Nissan came along with its LEAF EV after GM introduced the Volt and has been racing well to catch up to the public buzz and interest.
GM has not yet made clear the Volt purchase process or pricing, though they have acknowledged the car will rollout in November in California, Michigan, and Washington DC simultaneously, with other markets to follow.
On Thursday Nissan completed its national tour of showing the LEAF showcar at 63 stops in 24 cities when it arrived in New York. Coincident with this, the company announced more details about the LEAF’s purchase process, and released a teaser ad.
Nissan is now saying consumers will be cable to either purchase OR lease the LEAF in ” a single transaction that includes the battery.” ”When you buy the car – you are buying the battery,” a Nissan spokesperson told GM-Volt. ”When you lease the car – you are leasing the battery”.
The steps to acquire the car will be to first register on the official LEAF website, then to reserve the car with a refundable $100 deposit in April, and finally place a firm order in August.
The car will rollout to “select markets” beginning in December followed by “all major launch markets quickly thereafter.”
Nissan says they have nearly 50,000 people registered as showing interest in the car on their website. They have also said the price of the LEAF will be made public in April. Nissan remains hush on the exact price, but a spokesperson did quote executives are saying “there will be a ‘wow’ factor with how affordable it is.” The $7500 tax credit will apply.
Nissan’s Americas chairman Carlos Tavares indicated that Nissan expects to sell about 20,000 LEAF EVs in the first year.
“The Nissan LEAF purchase process is effortless, transparent and accessible, offering value with a one-stop-shop approach for everything related to the car, including the assessment, permitting and installation of in-home battery-charging units,” said Tavares.
“It’s not a car just for early adopters or green addicts,” he added.
The initial markets are going to be the ones from The EV Project, where they are putting in public infrastructure: Seattle, Oregon, Tennessee (Knoxville, Nashville and Chattanooga), Phoenix/Tucson, Ariz., and San Diego.
Below is a teaser video of Nissan’s new “The New Car” ad campaign.
+5
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:41 am)if the car comes with the battery, I’m not buying any car where the battery is cooled by the cabin air
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:46 am)We dont know much about the chemistry Nissan chose, it may be fine after all.
Its not that bad if you live in a temperate climate or the car lives in a garage.. in any case the battery pack is under the floor boards so its not in the cabin.. no idea if cabin air is used to ventilate it, probably it is a sealed pack.
+15
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:46 am)I am sure this car has a place in the EV world, but it is not the first electric car I would want to buy.
I am still convinced that the E-REV design makes more sense right now.
NPNS
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:48 am)Note the blatant ripoff of the Volt’s mobile phone controls idea.
+9
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:55 am)I can’t help but feel that NISSAN is setting itself up for a fall by rushing this car to market:
No thermal management of the battery pack + a shortened battery life due to daily deep discharge by users + compressed development process = potential for trouble (squared).
As much as I admire Nissan for its leadership in promoting EVs, I for one would not touch this car with a ten foot pole until it’s been on the market for at least two years.
The question is: How much collateral damage will the Volt suffer should (when?) my fears about the LEAF’s shortcomings come true.
In contrast, you can learn how well GM has thought through the details of the Volt by reading this fascinating review of the Volt by the Vancouver EV club. LOTS of details about the Volt that were news to me.
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1815
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:58 am)I guess I’m getting more cautious as I get older. I am no longer an ‘early adopter’ for a BEV vehicle. Maybe 3rd model year, I will take a look at it.
Seems like Nissan is backing down on their production. Didn’t they say 100k cars per year earlier?
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:03 am)At this moment NISSAN is well ahead of Volt in its local attractiveness. The NISSAN local demos have been in the local newspapers several times. Mainly LEAF is more “real” because it seems that the opportunity to purchase one here (central NC) is real.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:04 am)P.S.
ran out of edit time.
I meant to say, I wouldn’t touch the Leaf with a ten-foot pole as a buyer.
Would I consider a lease? Maybe. But I’d still rather have a Volt.
+3
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:05 am)Well that’s pretty much exactly what I was going to post. I think the good news will be that the Volt will be out soon enough that by the time the LEAF battery issues start putting a tarnish on the “car battery” idea due to their having no thermal management the Volt will already be out and about. GM can just say “Those are the kind of issues that happen when you don’t take care of the battery. We know all those issues which is why the Volt has an advanced battery system. This system makes sure the car battery is always properly maintained so through proper design and engineering we avoid these problems.”
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:07 am)Perhaps so. The other side is that they will be the market leader, at least for a while.
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:10 am)“The Nissan LEAF purchase process is effortless, transparent and accessible, offering value with a one-stop-shop approach for everything related to the car, including the assessment, permitting and installation of in-home battery-charging units,” said Tavares.
The need for “assessment, permitting, and installation” will be a big drawback for the LEAF, because people are not used to having to do that. Also, around here it takes forever once the county government becomes involved. The famous question from car salesmen is “What would it take for you to buy a car TODAY.” It will not have the same ring if it has to be “in 30 to 45 days, maybe.”
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:18 am)I’m not so sure they don’t know what they are doing. After all, Nissan produced its first lithium battery powered electric car over a decade ago:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/press/date/19971229/press008845.html
Most accounts I’ve read of that car were very positive, and I’m sure Nissan hasn’t been sitting on its laurels for the last 10 years.
Even if you are skeptical of the durability/quality of the Leaf it is probably wise not to discount it out of hand. It may surprise us!
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:18 am)See, GM, we Tennesseans are putting in EV infrastructure! Please let us have a Volt soon!
OK, enough whining.
I’d be hesitant to invest in a leaf right now. I’d want to see more real life conditions and see how it comes through. For example, this winter has been particularly rough in this area and I’d like to know how the leaf’s battery would fare under those conditions. Also how would its design work in the slushy, slippery conditions we’ve had all winter.
On a completely different (third) note, anyone know when the 2011 model year Fusion Hybrid is scheduled to be available?
+3
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:25 am)Nissan may likely have a slightly better battery pack available by the time the first ones begin to degrade. They may not be as concerned about thermal management of thier first set of packs if that is what is true. That might relate to their initial interest in PBP quick change stations, but, I really doubt lots of quick changes will be necessary for any great quantity of pack changes, at the now known sales number at about 20,000 units distributed within over a thousand(?) dealerships.
Still, what Nissan is doing is certainly interesting. It’s a markedly different transportation market for BEV’s than it is for EREV’s of course.
It would also not surprise me to see an entirely different style on the front end at time of sale.
But if I’m going to get another note for anything, for one of several major considerations, it is going to be for something that isn’t going to need a major (battery) expense for 10 years. Only Volt fits that spec for lots of us.
+4
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:25 am)Nissan’s Americas chairman Carlos Tavares indicated that Nissan expects to sell about 20,000 LEAF EVs in the first year.
Maybe in the mild climate central states, but in the North or deep South where drivers need heat or cooling BEVs like the LEAF will fail, rage anxiety will prevail.
All will hail long live the VOLT!
NPNS!
+4
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:31 am)I would rather be on the waiting list for a Volt, however since it appears GM will not use this waitlist, and Nissan will use their waitlist (which I am on), I will put down my $100 deposit. It will be another few years until I would be able to get a Volt, so why not go electric with the Leaf.
I’m on the invited list to see the Leaf in NYC today, on my way….
-1
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:33 am)I was trying to come up with something more creative than “Range Anxiety”, so I thought you could put the two words together to get RANX, but that just doesn’t flow off your tongue very well.
Then I thought of this one:
Left Empty & Alone Floundering – LEAF!
+10
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:34 am)Where do I send the check again?
“Any EV with 4 seats, from a major automaker, that is within the electric range of where I bought it”
Both a Volt and a Leaf in the driveway in 2011?
/oh to dream
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:50 am)Yes.
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:55 am)After you wake up, here’s where you send the check:
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/opt-in/en/index.jsp
And not that you’re necessarily into saving money, but if you were, the check may only need to be for $22,800.
____
“The Japanese automaker will announce pricing in April, but a spokesman says the price will be similar to that of a base-level Toyota Prius hybrid, which starts at $22,800.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100211/ap_on_bi_ge/us_nissan_leaf_2
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:08 am)My Chevrolet dealer is less than a mile away from me…
+12
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:10 am)Can they make it a little less fugly?
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:12 am)I like the area where the put the charge port. I was thinking that’s where GM should have placed it on the Volt when they couldn’t fit the new standard port in the original location.
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:12 am)Don’t forget that Nissan is part of the big Japanese three automakers (along with Toyota and Honda) that sunk the American automakers with their quality, ability to quickly meet market demands, and efficiency. They aren’t in the business of going out of business. They have a plan and a purpose for the LEAF that might not be evident at this point.
+5
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:16 am)Makes more sense to you. It should be clear to everyone that comes here regularly, that both approaches make plenty of sense right now. Both approaches in tandem will get us where we want to much faster than either would alone.
+14
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:17 am)I am a single car person. Last night I found out I had a 7am meeting in Detroit. Even if the Leaf actually got a 100 mile range, that still would not be enough. I don’t want to own/maintain two cars. I don’t want to have to rent a car all the time either. Besides all of the technical/other issues I have, range is #1.
