Opel Trixx EV Concept
General Motors is putting its best foot forward with the Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric car.
From their experience with the EV-1, the company has decided a 40 mile pure EV range with a gas range extender is the best solution for mass adoption, allowing the most gas-free driving while at the same time eliminating range anxiety and the need for charging infrastructure.
However, many car companies are choosing to produce pure EVs. Which approach will gain greater public appeal is unknown at this early stage, though the next few years should clarify things.
Thus GM isn’t resting on its heels but is continuing to study a pure EV launch in the US. They have already joint ventured with Indian electric car maker REVA to produce a pure electric Spark for the Indian market this year.
Vice chairman Bob Lutz was reported as saying an electric Volt would be easy to build. “Once you’ve done the Volt, pure electric is trivial,” he said. “You just leave some parts out.”
Pete Savagian, GM’s director of hybrid and EV engineering recently admitted that GM has “been studying (the BEV) internally really intensely.”
“Since we see electrification as the long term evolution of the auto, and there is so much going on in the industry,” he told GM-Volt.com. “We study various electrified vehicle options on an ongoing basis to evaluate the merits of how such a vehicle might perform in a particular market and segment.”
When asked specifically about a US pure EV Chevrolet Marketing director Jim Campbell said “thats not something I have a lot of comment on.”
“Its possible but we haven’t made a commitment on it one way or another,” he said. “Were looking at a whole range of possibilities and that could be a possibility in the future.”
Though vague about the US market, GM’s electric plans for Europe are now more concrete.
In a recent statement on their five-year plan, Opel anounced it would be spending €11 billion to develop advanced technology vehicles. Included would be the launch of ”an extended-range electric vehicle in addition to the Ampera,” and “pure battery-electric vehicles in smaller-size segments.”
Opel President Nick Reilly indicated GM will be unveiling a new green car concept at the Geneva Auto Show next month.
“Using green innovation and alternative propulsion,” Opel told Auto Car the concept “is proof that size and comfort do not need to be sacrificed for a vehicle to be environmentally efficient”.
This entry was posted on Thursday, February 11th, 2010 at 7:22 am and is filed under BEV, Opel, Research, Voltec. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+4
Feb 11th, 2010 (7:24 am)It’s about time!!!
Feb 11th, 2010 (7:25 am)[quote]Vice chairman Bob Lutz was reported as saying an electric Volt would be easy to build. “Once you’ve done the Volt, pure electric is trivial,” he said. “You just leave some parts out.” Bob Lutz[/quote]
Where have I heard that before?
And where did they come up with the name Spark?
-SPARKZZ
+6
Feb 11th, 2010 (7:34 am)I guess it makes sense to do this in Geneva. In many ways Europe is much better suited for pure EVs, given the high fuel prices, the practicality of small cars (given the narrow streets) and the shorter driving distances — better suited, that is, until battery tech improves enough to allow EVs that have the size and range that the mass market in the US is looking for.
Regardless, it’s good for GM to have something new to show. It’s been hanging its halo on the Volt for a long time now. Time for something new in order to bolster its claim as the technology leader.
Feb 11th, 2010 (7:35 am)P.S. Just re-read the post: “Opel told Auto Car the concept “is proof that size and comfort do not need to be sacrificed for a vehicle to be environmentally efficient”.
Kinda contradicts the point I was making about small cars being suited for Europe.
I’m intrigued! But I don’t think it will be a pure EV.
+12
Feb 11th, 2010 (7:46 am)For the short term (5-10 years) I don’t see a pure BEV being more than a niche market here in the USA. We are too spread out, the battery range too weak, and the charging takes more than 5 minutes. But that will improve over time.
+3
Feb 11th, 2010 (7:46 am)There’s also a persistent rumor about a Voltec-based Opel SUV or crossover.
+5
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:01 am)I disagree, depending on price, quality and durability, there are millions of people that would purchase a pure BEV just as a second car in this country. And that would take many years to supply that potential market. By the time enough BEVs could be produced to satisfy that market, prices will have come down, batteries improved, and charging infrastructure available making BEVs practially for the majority of the people.
The ideal 2 car situation for most families would be a 40 mile AER EREV and a 100+ mile AER BEV.
The BEV could be used for daily commutes up to 60 miles and the EREV for longer trips.
+3
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:06 am)Voltec + Tahoe/ Suburban/ 1/5 ton Picup = SOLD vehicles!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most Americans will not sacrifice utility for economy….IMHO
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:09 am)Diversification of technology is a given within the electrification of transportation. GM is shrewd to cover all the bases by going for BEV as well as E-REV. The battle for the new auto industry standard has begun, THIS YEAR (e.g. HD-DVD vs. Blu Ray, Plasma vs. LCD, etc.). This battle helps MY bottom line in the end. Let the games begin!
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:10 am)I agree.
There is a market for commuter BEV’s for the 2 car family.
Future “Quick Charging Access” (TEPCO Level 3) would be icing on the cake.
+4
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:10 am)The more, the merrier. There certainly is a segment of our group that has been voicing a strong desire for a pure EV.
I don’t know if the bit about not needing to sacrifice size and comfort is a reference to another new entry, or if it’s a reference to the Volt. The former seems more likely. I guess we’ll need to, er,…, we’ll need to, uh… wait and see.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:13 am)How many people want a pure BEV?
I live in a small beach town near Sanra Barbara. One small Post Office. One McDonalds. Two grocery stores. We’re known for the good surf, the annual Avocado Festival, and safe beaches.
In this small population I know of 10 EV currently being driven in town. One Tesla Roadster. Two converted VW’s. The others are assorted 25mph GEM and Smart vehicles. This list doesn’t include the many found on ranches and condo associations.
