Nissan LEAF Battery Pack
GM engineers have rightly been assiduously concerned and careful about ensuring the Chevy Volt’s battery will last 10 years or 150,000 miles and deliver its stated range and power.
The Nissan LEAF electric car, also expected to arrive at the end of the year, apparently isn’t so meticulously engineered. Or so says Wired.com in an article written by Daryl Siry, former marketing head of Tesla and currently an advisor to Coda Automotive
Siry portrays Nissan almost as a brazen bull in a china shop fearlessly led by an overoptimistic and headstrong Carlos Ghosn. Nissan, Siry notes, now at the forefront of EV marketing wasn’t even part of the discussion two years ago. This rush to the front lines may have made them less careful in their haste.
Ghosn reportedly said, “The engineers will always tell you, ‘Wait a little more,’ and if you keep playing this game, you never launch any product.”
Yikes.
Siry points out that the LEAF’s 100 mile estimated range is based on the overly conservative LA4 test cycle, and that in real world conditions range will be “significantly less.”
It gets worse.
Nissan is not using an active thermal management system for the LEAF’s batteries.
Instead of including a separate high-tech computer controlled liquid heating and cooling system like the Volt has, Nissan is simply blowing cabin air into the pack with a fan. It is this sophisticated pampering of the pack GM feels is so critical for maintaining range, power and longevity, that Nissan has ignored completely. In fact GM has gone so far as to call pack construction core competency and has built and begun operating its own battery pack assembly plant.
Nissan director Mark Perry went so faras to dismiss the importance of a thermal management system.
“We don’t need thermal management for the U.S. … we’ve gone on the record saying that the pack has a 70 to 80 percent capacity after 10 years,” he told Wired.com
Another Nissan product manager told Wired the real reason there is no thermal management system is that it would take up too much cabin space, by adding height to the pack. This is the reason Volt has four seats, compared to the LEAF’s five.
GM’s Volt executive Tony Posawatz explained why separate battery HVAC is so important in electric cars.
“Thermal management has bookend issues to manage: minimized power at low temperatures and life reduction at high exposure to higher temperatures,” he told Wired. “If you want to replace your battery every four to five years and someone is willing to pay for [a replacement battery], either the customer or the manufacturer, a modest or minimal HVAC system may work.”
It is quite likely Nissan’s awareness they are taking a battery shortcut has led them to the decision to lease the battery separately.
Source (Wired)
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 28th, 2010 at 7:22 am and is filed under BEV, Battery, Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
+33
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:31 am)Relying on air-cooled batteries is a huge roll of the dice for Nissan. Remember that old saw about how you only have one chance to make a first impression?
Unfortunately, when (not “if,” IMO) the Leaf doesn’t work out the way Nissan is hyping it, all EVs will be tarred by the same brush. GM will have to work doubly hard to make the public understand the distinction between its ER-EV architecture and pure BEVs.
Remember all the posters on this blog 18 months ago who kept giving GM grief for taking so long? GM deserves great credit for having the patience to get the Volt right the first time. Let’s hope they do.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (7:31 am)Good. Are we supposed to look out for problems?
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+16
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:31 am)I just assume Nissans strategy is to lease the battery knowing they’ll replace it in 3-5 years with a state of the art battery (whatever that is). Nissan must figure they can start building up the capacity for other components and build market share assuming they can plug in better batteries down the road.
I don’t think that is too bad of a strategy. The future owners of these cars will get probably a cheaper alternative to the Volt, and there certainly are a few hundred thousand people who can get by with a car with limited range to drive 30-70 miles daily AER over next several years until Nissan comes out with a better battery.
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+5
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:32 am)Nissan will offer some form of battery maintenance for operating temperatures outside of the 40 degree to 80 degree range. My guess is that about 1/2 of the Leaf will need help with battery temperature maintenance.
If the Nissan Leaf comes with lease only for the battery. Then battery maintenance becomes much less of an issue.
Summer temperatures in Las Vegas are normally 80 degrees by 10 am. Climbing to over 100 degrees at noon. I’ll take the Volt.
=D~
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+2
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:33 am)Wow! Lyle, you are great to find this.
This has been in the back of my mind now for a good while. Things just did not add up.
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+7
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:36 am)#1 – as i just posted in #3, I don’t see it is much of a gamble, just because this is the battery in the first few hundred thousand cars doesn’t mean that is the battery in cars sold in 2014 and beyond.
If the battery is leased why does it matter if it doesn’t last beyond the lease. They are just trying to get EVs out there and build up production capacity while simultaneously Battery improvements are happening.
I think we should all be happy that GM isn’t the only one working on the electrification of the automobile.
While I sincerely hope American companies dominate the market, it is also important for the market to grow. And the more products out there the more money that will be put into battery development which is truly the critical path to the electrification goals we all have.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:37 am)I suspect the impacts of the heat on the Leaf Battery must not be as bad as assumed, or why would they roll out in Phoenix instead of more moderate temperature areas (San Diego, San Fran, etc.)
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+10
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:40 am)If you can only lease the battery customers who choose this route would seem to be ok in the beginning, if the range is acceptable. But a few important factors arise from the decision. Wouldn’t buyers be perpetually on the hook to the leasing company?
With leased batteries maybe I won’t care much about the battery – it’s someone elses problem. Yet, If folks keep the car long term, there is the potential hassle of getting the company to exchange batteries etc. What if a customer says the range is unacceptable after five years and the company says, it’s fine go home and watch movies on your iPad? Time to contact a lawyer?
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-9
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:41 am)hi tom w …
There will be more Leaf to go around than Volt. You may want to be an early adopter for Nissan.
Here is Santa Barbara the Summer teamperature is 72 degrees +_ 5. Winter tempertaure range is 50 degrees +_ 15.
=D~
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+13
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:44 am)The Nissan Leaf is a pure BEV, which already requires the user to take a huge gamble. So a poor battery design is just one more.
I’ve said it before, EREVs will go mainstream, while pure BEVs will remain a niche product for brave souls. The sooner Nissan, Toyota, and Ford realize this the better. We need some competition for the Volt.
