After releasing some conceptual art a couple weeks ago, the public got its first chance to get a “taste of the future” from Opel in person at the Geneva auto show. GM bills the Flextreme GT/E as giving customers the ability “to enjoy zero CO2 driving emissions Opel-style “while illustrating that size doesn’t matter.”
As reported earlier at GM-Volt.com, the Flextreme GT/E is based on the same Voltec powertrain, featuring the same 16 kWh battery pack, 1.4l 4-cyl engine for extended range driving as the Volt, but with a slightly larger electric drive unit, rated at 120 kW. This is were the similarities end.
Seeing it in person, the Flextreme GT/E is big. Really big. In fact it is 4762mm long, (almost a foot longer than the Volt) and its wheelbase is over 114 inches, thats Cadillac STS territory, and it is just as wide. Like the Volt, and despite its size, the Flextreme seats four.
In the US, this E-REV would be classed at the very top end of the large family/mid-sized car segment, but in Europe, (where it would be theoretically sold) most cars in this segment are much smaller, it would certainly be classed as a full-size or large car. (The Volt at 4,500mm is right on the cusp of being a mid-size in the US…one mm less, and it is a compact).
But what of the range and spec forecasts? Since announcing the GT/E, another GM EREV (Cadillac Converj) was cancelled, and part of that reason was that range would have be halved due to the performance requirements and additional amenities, therefore you would expect a projected electric range on this car to be not dissimilar, maybe even less. (both use the same electric drive unit)
Not so. And here is where the line between concept and reality gets blurred. GM claims this car has the same 40 mile electric range as the Volt, can sprint from 0-60 in the 8 second-ish range, and of can go faster than 200 km/hr…all the while rolling on 195mm, 21″ tires. Yet the Converj could only go 20?
Working from what we know from the Volt, these performance specifications seem highly unlikely. The only place where the Flextreme has it over the Volt is the drag coefficient, which is a sparse .22 (which is helped by some very conceptual vertical fins that pop out when the car is travelling over 30mph to extend the tail). Side note: It also has no side mirrors…those pesky things are always messing up the drag.
For its part, Opel suggests the new concept “expresses its mission of offering accessible German engineering,” and is the “logical next step in Opel’s unfolding strategy for the electrification of the automobile”
From looking at the design and spec, logically I would say the first buyer of the Flextreme GT/E would come from the planned ‘mega city’ of San Angeles in the year 2032…and the glove box may or may not contain 3 mysterious seashells with instructions for people of that time on how to use them.
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (8:52 am)Gimme Gimme Gimme!
Seats 5! Gorgeous sleek styling!
It’s Perfect! I hope a version comes to the states.
+2
Mar 6th, 2010 (9:01 am)OK, so how DO you use the three seashells??? If it was 3 pine-cones, I’d have an idea…
The *Concept* car looks great on all levels. Is there a European version of gm-Volt.com? Lyle, maybe you could sell a franchise…
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (9:05 am)Does anyone know how many applicants Lyle got to come to NYC for the short drive experience?
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (9:07 am)I wouldn’t underestimate Frank Weber. He may turn out to be the next Lutz. Even if its a reality stretch at the moment, it shows great vision IMO. Vision is key when going to the next level and I think this concept combined with Weber’s accomplishment’s indicates a bright and *real* future.
+8
Mar 6th, 2010 (9:29 am)I find this picture of the Flexstreme very exciting!!
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (9:30 am)Yep, nice job on the styling. The roof treatment is cool. Like to see more pix!
+2
Mar 6th, 2010 (9:33 am)For most of the way through I thought this post was a remarkably positive one, considering the author, but then I saw the 3 seashells video and understood what he really thought
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (9:35 am)Looks good! Make some more Voltec GM!
Maybe the Volt SS will have the higher power motor. Just saying…
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (9:49 am)It sure is beautiful. I’ll take one tomorrow. How does the mising outside mirrors get compensated for. Does it have rear facing camers in the doors or what?
Take Care,
TED
+2
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:03 am)BillR, #5 – shame on you!
The car looks good too!
+2
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:07 am)Huh? Of course the car looks good. What were *you* looking at?
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:09 am)I was surprized by the tone of the writing and then the reference to the sea shells made me look to see who posted it. Very nice Statik!
Seriously, this is one heck of a car. I presume that it will not be terribly cheap. I’d say this makes up for the Converj.
I’d also say that it puts a dent in the silly “the volt battery is too big” drivvel.
