Feb 23

Chevy Volt Cold Weather Testing Update

 

[ad#post_ad]We learned that GM has been testing several Chevy Volt preproduction vehicles in extreme winter conditions in Kapuskasing Ontario, where temperatures have been ranging from minus 40 to minus 5 degrees Celsius in winter.

Teams have actually been up there for several months looking at performance both from a battery and range perspective, as well as durability and control on snowy roads.

Voltec engineer Pam Fletcher and Volt chief engineer Andre Farah took some questions from the web, and offered some video responses. Some interesting facts were learned.

Range

GM has long stated they intend for the Volt to obtain up to 40 miles of electric range in most driving circumstances.  Though Bob Lutz recently told reporters he only got 28 miles of winter range with his driving behavior, the Volt team insists longer cold-weather ranges would be possible.

Farah notes that even in very cold winter temperatures its still possible to hit 40 miles of EV range, and says ranges “anywhere from from 32 to 40 without difficulty” are likely depending on drivers preferences for cabin heating.  Accessory electric draw for cabin heating, and excessive power demands from aggressive driving style will reduce range.

Power

It is well known that lithium ion batteries tend to lose power in cold temperatures.  Sub-optimally managed batteries in some electric cars, like the MINI E, experience a drop in acceleration and top speed performance in very cold weather.  According to Fletcher and Farah this will not be the case in the Volt.  They state there will be no loss of power in cold temperature, and that the car is designed to achieve the same specs in EV mode and range extended mode across the entire temperature spectrum.

Engine Preheating
An advantage the Volt has over pure EVs is that when its very cold, the batteries can be heated using the gas generator.  If the car is plugged in it will condition the battery using grid energy, if it is not, and its very cold, 30 degrees below 0, the generator will go on at the outset.  Cabin temperature can be pre-programmed or set via mobile phone app to warm the car using grid energy as well.

Farah stated he learned that if that cars were soaked in the cold temperatures outside overnight, the batteries did not drop fully to the outdoor temperature.

He also noted that from a very cold start after the ICE goes on to warm the battery, roughly within 3 miles it will be warm enough to allow the engine to turn off.

Battery Life
It was also mentioned that cold temperature operation is not expected to reduce battery longevity. Farah said heat will have a negative impact on battery life, the extent of which Farah said GM is still determining “exactly what that is,” because its hard to test longevity versus temperature using laboratory models.

Traction
They noted Volt snow traction is very successful, though Farah was able to get one Volt stuck with severe “limit case testing” on a snowy road. It had to be towed.  These limit cases are what the engineers test, but Farah indicates these are not scenarios everyday drivers would expect to encounter.
[ad#postbottom]

This entry was posted on Tuesday, February 23rd, 2010 at 7:14 am and is filed under Environment. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 266


  1. 1
    CMull

    +7

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CMull
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:22 am)

    Great article. Thanks Lyle!

    The only comment that bothers me (being from the south) is this: “Farah said heat will have a negative impact on battery life, the extent of which Farah said GM is still determining “exactly what that is,” because its hard to test longevity versus temperature using laboratory models.”

    Being from the south, we have summer temps in the low 100′s. WHEN I get my Volt, I plan to keep it garaged, but it will definitely face the heat elements…so I hope they get this negative impact worked out!

    Go Volt!


  2. 2
    Rashiid Amul

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Rashiid Amul
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:23 am)

    This is good.

    But I have the same thoughts as CMull about summer temperatures. Or permanent summer temperatures.


  3. 3
    Jim Heaton

    +5

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jim Heaton
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:24 am)

    Internal combustion enfines are usually very efficient at producing heat. When you are using the engine to heat the car, plus charge the batteries, what is the total efficiency?


  4. 4
    Tagamet

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:29 am)

    Other than the question mark about extreme warm conditions (sorry Tx guy) everything sounded darn good! I wonder if the preconditioning from the plugin source is extreme and really spins the electric meter? Even so, it’d be great to have a “preconditioned” vehicle to slide into when it’s 30 below outside (I’ve seen wind chills down there, but not ambient temps in PA).
    Good morning!
    Tagamet


  5. 5
    JohnK

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    JohnK
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:31 am)

    Yes, even though the initial temperatures were only -5 Celsius the first day or so it is good to hear that they are getting useful data. Also it is good to get relatively new information. And it appears to be favorable, good range in cold weather.


  6. 6
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:35 am)

    Jim Heaton: Internal combustion enfines are usually very efficient at producing heat. When you are using the engine to heat the car, plus charge the batteries, what is the total efficiency?  

    The way I read it, the combined efficiencies were not addressed – or is that something that you were curious about? Good question, but I’d think that if the battery was conditioned by the wall outlet, the engine would mostly be used for cabin heat? Maybe I’m assuming too much there though.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  7. 7
    Bruce

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Bruce
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:35 am)

    I live in S. Florida and batteries don’t last long. I just changed the battery on my Hybrid Saturn VUE after only one year (and without that battery performance is HORRIBLE). Please update us in the south


  8. 8
    BillR

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    BillR
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:43 am)

    I guess “Extended Range” can also be interpreted to mean “Extended Range of Ambient Temperature”.

    This is another beauty of the E-REV design. Electrical energy, as stored in the battery pack, can very efficiently propel the Volt down the road. I consider this to be a form of “high grade” energy. Low grade energy can be in the form of heat from the engine, traction motor, or friction brakes. It is still energy, but not in a very useful form for vehicle propulsion.

    From my viewpoint, it is best to use electrical energy for propulsion, while reserving lower grades of energy for cabin heat or battery heat. This can be achieved by using the chemical energy in the liquid fuel (gasoline or E85) to make both electricity and heat needed for the battery pack and the cabin.

    I would like to see the ICE actually run more often in cold weather to provide heat, and not dip so much into the battery pack for this function (resistance heating). After all, most of the grid energy is produced by coal, nuclear, or natural gas power plants, and all these plants reject large quantities of heat in their process. So from an overall energy utilization perspective, I believe it will be more efficient at low ambient temperatures to use the ICE to produce both heat and electricity.


  9. 9
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:45 am)

    Maybe this has been covered before, but can the plugin or genset PRE-cool the battery?
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    /is the site slow already?


  10. 10
    Jim I

    +5

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jim I
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:47 am)

    This is more like it!!!!

    Ask a question, and get a reasonable answer.

    OK, it sounds like cold weather is not a deal breaker problem for the Volt, and that is great!

    Now we need a similar update for the hot weather, as that one comment was a bit scary.

    Does anyone know if any part of the battery pack thermal management system works when the car is parked, or is it only active when the car is plugged into the grid or when it is being driven? I would think that if the car was sitting outside my office on a really hot day and not plugged in, that some fans might kick on if the pack’s temperature sensors rose to a certain point. But I don’t think I have ever heard anything definite on this.

    Good topic today!

    :-)

    NPNS


  11. 11
    JohnK

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    JohnK
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:51 am)

    We know that the Volt has been tested in Death Valley, but little has been made public about that. It would appear that places like Arizona, Texas, and any number of southern states could be a serious challenge. Sounds like good subject matter for several new postings over the coming months. I feel pretty certain that Lyle (and us folks) will not forget this and will keep after the needed information.
    I DID find it revealing that Andrew noted that in regard to heat there were differences between “laboratory temperature testing” and real world hot testing. Evidently that is not so for cold testing.


  12. 12
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:03 am)

    Bruce: I live in S. Florida and batteries don’t last long. I just changed the battery on my Saturn VUE after only one year (and without that battery performance is HORRIBLE).Please update us in the south  

    After ONE year? OUCH! Was it still under warranty? I hope that they aren’t underselling *how* bad the heat will be on the Volts’ battery! If it was bad on batteries in general, wouldn’t the LEAF have been released in more moderate climes? Especially since it has little of the TLC treatment the Volts’ battery gets.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  13. 13
    Exp_EngTech

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Exp_EngTech
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:05 am)

    Bruce: I live in S. Florida and batteries don’t last long. I just changed the battery on my Hybrid Saturn VUE after only one year (and without that battery performance is HORRIBLE). Please update us in the south  (Quote)

    Down South especially, conventional lead acid batteries do take a beating from the mechanical stresses of temperature extremes in the summer.

    Could you share some details of how GM / Saturn is handling this ?
    Have you heard of any other local Vue owners having the same issue ?

    At 1 year …. sounds like a manufacturing defect. Not high temp accellerated wear and tear.

    “Energy to power the motors comes from a 1.8 kWh, 300V nickel-metal hydride battery pack, which consists of 22 nickel metal hydride modules and is packaged behind the second-row seat below the cargo floor.”

    http://jalopnik.com/343835/detroit-auto-show–2009-saturn-vue-green-line-2-mode-hybrid


  14. 14
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:07 am)

    Jim I: This is more like it!!!!Ask a question, and get a reasonable answer.OK, it sounds like cold weather is not a deal breaker problem for the Volt, and that is great!Now we need a similar update for the hot weather, as that one comment was a bit scary.Does anyone know if any part of the battery pack thermal management system works when the car is parked, or is it only active when the car is plugged into the grid or when it is being driven?I would think that if the car was sitting outside my office on a really hot day and not plugged in, that some fans might kick on if the pack’s temperature sensors rose to a certain point.But I don’t think I have ever heard anything definite on this.Good topic today!
    NPNS  

    You’re always so GROUCHY in the morning! (lol) What did you get yesterday? When I checked it was at +20! (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  15. 15
    prowler

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:07 am)

    I believe we came to this conclusion before: heat reduces the life of Li-ion batteries, cold reduces its performance. If the Volt gets 40 miles AER at “neutral” temperatures (not hot, not cold), how does it get 40 in the cold? I don’t believe it unless they’re willing to go to a lower SOC.

    The question was asked above if battery warming will occur when parked in the cold and not plugged in. If not (no warming during park), will the regen brakes work after being parked outside in the cold all day and not plugged in? This would reduce the AER in the cold.


  16. 16
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:12 am)

    Exp_EngTech:
    Down South especially, conventional lead acid batteries do take a beating from the mechanical stresses of temperature extremes in the summer.Could you share some details of how GM / Saturn is handling this ?
    Have you heard of any other local Vue owners having the same issue ?At 1 year …. sounds like a manufacturing defect. Not high temp accellerated wear and tear.“Energy to power the motors comes from a 1.8 kWh, 300V nickel-metal hydride battery pack, which consists of 22 nickel metal hydride modules and is packaged behind the second-row seat below the cargo floor.”http://jalopnik.com/343835/detroit-auto-show–2009-saturn-vue-green-line-2-mode-hybrid  

    Thanks for that info EET. That’s comforting about an apples and almonds comparison. Too early for those very different battery chemistry to have dawned on me. +1
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  17. 17
    Tagamet

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:16 am)

    prowler: The question was asked above if battery warming will occur when parked in the cold and not plugged in. If not (no warming during park), will the regen brakes work after being parked outside in the cold all day and not plugged in? This would reduce the AER in the cold.

    Maybe that’s why he ended up in a ditch! (just kidding, but that WOULD reduce AER). Help me out – Why wouldn’t regen brakes work in the cold?
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  18. 18
    Tagamet

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:21 am)

    BillR: I guess “Extended Range” can also be interpreted to mean “Extended Range of Ambient Temperature”.

    Naw, then it’d be an ERAT. :-)
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  19. 19
    Dmitrii

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dmitrii
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:24 am)

    T -40C and -40F is almost the same :)

    Good news today – Volt (& other future electric cars) can operate in cold climate.


  20. 20
    Bruce

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Bruce
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:24 am)

    Just more unnecessary testing that we could be doing. I’ve never driven a perfect car, and I’m not sure I would want to. Since more than likely, GM is going to maintain ownership of the batteries anyway, why not let us do the testing? With an onboard blackbox type recording device, they could analyze the conditions after the fact. They’re just hogging all the fun.


  21. 21
    Neil

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Neil
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:27 am)

    If it is one thing these articles have done for me it is to help me appreciate the degree of detail these engineers go to in developing a vehicle. As a software programmer I’m used to detail but even I don’t go into the precision these guys do. I really respect that. And even after I get (likely) my Fusion Hybrid next week I’m still planning on a Volt for the next car I get.


  22. 22
    kdawg

    +5

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    kdawg
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:33 am)

    From the Article
    He also noted that from a very cold start after the ICE goes on to warm the battery, roughly within 3 miles it will be warm enough to allow the engine to turn off.
    ——————-

    Finally. That answers one of the nagging questions I had.


  23. 23
    prowler

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:33 am)

    Tagamet: Why wouldn’t regen brakes work in the cold?Be well,Tagamet  (Quote)

    Not a good idea to force charge into cold batteries. Just wondering how it’s programmed. We also seem to be seeing that it’s really NOT a full-electric car with an insurance policy, the ICE is [pick one: required/more efficient/nice to have] for some conditions within the AER.


  24. 24
    Tagamet

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:37 am)

    prowler: I believe we came to this conclusion before: heat reduces the life of Li-ion batteries, cold reduces its performance. If the Volt gets 40 miles AER at “neutral” temperatures (not hot, not cold), how does it get 40 in the cold? I don’t believe it unless they’re willing to go to a lower SOC.

    In very cold temps, couldn’t the genset come on initially to warm the battery, shut off, and THEN get 40 AER? I know that’s a little left handed, but it’d still be ~40 AER without dipping below the acceptable SOC.
    I forget if you are in Washington, DC, or Washington State (though I thought the former). It’d make a big difference in temperatures. Just curious.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  25. 25
    kdawg

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    kdawg
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:38 am)

    Jim I: Does anyone know if any part of the battery pack thermal management system works when the car is parked, or is it only active when the car is plugged into the grid or when it is being driven? I would think that if the car was sitting outside my office on a really hot day and not plugged in, that some fans might kick on if the pack’s temperature sensors rose to a certain point. But I don’t think I have ever heard anything definite on this.

    I don’t know about fans, but the engine won’t start remotely. That was revealed a few posts ago.


  26. 26
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:51 am)

    prowler:
    Not a good idea to force charge into cold batteries. Just wondering how it’s programmed. We also seem to be seeing that it’s really NOT a full-electric car with an insurance policy, the ICE is [pick one: required/more efficient/nice to have] for some conditions within the AER.  

    Couldn’t another description be that it IS a full-electric car within a broad range of temperatures? Is a LEAF *not* a full electric car in very cold temperatures? If it’s not, should it still be called a full-electric car? I honestly have no idea, but does a Tesla function at 30 below without being plugged in overnight?
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  27. 27
    kent beuchert

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    kent beuchert
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:02 am)

    If the Volt is plugged in, there is no reason why it can’t use grid juice to warm things up
    (especially the cabin) before the owner unplugs and goes on his way. That is the key, in my opinion, to proving good interior conditions, be it summer with AC or in the winter using heat.
    I would suggest to GM a remote that can turn on the interior climate control using grid juice.
    The owner could thus simply turn on the process from inside a while before going out to the car.
    That would save the big energy hit one gets when initially cooling/heating the interior. I’m surprised that GM didn’t think of this rather obvious strategy.


  28. 28
    Jake West

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jake West
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:04 am)

    something I’m concerned about is ground clearance. because of the aerodynamics of the car the front spliter in all of the pics I’ve seen is very low to the ground. While I think this makes the car look great it could be a problem when it comes to heavy snow fall. We’ll have to wait and see what the final number is on the ground clearance, but this could be an issue.


  29. 29
    Right Lane Cruiser

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Right Lane Cruiser
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:04 am)

    Note that a little bit of charging at cold temperatures is a good thing as it warms the batteries a bit. It would definitely need to be limited so that overcharging doesn’t occur, but some would be beneficial.


  30. 30
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:17 am)

    kent beuchert: If the Volt is plugged in, there is no reason why it can’t use grid juice to warm things up
    (especially the cabin) before the owner unplugs and goes on his way. That is the key, in my opinion, to proving good interior conditions, be it summer with AC or in the winter using heat.
    I would suggest to GM a remote that can turn on the interior climate control using grid juice.
    The owner could thus simply turn on the process from inside a while before going out to the car.
    That would save the big energy hit one gets when initially cooling/heating the interior. I’m surprised that GM didn’t think of this rather obvious strategy.  

    Hi Kent,
    That was discussed a while back. There are Ap’s for that for the major smart phones. Demos are available for download from here at the site and they go well beyond preconditioning the cabin, Lots of performance data can be collected too.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  31. 31
    James

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:19 am)

    This brings up some interesting questions – such as, exactly how will the cabin be heated? I’m assuming the heater will be an electric unit powered by the 12V starter battery? Would I be wrong in that?

    These testing conditions are in the -0 degree range. I’m wondering how the Volt’s systems will operate in moderate to just cold conditions. And also how the A/C will work.

    I’m hoping that GM will match the Prius and Aptera , and add solar cells to the roof to help with cabin comfort when the car is not plugged into an outlet. It would be an option box I would check, for sure.

    RECHARGE! James


  32. 32
    FME III

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    FME III
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:27 am)

    James: This brings up some interesting questions – such as, exactly how will the cabin be heated? I’m assuming the heater will be an electric unit powered by the 12V starter battery? Would I be wrong in that? These testing conditions are in the -0 degree range. I’m wondering how the Volt’s systems will operate in moderate to just cold conditions. And also how the A/C will work.I’m hoping that GM will match the Prius and Aptera , and add solar cells to the roof to help with cabin comfort when the car is not plugged into an outlet. It would be an option box I would check, for sure.  (Quote)

    I read on the Chevrolet Voltage site (I think that’s where it was…) that the cabin can be heated by both heat from the ICE (when it is running) and electric heat. I would not think the electric heat is part of the 12 volt system, given the comments that running the heater full-out in EV mode reduces range.


  33. 33
    Blind Guy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Blind Guy
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:34 am)

    If your Volt is parked and unplugged I believe it will not condition the battery. You would not want your Volt automatically using it’s battery reserve or activating the ice on it’s own. If you can’t plug in then simply activate the Volt to start conditioning 20 minutes before needing it. I don’t know if you can have the ice activate remotely.


  34. 34
    James

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:44 am)

    I just did some homework and discovered the EV-1 used a heat pump HVAC designed by GM. This is more efficient than resistive heating coils, though like home heat pumps it had resistive coils for backup. The windshield was cleared using a gold film that was resistively heated. It was pretty thin you could only see it from an angle.

    I would like to learn more about how the Volt system works, but it would make sense that the HVAC system would be a newer version of this. It just doesn’t make sense that the ICE would start up to warm the cabin when parked in cold weather away from the outlet.

    RECHARGE! James


  35. 35
    Blind Guy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Blind Guy
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:45 am)

    #28 Jake West something I’m concerned about is ground clearance. because of the aerodynamics of the car the front spliter in all of the pics I’ve seen is very low to
    the ground. While I think this makes the car look great it could be a problem when it comes to heavy snow fall. We’ll have to wait and see what the final
    number is on the ground clearance, but this could be an issue.  

    Hey Jake, I also expressed concerns about ground clearance some time back. Our current car has a 6 inch crack in the front bumper from dragging on the bottom of our driveway. I would rather have a higher bumper instead of a cracked one.


  36. 36
    MuddyRoverRob

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:51 am)

    kent beuchert: If the Volt is plugged in, there is no reason why it can’t use grid juice to warm things up
    (especially the cabin) before the owner unplugs and goes on his way. That is the key, in my opinion, to proving good interior conditions, be it summer with AC or in the winter using heat.
    I would suggest to GM a remote that can turn on the interior climate control using grid juice.
    The owner could thus simply turn on the process from inside a while before going out to the car.
    That would save the big energy hit one gets when initially cooling/heating the interior. I’m surprised that GM didn’t think of this rather obvious strategy.  

    Err, Kent there’s an app for that…

    Not only DID GM think of it, you can do it remotely through your iphone or Android phone.
    Sadly the iphone/itouch download was US only so we couldn’t play with it here in the sticks.


  37. 37
    Loboc

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:00 am)

    Some good information today! I love when we get some tidbits that aren’t some corp-speak nothingness.

    I also am not so happy with their concerns about high-ambient-temp affecting battery life. Even thought lead-acid are very much ‘not-the-same’ as lithium, there is still a correlation because they are both chemical batteries. In other words, experience with other batteries has some application with newer battery chemistries.

    In Texas, for example, a high-end lead-acid battery lasts 3 to 5 years and then it craps out without warning. I only buy diehard and get the biggest one that fits in the car’s battery holder. Even then, I am on the fourth one in 10 years including the OEM. They get replaced no charge, but, it’s a pain to tow the car to Sears.

    In the summer, I placed a meat thermometer on the pavement and measured an actual 134F. That’s high enough to make your tennies stick to the road! Inside your car can be deadly in minutes without a/c. Remote start would save getting cooked (both human and battery) in this scenario.


  38. 38
    Ray

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Ray
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:01 am)

    On my 2010 Fusion Hybrid…. Here in Central Alberta Canada… we were in the coldest area of the entire world around the 20 of December 2009.

    I had no trouble with my Fusion Hybrid getting around… 18,000 KMS so far..

    The engine block heater was plugged in and when the car started up in the morning, the ICE ran about 6 – 10 minutes or so and then the electrical system came into play…

    With normal driving..within a couple of blocks the regen. braking started working…and the car functioned just fine….

    I did notice that because of the extreme cold… the ICE come on quite a bit more than in a warm weather condition but I still acheived around 40 MPG (Canadian).

    What I did see while the car was warrming up was that the software would cycle the battery between charging and discharging… thus making the battery warm up…
    And I found that if you put a load on the system… ie. rear defrost, headlights, heater fans on high.. the battery system would warm up faster…

    I learned a lot of interesting things about driving a hybrid, and, in general, am really enjoying all the different aspects of this car..especeially the gas savings…

    And anyone buying a Hybrid of any type be it the Volt, Fusion, Leaf etc will have to look forward to a new learning curve on how these cars work…and drive..

    FYI.. this site is still giving me trouble when trying to view with IE7 and IE8 (jumbled numbers and overwriting itself) but looks fine in Firefox.


  39. 39
    MuddyRoverRob

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:04 am)

    The part that made me laugh is where Mr Farah is talking about traction!

    A FWD car only running all season tires would have been stuck in my DRIVEWAY a couple weeks ago! The Subaru WITH new snows was swimming in the stuff.

    Yes we live in an urban neighborhood.


  40. 40
    N Riley

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    N Riley
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:08 am)

    It would be nice to know more about just what do they test for and how do they do it. I don’t think many drivers in the U.S. and lower Canada will have to drive in these conditions. If so, it would not be for many days each winter. I live in Mississippi where we experience cold winters in the sub-20 degrees very seldom. I would not expect to have any trouble with a Volt during winter driving.