-1
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:18 am)I think Nissan is accurately marking the 2011-12 battle line here –Prius vs. Leaf will be the green car volume sales battle royale (look for car mag covers depicting such).
Ford will likely not have any production numbers with the BEV focus to compete in the electric arena, but will try to stay in the mix with high mpg ice (ecoboost focus/fusion). And GM —- where/what is the Cruze?
+5
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:26 am)This automatically excludes you from BEV ownership (imo). I would think there are very few single car households that could/would deal with a BEV.
+3
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:27 am)if you take a look at the current AutoWeek, they have a look-alike picture of a 3/4 front view of the Nissan Leaf and a BIG, UGLY catfish. It’s obvious that was the model for the front-end design.
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:41 am)I live 75 miles outside of Phoenix. There are esentially no charging stations in Phx but this confirms what I had read somewhere else that Nissan was going to put in a network in Phoenix and Tucson. Interestingly enough with Tucson 117 miles south of Phx, If they put in one Quick charge station between the 2 cities, they would essentially open up a huge part of Arizona to pure EV. Even though the battery management issue is troublesome, I’m willing to keep an open mind about this car. Plus, Nissan is not a dumb car company, if they have the guts to put it in the Phoenix heat then the battery management issue might not be as critical as we think. Quick change probably dictates air cooled it.
“Mr. Spock, I shall consider it.”
+10
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:42 am)It’s fugly, it’s foreign, and it comes standard with range anxiety.
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:47 am)Just because you’re ignorant of the facts doesn’t mean the rest of us are. If you’re going to question my direct statement, you should at least be keeping up with the articles that are posted here.
“Instead of including a separate high-tech computer controlled liquid heating and cooling system like the Volt has, Nissan is simply blowing cabin air into the pack with a fan.”
http://gm-volt.com/2010/01/28/nissan-taking-shortcut-on-leaf-battery-no-thermal-management-system/
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:48 am)My wife and I are definately going to consider the Leaf since we live in Tucson. Depending on where the numbers are, especially the Battery warranty and battery lease terms. I think the Leaf has tremendous potential especially in Europe and Asia. GM should of had an official want list like NISSAN does. If I’m not satisfied with the details, we will wait until next gen. battery already being developed.
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:48 am)My thoughts also. Kind of Prius-like? Maybe on purpose? These guys are not so dumb. Dumb like a fox?
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:50 am)BTW, I must say that the look of the site is pretty spiffy today. With Lyle’s tweaks and the basic look it is growing on me pretty fast.
-4
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:53 am)Spoken like a true ‘Merkin. Here ya go buddy, . . . pinch of skoal?
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:58 am)Gee, I thought it was BetterPlace who had the idea 1st, then GM copied it. Remember, Nissan has been working on this for years BEFORE GM decided on any interface.
+7
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:59 am)I am hoping the LEAF really takes off! Then GM will wake up and reconsider their tiny production run of the VOLT.
Even The Coneheads want to consume mass quantities.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:04 am)Hey, genius. Did you happen to read the source article for Lyle’s post?
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/
/ the source article is linked down at the bottom of Lyle’s post, cleverly labelled “source”.
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:10 am)Nissan is right on track with this car. The initial iteration doesn’t have to be perfect. It only has to be “good enough”. Meet the low expectation of early adopters. Win mindshare. Additional features will come with time and costs will go down with future battery technology advances. In the mean time, they’ve already won mindshare and customer loyalty.
This is about mindshare. Nissan looked at what GM was doing and looked again at the market and decided that GM is over-engineering the solution. Faster, cheaper, better – choose two. They are betting that “faster and cheaper” will result in the folks mindshare perception as “better”.
IMO, GM should consider acting like a “service provider” instead of big brother.
I’m a Volt fan. The platform makes perfect sense. But you have to also give the customer what they want – not just what you feel they need. Ford is responding to customer “wants” with a BEV Focus and Transit Connect. What is GM offering? You can purchase a Volt (40k or 30k using your neighbors money) or a Gas powered (read dinosaur technology) Cruze. They should at least be offering a BEV Volt/Cruze Day 1.
I’d go one step further and offer the BEV with or without battery heating/cooling options. Let the customer make the choice. Without the battery heating/cooling you get pricing around the Nissan Leaf. With the battery heating/cooling you pay a premium but… you’re a smarter customer, you’re not as goofy as one of those “Leaf” buyers. You know better.
Will GM do anything like this? No way. Why? They’re an engineering company, not a marketing company. What I mean is that GM will engineer a solution and “decide” that that’s the “best” way and that’s all they’ll provide. Marketing companies will respond to customers perceptions and give customers what they want. And marketing companies always win.
+6
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:22 am)Perhaps GM should produce a “range envy” commercial. That would be great!
Telsa on the side of the road. Driver looking wistfully as the Volt drives by. Text at the bottom of the screen.
loginquitas invidia (lat.)
“RANGE ENVY”
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:24 am)+1 for that.
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:33 am)Of course. However, in this venue I much prefer to quote Lyle, especially since his article was emblazoned on the homepage not two weeks ago.
+5
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:33 am)Having the charge port in the front, to me, is the worst place to put it. A slight accident could easily put this car out of commission not to mention the safety aspect of it. If this is an example of it’s engineering, I’m not impress.
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:41 am)___________________________________________________________________
#18 statik Said:
“…Both a Volt and a Leaf in the driveway in 2011?
/oh to dream …”
————————————-
Question for Statik:
Why do you have a strong desire to own an EREV and/or BEV? I don’t recall you ever giving a reason.
_____________________________________________________________________
-2
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:44 am)All this talk of no thermal management but the Volt battery is still greatly reduced in cold weather. Pick your evil. It came out of the GM hose’s mouth that cold weather drastically reduced his range. Even with all the effort put forth to thermally control the battery it still sucks in cold. Give me a break.
I’d buy a leaf but i’m not on the list. so my chances would the same as my chances for a volt. Slim to none for the next 2 years or so. I think both will sell out, The Volt to the wealthy and the leaf to the common commuterite.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:45 am)Nissan showed some generic phone and internet capabilities that were pretty impressive before GM showed their interfaces for specific carriers at the CES show.
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:45 am)Good for Nissan for trying something new.
I however will not buy one.
There is just too much risk to my family were they caught in bad weather.
No range extender, no sale.
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:47 am)Lyle, I like your new interface, but I was wondering if the horizontal line separating the comments would be better under the word “(quote)” instead of under where it presently is at?
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:52 am)Thanks for the link.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:56 am)Amen!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:57 am)Get ready for CAR 2.0, the LEAF will be a huge step forward for America. A very handsome car at a totally awesome price (not including the $7500 discount). Most would buy this car without any government incentive.
I don’t think this car will compete with the Volt at all. The Volt aims to be your only car for long and short trips while the LEAF is strictly a utility commuter second-car at a very cheap price. I think the Volt is trying to be too much and too expensive.
The LEAF will be my go-to-work car and that’s it. It will pay for itself rapidly. Hundred mile range is adequate and really like the option to buy or lease, very nice NISSAN !
Andy, Goober,Floyd and Otis want one too.
Unfortunately Aunt Bee and Thelma Lou still want a Volt.
+4
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:00 am)Almost all devices work with much reduced efficiency in cold weather.
Batteries are weaker, bearings are stiffer, tires are harder.
The fluids in the mechanical bits are thick like honey.
Just a little bit of reality.
What happens to a Leaf parked outside at -20c NOT plugged in for 8 hours while at work?
I think you will have a frozen block of non-mobile Leaf.
A Volt will start the range extender and get you home without issue.
My choice is clear, the Volt remains the ONLY EV I will consider.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:02 am)GENTLEMEN! Play nice. (please).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:04 am)Yep, I think many of us here feel the same way. +1
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+3
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:05 am)I agree! And as a Tesla Roadster owner, Prowler, I consider you highly qualified to judge what a fully-electric car should look like! Hey, your Roadster takes at least two steps forward in EV drive trains and in styling; to me, the Leaf takes a full step backward in EV drive trains AND AT LEAST 10 STEPS BACKWARD IN STYLING! Funky is one thing; fugly is inexcusible! I can almost abide the Leaf’s funky rear end and its interior and side views are OK. But that fugly front end just makes me to puke —I sincerely hope they’ve got a crash redesign effort under way and will surprise the world with an attractive front end design when the car goes on sale!
PS: Lyle, your new site design (unlike the Leaf) is clean & green —much too nice for this mean machine!
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:08 am)Checkout this BBC interview of Ghosn.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8501348.stm
BTW, looks like Tesla’s FUD about nissan battery has some people fooled.
+4
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:10 am)Well then, marketing companies better darn well have good engineers to implement the response to customer’s desires. Companies can’t “win” unless they have a sensitivity to the customer needs AND the ability to meet them. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:13 am)Herm actually put this quote in one of his comments a few posts ago. If you work together you could likely get the full story for us.