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:11 am)It’s large enough to come with a person in the back seat, who tells you what’s behind you (g)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:13 am)With the recent personnel changes, I was worried that momentum on the Voltec platform was being lost. This is forward progress. And seems like there is room for more progress in the area of CD.
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:22 am)Ken, I really do hate to bust your bubble but “Like the Volt, and despite its size, the Flextreme seats four.” Non the less, its good to see Opel moving forward with another Voltec design.
Here are some more pictures of the Flextreme Gt E concept:
http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/opel-flextreme-gt-e-concept/
It’s likely GM sees the performance specifications possible by the time it becomes reality; in one or two years, we may see battery improvements which allow this large vehicle with its 120 Kw motor to get an AER of 40 miles.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:43 am)I haven’t heard anything about the 100 cutoff being reached, but may have missed it. It’s possible that a lot of people thought that they wouldn’t get in under the 100 entry limit, and didn’t enter!
I’m usually here a lot – everyday. Thursday was the first day in *weeks* that I had to work, so I didn’t even see the contest info until after work. On top of that, I had to get cleaned up to go elsewhere by 5, so I seriously considered not entering (or not showering). I knew I’d feel worse if I didn’t even TRY, but the piece I *did* send in was hurried at best. Shrug.
If I hadn’t heard that the max was reached and hadn’t entered yet, I’d definitely send something in. Nothing lost by trying! Anyone else see a “stop the submissions” post?
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:48 am)That was on me, I mistakenly referenced 5 in the post when it first went up, and thru the magic of a quick edit, that misinformation has now vanished. Sorry to get your hopes up Ken.
/it does still have 5 doors…does that count?
//full size 4 seater
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:49 am)I’m venturing, Ted, that they will see cameras and display the view of the rear on the consule.
Update: As I thought I have found an article that indicates the above is the case. Read it at:
http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2010/02/opel-flextreme-gt-e-concept/
The article gives numerous statistics on the exterior design. Two features that grab me right away, are:
the “glasshouse (to be) extended rearwards under the arching roof line, emphasizing the flowing lines of the side body. “; and
the vertical panels that “at speeds above 50 km/h, ……. extend(s) along the body from the air extraction slot behind each rear wheel-arch. These 350 mm-long side spoilers guide high-speed airflow around the rear corners of the car, further reducing the amount of turbulence.” contribute to the FlexTreme GT/E’s extremely low drag.
This excellent article (except for a couple of spelling errors) gives a great description of the car and full specifications.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:52 am)Hi Statik..
“Working from what we know from the Volt, these performance specifications seem highly unlikely. The only place where the Flextreme has it over the Volt is the drag coefficient, which is a sparse .22″
but that makes a huge difference!.. dont forget the both drag coefficient and frontal area are the main factors here. Perhaps they lowered the frontal area by lowering the height/width of the car? do you know?.. stretching it out would not affect it. We know weight has little effect on a Voltec EREV.
I get the impression that 120kw is the maximum power output of the battery, there are three ways GM can boost this for a larger car:
1. different cells, but I bet GM is really hesitant to certify a different cell/manufacturer
2. increase the size of the battery pack, that would proportionally increase both the range and power available from the battery.. and would not require new cells. I believe there is still room left in the T Pack for more cells, not sure.
3. run the genset when high power was needed, even if the battery is fully charged. For the first 40 miles you would have an added 50kw.. after that you would need the genset to keep the battery from dipping too low.
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:55 am)Shame on you statik!
Ken your forgiven. I would have guessed it was a five seater too, statik Must just be a Voltec thing that can’t be overcome without (F)extreme engineering changes. Thanks for your article, statik.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. Thanks for your article, statik.
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:58 am)LOL, I went BACK to reread the post and it had already been edited, so I thought that I’d misread it.
BTW, what’s the name of that movie. I remember seeing it years ago (and liking it), but forget the title.
TIA,
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:04 am)I had the same experience, Tagamet. Unfortunatley, with no time available I didn’t submit. Good luck to all who did and will submit; the absence of my submission will certainly increase your chances, albeit little.
. It would have worked out good for me, since my son graduates from college and I would have been up in New York around that time. But alas! Maybe I will get a chance at the Austin Auto Show.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:10 am)=========
Yea, I was afraid I was late since did not look email til noonish, but when I read all the “sorry I can’t make it” notes, decided it worth a short blub.
I too am a retarded enjuneer , worked 33 years in WPB, Fl at PW developing jet engines for the SR-71, F-15. F-16, and the defunct NASP. Not rocket engineering, but close enough ,maybe we’ll meet in NY Tag
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:18 am)Demolition Man
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:19 am)But if there hasn’t been a notice to stop submitting, why not submit NOW?