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+11
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:46 am)No, this means that the LEAF will be more EXPENSIVE. Two separate ways are being employed to hide the cost. 1) cutting corners in the battery function. 2) using a lease.
Cutting corners two ways: a) lack of conditioning that protects the battery, and b) not limiting the SOC cycle range. This cuts quality, NOT cost; it INCREASES cost by wasting the functionality of the device.
A lease also increases cost. It adds to the overhead of financing. It relies very heavily on residual value. Residual value is going to be badly compromised.
An EV, including components like the battery are not like a laptop that has a new version every two years that is 30% cheaper. Your auto is more like your house than your laptop.
Those of us willing to be early adopters are willing to pay a premium. The Volt price WILL come down because it is new technology, but not because of Moore’s law.
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+5
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:48 am)Dave K;
I want to buy American if possible. But certainly I will consider the Leaf if
A) It is available and the Volt is not
B) It is much cheaper than the Volt
The range is fine as long as 70 mile AER is dependable. I can drive in an efficient way when needed. I sincerely want to stop using Oil.
And what I like about the Leaf is I know I can get more AER because frequently I drive 60-70 miles a day. There are some trips I’ll need to charge like at my Mom’s house to get back home (80 mile round trip), but thats ok, she has electricity at her house.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:50 am)lots of bulls***!
It seems suspicious that Daryl Siry is commenting about the competition. Nissan/Renault engineers are confident that they do not need water cooled packs, they probably know what they are doing. The packs in the PBP cars will not be water cooled either.
Do you really thing it is hard or expensive to rig up such a system?.. remember the pack has no moving parts that wear out or are difficult to seal.
The flat pack has a lot of surface area to dissipate heat and lithium cells are very efficient, only 1% of the energy is wasted as heat during normal operation. At hwy cruise the Leaf’s pack will generate 250watts of heat.. the pack will probably need supplemental heat during winter operation.
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+4
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:51 am)Please note that Renault/Nissan has taken a different strategy regarding their batteries. They are working on using interchangeable battery packs and recharging similar to the concept used in Project Better Place.
They are planning to try this out in Israel in 2011.
Adding coolant and heating components to the battery pack would make this strategy costly, if not difficult, to implement.
This is another reason why they are “leasing” the battery pack.
I’m only offering this to help clarify their strategy, as for me, I prefer EREV as living in the midwest, recharging stations can be few and far between (probably only at dealerships!).
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:53 am)hi tom w 12 …
Sounds like the Leaf will work for you. Happy motoring.
=D~
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:54 am)What would replacement costs, labor, and overhead be for a couple hundred thousand propulsion batteries?
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:56 am)the volt’s battery’s are considered part of the emissions system (hence the 10 yr warranty requirement). with no ice..the leaf doesn’t have this issue.
seems like a prudent move to me.
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (7:58 am)Well, I wish Nissan well, but those who buy it I wish them LOTS of luck. This probably represents more of a threat to Tesla. But even there a comparison to Tesla makes the Tesla look better. The REAL threat is to the future of BEV’s.
In the short run this is going to make GM look really good — go a long way to make American technology look superior and American quality superior also.
Be careful out there, boys and girls.
Be well, everyone (sorry for the plaigarism, but it is just so right).
John
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:00 am)JohnK;
You cannot compare the costs until you know what they are.
Perhaps the Volt will sell for 33K – 7.5 = 25.5k
Perhaps the Leaf wil sell for 20k – 7.5 = 12.5k
I lease the battery I wonder how the credit will work???
That could be a HUGE Benefit for the leaf in that you actually get the credit before you’ve paid for your battery (leasing it).
If the Leaf is 13K cheaper at purchase, and the battery is leased for $150 a month, it would take 8 years to equalize the costs not even taking into account time cost of the money.
And the Leaf can achieve more AER for many drivers and save even more money.
But of course the VOLT is a much nicer car (or at least it seems like it).
Anyways I’ve never seen any of these cars in person much less driven one. I still don’t know the costs.
Pretty hard to compare. All I know is I’m committed to driving with AER on my next car, but as I posted above, I don’t know what cars will be available first in Ohio, what they will cost, and I don’t know the quality, warranty ,,,,well despite all that great info we get here on the site, there is still a lot we don’t know.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:04 am)Not everyone likes the granny smith. Some like Red Delicious, Golden Delicious, Gala. Others want Fuji, Honeycrisp, Jonagold, Jonathan. Some will even request oranges. One type of propulsion won’t fit all. At least not at first.
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+5
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:05 am)Lyle Said:
“Thanks to Siry’s expose’, the consumer’s decision between LEAF and VOLT should be much clearer now.”
===================
Lyle:
At least for most of us here, the decision was always clear. Range anxiety is a real issue. The Volt has solved that problem. And using components you know may not work long term, is a receipe for disaster for Nissan. If the Leaf only gets 30-40 miles of range in hot or cold areas, or the pack fails altogether in a short time period because of temperature related problems, people will simply choose not to buy, or demand refunds.
Will Nissan be next with a “stop all sales of our car until it is fixed” news flash????
Or has Nissan done the work, and figured out that the pack really does not need to be managed so much?
Time will tell…..
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:05 am)I bet the problem that Nissan will have is that the pack will need lots and lots of supplemental heat during winter operation… cold air will suck the heat out of that pack quicker than it can keep itself warm thru natural discharge heating. This is the disadvantage of a passive cooling system with an un-insulated pack.
The pack should be cooled with passenger cabin air, the cells like to be at the same temperature as the passengers… if its too hot to go out in the heat for you then its too hot for the car also.
One design advantage of the large pack is that it will have a very gentle SOC cycle with 40 miles of daily driving. Very interesting that Nissan engineers expect a 10 year life.
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+4
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:08 am)So out here in the sticks of NC where I live, there are no Volts on the horizon, but I’d still like an electric car. Leaf is going to be giving a demo here (in Raleigh, not too far away) tomorrow, so at least they know we exist, whereas I think we have been erased on the map of the new gm.
