Most of us want electric cars for all the benefits of getting away from petroleum. A burgeoning field likely to play a more prominent role in the future, however, is vehicle-to-grid or V2G.
The idea is to allow one’s plugged in electric car act as a repository for the electric grid, letting utilities borrow energy stored in a car’s battery in exchange for a fee.
Earlier this week a group of experts convened to discuss and plan for this at the American Association for Advancement of Science meeting in San Diego.
Spotlighted by MSNBC was a company called PJM Interconnections that coordinates the power grid for 13 states including Washington DC. Their job is to balance the load between supply and demand, a fragile interplay that could benefit from thousands of connected buffers supplied by electric car batteries.
PJM needs about 1% of the total grid peak demand available in the form of a buffer, which amounts to 1000 megawatts. ”We have 1,000 megawatts moving up and down,” said Ken Huber, a principle at the company.
Presently PJM pays battery providers $25 to $35 per megawatt hour to keep that buffer available. Once enough electric cars become connected to the grid, they could take over that role and become a revenue generator for owners. When the grid needs it, it could take a little out of the cars, and then put it back later when demands declines.
Electric cars have “a very, very high value to the grid,” Huber told MSNBC.
So how much are those cars worth?
A small study out of the University of Delaware using converted electric Scions (E-Boxes) having 17 kwh batteries plugged in an average of 21.5 hours per day yielded around $300 per month per driver.
The cost of these conversions and their very low volume don’t play a useful role on the grid today, but if the Obama pledge of 1 million plug-in cars by 2015 comes true, V2G ould easily become a very important value proposition for would be buyers.
Our friend Tony Posawatz, Volt vehicle line director, explained to MSNBC that GM is planning for this functionality in the next generation of Chevy Volts.
“We’re going to make this asset (the battery) available to plug in all the time to collect the energy created by this green technology,” Posawatz told MSNBC.
Posawatz is also banking on the fact that Volt batteries will be used as grid buffers after they have served their 10 year vehicular lifetime.
“We believe the battery will have a life outside the car,” he said.
The current high expenses of lithium-ion batteries to consumers still obviate their financial benefit, but in time as costs go down a threshold will be crossed.
“How can we quickly move down the cost curve and get the technological advances going?” said Posawatz. ”Certainly the automotive industry does not move as quickly as the telecommunications industry. … Can we make that kind of progress on a shorter time scale?”
Source (msnbc)
+5
Feb 21st, 2010 (7:39 am)Good morning everyone!
+5
Feb 21st, 2010 (7:46 am)I would certainly love for this to be in my car. I would get paid for basically doing nothing! (Just keeping my car plugged in and letting it do its thing)
I have one concern though. I know that when transfering energy from one to another source, there is some loss. How much energy loss is there from grid to vehicle and then back to grid?
Oh, and good morning. Only ten months until the Volt arrives!
I have been talking to some local dealerships, and we really know lots more about this car than them. The dealerships seem to think its just a plain family car with good gasoline mileage. They look at me like I am a bit looney to be so interested in getting on the wait list and place a deposit this early before the car arrives. The salesmen don’t know yet of the amazing feature of the Volt (its design itself). I hope that this would work to my advantage so I can get the Volt at MSRP.
+5
Feb 21st, 2010 (7:58 am)Ok. I was really bummed out about the lack of E85 support and it completely made me feel that Volt was not going to be the car for me.
After a couple of days, I have reconsidered.
For today’s topic, V2G, I think that the economies will not be there until batteries are way cheaper than today. I can see, however, that this electric peer-to-peer type sharing could benefit overall costs at the garage.
A side benefit is a more robust grid so that downed wires, not to mention intentional attacks, could be marginalized. Basically, we are talking about a more distributed system which could include (our other wishlist item) solar panels on the roof!
We will eventually get to the point where we won’t need fossil energy. How far that is down the road is a huge point of speculation.
-3
Feb 21st, 2010 (8:05 am)Why would anyone give a negative for saying “good morning” is beyond me!
Good morning, Nasaman!
+9
Feb 21st, 2010 (8:08 am)As a long-term Floridian I’m also hopeful GM will make available an optional emergency/camping 120V AC power output in later generation Volts. Thousands of people are confronted with extended power outages during & following hurricanes and other natural disasters. During the hurricane season of 2004, I used a 2,500 watt 12V to 120V AC inverter to power a 24 cu ft refrigerator from my car’s battery; the only problem was that I had to run the refrigerator on a short ON/long OFF duty cycle, with 10-15 min of fast idling of the car’s engine after each ON cycle to keep its 12V battery charged. But it worked beautifully ….AND was FAR BETTER than chasing all over town for dry ice every day or so!
Feb 21st, 2010 (8:26 am)Good Morning,
I think the article should say “Be paid to own own a electric vehicle” that is you have to have it plugged into the grid to be paid. I was once a paid limo driver, but that is a different story…
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (8:26 am)How’s it work again. the utility pays you 2.5 cents a KW-hr but how much does the car owner pay to recharge>
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (8:29 am)I made the same emergency power setup but I use 2, marine deep cycle batteries and a honda 2000 variable speed generator as backup. Quiet and fuel efficient.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (8:50 am)Hi all,
On a selfish, level I’m looking forward to the option nasaman mentions of using the Volt as a home generator, but the V2G ability has received a lot of good ink from solid scientific sources, including the MIT site. I worry a little about them having the ability to draw down my battery to a point that I’d need CS mode, but it sounds like it’s more a small in/out exchange for each vehicle – so loboc’s post is probably closer to the actual reality of how it’d work. It also sounds like the vehicle would have to be plugged in the majority of the day. Still in an emergency, being able to supply some household appliances (V2H) would be huge. Imagine the heartbreak that could be avoided if the power went out on your block in the 4th quarter of the Super Bowl (lol). Plenty of time to think about the whole process (and have explained further) before it’s actually available. Also nice to have another frequently mentioned use of the battery use during its “afterlife”
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (8:52 am)V2G would be an excellent second “immediate Volt owner benefit”. Saving $150 to $250 a month on gasoline, and, I would guess another $80 or so possibly if V2G might be of “timing usefulness” to a local utility.
How?
It would do no good if you had to work from, say, 1:00 pm in the afternoon, to 9:00 pm at night, where the local utility would be interested in “peak shaving”. However;
If you could change your work schedule to go into work at 6:00 am, (certainly bypassing the moring traffic jams), then get off at 2:00 pm (bypassing the afternood traffic jams) to get home to plug in at 2:30, plug in at the 240 volt rate for two hours, then you might have something for the local utility to become interested in. (Also, possibly, the utility could “for each excessive-peak day” request to program the genset to use some of that gas before it goes stale, for a complete charged up pack for when those five to ten days of peak Summer demand hit the utility. Or, in Austin, 68 days of above 100 degrees last Summer.)
(Another benefit for me is/would be to get home, and out of the dangerous afternoon heat of above 100 degrees, which I do anyway, always before 3;00 pm.)
While getting up at 4:45am doesn’t sound apealling to most people, one of the things I’ve gotten used to doing here in the Summer Purgatory heat of the Austin “heat island”, is to get up that early, and, have shop techs (the highly dedicated and most professional ones, always agree to) start early morning 6:00am seminars, and complete each segment by 8:30 or 9:00 am.
Getting to sleep early at 8:45 really works well for this, because for every one hour of sleep we get **before** midnight, equals the value of **two** hours of sleep after midnight. It has to do with our biorhythms and the sunset times it seems to me. (And, getting older. lol).
But having a total savings value to the Voltec owner of between $230 to $330 per month liquidity to apply against the payments, then, now you are talking about revolutionizing **EVERYTHING**.
NOW you are really talking about a really vast set of energy-efficiency changes!!
One other thing. If you have come home early before the peak heat, and you are cooling down your residence between 2:30 and 4:00 pm, you are also helping to shift the initial cooldown loads out and away from the 4:30pm to 6:00pm peak demand times on the utility and the grid. (And, the condenser unit outside is more efficient when it is five degrees cooler at 2:30 pm than at 5pm).
(Many other synergistic things also occur, which would go into too much more depth here.)
Exciting times for GM and the rest of us as well.
