhere close to 50% of the expected range. I truly believe VOLT has the right formula, and at least my wife would consider driving one.


  18. 18
    Dr.Science

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:10 am)

    Until battery science reaches the point where a 400-500 mile charge range is attainable, the range extending on board ICE seems the best option. Nobody was quick to sell their horses either after the first automobiles we introduced.


  19. 19
    Richard Romshe

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:13 am)

    This is typical of someone who lives next door to where they work, we want an electric car that will take us across the country on trips to view the sights with a range of 600 miles. Lets let the Volt come out and cover itself, it is going to do great.


  20. 20
    Exp_EngTech

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:13 am)

    BEV’s will always be mainly a “commute to work” car for a lot of people, but not everybody. Yes, some people need to be able to drive a couple hundred miles in a single day (sales people). A BEV is not for them. I really don’t think they should be looking at a Volt.

    As for myself, the THINK City would work for me right now. Only a small stetch of my commute is on a section of road with a 55 MPH speed limit. With a 100+ mile range, it would easily meet my current daily work commute needs (36 miles roundtrip) with plenty left for shopping detours on the way home. For those odd trips needed to haul stuff / go hundreds of miles, I’ve got an extended cab truck with a 4 cylinder. I plan on keeping it (or an equivalent) for a very long time.

    FYI….the THINK battery pack that EnerDel engineered is designed from the cell level up to accomodate that recent TEPCO standard (15 minute quick charge to 80% SOC). This “LEVEL 3″ standard is DC / High Current, whereas the LEVEL 1 (110v) and Level 2 (220v) are AC to make use of the in vehicle charging inverter.

    TEPCO LEVEL 3 Specs…
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/akerwade-20100115.html

    THINK City and LEVEL 3
    http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/26/dc-2010-think-says-15-minutes-is-just-right-for-fast-charging/

    I assume THINK will put a LEVEL 3 Quick Charge connector on the right hand side of the car when they start building them in Elkhart, Indiana (less than 10 miles from me). I believe I’ve read that the US built Think City will have a more powerfull motor, capable of a higher top speed.

    On LEVEL 3, you can think of it as something similar to those electric forklift charging stations used in wareouses. Why only charge to 80% you say? It all about avoiding that normal “burst of heat” as any charging cell approaches a full charge. Note: The Nissan LEAF has a LEVEL 3 connector under that charging door. I think it’s the left connector in the videos I’ve watched.

    Over the years, I think you’ll see LEVEL 3 Quick Chargers begin to appear at gas stations in the US. It will be off to the side sort of like the coin operated air pumps for your tires. Think “Swipe & Charge”.


  21. 21
    Jason M. Hendler

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:29 am)

    There re many reasons to create an EREV config:

    1) utility – many people need / want a vehicle that has unlimited range
    2) cost – a full range EV is at least $15K more expensive than an EREV
    3) product planning – an EREV is a step towards a plug in fuel cell vehicle


  22. 22
    storm

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:29 am)

    It is still amazing to me that people project having their EV towed when the battery runs down. Guys, the battery isn’t like gasoline. You get a fair warning that it is running low. Electric outlets are everywhere. Be a little creative. Carry a long extension cord.


  23. 23
    Shaft

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:29 am)

    Dave G: I think range anxiety is just the tip of the iceberg.What if I forget to plug in one night? This will happen. If I remember correctly, Lyle has already had this experience. It happens to the best of us. Many compare this to running out of gas, but that’s apples and oranges. With my typical state of mind as I arrive home, forgetting to plug in will be much more common. I don’t think I’m alone here. Add the fact that you have to plug in 10 times more often than filling up on gas, and its bound to occur.And what if there’s a power failure?Many BEV proponents say they will use their other family for these occasions. So what if your wife happens to have your other car when you go to leave? What if she needs the car?So then some people propose owning a whole separate gas engine car just in case. I guess that works if you can afford it, but it’s not for the masses. An EREV is much more affordable.And then there’s the “I’ll rent a car for longer trips” line. This assumes you always know when you’ll need to drive over your range. Life doesn’t always go according to plan. And then there’s the engineers who love the simplicity of a pure BEV design, and say BEVs will be cheaper for this reason. But the reality is that most buyers would compare a BEV-100 to an EREV-40, so the larger battery in the BEV ends up making it cost more.And then there’s the issues of BEVs in cold weather, which EREVs solve by warming the battery for a few minutes using power from the gas engine.As EREVs progress and get longer range, the gas engine will be used less and less, and it will probably use cellulosic ethanol when it does run, so the EREV will be petroleum free as well.  (Quote)

    Have to say, Dave, you’ve nailed it. Well thought out!


  24. 24
    JohnK

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:38 am)

    koz: I think your situation and ones similar are pretty common. GM can sell one car or two to this group, their (GM’s) choice.

    I think that at some point, sooner or later, it would make sense to have a genset on a trailer. That would allow a two BEV household, with range anxiety under control. It would allow cross country trips also. Still, even in that situation the Volt “convenience factor” is hard to ignore.


  25. 25
    JohnK

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:54 am)

    Folks, again I’d say that even though most of us are biased to the Volt we seem to have a pretty balanced point of view. I can see down the road having a modular arrangement. A minimal battery size for say 40-50 miles AER, but with the range extender either removable or on a trailer. Nice to have add in batteries for ranges of say 100, 200, or more. Choices of range extenders. Not sure that hydrogen fuel cells make sense, but if you have to have a bomb to power your vehicle, maybe having it in a trailer is better. That would allow for a bigger tank too.


  26. 26
    pjkPA

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (10:01 am)

    There is a reason that so many other car companies are interested in the Volt technology… and there is a reason so many people are interested in the Chevy Volt…. the extended range is one of the main reasons. For me… my commute is less than 20 miles… as is most of the people near cities in PA. The really good thing about the Volt is that you can install all kinds of extended range sources…. fuel cell… deisel… natural gas… etc. I wouldn’t mind a small fuel cell myself. How about a fuel cell that costs the same as the ICE engine…even if it only would get the range to 150 or 200 miles…. run by maybe propane that you can get everywhere. And the other really easy option for the Volt is just leave out the ICE … the cost would come down and the range would go up because of the weight loss. It’s the TECHNOLOGY that really is flexible. GM is people… we can thank all the good people of GM for this excitement.


  27. 27
    jonboinAR

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (10:04 am)

    BillR: Although GM has bet $1 billion on E-REV, the Energy Information Administration (a division of the DOE), projects that even by 2035, plug-in vehicles will only represent ~2% of new car sales.http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp  (Quote)

    Meaningless, totally. Who the bloody heck has any reasonable idea what will be going on technology/consumer-wise in 2035? In the nearer future, all-electric or partially-electric cars may take off like gangbusters, or not.


  28. 28
    zipdrive

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (10:36 am)

    Excellent post. The article answers the question it poses about range anxiety.

    Many people on this site have been saying this all along and this just confirms the position.

    It is a matter of LIFESTYLE. You cannot force any great lifestyle change down people’s throats.

    The Chevy Volt is a game-changing vehicle because it DOES NOT require any big lifestyle change, but it GREATLY improves the efficiency of our favorite mode of transportation in America.

    Range anxiety is a HUGE issue. The Chevy Volt solves this problem brilliantly.


  29. 29
    Bruce

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (10:56 am)

    Range anxiety is a given, when all car buyers are pooled together. Why not build a car that 100% of drivers can use to do whatever they have to do? But 75% of those people can, with a little planning, control their addiction to gasoline.


  30. 30
    joe

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:02 am)

    I’ve learned through the years to just ignore some of those studies. Many studies results are obviously dumb.
    The group of people this study came from was derived from people who already owns a second cars. GM is not focusing on that group of people to sell the Volt. GM”s focus is on the general public as a one car and not as a second car ownership.


  31. 31
    Frank D

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:06 am)

    The Voltec platform is the perfect “transitional” technology, until battery technology advances to the point that “range anxiety” is no longer an issue.


  32. 32
    Luis

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:16 am)

    About forgetting to charge the EV at night ……. It could happen, may be once. A few years back my wife forgot to plug her Ice Cream truck at the end of the day and all the ice cream in the freezer melted and had to be replaced ……… She hasn’t forgotten ever, ever again!!!!!

    Luis


  33. 33
    jeffhre

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:26 am)

    Dave G: I think range anxiety is just the tip of the iceberg.
    What if I forget to plug in one night? This will happen. If I remember correctly, Lyle has already had this experience. It happens to the best of us. Many compare this to running out of gas, but that’s apples and oranges. With my typical state of mind as I arrive home, forgetting to plug in will be much more common. I don’t think I’m alone here. Add the fact that you have to plug in 10 times more often than filling up on gas, and its bound to occur.
    And what if there’s a power failure?
    Many BEV proponents say they will use their other family for these occasions. So what if your wife happens to have your other car when you go to leave? What if she needs the car?
    So then some people propose owning a whole separate gas engine car just in case. I guess that works if you can afford it, but it’s not for the masses. An EREV is much more affordable.
    And then there’s the “I’ll rent a car for longer trips” line. This assumes you always know when you’ll need to drive over your range. Life doesn’t always go according to plan.
    And then there’s the engineers who love the simplicity of a pure BEV design, and say BEVs will be cheaper for this reason. But the reality is that most buyers would compare a BEV-100 to an EREV-40, so the larger battery in the BEV ends up making it cost more.
    And then there’s the issues of BEVs in cold weather, which EREVs solve by warming the battery for a few minutes using power from the gas engine.
    As EREVs progress and get longer range, the gas engine will be used less and less, and it will probably use cellulosic ethanol when it does run, so the EREV will be petroleum free as well.

    If Tag is not too busy, he can help folks with a panoply of anxieties, in the mean time happy motoring.


  34. 34
    GXT

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:32 am)

    Loboc: I am thinking more like Ted above. I need two cars. Having one EREV and one BEV would work perfectly in my situation.(Quote)

    Buying an EREV and a BEV make no sense to me. Assuming you drive the BEV as your daily car and the second car only when you go on the odd long trip, why would you pay $40,000 for a car you will only use perhaps a couple of dozen times per year… and when you are using it it will largely be on gas anyways? A $15,000 car will perform as well as the Volt in this role.


  35. 35
    DonC

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:46 am)

    My guess is that a lot of people who don’t think they could get by with a 100 mile range EV could. However, first they’d have to make a leap of faith to get one to find out. Second is that a BEV won’t work for many people who occasionally need to go further.

    Room for both. At a similar price point or a 10% premium the EREV would outsell the BEV 10:1.


  36. 36
    GXT

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:47 am)

    According to GM, Lyle’s example is the exception.