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:19 am)The electric drive unit produces 120 kW, 160 hp/370Nm according to the Opel media side and other outlets. (The Volt is reported at 111 kw, 149 hp…although curiously it started out at the same 120 number)
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:20 am)This.
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:20 am)First of all, color me REALLY impressed that statik went to Geneva to see the car. WOW. Nice job guy. Yes the size is impressive based on the specs but there is no substitute for seeing a car in person. However, even with the recent downdraft in the Euro, a few of those trips and you’re leaving your Volt over the Atlantic. LOL
On the performance side, it’s hard to say if the claims are crazy or not. Let’s look at each piece of he puzzle:
1. Tire size — probably not a big deal. While nasaman isn’t right that larger wheels have lower rolling resistance, he’s right that smaller wheels don’t necessarily have higher rolling resistance. Size is just one factor and usually not a determinative one. If you look at the statistics a few of the larger tires (18″) have some of the lowest rolling resistance coefficients.
2. Acceleration times — these will have mostly to do with mass and a little with the aero co-efficient. The Flexstreme is larger than the Volt but is it heavier? Lighter materials are a magic sauce for efficiency. Force = Mass X Acceleration. Work = Force X Distance. Power = Work / Time. So for the same power train your acceleration times are directly proportional to the mass. While we know that the Flexstreme is using lighter materials I’m not sure we’ve seen any specs on its mass. This would be a good Q to pop if you’re in Geneva!
The battery pack is also an unknown here. We know it’s 16 kWh. Could it house cells with a higher power density? The Volt cells are not great in regard to power density. Any improvement in the area could result in faster (not necessarily better) 0-60 times. Asking whether the cells are the same would be another good Q to pop while thinking about a jog around the Lake!
In this regard, note that the motor size, while about the same as the Volt’s, is not that relevant. Unlike a conventional ICE, which never in practice reaches it’s nominal output, a motor for short periods can output substantially more than its rated output. So the limits on speed are a function of the battery pack not the motor.
3. Top speed — this is usually set by the tires. Hard to know how fast the Volt would go. but it seems that it’s top speed would be about 110 MPH. Again, the motor would not be the limiting factor it would be the power density of the battery pack.
In this regard, so long as the tires were game a top speed of 200 KMH for the Flexstreme doesn’t seem unreasonable. A lower drag coefficient will have a huge impact on the top speed. It’s strictly linear. So if the Cd of a Volt is .22 and the Cd of the Flexstreme is .28, then other things being equal, the top speed of the Flexstreme would be about 231 KPH. (Assuming the Volt has a top speed of about 110 MPH or 181.5 KPH). But it’s unlikely that things are otherwise equal and of course you will have more drive train losses as the speed increases. Plus we don’t know how the frontal areas compare. But still, 200 KPH doesn’t seem crazy.
3. Range — the range is dependent on a few things. We know that the battery pack has the same energy as the Volt’s. So if the mass is the same then range is the same. Since we don’t know that it’s difficult to judge this claim.
The second very big wildcard here is the drive cycle. Put the same car on different drive cycles and you get very different MPG or, in the case of EV range, different ranges. Just as the Volt isn’t going to get a 40 mile range under the US06 drive cycle, it might get a better range on a more mild cycle. I believe that the standard European drive cycle is more mild than our combined EPA cycle, mostly because the Prius gets higher MPG in the UK which uses this cycle I believe. But asking what drive cycle was used in estimating the range would be the third great Q to ask if you were recovering from jet lag and couldn’t think of much else to do.
4. The Converj (RIP) — it’s hard to say. If you didn’t use lighter weight materials then the performance could take a hit. I doubt it would have been half but it could have moved the 0-60 times over nine seconds. Since my impression is that GM engineers stateside seem allergic to changing to lighter weight materials, as the Opel engineers have here, it’s hard to say. Generally I’d say that statik’s notion that the fiscal demands of the Opel restructuring trumped a more exotic car is probably about right.
Again, great on the spot reporting statik. Hope you’re on vacation and will add some fun things other than the car show!
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:23 am)From your lips, to God’s ear!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:25 am)Oh yeah! Thanks, EC!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:27 am)Lost me. This *what*?
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:27 am)The Flextreme GT/E is a good looking concept. The roof cutout with solid header is distinctive. Could see the rear section being styled down to balance with the quiet front section.
One step closer to a small SUV?
=D-Volt
BTW:As previously mentioned here at gm volt dot com. Can GM design some sort of front inset area for the license plate? Sticking a flat strip of metal on either the front or rear of these new EV is just wrong.
