What a difference a year makes. The domestic auto industry (forgetting Fiatsler for a moment) is seemingly firing on all cylinders, while Toyota and Honda are hitting road bump after road bump. Which begs the question, can GM take advantage?
For years a trip to the doctor or dentist’s office meant the forced perusal of endless stacks of historical Consumer Reports magazines (unless you really fancied reading May 2006 Issue of Soap Opera Digest). This also meant you were generally treated to a glowing report on Toyota’s latest people mover (unless you were talking about the Tundra), which was usally summed up by a comparison to a similar, but ultimately unfavorable product from Detroit.
To be fair, a good bulk of the criticism was well deserved, but most would agree that the gap has narrowed significantly over time as Toyota has struggled with pressure of being both the number one manufacturer in the world and holding onto the crown for quality and reliability.
Very often public perception is a market-trailing result, gained from a historical experience with a product and does not accurately reflect today’s reality. It takes time for sentiment to change, and in the auto business that can be a very, very long time. A fact GM knows all too well…but sometimes a perfect storm of events lead to things changing in a hurry.
Enter a nationally focused recall and production shut down at Toyota, coupled with a resurgent Detroit auto manufacturing base, and you have some real momentum to change the public’s mind.
Toyota has been dogged by claims of a stuck accelerator pedal for months leading up to this week; at first they claimed it really wasn’t a big deal, didn’t exist, that no real accidents of any significance had occurred, and that maybe it was just floor mat in the end…basically they did whatever they could do to contain the damage.
However, the floodgates opened when the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration got involved and claims started coming to the surface on hundreds of accidents. Eventually, millions of cars were recalled, and contrary to what Toyota would have you believe, they were federally mandated to stop production on 8 models until a fix was submitted and approved by the NHTSA.
Throwing even more gasoline on the fire, we now have a House panel holding a hearing at the end of next month, requesting documents from the automaker and the NHTSA about everything they know on it, referencing “persistent consumer complaints of sudden unintended acceleration,” all but guaranteeing the issue stays at the forefront of the news.
When you start hearing statements from the Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman like, “I am concerned by the seriousness and scope of Toyota’s recent recall announcements…our hearing will help us better understand how quickly and effectively Toyota and the NHTSA responded to consumer complaints about the safety of the recalled Toyota vehicles,” you know it has gone past the point of no return.
These 8 production halted models at Toyota account for roughly 6 out of every 10 vehicles sold by the Japanese automaker…which means if you have bought a Toyota car in the last half decade or so, the thought of involuntarily charging into traffic has, at the very least, crossed your mind…and that is not a good thing for Toyota. The only thing worse for Toyota would have been if the recall/stop work order included their flagship Prius…or if Michael Phelps was in a head on collision in one and could never swim for the US again.
Has the focus and criticism of Toyota gotten out of control? Yes. Is it fair to Toyota and the image they have worked so hard to gain over the past couple decades? Probably not. But that is the way it is…and that is the business reality that GM knows all too well of late.
Couple the hit Toyota has taken on its image, with the massive loss they took last year fiscally, along with its gloomy forecast for the coming year and put it up against Detroit’s new found renaissance and you would think it was Toyota that was in trouble.
Conversely, GM now has a clean balance sheet, a forecast of profitability, and potentially a car in the Volt that could steal the thunder from the leader of ‘all things green’ in the Prius. While, the other half of the Detroit equation (Ford) also just finished reporting a 2.7 billion dollar profit for 2009, increased market share, and had a fantastic 4th quarter. (although don’t look behind the curtain too much at that gross negative cash flow, or 1.3B loss from automotive operations…but I digress)
Toyota’s Japanese counterpart Honda has had its own share of troubles. On Friday it announced the recall of some 600,000 cars and has been soundly panned for its abysmal attempt in the strong hybrid market with the Insight (I myself walked from a $500 deposit at my local dealer when specifics/reviews on the car began coming to light). Not to mention introducing what I feel is the ugliest car of the new millennium, the Crosstour. (what the heck is that thing anyway?) Lets just say the new Civic can’t come soon enough for them, and leave it at that.
By no means is General Motor’s all the way back, and I don’t expect to see them atop all the JD Power ratings next year, or even on the cover of Consumers Reports the next time I sit down at my dentist’s office, but they have come along way in a short time.
How has GM reacted to the touble at Toyota? Well…while Toyota has been in a production shutdown, they have been adding salt to the wound by offering (albeit on the ‘down-low’) an additional $1,000 to any current Toyota owner to make the switch…on top of the (on average) $4,000+ in incentives already in play.
/twist the knife GM…twist the knife
Sidenote: It is reported that Toyota believes they have a solution for the gas pedal problem; a small spacer that would increase tension on the accelerator and (hopefully) cause it to not remain in a depressed position. Due to the NHTSA’s involvement, it must first be approved by them before production will resume.
This entry was posted on Saturday, January 30th, 2010 at 8:43 am and is filed under Competitors, Op-ed. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Jan 30th, 2010 (8:49 am)Yes, also for Ford.. but it is a temporary gain and GM cant afford to falter in the drive to make competitive and reliable cars. Toyota has a lot a good will stored up over the decades and it will take a lot to shake them off the top.. probably a decade of troubles like they are suffering now.
+8
Jan 30th, 2010 (8:53 am)I’m looking forward to the US automotive companies gaining some market share at Toyota’s expense.
+3
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:01 am)I think we may be a little early in celebrating toyota’s demise. I’m all for the Volt but lets see what problems develop with it before we celebrate.
+8
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:03 am)Yes, Toyota’s reputation is tarnished, however that doesn’t automatically raise GM’s reputation. GM will have to prove their improvement for several years before some buyers are convinced. Off to work.
+4
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:08 am)Oh come on – What does this article have to do with the Volt or electric cars in general – It’s just Toyota bashing, at this point… I don’t always agree with Toyota, and I really, really wish they did a plugin Prius sooner, but hey.. It’s their loss..
So, in in effort to thread jack this, to something remotely related to electric cars – How about the below…
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/29/wait-what-tesla-to-kill-the-roadster-in-2011/
To quote SNL – “Now talk amoung yourselves and discuss”…
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:09 am)“Fiatsler”
“Not to mention introducing what I feel is the ugliest car of the new millennium, the Crosstour. (what the heck is that thing anyway?) ”
“(although don’t look behind the curtain too much at that gross negative cash flow, or 1.3B loss from automotive operations…but I digress)”
“/twist the knife GM…twist the knife”
posted by Lyle?
No way, can’t fool me. This has Static written all over it. I was wondering when the Ford:Behind the Numbers would be coming.