    GM tells us that almost 80% of the US commutes less than 40 miles per day. So Lyle’s 60 mile commute is BY FAR the exception. And even so, it is only in the cold weather with a hacked together EV when he isn’t able to charge at work and needs to go on his one or two monthly exceptionally long commutes that range begins to become an issue.

    Add to that that the US probably has some of the longest commutes in the world and you begin to see how small a problem this really is for the vast majority of people.


  37. 37
    Dave K.

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:53 am)

    The limited range battery only car works fine for the people who buy it for what it is, “limited”. Does this work for me? Not really. My wife wouldn’t authorize spending $25k for it either. She needs a car that is always ready and able to go anywhere anytime.

    =D-Volt


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    EVNow

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:04 pm)

    Couple things about Lyle’s situation on comments.

    With very large & high speed commutes, Volt would be good for Lyle. Not perfect, mind you. For him, an EREV with 60 mile range would be perfect.

    Second, various comments by Lyle about Mini-E shows why it is very important to have a good NDA with leasing such vehicles ;-)


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:08 pm)

    I like the volt, but isn’t it really an Audi E-tron on steroids? An Unnecessarily muscular Electric car. And wouldn’t the Audi e-tron be a better fit for you, with the 30 mi. all-electric range and a small range enhancer for those 100mi. plus excursions? . I know I’m changing the subject, Really enjoyed that article and those comments on March 3 regarding an “Augmented Range EV”. Thanks

    coupla excerpts from Audi article-

    It contains a “T-shaped” 12 kwh lithium ion battery pack that contains enough energy for 31 miles of all electric range. After that, an on-board range extender kicks in to produce electricity for continued driving.

    Audi is using a very small 254 cc single rotor Wankel engine for electricity production


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    GXT

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:13 pm)

    Frank D: The Voltec platform is the perfect “transitional” technology, until battery technology advances to the point that “range anxiety” is no longer an issue.  

    It is a technology, but it isn’t the “perfect” technology.

    There is a vehicle that has been available for years in advance of the Volt, is widely available (volume + markets), has no range anxiety, uses a battery that is only 4% (!) of the size of the Volt’s, costs approx. half as much as the Volt yet is profitable and doesn’t require government subsidies, allows the driver to use the heat without affecting range/fuel economy, most likely has better than Volt MPG when the driver has to go more than the ~32 mile electric range of the Volt and only requires ~.75 gallon to cover those ~32 miles (assuming you even drive 32 miles per day, which the majority don’t), has no need to plug-in, etc.

    It isn’t perfect and there are some ways that the Volt is better, but at the same time it does have many advantages over the Volt.

    I know some partisans have made “Hybrid” is dirty word around here, but they are a very valid alternative to the also imperfect Volt. There is no doubt (ask GM/Cadillac if you doubt) that the hybrid will continue to be the mainstream transitional technology.

    (I write of the Insight, not the Prius.)


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    bintoo

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:13 pm)

    Give someone $3 gallons of gas in their tank and ask them to put their family in the car and then go for a drive. Then tell them where they are going there are no gas stations anywhere. When they get back, if they even go in the first place, ask how many of them were worried about running out of gas and having their family stranded on the side of the road. Then do it again in winter, in an unsafe part of town, at night. Do you see where I’m going with this. Lots of people are willing to take a risk if it’s just themselves, add the spouse and a couple of kids and it changes everything. EREV is your only choice. That doesn’t mean it has to be a gas engine forever. A gas engine makes perfect sence right now. Tomorrow it may be a backup fuel cell.


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    Constantin

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:17 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:27 pm)

    Jason M. Hendler: There re many reasons to create an EREV config:
    1) utility – many people need / want a vehicle that has unlimited range
    2) cost – a full range EV is at least $15K more expensive than an EREV
    3) product planning – an EREV is a step towards a plug in fuel cell vehicle  

    4) higher resale value. EREV’s cover all driver needs; BEVs do not
    5) lower battery replacement cost

    The only ‘truth’ the Davis study may have uncovered is that BEV owners don’t tend to use public charging stations, which brings to question their need. Thinking about it, it makes sense….. the most likely places where one’s car would be left sitting for more than three hours would be at home and maybe at work.


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    Peder Norby

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:33 pm)

    Bruce: Why not build a car that 100% of drivers can use to do whatever they have to do?

    Like a two seat sports car, or a 3/4 ton truck, or a mini van, or a five passenger sedan, or an econobox, or a hybrid, or a….

    No car on no platform is going to be right for 100% of the people. Choices are what folks want depending on their situation. Choices are great!

    Now we have EREV and BEV to add to the mix of choices.

    With EREV and BEV you also have choices regarding the production of the electricity that powers the car.

    With gas car your choice is OPEC

    Cheers
    peder


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    zipdrive

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:38 pm)

    Excellent post. The article answers the question it poses about range anxiety.

    Many people on this site have been saying this all along and this just confirms the position.

    It is a matter of LIFESTYLE. You cannot force any great lifestyle change down people’s throats.

    Americans like to drive whenever they want, wherever they want, without restriction.

    The Chevy Volt is a game-changing vehicle because it DOES NOT require any big lifestyle change, but it GREATLY improves the efficiency of our favorite mode of transportation in America.

    Range – and range anxiety – are HUGE issues. The Chevy Volt solves these problems brilliantly.


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    LRGVProVolt

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:44 pm)

    #8 koz: I disagree in that GM’s bet is on electrification. If (or when IMO) both approaches prove to be successful, GM could fairly easily and quickly offer a very capable BEV via the Volt.

    Koz,

    As many here know, I have long said that the destiny of the Volt is, “To become a BEV.” GM has used the current level of technology to bring us a vehicle that is not limited by how far it can go on a single charge. In the same breath, you say that GM’s bet is not on electrification and also that their choice to build the Volt, an EREV. was right because it can build a BEV as a result of the Volt. Is there something you left out of your statement that would make it more understandable?

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:46 pm)

    I agree with a number of points made already including that early adopters are willing to put up with all kinds challenges that don’t quite make sense to those who are not: adapting travel plans to the cars electric range, cost, etc.

    The study, albeit to a select group points to this fear factor that’s typical with new technologies ie: steam locomotives will scare farm animals and chickens won’t lay eggs and cows will stop giving milk!

    Like others, I can’t wait to see how all this shakes out over the next few years when these vehicles get on the road in greater and greater numbers.


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    EVNow

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:51 pm)

    GXT: According to GM, Lyle’s example is the exception.GM tells us that almost 80% of the US commutes less than 40 miles per day. So Lyle’s 60 mile commute is BY FAR the exception. And even so, it is only in the cold weather with a hacked together EV when he isn’t able to charge at work and needs to go on his one or two monthly exceptionally long commutes that range begins to become an issue.

    +1

    Very good point. I don’t see why 80% of commuters should buy something that just a few actually need, esp. if they already own multiple ICE cars.


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    nuclearboy

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:54 pm)

    Peder Norby: My guess is that the BEV like the Mini-E will be good for 50% or more of the population. The ideal candidate for a BEV is a driver in a two car family that has a commute less than 75 miles round trip. It will work for single city dwellers with short commutes as well as other groups of drivers.

    It may be “good” for 50% of the population but they won’t want it. BEVs will less than 100 mile range are a real burden for the majority of people. Most people don’t want to pay for a car that has these severe limitations. These cars force you to plan your life around your range instead of having the car be ready to support your life as you live it.

    The Mini-E driver group is a special group of early adopters and it is no surprise that they have overcome the range anxiety. These types of people will help push electric cars forward. However, mass adoption of EVs will not be possible with the limited range of today’s batteries (IMO).


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:54 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    Koz,As many here know, I have long said that the destiny of the Volt is, “To become a BEV.” GM has used the current level of technology to bring us a vehicle that is not limited by how far it can go on a single charge. In the same breath, you say that GM’s bet is not on electrification and also that their choice to build the Volt, an EREV. was right because it can build a BEV as a result ofthe Volt. Is there something you left out of your statement that would make it more understandable?Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    Sorry Koz. After I was checking my statement for final submission in the edit mode I realized that I missed one word in your statement that makes my final comment wrong. Before I could finish changing it, time ran out. :( Please except my oppology!

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (12:55 pm)

    Sharon: Hello.I’m new to the gm-volt site and first want to thank all of you for your informative articles and posts.I live in the San Francisco Bay area and hope to be driving a Volt as soon as they’re available.Here’s my comment…. it never ceases to amaze me that someone would pay for a study such as the one that’s the subject of this article.Would it really surprise anyone that a self-selected group of 150 new-technology adopters would be satisfied with their beta cars And that others might not feel quite as comfortable with a limited driving range?Anyway, it made me smile.  

    Welcome and congrats! Your post has the distinction of turning green (reflecting the group’s positive opinion re your post)!
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    jeffhre:
    If Tag is not too busy, he can help folks with a panoply of anxieties, in the mean time happy motoring.  

    It’s not so much a matter of available time, as it is a knowledge of the limits of my abilities (and I’m really, really good)! LOL
    (I posted this reply earlier, but it must have been lost in the ethers)
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (1:11 pm)

    #9 koz:
    I was thinking there will be an “app for that” so it won’t be an issue for wired either.  

    In my comment where I misread your earlier post, I was editing my comment before the time ran out, and planned on mentioning how different GM’s BEV would be compaired to the Volt. Inductive charging as Herm and you mention could be incorporated into the vehicle so we would only need to pull into our garage or the charging station to recharge the battery without needing to plug in. That would be a real game changer, IMHO.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Tagamet

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (1:13 pm)

    jonboinAR: BillR: Although GM has bet $1 billion on E-REV, the Energy Information Administration (a division of the DOE), projects that even by 2035, plug-in vehicles will only represent ~2% of new car sales.http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp (Quote)

    jonboinAR: Meaningless, totally. Who the bloody heck has any reasonable idea what will be going on technology/consumer-wise in 2035? In the nearer future, all-electric or partially-electric cars may take off like gangbusters, or not.

    Although it’s obvious that no one KNOWS what the future will bring, isn’t it better to have people reporting what the current data *suggests*? It’s done all the time. It just makes sense to make data based decisions and then adjust as the data changes (which it will).
    JMO.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (1:16 pm)

    Range Anxiety is a big deal for me – I live in a small town with a fair distance to go to any larfgwe centre.

    I’d need a range of considerably better than 500 mi AER or a guarantee that every “filling station” can recharge me in less than 10 minutes before I’d consider a pure BEV


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (1:16 pm)

    zipdrive: Excellent post.The article answers the question it poses about range anxiety.Many people on this site have been saying this all along and this just confirms the position.It is a matter of LIFESTYLE.You cannot force any great lifestyle change down people’s throats.The Chevy Volt is a game-changing vehicle because it DOES NOT require any big lifestyle change, but it GREATLY improves the efficiency of our favorite mode of transportation in America.Range anxiety is a HUGE issue.The Chevy Volt solves this problem brilliantly.  