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:16 am)Good morning, JohnK. I had some struggles posting yesterday, but did reply to your post very late (early AM) in the last thread. Didn’t want you to think I’d ignored you (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:19 am)The left side of all the posts are still cut off on my browser, is there anything that can be done to make this readable?
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:24 am)Sounds like a great sub-theme for the day. Since you’ve already addressed the “LEA” part well, the only one left (with a lot of potentials) is “the F word. Hmmm. One option that somehow pops to mind would be in the past tense…. (did I say that out loud)?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+4
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:24 am)Its because you are using Internet Explorer 6.0 which most websites no longer support. Being that about 10% of readers here still use it, my coder is working on a fix. Hopefully it will render well by day’s end. Thanks for your patience.
-6
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:24 am)You must know the chemistry makeup of the pack for the leaf then, Please enlighten all of us since you obviously know the cells chemistry will be useless at that temp. I highly disagree.
What happens to the Volt at that temp? It turns into a polluting gas burner. At that temp you can kiss the performance of the catalytic converter goodbye and all the greenwashing in battery mode has just been flushed down your toilet. Gross polluter just like a regular ICE.
However, I do expect that they will sell the leaf in warmer climate states.
+4
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:25 am)I want to be as smug as hell
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:26 am)hi Loboc #6 …
I believe Nissan first stated that they would produce 60k-80k Leaf this year. With sales starting in early Summer. GM stated that they would stick with the end of the year release of the Volt. Producing about 8k in 2010. And as many as 60k in 2011.
__________________________
“…consumers will be able to either purchase…”
When a topic like this comes up. I draw on personal experience. Have spoken with many EV owners here locally. And am surprised when ‘range anxiety’ in mentioned. These normally happy and mellow folks turn aggressive. A typical response is, “Not me.. never! No problem with this”.
Nissan touches on a “wow” price (after $7500 rebate). To me, a wow price is $18,599 after tax credit. If the “wow” price is $29,000 minus $7500. Then Nissan is dreaming.
The Volt remains the way to go. Remember the Razor cell phone line? About a million people were using good Samsung flip phones. But when the Razor was released 800,000 of these flip phone owners migrated to the newest and coolest electronic device available. Why, I don’t know. It’s just how it is. Rent payment still falls behind cell plan payment as a priority.
=D~
+3
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:27 am)Exactly what I was thinking.
+1
+4
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:30 am)…kidding
Although I do think it is expected to say something noble like ‘getting off foreign oil,’ but I can be honest with myself.
Heck I’ll rank the reasons:
1.) I want drive autonomously on power I produce myself (I like to be a island…or the Thunder-Dome, w/e)
2.) Eco-smugness is fun
3.) Air pollution/climate/future for my kids, etc
4.) Foreign Oil
You’ll notice there is nothing about the financial savings.
Sure it would be nice to save a couple hundred bucks a month…but EVs are a money pit compared to comparable ICE vehicles. (imo) I know you can ‘do the math’ over 100 years and with gas at $20/gallon and break even theoretically (I exaggerate for fun), but personally I like new cars. The longest new car I ever kept was a 92 Dodge (Mitsu) Stealth Twin Turbo, and I only had that just over 4 years. I could say I would keep a EV longer…past history tells me that I won’t.
I can’t see myself spending 70-80K on a couple new EVs and holding onto them for a decade. I’ll resell them to someone else, they can displace their ICE vehicle, and I’ll buy a new one. Circle of life and all that.
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:41 am)______________________________________________________________________________
#65 statik Said:
“I want to be as smug as hell”
__________________________________________________
Statik,
Definition of “smug” (mw):
trim or smart in dress
scrupulously clean, neat, or correct
higly self-satisfied
Qustion: Why would owning an EREV and/or BEV provide you more smugness than you already have as apposed to say purchasing a new toaster oven?
___________________________________________________
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:42 am)I’m thinking the Volt would get me to Anna Maria, long before Leaf would. Plus the long uphills
in KY. and TN., there on that I-75, would deplete the Leaf batteries.
Question really becomes, would it be spring back in Michigan, by the time the Leaf finally made it to Anna Maria?
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:43 am)YES! EXACTLY! You said it much better than I was thinking. I love the way that Nissan says it’s got 50,000 people waiting, it’s accessible, it’s not just for early adopters and greenies, yet they only plan to sell 20,000 in year one. Hmmm… I think the Leaf gets the worst looking car on the American market award. Am I wrong? I can’t think of one worse from anybody.
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:52 am)Off Topic, but did anyone note the new Kia “Ray” concept, introduced in Chicago?
A genuine plug-in, travelling 100km (60 mi) on electricity before the motor/gen cuts in.
(It’s a hybrid, as electric and ICE contribute.)
Absolutely drop dead GORGEOUS!
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:58 am)I’m going for more of the ‘new’ definition here, (=
Smugness (adj) Exhibiting or feeling great or offensive satisfaction with oneself or with one’s situation; self-righteously complacent.
I can admit to one of the reasons/benefits of buying a EV as being a little shallow. It is not the first reason for me, but I’m human, I like nice stuff. To me a EV is like a ‘Prius-pride’ x10.
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:01 pm)#22
The Autoweek “But Wait, There’s More” (“BWTM”) page is arguably the funniest thing in automotive journalism. One of their cute ongoing gags is called “Body Doubles”, where they post photos of similar looking people or things. A few weeks ago, they showed a Leaf next to an actual catfish. Nothing too novel to hard core GM-Volt.commers, who mentioned the likeness months ago, but fun to see in a national magazine. +1
BOT, articles like this always remind me of the great Satchel Paige’s famous quote, “Don’t look back, something might be gaining on you.”
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:02 pm)That does bring to mind the “Smug Alert!” episode of South Park and how everyone including George Clooney wanted a Prius.
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:03 pm)______________________________________________________________
Follow up to my #69 comment:
______________
Statik,
Thanks…your #68 post answered my question. I have same reasons but in reverse order of importance. Now that I think of it, “smug” is a great word to assocciate with EREV/BEV…I know I would feel smug owning an EREV/BEV next time gas jumps past $4/gal or can’t get gas like situation they had in Atlanta last year.
______________________________________________________________
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:03 pm)are you sure you’re not looking at MY post where I quoted HIM?
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:05 pm)George now owns a Tesla
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:06 pm)I read an article (sorry I can’t offer the link) about new catalytic converters that have insulation that allows for it to maintain its operating temperature up to 24 hours after the car is turned off. Yes, it doesn’t do the job if the car sits for more than that, but how many of us don’t drive our cars inside of 24 hours?
-1
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:09 pm)The Leaf looks okay in silver. And it may work fine for a good number of people. I think of days when driving 18 miles to go shopping. And end up going from store to store. And then having lunch.
All these miles are fine if you have an oasis charge station at the mall. If not, you’re going to be thinking about range.
The Leaf will be fine for folks with a very structured driving pattern. Sure the extended range Volt costs more. It is far more advanced.
Am I missing the point when thinking a Yaris or Versa or even a Hyundai would be a smarter buy then a Leaf? These are all small vehicles. With 10+ second 0-60 acceleration and spartan interiors.
Why not just buy a Cruze @ 40mpg?
=D~
Chevy Cruze ~ L.A. Auto Show 09′
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:12 pm)I don’t know about everyone else, but the Nissan I owned in the 90′s, and almost everyone else I know who has owned a Nissan car has had electrical problems with it. With this in mind, owning an electric Nissan seems like a bad idea to me…
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:12 pm)Try pressing control and Minus at the same time.
HTH.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:13 pm)I confess…I plus one’d you.
Anyone who says they won’t smile passing by, or going inside a gas station to buy a pack of gum is just a liar.
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:16 pm)My 18 year old son just said, “Go to the dealer and buy a Chevy”. He won’t be changing his mind on this.
=D~
Cruze interior ~ L.A. Auto Show 09′
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:17 pm)Its not Tesla FUD, its Coda FUD.. Siry now works for Coda and that car actually is threatened by a cheap Leaf big time.. that Siry article that motivated Lyles’ is just a big piece of thinly veiled FUD.
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:20 pm)So would you mind sharing which zero emission vehicle you drive now?
Thanks in advance.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:25 pm)I was checking out the LEAF info site and noticed something amusing…their informational 1-800 number is 1-877 NO GAS EV. There’s some smugness for you!
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:26 pm)It looks somewhat similar to the modern Nissan small cars, actually not a bad looking car in person.. but that low angle picture is just horrible.. see a video of the car running on a street to get an idea of what I am saying. Both the car and the batteries are slated to be made in the US, and 100 mile range should be plenty for many people.
+3
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:27 pm)Pure EVs have a place in this world and in this country (USA).
But a niche they will be….at least for now.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:30 pm)These are all great cars and I’ve considered them all, even though most of my friends want BMW’s Cadillacs, Infinities etc. My point though is to eliminate using gas entirely, as soon as I can. To this end Nissan is only selling in areas that have according to Lyle, “The EV Project, where they are putting in public infrastructure: Seattle, Oregon, Tennessee (Knoxville, Nashville and Chattanooga), Phoenix/Tucson, Ariz., and San Diego.” where millions of dollars of charging stations will be installed. Remember also, the Leaf has two charging ports behind that charging door. That will help folks get going faster if level III chargers are available in all the efforts to get charging infrastructure going.