GM (and Ford) do appear to be finally catching some breaks. This is also happening as the SAAR seems to be returning to more natural levels.
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:12 am)My apologies for the initial author error – it is Statik’s work – author’s name now appears correctly
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:13 am)vary true GM has tp prove that in the market place ..as usual they spend $$$ on ads which they cud shift to quality production ..plus GM cud take the lead by bringing Volt 2-4 months earlier than planned ..there will be nothing in the market to compete with …
+9
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:27 am)Very timely statik.
I’m sure our Toyota Troll will feel compelled to chime in on the subject.
He seems even more rabid lately. I’m guessing that’s from chemical exposure to Toyota Approved Throttle Lubricant or the physical stress of constantly repositioning his floor mats.
“Oh, what a feeling !”
+5
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:29 am)Stones should not be tossed unless you can afford to catch a few yourself.
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:42 am)Statik, you almost sound like an optimist.
+2
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:43 am)“Unintended acceleration” all but killed Audi in the North American market in the early 80s. I worked for a VW/Audi dealer at the time, and the 60 Minutes smear programme tanked sales. For years. Let’s see if 60 Minutes does a similar job on Toyota, although perhaps this time they have a real story, not something they manufactured. Then let’s see if the Toyota faithful shrug it off.
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:43 am)“It is reported that Toyota believes they have a solution for the gas pedal problem; a small spacer that would increase tension on the accelerator”
It’s very fortunate for Toyota that a simple spacer gets them out of the woods on the recall. They will be picking up 1000′s of brake jobs and oil changes in the process.
=D~
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:45 am)Don’t be silly, no need to apologize. I assumed it was a default user thingy and just poking fun at the contrast in writing style. If anything, I need to apologize for hacking Statik’s handle yet again. Sorry ’bout that Statik..attic..fofatic..matik..
-43
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:58 am)(click to show comment)
+5
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:00 am)“It is reported that Toyota believes they have a solution for the gas pedal problem”
I should hope so. There are millions of cars with gas pedals and I think most of them work. Maybe take a look at one of those.
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:01 am)This is more a fender bender than a head on for Toyota. It still makes fundamentally good vehicles — a bit stodgy maybe — and it has a clean balance sheet. No doubt it can weather this storm, though no doubt its reputation has taken a hit. In this regard, I don’t think we’ll be seeing any posts here about how great Toyota quality is for a while.
Personally I’m more concerned with Ford and its uncompetitive balance sheet. Ford is doing a great job operationally but it has an albatross hanging around its neck. Hopefully it can address this issue going forward. Seems to me that given Toyota’s reputation for quality and its clean balance sheet, it’s better positioned moving forward than Ford is, despite Ford’s great progress on both the design and the quality front.
+4
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:03 am)When you’re the #1 automaker – Toyota- you have a big target painted on your back.
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:04 am)Good article. I think in a little bit of time most will forgive and forget this episode with Toyota. People’s memories are so very short. The real challenge for GM will be to again, again, and again build/develop/and market vehicles that are top shelf. They won’t and shouldn’t for that matter “win” at the expense of someone else’s loss. I hope and expect GM to “bring it” with great cars and trucks. That’s the way to get on top and stay there IMO.
Statik: I would like to hear your thoughts some time on Ford too if you’re not too busy.
-36
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:05 am)(click to show comment)
+3
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:05 am)Maybe the Universe is giving Japan a payback for the type of behavior described in this excellent article:
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
-13
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:10 am)(click to show comment)
+6
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:21 am)if they can’t fix a gas pedal , they should start a diaper service and get out of the car business. Its a a gas pedal for chris sakes not a cure for cancer, even the plug in electric they are working on is pathetic.
I felI for the hype once, owned a tacoma 1999 , worst piece of rust i ever put tons of money into,never again.
+4
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:33 am)Toyota quality was hoax! (Sorry I couldn’t help myself)
+2
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:35 am)A similar stuck accelerator issue occurred to Audi years ago. Maybe Toyota could pay Audi to share their findings or solution. Scratch that thought, they probably already have their engineers scouring the web for the solution since they can’t think of one themselves.
Original thought is not abundant at Toyota.
NPNS!
+3
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:35 am)______________________________________________________
#5 GuyMan said:
“Oh come on – What does this article have to do with the Volt or electric cars in general – It’s just Toyota bashing, at this point…”
————-
It has everything to do with the Volt.
Simply put, GM will be able to sell more Volts if consumer perception is that GM builds cars of equal or greater quality than Toyota.
With regards to GuyMan’s claim that Statik was Toyota bashing, actually Statik magnanimously provided Toyota some charity:
“…Has the focus and criticism of Toyota gotten out of control? Yes. Is it fair to Toyota and the image they have worked so hard to gain over the past couple decades? Probably not. But that is the way it is…and that is the business reality that GM knows all too well of late…:
Statik,
That was an excellent post…unique writing style, entertaining, informative, thought provoking, a small serving of optimism on the side balanced with a hint of doubt…what more could someone ask for? Thanks.
______________________________________________________
+4
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:35 am)I think this problem Toyota is having right now is indicative of ALL manufacturers over-electronic’fying (I make the word up) the automobile.
Throttles should ALWAYS be connected to the gas pedal with a mechanical linkage, not through a computerized software program. Ignition switches should ALWAYS kill power to the ignition directly, not through a computerized software program. Shift levers should ALWAYS be connected to the transmission through a cable or linkage, not through a computerized software program.
Do you understand where this is going. If your throttle sticks for whatever reason, (mine has several times), you can turn the car off or if all else fails, shove the damn thing in neutral. A blown motor is better than driving a wheel chair with your tongue the rest of your life.
All software has bugs. ALL SOFTWARE. It is impossible to test every possible condition a complex computer system may encounter. Remember too, cars are exposed to the worst possible environment for electronics. Temperature swings from -20 F to +120 F are common. Cars are always wet, and often snow and slush covered. Nobody knows what will happen if, say the windshield leaks, drips water behind the dash, gets the body control module wet, causes a short down the line to the power train control module…….DISASTER. I’m a big electronic junkie but somethings need to be mechanical. Lets face it. Crashes are mechanical and I don’t want my black box under the dash causing one unnecessarily.
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:46 am)Amen – to solo #27……. I like my 69 mustang. It’s dumb and fast and does what I tell it. Now if I could get a telsa roadster motor and controller and batteries and a volts range extender …………ummmm……..
+2
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:47 am)Perception of reliability is an interesting topic. On the one side we have media coverage of recalls and the problems that initiated the recall. But the recall numbers do not equate with folks who have experienced any problem with their vehicle. They may not even experience the added hassle of an extra trip to the dealer, the problem might be fixed during a routine service with little extension of the time involved.