    Well said. +1. I’d sprinkle in the word “options” a few times (as in it’s great to have them).
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (1:21 pm)

    Such studies only seem to look at “city folk.” While it is obvious that city dwellers are the biggest market, it gets discouraging when it appears that that is all industry cares about. Those of us who live away from the cities are just as interested in the environment and cost per mile as city folk. A 60-mile range just won’t cut it.

    So yes, Chevy Volt, and other EREV’s to follow, are the perfect answer. Especially if they’ll burn ethanol and other replaceable domestic fuels.


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (1:22 pm)

    GXT:
    Buying an EREV and a BEV make no sense to me.Assuming you drive the BEV as your daily car and the second car only when you go on the odd long trip, why would you pay $40,000 for a car you will only use perhaps a couple of dozen times per year… and when you are using it it will largely be on gas anyways? A $15,000 car will perform as well as the Volt in this role.  

    As you describe it, you’re correct. But many families need two vehicles daily – they don’t have one just sitting around for trips. An EREV + a BEV meets all needs for those families, using the least petrol.
    HTH
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (1:36 pm)

    That’s exactly why even if I were a millionaire I’d drive a Volt over a Tesla anyday. I like to drive long distances. And with a Tesla, I couldn’t even get from my home in Northern California to my sisters home in Southern California in a single day, I’d have to stop at a hotel and hope they let me charge it overnight. With the Volt I’d just continue to and charge it whenever I can. When it’s in electric mode, it’s using no fuel and it’s very quiet. When its in the range extending mode, it’s using very little fuel and from what I’ve heard from nearly every media outlet that has tested near production models it’s still very quiet.

    Think about it, in a traditional electric car without a range extender, a trip across the US would take a long long time and would basically be impossible unless your time wasn’t precious. With the Volt it’s possible to do it in the same time as a normal gasoline powered vehicle.


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    Tagamet

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (1:39 pm)

    GXT: According to GM, Lyle’s example is the exception.GM tells us that almost 80% of the US commutes less than 40 miles per day.So Lyle’s 60 mile commute is BY FAR the exception.And even so, it is only in the cold weather with a hacked together EV when he isn’t able to charge at work and needs to go on his one or two monthly exceptionally long commutes that range begins to become an issue.
    Add to that that the US probably has some of the longest commutes in the world and you begin to see how small a problem this really is for the vast majority of people.  

    Wasn’t the thread about range anxiety? Did you know that Lyle had to call a tow truck three times? Just curious.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    solo

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (1:44 pm)

    Let’s face it. Range anxiety is real and it doesn’t take a study (likely at taxpayer expense) to rationalize its importance. Look at the dismal failures of pure electric cars so far. They cost too much to develop for the super small number of buyers they attract. EV-1, Honda, MINI, all of them are marketing failures. A gas engine backup is the only way electric cars will sell.

    I just got back from a trip to Florida for bike week. 5 guys, 1 Dodge Ram 2500 (HEMI), a 27 foot enclosed trailer, 6 Harley’s in the trailer and 1 in the truck bed. 2000 miles, and about 240 gallons of gas. Can’t do that in an electric anything……


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    Todd

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (1:47 pm)

    Ted in Fort Myers: Range anxiety is a problem for those who have trouble planning. I still hope at some point that the Volt EV is introduced with 100 miles of range. I would drive one witout question. In the meantime, I would love to have a Volt Extrended Range electric vehicle for my primary car and the Volt BEV for my second car. YES GM I would love to be a beta Tester.Take Care,TED  (Quote)

    My only problem with this is having to explain to my son why I couldn’t pick him up from school because issues out of his control caused him to miss the bus. Can you imagine: “I’m sorry son, I have to go home and get the other car. I didn’t plan on picking you up and had to take the boss to lunch which I also didn’t plan on. There’s not enough battery power. Yes I know it’s cold and getting dark. I’ll get there as soon as I can.” Life interupts a lot and you may be able to control most of your plans but you can’t control others, especially the un-expected ones that affect you. I need something that I can change plans with in a moments notice. The Volt in its current configuration allows this.


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    Frank

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:05 pm)

    First there was the ICE, then the Hybrid, the EREV and soon to be the BEV. All because we are all fed up with high gas prices. My thinking is, the BEV will take hold once the charging of batteries is done within 10 mins. to say … 80% and drive 125 miles on a single charge and having strategically placed charging stations within the cities and on our highways, it will be just like having our old familiar gas stations everywhere.

    Until finally, we will all wonder why were we so hung up on gas? Just to hear the roar of an engine?

    Quick charging is where the future lies.


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    Quick Roundup « I look like a clown at a all-you-can-eat.

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:08 pm)

    [...] http://gm-volt.com/2010/03/07/study-questions-importance-of-range-anxiety-to-ev-drivers/To combat this I kept my 2005 G35 as a back up and long range driver. I also searched the internet for resources and public charging. After 1 month with the car, range anxiety, reliability and public charging were a non issue. …. Note: The Nissan LEAF has a LEVEL 3 connector under that charging door. I think it’s the left connector in the videos I’ve watched. Over the years, I think you’ll see LEVEL 3 Quick Chargers cheap flights Gold Coast to Emerald begin to appear at gas stations in the US. … [...]


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    Frank Benepensee

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:10 pm)

    Those who live in CA take any research capable of being ideologically tinged with many grains of salt (organic sea salt of course). This research appears totally meaningless or fatally flawed. If it purpoerts to confirm that those who drive BEVs are willing to get BEVs then it is the former. If it purports to tell us that the general population (those folks that need o be converted) aren’t concerned about range then it’s fatally flawed because it extrapolates from a meaningless sample. On second thought maybe it’s flawed and meaningless.


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    3rd grade teacher

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:10 pm)

    Constantin: EV 1 had 100 miles range not 40 miles like VOLT so GM is triking the public again to use THE BIG OIL !
    Well the Tesla S with 300 miles range and 30 minutes charging time is coming ! SO DONT WORY GMBE HAPY !  

    The only problem you should worry about is your illiteracy. I count no less than ten spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors in your two little sentences.


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    DonC

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:19 pm)

    Jeff: Think about it, in a traditional electric car without a range extender, a trip across the US would take a long long time and would basically be impossible unless your time wasn’t precious.

    That would be what car rentals are for.

    Sorry for the chippy response, but it seems wholly unproductive comparing two vehicles using a situation one of the vehicles is not designed for. Change the situation and you get a different result For example, how would a four seat Volt do, as compared to the five seat Leaf, when needing to take four children soccer practice? The fact is that the EREV drive train eliminates the fifth seat. For some that may be a show stopper, just as for some having a limited range is a show stopper. That doesn’t make one of these cars per se better than another. Just different trade-offs.


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:23 pm)

    3rd grade teacher: Constantin: EV 1 had 100 miles range not 40 miles like VOLT so GM is triking the public again to use THE BIG OIL !
    Well the Tesla S with 300 miles range and 30 minutes charging time is coming ! SO DONT WORY GMBE HAPY !

    The only problem you should worry about is your illiteracy. I count no less than ten spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors in your two little sentences.

    I know that it’s grating at times, but *my* first thought was that this may be a case of “English as a second language”. Even if that isn’t the case, illiterates have opinions too! In fact, they probably had teachers at some point, as well. (g)
    Be well and “BE HAPY!”,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Streetlight

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:24 pm)

    Its a certainty: 1) There exists a niche segment to which range is secondary or the ship would never leave the dock; and, 2) The goal of going EV MUST be to ‘reach all segments’. Right now whatever be the arguments – at 40 miles battery and 300 mile ER range – VOLT is locked into the niche segment to which range is secondary. At some point in time VOLT Leadership must confront range issues if this EV is to not merely sell limited production runs but to reach the general segment to which range is a vital factor … for any reason. Now there are compelling arguments in support of 500+ range. First, for that segment which dislikes plugging in but tolerates the need in order to be green, charging less than every night say even once a week is more appealing plus extends battery life significantly. Simply increase gas tank size, look at the Audi. There are also compelling arguments in support of opening ER ICE control to manual operation per Audi EV.

    From my 1000+ mile range hypothetical yesterday I was asked what time line GM travels to verify new battery chemistry. I don’t know. It could be the LG route was as much of convenience as it was tech compliance. Recently GM’s new battery lab reported it had tested 150+ new but unproven battery chemistries. That makes sense. This is all new terrain and here GM must feel its way along.

    If Leaf or for that matter any competitor suddenly acquires the kind of game-changing new B chemistry as predicated in my hypothetical VOLT would be in very serious sales trouble. However, if VOLT right now puts its best foot forward with a 500+ ER range – it would surely be able to withstand comfortably just about any competitor EV improvement event.


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    West Coast Driver

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:28 pm)

    Peder Norby: Geetings from Mini-E 183.When I entered the pilot program, I did so as an EV and solar enthusiast who could afford the $850 a month payment. My expectation was that the car would be at times impractical and that I would have range anxiety. To combat this I kept my 2005 G35 as a back up and long range driver. I also searched the internet for resources and public charging. After 1 month with the car, range anxiety, reliability and public charging were a non issue. I sold the G35. I looked at it as a year long $10,000 adventure in the wild new world of electrics, a beta tester to work out all the bugs and glitches. The reality is the car is entirely normal, dependable and practical albeit with just two seats.I’m at 12,000 miles, just over 8 months and have never used the mobile cord for charging. It’s still in the plastic case. On the west coast with more mild winters, 90-100 miles is no problem. BMW has announced that it will have liquid thermal management in it’s next electric car the Active E similar to the Volt. This will help greatly in the colder climates and will be a big improvement over the Mini-E mule.Lyle is right about his need for a EREV and I am right about my need for a BEV. For me it is impractical to pay for the complexities of an EREVand haul around a gas generator and a fuel tank for no reason. For Lyle the EREV is a better choice as the BEV does not do everything he needs it to do.Your lifestyle, commute, access to another car, and other factors will determine what’s right for you. Both answers are right and one is not better than the other. My guess is that the BEV like the Mini-E will be good for 50% or more of the population. The ideal candidate for a BEV is a driver in a two car family that has a commute less than 75 miles round trip. It will work for single city dwellers with short commutes as well as other groups of drivers. That is our situation, my wife, an elementary school principal, drives a Ford Escape and I drive a Mini-E. My commute is 30 miles round trip with a 80 mile round trip once a week. Her commute is 50 miles round trip and she enjoys driving the Mini-E as well.We travel about three times a year and one of those times is a road trip where we take the Escape. I’m looking forward to the many choices ahead of us for the BEV’s and for our family one of our cars will always be a BEV. Get that Voltec drive train in a small SUV and I’ll have an EREV in the garage as well.  (Quote)

    Another satisfied customer, well said !