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:31 pm)Looks like you answered your own question.
“=D~”
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:34 pm)hi V=IR #87 …
They are smug alright. Nissan’s Americas chairman Carlos Tavares probably has a home gym AND a multi-juicer at home. Anyone seen the Oxi Clean?
=D~
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:34 pm)Leaf will always only be a 2nd car for people, even if it does deliver the 100 mile/charge range, though I doubt it will especially in winter. Everybody who owns the car will have occasions that requires a trip that will exceed the range….and then what do you do. Leaf owners should provide a growth market for the AAA or the local tow services a few counties over.
I do think GM should give at least a tentative date for nation wide Volt availability and provide an official Volt waiting list. I’d also like to start seeing some tentative options lists posted and color palettes to keep people interested, and allow them to start imagining themselves behind the wheel.
I think it is interesting that Nissan has not announced pricing. Perhaps they are waiting to see how much Volt will cost.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:36 pm)Peace brother..
I dont know where Lyle got that cabin air is used to cool the pack, none of the sources I have seen have that. Many places mention the pack is SEALED. Pictures show the pack sits under the floorboards, not above and in the cabin. In any case I would prefer if the pack was in the cabin, but please keep it sealed.. I dont want to choke to death if a cell ruptures and vents.
I think the pack will be fine without liquid cooling, but not in Phoenix or Death Valley.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:38 pm)I could not disagree more. GM’s been paying the price for years for its shoddy products in the “dark” 80s. If Nissan puts out a disappointing EV it could take years to undo the negative reputation it will have about its EVs.
Early adopters and EV enthusiasts such as yourself will overlook the sins of the first generation, but I don;t think the general public will be so forgiving.
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:42 pm)Have it your way. Small car with limited power and limited range. Passive battery cooling system. Cost about $22.5k after tax credit. Or wait 6 months for the EREV. This is my point. If you must buy this year. Spend $7k less now on a 35mpg-40mpg and trade in on a Volt.
This raises another question. How will a Leaf resell compared to the Volt? Which will be worth more in 5 years?
=D~
BTW: I won’t NEED a new car for at least 5 years. For those who really need a replacement vehicle NOW. I understand the siren’s song of the Leaf.
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:47 pm)I’m saying you have to_go_very_slowly_for those of us that are not as bright as you or Herm.
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:55 pm)Folks,
If the LEAF hits the market as intended, and the car sells in the volumes that we hear about, Nissan is going to have a major problem on their hands down the road.
The LEAF is a simple car to make. Obviously I cannot make one in my garage but any major car manufacturer can make a pure EV. Today, the battery technology is available as are the electric drive motors and the electronic controls. But there is a reason why no one is making a mainstream pure EV car (Tesla and others are niche players). The reason is the limited range which makes it a fairly unreliable transportation appliance. The range that is being advertised is a best case scenario and in practice that range would be significantly less than that. There is no magic there; battery technology is what it is and it has limitations. Temperature in particular affects range significantly. What happens if it is cold outside and I want to turn the heater on? Do I cut my range in half? So the option is to drive but without heat – no thank you very much!
Just look at the mess in which Toyota put itself as a result of a simple accelerator pedal/floor mat problem. I can only imagine the recalls and lawsuits Nissan will face when the people that bought the LEAF will realize that in practice they have much less range than what has been promised. For an electric car, range is a critical variable and determines to a large extent the overall usefulness of the vehicle. If the LEAF does not deliver on the advertised range the lawyers are going to have field day.
Go Volt!
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:55 pm)Trade in? Buy two new cars and expect to get $15,000 back in tax credits? I think I’d better talk to a financial advisor first.
I prefer to buy late model used cars, and if I buy new cars I’ll start with the one that has special incentive sale pricing and spend an afternoon working to get the price down from there. The idea of getting two new “hot commodity cars” and dealing with drive off the lot and 1st year depreciation for both, and the tax credits is making my head spin. In fact you owe me a beer at the 2011 LA auto show for putting me under such stress!!!
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:57 pm)I have NO idea what the battery chemistry is and I don’t really care.
Currently I don’t have the option of turning up the heat outside during winter.
Although my polluting gas burning Volt might just HELP that particular issue! /sarcasm
I don’t know where in the world you live O great and wise Lurker, but the cold reality is the winter chill makes every battery of any sort that I have ever experienced weaker. Yes even the newer cell phone/digital camera batteries.
The last time you need less power is when it’s cold out.
If I WERE to end up with a Leaf (fat chance) I’d end up driving my Land Rover Discovery to work in winter because I couldn’t/wouldn’t trust it to get me home.
FUD?? Maybe, it’s a real concern none the less.
There isn’t a commercial charging station within hundreds of miles of here as far as I know.
So in the polluting race, I’ll pick the nice little modern 1.4 I4 in the Volt over my current 4.0 V8 in my Discovery or 3.1 V6 in my Malibu or my wife’s 2.5 boxer in her Subaru for the commute.
If you have a problem with that then please attempt to screw your head on straight and consider reality for a change.
There likely IS a place that is ideal for BEV’s, the post office delivery van’s as mentioned the other day would be a good example. But for most of us who don’t have a huge fleet of vehicles (The Land Rover is treated as our RV and truck with the utility trailer)
The new car has to replace either the Malibu or the Subaru, either of these cars can cross the country with no real notice in pretty much any weather. (just change the oil and go)
A Leaf would have to stay home incapable of making even a day trip.
/sorry for the nastiness Tag, short sightedness gets under my skin.
Feb 12th, 2010 (12:59 pm)If you can wait until the next Volt Nation. I’ll be happy to buy a pitcher. Call it an extended range beer.
=D~
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:02 pm)Sold!!!!
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:09 pm)Peace it is. Lyle does too much good to want to hunt down the source of the discrepancy.
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:11 pm)No problem. I’m still waiting for Lurker to answer my question as to which zero emission vehicle he/she currently drives – given his/her characterization of the Volt as a gross gas polluting ICE.
It’s just a wee bit unlikely that he/she is going to be swayed from his/her reality (I know *I’m* not).(g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:16 pm)The chemistry of the batteries is known. I received an Email from Nissan on the National Tour (but erased it) and it had a link to extensive FAQs that discussed everything IN DEPTH. If anyone has that Email, posting the link would be helpful.
Here’s a much smaller FAQ, I can’t paste it, but click on “battery” on the top right here:
http://www.nissan-zeroemission.com/EN/FAQ/
It includes:
“Nissan has been focusingon the application of Lithium-ion batteries, used in laptops and cell phones since 1992. The latest laminated Lithium-ion battery employed on Nissan LEAF has up to twice the energy density compared to the conventional type used on Hypermini.”
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:17 pm)I think you’re both correct. The cabin air (60degrees-70degrees) will be probably be exhausted down (and back) through a vent system. So the ‘sealed’ Leaf battery will be effected by the cabin temp air.
Passive temperature control. Unlike the advanced sensor / liquid system of the Volt.
The main difference between the systems being. The Volt battery can be smart phone conditioned, pre-programed (OnStar), or garage plug-in conditioned in extreme temperature environments.
Correct me if I’m wrong. This is my understanding at this time.
=D~
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:19 pm)Peace is good, but surely it’s not Lyle’s responsibility to settle points of fact.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:22 pm)I strongly agree. If any one of the car makers build a piece of junk EV, they are all in trouble.
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:30 pm)Look at the current available EV. The GEM and the THINK are far from perfect. The manufactures used very light (and very breakable) body panels. Great for range. Not great for long term maintenance cost. Some of the switches are less than solid and need to be fiddled with to engage. But still, these are popular and serve a very useful life in local commuting and small load hauling.
=D~
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:33 pm)Hi Lurker,
Just wanted to say that I’m going to do some errands now, so I’ll check for your kind answer right after I get back. I didn’t want you to think that I wasn’t interested. (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
/I’ll be driving my gross polluting ICE
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:34 pm)Amen brother Tag,
Facts are the last things we want getting in the way of a good derogatory blog post.
LJGTVWOTRSTF
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:37 pm)STF? Almost afraid to ask (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:42 pm)just a few clarifications here:
- Nissan said that Leaf’s price would be comparable to Versa’s (~$15000) which means that the price will be under $20000 (not sure if before or after rebate), the “WOW” factor mentioned would suggest that the price will be way under 20000, after all Leaf is just a commuter car without high performance capabilities
- renault has been building EVs for a long time (small volumes…) for sure they know their stuff regarding battery management
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:44 pm)The house looks better than the car.
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:45 pm)ScrewTheFacts
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:46 pm)How many different cars do you think they can afford to build. GM is not a marketing company? You may disagree with their assessment of the market, but I think they intend to sell the car as well as build it.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:48 pm)I wonder is Nissan will offer some type of towing program to get you home when you are out and the battery dies after 50 miles? I wonder if the tow truck will be electric?