    Summer driving in our 95 – 100 degree temperature would not be bad, but parking the Volt in a parking lot for the full day could get pretty darn hot under the hood. That could prove interesting since most parking lots do not have plug-in capability to allow the car to condition the battery in the heat of the day.

    Good report, Lyle.


  41. 41
    James

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:10 am)

    Jake West: something I’m concerned about is ground clearance. because of the aerodynamics of the car the front spliter in all of the pics I’ve seen is very low to the ground. While I think this makes the car look great it could be a problem when it comes to heavy snow fall. We’ll have to wait and see what the final number is on the ground clearance, but this could be an issue.  (Quote)

    Hi Jake, If you look closely at the actual pre-production test Volts, you’ll notice the front lip or “air dam” has changed from the SHOW VOLT version you see in the TV ad spots and auto shows. I believe they made at least two SHOW VOLTS, a black one and a silver with larger 18″ wheels – and most of the photos you see online are of that version. The actual production Volt’s nose has changed since then, and you can see they raised and slightly redesigned the black air dam (plastic) and below it they’ve enlarged the lip ( flexible rubber) under the nose from what appeared to be around 1.5″ to what now looks like a good 3.5″. You can see that frontal ground clearance has gone up quite a bit.

    That should help some for people with steep driveways and for those pesky speed bumps. We’ll still have to use some caution, as I know I occasionally rub the plastic air dam on my Prius since I lowered it slightly to decrease turbulence below the car. The use of verticle rubber or plastic air dams is controversial amongst aerodynamicists because it does disrupt the flow of air in a rather static way. There will be, however, some flex at highway speeds which I’m sure they took into consideration. I myself would like to see that lower airdam at speed to see how it reacts.

    My wife and I never drive our Prius in snow, as they are notorious for not having the best traction in slippery conditions even though they are front-wheel-drive. We use my T100 4 x 4 for those days which are few and far between in Seattle. My advice would be to leave the Volt home when those big East Coast ( or Texas, lol ) storms arrive.


  42. 42
    Byron

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Byron
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:14 am)

    Dmitrii: T -40C and -40F is almost the same Good news today – Volt (& other future electric cars) can operate in cold climate.  (Quote)

    It actually is the same!
    Byron I


  43. 43
    MuddyRoverRob

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:18 am)

    Bruce: Just more unnecessary testing that we could be doing. I’ve never driven a perfect car, and I’m not sure I would want to. Since more than likely, GM is going to maintain ownership of the batteries anyway, why not let us do the testing? With an onboard blackbox type recording device, they could analyze the conditions after the fact. They’re just hogging all the fun.  

    Bruce my friend, Toyota has tried that approach lately…

    Personally I prefer Andrew Farah and team beating this thing ’till it won’t break!

    Keep up the good work guys!


  44. 44
    N Riley

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    N Riley
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:18 am)

    Didn’t Chevrolet do a lot of high temperature testing last summer and fall in the desert out west? I don’t know how much or what kind of testing, but I remember them saying they had done so. I just never heard much about the results of the testing. We were led to believe that the Volt performed well in hot climates and in high latitudes in the mountains. So, what gives?


  45. 45
    DonC

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DonC
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:20 am)

    prowler: The question was asked above if battery warming will occur when parked in the cold and not plugged in. If not (no warming during park), will the regen brakes work after being parked outside in the cold all day and not plugged in? This would reduce the AER in the cold.  

    My interpretation of what Farah (and to a lesser Fletcher) said in the chat was that the car isn’t going anywhere unless the battery has been conditioned, but that even if parked overnight in the cold the battery will probably not have to be conditioned because of the mass of the car and how well insulated the pack is. So your hypothetical is going to be a hypothetical in all but the most unusual of circumstances.

    Obviously if the regen brakes aren’t working then the mechanical brakes will stop the car. if you start at the top of Pikes Peak with a fully charged battery you’d have the same problem.

    AER will be reduced in the cold by the cold. Rolling resistance losses go up, aerodynamic losses go up, and drive train losses go up. Battery performance is the least of the issues.


  46. 46
    lousloot

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    lousloot
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:22 am)

    Jim, Nearly 100% efficiency. (Some heat is lost thru the tailpipe) Now if the VOLT could use its AC as a heat pump, we could see over 100%.

    I would rather use a heated garage via heatpump than have my VOLT do it.

    I don’t think temps in the 100-110 range are going to impact the batteries much — as long as they don’t reach 180 or so — so they don’t cook.

    In Kelvin, that isn’t much of a jump. Freezing is 273.15, boiling is 373.15, so 50/273 is an 18% difference. (32 deg to 106 deg)

    Jim Heaton: Internal combustion enfines are usually very efficient at producing heat. When you are using the engine to heat the car, plus charge the batteries, what is the total efficiency?  


  47. 47
    MuddyRoverRob

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:22 am)

  48. 48
    Jim I

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jim I
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:29 am)

    Tagamet:
    You’re always so GROUCHY in the morning! (lol) What did you get yesterday? When I checked it was at +20! (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    ========================

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The last I looked, the count was at 24! Not bad for a grumpy comment…..

    ;-)


  49. 49
    Loboc

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:30 am)

    MuddyRoverRob:
    Err, Kent there’s an app for that…Not only DID GM think of it, you can do it remotely through your iphone or Android phone.

    Exactly. Remote start is an option on almost all cars.. GM included. Very handy.

    The Volt will one-up the key-fob interface with the smart phone (or web-based) apps.


  50. 50
    Jim I

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jim I
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:30 am)

    Off Topic, but could be good news for Youngstown and GM:

    http://business-journal.com/clients/business-journal/more-jobs-at-gms-lordstown-plantbrtodays-announcement-promis-p15789.htm?twindow=Default&smenu=1&mad=No

    Now, if we can just get three shifts going on the Volt assemble line……


  51. 51
    Starcast

    +5

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Starcast
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:36 am)

    I have seen a Volt in the snow here in Milford. It took off the same as any other car. The volt was not in deep snow but the street had a few inches on it. I was behind it at a light and the volt took right off. I was not in my 4×4 I was in my 2wd s10 and the volt took off better then my Pu. (But that’s not saying much)

    I think the Volt will drive in the snow like any other car the same size.

    Funny sign I seen “Will buy your Toyota for scrap metal”


  52. 52
    Loboc

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:39 am)

    lousloot: I don’t think temps in the 100-110 range are going to impact the batteries much

    The ambient air temp is not the only concern. Inside the car can reach 180F easily just by sitting (cooking) in the sun. That’s why it’s so dangerous to leave pets in the car even for 5 minutes during summer. Not to mention all the little kids killed by carelessness every year. Sad, but true.


  53. 53
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:49 am)

    Jim I: This is more like it!!!!Ask a question, and get a reasonable answer.OK, it sounds like cold weather is not a deal breaker problem for the Volt, and that is great!Now we need a similar update for the hot weather, as that one comment was a bit scary.(…) I don’t think I have ever heard anything definite on this.Good topic today!
    NPNS  

    Well as Jim I and others wrote this is a very good topic. I’m very glad to know that the behavior of the Volt is good on snowy tracks (WITH WHICH KIND OF TIRES?) because here in western Europe North of 50° lat. this winter (and the previous) has been VERY snowy and I had to have good winter tires on both of my cars to be able to move correctly.

    As you mentioned a similar report on “Chevy Volt HOT Weather Testing” would be warmly ;) welcomed.

    JC NPNS


  54. 54
    David

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    David
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:52 am)

    Yes, lot’s of good info today. I have a couple of questions that someone here may be able to answer.

    1) Your Volt is parked outside in the cold away from an outlet. After the 3 mile ICE warm up of the battery, does the ICE still operate to heat the cabin. I thought it didn’t. Is that right?

    2) Your Volt is parked outside in the heat away from an outlet (this seems to be the biggest threat to the Volt’s battery). Does the battery use some of it’s own juice to keep itself cool? And, let’s say you drove more than 40 miles to get there and you’re operating at that 30% SOC, does the battery dip into the reserve to keep itself cool and if so, would there be a point when the battery got too low and the cooling stops? Or, is there no cooling of the battery going on unless you are either driving or plugged into an outlet?

    Thanks


  55. 55
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:55 am)

    David: Yes, lot’s of good info today.I have a couple of questions that someone here may be able to answer.(…) 2) Your Volt is parked outside in the heat away from an outlet (this seems to be the biggest threat to the Volt’s battery). Does the battery use some of it’s own juice to keep itself cool? And, let’s say you drove more than 40 miles to get there and you’re operating at that 30% SOC, does the battery dip into the reserve to keep itself cool and if so, would there be a point when the battery got too low and the cooling stops? Or, is there no cooling of the battery going on unless you are either driving or plugged into an outlet?Thanks  

    Good second question David. I would also like to have an answer.

    JC NPNS


  56. 56
    RogerE333

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    RogerE333
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:56 am)

    N Riley: Didn’t Chevrolet do a lot of high temperature testing last summer and fall in the desert out west? I don’t know how much or what kind of testing, but I remember them saying they had done so. I just never heard much about the results of the testing. We were led to believe that the Volt performed well in hot climates and in high latitudes in the mountains. So, what gives?  (Quote)

    The Volt probably performs great in hot climates — it just reduces the lifespan of the battery. I have a ton (not literally) of hobby lipos and heat is their enemy. People who are seriously worried about lifespan store their lipos in a refrigerator at half-charge (3.85/cell). I sometimes wonder if the Volt will have some kind of long-term storage mode where the batteries are kept and half-full instead of at 80%?

    Someone said that charging the battery with regen would heat it up, in my experience this is not true. Charged at a reasonable “1C” rate, lipos should never warm up at all. These are not NiCds or NiMHs. If a lipo warms up while charging you are in big trouble (get ready to toss it outside).


  57. 57
    Bob

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Bob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:00 am)

    One scenario I’m sure they’ll come up with something to deal with: You park your car in your garage, your garage gets extremely cold overnight, 10 minutes before you wake up the car automatically begins to preheat the cabin but it’s so cold it starts the combustion engine… and you die of carbon monoxide poisoning because the car is running in your garage. ;)


  58. 58
    Jim I

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jim I
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:05 am)

    Off Topic #2:

    Does anyone know if the Volt will make an appearance at the Cleveland Auto Show this year?

    The show is scheduled to start this Saturday, but I can’t see anything listed about the Volt.

    There are quite a few hybrids listed, and a big deal about the Cruze……………

    The Volt was not listed for the Pittsburgh Auto Show from last week either.

    Doesn’t GM think we like the Volt in OH or PA????


  59. 59
    MuddyRoverRob

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:06 am)

    Bob: One scenario I’m sure they’ll come up with something to deal with:You park your car in your garage, your garage gets extremely cold overnight, 10 minutes before you wake up the car automatically begins to preheat the cabin but it’s so cold it starts the combustion engine… and you die of carbon monoxide poisoning because the car is running in your garage.   

    If the car is in your garage it’s likely plugged in (you didn’t forget when you parked, right?) so the genset wouldn’t have to start… it would precondition from the mains.

    If you spend a couple hundred bucks you can install fibreglass insulation and plastic in your garage which will keep it a LOT warmer, even without direct heat.
    Mine rarely drops below 0c inside, even when it’s -20c outside.


  60. 60
    David

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    David
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:12 am)

    MuddyRoverRob: If the car is in your garage it’s likely plugged in (you didn’t forget when you parked, right?) so the genset wouldn’t have to start… it would precondition from the mains.  (Quote)

    I’m guessing the ICE would never start on its own without someone in the driver seat; that would certainly freak somebody out standing nearby if it did! Even when the ICE automatically comes on after 60 days of non-operation as we heard it will, it would only happen during a driving session. Did I just type “driving session”?


  61. 61
    prowler

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:13 am)

    Tagamet: In very cold temps, couldn’t the genset come on initially to warm the battery, shut off, and THEN get 40 AER? I know that’s a little left handed, but it’d still be ~40 AER without dipping below the acceptable SOC.I forget if you are in Washington, DC, or Washington State (though I thought the former). It’d make a big difference in temperatures. Just curious.Be well,Tagamet  (Quote)

    Washington DC, some of my questions arise from trying to find out how the Volt will compare to my specific experience with the Tesla after being parked at work all day in 22 degree temperature. I believe as far as your specific (left-handed) question, you answered it yourself.

    Note that the Tesla, being all electric, can run the heat or AC whether the car is being driven or not, and whether plugged in or not. It would not be a good idea (and possibly illegal) for GM to program the Volt to run its ICE unless its being driven (or under the direct control of a person with a remote starter). The liability would be tremendous. I fully support the use of waste heat from when the ICE would be running normally (whether to heat batteries or cabin), I haven’t come to a conclusion yet on whether I’d want it running JUST for battery conditioning or cabin heat (for instance, when there’s a full charge).


  62. 62
    Exp_EngTech

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Exp_EngTech
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:26 am)

    Loboc: The ambient air temp is not the only concern. Inside the car can reach 180F easily just by sitting (cooking) in the sun. That’s why it’s so dangerous to leave pets in the car even for 5 minutes during summer. Not to mention all the little kids killed by carelessness every year. Sad, but true.  (Quote)

    I’ll agree with “lousloot”.

    I don’t think the Volt battery pack will have any issue with heat.

    Down South, conventional lead acid batteries get killed by living in the hot engine compartment and experiencing high current drain (from routine starting / A/C clutch operation) and high current recharge. Note: Battery mechanicals have been cheapened up over the years to save weight. The mechanical supports buckle (typically, a cell gets shorted).

    The Volt pack on the other hand, resides outside the engine compartment. I have to believe it will be far cooler there (even above hot asphalt) than inside an engine compartment when the ICE kicks in.

    The Volt pack has a “thermal management system” and some insulation I believe. I’d like to see some thermal test data from “summer hot soak” testing when parked in a Mall parking lot. Q: Does the shadow cast by the car allow the ashalt under it to cool some? Does insulation handle the worst case heat situation?


  63. 63
    prowler

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:30 am)

    Tagamet: Couldn’t another description be that it IS a full-electric car within a broad range of temperatures? Is a LEAF *not* a full electric car in very cold temperatures? If it’s not, should it still be called a full-electric car? I honestly have no idea, but does a Tesla function at 30 below without being plugged in overnight?Be well,Tagamet  (Quote)

    Gee, Tag, haven’t seen you splitting hairs like this before – definition that the Volt is ALL-ELECTRIC, but ONLY WITHIN a CERTAIN TEMPERATURE RANGE? I’m trying to give it more credit than that!

    My view is that cars need to be like appliances – you walk up to a toaster that you’ve never used before, and you can use it. You should intuitively be able to operate a car as long as you’re within it’s defined specs. I chuckle over some of the “requests” on the Tesla Board. For instance, there’s 4 predefined charge/driving modes (standard, performance, etc.). So they’re asking for “fully programmable”. They want to be able to program the regen brake characteristics. They want to program the brake lights (which come on under 40 mph when releasing the “go-pedal”). Don’t get me started on displays. The Tesla is very close to an appliance – you just drive it (the only difference is filling it up – a GREAT improvement).

    In any case, I believe that GM is also going the appliance route. I remember an early (for the Volt) Bob Lutz interview where he made a major point that the GPS would tell the charging system how far from home you were. In this way, it could best balance the energy draw from the batteries and ICE to optimize your MPG since it knew when it would get a charge (miles from home). I haven’t heard this at all in MANY months, somewhat indicating the move towards simplification?

    I’m trying to prove that the Volt can function as a fully electric car. Is it using the EV-1 heatpump? Does it EVER REQUIRE that the ICE come on when in AER mode? IS IT REALLY A AER MODE (based on the above interview with Bob Lutz). Is the GPS input ever used in the charging/electric use algorithms?

    WE WANT DETAILS!


  64. 64
    David Freeman

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    David Freeman
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:36 am)

    The front airdam is flexible. If you hit something, it shouldn’t crack and shatter.

    http://gm-volt.com/2009/07/29/chevy-volt-chief-designers-update/

    Low Font End
    It was noticed in the IVer video that the front end of the Volt appears precariously low to the ground, especially the air intake port.

    Boniface explains “we took the Volt ride height down as low as possible without violating GM best practices.”

    “The piece to which you are referring is a flexible airdam that sits fairly low to the ground (same height as Corvette airdam),” he writes. “This piece is a big aero enabler and should not be damaged by a hit to a curb.”

    Jake West: something I’m concerned about is ground clearance.because of the aerodynamics of the car the front spliter in all of the pics I’ve seen is very low to the ground.While I think this makes the car look great it could be a problem when it comes to heavy snow fall.We’ll have to wait and see what the final number is on the ground clearance, but this could be an issue.  


  65. 65
    MuddyRoverRob

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:37 am)

    David:
    I’m guessing the ICE would never start on its own without someone in the driver seat; that would certainly freak somebody out standing nearby if it did!Even when the ICE automatically comes on after 60 days of non-operation as we heard it will, it would only happen during a driving session.Did I just type “driving session”?  

    Agreed, the genset wouldn’t normally start without a driver present, although ‘remote starters’ are common in this area. It’s not all that weird or unusual during winter for a car to start in the parking lot when it’s unseen owner hits the remote.

    My point was that this wouldn’t be necessary because the Volt would be plugged in when at it’s home base.

    The 60 day thing will never be an issue for us, at least once a week we have a ‘trip’ which will exceed the AER.

    This is WHY I like the Volt, it’s a Chevy… ready willing and able without any undue drama.
    A Leaf would have to be left at home, it would not be capable of that Monday night ‘run’.
    I can’t afford a Tesla, however it could make that run without issue, oh wait… 3 of us are on that trip, back to the Chevy.


  66. 66
    Estero

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Estero
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:38 am)

    After living in SW Florida for the past 10+ years, I have the similar thoughts and concerns as CMull about our summer temperatures and its effect on the Volt battery. I had to replace my latest battery just last weekend before expiration of the warranty.

    Message to GM — Send one of your test vehicles down here and I’ll gladly help you test out those batteries during the upcoming summer months. :) :)


  67. 67
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:40 am)

    I really don’t think that the heat conditions of the Southwest will be quite as bad when the Volt has been plugged in overnight, and, the highest overnight minimum temperature is around 82 degrees by morning. That would mean that the battery could easily function in the cool morning commute to work.
    When it is time to go home, you are going to use the Range Extender for at least part of the way because you would want maximum A/C. The only difference would be that on a hotter afternoon, it should come on a bit sooner.
    The A/C is powered by an electric compressor as I understand it. Keeping both the discharged battery and the cabin cool would be the tasking of that electric compressor. The Range Extender Generator would power the electric A/C compressor also with the traction motor, of course.

    I just don’t think that there will be that much of a problem, but, it’s likely the software timings of everything that need to be very carefully perfected.

    Well, the best ways to do that are to get the Volts into project driveways, it seems to me.

    The Volt will be coming to Austin in May at the Austin Convention Center.
    June, July, August, and September are the hottest months here. Maybe a month or two during that period could be a valid and useful practical test. A dedicated technical-attentiveness might also be helpful during a “real world” set of tests.


  68. 68
    Kyle

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Kyle
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:43 am)

    If the Volt uses the ICE to preheat the battery when the temperature is fairly cold what happens if it is in a garage and it experiences those cold temps and the driver forgot to plug it in? Could this be a CO concern? What safeguards has GM taken for this type of situation?


  69. 69
    Estero

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Estero
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:45 am)

    Interesting photo — tire tracks are visible in the snow under the Volt, but not in front of or behnid it. Not sure what to make of that.


  70. 70
    prowler

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:45 am)

    DonC: My interpretation of what Farah (and to a lesser Fletcher) said in the chat was that the car isn’t going anywhere unless the battery has been conditioned, but that even if parked overnight in the cold the battery will probably not have to be conditioned because of the mass of the car and how well insulated the pack is. So your hypothetical is going to be a hypothetical in all but the most unusual of circumstances.Obviously if the regen brakes aren’t working then the mechanical brakes will stop the car. if you start at the top of Pikes Peak with a fully charged battery you’d have the same problem.AER will be reduced in the cold by the cold. Rolling resistance losses go up, aerodynamic losses go up, and drive train losses go up. Battery performance is the least of the issues.  (Quote)

    Par 1 – No, he said that the ICE will condition the battery during the first 3 miles of driving.
    “He also noted that from a very cold start after the ICE goes on to warm the battery, roughly within 3 miles it will be warm enough to allow the engine to turn off.”

    Par 2 – Braking was not my point. If cold batteries don’t accept regen, your AER goes down

    Par 3 – Absolutely disagree – cold (say 22 degrees) Li-ion batteries will reduce AER more than anything else you mention. Note Bob Lutz stating that his 40 AER went down to 28 in cold weather, this wasn’t from aerodynamics.


  71. 71
    Zachary Taylor

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:51 am)

    James: 12V starter battery

    The Volt does carry a 12 volt battery, but it is not used for starting. It is analogous to the control battery in a large UPS system; a sure source of power for computers managing the 400V battery system (which might be depleted, or charging or otherwise unavailable). As a consequence, the 12 volt battery is not able to produce the large surge associated with starting, but should last longer. What I haven’t been able to find out is if it powers the 12VDC accessories directly, or if there is a DC/DC converter to provide this power which doubles as a device to keep the 12VDC battery charged (from the 400VDC Li/Ion pack).

    The Volt’s engine is normally started by using it’s direct-coupled generator as a motor, powered directly from the 400VDC pack (which will result in astonishingly fast starts). I do not know what provision there may be for starting from 12VDC in an emergency.

    Would the Volt even be operable with a completely dead Li/Ion pack? The computer would be programmed not to let it’s charge go completely flat; a dead pack would likely be a sign of serious malfunction.


  72. 72
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:58 am)

    prowler:
    Washington DC, some of my questions arise from trying to find out how the Volt will compare to my specific experience with the Tesla after being parked at work all day in 22 degree temperature. I believe as far as your specific (left-handed) question, you answered it yourself.Note that the Tesla, being all electric, can run the heat or AC whether the car is being driven or not, and whether plugged in or not. It would not be a good idea (and possibly illegal) for GM to program the Volt to run its ICE unless its being driven (or under the direct control of a person with a remote starter). The liability would be tremendous. I fully support the use of waste heat from when the ICE would be running normally (whether to heat batteries or cabin), I haven’t come to a conclusion yet on whether I’d want it running JUST for battery conditioning or cabin heat (for instance, when there’s a full charge).  

    These are important considerations, prowler.
    But even so, if we are going to adapt to a better mode of transportation, we need to establish new protocols for everything. Even temporarily placing something like those easily removable clear plastic oil-change reminders inside the windshield (and side and back windows), (except bigger), that,

    *** “This Chevrolet Volt may start at any time when outside” ***

    (A CO detector option might be necessary, but, possibly there might be a way to try to have software effectively eliminate costs).