So itt looks like Leaf will have to be my car if I go electric, as it will be the only choice. If so, we will see how it goes. It might be ok. Thermal management or not LEAF should go 20 miles a day, which is all I need most of the time.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (8:08 am)I believe this is one thing we can be sure of. Despite all we don’t know. Nissan will set the lease for however long they think the battery will last, and they are already working on plans on what to do with the batteries after they replace them.
The gamble for Nissan is what do they replace them with, and what assurances do they give customers who are leasing a battery for 3,4,5 years, that when they come to renew the lease that something better will be there.
In fact I would expect the nissan lease to include some option to renew at a guaranteed price with a new battery. And I’m sure the Lease will be transferable.
Again these are all things that need to be considered when they come to market.
I plan to buy in 2012 so I’m hoping to have some choices. Hoping the volt is available, but I’m sure even if not in Ohio Dealers by 2012 I can go to Michigan to get one.
Don’t know if anyone ever asked that question. if you don’t live in a state where they roll them out, can you go there and buy one? How can they stop you.
For instance if the Volt won’t be sold in Ohio Dealers until 2013, could a customer buy one in Michigan in 2012 and just hope they don’t need to go back to a dealer until 2013?
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+9
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:08 am)So the business model is sell the Leaf and lease the batteries. Do you see an EV1 similarity here? Without a battery, this car is worthless!!
So as Jeffhre mentions at # 8, your battery starts to have issues, and the first phase is a pissing contest with the dealer/OEM. Then they agree to give you a “new” battery”, but you have to pay the cost of installation.
Turns out, the battery is reconditioned, and 18 months later, you’re back at the dealer for a 2nd pissing contest. Now you get a second reconditioned battery and pay the installation cost again.
Do you see a pattern here?
And although there may be a second generation battery, it may not be backward compatible with Leaf 1.0, as the entire architecture may change by then (and include a better cooling system).
I guess my summation is: Buyer Beware!
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:09 am)I hope that Nissan does not WANT the Leaf to fail. Starting in Phoenix AZ seems to point in that direction. Maybe Leaf is Nissan’s EV1. But remember, the EV1 was only a financial failure – it was an engineering success. Even now, we don’t know the true costs of the EV1.
Regards,
John
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Jan 28th, 2010 (8:11 am)They are actually MAKING the cars for PBP.. interesting that Israel has hot summers and Denmark has cold winters.. the first two places PBP will be released first.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (8:11 am)Aaaah, I’ll bet that Nissan has plans to partner with EEstor.
I AM joking.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:15 am)If Nissan turns the heat or AC on while plugged in that would help. If heat or AC are on while parked but not plugged in, it could reduce range while preserving battery life.
How long would it take to condition batteries using only forced air in very cold or hot conditions? Would output be limited while the system conditions the batteries?
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:23 am)taking bets on how long to the first Dell laptop meltdown, I mean, Nissan Leaf explosion. The risk is not so much performance and battery life, it’s runaway heat and meltdown of the battery pack (like the Dell Laptop problem of a few years ago). Knowing the amount of attention that Tesla put into the heating and cooling of the battery assembly, this Nissan design may prove very dangerous.
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+18
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:24 am)Just what I want, a car payment that never ends!!! There are people who won’t mind paying $250 a month for the life of the car to keep the battery lease going. and if the battery lasts only 4 years Nissan has collected $12,000 for that battery. If all they are talking about is packaging cells I bet someone ran the numbers and said we can afford to keep replacing the batteries as long as the customer keeps paying a monthly fee for the pack.
I don’t like monthly payments and the thought of never paying my car off makes me sick to my stomach but for people who habitually lease vehicles this may work for them. And as an engineer I despise managers who think they can just move schedule to the left without considering the quality and functionality of the product drives me crazy.
Toyota is recalling all their cars and stopped selling a bunch, Nissan has cobbled together a vehicle seemingly without care for quality and performance, GM is working on a car that they seem to want to test more than any car that’s come before it, and Ford has best car and truck at the Detroit auto show. Next thing you’ll tell me is consumer reports would actually recommend an American car!
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+6
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:25 am)I don’t think GM would spend money for a battery pack if it were not needed.. I think Nissan has found itself behind in electric cars design, and is taking a short cut so it won’t miss on some of the glory of being in the forefront of the electrification of automobiles.
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+4
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:26 am)I agree…if the LEAF ends being a disappointment to the consumer, the EV/EREV naysayers will not be converted.
However if Nissan can produce (or purchase from 3rd party) a much simplier battery pack (or battery pack system) with comparable performance, reliablity and price, they are ahead of the competition. A Volkswagon Beetle (the 1st version) is a simple design for basic personal transportation. I’m not saying that the LEAF battery pack can be compared to the Beetle’s success…not yet anyways.
I know current laws require 8-10 years expectant life from these battery packs. However if Nissan has gotten a variance for a 3-5 year life and the cost to design/manufacture is much less, buyers will be getting “what they paid for”. Other laws require Nissan to support the entire vehicle for 10 years (I think)…Nissan may be able to offer a better replacement battery pack at lower price in 3-5 years.
Lead-acid batteries for ICE vehicles are sold/warranteed based on life expectancy…why can’t EV/EREV battery packs? I’ll answer my own question…Since the tech is new for battery packs of this size…life expectancy is uncertain.
In conclusion, I think that EREV is better solution with current tech. However, simple designs almost always win the end game.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (8:27 am)I’ve always thought that with sufficient demand and low inventory they could just keep putting your name at the bottom of the list saying the priority was to deliver to folks that could be properly serviced. OEM’s may want you to sign a maintenance contract or even block out your zip code. Dealers would want to sell first come first served. All speculation on my part though.
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+2
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:31 am)I think that is a proper decision of Nissan! You need to understand the difference between BEV and E-REV:
In the Volt you can have a thermal control system, because if it detects that temperature is too low it can start the ICE and get the batteries warmer using heat from its cooler fluid. That is why the batteries are liquid cooled too.