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (1:57 pm)At that temperature the difference my friend is that the Volt runs while the Leaf does not. It is that simple.
-1
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:17 pm)I believe that if you don’t precondition the battery pack that you could get a good 10 to 20 miles on it. Won’t leave much power to condition the pack though. If it’s so cold that you can’t condition the pack in 10 to 20 miles, you may have a long walk back. Dress warmly, take some water, snacks, cell phone, flares etc.
-1
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:18 pm)In 2021, after 10 years operating, it would be interesting to take a survey of Volt owners and Leaf owners.
Survey Question: How many times did your vehicle leave you stranded?
What if the results actually came out higher for the Volt than for the Leaf?
/Point being, the Volt is quite a bit more complicated and ventures much further into the realm of unknown mechanical reliability. This could result in the Volt having a higher “stranded” factor than the Leaf — despite “range anxiety” perceptions to the contrary.
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:19 pm)What most articles regarding the Nissan Leaf fail to mention (and only briefly mentioned here with the term “assessment”) is that Nissan plans to carefully screen “applicants” for the Leaf and actually has numerous buyer stipulations with respect to home, garage space, and power availability. So the Leaf will only be sold to qualifying buyers based on that assessment.
Considering this, how can they claim this is “not just a car for early adopters or green addicts”
WOT
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:25 pm)You think GM will not do the same type of screening for Volt owners?
+5
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:33 pm)I know many here currently drive imports. I drive a Honda.
But I just couldn’t resist….
=D~
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:35 pm)OT and speaking of Li Ion batteries in the cold. Note the cost of the nickel zinc replacement batteries also. ( http://green.autoblog.com/2010/02/12/mcgill-university-electric-snowmobile-carries-olympic-torch-into/ )
+3
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:39 pm)Lurker, you obviously have very little mechanical aptitude and/or education.Don’t sweat, there’s more than enough of us here to help educate you.
ALL battery chemistries are negatively affected by low temperatures, especially so from about 0F (-18C) and lower. That’s a fact. Leaf or Volt it doesnt mattr, BOTH will be affected equally given identical battery temps. But it’s how they choose to cope with cold weather that will really make the difference. You don’t have to live in Michigan to have this concern, just look at what’s happening on the eastern seaboard right now.
The battery doesn’t technically lose state-of-charge, it loses “capacity” with lower temperatures due to a slowing of the chemical reactions that produce electricity. Warm the battery and that capacity returns. So both the Leaf and the Volt will have to create solutions to this problem. If either is plugged in, certainly the on-board charger and thermal management systems will permit maintaining temperature in the cells. (as in NOT letting it drop to low and alter the charge rate to compensate)
But IF both cars were left side by side, unplugged, overnight at -20. On the Leaf it would man a tow job. On the Volt the RE-ICE will be able to fire up and after the appropriate “pre-condition” period,you’ll be able to drive away. (with ICE shutting down as soon as it’s no longer needed, likely once cell temps are above 0F)
So please explain how anyone couldn’t see this as a distinct advantage? (unless of course you live in Florida or SoCal)
WOT
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:41 pm)http://garfwod.250free.com/Volt_DavidBall_LookWhatFollowedMeHome.mp3
=D~
-6
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:45 pm)I want to run on electricity NOT gas.
I have two ways to do that.
1 – Drive a LEAF and go 50 MILES from my house and make it back on electricity.
2 – Drive a VOLT and go 20 MILES from my house and make it back on electricity.
LEAF WINS if you really want to maximize your use of alternative energy source. The Volt is half-ass approach at twice the cost.
As Spock once said: The Volt is Illogical Captain.
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:49 pm)Noel, you may like this site then
http://www.totallylookslike.com (good way to waste a few hours)
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:51 pm)Well, i’ll restate my BEV requirements. 250 mile range, in 0 degree weather, with the heater on, going 70mph, with an 8 hour recharge time, $40k or less. If someone makes that, I will buy it.
-8
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:53 pm)This is a bunch of hypothetical BS to the max, the dumbest thing i have read in a long time.
And…if my aunt was to grow a pair would she be my uncle ?!
+4
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:57 pm)She’d be your nutty uncle.
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:58 pm)Wow, all this chest pounding about the price and capabilities of the Leaf and yet you admit it’s only a “2nd car” option?
So if you have to own 2 vehicles, in order to deal with longer trips and cold weather just HOW does THAT factor into the “value” of the Leaf?
ALMOST A TOTAL WASTE IMO
Sure if you have the income and lifestyle to be able to afford 2 vehicles AND the flexibility to WAIT 16 HOURS for the Leaf to charge (assuming only a standard 120V outlet is available) I guess..
But the facts are (and unlike the Volt) the Leaf really doesn’t really represent ANY significant technology advancement over 10 year old BEVs such as the EV1 or RAV4-EV.
It’s sad that goofs like you feel the need to trump it up into something it’s not!
JMO
WOT
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:02 pm)Negative. Those are the FACTS Jack! Read it and WEEP!
WOT
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:03 pm)“We designed the Volt to be the ONLY car you need to own”. GM Engineering
“Constant exposure results in some contamination”. Mr. Spock
=D~
BTW: Been getting to the gym each day lately. Looks like I’m going again to tread mill off some energy. Be well all.
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:07 pm)The GEM and the THINK are hardly in the public conscience. I wouldn’t count these so strongly.
However, if the LEAF bombs, that could carry over.
Oh, and you misquoted me. I didn’t say those things.
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:08 pm)Thanks? I’m not sure how to take that.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:12 pm)Good luck if you believe the LEAF will get a full 100 miles.
I’ll take the Volt. And what are you going to drive if you want to go 150 miles?
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:18 pm)Yea? and what if you wanted (or NEEDED!) to drive 51 miles from your house? Where are you then? In case you can’t do the math you’ll be stuck on the side of the road 1 mile from your house! Duh!!
But that’s OK most tow trucks now have a 120V generator on board, maybe he’ll let you sit on his lap in the cab while you wait… 16 hours…
LOL
You guys are too funny!
WOT
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:18 pm)All very true up to the limiting of sub zero temps to only FL and CA. Basically it includes the Southeast, most of the eastern seaboard, all of the western seaboard, Luisiana, Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona.
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:20 pm)Who knows? Personally, I think that they’d carefully screen Project Driveway participants to get a very heterogeneous sample, but I have no knowledge of an intent to screen *buyers*. Do you?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:22 pm)I just got this from http://evworld.com and I know that every6body wou8ld want to see it .
EXCLUSIVE: 40 Vancouver electric vehicle enthusiasts test drive pre-production Chevy Volts.
Open Access Article Originally Published: February 08, 2010
VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA — General Motors issued a very special invitation to the Vancouver Electric Vehicle Association last week to drive the two Chevrolet Volts visiting the city for the 2010 Winter Olympics. GM generously offered 40 of the Association’s 210 members a unique opportunity to learn more about the car while it is still in pre-production. The event also allowed GM to get feedback from enthusiasts with years of electric car driving experience.
GM has produced 80 third generation pre-production prototypes, two of which came to the Olympic city. This version of the Volt should be close to the final production car due to roll out of a Detroit facility later this spring. Of the 80 cars, most are used for testing and development purposes, but these two vehicles were finished for public display and will be prominently featured during the Olympic Games over the next few weeks. According to GM officials the first production cars will be available in Washington DC, Detroit and California later this fall. Canada should see our first Volts in showrooms later in 2011.
While in Vancouver, the Volt has special licensing arrangements for use only in designated Olympic lanes, and private roadways, so VEVA’s driving course was limited. However everyone had a chance to sit behind the wheel, glide the glossy centre console shift into drive and punch the accelerator to their satisfaction.
GM has put a lot of practical and innovative engineering into this metamorphosis from internal combustion to electric, even though the Volt still carries a piston engine under the hood. The serial electric design (all electric drive, with on-board gasoline generator to recharge the battery when needed) was chosen to take away the range anxiety that continues to pre-occupy the auto industry. As EV purists, VEVA members weren’t so thrilled with this extra complexity for the car. As a first offering from a major auto company, it’s a step in the right direction. A full electric vehicle is only more and better batteries away.
While our test drive opportunities were somewhat limited, VEVA members rated each of the following aspects of the car with one (needs improvement) to five(excellent) stars:
-1
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:26 pm)Better cheque your spelliing there Statik. Or perhaps lift yourself off the chesterfield to find a proper dictionary. You’re supposed to show your true colour. Get with the programme.
Sorry
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:30 pm)So, you’re either VERY patient, or would you buy a Volt?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:32 pm)No, the BEV would be the primary car. I’d drive it more than my secondary ICE car. Kind of like our gracious host, who’s racking up 15,000 miles a year on his BEV.
I already own 2 vehicles. I’m not adding a car, I’m replacing my ICE car with something that has a plug — the pickup stays around for hauling, towing, long trips.
Wow, two car household with a 220v outlet! Living large, living large. (over 2/3 of the households in the U.S. have 2 cars or more)
Somewhat correct, except for that oil companies (hopefully) won’t scoop up the patent rights to large format Lithium batteries (like they did the NimH) , thus allowing affordable battery options for BEV’s. It’s all about the batteries.
