Feb 05

GM Sends Dealers 2011 Model Year Ordering Guide: Includes Volt

 

2010 is well underway, and by the end of the year the first dealer allocations of the Chevrolet Volt should arrive.

GM is gearing up to begin assembly of the first validation build vehicles at the Hamtramck plant scheduled to start next month.  A few hundred of these will be made, in several iterations before the final saleable vehicles begin rolling off the assembly line and headed to showrooms later this year.

Each year GM sends a model year guide to its dealers, and the document shown above just arrived.  According to Leo Karl, owner of Karl Chevrolet in Connecticut, this is “the first sign of VOLT ordering info from Chevrolet.”

Here’s how Leo explains the process and its meaning:

At the beginning and end of each model year, GM provides dealers with a preliminary schedule showing approximate dates when each model will end production for one model year and when production will begin for the next model year. Recently, they provided this information for the 2010 model year product build-out and the 2011 model year start-up. The 2011 model year start-up chart is the FIRST place Chevy Dealers have seen the model ‘VOLT’ listed! Very exciting!

Every month, GM dealers must submit a ‘consensus’ for product. This process is essentially writing a purchase order from the dealer to General Motors outlining how many of each model line of vehicles that dealership sells they are willing to buy from GM in an upcoming month. Typically, consensus is done one month, the orders are submitted the following month, and then production occurs between 4 and 6 weeks out. The attached chart shows that GM is estimating that dealer’s first opportunity to ‘consense’ to VOLT product will be in September 2010. The chart also shows estimated start of production for the 2011 Chevy VOLT is November 1, 2010. However, the chart also shows that GM expects to post each dealers’ final allocation on their website by November 17th and then dealer order submission (DOSP) by November 18th. Those last two dates are contradictory to the November 1st start of production, so there are still questions. Obviously, this is all preliminary – but the great news is that it is in writing – and it simply marks another milestone along the way to seeing the first retail-ready VOLTS on the road!

A word of caution: In most cases, when a new model is introduced, the quantity of orders requested by Dealers in their monthly consensus is far greater than GM’s actual production capability. Currently, this is the case with the 2010 Equinox and to a degree, still exists with the 2010 Camaro. Dealer’s can ask for the product, but GM just can’t produce enough. So after GM gathers all of the dealer consensus numbers from around the country, then they take the actual number of units they plan to produce in the time period covered by that consensus, and they dole those units out like dealing a deck of cards. Once that allocation process is complete, and only then, does a dealer truly know how many orders of each product line they will get. I suspect that with the VOLT, it could be YEARS before GM can produce an amount of vehicles that is greater than the consensus requests they will get from dealers. Like everyone on this site, those Chevy dealers that have kept abreast of the VOLT’s development are anxiously awaiting more details from GM as to how they plan to roll-out the VOLT in terms of distribution. This chart is just one very preliminary piece of information; and it does not in any way change GM’s public statements that the VOLT will be first available in California, Michigan and Washington DC. We are all waiting….

It is also of interest that though the Cruze is expected to debut this year as well, its dates are still TDB.

This entry was posted on Friday, February 5th, 2010 at 7:20 am and is filed under Dealers. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 238


  1. 1
    Herm

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:27 am)

    Cruze date TBD?.. what is the issue?


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    nuclearboy

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:31 am)

    Miller Brothers Chevrolet in Ellicott City, MD tells me that they expect to get some of the initial volts (whatever that means) and they already have people on a waiting list.


  3. 3
    JohnK

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:31 am)

    WOW, it is getting REAL. It almost seems surreal. I just FEEL that more good news is not far down the road (project driveway?)
    Calm down everyone. Naaa. Nevermind.
    LJGTVWOTR


  4. 4
    joe

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:38 am)

    It’s possible the Cruze will come out before expected. I think this is the car GM has to get out ASAP.


  5. 5
    Rally driver Paul

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:48 am)

    I’m ready..

    So anyone else out there actually on any
    dealer’s in house waiting lists?

    :D


  6. 6
    VOLTinME

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:55 am)

    This is great news. I would like to know if there will be some type of reservation system for the Volt. I have doubts when a dealer is ready to take your reservation but nothing formal from GM. Makes me a bit uneasy.


  7. 7
    Voltastic

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:57 am)

    Saw one of the Volts in for the Olympics drive by yesterday. Looks good from my apartment balcony :-)


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    Flaninacupboard

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:00 am)

    But how can it go on their ordering system? It’s just vapourware after all…


  9. 9
    Gsned57

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:13 am)

    I had always thought September 11th would be a fantastic roll out date! It took 9 years but we now have a weapon against foreign oil. Very exciting


  10. 10
    Dave G

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:19 am)

    From the article: I suspect that with the VOLT, it could be YEARS before GM can produce an amount of vehicles that is greater than the consensus requests they will get from dealers.

    Yes.

    I hope GM has a plan to quickly ramp up Volt production…


  11. 11
    Dave K.

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:20 am)

    (click to show comment)


  12. 12
    Dave G

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:25 am)

    Gsned57: I had always thought September 11th would be a fantastic roll out date! It took 9 years but we now have a weapon against foreign oil. Very exciting

    Right!

    Whitacre said they may roll the Volt out early in some places. September 11th would have a lot of significance as the initial roll out date…


  13. 13
    Schmeltz

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:26 am)

    “I suspect that with the VOLT, it could be YEARS before GM can produce an amount of vehicles that is greater than the consensus requests they will get from dealers.”

    Not having enough cars to meet demand would be an excellent problem to have! Awesome to see the Volt slated to be coming in a real time frame like this. Well done, GM.

    Gotta say though about the Cruze, very dissappointed on the release plans for that car. I struggle to understand how GM still doesn’t have a handle on releasing this car to the U.S. market when it is already being sold in China and Europe??? I’m a firm believer in the “measure twice, cut it once” principle, but this is ridiculous. The Cruze will be a volume seller if they can ever get it released. Complaint mode off.


  14. 14
    Dave K.

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:30 am)

    1,350,000,000
    2,700,000
    900,000
    450,000 Volt sold in China

    Correction on post #11. Need to add a zero to the total. That’s a lot of Volts.

    =D~


  15. 15
    FME III

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:30 am)

    Flaninacupboard: But how can it go on their ordering system? It’s just vapourware after all…  (Quote)

    lol. I’d love to see all the trolls who *knew* with great certitude that the Volt was just a PR stunt to come forward and publically confess the error of their ways….


  16. 16
    Van

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:35 am)

    So in September, the chosen dealers in the initial roll out areas will consent to buy from GM “x” number of Volts. Based on this, GM will decide how many Volts to produce between Nov 1 and Nov 14. Then on November 17, GM will publish on the web how many each dealer will get. Then the dealers buy some or all the allocation (DOSP) on November 18. After that the vehicles would be delivered to the dealers, cleaned up and put in the showrooms for sale. So those who live in the right areas will be able to take a test drive around November 25, 2010! Go Volt


  17. 17
    Bryan

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:38 am)

    It is good to know that by we are getting to the point of deploying an army of Volts symbolizing the United States’ technical leadership, determination, and ingenuity; and that serve to fight terrorism every single day.


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    kdawg

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:41 am)

    Guess I’d better start emailing the Chevy dealers around me to see if they are planning to order any Volts.

    (GM should put a webcam up in Hamtramck, so we can watch the progresss and eventually the Volts rolling off the line)


  19. 19
    Dave K.

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:41 am)

    Friday 02/05/10 08:11 EST

    Toyota chief apologizes for global recalls

    TOKYO – Toyota’s president apologized Friday for the massive global recalls over sticking gas pedals as the automaker scrambles to repair a damaged reputation and sliding sales.

    “I offer my apologies for the worries,” he said in Japanese. “Many customers are wondering whether their cars are OK.”

    “Please believe me. We always put customers first,” he said, when asked by a reporter to speak in English.

    __________________________

    Bravo Mr. Toyoda. An honorable and appreciated statement.

    =D~


  20. 20
    Right Lane Cruiser

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:41 am)

    Very exciting but I still expect it will be a very long time before I actually see one on the road here in MN.

    I wonder if someone in MI would be willing to purchase for out of state buyers?


  21. 21
    kdawg

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:43 am)

    FME III: lol. I’d love to see all the trolls who *knew* with great certitude that the Volt was just a PR stunt to come forward and publically confess the error of their ways….

    Isn’t there some bet/wager between Statik and someone here, on if GM would deliver on time? I’m waiting for my beer from Dave K :)


  22. 22
    john1701a

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:46 am)

    FME III: lol. I’d love to see all the trolls who *knew* with great certitude that the Volt was just a PR stunt to come forward and publically confess the error of their ways….

    What about those who said Volt would be built & sell just fine, but in limited quantity, a technology niche similar in marketshare to Two-Mode?


  23. 23
    Dave K.

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:49 am)

    kdawg: if GM would deliver on time? I’m waiting for my beer from Dave K :)

    Hi kdawg #21 …

    Time will tell if someone unaffiliated with GM owns a Volt and has it parked in their garage on November 15th. My guess is early 2011. Lease doesn’t count. And month long demo drive doesn’t count.

    Owns a Volt and has it parked in his or her garage. I accept PayPal.

    =D~


  24. 24
    BillR

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:51 am)

    Let the gouging begin!! (You know it’s going to happen).


  25. 25
    nuclearboy

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:54 am)

    Dave K.: Hi kdawg #21 …

    Time will tell if someone unaffiliated with GM owns a Volt and has it parked in their garage on November 15th. My guess is early 2011. Lease doesn’t count. And month long demo drive doesn’t count.

    Owns a Volt and has it parked in his or her garage. I accept PayPal.

    Dave, I would think you will have to pay. GM, IMO, will produce and sell some on time even if it is hand built few. They will make the deadline most likely.

    10 cars sold and a lot of fan fare is all they need to be in the news.


  26. 26
    James

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:58 am)

    It’s not often I get to post a comment anyone will read due to being a Left-Coaster – since I’m awake at 5:20am I’ll divert from the daily subject matter for a second.

    Seattle needs to be considered for the initial Volt rollout period. Our largest utility, PSE has committed to 2,240 EV charging stations throughout the Puget Sound (Western Washington) region and the Metro Transit authority of Seattle has begun it’s pilot program of installing EV charging stations at major Park and Ride rider lots throught the area. I spotted 4 plug-in Prii at the available charging stations now extant on floors of the SeaTac airport parking garage. On top of that, PSE is committing to 1,000 Nissan Leafs – so Chevy needs representation here in this forward-thinking land of the Toyota Prius!

    http://www.green-energy-news.com/nwslnks/clips1009/oct09006.html

    As a Prius owner who is not thrilled with Toyota’s omission of a backup braking system (mine is pre-2010, phew!), nor the sad “his car had the wrong floormats” treatment we all endured after the California State Trooper and his entire family perished while in a Lexus loaner car – and now the “gee we think we might have a fix” strategy and dodgy, misinformed customer service – I need to ditch the Prius and wave the American flag of advanced technology like a true patriot! And, don’t get me started about the $300 apiece HID headlamps I’ll need to replace just after warranty!!!! (if interested, Google PRIUS HEADLIGHTS).

    Please GM, use me, an avid reader of this site since it’s inception – as a test subject – I’m extremely detail-oriented and want GM to show the foriegn competition the door. Lyle – help me out!

    One more question: I know certain details such as exact gas tank size and software configurations are not set in stone – but why is it that during media test drive videos available online – the battery state-of-charge indicator seems to suggest a common EV mode range of 19 – 28 miles (look at Jay Leno’s test drive – did he use THAT much A/C?). Can anyone tell me if GM will comment on this? We all know our “mileage may vary” but in LA in rather mild, optimum weather conditions-with no headlights and no radio – were those dash indicators indicitive of what we may see in similar weather on flat roads? Mr. Lutz did say some drivers will be surprised at the variance in EV miles, but Leno’s video and a couple others did make me wonder…

    http://www.green-energy-news.com/nwslnks/clips1009/oct09006.html


  27. 27
    YesMan001

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:00 am)

    No guidelines on limiting or forbidding huge dealer markups?


  28. 28
    BillR

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:05 am)

    john1701a:

    FME III:lol. I’d love to see all the trolls who *knew* with great certitudethat the Volt was just a PR stunt to come forward and publicallyconfess the error of their ways….

    What about those who said Volt would be built & sell just fine,but in limited quantity, a technology niche similar in marketshare toTwo-Mode?  

    We want to hear from those trolls too!!


  29. 29
    James

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:15 am)

    As an addendum to my previous query on post #26, I do realize the testers could have been in SPORT mode most of the time, or busy attempting burnouts to impress the chicks. lol

    But seriously – go watch Leno’s test drive and other news outlets’ parking lot laps, and if you look real close, you’ll notice the state-of-charge indicator and it’s coinciding remaining EV mileage number. You can see it’s far less than 40 miles.

    My question is can we realistically expect a 40 mile EV range on level streets in moderate weather in ECON mode? Or would we need to be going downhill in San Diego with a considerable tailwind?

    P.S. I still want one ( Foreign Oil Independence NOW! )


  30. 30
    RonR64

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:24 am)

    YesMan001: No guidelines on limiting or forbidding huge dealer markups?  (Quote)

    I believe in most states that would be illegal for GM to tell a dealer what they can or cannot sell a vehicle for.


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    Loboc

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:33 am)

    James: You can see it’s far less than 40 miles.

    I also noticed that and have a theory. The GM ‘handler’ is resetting the trip odo to hide the true numbers.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:33 am)

    Gsned57: I had always thought September 11th would be a fantastic roll out date!It took 9 years but we now have a weapon against foreign oil.Very exciting  


  33. 33
    JeffB

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:33 am)

    RonR64: I believe in most states that would be illegal for GM to tell a dealer what they can or cannot sell a vehicle for.  (Quote)

    I wonder if a “limited quantity” dealer markup will play well for dealers on the Volt.


  34. 34
    Tagamet

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:35 am)

    Exciting times! Thanks Lyle, for the continued peek behind the curtain.

    I still strongly differ on *any* comments suggesting associating the Volt with 9/11.

    Fingers still crossed for something happening earlier than the official release date for sales to the consumer!

    As the excitement builds, it’s harder and harder to maintain patience, but it seems like we’re hearing something new and promising almost daily now!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  35. 35
    Jim I

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:35 am)

    Rally driver Paul: I’m ready..So anyone else out there actually on anydealer’s in house waiting lists?   (Quote)

    =================================

    I am #1 on the Volt list at Sweeney Chevrolet in Boardman, Ohio. They started the list when I asked them to last July…..

    I may stop by on Monday, to see what they have to say!

    :-)

    PS: GM – I would still like to participate in a Volt Project Driveway!


  36. 36
    Tagamet

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:40 am)

    James: But seriously – go watch Leno’s test drive and other news outlets’ parking lot laps, and if you look real close, you’ll notice the state-of-charge indicator and it’s coinciding remaining EV mileage number. You can see it’s far less than 40 miles.

    My question is can we realistically expect a 40 mile EV range on level streets in moderate weather in ECON mode? Or would we need to be going downhill in San Diego with a considerable tailwind?

    Under-promise, over- deliver. *I* have faith that AER 40 will be met with normal (read average) driving conditions. AER +40 won’t need to be downhill. JMO.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  37. 37
    Loboc

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:40 am)

    Ok, so the dealer says they want one in November. They order it in December. It is built 4 to 6 weeks later (January or February).

    Doesn’t seem like you’ll see one in anyone’s driveway in November 2010.


  38. 38
    Tagamet

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:44 am)

    Loboc: Ok, so the dealer says they want one in November. They order it in December. It is built 4 to 6 weeks later (January or February).Doesn’t seem like you’ll see one in anyone’s driveway in November 2010.  

    And yet there will be Volts coming off the lines SOON! I know *I’m* staying tuned.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  39. 39
    Loboc

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:49 am)

    RonR64: I believe in most states that would be illegal for GM to tell a dealer what they can or cannot sell a vehicle for.  (Quote)

    The manufacturer can only ‘suggest’ the price. (MSRP = Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price.) Since the dealer is basically buying the thing and reselling it, they can mark it up all day and nobody can stop them. (Except maybe bad publicity.)

    Even if you’re a fleet purchaser, it’d be tough to negociate a good deal on something that has 500x more demand than are built.

    It’ll be interesting to see if any hit eBay!


  40. 40
    CorvetteGuy

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:54 am)

    Finally! I have something interesting to do at work today.
    I’ll let you know what I find out when I get there.


  41. 41
    mikeinatl.

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:05 am)

    “Gsned57: I had always thought September 11th would be a fantastic roll out date!It took 9 years but we now have a weapon against foreign oil.Very exciting.”