    GO EV !!!


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:31 pm)

    I think all those taking pot shots at the survey should read the article. (If they’ve read it and are still writing stuff like “you don’t need a survey to know range anxiety is real” then they have other issues). The survey wasn’t looking at range anxiety, which was assumed to exist, it was looking at whether drivers used or felt they needed a public charging infrastructure.

    The article found they didn’t which has many implications, especially for ideas like Project Better Place, which assumes such an infrastructure is needed, and for questions about possible stresses on the electrical grid.


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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:39 pm)

    DonC: Jeff: Think about it, in a traditional electric car without a range extender, a trip across the US would take a long long time and would basically be impossible unless your time wasn’t precious.

    DonC: That would be what car rentals are for.

    Sorry for the chippy response, but it seems wholly unproductive comparing two vehicles using a situation one of the vehicles is not designed for. Change the situation and you get a different result …

    Yeah, Don, but what if you really, really need to get from 0-60 in under 4 seconds? Huh? LOL.
    Sorry, just thought that I’d be funny.
    You’re right, of course. The right tool for the right job.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    jonboinAR

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:40 pm)

    zipdrive: Range anxiety is a HUGE issue. The Chevy Volt solves this problem brilliantly.  (Quote)

    IF, that is, consumers feel they can afford it. That’s the big question. However, I applaud the effort to find out, extremely.


  74. 74
    EVNow

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:46 pm)

    Peder Norby: Geetings from Mini-E 183….Your lifestyle, commute, access to another car, and other factors will determine what’s right for you. Both answers are right and one is not better than the other. …That is our situation, my wife, an elementary school principal, drives a Ford Escape and I drive a Mini-E. My commute is 30 miles round trip with a 80 mile round trip once a week. Her commute is 50 miles round trip and she enjoys driving the Mini-E as well.

    Very well put. With 60 Million multi-car households, current battery tech is ready to satisfy 50% of US households.

    My commute is 12 miles round trip and my wife’s 25 miles. On weekends we normally do 25 to 50 miles. Once in a while we do more than 100 mile road trips.

    We we will replace my old Nissan for a new Nissan Leaf this year. In a few years, we will get a EREV crossover.


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    DonC

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:47 pm)

    Just following up on #71, the implications of finding that EV drivers don’t need charging away from home are significant. One potential issue with EVs is that they will stress the electric grid. While everyone accepts the fact that EVs will not create charging problems if used at night, the question has remained whether people would in fact do charge at night (which is another way of saying they’d charge at home). This study suggest not only that they will, but that home charging is sufficient for a arge percentages of the population.

    If this is the case, then municipalities that are spending public money on creating a charging infrastructure may want to rethink their efforts. If public charging is unnecessary for a great number of EV users, then NOT installing public chargers will save taxpayers money and obviate potential stresses on the electric grid, all the while not significantly adversely effecting the adoption of EVs.


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    DonC

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:50 pm)

    Tagamet: Yeah, Don, but what if you really, really need to get from 0-60 in under 4 seconds? Huh?

    I’m afraid neither car will do well on that one Tag! This doesn’t worry me personally because at those speeds I’d be concerned about the “dry pants” indicator. LOL


  77. 77
    3rd grade teacher

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:56 pm)

    Tagamet:
    I know that it’s grating at times, but *my* first thought was that this may be a case of “English as a second language”. Even if that isn’t the case, illiterates have opinions too! In fact, they probably had teachers at some point, as well. (g)
    Be well and “BE HAPY!”,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  

    Yeah, I thought that too Tag, but still, the person has a serious English problem whether it’s first or second language.

    Also, do we really want an illiterate’s opinion? I don’t. This is an intelligent website and I’d like to see it stay that way.

    However, I sympathize with the person. He or she has a handicap in life that is truly unnecessary. That is very sad.


  78. 78
    Tagamet

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:59 pm)

    Streetlight: Its a certainty: 1) There exists a niche segment to which range is secondary or the ship would never leave the dock; and, 2) The goal of going EV MUST be to ‘reach all segments’. Right now whatever be the arguments – at 40 miles battery and 300 mile ER range – VOLT is locked into the niche segment to which range is secondary. At some point in time VOLT Leadership must confront range issues if this EV is to not merely sell limited production runs but to reach the general segment to which range is a vital factor … for any reason….

    Just so I’m understanding you correctly, are you saying that a 300 mile range between fill-ups is “limited” to the extent that it would render a vehicle to niche status? If so, why?
    Thanks,
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    jonboinAR

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (2:59 pm)

    Tagamet: Although it’s obvious that no one KNOWS what the future will bring, isn’t it better to have people reporting what the current data *suggests*? It’s done all the time. It just makes sense to make data based decisions and then adjust as the data changes (which it will).JMO.Be well and believe,TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  (Quote)

    No, Man. That’s “I have no idea” range. It seems to me, with Tech at least, 10 years is stretching it. Perhaps an entity as influential as the US government has more of a need to project really far IF they’re planning to influence that future in a specific field, but if they’re planning to remain relatively passive in whatever it is, they’re back in “I have no idea” territory.


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    jonboinAR

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (3:11 pm)

    Streetlight: Its a certainty: 1) There exists a niche segment to which range is secondary or the ship would never leave the dock; and, 2) The goal of going EV MUST be to ‘reach all segments’. Right now whatever be the arguments – at 40 miles battery and 300 mile ER range – VOLT is locked into the niche segment to which range is secondary. At some point in time VOLT Leadership must confront range issues if this EV is to not merely sell limited production runs but to reach the general segment to which range is a vital factor … for any reason.   (Quote)

    I believe it has infinite ER range, just like any gasoline car. Filling with gas is completely trivial except for the price of gas. It’s the point of building a series hybrid. There’s a range anxiety with any currently concieved EV that doesn’t exist with a gas car. The Volt concept solves this. It introduces another problem, though. Is the technology blend more expensive than people are willing to pay for? We shall see.


  81. 81
    Tagamet

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (3:19 pm)

    3rd grade teacher: …Also, do we really want an illiterate’s opinion? I don’t. This is an intelligent website and I’d like to see it stay that way….

    Actually, I don’t see illiteracy as having much to do with intelligence. Illiteracy has to do with what a person has learned (as in reading or writing). Intellect is the cognitive “horsepower” that the person owns. If I am illiterate in French, I can still be intellectually capable and maybe even have an opinion worth hearing. I’ve evaluated hundreds (thousands?) of kids who are incredibly bright, but had perceptual difficulties that did not allow them to acquire functional reading skills – even with exceptionally good teachers. This really isn’t “splitting hairs” – it’s a genuine distinction. It’s easy to judge a person by their writing skills, but it’s unlikely to tell you much about their intellect. Einstein was kicked out of 6th grade for poor skills.
    Thanks for working in the trenches! Been there (with special needs kids), and it ain’t easy (g).
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  82. 82
    CorvetteGuy

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (3:34 pm)

    “Range Anxiety” only comes into play if the electric/plug-in you are considering is your PRIMARY vehicle. Even Lyle stated that “instead using a second gas-powered car for those occasions” for longer trips.

    From the postings I’ve read here over the last 2 years, it seems like the VOLT, or any other electric car, will most likely be the 2nd or 3rd vehicle in the family. Very few posts here stated the VOLT would be the one and only car in the household.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (3:39 pm)

    DonC:
    I’m afraid neither car will do well on that one Tag! This doesn’t worry me personally because at those speeds I’d be concerned about the “dry pants” indicator. LOL  

    Sorry, I thought that a Tesla could do that. I guess I didn’t read the literature on a 100K+ vehicle too closely (LOL). Go figure. In any case, I’d never “floor” a Tesla without having a pacemaker installed first. Pants, well, pants I can change (g).
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  84. 84
    James E

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (3:48 pm)

    I drive 30 miles round trip so I have no worries about running the battery dry. 100 mile range can get me to work in back 3 times without re-charging. However, I highly doubt that I would forget to plug in at night. If a mfg can reduce the vehicle cost and weight by not lugging around a 500 pound ICE for the “Just in Case” scenario, then they can sign me up!

    Range extenders are needed for other people that have different needs. The more options that we have for EV’s the better chance we have for them to catch on with the general public. Let’s get the EV’s on the Road!


  85. 85
    James

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (3:49 pm)

    Pure EVs have their niche as a short/med range commuter, and can be ideal for city dwellers and people who’se daily lives revolve around a surburban center with all accoutrements within a 20 mile radius.

    The Mini E seats two. This limits it’s practicality and utility mostly to singles. I owned a Honda CRX when I was young and single, and found it met my needs about 80% of the time. Of course I was sunk when a third person had to come along.

    The Volt ups the ante greatly. Utility isn’t it’s middle name as seating four only can put limitations upon the owner – and it won’t be the penultimate family car. I made distince value judgements when I purchased a Prius over a minivan – and never considered an SUV due to mileage and the fact I can live without AWD and it’s pricetag. So far, after two years the Prius only has to carry five maybe 5% of the time ( it’s a SQUEEZE for my wife and two child seats in the back let me tell ya – as the Prius narrows to the rear for aero! ). The Prius is one efficient package in that it’s wheels are pushed to extremes out to the corners of the car which gives it amazing capacity with it’s hatchback and folding seats, and a great narrow turning circle.

    1.6 million Prius owners have decided to make small sacrifices ( no pun intended ) for efficiency. Volt owners will make an even larger sacrifice, but for higher returns in efficiency. As i’ve stated since I started posting on GM-Volt.com, that will be enough for a significant market sector, but a deal-breaker for many with families and the need for more seating and a bigger cargo area.

    RECHARGE! James

    Our family is willing to


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    wolfdoctor

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (4:14 pm)

    The average American household owns 2.28 cars. I can see one car being an ICE (or EREV) and the other being a BEV, the BEV being used for not too long commutes or for running errands. I believe the market for BEVs can be very large indeed. BEVs are obviously niche vehicles. I find the study to be accurate because intelligent BEV owners, who understand BEV limitations, are not likely to feel range anxiety. If a person buys a BEV and has long commutes or wants to take trips in it, then he has obviously purchased the wrong vehicle (and he WILL indeed feel anxiety). I consider that person to be of the “not too bright” category. All this considered I believe that the range anxiety issue is 95% propaganda and 5% real.


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    Streetlight

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (4:20 pm)

    Tagamet #78; jonboinAR #80. ER EV’s impose two duties. One to charge. Two to fill-up. The charge means having infrastructure in a garage or car-port. This limitation alone manifests a niche segment. So we’ll have for the 100 mile a day driver like Lyle, having to charge every night and fill-up twice (or more) a week. This kind of constant duty is obviously alleviated bigtime with 500+ mile range – two ways. First by permitting the driver to skip nightly charging for any reason and making one trip a week to fill-up Second, the driver has more leeway in selecting where and when to charge. This is what (I think) Audi had foreseen as well as the several ER EV’s announced lately.