The local retirement home has a four seater that they use for the 2 mile ride to the grocery store.
Wonder how the moderately priced freeway ready EV will sell?
=D~
+3
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:29 am)I believe that Nick Reilly also announced that a new Voltec vehicle would be introduced at the Geneva Auto Show.
For some interesting tidbits, I would suggest visiting the Opel website:
http://media.opel.com/media/intl/en/news.brand_opel.html
Click on the “Videos” tab, then click on “Environmental” on the menu to the left.
There are several good videos here. One is on how the Ampera works. It is an animated video, but gives an excellent discussion on how E-REV works, and how it can be used everyday.
Another video on the design of the Ampera states that they will use tranparent wheel covers (probably for improved aero), but the wheels will still give a distinctive look (note: one video in German, one in English, look for the flag in the upper corner of the video).
The two other videos of interest feature our old friend Frank Weber.
In one he states that there are about 50 pre-production Amperas being tested now. He also states that everything is on schedule for the Volt launch and Ampera’s launch in the 2nd half of 2011.
Another video of interest is on the next page (videos 11-20) with Frank Weber at the Geneva Auto Show last year.
The interesting note is the focus on one car that does everything. Here in the US, we are not so concerned, as the average household has 2.4 cars, or some silly number like that.
The point is that we in the US have access to more than most in Europe. So the idea of having a standard car or hybrid, and a BEV as well is not out of place.
However, in Europe, gas, housing, automobile ownership, etc. is typically more expensive. From what I recall years ago when I worked overseas, many Europeans did not own automobiles until they were middle aged and had a stronger financial position.
Therefore, the idea of having two or more cars (an ICE driven and BEV), is simply not something the average Joe can afford (not to mention find parking for). So the Volt, with its electric drive for 60 km, saves a great deal of money versus expensive gasoline, yet still allows the family to have a car that they can take to the beach on the weekend. Voltec may be an ideal solution for the typical European owner.
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:29 am)BTW: There are 47,000 McDonalds in the U.S.A.
The USPS currently uses 260,000 vehicles.
=D~
+5
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:33 am)I agree, except that I see the EREV as a longer term solution.
Cellulosic ethanol is already real, and can replace up to 35% of our current gas consumption without any affect on food supply. EREVs replace around 80% of gas consumption. Together thats 115%, more than enough to totally replace gasoline, and all using our current infrastructure of home electrical outlets and liquid fuel filling stations.
So it seems to me that the pure BEV is a solution in search of a problem.
And I’m not at all sure a pure BEV solution will ever work out. Fast charging a 200-mile BEV SUV in 10 minutes requires over a half-million watts, which I believe is inherently dangerous. Battery swapping requires the industry to agree on just a few battery sizes and shapes, which I don’t believe will ever happen. And on top of all that, changes to the infrastructure take a long, long time to happen. People always underestimate this.
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:36 am)Q: How many people want a pure BEV?
A: When the next oil price shock hits, I think a number of people will soon realize a 100 mile range BEV will fill a lot of their needs.
The THINK City will be built less than 10 miles from me in Elkhart, Indiana (when they get geared up). Most of the vehicles will initially be shipped to the west coast. I’d like to buy one now!
A “Quick Charge” infrastructure will make a lot of believers.
+3
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:40 am)Before pure EV’s transistion from niche to mainstream:
1) battery costs need to come down (or fuel prices go up)
2) range anxiety needs to be solved (either by longer range batteries, quick charging, or whatever)
3) the battery’s resistance to cold/heat needs to be improved (when not plugged in).
Yes, pure BEV’s would work for a second car for some people, but not if the price is over $40K. It will still remain niche until price and the above issues are solved.
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:42 am)Most Eurpoeans live in multi-family dwellings. Garages and driveways are much less common. So where are they going to plug-in?
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:57 am)Same place they park their cars for 90+% of the day, probably on-the-street parking. Chargers will pop up overnight as the demand increases.
Before that happens the small supply of BEVs in Europe will be soaked up by those owners with private garages.
The ultimate solution will be wireless power transfer placed where cars are parked… even more ultimate will be bi-directional wireless power transfer used to buffer all those european windmills.
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:57 am)EREV’s are destined to the scrap heap of history – right after I get my flying car that was promised us back in the 50′s…
Seriously though EREV’s will disappear eventually, the question is, “when is eventually?” I see pure electric winning out when the battery technology, energy production and electric grid can support it. Until then pure electrics will be a niche market, perhaps a rather large niche but a niche just the same. So EREV’s will rule for at least 20 – 30 years perhaps longer. While battery tech could advance faster than that where would the ability to charge all those high capacity, quick charging batteries come from? That would either mean more generating and grid capacity or some means of localized electricity storage that would be recharged at night and used to recharge these new batteries during the day when everyone wants a “fill up”. The recharging problem is a bigger issue then the battery when it comes to pure electrics. EREV has none of those problems.
But right now there is room for all. So party on!
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:58 am)When Bob says that for BEV’s all you essentially have to do is leave parts out, you are leaving ***LOTS*** of very expensive parts out.
The trade-back in the design of a Luxury BEV is to be able to do lots of other really nice things, as to size, interior appointments, range, durability, and on and on.
Going back to when I had started my auto servicing business here in Austin, and, reviewing how many service orders had very low annual miles, I find that at least 8 percent of those 500 or so customers (a tiny sample size of the million or so vehicles in this area) would immediately fit into a very high quality GM BEV.