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (8:56 am)I think that the power is simply replaced by them, they are paying you for the privilege of making deposits and withdrawals.
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (8:58 am)Good morning nasaman!
The Volt battery will have just so many charge/discharge cycles. How would this affect the battery useful life?
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (8:59 am)Hi everyone and thanks nasaman, the morning was good on the Eastern side of the Atlantic Ocean at 50° North. The snow is slowly melting after the storm of last night.
OK back to the topic, just to say that V2G and V2H are serious options in the integrated European plan to develop a common strategy to implement quickly EVs here.
More will be known soon on the standards that will be adopted.
Best regards,
JC NPNS
+4
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:01 am)Before the overactive paranoids start crying about big brother and their precious battery, let’s get straight what is meant by V2G.
From the article:
“PJM is currently paying battery providers somewhere around $25 to $35 per megawatt-hour to have that electrical storage available”
This is stated a little confusingly. Per megawatt-hour is “available” NOT delivered. They re talking about paying to have “potential” access to the battery’s energy over time. The article overstates the the Volt’s potential in this regard by 2x unless the V2G implementation opens the entire pack’s 16kwh capacity. They also assume full capacity in the battery at almost all times. This would require 240V charging and expensive V2G equipment installed at home and work. Realistically, the Volt could expect to return about $75-150/month under this scenario unless power potential is also factored in. Still not too shabby.
There should be actual usage fees too (if the battery energy is actually ever needed by the grid). The primary value is in the “potential” access to that energy and more likely access to the power. Basically, like load shedding equipement it will be rarely (if ever) actually be used.
YES NASAMAN! V2HOUSE, V2HOUSE, V2HOUSE!
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:04 am)Hi Dan,
It may be far less dependent on local time/demand, in that I believe it’ll be set up among utilities across large geographic swaths. For example, drawing mid day from PA to help mid-day in Tx. EVENTUALLY, drawing from cool evening here to warm afternoon Calif, etc.
Fun times!
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:05 am)So, people are going to pay a huge chunk of money to drive electrically and then, for $.08/KWH, they’re going to let the electrical utility drain their car whenever the utility wants to? So, if your car helps provide peak power and you decide to go out at 8 for a gallon of milk, you’ll be driving a gasser again? Is something wrong with this picture?
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:06 am)I’ve noticed that anyone who starts the comment stream with, “first” or “number one” gets one or more negatives. I guess the negative voters believe everything has to be technical and on topic. I come here for the technical, the news, and the comradery.
I’m with you Joe, Estero, Tagamet, and Jean-Charles: “Good morning, indeed.”
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:06 am)Tagamet…
I agree, and think that would have to be how it works for it to make sense for the user.
My concerns would be:
#1. Electric company borrowing enough power to draw down my battery, and then me unplugging to go somewhere and being to close to gas mode.
#2. Would the extra cycles put on the battery effect its life/effectivness.
Both are things that would have to be worked out. #1 I would assume have to be done by the electric company only being able to borrow a certain percentage of the battery… if that could be measured at the charge point. #2 May not be a factor in modern batteries?? If not, then why will they degrade over time and only have a projected ~10 vehicular life?
Irish
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:09 am)The fallacy with this: screw the car, if they’re going to pay me enough to cover the cost of the batteries, I’ll put a shed in my back yard full of batteries and collect money that way. I just don’t see the economics of this really adding up.
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:10 am)LOL, a think it’s a side effect of some people posting FIRST! Looks like we are pumping it up already though! LOL Congrats NM, we’ll give you a “greenne!
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:14 am)Wait for it. It’s been studied for quite some time, and the *biggest* hurdle is getting a sufficient number of EV’s on the road. It wouldn’t serve them well if it mean hurting the people they need to contract with.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:21 am)Morning Tag!
I missed your introduction of your new cat. Is that Levi?
Texas has it’s own entire grid. It has to do with the Texas constitution requiring Texas to stay as independent from the rest of America as is possible, (even, per Texas secessionistic extremists as are represented by the current right wing nuts, Texas itself has “borders” from the rest of America, and, they consider the rest of America “a foreign power”. Pretty sick and unAmerican. These same wingnuts whine about “securing the border from Mexico” (Not gonna happen with 25,000 aged Texas National Guardsmen and women who mostly just spy on the rest of us hard working Texans, and are political and real pains in the butt. The ones who come here act like tenth grade high school jocks who want to “take their businees (football) elsewhere”. (Please, do us both that favor, do so, and leave us alone).
(The Texas Constitution is being abused, and is outdated to practicality if you ask me, And, it sets up Texas politics to be really skewed and corruptable against its hard working citizens and property owners, due to excessive concentrations of long term political power grabbing. Texas needs a different governor).
But back to topic, V2G is very clearly extremely compelling and efficiently necessary.
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:21 am)No this is not accurate. Read more.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:27 am)It’s not enough to more offset the capital expenditure of the Volt’s battery, but it would help make EV’s more affordable.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:36 am)What’s wrong is your understanding of the process. Would you sign up to have yourself treated that way? There’s plenty of time for the utilities to do their public education. It feels like GM is running short on time for the VOLTS educational needs to be met!
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:38 am)—Come on Lyle fix the site or give it up and go back to the original .
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:46 am)Good Morning!! (nasaman theme today). Good eye, that’s Levi. I announced him a couple days ago when I changed the gravatar, but people said “HUH”?? – it took a couple days for the folks cache to clear.
Beautiful day here in PA – Sunny and pushing 30 degrees. Only a MONTH until Spring and then of course, comes Independence Day! Unfortunately, I hear that November is never going to come this year (at least it FEELS like that).
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:49 am)Maybe I missed your explanation of what’s wrong, but what’s wrong? It looks ok here.
Be well,
Tagamet
-1
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:54 am)Tag,
I couldn’t agree with you more on that.
The value to utilites is in not having to build more power plants at EXTREME HIGH COST.
An infinitesimally small time occasional disconnect for someone to go get a gallon of milk at the store is not going to matter because of a very large number of “reserves” that are not “spinning reserves”.
If I remember correctly, my EE friend at a Texas utility said once that every killowatt of generation costs something like $2,000 to $3,000 to build. So, now you see that if there are lots of V2G’s plugged in, there is plenty of room for the occasional disconnect, and, if you multiply that 8,000 watts of reserve Volt pack energy to be merely “available” on “standby”, then you have an incredibly powerful advantage for Voltec owners.
Besides, Tony Posawatz would not be talking about all this if there were not very clearly many many very high level business assets involved with your Voltec vehicle merely being plugged in.
The only deeply dissappointing thing for me, is that these secessionist extremist right wingnuts people that do everythng to keep this wonderful State of Texas in the prehistoric past with their power grabbing. These are precisely the same people who “will never get it” regarding anything advantageous to the Texas power grid, or technically-advantageous to Texans.
This governor is anti-technical education. Decent paying jobs mandate technical education.
Tag, you are one hundred percent correct about education. Everyone has to boost technical education in all ways possible.
Texas needs a different governor. He cares about nothing but his own power grabbing.
He has just got to go…..PERIOD.
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:10 am)From a marketing standpoint, the utilities would allow you to specify the minimum vehicle range available after any drawdown — and pay more if you’d allow deeper drawdown. As an engineering problem to be solved, the depth of discharge would be set so as to avoid appreciable shortening of the battery’s life, certainly no lower than the limits GM sets for normal Volt operation. I only regret that the capability won’t be on the first generation Volt that I’ll buy.
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:11 am)That would work too but you would not have the dual utility that a car AND a grid revenue stream would provide. The value is in using your car, which owners have had to invest in anyway, to also provide the grid a service and get paid to boot.
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:13 am)I tried when I saw it at +9
but that’s a difficult threshold to push it past.
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:17 am)With the heartfelt desire to give you a chuckle (but possibly a tear), I’d direct you to the comments following the article cited above and read the 4th or 5th comment (VERY long) from JD – Seattle. It reads like the Unibomber manifesto – *but at least he’s not a TEXAN!* (lol).