On the other hand, we have those pesky Consumer Reports reliability surveys which reflect individuals who have actually experienced problems, even though many if not most were unrelated to any recall issue.
As can be seen by the graphs, retention rates reflect how a person fared with their individual vehicle, because the top two in reliability per CR are the top two in retention.
Bottom line, to second what some said above, the report of Toyota’s death has been greatly exaggerated. But it is too early to tell if the wound is serious enough to impact retention.
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:56 am)Not only is this site informative, it is very entertaining. VERY.
-7
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:56 am)#26 CDAVIS —It has everything to do with the Volt.Simply put, GM will be able to sell more Volts if consumer perception is that GM builds cars of equal or greater quality than Toyota.
Get real – It’s going to be 18-24 months AFTER november before before GM makes enough Volts to sell, period, – they are releasing to 3 markets – there will be notable dealer markup due to the limited supply – All this is with or without the Toyota bashing. – Perhaps Toyota’s recalls may help sell more Malibus, but it does nothing for the Volt or electric cars in general – All car companies have recalls.. Period. None of the helps helps to make Volts faster (read more of them) or Cheaper (read Gen2)
CDAVIS – what more could someone ask for?
How about the VOLT (note the relationship of the question to the car that the blog is named after) CS mileage after the battery depletion point – We’re down to about 8-10 months till they release for to external customers – surely, they have a sense of the CS mileage now?
Better yet – better get those Telsa’s while you can – Looks like a “long dry’” spell to the model-S comes out…
Bah…
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:59 am)What is going on at Tesla? The post above sounds like it could be ominous. Or is it just a hiccup/timing problem with a model changeover?
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:07 am)What is the albatross that is Ford’s problem? It seems like the news from Ford has been all good lately.
+10
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:11 am)Smells like bull ***t. I don’t think the NHTSC considers this “voluntary”. Do I also smell steamed troll?
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:14 am)I think all US automakers can take advantage of this perceived slip in Toyota quality. The general public does not spend a lot of time thinking about automotive production quality – we tend to form quick opinions based on news, and stories we hear from friends and relatives. A negative opinion is formed much more quickly than a positive opinion. Once an opinion is formed we hold onto it and move on. I think when the Volt comes out, barring any recalls, the fervent first wave of owner stories about what an awesome car it is will go a long way to restoring faith in American production quality. A few YouTube videos of a Volt off the line versus a Corvette will help as well. ; )
+2
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:17 am)Hey guys, let’s stick to the high road. We don’t want to sink to the level of trolls ourselves.
As Tag would say, “Be Well”
LJGTVWOTR – NPNS
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:18 am)Gee, 5th post and a thread jack. That’s got to be some kind of a record. (g)
On a positive note, Thanks Static for the article! Well done. I enjoy the “behind the curtain” looks you provide.
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:21 am)LOL, I didn’t even LOOK at the author!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+4
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:23 am)______________________________________________________
#31 GuyMan said:
“…All this is with or without the Toyota bashing. – Perhaps Toyota’s recalls may help sell more Malibus, but it does nothing for the Volt or electric cars in general…”
————
GuyMan,
With all due respect, you remind me of one of those dogs that enthusiastically chasses his own tail…lol. Statik nowhere in his article is “bashing” Toyota.
As I pointed out in my #26 post, Statik was charitable to Toyota by Statik saying that Toyota’s image was getting hammered harder than it should be as a result of the massive Toyota recall.
By the way, I’m glad to hear you believe GM will sell more Malibus as a result of the massive Toyota recalls…that will afford GM to be even more aggressive with the rollout of the Voltec Program.
_____________________________________________________
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:24 am)ONLY if it’s already spot on perfect should it be released early. Then the Independence Day release makes a lot of sense.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:30 am)Very good observations. I am a lifelong software developer and I agree with most of what you said. There are many aircraft that fly by wire, many with no pilot in the cockpit (many with no cockpit). Yes, there are BOUND to be problems. I have no objection to a computer controlled throttle (is that really part of this problem – I thought that it was the mechanical linkage that was the problem). But, yes, if a critical component is software controlled then there MUST be a failsafe way to shut it down or work around it. I suspect that the Volt will have its share of bugs. I sincerely hope and believe that if the architecture is well designed these bugs will have minimal damage.
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:34 am)I see your point but the demand to reduce pollution and increase fuel economy has driven all these electronic advances.. I think it was the mid 70′s when they first started putting electronic gizmos that interfered with the throttle position.
You realize a BEV will be fully electronic by its nature?.. you probably want one of those franskestein knife kill switch somewhere in the Volt
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:35 am)Why not wait until the CS mpg is tested in the spring? There is no “upside” to announcing it early. JMO
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:38 am)Yes, this is a great case for IP blocking.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:41 am)EXCELLENT post, JohnK! Sometimes it gets lonely playing “hall monitor” (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:41 am)Electric car maker Tesla Motors plans IPO
says will hold initial public offering; no date set yet for stock sale
Friday January 29, 2010, 6:56 pm EST
NEW YORK (AP) — Electric car manufacturer Tesla Motors Inc. said Friday it plans to sell stock to the public.
The company, based in Palo Alto, Calif., did not disclose in a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission specifically how much it plans to raise though it listed $100 million as a placeholder figure. The actual amount it raises could be higher.
Tesla also did not give a date for when it plans to launch the IPO, nor did it say how many shares it would sell or at what price.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Electric-car-maker-Tesla-apf-2378239160.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=5&asset=&ccode=
=D~
+4
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:58 am)I’ve had no problems with my 2006 Prius, and got as much as 53 MPG during our last family vacation. Rather than crowing about Honda and Toyota’s recent misfortunes (how many millions of Big Three vehicles been the subject of recalls?) the Detroit auto manufacturers should concentrate on producing cars and trucks whose engineering, reliability, and styling beat those of the Asian companies. The Ford Focus Hybrid and Chevy Volt show just what we are capable of achieving.
+11
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:58 am)Below is some helpful advice on how to best help the U.S. economy by spending your stimulus check wisely:
1. If you spend the stimulus money at Wal-Mart, your money will go to China.
2. If you spend it on gasoline, your money will go to Saudi Arabia.
3. If you purchase a computer, it will go to India.
4. If you purchase fruit and vegetables, it will go to Mexico, Honduras or Guatemala.
5. If you buy a car, it will go to Japan or Korea.
6. If you purchase useless plastic stuff, it will go to Taiwan.
7. If you pay off your credit cards, or buy stock, it will go to pay management bonuses and be hidden in offshore accounts.