/p.s. If you’re going to yell with the caps, you might want to leave off the “almost” and “imo”. Kind of turns it into a screaming whisper.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:35 pm)Wouldn’t she be his nutty Aunt? (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:35 pm)Agreed! (I wasn’t really trying to make a climate zone statement)
But for the Volt (or ANY EV for that matter) to be successful in North America it MUST have viable solutions for the cold temperature issue.
But given the Volt’s additional source of heat and it’s “active” coolant connection to the battery heat exchange system, the facts are the Volt has far more potential for available solutions than any other PHEV or BEV has. The Prius PHEV doesn’t have “proactive” heating of the high voltage source from ICE either and instead (much like the Leaf) relies solely on heat created by the “smart” charging system.
Leave it unplugged and electric-only mode range is significantly reduced.
FYI- the ~28 mile “cold” all-electric range we keep hearing the trolls harp about was at about freezing temperature and WITHOUT any form of preconditioning heat.
I would call that a success.
WOT
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:36 pm)If a U.S. taxpayer buys both a Leaf and a Volt, is the $7500 tax credit available for both, as in $15000?
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:37 pm)There is more on the Volt if you want to see what they said , I just clipped part of the article for you guys.
You can get the rest of it at http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1815
It is really happening .
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:44 pm)Nissan Cube! Hands down ugly car of all time, not even close.
-2
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:49 pm)…and how do you know there was no preconditioning? More to the point, if it was the cold that eliminated 12 miles of range, then shouldn’t the Volt have commanded some preconditioning?
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:51 pm)Take the private jet of course!
+2
Feb 12th, 2010 (3:52 pm)Well reasoned. Are you actually going to buy a Leaf? I’m only asking because it’d be great if you could continue to drop by here and keep us posted on how you like it. It’s new territory for all of us, so actual “hands-on” info is like GOLD.
Thanks.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:04 pm)It’s not only a good article, but the EV club rated the Volt on several areas on a scale of 1 to 5. I won’t give the scores away, in hopes that people actually read it. (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:11 pm)#24
Alas, too true. +1 They also have the dreaded Carlos Ghosn. As I keep saying, those who sell him short do so at their peril IMHO.
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:13 pm)“Captain Kirk, I shall consider it”–Mr. Spock.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:13 pm)Some more obviousness just hit the fan:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=9818388
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:13 pm)I don’t know. I’m committed to buying something with a plug, but I wouldn’t commit to a specific car until I’ve read independent reviews, and have test driven the vehicle.
Still want to see what Ford comes up with in the Electric focus. It looks better to me (at least in pictures) than the Leaf.
I’d be glad to post a review when that day comes, but it could be a long wait.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:20 pm)It’s called testing…
As you can well imagine the Volt is currently being tested for harware/software performance in numerous cold ambient conditions- both with and without preconditioning, right down to -40C. Type this into your search engine ” GM Kapuskasing ”
I really don’t care if you don’t believe me
WOT
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:27 pm)Thanks! BTW, “waiting” is an activity at which most of us here are pretty well practiced.
Be well,
Tagamet
PS I hear that the Volt will have a plug…
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+3
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:27 pm)One of the unwritten rules of threads here at GM-Volt.com is US-english only spelling. It is so people south of the 49th parallel can understand me.
Many ‘U’s have been saved over the past 6 months.
(True story…I actually debated spelling cheque as you suggested)
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:41 pm)#100
On a brighter note, there was a wonderful interview with kd lang on NPR this AM. Rumor apparently has it that she will sing in some venue at the Olympics. What a voice! It literally put a tear in my eye to her the clips from some of her old songs. All credit to Canada, producer of so many awesome talents. And BTW, I hope that you win the hockey medal too.
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:42 pm)You’ve also saved a ton of apostrophes too – as in your/you’re.(g) Very economical.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:45 pm)Do they play hockey in Canada? (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:47 pm)Canada gets the first test drives? Statik hinted to this a few months ago. Didn’t feel it had a chance. I was wrong.
Here’s a hypothetical: You take your import in for a safety recall. The dealer offers you a Versa or a Leaf as a 24hour loaner. Which do you choose?
Would you lease a Leaf for $2000 down and $500 per month?
=D~
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:49 pm)I don’t know that it’s so much a matter of belief as it is a desire to know where nice specific info like that can be found. I know I appreciated it that you replied with a tip to the source. JMO
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (5:04 pm)hi RA #135 …
I had considered buying a GEM for $8k. To use for very local duty. The event that prevented this was fumbling onto gm volt dot com one day. I read the posts for a few months. Then placed my name on the waiting list offering a $5000 deposit. Think I’m number 10,300 or so on the list. First post was in August about 1 1/2 years ago.
With the price of a new EV being over $20,000. Want to make sure to choose the right one. The Volt fills most of the requirements I am looking for. There are two things that would make it better. The first is more ground clearance. The second is if it were a small SUV. The Leaf falls short for me in many ways.
=D–Volt
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (5:27 pm)I wouldn’t consider the LEAF to have a very strong future for rapid recharging.
High amperage charger + no active thermal management system = unhappy ending
Is it at least possible that Nissan views the LEAF simply as a thunder-stealer from other more capable plans (notably the Volt and Focus EV)? If the LEAF succeeds at this, their buyers could face a future with very little manufacturer support; and fewer electric alternatives.
Hey. I wouldn’t be paranoid if everyone wasn’t out to get me …
Feb 12th, 2010 (5:30 pm)Practice at, yes, but also tired of. I assume this is part of Statik’s first plug-in within EV range of the dealership mantra. I think most of us understand the due diligence of properly engineering and testing a vehicle like the Volt and Leaf. I, personally, am OK waiting for these vehicles with stated release date goals and actual development. It’s the rest of the chaff that has grown tiresome. Let’s see real development and real target dates or I’m not willing to consider it or wait for it. Realisticallty, only the Volt and Leaf seem to qualify by these standards at this point.
LJGTVWOTR! NPNS!
Feb 12th, 2010 (5:31 pm)We were a bit slow to take on hockey in our family, we learned to walk first.
As I recall I was skating before I ran though…
Feb 12th, 2010 (5:31 pm)I was referring to Lyles posts not our comments.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (5:32 pm)Remindes me of the spoof of Ed Begley on the Simpsons. He drove a go-cart sized car powered by his “own sense of self-satisfaction”.
Feb 12th, 2010 (5:39 pm)Perhaps that is why OEM’s that talk about fast charging are referring to the 80% in 20 minutes dream of charging. That last 20%, as it so often is with many things people strive for in life, is a real bear. Another version of the 80 20 rule?
Feb 12th, 2010 (5:46 pm)Thanks Noel!
There will likely be some excellent music during the games.
I’m ‘trying’ to get excited about the Olympics.
Feb 12th, 2010 (5:55 pm)128
LOL Thanks, I needed that! Most excellent. +1 One really could spend a few hours with that. Every one funnier than the one before. It looks like Lady GaGa gets the prize for most appearances. Well deserved IMHO.
Feb 12th, 2010 (5:58 pm)#131
LOL! +1
Feb 12th, 2010 (6:14 pm)#145
+1 to that too. You guys are better than Leno/Letterman with all of the Toyota jokes, LMAO.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (6:18 pm)Access to about half of the US population seems sufficient to make a sufficient potential market for BEV’s but I do agree the Voltec offers a unique advantage over current EV technology in colder climates. I don’t know that this advantage will extend over PHEV’s as well. The Prius, while taking a performance hit, doesn’t appear that it is that much different from what we can expect with the Volt. The advantage over BEV is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the early mass prodcution BEV’s look to be 100 miles range and less (except for the possibility of Tesla’s Model S). These are really only practical for city and suburban use. Buyers in these environments and willing to live with <100 miles of range, may not be concerned by long exposure to cold temps without plug access.
If the 100 mile BEV can be offered at a significantly lower price, there will certainly be a market for both it and EREVs. The more plug-in options, the better. Each has it's merits and belittling one in favour of the other is counter-productive IMO.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (6:43 pm)Ohhhhhhhhh, I am going to have so much fun with this one!!!!! (That naughty devil popped up on my right shoulder again, LOL)
Lurker,
GM has more wisdom about converters than all the other OEM’s combined when it comes to the EREV. The catalytic converter is placed within one foot of the temperature hellfire (without the brimstone) of the combustion chambers which will not only light up the catalyst within thirty five seconds at a starting coolant temperature minus 20 degrees (a standard GM datastream parameter), but, since this regards the single steady state of the fixed load, it is the most extremely controllable
**********************
* on the planet *
**********************
(so your projection is 100% made up and silly!!)
with EREV regarding the trace pollution characteristics, which will be a Near Zero emissions vehicle.