    As good as this sounds to those of us here on this site, perhaps we should consider the feelings of the thousands of people who lost loved ones on that day. They are still affected and will remain so in some way for the rest of their lives.

    I wouldn’t want Volt to be accused of using the 9/11 tragedy for marketing purposes. We should leave that day for rememberance.

    Now 9/12, THAT would be a day that I would LOVE to see an official introduction! Sort of “OK, we won’t forget what happened, and now HERE is our response!”

    (OK, one of our responses.)


  42. 42
    Blind Guy

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:28 am)

    I have said in the past that direct tax credits can be a great tool for promoting energy independance if they are written very carefully. IMO direct tax credits should be excluded from qualifying vehicles that are sold above MSRP. I say this because we the consumer should benefit not the Dealers with inflated prices. Most of us won’t have a Volt for at least two years unless we get on a dealer list and are willing to pay whatever the Dealer thinks they can get. Maybe GM will select a few lucky people on the Want List to try and keep the rest of us patient until production is ramped up to meet demand. We probably won’t buy a new car until 2012 anywaybut it still makes me angry.


  43. 43
    tom w

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:28 am)

    So whats the timeline look like??

    6-9 months before we really know the answers to the big questions, like:

    - how much will it cost to start out?
    - what is the actual AER for normal city and highway driving?
    - Will GM make incremental improvements with each model year or will they wait till GEN 2 to make major improvements. So many improvements to look forward to, improved batteries, incorporating GM built components like the motor and control components.

    30 months before enough volume exists to actually be able to buy a volt.

    Many reasons to keep coming to this thread for the lastest news for years to come.


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    KUD

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:58 am)

    BillR: Let the gouging begin!!(You know it’s going to happen).  

    That’s what I am afraid of and talked about to the GM Rep. at the DC Auto Show


  45. 45
    KUD

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:03 am)

    Loboc:
    The manufacturer can only ’suggest’ the price. (MSRP = Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price.) Since the dealer is basically buying the thing and reselling it, they can mark it up all day and nobody can stop them. (Except maybe bad publicity.)Even if you’re a fleet purchaser, it’d be tough to negociate a good deal on something that has 500x more demand than are built.It’ll be interesting to see if any hit eBay!  

    There is always the SMART model. Sell them through a money down list. Any orphans are fair game.


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    Noel Park

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:08 am)

    kdawg: (GM should put a webcam up in Hamtramck, so we can watch the progresss and eventually the Volts rolling off the line)

    #18

    Cool idea. +1


  47. 47
    LRGVProVolt

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:08 am)

    #26 James: Seattle needs to be considered for the initial Volt rollout period.

    It seems GM is issuing roll-out locations with each auto show. Stay tuned to the Seattle Auto Show: show dates to be announced in April 2010.

    http://www.seattleautoshow.com/map-hours-tickets.php

    I’ll agree with you; Seattle should be an initial roll-out location. GM should put the Volt wheels on the road in Seattle so that they are visible to everyone along with the Prius and Leaf. Last year the Seattle Auto Show was held on November 5th through 9th. Hopefully, you won’t have to wait that long for the show this year.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Noel Park

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:09 am)

    Dave K.: Bravo Mr. Toyoda. An honorable and appreciated statement.

    #19

    “Sorry doesn’t feed the bulldog.”


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:20 am)

    Dave K.: Population of China = 1.35 billion

    Maybe 1 in 500 will be interested in the Volt = 270,000

    1 in 3 of these will test drive the Volt = 90,000

    1 in 2 of these will buy a Volt = 45,000

    Wonder what Europe, Australia, Canada, USA, and South America will be test driving?

    =D~

    #11

    +1

    You were off the island for awhile, but I got you back on. But just barely, LOL. Play nice, or you will probably go back to -10, LMAO


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    Noel Park

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:23 am)

    BillR: Let the gouging begin!! (You know it’s going to happen).

    #24

    Only if we let it. I vote with my feet. Dealer markup? See ya, bye.

    We have NPNS, how about DMNS?


  51. 51
    LRGVProVolt

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:24 am)

    #26 James: but why is it that during media test drive videos available online – the battery state-of-charge indicator seems to suggest a common EV mode range of 19 – 28 miles (look at Jay Leno’s test drive – did he use THAT much A/C?).

    James,

    It seems that GM doesn’t want to reveal this information yet. In a previous article by Lyle (in a video) it was stated that that reading wasn’t accurate. Just like the exact gas tank size and mpg in CS mode, GM has kept it a secret. IMO, they are doing this to create a buzz about the Volt. This may be part of the marketing scheme. It has been said by Tagamet and others that GM is understating and over delivering on their new vehicles. We should know the answers to these questions in part when EPA announces the certification coming this Spring. GM keeps saving 40 miles AER on average but that actual realized AER of course depends on the drivers habits and the conditions under which the Volt is subjected to.

    Best of luck on being a test driver. :)

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:24 am)

    Bryan: It is good to know that by we are getting to the point of deploying an army of Volts symbolizing the United States’ technical leadership, determination, and ingenuity; and that serve to fight terrorism every single day.  (Quote)

    #17

    serve to fight terrorism, Big Oil, global warming, save our economy. god forbid GM begins to outsource parts for the Volt project once back on their feet. Old habits die hard. But, in the short run it’s a Win, win situation. NPNS

    Ot, aptera site back up and running. Their EV commuter will be a winner next year in the southwest, IMHO. . ..thanks


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:27 am)

    I sense a public relations disaster COULD be brewing.

    GM got bailed out, and they are getting big subsidies from the stimulus package and other tax breaks that came even before the stimulus. The product of those investments will be the Volt, and…GM’s network of dealers is going to sell them to the highest bidders.

    “good thing I bailed out chevy, so they could sell cars I can’t afford!”

    Uncle Sam didn’t bail out Tesla – so they can charge whatever they want. Uncle Sam saved GM – pricing and selling the Volt to manage the public perception is going to take some finesse.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:27 am)

    Noel Park: You were off the island for awhile, but I got you back on. But just barely, LOL. Play nice, or you will probably go back to -10, LMAO

    #51

    Oh c–p, they got you again. Sorry, I already shot my only bullet. It was a fair comment, IMHO, so I dunno whats up with that. Maybe you’ve just got a strong fan club, LOL.

    I would take it as a badge of honor though. I’ve never come up with anything interesting enough to get myself voted “off the island”, so I’m sorta jealous, actually.


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    Dave K.

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:29 am)

    Dave K.: Time will tell if someone unaffiliated with GM owns a Volt and has it parked in their garage on November 15th.

    Why would post #23 get a -5 score? Did I say anything negative about GM? Did I follow up and say that the delivery would be a couple of months late? Does anyone consider there may be conditions outside of the control of GM delivering the final product?

    The Volt is much more technologically top heavy than a Cruze or a Camaro. Or even the plug in Vue for that matter.

    Possible parts delays? Extra testing to ensure a recall-clean vehicle? Government interference for whatever reason?

    If post #23 gets buried with a -10 vote. It says a lot about freedom of speech here at GM volt dot com. It’s an honest opinion. No more and no less. Show that American’s still allow a person to state an honest opinion.

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:32 am)

    Noel Park:
    #24Only if we let it.I vote with my feet.Dealer markup?See ya, bye.We have NPNS, how about DMNS?  

    I totally believe in the principle, but I doubt that the dealers would “feel it” given the expected supply/demand.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:37 am)

    nuclearboy: Dave, I would think you will have to pay. GM, IMO, will produce and sell some on time even if it is hand built few. They will make the deadline most likely.

    You are entitled to your opinion Nuke. Just as I am?

    =D~


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    Tagamet

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:44 am)

    Dave K.: If post #23 gets buried with a -10 vote. It says a lot about freedom of speech here at GM volt dot com. It’s an honest opinion. No more and no less. Show that American’s still allow a person to state an honest opinion.

    This microcosm doesn’t say anything about America in general, but I agree that people have been awfully quick to hand out minuses. I just make it a habit of reading all the posts possible and offsetting negatives that I believe aren’t “earned”. It’s more a statement on human nature – it’s somehow easier to vote something negative than to vote something positive. For example, when I have to call phone support for something and the rep is pleasant, I ask to talk to their supervisor and have something positive put in the rep’s folder. They generally act A) shocked and B) suspicious. More often than not, they (the rep) “listen in” to see if I’m actually complementing them (LOL).
    I guess I’m just suggesting that you don’t sweat the petty stuff. and that folks should help bail out posts they don’t see as deserving a negative vote. JMO.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:45 am)

    I honestly don’t expect a shot at a Volt until Summer of 2012. With just 70,000 being produced in the first 12 to 14 months. And the demand figure probably being between 300,000 to 400,000 now. And the strong chance that the first lot will sell to the richest person who has a college age son or daughter.

    Just being honest. Yes I know, the truth sometimes hurts.

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:51 am)

    #33 JeffB:
    I wonder if a “limited quantity” dealer markup will play well for dealers on the Volt.  

    If GM is going to change the public’s previous adverse opinion of their product name, they need to shore in their dealers.”Service to the Customer” is supposedly Toyota’s number one thyme and their current problem is to fix all of the affected vehicles. That’s the job of their dealerships! GM must also demonstrate to customers that any vehicle they purchase from the GM dealership will get top-notch service. Supply and demand do come into play in any sale on an open market so we are likely to see higher prices than are posted. Service to the Customer should be a mantra of concern to GM. Excessively raising the price will damage GM’s image. Hopefully, the dealers will realize that and not gouge customers.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:52 am)

    Dave K.: I honestly don’t expect a shot at a Volt until Summer of 2012.

    #59

    I think that’s optimistic.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:55 am)

    Last week , a friend of mine who works for a Chevrolet-Cadillac dealer in Ottawa, ON, Canada, assured me that they will be getting a couple of Chevy Volts before November 2010.
    Whow!


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:57 am)

    Noel, I hope you get a shot at one before me. I’ll just keep going to car shows to look at the latest electric vehicles. An EV motorcycle is tempting. Except my Ninja ZX-6 and I are buddies. Couldn’t dump a buddy.

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:58 am)

    Tagamet: I totally believe in the principle, but I doubt that the dealers would “feel it” given the expected supply/demand.

    #56

    I’m sure they won’t “feel it”, but I will. If I paid $”x” thousand over sticker, I would feel like a sucker. Buyer’s remorse would make me want to kick the car every time I went out to the garage. What goes around comes around, sooner or later.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:03 pm)

    kdawg: Guess I’d better start emailing the Chevy dealers around me to see if they are planning to order any Volts.(GM should put a webcam up in Hamtramck, so we can watch the progresss and eventually the Volts rolling off the line)  (Quote)

    Actually a pretty good idea. If Lyle is willing to deputize us (and GM is willing to entertain this) I’m willing to go to the plant and act as his cub reporter to report on progress from time to time.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:03 pm)

    Dave K.: Except my Ninja ZX-6 and I are buddies. Couldn’t dump a buddy.

    #63

    Yeah, don’t do that, whatever you do. I sold my RD400 without buying another bike in advance. My RN wife, who has patched up about 1000 broken SoCal motorcycle riders in 30+ years put her foot down so hard the whole house shook. She lets me get away with so much other stupid s__t that I have never felt tough enough to fight about it. So it’s been several years on 4 wheels. BOOOORING! Old Corvettes and Chevys are fun, but it’s just not the same thing.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:04 pm)

    Hi everyone,

    A bit off topic but someone mentioned this article in the last post & someone in this post mentioned how the VOLT is supposed to showcase Volt’s technology & N.American ingenuity. I know that GM made the VOLT to leapfrog Asian carmakers. So in that sense, this article is not only related to the VOLT but also at more fundamental level, what US (& Canada by extension) is trying to achieve.

    The article at the below link is a most interesting and shocking article!! Please read & feel free to distribute to people you know. Some of the claims in the article might be hard-to-believe but IMHO it’s all true.

    Being born and growing up to my pre-teen years in South Korea, the closest neighbour to Japan, I can attest that much of this is true, especially hard-to-believe stuff about textbooks mentioned in the article as well as the racism that Japanese exhibit towards other races, whatever their colors of skin. A Japanese acquaintance of mine also confirmed some of the more hard-to-believe stuff in the article. While I like Japanese folks as individuals, they scare the crap out of me as a group of people. As I consider myself a Canadian & a North American rather than an Asian (as I grew up during my teenage years here in Canada), I can still read Asian mindset and understand it.

    Though Canadians north of the border are currently worried about “buy American” protectionism (how it’s against free competition, etc.), it makes you wonder after reading this, whether as long as Americans make an exemption for us Canadians, you should go ahead and protect yourselves…and us by extension. I hope all of realize that ultimately, whatever hurts the US, will hurt Canada & as long as we in NA cooperate collectively, whatever benefits the US will benefit Canada.

    http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:07 pm)

    Right Lane Cruiser: Very exciting but I still expect it will be a very long time before I actually see one on the road here in MN.I wonder if someone in MI would be willing to purchase for out of state buyers?  (Quote)

    I suspect that most dealers would sell directly to you. You would probably have to pick it up. But if you manage to snag one before I do I’ll gladly drive it to your doorstep, no charge.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:11 pm)

    Right Lane Cruiser: Very exciting but I still expect it will be a very long time before I actually see one on the road here in MN.I wonder if someone in MI would be willing to purchase for out of state buyers?  (Quote)

    I have one on order from Ohio, but now face the possibility that dealers near me may get cars long before the dealer in Ohio. But the dealers near me seem to be quite clueless so far. Sigh…


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:11 pm)

    Gsned57: I had always thought September 11th would be a fantastic roll out date! It took 9 years but we now have a weapon against foreign oil. Very exciting

    That might be the one thing that would seriously make me reconsider my interest in a Volt. In fact, it would make me rethink my willingness to buy any car from GM. Ever.

    My rational side would still want to support American industry. And reduce my oil usage, but emotionally…No. Just no.

    And there are enough people who feel that way, that it would a huge mistake for GM to do that. It would be a PR disaster.


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    Eugene (in LA)

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:12 pm)

    From the article: This chart is just one very preliminary piece of information; and it does not in any way change GM’s public statements that the VOLT will be first available in California, Michigan and Washington DC. We are all waiting…

    I better start calling Chevrolet dealers in Orange county (California)
    for the waiting list… I prefer dark grey color…


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

    Sam Y: you should go ahead and protect yourselves…and us by extension.

    Thanks for the perspective. I have long held these views too but have never lived in asia as you have.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:19 pm)

    LauraM: the one thing that would seriously make me reconsider

    Well said Laura. But, you must admit that the Volt is a very special car in many ways. The first owners will be enjoying the good life. And for under $40k sticker?

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:22 pm)

    Jim I: =================================I am #1 on the Volt list at Sweeney Chevrolet in Boardman, Ohio. They started the list when I asked them to last July…..I may stop by on Monday, to see what they have to say! PS: GM – I would still like to participate in a Volt Project Driveway!  (Quote)

    I am on a list of a Columbus Ohio dealer (the one that advertized on Ebay). Have money down also, but there will be no markup. Since I live in MI, I’m kind of hoping that I’ll be able to get a Volt here and can cancel the one in Ohio and avoid complications like sales tax to OHio and MI, and warranty issues.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:25 pm)

    Dave K.: You are entitled to your opinion Nuke. Just as I am?

    Of course

    I was just hinting that GM may not want to delay on this since they have been promising Nov 2010 for over 2 years.

    That being the case, GM could always spit out a few Volts to make the date…..


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:33 pm)

    nuclearboy: GM could always spit out a few Volts to make the date…..

    I’m surprised Jay Leno completed his demo drive with: “Go out and test drive one. I think you’ll like it. Pretty cool”

    And not with: “There’s room for a Volt in my garage”.

    ______________________________

    Look how Gold and Crude are getting hit today. Money fleeing Gold and moving to… savings? This may signal that people are organizing their bullets for another run at buying S&P. Would consider getting back in at S&P 960.

    =D~

    2-5-10%20stock%20review.jpg


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:39 pm)

    nuclearboy: GM may not want to delay on this since they have been promising Nov 2010 for over 2 years

    Didn’t want to go there but…

    Nuke, I had just typed out a long list of timing related events from GM’s recent history. I don’t have the heart to post it.

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:44 pm)

    Sam Y: Though Canadians north of the border are currently worried about “buy American” protectionism (how it’s against free competition, etc.), it makes you wonder after reading this, whether as long as Americans make an exemption for us Canadians, you should go ahead and protect yourselves…and us by extension. I hope all of realize that ultimately, whatever hurts the US, will hurt Canada & as long as we in NA cooperate collectively, whatever benefits the US will benefit Canada.