But in the Leaf what could a thermal control system do if it detects temperatures are too low? Where could it get the heat from? From the batteries, making them loosing their charge? Or from the mains the car hopefully is still attached to? If using the mains to heat the batteries up it might as well heat the whole passenger area up so that you arrive to a warm car.
That is why the Volt has a great advantage having a water cooled thermal control system.
The advantage for the Leaf would be much less. I can understand why they decided to be without. A passenger area heater that uses mains electricity is much better, heating both the passenger area and the batteries up before departing on a cold day.
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+4
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:34 am)Lyle,
Daryl Siry is a former MARKETING guy, there’s quite a few clues as to his ignorance and motives right there.
1) He works for AN-OTHER EV maker
2) Has F%&k all credibility talking about engineering…. especially compared to Nissan automotive engineers.
3) Nissan are not SELLING BATTERIES, so therefore hold the warranty on them, not the customer
4) Siry conveniently neglected to mention Nissan have already announced they will introduce a Li-ion battery with a lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide cathode with double the energy density of today’s cells by 2015 (so the cells used in 2010 don’t have to last 10 years like the Volt cells)
5) Nissan have a JV deal with Sumitomo Corp to recycle used EV batteries, as they will still have 80% DOC
Bottom line… I’d put my confidence in Nissan rather than some ‘marketing’ guy who was fired from a small EV conversion company (Tesla) after just a year in the job!
Anyone who claims to promote EVs yet writes such biased BS is a disgrace to the entire EV movement.
(PS Ford Fusion battery packs are air cooled… )
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Jan 28th, 2010 (8:36 am)Designing a system that needs cooling with a mostly passive cooling system is elegant. If it works, and does not hurt battery life, then the design shows the way forward. If it fails, then it demonstrates that the added cost of an active cooling system is required.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:40 am)Perhaps…
___________________________________________________
Tama Electric Car (1947)
Nissan’s first electric car, with a top speed of 35km/h
and capable of achieving 65km when fully charged.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (8:45 am)With GM, you are going to get what you pay for, extremely well-designed technologies, from which, GM has designed-in
consumer flexibility-options (not accessories like things you turn on and off), but, options for extended travel anywhere you want to go, options at anytime for resaleability, (leased battery contracts might have the owner stuck with the car for three to five years).
*GM’s retention of value (to keep your Volt loan-funding provider happy as it is a secured note for most of us), and,
*you just don’t have to worry that the battery might not get warranted at some point as compared to the shorter term MTBF (mean time before failure) in conjuction with that lease contract. Rolling in an old residual battery lease debt into a new battery lease factor (higher effective APR) and new lease principle ought to be kept in mind in this scenario as a possibility as well. (Get ironclad terms in writing regarding things like this in the form of price protections and garanteed lower cost of offered anywhere within the OEM’s system if buying the Leaf).
Liquid cools down a surface 20 times better than air. It does not look like air is going to be able to get to cool the innermost packs in each stack. Although the rate of discharge for a larger pack would generate less heat certainly, charging faster would be more undesireable. Another thing is that precise balancing for the innermost heat-building areas as well as the outermost end cells for cold prevention might be some difficulties and risk for longevity-penalty factors.
But overall, it looks like the pack is easily R&R’d by the appearance of the mounts as pictured above. This *might* be the way to go for Nissan where improved solid state batteries are anticipated to come on line for them in four years as is the case for GM.
**You**, however, will have **no choice** but to pay whatever price is assigned to that replacement battery, as those of us in the independent servicing and the aftermarket parts suppliers might be locked out of this market software-wise and warranty-wise at the very least.
So, do not expect “free market and competitive prices” here whatsoever.
***Most likely:***
You are still going to get hit for a new generation pack though, one way or another, (lease or no lease), and, where the pack may cost somewhere between (my estimated) $7,000 to $9,000 for the value (cost of gasoline a factor?) of what it might do for a consumer for, say, five or six years instead of just 3 or 4, it will all cost more than Volt after all.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (8:58 am)The ICE, however, will never start automatically when plugged or parked. ICE’s cannot be run without suitable ventilation and clearance from combustibles. A non-stationary unattended ICE is a bad idea. It’s been said that cars are parked 90% of the time and once parked EREV and BEV seem fairly similar.
With a big battery and a plug the same heat an ICE generates can be gained electrically. Though it may affect the longevity of the battery packs.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:04 am)Why are folks so negative until they know the facts. What if the battery lease is $150 a month for folks that average 50 mile daily average AER. So for 1500 miles a month, if that saves you 50 gallons of gas, and if gas is $4 a gallon in a few years. Then a lease of $150 saves me $50 on gas to cover the electricity, a wash.
Obviousy the Leaf isn’t for everybody, but it might work out for me and surely there are a few hundred thousand folks out there that can daily do 50 miles AER.
The Volt will surely appeal to more people, but the Leaf depending on cost and quality could be a great option for many.
We’ll have to WAIT and see.
But the point is I’m sure the Leaf’s battery Warranty price will be set to be cheaper than the cost of Gas. Otherwise it would be a hard sell.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (9:06 am)#10 Dave G;
You will see plenty of competition. Plugin hybrids on one side and electric cars like the Leaf on the other. The Volt being from both camps.
I LIKE the idea of a parallel Hybrid, expec. with the 1st 40 miles electric.
Exciting!
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:10 am)01/28/2010 8:51 am
DEARBORN, Mich. (AP) — Ford, the only U.S. automaker to avoid bankruptcy court, clawed its way to a $2.7 billion profit in 2009 and expects to stay in the black in 2010. It was the automaker’s first annual profit in four years.
Ford’s full-year revenue of $118.3 billion fell nearly 20 percent from 2008, but the Dearborn-based automaker benefited from cost-cutting, a $696 million profit in its credit arm and popular cars and trucks like the Ford Fusion midsize sedan and Ford Escape small SUV. It gained market share in North and South America and Europe, despite the worst U.S. sales climate in 30 years.
=D~
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+7
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:13 am)I would never consider the LEAF due to the fact that I live in Ohio where the temperature swing from summer to winter is dramatic. In the dead of winter, without any thermal management, I wouldn’t be surprised if the LEAF eeked out 50 miles max on a full charge – and without a range extender!