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (11:38 am)3. “run the genset when high power was needed, even if the battery is fully charged.”
Now you’re talking-
Called up by a need for speed Icon on the display.
Mar 6th, 2010 (12:02 pm)“The concept also aggressively goes after weight savings with extensive use of carbon fiber, although Opel isn’t specifying a mass for this one-off concept. What they are specifying is fuel consumption of 147 miles per gallon (U.S.). How they came to this number remains as mysterious as the magical 230 mpg touted last year for the Volt.”
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/03/geneva-2010-opel-flextreme-gt-e-concept/
I’ve searched many articles before finding this one and its statement that they aren’t specifying it. So this is clearly just a concept with many questions remaining to be answered.
It does say a lot about the direction GM as a whole is headed. No external mirrors will increase performance and drivers won’t need to move their heads around to be sure there are no impediments before moving out from a parked position. The glass window design will also contribute to visibility. It just downright Kool!
I would say there is a lot that can be questioned about the FlexTreme GT/E’s performance. The figures given are estimates. But isn’t this all about capturing the public’s attention? I know this is one concept that I will be following. It’s all very exciting!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (12:05 pm)I’ve heard that elecric motors are more efficient as they get bigger. Also, am I going to be the only one that points out the elephant in the room? Why are they making a full size car in Europe where they think driving a Smart car is perfectly normal, and the US gets the compact which would be a good size car over there?
Mar 6th, 2010 (12:06 pm)VELCRO maybe? Seriously, I think it’d work.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (12:13 pm)Maybe it will remain a Concept car.
I have several other explanations, but all would take us *way* off topic.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (12:16 pm)Can anyone help me understand what Statik meant at post #27?
TIA.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (12:28 pm)===============
Nope, made no sense to my ol’brain. He is our only hope I think of clearing up what he meant!
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (12:37 pm)I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand. The mass is logically not as critical as cd since even though it takes more power to accelerate, it generates a big part of that on deceleration. The cd is significantly lower and the frontal profile is maybe not that different since length is not counted. Reduction in rolling resistance and drag coupled with mode efficient regenerative braking could make this possible. My main question involves the comparative efficiency of different sizes electric motors. Is a 120 kW motor any less efficient than a 100 kW motor if both are moving the same vehicle along at a constant speed of 55 mph, or accelerating from 40 to 60 in say 5 seconds?
Mar 6th, 2010 (12:47 pm)LRGVProVolt,
I had read elsewhere that it sat four, but I could swear this post said five this morning. Either wishful thinking or it got edited
Well, by the time it actually ships four will probably be enough
Mar 6th, 2010 (12:48 pm)I dont’ know about ‘San Angeles’, but it should do well in Seattle…. Look at the size of those rain gutters!
Mar 6th, 2010 (12:56 pm)Sorry, guess I shouldn’t have left you hanging, but Harvey’s is running their Mushroom Swiss Angus burger commercials again, and I heeded the call. I’m not a big fast food guy; but it is delicious, especially I days when I am to lazy to fire up the grill.
I would say that you should feel free to submit until Lyle says otherwise. As you say…why not keep submitting? Can’t hurt at all, (=
Mar 6th, 2010 (1:07 pm)omnimoeish, I would guess that Opel was working on a larger size car with its typical design appeal while GM continued to work on the Volt. which it had started on first. The FlexTreme GT/E is really for the U.S. market, IMHO. It’s just that Opel came in on the end and worked on a larger size vehicle; while U.S. engineers worked on the Volt, European engineers worked on the appearance of the Ampera, Volt’s sister car, to appeal to their customers, leaving their remaining engineers with something to do. It’s a natural that they would go up in size with their effort so use the Voltec drive train to bring out a new vehicle. Note that GM had planned early on to do a E-REV Cadilac Converj but now that they have dropped that plan, we will likely see the Opel FlexTreme GT/E or variant come to the States. The idea of showing concept cars is intended to get the public reaction to the proposed design to measure its appeal. The Japanese have nothing over GM as far as design is concerned, as evidenced by this concept. This news reveals the direction GM is headed in its effort to increase the AER of its E-REVs.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. Note the different contraction E-REV of EREV is being used by Opel. This looks like an effort to accentuate the Flex concept (FlexTreme GT/E!?!) They are electric vehicles of the Flex fuel type. REV – Range Extended Vehicles – can have batteries; E85, gasoline, possibly diesel engines,;or a variety of fuel cells. This approach distinguishes the Flex Fuel vehicles from others. It will be difficult for other manufacturers to use marketing phrases similar to Flex Fuel in vehicles like the Volt, Ampera, etc’, IMHO.