    The article has been posted here before. We do the same thing with corn, which has similar effects on farmers in developing countries. Mostly Mexico. It’s counterproductive both economically and environmentally for us. And it contributes to our national obesity epidemic. And is all around bad for our life expectancy. But the corn lobby is very powerful.

    I believe in protecting our home market. If you look at history, industrial policies, and mercantalist behavior work. It worked for the United States. It worked for Japan. And right now it’s working for Singapore, Taiwan, and China. It has its limits, of course, but it gives a huge advantage in the international stage. And if don’t compete, we’ll wind up as another “developing country.” (I hate that term by the way. Every country should always try to “develop.” And many so called developing countries are actually going backwards.)

    I agree that we need to distinguish between countries as far as protectionism. Trade does not have to be zero sum. If it’s done fairly, it can be win win. Throughout history, trade has made many countries extremely wealthy. Manufacturing benefits from economies of scale. So I would exempt Canada. Most countries in Europe. And even Mexico. Basically, any country that plays fair.

    Every country engages in some degree of protectionism. Including us. But that’s to be expected. The point is the degree of protectionism. And whether or not we’ll benefit in the long run from trading with them under those circumstances. We do not benefit from trading with countries that require technology transfer for access to their markets. Or pay our companies to do their manufacturing there.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (12:48 pm)

    Dave K.: Well said Laura. But, you must admit that the Volt is a very special car in many ways. The first owners will be enjoying the good life. And for under $40k sticker?

    =D~

    Oh. Absolutely. And I want one. But that’s not the point. If GM rolled it out on September 11th, and I felt queasy every time I looked at the car, I’m not sure it would be worth it to me.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:01 pm)

    Dave K.: Why would post #23 get a -5 score? Did I say anything negative about GM?

    Dave, just relax. You opined that the Volt wouldn’t be available for purchase until 2011. I don’t agree but it certainly could happen. As you intimate, whether the Volt shows up Dec 1 or Jan 1 or Feb 1 is not big deal. Plus we all know that if it’s available for purchase it’s not going to be in any real numbers anyway. So for practical purposes you’re probably right.

    Would I give your comment a negative rating? No way. But this is a FAN site, and some fans are more rabid than others. Personally I think you should look at the occasional negative rating as a point of honor. It probably means you’re being realistic rather than optimistic. And a dose of realism here and there is a very good thing!


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:09 pm)

    Thanks Don. I have a linebacker mentality and can be a stiff necked thistle head at times. Definitely on the defensive side of the ball.

    BTW: You have plans at shooting for a first year Volt? Or waiting from feedback from early adopters? No surprise if demand pushes the 2012 sticker a bit higher. Either way, I’m happy. Just want to see the wheels of the Volt on the road.

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:11 pm)

    Tagamet: I guess I’m just suggesting that you don’t sweat the petty stuff. and that folks should help bail out posts they don’t see as deserving a negative vote. JMO.

    #58

    I’m working on it. +1


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:14 pm)

    Dave K.: Nuke, I had just typed out a long list of timing related events from GM’s recent history. I don’t have the heart to post it.

    I would not argue that GM has missed many milestones. I guess since I read this site I like to think that the Volt is important to GM and on this one they may be inclined to go the extra mile and make the date.

    Maybe they don’t really care and will just do what they need to do when they can do it. I just assume, from my read of their continued use of the Nov 10 date, that they will make it by hook or by crook.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:16 pm)

    #67 Sam Y Great article! I read the whole article and could not find anything to dissagree with. I wish our government could stop fighting amongst themselves long enough to make changes in laws to level the field of business. We are after all talking about National Security when it comes down to it.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:17 pm)

    Sam Y: The article at the below link is a most interesting and shocking article!! Please read & feel free to distribute to people you know. Some of the claims in the article might be hard-to-believe but IMHO it’s all true.

    #67

    Too true, IMHO. +1 Two words – Chalmers Johnson.

    Have you heard the tough talk coming out of China the last few days about Taiwan, the Dali Lama, et al? They are going to impose “economic sanctions” on U.S. companies doing business with Taiwan?

    When somebody holds a trillion or two of your debt, they start thinking that they can tell you what to do. Maybe they can! The chickens will come home to roost, sooner or later. I personally am redoubling my efforts to quit buying Chinese products. Japanese too, come to that.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:21 pm)

    LauraM: We do the same thing with corn, which has similar effects on farmers in developing countries. Mostly Mexico. It’s counterproductive both economically and environmentally for us. And it contributes to our national obesity epidemic. And is all around bad for our life expectancy. But the corn lobby is very powerful.

    To clarify–it’s not exactly the same, but it’s similar. Our major agricultural firms work together. Get subsidies from the government, and sell corn cheaply to other countries. (Below the price of production.) The US has a lot of fertile soil, and a lot of advanced agricultural technology, so we have a lot of inherent advantages. We also have more water per capita than most developing countries. (Partially because we’re draining our aquifers.) Also we’re upstream from Mexico, so we’ve appropriated the Colorado river for ourselves. And factory farming is exempt from most environmental regulation.

    I don’t think we deliberately raised prices once we put the competition out of business. But prices are rising as world demand escalates, and we invest in corn based ethanol. So the effect is the same. However, corn is a low value added commodity. Most of the jobs involved are very low paid. And there’s no technology transfer involved. So it’s actually hurting us economically. Although a few people are getting very rich.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:22 pm)

    LauraM: Gsned57: I had always thought September 11th would be a fantastic roll out date! It took 9 years but we now have a weapon against foreign oil. Very exciting

    That might be the one thing that would seriously make me reconsider my interest in a Volt. In fact, it would make me rethink my willingness to buy any car from GM. Ever.

    My rational side would still want to support American industry. And reduce my oil usage, but emotionally…No. Just no.

    And there are enough people who feel that way, that it would a huge mistake for GM to do that. It would be a PR disaster.

    I agree that any company trying to profit on the emotions of 9/11 would be horrible. But as an avid supporter of the Volt and all it means for the country this car has a significant tie to 9/11 for me.

    I’ve got to believe that the Americans working on this car have independence from foreign oil on their minds. I’m probably wrong but I’d “LIKE” to think that some of them are pushing for the September roll out as a 9/11 answer. If GM ever mentions 9/11 publicly it’ll be a PR nightmare but if I were a GM employee and as an American I’d make that my internal goal.

    I can just see how it went down in my mind …. Maximum Bob lands his jet and calls an all hands meeting for the Volt team and says ” I know there’s no amount of money that can get this car out faster and we don’t want to compromise quality, but how bout we make a statement to all those terrorists around the world still going strong because of our oil addiction. Let’s get this car out as our own 9/11 tribute. To support our troops and in our own way help fight this war. Lets get this war fighter out 2 months early for the U.S.A” Then he flies off to Afghanistan to continue his own personal search for Osama Bin Laden…. Eyes open and back to work.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:27 pm)

    kdawg: Guess I’d better start emailing the Chevy dealers around me to see if they are planning to order any Volts.(GM should put a webcam up in Hamtramck, so we can watch the progresss and eventually the Volts rolling off the line)  

    Great webcam idea! +1


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:32 pm)

    Dave K.: Why would post #23 get a -5 score? Did I say anything negative about GM? Did I follow up and say that the delivery would be a couple of months late? Does anyone consider there may be conditions outside of the control of GM delivering the final product?

    The Volt is much more technologically top heavy than a Cruze or a Camaro. Or even the plug in Vue for that matter.

    Possible parts delays? Extra testing to ensure a recall-clean vehicle? Government interference for whatever reason?

    If post #23 gets buried with a -10 vote. It says a lot about freedom of speech here at GM volt dot com. It’s an honest opinion. No more and no less. Show that American’s still allow a person to state an honest opinion.

    =D~

    I think some people use the vote as a shorthand for “I disagree” or “I agree.” Which is fine for positive votes. But for negative ones, not so much. There is a difference between trollish comments and something I disagree with.

    I also try to counter negative votes that I disagree with. Personally, I think the site is a better, more interesting place when not everyone agrees.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:33 pm)

    LauraM:The article has been posted here before. We do the same thing with corn, which has similar effects on farmers in developing countries. Mostly Mexico. It’s counterproductive both economically and environmentally for us. And it contributes to our national obesity epidemic. And is all around bad for our life expectancy. But the corn lobby is very powerful.  (Quote)

    Yes although, Janpan is doing that with what you’d term strategic sectors (no offense to anyone involved in corn industry; I love all kinds of corns myself ^^)

    LauraM: So I would exempt Canada. Most countries in Europe. And even Mexico. Basically, any country that plays fair.   (Quote)

    I second that; if another team is NOT playing fair why should they reap the benefits at our expense? Like you said, all of us protect our own interests to some degree but t


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:36 pm)

    Dave G:
    September 11th would have a lot of significance as the initial roll out date…  

    I wouldn’t connect the Volt with that date at all – don’t put the Volt into the political arena where people take sides. Similarly, I wouldn’t connect the Volt with global warming either – too polarizing of an issue that pisses people off one way or another.

    Keep the message clean and clear and absent of judgment. Just say it uses far less oil and leave it to the listener to find their own reasons as to why that is important. Some undoubtedly will be pleased not to be sending $$ to support some Arab oil shiek; others will be most happy with the freedom from worrying about instability in gasoline pricing.

    Just let the car rest on its own many merits, and leave it to the customer to figure out the hows and whys the Volt will work for them.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:37 pm)

    nuclearboy: …important to GM and on this one they may be inclined to go the extra mile…

    Anybody who doesn’t know what soap tastes like never washed a dog.

    When Fritz Henderson insisted that Volt development be fully funded through GM’s dark hours of last year. He seemed believable. And I wanted to believe him. He talked fiscal responsibility. And the need to do things better than GM had in the recent past. And my favorite, “To listen and to act quickly”.

    Regardless who is right or wrong. We are in the year 2010. The final street version of the Volt is 75+% complete. The cash-in-hand world wide waiting list may be as high as 1/2 million. That’s 200 T batteries a day (365 days per year) for 6.8 years.

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:38 pm)

    I can’t get a Volt early (and at this rate, 2012 is starting to look like a stretch).

    So, I’m not only going to “not sweat the petty stuff,” I’m also not going to pet the sweaty stuff.

    … Is Cap’n Jack here, yet?


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:41 pm)

    stuart22: don’t put the Volt into the political arena where people take sides.

    Not to disagree with you at all concerning the 9/11 date, I do have to point out that the Volt is already in such a political arena, due to “Government Motors.” About all we can do about that is to minimize further damage by not “asking for it.”

    This is also a good reason not to jump on the “Global Warming” bandwagon.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:44 pm)

    LauraM: Personally, I think the site is a better, more interesting place when not everyone agrees.

    I disagree.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:46 pm)

    Sam Y: Yes although, Janpan is doing that with what you’d term strategic sectors (no offense to anyone involved in corn industry; I love all kinds of corns myself ^^)I second that; if another team is NOT playing fair why should they reap the benefits at our expense? Like you said, all of us protect our own interests to some degree but t  (Quote)

    I love all kinds of corn myself ^^)~ lol


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:47 pm)

    nuclearboy: …more interesting place when not everyone agrees.

    More important that everyone agrees? Or that the pedals work?

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:55 pm)

    Dave K.: More important that everyone agrees?

    No,
    I just found it appropriate to disagree since the merits of disagreement were being mentioned.

    Its good to disagree. I disagree… Agreed :)


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (1:59 pm)

    Jackson:
    Not to disagree with you at all concerning the 9/11 date, I do have to point out that the Volt is already in such a political arena, due to “Government Motors.”About all we can do about that is to minimize further damage by not “asking for it.”This is also a good reason not to jump on the “Global Warming” bandwagon.  

    Point well taken. It’s best not to rock the boat any further than already done. Just trumpet its values and let the customers spin the message according to their own needs.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (2:03 pm)

    Noel Park: Too true, IMHO. +1 Two words – Chalmers Johnson.

    Have you heard the tough talk coming out of China the last few days about Taiwan, the Dali Lama, et al? They are going to impose “economic sanctions” on U.S. companies doing business with Taiwan?

    When somebody holds a trillion or two of your debt, they start thinking that they can tell you what to do. Maybe they can! The chickens will come home to roost, sooner or later. I personally am redoubling my efforts to quit buying Chinese products. Japanese too, come to that.

    I’ve been reading “The Sorrows of Empire,” and while I haven’t gotten up to the manufacturing part, I find it extremely anti-American. He has some valid points about our bases. They’re expensive. They’re bad for international relations. They’re offensive from a human rights point of view. And they don’t help us with defense. And a lot of military spending has gotten out of control.

    But Woodrow Wilson is not to blame for the British and French not dismantling their respective empires after WWI. And Kim Jong-Il is definitely not a misunderstood hero who’s only crime is to stand up to the big bad United States. (Although he’s right about our double standards.) And, yes, we did need to fight the cold war against the Soviet Union. Not by going into Vietnam. Or maybe even Korea. But we needed those bases in Western Europe at the time. And the ones in Japan. At least according to everyone I’ve met who actually lived in the Soviet Union. And, while they weren’t privy to the highest level of the government, if they thought so why wouldn’t the US? No. We don’t need them anymore, but that’s a different issue. (By the way, it’s really difficult for the government to shut anything down. Including the Christopher Columbus Foundation that spends a million dollars a year to give out free trips to Disney world.)

    Also, the US interest in oil is not just about helping out certain corporations. It’s, unfortunately, critical to our entire economy. And the entire world’s for that matter. Of course, that doesn’t justify what we’re doing, we waste a lot of it, and we definitely should invest in more alternatives. But that’s just as much about short term thinking as private profit.

    About China–they need access to our markets more than we need access to theirs. That’s what a $270 billion trade deficit (that’s still growing) means. And a lot of other countries balance their trade deficit with China with a trade surplus with the US…

    As far as the money we owe them, our interest rates are too low anyway. At least, IMHO. Of course, our government doesn’t seem to be wiling to take short term pain for long term gain….


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (2:08 pm)

    I have been fairly confident for some time that GM would get a Volt out to dealers reasonably close to the announced timetable; and also, that it would be a car worth wanting and buying. To me, that’s not the issue.

    I have been unemployed now for 4 months, and I’m not liking it very much. I’m far from alone. Jobless figures have dropped to 9.7% (they’ve just announced), but a large part of this is due to the number of people who have stopped trying to find work (a number which does not apply to me — yet). Those people don’t show up in the jobless statistics.

    The race GM is in may be one against the economy. Will there be a reasonable fleet of the cars on the streets before the whole economic house of cards falls down around our ears?

    The degree to which China owns our economy is not merely limited to the number of Chinese-made goods we buy — they’ve been buying our debt. Yes, that debt; the one that’s been increased at lightning speed through US govt. spending. When China decides to, it can delve quite fundamentally into our affairs. Or perhaps they will just decide to look out for themselves and stop buying the debt, which would be equally devastating.

    I don’t believe that an emerging EV industry will help enough in the nearer term; ramp ups and supplier networks will take decades to make a significant dent in nationwide employment figures … though I wish Michigan all the best.

    If America is about to slide into apocalypse, why should a Volt fleet be an important thing to achieve, first? Consider the lowly KDF wagen of 1930′s Germany. It was commissioned as a game-changing peoples’ car (at a time when only the wealthy drove), but only a few were made before the events of WWII in Europe derailed production of civilian items. ***DISCLAIMER*** I am not bringing this up to compare anyone or anything to the nazis. I am bringing it up because this KDF wagen became the nexus of Germany’s 1940s & 50s post war recovery — as the Volkswagen Beetle.

    If things go well over the next decade, wonderful. But if things hit the skids, it still isn’t necessarily “game over” for the Volt. Even years from now, it could turn out to be a seed which can be planted for our recovery.

    You may all recall that I have a “glass half-empty” crystal ball; it’s actually an old Dystopia 2000; and I have a hard time picking out anything past 2012 …

    … of course, it may just be that the Mayan operating system isn’t compliant …


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (2:13 pm)

    Dave K.: LauraM: the one thing that would seriously make me reconsider

    Well said Laura. But, you must admit that the Volt is a very special car in many ways. The first owners will be enjoying the good life. And for under $40k sticker?

    =D~

    I’m with LauraM on this one. If the debut of the Volt in on OR ABOUT 9/11, I’m out. Horrible move. GM is smarter than that.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (2:17 pm)

    Jackson: I can’t get a Volt early (and at this rate, 2012 is starting to look like a stretch).So, I’m not only going to “not sweat the petty stuff,” I’m also not going to pet the sweaty stuff.… Is Cap’n Jack here, yet?  