No thanks.
I’ll take the thoughtfully engineered Volt and I’m willing to pay more for it.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:17 am)… there might be other solutions out there besides liquid or air heating/cooling comforting the battery…
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+5
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:21 am)I have two concerns with the Leaf, and I think in the end, they will have a very limited release if any this year. My guess is that they lease the whole car for a short (1-2) years lease then pull them back off the market much like the Mini-E vehicle today. They get the press that they are build a BEV car (much like Honda Clarity).
My first concern is battery life. They are using 80 % or more of the battery capacity to reach the 100 miles/charge mark. This will age the batteries very fast. Another consideration is how the battery will be charged. If a person attempts to drive further then range in a day, he/she will try to get power were ever they can. This limited charging can also have an effect on reducing battery life. Lyle, It would be interested near the end of your Mini-E lease if you could drive the same distance and at the same temperature as a trip you did when you first got the car. Can you detect a range difference ? If you can, that is just 1 year, what happens after 3 years, or 5 years.
The second concern is the lease, which to me is just wrong. Lease payments will be significant. A quick calculation was $340 per month for 5 years to pay off an $18,000 investment. $295 if the pack has $3000 value left ater 5 year. A lease has a set payment terms. You could disput with Nissan about the battery life not be sufficent after 2 years, but they could disagree, yet you are forced to continue to make these payments or if you refuse, do they take half the car? This is just not right.
It has been mentioned that Nissan will replace batteries after a couple of years with new and improved ones, and everybody will be happy. That is a huge financial hit for Nissan. If they sell 180,000 vehicle over 3 years, then decide that they got this wonderful new battery that they will change out, @$10,000 per vehicle that is $1.8 billion dollars. Are they real going to do this ?
GM approach builds in many considerations for battery life. This is much less risky for the consumer and the car company.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:22 am)Hey guys this article made me think for the first time about when its time to replace the Volt and any issues we may have with this. I said ‘when’ because I plan on owning a volt asap and not a leaf so lets keep that clear. So if the battery life is ten years and I keep the car for 7 to 10 years like I have my previous cars I wonder what the value of the car would be when I want to sell it or trade it in. Someone who is considering the car would need to factor in a potential huge chunk of change to replace the battery in addition to what I want for the car. In other words, I am theorizing only that it will cost a heck of a lot more to buy and run a used Volt than a similar gas car at that point. I wonder if that will impact my ability to trade in or sell it…seems like the trade in value that I would pocket could end up being much lower as a result? What do you think?
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+2
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:26 am)http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/01/nissan-japanese-post-office-team-to-offer-history-of-electric-vehicle-stamps.htm
I was going to paste the article here but , I thought better about it .
If anyone wants to see it you can go here to read it .
I wouldn’t worry about the Japanese battery on this car .
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:33 am)Nearly no one has changed their Prius battery. I think it will be the same for the initial Volts, the way they are engineered there just won’t be a need. People who want absolutely new car specs, will not be buying 5, 10 or 15 year old cars, unless they want to completely restore them any way.
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+5
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:34 am)The air cooled pack will present some issues for Nissan. But keep in mind that the system being used in the Leaf is not radically different than that used in the Tesla Roadster or the mini-E, which is why those cars sometimes need to be parked in hot weather.
The Leaf is being rolled out in climates which, with one exception, are reasonably mild. Plus the limited range means that unlike say the Tesla Roadster the pack will not have as much opportunity to overheat.
The Nissan roll out strategy is risky but not crazy. GM took a risk with the Volt in that it didn’t wait for the battery to be ready — it developed the car alongside its battery testing, essentially assuming the battery would work. The payoff is that it moved up the roll out by several years. Nissan is basically doing the same thing. It’s bringing out the car while assuming the next generation battery pack will fix a lot of the problems with the first generation pack. Like I said, ballsy but not crazy.
Also note that Siry worked for Tesla. Maybe this is his real feelings about the engineering on the Roadster. He also consults for Coda, which is a direct competitor to the Leaf so there are some professional issues as well.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (9:38 am)Output would be limited if the cells are very cold, down to -20 or so? .. but they would warm up quick if plugged in since they will probably have electric heaters built in. In any case even if the output is severely depressed you still have a very large pack able to output SOME power, probably enough to bootstrap itself into a higher, more comfortable temperature level.
A solid block of prismatic cells touching each other conduct heat very well.. the modules are sized so that they have an even temperature throughout. Cylindrical cells such as Tesla uses are more difficult to cool. Not sure why cylindrical cells have become the standard size in the industry, probably due to legacy battery manufacturing equipment.
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:38 am)Tom,
Point taken as far as the risk Nissan is making. However, my greater concern is how a poor initial product will influence public perceptions of EV’s.
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:38 am)JohnK: The REAL threat is to the future of BEV’s.(Quote)
My thought was that if the Leaf batteries have many failures, not only will people shy away from BEVs, and EREV advocates will not be converted, but that it gives the EV naysayers so much ammunition that it effects the general public’s acceptance of EVs in general. This would slow down the whole move to get off of oil.
(That may be what JeffB was saying, not sure.) Looks like FME III just said the same thing.
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+7
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:38 am)The ‘Tow Truck Driver’s Association’ (if there is one) will appreciate Nissan’s efforts to increase their business in 2010 and 2011.
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+2
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:39 am)I’m starting to get the same feeling about whether Nissan will hit the target roll out dates as well. Nothing specific, it’s just that you’d expect more activity in the selected roll out markets.
As for lease payments for the battery, Nissan’s idea is that the car will cost the same as its ICE counterpart and the lease payments for the battery pack will be about the same as what you’d pay at the pump. If this is true then this might be positive in dollars and sense given the lower maintenance costs of an EV versus and ICE vehicle.
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:39 am)Isn’t the Tesla pack liquid cooled and constantly conditioned and balanced?
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:41 am)Perhaps someone can refresh my memory. Aren’t there multiple Li-ion cell manufacturing techniques with different thermal susceptibilities? Do we know what species of cells Nissan will be using?