    Quite an admirable task everyone at GM is achieving here.

    (/…had to apparently take half a day off, these topics are so important. have to go at 10:57local time. have a great day everyone).


  73. 73
    MuddyRoverRob

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:03 pm)

    Estero: Interesting photo — tire tracks are visible in the snow under the Volt, but not in front of or behnid it.Not sure what to make of that.  

    It’s snowing in the picture, pretty sure the tracks are just getting covered… it can happen pretty fast.


  74. 74
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:03 pm)

    prowler:
    Washington DC, some of my questions arise from trying to find out how the Volt will compare to my specific experience with the Tesla after being parked at work all day in 22 degree temperature. I believe as far as your specific (left-handed) question, you answered it yourself.Note that the Tesla, being all electric, can run the heat or AC whether the car is being driven or not, and whether plugged in or not. It would not be a good idea (and possibly illegal) for GM to program the Volt to run its ICE unless its being driven (or under the direct control of a person with a remote starter). The liability would be tremendous. I fully support the use of waste heat from when the ICE would be running normally (whether to heat batteries or cabin), I haven’t come to a conclusion yet on whether I’d want it running JUST for battery conditioning or cabin heat (for instance, when there’s a full charge).  

    Thanks for the reply.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  75. 75
    Dylan

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dylan
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:11 pm)

    David: I’m guessing the ICE would never start on its own without someone in the driver seat; that would certainly freak somebody out standing nearby if it did! Even when the ICE automatically comes on after 60 days of non-operation as we heard it will, it would only happen during a driving session. (Quote)

    You would never want the ICE to start while it is parked to condition the battery packs. As most people in cold weather will be keeping their Volts in their enclosed garage turning on the ICE might cause issues with Carbon Monoxide poisoning.

    I live in MN winters and have remote start. If the vehicle are outside there is no issue remoting your car, someone in the parking lot might give your car a weird look, but it is pretty much understood what is going on. If the car is in the garage, the garage is either heated (which then you dont need to start the car) or you have to open the garage door before starting the car.

    My guess (and only a guess) is that the Volt only conditions the battery if it is plugged in or if you tell your car (via IPOD) that you are going to be in the car in 15 minutes so start the heaters. To keep the batteries conditioned all the time you can easily wipe out 8KWh in less then a day with even a minor heating/cooling of the battery.

    This article is good news for my area. 1 question down, 30 more to be answered.


  76. 76
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:11 pm)

    prowler: Par 3 – Absolutely disagree – cold (say 22 degrees) Li-ion batteries will reduce AER more than anything else you mention. Note Bob Lutz stating that his 40 AER went down to 28 in cold weather, this wasn’t from aerodynamics.

    Just curious about how much you know much about Maximum Bob (g). I’m pretty sure that the phrase “Your mileage may vary” was coined to describe Bob. Just a personal hypothesis.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  77. 77
    Michael

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Michael
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:29 pm)

    James: Jake West: something I’m concerned about is ground clearance. because of the aerodynamics of the car the front spliter in all of the pics I’ve seen is very low to the ground. While I think this makes the car look great it could be a problem when it comes to heavy snow fall. We’ll have to wait and see what the final number is on the ground clearance, but this could be an issue. (Quote)

    Hi Jake,

    My wife and I never drive our Prius in snow, as they are notorious for not having the best traction in slippery conditions even though they are front-wheel-drive. We use my T100 4 x 4 for those days which are few and far between in Seattle. My advice would be to leave the Volt home when those big East Coast ( or Texas, lol ) storms arrive.

    Jake and James, I’ve been thinking about this for a couple hours and I’ve come to the same conclusion as James and his wife. We have two cars, a truck, and a Goldwing. The 4X4 Dodge truck and the 4X4 Jeep Cherokee go in the snow. The Mitsubishi Diamante and the Goldwing do not. If/when I get a Volt, it will stay home when it snows. :-)


  78. 78
    Exp_EngTech

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Exp_EngTech
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:32 pm)

    Zachary Taylor: The Volt does carry a 12 volt battery, but it is not used for starting. It is analogous to the control battery in a large UPS system; a sure source of power for computers managing the 400V battery system (which might be depleted, or charging or otherwise unavailable). As a consequence, the 12 volt battery is not able to produce the large surge associated with starting, but should last longer. What I haven’t been able to find out is if it powers the 12VDC accessories directly, or if there is a DC/DC converter to provide this power which doubles as a device to keep the 12VDC battery charged (from the 400VDC Li/Ion pack).The Volt’s engine is normally started by using it’s direct-coupled generator as a motor, powered directly from the 400VDC pack (which will result in astonishingly fast starts). I do not know what provision there may be for starting from 12VDC in an emergency. Would the Volt even be operable with a completely dead Li/Ion pack? The computer would be programmed not to let it’s charge go completely flat; a dead pack would likely be a sign of serious malfunction.  (Quote)

    Good info Zachary.

    I would assume it would be advantagous to run the resistive cabin heat off of the 12VDC system. Same for the A/C system. Many months ago I read it was developed by Behr of Germany.

    On the issue of starting from 12VDC in an emergency….

    For that scenario, maybe we should have 400 VDC connectors on the passenger side so Volt’s can jump start each other….. heh, heh, heh.

    Some info from an old article on cold operation…..
    http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/16/chevy-volt-hvac-development-ice-will-run-from-the-start-at-less-than-40-below/


  79. 79
    DonC

    +5

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DonC
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:35 pm)

    prowler: Par 1 – No, he said that the ICE will condition the battery during the first 3 miles of driving.
    “He also noted that from a very cold start after the ICE goes on to warm the battery, roughly within 3 miles it will be warm enough to allow the engine to turn off.”
    Par 2 – Braking was not my point. If cold batteries don’t accept regen, your AER goes down
    Par 3 – Absolutely disagree – cold (say 22 degrees) Li-ion batteries will reduce AER more than anything else you mention. Note Bob Lutz stating that his 40 AER went down to 28 in cold weather, this wasn’t from aerodynamics. 

    1. Yes he did say that but he followed it up by saying that it wasn’t likely to happen in the real world. Admittedly this was a bit confusing. But my interpretation was that he was trying to answer a hypothetical — which he did — but he was also trying to explain why the hypothetical would probably remain a hypothetical.

    2. Yes, and if you start at the top of a steep hill with a fully charged battery then regen may not work and your AER goes down. And if you brake suddenly regen won’t be able to handle the wattage and your AER goes down. My point is that a cold battery preventing regen is as unlikely a scenario as starting out with a fully charged battery from the top of Pike’s Peak. IOW the point is absolutely correct but of limited importance.

    3. You’ve gone off the path. So long as its conditioned, which it will be, the battery will be just fine. It will deliver the 8 kWh its supposed to deliver just like it would in other temperatures. In fact the battery won’t really know what the ambient temperature is since the temperature inside the pack will be different. Think of it this way. So long as the temperature inside your house is 70 degrees the battery in your remote will perform like it’s 70 degrees outside even if the outside temperature is minus 10. The ambient temperature isn’t relevant to battery performance. The only temperature that matters is the temperature inside the pack. (This is way different than your Tesla BTW since it’s pack management is primitive). The only decrease in AER will be attributable to the battery providing the energy to heat itself, and that should be minimal given the time frames involved.

    Finally, with respect to cold weather and AER, if Bob Lutz doesn’t know (and I’m not saying this is true) that cold air is denser than warmer air and that this automatically leads to higher drag, more aerodynamic losses, and a lower AER, then shame on him. We should do better. FWIW you can see the impact of cold air will adversely affect AER just looking at the drag equation — drag is directly proportional to air density. Along the same lines, cold temperatures increase friction, which means that rolling resistance losses and drive train losses also go up in cold weather. This has nothing to do with the battery. In fact, a conventional ICE car gets lower MPG in cold weather and it doesn’t use a battery for propulsion.


  80. 80
    MuddyRoverRob

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:41 pm)

    DonC:
    1. Yes he did say that but he followed it up by saying that it wasn’t likely to happen in the real world. Admittedly this was a bit confusing. But my interpretation was that he was trying to answer a hypothetical — which he did — but he was also trying to explain why the hypothetical would probably remain a hypothetical.2. Yes, and if you start at the top of a steep hill with a fully charged battery then regen may not work and your AER goes down. And if you brake suddenly regen won’t be able to handle the wattage and your AER goes down. My point is that a cold battery preventing regen is as unlikely a scenario as starting out with a fully charged battery from the top of Pike’s Peak. IOW the point is absolutely correct but of limited importance.3. You’ve gone off the path. So long as its conditioned, which it will be, the battery will be just fine. It will deliver the 8 kWh its supposed to deliver just like it would in other temperatures. In fact the battery won’t really know what the ambient temperature is since the temperature inside the pack will be different. Think of it this way. So long as the temperature inside your house is 70 degrees the battery in your remote will perform like it’s 70 degrees outside even if the outside temperature is minus 10. The ambient temperature isn’t relevant to battery performance. The only temperature that matters is the temperature inside the pack. (This is way different than your Tesla BTW since it’s pack management is primitive).Finally, with respect to cold weather and AER, if Bob Lutz doesn’t know (and I’m not saying this is true) that cold air is denser than warmer air and that this automatically leads to higher drag, more aerodynamic losses, and a lower AER, then shame on him. We should do better. FWIW you can see the impact of cold air will adversely affect AER just looking at the drag equation — drag is directly proportional to air density. Along the same lines, cold temperatures increase friction, which means that rolling resistance losses and drive train losses also go up in cold weather. This has nothing to do with the battery. In fact, a conventional ICE car gets lower MPG in cold weather and it doesn’t use a battery for propulsion.  

    +1 well said!

    The only bit I’ll add is to point out that a Volt parked outside at -20c for 8 hours not plugged in is definitely going to start the genset to warm the car back up.

    This will be fairly common through the winter.


  81. 81
    LauraM

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LauraM
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:42 pm)

    RogerE333: The Volt probably performs great in hot climates — it just reduces the lifespan of the battery.

    That was my impression as well.


  82. 82
    kdawg

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    kdawg
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:47 pm)

    DonC: 1. Yes he did say that but he followed it up by saying that it wasn’t likely to happen in the real world. Admittedly this was a bit confusing. But my interpretation was that he was trying to answer a hypothetical — which he did — but he was also trying to explain why the hypothetical would probably remain a hypothetical.

    On this one, i read it just like Farah said it. Meaing my Volt in the winter, when parked at work unplugged, will run on the ICE for a bit before it kicks over to EV mode. I’ve been curious about that since day 1 and how long it would take the battery to be conidtioned. If i had a remote start installed, i could start it a couple minutes before I left my desk, and by the time I got there, maybe it would already be in EV mode. (Not sure if remote start (unplugged) is possible w/the Volt…. argh.. more questions)


  83. 83
    Estero

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Estero
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:48 pm)

    LauraM: That was my impression as well.  (Quote)

    That’s the impression I’m also getting but was hoping insulation, etc. would nullify the heat effect.

    GM makes a number of vehicles with the (conventional) battery located under the back seat instead of under the hood. The “under seat” batteries seem to last longer. When I asked others about this, it was explained to me that locating the battery under the back seat shields it somewhat from the extreme heat.


  84. 84
    prowler

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (12:58 pm)

    DonC: 1. Yes he did say that but he followed it up by saying that it wasn’t likely to happen in the real world. Admittedly this was a bit confusing. But my interpretation was that he was trying to answer a hypothetical — which he did — but he was also trying to explain why the hypothetical would probably remain a hypothetical.2. Yes, and if you start at the top of a steep hill with a fully charged battery then regen may not work and your AER goes down. And if you brake suddenly regen won’t be able to handle the wattage and your AER goes down. My point is that a cold battery preventing regen is as unlikely a scenario as starting out with a fully charged battery from the top of Pike’s Peak. IOW the point is absolutely correct but of limited importance.3. You’ve gone off the path. So long as its conditioned, which it will be, the battery will be just fine. It will deliver the 8 kWh its supposed to deliver just like it would in other temperatures. In fact the battery won’t really know what the ambient temperature is since the temperature inside the pack will be different. Think of it this way. So long as the temperature inside your house is 70 degrees the battery in your remote will perform like it’s 70 degrees outside even if the outside temperature is minus 10. The ambient temperature isn’t relevant to battery performance. The only temperature that matters is the temperature inside the pack. (This is way different than your Tesla BTW since it’s pack management is primitive).Finally, with respect to cold weather and AER, if Bob Lutz doesn’t know (and I’m not saying this is true) that cold air is denser than warmer air and that this automatically leads to higher drag, more aerodynamic losses, and a lower AER, then shame on him. We should do better. FWIW you can see the impact of cold air will adversely affect AER just looking at the drag equation — drag is directly proportional to air density. Along the same lines, cold temperatures increase friction, which means that rolling resistance losses and drive train losses also go up in cold weather. This has nothing to do with the battery. In fact, a conventional ICE car gets lower MPG in cold weather and it doesn’t use a battery for propulsion.  (Quote)

    This is becoming a good conversation.

    [1. (cold batteries) Yes he did say that but he followed it up by saying that it wasn’t likely to happen in the real world. Admittedly this was a bit confusing. But my interpretation was that he was trying to answer a hypothetical — which he did — but he was also trying to explain why the hypothetical would probably remain a hypothetical.]
    Part of the reason I’m trying to determine “how electric” the Volt is, is to try to map my first-hand experience from the Tesla to the Volt. I can tell you ABSOLUTELY first hand that the Tesla parked for 9 hours in 22 degree weather give a noticeably different result from the batteries both in acceleration and regen braking. MY PERSONAL BELIEVE until I have a Volt in hand is that the Volt will behave similarly (cold batteries of lesser power can’t be programmed around; regen may be, but it’s not advisable).

    [2. Yes, and if you start at the top of a steep hill with a fully charged battery then regen may not work and your AER goes down]
    Actually, it’s the opposite. Starting downhill with a fully charged battery it’s true that you don’t have regen – but it’s also true that you’re not drawing any power from the battery (you’re using gravity) – your AER GOES UP!

    [3. You’ve gone off the path. So long as its conditioned, which it will be, the battery will be just fine.]
    I may be missing something, but I thought there was no conditioning if the car sat 9 hours in 22 degree weather and was not plugged in.

    [Finally, with respect to cold weather and AER, if Bob Lutz doesn’t know (and I’m not saying this is true) that cold air is denser than warmer air and that this automatically leads to higher drag, . . .]
    Bob was reporting a 30 percent drop in range. If aerodynamics was the main cause, you would see a similar drop in an ICE as well. Take my word for it from firsthand experience – cold Li-ions lose power.


  85. 85
    Tagamet

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (1:00 pm)

    prowler:
    Gee, Tag, haven’t seen you splitting hairs like this before – definition that the Volt is ALL-ELECTRIC, but ONLY WITHIN a CERTAIN TEMPERATURE RANGE? I’m trying to give it more credit than that!My view is that cars need to be like appliances – you walk up to a toaster that you’ve never used before, and you can use it. You should intuitively be able to operate a car as long as you’re within it’s defined specs. I chuckle over some of the “requests” on the Tesla Board. For instance, there’s 4 predefined charge/driving modes (standard, performance, etc.). So they’re asking for “fully programmable”. They want to be able to program the regen brake characteristics. They want to program the brake lights (which come on under 40 mph when releasing the “go-pedal”). Don’t get me started on displays. The Tesla is very close to an appliance – you just drive it (the only difference is filling it up – a GREAT improvement).In any case, I believe that GM is also going the appliance route. I remember an early (for the Volt) Bob Lutz interview where he made a major point that the GPS would tell the charging system how far from home you were. In this way, it could best balance the energy draw from the batteries and ICE to optimize your MPG since it knew when it would get a charge (miles from home). I haven’t heard this at all in MANY months, somewhat indicating the move towards simplification?I’m trying to prove that the Volt can function as a fully electric car. Is it using the EV-1 heatpump? Does it EVER REQUIRE that the ICE come on when in AER mode? IS IT REALLY A AER MODE (based on the above interview with Bob Lutz). Is the GPS input ever used in the charging/electric use algorithms?WE WANT DETAILS!  

    I was replying in that way, because (given your recent questions) I’ve gotten the impression that you think that we’ve been deceived in some way by GM (or that your particular questions somehow must be answered). That’s what underpinned my twist on your questions. If I’m wrong, I apologize. If I’m correct, maybe we can discuss it.
    Bob’s comments re the GPS were pure speculation at a meeting with bloggers sitting around a table chatting about *possibilities*. The video (or a link to it) was posted on this site, so the context of those possibilities was very clear.
    GM has been open (and to the extent that I can know) honest about the ongoing development of the Volt for the last two years. Just because a member here is *shouting* his demands to know specific particulars doesn’t mean that they are somehow required to do so, nor does it suggest an implied answer if they decide that that’s not information they’d care to release at this point. Lots of us have “wondered out loud” about hundreds of issues and how they might be addressed. In large part, speculation is what we *DO* here, and it’ll continue that way until we’re far closer to actually having our hands on the wheel of our own Volts. But, “Does it EVER REQUIRE that the ICE come on when in AER mode? IS IT REALLY A AER MODE (based on the above interview with Bob Lutz). Is the GPS input ever used in the charging/electric use algorithms?WE WANT DETAILS! is just “over the top” IMO.
    We receive information about the Volt here through Lyle’s extraordinary efforts coupled with GM’s willingness to release information. Obviously, it just rubs me the wrong way when members take such an “Inquiring minds want to know!” stance.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  86. 86
    LauraM

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LauraM
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (1:04 pm)

    Estero: That’s the impression I’m also getting but was hoping insulation, etc. would nullify the heat effect.

    GM makes a number of vehicles with the (conventional) battery located under the back seat instead of under the hood. The “under seat” batteries seem to last longer. When I asked others about this, it was explained to me that locating the battery under the back seat shields it somewhat from the extreme heat.

    I’m sure GM has done quite a bit of insulation. And that will extend the battery life vs. an non-insulated batter. But I’m sure it will still have a shorter lifespand in Arizona vs. Toronto.

    New York has both hot summers and cold winters. So we get the worst of both worlds. But, hopefully, two months of extreme heat won’t affect the battery too much…


  87. 87
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (1:18 pm)

    DonC:
    1. Yes he did say that but he followed it up by saying that it wasn’t likely to happen in the real world. Admittedly this was a bit confusing. But my interpretation was that he was trying to answer a hypothetical — which he did — but he was also trying to explain why the hypothetical would probably remain a hypothetical.2. Yes, and if you start at the top of a steep hill with a fully charged battery then regen may not work and your AER goes down. And if you brake suddenly regen won’t be able to handle the wattage and your AER goes down. My point is that a cold battery preventing regen is as unlikely a scenario as starting out with a fully charged battery from the top of Pike’s Peak. IOW the point is absolutely correct but of limited importance.3. You’ve gone off the path. So long as its conditioned, which it will be, the battery will be just fine. It will deliver the 8 kWh its supposed to deliver just like it would in other temperatures. In fact the battery won’t really know what the ambient temperature is since the temperature inside the pack will be different. Think of it this way. So long as the temperature inside your house is 70 degrees the battery in your remote will perform like it’s 70 degrees outside even if the outside temperature is minus 10. The ambient temperature isn’t relevant to battery performance. The only temperature that matters is the temperature inside the pack. (This is way different than your Tesla BTW since it’s pack management is primitive). The only decrease in AER will be attributable to the battery providing the energy to heat itself, and that should be minimal given the time frames involved.
    Finally, with respect to cold weather and AER, if Bob Lutz doesn’t know (and I’m not saying this is true) that cold air is denser than warmer air and that this automatically leads to higher drag, more aerodynamic losses, and a lower AER, then shame on him. We should do better. FWIW you can see the impact of cold air will adversely affect AER just looking at the drag equation — drag is directly proportional to air density. Along the same lines, cold temperatures increase friction, which means that rolling resistance losses and drive train losses also go up in cold weather. This has nothing to do with the battery. In fact, a conventional ICE car gets lower MPG in cold weather and it doesn’t use a battery for propulsion.  

    Well said +1.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  88. 88
    EVO

    -4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    EVO
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (1:25 pm)

    LauraM: But I’m sure it will still have a shorter lifespand in Arizona vs. Toronto.…  (Quote)

    Why would it have a shorter lifespan in AZ compared to Toronto? Your assumption that everywhere in AZ is hotter than Toronto is flat wrong.

    AZ is a HUGE area compared to Toronto, so that’s hardly a meaningful comparison.

    For example, Flagstaff, AZ has an average annual temp of 42.3 degrees F with a monthly average maximum temperature peak of 81 degress F, hardly extreme heat, while Toronto has has an average annual temp of 48.4 degrees F, with a monthly average minimum temperature low of 19 degress F, hardly extreme cold.

    Toronto is more than 6 degrees warmer than Flagstaff, AZ on average.

    But don’t let facts get in the way of your preconceived stereotypes.

    Carry on…


  89. 89
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (1:27 pm)

    Estero: Interesting photo — tire tracks are visible in the snow under the Volt, but not in front of or behnid it.Not sure what to make of that.  

    Well observed Estero, – I think it has been discharged there from a distant truck by a crane – my previous question for which I think I didn’t get an answer was with which tires has the Volt a good driving behavior on snowy roads ?

    Do the picture of the tire tracks give an answer ?

    I am unable to conclude except that they do not resemble the winter tire tracks of my current cars in the snow. They look like normal tire tracks.

    JC NPNS


  90. 90
    Jake West

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jake West
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (1:40 pm)

    James: My wife and I never drive our Prius in snow, as they are notorious for not having the best traction in slippery conditions even though they are front-wheel-drive. We use my T100 4 x 4 for those days which are few and far between in Seattle. My advice would be to leave the Volt home when those big East Coast ( or Texas, lol ) storms arrive.

    Leaving the car at home is a good suggestion, however where I currently live in Wisconsin it isn’t the greatest option since we have a good 4-5months of snow and any number of significant snow falls during the winter. One of the reasons I’m interested in the volt to begin with is that its a “no compromise” electric car. So I don’t necessarily have to have a second car to do things the volt can’t.


  91. 91
    LauraM

    +6

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LauraM
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (1:47 pm)

    EVO: Why would it have a shorter lifespan in AZ compared to Toronto? Your assumption that everywhere in AZ is hotter than Toronto is flat wrong.

    AZ is a HUGE area compared to Toronto, so that’s hardly a meaningful comparison.