    LOL, yeah, I choked back that punchline – but I knew it’d squirt out of someone.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (2:18 pm)

    nuclearboy: LauraM: Personally, I think the site is a better, more interesting place when not everyone agrees.

    NB: I disagree.

    You’re BOTH wrong! (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (2:42 pm)

    Jackson: The degree to which China owns our economy is not merely limited to the number of Chinese-made goods we buy — they’ve been buying our debt. Yes, that debt; the one that’s been increased at lightning speed through US govt. spending. When China decides to, it can delve quite fundamentally into our affairs. Or perhaps they will just decide to look out for themselves and stop buying the debt, which would be equally devastating.

    I don’t believe that an emerging EV industry will help enough in the nearer term; ramp ups and supplier networks will take decades to make a significant dent in nationwide employment figures … though I wish Michigan all the best.

    About China “owning us” because of our debt, let’s put things into perspective. They own a maximum 2 trillion dollars worth of our public debt. Our GDP in 2008 was 14.2 trillion dollars. Those are government bonds with specified maturity dates. It’s not like they can call it in at any time. Also, it’s denominated in US dollars, which we can print as much as we want. Whenever we want.

    The reason they have so much US debt is because in order to keep their currency artificially low against the dollar, they have to print renmimbi and buy dollars. Once they have those dollars, they need to do something with it. So, they generally went with government bonds, which is the safest investment possible.

    The real danger is that if they stop buying US bonds, or dump the dollar, interest rates could go up, while value of the dollar would go down, which would make imports more expensive, and, therefore, cause inflation. (Although the US government could print more money to keep interest rates down. But that would cause inflation. Or they could raise interest rates to raise demand for the dollar.)

    Both higher interest rates, and higher prices would painful in the short run. And we would have to get used to consuming less. But that’s going to happen anyway IMHO. We’ve been living beyond our means for way too long. The sooner we stop, the better off we’ll be in the long run.

    On the other hand, if the US stopped running a trade deficit with them, or ran a much smaller one, that would hurt them economically. And if they stopped buying dollars, that would almost have to happen. We’d also have to stop running large trade deficits with the rest of the world. And many of those countries use their trade surplus with us to balance their trade deficit with China. So, they might, in turn, start buying less from China. And manufacturers might move production back to the United States to take advantage of the better exchange rates. And they’d also wind up taking a large loss on their foreign exchange reserves. So I doubt they’ll dump their dollar reserves anytime soon.

    Also, I agree that an EV industry by itself can’t solve our unemployment crisis. It will help. But it’s not nearly enough by itself. What we need is an all around manufacturing revival. And that means industrial policy. Which, unfortunately, seems to be anathema to most Americans. We’ve gotten sold on Milton Friedman style “free trade” theory that should have been dis-proven by the Japanese, South Korean, Taiwanese, etc. success. Apparently not.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (2:50 pm)

    LauraM: On the other hand, if the US stopped running a trade deficit with them, or ran a much smaller one, that would hurt them economically. And if they stopped buying dollars, that would almost have to happen. We’d also have to stop running large trade deficits with the rest of the world. And many of those countries use their trade surplus with us to balance their trade deficit with China. So, they might, in turn, start buying less from China. And manufacturers might move production back to the United States to take advantage of the better exchange rates. And they’d also wind up taking a large loss on their foreign exchange reserves. So I doubt they’ll dump their dollar reserves anytime soon.

    What I hear you saying, bottom line, is that we’re all going down, together. There’s no upward trending factor I can see in this scenario. Nothing comes from nothing.

    As to the specific GDP and debt figures, one only has to see the amount of increase in the national debt over the past year to see how quickly current conditions (poor as they may be) can become much worse.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (2:51 pm)

    Noel Park: #67Too true, IMHO. +1 Two words – Chalmers Johnson.Have you heard the tough talk coming out of China the last few days about Taiwan, the Dali Lama, et al? They are going to impose “economic sanctions” on U.S. companies doing business with Taiwan?When somebody holds a trillion or two of your debt, they start thinking that they can tell you what to do. Maybe they can! The chickens will come home to roost, sooner or later. I personally am redoubling my efforts to quit buying Chinese products. Japanese too, come to that.  (Quote)

    #85 Noel Park,

    I agree with what you said about the debt. I remember reading this brief editorial from an outsider’s perspective about imperialism and how it was through debt that the wealthy nations controlled the poorer nations.

    While I definitely agree with you on not trying to buy an imported good (especially in the strategical sectors), it is very hard to do so in some fields where N.A. companies have been wiped out such as LCD/Plasma TVs, cell phones, computers (if you open up the computer and look at individual components like RAM, for e.g., much of it is from Asia), etc. If what the article said is still true (I plan to go find me a more updated book/article to confirm this, but I don’t see why there may have been a major shift), even benign things like a fridge are being made overseas and being re-branded. What do you do in that case huh…as I’m looking at what I’m writing, I’m staring at a Samsung LCD monitor and to its left, there is a Fujitsu Scanner (though this is my employer’s stuff). As a lower-middle class average Joe, I’m not sure if there is a US/Canada based companies that produce high-quality monitors/scanners at competitive price compared to what I already have at work or at home.

    I guess the only things that we can do, now that we are aware of what is at stake, is to try to root for the home team in whatever industry that is left here–GM, Ford comes to mind for automotive; Apple (or Blackberry, though Apple is much preferred) comes to mind for wireless devices; etc.

    Go VOLT & best of luck, GM.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (2:54 pm)

    nuclearboy: I just assume, from my read of their continued use of the Nov 10 date, that they will make it by hook or by crook.

    #83

    Well this Cruze deal is not encouraging.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (2:56 pm)

    LauraM: We’ve gotten sold on Milton Friedman style “free trade” theory that should have been dis-proven by the Japanese, South Korean, Taiwanese, etc. success. Apparently not.

    You clearly have a lot of detailed knowledge about the workings of the world economy which I lack. It sounds to me that the basic flaw of “free trade” is that no one will play by the rules (Japanese, South Korean, Taiwanese, etc) where their own bottom lines are concerned. If you are correct, then no market can be “free,” just a jungle of competing interests. This doesn’t make the situation any less sad.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (3:00 pm)

    LauraM: To clarify–it’s not exactly the same, but it’s similar. Our major agricultural firms work together. Get subsidies from the government, and sell corn cheaply to other countries. (Below the price of production.)

    #86

    +1 there was a very similar story on NPR the other day about the IMF, the World Bank, and the rice industry in Haiti. A country that used to be self sufficient in food is now destitute and depending on world charity to keep it from starving to death. Charming.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (3:01 pm)

    Jackson: What I hear you saying, bottom line, is that we’re all going down, together. There’s no upward trending factor I can see in this scenario. Nothing comes from nothing.

    I think about Laura M’s comments the way she does. The Chinese will continue to loan us money that we will intern use to buy Chinese goods and go further into debt to china. For them, loaning us money is a stimulus package for them. They will do this until they bleed us dry and we have no hope to repay.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (3:04 pm)

    Jackson: What I hear you saying, bottom line, is that we’re all going down, together. There’s no upward trending factor I can see in this scenario. Nothing comes from nothing.

    As to the specific GDP and debt figures, one only has to see the amount of increase in the national debt over the past year to see how quickly current conditions (poor as they may be) can become much worse.

    Well, they’re upward trending as long as we’re willing to run massive trade deficits. The US consumer has been the major driver of growth for the world economies for the past 50 years. And, now that we’re wiped out, it’s extremely difficult to see what will replace it.

    I agree that things can get worse. Much worse. But the sooner we start facing reality and start living within our means, the better. At least IMHO. We need to start investing rather than consuming. We need to rebuild our infrastructure (roads, bridges, rail, water, etc.) And we need to invest in basic science and long term R&D. But we also need safeguards to keep at least some of the economic benefits of that research here. And that means industrial policy.

    We also need to cut spending dramatically. And, while there is waste that could be cut, ultimately, it’s going to have to come from some very difficult areas. Because that’s where the money is. And that’s extremely difficult for any government. Especially one that still has a very low cost of borrowing.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (3:05 pm)

    nuclearboy:
    I think about Laura M’s comments the way she does.The Chinese will continue to loan us money that we will intern use to buy Chinese goods and go further into debt to china.For them, loaning us money is a stimulus package for them.They will do this until they bleed us dry and we have no hope to repay.  

    Well that’s a relief … ?


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (3:08 pm)

    LauraM: I’ve been reading “The Sorrows of Empire,”

    #100 Hooray for you. +1 As to the rest, the site is more interesting when not everyone agrees. Frankly, I get a little anti-American myself from time to time, when I see some of the stupid s__t we do, and the disgusting spin and counter spin coming out of DC every day.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (3:13 pm)

    Jackson: It sounds to me that the basic flaw of “free trade” is that no one will play by the rules (Japanese, South Korean, Taiwanese, etc) where their own bottom lines are concerned.

    I think so to. We have used free trade as a cold war tool to help economies build up and become allies. We lost out to them but they were allies and at least not aligned with the Soviets. Now, we seem to think that free trade is the way we must go.

    god forbid we limit cash for clunkers to US brands. That would be unfair….

    To add to this discussion, I can give my experience with science. We spend more money on basic Research than any other country. And this does not include our military budget although their is some overlap. Many countries simply take our research and build off of the promising work. We pay the heavy price of the research however. Most of it, we simply give away for free. Whether through FOI requests or simply by publications. Just as bad as trade in this country, we are loosing intellectual property at an alarming rate. My experience working at a Naval Research Lab years ago taught me that friendly spies were everywhere. Research results are easy to swift away.

    I spent two years as a guest researcher at the National Institute of Standards (NIST) in MD during the 90′s. They had an awesome library filled with Research articles. A wonderful place to be. I copied some reports for my work and what I noticed at the time was Russian visitors (probably also guest researchers) using the copier for hours on end. You and I paid for the research and then also for the paper and copier used to provide it to foreign countries. I saw this on many occasions. Test programs are typically measured in the millions of dollars and if you can get the results distilled for you and simply copy it, that is quite a deal for others.

    At my current position in US Nuclear Research, I see countries all over the world using our research and regulatory guidance. Some day we will have to stop thinking we can solve all of the worlds problems at the US taxpayers expense. You cannot blame the other countries, if we make things available, they are wise to pick it up and use it.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (3:21 pm)

    nuclearboy: At my current position in US Nuclear Research, I see countries all over the world using our research and regulatory guidance. Some day we will have to stop thinking we can solve all of the worlds problems at the US taxpayers expense. You cannot blame the other countries, if we make things available, they are wise to pick it up and use it.

    Nuclearboy,

    Do you think we have a prayer of getting a research program in this country aimed at civilian nuclear power based on a Thorium cycle?


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (3:30 pm)

    Jackson: been unemployed now for 4 months, and I’m not liking it very much

    In the last downturn (’02-’03) I was out for over a year. Good news is that I was lucky this time.

    More good news is that one of my buddies just landed a good job, so, I don’t personally know of anyone unemployed. (At least totally. Some are under-employed.)

    Better news is that my company had a job fair today and is hiring again. (Hiring has been frozen for over a year.)


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (3:40 pm)

    I just saw the best news…….on my local Chevy web site!!!!!

    Coming in 2011, the Chevy Volt electric car. The Chevy Volt is the most exciting electric car in Jacksonville and will be available exclusively at Nimnicht Chevrolet!

    The Chevy Volt electric car can create its own electricity and can run on pure electric charge for up to 40 miles after plugged in overnight – gas and emissions free! And the exciting part about the Chevy Volt is, if you can plug it in, this electric car uses a range-extending gas generator that creates enough power for it to drive hundreds of miles on a single tank of gas!

    We invite you to visit the leading car dealership in Jacksonville, Nimnicht Chevy, and learn more about this exciting new electric car brought to you only by Chevrolet!


  119. 119
    LauraM

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (3:40 pm)

    Noel Park: +1 there was a very similar story on NPR the other day about the IMF, the World Bank, and the rice industry in Haiti. A country that used to be self sufficient in food is now destitute and depending on world charity to keep it from starving to death. Charming.

    Well, in fairness, a lot of that is because of population growth. Haiti had around 9.7 million people in 2009. They had only 6 million in 1980. I don’t know when they were self sufficient in food, but that’s a lot of extra mouths to feed in a very short period of time.

    Also, in the 1970s the US exported the “green revolution” to many developing countries, which drastically increased food production in the short term. It was necessary because people were starving. But it involves a lot of expensive chemicals that ruin the soil and the environment long term. It’s also water intensive. And involves draining underground, nonrenewable aquifers. And, rice, in particular, is a very water intensive crop.

    And then there’s global warming, which is causing droughts and food shortages all over the world.

    It’s a complicated issue. The US is dumping subsidized rice, which puts farmers out of business. But, on the other hand, when people are starving, you can’t not send food…


  120. 120
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (3:57 pm)

    Noel Park: #100 Hooray for you. +1 As to the rest, the site is more interesting when not everyone agrees. Frankly, I get a little anti-American myself from time to time, when I see some of the stupid s__t we do, and the disgusting spin and counter spin coming out of DC every day.

    Well, I agree that the United States is far from perfect. But then again, in my experience, no one else is either. It’s all relative. (Although I’d argue that the United States is a lot less repressive to the rest of the world than China would be.)

    And, at the end of the day, I live here. And I plan to keep on living here. So…


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:01 pm)

    LauraM: It’s a complicated issue. The US is dumping subsidized rice, which puts farmers out of business. But, on the other hand, when people are starving, you can’t not send food…

    #119

    Well the short version is that when the Clinton administration reinstated Aristide in the 1990s, it did so with a fair amount of baggage. Including requiring him to get rid of Haiti’s import tariffs on rice. Thereupon, said dumping of subsidized rice began, driving the local rice mill(s) out of business and the farmers off the land.

    Not to mention the contribution of the rice industry to the water supply situation in CA.


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    ProfessorGordon

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:01 pm)

    Dave K.:
    Why would post #23 get a -5 score?Did I say anything negative about GM?

    I don’t get it either, it was a fair comment. I read it earlier and gave my +1.

    It’s kind of like in a chicken coop I guess. Once one starts to get picked on others gang up too. Don’t take it personally.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:05 pm)

    LauraM: And, at the end of the day, I live here. And I plan to keep on living here. So…

    #120

    Well so do I. But if we don’t fix it, our quality of life, and that of our children and grandchildren, is not going to be what we would desire.


  124. 124
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:06 pm)

    First off, a big thanks to Leo Karl for his excellent explanation of the chart and ordering process.

    Secondly, I noticed this, too:
    “The chart also shows estimated start of production for the 2011 Chevy VOLT is November 1, 2010. However, the chart also shows that GM expects to post each dealers’ final allocation on their website by November 17th and then dealer order submission (DOSP) by November 18th.”

    The dates start to go backwards for the Volt.
    Most of the other cars have April, May, June progressions in web allocation, DOSP and production. The Volts are nearly the same day for web allocation, DOSP and production starts a few weeks earlier.

    If I read between the lines, the way I interpret this (and you should not consider me an expert in this area because I don’t know anything about it ;) ) as implying that GM will simply start producing what they want to produce. They are not going to wait for dealer requests, or orders, and will start producing the configurations that GM wants to produce and simply allot them out to the dealers in lieu of whatever they requested.

    That could mean several different things. I think the conventional wisdom is that dealers tend to load up on options for new, in-demand models so they can charge more for them. But if GM is actually selling what they want to produce instead of what dealers want to order, then who knows what will show up.

    Although, I’d kind of think GM would want to have loaded Volts to make more money as well, it might hurt the image if the initial volts were all high end models and thus much more expensive than the lowball estimates that have been bandied about. The first lot of volts may well be all base models that they will just dole out to dealers so that they come close to the price targets they have been talking about.

    Now I’m really curious to see what happens. :)


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:12 pm)

    nuclearboy: I spent two years as a guest researcher at the National Institute of Standards (NIST) in MD during the 90’s. They had an awesome library filled with Research articles. A wonderful place to be. I copied some reports for my work and what I noticed at the time was Russian visitors (probably also guest researchers) using the copier for hours on end. You and I paid for the research and then also for the paper and copier used to provide it to foreign countries. I saw this on many occasions. Test programs are typically measured in the millions of dollars and if you can get the results distilled for you and simply copy it, that is quite a deal for others.

    At my current position in US Nuclear Research, I see countries all over the world using our research and regulatory guidance. Some day we will have to stop thinking we can solve all of the worlds problems at the US taxpayers expense. You cannot blame the other countries, if we make things available, they are wise to pick it up and use it.