Right here, right now, I recommend to my colleges at the EPA, (whom I provide advisories from time to time regarding processor compromises), that it be EPA exempt **ALL**Voltec vehicles from emissions testing for the ***first five years***, not the first two years, since the OnStar will be watching every revolution with the vigilance of four millionths of a second if it needs to. (That’s the industry scan rate of a Genisys scanner, which is downloaded from GM for the access software. Therefore, I infer that OnStar will also continually examine each combustion stroke in real time if needed, at a rate of four million times a second per the GM access software standard as contained within the Genisys). And, of course as you very well know, all emissions systems are warranted for 80,000 miles.
Pretty cool, huh?
I just love it when GM is right.
Feb 12th, 2010 (6:49 pm)Oh no! You’ve exposed my achilles heel. “You’re” so critical, (=
———-
Sidenote: I’m not sure how the thread has gone this far not mentioning this, (unless I missed it somewhere) but most stories that are now running this news also have this tidbit about pricing:
“For inquiring minds, the battery pack will be included in the purchase price of the LEAF contrary to previous reports and speculation on the subject. Speaking of pricing, a Nissan spokesman claims that the official price of the LEAF — which will also be announced in April — will be close to that of a base model Toyota Prius. Toyota’s Prius currently retails for just under $23,000 in the United States, so that would be an astonishing feat for the Japanese automaker.”
…sounds like a story that has run amuck, but it is what it is, we will find out soon enough
http://www.dailytech.com/Nissan+LEAF+EV+Deliveries+to+Start+in+December+Pricing+Similar+to+Base+Prius/article17680c.htm
(and at about a dozen other sources)
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:03 pm)70mph on the hwy with the heater running (2kw heater) will consume 24kwh, to do that for 3.5 hours you will need a battery pack of 110kwh (assuming 80% DOD).. twice what the Tesla Roadster uses, and you will need a 14kw charger to charge it up in 8 hours (240VAC at 60Amps.. about $12 worth of electricity).. its doable but will probably be a $33k pack once the prices for lithium come down to $300 a kwh. It would be a nice pack for load shifting or energy storage from a windmill.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:07 pm)Well I disagree. The “current” Prius PHEV (pilot) at least does NOT have any sort of engine coolant integration into it’s battery cooling system. Just a cooling fan, like most any other hybrid. So while that might be sufficient to cool the PHEV’s lithium ion batteries when required, it CANNOT actively warm the HV batteries. So if it is plugged in- sure the battery temperature can and will be pre-emptively increased, via the temperature compensated charging system at cold ambients, recovering precious capacity.
However given the same circumstance discussed previously (cars sitting unplugged over night at 0F/-18C) BOTH will have no choice but to fire up ICE. However the Volt’s ability to warm it’s HV source with engine coolant in order to more quickly bring the HV battery up to a safe operational temperature is a clear advantage.
WOT
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:08 pm)don’t lurker sound like john..
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:11 pm)Dude, color can’t cover bad design. That is some serious rationalizing.
-2
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:20 pm)More rationalizing. I’ve seen it at all angles. It’s bad. It’s butt ugly and that’s where the design only starts, at the back end. WTF??! It’s like saying the AMC Pacer or Pontiac Aztek looks pretty good when it’s in silver, on an overcast day, in the dark and viewed precisely 5/8 front view from 8′ up at a distance of 65′.
Feb 12th, 2010 (7:27 pm)You know, I forgot about the Clown Car. I’ll have to rethink my position. I’m not sure which is worse, but you have a point. That’s pretty sad when the two highest contenders for the ugliest is from the same company!!
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:02 pm)Someones got a butt load of money…fell free to send it my way.
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:03 pm)I am a habitual liar. Everything I say is a lie!
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:23 pm)Where have I seen this promise before? Hmmmm….I just cannot remember the name of the car maker who displayed a very cool proto-type, and then transformed it into an everyday look.
Who the heck was that?
http://autos.yahoo.com/auto-shows/autoshow_top_homepage/1296/Kia-Ray-Concept
-2
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:42 pm)You missed it.
Guess being smug and being observant are two different things.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (8:47 pm)Nice acronym! Exactly why I’ll never buy a pure BEV.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:20 pm)I have to agree with Jim I on this one.
BEVs will remain a niche cars for brave souls. EREVs will go mainstream.
It’s cheaper to build a 40-mile EREV than a similar 100-mile BEV. A bigger battery is more expensive than a gas engine.
Maintenance for an EREV is almost nil. A typical driver would only log around 20,000 miles on the gas engine over the life of the car. How much maintenance does a regular gas-engine car need at 20,000 miles?
BEVs have issues with cold weather. EREVs solve this by running the gas engine for the first few minutes of driving until the battery is warm.
And together with cellulosic ethanol, EREVs can completely replace gasoline, and that’s using our existing infrastructure of home electrical outlets and liquid fuel filling stations.
In fact, I consider the combination of EREVs and biofuels to be the only realistic carbon neutral solution. Fast charging a 200-mile BEV SUV in 10 minutes requires a half-megawatt charging connection, which I believe is inherently dangerous. Battery swapping requires manufacturers to agree on a small number of battery sizes and shapes, which will never happen. And changes to the infrastructure always take a huge amount of time – people always underestimate this.
Most pure BEV proponents seem to place a lot of importance on the “pure” part – the fact that there’s zero emissions, zero chance to use fossil fuels, and a simpler engineering design. To me, the “pure” concept went out with Hitler. Most useful things in life are a mixture of multiple design concepts, and I believe that’s a good thing.
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:44 pm)Pretty good rating for a pre production car. Good to hear a very favorable review from the man on the street. Surprised we didn’t hear anything on leg/head room. And first impression. As with the limited access to the under bonnet area. may be that they weren’t allowed to say.
The new EV’s should be reviewed impartially. The Leaf looks better in silver than in blue. We have already discussed the level of performance and battery management of the Leaf. The Vancouver Electric Vehicle Association needs to run a comparison test for us.
=D-Volt
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (9:46 pm)These reasons do not resonate with me.
Rooftop solar systems are starting to make sense, but unless you live in a remote area, these are grid-tied solar systems that sell electricity to the power company during the day and then use electricity from the grid at night. This results in a win-win, where the power company reduces their peak load during the day, and you mainly use the cheaper electricity at night. Adding batteries to a rooftop solar system defeats this whole concept. In fact, I believe all of the solar rebates require a grid-tied system for this reason.
As for eco-smugness, what one person does is fairly meaningless. In order to make a difference ecologically, we need a mainstream alternative. At that point, the smug factor evaporates.
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:10 pm)Thanks for the link.
They’re calling this a PHEV, but with 50 miles AER and a 105 hp electric motor, I would call this an EREV. In any case, it would be strong competition for the Volt.
And again we see the powerful effect of a larger PHEV battery on gas mileage:
“the Ray, according to Kia, delivers 202 mpg“
Too bad it’s just a concept car with no real plans for production.
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:15 pm)Congrats! I envy the daily commitment. While you’re at it, lose a few pounds of mine. (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:21 pm)@WopOnTour
I don’t see what’s the point of always empathizing “range anxiety”. EREVs do have more practicality given the current lack of plug-in infrastructure, and it should be using that to expand the plug-in market by convincing people to buy an EREV instead of an ICE, NOT trying to steal sales from people willing to buy a BEV (which everyone here essentially is saying will be a very small amount of people).
In any case, any stranding incident is likely to be rare and you just call a tow truck if necessary. I can’t imagine a consumer letting it happen more than a couple of times. Once you drive BEV for a while, you start to know the range limits of the car and it really isn’t that big of a deal (and Nissan is attempting to make it easier by having a radius shown on the NAV screen). And Nissan is also installing Level 3 stations that charge 80% in 30 minutes, as well as a bunch of 220V level 2 chargers that do 8hr charging.
On the winter conditions, an air cooled battery in the Leaf is likely to be more susceptible to cold weather than a liquid cooled battery, though I think the pack has enough surface area that in warm weather it should still be able to dissipate heat with air cooling. However, it is still hard to judge temperature performance just by knowing it is air cooled, since cell characteristics matter too. I don’t know if Nissan has this for their battery pack, but a simple solution to your hypothetical situation is to have a battery warmer that keeps the battery at operating temperature when plugged in (or programmable to know when you will need the car so it can start later). If you are parked somewhere overnight, you are likely to have a plug anyways (or else why would you park there).
I think part of the reason why Nissan chose air cooled is because it is likely much cheaper and they expect most people buying the Leaf will rarely see extreme weather conditions (they can control this since they control where they launch the car). If the rumors of ~$30k before tax credit ($23k after) and with battery is true, then the Leaf could become a huge hit.
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:25 pm)That helps put it in perspective for a “southerner” like myself (southerner=south of Canada)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:32 pm)Not if and not just one charging station. Go to:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/02/12/nissan-announces-leaf-purchase-process/
“eTec is installing several chargers along Interstate 10, for example, between Phoenix and Tucson.”
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:36 pm)Amen! Plenty of market room for all.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Feb 12th, 2010 (10:56 pm)Most of my friends have no knowledge of what’s happening with BEVs, EREVs, etc., so when I tell them about the Volt, the first thing they ask is “what happens when the battery runs out?”. In other words, most people still don’t seem to know what the Volt really is, and this is after tons of media and advertising.