    Furthermore, primetime for VOLT still is a whole year off. GM must keep VOLT relevant. Meaning if competition is offering 150 mile pure EV and 600 miles ER VOLT will be facing a loosing battle.


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    Itching4it

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (5:32 pm)

    Streetlight: Right now whatever be the arguments – at 40 miles battery and 300 mile ER range – VOLT is locked into the niche segment to which range is secondary.  

    For practical purposes, the “range” of a vehicle is not how far you can go without refueling, but how far you can go in a day. Of all the cars I’ve owned in the past forty-five years, only one, a Prius, could go 500 miles on a tank of gas, but I never even gave that “feature” a thought. The real range of the Prius was about the same as as the range of the other nine cars I have owned. And the range of my next car, my Volt, will also be about the same.


  89. 89
    Tagamet

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (5:42 pm)

    Streetlight: Tagamet #78; jonboinAR #80. ER EV’s impose two duties. One to charge. Two to fill-up. The charge means having infrastructure in a garage or car-port. This limitation alone manifests a niche segment. So we’ll have for the 100 mile a day driver like Lyle, having to charge every night and fill-up twice (or more) a week. This kind of constant duty is obviously alleviated bigtime with 500+ mile range – two ways. First by permitting the driver to skip nightly charging for any reason and making one trip a week to fill-up Second, the driver has more leeway in selecting where and when to charge. This is what (I think) Audi had foreseen as well as the several ER EV’s announced lately.Furthermore, primetime for VOLT still is a whole year off. GM must keep VOLT relevant. Meaning if competition is offering 150 mile pure EV and 600 miles ER VOLT will be facing a loosing battle.  

    A) 100 mile commute is well above average.
    B) Can you give me a lead on which Audi you’re referring to? I checked and can’t find one mentioned that will either be out soon, or has a 600 mile range.
    C) MAYBE people buying a car, go into the process thinking “I wonder how often I’ll need to go to the gas station with this vehicle”? Personally, I never have, but that’s just me.
    D) Anyone who has no range anxiety in a BEV, should be willing to drive it 100% of the time stark naked. Now *that* would say “No range anxiety HERE”!
    E) Let’s not let perfect be the enemy of the good.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Dave K.

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (5:45 pm)

    Range anxiety? What, me worry?

    The Auto123 Show ~ Volt demo drive.

    Volt%20123%20demo%20drive.jpg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64VcFiaT-o

    =D-Volt


  91. 91
    Itching4it

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (5:59 pm)

    James: So far, after two years the Prius only has to carry five maybe 5% of the time ( it’s a SQUEEZE for my wife and two child seats in the back let me tell ya – as the Prius narrows to the rear for aero! ).  

    That reminds me of something I have been wondering about — Obviously the battery tunnel leaves no room for a third person’s legs in the back seat, but would there be room for a car seat in the middle? If so, I would think it would be possible to attach a third belt to secure it, using the inside anchor points for the side belts.


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    Bruce

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (6:15 pm)

    C) “MAYBE people buying a car, go into the process thinking “I wonder how often I’ll need to go to the gas station with this vehicle”? Personally, I never have, but that’s just me.”

    Tagamet:

    After Volt has been out a while, people will not only be thinking about it, it’ll be one of the things they ask the car salesmen when they look at cars.


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    Eugene (in LA)

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (6:21 pm)

    Ted at #3 said:
    “In the meantime, I would love to have a Volt Extrended Range electric vehicle for my primary car and the Volt BEV for my second car…”

    I would suggest to GM to produce the VOLT BEV (as Bob Lutz alluded to…) using the original Volt concept design that we all loved so much. It would be a total hit!!!

    Eugene


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    Dave G

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (6:42 pm)

    BillR: E-REV gives me choices. If I don’t like the gas prices, I can use electricity. If the Utility puts in for big rate increases and gas prices drop, I can use gas.
    Until there are more long term, stable energy prices, we need to be able to exercise our options.

    yes, well said.


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    Dave G

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (6:50 pm)

    Peder Norby: For me it is impractical to pay for the complexities of an EREVand haul around a gas generator and a fuel tank for no reason.

    With a BEV you have to haul that big battery around even though it’s not usually used.

    Again, most people will compare a BEV-100 to an EREV-40. The extra battery required for a BEV-100 will be about the same weight and space as the ICE.


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    Jaime

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (7:23 pm)

    I never drive more than 30 miles a day. Plus an EV would be a second car for me, I’m keeping my gas car. I have absolutely no range anxiety.


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    Tagamet

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (7:24 pm)

    Dave K.: Range anxiety? What, me worry?The Auto123 Show ~ Volt demo drive.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64VcFiaT-o=D-Volt  

    Holy Crow. She talks faster than I can listen! (g)

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  98. 98
    Tagamet

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (7:28 pm)

    Bruce: C) “MAYBE people buying a car, go into the process thinking “I wonder how often I’ll need to go to the gas station with this vehicle”? Personally, I never have, but that’s just me.”Tagamet:After Volt has been out a while, people will not only be thinking about it, it’ll be one of the things they ask the car salesmen when they look at cars.  

    I was talking about range/tankful, but what you said, *too*.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    James

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (7:45 pm)

    Itching4it: That reminds me of something I have been wondering about — Obviously the battery tunnel leaves no room for a third person’s legs in the back seat, but would there be room for a car seat in the middle? If so, I would think it would be possible to attach a third belt to secure it, using the inside anchor points for the side belts.  (Quote)

    I agree – a slight reshaping of the battery stack might be in order – or not. I’d be all for child seat anchor points on top of the battery in the center – anything to add to the versatility. For me personally, that would make my Volt nearly as practical as my Prius seating capacity-wise.

    RECHARGE! James


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    Tagamet

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (7:49 pm)

    Eugene (in LA): I would suggest to GM to produce the VOLT BEV (as Bob Lutz alluded to…) using the original Volt concept design that we all loved so much. It would be a total hit!!!

    But with the areo of the Concept car, it’d be a BEV with a range of, what, 20? I loved the Concept car’s looks, but maybe as battery tech advances, they can bring that look back with a substantial AER. My “Lemons into Lemonade” is that my dear wife *hates* the Concept car’s looks, so the change (in my situation) is for the best…..

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Dave K.

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (7:58 pm)

    Tagamet: Holy Crow. She talks faster than I can listen! (g)

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Did you notice the minor changes. The dual display top lines have been matched up. Really ties the look of the entire dash together. And this prototype has Cruze mirrors on it.

    Volt%20display%20treatment.jpg
    Volt display treatment:

    Volt (w/ Cruze) mirror: Volt%20Cruze%20mirror.jpg

    Volt mirror (since 07′): Volt%20mirror.jpg

    As Tom Odell, Product Manager Chevy Volt (Canada) says, “With ten months to go, it’s pretty good looking right now. But by the time we’re in production, I think we’ll have everything nailed down.”

    _________________________________

    Perhaps the battery range testing is going better than expected? May not need thin aero mirrors? Mr. Odell sounds upbeat.

    BTW:Wonder what the depth dimension is on the dash hatch. Storage space with capacitive panel access? In one of the posts of 09′ we talked about making the Volt easy to work on.

    =D-Volt


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    3rd grade teacher

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:12 pm)

    Tagamet:
    Actually, I don’t see illiteracy as having much to do with intelligence. Illiteracy has to do with what a person has learned (as in reading or writing). Intellect is the cognitive “horsepower” that the person owns. If I am illiterate in French, I can still be intellectually capable and maybe even have an opinion worth hearing. I’ve evaluated hundreds (thousands?) of kids who are incredibly bright, but had perceptual difficulties that did not allow them to acquire functional reading skills – even with exceptionally good teachers. This really isn’t “splitting hairs” – it’s a genuine distinction. It’s easy to judge a person by their writing skills, but it’s unlikely to tell you much about their intellect. Einstein was kicked out of 6th grade for poor skills.
    Thanks for working in the trenches! Been there (with special needs kids), and it ain’t easy (g).
    Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  

    Tag, I totally agree. I’ve never equated illiteracy with intelligence or IQ. You can have cannibal with great brain power but who has no DATA to do him any good in a modern society.

    So, instead of the word “intelligence” I should have used “educated” or “informed”. I don’t care for a person’s opinion if they are not educated or informed, no matter what their IQ.

    Hope this clears it up.


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    Tom M

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:14 pm)

    “The participants chosen for the UC study appear to be a very selected group”

    That’s not true Lyle. All of us (I have a MINI-E also) were asked in an email before we got the cars that the UC Davis study was going to be done and encouraged us to participate. Nobody was chosen, we had to offer to do the study. I, like you, didn’t participate. Mostly because I didn’t know how much time it would take and I’m keeping my own records of every mile I drive so I figured that was enough “work” on my part.
    I have 22,000 miles on my MINI-E now which is the most miles of anybody in the program. I hope you’re enjoying driving electric as much as I am. In a perfect world I’ll have a Volt and a pure EV as my two family cars.

    Tom Moloughney
    MINI-E #250

    minie250.blogspot.com


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    George

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:16 pm)

    I agree with those who feel that an EREV combined with an inexpensive BEV could nicely meet the needs of most two-car households. However, if the costs of the EREV’s come down substantially (combined with longer AE Range & more fuel-efficient CS mode), then said family could just as easily go ahead and purchase two Volts–and that would offer maximum flexibility.

    As for range anxiety, it’s definitely real. I recall reading about how Jay Leno upon test-driving a Volt remarked that what impressed him the most about the vehicle was that he didn’t have to worry about the battery running dry in mid-trip.

    I had also read about a study done by a Tokyo utility looking at the driving/charging habits of motorists who were given a BEV to test-drive with a range I believe of 94 miles. Despite the decent range, their study noted that drivers tended to be overly cautious–seldom driving more than 40-50 miles, and seldom driving far away from either their home or charging stations.

    Sincerely, George…Sudbury, Canada…Go Volt!!


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    Michael

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:17 pm)

    3rd grade teacher: I don’t care for a person’s opinion if they are not educated or informed, no matter what their IQ.

    Well, one thing we can all agree on (I hope) is that this website is a great place to get educated and informed – about the Volt and EVs in general. :-)


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    Lacey Underall

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:18 pm)

    The biggest weakness of the Volt besides its 40 mile (or less) range is that it is a CEREAL powered Hybrid not like the proven Toyota Prius which is a PARALLEL powerhouse drive system. Someone forgot to tell GM engineers that automobiles are NOT trains (aka diesel electrics – which is the design GM copied for the Volt powertrain).


  107. 107
    Peder Norby

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:23 pm)

    Hello again,

    My two cents on charging based on my experience and talking with other several Tesla and dozens of Mini-E drivers.