Or, you can keep the money in America by:
1. spending it at yard sales or flea markets,
or
2. going to baseball or football games,
or
3. hiring prostitutes,
or
4. buying cheap beer
or
5. getting tattoos.
These are the only wholly-American-owned businesses still operating in the U.S.
Conclusion:
The best way to stimulate the economy is to go to a ball game with a prostitute that you met at a yard sale and drink beer all day until you’re drunk enough to go get tattooed.
_____________________________
That hurts just reading it. I suggest buying an electric drive car next year from Ford or GM. An American made car running on American generated electricity.
=D~
+3
Jan 30th, 2010 (12:06 pm)I think Toyota got big from many lucky factors—- not from what I would call as being smarter. They’ve had many strokes of luck in getting as big as they are. When they came to the USA, they made only small cars and they were really junk. I learned the hard way by owning two them, which happens to be the worse cars of my life. The reason I bought those cars was because Consumer Report raved about them and gave American cars bad ratings.
Gas prices went crazy in the late 70′s and being Toyota made only small cars, they gained more of the American market. Another stroke of luck. Then, Toyota was perceived as a company that knows what people want. What a laugh!
What is happening today with Toyota is nothing compared to what happened to Ford and GM from years back. I remember 60 minute showing a video of an old GM truck being hit broad sided and purposely using an explosive device to cause the truck to catch on fire. I’d love to see an enactment of a Toyota with “sudden acceleration”.
Below is a link, which makes for good reading, at how the Japanese industries got where they are at today.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
+2
Jan 30th, 2010 (12:14 pm)OR you could drive to the ballpark in your Volt….(just kidding and I hope that there is a designated driver for this plan).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+8
Jan 30th, 2010 (12:20 pm)Even though Consumer Reports gets trashed by some, I have relied on their input for just about all my purchases. I would have to agree with most of their reviews. I have been a loyal subscriber for many years, and I have clearly noticed a shift from praising the usuals…Toyota, Honda… to pointing out their faults as well. Over the past 2-3 years Consumer Reports has slowly been giving the Domestics credit where credit is due. I wouldn’t not entirely rule out some bias on occassion, but as most would agree the Big Three started slipping and the imports were “in general” building better cars. Having said this, being a car buff, and always keeping an open mind, I have traditionally recommended the imports for family and friends…Honda Accords, Toyota Camrys, Nissan Altimas and so forth depending on price range. But the last few years I have been recommending Chevy Malibus, Ford Fusions, the GM trios of Outlooks, Acadias, and Traverse and the fairly new Equinox over the imports in their respected categories. Most of my family and friends do a double take when I recommend these domestics products over my traditional Japanese/Asian products because PERCEPTION is a powerful tool. Because in their minds…The American cars couldn’t possibly be as good or better than the imports. I admit, it has been a tough sell for some. Only time will change this. For myself, I always said as soon as their was a domestic product as good or better than the imports I would buy it. When my wife and I replaced our 2005 Honda Pilot, we replaced it with a 2008 Saturn Outlook. A fantastic vehicle by the way!! GM and Ford are building some great products but the general perception is “junk or unreliable” It is sad but true in most cases.
Hawk
Jan 30th, 2010 (12:25 pm)It sounds like they didn’t sign a good contract with Lotus and are getting the jailhouse shower treatment.
Jan 30th, 2010 (12:28 pm)Hey, if our jet fighters have used this technology for decades, I think we can use it safely on vehicles.
Jan 30th, 2010 (12:29 pm)Sounds like you are the “go to” guy in your family re cars. It’s really gratifying to hear that you are so data driven and flexible (hmmm, that may be redundant). I look forward to your review of the Volt! Of course, I look forward to the release of the Volt first! (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (12:42 pm)What I don’t get is people crashing when this happens.
Accelerator sticks, hit the brakes, shift to nuetral. Should take less than 2 seconds to do that.
+4
Jan 30th, 2010 (12:46 pm)Debt. Lots of it. At high interest rates.
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (1:02 pm)______________________________________________________
Off topic but nerd Volt battery related…
Active Combination of Ultracapacitors and Batteries for PHEV ESS / by Argonne National Laboratory
DOE Merit Review 20 May, 2009
“…Work with OEM and Tier I suppliers to identify production cost/size of a DC/DC converter that meets requirements for actively coupled ultracapacitor system and energy optimized battery for Chevy Volt sized PHEV…GM has verbally committed to use this technology on Chevy Volt ESS, and lab evaluation…Summary: Active Combination of Ultracapacitors and batteries for PHEVs can allow an optimal tradeoff between high power density ultracapacitors and energy optimized batteries…”
“1) Allows optimized energy density battery (150 to 400Whr/kg?) by reducingpeak loads and minimizing internal battery heating (move I2*R losses out)
2) Guaranteed end-of-life ESS power capability (i.e. no capacitor power fade),as well as reduced need to oversize battery for end-of-life performance.
3) Full power delivery (from UC/Electronics) in cold weather, allowing moreengine-off operation for PHEVs in those conditions.
4) Full power acceptance at high SOC (i.e. full regen braking/recovery whenbattery is above 80% SOC)
5) Trade off reduced battery size for separate subsystems (i.e. easier topackage since capacitors/electronics don’t share battery cooling system)..”
Source (pdf):
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/vehicles_and_systems_simulation/vss_15_bohn.pdf
Source (google text):
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:X5cQLaGPwt8J:www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/vehicles_and_systems_simulation/vss_15_bohn.pdf+%22maxwell%22+%22ultracapacitors%22+%22chevy+volt%22&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
______________________________________________________
+5
Jan 30th, 2010 (1:05 pm)Perception = Reality. Plain and simple.
Statik thanks for thought provoking article. “Has the focus and criticism of Toyota gotten out of control? Yes. Is it fair to Toyota and the image they have worked so hard to gain over the past couple decades? Probably not. But that is the way it is…and that is the business reality that GM knows all too well of late.” Agreed.
For years, an increasingly large percentage of US consumers have marched, sometimes like zombies, into Toyota and Honda showrooms to buy cars. The perception was ‘they can do no wrong’ and this was built over time by publications like CR. If this Toyota recall stops a small percentage of consumers from just blindly buying Toyota, then there is hope that those consumers will at least look at GM and/or Ford.
This recall goes beyond New Toyotas in production and on dealer’s lots (I feel for the dealer’s who have sale proof new vehicles for the moment). The publicity and change in public perception – even if only minimal – has an immediate negative impact on Toyota resale value for virtually every model they make. Every consumer who currently owns a Toyota product just saw their investment take a hit. Every dealer that has a used Toyota on their lot, just saw their inventory value take a hit.