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Jan 28th, 2010 (9:51 am)Think of it as buying gas for the car every month.. thats another payment that does not go away normally. Nissan promises that the cost of the Leaf purchase + monthly battery lease + electricity will be less than a comparable car + monthly gasoline. So you will save money and reduce 100% your support of terrorists and Chavez. I dont see the down side on this. You have to make the personal decision that it makes economic sense to you, and if your driving patterns fit within the range of the Leaf.. very few people drive more than 70 miles in one day.
With a 10 year battery life, what possible maintenance expenses can a Leaf have?.. windshield wiper fluid refills?
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+2
Jan 28th, 2010 (9:56 am)This is the big problem I see. I don’t think the Leaf will be a very good choice in the North. Infact it may be a deadly choice. The range could be very short when it is below zero outside. That is also the worst time to get stranded.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (9:58 am)Yes not a bad experiment. I’m looking forward to seeing the results v. all the speculation. Interesting times !!
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Jan 28th, 2010 (10:06 am)Dan, the cells themselves do a good job conducting heat among each other. In any case lithium cells generate very little heat either while being fast charged or discharged.. they only heat up when the cells are nearly full or nearly empty but those are conditions that no sane manufacturer will ever allow to be reached. Cell balancing will always be ongoing while the pack is plugged in.
In any case Nissan makes their own cells, so they know exactly how much they will cost to replace and how long they will last, and the cells probably cost them less than what GM is paying.
Since the car has no emissions at all, CARB does not regulate the battery warranty… it does not matter anyways since Nissan wants to lease the battery.
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-1
Jan 28th, 2010 (10:09 am)The leaf probably makes most sense for 2 car families (of which there are more than a few I’m sure). You use the Leaf to maximize your AER. All trips under 70 miles. You use your other car for longer trips, and likely for trips in blizzards with sub zero temperatures (which happens like once a year in ohio).
Certainly the Leaf may not be best choice for Fargo Residents.
But who knows, maybe EVs will turn out to perform better in cold weather than ICE cars. Certainly AER goes down, but once battery warms up it should perform fine.
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (10:13 am)I happen to like the engineering of the LEAF from what has been published so far. It looks like a simple, reliable design.
Since they are re-using the air that heat/cooled the humans, they are saving energy that Volt is dumping out into the air via all it’s heat exchangers.
I doubt that thermal run-away is an issue with the newer chemistry. The laptop battery problem is ancient history at this point.
I like the concept of a BEV. We shall see if it’s practical.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (10:14 am)I’m very curious about the apparently metallic enclosures that seem to occupy roughly 1/3rd of the Leaf’s battery “tray”. If this is simply an exposed section of the battery —i.e., with the black plastic “skin” removed to show the interior components, it might make sense. Does anyone know what these sections contain or what their functions are?
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Jan 28th, 2010 (10:18 am)The MINIMUM battery life for the Volt is 10 years/150k miles.. but they will probably be good for 15-20 years.. obviously this will affect the used price of the Volt and you will want to have it checked out completely at the dealership before purchase.. I would also want to see the complete dealer records on the maintenance, and double check all the seals on the battery and connectors. I definitely do not want a Volt that some software hacker messed with.
I am sure GM will have a Certified Used Volt program. You run some risks with the battery but on the other hand there is no transmission to go bad (God.. I hate transmissions!), brakes and ICE should be good forever also.
A complete cycle of the battery will determine the state of its remaining life (allowing for fixed calendar life).. but that will probably be a test that can only be done at the dealership with special equipment, and very carefully.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (10:39 am)The silver colored ones?.. those are cell modules, I estimate about 68 of them (if the picture is accurate) perhaps each one at 3.5VDC nominal in series to reach 238VDC, each module has a capacity of 100Ah.. probably each one consisting of 4 prismatic cells, 12.5Ah per cell.
The electrical connections are not shown, neither is the BMS system and strategically placed thermal insulation pads or heaters.. the picture is probably an artistic representation.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (10:52 am)Why not?.. the used batteries will be practically brand new and very usable for grid stabilization by the utility companies.. it may end up being very profitable for Nissan.
Nissan may also want the opportunity to test and balance the cells every couple of years.. and keep the dealership happy with the extra revenue
Windmills have a large de-stabilizing effect on the grid, and they are springing up everywhere.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (10:52 am)I continue to wonder if Carlos Ghosn has also initiated a highly-secret “skunk works” type effort to develop an optional version of the Leaf that for example:
1) Removes ~1/3rd of the battery, reducing it to 16KWh, with added space for an active HVAC
2) Adds, say, a 1.0L gas engine & generator under the hood for unlimited range as an EREV *
“Leaf II” would allow them to compete directly with the Volt & other EREVs. And it would still let them gain the experience of “Leaf I’s” electric drive train, regenerative braking, etc, etc ….as well as retain the advantage of an early entry into EV marketing with “Leaf I”.
* “Leaf II” would also give Nissan’s patent attorneys & engineers time to work their way thru the complex problem of avoiding infringement of Voltec’s multiplicity of patents as well as much needed testing and design refinement time
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (10:53 am)I have a very good battery in my truck, a yellow top Optima.
This is a fairly ’state of the art’ deep cycle automotive battery.
In the summer it turns the truck over so hard the truck ’tilt’s’ with the torque.
in the winter it starts the truck just fine but is no-where near as powerful.
A non-temperature stabilized battery pack is one that is in a car that will be unusable because of safety issues for much of the year.
Bad/cold weather often means bad traffic which means sitting stuck in traffic with the heater blowing hard while having the battery under temp and weak. Add in the extra load of using winter tires and the general ’stiffness’ of cold mechanical ‘bits’ and you have a recipe for disaster.
For the record “All Season” tires are really SUMMER tires that can handle a little muck. Below +8c regular tires become much harder and give very little traction.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the Volt is the only electric car design that will satisfy my requirements to be an everyday car.
No range extender, no sale.