These are in the range of 8,000 to 11,000 annual mile drivers, which, for Texas driving distances, would be a strong baseline market potential inferred for this sample size of ~500 at about 40 strong potential BEV customers (for this very small sample size). The Austin area is perfect mix of a destination-dense metropolitan downtown Austin, merging outward to a 15 mile suburbia-residential set of averaged distances.
Three trips per day with the AC on high in the afternoon and evening, and, you may be calling for something like a 175 AER pack (@ 70% dod) for the 65 mph speeds at 55% of the time at maximum usage. (The much slower speeds in the morning commute, and, no or very little A/C in the morning commute at a Summertime maximum outside ambient of 82 degrees.)
However, “Casually placed” 220 volt GFCI outlets (without charging costs associated) would be easy to install, and, attract these drivers as customers where there is a longer term business transaction occuring such as at barber shops, etc. And, of course, when at work, part of a compensation package could be to plug in all day at 120 volts. (120 volt casually-placed and locked duplex outlets would **not** be an expensive thing to do. (“Golden handcuffs” for employee retention? LOL)).
I think GM BEV’s would be a really exciting development, and, I’d bet GM is farther along here than most people might be able to guess.
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:00 am)Has anyone seen the recent piece from Car & Driver about the Tesla’s lackluster review, along with Tesla’s response, and Car & Driver’s response to Tesla?
It’s an interesting back-and-forth. Regardless of who’s right, it does outline that BEV’s ultimately will continue to have some amount of range anxiety, until you can drive all day on one without having to stop and charge. Hence, I think the Volt still prevails.
It’s easy to hear “100 mile range” and think you’ll get 100 miles, but when’s the last time anyone’s car consistently got the EPA rated MPG? My Civic does sometimes, but winter and other conditions drag it down considerably. Same is true for any BEV, except that they’re not a few gallons of gasoline away from getting back on the road if the battery gets too low. That’s where the Volt will be the preferred vehicle until BEV’s have eliminated the whole range issue.
Unfortunately for BEV’s, the overall market doesn’t want to worry about range when they purchase a vehicle, though environmentally/politically conscious people might be willing to pay attention. But that is good news for the Volt, it satisfies all camps
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:02 am)I’m just a GD Yank, so I don’t profess to have the answer, but I would imagine the plugs will come to the common parking area. Here we go with the infrastructure debate again.
http://media.opel.com/content/media/intl/en/news/news_detail.brand_opel.html/content/Pages/news/intl/en/2010/OPEL/02_04_Ampera
BTW, Jean-Charles Jacquemin will be the authority on this, and has posted updates on the above conference in the forum section.
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:14 am)I’d prefer the still in developement Think Ox myself. Be interesting how it holds up to say the Nissan Leaf in cost & quality? For now both are vaporware. Energy independence must be the rallying cry for all these. In view of the Global Warming debacle , false & corrupt voodu Scientists (quacks) & its political under hinge. Most people are becomming very sceptacle about either global warming (have you seen Washington DC lately) or “climate change” but Energy Independence is something is a rallying cry most can get behind, especially if it leads to less boots in the sand & a reduction of the National debt. Don’t fool yourself about a peace dividend , the US is so far in debt, even if we eliminated the department of defence completely it would not be paid off in most our lifetimes. Congress is like an addict trying to quit when it comes to spending money, they just can’t say no.
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:30 am)Turn your car into a BEV simulator:
Every day when you start out, zero the trip meter on your car. At the end of the day, note how many miles you travelled. If it’s less than X miles, then you could have used a BEV with a real world range greater than X.
Opportunity charging — if you have access to opportunity charging, your max daily range will be approximately X + 5miles/hour at opportunity spot for 110v outlet, or X + 10 miles/hour at 220v outlet to max recharge level.
Example:
Let’s say you’re simulating a Nissan Leaf. Let’s call the real world range 70 miles. If 5 days a week you drive to work (20 miles each way) and have access to 110v charging at work, where the car is parked for an 8 hour work day, then total daily range for work days will be about 90 miles (4 hours on 110v will add the 20 miles back into my car for the 70 maximum).
/ If you’re a person who needs more than 90 miles range M-F, then the Leaf will not work for your weekday commuter/errand runner.
// I’ve played around with this for a couple months. Most days are under 25 miles. The furthest I’ve gone was 75 miles, weekends included.
+3
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:35 am)Off topic.
Yesterday here in Milford we had 8″ to 10″ of snow (not real deep). For the first time I saw a Volt in the snow. It was going fine just like any other car. It was not a cold day in the teens maybe. The volt has been running around on much colder days. The Volt took off good from a stop in the snow no problem.
I know there is not much new here but I thought some of you might like to know about the Volt in the snow. I would have taken photo but I can never get them to work on here.
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:35 am)Many Americans can afford the utility they desire.
Many Americans just need affordable transportation.
Thats where the BEV with a leased battery could be a big winner. Families with 2 cars would certainly be interested in a BEV that costs equal to or less a comparable ICE as long as the Leased battery + electricity is equal to or less what they were paying for gas.
That the 18,000 for the BEV after credit.
Monthly lease for battery $150.
Drive 1800 miles AER a month for $30 electricity (much less with night rates). So montly $180 comparable ICE at $4 gallon could purchase 60 gallons and at 30mpg at a monthly cost of $240.
Within a few years BEVs will cost less than a comparable ICE if you lease the battery. Most folks on this thread have said they don’t like this concept, but for budget minded folks, saving money at purchase time and saving money every month and being safe from gas spikes will be a huge plus.
GM is smart to get going on BEVs.
The EREV Volt and a GM BEV will be a great team sitting in millions of 2 car garages and charging over night.