Mar 6th, 2010 (1:21 pm)FLEXTREME proves GM Leadership sandbagging better VOLT performance. And as pointed out in this article, FLEXTREME approximates CONVERJ size. So why was CONVERJ shut down? Somethings bound to come along. Just this week Planar Energy (Fla.) claimed to have developed a solid-state electrolyte that’ll improve Li-ion dramatically – 200%-300%. At some point, one of these claims will be real. A hypothetical. Let’s for the L of it say Planar’s claim is. Let’s assume Specific Energy improvement of 250%, in the middle of their improvement claim. However, Planar claims their Li-ion sustainable from 10% to 90% charge over 100,000 charges! Upping usable power from 50% (30%-80%) to 80%. This equates to 140 mile range. Now given the larger available space in the FLEXTREME and CONVERJ – being luxury models – we’ll simply double the battery factor. Now we have a 280 mile range and 20 year life. If reports are accurate the FLEXTREME ER is 40 mpg. A 20 gal. tank and VOILA! 1000+ range – then gas prices plunge below $2 gal.
Mar 6th, 2010 (1:25 pm)FLEXTREME proves GM Leadership sandbagging better VOLT performance. And as pointed out in this article, FLEXTREME approximates CONVERJ size. So why was CONVERJ shut down? Somethings bound to come along. Just this week Planar Energy (Fla.) claimed to have developed a solid-state electrolyte that’ll improve Li-ion dramatically – 200%-300%. At some point, one of these claims will be real. A hypothetical. Let’s for the L of it say Planar’s claim is. Let’s assume Specific Energy improvement of 250%, in the middle of their improvement claim. However, Planar claims their Li-ion sustainable from 10% to 90% charge over 100,000 charges! Upping usable power from 50% (30%-80%) to 80%. This equates to 140 mile range. Now given the larger available space in the FLEXTREME and CONVERJ – being luxury models – we’ll simply double the battery factor. Now we have a 280 mile range and 20 year life. If reports are accurate the FLEXTREME ER is 40 mpg. A 20 gal. tank and VOILA! 1000+ range – then gas prices plunge below $2 gal. What’s more, a VOLT with that kind of performance could then offer a battery only version making an ER ICE an option.
Mar 6th, 2010 (1:26 pm)Thanks! At least it wasn’t *just* me. (g). Maybe statik will clarify at some point.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (1:29 pm)How long do you think it would take GM to qualify these cells for a production car?.. my guess two years of manufacturers data and two more years of GM testing data.
Mar 6th, 2010 (1:31 pm)Sooner than one might think! It’s now 4 (the magic of editing).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (1:36 pm)There used be link to Electric vehicles on this site ..Dont find it now ..If someone could post the link to that site I will aprecaite … ty for your help
Pat
Mar 6th, 2010 (1:41 pm)Sounds like to 100 may not have been met yet. Not that I enter contests much (read never), but isn’t it a given that it’s one entry per member? Seems like it’d make the judging *really* easy if they closed the contest when, say, 10 entries had arrived (lol). I’m definitely not rooting for that, because I didn’t get to enter until very late in the day.
Thanks for clarifying, statik.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
/you cut your post short to get a *burger*??? (g)
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (1:52 pm)I’m guessing they opened the window up on the battery from 8kwh to possibly 10kwh.
Mar 6th, 2010 (1:58 pm)In the picture at the top, I dont see turn signals or reverse lights?
Mar 6th, 2010 (1:59 pm)#19 Car? What car? Is there a car in that photo somewhere? +1
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:01 pm)…And thus, it begins…
+3
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:02 pm)The car is the one with the *small* headlights.
HTH
Tagamet
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:20 pm)One more “concept” does nothing for me. Let alone bigger, which is the wrong way to go, IMHO. Better aero and lightweight materials are very cool, but I would much rather see them applied to something smaller, so as to increase the Prius fighter efficiency bragging rights. At this point my comment is:
LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:22 pm)CONCEPT CARS just don’t do much for me at all. Some concepts do get you to try to peer into the future – as they have already been announced to be highly developed and near production, as with the Honda Insight and CR-V concepts – where, like the current Volt show cars ( with larger wheels, rubber and a bit more stylish body than the (pre-) production version ) they’re just slightly more eye-catching due to flourishes intended to grab the eye of the car show goer and hungry photographers.