Smile,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:18 am)Good point, but there could be a benefit even if you’re at work during peak energy usage hours. I work at a large industrial complex. I’m betting that my employer would love to pay to install the charging stations for a bunch of battery-containing vehicles plugged in on site during the work day. They get the utility savings from V2G load sharing on the worst load days, and we get free charging on all the other days. Could be a win-win if approached right.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:19 am)Most important of all, we must be patient.
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:24 am)In the article, Tony says the built-in ability is still “several years out”, BUT it also that there are already ways for an individual to “convert” their EV’s right now.
It’s a good article, with a GREAT picture of the VOLT! I’d encourage everyone to read the source article.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:24 am)Yelling “First!” feels childish, and does not add anything to the discussion. Saying, “good morning” also does not add anything to the discussion, except civility, which we all need. So, good morning Nasaman (and everyone)!
On V2G – unless you contract with your utility, no one will be pulling anything out of your battery. When the time comes, study it and make a choice.
I don’t see it as significantly impacting Volt sales (postively or negatively) until we get to the stage that utilities are actually offering these types of contracts. For example, I already know what the solar buy-back rate is for my local utility – its posted, and its as sure as anything can really be. I made my decision based upon a number of personal factors. With the Volt, I know when I will need another car (2 1/4 years). IF I’m just making my decision based on economics, I will not factor in the $50 a month (or whatever) I MIGHT earn from V2G until V2G is actually availalbe where I live, and I think that this is how the average consumer will view it. I don’t see V2G coming to my area fast enough to matter significantly to the average person. There will be plenty of time to educate the average person about this later. I think the early adopters will educate themselves.
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:25 am)Now you’ve got another great idea there Baltimore17!!
The economy of not having to build more power plants at something like $2,000 to $3,000 a kilowatt would be the thing that all accounting departments for large businesses could begin to examine. (As a capability for returns on investment of 120/240 volt outlets).
That’s really a great point. That really could go far to help standardize “daytime reserves”, and, ultimately, let all utilities have increasing flexibilities in “buffering” in many more ways, not just from peak shaving or reserves, but, also for real time power conditioning perhaps.
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:34 am)Wish *I’d* have said that! (g) +1
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:37 am)Hi Loboc, I’m glad to see you’re back
I agree with everything you said but not completely with batteries needing to be “way cheaper”. IF there are enough Battery Vehicles available to provide adequate buffer and IF the system is tuned to not overuse the battery (as in shorten its life), I don’t see why the batteries would need to be cheaper? True, cheaper batteries will make it all better but it seems to me this is simply a dual use of an existing resource that would just be sitting there most of the time awaiting its primary use of your next drive.
Perhaps your point is that expensive EVs will not be widespread enough to provide this buffer size until batteries are cheaper. I can agree that that might be the case.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:41 am)As I understand it, the utilities peak energy usage occurs in the early evening hours on a hot day, after the majority of people get home from work and fire up their home air conditioning. I would expect the typical EV battery to be depleted at that time. I think the typical EV driver will charge their car overnight during off-peak hours, then drive to work and back home without any charging during the day. So they will have little if any power available for V2G in the evening during peak hours.
So does this mean that only EV owners who continue to charge their vehicles during the day will be able to participate in V2G? I expect this will be a small percentage of EV owners initially since the charging infrastructure won’t be in place initially.
+3
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:48 am)Come On, people! nasaman is stuck at +9 and there are plenty more people than that have posted already. Granted, we started at a -1, but this is certainly DOABLE! (g). It’s not like it’s hard to FIND the post – it’s #1. I’d hope that our group can do better than the sorry percentage of Americans that actually vote in elections!
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:49 am)I’m with you on this one. Only I would like to see a 240v / 120v split generator.
I suspect that the inverter used for the traction motor could be adapted (by GM) to provide this for a fraction of the cost of an equivalent generator.
There’s a whole bunch of things that may make me wait for Gen II.
If a generator is an option for Gen II that’s a huge deal.
If V2G is an option for Gen II that’s another.
If I sell my minivan that I only drive 6000 miles a year, someone else will like drive it more.
I will have more cash by Gen II – that’s another.
E85 support may be available in Gen II, and since I keep my vehicles for the long term, E85 may actually be available from non-food sources while I still have the vehicle.
Tax rebate should still be available for Gen II
Generally Volt will be an improved product for Gen II
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:00 am)Allowing the utility to use your car in this fashion does several things you won’t like. It may crimp your style if the battery happens to be depleted due to recent grid needs and you want to go somewhere. More importantly, the grid is wearing out your batteries. And that cost is far from trivial. Right now those wonderful monopolistic utilities are promising dough to folks who have zero idea of just exactly what the damage to their batteries will be. And exactly why would car batteries , although a lot more costly in terms of lack of control by the utilities and needed infrastructure, be cheaper than batteries they can buy themselves? The answer must be that the EV owners are losing money on the deal. They are about to be taken advantage of because they simply have no clue as to exactly how much value those utilities are getting by using their car’s batteries. Any time some scheme like this shows up, , which makes zero sense in terms of efficiency and yet seems too good to be true, well, guess what? It almost certainly is too good to be true. We need a careful analysis of exactly what is going on here, not lots of cheerleading.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:07 am)Dan,
That “cost per kilowatt” number is sooo central to the entire national energy policy debate but is the least discussed and least understood. For instance, this past week’s news of loan guarantees for new nuclear plants brought up the old continuous-versus-intermittent(wind/solar/tidal) generation debate. The cost of grid storage (along with a beefed-up transmission capacity) will (should) determine the balance struck.
Working for a large corporation for lo these many years, I instinctively retch at the phrase “leveraging synergies” but it seems that the (PHE)V2G provides precisely that (ooomph) opportunity, especially for the low-hanging fruit of peak-demand generators. On the road to the desired end-state, each Volt sold moves a North Dakota wind-farm further from futility to utility, (new motto – “Get the ‘F’ out” naw, probably not).
-2
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:07 am)[...] http://gm-volt.com/2010/02/21/v2g-one-day-youll-get-paid-to-drive-an-electric-car/Our friend Tony Posawatz, Volt vehicle line director, explained to MSNBC that GM is planning for this functionality in the next generation of Chevy Volts. “We’re going to make this asset (the battery) available to plug in all the time … [...]
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:16 am)Lol, that slogan *could* work, but it’d need a “*see explanation below” note added. Good attention getter though!
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:17 am)Hi nasaman,
I would like to have a V2H outlet too as long as it provides enough power, say, 2kW minimum. The Ford Fusion provides a 120V AC plug, but I believe only 150 watts which is really just a replacement for a cheap cigarette lighter inverter. Nice but not useful for a refrigerator! I have actually managed to start our 22 cu ft fridge on a 500 watt inverter. It usually takes a few tries but once started, it hums along indefinitely at about 100 watts.
You could always use the Volt’s 12V system like you describe but with the advantage of not having to manage the “generator” yourself. When turned on, the Volt will automatically cycle the “gen-gine” to maintain the battery, so the question is, how much power does the Volt’s 12V system provide via its built-n DC-to-DC inverter? I know the Prius has a 1000 watt inverter-supplied 12V system coupled with a tiny 12V battery, hopefully the Volt will provide at least that much. But I agree, a dedicated high power 120V AC power plug, inverted straight from the high voltage battery would be very useful!
Of course everyone on this forum would know this, but I would be amiss not to state, just make sure you don’t set this up where the CO emissions could pose a risk, like in a closed garage!!!
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:30 am)I can do this!
+3
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:31 am)If electric companies are in such great need for ‘battery backup reserves’ then why aren’t they building these now and just leave the American car owner out of the equation?
I’ve been hearing complaints on the news for years that our national power grid is insufficient, and then when someone brings up “build more power plants”, then the NIMBYs come out and whine like 4-year olds, and then it gets dropped.
But I’ve never heard an argument against ‘battery storage facilities’, and since Obama has been pushing for more jobs (and 2 new nuclear plants), why not get started on these today?
Could it be that GM could just sell the “T” batteries directly to local power companies? Leave out the car? Sounds mighty profitable go me, and GM certainly needs the money.
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:33 am)Utilities discussing how important this is potentially to them, and, Mr. Posawatz letting us know how V2G is consistently something important to GM, tells us that this is may be a very beneficial thing for so very many reasons.