    For example, Flagstaff, AZ has an average annual temp of 42.3 degrees F with a monthly average maximum temperature peak of 81 degress F, hardly extreme heat, while Toronto has has an average annual temp of 48.4 degrees F, with a monthly average minimum temperature low of 19 degress F, hardly extreme cold.

    Toronto is more than 6 degrees warmer than Flagstaff, AZ on average.

    But don’t let facts get in the way of your preconceived stereotypes.

    Carry on…

    I stand corrected. If you say there are colder places in Arizona, I believe you. But surely that’s the exception rather than the rule? My cousin lives in Arizona, and she told me that she has to replace her battery every three years. On other hand, cities are generally warmer than the surrounding areas, so Toronto was probably a bad example.

    Regardless, the battery will last longer if you live in a colder area than if you live in a warmer area. All other things being equal. Is that better?


  92. 92
    RogerE333

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    RogerE333
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (1:47 pm)

    Estero: That’s the impression I’m also getting but was hoping insulation, etc. would nullify the heat effect.GM makes a number of vehicles with the (conventional) battery located under the back seat instead of under the hood. The “under seat” batteries seem to last longer.  (Quote)

    Insulation can only do so much, it really doesn’t “make things hot” or “make things cold”, it just slows the rate of change. So a well-insulated battery will take longer to heat up on a hot day, but it will also take longer to cool off in the evening. Of course that’s ignoring any active heating/cooling systems.

    Makes sense that getting a battery away from the engine heat will increase its lifespan. Under the rear seat though, now I am having flashbacks of my VW Beetle days! On my ’64 I had two batteries under the rear seat — 6V to run the car and 12V so I could listen to a nice stereo.

    It was a few months back, but there were articles where GM seemed to be saying the Volt might not be so good in the southwest, an excerpt from a dailytech.com article:

    ——
    One disappointment is that the Volt and other Lithium-ion battery-powered electric vehicles may not be viable in hotter climates, such as some states in the American Southwest. Despite the fact that Volts will be sold in these states, performance may be significantly undermined due to the heat. Volt Chief Engineer Andrew Farah describes, “The Volt may not be right for everyone. If you live in the Southwest, depending on how you use your car, the Volt might not be right for you.”
    ——

    Although again, I think the primary issue here is battery life and not “performance” as far as acceleration or range. For drag racing r/c model boats they often put the lipo batteries into “ovens” to warm them up before a race and lower the internal resistance. Obviously they are willing to live with the shorter battery lifespan this causes.


  93. 93
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:01 pm)

    Another idea might be for the pack to condition itself. If the insulation is something like R-50, then, if you have 4,000 to 8,000 available watts to control temperature for such a relatively small well-insulated area, then, no matter what, you might as well use the pack energy to help maintain its own conditioning. You potentially lose nothing in some cases, because at the certain depletion point, the battery is not going to contribute if it is too cold or hot, but, whatever remains in the pack can be used before the Range Extender comes on. This might be especially true for the short distance drives on days off. The program could be self-taught for destination distance and time estimated to be shut off before going back home from, say, the grocery store or church. That might be useful for two of the days of the week. Likely, though, that is already in the programming, it would seem to me.

    /back to work.


  94. 94
    Loboc

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:05 pm)

    Bob: it’s so cold it starts the combustion engine… and … carbon monoxide poisoning because the car is running in your garage.

    The car will never run the ICE unless you tell it to. Either you are driving, or, you told it to automatically start while parked (it still won’t start if it’s plugged in.)

    While in the garage, Volt should be plugged into the wall. If it’s plugged in, it uses grid energy to heat/cool to your liking before you take off. The hvac is all electric. It does not require the ICE to run to heat/cool the cabin.

    Besides that, it would be CO2 not CO that is the danger. CO (carbon monoxide) is just unburned CO2 which just doesn’t happen in a modern ICE w/catalyst.


  95. 95
    prowler

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:07 pm)

    Tagamet: I was replying in that way, because (given your recent questions) I’ve gotten the impression that you think that we’ve been deceived in some way by GM (or that your particular questions somehow must be answered). That’s what underpinned my twist on your questions. If I’m wrong, I apologize. If I’m correct, maybe we can discuss it.Bob’s comments re the GPS were pure speculation at a meeting with bloggers sitting around a table chatting about *possibilities*. The video (or a link to it) was posted on this site, so the context of those possibilities was very clear.GM has been open (and to the extent that I can know) honest about the ongoing development of the Volt for the last two years. Just because a member here is *shouting* his demands to know specific particulars doesn’t mean that they are somehow required to do so, nor does it suggest an implied answer if they decide that that’s not information they’d care to release at this point. Lots of us have “wondered out loud” about hundreds of issues and how they might be addressed. In large part, speculation is what we *DO* here, and it’ll continue that way until we’re far closer to actually having our hands on the wheel of our own Volts. But, “Does it EVER REQUIRE that the ICE come on when in AER mode? IS IT REALLY A AER MODE (based on the above interview with Bob Lutz). Is the GPS input ever used in the charging/electric use algorithms?WE WANT DETAILS! is just “over the top” IMO.We receive information about the Volt here through Lyle’s extraordinary efforts coupled with GM’s willingness to release information. Obviously, it just rubs me the wrong way when members take such an “Inquiring minds want to know!” stance.Be well,Tagamet  (Quote)

    [I was replying in that way, because (given your recent questions) I’ve gotten the impression that you think that we’ve been deceived in some way by GM (or that your particular questions somehow must be answered). That’s what underpinned my twist on your questions. If I’m wrong, I apologize. If I’m correct, maybe we can discuss it.]
    Not at all. In fact, if you look early in my post I said something like, “I don’t believe we’re giving GM enough credit for the electric content of the car”. I don’t see where I ever accused GM of misleading us. My comments are usually directed to test hypotheses presented by others that don’t fit the model I have in my head of what the Volt is.
    You’re a shrink, just use the “Engineer” baseline in reading me and you should understand. When someone said that “The Volt is an electric car with a backup generator”, I will test that statement. The first time I asked the question of what would happen if we pulled the ICE out, I got flamed and told “if that’s the way you feel, buy a BEV”. Not the point. Is the Volt all-electric or not? This impacts the heating and cooling system; this impacts the battery conditioning; there was rampant speculation of a parallel-drive for quite a while (like the Prius). For a while there, I thought the Volt was 100% electric with a backup generator (not because GM said it, I don’t even know if they did), but today’s article said that there are cases where the ICE comes on in AER mode. Is this OPTIONAL or REQUIRED? If the first, evolution into Gen 2 is easy; if not, it’s harder. Further, speculation is occurring (not by GM) that the ICE will come on BEFORE THE CAR IS EVEN DRIVEN. (btw, do you consider the former yelling? I don’t, I use it equivalent to how you use bolding). In any case, I start with the facts that I know to create a baseline, question “facts” that aren’t proven, and try to refine the model in my head of what the Volt really is. As I said, engineer.

    [Just because a member here is *shouting* his demands to know specific particulars doesn’t mean that they are somehow required to do so, nor does it suggest an implied answer if they decide that that’s not information they’d care to release at this point. Lots of us have “wondered out loud” about hundreds of issues and how they might be addressed]
    If you’re referring to me and my use of CAPITAL LETTERS, I described some of that above. Also note that I DID NOT USE any capital letters until I asked why you were replying the way you did, so that couldn’t be the cause. Don’t know if this is an open question with you or answered above.


  96. 96
    prowler

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:09 pm)

    to Tag, part II:

    Also, I’ve been pretty busy today and interspersing this Board in with a bunch of other stuff. People tell me that when I write when I’m rushed they come across as terse.


  97. 97
    EVO

    -11

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    EVO
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:09 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  98. 98
    prowler

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:29 pm)

    Tagamet: Just curious about how much you know much about Maximum Bob (g). I’m pretty sure that the phrase “Your mileage may vary” was coined to describe Bob. Just a personal hypothesis.Be well,Tagamet  (Quote)

    I bought the prowler in 2000 and was very active on the prowler board. With Bob being “father of the prowler” (as well as “Father of the Viper”, which quite a few prowler owners also had) he would come up pretty much as often as he does here. During that period, I’ve seen him on quite a few TV interviews (mostly car shows back then, it was far less political) and I formed an opinion of him that he’s a “real car guy” that tells it like he sees it without any sugar coating. In addition to high-performance cars (which he loves), he also proved to be a great product manager with at least 2 of the Big 3 (was he ever at Ford?). It bothers me when people on this Board paint him with the same brush as “all the old Detroit executives that should be put out to pasture”. He’s also practical, what did he say, “Why would I buy an original Shelby Cobra – I can buy a jet plane for the same price”. Never met him in person, but I like him and would like to meet him.

    -prowler


  99. 99
    James

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:35 pm)

    Jake West: Leaving the car at home is a good suggestion, however where I currently live in Wisconsin it isn’t the greatest option since we have a good 4-5months of snow and any number of significant snow falls during the winter. One of the reasons I’m interested in the volt to begin with is that its a “no compromise” electric car. So I don’t necessarily have to have a second car to do things the volt can’t.  (Quote)

    Jake, I hear you, but I’m afraid the Volt is not a ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL type of vehicle. It has it’s limitations, outside of it’s EREV versatility. Since it’s the gen 1 phase of Voltec – we all hope and pray that GM will continue on with it’s evolution to different platforms, including AWD as Toyota did with it’s Highlander and LS450h hybrid SUVs.

    In Wisconsin you’ll definately need a high traction, higher ground clearance vehicle to meet your needs. The Volt also seats four – and the rear seats really aren’t meant to haul adults over 5’11″ for long distances. The photos of the interior suggest less legroom than the backseat of my Prius.

    You may be in the category of a “later adopter” if your needs predicate more seating, all-weather driving. Especially deep snow.

    The 400 lb. battery pack and gas tank in the rear will undoubtedly handicap the Volt regarding snow or unpaved road traction. It’s weight distribution is not like your typical FWD midsize/compact car in that respect. Also don’t forget the slender high-mileage Goodyears.

    RECHARGE! James


  100. 100
    prowler

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:35 pm)

    to Tag (2A) – (I can’t edit on the machine that I’m on) (As an aside, I couldn’t edit anything today).

    Here’s how I remember it:
    EPA estimates had to be posted on the Maroney sticker and were coming under fire as unrealisted. The disclaimer “Your Mileage May Vary” was added to counter this.

    Yes, this seems to have become Bob’s tagline (similar to the one for Donald Trump of “You’re fired”).

    I don’t believe he invented it, but I do believe it’s most associated with him today.


  101. 101
    Tagamet

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:40 pm)

    prowler: …(btw, do you consider the former yelling? I don’t, I use it equivalent to how you use bolding). …

    …If you’re referring to me and my use of CAPITAL LETTERS, I described some of that above. Also note that I DID NOT USE any capital letters until I asked why you were replying the way you did, so that couldn’t be the cause. Don’t know if this is an open question with you or answered above…

    Google the term Netiquette. You will find:
    “The first rule of typing that everybody should be aware of is that writing IN CAPITALS MAKES IT LOOK LIKE YOU’RE SHOUTING. You’ll often hear people asking others to “lay off the caps”, and for good reason. Shouting makes you look like an idiot. Don’t type more than a few consecutive words in capitals. If you want to emphasise(SIC) something, use the wealth of HTML options available to you. If those aren’t available, stick some *stars* around your text. There’s always an alternative.”
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    /There is no baseline Engineer in shrinkery. Too far out in the tails of the normal curve.


  102. 102
    MuddyRoverRob

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:52 pm)

    EVO:
    Using your logic, your cousin might be the exception to your rule and her battery issues could be completely unrelated to ambient temperature, for all we know.I’ll leave you to figure out on your own the flaws in your latest sweeping generalization as it might apply to real world electric vehicle use.  

    EVO,

    Your extremely aggressive EV or nothing stand is well understood, there is no need to be an arse about it.

    When most people think/talk about AZ they are thinking Tuson and it’s weather patterns. You have to know this but choose to pick a fight instead of being civil.
    Yes, Miss Laura picked one of our more (better known) southern Canadian cities as her example, I respectfully submit Yellowknife as the replacement.

    Net result in any case is cold batteries of any chemistry are weaker than warm ones and hot batteries are more likely to fail.


  103. 103
    ProfessorGordon

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ProfessorGordon
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:54 pm)

    Zachary Taylor:
    The Volt does carry a 12 volt battery, but it is not used for starting.It is analogous to the control battery in a large UPS system; a sure source of power for computers managing the 400V battery system (which might be depleted, or charging or otherwise unavailable).As a consequence, the 12 volt battery is not able to produce the large surge associated with starting, but should last longer.What I haven’t been able to find out is if it powers the 12VDC accessories directly, or if there is a DC/DC converter to provide this power which doubles as a device to keep the 12VDC battery charged (from the 400VDC Li/Ion pack).The Volt’s engine is normally started by using it’s direct-coupled generator as a motor, powered directly from the 400VDC pack (which will result in astonishingly fast starts).I do not know what provision there may be for starting from 12VDC in an emergency.
    Would the Volt even be operable with a completely dead Li/Ion pack?The computer would be programmed not to let it’s charge go completely flat; a dead pack would likely be a sign of serious malfunction.  

    For comparison, the Prius uses an 80 Amp DC-to-DC converter (1000 Watts) to feed the 12V system coupled with a small 12V battery. It also works in reverse to provide the high voltage needed to jump-start the engine if the high voltage battery goes dead.

    It’s really quite a simple and elegant solution since the main power source is always the high voltage system (battery/genset) and does not require a separate alternator. I don’t know how GM has designed the 12V system for the Volt but it would not make much sense to use a separate alternator since you couldn’t rely on either the generator to come on enough to power it nor would you want it to come on just to maintain the 12V battery, nor would it make sense to use the traction motor to run the 12V alternator. I would think the Volt would use a DC-to-DC inverter as well.

    James, Regarding cabin heat, when that is provided electrically, I’m sure it would not use the 12V system, but rather the high voltage system but that may not have been what you meant.


  104. 104
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (2:58 pm)

    BillR: I would like to see the ICE actually run more often in cold weather to provide heat, and not dip so much into the battery pack for this function (resistance heating). After all, most of the grid energy is produced by coal, nuclear, or natural gas power plants, and all these plants reject large quantities of heat in their process. So from an overall energy utilization perspective, I believe it will be more efficient at low ambient temperatures to use the ICE to produce both heat and electricity.

    The ICE will not give no you better than 35% efficiency. Won’t electricity generation in power plants even without cogeneration or two stage processes net far higher efficiencies?


  105. 105
    Jackson

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jackson
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:03 pm)

    EVO: I’ll leave you to figure out on your own the flaws in your latest sweeping generalization as it might apply to real world electric vehicle use.

    You’re starting to be a butt again. Quit it.


  106. 106
    Zachary Taylor

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:17 pm)

    jeffhre:
    The ICE will not give no you better than 35% efficiency. Won’t electricity generation in power plants even without cogeneration or two stage processes net far higher efficiencies?  

    35% refers to what? Mechanical conversion? When regarding the internal combustion engine as a source of heat, we are not really talking about conversion. The remaining 65% ordinarily “lost” as heat in conversion to mechanical energy is what we’re actually trying to “find.” Consider that in most climates, natural gas is a more efficient means of heating a home than resistance heat (which has already been converted from thermal energy to mechanical energy to electrical energy before even being transmitted to your home with additional losses).

    I’m assuming that heat from the engine can be used to warm both the battery and the passenger compartment without using the electrically powered heat pump — certainly this would be easy enough to engineer.


  107. 107
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:25 pm)

    Estero: After living in SW Florida for the past 10+ years, I have the similar thoughts and concerns as CMull about our summer temperatures and its effect on the Volt battery. I had to replace my latest battery just last weekend before expiration of the warranty.

    Is it the humidity? Here in the high desert, 117 f to rarely 8 f , I often have to replace batteries once every 3 to 4 years.


  108. 108
    Zachary Taylor

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:32 pm)

    jeffhre:
    Is it the humidity? Here in the high desert, 117 f to rarely 8 f , I often have to replace batteries once every 3 to 4 years.  

    I believe that humidity may well be a factor. In the Atlanta area I’ve never gotten more than 3 years on a lead-acid battery. The one exception to this was 4 years which included the period of our recent “century drought” (keep in mind that we do not have your extremes in temperature on top of the humidity).

    It’s hard to see how humidity could have an effect on a Li/Ion pack with sealed connections, particularly when not sharing a compartment with the hot engine.


  109. 109
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:37 pm)

    prowler: It bothers me when people on this Board paint him with the same brush as “all the old Detroit executives that should be put out to pasture”. He’s also practical, what did he say, “Why would I buy an original Shelby Cobra – I can buy a jet plane for the same price”.

    Yep practical. That’s what’s really great about Tesla Roadster owners. A terrific sense of humor :)

    Zachary Taylor: I’m assuming that heat from the engine can be used to warm both the battery and the passenger compartment without using the electrically powered heat pump — certainly this would be easy enough to engineer.

    That’s a very good question. Will the plumbing be in place to warm the cabin in ICE waste heat?


  110. 110
    Herm

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Herm
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:40 pm)

    battery quality, under-the-hood temperatures and high drain (listening to the stereo with the engine off) are the most important factors in lead acid battery life.. many cars keep the battery either in a separate insulated compartment or in the trunk ect.

    In places like Phoenix you are lucky if your battery lasts 2 years.. in S. Florida four years are common for regular batteries.. maybe more for top quality ones.

    Check the date code, never buy a battery that has been sitting on a shelf for more than 2-3 months.. preferably less than 1 month.


  111. 111
    Tagamet

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:42 pm)

    Jackson: EVO: I’ll leave you to figure out on your own the flaws in your latest sweeping generalization as it might apply to real world electric vehicle use.

    Jackson:You’re starting to be a butt again. Quit it.

    Rats, you beat me to it.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  112. 112
    jeffhre

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:42 pm)

    EVO: I’ll leave you to figure out on your own the flaws in your latest sweeping generalization as it might apply to real world electric vehicle use.

    Whoaooo there, may wanna stop the bike and fuel up on some carbs, sounds like someones blood sugar may be dippin’ a bit low.


  113. 113
    Tagamet

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:45 pm)

    jeffhre: EVO: I’ll leave you to figure out on your own the flaws in your latest sweeping generalization as it might apply to real world electric vehicle use.

    jeffhre: Whoaooo there, may wanna stop the bike and fuel up on some carbs, sounds like someones blood sugar may be dippin’ a bit low.

    Wow, EVO got the Hat Trick. Almost unheard of.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  114. 114
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:55 pm)

    EVO: For example, Flagstaff, AZ has an average annual temp of 42.3 degrees F with a monthly average maximum temperature peak of 81 degress F, hardly extreme heat, while Toronto has has an average annual temp of 48.4 degrees F, with a monthly average minimum temperature low of 19 degress F, hardly extreme cold.

    I spent a night in flagstaff once at the end of a blazing hot day when the AC had failed. I was never so happy to see the sun set as I was that night. I was a more than little disapointed though when the temperature was still over 85 f, at midnight.


  115. 115
    jeffhre

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:59 pm)

    Tagamet: Wow, EVO got the Hat Trick. Almost unheard of.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    That’s because we know EVO is worth the effort. Now if it was a troll that tried that…Hey what happened to the Volt is vaporware crew?


  116. 116
    James

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:03 pm)

    Zachary Taylor: The Volt does carry a 12 volt battery, but it is not used for starting. It is analogous to the control battery in a large UPS system; a sure source of power for computers managing the 400V battery system (which might be depleted, or charging or otherwise unavailable). As a consequence, the 12 volt battery is not able to produce the large surge associated with starting, but should last longer. What I haven’t been able to find out is if it powers the 12VDC accessories directly, or if there is a DC/DC converter to provide this power which doubles as a device to keep the 12VDC battery charged (from the 400VDC Li/Ion pack).The Volt’s engine is normally started by using it’s direct-coupled generator as a motor, powered directly from the 400VDC pack (which will result in astonishingly fast starts). I do not know what provision there may be for starting from 12VDC in an emergency. Would the Volt even be operable with a completely dead Li/Ion pack? The computer would be programmed not to let it’s charge go completely flat; a dead pack would likely be a sign of serious malfunction.  (Quote)

    Thanks Zach. Today is a great day on GM-Volt.com! Such good sharing of information and subject matter. Thanks to you I have a much better understanding of the Volt’s 12V systems. I still have many questions. If Lyle is listening, I would like to know how the heat pump, defrost systems differ from the EV-1′s. I’m not an engineer, my expertise is more in design, aerodynamics and quality control. But I can always GEEK OUT on GM-Volt.com, lol. Learning how a complex engineering solution to our simple OIL ADDICTION problem is very enjoyable and I hope to educate many others as a by-product of this process.

    RECHARGE! James


  117. 117
    Zachary Taylor

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:05 pm)

    First, let me say that I am genuinely gratified that the Volt will almost certainly rule the North where electric vehicles are concerned.

    However (as other commentors have noted), hot-weather testing of the Volt has been done; but very little detailed information has been released. Hopefully, today’s emphasis on cold-weather testing is due to the current time of year (this detailed information is more topical than it would be in, say, June). If this is the case, I hope that detailed hot-weather information of similar scope is released on the first hot day this Spring. What little has been said about hot-weather Volts is not encouraging, and it may be in GM’s interest to answer Lyle sooner with respect to last year’s hot weather testing.

    It may be that performance will not be compromised in the Southwest and Deep South; but if hot weather reduces the lifetime of the Li/Ion pack it would be significantly bad news. Will as many Volts be allocated to Southern dealerships if there is a reasonable expectation that the pack will be replaced under warranty? GM will want to have some vehicles in the region to gain experience with the hot weather problems, but this could still lead to “slim pickings” in almost half the country. It’s just economics.

    Will Southerners and Westerners have to wait for Gen II? My situation requires me to wait for other reasons, but this would be a bitter pill for many on this board. I suggest that someone at GM address this specific question sooner rather than later.


  118. 118
    EVO

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    EVO
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:14 pm)

    Tagamet: Wow, EVO got the Hat Trick. Almost unheard of.Be well,Tagamet  (Quote)

    +1 to Herm for thinking a little, but y’all left out the most important factor again, consumer behavior.

    Let the negatives flow…

    I gotta stop posting while I’m doing Can Cans, Coffins, Lazy Boys, Dead Bodys, Double and Fender Grabs, Hart Attacks, Indian Airs, Kisses of Death, No Footers, Nothings, Rock Solids, Rodeo Airs, Stale Fishes, Saran Wraps, Sterilizers, Suicide Cans, Supermans and Superman Seat Grabs, Surfers and Tsunamis. They make me act like a butt.