Over time, this will begin to affect the residual value of Toyota models and cause their lease programs to be slightly less attractive. It opens the door for other manufacturers, GM and Ford are you listening?, to compete head on with lease payments.
This is a gradual shift. GM cannot afford to stop and gloat. They need to keep their head down, concentrate on what they have been doing: building high-quality products designed for today’s consumers needs. Its all about the product. Keep the focus on building the best product possible (…read VOLT…), get it to market, and allow both automotive critics and consumers to have at it. In the end, May the Best Car Win… (sounds familiar?)
Go GM. Go VOLT. Bring it on….
+3
Jan 30th, 2010 (1:27 pm)On the bright side, folks will now think twice before being d*cks and cutting in front of Toyotas.
+4
Jan 30th, 2010 (1:49 pm)Pinky… Are thinking what I’m thinking?
If we go to a Toyota blog site and post our opinions there about quality issues, that would make US the trolls! What incredible irony!
Meanwhile, my office is just a stone’s throw over to Enterprise Rent-A-Car, and all of their Toyotas have been moved over to one side of the lot and locked up. No Toyota rentals for you! They apparently do not want the liability. Smart move!
Jan 30th, 2010 (2:13 pm)J.D Power did a survey of about 80,000 transactions, and determined in addition to individual experience with problems, i.e reliability, the other factor of importance was resale value. And resale value reflects the perception of being a reliable car.
Looking at it from another angle, the average retention rate for all brands is about 48%, so most people do not think enough of the car to buy another one. That translates into there is lots of room for improvement, no matter how many PR types say we are as good as the imports.
If we look at the top ten makes in retention, only Ford and Chevy make the list (56% and 54% respectively). The best Fiatsler can do is 42% for Dodge, Chrysler has a dismal retention rate of 27%.
Saturn, Buick and Pontiac range from 25% to 27%.
Jan 30th, 2010 (2:13 pm)Amen! +1 (and I think I posted it already too)(lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 30th, 2010 (2:40 pm)On a similar note, I received the following from Budget yesterday:
Yesterday Budget announced that it was removing all of the vehicles identified for recall by Toyota from its corporate fleet in the US, Canada, and Puerto Rico. This step was taken to protect the safety of our customers, which is always our top priority.
It is important to note that the safety problems that have led to Toyota’s recall of certain vehicles are believed to arise out of usage over time. Accordingly, we believe that all of the Toyota vehicles in our fleet are safe, given the regular maintenance and the low mileage of our overall fleet.
We also want to reassure you that the affected Toyotas represent only a small percentage of our overall fleet, so we expect to be able to fulfill all projected demand and you can continue to make reservations with complete confidence for any rental occasion. Our fleet strategy emphasizes diversity so that we are able to respond to the full range of vehicle rental needs of our customers, as well as to reduce our risk from any issues arising out of any individual manufacturer.
We further want to emphasize that only certain Toyota makes and models, in addition to the Pontiac Vibe, are affected by the recall. Those Toyota vehicles that are not affected will continue to be offered for rental; however, if you are uncomfortable driving a Toyota vehicle, we will make every effort to offer you an alternative vehicle if one is available.
Jan 30th, 2010 (3:05 pm)I’m confused. Dodge and Chrysler are badge-engineered versions of the same car, right? So why the disparity?
Jan 30th, 2010 (3:20 pm)Ummmm, you didn’t even test drive Honda’s Insight because of reviews? How about the Edmunds multi-people review that ranked the 3rd gen Prius only slightly higher and the majority of reviewers said their personal preference was the Insight? I’ve actually read tons of good reviews on it (and like the car)
Jan 30th, 2010 (3:31 pm)Breaking/afternoon update re: pedal fix
There is 4 different sources saying that ‘the fix’ has been cleared by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration…well, that is was ‘not objected to’ anyway.
Parts are likely to be shipped to dealers by this time next week, and Toyota is going to make a announcement by Monday.
-3
Jan 30th, 2010 (3:44 pm)Toyota’s problems are far more likely to help Ford, Hyundai and Honda.
I doubt there will be that many defections, anyway. The Toyota owners I know with affected cars aren’t distiurbed by this. They checked to see if their pedals seemed sticky (answer: no) and think GM has a long way to go before either producing better cars or taking responsibility when they do screw up.
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (3:46 pm)Pricing. For the price of a Chrysler, you don’t get a better experience than with a Dodge. Dodges have been going for so little that they’re a better “value.”
+2
Jan 30th, 2010 (3:54 pm)There isn’t going to be a thread on this, so I thought I would mention a few things from/about the company and from the S-1 Form they filed for the IPO.
Tesla has sold 937-ish Roadsters through December 31st, but production capacity has far outstrip production and the order book is thinning fast.
Also, the Lotus Elise and Exige is getting long in the tooth and apparently will be canned and replaced with a new model for 2013. Because this underpins the Roadster, Tesla has no source for the platform and it will be involuntarily discontinued in 2011.
In the S-1 filing they say the following, “We do not plan to sell our current generation Tesla Roadster after 2011 due to planned tooling changes at a supplier for the Tesla Roadster.”
This means there will be nothing available for probably quite a long time at Tesla while they wait to produce the Model S (which is due out sometime in 2012). The do mention that a new roadster will be available sometime in 2013.
The filing also finally lets us catch a real good glimpse inside Tesla at the financials. So far they have lost 240 million setting up the company and selling the Roadster. Thats about a $240,000 loss per copy…for a vehicle they can’t continue to produce, which leads you to wonder about how they can sell the S at $57,500…and how they get to a place of profitability at that price?
They apparently have just over 2,000 orders/deposits for the Model S.
The first line of the S-1 is the most telling: “Approximate date of commencement of proposed sale to the public: As soon as practicable after this Registration Statement becomes effective.”
I read this to mean, we still have 100 million in cash now, we still have the ability to produce cars, we have the DoE on the hook for a 465 million dollar loan to built the Model S…right now is about as rosy as we are ever going to look, so lets get out there and raise some money. (Tesla used 100 million as the placeholder figure to raise)
If you enjoying reading long-winded government forms as much as myself you can catch it here…enjoy:
http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000119312510017054/ds1.htm#toc51863_2
/gonna pass on buying this one
+2
Jan 30th, 2010 (4:29 pm)What goes around comes around.
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (4:31 pm)Hi Crouch @ 64, yes they do have some models that share the same platform, ie. the minivan, and the sebring, but Dodge has several models that are not sold under the Chrysler brand.
The issue is larger than making the vehicle with the least problems, you also have to handle whatever problems that occur. For example, if a vehicle has a problem, and the dealer is proactive, fixes it on time and on budget, and reinforces how sorry the firm is for the inconvenience, the customer is “more likely” to be retained as a future buyer, than a customer who had no problems with the vehicle. Amazing but true.