    I was one of the drivers in the UC Davis study.

    First, the universe of BEV drivers is small so of course we are all interested in the technology, I don’t think that makes us bias as to simple questions regarding range, regen, and public charging. If it did not work I would say so, if the regen sucked I would say so, if I used or needed public charging I would say so.

    Second, it would not be much of a study if they asked non BEV drivers their experience with range and range anxiety. That’s why this study of 150 actual drivers is really important.

    Starting off in a gasoline world 100% of the fueling is at gas stations.

    In an BEV and EREV world 75% of the charging will be done at home from a variety of sources, wind, hydro, solar, nuclear, natural gas, methane, coal, fuel cell and others.

    Charging at your place of work is perhaps 10% The public charging stations are not that valuable at 5% and freeway charging is the other 10%.

    The public charging where much of the focus is and to some extent the office charging becomes less valuable as the range goes up. For example a person who needs to charge at a public charger at a 70 mile range would not need to at a 140 mile range.

    Also the two charging stations at Costco, Walmart or the Library work great when there are a few dozen cars. When there are thousands and you can’t reliable get one of those two coveted charge points on a reliable basis, they will become worthless.

    So basically with more range and greater numbers the public charging need goes down.

    What will still be needed is electron stations along freeways and long distance roads. These will most likely be at gas stations as they begin the transition and truck stops. My guess is it will be in the 15 minute to one hour charge times. So a nice break and a meal and your back on the road. Eventually these stops will make up about 10% of total charging instead of the 100% for a gasoline car.

    To summarize, the home charging is where the big game and 75% to 85% of the total charging will be. There will be a need on a case by case basis at the place of work for those with a long commute. And the public charger will play a diminishing role especially when the number of units BEV, EREV and PHEV, escalate into the 50,000 plus range. The freeway long distance charging will always be needed and will be the rapid charging high voltage, battery storage, ultra capacitor model.
    In my opinion the hype and prominence of public charging is grossly over rated.

    Peder
    solar+mini+small.jpg


  108. 108
    Bus Driver

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:24 pm)

    Michael:
    Well, one thing we can all agree on (I hope) is that this website is a great place to get educated and informed – about the Volt and EVs in general.   

    Friendly reminder for those who really want to get edumacated on the Volt.

    Lesson #1:

    The Chevrolet Volt is a HYBRID and NOT a true EV because it has a gasoline powered motor !

    Class dismissed. Consider yourself schooled by the BUS DRIVER !

    They call me the Bus Driver because I take everyone to school

    Note: No charge for this lesson as I consider it a public service.


  109. 109
    Michael

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:25 pm)

    Lacey Underall: The biggest weakness of the Volt besides its 40 mile (or less) range is that it is a CEREAL powered Hybrid not like the proven Toyota Prius which is a PARALLEL powerhouse drive system. Someone forgot to tell GM engineers that automobiles are NOT trains (aka diesel electrics – which is the design GM copied for the Volt powertrain).  

    I couldn’t disagree with you more. The fact that the VOLT is somewhat like a diesel locomotive is one of the reasons I first started following the VOLT almost two years ago. I think it’s the right way to do it. Serial hybrids are for everyone, at any time (not just for breakfast ;-) ).


  110. 110
    David

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:27 pm)

    I already have the money set aside to buy a Volt without any financing.

    The Volt to me is the best possible solution for at least the next decade for an energy secure future without losing the flexibility of a traditional gas powered car.

    I live in Georgia which has both Nuclear and Hydroelectric (and coal) powered grid, I typically drive just about 40 miles per day but sometimes I end up having to drive 300 miles in 1 day. The volt makes my petroleum usage nill on days I drive 40 miles and I don’t need a 2nd car when I drive 300 miles. Best possible solution at this time and probably for the next decade.


  111. 111
    Michael

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:28 pm)

    Bus Driver:
    Friendly reminder for those who really want to get edumacated on the Volt.Lesson #1:The Chevrolet Volt is a HYBRID and NOT a true EV because it has a gasoline powered motor !Class dismissed. Consider yourself schooled by the BUS DRIVER !They call me the Bus Driver because I take everyone to schoolNote: No charge for this lesson as I consider it a public service.  

    So what’s your point? It is a true EV for the first 40 miles or so.


  112. 112
    David

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:31 pm)

    Lacey Underall: The biggest weakness of the Volt besides its 40 mile (or less) range is that it is a CEREAL powered Hybrid not like the proven Toyota Prius which is a PARALLEL powerhouse drive system. Someone forgot to tell GM engineers that automobiles are NOT trains (aka diesel electrics – which is the design GM copied for the Volt powertrain).  

    It has unlimited range on gasoline, same as any other car.


  113. 113
    Richard Petty

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:37 pm)

    Michael:
    I couldn’t disagree with you more.The fact that the VOLT is somewhat like a diesel locomotive is one of the reasons I first started following the VOLT almost two years ago.I think it’s the right way to do it.Serial hybrids are for everyone, at any time (not just for breakfast ).  

    The Prius has a much higher top end speed than the Volt. All Toyota Prius’ (gen 1 thru 3) will absolutely blow the doors off a Volt on the highway. Be careful with that breakfast serial on the highway and move over quickly if you see a Prius rapidly approaching in your mirrors.

    - The King of Racing


  114. 114
    Michael

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (8:46 pm)

    Richard Petty:
    The Prius has a much higher top end speed than the Volt. All Toyota Prius’ (gen 1 thru 3) will absolutely blow the doors off a Volt on the highway. Be careful with that breakfast serial on the highway and move over quickly if you see a Prius rapidly approaching in your mirrors.- The King of Racing  

    Richard, thanks for the Prius information. For me it is not a contest. I have nothing against a Prius at all. I just have no intention of getting one or even shopping for one. I have every intention of looking at and considering buying a VOLT when they are available in New Mexico.

    At least you detected the humor in the post. :-)


  115. 115
    Keith

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:07 pm)

    I have read somewhere that GM is also building a Volt without the range extender .
    I don’t see any discussion on it here . Why not ?


  116. 116
    Steverino

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:13 pm)

    I’d go for an all electric in a heartbeat, provided it had the range of my gasoline powered cars and I could “fill it up” to full charge in the same time it takes to fill my gas tank with 15 gallons! Oh, and I want it priced in the mid 20′s to 30′s. No such animal (yet) exists obviously, but the Volt is a fair stab in that direction, given that it has a backup ICE. It’s higher priced than I’d like, and recharges in hours not minutes, but the ER makes it viable for my needs.


  117. 117
    vlad the Impaler

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:16 pm)

    Crunch.

    Lacey Underall: The biggest weakness of the Volt besides its 40 mile (or less) range is that it is a CEREAL powered Hybrid not like the proven Toyota Prius which is a PARALLEL powerhouse drive system. Someone forgot to tell GM engineers that automobiles are NOT trains (aka diesel electrics – which is the design GM copied for the Volt powertrain).  

    Mmmm, “CEREAL” powered. I wonder which would do the job better – Lucky Charms or Cap’n Crunch. Or maybe Coco Puffs.


  118. 118
    Dave K.

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:20 pm)

    hi Kieth #115 …

    Keith: I have read somewhere that GM is also building a Volt without the range extender .
    I don’t see any discussion on it here . Why not ?

    A Volt without a range extender wouldn’t be a Volt. Would love to see GM get into the BEV market with an electric Sky. Or Aura type vehicle. Hoping the next progression of Voltec (EREV) is a 400 mile range crossover. Think GM could sell a few of these?

    =D-Volt

    GM%20EREV%20crossover.jpg


  119. 119
    nuclearboy

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:40 pm)

    Peder Norby: My two cents on charging based on my experience and talking with other several Tesla and dozens of Mini-E drivers.

    Thanks for the insights from a real life practical perspective.


  120. 120
    Michael

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:44 pm)

    Keith: I have read somewhere that GM is also building a Volt without the range extender .
    I don’t see any discussion on it here . Why not ?  

    It has been discussed on this site many times, usually in connection with Bob Lutz. I’m sure it will be discussed again. If you go back to the quote that GM is “betting that range anxiety is important,” you can draw the conclusion that GM is not ready to produce a BEV. What you probably read is that GM is considering a BEV sometime in the future, not that they are building one. I believe what Bob said was, “once you develop and produce an EREV, it is trivial to produce a BEV.”


  121. 121
    Blind Guy

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:44 pm)

    We currently own a prius and my wife still gets range anxiety if she gets below 3 bars. The DOE study should be helpful concerning charge station infrastructure. As batteries get better the need for charging stations will be mostly placed for long commutes. For now, peoples needs are so diverse, that there is no one size fits all solutions concerning bevs, erevs or all other choices. The Volt will give people another great option towards electrification and reducing dependence on oil!


  122. 122
    George

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:46 pm)

    Richard Petty: The Prius has a much higher top end speed than the Volt. All Toyota Prius’ (gen 1 thru 3) will absolutely blow the doors off a Volt on the highway. Be careful with that breakfast serial on the highway and move over quickly if you see a Prius rapidly approaching in your mirrors.- The King of Racing  (Quote)

    I fail to see how the Volt’s top speed of 103 mph, as claimed, could possibly be viewed by anyone as any kind of a liability, unless you’re planning on driving in the Indy 500, or perhaps you’re hell-bent on getting alot of speeding tickets handed your way (or you drive regularly on the Autobahn).

    The Volt’s only liability will be its initially high price–expected to drop dramatically in later versions, due to R & D, mass-production, economies-of-scale, greater efficiencies, etc. Keep in mind, new technologies are always initially more expensive (e.g., personal computers). The Prius, on the other hand, will enjoy a price advantage initially and for some time thereafter.

    Other bloggers have amply pointed out elsewhere the superior styling of the Volt over the Prius, but I guess that’s a matter of taste (I like the styling of both cars).

    You might want to check out various definitions on the Web of “straw-man argument.”

    Sincerely, George. Sudbury, Ont., Canada…Go Volt.


  123. 123
    Roy H

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (9:55 pm)

    3rd grade teacher:
    The only problem you should worry about is your illiteracy.I count no less than ten spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors in your two little sentences.  

    Be careful of such criticisms in a public blog. One of the wonderful things about the Internet is that we now have a world community. Some posters may be from foreign countries and English is a second language to them. Since I do not speak any other languages, I am always impressed by anybody who is multilingual, and quite willing to forgive terrible English if they just succeed in getting their idea across.
    Have a good day.