  119. 119
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:17 pm)

    jeffhre:
    I spent a night in flagstaff once at the end of a blazing hot day when the AC had failed. I was never so happy to see the sun set as I was that night. I was a more than little disapointed though when the temperature was still over 85 f, at midnight.  

    You should have gotten out of the car.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  120. 120
    EVO

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    EVO
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:19 pm)

    MuddyRoverRob: EVO,Your extremely aggressive EV or nothing stand is well understood, there is no need to be an arse about it.  (Quote)

    What?

    I support the Volt, which is certainly not an EV or nothing position. How you got that EV or nothing is my position out of merely pointing out that Flagstaff, AZ is colder than average than Toronto, annually, WHICH IT IS, is baffling.

    If you bothered to read my posts, you’d know I also support natural gas and (bio)diesel, BTW. No one is as simple as a three word summary, dude.


  121. 121
    Loboc

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:26 pm)

    jeffhre: That’s a very good question. Will the plumbing be in place to warm the cabin in ICE waste heat?

    I doubt that GM would throw in all that extra plumbing and fittings (that could fail) for something that won’t happen very often (running of the ICE). Maybe it’s a little less efficient, but, running the HVAC systems on electricity alone makes sense from a k.i.s.s. outlook.

    Although we don’t know all the details yet, I hope they are using an heat pump type system that is reversible for either heat or cooling. Along with heated seating (already mentioned) seems to me that it would be more efficient than a resistance-type heater core, for example.


  122. 122
    Zachary Taylor

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:27 pm)

    EVO:
    What?
    I support the Volt, which is certainly not an EV or nothing position. How you got that EV or nothing is my positionout of merely pointing out that Flagstaff, AZ is warmer than Toronto, WHICH IT IS, is baffling.If you bothered to read my posts, you’d know I also support natural gas and (bio)diesel, BTW. No one is as simple as a three word summary, dude.  

    This is less a matter of detail than it is one of tone. You should particularly avoid biting LauraM’s head off, especially after a gracious attempt at reconciliation. Many of us have a “protect our sister” attitude where she is concerned.

    We do consider both of you to be important contributors. Perhaps, as you suggest, you should avoid posting during those very frightening-sounding activities you enumerated (how does one text while performing a “suicide can?”)


  123. 123
    Tagamet

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:28 pm)

    jeffhre: That’s because we know EVO is worth the effort. Now if it was a troll that tried that…Hey what happened to the Volt is vaporware crew?  

    Ditto on the EVO-quest.
    RE the Vaporware trolls, I think that there is a convention this week at Area 51… Either that or they are at the Toyota Hearings.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  124. 124
    MuddyRoverRob

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:31 pm)

    EVO: there is no need to be an arse

    Fine.

    I’ll just quote the critical part of my message.

    “there is no need to be an arse”

    Sadly you don’t seem to ‘get’ that part.


  125. 125
    Dave K.

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave K.
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:33 pm)

    GM will offer some sort of demo drive on the Volt before Leaf pricing and purchase commitments are taken in April.

    If a Volt demo drive program is offered. It will take 7 days for user reviews to spread around EV blogs. Making the Volt demo drive deadline Tuesday March 25th. If the Volt demo drives come in the form of Project Driveway. Demo vehicle delivery (or dealer pick up) will be March 22nd. Which means chosen participants will be advised in the middle of March. Just 3 weeks from now.

    I don’t see GM allowing the April pre-orders of the Leaf to go unchecked. Some sort of Volt drive day (or month) will be very influential to those on the fence. The 2011 Volt is expected to be available to buy and own about 3 or 4 months after the first Leaf are delivered.

    A great way to choose demo drivers is to petition here at gm Volt dot com. We can complete online surveys using our waiting line number and email address as identification. The survey will ask for details concerning our locations: day/night temperatures, work commute, size of family, terrain, percent highway/surface street use, planned road trips.

    =D-Volt


  126. 126
    MuddyRoverRob

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:34 pm)

    Zachary Taylor:
    This is less a matter of detail than it is one of tone.You should particularly avoid biting LauraM’s head off, especially after a gracious attempt at reconciliation.Many of us have a “protect our sister” attitude where she is concerned.We do consider both of you to be important contributors.Perhaps, as you suggest, you should avoid posting during those very frightening-sounding activities you enumerated (how does one text while performing a “suicide can?”  

    Correct! +1


  127. 127
    Tagamet

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:35 pm)

    Zachary Taylor:
    This is less a matter of detail than it is one of tone.You should particularly avoid biting LauraM’s head off, especially after her polite attempt at reconciliation.Many of us have a “protect our sister” attitude where she is concerned.We do consider both of you to be important contributors.Perhaps, as you suggest, you should avoid posting during those very frightening-sounding activities you enumerated.  

    Ditto on all counts – with a special emphasis on the word “tone”. That should be a positive since it’s easily polished. Just rereading my own posts before I hit “submit” helps me a lot.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  128. 128
    Michael

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Michael
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:36 pm)

    Zachary Taylor:
    This is less a matter of detail than it is one of tone.You should particularly avoid biting LauraM’s head off, especially after a gracious attempt at reconciliation.Many of us have a “protect our sister” attitude where she is concerned.  

    Well said. That’s because she *is* our sister.


  129. 129
    Hoang

    -3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Hoang
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:37 pm)

    So now I have to pay for the energy that is to keep the battery/car warm for all the time that I am not using the car? Is this some kinds of a joke?


  130. 130
    EVO

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    EVO
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:40 pm)

    jeffhre: I spent a night in flagstaff once … I was a more than little disapointed though when the temperature was still over 85 f…nbsp; (Quote)

    “At Toronto, … 41.1° C was recorded on the 10th ”

    That 106 degrees F. And it has a marine, temperate climate.

    http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com

    My point, as it almost always is, and apparently unappreciated, was that arguing from the general to the specific and vice versa is perilous and worse, unhelpful to each individual consumer. Giving them pointers how to easily mitigate the extremes through their own behavior is more helpful.

    Example:

    Park in protected climatized areas when you can in extreme weather if you want to take the edge off. Extreme weather places offer lots of them, conveniently located.


  131. 131
    DG

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DG
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:41 pm)

    Hey local Ontarian here!!! Go Canada.


  132. 132
    ClarksonCote

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ClarksonCote
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:43 pm)

    Guys, “same team, same team.”

    For what it’s worth, I’ve been in parts of Arizona on travel for work where the digital temperature in the rental car reads a large negative value, like -50F, because it got hotter than what the thermometer was designed to handle.

    Averages are deceiving, I would personally tend to agree with Laura M’s position. While the average might be similar to Toronto, the extremes certainly are not. I’ve seen Yuma, for example, get as cold as 20F in the morning, and then skyrocket up past 100F during the day. The desert will have bigger extremes with similar averages. I’m going to suggest that these larger extremes will cause more havoc on batteries, and are not represented well by just looking at average temperatures.

    In any case, I think GM is doing significant testing at the extremes to make sure we’re in pretty good shape across the board.


  133. 133
    Zachary Taylor

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:43 pm)

    Loboc: I doubt that GM would throw in all that extra plumbing and fittings (that could fail) for something that won’t happen very often (running of the ICE). Maybe it’s a little less efficient, but, running the HVAC systems on electricity alone makes sense from a k.i.s.s. outlook.

    GM has already installed a great deal of plumbing for the purpose of maintaining the battery at optimum temperature in cold weather; something like 3 heat exchanger loops and associated hardware (and has been criticized for the added complexity. It’s been awhile since this was discussed on the site, so I may have the details wrong). It seems like one would only need a cabin-air heat exchanger core, of the common type, attached to this system which is already there (with little additional complexity) to preserve the precious electric range and gasoline.

    Using the heat pump to extract heat from the ambient air, while a “fire” is metaphorically burning under the hood, strikes me as being very similar to hauling ice to Antarctica. Running the engine for heat uses most of the chemical energy in gasoline directly, with the resulting electricity thrown in as a bonus.

    I can’t imagine that GM would pass up such opportunistic efficiency.


  134. 134
    Blind Guy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Blind Guy
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:47 pm)

    IMHO The bottom line I take from all this information is how important it is for best preventive care of your battery, whether bev or erev is to try and get plug in spaces at your work place or whereever you might frequent the most. It would be good to find out what tax credits or DOE grants are available for employers to install charging stations for employees to help persuade your employer to get them.
    OT Looking forward to Bloom Energy’s announcement Tomorrow.


  135. 135
    Tagamet

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:48 pm)

    Dave K.: GM will offer some sort of demo drive on the Volt before Leaf pricing and purchase commitments are taken in April.
    If a Volt demo drive program is offered. It will take 7 days for user reviews to spread around EV blogs. Making the Volt demo drive deadline Tuesday March 25th. If the Volt demo drives come in the form of Project Driveway. Demo vehicle delivery (or dealer pick up) will be March 22nd. Which means chosen participants will be advised in the middle of March. Just 3 weeks from now.I don’t see GM allowing the April pre-orders of the Leaf to go unchecked. Some sort of Volt drive day (or month) will be very influential to those on the fence. The 2011 Volt is expected to be available to buy and own about 3 or 4 months after the first Leaf are delivered.A great way to choose demo drivers is to petition here at gm Volt dot com. We can complete online surveys using our waiting line number and email address as identification. The survey will ask for details concerning our locations: day/night temperatures, work commute, size of family, terrain, percent highway/surface street use, planned road trips.=D-Volt  

    I don’t know about the specific timing, but I think that if a Project Driveway was undertaken, the vehicles should be in the participants’ possession for at least 2 or 3 months. That’s the only way that enough actual real world data could be gathered to have a shot at being statistically and diagnostically relevant. If it was just being done as a promotional activity, I believe you’re right, it could be for a brief time. JMO.
    Be well,
    Candidate #0002 (aka Tagamet)


  136. 136
    EVO

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    EVO
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:51 pm)

    Zachary Taylor: This is less a matter of detail than it is one of tone. You should particularly avoid biting LauraM’s head off, especially after a gracious attempt at reconciliation. Many of us have a “protect our sister” attitude where she is concerned.We do consider both of you to be important contributors. Perhaps, as you suggest, you should avoid posting during those very frightening-sounding activities you enumerated (how does one text while performing a “suicide can?”)  (Quote)

    Sorry, all. I’ll try to find that “tone” you all are looking for. I genuinely had no intent to attack any poster, just to point out logical fallacies. We have too much FUD out there already.

    To text while performing a suicide can, simply lift one foot off the footpeg and raise leg up and over bike seat. While both legs are on one side of the bike, lift the other foot off the foot peg and extend both legs away from the bike. Remove both hands from handlebars, and text, real fast.


  137. 137
    James

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:54 pm)

    Zachary Taylor #117: ” GM will want to have some vehicles in the region to gain experience with the hot weather problems, but this could still lead to “slim pickings” in almost half the country.”

    Hey, let’s all stay positive here at GM-Volt, OK? I have Tagamet to thank for often reminding me to keep a positive, optimistic tone here – as I call myself the site realist – “Remember the EV-1″. We come here with diverse backgrounds, ages, locales and opinions, yet this place is a GREAT place to come to discuss the future of transportation. It’s fun, even if we agree to disagree. As we all know, it’s difficult to truly know one’s intent and motivation from reading their thoughts in type.

    Let’s try not to nitpick too much on another’s bone to pick, or attitude. It only ruins an otherwise very positive place of discourse. Seriously, most here are of one mind re: The Volt. WE WANT IT, AND WE WANT IT NOW! (well-tested and reliable).

    Zachary, I wouldn’t worry that certain factors may cause “slim pickings” for the Volt. We now know SLIM PICKINGS will be the Volt’s middle name for a couple of years. Perhaps most of us will hope to grab a Gen II. I hope our good spirit here won’t sour because we’re all fighting over a very few available cars. It seems that is where we are headed with supply vastly outnumbering demand.

    Looking back in history to every viable EV ( RAV 4 EV, EV-1 ) we’ve seen drastically regional rollouts and huge lines for a very few units. Look at the numbers GM has announced and Slim Pickin’s'll be singin’ The Voltec Blues for a couple years to come.

    RECHARGE! James


  138. 138
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:55 pm)

    ClarksonCote: Guys, “same team, same team.”

    That’s exactly what we’re shooting for!
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  139. 139
    Dave K.

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave K.
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (4:57 pm)

    “Heat of the day” typically lasts 6 hours. “Cold of the night” about 10 hours. The area below a car is protected from direct sun. And offers coverage from ice and wind. The sealed battery compartment under the Volt has been described as “very well insulated”.

    The Volt will perform fine for nearly all of us. People who live in the most harsh of extremes may need to stay with gasoline engines and block warmers until EV are further tested. It’s a personal choice. Expect good results, but don’t expect miracles from a first year model.

    =D-Volt


  140. 140
    EVO

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    EVO
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:03 pm)

    ClarksonCote: Guys, “same team, same team.”For what it’s worth, I’ve been in parts of Arizona on travel for work where the digital temperature in the rental car reads a large negative value, like -50F, because it got hotter than what the thermometer was designed to handle.Averages are deceiving, I would personally tend to agree with Laura M’s position. While the average might be similar to Toronto, the extremes certainly are not. I’ve seen Yuma, for example, get as cold as 20F in the morning, and then skyrocket up past 100F during the day. The desert will have bigger extremes with similar averages. I’m going to suggest that these larger extremes will cause more havoc on batteries, and are not represented well by just looking at average temperatures.In any case, I think GM is doing significant testing at the extremes to make sure we’re in pretty good shape across the board.  (Quote)

    So, is a daily range from 20 to 103 for one month, with one hour at each extreme, with a month of 40 to 83 daily range on either side worse than three months nonstop at 90 (the southeast US)?

    It’s not so simple, is it? Or is it?


  141. 141
    Itching4it

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Itching4it
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:07 pm)

    Bruce wrote:
    Just more unnecessary testing that we could be doing. I’ve never driven a perfect car, and I’m not sure I would want to. Since more than likely, GM is going to maintain ownership of the batteries anyway, why not let us do the testing?

    ————-

    Now you are scaring me, and it is not about the testing. I have been 100% sold on getting a Volt as early as possible, but I have one non-negotiable condition: I have to own the entire vehicle. After the EV1 fiasco I would NEVER let GM retain ownership of any essential part of it. Tell me it isn’t true!


  142. 142
    Itching4it

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Itching4it
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:12 pm)

    Itching4it: Bruce wrote:
    Just more unnecessary testing that we could be doing. I’ve never driven a perfect car, and I’m not sure I would want to. Since more than likely, GM is going to maintain ownership of the batteries anyway, why not let us do the testing?

    Now you are scaring me, and it is not about the testing. I have been 100% sold on getting a Volt as early as possible, but I have one non-negotiable condition: I have to own the entire vehicle. After the EV1 fiasco I would NEVER let GM retain ownership of any essential part of it. Tell me it isn’t true!  


  143. 143
    Dave K.

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave K.
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:20 pm)

    Itching4it: Now you are scaring me, …Tell me it isn’t true!

    Good point itching…

    There is definitely a period of time when releasing information is considered too early. Only 8000 Volt will be available this year. My guess is about 1/2 of these are already sold through management agreement. Such as Lyle’s (I’ll set one aside for you) Volt.

    When is providing information too late? It may never be. GM has a line on dealer inquiry count. And monitors internet sites. If 200,000 people are seriously wanting to buy 70,000 vehicles. Why say anything more until January 2011?

    =D-Volt


  144. 144
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:25 pm)

    EVO: To text while performing a suicide can, simply lift one foot off the footpeg and raise leg up and over bike seat. While both legs are on one side of the bike, lift the other foot off the foot peg and extend both legs away from the bike. Remove both hands from handlebars, and text, real fast.

    Outstanding, send video…no, wait, don’t do that!!!

    I do enjoy when folks are precise and specific in analysing others comments, and write about their disagreements clearly and logically. Broad colorful statements from either side that don’t address a specific point, will come acrsoss as personal rather than OT.


  145. 145
    Zachary Taylor

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:25 pm)

    James: SLIM PICKINGS will be the Volt’s middle name for a couple of years

    “Slim pickings when compared to availability in more Northerly regions.” Does that help?

    The cause of the Volt is not served by a nice, uniform, Pollyanna outlook on the part of all. It has been revealed many times in the past that GM engineers and executives do read gm-volt.com. Constructive criticism is exactly that. If you are one of those executives, why do you need to log on to a web log of smiling “yes man” drivel? I’m raising questions which I hope will be addressed, in the belief that it will help improve both the Volt’s prospects and the Volt itself.

    There is a difference between simple optimism and caring. If you are a parent, you are optimistic about your child’s future. This doesn’t mean that he or she won’t hear your displeasure when they fail to do and behave as well as you know they can. You are not nit-picking or dissing them (whether they understand that or not), you just want them to live up to their potential. The phrase “Tough love” is a bit worn by now, but you get the idea. I’m not on here with the express purpose of dissing the Volt in favor of a competing product, like some other regulars most of us could name.

    We used to have a regular poster here who could really take the wind out of your sails with his comments, but most understood that we were benefiting from his vast knowledge and experience in business. He still drops by from time to time; even though things have gone better than he thought they might, and we still think well of him.

    You strike me as a relatively new participant. If you haven’t been around for the 3 years this site has been up (neither have I, but I have been here for much of that time, under 2 names), you may not recall all of the challenges we have had to deal with here. Most of us old-timers blanch at the mere mention of EV-1, we’d get 3 trolls a day parroting propaganda from “Who Killed the Electric Car?” (short answer: Economics). I don’t know where most of the original “The Volt is only Vaporware” crowd has gone, but the “Toyo-trolls” are likely all hiding under their beds listening to newscasts. I expect they’ll return once the current Toyo-Tsunami has blown over. I only bring this up to point out that you really have not seen anything yet.

    … Didn’t SLIM PICKINGS used to appear in Westerns?


  146. 146
    Tall Pete

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tall Pete
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:26 pm)

    EVO: For example, Flagstaff, AZ has an average annual temp of 42.3 degrees F with a monthly average maximum temperature peak of 81 degress F, hardly extreme heat, while Toronto has has an average annual temp of 48.4 degrees F, with a monthly average minimum temperature low of 19 degress F, hardly extreme cold.

    Toronto is more than 6 degrees warmer than Flagstaff, AZ on average.

    That’s quite surprising, really. Looking at a map, I’m pretty sure that Arizona is closer to the equator than Toronto. In the winter, I’m pretty sure it’s colder in Toronto than Arizona, with temperatures around or below 0C most of the time.

    I’ve seen ice skating rings in Toronto; in Arizona, nah…. not so much.


  147. 147
    Exp_EngTech

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Exp_EngTech
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:26 pm)

    On Li-ion battery construction (and temp specs), there is a great new detailed article on EnerDel now up over at Green Car Congress. Don’t miss it.

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/02/cooke-enerdel-20100223.html#more


  148. 148
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:29 pm)

    Dave K.: If 200,000 people are seriously wanting to buy 70,000 vehicles. Why say anything more until January 2011?

    Toyota’s green Halo? :) – Some people take the competitiom thing really seriously.


  149. 149
    Stas Peterson

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Stas Peterson
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:37 pm)

    Living in Phoenix, one learns that batteries die frequently. It used to pay to buy the top of the line battery with a 5 year warantee knowing that it would die by yearend three, and you could get a new one free. The battery makers wised up, and changed their prorated life rules. But reduced battery life is, but it is a routine of living in the hottest city in the world.

    Our Population grows topsy turvey as people l flee TOWARD Phoenix’s Global Warming.


  150. 150
    jeffhre

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:37 pm)

    Zachary Taylor: … Didn’t SLIM PICKINGS used to appear in Westerns?

    High pitched voice and a hilariously funny guy. Think he did a bit of Country / estern performing and was in the Movie Dr. Strangelove. This generation though is instead blessed with the performance stylings of Slim Thug.


  151. 151
    Ed M

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Ed M
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:41 pm)

    Exp_EngTech: On Li-ion battery construction (and temp specs), there is a great new detailed article on EnerDel now up over at Green Car Congress. Don’t miss it.http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/02/cooke-enerdel-20100223.html#more  (Quote)

    Thankyou for sharing this article. How does the enerdel battery compare to the Chevy Volt battery ?


  152. 152
    MuddyRoverRob

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:47 pm)

  153. 153
    EVO

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    EVO
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:49 pm)

    Tall Pete: I’ve seen ice skating rings in Toronto; in Arizona, nah…. not so much.  (Quote)

    Well, the Flagstaff skating rink is temporarily closed due to heavy snowfall, so you got me there:

    http://www.flagstaff.az.gov/index.aspx?NID=63

    But as soon as it gets warm enough so they can deal with all that snow, they’ll get it back in order.

    :)


  154. 154
    Zachary Taylor

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:51 pm)

    Zachary Taylor: … Didn’t SLIM PICKINGS used to appear in Westerns?

    jeffhre:
    High pitched voice and a hilariously funny guy. Think he did a bit of Country / estern performing and was in the Movie Dr. Strangelove. This generation though is instead blessed with the performance stylings of Slim Thug.  

    … For you kids, his name was “Slim Pickens” (my somewhat lame attempt at humor). You may have seen him in Mel Brooks’ “Blazing Saddles,” and the last of the “Back to the Future” movies: “Whut kind of a name is Eastwood?”


  155. 155
    Itching4it

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Itching4it
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:55 pm)

    David:
    I’m guessing the ICE would never start on its own without someone in the driver seat; that would certainly freak somebody out standing nearby if it did!  

    Twenty years ago I would have said exactly the same thing about a radiator fan turning itself on when a car was turned off and no one was in it.


  156. 156
    Dave K.

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave K.
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (5:56 pm)

    Nissan claims that 50,000+ people have placed a $100 (refundable) deposit on the new Leaf. Wasn’t that long ago Dodge sold out the new Challenger months before delivery. This event was followed by a solid year of back order only availability on the Chevy Camaro.

    Nissan announced that they will sell the Leaf (body and battery) to the buyer. Nissan will also offer lease agreement (body and battery). The sales/lease numbers on the first 30,000 Leaf are much anticipated. It’s likely that 30,000 Leaf will be sold before the Volt goes into production in November of this year.

    Don’t know about you. But I would love to rent a Leaf or a Volt for a few days. There’s a very good chance the Leaf will be available to rent by September.

    =D-Volt


  157. 157
    Zachary Taylor

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:04 pm)

    Oops, it must have been a mimic in “Back to the Future 3″ (1990) since Slim Pickens passed away in 1983.

    Being deceased myself, I should really be more careful. ;-)


  158. 158
    Michael

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Michael
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:10 pm)

    Zachary Taylor: Being deceased myself, I should really be more careful.   