Bottom line, could it be that Toyota dealers are doing a better job of customer retention than GM?
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (4:39 pm)The Toyota debacle underscores GM’s 100,000 mile commitment coupled with VOLT’s 10-year battery policy. It isn’t so much whether GM can or can’t take Toyota’s customers – its Toyota’s customers are going to be very sensitive to warranty and customer support. Which means GM has a special opportunity to demonstrate hassle-free customer support AND vehicle maintenance. This is where GM has it all over Euro comp. Think you got a great deal with buying that 10-year old $100 grand beauty for 25 grand – just wait until you take it in for whatever. Why BMW, Porsche, Jag and all the big stuff – its a $600 bill just to leave the car.
Before GM’s dealer massacre going into a GM dealer was ALWAYS a decent experience – GM needs to bring that, as well as its dealers, back.
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (5:13 pm)“Drive by Wire” — Will Toyota’s Pain be the Volt’s Pain?
I’m not sure I’m buying Toyota’s current explanation of the pedal defect/ floor mats causing stuck throttle. This may be a story that plays out for months or years.
Pedal-defect theory comes under fire from manufacturer
http://dailyme.com/story/2010013000000008/pedal-defect-theory-fire-manufacturer.html
It also makes you wonder about the massive amount of safety obstacles that must be overcome to avoid recalls on the volt. All the brand new “drive by wire” technology in the Volt must protect not only the passengers, but the x thousand’s of dollars battery pack as well. One stuck solenoid, one pulse of of emi, one bit of moisture, one bad ground, etc . . . . . This is a whole new field for the automotive world and there will no doubt be some major growing pains as they figure out all the sources for single point failure and where redundancy/etc… will be required.
Single Point of Failure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_point_of_failure
Jan 30th, 2010 (5:15 pm)This just can’t be true!! If this is so, there must be an oil company plot that is buying off Tesla! I would expect there is enough demand to sell Tesla Roadsters for decades and with all the money pouring in from their recent profitability, they should be able to buy the tooling and equipment from Lotus to keep building the current Roadster on their own for years, right? If this isn’t the case, then I definitely smell a conspiracy!!! Hmmm…
Who killed the electric car again? The sequel.
Jan 30th, 2010 (5:39 pm)OT:
anyone see this cogent and comprehensive defense of the ev
and ultimately the volt? It seems to me that car guys like Lutz and Leno really get, instinctively, how revolutionary and intelligent erev is.
I picked this up on instapundit.
Carlust: http://www.carlustblog.com/2010/01/in-defense-of-the-electric-car.html
Jan 30th, 2010 (5:54 pm)I can always appreciate a little sarcasm, (=
The S-1 Filing is a virtual treasure trove of inside information, and a rare…almost ‘one-time’ only glimpse at a company straight up. (I look forward to reading GM’s someday soon)
Further to what you were kidding about DaV8or…as for the production/backlog exactly, page 20 of the filing offers this:
“As of December 31, 2009, we had unfilled reservations for approximately 220 Tesla Roadsters and approximately 2,000 Model S sedans, all of which are subject to cancellation by the customer up until delivery of the vehicle. ”
..and there is this about future sales/revenue:
“A large amount of our Tesla Roadster sales revenue in 2009 was due to the fulfillment of orders from reservations taken in prior years.
…to date many of our Tesla Roadster sales have been made to persons who had pre-existing relationships with our management team or who are affluent individuals with a strong interest in owning a novel product. It may be difficult to attract high numbers of new Tesla Roadster customers who do not have pre-existing relationships with us or who are attracted to buy the Tesla Roadster after its initial novelty phase. We may not have a significant wait list of orders for our Tesla Roadster in the future, and we may not be able to maintain or increase our vehicle sales revenue in future quarters.”
There is a good volume of other disclosures and forewarnings (real or imagined) in the “Risk Factors” section of the filing. If you ever really wanted to know all the risks in selling an electric car from the point of a manufacturer…it is there. /good read
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (6:09 pm)I find it quite interesting that the Model S ($57,400) is priced within $100 of another government backed dream car from the past — the Delorean DC-12 was offered at $57,500 in today’s dollars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeLorean_Motor_Company
Car Crash: The DeLorean Story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtS8YYSjQbE
+3
Jan 30th, 2010 (6:30 pm)Late afternoon NEWSFLASH: This Toyota Recall PR is definitely affecting consumers. Today, at our small Chevy dealership in CT, we took in 3 Toyota’s on trade – 2 of them definitely as a result of the negative PR. We did not advertise the GM Toyota rebate, yet most shoppers knew about it – likely from news reports. Bottom line is that I believe there has been a major shift in consumer sentiment toward Toyota. Only time will tell how long it lasts and how deep it gets.
In case you wondered:
09 Camry for 2010 Malibu
08 Sequoia for 2010 Tahoe
02 Highlander for 2010 Equinox
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (6:37 pm)I emailed an Uncle this week. He lives outside of DC. He said that after years of buying Toyota he now owns a Taurus. He went on to say that he likes it. And that he has “done his part” (to support American business).
=D~
+2
Jan 30th, 2010 (6:40 pm)I just saw the news on TV about Toyota’s problem. Guess who was there to defend Toyota? None other than Consumer Reports. Consumer Report wants to make sure that check keeps coming in.
Jan 30th, 2010 (6:46 pm)solo,
You really have lots of strong points here. Although with the OnStar, I have a really good confidence level that GM will always have access to the PCM and all the many subprocessors in order to “check in” automatically at any time if not all the time. The OnStar is the key here.
In GM datastream sets, which are the most thorough in the World, all software is interconnected. Any significant abnormal condition is communicated as a fault code, but, not just remaining resident within only the PCM or a subprocessor, but, all affected processors log the fault code.
Even the slightest anomoly can be instantly recognized by a GM Controller Area Network. In a GM CAN, you don’t just have one fault code, you have many processors complaining in thier own vocabulary of installed code library statements how a condition is affecting them (in a code cascade).
So, you never just have only one fault code reporting in, you can have 4 to 155 fault codes reporting in a GM Controller Area Network. (So a tech had better know his stuff).
So, GM engineers are not going to miss something unusual in your Voltec vehicle.
My Advanced Processor Seminars require at least three GM vehicles to be available to technicians for the first segment. A Ford vehicle is next, then whatever happens to be in the live repair order sequence.
There is just so much more that I could tell you about how completely thorough GM is, but it would take too long, so, I try to get a little bit out at a time as the thread allows.
You can feel confident with GM software, because the OnStar will be on the job for you relentlessly. (I won’t be without it).