  124. 124
    Tagamet

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (10:28 pm)

    Dave K.:
    Did you notice the minor changes. The dual display top lines have been matched up. Really ties the look of the entire dash together. …“With ten months to go, it’s pretty good looking right now. But by the time we’re in production, I think we’ll have everything nailed down.”_________________________________Perhaps the battery range testing is going better than expected? May not need thin aero mirrors? Mr. Odell sounds upbeat…..=D-Volt  

    LOL, it’s funny what gets noticed! Personally, I noticed that the host’s dual displays matched up pretty well, but once you pointed out the *dash*, it really does look good! (too)(that wasn’t out loud, was it?) .
    Interesting comment about the mirrors too. I continue to think that they are sandbagging the AER. Closer to 50, or 40 with some zest.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  125. 125
    Dave G

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (10:34 pm)

    Bus Driver: The Chevrolet Volt is a HYBRID and NOT a true EV because it has a gasoline powered motor !

    I think Tesla knows what an EV is. Here’s an interesting article from them:
    http://www.teslamotors.com/blog3/?p=67
    “… Many people have criticized GM for spinning the issue and calling the Volt an EV with a range extender, and not a hybrid. Those people are usually surprised when I tell them I agree with GM 100% on this. Although the technical terminology of series hybrid has been in existence for over 100 years, the marketplace has redefined “Hybrid” in such a way that I think it misrepresents the key differences between the platforms. You might argue that the average Joe won’t understand the difference between series and parallel hybrid systems if you were to tell them about it but I can assure you that they will understand the difference when they get behind the wheel.

    The key difference is that with the “Range Extended EV” approach, you have a 100% electrically driven powertrain. The characteristics of this powertrain, with the smooth power and the high torque, will feel substantially different than a parallel hybrid system, which is fundamentally a gas motor with an electric assist. The electric motor in a parallel hybrid system will not have the power to provide the kind of thrills that a pure electric drivetrain can offer. There are other reasons to consider these two approaches substantially different that relate to CO2 emission under typical driving patterns but the bottom line is that I think these will evolve as two distinct market segments in the timeframe we are talking about …”


  126. 126
    Tagamet

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (10:38 pm)

    Michael:
    I couldn’t disagree with you more.The fact that the VOLT is somewhat like a diesel locomotive is one of the reasons I first started following the VOLT almost two years ago.I think it’s the right way to do it.Serial hybrids are for everyone, at any time (not just for breakfast ).  

    Agree +1, but I think this one, the petty one, and the driver are just trolling for replies. JMO.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  127. 127
    Tagamet

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (10:46 pm)

    Roy H:
    Be careful of such criticisms in a public blog. One of the wonderful things about the Internet is that we now have a world community. Some posters may be from foreign countries and English is a second language to them. Since I do not speak any other languages, I am always impressed by anybody who is multilingual, and quite willing to forgive terrible English if they just succeed in getting their idea across.
    Have a good day.  

    Just to be fair, Roy. This was discussed way up there (points up), and we all agree.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  128. 128
    Brian

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:04 pm)

    My car has a range of about 500 miles. When I get down to 1/4 tank I still have about 100 miles still available, but I start to feel range anxiety and look for a gas station. When the red gas light comes on, I figure I have about 30 miles left and I totally start to feel range anxiety.

    If I had an electric car with 100 mile range, I would be in a constant state of worrying about how much charge I have left. I don’t understant why everyone doesn’t understand this.


  129. 129
    Don J

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:20 pm)

    I think Lyle can answer that the answer is “Yes, it is an issue.”


  130. 130
    Tagamet

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:28 pm)

    Brian: My car has a range of about 500 miles. When I get down to 1/4 tank I still have about 100 miles still available, but I start to feel range anxiety and look for a gas station. When the red gas light comes on, I figure I have about 30 miles left and I totally start to feel range anxiety.
    If I had an electric car with 100 mile range, I would be in a constant state of worrying about how much charge I have left. I don’t understant why everyone doesn’t understand this.  

    I think that most of us are just “spoiled” by the idea that there’s always a gas station just up the road. It’s just a “mind set” that for some is hard to escape. Back in the Old Days (Pres Carter – the one with the big teeth, and the peanut farm) we had gas lines around the block and fist fights broke out at the pumps. THEN people understood range anxiety.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet
    /NIght all

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  131. 131
    Tom

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:44 pm)

    The people that stress about how they would be constantly worried about running out of charge say that because they have never owned an electric car. It’s perfectly understandable, and I had always thought I would feel that way before I got the MINI-E. The thing is, after you live with the car for a little while (a month or so) the range anxiety goes away. I really never think about it anymore. I’ve never “ran out” of charge. I’ve never had to pull over and find a plug, and I haven’t had to change my lifestyle to accommodate the car. I drive it about 130 miles a day with midday charging at my job and have over 22,000 miles on it in eight months. I’ll put well over 30K on it in a year which is much more than the average person drives in a year.

    When you are unfamiliar with something it’s natural to be concerned or worry if it would work for you, but the whole rang anxiety thing is so overblown. In fact the only people stressing about it are the people that have never driven an EV. These two studies further prove it. The group that lives with an EV reported little to no range anxiety issues. The group that didn’t drive EV’s were worried about it and would prefer a hybrid or an EV with a range extender.

    Soon we will have both on the roads, so everyone will be happy.


  132. 132
    Tom

     

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    Mar 7th, 2010 (11:48 pm)

    Tagament:

    You forgot to mention that you could only go to a gas station on certain days based on the last digit of your license plate. Ah, the 70′s. I witnesses a few of those fist fights you mentioned myself.


  133. 133
    Antsoair

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (12:22 am)

    This is a totally bogus report. First of all if a person buys a car knowing that the range is limited, then they have already accepted that limitation. Lets talk to the people who looked at the Mini and chose to buy something else. Now lets compare the ratio of who purchased the Mini E and who didn’t.


  134. 134
    jbfalaska

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (12:23 am)

    Two reasons:

    1) Once there are sufficient plug-in stations, this issue will go away.

    2) If GM would hook up a jumpstart cable, so IF I did run out of juice, I could call the wife, a friend, or two truck to simply top me off enough to get home, I wouldn’t care.

    CHEVROLET VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED.


  135. 135
    Eugene (in LA)

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (1:43 am)

    Tag at # 100 said:
    But with the aero of the Concept car, it’d be a BEV with a range of, what, 20? I loved the Concept car’s looks, but maybe as battery tech advances, they can bring that look back with a substantial AER. My “Lemons into Lemonade” is that my dear wife *hates* the Concept car’s looks, so the change (in my situation) is for the best…..

    I WONDER WHAT IS THE DRAG COEFFICIENT OF THE VOLT CONCEPT CAR IN COMPARISON WITH THE MINI E CAR? Maybe if they would use the same size battery as in the Mini E and lose the two rear seats, the original VOLT might make it as a two-seater BEV 100 AER car…?!


  136. 136
    Crookieda

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (3:09 am)

    vlad the Impaler: Crunch.
    Mmmm, “CEREAL” powered.I wonder which would do the job better – Lucky Charms or Cap’n Crunch.Or maybe Coco Puffs.  

    Frosted flakes would win out, they’re grrreat!!


  137. 137
    DaveP

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (3:33 am)

    I have a lot of range anxiety. When BEVs eventually get to around 500mpc then we’ll talk. Otherwise, I’ll be happy to stick with EREV. Of course, I want more advanced generators, eventually, too. Something like a 2 cylinder 2 stroke diesel free piston linear alternator would be cool. :)


  138. 138
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (6:31 am)

    Range anxiety is real.

    I hope this clears things up for everyone. :)

    The great and powerful RASHIID has spoken…er….typed.

    I’m in a weird mode this morning.


  139. 139
    Michael

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (7:21 am)

    Rashiid Amul: I’m in a weird mode this morning.

    So, did you mean weird mode or weird mood or wired mode or . . . ;-)


  140. 140
    Herm

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (7:22 am)

    DaveP: I have a lot of range anxiety.When BEVs eventually get to around 500mpc then we’ll talk.Otherwise, I’ll be happy to stick with EREV.Of course, I want more advanced generators, eventually, too.Something like a 2 cylinder 2 stroke diesel free piston linear alternator would be cool.   

    I would not have much anxiety with a long range BEV, about 100-150 miles by the EPA hwy cycle, 24-36kwh pack.

    It would be a good idea to have some sort of range extender.. I like the idea of that wankel Audi is talking about.. something tiny running off a canister of LPG. 10kw would be more than plenty for those rare occasions. A couple of gallons of LPG would be fine. Could also run a flameless heater for those of you in the nasty parts of the country.


  141. 141
    koz

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (7:29 am)

    LRGVProVolt: Koz,As many here know, I have long said that the destiny of the Volt is, “To become a BEV.” GM has used the current level of technology to bring us a vehicle that is not limited by how far it can go on a single charge. In the same breath, you say that GM’s bet is not on electrification and also that their choice to build the Volt, an EREV. was right because it can build a BEV as a result of the Volt. Is there something you left out of your statement that would make it more understandable?Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  (Quote)

    Perhaps a little clarification would be better.

    “I disagree in that GM’s bet is on electrification not just EREV.”

    Lyle’s statement made it sound like GM made an either or bet and chose EREV. I believe their choice of design, while more costly and lengthy to develop incorporates nearly all of the development of a BEV. Thus, they are not confined to EREV by their efforts, and they can quickly and inexpensive offer both.


  142. 142
    Michael

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (7:29 am)

    Tom: When you are unfamiliar with something it’s natural to be concerned or worry if it would work for you, but the whole rang anxiety thing is so overblown. In fact the only people stressing about it are the people that have never driven an EV. These two studies further prove it. The group that lives with an EV reported little to no range anxiety issues. The group that didn’t drive EV’s were worried about it and would prefer a hybrid or an EV with a range extender.

    I wouldn’t argue with your points, only your conclusions. We are at a point where most people are unfamiliar with EVs *and* EREVs. Therefore, many people would worry or have range anxiety (personality driven). The issue for VOLT and other EV enthusiasts then is the effect it will have on consumers and therefore the success of the vehicles we are interested in. Most, not all, people coming to this site are interested in the VOLT (and presumably GM) succeeding.

    Believe and be well,
    Michael


  143. 143
    koz

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (7:33 am)

    LRGVProVolt: In my comment where I misread your earlier post, I was editing my comment before the time ran out, and planned on mentioning how different GM’s BEV would be compaired to the Volt. Inductive charging as Herm and you mention could be incorporated into the vehicle so we would only need to pull into our garage or the charging station to recharge the battery without needing to plug in. That would be a real game changer, IMHO.Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  (Quote)

    Oh, perhaps too subtle again. I was saying a BEV connectivity app could easily alert an owner if there car is not plugged in by a certain time thus avoiding the rare ocurrance when they might have forgotten to plug in, so wired plug-in charging is not an issue in this modern world IMO.