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:42 am)BEVs certainly have their place even now for the right person but EREVs are the right vehicle for this point in time for the mainstream as soon as the price is right, JMO. It only makes sense though for GM to prepare for the market when its ready for BEVs.
BTW, inspired by Mike-O-Matic’s hilarious YMMVSMTYBE (Your Mileage May Vary So Much That Your Brain Explodes), LOL, I put together an excel to help calculate fuel costs for driving an EREV/PHEV based on your individual driving habits. You can plug in various variables to suit your situation or what if scenarios. It also provides a comparison to 2 other ICE/hybrid vehicles. I hope you find it useful. (It also tells you your customized, infamous “MPG”, i.e. 230 MPG
)
Disclaimer: Its new and not thoroughly tested so there are no guarantees it is bug free but its safe to use.
http://en.swoopshare.com/file/6201bf9232d45309353ee22d9a4ad5a6/Your+Mileage+May+Vary.xls.html
Have a good day everyone!
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:43 am)#1 Both will occur soon. Regarding oil, watch what happens when Israel deals with Iran.
#2 Quick charging will be a key. There is a standard now from Japan.
#3 EnerDel’s pack for the THINK City is very tolerent of the cold.
I expect the THINK City (built in the US) will come in just above $20K after the $7500 Tax Rebate. Note: I’ve read it will have a 50 kW motor, capable of around 75 MPH. Note…EnerDel cells and pack were designed from the ground up for high current / quick charging. Add a 15 minute quick charging connector….I’m sold.
110 mile range……I’m happy with that.
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:48 am)I think pure BEVs already are cheaper than ICES. For now with the Federal Credits, and in the future when battery prices come down.
As I said in #27. Leasing the battery for BEVs is the way to go. Nissan has it right. Consumers can save when they buy the car, they can save every month on gas, and they will have a predictable expense and be safe from gas spikes.
BEVs make sense for virtually everyone I know. 2 car families, where one car can drive regulary 60 miles a day.
For BEVS CHARGING at work makes me nervous because what if there is a power failure and people can’t make it home.
If you can charge at work, the EREV makes a lot of sense because most days you can get your return charge at work, but if you don’t get that charge you won’t be stranded.
The BEV makes sense for 2 car families where one car can be driven 60 miles regularly. It also makes sense for one car families that like to live dangerously (danger is my middle name).
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:48 am)Define soon.
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:52 am)I would get a ‘charge’ out if an all-electric Spark! I only drive 2 miles to to work. Then I could save the ’79 for sunny days off.
Sadly, it would not work for the wife… way to small. What GM really needs is an all-electric Orlando (but with a better name like ‘Nomad’) that has a solid 50 AER even under 110 degree days with the A/C and stereo going full blast.
THAT is what my wife really wants!
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:54 am)Dang these iPhone spell checkers!
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:55 am)Really? Im not so sure. You can get an ICE pretty darn cheap.
Problem is there are a lot of people that are dead against leasing anything.
The idea w/the Volt was 40mile AER to cover 80% of driver’s daily commutes. So most shouldn’t have to charge at work (but that would be nice).
This is another inherent problem w/BEV’s. If the power goes out, or someone forgets to plug in the car, or if you run out of juice in the middle of nowhere, you’re screwed. Fast charging, or swapable batteries would be a possible solution.
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (9:57 am)1. Show me a GM BEV.
2. Let me know what the “real” AER is.
3. Tell me how much it costs.
4. Tell me what the warranty is.
Then I would be able to decide it it would be the right second car.
PS: It has to be available in blue……
Feb 11th, 2010 (10:04 am)Predictions…..
Automotive grade (prismatic cell) Lithium-Ion batteries will become a commodity in 5 years.
Another global oil price shock….by July this year (Israel’s impending strike on Iran).
Feb 11th, 2010 (12:05 pm)Maintenance Mode
GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site is currently undergoing scheduled maintenance.
Please try back in a few minutes.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (12:15 pm)Off topic – interesting article from Time via Yahoo! “What went wrong at Toyota” – lessons for any auto mfg:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100211/wl_time/08599196359500;_ylt=As_7bGgpeMPkv7qGebimX9L9xg8F;_ylu=X3oDMTM1ajB1NDc4BGFzc2V0A3RpbWUvMjAxMDAyMTEvMDg1OTkxOTYzNTk1MDAEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwM3BHBvcwM3BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDYW5hbHlzaXN3aGF0
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (12:19 pm)IMO, the single greatest set back with BEVs is heating. There is no efficient way of heating the inside of a BEV electrically without depleting the battery charge drastically. I’m sure Lyle can attest to that with his BEV Mini. I recommend replacing the ICE, GAS Tank, and exhaust system with a small propane heater placed in the engine compartment. The heater could utilize technology similar to that used in outdoor propane heater.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/s_10153_12605_Outdoor+Living_Firepits+%26+Patio+Heaters_Patio+Heaters?psid=60860260&sid=ISx20070515x00001a&OVMTC=Broad&site=&creative=4540699165&OVKEY=gas%20patio%20heater
The heat could then be blown into the car’s interior. The liquid propane tank can be replaced with a full one at any Lowe’s or Home Depot when required. It would be interesting to know what the weight of the Volts – ICE, GAS Tank, and exhaust system are compared to a small propane heater. I think the first company to resolve the BEV heat issue will be the winner.
NPNS!
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (12:23 pm)OMG! What a change, Lyle. Holy s**t!
EDIT: Nevermind. Where did the change go? Oh, I get it.
Database errors, and you decided to go back to the original so you can test the software more. Test, test, test, my friend. Software can be such a pain sometimes.