    I agree. I can’t blame other countries for taking advantage of our policies. If we won’t protect ourselves, why blame them for using the tools they have at their disposal to help themselves?

    We used to be the richest country in the world. Most people seem convinced that we still are. We still live like we are. So why shouldn’t they try to obtain an equivalent standard of living? And why shouldn’t we help them do that since we have so much more than they do?

    Of course, at this point, we’re all tapped out. And living on credit. But, hey, as long as we can keep on borrowing more money, we’re set.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:12 pm)

    nuclearboy:
    No,
    I just found it appropriate to disagree since the merits of disagreement were being mentioned.Its good to disagree.I disagree…Agreed   

    I knew what you meant right away. I was just going to ask you, “have you stopped beating your wife?” Agreed? ;-)


  127. 127
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:14 pm)

    WOW! I had to scroll all the way to the top to confirm that this thread was about good news! Such a depressive turn it’s taken. Granted, it’s all very interesting stuff and I (always) learn a lot but…
    I know things aren’t very rosy on a lot of fronts, and on a lot of levels it’s good to “get it out” – to ventilate, but we’re blessed in many ways TOO.
    Personal example (my turn to ventilate). *Everyone* in my family dies ~age 55 or younger from something vascular. All grandparents, 6 uncles, parents, sister (with 5 kids only made it to 42). BUT I’m in my 60′s! Yes, I’ve done a lot prophylactically re my heart – base EKG’s., Stress EKG’s, MRI’s for aneurysms, blood work every 6 months, great cholesterol, etc. Not only am I the first to get past the gloomy 50′s, I’m the first in my entire family to live long enough to get cancer! (LOL). BUT I’m in the process of beating that and this July 18th will mark my 5 years out from the original surgery. I know this all falls into the category of TOO MUCH INFO, but I just had a need to make a point. I *know* the negative things need to be discussed in order to make progress, but at some point we need to also take stock and recognize some of the positives.
    We live in a great country! Flaws? Sure, but do more people leave our country than try to sneak in? Nope, quite the opposite – people risk everything to get in. Maybe there’s a message there.
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    /sometimes even shrinks need to ventilate

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:21 pm)

    Noel Park: Well the short version is that when the Clinton administration reinstated Aristide in the 1990s, it did so with a fair amount of baggage. Including requiring him to get rid of Haiti’s import tariffs on rice. Thereupon, said dumping of subsidized rice began, driving the local rice mill(s) out of business and the farmers off the land.

    Not to mention the contribution of the rice industry to the water supply situation in CA.

    I agree about the cause. But what do we do about it now? Not send food? They’re starving. And, even if we could reinstate their farmers, due to population growth, global warming, and environmental degradation, they probably still wouldn’t be able to feed themselves.

    Meanwhile, their main source of income is remittances from immigrants. But are those remittances really helping? It’s definitely not a long term solution. I don’t have any answers.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:24 pm)

    Noel Park:
    When somebody holds a trillion or two of your debt, they start thinking that they can tell you what to do.Maybe they can!The chickens will come home to roost, sooner or later.I personally am redoubling my efforts to quit buying Chinese products.Japanese too, come to that.  

    Good luck with that. :) And I mean that in about 50% sincerity and 50% hopelessness.
    I’ve been trying to avoid buying things from China for a lot of reasons, too. It’s gotten to the point where Chinese goods are so pervasive that it’s pretty scary, all right. And not just finished products oem’d from other companies, but in components and ingredients, foodstuffs to electronics, it seems as if nearly everything is being made there and shipped here.

    I’m going to go back to munching on my little roll of Smarties candies. Those are made in Canada. ;)


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:25 pm)

    Noel Park: Well so do I. But if we don’t fix it, our quality of life, and that of our children and grandchildren, is not going to be what we would desire.

    #123 I agree. Completely.


  131. 131
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:29 pm)

    Tagamet: WOW! I had to scroll all the way to the top to confirm that this thread was about good news! Such a depressive turn it’s taken. Granted, it’s all very interesting stuff and I (always) learn a lot but…
    I know things aren’t very rosy on a lot of fronts, and on a lot of levels it’s good to “get it out” – to ventilate, but we’re blessed in many ways TOO.
    Personal example (my turn to ventilate). *Everyone* in my family dies ~age 55 or younger from something vascular. All grandparents, 6 uncles, parents, sister (with 5 kids only made it to 42). BUT I’m in my 60’s! Yes, I’ve done a lot prophylactically re my heart – base EKG’s., Stress EKG’s, MRI’s for aneurysms, blood work every 6 months, great cholesterol, etc. Not only am I the first to get past the gloomy 50’s, I’m the first in my entire family to live long enough to get cancer! (LOL). BUT I’m in the process of beating that and this July 18th will mark my 5 years out from the original surgery. I know this all falls into the category of TOO MUCH INFO, but I just had a need to make a point. I *know* the negative things need to be discussed in order to make progress, but at some point we need to also take stock and recognize some of the positives.
    We live in a great country! Flaws? Sure, but do more people leave our country than try to sneak in? Nope, quite the opposite – people risk everything to get in. Maybe there’s a message there.
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    /sometimes even shrinks need to ventilate

    I’m glad you’re still alive. Both for your sake, And for my sake. And, yes, there are benefits to living here. I really wish I could be more optimistic about the future.

    And, you’re right. We should try to be more optimistic. So I won’t even give my standard answer to the immigration thing.

    And the Volt being on the dealer order form is very good news. While the Volt is far from being a cure all, it can help with a lot of our problems. It makes me hope that maybe, just maybe, modern science can find a way out of this. For everyone.


  132. 132
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:30 pm)

    Noel Park: #119Well the short version is that when the Clinton administration reinstated Aristide in the 1990s, it did so with a fair amount of baggage. Including requiring him to get rid of Haiti’s import tariffs on rice. Thereupon, said dumping of subsidized rice began, driving the local rice mill(s) out of business and the farmers off the land.Not to mention the contribution of the rice industry to the water supply situation in CA.  (Quote)

    #121

    off the land…and into the arms of sweatshop owners in Port au Prince, who are exempted from paying Haiti’s minimun wage, 3 bucks/diam was reading yesterday. A different type of “disaster capitalism”?

    +1 Noel


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:40 pm)

    LauraM: I agree about the cause. But what do we do about it now? Not send food? They’re starving.

    #128

    Well I didn’t mean to say or imply that. Even we sent in a few bucks to MSF to try to help the cause. I would say that we have a special responsibility to help, because our century or so of messing about in their affairs has plenty to do with their current sorry state. I’m saying that we need to quit doing this stuff in the future.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:40 pm)

    LauraM:
    I’m glad you’re still alive.Both for your sake,And for my sake.And, yes, there are benefits to living here.I really wish I could be more optimistic about the future.And, you’re right.We should try to be more optimistic.So I won’t even give my standard answer to the immigration thing.And the Volt being on the dealer order form is very good news.While the Volt is far from being a cure all, it can help with a lot of our problems.It makes me hope that maybe, just maybe, modern science can find a way out of this.For everyone.  

    Good Job! Thanks, I really needed that shift to a positive note. I felt like I was circling the porcelain facility! (lol). Gotta have some faith in the American resilience.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  135. 135
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:40 pm)

    DaveP: Good luck with that. :) And I mean that in about 50% sincerity and 50% hopelessness.
    I’ve been trying to avoid buying things from China for a lot of reasons, too. It’s gotten to the point where Chinese goods are so pervasive that it’s pretty scary, all right. And not just finished products oem’d from other companies, but in components and ingredients, foodstuffs to electronics, it seems as if nearly everything is being made there and shipped here.

    I’m going to go back to munching on my little roll of Smarties candies. Those are made in Canada. ;)

    I find it horrifying that we’re importing food from China. That has to be a safety hazard. Even aside from their numerous quality control issues, just think about all that pollution.

    And, as an equity issue, they have much less arable land than we do, and a much higher population. And much less water per capita. So why are they exporting food? I could see some trade in exotic fruit that won’t grow here. But apples? And fish?


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:44 pm)

    D.: A different type of “disaster capitalism”?

    #133

    Thanks. +1 to you too. I was just about to recommend Naomi Klein to LauraM, but I figured that I had done enough damage with Chalmers Johnson, LOL.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:45 pm)

    Tagamet: Good Job! Thanks, I really needed that shift to a positive note. I felt like I was circling the porcelain facility! (lol). Gotta have some faith in the American resilience.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Sorry. I got distracted by the thought of eating food imported from China…And I love Chinese food. Well, at least the kind served in American restaurants. Even though it’s really fattening…

    I’ll try to be more optimistic..


  138. 138
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:50 pm)

    nuclearboy:
    I disagree.  

    LOL +1


  139. 139
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:59 pm)

    LauraM: I’ll try to be more optimistic..

    “There is no “try”, only “do” – Yoda

    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  140. 140
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (4:59 pm)

    Noel Park: Well I didn’t mean to say or imply that. Even we sent in a few bucks to MSF to try to help the cause. I would say that we have a special responsibility to help, because our century or so of messing about in their affairs has plenty to do with their current sorry state. I’m saying that we need to quit doing this stuff in the future.

    I know you didn’t mean it like that. But what can we do that won’t make matters worse in the long run? Obviously, we should send food now. But, in long run, we need to put their farmers back to work. But is that possible? And even if it is, would that make them self sufficient again? The past is the past. Not doing it again isn’t going to solve any problems.

    And I’d love to end our agricultural subsidies. But talk about politically impossible…I think that’s even harder than a gasoline tax…


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (5:05 pm)

    Tagamet:

    … so … know where I can get a new crystal ball?


  142. 142
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (5:05 pm)

    Tagamet: “There is no “try”, only “do” – Yoda

    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Well, I’m optimistic that my avoiding things made in China as much as possible will help? And to think I started out by explaining why China doesn’t “own” us….


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (5:07 pm)

    Jackson: It sounds to me that the basic flaw of “free trade” is that no one will play by the rules (Japanese, South Korean, Taiwanese, etc) where their own bottom lines are concerned. If you are correct, then no market can be “free,” just a jungle of competing interests

    This is basic human nature.. its not perfect now but it could be a LOT worse if every country starts imposing heavy tariffs on everything.. trade would freeze completely and the world would plunge into wars and massive depressions.

    Do we still have a tariff on foreign built pick up trucks?.. probably why Ford and GM based their wellbeing on them for so long.. unintended consequences and all that.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (5:12 pm)

    Herm: Cruze date TBD?.. what is the issue?  (Quote)

    Chevrolet Cruze is comeing out in the three quater of 2010.


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    TVAF

     

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (5:45 pm)

    Desde España:

    Llega demasiado tarde. ¡Hay que incrementar la producción!.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (5:47 pm)

    LauraM: I find it horrifying that we’re importing food from China.

    #135

    Yeah, you scared me bad enough with your comment about vitamins from China the other day. Aaaaarrrrgggghhh!!

    Where is the Captain, by the way?


  147. 147
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (6:04 pm)

    Tagamet: Gotta have some faith in the American resilience.

    #134

    I have great faith in American resilience. I have said for years that the country is so strong that it will survive whatever batch of “leaders” happen to be in charge at the time. We have gotten ourselves into such a hole now, that my faith sometimes wavers, I must confess.

    Going back to your previous comments as to whether the Chevy dealers will “feel it” if individuals refuse to pay the “dealer markup”, I really do have some faith in the so-called “power of one”. All of our little buying decisions are like the drops of rain that join together to make up the Mississippi River. If not us, who? If not now, when?

    So I think that we need to speak out as much as we can, via whatever platforms we can find, about these issues which concern us. Even if it’s poor old GM-Volt.com, and its long suffering community.

    We have also taken to contributing a few bucks to candidates we think (hope) may do the right thing. And what is to us a lot of money to targeted NGOs, particularly in the environmental arena. Particularly ones with with aggressive litigation programs, because that is one of the few ways that citizens can really push back.

    That’s one of the reasons I enjoy this site so much. It really does give me a lot of motivation not to give up.

    And BTW, my wife is struggling with Stage 4 breast cancer, so I have some understanding of, and total empathy for, what you have gone through and continue to go through. Some how we have to dig down and find the courage and strength to carry on in all of these arenas.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (6:06 pm)

    Jackson: The race GM is in may be one against the economy. Will there be a reasonable fleet of the cars on the streets before the whole economic house of cards falls down around our ears?

    Call me a pessimist but didn’t it kind of do that already?

    Herm: Jackson: It sounds to me that the basic flaw of “free trade” is that no one will play by the rules (Japanese, South Korean, Taiwanese, etc) where their own bottom lines are concerned. If you are correct, then no market can be “free,” just a jungle of competing interests
    This is basic human nature.. its not perfect now but it could be a LOT worse if every country starts imposing heavy tariffs on everything.. trade would freeze completely and the world would plunge into wars and massive depressions.

    Jackson – Free rider principle from economists. Herm you mean we’ globally take a time out from the massive depressions and ongoing wars just to find ourselves plunged into wars and massive depressions? Oh good grief!!!


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (6:10 pm)

    Here’s how you handle the Chinese (and other) foreign debt:
    ——————————————-
    (The mood in Lisa’s meeting room isn’t much less hostile. The
    creditor nations go from wanting to be repaid to calling for Lisa’s
    head. Just when things couldn’t get worse, Bart walks in.)

    Bart: You guys should relax; you’ll live longer.

    Lisa: Bart, you’re supposed to be at Camp David.

    Bart: [aside to Lisa] You’re meeting with debt collectors and you don’t want my help? Do you know how crazy that is?
    [to the creditors] Guys, the thing is, we totally have the money, and we tried to wire it to you, but you know how banks screw up.

    Frenchman: I do not understand.

    Bart: We tried to call you all day Saturday.

    German: We were there Saturday.

    Bart: Dude, I know. I left a message with some guy named Hans.

    German: Hans?

    Bart: He might have been a temp. Very surly.

    German: We have had a lot of turnover.

    Chinese Man: You pay now! Now! [pounds fist on table]

    Bart: What happened to you, China? You used to be cool.

    Chinese Man: Hey, China is still cool. You pay later. Later!
    [pounds fist on table]

    Bart: Solid. The rest of you go on home, and look in your mailboxes, cause I totally remember sending checks out.

    [murmuring, the creditor nations' representatives leave]
    – Bart Simpson, master negotiator, “Bart to the Future”


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (6:15 pm)

    LauraM: Not doing it again isn’t going to solve any problems.

    #140

    No, but it would avoid creating new ones.

    LauraM: And I’d love to end our agricultural subsidies. But talk about politically impossible…I think that’s even harder than a gasoline tax…

    I agree. And I would love to cut back on military spending, overseas bases, and our role as the policeman of the world. I take your point about the scientific spinoffs of our military development programs, but to me they’re the most inefficient jobs program ever devised by the mind of man (and I use the term “man” advisedly).

    And that’s even harder that ending agricultural subsidies or enacting a gasoline tax. And I don’t have any better answers about how to do it than you do. But they all need to happen. So I guess that we all need to try to dig down somewhere and try to find the strength to do our bit.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (6:20 pm)

    Speedy: Chevrolet Cruze is comeing out in the three quater of 2010.

    #144

    Aw man, I thought it was supposed to be June? I guess July is in the 3rd quarter, right? They’d better get with it, I’m running out of options.


  152. 152
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    Feb 5th, 2010 (6:54 pm)

    Jackson: Do you think we have a prayer of getting a research program in this country aimed at civilian nuclear power based on a Thorium cycle?

    There is resistance on these types of new designs. The Nuclear Reg. commission must license whatever is built and it will be tough to get a new design licensed. With years of expensive tests and tools (ie. saftey codes) developed for light water reactors, the NRC still takes years to license a plant. If a new design comes along, it will take years to develop the saftey tools and tests that are required so that the design review can be completed. This adds big costs and big delays and makes light water reactors a safer bet. Right now, of all the new applications in at the NRC, all are for light water reactors.

    The pebble bed keeps popping up but has not been formally submitted for an application because questions keep popping up that are not answerable without lots of testing and lots of $$. Right now, the country is supposed to be buildinig a next generation plant (either prismatic or pebble bed) high temperature gas reactor and that is going dismally slow. DOE has not even down selected a design yet. The application therefore, has not been submitted yet to the NRC. When and if it is, it will take double the time of a light water reactor to be approved. I look for this program to eventually be killed.

    So, the answer is, we may get a research program but to actually build a plant we need a very large and concentrated effort involving thousands of engineers. It would start at the DOE. Right now the DOE does have money for research in a broad range of areas and I have seen money for liquid metal reactors and the graphite high temperature reactors (like the pebble bed).