  144. 144
    Bruce

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (7:55 am)

    There’s a big problem with my having range anxiety, in order for me to feel it, I have to own a car that has a range limitation. At the moment, there are no cars in my price range, on the market, that have this limitation.

    So… lets get the Volt available for purchase everywhere, soon!


  145. 145
    Bruce

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (9:20 am)

    Somewhere it was mentioned that an extra billion dollars would not speed up the introduction of Volt. I say it could, put it in the bank for product liability lawsuit payment and start selling the darned things.


  146. 146
    Herm

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (9:23 am)

    koz: Oh, perhaps too subtle again. I was saying a BEV connectivity app could easily alert an owner if there car is not plugged in by a certain time thus avoiding the rare ocurrance when they might have forgotten to plug in, so wired plug-in charging is not an issue in this modern world IMO.  

    The car could even start honking the horn if it detected it was home and not plugged in.. a couple of times it did that and you would not forget.


  147. 147
    David

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (9:33 am)

    Richard Petty:
    The Prius has a much higher top end speed than the Volt. All Toyota Prius’ (gen 1 thru 3) will absolutely blow the doors off a Volt on the highway. Be careful with that breakfast serial on the highway and move over quickly if you see a Prius rapidly approaching in your mirrors.- The King of Racing  

    I think, with a national speed limit of 75mph and speeding fines jumping to several thousand dollars if you’re going more than 20 over, the 0-60 time is more important for a COMMUTER car than the top speed. The Volt absolutely kills the Prius on 0-60 times, we’re talking 2 seconds better.


  148. 148
    David

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (9:37 am)

    Antsoair: This is a totally bogus report.First of all if a person buys a car knowing that the range is limited, then they have already accepted that limitation.Lets talk to the people who looked at the Mini and chose to buy something else.Now lets compare the ratio of who purchased the Mini E and who didn’t.  

    to me, I think the article is more about range anxiety keeping people from buying pure electric cars in the first place.


  149. 149
    Bruce

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (9:50 am)

    Richard Petty: The Prius has a much higher top end speed than the Volt. All Toyota Prius’ (gen 1 thru 3) will absolutely blow the doors off a Volt on the highway. Be careful with that breakfast serial on the highway and move over quickly if you see a Prius rapidly approaching in your mirrors.- The King of Racing  (Quote)

    Volt will get the last laugh, when the Prius runs out of gas.


  150. 150
    Michael

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (10:14 am)

    David:
    to me, I think the article is more about range anxiety keeping people from buying pure electric cars in the first place.  

    Which is what I tried to say in comment #142.


  151. 151
    James

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (12:06 pm)

    There is alot of talk about range anxiety. The real issue is actually RANGE LIMITATION, and the psychology of the American public.

    People bought SUVs by the ton ( literally ), with their weight, AWD, high ground clearance, and the aerodynamics of a fence, for the “cool factor” and the psychology of “I could if I wanted to”. Studies show that 95% of SUVs never touch dirt, let alone off road. I’d venture to say 70% of SUVs never see more than a day or two of snow. So they bought them FOR WHAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF, not HOW THEY WILL ACTUALLY BE USED.

    Psychology and sociology obviously are huge parts in decision makers actually opening their checkbooks. EVs cannot become a major sector due to my aforemetioned point. The Volt is absolutely the right direction due to buyers feeling freedom to roam, unlimited range with our current gasoline infrastructure. NO RANGE LIMITATION. We’ll buy Volts for WHAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF.

    The Better Place plan with battery exchange stations dotting the landscape can succeed in smaller countries with governments willing to spend what it takes to quickly establish a network, and incentives to it’s citizenry to buy an EV with interchangeable battery pack. Seriously, does anybody truly see that happening in our USA?

    RECHARGE! James


  152. 152
    Chaim

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (12:50 pm)

    This study is skewed because the participants are already pre-selected to meet the range limitations of the mini cooper E. For the rest of us who are not porticipating in the mini cooper electric car study, range anxiety is important.


  153. 153
    Noel Park

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (1:15 pm)

    Range anxiety is real. Anybody who doesn’t believe it should talk to my wife, LOL. Maybe in 20 years there will be much improved batteries and public charging stations, and the BEV will take over. If so, so much the better. In the meantime, GM has it right. And they can put all of the knowledge and experience they are gaining into superior BEVs, if that happy day ever comes. So for now:

    LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!


  154. 154
    Kathryn Bigelow

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (1:19 pm)

    Schmeltz: If imitation is the greatest form of flattery, a number of other car companies are also adopting the EREV concept for their future platforms as well.If there was a naitonal public charging infrastructure available, that would be one thing, but there’s not at the moment.The Volt best and most pragmatically handles the issue of running out of electric in your EV.Side:They should have polled you Lyle!  

    Sounds like somebody is suffering from severe range anxiety. You might want to seek counseling for the condition you are in. After proper treatment you can join the rest of society which thankfully does not suffer from your unfortunate affliction. Hope you get well soon.


  155. 155
    Kathryn Bigelow

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (1:23 pm)

    Noel Park: Range anxiety is real.

    NOT ! You and people of your ilk probably believe in man-made global warming also.

    For christ sake please escape the reality distortion field you are living in man !


  156. 156
    prowler

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (4:30 pm)

    As I’ve said before, when you honestly evaluate your requirements and match the car to them, you win. All that this survey says is that when someone plops down $850/month for this car, they have properly evaluated their needs and concluded that they are met. The survey was about the range anxiety experience of EV drivers, not of the general population.

    Some experience that may be worth repeating:

    At the high level: When you match vehicle capabilities to your requirements, you’re going to win. The Tesla Roadster replaced my prowler in day-to-day use and has been 100% no compromise. In fact, it’s better – better performance, better in the snow and ice, better at driving past gas stations, minimal, if any, maintenance time or cost (check the tires and brakes, fill up the washer fluid – and the brakes may never wear out), superior driving experience (electric torque, not the supercar power factor), better control of speed (think-it and it happens, faster or slower, and no loss of .1 seconds to go from accelerator to brake with one-pedal driving), no exhaust fumes and totally clean with no grease accumulations under the hood.
    Downsides: I have the same #1 complaint as other Tesla owners – the windshield gets dirty. With no stops for gas, there’s no stops to clean the windshield. I have to remember to do this in my garage, it’s no longer keyed to fill-ups. #2: no more free car-washes every 7 fill-ups.
    The following early-adopter advantage/disadvantage will be short-lived and may or may not happen with GM or Nissan, but Tesla has been VERY RESPONSIVE with early owners. When Lotus had a recall due to the torque on the rear bearing plates (for the Lotus Elise and Tesla produced on the same assembly line), Tesla sent the techs to us – my recall was done in my garage. The tech also did a firmware upgrade and addressed a few other items (none due to the electric nature of the car, more of the nature of the prowler’s limited-production hand-built assembly process). The immediate reaction might be that a major manufacturer wouldn’t do this, but I believe they’re going to be VERY concerned to do whatever it takes to quickly fix ALL issues immediately and however required. In the early days of the prowler with it’s unique new aluminum chassis, Chrysler sent Alcoa techs to the owners, when necessary, to fix a weak spot in the chassis (one heroic story was about flying a tech to Australia). First-year owners are going to get white-glove first-class treatment.
    The fact that the prowler, my former daily driver for 9 years, has never been more than 100 miles from home causes no limitation in the 244 mile range.
    -SPARKZZ


  157. 157
    DaveP

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (4:53 pm)

    Herm:
    I would not have much anxiety with a long range BEV, about 100-150 miles by the EPA hwy cycle, 24-36kwh pack.It would be a good idea to have some sort of range extender.. I like the idea of that wankel Audi is talking about.. something tiny running off a canister of LPG. 10kw would be more than plenty for those rare occasions. A couple of gallons of LPG would be fine. Could also run a flameless heater for those of you in the nasty parts of the country.  

    I’ll freely admit I’m generally more anxious about a lot of things than probably most are. (I know Jackson suspects I’m expecting total collapse of everything sometime, but I’m actually not quite THAT bad, really :) )
    For 100 mpc, I’d definitely still want a generator on board. A Compressed Natural Gas based generator with a small amount of CNG on board would be kind of cool, too, especially if you could fill it at home with something like the Phil. Well, something a lot cheaper than the Phil would be a lot better. Still, hard to beat the liquid fuels for their convenience though because the widespread public delivery structure is already there.


  158. 158
    Bob G

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (5:16 pm)

    Range anxiety to me is simply the fear of being stranded. This fear is rational; I *have* run out of fuel and been stranded before, and it’s not a pleasant experience.

    I even feel range anxiety at times in my ICE vehicle (when I am low on fuel and there are no gas stations nearby). A BEV with existing technology would make the problem worse, since the range is generally less and there are no equivalent “gas stations” to recharge quickly on the road.

    With a BEV that has an advertised range of 100 miles, I would initially only feel comfortable driving it 25 miles from my home:

    100 miles of advertised range
    - 25 miles of marketing best-case exaggeration
    - 25 miles in reserve for the unexpected
    - 25 miles for the trip home
    ——–
    = 25 miles of range.

    My comfort level may increase with time and experience, but this still doesn’t make for a very practical mode of transportation.

    But with an EREV that has an advertised range of 40 miles, I’d feel just as comfortable on an all-day road trip as I would going to the local store. That’s because, even with such a short electric range, when the battery is depleted, I will not be stranded.


  159. 159
    West Coast Driver

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (5:38 pm)

    Range Anxiety beaten to death with small honda generator. Period!

    GO EV!!!


  160. 160
    Dr. Ibringdoh

     

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    Mar 8th, 2010 (11:01 pm)

    “The participants chosen for the UC study appear to be a very selected group who are likely to overlook any inconvenience in exchange for the cause of driving petroleum-free at all times.

    “To reach a mass audience appeal, however, range anxiety must be controlled. The Volt is the perfect solution.”

    So if the results of the study don’t support our presupposition, we conclude that the study to be flawed, and our presupposition to be factual.

    Fascinating!


  161. [...] his Mini E (which routinely gets only 60 miles per charge, apparently).  I read the article at GM-Volt. He points out that the study appears to have been pretty selective of its participants, all [...]


  162. 162
    Laura

     

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    Mar 10th, 2010 (12:27 am)

    I said all along that such anxiety has been proven to be a myth by Tesla. Just remember that today we have iPhones and instruments in the car which will tell you where is your next “plug”. (Oh, not so fast guys).

    Right you forget to charge at night… remember that companies out there are assembling machines to allow battery pack swaps. So it seems that could be an alternative to you? If you forget to power, run to the quickest station or call a 1800 number and have the emergency AAA truck come to your rescue. You will not forget it next time, right? It is not too bad, folks. Better than keep filling gas at those gas stations and sending money to Venezuela and Middle East.

    No need for Volt or other extended range thing. Keep it all electric and we will be better off.