    Z.T. that has got to be the quote of the day. Somebody quick, write it on the wall so we can remember it.

    BTW, is Slim related to T. Boone Pickens. ;-)


  159. 159
    Tagamet

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:16 pm)

    Zachary Taylor: It may be that performance will not be compromised in the Southwest and Deep South; but if hot weather reduces the lifetime of the Li/Ion pack it would be significantly bad news. Will as many Volts be allocated to Southern dealerships if there is a reasonable expectation that the pack will be replaced under warranty? GM will want to have some vehicles in the region to gain experience with the hot weather problems, but this could still lead to “slim pickings” in almost half the country. It’s just economics.

    Hi ZT,
    Another possibility is that the brilliant, prescient, engineers at GM, may have built the battery with twice the usable capacity, in order to account for the huge range of potential temperatures that the Volts will experience! Early speculation here centered on the idea that they built it that size in order to cover the possibility that many would have to be replaced before the 10 year clock ran out. Maaaaaybe they actually sized it like that to cover the temperature ranges it’d need to perform in – and still last 10 years. If *that’s* the case, it’ll make little difference where in the US it’s released into the wild. Hey, it’s possible…
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  160. 160
    EVO

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    EVO
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:19 pm)

    Tall Pete: I’m pretty sure it’s colder in Toronto than Arizona, with temperatures around or below 0C most of the time.   (Quote)

    Arizona gets as low as -40 degrees F in the winter. That’s -40 degrees C. Does it get to -40 C in Toronto?

    Cm’here till I tells ya, arguing from general to specific or specific to general is all kinds of trouble, boyo.


  161. 161
    Hoang

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Hoang
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:20 pm)

    How about the test of sudden acceleration in extreme hot/cold weather when the CPU/wire could fail?

    I don’t want to buy a car with ability to take off without the landing capibility!

    I like to know more about the safty features than the performace ones.


  162. 162
    Zachary Taylor

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:20 pm)

    Itching4it:
    Now you are scaring me, and it is not about the testing. I have been 100% sold on getting a Volt as early as possible, but I have one non-negotiable condition: I have to own the entire vehicle. After the EV1 fiasco I would NEVER let GM retain ownership of any essential part of it. Tell me it isn’t true!    

    If the Volt is rolled out early for a “Project Driveway” type of test market, and you are chosen to be a participant, you will actually not own any part of the Volt. You will only have use of it for a couple of months.

    If, once the Volt is available for sale, you go to a dealer and buy one, you will own both the Volt and it’s battery … unless it is later replaced under warranty. You will then own the replacement battery (GM will own the old one, which they will likely test and dissect to find out why it went belly-up).

    By contrast, until recently it was thought that the Nissan LEAF would only be available as a body, with the battery leased. This was likely a transparent attempt to quote a price well below that of the Volt; a ruse which evidently backfired on them. The LEAF hopeful were probably as enthusiastic about a leased battery pack as most of us are, here.


  163. 163
    James

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:21 pm)

    Ah Yes, Slim Pickens – Do I have to admit I know of him well?… He is a character, for sure :o )

    My point wasn’t to say we need to be Polly-Annas re: GM and the Volt. I guess I’ve been here for 3 years and only used to post an observation once every two weeks or so – thus nobody knows or remembers me. I did, however, raise some ire back then as I think I was one of those “Who Killed The Electric Car” citers. I still fancy myself one of the true realists here, and by far no GM fan-boy. I own a Prius and talk about it often here lately, including it’s major flaws ( i.e. the present headlight fiasco the media has yet to discover ). I love my Prius though, with all it’s shortcomings. The other day a mixed drive of sixty miles on Interstate 5, state highway and local roads garnered 57 mpg round trip with fan-heat on low and three adults and two small kids aboard! That’s not every day I see those results but it happens on longer trips when I work at it.

    GM will have to win me over again ( I own a 1957 Chevy truck – IMO back when they made good stuff ), and the Volt could very well win me back to an American made car. I want to be optimistic here and yet I point out the past as the best indicator of what the future could bring. Remember, please how the engineers behind the EV-1 including Mr. Farah were so optimistic and motivated back then about their baby. It was the corporate “braintrust” – the executive board of GM who shut it down before it got started. So we see here on this website, the difference today between the glowing, successful, motivated, intelligent cutting edge engineers and technicians Lyle interviews and the negative, underwhelmed execs who quote costs and loss leaders… Have we heard this before everybody?

    So far, we know one thing for sure. The Volt will be sold, but it will be slowly, gradually and minimally doled out regionally and politically. Initial factory runs through 2011 will be miniscule. This is what the GM execs have told us, again and again. The “halo car” lingo is disturbing at best.

    So GM prove me wrong!!! I WANT to be wrong. If you ask Tag, of late I have been contributing here for a few weeks, nearly every single day – and largely due to him and other optimists here, I have striven to strike a positive note when I can – Because I want a Volt and am a man of faith. I believe GM can change it’s colors – and this is the perfect time. I believe they can pull a Prius-type success out of the hat here with Volt.

    RECHARGE! James


  164. 164
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:23 pm)

    Zachary Taylor: Being deceased myself, I should really be more careful. ;-)

    If it’s not to personal, what’s it like? I’m really curious.
    Be cool,
    Tagamet


  165. 165
    Zachary Taylor

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:27 pm)

    Tagamet:
    Hi ZT,
    Another possibility is that the brilliant, prescient, engineers at GM, may have built the battery with twice the usable capacity, in order to account for the huge range of potential temperatures that the Volts will experience! Early speculation here centered on the idea that they built it that size in order to cover the possibility that many would have to be replaced before the 10 year clock ran out. Maaaaaybe they actually sized it like that to cover the temperature ranges it’d need to perform in – and still last 10 years. If *that’s* the case, it’ll make little difference where in the US it’s released into the wild. Hey, it’s possible…
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Yes, it most certainly is.

    I actually have little against optimism; my concerns have been expressed, and hopefully some warm-weather versions of today’s reassurances will be swiftly forthcoming.


  166. 166
    Zachary Taylor

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:31 pm)

    Tagamet:
    If it’s not to personal, what’s it like? I’m really curious.
    Be cool,
    Tagamet  

    (emphasis mine)

    Yes, it do.


  167. 167
    Zachary Taylor

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:43 pm)

    James

    Yes, GM does have a lot of history to undo, I don’t think any of us deny it.

    So it’s not you who are new, it’s a new outlook. I must say I like it. Dare I call it a sign of … hope?

    ZT


  168. 168
    nuclearboy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    nuclearboy
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:47 pm)

    LauraM: But I’m sure it will still have a shorter lifespand in Arizona vs. Toronto.

    I agree LauraM, people in the low areas of AZ see temps above 100 routinely. They see highs over 120 occasionally. Think about parking on asphalt at your work on one of those 115 degree days. That would really cook the battery. Those types of temperatures just don’t happen in places near me, or in Toronto….


  169. 169
    James

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:50 pm)

    Hoang: How about the test of sudden acceleration in extreme hot/cold weather when the CPU/wire could fail?I don’t want to buy a car with ability to take off without the landing capibility!I like to know more about the safty features than the performace ones.  (Quote)

    Amen, Hoang. I’m sure we’ll get into the safety sector here as all areas seem to get covered from one day to the next.

    I am not satisfied with Toyota’s safety, as recent stories come into the light. I am not satisfied that my Prius has sufficient duality in all systems to feel 100% safe for my family. I want GM to show me it’s ironed out backup systems for drive-by-wire componentry.

    RECHARGE! James


  170. 170
    Exp_EngTech

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Exp_EngTech
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:51 pm)

    Ed M: Thankyou for sharing this article. How does the enerdel battery compare to the Chevy Volt battery ?  (Quote)

    EnerDel THINK pack info…..(“EnerDel uses a layered manganese oxide cathode technology”)
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/enerdel-ships-f.html

    Volt Uses LG Chem Cells….(“…a manganese-based cathode chemistry with additives to improve its lifespan under high-temperature conditions…”)
    http://www.compactpower.com/Documents/MicrosoftWord-LG_Chem_pressrelease_finalon20080110.pdf


  171. 171
    jeffhre

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:53 pm)

    Tagamet: Maaaaaybe they actually sized it like that to cover the temperature ranges it’d need to perform in – and still last 10 years. If *that’s* the case, it’ll make little difference where in the US it’s released into the wild. Hey, it’s possible…
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Until residual value is considered.

    This letter sent by a friend of Tagamets who works at worldwide residual EV battery brokers, reverse mortgage division – dated 2021.

    Dear Sir,
    Upon analysis it appears that your 10 year old battery maintains just enough charge to not qualify for replacement under the manufacturers original warranty. Though I tested one from a gentleman that lives 500 miles north of you, same driving conditions and hours of use as yours, and remarkably his residual value is $800 more than yours.


  172. 172
    Blind Guy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Blind Guy
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:54 pm)

    #156 Dave K Nissan claims that 50,000+ people have placed a $100 (refundable) deposit on the new Leaf.
    Hi Dave, from what I understood, there are around 50,000 people on that want list however the 100.00 dollar refundable deposit won’t be taken until some time in April. I believe they may have a vehicle you can test drive at that time. The initial 4700 to 5000 people in the initial roll out cities should get theirs by the end of the summer. Hertz car rental may be part of that number? I don’t think 30,000 cars are being built in the first year. 60,000 are planned for 2012 . If you have an article I would appreciate it. The Leaf might still be an option for us if we can get charging at my wife’s work place. Thx.


  173. 173
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:57 pm)

    Tagamet:
    I don’t know about the specific timing, but I think that if a Project Driveway was undertaken, the vehicles should be in the participants’ possession for at least 2 or 3 months. That’s the only way that enough actual real world data could be gathered to have a shot at being statistically and diagnostically relevant. If it was just being done as a promotional activity, I believe you’re right, it could be for a brief time. JMO.
    Be well,
    Candidate #0002 (aka Tagamet)  

    Hey Tag,

    That’s a good point about how many months for live field research. That might have a slight timing conflict with the promotional timing of a month or two, but, we’ll see what GM needs to do.

    On the heat testing side of the coin, if GM needs us in the Southwest to wait for Gen 2, then that is what we must do. I’d still be happy when all those Volts start getting driven by anyone.
    I think that it would certainly be OK for the Battery Division to at least give some hints about the need for Gen2 for the heat of the Southwest, though. That would let us down here change our plans to be a little more relaxed about scheduling certain things if that were needing to be the case.

    I still think that the software can be made to eliminate most, if not all, the thermal risks to the battery due to higher outside ambient heat well after when the battery is already done its job for the day.


  174. 174
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (6:59 pm)

    James: …So far, we know one thing for sure. The Volt will be sold, but it will be slowly, gradually and minimally doled out regionally and politically. Initial factory runs through 2011 will be miniscule. This is what the GM execs have told us, again and again. The “halo car” lingo is disturbing at best.

    So GM prove me wrong!!! I WANT to be wrong. If you ask Tag, of late I have been contributing here for a few weeks, nearly every single day – and largely due to him and other optimists here, I have striven to strike a positive note when I can – Because I want a Volt and am a man of faith. I believe GM can change it’s colors – and this is the perfect time. I believe they can pull a Prius-type success out of the hat here with Volt.

    So we’ll put you in the “once burned, twice shy” category. Thanks for sharing your “background” experiences – it always helps to put things in context. Although I can understand your Deja vu fears, a great deal of evidence that things are different now has accrued. You’ve been here, so I don’t need to list the differences between what’s happening now and what went on last century.
    Thanks for trying to keep things positive, or even realistic (if you must – g). I know that it takes effort, but it’s an effort that the vast majority of folks here make – and it’s a far better place for it.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  175. 175
    jeffhre

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:06 pm)

    I just guessing on this so don’t hold me to it. But I feel if the Volt engineers are going to this much trouble to get it right in the cold, they are not very likely to throw up their hands in exasperation and say, oh good grief lets not tax this darn cooling system, we’ll get the hot weather stuff right for generatonII Volts.


  176. 176
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:16 pm)

    jeffhre: Until residual value is considered.
    This letter sent by a friend of Tagamets who works at worldwide residual EV battery brokers, reverse mortgage division – dated 2021.
    Dear Sir,
    Upon analysis it appears that your 10 year old battery maintains just enough charge to not qualify for replacement under the manufacturers original warranty. Though I tested one from a gentleman that lives 500 miles north of you, same driving conditions and hours of use as yours, and remarkably his residual value is $800 more than yours.  

    I thought *I* was the Joker around here. Seriously, one of the engineers interviewed here made it crystal clear that the warranty was not on a residual value basis – it was for replacement. Maybe someone (Lyle?) can provide a link to that thread. It may even have been in one of the live chats.
    In *any case*, I’ll consider myself twice (more) blessed if your scenario plays out accurately.
    A) It’s mean I actually GOT a 2011 Volt!, and *very* secondary to that B) I’d still be opening mail in 2021! Therefore C ) I’d be driving so slowly by then (just trying to see the road), that my speed would top out at ~35 mph (on the Interstate) and I’d finally get maximum AER (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  177. 177
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:19 pm)

    Zachary Taylor: Tagamet:
    If it’s not to personal, what’s it like? I’m really curious.
    Be cool,
    Tagamet

    (emphasis mine)

    Yes, it do.

    pun intended, too (g)
    Be a LOT better,
    Tagamet


  178. 178
    Michael

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Michael
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:22 pm)

    Zachary Taylor: Tagamet:
    If it’s not to personal, what’s it like? I’m really curious. Be cool, Tagamet

    (emphasis mine) Yes, it do.

    Z.T. That’s what I was thinking when Tag asked the question. But then, considering the topic of the day, and the self-disclosed people of faith here, I decided for some it “Be Cool” for others it “Be Hot.” All depends where the deceased head. ;-)


  179. 179
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:24 pm)

    jeffhre: I just guessing on this so don’t hold me to it. But I feel if the Volt engineers are going to this much trouble to get it right in the cold, they are not very likely to throw up their hands in exasperation and say, oh good grief lets not tax this darn cooling system, we’ll get the hot weather stuff right for generatonII Volts.  

    Well, perhaps.

    But, as close as we are to November, (And, even though production numbers will be initially low), I think it would be the right thing to do to begin suggesting some hints that Gen1 will or will not be available in the hot Southwest, because we aren’t talking about planning to spend only about $20,000 here.

    We are considering spending a lot more than that. It would only be fair to begin to formulate a few well-considered hints. Few companies have only a 6 month business plan, and, it really would be highly considerate to go ahead and do an appropriate underpromise in this regard.
    (I don’t mean to put pressure on the situation.)

    What does everyone else think?

    (Besides, if I need to wait for two or three more years, I might consider to go ahead and build an electric three wheel motorcycle with my EV friends in the meantime. (In addition to buying a Volt if it is apparent that we may need to wait after all, which would be OK by me.))


  180. 180
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:26 pm)

    #12 Tagamet:
    After ONE year? OUCH! Was it still under warranty? I hope that they aren’t underselling *how* bad the heat will be on the Volts’ battery! If it was bad on batteries in general, wouldn’t the LEAF have been released in more moderate climes? Especially since it has little of the TLC treatment the Volts’ battery gets.
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Tag, as you know battery pack durability under hot weather conditions has been one of my primary concerns down here in Southern Texas. I have not researched the battery chemistry of Nissan Leaf. Everything depends on the chemistry used. New materials for cathodes and anodes are being studied every day to find the right one for a broad range of temperatures. Nissan must be confident enough about their battery technology to deploy the Leaf in Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona, during their roll-out.
    Although the Volt has a better management system, the issue of high temperatures still remains. I do believe that the ability to precondition the cabin during charging periods extends to the use of the A/C system to do likewise for the battery pack. It may very well be that a Volt will be just like all of us humans ( :) ) down here seeking a mall like atmosphere for our Volts as well as ourselves. We may end up seeing enclosed heated/cooled parking lots for electric vehicles. By using advanced insulating materials in construction of these parking areas, the cost of heating/cooling them would be less. Or at least covered parking lots with charging point installed nearby.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  181. 181
    Michael

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Michael
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:29 pm)

    Dan Petit: (Besides, if I need to wait for two or three more years, I might consider to go ahead and build an electric three wheel motorcycle with my EV friends in the meantime.(In addition to buying a Volt if it is apparent that we may need to wait after all, which would be OK by me.))  

    So, just how much might you be wantin’ for one of them thar ‘lectric Trikes? By the time you get some built I might think about gettin’ one. What kind of AER you ‘spectin’? It would have to go 35mph on the Interstate for Tag and I. ;-)


  182. 182
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:40 pm)

    Michael:
    So, just how much might you be wantin’ for one of them thar EV Trikes?By the time you get some built I might think about gettin’ one.It would have to go 35mph on the Interstate for Tag and I.   

    Hey Micheal,
    Cruise at 60 mph, occasionally to 70 mph for passing, average speed of 45 mph, range of 40 miles, a Honda 3000iu for range extension at outbound destination. Very aerodynamic fiberglass body, weight of less than 750 pounds. Li-ion prismatic format. 120/240 fast charging. Cost to build, unknown. But not hard to calculate. I’ll crunch some numbers for you if it looks like it’ll be a Gen2 for me instead of a Gen1.


  183. 183
    Michael

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Michael
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:49 pm)

    Dan Petit:
    Hey Micheal,Cruise at 60 mph, occasionally to 70 mph for passing, average speed of 45 mph, range of 40 miles, a Honda 3000iu for range extension at outbound destination.Very aerodynamic fiberglass body, weight of less than 750 pounds. Li-ion prismatic format. 120/240 fast charging.Cost to build,unknown.But not hard to calculate.I’ll crunch some numbers for you if it looks like it’ll be a Gen2 for me instead of a Gen1.  

    That’d be great. Right now there is a ICE powered fiberglass body Trike called the Stallion, by Motortrike. ~$30,000 It has a 2.3l Ford ICE in it. My Goldwing weighs more than 750lbs. (The 35 mph comment was a reference to Tag’s comment at #176. It’s an old age thing (g).)


  184. 184
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (7:58 pm)

    Michael:
    That’d be great.Right now there is a ICE powered fiberglass body Trike called the Stallion, by Motortrike.It has a 2.3l Ford ICE in it.My Goldwing weighs more than 750lbs.(The 35 mph comment was a reference to Tag’s comment at #176.It’s an old age thing (g).  

    I looked at something like that here in Austin. It also had air conditioning, a round steering wheel, and, overall, it was way to “car” like for me. It was $38,000, and, it had a cockpit like a
    a canoe. It was too big, and, the bulk of it and the tires were just too “car” like.

    I’m thinking of something very streamlined, a tandem two seat, partially raised “canoe” for lower cd, not as wide, maybe only 38 to 42 inches in back, but I’ve got to stop talking off- topic before I get into trouble with the topic moderator (g./wink).


  185. 185
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:26 pm)

    #67 Dan Petit: The Volt will be coming to Austin in May at the Austin Convention Center.

    Thats great news, Dan. Thanks for the info! I only hope my sons graduation isn’t at the same time. I’d love to be able to come up to the convention, and see/touch the Volt. :)

    Do you have the actual dates in May? TIA.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  186. 186
    Red HHR

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Red HHR
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:29 pm)

    Yahoo! they got a Volt stuck. The joy, to be able to have a Volt to get stuck in the frozen north.
    OK, I want to know the 3D’s

    Depth of snow…
    Density of snow…
    Distance of snow pushed…

    The results determine my call in depth. Open up the garage door, 6″ call in on the HHR. 12″ call in on the Colorado. Relevant question, its snowing out.

    Cheers


  187. 187
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:34 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    Thats great news, Dan. Thanks for the info! I only hope my sons graduation isn’t at the same time. I’d love to be able to come up to the convention, and see/touch the Volt.
    Do you have the actual dates in May? TIA.Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    I don’t recall the dates, but I’ll find out tomorrow and other details too.
    I’ll probably have my Winnebago there across the street throwing a Volt/EV party,
    (oops, I wasn’t supposed to say that yet), but, anyway, diagonally across the street is a parking lot where I will be hosting a /Volt/EV party that afternoon/evening.
    I’d like to invite any of the GM pros as well. I’d be really tickled to get any acceptance to it right here.
    Maybe you can come and join the BBQ party as well if there isn’t a scheduling conflict?


  188. 188
    Dave K.

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave K.
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:41 pm)

    Blind Guy: #156 Dave K Nissan claims that 50,000+ people have placed a $100 (refundable) deposit on the new Leaf.
    Hi Dave, from what I understood, there are around 50,000 people on that want list however the 100.00 dollar refundable deposit won’t be taken until some time in April.

    How and when you can get a Leaf:

    Register at http://www.NissanUSA.com. But you’ll be behind 50,000 others who’ve already learned about the process and signed up.

    Reserve your car, for a refundable $100 deposit, in April, about the time the prices are announced.

    Order your Leaf in August, for delivery whenever sales begin in your area.

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/02/how-to-buy-a-nissan-leaf-electric-car-/1

    =D-Volt

    Very interested to hear feedback from the first 50,000 Leaf owners. How did Nissan get around the dealer network? Is it legal take deposits online? We are already behind 50,000 buyers.


  189. 189
    Red HHR

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Red HHR
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:48 pm)

    Just to through a stone in the pond of Volt pricing… Just thinking of Ed’s comment to Lyle of low 30′s so lets say Lyle can buy a Volt for 33k. Then Lutz says the Volt well be close to 40. So Sam on street can buy a Volt for 39k. Could the difference be explained by the rebate? Lets presume Lyle’s price is before rebate. How can that be? Well Lyle has a GM card (just guessing) and he gets the max 4k discount. Also the first 60k people on Lyles “Want List” get a 2k coupon for the Volt. Voila! everybody is right.

    Chears


  190. 190
    bruce

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    bruce
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:50 pm)

    Thank you for you comments. Saturn replaced the battery without any problems. I would be more than happy to supply the VIN to anyone at GM for a f/u. My E-mail is BBERENSON@POL.NET. I am keeping the car even though no more Saturn. I would have loved to make it a plug-in.


  191. 191
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (8:59 pm)

    Anyone else close enough to Austin to consider coming to the Austin Convention Center in May to see the Volt? I’ll be hosting a Volt/EV BBQ party under the awning of my Winnebago, and, it would be neat to get to meet GM Volt friends.


  192. 192
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:16 pm)

    #84 prowler: Take my word for it from firsthand experience – cold Li-ions lose power.

    Your word is good. Only, the battery pack conditioned temperature, even when it is below freezing outside, will be around 72 degrees. This temperature is the battery packs ideal temperature and it will give maximum performance.