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (10:57 am)Envision this parallel universe scenario, and tell me how the Japanese fanboyz would respond:
GM announced today that their new engine will use a sub-standard cooling system. As a result, it is likely that the aluminum engine block will stress and crack sometime in the next 5 years. However, GM has agreed to cover this under a 10-year drivetrain warranty so that GM will cover the cost of the engine replacement.
Do you think people would be saying “Who cares? As long as it’s covered under the warranty and doesn’t cost me anything…”? No, it would be a major blow to GM’s reputation, just as the Leaf will be to Nissan once people realize that their battery not only gets a mere 2/3 the drive range advertised, but goes belly up in a few short years. Big trouble on the horizon for Nissan with this car…
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-6
Jan 28th, 2010 (11:09 am)FUD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
“They mock what they do not understand.”
Just like range, the biggest factor in thermal control is user behavior.
If you are looking for solutions, a mirror is not a bad place to start.
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+4
Jan 28th, 2010 (11:12 am)The difference between GM and Nissan about electric car design is that one is serious about it and the other not so serious.
Let’s face it; the LEAF is nothing more than a PR stunt. The only thing Nissan will be able to accomplish with it is to damage its reputation in the long run.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (11:18 am)Not that I’m necessarily a Japanese fanboy (I drive a Ford) but I’ll respond.
Actually, GM did do something like this (see Chevy Vega). Except for the 10 year warranty part. It helped Japanese automakers get to the marketshare they hold in America today.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (11:20 am)Yup. My point exactly. This seems like something the US car makers would do in the late 70’s / early 80’s.
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (11:23 am)Well, if I had ever considered a LEAF, that would be enough to change my mind. Winters can get really cold in upstate New York. And I need a car that will start.
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+2
Jan 28th, 2010 (11:31 am)Here in CA, this is perfectly fine. Never get’s below 28F, big whop. Too hot, turn the fans on. I see no prob with it here in the warm belt. heheheh…
Anyone know what chem they are using for the cells? I wanna say their also LiMn but whadoIknow.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (11:31 am)#15
Somebody said the other day that GM will now actually be General “Motors”. And I guess motoring will actually be “motoring”, LOL. And the Brits who call cars “motors” will be right. Good point! +1
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (11:34 am)Well, I dunno dude. Nissan has already built and has EV’s running at better place. So who’s really serious?.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b0T5NUHyxs
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Jan 28th, 2010 (11:35 am)Yall see this?
“Ford Stops Production of Van In China for Gas Pedal Problem”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584146,00.html
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (11:39 am)Consumer Reports currently recommends quite a few American cars. Including the Ford Fusion, the Chevy Malibu, the Ford Taurus, the Buick Lucerne, Mercury Sable, Lincoln Navigator, Ford Expedition, Chevy Traverse, etc.
They just published their “most satisfying car to own” ratings. And the Dodge Challenger came out on top. (which they most emphatically do not recommend.) After that is the Corvette, and the Ford Fusion Hybrid.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine-archive/2010/january/cars/owner-satisfaction/overview/owner-satisfaction-ov.htm
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Jan 28th, 2010 (11:40 am)By design of any BMS, conditioned and balanced SHOULD always be the default feature.
I am pretty sure the Tesla is air cooled as well. But that’s a big assed pack though.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (11:51 am)Well I’m not gonna buy a Leaf in any case, so it’s all academic to me. I totally agree that simplicity is good, if it works, LOL. “It’ll count if it goes!” Most times, Chick would follow up with, “It didn’t go!”. Lotsa luck Carlos.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (11:53 am)I am pretty sure Nissan is using LiMn cells.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (11:57 am)Let’s just hope they really last 5 years. Hopefully by that time the other EVs will be well settled in people’ minds and no one but Leaf owners will care.
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-2
Jan 28th, 2010 (12:00 pm)Has anyone ever said that electric vehicles don’t start in cold weather? No. Any time current is available to the motor (i.e., when you activate the start switch) , it’s started and ready to haul a@@ when the throttle/controller lets it lap up juice, regardless of temparture. Your comment is the sadly the sort I’ve come to expect from folks relatively or completely inexperienced in using properly made electric vehicles and after being exposed to a century of FUD about them.
My air cooled electric motor slightly prefers winter and my power pack slightly prefers spring and fall. They both work fine in summer (I’m still easily beating BMWs off the line) . Put that all together and you have a perfectly satisfactory year round balance. Other folks may prefer different configurations. That’s allowed. Different and deficient are not the same thing.
Frankly, the Volt already has enough of a challenge trying to explain its own many, many benefits, advantages and superiorities to folks without trying to diss other non-competing configurations.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:01 pm)WEll, here everyone is slamming the batt pack performance of the Leaf and I recall this statement….
“Lutz told a reporter from the Dow Jones that he drove the Volt for a weekend recently during the cold Detroit winter, and found he got only 28 miles of electric range.”
From: http://gm-volt.com/2010/01/11/lutz-volts-range-will-vary-considerably-pure-electric-volt-coming/
Even with all the thermal control of the Volt? And many are slamming the Leafs pack for being air cooled?
Clearly the packs are much more different in that the Leaf will probably DOD to 70%, maybe 75% and the Volts will not dare, but will still be hindered by the cold? Supwitdat?
Sheeeesh….
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (12:02 pm)Please let us know all about what you find out tomorrow.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:04 pm)According to CTS, the gas pedal that was “designed to Toyota specifications” was not shared with any other automaker. They claim that the problem was Toyota’s design. Not their part. Admittedly, they’re a little bit biased. Not their part. But Toyota issued a statement absolving CTS, and is using them to build the replacement part.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/01/pedal-parts-supplier-cts-says-this-is-toyotas-recall/1
The Ford productions stop sounds like a precaution on Ford’s part since they haven’t had any actual problems. It makes sense since the design for that particular van is similar. But it’s unique to that van. CTS only started supplying that pedal for that van in December, and they don’t supply pedals for any other Ford vehicle.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN289865920100128?type=marketsNews
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (12:09 pm)Envision another parallel universe:
“NISSAN chooses foolproof solid state battery system with failsafe passive cooling system.. meanwhile GM faces another recall due to corrosion issues and coolant leakage inside the battery case”
as the old adage goes: “simplificate and add lightness”
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:09 pm)Ultimately, and this is MHO, Toy is responsible.