    The only hope of a new reactor in the next 10 years will come from the new light water reactors (ESBWR, APWR, AP1000, etc. etc.).

    It will take and act of congress to get anything else moving and these guys are tough to figure out.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (6:55 pm)

    Herm: This is basic human nature.. its not perfect now but it could be a LOT worse if every country starts imposing heavy tariffs on everything.. trade would freeze completely and the world would plunge into wars and massive depressions.

    Do we still have a tariff on foreign built pick up trucks?.. probably why Ford and GM based their wellbeing on them for so long.. unintended consequences and all that.

    Before the depression, our average tariffs were around 50%. And we were hardly alone. And we did pretty well with that. Globalization is not a necessity for human survival.

    I’m not saying abolish all trade. I’m saying don’t go into the trade agreements with the automatic idea that more is better. Take Obama’s statement during the State of the Union speech that he wants to double our exports. The only way that could happen is if we quadrupled our imports. Not worth it, IMHO.

    And that tariff on foreign built pick-up trucks is probably the only reason Ford and GM are still around to argue about. Absolutely, there can be unintended consequences with selective tariffs. But that doesn’t mean we should get rid of them entirely.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (6:59 pm)

    Noel Park: #144Aw man, I thought it was supposed to be June? I guess July is in the 3rd quarter, right? They’d better get with it, I’m running out of options.  (Quote)

    I believe 3rd quarter is sooner then june or july.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:18 pm)

    Jackson:
    … so … know where I can get a new crystal ball?  

    Ollie Optimist’s Optics is where I get mine. (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:21 pm)

    LauraM:
    Well, I’m optimistic that my avoiding things made in China as much as possible will help?And to think I started out by explaining why China doesn’t “own” us….  

    LOL, no they just own our emotional status and control our behavior, but other than that we’re totally unaffected.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:37 pm)

    Noel Park: I take your point about the scientific spinoffs of our military development programs, but to me they’re the most inefficient jobs program ever devised by the mind of man (and I use the term “man” advisedly).

    I agree that it’s inefficient. But as long as Americans hate the very thought of industrial policy, what are we supposed to do? Admittedly, it doesn’t work nearly as well as it used to….but I think we still need to hang onto whatever works. And do whatever we have to do to make sure the economic benefits stay in the US.

    By the way, we don’t need overseas bases or to continue our role as the world’s policeman to do that. And if we cut that out, we’d save a lot of money. All we need is DARPA, some of the DOD’s other research programs, and some (but by no means all) of the procurement contracts.

    On the other hand, based on yesterday’s original post, I’m hopeful that we might be shifting to a more direct form of industrial policy. Can you imagine GM becoming a player in industrial robots? It could happen.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:53 pm)

    LauraM: On the other hand, based on yesterday’s original post, I’m hopeful that we might be shifting to a more direct form of industrial policy. Can you imagine GM becoming a player in industrial robots? It could happen.

    #157

    As the wise one said:

    “From your lips to god’s ear.” +1

    I think it was Yoda, right?


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:56 pm)

    “Currently, this is the case with the 2010 Equinox and to a degree, still exists with the 2010 Camaro. Dealer’s can ask for the product, but GM just can’t produce enough… they dole those units out like dealing a deck of cards. ”

    _______________________

    Can’t produce enough of the vehicles people want to own? Is this a planning issue or a calculated rationing?

    GM could be cranking out T batteries as fast and hard as they are able to. And ship the overflow to Europe for the Ampera roll out.

    Wonder how Frank Weber is doing?

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:57 pm)

    Noel Park: I take your point about the scientific spinoffs of our military development programs, but to me they’re the most inefficient jobs program ever devised by the mind of man (and I use the term “man” advisedly).

    From an insiders view (at one point in time), I find the military spending has many benefits. I worked in a DOD lab for 10 years. They spend money on a variety of research topics that push the state-of-knowledge in areas that otherwise would not be pushed. Materials research, basic physics, aerospace, computer science. You name it. I spent years doing research that was paid for by DOD that had more benefit to general science than to the military.

    It may be inefficient but it is there. Many PhDs are funded through these programs and many university departments live by this money. DOD research labs are a benefit to the country as a whole.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:58 pm)

    nuclearboy: The only hope of a new reactor in the next 10 years will come from the new light water reactors (ESBWR, APWR, AP1000, etc. etc.).

    #152

    +1 for truth telling, IMHO.

    So what does this say about these wonderful new systems I keep hearing about here that eat nuclear waste and spit out kilowatts, or whatever it is?

    Don’t get me wrong, if President Obama and Secretary Chu can support building some new nukes, I’m not going to fight about it. I just don’t want to get snowed.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:59 pm)

    LauraM: Globalization is not a necessity for human survival.

    #153

    Amen. +1


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (7:59 pm)

    Noel Park: Thanks. +1 to you too. I was just about to recommend Naomi Klein to LauraM, but I figured that I had done enough damage with Chalmers Johnson, LOL.

    I think Chalmers Johnson is enough actually.

    My suggestion? Try the “end of influence” by Bradford DeLong and Stephen Cohen. Or even “Bad Money” by Kevin Phillips. I don’t agree with everything he wrote. But he has some valid points. And he doesn’t make factually dubious statements like the Soviet Union collapsed because Gorbachev saw the light. (Without even mentioning the collapse in worldwide oil prices.)


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:01 pm)

    Dave K.: You have plans at shooting for a first year Volt?

    I definitely want one and I’d like it sooner or later. But if that doesn’t happen then I’m OK waiting. Like you I’m just happy that someone will have one but perhaps unlike you I’d like that someone to be me! How about yourself?


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:11 pm)

    nuclearboy: It may be inefficient but it is there. Many PhDs are funded through these programs and many university departments live by this money. DOD research labs are a benefit to the country as a whole.

    #160

    What I am talking about is multi billion dollar weapons systems for which the need is extremely arguable, to be very tactful. One example here in SoCal is the C17. The president and the Air Force say that they don’t need or want any more, but Congress keeps parceling out a few hundred million a year to keep the program alive to preserve the jobs. I’ll say it again. The most inefficient jobs program ever devised by the mind of “man”. Good for Boeing, though.

    I assume that the basic research labs which you reference are a minuscule percentage of the overall “defense” budget, and I really don’t worry about them.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:17 pm)

    LauraM: “Bad Money” by Kevin Phillips.

    #163

    I have it. Actually, I have quoted it here a number of times. Have your read his previous book “American Theocracy”? It took me a long time to work up the courage to read it, given the title, but it is really good, and sort of laid the groundwork for “Bad Money”.

    If you have the intestinal fortitude to read “The Sorrows of Empire”, I will take a crack at “End of Influence”. It’s only fair, LOL. I will give you a book report when I get finished.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:26 pm)

    Noel Park: So what does this say about these wonderful new systems I keep hearing about here that eat nuclear waste and spit out kilowatts, or whatever it is?

    Don’t get me wrong, if President Obama and Secretary Chu can support building some new nukes, I’m not going to fight about it. I just don’t want to get snowed.

    Those systems are not going to be making electricity on the grid for some time. None are planned as far as I know. The planned reactors that will actually put power to the grid are simply a refinement/improvement on the light water reactor designs we have now. They are much safer but they will still produce spent fuel that will need to be stored. We need Yucca mountain or some other high level repository. Right now, the plan is to store the rods in large concrete containers on a parking lot near the plant.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:29 pm)

    Noel Park:
    #134I have great faith in American resilience.I have said for years that the country is so strong that it will survive whatever batch of “leaders” happen to be in charge at the time.We have gotten ourselves into such a hole now, that my faith sometimes wavers, I must confess.Going back to your previous comments as to whether the Chevy dealers will “feel it” if individuals refuse to pay the “dealer markup”, I really do have some faith in the so-called “power of one”.All of our little buying decisions are like the drops of rain that join together to make up the Mississippi River.If not us, who?If not now, when?So I think that we need to speak out as much as we can, via whatever platforms we can find, about these issues which concern us.Even if it’s poor old GM-Volt.com, and its long suffering community.We have also taken to contributing a few bucks to candidates we think (hope) may do the right thing.And what is to us a lot of money to targeted NGOs, particularly in the environmental arena.Particularly ones with with aggressive litigation programs, because that is one of the few ways that citizens can really push back.That’s one of the reasons I enjoy this site so much.It really does give me a lot of motivation not to give up.And BTW, my wife is struggling with Stage 4 breast cancer, so I have some understanding of, and total empathy for, what you have gone through and continue to go through. Some how we have to dig down and find the courage and strength to carry on in all of these arenas.  

    Hey Noel,
    I also believe in the cumulative power of many small individual acts. My misleading statement about the dealer not feeling the “pain” was related more to the idea that initially they will be selling every Volt they get. That doesn’t mean that within a couple of years *their* chickens (angry ex-patrons) will come home to roost (by continuing to be ex-patrons).
    Sorry about your Dear One and your family. Anything that affects any family member (good OR bad), obviously affects the whole family. Our church has a great prayer-chain your family is now on. *My* best advice is to know that whatever happens, it’s going to be ok.
    As I mentioned to LauraM the other day, the worse I feel, the more I try to do for others. Little anonymous things help me most! My barber and I have a routine where I pick out someone waiting for a “cut” and secretly pay for their cut. Last time it was a very young soldier. The barber just tells them “someone” already paid for it (after I’m long gone), and even in a small town, no one has figured it out. A cheap bunch of flowers for an old lady in the grocery store. Pay the toll for the car behind you at the bridge, you get the idea. It puts your focus outside yourself and your feelings. Karma is a neat concept too.
    As I’m writing this, I realize that a small part of my being the resident optimist and mediating some of the little frictions here is probably reflecting my own need to try to stay positive. And I suspect it’s why I am *overly* sensitive to some of the very rational and reasonable gloomy statements of fact here. *I* need to work on that (g).

    Be well,
    Tagamet
    /and now back to the VOLT! (LOL)

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:32 pm)

    Noel Park: I assume that the basic research labs which you reference are a minuscule percentage of the overall “defense” budget, and I really don’t worry about them.

    I don’t know the breakdown but I am sure the research dollars are small compared to an airframe purchase.

    I hear you on the large procurements. They are a problem. As you point out, it is good for Boeing (in the case you mention). The government does think this way. I see it all the time. Some things are funded that are not really important at the moment in order to keep a facility or company alive (with knowledgable staff in place) so that it will be around later for other purposes that may be more important or critical for our country.

    The solution is to stop spending more than we have and start pinching all programs to squeeze out inefficiencies. If we started trying to balance the budget, people would look much harder at everything.

    An across the board spending freeze would be a good start and then the elimination of programs should begin to actually start paying down the debt.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:33 pm)

    LauraM: We’ve gotten sold on Milton Friedman style “free trade” theory that should have been dis-proven by the Japanese, South Korean, Taiwanese, etc. success. Apparently not.  (Quote)

    Regarding Milton Friedman, I’m an economist by education and used to practically worship at Uncle Milty’s alter. But his theories were hatched in a time when world trade was pretty much limited to Europe, North America and later, Japan. Relative to today, the playing field was much more equal and pure free trade between those countries made sense. But when you put the Chinas of the world into the equation, who even without trade barriers have dismilar standards to ours (safety, pollution, etc.) that the Milton’s theories don’t work…at least not to our North American advantage which is what I care about most.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:43 pm)

    Tagamet/Noel: Noel Park:
    #134I have great faith in American resilience.I have said for years that the country is so strong that it will survive.

    NP,
    I am saddened to hear of your wife’s condition. I have a wife with Lymphoma and I when I hear of these things I am hit hard because I know some of the issues and fears. Tag has wonderful advice and I can simply say that being positive is a big help. I too will add a prayer.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:43 pm)

    Noel Park:
    #157As the wise one said:“From your lips to god’s ear.”+1I think it was Yoda, right?  

    Well, Yoda was definitely a “spirited” individual. I think that he might have been a Methodist though…
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:51 pm)

    Noel Park: What I am talking about is multi billion dollar weapons systems for which the need is extremely arguable, to be very tactful. One example here in SoCal is the C17. The president and the Air Force say that they don’t need or want any more, but Congress keeps parceling out a few hundred million a year to keep the program alive to preserve the jobs. I’ll say it again. The most inefficient jobs program ever devised by the mind of “man”. Good for Boeing, though.

    I assume that the basic research labs which you reference are a minuscule percentage of the overall “defense” budget, and I really don’t worry about them.

    The DOD spends roughly 80 billion on R&D in 2009. (It increased dramatically under president Bush. It was only 40 billion a year in 2001). Regardless. That’s a of money for R&D. I don’t know how much of that is the basic research labs that nuclearboy describes. But I would hate to see any defense cuts affect them. They have important spillover effects for the US economy as a whole. While I wish we didn’t have to classify them as “defense,” that does help keep some of those spillover effects in the US.

    The “jobs program” you’re describing is one of the procurement programs. I would be fine with them as veiled subsidies for Boeing. They need subsidies if they’re going to compete with the EU subsidized Airbus But it would be a lot more efficient if we could do it directly. And that way, we could stop them from contracting out important parts of their R&D and their assembly to other countries. Not to mention the associated technology transfer…


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (8:57 pm)

    I might win a $50 million lottery,

    Or Obama might buy me a new Volt,

    Odds are about the same.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:10 pm)

    Noel Park: I have it. Actually, I have quoted it here a number of times. Have your read his previous book “American Theocracy”? It took me a long time to work up the courage to read it, given the title, but it is really good, and sort of laid the groundwork for “Bad Money”.

    If you have the intestinal fortitude to read “The Sorrows of Empire”, I will take a crack at “End of Influence”. It’s only fair, LOL. I will give you a book report when I get finished.

    I haven’t read American Theocracy. Does it contain enough new information to make it worth reading as well? My general approach is to read an author’s newest work if they’re both on the same subject. Especially since he said he was summarizing the earlier one.

    For example, on water, I looked at Cadillac desert. But it was written in 1986 (And revised in 1993.) And I want to know what our situation is now. So I chose Water: The Fate of Our Most Precious Resource by Marq de Villiers. (2001) And the next book on my to read list is Unquenchable by Robert Glennon (2009).


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:20 pm)

    DonC: I definitely want one and I’d like it sooner or later. But if that doesn’t happen then I’m OK waiting. Like you I’m just happy that someone will have one but perhaps unlike you I’d like that someone to be me! How about yourself?

    Like many here. Whether to buy or not depends on financial condition. GM says that the price of gasoline is a factor in pricing the Volt. $20 a week on gas or $40 isn’t an issue to me. My focus is on the big picture. And the accumulative value of vehicles, like the Volt, getting in the garage of the world wide public.

    Many lust after Corvette. Or spend thousands to bling their Escalade. My ‘dream car’ is a small Voltec SUV. Useful, practical, and efficient.

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:24 pm)

    Jerome: Regarding Milton Friedman, I’m an economist by education and used to practically worship at Uncle Milty’s alter. But his theories were hatched in a time when world trade was pretty much limited to Europe, North America and later, Japan. Relative to today, the playing field was much more equal and pure free trade between those countries made sense. But when you put the Chinas of the world into the equation, who even without trade barriers have dismilar standards to ours (safety, pollution, etc.) that the Milton’s theories don’t work…at least not to our North American advantage which is what I care about most.

    Me too. And I bought it hook, line, and sinker. I even believed that Japan’s subsidies made us better off since we got to take advantage of their government subsidies. (They don’t.)

    The problem isn’t just China, by the way. Although they’re the worst and largest offender. It’s South Korea. Singapore. Taiwan. Malaysia. Ireland. Etc. Japan provided the model for all of them to follow. And each of them adds their own individual twists. And why not? It works.

    I’m also very worried about India, but for different reasons. Nowhere in the free trade orthodoxy does it account for that degree of outsourcing.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:30 pm)

    nuclearboy: I hear you on the large procurements. They are a problem. As you point out, it is good for Boeing (in the case you mention). The government does think this way. I see it all the time. Some things are funded that are not really important at the moment in order to keep a facility or company alive (with knowledgable staff in place) so that it will be around later for other purposes that may be more important or critical for our country.

    The solution is to stop spending more than we have and start pinching all programs to squeeze out inefficiencies. If we started trying to balance the budget, people would look much harder at everything.

    An across the board spending freeze would be a good start and then the elimination of programs should begin to actually start paying down the debt.

    Numerous presidents have tried to cut ineffective programs. It doesn’t seem to work out that well. As Gail Collins said in her recent NY Times column, there’s always someone who cares more about keeping the program than the Whitehouse does about getting rid of it.