    When the Volt is out in cold weather for extended periods, the ICE will start and condition the battery pack for about three minutes. If the vehicle is used every day, the battery pack will be near its ideal temperature because of its insulation. In this situation, the reserve (30%) power in the pack will be able to provide the needed heat to get the pack back up to its ideal temp.

    The only real problem is extended periods of high or low temperature where the pack can not be plugged in to use the grid to maintain conditioning. For owners like me in the southern states, a little planning to insure that the Volt is plugged in while being parked should adequately solve this problem. As a long time follower of ICE conversion to EV, I have read stories of using a Mall store’s power to plug in while shopping their store. I will give those businesses my dollars if they reciprocate by letting me charge up while there. There are numerous methods of insuring the battery pack will remain cool under hot weather. A little advanced planning is all that is necessary. In no time at all, you can determine where to plug in during those times away from the super protective home charging point. Cities like Seattle and Bolder Colorado are examples where you will find all sorts of charging locations cropping up in support of the EV wave. Utilities will gladly welcome the newly created business that this technology brings us. Having read the many comments on this website, I no longer see this problem as one that can not and will not be overcome.

    Like many farmers have incorporated sun screening for creation of outdoor green tents, where the crops are grown outside instead of a green house, and protected from the damaging effects of hot sunlight that weakens the plants making them vulnerable to pests, the sunscreen is an easy solution to protecting the EV from hot climates. It deflects the infrared radiation keeping the Volt cooler while allowing maximum ventilation from air currents. Here in the Valley many homes are built with no garage and a sunscreen is a perfect solution to moderate the hot climate. On days when it gets extremely hot (above 100 degrees), the plug must be in the outlet to allow A/C to keep the pack cool.

    The Volt is looking better every day! I do, however, look forward to more information about how the Volt coupes with hot climates.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again


  193. 193
    MuddyRoverRob

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MuddyRoverRob
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:23 pm)

    Dan Petit: I looked at something like that here in Austin.It also had air conditioning, a round steering wheel, and, overall, it was way to “car” like for me.It was $38,000, and, it had a cockpit like a
    a canoe.It was too big, and, the bulk of it and the tires were just too “car” like. I’m thinking of something very streamlined, a tandem two seat, partially raised “canoe” for lower cd,not as wide, maybe only 38 to 42 inches in back,butI’ve got to stop talking off- topic before I get into trouble with the topic moderator (g./wink).  

    Off Topic reply to an Off Topic post!

    The Riley XR3 home built 3 wheeler can be a small diesel or electric or both.

    Way cheaper than a prebuilt, but a LOT more work!
    They have a moderately busy yahoo chat group.


  194. 194
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:34 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    Thats great news, Dan. Thanks for the info! I only hope my sons graduation isn’t at the same time. I’d love to be able to come up to the convention, and see/touch the Volt.
    Do you have the actual dates in May? TIA.Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    Hey LRGVProVolt,

    I have the information for the showing of the Volt in Austin.

    The dates are May the 14th, Friday, the 15th, Saturday, and the 16th, Sunday.

    you can get maps and more info at

    http://www.autoshowaustin.com

    it is hosted by the Austin Auto Dealers Association.


  195. 195
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:35 pm)

    #187 Dan Petit:
    I don’t recall the dates, but I’ll find out tomorrow and other details too.
    I’ll probably have my Winnebago there across the street throwing a Volt/EV party,
    (oops, I wasn’t supposed to say that yet),but, anyway, diagonally across the street is a parking lot where I will be hosting a /Volt/EV party that afternoon/evening.
    I’d like to invite any of the GM pros as well.I’d be really tickled to get any acceptance to it right here.Maybe you can come and join the BBQ party as well if there isn’t a scheduling conflict?  

    That is one invitation I will gladly accept, Dan. Like I said earlier, my sons graduation may interfere. I have my fingers crossed. Even my wife thought it would be a nice trip up to Austin. The great part of it is she will get to see the Volt too. She mentioned seeing a Nissan Leaf advertisement and began asking me all sorts of questions about it and how the Volt is different. :) Maybe she is listening to my gibberish (her term for it) about the Volt!

    Only one more question to what I have already asked – What would you like me to bring to the BBQ party?

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  196. 196
    Red HHR

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Red HHR
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:35 pm)

    Some composite aircraft have do not exceed temperature. There is an indicator built into the spar. If the temperature is exceeded the airframe becomes worthless. Owners avoid summertime Arizona ramp parking.


  197. 197
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:37 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    Tag, as you know battery pack durability under hot weather conditions has been one of my primary concerns down here in Southern Texas. I have not researched the battery chemistry of Nissan Leaf. Everything depends on the chemistry used. New materials for cathodes and anodes are being studied every day to find the right one for a broad range of temperatures. Nissan must be confident enough about their battery technology to deploy the Leaf in Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona, during their roll-out.
    Although the Volt has a better management system, the issue of high temperatures still remains. I do believe that the ability to precondition the cabin during charging periods extends to the use of the A/C system to do likewise for the battery pack. It may very well be that a Volt will be just like all of us humans ( ) down here seeking a mall like atmosphere for our Volts aswell as ourselves. We may end up seeing enclosed heated/cooled parking lots for electric vehicles. By using advanced insulating materials in construction of these parking areas, the cost of heating/cooling them would be less. Or at least covered parking lots with charging point installed nearby.Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    I think folks are saying that the heat won’t hurt performance but will hurt the “life” of the battery. So Leaf may be releasing there due to the battery leasing.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  198. 198
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:41 pm)

    Sorry folks. Got family stuff popped up ~#177, so had to bail for over an hour. I have some catching up to do!
    Tagamet


  199. 199
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:46 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    That is one invitation I will gladly accept, Dan. Like I said earlier, my sons graduation may interfere. I have my fingers crossed. Even my wife thought it would be a nice trip up to Austin. The great part of it is she will get to see the Volt too. She mentioned seeing a Nissan Leaf advertisement and began asking me all sorts of questions about it and how the Volt is different. Maybe she is listening to my gibberish (her term for it) about the Volt!Only one more question to what I have already asked – What would you like me to bring to the BBQ party?Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    Bring friends, and, a half gallon of Ice Cream. I’ll bet it’ll get warm again.
    Look up my number in the white pages under 12701 Europa, and, give a call and leave a message.


  200. 200
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:48 pm)

    Michael: Zachary Taylor: Tagamet:
    If it’s not to personal, what’s it like? I’m really curious. Be cool, Tagamet

    (emphasis mine) Yes, it do.

    Z.T. That’s what I was thinking when Tag asked the question. But then, considering the topic of the day, and the self-disclosed people of faith here, I decided for some it “Be Cool” for others it “Be Hot.” All depends where the deceased head. ;-)

    And frankly, I did some debating on which direction a President might be headed! Couldn’t remember my History books well enough to guess by facts, so I figured “cool” was the kinder way to guess. Besides, it fit the, er, *physical* facts (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  201. 201
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:49 pm)

    #194Dan Petit: Hey LRGVProVolt, I have the information for the showing of the Volt in Austin. The dates are May the 14th, Friday, the 15th, Saturday,and the 16th, Sunday. you can get maps and more info at http://www.autoshowaustin.com it is hosted by the Austin Auto Dealers Association.  

    You leaped in front of me Dan. My wife said that my sons graduation wont interfere with our attending your Volt BBQ Party :) That is great news! Plan on us being there to meet you and other Volt fans!

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again in May.


  202. 202
    Red HHR

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Red HHR
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:51 pm)

    Pardon me, I have to go. I just got a text message from my Volt, I got to move her. She is getting HOT!


  203. 203
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:55 pm)

    Michael: That’d be great. Right now there is a ICE powered fiberglass body Trike called the Stallion, by Motortrike. ~$30,000 It has a 2.3l Ford ICE in it. My Goldwing weighs more than 750lbs. (The 35 mph comment was a reference to Tag’s comment at #176. It’s an old age thing (g).)

    HEY! For the record I never did use the word “old”! But to be honest, (blush), I had to scroll back to double check, because I couldn’t remember that long ago (Groan).
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  204. 204
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:56 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    You leaped in front of me Dan. My wife said that my sons graduation wont interfere with our attending your Volt BBQ Party That is great news! Plan on us being there to meet you and other Volt fans!Happy trails to you ’til we meet again in May.  

    LRGVProVolt:
    You leaped in front of me Dan. My wife said that my sons graduation wont interfere with our attending your Volt BBQ Party That is great news! Plan on us being there to meet you and other Volt fans!Happy trails to you ’til we meet again in May.  

    I’ll finalize the details the month before that weekend, but, I’m going to take the whole weekend off. Will get with the Austin EV folks too (as I haven’t yet, unless they are following these posts, they should consider themselves invited as well).
    This is going to be one very exciting weekend for us all!! Anyone else here interested in coming to Austin for that weekend?? I’d love to show everyone around and meet more of you in person.


  205. 205
    Red HHR

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Red HHR
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (9:57 pm)

    Dan Petit: Bring friends, and, a half gallon of Ice Cream. I’ll bet it’ll get warm again.
    Look up my number in the white pages under 12701 Europa, and, give a call and leave a message.

    Very generous of you Dan, wont be able to make it myself. But have a GREAT time!

    Cheers


  206. 206
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:00 pm)

    #199 Dan Petit:
    Bring friends, and, a half gallon of Ice Cream. I’ll bet it’ll get warm again.
    Look up my number in the white pages under 12701 Europa, and, give a call and leave a message.  

    Great. Will do!!! But how about a full gallon or better – to share? While there I hope to meet the Austin EV Group – they will most likely have there own tail gate in the parking lot. This is turning into one great new year. One son graduating, new job, a couple of vacations, makes one wonder what else will happen this year. So far … :) :) :)

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  207. 207
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:02 pm)

    Dan Petit: I’ve got to stop talking off- topic before I get into trouble with the topic moderator (g./wink).

    (looks around, wondering who is being referred to…)
    Anon


  208. 208
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:06 pm)

    204 Dan Petit: Will get with the Austin EV folks too

    Leaf frog again…lol! We most be telepathic!

    As Tag would say, Be Well!
    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  209. 209
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:06 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: #67 Dan Petit: The Volt will be coming to Austin in May at the Austin Convention Center.

    Thats great news, Dan. Thanks for the info! I only hope my sons graduation isn’t at the same time. I’d love to be able to come up to the convention, and see/touch the Volt. :)

    Oh Man, I gotta question some of your *priorities*!(g) A lot like the old joke where the robber shouts, “Your money or your wife!” (lol)
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  210. 210
    prowler

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:08 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    Your word is good. Only, the battery pack conditioned temperature, even when it is below freezing outside, will be around 72 degrees. This temperature is the battery packs ideal temperature and it will give maximum performance.When the Volt is out in cold weather for extended periods, the ICE will start and condition the battery pack for about three minutes. If the vehicle is used every day, the battery pack will be near its ideal temperature because of its insulation. In this situation, the reserve (30%) power in the pack will be able to provide the needed heat to get the pack back up to its ideal temp.The only real problem is extended periods of high or low temperature where the pack can not be plugged in to use the grid to maintain conditioning. For owners like me in the southern states, a little planning to insure that the Volt is plugged in while being parked should adequately solve this problem. As a long time follower of ICE conversion to EV, I have read stories of using a Mall store’s power to plug in while shopping their store. I will give those businesses my dollars if they reciprocate by letting me charge up while there. There are numerous methods of insuring the battery pack will remain cool under hot weather. A little advanced planning is all that is necessary. In no time at all, you can determine where to plug in during those times away from the super protective home charging point. Cities like Seattle and Bolder Colorado are examples where you will find all sorts of charging locations cropping up in support of the EV wave. Utilities will gladly welcome the newly created business that this technology brings us. Having read the many comments on this website, I no longer see this problem as one that can not and will not be overcome.Like many farmers have incorporated sun screening for creation of outdoor green tents, where the crops are grown outside instead of a green house, and protected from the damaging effects of hot sunlight that weakens the plants making them vulnerable to pests, the sunscreen is an easy solution to protecting the EV from hot climates. It deflects the infrared radiation keeping the Volt cooler while allowing maximum ventilation from air currents. Here in the Valley many homes are built with no garage and a sunscreen is a perfect solution to moderate the hot climate. On days when it gets extremely hot (above 100 degrees), the plug must be in the outlet to allow A/C to keep the pack cool.The Volt is looking better every day! I do, however, look forward to more information about how the Volt coupes with hot climates.Happy trails to you ’til we meet again  

    Don’t know if that whole long answer was a response to my comment, but I’m only looking at one situation: driving the car after being parked in the cold all day not plugged in.

    I’m not sure what you’re saying, but without active heating (either from plug-in, battery or ICE) insulation will not be enough to keep the batteries at 72 degrees all day long. I believe the batteries will be cold, and as a result: reduced AER and reduced performance when on battery, and likely reduced or no regen. The model that I’m arriving at (based on a variety of data inputs) is:

    - after the car boots, the ICE will come on
    - there’s no reason you can’t drive away immediately since the ICE/generator powers the motor without recharging the battery.
    - The heat from the ICE will condition the battery while you drive to the MINIMUM TEMPERATURE required for the batteries to take over so that the ICE can shut off
    - regen will be off until the batteries take over
    - AER (from the morning’s charge at home) will be reduced for the return trip only

    This really isn’t very different than how an ICE car performs when it is cold and takes a few minutes to reach its operating temperature during which time the MPG and performance both suffer.


  211. 211
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:08 pm)

    Red HHR: OK, I want to know the 3D’s

    Depth of snow…
    Density of snow…
    Distance of snow pushed…

    And the forth “D”! Da Price!
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  212. 212
    Zachary Taylor

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:14 pm)

    Tagamet:
    And frankly, I did some debating on which direction a President might be headed! Couldn’t remember my History books well enough to guess by facts, so I figured “cool” was the kinder way to guess. Besides, it fit the, er,*physical* facts (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    It’s really very simple; those on the “same side of the aisle” tended to lift their man up; those on the other side, well … let’s just say that their hopes lay in another direction.

    I am tempted to point out that at another point in history, “President” was still considered an honorable profession; but I understand that this stretches modern credulity. (guffaw)


  213. 213
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:18 pm)

    #197 Tagamet: I think folks are saying that the heat won’t hurt performance but will hurt the “life” of the battery.

    Hey Tag! So I understand. However, it will also effect performance as well as battery life. Any degradation of the batteries ability to charge will show up long before the end of battery life. What happens to the chemistry because of the excessive heat, reduces the total amount of charge the battery will take on each recharge cycle. Here in the South, owners will need to pay more attention to this factor. A little careful planning to insure that the parked Volt can be plugged in to use grid power to run the A/C!

    Be Well! and Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  214. 214
    Michael

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Michael
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:19 pm)

    Dan Petit: Anyone else close enough to Austin to consider coming to the Austin Convention Center in May to see the Volt?I’ll be hosting a Volt/EV BBQ party under the awning of my Winnebago, and, it would be neat to get to meet GM Volt friends.  

    So, are you really going to park your Winnebago across the street for the whole weekend? (Oops you said afternoon/evening, which day?) As it turns out, I’ll be a whole lot closer than my normal northern New Mexico that week end. I’ll be in Dallas for a wedding Saturday afternoon, May 15. What a coincidence! Only a little over three hours away. :-) Hmmm . . .


  215. 215
    Red HHR

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Red HHR
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:21 pm)

    Tagamet: And the forth “D”! Da Price!

    Wow, you have entered the fourth dimension.
    Whats it like?

    Cheers


  216. 216
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:22 pm)

    #210 prowler,

    I think that the battery was said to have a preferential temperature range of between 72 to 77 degrees.

    I did a study on the heat loss of a very very poorly insulated water heater (in the Winnebago described above), as a function of how many watt hours of solar power stored would be needed to bring 6 gallons of water up from 70 degrees to 88 degrees. (Heal loss overnight for this very very poorly insulated water heater). It was only around 1.5 kilowatts.

    I doubt the Volt battery will get cold that fast, and, even if there was a tendency for that, the battery ought to have the software subroutined to deal with that very well for just 8 to 12 hours, based on my research (to determine how many watts of solar panels I needed to place on the roof of the Winnebago). (Only 150 watts of panels was needed) (within the total wattages of other small kitchen electrical tasks from 3,000 watts of AGM’s (50% of 6kw). (And, greatly preserving the residual life expectancies for all the various12 volt motors (6) in it as well with peak available 13.8 volts at all times, are the excellent two-fold pay-backs for these panels and those extra batteries.)


  217. 217
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:23 pm)

    Dan Petit: Anyone else close enough to Austin to consider coming to the Austin Convention Center in May to see the Volt?I’ll be hosting a Volt/EV BBQ party under the awning of my Winnebago, and, it would be neat to get to meet GM Volt friends.  

    Shoot! That’s a bit of a hike from here. I don’t suppose you could have a Volt delivered here for a quick hug… Naw, thought not (sigh).
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  218. 218
    Tex-arl

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tex-arl
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:31 pm)

    Ladies and Gentlemen—If you wonder why GM is a little closemouthed and seems to be testing, testing, testing, testing you should have watched the Toyota hearings and I think you can understand.

    Fortunately, as old as I am, I can still watch C-Span and then come here and type a little note .

    All–be patient. The time will come.


  219. 219
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:36 pm)

    Dan Petit: This is going to be one very exciting weekend for us all!! Anyone else here interested in coming to Austin for that weekend?? I’d love to show everyone around and meet more of you in person.

    You’re killin me, Dan. You’re killin me. And *I’m* a home-body!
    Maybe you could set up a short web feed to the site, if Lyle was OK with it? What were the dates again?
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  220. 220
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:41 pm)

    Michael:
    So, are you really going to park your Winnebago across the street for the whole weekend?As it turns out, I’ll be a whole lot closer than my normal northern New Mexico that week end.I’ll be in Dallas for a wedding Saturday afternoon, May 15.What a coincidence!Only a little over three hours away. Hmmm . . .  

    I might try out one of those wireless modems from AT&T for that weekend, and, stay in contact with this site. I wonder if Mr. Whitacre could get me a good deal on one of those? Or, get me permission to rent one for the weekend? That would be fun, so that all visitors could stay logged on, and, we could all share in “real time” what is going on at the Austin Auto Dealers Association (Volt) convention.

    The generator in the Winnebago is pure clean pure sine power, and, can run a my scanner, computer, etc. And, I could send lots of pictures of the convention, the GM pros, the party, etc.


  221. 221
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:45 pm)

    Tagamet:
    You’re killin me, Dan. You’re killin me. And *I’m* a home-body!
    Maybe you could set up a short web feed to the site, if Lyle was OK with it? What were the dates again?
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Tag,
    May 14th, Friday, the 15th, Saturday, and the 16th, Sunday.

    I think it would be so much fun to just type and feed pictures all weekend if that wouldn’t be too much or inappropriate somehow. I’d likely need assistance from the software geniuses at Austin EV. (They can decrypt automotive CAN software protocols to calibrate a speed sensor for an EV, an 08 Mazda, for instance! A very highly talented group of engineers, I can tell you that.)


  222. 222
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:47 pm)

    Zachary Taylor: I am tempted to point out that at another point in history, “President” was still considered an honorable profession; but I understand that this stretches modern credulity. (guffaw)

    Yes, I know that well about the honorable office of President. As an old-fashioned sort, I still respect the *Office* – and whoever holds it, is still “my President”.
    Maybe you need a new “handle”, we are WAY OT! (LOL). Somehow Stonewall didn’t have the same effect.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  223. 223
    prowler

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:49 pm)

    Dan Petit: #210prowler, I think that the battery was said to have a preferential temperature range of between 72 to 77 degrees.I did a study on the heat loss of a very very poorly insulated water heater (in the Winnebago described above), as a function of how many watt hours of solar power stored would be needed to bring 6 gallons of water up from 70 degrees to 88 degrees. (Heal loss overnight for this very very poorly insulated water heater).It was only around 1.5 kilowatts.
    I doubt the Volt battery will get cold that fast, and, even if there was a tendency for that, the battery ought to have the software subroutined to deal with that very well for just 8 to 12 hours, based on my research (to determine how many watts of solar panels I needed to place on the roof of the Winnebago). (Only 150 watts of panels was needed) (within the total wattages of other small kitchen electrical tasks from 3,000 watts of AGM’s(50% of 6kw).(And, greatly preserving the residual life expectancies for all the various12 volt motors (6) in it as well with peak available 13.8 volts at all times, are the excellent two-fold pay-backs for these panels and those extra batteries.)  

    We’re in agreement on most of what you say (one minor item, at the end). Solar could be a good way to keep the batteries warm on a cold day, but for now, I’m talking today (or at least initial release). If the car uses the battery charge to keep the batteries conditioned when not plugged in, it will use power and reduce the AER. If the engine runs, it reduces the MPG. Everyone seems to agree that the engine wouldn’t run when unattended. I think we’re saying the same thing here.

    The only thing I’m not convinced of is how effective the insulation will be. The insulation needs to do 2 things – keep the batteries warm in cold weather and, more importantly, keep them cool in hot weather. The more insulation that is used to address cold weather, the WORSE the situation is for hot weather. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.


  224. 224
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:51 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: Here in the South, owners will need to pay more attention to this factor. A little careful planning to insure that the parked Volt can be plugged in to use grid power to run the A/C!

    Around here, we can just roll the windows down. My Jeep’s AC hasn’t worked for years. But if it were to be 100 degrees, I can imagine the difficulty!
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  225. 225
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:51 pm)

    #210 prowler: Don’t know if that whole long answer was a response to my comment, but I’m only looking at one situation: driving the car after being parked in the cold all day not plugged in.

    Sorry that you thought my comment was to long. I’m just adding to the conversation and answering or responding to a few other comments.
    My post did answer your question if you go back you will find;
    ————————————————————————————————————————–
    “When the Volt is out in cold weather for extended periods, the ICE will start and condition the battery pack for about three minutes. ”
    ————————————————————————————————————————–
    However, GM has previously answered your question and you can find it on this website also. After driving fromc home to work in the morning and parking your car at work, the insulation protecting the battery pack will adequately keep the battery warm enough that the remaining state of charge below 30% SOC will be able to provide what additional heating is needed. This is one reason GM only uses the middle 50% SOC. If you look at the temperatue specifications of the battery pack, you will notice that the workable temperature range goes down below the idea temp of 72 degrees. Even at temperatures below the ideal temp, the battery pack can be used to drive the car. I don’t know what the heat up time is by resistive heating but current circulating in the battery heat the battery faster than the heat circulated from the ICE. That time is no doubt much shorter than the three (3) MINUTES the ICE takes. It is only at extremely low temperature that the battery louses power because the kinetic energy of the battery chemistry is necessary to release electrons from the atomic structure of the battery materials. With certain material compositions, the cold weather inhibits the chemical reaction. There are batteries out their like Altairnano’s that work at extreme temperatures: in the case of Altairnano, GM found may have found their batteries depth of charge was inadequate. Their other technologies being developed currently that will overcome this problem in the near future. For now GM has engineered a battery management system into the Volt that will adequately answer this problem with extreme temperatures. This one of the most important differences that the Volt answers: its ICE aids in maintaining battery pack operating temperature near optimum. Neither the Mini-E or the Leaf battery has this insurance design.
    Happy trails to yo ’til we meet again.