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (12:24 pm)Nomad?.. thats a great idea.. and why not?
http://www.cartype.com/pages/2519/chevrolet_nomad__2004
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (12:25 pm)I hope the price gets driven down that quick. I think Denise Gray said something like the cost will go down by 1/2 every 10 years (i dont remember the exact quote). Regarding oil costs, I wish the Gov would just lower income taxes and raise gas taxes now, so that we would start reacting to higher prices before a war (or any shortage).
-1
Feb 11th, 2010 (12:46 pm)All I really need is a small Spark for my commuter hooptie. But remember I only want the basics….
No Power Windows
No Power Adjust Seats
No Power Side view mirrors
No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all!!)
No Power Door Locks
No Power Trunk lock
No Radio (Remember that fiasco? – Get an iPod)
No Heated Seats
No OnStar!!!
Back to basics boys!
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge!!!
+5
Feb 11th, 2010 (12:59 pm)I agree with everything except:
I want Power Windows
I want Power Adjust Seats
I want Power Side view mirrors
I want Power Sunroof (Actually a convertible!!!)
I want Power Door Locks
I want Power Trunk lock
I want a Radio (and/or an iPod)
I want Heated Seats
I want OnStar!!!
Embrace technology boys!
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge!!!
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:11 pm)Yesterday’s feature on ATS and today’s EV planning underscore GM’s Savagian comment “so much is going on in the industry”. Indeed, so much in fact it takes daily news reading to keep up. And so much in fact, new car buyers are now or will be very confused. Like what models do what. Maybe the most savvy group of EV buyers are right here on gm-volt.com. I’ll bet the farm few posters would pass a current-events EV model test quiz. (But at the same time certainly the most knowledgeable group of VOLT buyers anywhere.)
Sure Toyota carries the highest sales mantle. But its still GM (not Ford) who carries the U.S. auto industry mantle. That said. GM has to be thinking about a revamping of its line to prevent buyer EV confusion and thus restore its sales leadership. Its a natural GM makes VOLT & converj the foundation of a whole new line to ID its EVs. In other words, hybrids and EV’s would be broken out say like “Chevrolet Electric” or ‘Cadillac electric’ or maybe ‘GM electric’. Whatever, now buyers have starting point. ICE’s on one side and Electrics on the other.
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:14 pm)lol…
My SQL has issues with high transaction traffic, especially when it’s high connection count with it.
Oracle is outta the question but MS SQL 2008 is a better solution. JMHO
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:17 pm)AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
See, there’s a market for both ends of the spectrum.
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:28 pm)Hey it’s the new again!!!!
-1
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:33 pm)Hmmm… Sounds like Carpinetia. My parents live there. I used to as well from ’85 to ’88. I wouldn’t consider it a cross section of America though. Far from it.
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:41 pm)I’d love to see what all those government workers in the Mid-Atlantic region would do in their all- electric cars during this snowstorm. These vehicles are essentially useless in weather like this.
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:42 pm)Here’s the original Nomad:
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:42 pm)Use a catalytic heater (flameless) using prefilled cartridges of fuel.. is 3800 btu sufficient?.. and by all means insulate the heck out of the car. This one runs for 5.5 hours on a 1lb cartridge.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?id=0059839518566a&navCount=0&podId=0059839&parentId=cat280026&masterpathid=&navAction=jump&catalogCode=IA&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat280026&cmCat=netcon&cm_ven=netcon&cm_cat=&cm_pla=&cm_ite=netcon&rid=2146251080&hasJS=true
+2
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:42 pm)I’m glad you took that as a joke, my friend. That is all it was. lol.
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:44 pm)Why are they essentially useless?
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:44 pm)It became this:
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:51 pm)I was working on a similar reply to tom’s post when the “maintenance” wiped me out. You did a nice job of splitting up the points, but our reasoning is darn near identical!
And yes, leasing the battery is one of the very few “deal breakers” for me and a Volt (and we all know how much I *love* the Volt)!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:51 pm)Did the GM-Volt.com site all of a sudden change to a new look/feel?
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:52 pm)I have an Ultra Stupid Idea to solve this BEV issue!
Drop one of the following devices under the hood…
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail§ion=P2GG&modelname=EU2000i&modelid=EU2000IAN
Less than 20 inches of space used AND use that to generate the juice required for AC and Heat.
Quiet, Quick and cheap solution.
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:54 pm)I wouldn’t buy a BEV right now (like within the next 3 years). I will buy a Volt as soon as I can possibly do the deal.
My second car could be a Volt sans generator. Or just another Volt. Either way, my wife would never go over 40 AER per charge. Ever.
There’s no way either one could be a sub-sub-compact two-door as pictured either. We’re fairly large Americans
. And we need at least 4 seats and 4 doors to work with our family’s needs.
Ideally, I would have 2 Volts and some kind of pickup (to be determined) as my fleet. The second Volt could be a BEV easily even with ‘only’ 40 miles AER.
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:58 pm)I hope Lyle gets the new template/format working. I kinda liked it.
Feb 11th, 2010 (1:59 pm)I’m having problems posting anything ever since. Sometimes it looks like it causes error comments between the past comments?
Test, test, test.
Tagamet
EDIT: Sheeesh, THIS worked?
Feb 11th, 2010 (2:08 pm)How about this just as an idea – You have something like a Volt, minus the Genset, and probably more battery capacity, but with a little bit of room left. Room to put a small gas turbine/genset in as a “slide-in”. Because the cost of this would be very high, you would rent it only when you need it for a relatively long trip. Since it is being rented you would pay X per hour of operation. Don’t know what the numbers would be, maybe $75 per hour of operation. The entire package physically would be quite small, probably smaller than the gas tank.