+2
Jan 30th, 2010 (6:51 pm)2010 Taurus ($30k 22mpg 6cl) ~ 2011 Volt (32k 100+ mpg)
=D~
Jan 30th, 2010 (6:53 pm)more Toyot news:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Toyota-Shows-How-Giants-usnews-3989832353.html?x=0&.v=1
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (6:59 pm)Often I have found the info in Consumer Reports minimal at best. While I do believe we need a magazine on product quality I wonder if their testing means all that much and I’ve been burned by their advice. This begs the question, if not Consumers Report then who ?
Well I conitnue to use Consumers Report resources but I rely more on my own research on the web. Just about everyone has an opinion on products and services and I find these opinions and often unedited comments can be helpful and more inline with the information I need for decision making.
Jan 30th, 2010 (7:00 pm)Actually the Chevy Volt has a new hood and front fenders altogether:
http://www.gm-volt.com/galleries/album/72157607038955164/photo/4149423951/production-chevy-volt-volt.html
Jan 30th, 2010 (7:16 pm)PS to my post at 82 above.
The time I scanned a vehicle that had 155 codes, a tech installed an autozone battery which was sold with two grease packets attatched to it for $2.16 more. He put the grease between the contact surfaces and the torque applied to the battery terminal bolts did not remain sufficient. Just cranking it over set this number of codes. (Just use clear acrylic spray paint on the outside of clean, shiny, and tight terminals. Not that battery terminal spray stuff either, it gets down into the contact areas).
The codes were all cleared and all that was needed was a reprogram of the ignition key security module. (Something OnStar could likely do in the future).
Jan 30th, 2010 (7:25 pm)I skimmed through this article and found it interesting as well. One section sounded really interesting to me:
“Turbines are roughly twice as efficient as internal-combustion engines, can run on many fuels, and they are absolutely excellent at generating electricity–virtually all electricity on the planet is generated by some form of turbine. This would make a Volt-like concept with a turbine a highly intriguing proposition.”
I don’t remember. Have we discussed a turbine vs ICE for the Volt before?
Jan 30th, 2010 (7:35 pm)I just Googled “Honda crosstour”, and I have to admit… I think it is a fairly unique but attractive car. But it’s a total gas hog, at 17 mpg city. I could get 16 mpg city out of a 372 hp Dodge Challenger with a V8 Hemi. Honda, I am not impressed.
+2
Jan 30th, 2010 (7:56 pm)No other company in American history has done more to pay its share of taxes to fuel the growth of America whether in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and even though wagging by this time, the 90s and on. Toyota, on the other hand takes all taxes using a foreign transfer technique, back to Japan, and the profits along with it.
No thanks. We can’t stay on this merry go round of American prosperity forever unless we support our own nation’s industrial base and service base producers. They produce quality and I buy their cars, trucks, furniture, carpets, you name it. Harder to do every year.
Jan 30th, 2010 (8:07 pm)I don’t think that we’ve discussed it, but the comments after that article seemed to give the idea mixed reviews. Some said it’d be great, some said that the high tolerances necessary and catastrophic nature if it failed would make it unsuited for bumpy situations, like in a daily car (as opposed to on a race track). OTOH, the work with turbines was back in the 60′s, so maybe by now it’d be a viable candidate.
HTH,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+4
Jan 30th, 2010 (8:10 pm)Not one word about Buick being the no.1 most reliable brand for the last 3 years? (JDPowers long term reliability)
Not one word about the fact that GM is kept out of all major auto markets except North America? Try buying a Chevy Malibu in Japan or Germany… you will have to pay a huge tariff… which brings the Malibu up to $45,000 … How many Camrys or Accords etc… would sell in the US if they cost $45,000 …
Do away with UNFAIR TRADE and let our American companies compete fairly.
Why don’t we include all the MAJOR facts here…
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (8:22 pm)Can you provide a reliable source for the supposed huge tariffs that Japan imposes on U.S. made vehicles?
Jan 30th, 2010 (8:28 pm)More on electronic throttle control problems:
“Michael Pecht, a professor of mechanical engineering at the University of Maryland who has studied sudden acceleration for 10 years, said it’s nearly impossible to replicate an electronic control system fault simply by driving a short distance.
“These are not things that occur every day. If it occurred a lot, you could track it down. If it occurs once in 10,000 trips, then it is difficult to find,” he said.
What’s more, said Huei Peng, a mechanical engineering professor at the University of Michigan and a specialist in vehicle control systems, many of the kinds of electronic errors that a modern car is susceptible to are not detectable by the car’s fault detection system.
“When there’s no error code, it doesn’t mean there’s no error,” Peng said.”
Data point to Toyota’s throttles, not floor mats — LA Times article (you’ll have to google it yourself)
_____________
_____________
I wonder if they’re not just offering up some floor mat/ sticky bushing b.s. to pacify the public/lawsuits while they install the throttle cutout device (that won’t allow opening of the throttle while the brake is simultaneously depressed) in hopes that this will lessen/ eliminate accidents while they try to find the real source(sources?) of the runaway acceleration.
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:07 pm)Crank up those assembly lines GM! Advertise like crazy. Go get em!
I hope the quality and reliability of the 2010 models will keep the customers coming back. The GM dealerships need to make a good impression when they talk to former Toyota and Honda customers who are checking out the cars on the lot. They’ll probably be looking at GM cars closely this year. Especially when the Volt comes out. It’s GM’s turn to have a big turnaround like Ford has lately.
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:45 pm)A robust controls design has redundant systems (aka control reliable). This would require a min of 2 devices to fail. When a failure occurs the machine must fail in a safe manner and not allow a restart. I deal w/this everyday w/industrial equipment. I’m not sure how far this safety requiremnt has penetrated into auto design, where it seems airbags & seatbelts clean up the mess of poor safety designs.
-5
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:48 pm)Today’s Toyota’s gas pedal is tomorrow’s chevy volt battery.
-1
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:48 pm)The statement at the end of the article, “twist the knife etc…” is moronic crap.
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (9:58 pm)at 60mph you’ve traveled 176 feet in those 2 seconds.
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:08 pm)Speaking from experience here, as a certified turbine helicopter mechanic and pilot. You can shake the he’ll out of a turbine and it will have little effect on performance or reliability, helicopters shake constantly and all US tanks are powered by turbines, ever herd the saying ” rides like a tank”?
The only thing I have seen that will reduce the life of a turbine is F.O.D or a loss of lubricant. The big negative to using them in an auto is cost. They all have very small tollerances required and generally use exotic materials in their construction to tollerate the high temps involved. Which also pose a saftey problem in a car. Imagine ” no no johnny don’t touch the hood it’ll melt your fingers off!”