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:35 am)Plug in at work when the grid gets smarter?
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:40 am)My impression is that this buffer is needed for all times, not just peak use times. Certainly there’s no question that V2G could be useful to eliminate the need for new dedicated peak use power plants but in moment-by-moment collective power demand there are constant usage micro-spikes that must be anticipated and supported by the grid. V2G would act like an instantaneous giant capacitor to smooth these tiny ripples out without having to use more wasteful means to provide this demand buffer. The draw from the EV battery might typically last only moments at a time and just “sip” power and be quickly replaced.
Just my thoughts but perhaps not-fully-charged batteries could be smartly used only in this way.
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:40 am)Hi Professor Gordon,
Did you use a modified sine wave inverter for the refrigerator or a far more pricey “Pure Sine Wave” inverter to power it? Electric motors need the “Pure Sine Wave”, as do electronics and also those wall-plug recharge adapters/step down transformers which recharge and power electronics and small rechargeable appliances. (Reistance loads are ok with modified).
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:47 am)Seems like folks with a product to manage this solution are driving this.
I would think by the time there are enough EVs out there to make this viable, there will be enough replaced batteries to do this much more efficiently by taking used EV car batteries and using them for this very purpose. By the time there are a few million EVs, there will be a growing number of replaced batteries in the hundreds of thousands and growing every year to serve the purpose.
And it would be much easier to consolidate the used batteries in strategic locations and use them.
Posawatz has discussed this several times. These batteries will all have their Car lives, then perhaps another 3-5 years as GRID BACKUP power, then on to the recyling plant.
And I love it all as it is all American Jobs. This can’t happen fast enough for me.
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:47 am)My 20-mile, round-trip commute will leave about 50% of usable capacity in the battery when I return home around the evening’s peak hours. Plenty of juice for the grid, and plenty of time to fully recharge overnight. So, like, when do the checks from the electric company start appearing in my mailbox?
-2
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:47 am)[...] http://gm-volt.com/2010/02/21/v2g-one-day-youll-get-paid-to-drive-an-electric-car/Our friend Tony Posawatz, Volt vehicle line director, explained to MSNBC that GM is planning for this functionality in the next generation of Chevy Volts. “We’re going to make this asset (the battery) available to plug in all the time … [...]
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:48 am)Hey Corvetteguy,
I think Professor Gordon in #54 has helpful concepts. Utilities want to manage power and power availabilities, not own the hardware, which is less efficient. It’s a division of management “spans of control”, where, you happen to own a V2G Voltec vehicle, and,
“by the way, if you would like a nice extra benefit on your electric bill each month, then, we would like very very modest and very very momentary help from your power supply system which will not degrade it whatsoever”. GM engineering would make certain of that, as it would be under warranty, and, the ten year warranty might apply to that as well.
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:56 am)If that’s true, then it sounds like a great opportunity for a third-party company to build a permanent ‘battery reserve’ facility. Thousands or millions of personal vehicles that may, or may not, be plugged into the grid at the right time and the right place sounds like a logistical nightmare.
+3
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:06 pm)NO, NO, NO!
Solar panel enthusiasts already ran into this. You will be paying RETAIL for incoming watts, and the utility will be paying you WHOLESALE for outgoing watts. You could consume zero net power and still owe the utility a ton of money!
And, you’re paying the utility for the degradation of your batteries (discharge/charge cycles).
Good luck with that.
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:06 pm)That was my question, so, I got a relatively inexpensive 500 watt modified sine-wave inverter as a test, with the minimum capacity I thought I would need for emergency situations. If it worked, I just saved $200. The refrigerator runs fine with no detectable difference in behavior that I can see. Motors do need a large startup surge capacity but the fridge seems to run fine. The inverter also successfully powers other questionable items like CFLs and the desktop computer.
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:10 pm)Hey Jeffhre,
Where there is OnStar, there could be a “smart grid” in a sense, if, also, V2G hardware is present on a Voltec vehicle. This is because the equipment could report, through a secure communications mode, that it is connected and available to feed a measureable value (with wattage, buffering, and, in addition to the actual modest monetary value) of that power.
As ProfessorGordon above mentions that just being connected counts monetarily as an energy asset available to be compensated, even though there may not be any power going back into the grid.
The availability of lots of these could reach an “Effectiveness Quorum” just like Wind Energy in the State of Texas has effectively achieved with the vast numbers of Wind generators now present in Texas.
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:13 pm)It seems like you answered your initial question, by the end of your comment (but that may just my goofy reading). Maybe the utilities are simply trying to tap the EV battery resources as they become available, as opposed to buying (currently) expensive new batteries. As you mention in your post, they (utilities) have already expressed interest in using the still largely viable “post-vehicle” batteries in locations such as large bldgs as load levelers. Battery prices *will* eventually come down (while the cost to the consumer of electricity goes up!) to a point where the utilities MAY eventually choose to buy them new, but this seems like a fiscally impressive way for *all* of us to get from here to there.
Be well,
Tagamet
+5
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:19 pm)I’d need to see studies on how much V2G cycling decreases my useful battery life vs. the pay I’d receive before making the decision. That’s a big downside of V2G I never see mentioned. Your batteries are cycled more = less mileage you’ll get out of it. Maybe you still come out ahead, I don’t know. Would really depend on the V2G cycling and the battery. I’m sure there are cases where it doesn’t make sense.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:23 pm)To give credit where credit is due, I think it was koz #14 who brought up this point. I just expanded it to the minimal use of capacitor smoothing. your point is valid in either case that the monetary benefit comes with little/no impact on the battery.
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:25 pm)While the modified sine **may** actually per chance work, (the telltale warning is that you had to attempt more than one startup!). What you might be careful of is that everything except resistance heaters, toasters, incandescent lights, and electric blankets have electronics which very very likely *will* be damaged in five to ten usages with modified sine.
If you *divide* all your emergency load wattages for the fridge and electronics added together (from simple resistance loads) , you can keep a lookout for something like a 500 to 1000 watt pure sine wave inverter for protecting those particular appliances. I’ve done extensive studies with both modified and pure sine inverters, and, the damages are very definite as well as **cumulative** with modified sine.
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:30 pm)If it was set up the way you describe, you’d be right. It’d make no sense. It was my understanding that most states had laws that require utilities to buy back excess power from home sources at Retail prices. *Maybe* I’m reading the Penna law backwards, but I don’t think so. Even if that was the case, the contracts for V2G would spell it out – so they wouldn’t have any “takers” if they were trying to rob you.
Degradation of the battery has already been addressed today.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:38 pm)You’re right, it would have to make monetary sense.
GM would not support this capability and provide a battery warranty unless this was all considered. So, assuming they would provide a warranty with V2G use, it would be their responsibility to engineer it properly so it would be cost effective. Perhaps there could be varying warranty levels based on a tiered V2G usage level. You would probably have to choose one at purchase time and it would be permanently pre-programmed into your Volt. In this way your expected and warrantied battery life could be weighed against the utility’s contracted compensation package.
There could be options provided to fit everyone’s situation.
Just thinking out loud.
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:43 pm)Tag,
You are absolutely correct for many reasons.
I happen to be aware of the “inside commentary” regarding both sides of the story on V2G.
GM would only be talking about this if there was a very strongly-compelling strongly-positive thing for the Voltec customer.
The utilities would only be relentlessly talking about this to GM (and other OEM’s) only if there was a very strongly-positive asset to be paid to the Voltec customer. You can be absolutely sure that if it was somehow going to help make the Voltec vehicle payments work significantly (better certainly than 5%) better, then Mr. Posawatz would be talking about it, and, most certainly with the blessings of the GM battery division, once those discussions had led to a win, win, win, win, assurance all around for GM, the utility, the Voltec owner, and by spin-off benefit, other residences on the grid as well.
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:46 pm)Thanks for the feedback Dan. That’s the kind of information I have been seeking.
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:46 pm)I’m in the “not relevant” camp on E85 because I’d have to drive 20 miles to get to a station which had it. That doesn’t seem very efficient. Hopefully that will change but I’m not holding my breadth.