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (2:22 pm)Do we like having to fill our gas tanks?
Do we like our soldiers and tanks in the Middle-East?
Is my next car going to be a pure ICE?
No “Tanks”!
…Sorry, I couldn’t resist
Feb 11th, 2010 (2:23 pm)Love that concept. It seems as though it was a love or hate concept. The folks at Chevy just couldn’t get enough people behind it to pursue it further. It would make a wonderful EV and I would want one for sure! The fact that it is a small two door wagon baffles four door, SUV America though, so ainagunnahappen.
Feb 11th, 2010 (2:34 pm)Shortly, before long, presently….
I know what you mean, they are all “interpretable” – unquantifiable. We need something like “within a year” or “this week”.
Be well,
Tagamet
Be well,
Tagamet
Edit: HUH? I hit post and the format changed?
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 11th, 2010 (2:34 pm)Building BEVs is a “tankless” job!
OK, I’ll stop now, LOL
Feb 11th, 2010 (2:45 pm)Off Topic Question:
for you GM Engineers:
I was listening to a description of Toyota’s regenerative braking problems. That “the system becomes confused when switching from power mode to braking mode…”
So, instead of switching modes to pick up a little kinetic energy and putting it back in battery using the drive motors, why can’t you just hang a small 5th wheel under the middle of the car that is attached to a full-time generator motor? Something small that you would not notice under the car unless you were looking for it.
I know that would not be 100% efficient. If it were then you would have perpetual motion which is impossible, but wouldn’t that be a greater gain than part time regen braking?
Thoughts?
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (2:46 pm)Is this the new one? It’s going to take a bit to get used to it. I think the old one looked more professional, but that’s just a matter of opinion.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 11th, 2010 (2:50 pm)I’m not an engineer, but it seems to me that your 5th wheel would have to be at least as large as the road wheels to capture the energy.
Stick with the road wheels and the main drive motor windings.
Feb 11th, 2010 (2:51 pm)I’m not an engineer, but since areo was so important to AER, wouldn’t the 5th wheel’s drag lower AER? Just curious.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (2:52 pm)Speaking about generators, could you imagine if GM included outputs on the genset that could power your house?.. it will never happen since I can see some idiot running their Volt in the garage overnight. The liabilities for GM would be horrendous.
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (2:52 pm)Make the 2 rear doors ‘hidden’ in the styling, ala Saturn Coupe with small suicide doors with no external handles of their own.
Feb 11th, 2010 (3:10 pm)Cool idea! with ’55 Chevy styling!
Feb 11th, 2010 (3:11 pm)SURE DID!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 11th, 2010 (3:17 pm)Actually, there is a LOT of talk about V2H (Vehicle to home) and V2G (vehicle to grid). It may be in Gen II or Gen III, but they are definitely looking at it.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 11th, 2010 (3:17 pm)I have to agree I don’t like this new look. But It’s not like I am going to stop reading it.
Feb 11th, 2010 (3:18 pm)I sure could use an EREV or electric minivan or pickup truck that can haul a stack of 4′x8′ sheet goods.
When it comes to my household needs any vehicle that can’t haul sheet goods is competing with the existing Prius, and hopefully the Volt — and it had better have the MPGs to beat the Prius. Anything that CAN haul a 4′x8′ stack of sheet goods would be replacing my Ford Ranger, and only has to beat the Ranger’s 18/25 MPG by a healthy margin.
At the moment, a minivan with fold-flat seats (like the Chrysler stow-and-go system) and a 4′x8′ cargo area and with a Voltec powertrain is sounding like a great machine to put into the “heavy hauler” slot in my driveway. With a few minutes to reconfigure the seats, I could haul stuff for my hobbies, or haul the kid(s).
Also, if the “idle” for Votec works anything like the idle in the Prius, you could fold down the seats after arriving at a campground, and use it as a heated / air conditioned place to camp. All without burning much (any?) fuel or significantly contributing to the wear of the engine.
Feb 11th, 2010 (3:26 pm)It’s already been done with that pesky market-leading hybrid:
http://www.priups.com/riddle/answer-1.htm
The wife won’t let me hack with the Prius just yet since it’s still our primary car, but I think the guy who put up this website has done similar modifications to other hybrids — so he might take a swing at the Volt.
But, beware — this kind of thing isn’t for those who aren’t willing to take their safety around high-powered electronics into their own hands. For instance, the fellow who did the Priups is a an electrical engineer who designs radio stuff for a living, so he’s quite qualified to assess his personal safety when it comes to high voltage electronics.
Feb 11th, 2010 (3:46 pm)Vice chairman Bob Lutz was reported as saying an electric Volt would be easy to build. “Once you’ve done the Volt, pure electric is trivial,” he said. “You just leave some parts out.”
^
When Lutz made a similar comment on the Volt in doing the $30k estimate, we saw the price go up to $40k. Things are never as easy as it seems.
But depending on market acceptance of the Leaf, it might be a good idea for GM to start looking into the BEV market. It may be a bit bigger than people think, esp if BEV prices start going down quicker than EREV prices or automakers use the leasing scheme like Nissan is doing.
Feb 11th, 2010 (3:58 pm)I appreciate the effort to freshen the look of the site. At first glance I thought I’d surfed somewhere else!
But the typeface should be reconsidered, at a minimum. There is too much space between the characters (sorry, I don’t know the technical term for this). It is somewhat uncomfortable to read, to my eyes.
EDIT: It also seems to eat your extra line breaks between the paragraphs. Ouch. That makes formatting a nice readable reply really hard.