    And, ultimately, in order to get rid of the deficit, we’re going to have to make tough choices. Raise the minimum age for social security. Cut the defense budget dramatically. And meaningful cost controls for medicare. Good luck with any of the above.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:37 pm)

    nuclearboy:
    There is resistance on these types of new designs.The Nuclear Reg. commission must license whatever is built and it will be tough to get a new design licensed.With years of expensive tests and tools (ie. saftey codes) developed for light water reactors, the NRC still takes years to license a plant.If a new design comes along, it will take years to develop the saftey tools and tests that are required so that the design review can be completed.This adds big costs and big delays and makes light water reactors a safer bet.Right now, of all the new applications in at the NRC, all are for light water reactors.The pebble bed keeps popping up but has not been formally submitted for an application because questions keep popping up that are not answerable without lots of testing and lots of $$.Right now, the country is supposed to be buildinig a next generation plant (either prismatic or pebble bed) high temperature gas reactor and that is going dismally slow.DOE has not even down selected a design yet.The application therefore, has not been submitted yet to the NRC.When and if it is, it will take double the time of a light water reactor to be approved.I look for this program to eventually be killed.So, the answer is, we may get a research program but to actually build a plant we need a very large and concentrated effort involving thousands of engineers.It would start at the DOE.Right now the DOE does have money for research in a broad range of areas and I have seen money for liquid metal reactors and the graphite high temperature reactors (like the pebble bed).The only hope of a new reactor in the next 10 years will come from the new light water reactors (ESBWR, APWR, AP1000, etc. etc.).It will take and act of congress to get anything else moving and these guys are tough to figure out.  

    Hi NB,
    I’d be very interested in your opinion. Is there anyway you think that the approval process could be streamlined safely? Is it a matter of too much bureaucracy or a simply a real need for every “approval” now in place as necessary for safety. I think it was you who shared how France saved time by using the same plant format over and over while we don’t? I really believe that nuclear power adds a lot to the clean power equation, but why do you think that the process takes so long?
    As an aside, my family lives about 100 miles UPwind of TMI and “we” were 7 months pregnant at the time of our little incident.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:37 pm)

    Tagamet: LOL, no they just own our emotional status and control our behavior, but other than that we’re totally unaffected.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Did you read my too long original post on the subject? Basically, IMHO, they have as much power over us as we let them have. If we keep going the way we have been, that will change. But if we stand up for ourselves right now and stop the bleeding, there’s nothing they can do about it.

    Of course, that means facing up to the consequences of our 30 year debt binge. And taking the economic pain. But we’re better off doing it sooner rather than later, IMHO.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (9:58 pm)

    LauraM:
    Did you read my too long original post on the subject?Basically, IMHO, they have as much power over us as we let them have.If we keep going the way we have been, that will change.But if we stand up for ourselves right now and stop the bleeding, there’s nothing they can do about it.Of course, that means facing up to the consequences of our 30 year debt binge.And taking the economic pain. But we’re better off doing it sooner rather than later, IMHO.  

    Yes, LauraM, I did read the other post(s). I was just teasing you a bit. Tongue in cheek stuff.
    I try to steer clear of commenting on the economic posts because so most of you are far more knowledgeable than I. In broad brush strokes I believe in lowering the national debt, and making *some* of the hard choices you mention (I differ on some and would add others). Toward that end I think term limits would help a great deal, because career politicians will *never* make those hard choices. I’m also more than a little concerned that we are approaching the point where the majority of voters pay no taxes, and many of the incentives to be productive have been lost. It’s amazing how slippery this comment slope gets! lol. I’ve said too much already – on so many levels (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:04 pm)

    guys, i have been a long time reader from australia and have posted randomly here and there, but im posting angain today to tell you from australia that i have seen hundreds of your Chevy Cruises on our roads here sold under the Holden brand! no joke. they must have been out here now for at least 3 – 4 months!. Chevy cruise is already here down under.Hope to see the Ampera here also under the Holden banner! or mabey even a Voltec platform Holden Commodore (its Australias #1 selling car last 14 yrs in a row!, for those unformiliar its a 4 door sedan, wagon or ute, available in v6 or 6.0L v8 and is RWD, <- best aspect of the car in my opinion) so why have we got your cruise b4 you?

    stuey east coast australia


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:17 pm)

    Tagamet #168 (and others). Sir, you are a true gem and a blessing to this web site and I’m sure to all those around you.
    Each and every one here seems to offer a lot, but all together it just goes nearly beyond words. Thank you all for being in my life. It really would be great to meet you guys and gals in person, but for now rest assured that you are like family.
    Be well everyone.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:20 pm)

    Tagamet: If the debut of the Volt in on OR ABOUT 9/11, I’m out. Horrible move. GM is smarter than that.

    Could happen. Then GM would have to demote the scheduler to Volt distribution manager.

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:23 pm)

    kdawg #18, I took your advice and emailed 4 Chevy dealers around Troy. I got 4 replies, one from a real person saying that they have a signup list and it sounded like they expected cars in September, but that was open to interpretation. Anyway this is PROGRESS.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:45 pm)

    JohnK: Tagamet #168 (and others).Sir, you are a true gem and a blessing to this web site and I’m sure to all those around you.
    Each and every one here seems to offer a lot, but all together it just goes nearly beyond words.Thank you all for being in my life.It really would be great to meet you guys and gals in person, but for now rest assured that you are like family.
    Be well everyone.  

    JohnK,
    Very kind and touching sentiments. I suspect that many of us share the feeling of family here. Lyle has provided the forum, but it’s the folks, even in all of our diversity, that have provided the community.
    Here’s hoping that there will be a VoltNation II and a chance for many of us to meet “IRL”. Even if that doesn’t happen, I think that many of us have grown, as you suggest – ineffably.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:48 pm)

    JohnK: kdawg #18, I took your advice and emailed 4 Chevy dealers around Troy.I got 4 replies, one from a real person saying that they have a signup list and it sounded like they expected cars in September, but that was open to interpretation.Anyway this is PROGRESS.  

    That’s HUGE progress! Congrats!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    LRGVProVolt

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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:48 pm)

    #143 Herm: Do we still have a tariff on foreign built pick up trucks?.. probably why Ford and GM based their wellbeing on them for so long.. unintended consequences and all that.

    I haven’t checked to see if anyone else had answered your question. The rate of pick up truck started at 25% in 1930 and dropped to 8.5% until the tariff war over the European Union blocking import of chickens from the U.S. In retaliation, the rate on pick up trucks was raised back to 25% and has protected the domestic industry ever since.

    I worked for U.S.Customs Service for many years enforcing trade agreements such as CFTA and then NAFTA. My associates and I enjoyed the challenge of finding a foreign company that didn’t qualify for the reduced rate. My career was made of finding fraud. Many companies in their import declaration often looked the other way when they knew their exports didn’t qualify. Yes, there were many companies that were honest but there were a lot that tried to increase profits by just taking the requirements for their product and claiming the reduced rate. The seriousness of the invalid declaration would vary from a mere clerical error all the way to a wanton violation with vary step penalties if proven. The fact that bothered me the most about NAFTA: we could select from all the imports of a companies product a sampling which we would then verify. We did a good job of targeting! 70% of what we verified didn’t qualify under the special rules of origin for that product. the problem came to the rest of the imports of the product of the company that we didn’t hold for verification. We weren’t allowed to go back and recover the lost revenue. Tariff rates became so reduced under trade agreements that U.S. Customs revenue collections became far less than the cost of operations to enforce the tariff laws. The Treasury Department no longer wanted U.S. Customs to be under their jurisdiction. So they were reorganized under the Home Land Security Department.

    Foreign manufacturers found that it was more profitable to set up shop in the U.S., and import the parts to assemble the pick up trucks; duty rates on parts were far far less than the 25% for the whole truck. It meant more jobs in the states who would be paying taxes, and more corporate taxes from the foreign subsidiary; these taxes far exceeded the duties that would have been collected, or so they thinking went. The 25% duty on pick up trucks in the beginning was an anger point for the Japanese vehicle manufacturers until they discovered how to beat the system. With all kinds of tax incentives by the county and state where they set up their assembly plants, they couldn’t loose. It equally applied to the assembly of cars.

    In the global economy, we have today, there is no place for high tariffs. Other factors such as open markets are important to fair competition. As far as Japan, my understanding is, there market is not open to U.S. products. As such, these practices by foreign countries should not be tolerated.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (10:57 pm)

    #186 Tagamet: Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS

    Be well my friend. :)

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:13 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    Be well my friend.
    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    Same to you buddy! You missed the *really* sappy stuff earlier (g). I can save you a lot of scrolling though – we just need a VoltNation II !

    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:18 pm)

    #190 Tagamet:
    Same to you buddy! You missed the *really* sappy stuff earlier (g). I can save you a lot of scrolling though – we just need a VoltNation II !Be well,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS   

    M ywife had me running errands today. lol. But my addiction made me drop by to see what was up. :)

    I looked at VoltNation briefly some time ago. Need to look there again. :)

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:18 pm)

    Anyone following the Super Bowl? The proposition bets are varied and plenty.

    How long will it take Carrie Underwood to sing the National Anthem?

    - Over 1 Minute and 42 Seconds
    - Under 1 Minute and 42 Seconds

    What color will the Gatorade be that is dumped on the head coach of the winning Super Bowl team?

    - Lime Green
    - Yellow
    - Orange
    - Red
    - Blue
    - Clear / Water

    How many times will CBS announcers fully mention Hurricane Katrina during the game?

    _________________________________

    Will GM run an ad during the Super Bowl? If so, we’re sure to see the Equinox and the Traverse.

    Here’s one for you GM: Show the Volt parked at a Shell station. With the driver using a clear hose to siphon gas back into the underground storage tank. When the driver of a V-8 walks over to ask “why”. Have the Volt driver reply, “I don’t need gasoline this week. No out of town trips planned”.

    Follow this up with the usual facts and numbers on battery range and home recharge. Who dat?

    =D~


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:33 pm)

    LauraM: DaveP said some stuff that didn’t import into this quote. Then I copied this:
    I find it horrifying that we’re importing food from China. That has to be a safety hazard. Even aside from their numerous quality control issues, just think about all that pollution.

    And, as an equity issue, they have much less arable land than we do, and a much higher population. And much less water per capita. So why are they exporting food? I could see some trade in exotic fruit that won’t grow here. But apples? And fish?

    It’s so everything. Horrifying is definitely the correct word. It’s like cans of beans and the powdered milk ingredients in cake packages, etc. I think they’ve just stopped labeling everything, actually, so you can’t even tell anymore. Even more depressing is the US used to be the breadbasket of the world. Now we still kind of are, but it seems like it’s like just a few staples, now. Wheat, Corn, maybe rice.


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:43 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    M ywife had me running errands today. lol.But my addiction made me drop by to see what was up.
    I looked at VoltNationbriefly some time ago. Need to look there again.
    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    Not so much an addiction, as one of life’s simple pleasures.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 5th, 2010 (11:58 pm)

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    Feb 6th, 2010 (5:05 am)

    why hasnt anyone replyed to my post, im not making it up. chevy cruise is here in australia and available, Tagament , dave K, lyle, you read every post here , can u shed some light?


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (6:47 am)

    hi stuey #182 …

    First of all thanks for listing my name as someone who can provide information on the subject. Goes without saying I am in no way affliated with GM or gm volt dot com web page. Just an EV enthusiast who feels the shift to Voltec is too big to be ignored. And a lover of freedom. Especially freedom of speech.

    __________________________________________

    The all-new Holden Cruze – a new benchmark for small cars. Designed from the ground up by GM personnel around the globe, we made sure the all-new Holden Cruze is great to drive, delivers outstanding fuel efficiency you expect, and has the highest levels of safety.

    Cruze%20Holden%20steering%20wheel.jpg

    The information pages I have seen state that the Holden Cruze and the later to be released “Chevy Cruze” are not the same car. This may be the simple answer to your question.

    Holden%20Cruze%20CDX.jpg

    An internet search shows the the newer Euro bonnet “Holden” Cruze. And a “Holden” Cruze with the pre-Euro hood(?).

    =D~


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (7:07 am)

    YesMan001: No guidelines on limiting or forbidding huge dealer markups?  

    Thank you for asking this one. This is an important issue for many of us. It was suggested previously a two and a half perent markup.
    I have a problem with opening that door, however slight.


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (7:10 am)

    Tagamet: Exciting times! Thanks Lyle, for the continued peek behind the curtain.I still strongly differ on *any* comments suggesting associating the Volt with 9/11.Fingers still crossed for something happening earlier than the official release date for sales to the consumer!As the excitement builds, it’s harder and harder to maintain patience, but it seems like we’re hearing something new and promising almost daily now!
    Be well,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS   

    I really concur with that completely Tag!!

    We ought not associate the ascendancy of Voltec with tragedy.
    We ought to associate Voltec with the enlightenment of an entirely new set of philosophies of peace and environmental survivabilities.


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (7:14 am)

    Tagamet:
    Under-promise, over- deliver. *I* have faith that AER 40 will be met with normal (read average) driving conditions. AER +40 won’t need to be downhill. JMO.
    Be well,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS   

    Tag,
    James did not consider that low end speeds are not what we will be driving the Volt at all the time as was the case in this parking lot test drive. Advancement in motor design in the next decade will help that a lot, but, any propulsion device that has to first overcome low speed inertias will not reflect the same energy efficiencies as how they are realisically utilized. We dont have a series of parking lots to drive through on the way to work every morning and one the way back home after work.


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (7:26 am)

    Hey Tag at #127,

    Thank you for sharing your history. It is really helpful to understand an important basis for a carefully thought out set of philosophies as are yours.
    Thank you again.
    Dan in Austin.


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (7:44 am)

    Pardon the brisk posts and spelling errors today. Have a long 12 hour seminar to teach today with some of the very brightest techs I’ve ever had the honor to get to know.
    (Enjoy the Superbowl tomorrow too.)
    (off to work. have a great day everyone!!)


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    DriveOn

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    Feb 6th, 2010 (8:20 am)

    Dave K.: The information pages I have seen state that the Holden Cruze and the later to be released “Chevy Cruze” are not the same car. This may be the simple answer to your question.

    The only major differences are that the Holden Cruze is RHD and currently being imported into Australia from GM Daewoo Korea.
    The Chevrolet Cruze is LHD and being built at GMs Lordstown Ohio plant.
    There may be minor differences in specification, trim, engine & trans options, but both vehicles are based on the GM global Delta II platform. (as is the Volt)

    The Holden Cruze has a bonnet / hood that looks very similar to the one on the latest pre-production Volts. I think that is called “Euro”
    There could be some confusion being caused by the previous generation Chevrolet/Holden Cruze which were rebadged Suzuki Ignis.
    It’s funny that every time I see a new Cruze on the road I automatically think Volt !


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (8:24 am)

    DriveOn: from GM Daewoo Korea.

    DriveOn: previous generation Chevrolet/Holden Cruze which were rebadged Suzuki Ignis.

    There you go stuey.

    =D~


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (8:36 am)

    I am sure the dealers will get a mixture of option packages.. but they may want the loaded ones only but have no choice.

    Special Dealer Prep — Application of Anti-Arcing Protectants $999


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (8:43 am)

    DriveOn: It’s funny that every time I see a new Cruze on the road I automatically think Volt !  

    We have to stop doing that, many cars share the same platform but yet they remain different.

    So what is actually a platform?.. the lower portions of the unitbody?.. the same suspension/driveline attachment points?.. obviously the Volt will have a huge hole where the battery goes that no other car using that platform will share.

    The meme for today is to compare the Volt with high end compact Mercedes/BMW/Audi cars.. not with a Cruze :)


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (8:45 am)

    I attempted to read all postings, but the wind in everyones mouth was strong, and my patience thin….

    OT: But, this Toyota issue could, in my opinion, really lead us down a path of new issues.

    The fact that the gov. is taking such a deep dive into Toyota quality and reliability, scares me. I understand that people need to be safe, and we need confidence that our cars will not kill us. But (you knew the BUT was coming), now the good ole gov. is going to be obliged to begin investigations into all the other manuf., including the US automakers.

    So, how long before we read reports that Ford and GM are having a similar safety issue, and they will need to recall millions of vehicles? At a time when the automakers are just scratching their way out of the past economic crash, this could really seal the deal for them. And guess what, we will be, once again, on the hook for bailing out the “to big to fail” companies.

    I am not sure what the correct response should be by our govt. but I am just saying, that we may find that this Toyota fiasco, may well end up spilling over into the big 2.1.