The only way I see them being practical on an auto is if they were made mostly from ceramics and in verry large numbers.
Jan 30th, 2010 (10:33 pm)Wow, thanks for the info/insights. Melting Johnny’s fingers would be a real buzz-kill.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:23 pm)1) I think it is quite improper to consider a turbine as fuel efficient. The major benefits of a turbine is high power, small size, low maintenance.
2) Cost is very high. Chrysler tried to make the turbine work in autos. Williams International tried to make an inexpensive small (200 HP) turbine for GA aircraft (small airplanes). Inexpensive here means $100,000.
Otherwise turbines are great. It IS possible to buy surplus turbines that were designed to be used as APU’s for about $20,000.
+1
Jan 30th, 2010 (11:36 pm)Twist the knife indeed. GM needs a chance to catch up . . . with current products. And then blow by Toyota with the Volt.
Jan 31st, 2010 (12:13 am)Oh ! Are you speculating or do you have some inside infomation ?
+1
Jan 31st, 2010 (12:17 am)We still need Toyota cars (just not so many) to keep American car makers and unions on their toes.
Jan 31st, 2010 (12:21 am)BANG ON !
Jan 31st, 2010 (12:28 am)I’ll bet that the Toyota recall is giving the Volt team engineers nightmares! If this can happen with well tested technology, they must be losing sleep about fielding ground-breaking tech. Let’s hope that the unavoidable unknowns turn out to be minor – best case are things that can be corrected with a software fix. Fingers crossed.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 31st, 2010 (1:23 am)I’ve actually seen the Chrysler turbine first hand, running and driving actually, at a car show in Forrest Park in saint Louis about 20 yrs ago. It was impressive engineering for 1960′s tech. It used a hydraulic transmission if I recall properly, which delt with the turbine maintaining a constant speed. Really cool car!
As for those $20,000 apu’s u mentioned I also have alot of first hand exp with those. They are made by Garret and by turbomecha(itiallian made) mostly used as apu’s on black hawks, chinooks, and apachie’s. But while u can get one for 20k surplus(used), it is only after they are decertified for avaition use and they have a high failure rate(used) and are near the end of their life. In the case of turbines u get what u pay for.
Jan 31st, 2010 (1:40 am)There is one way I know of for a turbine to be feasible in a car.
The US GOV has been working for a few yrs on developing micro-turbines for man portable purposes. I imagine that could be scaled for a volt like application. It’s not my area of expertise but if there is one thing I’ve learned if u can dream it u can do it. As far as fuel efficent turbines it all depends on the design, a tiny multiple stage turboshaft could produce enough power for a volt like app and be run less often then an ice which would increase Fuel mileage and expected lifespan.
+1
Jan 31st, 2010 (4:23 am)However, if I could have my volt my way it would have a MR. Fusion instead of any gas burner for a range extender!!
Jan 31st, 2010 (9:09 pm)Totally voluntary fix ? With the NHTSA on your back, it ain’t voluntary at all. It’s mandatory if you want to stay in business.
Fixing these very minor problems ? Nothing minor in a stuck acceleration pedal if you’re the driver of the car. Or simply in the car.
Please be informed before posting. At least a little.
Jan 31st, 2010 (9:33 pm)I don’t think jet fighters are subject to salt as are cars. I’m pretty sure that the level of quality of a jet fighter that cost millions is way better than that of a car of 20K.
Let’s compare the comparable.
Jan 31st, 2010 (10:00 pm)I beg to differ. It’s Statik’s brand of humor, which is appreciated by most of us, including me.
Jan 31st, 2010 (10:03 pm)Why spend so much on a backup generator. Let’s keep it simple.
Feb 1st, 2010 (7:07 am)In regard to turbines, the idea is not new. GM used one in the EV1. the problem is cost.
The company below makes automotive turbines. The smallest the 30kW model is over $33,000 (bulk order only).
http://www.capstoneturbine.com/prodsol/products/index.asp
Also see http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/capstone-turbin.html for buses using this tech. I don’t think most people want to pay over $60,000 for their Volt. Still if they did it would double their mileage, judging by the above article.
Feb 1st, 2010 (1:29 pm)#10
I agree. +1
Feb 1st, 2010 (2:12 pm)Public perception of Toyota’s trouble has not hit the stock hard. It is trading around 80 right now – up $3.50, and well above the 52 week low of 56.
+1
Feb 1st, 2010 (5:42 pm)Hey look, Dagwood has come out of the shadows! Hey Dag, at Toyota we put the FUN back in driving: maybe runaway acceleration, maybe breaking problems, who knows?
Yea, G3 Prius braking problems scaring the crap out of owners. Gotta love Toyota!
or…..
EPIC FAIL.
Buh..buy Daggywaggy, it was fun, but now you’re done.
Feb 1st, 2010 (7:18 pm)I don’t want to pay for the cost associated with aircraft fly by wire systems. The aircraft systems have many redundant channels that just couldn’t be done in a car.
Feb 1st, 2010 (7:20 pm)The options aren’t the same between the two. The platform is the same but often the price is quite different.
+2
Feb 2nd, 2010 (11:59 pm)Die Toyota, die!!!
Go GM, go!!!
Feb 3rd, 2010 (8:50 pm)I got ripped by Consumers flawed reports once….
they do not adjust for the amount of vehicles on the road and only get responses from people who read their bias reports. The red dots made me buy a really bad Japanese vehicle while I watched a neighbors average open dot vehicle give much better performance and much less problems… so I do not think being on the cover of Consumers flawed reports is a very good thing.
The Volt is being tested at the best proving grounds in the world .. the Milford Proving grounds.. I’ve owned several of GM’s proven first year products with very good results… I have confidence that the VOLT will be a fine vehicle. I have no sympathy for Toyota … the Japanese have kept our products out of their market while setting up shop in the US and not paid US taxes giving them $3000 tax advantage alone over our American companies… and don’t think for one moment the Japanese government isn’t giving them billions to buy back a million trucks with rusted frames while we vilify our own GM.
It’s good to read… Go GM! The VOLT has sparked the biggest electric car race ever…. they deserve encouragement!
Thank you to all the great engineers .. designers… craftsmen and all other workers at GM who are making the next generation of cars.
I’m totally sick of reading about lousy politicians… sports jerks…. and Hollywood bums… these engineers and workers at GM are the people who deserve recognition… these are the people who bring prosperity to the US .. they bring money into our economy and create jobs!
Yes….. GO GM!
Feb 3rd, 2010 (10:45 pm)Jet fighters also have ejection seats.
How do you think the F-16 (one of the first “fly by wire” fighter jets) got the nickname “lawn dart”?