I’m also more of an EV guy than an ethanol guy but if I were an ethanol guy and living in CA, which I think you do, I’d be looking at the microfueler. It’s kinda neat. You throw your grass clippings in one end and out comes E100 on the other. Now it does cost $10k — $7K after a tax credit — but an Impala + Microfueler probably costs less than a Volt. I think there is also an option for getting prepackaged yeast waste from your local brewery so you don’t have to mess with the grass clippings.
Available now AFAIK: http://www.microfueler.com/
Biofuels seem more promising than EVs in the near term because the transition is simpler. You can use existing vehicles and gas stations. Plus liquid fuels are far more energy dense and therefore convenient than electricity.
Finally I’d be shocked if the first Volts aren’t hardware ready for E100. It sounds more like this is a tuning issue related to CAFE and MPG than anything else. I’d be interested in knowing what would happen if you put E85 in one of the first Volts. My guess it would work without hurting the car; you’d just get less MPG than advertised in CS mode. (Could be wrong on this of course.)
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:47 pm)I’m more excited about the V2H possibilities of owning an EV or EREV than the V2G possibiliies. That said, HOORAY for yet another reason to motivate our society one step further in adopting new, non-petroleum solutions to personal and public transportation!
Just a FYI – National Geographic Channel is running the WORLD WITHOUT OIL program Monday, March 8 at 10pm. Check your channel guides or program your TiVos everybody. It should be a provocative program.
RECHARGE! James
Feb 21st, 2010 (12:59 pm)Is there no end to your knowledge base???(g) The only thing I think of when I see “sine” is sinuses.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:04 pm)Thanks for the heads-up on the program. I haven’t seen any promos for it.
Be well,
Tagamet
-2
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:05 pm)Super Vehicle to Grid (Super V2G) Cars as Powerful Power Plants!
Second generation V2G automobiles might be able to provide as much as 25 kW using a two way plug. It has been estimated that owners might earn as much as $3,000 per year.
Chava is developing what could become Third generation V2G vehicles. Steven Letendre, a V2G analyst at Green Mountain College, has termed our work Super V2G. Future cars and trucks will be able to provide up to 150 kW with a wireless connection to suitably equipped parking spaces. Payments to owners may very well be sufficient to pay for the vehicle.
Chava breakthroughs may make possible the elimination of the need for batteries of every variety. As a harbinger of the future, an early MagGen™ is expected to first demonstrate the ability to replace the need to plug-in a plug-in hybrid. Two kilowatts is all the power that can be taken from a typical wall socket. A pair of one kilowatt MagGens might demonstrate a compact, inexpensive, capability to end the need to plug-in. This will relieve the concern that plug-in electric and hybrid vehicles would depend on power generated using fossil or nuclear fuel.
A SPICE™ (Self Powered Internal Combustion Engine), in hybrid cars and trucks can run when parked, spinning a generator. Fueled by small quantities of ordinary water, an ECHO™ (Energy from Collapsing Hydrogen Orbits) fueled SPICE is one of two Super V2G systems presently on the Chava horizon.
MagGen powered cars are expected to be capable of initially generating at least 75 kW and later 100 kW. In the case of luxury cars, trucks and buses 150 kW will prove practical. MagGen is also potentially a Chava Super V2G system.
A substantial number of vehicles powered by MagGen, or its water sipping counterpart, an ECHO fueled SPICE, in a parking area or garage – will transform the array of parked vehicles into a multi-megawatt power plant.
For the steps involved in making this happen, see: http://www.aesopinstitute.org
For more about ECHO, SPICE and MagGen, see the Chava website. Look under: how?
ECHO is our name for fractional Hydrogen. BlackLight Power, a competitor, is the subject of a comprehensive article: “Newly Discovered Hydrinos can Provide Cheap Power for the World”, at: http://www.american-reporter.com The story is really about fractional Hydrogen.
Two laboratories have validated this hard to believe technology. More, including national labs, should do the experiments.
Magnetic generators are even harder to believe. However, Werner Heisenberg once said:“We could utilize magnetism as an energy source” .
In 1926 Hans Coler demonstrated a magnetic generator, tapping a new source of energy, to German University professors. Heisenberg, a physicist awarded a Nobel Prize, made the above statement the following year. In 1937 a 6 kilowatt version was shown. The German navy later supported the work. After WWII, Coler was the subject of a Report by British Intelligence. Declassified in 1980 it is available on the web.
Here again independent and national laboratories must validate the technology before it will be believed by anyone with scientific training.
The economics are likely to prove compelling. Until now, car ownership has been an expense. Vehicle to Grid power will change that dramatically. Doubtless, when millions of cars and trucks are selling power to the grid, the price per kilowatt paid will gradually decline. However, it still seems likely that the cost of many vehicles might be paid for by utilities. The parked cars, trucks and buses, each become decentralized power plants – a rapid, cost-effective alternative to the many tough and costly environmental challenges of constructing new coal burning and nuclear power generation facilities.
Vehicle manufacturers have a unique opportunity to lead the nation and the world into a dramatic reduction in the need for oil. Imagine a 24/7 development program.
The positive economic impact can hardly be exaggerated.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:09 pm)You’re right but maybe not for exactly these reasons. You have to distinguish the two components of getting a kWh of electricity to your house. One is the cost of providing the infrastructure for transmitting the electricity. The second is the electricity itself. When you get a kWh of electricity you’re paying for both. But when you sell a kWh back to the utility you’re only selling the electricity. The utility has to transport it. You’re calling this Retail and Wholesale but what you’re really talking about is electricity vs. electricity + transport.
So yes, depending on whether you’re using time of day pricing, you could lose money doing this. My guess is that this wouldn’t happen since the utilities would only buy the electricity at limited times of the day during limited times of the year so the price would be very high.
The other point you didn’t mention, which is germane and supports your negative view of the idea, is that the storage isn’t free. To charge the battery 8 kWh you would might need to buy 9 kWh, and when you drained those 8 kWh you might only get 7.5 kWh back out. (I think the charging discharging is only about 85% efficient round trip though I may be wrong on this). IOW there is a small toll or transaction fee exacted by the conversion technology on every charge/discharge cycle.
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:12 pm)Several other quick things. (pardon the off topic).
The batteries ought not be discharged lower than 50% soc. Also, if you can find a battery wholesaler that has some minor “blems” or very-short-term-used absorbed glass matt sealed lead acid batteries for about half price of thier wholesale, then, you have to just match the amp hours for a parallel set of power reserve batteries.
Solar panels are excellent to keep them “always topped off”. I use 150 watts of panels to keep 3,000 available watts (at 50% dod) charged in the motorhome. (Peak volts are critical to cut out 12 volt systems burnouts, esp. on 20 year old systems). I use just the cheap (not optimizing) $80 30 amp regulator, so you can mix panel types that (come up for sale at a good price) and, as long as they are the same output voltages for each one.
Back on topic. I think a 1000 to 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter as a GM factory option for a Voltec vehicle would be an outstanding optional thing to be able to buy for proper pure sine energy for everything, including to be able to power a small five amp/700 watt (at 120 volts) window room air conditioning unit for Summer emergencies for those with respiratory difficulties.
The Volt 52 kilowatt genset could recharge the 8,000 watts of 50% power useage in a short period of time, per GM battery division limits, and, you could get cooled down in the Volt itself while cooling one small room, for example, for 8 to 10 hours overnight. These are just a very few of all the incredible capabilities that GM is possibly going to be able to bring us.
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:14 pm)I’ve seen these too, and the first thing that occurred to me was to mention it to Captn Jack! No nasty 15% gasoline taste like E85. Of course, that was before I’d gotten to the price.. You could buy a LOT of grain alcohol from a liquor store for that kind of cash. I, er, read that somewhere.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:30 pm)Our utility (PPL) JUST sent out a mailing which explains this, because of the law recently passed here that allows electricity consumers to choose the *supplier* of the electricity – so that we can choose “green” sources. Basically the letter spelled out the fact that PPL would still be the *transporter* of the power – regardless of its source. Not surprisingly, it apparently costs a LOT to transport the power. (sigh)
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:31 pm)Moving a hydrogen atom to an energy level lower than its base state IS quite the trick.