The Flextreme appears to me to be only a first conceptual showpiece. I remember being so excited about the first Volt concept. It, like this Flextreme, was kind of “pie-in-the-sky” technohype, but when GM started running huge ads in major magazines describing it’s workings, I thought….”what if”… And now here we are with at least a few thousand totally redesigned production models set to fly the nest.
I think this Flextreme is another “what if”. With the Volt, I think the end result is much more appealing to the eye than the original concept-not to mention tons more aerodynamic and attractive IMO.
Interesting to ponder what a “real” Flextreme may look like. BUT NOT THAT interesting. lol
RECHARGE! James
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:22 pm)#56
Oh yeah, I see it now, LOL. +1 Looks like a very high performance unit, as my old pal Larry McGill always used to say. The car too, I hope.
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:24 pm)I’m with you on the very cool part but unfortunately, assuming the Flexstreme made it to production, this is one of those features that would be left on the cutting room floor. The cameras would be expensive and some jurisdictions as a legal matter require mirrors. FWIW Boniface claimed the mirrors on the Volt were “Cd” neutral (or something like that) so they may not make that much of a difference in the drag coefficient.
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:33 pm)Recovering 60% of the energy lost to the increased mass would be very good. It would easily be less. Moreover, if the issue is performance not range then regen matters not at all. If you are power limited by the battery pack, which you are, doubling the mass doubles the 0-60 times. Even if you could recover 100% of the energy used through regen, which is impossible, this wouldn’t change the 0-60 times by even a fraction of a second.
The motors aren’t the issue. The issue is the battery pack.
-1
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:37 pm)The cars FUGLY.
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:37 pm)Well, your other buddy Larry (Moi) has yet to see one of those high performance units that was *either* low cost or low maintenance. Then again, these will eventually be benefits of electrification.
Be well,
Tagamet
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:44 pm)Yes, and about 6 months ago Bob Lutz spoke of the “wind tunnel neutral” mirrors in detail on the initial aero walk around of the Volt. Bob also explained the reasons for the rear spoiler lip and the squared off trailing edge of the Volt.
Was surprised to see stock looking mirrors on the Cruze during the L.A. Auto Show.
Cruze mirror:
Camaro mirror:
Volt mirror:
=D-Volt
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:49 pm)Does anyone here know (or want to guess) what %age of Concept cars actually make it to a dealership? Before the Volt, I’d never followed Concepts – more interested in what is currently available. *Now* Concepts are more meaningful to me, in that I know that it is at least *possible* that they may actually be built.
Guesses? Actual facts? Anyone?
Be well,
Tagamet
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:49 pm)Noel, I’d go the other way and worry about drag and mass while not worrying about the size. Mass and drag matter for efficiency. Size (length) only matters for things like fitting into parking spaces, turning around in tight spaces, and fitting into garages.
I’d love to see the weight for the Flexstreme. Assuming the Flexstreme doesn’t weigh any more than the Prius, which I’m doubting it does, my guess is that if you put the same drive train in both vehicles the Flexstreme would beat the Prius like a drum — if the .22 Cd is for real you’d be looking at highway mileage around 65 MPG. And you could get that increase even if the Flexstreme weighed more.
VW claims the UpLite will get 70 MPG combined and it doesn’t have a battery (and probably not a Cd of .22)! Of course that 70 MPG is with diesel fuel which is more energy dense than gasoline but still …..
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:51 pm)Very nice and interesting comparison.
Mar 6th, 2010 (2:52 pm)#63
True that!! Kind of like a racing car or motorcycle. Ten hours of maintenance for every hour of racing. If you’re lucky, LOL. But well worth it in terms of thrills and adrenaline rush.
Mar 6th, 2010 (3:01 pm)#66
Well it’s not very big, LOL.
As you know, I’m right there with you on the issue of mass. It’s just that my sense of the world is that, given a certain level of materials technology, smaller equates to less mass. Also less “A” in the “CdA”. Thus the Uplite, which weighs what, 900 pounds? With a pretty small “A” as well, it would appear.
As to “wind tunnel neutral” mirrors, I’m having a bit of trouble with that idea. They may have a real low Cd, but they still have a A.
Mar 6th, 2010 (3:13 pm)Daaaammn. Get that model in the USA ASAP! That one will attract a lot of people that find the current model kinda dull looking.
Mar 6th, 2010 (3:17 pm)It’s the given level of technology. Lighter weight materials would make a world of difference. On the A or frontal area, this is the height and width not the length of the vehicle. The Flexstreme is low and long, and the long part doesn’t hurt at all. In fact it can help if it keeps the turbulence down.