Feb 11th, 2010 (4:00 pm)That would be a kickazz selling point to those in the snow swamped eastern states right now that lost power.
Feb 11th, 2010 (4:03 pm)I agree, the posts seem to run together more but maybe we’ll like it once used to it.
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (4:10 pm)I feel like I lost my favorite pair of slippers (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 11th, 2010 (4:30 pm)Idon’tknowwhatyou’retalkingabout.
Feb 11th, 2010 (4:31 pm)Lyle, V3 sounds as good as V2 except for repeating the post number, no big deal. Thank you for maintaining a great site.
All the talk of Nomads brings back alot of memories in our light blue 55 Nomad stationwagon. I was just a kid, but I remember many adventures with my 5 brothers and sister in that car. I saw one just like it at the car museum in Laughlin, NA when my sight was better.
Feb 11th, 2010 (4:33 pm)What about the conversion inefficiencies? The battery heat will need to be retained to keep the battery warm, but if I assume a 90% efficient motor and an 85% efficient controller in a car that uses 8 KWh of energy in 40 miles at 40 miles/hour, that’s 2 KW of heat that is potentially available.
You’d probably need to add heat exchangers to avoid getting an “electric smell” in the car, but if you could capture half the waste heat, it would be like having a 1,000 W hair dryer blowing in the car. Electric seats could supplement on colder days.
For real frigid days, the Volt could use the ICE for heat. A supplemental heater (like the propane heater that you suggest) would be a good option for BEVs in extreme climates.
Feb 11th, 2010 (4:37 pm)Hi Lyle
I used to keep two tabs open to the site on Firefox. One is on the home page, the other is on the current thread. I lined up the home page so that the list of who made the recent posts was showing, and refreshed it regularly. It refreshed quickly and I could use it as a gauge on when to refresh the thread tab (which took a little longer). I don’t think that the new format HAS a homepage list of who made the recent posts. Am I missing it? I know keeping two tabs open may use a little more bandwith, but I still think it’s less than is used by constantly refreshing the thread. I could be wrong on this, so please LMK.
Thanks.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Feb 11th, 2010 (4:41 pm)My Predict-O-Meter says that EREV is not only the correct short term solution vs. BEV, it might be a very long term short term solution, indeed.
My thinking goes something like this. Currently, batteries are expensive and heavy and voluminous and even with the costs associated with the Volt’s battery it makes the car relatively expensive compared to ICE engines.
Point 1: battery costs will favor EREV for a long time
Ok, so let’s say battery costs improve at 10% per year. That doesn’t mean they’re free in 10 years, that means in 10 years they cost about 1/3 of what they do now. That means the EREV will finally cost about the same as an ICE car (assuming that they also greatly simplify the generator in that same timeframe which I think is likely). If, instead you put those battery technology gains into increasing range, then the BEV doesn’t come down in cost and is still expensive compared to ICE and now (then) EREV as well.
Point 2: infrastructure costs favor EREV for a long time
EREV filling infrastructure exists already. There’s enough electrical and liquid energy spigots available to make the EREV pretty much fully utilizable right now. Rate of charge may always be a problem for BEV, so the only solution is to charge them frequently whenever it’s stopped. This implies a relatively massive buildout of charging stations everywhere that cars are parked.
This boils down to a question of is it going to be more expensive to create a liquid biofuel that can feed our liquid fuel infrastructure or build out a new electric charge station infrastructure everyplace that cars park? Given the amount of ‘public’ property controlled by private companies I think the latter will be extremely expensive. Cellulistic ethanol pilot plants are already coming online, now, and so I think have a leg up in this one.
So. It’s a race, then! Can biofuels get cheaper than electric infrastructure before battery prices come down low enough to make BEV cheaper than EREV? If so, then you wind up with the “second best” technical solution, stuck to liquid fuels even after battery costs eventually favor pure BEV.
The world is full of the “second best” technical solutions usually winning. That’s probably point 3.
Feb 11th, 2010 (4:46 pm)By the way, while I was googling around for a decent estimate of battery improvements per year, I spotted this report on lithium ion batteries. I thought it was a good read as an overview of many aspects of lithium ion batteries.
http://www.its.berkeley.edu/sustainabilitycenter/newsandevents/CEFISrelated_anderson.pdf
Feb 11th, 2010 (4:56 pm)It’s that pesky 2nd law of thermodynamics again — what you lose will always be more than what you gain. Now if the wheel popped out only for regen braking then it would sort of make sense, but now at the cost of complexity.
Same thing with having a propeller on the roof of the car to generate electricity full time — what you lose in drag will always be greater than what you gain. If this weren’t the case then perpetual motion machines would be possible.
Toyota’s problems are not to be laughed at, esp. if people are getting injured, but the good news is that they can be rectified with a software update. Hopefully GM is testing the beejeeburs out of the Volt regarding this issue! I know my Astro Van has a tendency to kick in the anti-lock on a wheel under certain weird braking conditions. I believe there was some kind of voluntary recall on it but if you know it can happen it’s not that big a deal. Just don’t freak out when it occurs.
On a related subject, this isn’t going to be popular to say, but I think most “unintended acceleration” events are simply people pressing the wrong pedal and panicking. Seems like it’s always either very old people, or people driving an unfamiliar car. Just IMO.
Feb 11th, 2010 (5:04 pm)Ugh, I had spaces between my “paragraphs” above, but they were all deleted. Makes things hard to read I think…
Feb 11th, 2010 (5:18 pm)Posting seems a little slower. Anyone else notice?