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:33 pm)It’s probably the only benefit for not having wife/kids, but, the benefit is to be able to share it as much as I can here. (And, I am always thankful for Lyle and everyone else for tolerating my all-too-frequent “off topics”. But I am getting better at the limiting of, and the timing of OT’s, or, at the very least, working harder to be more relevant-to-discussion with them.)
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:33 pm)Yes, but only on the client side, with a dumd grid there is no host to communicate with. You may be stuck with carrying around some thing like the utilities direct load control boxes. I don’t know what a company like PJM uses to implement their system with battery providers though.
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:39 pm)Yeah. However you can look at it differently because, as Barney Frank says, the question is always “compared to what”? Think of the microfueler as a hobby. Then compare it to some other hobbies people have — like photography or collecting classic cars — and it’s suddenly not so expensive. Not to mention that a wife or significant other would probably be willing to spend $10K to have someone in the backyard mixing up grass clippings for the microfueler than to have them hanging out at strip clubs or something. Imagine how much better off Tiger Woods would be if he had been obsessed with biofuels rather than whatever he was obsessed with! LOL
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:39 pm)That’s a HIGH price – Pops built one out in the back-40 and put the hooch in the truck – it left the Revenuers IN THE DUST!!!
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:41 pm)I bet Medicare would cover it! (just kidding).
What I REALLY thought as I read this passage was, “Gee, and we’re having trouble educating Joe Sixpack that the Volt doesn’t stop after 40 miles!!”
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:46 pm)You’ve also made progress in the *length* of your posts (lol). Not quite approaching brevity (yet), but moving in its direction! (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:49 pm)=================
I think the counter is stuck. I did a +1 for nasaman, but it still says +9….. Bummer.
As far as today’s topic:
I am with nasaman on this one. I would be more interested in V2H than V2G. You will have a nice big genset and battery pack sitting right there in your garage, that gets used on a regular basis, so you don’t have to worry if the small backup generator you may have stored is going to work when needed.
Couldn’t this be made a part of the optional 240V charger unit? That already has all the necessary connections to the battery. If there were one or two 120V AC outlets that we could plug into, it would be very convenient in case of a power failure.
JMHO
NPNS
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:52 pm)Yes, even on a “dumb grid” if V2G is on board Volt!
The deal GM could do is also perform a “pass through” communications via the OnStar to any utility company that is merely signed up. ***No Extra Utility Equipment Needed!*** This would not be hard to do at all. If you’re plugged in anywhere, this could be something even the computer at any utility company could automatically check to see that you are plugged into a wall outlet or a 240 volt outlet to participate, via OnStar.
Even the value of possible Voltec power conditoning could be of high value to the business you are plugged into! If your business is next to a welding shop, you may be getting some surges if you are both on the same power pole transformer.
There are so very many things that OnStar system could be set up to do for you.
(I know I always sound like an ad, but this is all true what OnStar could have the capability for!)
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:52 pm)Sort of reminds you of the late night TV infomercials where the product costs $5.99 but they don’t mention the $25 shipping and handling fee, eh? Seriously, here in CA the utility bills show the breakdown between the generation and transport charges. The electrical transport fee is nothing when compared to that for natural gas. Natural gas has gotten so inexpensive you’re mostly paying for the transport. But that said, we use natural gas for everything that we can, including the clothes dryer and cooking, and our bill still is never more than $35/month, even during the winter (though in fairness we have heating degree hours rather than heating degree days
). So it’s hard to complain.
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:54 pm)You didn’t really quote Barney Frank, did you? (G). Regarding Tiger, one of my working hypotheses was that he HAD a microfueler, which is one of the very few ways to explain (not excuse) his behavior. (Occupational hazard for shrinks – wondering “why”).
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (1:59 pm)Jerk!
(but I say that with affection)(lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:01 pm)As a FYI I always read your posts. I usually don’t respond because I don’t have a different perspective to offer but they’re always interesting. Your practical experience balances out the more prevalent theoretical knowledge which others have. This is referred in the popular vernacular as “Keeping It Real”.
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:03 pm)I think there would be concerns in a power outage that power would go out to cause unsafe live wires when utility workers might be needing to reestablish power. Anything coming out of any power source can’t be put into a temporarily-dead power system.
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:05 pm)So *theoretically* I could take my wife shopping at the mall, park in a “Plug compliments of Macy’s” spot, and partially offset the cost of her shopping! Brilliant!
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:08 pm)Didn’t they use generators after Katrina? I honestly don’t know, but I thought that they did.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:15 pm)There was an equation for this:
PA + Coal Furnace = Incentive to Move
LOL
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:18 pm)Cute! (G) But we have an all electric house and live near two nuclear plants (Berwick and TMI).
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:20 pm)Yes, of course, but they didn’t connect the generators to the wall outlets in an attempt to send power all througout the house, which would also let that same power go out from the house in theory. (Even though the generator might immediately be overloaded, you don’t know where the power source is interrupted, to then become a live wire danger to not only line workers, but, to the house next door even). Plus, there are all sorts of hidden loads still switched “on” in any home.)
They used generators with those 50 to 100 foot long 10 guage generator extension cord cables with that box at the end with two duplex outlets (four places to plug things in).
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:30 pm)Thanks greatly, DonC,
Nice to know that. I hope others also feel the same.
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:34 pm)Yes, but Tag,
You know that old research study that documents the longer she stays there, the more she’ll spend. LOL. Yes, it ought to be complimentary, indeed!!! (Especially at a “stand-alone” jewelry shop. LOL).
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:34 pm)Excellent! So, eventually, the Volt could be used to do the same thing?
PS Imagine how long this exchange would have taken, way back when I used to write letters! Remarkable.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:37 pm)Uncontested, but I’m sitting in the car now ANYWAY! (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (2:46 pm)I think a battery DC to AC inverter would not only be an excellent option for GM to sell, but, it would prove far far more advantageous in dozens of exceptional ways than any separate generator (many of which were stolen from those stranded victims during the Katrina tragedy. Refrigeration and sterilizing/boiling water to cool down and later drink were some of the main needs). This could be an exceptional optional money maker for GM, based on watts of power needed as all inverters are priced. And, I would buy one as soon as I could afford it because I use 120 volts pure sine wave power for the HP printer to print diagnostic reports and waveforms every workday after scanning 5 or so seminar vehicles a day with the Genisys scanner.
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (3:19 pm)Dan, it should be stated more often that you are one of the most valued contributors here! Some things – like that- go unsaid, because they are so obvious, or as DonC mentions “you’ve kinda said it all”. And, as true as they are, those reasons provide absolutely no excuse. (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
/nap time. I didn’t sign off till 4 or 5 this morning. (yes, I forget)(lol) bbl
//nasaman is at +12! Yippee!
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (3:21 pm)Not only that, but if you have V2G, don’t you by definition have whole house backup for when there is a local outage. Those systems can be fairly expensive and helps to add practical value to the Volt.
Feb 21st, 2010 (3:26 pm)agree +1, There really are some tremendous contributors. Sometimes we don’t give enough appreciation.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (3:58 pm)Don C.
Fractional Hydrogen was first suggested in 1924. The late Dr. Robert L. Carroll, a mathematical physicist who worked with us for 12 years, predicted inverse quantum states would prove important in his 1975 book. His paper with that title preceded the work of BlackLight Power and carried through a mathematical analysis.
Ronald Bourgoin, one of his former graduate students, in a fairly recent paper shows that the wave equation predicts precisely the 137 levels of fractional Hydrogen that BlackLight describes.
Arie de Gues filed a patent application on a fractional Hydrogen energy generation system prior to his untimely passing. It reflected extensive experiments with what might be the simplest such system.
Frank Roarty has published extensively on the web concerning his comprehensive analysis of fractional Hydrogen. You might enjoy his posts.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (3:59 pm)I can’t believe Tony Posawatz didn’t come out and say V2G would VOID your warranty!
I read the posts about GM would not endorse this unless they had this all worked out, but it is hard to swallow. Chevy worked hard to provide a very thorough battery management system complete with liquid heating and cooling, and still limit the charge/discharge to 1/2 the available battery capacity. ALL in order to make the battery last 10 years!
Now they say it doesn’t matter if V2G steals cycles? If there was no concern then why not use the full battery from the beginning and offer 80 miles AER?