The UpLite is really a lightweight but I think it weighs more like 1750 pounds rather than 900. Maybe you’re remember 900 kg? And yes it’s small. However, small doesn’t mean aerodynamic. There have been many surprises from the wind tunnel. The more testing they do the more counter intuitive things — like sharp edges creating less turbulence than round edges — they find. If the .22 Cd is for real, the Flexstreme might be, and probably is, more aerodynamic than the UpLite! (and I really like what VW has done with the UpLite!).
On the mirrors I think they’re just referring to the Cd not the A. The A would be minor. But having said this, I don’t understand how the Cd would be neutral. Beats me. Beyond my pay grade as they say.
Mar 6th, 2010 (3:24 pm)Found the areo walk around clip of 6 months ago. This day was a big deal here at gm volt dot com. Up to this point we had seen just 1/2 of the nose section.
http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=bob+lutz+volt&b=37&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701&tnr=21&vid=0001333064946
The pre production Volt is upgraded in design and style even further. I expect a surprise or two in the final released version. Inside and out.
=D-Volt
Mar 6th, 2010 (3:33 pm)Ding!
We have a winner! This was my guess as well. I think it’s safe for them to assume a concept today could become production somewhere around 2013/2014 and that their cell technology will have improved by then to allow a larger charge window. I think 80% would be a little high still, maybe more like 70%.
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (3:51 pm)Statik gets a +1 for the Demolition Man movie clip!
Maybe a future concept car will let you say, “Auto-drive.” while driving, and then you’ll hear a lovely woman’s voice come over the speakers that says, “Auto-drive engaged.”
GM did provide the cars you see driving around in that movie, after all!
http://wiki.gmnext.com/wiki/index.php/How_Many_Ultralite_Concept_Vehicles_Were_There
+1
Mar 6th, 2010 (4:21 pm)#74
That’s what I’m talking about, LOL. +1
Mar 6th, 2010 (4:29 pm)#71
Well, on reflection, I guess I’m just sort of venting my own particular prejudices anyway. One of my great ideas was a Lotus Elise size and weight Corvette with the Cobalt SS turbo 4 in the back. Oh man, what a rocket, never mind the world class handling. Boy did that ever get me flamed by the Corvette faithful, LOL.
So I guess I really hope that they sell a million of these things at 50K/copy, or whatever they cost, and make a whole bunch of money. That would be the best possible outcome for all of us, and who am I to say otherwise.
LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!
Mar 6th, 2010 (5:02 pm)“This” as a one-word comment response:
It’s a shorthand web-speak way of saying “This is exactly what I think/would have said”.
So, statik, what is your Fark handle (or are you just another occasional lurker, like me)?
Mar 6th, 2010 (5:06 pm)Actually, is there any reason why they should strive to meet a 10 year / 100K mile warranty requirement in Europe? Do they have an equivalent requirement over there, or none at all?
Mar 6th, 2010 (5:18 pm)Better yet, get some designers in the USA (who can replace the local GM Blandification Board that has styling priority now), turn them loose on Voltec or dedicated hybrid (plug-in 2-mode only) models, and leave Plain Vanilla for the older ICE-only technology.
You should reward the behavior you want …
PS:
What did the fish say when he ran into a concrete wall?
Daaaamm!
Mar 6th, 2010 (5:38 pm)OT: Just (by accident) went to another Volt site and noticed a posting claiming that GM was considering selling the Volt in Japan next year. Sounds weird to me, but what do I know?
Mar 6th, 2010 (6:00 pm)Thanks, ZT,
Didn’t know that, so I’ve learned something today.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (6:03 pm)There’s another Volt site? Huh, go figure.
Doesn’t Japan have all sorts of trade barriers for vehicles?
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (7:50 pm)Hmmm… In some ways I liked the original, smaller, more understated Opel/Saturn Flextreme a bit better. I saw it in bright red at the NY Autoshow 2 yrs ago —gorgeous! The recent Ampera retains several of the styling cues this original concept first exhibited. And interestingly, the stretched GT/E Flextreme featured here (it’s “really big”as Statik suggests) still retains greatly downsized versions of the “boomerang” headlights (even as tail lights) that I liked:
Mar 6th, 2010 (8:01 pm)PS: I just don’t like the GT/E’s large, essentially non-functional grill. So I’m sorry, Audi, but your massive grills on the newest models are repulsive to me. It must be that I want “form to follow function”, whether its a car or a spaceship. BTW, notice the tiny “mirrors” housing cameras
Mar 6th, 2010 (8:08 pm)STATIK
I’d have to struggle to get farther off topic, but I hope that you weren’t there “practicing” for your tourney:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8553943.stm
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Mar 6th, 2010 (8:57 pm)GREAT LOOKING VEHICLE!!