Here’s what I think has happened: The average Joe has gotten it into their head that electric cars are not practical, and have therefore sort of tuned out any new info regarding electric cars. No matter what they hear, they’ll just ignore it.
So the attempt to differentiate EREVs from BEVs with the average Joe, thats still very much an ongoing battle. Once the average Joe understands that there is no down side with an EREV, once this really sinks in, then EREV demand will explode.
If the rumors of ~$33k before tax credit ($26k after tax credit) are true, then the Volt will become a huge hit.
According to Lyle (author of this site):
“Though various bloggers quoting GM spokespeople have attempted to refute Mr. Whitacre’s comment to me about the Volt selling in the low 30s, I still stand by his statement. “
http://gm-volt.com/2010/01/27/gm-ceo-ed-whitacre-is-a-strong-fan-of-the-volt/
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:32 pm)Dave G.
My experience when talking to folks about the Volt has been the same as yours – “What happens when the battery is dead” or “But who wants a car that can only go 40 miles”? So I agree that there needs to be an order of magnitude more education about the Volt, BUT I haven’t seen the “ton of information” that has been shared about the Volt already. I know that a lot of the “green” sites provide good info on the Volt, but the traffic at all of those sites combined still equals a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the US driving population. Yes, I’m just guessing about that last statement, but IMHO it’s pretty darn close. JMO.
I think that Gm, at SOME point SOON should start some broader educational efforts for the general public. The first two years’ production is probably already covered by the current demand. Word-of-mouth recommendations will help after the launch. But if they want to get to the point where demand warrants a ramp up of production, increased education will be necessary.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+5
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:34 pm)If I can’t afford/get a Volt, I will definitely be buying Leaf.
Go GM!
Go Nissan!
Go Tesla!
Go Coda!
Go Fisker!
Go (everyone else who is building electric cars)!
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:34 pm)Most media providers are busy chasing ambulances. Or taking pictures of cracks in bridges and roadways. When an off-the-beaten-path subject as EV comes along. They are likely to take a few photos and belittle the limits of using battery power. Even as recent as a month ago a journalist completely dismissed the Volt “because it only goes 40 miles”.
I’ll say it again. Get the Volt into the hands of the car buying public. With a Leaf-like road trip. Or use the many pre production Volt as demo vehicles. These can be distributed 1 in 20 of Chevy dealerships. Giving the buyer a chance to feel Voltec drive.
I bought a new Ford in 1986. A new Honda in 2002. Another new Honda in 2006. The Ford was the best driving car of the three. It just drank too much gasoline. About 20 mpg. With the Volt we are getting both high torque drive and the ability to use very little gasoline.
If I owned a Volt right now. I wouldn’t have used any gasoline AT ALL for the last two weeks. Instead I spent a ten and two twenties.
=D-Volt
Feb 13th, 2010 (12:09 am)Even if the folks from GM are only checking here occasionally, *surely* they have heard this plea from several of us. I’d again add a Project Driveway that would *also* help discover some of the preproduction ghosts in this bleeding edge technology. Why wait until actual BUYERS experience the problems???
GM only gets one chance to get this right.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 13th, 2010 (12:21 am)Leaf appeared at the end of Nissan commercials during the Winter Olympics coverage. It showed only the access hatch for the plugs, and the view of the front. It appears to have LED headlights.
A GM commercial during the coverage did not include the Volt.
Feb 13th, 2010 (12:37 am)It’s tough to second guess what GM’s strategy with the Volt is (assuming that it has one). Sometimes they question whether there will be demand for it and other behavior seems to evidence a fear that demand is already too great – like the omission of the Volt in a high profile ad. Sigh. I guess we’ll see how it plays out sometime soon.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 13th, 2010 (12:45 am)I’m going to turn in “early” tonight. I was on here until after 5 AM this morning and back here ~9:30 AM! Sick, sick, sick (lol).
See you all later.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 13th, 2010 (1:03 am)Yeah.. there needs to be a lot of advances (for me).
(if only Eestor were real)
+1
Feb 13th, 2010 (1:05 am)Oh, definately a Volt. The range extender solves all of my problems.
Feb 13th, 2010 (1:27 am)I understand Statik – when in Rome do as the Roumans do. But dont think that by shaving a few U’s you’ll be “understood”. You’ve got a great writing style but I think you’re intuition on the automotive industry is way past the average person’s “understanding”. That’s why you’re insights are so popular here.
Feb 13th, 2010 (1:39 am)Not quite following you here.
The Volt travels 40 miles EPA highway on 8 kWh of usable battery. Thats 5 miles/kWh. So 70 miles would require 14 kWh.
The heater is probably less than 1kW average to maintain cabin temperature, so that’s 15kW for 1 hour of driving at 70 mph. At that rate, you would need 54 kWh of usable energy to travel 250 miles. Assuming 80% depth of discharge, that would be 67 total kWh.
At today’s prices, a battery pack that size would cost $34K. By 2020, that battery pack will cost $8400.
As a point of comparison, the Volt’s battery pack costs around $8000 today, and will cost around $2000 in 2020. A gas engine generator costs a car maker around $2000, including the radiator and exhaust system. So by 2020, an EREV-40 will still cost around $4400 less than a comparable BEV-250.
+1
Feb 13th, 2010 (4:24 am)Shouldn’t you be trying to convince people that ALL electric cars/plug-ins make sense, rather than stepping on BEVs to boost the EREV? EREVs already have practicality on its side, it should be able to stand on its own merits. BEVs have their limitations, so it is already harder to convince someone to get one, and the constant emphasis on “range anxiety” by EREV fans really doesn’t help. I can understand hydrogen or more traditional ICE fans doing so (“range anxiety” is a common FUD tactic among many to discourage the use of BEVs), but I can’t see any good reason for EREV fans to do so, because we are essentially heading toward the same goal of electrification.
Before GM invented the EREV term, the Volt was called a serial plug-in hybrid. GM made a conscious choice to associate Volt with BEVs and calling it an “electric car” (which apparently immediately translates to BEV to any layperson) to tap into a renewed interest in EVs at the time. I’ve gotten over the Volt being called an EREV rather than a PHEV, but EREV terminology apparently still confuses general consumers if what you say is true. Given this, it is GM’s responsibility to make it clear the Volt is 40 miles AER and 300 miles extended. If need be, advertise the total 300 (340?) mile range more prominently, and then mention the 40 mile AER.
Feb 13th, 2010 (6:19 am)Yes that is true but the original desire was for a car doing a constant 70mph on the hwy, the Volt will get 40 miles of range using the EPA hwy cycle.. that cycle averages 48mph with several stops.. it is known that a Volt sized BEV at 70mph consumes 22kw (50kw to do 100mph BTW).. that works out to 3.18 miles/kwh at a steady 70mph. 1kw for the heater is probably enough but I was being generous for the heat/lights/stereo and so on.
Feb 13th, 2010 (6:31 am)We are almost there, the LiFe cells from China are selling at $250 per kwh now.. I think that size pack will be popular for light duty pickup trucks/SUVs so you will eventually get your desired long range BEV.
Feb 13th, 2010 (7:00 am)Nissan LEAF = NO GAS! I’m just soooo tired of playing the ever changing gas pricing game! For me and probably others, a 100 mile range is great! If I go on a road trip, I’ll rent a gas car!
BRING IT NISSAN!
GO EV !!!!
Feb 13th, 2010 (11:28 am)Statik and other first mass produced EV with decent range and price,
Have you looked at Ford’s Transit Connect EV? They aren’t marketing it as a consumer vehicle but it appears to be a highly practical city runabout with highway capability. Plenty of room for the family and “stuff”, 28KWh of battery, yet still not oversized so range is OK. They are only planning 1K/yr at this point but seems like a good all-around BEV for those that can live with the range. Certainly not going to win any beauty contests but neither will any minivan.
Feb 13th, 2010 (4:22 pm)Looks like Lightning McQueens stupid brother!! Just needs eyes on the windshield, has the smile and all!!!
Feb 14th, 2010 (11:45 am)After 4 model years, fast approaching 5, the Altima Hybrid still hasn’t seen a national release. My comfort with Nissan as a supplier of advanced Hybrid/EV tech is not high.
Feb 14th, 2010 (11:34 pm)Am i the only person wondering why GM can’t make something quick & interesting and play it 10 times a day on spike tv, fox news, cnn, espn, and fox?
Feb 15th, 2010 (1:04 am)One of the best things about this site(props Lyle) is the amount of legit’ technological information on the Volt. I feel very comfortable buying what I understand and I understand the Volt. The Leaf is very difficult to learn about. There silence on their technology is definately a minus. For instance: What if I’m driving on a hot black highway? What about snow? Salt?, etc…. we just can’t find out because it’s not easily found info. I’d certainly advise not being early in line for a Leaf. I’d like one but would rather see the price comparison to a Volt. Also I feel like I can buy the first Volt in my town and not feel like I’m rolling the dice. A Leaf? Unforunately no, I’d rather watch someone else own it for a year.