Feb 21st, 2010 (4:08 pm)Hey Tag, I know you said in post #104 that you are going to take a nap, but in case you read this when you come back, I wanted to ask you about post #97.
You said you live near TMI. Our daughter lives in Lemoyne. Is that close or what? Small world.
So let me know about how close you are to Harrisburg and I’ll send you a PM if I can figure out how to do that.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (5:29 pm)Wow, I’ve been away for 3 weeks and have come home to the new and improved Chevy Volt chatroom what a difference. Good work !
I went to a car museum while on my trip and was truly impressed by how cars have come in one hundred years. And of course there were the oddities that I’d forgotten about like the chain driven 3 wheelers. Some day the Volt will be in a museum, hopefully not as an odditty, but a best seller.
Feb 21st, 2010 (5:40 pm)300 a month sounds way to good to be true. At 300 a month forget the car lets just buy batteries to act as buffers. If these batteries are worth this much why wouldn’t the electric companies simply do this sort of thing thereselves and put/keep that money in their own pockets?
Time will tell.
+2
Feb 21st, 2010 (6:03 pm)V2G.. another reason to go electric…It just keeps getting better…..
It all started for me in 1995 when I first heard about the EV1.. then I rented a EV1 for two days while on vac … ever since then I’ve had the EV smile. I think the Chevy Volt is the result of the many dedicated engineers at GM… one of the most under appreciated assets in the US. We certainly do not give enough credit to these people. Great products like the Chevy Volt are the result of the combined effort of many of the hardest working and brightest people ….. Thank You .. GM Engineers and all the hard working people at GM who build the cars and trucks.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (6:04 pm)Wow!
I would like to charge my VOLT at night at off-peak rate and have it run the house — and have the electric company pay me for the opportunity to take more.
About setting up a shack full of batteries — sounds like the electric company is already paying
for that.
Since the VOLT’s traction motor is AC — there is already an inverter in there somewhere. Eeechky squarewave and may not give happy 60hz and not in sync with grid and not…
but..
The idea of electric drive, 8KWH available will drive imagination — people will come up
with some pretty cool solutions even this board hasn’t come up with.
Feb 21st, 2010 (6:30 pm)
Feb 21st, 2010 (6:31 pm)Well said! +1
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 21st, 2010 (6:34 pm)I work shift work but if you are commuting to work your car will likely not be available during the time of day that the v2g would be most often used.
Feb 21st, 2010 (6:35 pm)Hi Roy,
This was discussed pretty early in the thread – probably in the teens or 20’s. Just guessing though.
Hope this helps.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 21st, 2010 (6:46 pm)I said it before but apparently it isn’t sinking in for a lot of folks.
IT’S NOT ABOUT THE ENERGY. IT’S NOT ABOUT THE ENERGY.
Beneficial V2G, the kind being discussed here, is NOT about cycling lots energy through the battery.
Feb 21st, 2010 (6:59 pm)Is this what you meant Koz? It’s post #14 – only a little over a hundred comments ago..
Still well said though.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (7:41 pm)My goal is to take advantage of opportunity charging. The two main providers now are downtown parking structures which provide the first 75 minutes free. And workplace 110v outlets.
If you haven’t already. Talk about charge spaces at your workplace. Ten to twelve cents per hour is about average. Smart employers are willing to provide this inexpensive benefit for the positive image boost and improved employee moral.
I was a lone wolf for a time at my workplace. Begging for recharge spaces. Turns out one of the new managers is in the electric bicycle business. And we have a new covered scooter parking area with 110v plug in access. So far just a few spaces in the main structures for EV. The seed has been planted and I know the idea is being kicked around. My next targets are the local golf courses. Build it and they will come. The Cadillac Converj and the golf course is a match made in Heaven. Buicks are currently the vehicle of choice at golf courses.
All of us can contribute to the shift to low cost electric drive.
=D-Volt
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (7:50 pm)I’m pretty sure that nobody said “it wouldn’t matter”. I think that V2G implies that the battery managment system is tied in and in the loop, if not in control.
Feb 21st, 2010 (8:08 pm)Over active paranoid? Upon re-reading the post, it does not directly quote Tony Posawatz as stating that he supports V2G, only that the Volt has communications ability to charge on demand, and I understand that implies discharge or V2G too, but his quote was aimed at the ability to increase the odds of charging the battery when “green” power was available. He stated that the Volt battery could be used for load leveling AFTER it’s life in the car was finished. I know if I was deciding GM policy I would definitely void the warranty if there were extra cycles used in V2G, warranting the battery for this potential abuse could be very expensive.
I know this was “discussed” earlier on in this thread, but I think discussed lightly and dismissed. My position is simply that I do not agree with all you super optimists. I would like to agree with you, but I just don’t think it is rational.
Take care.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:02 pm)I have an ot? For the folks on here more exp then I in green tech. Just saw a 60 min on bloom energy. It’s a fuel cell company that claims to be 50% more efficient than a gas turbine power plant and can run on natural or biogas or solar. They showed early adopters on camera google, eBay and others all very happy and saving money. Inventor claimed to be able to be in mass produced household application within 3 yrs. Btw claimed entire process used no rare metals like all other fuel cells. Anyone know if these Guys are for real?
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:46 pm)Yes, very interesting. For those that missed 60 minutes:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/18/60minutes/main6221135.shtml
Not for cars but could be huge for stationary power. Seems like from where they already are, the biggest hurdle is scaling production. Too little detail at this point to make much of a judgement about there chances but it sounds pretty promising. It still requires fuel so it is only part of the equation but if efficiencies, costs, and reliable are in line it will be HUGE. Big money and big customers are already behind them which is also encouraging.
Feb 21st, 2010 (9:50 pm)Yes, thank you. My hope is that more people take the time to better understand what is being proposed before their opinions get too entrenched.
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:02 pm)Just trying to help direct you to the previous comments, rather than re-type them (using 4 fingers makes it slow going). There MAY even be a few (very rare) isolated individuals who jump in on comment #100 without actually reading the first 99.
“Rational” is one of those very slippery concepts, so how about we just put you down as a “NO”.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:20 pm)I saw it too, and was particularly impressed with the backing it was getting at $700K a pop. I don’t see why it couldn’t be used in vehicles, but I don’t know how fragile it is (it’s a compilation of thin metal plates). The smallest unit looked to be about 6 inches square (not counting the fuel canister), so if it’s durable I don’t know why it couldn’t be a power source in a vehicle.
It was “interesting” that a single one of the smallest size (he says) could power 4 Asian homes. One of them could power a European home, but it would take TWO of them to power the average US home. Things that make ya go Hmmmm.
He thought that they would eventually cost $3K (plus fuel). His time-line was very aggressive – power all American homes within 5 years or so. He figured that the power company’s could run large ones and provide the power by existing lines (I think). Please correct any errors of recall.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:25 pm)You’re your own grass roots campaign! +1
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (10:49 pm)My concern exactly!
Now, if those inexpensive low temperature sodium sulfur batteries (as found by Jackson) appear THEN I see it as possiblity to ’supplement’ the grid from my home.
But kindly leave my very expensive Volt batteries alone.
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:17 pm)Unfortunately I missed 60 minutes but read the article on the segment. Everything there agrees with what you wrote as far as I remember it. I agree, their timeframe is unrealistic but it’s better to aim high I suppsoe.
Car’s require a lot of power, even for the range extender (50KW for the Volt’s). From the looks of it, this would be a very big Bloom fuel cell.
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:19 pm)Yes, exactly why I brought it up here. If this pans out to be real it will change autos, all autos, the fuel cell box that can power a house could run a semi with ease or 10 of them to run a freight train, 100 to run a cargo ship. It seems to have a real potential to replace all ice’s period. I’m not usually a fuel cell geek as they always seem to be 10 yrs away. But this seems to be real, I hope it is anyway. I think this is deserving of a thread and some more discussion.
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:58 pm)Well, not only 60 minutes is talking about a breakthrough, Science Daily claims that a once in a lifetime breakthrough has been made in ethanol production: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100218090814.htm
Maybe really good stuff is happening all around us. Gee, maybe even EEStor will come through.