  226. 226
    Blind Guy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Blind Guy
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:54 pm)

    #188 Dave K Very interested to hear feedback from the first 50,000 Leaf owners. How did Nissan get around the dealer network? Is it legal take deposits online? We are
    already behind 50,000 buyers.  
    (Quote)

    Whichever ev. we decide on is going to get state of the art window tint for best heat resistance. We have Hooper Optik tint on our car now and it works very well with less darkness. We have been on the list for several months now and get regular updates via e-mail. When they brought the car to Tucson in Dec. the Reps said they will probably bring a test drive Leaf in the Spring. No details have been sent out concerning how the deposit will be taken. I forget what no. my wife said we were when we signed up but we are in the initial roll out area. It sounds like the local NIssan dealer will take care of all set up criteria with home charging. The key for us will be if her work place installs charging stations.


  227. 227
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:57 pm)

    Michael: I’ll be in Dallas for a wedding Saturday afternoon, May 15. What a coincidence! Only a little over three hours away. :-) Hmmm . . .

    LOL, sitting here thinking about how the word “rabid” is getting closer and closer to being an accurate descriptor of our group!
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  228. 228
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:00 pm)

    #209 Tagamet:
    Oh Man, I gotta question some of your *priorities*!(g)A lot like the old joke where the robber shouts, “Your money or your wife!” (lol)
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    No need to question my priorities, Tag. My son comes first in this instance. Fortunately, there is no conflict over the timing of the events or my wife’s decision on his graduation. This year, I find myself fortunate to have no financial conflct in traveling to go to his graduation. A few years back, I wasn’t so fortunate. Financial difficulties prevented me from attending another sons graduation. So this year is really turning out to be super.
    Lol! That robber must have been surprised with his victims choice. ;)

    Be Well! Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  229. 229
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:01 pm)

    prowler at #223,
    Yes, we’re really on the same page with everything.
    I suspect that the very good battery efficiency itself is really not going to produce that much heat, I’d bet it relates to just the presence of heat as affecting the battery if the Volt has to sit unplugged for a time longer than a few days in very high heat gradually building up from outside, perhaps, as you suggest. (Even if the battery isn’t going to have to do any work.)

    Really good point you made there!


  230. 230
    Zachary Taylor

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:03 pm)

    Tagamet:
    Yes, I know that well about the honorable office of President. As an old-fashioned sort, I still respect the *Office* – and whoever holds it, is still “my President”.
    Maybe you need a new “handle”, we are WAY OT! (LOL). Somehow Stonewall didn’t have the same effect.
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Owing to technical circumstances too complicated to explain, it is now much more difficult for A.J. to post (and so, I’m sitting in for him for a little time). Hopefully we’ll have Old Hickory back in his place, soon.

    I think it’s the picture I picked for Zachary; I cannot help but think of a pompous curmudgeon (dang, If I don’t get Stonewall back soon I won’t be able to write a 21st century sentence again).

    We’re just lucky that most dead presidents are in agreement where electric vehicles are concerned; with the notable exception of Mr. Lincoln: who is heavily involved over at Ford. ;-)

    ZT


  231. 231
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:08 pm)

    #214 Michael:
    So, are you really going to park your Winnebago across the street for the whole weekend? (Oops you said afternoon/evening, which day?)As it turns out, I’ll be a whole lot closer than my normal northern New Mexico that week end.I’ll be in Dallas for a wedding Saturday afternoon, May 15.What a coincidence!Only a little over three hours away. Hmmm . . .  

    Well, Mike, we hope that the three hours to Austin is doable. Sounds like you have a potential conflict. ;) We look forward to meeting you in Austin.
    <Happy trails to you 'til we meet again.


  232. 232
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:09 pm)

    Have to call it a day. Need to wake up early tomorrow. ‘Night all.


  233. 233
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:11 pm)

    Hey Micheal,

    There is plenty of time to plan on it if it looks like a “go” for you.


  234. 234
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:12 pm)

    #217 Tagamet:
    Shoot! That’s a bit of a hike from here. I don’t suppose you could have a Volt delivered here for a quick hug… Naw, thought not (sigh).
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Well dang, Tag. Get started now! You’ll make it to Austin well in advance of May. :)

    Be Well! Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  235. 235
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:14 pm)

    #219 Tagamet:
    You’re killin me, Dan. You’re killin me. And *I’m* a home-body!
    Maybe you could set up a short web feed to the site, if Lyle was OK with it? What were the dates again?
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    And Lyle might be there!!!!
    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  236. 236
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:15 pm)

    Dan Petit:
    I might try out one of those wireless modems from AT&T for that weekend, and, stay in contact with this site.I wonder if Mr. Whitacre could get me a good deal on one of those? Or, get me permission to rent one for the weekend?That would be fun, so that all visitors could stay logged on, and, we could all share in “real time” what is going on at the Austin Auto Dealers Association (Volt) convention. The generator in the Winnebago is pure clean pure sine power, and, can run a my scanner, computer, etc. And, I could send lots of pictures of the convention, the GM pros, the party, etc.  

    For a lot of reasons I think that your request may fall on more fertile ground than way back at VoltNation I. I was surprised that GM didn’t webcast that (though Lyle had a video team) – until I saw the crowd that showed up. It wasn’t a large area, but it WAS standing room only about 5 or 6 deep at the back. I’d arrived very early and was in the second row right behind the team. From the looks on the faces of the engineering team – who all presented a little individually – they were just shocked at the turnout and enthusiasm. Getting to mingle with and ask questions of the team after the presentations was a real thrill, and it was clear that they were really enjoying it too! I snapped a lot of photos that are now well buried in about a terabyte of storage here. I ought to dig some out.
    Anyway, it sounds like the makins of a great time in Austin!
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  237. 237
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:19 pm)

    #224 Tagamet:
    Around here, we can just roll the windows down. My Jeep’s AC hasn’t worked for years. But if it were to be 100 degrees, I can imagine the difficulty!
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Down here, you roll the window down to take a bath! :)

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  238. 238
    ClarksonCote

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ClarksonCote
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:27 pm)

    EVO:
    So, is a daily range from 20 to 103 for one month, with one hour at each extreme, with a month of 40 to 83 daily range on either side worse than three months nonstop at 90 (the southeast US)?It’s not so simple, is it? Or is it?  

    I guess my only point is that, there will reach some temperature, where if the battery is at that temperature for any amount of time, it will physically degrade. Those kinds of extreme heat instances will occur in Arizona; not in Toronto. In those scenarios, the Volt will have to work harder to keep the batteries cool than it would have to in Toronto.

    When it comes to keeping them warm, luckily we always have some inefficiencies resulting in waste heat that we can tap to help out.

    I think we’re in agreement that there’s many factors to consider for battery longevity, and the proper temperature statistics and their correlation to battery life is one of them.


  239. 239
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:27 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    And Lyle might be there!!!!
    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    That would really be great if Lyle could get to Austin too.
    Austin is a really creatively-fun city. I got hooked in no time, and, it immediately became
    home for me. It’s really as creatively exciting a place as you’ll ever find.

    Anyway, I’ll come back to this thread tomorrow morning to look for any more comments of interest in coming to Austin. But for now, I’ve *got* to go to sleep.

    Good Night all.


  240. 240
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:27 pm)

    Dan Petit: Have to call it a day.Need to wake up early tomorrow. ‘Night all.  

    Same here, Dan. First day back to work for me. ..lol.
    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  241. 241
    ClarksonCote

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ClarksonCote
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:29 pm)

    Tagamet:
    That’s exactly what we’re shooting for!
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Definitely Tag! :)

    I’m reminded of a quote from an old movie (wish I could remember which, Hunt for Red October?): “Russian Parts, American Parts… All made in Taiwan!”

    Kind of like, “EV, BEV, PHEV, EREV etc… All reduce reliance on foreign oil!” (Or insert any other benefit that the wide range of EV’s contribute to ;) )


  242. 242
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:33 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    No need to question my priorities, Tag. My son comes first in this instance. Fortunately, there is no conflict over the timing of the events or my wife’s decision on his graduation. This year, I find myself fortunate to have no financial conflct in traveling to go to his graduation. A few years back, I wasn’t so fortunate. Financial difficulties prevented me from attending another sons graduation. So this year is really turning out to be super.
    Lol! That robber must have been surprised with his victims choice.
    Be Well! Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    Actually, I was joshing that you would even consider going to the GRADUATION, instead of hugging a Volt! (g). I never actually considered the two in the same ballpark! Of *course* you would go see your son. It must have been heartbreaking to miss the first graduation. Joy and I were Blessed to miss exactly 3 of ALL the things our girls were in. Every game, performance, exhibit, whatever we got to both be there. A really small town setting makes that possible. It also helped that I was the designated chauffeur for any “away” activity (lol). I think that some of us empty nesters have taken the Volt on as another of our wards.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  243. 243
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:35 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: Dan Petit: Have to call it a day.Need to wake up early tomorrow. ‘Night all.

    Same here, Dan. First day back to work for me. ..lol.
    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.

    Night to you both!
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  244. 244
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:38 pm)

    ClarksonCote:
    Definitely Tag!
    I’m reminded of a quote from an old movie (wish I could remember which, Hunt for Red October?): “Russian Parts, American Parts… All made in Taiwan!”Kind of like, “EV, BEV, PHEV, EREV etc… All reduce reliance on foreign oil!”(Or insert any other benefit that the wide range of EV’s contribute to )  

    LOL, Amen! (and I do think that that quote was from that movie).
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  245. 245
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:41 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: Down here, you roll the window down to take a bath! :)

    WAY too much information! (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  246. 246
    prowler

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    prowler
     Says

     

    Feb 23rd, 2010 (11:45 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    Sorry that you thought my comment was to long. I’m just adding to the conversation and answering or responding to a few other comments.
    My post did answer your question if you go back you will find;
    ————————————————————————————————————————–
    “When the Volt is out in cold weather for extended periods, the ICE will start and condition the battery pack for about three minutes. ”
    ————————————————————————————————————————–
    However, GM has previously answered your question and you can find it on this website also. After driving fromc home to work in the morning and parking your car at work, the insulation protecting the battery pack will adequately keep the battery warm enough that the remaining state of charge below 30% SOC will be able to provide what additional heating is needed. This is one reason GM only uses the middle 50% SOC. If you look at the temperatue specifications of the battery pack, you will notice that the workable temperature range goes down below the idea temp of 72 degrees. Even at temperatures below the ideal temp, the battery pack can be used to drive the car. I don’t know what the heat up time is by resistive heating but current circulating in the battery heat the battery faster than the heat circulated from the ICE. That time is no doubt much shorter than the three (3) MINUTES the ICE takes. It is only at extremely low temperature that the battery louses power because the kinetic energy of the battery chemistry is necessary to release electrons from the atomic structure of the battery materials. With certain material compositions, the cold weather inhibits the chemical reaction. There are batteries out their like Altairnano’s that work at extreme temperatures: in the case of Altairnano, GM found may have found their batteries depth of charge was inadequate. Their other technologies being developed currently that will overcome this problem in the near future. For now GM has engineered a battery management system into the Volt that will adequately answer this problem with extreme temperatures. This one of the most important differences that the Volt answers: its ICE aids in maintaining battery pack operating temperature near optimum. Neither the Mini-E or the Leaf battery has this insurance design.
    Happy trails to yo ’til we meet again.  

    No, I didn’t think your comment was too long, it just seemed too long as a response to my simple statement. You clarified that now.

    When you say,
    “After driving from home to work in the morning and parking your car at work, the insulation protecting the battery pack will adequately keep the battery warm enough that the remaining state of charge below 30% SOC will be able to provide what additional heating is needed.”
    This is the first time that I’ve heard anybody state that the car will draw below 30% SOC. Regardless, even if it’s parked with 70% SOC, if it uses its stored energy to heat the batteries, that obviously reduces the AER.
    When you say,
    “When the Volt is out in cold weather for extended periods, the ICE will start and condition the battery pack for about three minutes.”
    That’s the statement that prompted my questions. If the car needs 3 minutes of conditioning by the ICE after you start it, the battery heating while parked is obviously minimal since it needs additional conditioning.
    My hypothesis is: 1) the regen will not be in effect during these 3 miles, and 2) battery performance will be reduced until the pack is fully warmed up.
    I am not yet convinced that the insulation will keep the pack warm enough from the morning’s drive, which seems to be validated by 2 things above: you say that the battery will use it’s stored energy to heat itself while parked, this has to reduce AER, and, we all agree that the ICE will run for 3 minutes after its started to “condition the battery” which is a pretty strong statement that it’s fallen below its optimum temperature. None of this is a big deal, I’m just wondering the magnitude (and lower battery performance when cold can be gotten around in software by running in ICE/generator mode, but that will reduce the MPG). Do I have the correct model?


  247. 247
    LRGVProVolt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LRGVProVolt
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (12:26 am)

    Tagamet:
    Actually, I was joshing that you would even consider going to the GRADUATION, instead of hugging a Volt! (g). I never actually considered the two in the same ballpark! Of *course* you would go see your son. It must have been heartbreaking to miss the first graduation. Joy and I were Blessed to miss exactly 3 of ALL the things our girls were in. Every game, performance, exhibit, whatever we got to both be there. A really small town setting makes that possible. It also helped that I was the designated chauffeur for any “away” activity (lol). I think that some of us empty nesters have taken the Volt on as another of our wards.
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Last post today after committing to only one post today!?! Utterly impossible. It must be a compulsion. I’ve lost count. Must be brain washed. D)
    Tag, you got me there. Time flies and moments fleet and before we know it there grown up and making plans for their future. I am hopeful that despite the current state of world affairs that there is a future for them. The Volt is a very bright spot on the blotter. For me family is spread out all over the globe. We haven’t seen each other in years, so my wife and I will really enjoy gong to the graduation. I will get to see my other son who was very disappointed that I couldn’t attend his graduation. He’s giving me another opportunity by going back to school. Finally getting to hug them after so long means so much. This truly will be a memorable year.

    Be Well! and Prosper! Happy trails, Tag. Good night!


  248. 248
    Crookieda

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Crookieda
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (12:31 am)

    ClarksonCote:
    Definitely Tag!
    I’m reminded of a quote from an old movie (wish I could remember which, Hunt for Red October?): “Russian Parts, American Parts… All made in Taiwan!”Kind of like, “EV, BEV, PHEV, EREV etc… All reduce reliance on foreign oil!”(Or insert any other benefit that the wide range of EV’s contribute to )  

    The quote is from armegeddon. They had a cosmonaut with them an engineer who said the line.

    By your command


  249. 249
    Crookieda

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Crookieda
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (12:38 am)

    Tagamet:
    Shoot! That’s a bit of a hike from here. I don’t suppose you could have a Volt delivered here for a quick hug… Naw, thought not (sigh).
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    I’ll hike it with u tag, I could use a good ruck march anyways I’m getting a little too fat for my own good. Besides lighter weight driver = more aer in my volt

    By your command


  250. 250
    ProfessorGordon

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ProfessorGordon
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (12:42 am)

    ClarksonCote:
    Definitely Tag!
    I’m reminded of a quote from an old movie (wish I could remember which, Hunt for Red October?): “Russian Parts, American Parts… All made in Taiwan!”Kind of like, “EV, BEV, PHEV, EREV etc… All reduce reliance on foreign oil!”(Or insert any other benefit that the wide range of EV’s contribute to )  

    Was that Armageddon?


  251. 251
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (1:16 am)

    LRGVProVolt:
    Last post today after committing to only one post today!?! Utterly impossible. It must be a compulsion. I’ve lost count. Must be brain washed.D)
    Tag, you got me there.Time flies and moments fleet and before we know it there grown up and making plans for their future. I am hopeful that despite the current state of world affairs that there is a future for them. The Volt is a very bright spot on the blotter. For me family is spread out all over the globe. We haven’t seen each other in years, so my wife and I will really enjoy gong to the graduation. I will get to see my other son who was very disappointed that I couldn’t attend his graduation. He’s giving me another opportunity by going back to school. Finally getting to hug them after so long means so much. This truly will be a memorable year.Be Well! and Prosper! Happy trails, Tag. Good night!   

    Isn’t it just neat the way things tend to all balance out. Most excellent.
    Be well and good night!
    Tagamet


  252. 252
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (1:21 am)

    ProfessorGordon: Definitely Tag!
    I’m reminded of a quote from an old movie (wish I could remember which, Hunt for Red October?): “Russian Parts, American Parts… All made in Taiwan!”Kind of like, “EV, BEV, PHEV, EREV etc… All reduce reliance on foreign oil!”(Or insert any other benefit that the wide range of EV’s contribute to )

    Was that Armageddon?

    Give that man a cigar!
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120591/quotes
    Let’s pray that the Volt is as “spot on”!
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  253. 253
    ProfessorGordon

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ProfessorGordon
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (1:24 am)

    Hey Tag, or anyone, I just added an avatar but it doesn’t appear on my post for me. Do you see it?


  254. 254
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (1:25 am)

    ProfessorGordon: Another avatar test.  

    I changed mine recently (and probably will again soon). You need to clear your cache, and it doesn’t show up for others until theirs either “turns over” or they clear it manually. Your’s is blank right now, but I’ll clear my cache.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  255. 255
    ProfessorGordon

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ProfessorGordon
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (1:38 am)

    Tagamet:
    I changed mine recently (and probably will again soon). You need to clear your cache, and it doesn’t show up for others until theirs either “turns over” or they clear it manually. Your’s is blank right now, but I’ll clear my cache.
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Thanks Tag, I tried clearing the recent history but for some reason it is still blank but I’ll leave it and see what happens.


  256. 256
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (1:38 am)

    Crookieda:
    I’ll hike it with u tag, I could use a good ruck march anyways I’m getting a little too fat for my own good. Besides lighter weight driver = more aer in my voltBy your command  

    A *classic* example of “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak!” My LORD, is it weak! (lol). Granted, Austin, Tx on a map looks like it’s all downhill from here (on SO many levels)(g).
    I think I’ll forfeit 5 miles of AER and keep my ice cream (and belly).
    If we can’t be there physically, let’s hope that someone lines up the electrons so that we can have a cyber-presence.
    Thanks for the offer to “buddy” me there!
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  257. 257
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (1:49 am)

    ProfessorGordon:
    Thanks Tag, I tried clearing the recent history but for some reason it is still blank but I’ll leave it and see what happens.  

    I refreshed the page, cleared my cache, and even restarted firefox – no luck. Did you restart Firefox? Maybe you need to clear your CACHE, not your recent history. In firefox, it’s under tools/options/advanced and then the network *Tab*. “Clear” is in the box on the right, about halfway down.
    HTH,
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  258. 258
    DaveP

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DaveP
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (1:51 am)

    You guys are making me feel cold. It’s just rainy around here this week but we were up to 70 degrees last week. :) It doesn’t get quite so hot around here as it does in the Southeast, but I too am more concerned about the heat than the cold. We certainly can (and do) see temperatures in the very low 100′s, but we never see snow around here in silicon valley (well, on the mountains nearby, but that’s not the valley, is it? :) ).
    Still, good article. I appreciate the updates on the testing!


  259. 259
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (1:54 am)

    Almost 2 a.m. and still haven’t read much other than the site tonight, so I’ll close for now.
    Be well all. See you in a few hours (g).
    Tagamet


  260. 260
    Tagamet

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tagamet
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (2:02 am)

    DaveP: You guys are making me feel cold. It’s just rainy around here this week but we were up to 70 degrees last week. :)

    Boy, I know how you feel! Two weeks ago we got into the low 40′s, and now we can’t even get into the 30′s! I guess it’s all relative (g). Still, it’s looking good for temperature issues being modest with the Volt here in PA.
    Be well,
    Tagamet


  261. 261
    Rashiid Amul

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Rashiid Amul
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (6:38 am)

    Plenty of snow here this morning. It look beautiful.


  262. 262
    ClarksonCote

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ClarksonCote
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (8:23 am)

    Crookieda: The quote is from armegeddon. They had a cosmonaut with them an engineer who said the line. By your command  (Quote)

    Ah, that’s right. Thanks! I remember it was a movie from a while ago, and sadly I still feel like Armageddon was recent.


  263. 263
    DaveP

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DaveP
     Says

     

    Feb 24th, 2010 (6:04 pm)

    Tagamet:
    Boy, I know how you feel! Two weeks ago we got into the low 40’s, and now we can’t even get into the 30’s! I guess it’s all relative (g). Still, it’s looking good for temperature issues being modest with the Volt here in PA.
    Be well,
    Tagamet  

    So, not only is the range extender an effective “range anxiety mitigator” but it is also an effective temperature anxiety mitigator as well. :) So for those of us in non-extreme climates, we know that if a freak blizzard blows through our neighborhoods, our Volts will be OK! Of course, if it snowed around here I think everything would just stop for as long as the snow was visible, but the Volt would be OK! :)


  264. 264
    pjkPA

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    pjkPA
     Says

     

    Feb 25th, 2010 (5:32 am)

    Among the many other records the Volt has achieved … testing of this car has to be a record!

    Here in PA we have fairly cold winters .. but we also have relatively fewer miles to commute.


  265. 265
    Dan Petit

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan Petit
     Says

     

    Feb 28th, 2010 (1:01 pm)

    Tagamet: Almost 2 a.m. and still haven’t read much other than the site tonight, so I’ll close for now.
    Be well all. See you in a few hours (g).
    Tagamet  

    Hey Tag,
    Did you get a virus in your computer? It’s Sunday the 28th, at Noontime local. Haven’t seen you on today’s topic yet. Can you post something? I hope my comment about boredom wasn’t a negative re-enforcer.
    (Just that we need to keep ourselves challenged with additional subject matter however we can, since we have already talked about most everything Volt has to offer, and, my concern was that the thread could get somewhat stale.).


  266. 266
    Leon

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Leon
     Says

     

    Mar 8th, 2010 (8:23 pm)

    Came across this site while I am literally “browsing”. It’s good to know that there are sites like this for someone like me. very informative.