Feb 11th, 2010 (5:32 pm)Well, then my follow up question would be: Would a VOLT roofline covered with solar cells generate more electricity to the battery pack compared to re-gen braking? If so, it would be a lot safer than dealing with software goof-ups… right?
Feb 11th, 2010 (5:35 pm)Yep, I hesitated to ask, but was experiencing that slow down too. I figured the reason Lyle would try a new format was to speed things up. Maybe the traffic is just high (with as much as I’ve been on, you’d think I would have noticed other instances)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 11th, 2010 (5:49 pm)hi DaV8or # 49 …
I agree, Carpinteria isn’t a cross section of America. It’s a cross section of California. We have a huge amount of farming. And also a diverse industrial park.
The news of the incoming wave of electric vehicles is exciting. Manufacturers are underestimating the volume which will be driven by the “newest and coolest” factor.
=D~
Feb 11th, 2010 (6:38 pm)Not by far, solar cells would barely provide enough power to run a small fan. They belong on the roof of your car porch.
Feb 11th, 2010 (6:39 pm)hi CG #93 …
In a tech post of last year. The idea of a solar collector covered roof was discussed. Of course everyone said, “Yes, we love it”. But, when the current solar technology was looked at more closely. We saw that the up front cost wouldn’t be worth the modest gain. The calculated gain was stated as: “During a sunny period. You could park your Volt for 3 days. And return with 1/8th more battery level”.
We’re not quite there yet. I believe the ultimate application will be to have the entire outer surface covered with solar collecting paint.
=D~
Feb 11th, 2010 (7:40 pm)All we need is for J.C. Whitney to sell generators on trailers, and away we go.
Feb 11th, 2010 (7:43 pm)folks in US demand big cars, all kind of gadgets, & many dont have the $$ to buy it …sure there are plenty of rich people who will buy the Volt etc unless prices come down …it will be ICE cars for a while ..european & other countries should be the focus for EV vehicles ..not US ..it is a losing proposition …hope thatGM is paying attention to the woes of Toyota & bring quality to Volt ..they should let the Volt be driven in real life like what the MINI did …until GM brings quality to its products …it will be tuff going ..
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:09 pm)Buick … no.1 …long term reliability JD Powers.. last three years… quality doesn’t get any better than that.
GM has a least recalls and the largest proving grounds in the world… Milford, MI.
The Volt is in the right hands.
GM
Most people where I live have a commute less than 20 miles each way… the Volt is designed for most people’s commute. A all electric Volt would do fine in most areas… the weight loss of taking out the ICE and put the money into more batteries… a easy 100 mile EV. How about a 75 mile EV at a lower sticker.
How about a 50 mile EV that has the ability to add a Hydrogen fuel cell in the future.
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:18 pm)#67
I picked up a recent Motor Trend at the Dr’s office this AM. It had a report on their long term test Honda Insight. They very matter of factly described a very similar sounding sort of “hunting” as it transitioned from regen. to wheel brakes. So I guess it’s not a unique problem to Toyota.
Feb 11th, 2010 (8:44 pm)A solar roof would provide infinitesimal power vs. regen braking. Only real value of solar is to keep the cabin cool so that you don’t load up the AC on startup. But you can achieve the same result with this:
see: http://www.amazon.com/Auto-Cool-Solar-Powered-Car/dp/B000GTHU12/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1265938561&sr=8-1
Feb 11th, 2010 (10:13 pm)Did anyone mention the VOLT COUNTDOWN CLOCK?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Feb 12th, 2010 (2:36 am)Some solar cells would be needed anyway to prevent power drenage and compensate interior ventilation losses. Again the major cost is integration into existing system. Probably Voltec 3 generation will have some solar cells on the roof as standard package.
Feb 12th, 2010 (11:16 am)As others have said so well already… a solar cell on the roof is just not worth the trouble, other than to impress your friends perhaps. I did a quick back-of-envelope calculation and under the best-best-best conditions (Arizona, sunny every day, ignore the cosine/projected area effect, amazingly efficient solar cells) a solar roof would give you one 40-mile charge every 30 days at best. Much better to have the cells on your house or in the backyard.
In theory you could charge your Volt off of a hamster running in an exercise wheel, but you’d better be prepared to wait a long time!
TNSTAAFL — there’s no such thing as a free lunch!
Feb 12th, 2010 (4:02 pm)AND OF COURSE the flaw with my hamster idea above is that you have to feed the little bugger, and the food energy going in is more than the running energy he puts out. Basically the same situation as with hydrogen, the energy you put into cracking water to get it is always more than the energy you get out of it when used. So when people say that hydrogen + fuel cells are the magic answer to our energy needs, they are just proving that they have no clue.
Sorry, rant over. Have a nice V-day.
Feb 13th, 2010 (3:43 pm)Without a leap in battery tehnology, a pure electric is meaningless and a waste of money for 99% of the folks out there. However, the “slippery surgface” ;i ion battery technology invented by MIT and licensed to GM pal A123 supposedly will allow 1) the faster movement of electrons on and off the cell, meaning a lot more power and a very fast recharge capability. The only unansered questions are the charge/depletion limits and the longitivity factor. It is said to be easier (and cheaper) to manufacture than conventional li ions and could be commercialized in the not too distant future (talk is two years). Here we have a battery with the capabilities, but the unknown is cost, both due to unknown charge/depletion stats and longitivity, in addition to production cost of the units themselves. Keep your fingers crossed, because if EEStor fails, they are the only potentially viable technology on the horizon. Those who plump electrics as much out of a religious green fervor as anything else are doing no one any good by making ridiculously positive claims about a BEV technology that currently makes zero sense, no matter how you slice it.