GO EV !!!
Mar 6th, 2010 (10:59 pm)Statik,
Thanks for fessing up on the five seats!
Hey here is a video from Geneva showing the GT/E next to the Ampera and is doesn’t look so big.
Definitely much lower!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQeNosd1XIg
Mar 7th, 2010 (12:32 am)I’m omnipresent.
I gladly own my mistakes, (=
Nope, thats EPT…not my thing. I actually don’t play that much poker, lol. I just go for the insanity of Vegas in the summer. Crazy story though.
They were playing down the main event to 9 at the time. I heard they cancelled the smaller tournament, but finished out the full structure of the main event about 3 hours later.
Mar 7th, 2010 (12:57 am)“Marla Singer’s Laundry”
Mar 7th, 2010 (6:00 am)So maybe the fins on 50s cars had a practical purpose too.
Mar 7th, 2010 (8:54 am)Tag:
Here is a site that talks about concept cars:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept_vehicle
Some make it to production, but almost none make it without major changes.
Production Intent vehicles come alot closer. The 2001 Crossfire is an example where not too much was changed from the vehicle that was shown at the auto show.
Flextreme GT/E? I really like it, but it will never be produced looking like that IMHO………..
NPNS
Mar 7th, 2010 (11:22 am)Can’t comment Euro-wide, but in the UK, certainly not. I’ve just had to pay to replace the fuel pump in a 3 year and 4 month old car, that’s only covered 35K (a Vauxhall Vectra). Some manufacturers now offer 5 or 7 year warranties (which i assume in the small print mention it’s drivetrain only after year three) but for the rest 3 years/60,000 miles is all you get.
Mar 7th, 2010 (11:43 am)Saturn Aura ~ Opel Flextreme
=D-Volt
Mar 7th, 2010 (2:31 pm)Thanks Statik for the Geneva video. I have to say that after seeing the turntable spin and getting some angles in that light- I’m rather repulsed by the Flextreme GT/E Concept. Too busy, too many tricky upsweeps and body creases. Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and many have stated how much they like it. I’ve been drawing cars all my life, and as a cartoonist and artsy type at heart – I have gagged over the years at some of GM stylist’s work. I’ve never been a big fan of “badge engineering” and a company’s staid pattern of plastering plastic cladding and eyesore grills onto it’s products to clue the public in to it’s brand heritage.
I like the Volt’s look alot. I drive a Prius, and unlike many, I feel it’s aero priority looks aren’t homely at all, in fact, rather sporty. The Volt clings to brand identity ( The company grill – canted and mostly flush ), the GM hood crease down the center and other recognizable flourishes – at least they were able to accomplish this while simultanously acheiving low drag. By the way, the “aero nuetral” mirrors pictured on Lutz’s video and Dave’s photos are now nearly identical to the Cruze’s albeit for the turn signal lense with that interesting tip sticking out on the end. I’d venture to say they’re no longer aero nuetral.
I found Lutz’s video funny too, in that he mentions the aero wheels, when production models will not be direction specific – so the flat sides of one side will spin towards the wind, while the aero angled sides on the other side of the car will slice the wind. I hate it when automakers do that to save money, but it’s understandable – being that it has to stay at price-point.
RECHARGE! James
Mar 8th, 2010 (10:06 am)For me it’s very sad story. It is absolutely clear that GM is pulling back from Voltec at least on European market. GM and Opel is jumping from “Production” model of “Opel Ampera” to the sh…. “Concept model”. If somebody thinks me too pessimistic – correct me. I think Statik would support me.
Mar 9th, 2010 (3:22 am)Man, that is a great looking car. So amazing compared to the Volt. Why does the US always get the watered down homogenized version of everything?
I also was officially told at the Detroit Auto Show the Volt will NOT have a sunroof.
Mar 9th, 2010 (9:12 am)And bring the car over, too!
Mar 10th, 2010 (11:18 am)GM ha estado a punto de palmarla por la gran crisis, si LLEGA A PERDER A SU SOCIO EUROPEO OPEL que es quien le reporta y da una gran cantidad de tecnología y sabiduria, HOY LAS MARCAS COMO CHEVY CADILLAC Y DEMAS serian historia…… si no miren en los EEUU los autos mas vendidos son los japoneses y europeos, entre ellos LEXUS Y BMW, POR ALGO SERA.