As Tag says, Be Well everyone,
Regards,
John
+1
Feb 21st, 2010 (11:59 pm)My comment: This just-announced Bloom Box, which is a high-efficiency fuel cell that offers promise of low-cost, clean electrical energy that’s portable, would seem to have the potential to replace the Volt’s ICE (and perhaps even its Li-Ion battery?). I’ve reviewed today’s ‘60 Minutes’ segment on this and believe this invention, which had its beginnings in NASA- sponsored work, is already being manufactured and installed, and is clearly much more plausible than the EESTOR concept. As such, I agree this topic deserves its own thread here, Lyle!
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6228923n&tag=contentMain;contentBody
+1
Feb 22nd, 2010 (12:33 am)Any “income” realized by the consumer that comes from the electric companies will surely be “taxed” by the state, so the net benefit of this very expensive proposition to the consumer is ZERO.
Feb 22nd, 2010 (12:47 am)Couldn’t have said it better myself!
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 22nd, 2010 (12:51 am)Wouldn’t states like Calif do something very special for such a “green” effort?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 22nd, 2010 (1:28 am)Maybe I’m just tired, but this article has several statements which (to me) don’t make sense. Has anyone else read it and found anything confusing?
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 22nd, 2010 (1:55 am)Yes, I noticed that too. It talks of using orange peals and newspapers to make sugar, and then goes on to say that no one has made celuostic eathonal yet. I think the distinction was they can make sugar from cellouose and then turn that into ethenol, and that no one can turn cellulose directly into it. Is that what you were talking about?
+1
Feb 22nd, 2010 (2:00 am)Unless you have really fantastic battery cycle life, it’s not going to be worth it for 3 cents a kWh. Let’s say you cycled the Volt 8kWh fully every day to make 24 cents a day, 365 days a year = $87.6 bucks a year. There is no way that pays for shortening (halving?) the lifetime of your battery.
You’d be better off just shoving a little power back in on a net metering account in an expensive area. I can pull in $0.30/kWh in the middle of the day on my net metering account. Of course, that only can be used to zero my electric bill. But that’s still a zero electric bill and a 10x less battery wear for the same $$ earnings. Plus less wear because you’d be effectively capped as to how much you can sell back (enough to zero the bill) so you’d sell back less total power.
I have about 50kWh of AGM battery backup for the house and I do a little bit of that in the fall when the solar panels don’t provide power into the evening while the rates are still high at 0.30/kWh. Running less than 1- 2% of the bank’s storage capacity for a few days of the year should not appreciably affect their lifetime and it’s actually worth a few hundred bucks over the lifetime of the bank.
Feb 22nd, 2010 (2:08 am)Bingo! I’m sitting here thinking “Coskata can do that…”. They also talked about one ethanol gives off more CO2 than another?? And that one ethanol was worse than gasoline? Or did I read that part wrong?
Thanks!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 22nd, 2010 (2:30 am)Well, here on the (far) Right Coast it’s getting ~late.
CU a little later.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Feb 22nd, 2010 (10:21 am)You’re talking about a grid connected solar system with off grid system type on site energy storage. Any compentent solar installation company (make sure their staff is at least half NABCEP certified) can set you up in a snap and depending on where you live, the utility will have to pay you more than 2 1/2 cents a kWh.
Solar installation companies are likely to push you more towards deep cycle marine batteries than lithium, though, on cost and familiarity if for no other reason.
The economic synergies possible with electric vehicles are just barely starting to be be looked at by utilities and mainstream distributed power developers and installation companies, not even by regular business folks.
+1
Feb 22nd, 2010 (11:17 am)#142
Yeah, the possibilities really do seem huge. Bring it on, IMHO. +1
+1
Feb 22nd, 2010 (1:12 pm)“A small study out of the University of Delaware using converted electric Scions (E-Boxes) having 17 kwh batteries plugged in an average of 21.5 hours per day yielded around $300 per month per driver.”
Am I the only one questioning an average of 21.5 hours per day? The only way that happens is if a whole lot of them were plugged in all the time. I work 10 hours per day. Unless my boss lets me plug in my car while I’m there, it’s not going to happen unless I start working from home. Even if my boss did let me plug in at work, that extra charge/grid time would be paid to the company I work for, not me.
Not to mention the power company needs the extra power during peak hours. So if you work the night shift or, my shift (2PM – midnight) the car would be useless to the grid because the extra power wouldn’t be available when it is needed.
I’m not trying to be a downer, but just looking at the numbers it doesn’t seem like it should make a difference to the car owners. Like the article said, it’s not enough of an offset to influence a purchase or decision to convert a vehicle.
+2
Feb 22nd, 2010 (1:52 pm)V2G was, and still remains, a terrible idea.
1) The life of your expensive battery pack is measured in the total number of cycles it can sustain. It’s unlikely that power company payments will recompense you for the effect of added cycles and the cost of electricity
2) Unless you totally re-arrange your personal schedule (unlikely for most), the car will be unplugged at the very time that the utility needs the extra energy
3) You place yourself in a position where you may not have the range necessary to do the driving which you expect (to say nothing of driving you may not expect). No, and EREV driver isn’t stuck, but is in the position of using $3 – $4 a gallon gas to replace 50 cents to $1 in stored electricity.
About the only way V2G makes sense is if the power utility owns the battery to begin with, and makes it part of a lower-cost lease contract. If they wear the battery out with constant charging and discharging, it becomes their problem (and they can then put the half-dead pack into it’s captive “hall ‘o batteries” to access whenever they want).
Most posters here are already on record on the issue of any lease. No way. One of the main attraction of an EV is the prospect of becoming less dependent on larger infrastructure, V2G would make you more dependent.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll continue saying it: The electric utility industry is far better served to develop it’s own large-format battery pack infrastructure to manage grid loads, rather than to tap into tied-down EVs. Professionally managed giant batteries can be distributed to substations, allowing power to be delivered at night which will not be needed until the following day — over existing lines.
Feb 22nd, 2010 (5:54 pm)Educate yourselves on why this is one of the dumbest ideas ever.
http://depletedcranium.com/why-vehicle-to-grid-is-a-horrible-idea/
I’ll also crib a comment from one of his readers DV82XL
‘Not only that, this would never be needed except for that other energy delusion: renewables. A robust supply of nuclear generated power would make the need for storage moot. So now we are building one fantasy system on top of another. Jesus weeps.’
Feb 23rd, 2010 (3:33 am)Well, terrible idea for us consumers. But not terrible for the power companies!
Which is why we keep hearing so much about it. I’m sure these V2G news blurbs are always pushed out by power providers. I don’t know any consumer chomping at the bit to buy and burn out $10k worth of batteries to make eighty bucks a year for a few years. 
Feb 23rd, 2010 (10:53 am)Even if v2g is a “bad” idea, the ability to run the house (electrical appliances…) with my car is sexy. Sure would make camping easier to take. I personally wouldn’t mind loosing 5miles of range (25%) say once a week, more in summer… for a $50/mo check. Expec if the electric company pulls it for the 6-8pm peak.
Pretty complicated ‘tho — Just call it “Smart Grid” and >PooF< its there… lol
Feb 24th, 2010 (9:26 am)Utility load balancing is a big thing — via control of load or other means. Looks like V2G is less of a pipe-dream than I imagined.
http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2010/02/24/world-energy-unveils-demand-response-auctions-disrupting-a-market-dominated-by-bostons-enernoc/
Google is getting involved too…
Feb 25th, 2010 (6:21 am)I don’t see how you’d get paid, unless you’re buying energy at a lower rate than a utility would be buying it back from you. Or if they’re paying you simply for the potential of using the energy stored in your battery – basically you making it available to them.
The other problem I see is what happens when you get to work, say, with X amount of range left. You plug in and your car charges, but the grid takes that energy back. You get paid, but at 5pm, you leave the office and you don’t have enough energy to get home. Will you be able to dictate a threshold, so that you don’t get shafted?
Mar 8th, 2010 (8:56 am)If you think about it, this is nice since you just have to buy those electric cars and get paid. On the other hand, will it be worth it since you have to recharge it? How much will you gain and lose from it? It would be such a hassle.