    When it comes to playing the “safety card”, it is both difficult and expensive to defend. If someone told you that you had a one in a million chance of the brakes failing in your car, do you stop driving? How about 1 in a billion? Is their any level of risk your willing to accept?

    Get ready for the next wave of govt safety reviews on ALL car makers. And get ready for a new govt “task force” to be created to seek out and solve the evils of automakers…..

    /just saying…


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (8:52 am)

    Herm: I am sure the dealers will get a mixture of option packages.. but they may want the loaded ones only but have no choice.Special Dealer Prep — Application of Anti-Arcing Protectants $999  

    Oh, yes!

    And I am sure you will see Billy Mays touting a new “Additive” that you can add to your Volt battery to clean out all those nasty ions that are plugging up your battery!”

    /well, unfortunately for Billy, he is no longer available, but maybe someone like Paris Hilton, could fill in


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (8:55 am)

    JEC: Get ready for the next wave

    That’s a solid observation JEC. I’m surprised Ginsu Knives haven’t been recalled for the dangerous edge on them. And don’t overlook paper clips. A choke hazard if there ever was one.

    =D~


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (9:09 am)

    Herm: dealers will get a mixture of option packages.. but they may want the loaded ones

    When shopping for a Prius in 2006. The only ones my wife and I could find were loaded with $4000 of options. Just wanted a basic economical car for my wife. Didn’t test drive the Prius. Not worth it at $26,000 sticker.

    __________________________

    Herm: compare the Volt with high end compact Mercedes/BMW/Audi cars.. not with a Cruze

    Fully agree. The Volt is comparable to a BMW or a Volvo. This is verified when you actually see the Volt up close. My first impression was “BMW”.

    =D~

    Volvo%20new.jpg
    Volvo


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (9:17 am)

    stuey: why hasnt anyone replyed to my post, im not making it up. chevy cruise is here in australia and available, Tagament , dave K, lyle, you read every post here , can u shed some light?  

    Hi stuey
    Sorry for not replying to your question, but I took it as a rhetorical question and that you were just being kind adding information from your part of the world.
    Looks like Dave K has beat me to an answer – and did a better job than I could have too! I share Dave’s “thanks” to you for mentioning us! Lyle has an inside track to GM info but the rest of us are just avid fans of the site/project. AFAIK no one here is employed by GM.
    Glad to have you on board!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (9:20 am)

    Dan Petit:
    Tag,James did not consider that low end speeds are not what we will be driving the Volt at all the time as was the case in this parking lot test drive. Advancement in motor design in the next decade will help that a lot, but, any propulsion device that has to first overcome low speed inertias will not reflect the same energy efficiencies as how they are realisically utilized. We dont have a series of parking lots to drive through on the way to work every morning and one the way back home after work.  

    Excellent physics based point. They say a strong swimmer can tow the Queen Mary II, once it gets STARTED.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (9:21 am)

    For those who are poo-pooing Toyota for such a quality gaffe, I challenge you to understand the exact problem that has occured ,and the correct fix to this problem.

    While the media plays this as “Gee, how could Toyota ever miss such an obvious quality problem”, the fact is that this problem is not simple, and was not obvious.

    When Toyota put stop order on new cars, it was not because they were trying to hide something. They wanted to solve the problem. Anyone in manuf. understands the magnitude of doing this.

    If the problem was obvious, the engineers would have immediately identified the issue and submitted the solution. The key was that the issues was a supplier quality issue, not a Toyota core design flaw. Yes, Toyota is responsible for the quality from its suppliers, but their is a limit to the scope of control.

    Yes, Toyota takes a quality perception hit on this problem. But, I highly advise the GM’s & Fords, to avoid casting the “quality stones”, since you may be next in line to have such an “obvious” defect slip through one of your suppliers.

    JEC: I attempted to read all postings, but the wind in everyones mouth was strong, and my patience thin….OT: But, this Toyota issue could, in my opinion, really lead us down a path of new issues.The fact that the gov. is taking such a deep dive into Toyota quality and reliability, scares me.I understand that people need to be safe, and we need confidence that our cars will not kill us.But (you knew the BUT was coming), now the good ole gov. is going to be obliged to begin investigations into all the other manuf., including the US automakers.So, how long before we read reports that Ford and GM are having a similar safety issue, and they will need to recall millions of vehicles?At a time when the automakers are just scratching their way out of the past economic crash, this could really seal the deal for them.And guess what, we will be, once again, on the hook for bailing out the “to big to fail” companies.I am not sure what the correct response should be by our govt. but I am just saying, that we may find that this Toyota fiasco, may well end up spilling over into the big 2.1.When it comes to playing the “safety card”, it is both difficult and expensive to defend.If someone told you that you had a one in a million chance of the brakes failing in your car, do you stop driving?How about 1 in a billion?Is their any level of risk your willing to accept?Get ready for the next wave of govt safety reviews on ALL car makers.And get ready for a new govt “task force” to be created to seek out and solve the evils of automakers…../just saying…  


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (9:29 am)

    volt%202010%20photo.jpg

    volt-pack-2010.jpg

    =D~


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (9:35 am)

    Dan Petit: Hey Tag at #127, Thank you for sharing your history.It is really helpful to understand an important basis for a carefully thought out set of philosophies as are yours.Thank you again.
    Dan in Austin.  

    I’ve held a major debate with myself before sharing that stuff for a very long time. The potential negative effect on the group held the upper hand until all the stars seemed to align – bad day for me and all the national negativity (largely true and necessary) accruing here yesterday. So *I* needed some self therapy, even at others potential expense and for that I’m sorry and sincerely apologize.
    Enough of that stuff now, and on to the VOLT!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (9:42 am)

    Dan Petit: Pardon the brisk posts and spelling errors today.Have a long 12 hour seminar to teach today with some of the very brightest techs I’ve ever had the honor to get to know.
    (Enjoy the Superbowl tomorrow too.)
    (off to work.have a great day everyone!!)  

    A 12 hour shift and I’ll bet that you’ll STILL be back (lol).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (10:10 am)

    People we meet have so many stories that we fail to see or understand.

    My family also has the tendency to exit early. My wife’s family is the opposite, and many live well into their 90′s. We joke about how ironic it would be for me to out live her, but in reality I pray to be first (a little morbid in ways, but very true).

    Take care Tag, and keep up the battle. It is a battle worth fighting.

    So, for us, getting the Volts wheels on the ground is more imporant, in specific ways, if you know what I mean…(Hurry GM, before I miss the opportunity to take a test drive)

    GO VOLT!

    Tagamet: WOW! I had to scroll all the way to the top to confirm that this thread was about good news! Such a depressive turn it’s taken. Granted, it’s all very interesting stuff and I (always) learn a lot but…I know things aren’t very rosy on a lot of fronts, and on a lot of levels it’s good to “get it out” – to ventilate, but we’re blessed in many ways TOO.
    Personal example (my turn to ventilate). *Everyone* in my family dies ~age 55 or younger from something vascular. All grandparents, 6 uncles, parents, sister (with 5 kids only made it to 42). BUT I’m in my 60’s! Yes, I’ve done a lot prophylactically re my heart – base EKG’s., Stress EKG’s, MRI’s for aneurysms,blood work every 6 months, great cholesterol, etc. Not only am I the first to get past the gloomy 50’s, I’m the first in my entire family to live long enough to get cancer! (LOL). BUT I’m in the process of beating that and this July 18th will mark my 5 years out from the original surgery. I know this all falls into the category of TOO MUCH INFO, but I just had a need to make a point. I *know* the negative things need to be discussed in order to make progress, but at some point we need to also take stock and recognize some of the positives.
    We live in a great country! Flaws? Sure, but do more people leave our country than try to sneak in? Nope, quite the opposite – people risk everything to get in. Maybe there’s a message there.
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    /sometimes even shrinks need to ventilateLet’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS   


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (10:27 am)

    JEC: People we meet have so many stories that we fail to see or understand.My family also has the tendency to exit early.My wife’s family is the opposite, and many live well into their 90’s.We joke about how ironic it would be for me to out live her, but in reality I pray to be first (a little morbid in ways, but very true).Take care Tag, and keep up the battle.It is a battle worth fighting.So, for us, getting the Volts wheels on the ground is more imporant, in specific ways, if you know what I mean…(Hurry GM, before I miss the opportunity to take a test drive)GO VOLT!
      

    My wife and I have the same agreement! (I get to “go” first – LOL). I dearly appreciate your kind words, and yes, it does tend to add a sense of urgency to getting those wheels on the road! (G). I’m not going anywhere anytime soon (on so many levels!) and if I do it’ll be ok (great comfort in that).
    And I always DO mean it when I close with….
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’ * * * Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dave K.

     

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    Feb 6th, 2010 (11:06 am)

    How about a new Volvo?

    Volvo_new.jpg

    Well, maybe not.

    =D~


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    nuclearboy

     

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    Feb 6th, 2010 (12:05 pm)

    JEC: I *know* the negative things need to be discussed in order to make progress, but at some point we need to also take stock and recognize some of the positives.
    We live in a great country! Flaws? Sure, but do more people leave our country than try to sneak in? Nope, quite the opposite – people risk everything

    Tag,

    You are right on. We live with a severely flawed government system that just happens to be better than all of the alternatives.

    We just like to complain because we know we can be even better.


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    LauraM

     

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    Feb 6th, 2010 (12:22 pm)

    DaveP: It’s so everything. Horrifying is definitely the correct word. It’s like cans of beans and the powdered milk ingredients in cake packages, etc. I think they’ve just stopped labeling everything, actually, so you can’t even tell anymore. Even more depressing is the US used to be the breadbasket of the world. Now we still kind of are, but it seems like it’s like just a few staples, now. Wheat, Corn, maybe rice.

    The US is not in any danger whatsoever of becoming “food dependent” on any other nation. Certain things we don’t have the proper climate to grow. We could still grow them in greenhouses. Maybe. But it’s a lot easier to import, say, Vanilla, from Madagascar and Tahiti. (Mexico also grows Vanilla, but there’s a lot of counterfeiting going on. And fake vanilla is dangerous.) .

    If you want local fruit and vegetables. Go to a greenmarket. They have them all over the country. And you can find loads of great seasonal produce that goes well beyond corn wheat, and rice. (All of which are high value crops, by the way.)

    In terms of luxury goods–the US has a world class wine industry in California and Oregon. There’s wine grown in each of the 50 states. We also make some really good cheeses. We operate at a disadvantage because our government outlaws raw milk cheese that hasn’t been aged a certain amount. But there are still some very respectable competitive cheeses made here in the US. I’ve heard that we’ve started truffle production in Oregon. We even have a growing farmed caviar industry.


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    LauraM: I haven’t read American Theocracy. Does it contain enough new information to make it worth reading as well?

    LauraM: For example, on water, I looked at Cadillac desert. But it was written in 1986 (And revised in 1993.)

    #175

    I picked up American Theocracy because I thought that it might be kind of fun as an analysis of the connection between Bush/Rove and the right wing religious movement. About 1/3 of it is just that, 1/3 covers “Debt”, which sort of foreshadows “Bad Money”, and 1/3 of it is a fascinating take on the future of oil and it’s ramifications for the U.S. So there was a lot more to it than I expected. It’s notable that Phillips was a speechwriter and political strategist for Ronald Regan, which puts his take on Bush in an interesting perspective.

    As a CA resident, I love Cadillac Desert. They taught it in my son’s Environmental Science classes at Humboldt State, and he sent it to me for Xmas, LOL. It is as topical in CA as it was in 1986, because the same old water developments fights go on here now, just as they did then. A perfect example is the proposed Temperance Flat dam on the San Joaquin River, upstream of Friant dam. Estimated cost, $3 BILLION. The Public Policy Institute of CA recently published a paper which found that enough impoundment already exists on the San Joaquin to contain the entire historical flow of the river. In fact, the San Joaquin has been dry downstream of Friant for over 50 years. The more things change, the more they remain the same.


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (1:06 pm)

    Tagamet: Well, Yoda was definitely a “spirited” individual. I think that he might have been a Methodist though…

    #172

    Not to restate the obvious, but I knew all along that “the wise one” was you. It’s just that you had quoted Yoda earlier, so ……..


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (1:10 pm)

    Noel Park: And BTW, my wife is struggling with Stage 4 breast cancer, so I have some understanding of, and total empathy for, what you have gone through and continue to go through. Some how we have to dig down and find the courage and strength to carry on in all of these arenas.

    I’m really sorry to hear about your wife. I can’t even imagine what you must be going through. I will also pray for her recovery.


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (1:15 pm)

    nuclearboy: I have a wife with Lymphoma and I when I hear of these things I am hit hard because I know some of the issues and fears. Tag has wonderful advice and I can simply say that being positive is a big help. I too will add a prayer.

    I’m amazed that people can stay positive when going through that type of ordeal. It kind of puts the issues in my own life in perspective. I hope and pray that she recovers.


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (2:00 pm)

    LauraM: And, ultimately, in order to get rid of the deficit, we’re going to have to make tough choices. Raise the minimum age for social security. Cut the defense budget dramatically. And meaningful cost controls for medicare. Good luck with any of the above.

    #178

    Good luck indeed, but it does have to happen. We may disagreed in detail on many issues, but on these basic truths I am with you 100% +1


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (2:04 pm)

    stuey: so why have we got your cruise b4 you?

    #182

    They have it in Europe and India as well. India? Go figure. Nice to hear from our friends in Aus. Welcome. +1


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (2:06 pm)

    JohnK: Tagamet #168 (and others). Sir, you are a true gem and a blessing to this web site and I’m sure to all those around you.
    Each and every one here seems to offer a lot, but all together it just goes nearly beyond words. Thank you all for being in my life. It really would be great to meet you guys and gals in person, but for now rest assured that you are like family.
    Be well everyone.

    #183

    Beautifully put. Thank you. Amen. +1


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (2:17 pm)

    JEC: So, how long before we read reports that Ford and GM are having a similar safety issue, and they will need to recall millions of vehicles?

    #207

    It has actually happened numerous times in the past, both to Ford and GM. Folks above mentioned the infamous Explorer rollover episode and the Pinto gas tank fiasco. GM has had a couple too. It’s just the turn of “holier than thou” Toyota in the barrel. That’s why I keep advising GM not to crow too loud. What goes around comes around.


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (2:25 pm)

    Tagamet: I’ve held a major debate with myself before sharing that stuff for a very long time. The potential negative effect on the group held the upper hand until all the stars seemed to align – bad day for me and all the national negativity (largely true and necessary) accruing here yesterday. So *I* needed some self therapy, even at others potential expense and for that I’m sorry and sincerely apologize.

    #215

    Me too, but don’t be sorry. +1

    Many thanks to all for your good wishes re Diana. They are deeply appreciated.

    This has been a great thread, even if largely OT, LOL. I am constantly reminded of Jean-Charles Jacquemin’s famous comment, so many months ago, about forums like this drawing us together from around the world, and allowing us to bypass the spin and obfuscation which so often emanate from our “leadership”. Never a better example than today, IMHO.

    Well done and very best regards to all.


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (2:27 pm)

    Dave K.: Well, maybe not.

    #219

    You got that right! +1


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    Feb 6th, 2010 (11:47 pm)

    I will be meeting with my local Chevy dealer Monday morning to discuss a pre-order. They want $500 to get put on the list. I will ask about mark ups, etc. Will have to figure out if there is a risk of being on two lists (a dealer in Columbus Ohio has money to have me on their list – supposedly refundable). Not sure if there is anything ethically wrong with going for two lists. Any comments about that?


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    Feb 7th, 2010 (6:05 pm)

    Time to call my dealer and get on a tickle list! WOOHOO!!


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    Voltage Increases As Job #1 Approaches | GM Authority

     

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    Feb 8th, 2010 (9:35 am)

    [...] [Source: Autoblog via GM-Volt.com] [...]


  235. [...] model year ordering guide the brass sent to dealers, and it says that’s the day GM plans to begin building production models of the Chevrolet Volt. The General always has said the Volt will roll off the line by the end of [...]


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    First Chevrolet Volt Rolls Off The Line Nov. 1 « Coolbeans

     

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    Feb 9th, 2010 (8:43 am)

    [...] model year ordering guide the brass sent to dealers, and it says that’s the day GM plans to begin building production models of the Chevrolet Volt. The General always has said the Volt will roll off the line by the end of [...]


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    Doyle Gause

     

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    Feb 12th, 2010 (8:02 pm)

    Hi, i must say fantastic blog you have, i stumbled across it in Bing. Does you get much traffic?


  238. [...]  |  GM-Volt  | Email this | Comments Categories: Technology Tags: Comments (0) [...]