Been in production long enough to know that the product as a whole is the reponsibilty of the whole products owner.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:10 pm)But wouldn’t you agree that having the customer provide the test data is a rather ass-backward way to find the answer to the question? If I shell out $25-30K (or more) for a new car, I want to be sure all systems are well engineered out and factory tested before I write the check.
I don’t trust Nissan’s intentions with the Leaf. Ghosn is going to eat his words and yes, I also feel the entire BEV community will not be well served if indeed the LEAF proves to be the sham I’ve come to think it really is.
When are we going to see a production-intent version of the LEAF, instead of these cobbled-up mules of which there are just a few? The promised date of production is getting nearer…….
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:13 pm)You think it was thermal issues on the Volt or just general winter driving yuckiness.. or maybe even Mr Jetpilot Lutz driving? .. Your mileage may vary.
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+4
Jan 28th, 2010 (12:13 pm)I’m no engineer. But I’ve had difficulty getting battery run appliances to work when the batteries are really cold. And I’ve heard people say they’ve had difficulty getting their ICE cars start when it gets really cold. So it makes sense to me that it would be more of an issue with a BEV.
If that’s not an issue for the LEAF–great! But I’d like to hear from them that they’ve at least considered the possibility and taken precautions.
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (12:14 pm)Any engineer related with battery design knows attention be paid to thermal considerations. So whether to apply passive (Leaf) or dynamic (VOLT) thermal control is, depending on Leadership priorities, a tough call. In either case, Daryl Siry makes valid points. First off GM must, as VOLT is a groundbreaking drive, do everything possible for market-acceptance & success, so that 10 year FULL life plays big time. Whereas having to lease a EV battery is a deal-breaker – Nissan knows that – but it may well be not having thermal management manifests warranty issues and thereby this marketing heart-burn leasing concept.
Aside from all that; I believe (my past products design always following this) the most difficult design details identified and be dealt with early on – and resolved period no matter what. VOLT’s design approach is absolutely correct in all respects and maybe the only way to go.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:17 pm)lol……
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (12:17 pm)I don’t know enough to know the differences between air cooled and GM’s extensive precautions. All I know is that with the Volt, if the battery runs into problems, there’s an electric generator that can be used as a backup. So, if the AER shrinks to 20 miles, I can still get to my destination.
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+2
Jan 28th, 2010 (12:18 pm)Its 12 degrees F where i’m at in Michigan (-6 with the windchill). Would the Leaf even make it to the end of my driveway? (j/k)
My point is that its not just heat, i’m really concerned about the winter cold.
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (12:19 pm)With just 70,000 Volt available in 14 months time. And the first lot of Volt selling for more than the sticker price ($39,000?). 95% of us will feel erased.
Why post $39,000 as the price? Because Mr Whitacre mentioned low $30’s. And the other EV companies are quoting after tax credit price as “the price”. There is a very high chance that GM is following suit.
PS: The Leaf will price at $20k minimum after tax credit. Plus the monthly battery lease (for life?).
=D~
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:24 pm)I think once the new batteries come on-line in the next few years they will use them to keep the same range and lower the cost of the pack down to $5k.. or perhaps increase the range a bit depending on customer satisfaction levels. I would think most people would be happy with 70 miles no-matter-what range.
They could also offer more options on battery size when you buy the car.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:25 pm)I thought tesla is no longer air cooling?
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (12:26 pm)Interesting how this is a Chevy Volt site and how we don’t know too much of the Leaf but call it the same as what the Volt has been called for the past few years as “Vaporware”. If you really want to know more, I would say checkout a Leaf site?
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:29 pm)I like all the competition going on with ev’s. Competition serves the advancement of battery technology, especially with the varying demands of ev’s. When the actual prices are known for lease and sales People will be able to make a reasonable guess as to what vehicle may or may not work for their situation. It will be interesting to see what kind of terms will be applied to battery leases. For example, will we be penalized for driving 30,000 miles a year?
At this point, the Volt’s battery pack should last the longest, however I like the idea of upgrading to a better battery hopefully soon using a battery lease option. I like the concept of lower cost with less maintenance using fewer components, KISS.
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+2
Jan 28th, 2010 (12:31 pm)AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!
OMG, I about died laughing when I read this…..
“To clarify our previous tweet, the DOE formula estimates 367mpg for Nissan LEAF.”
http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2009/0811/nissan-laughs-off-threat-from-chevy-volt
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
Aw maaannn…MPG from battery power. You would think that in science if you are not consuming liquid fuel, a rating of liquid fuel consumption would be completely irrelevant.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:33 pm)JACK – “I’m a recall coordinator. My job is to apply the formula. It’s a story problem.
A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 miles per hour. The rear differential locks up.
The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now: do we initiate a recall?
Take the number of vehicles in the field, (A), and multiply it by the probable rate of failure, (B), then multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement, (C). A times B times C equals X…
If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don’t do one.”
BUSINESS WOMAN – “Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?”
JACK – “Oh, you wouldn’t believe”
BUSINESS WOMAN – “… Which… car company do you work for?”
JACK – “A major one.”
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:34 pm)Microsoft does it all the time. They call it Beta testing but …………..
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:38 pm)I could be wrong but I recall reading somewhere that they will be using the same batt pack from the Roadster on to the Model “S” and that is going to be the last model the batt pack will be used on. I think they will be switching over to prismatic or pouch style cells.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:39 pm)Don’t forget RC1 & RC2….
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (12:45 pm)I don’t think that Microsoft is anyone’s idea of a model for quality control. I have no problem with them releasing advance copies for beta testing. But the beta testers should at least know that they’re beta testing. Unlike, say, everyone who got stuck with Vista.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:48 pm)I posted this a few threads back.
Here’s how it was back in my production floor working days…
Us: Your cable doesn’t fit right…
Supplier: Yes it does.
Us: No it doesn’t. You changed the cable.
Supplier: The cable meets your specs.
Us: But now it’s blocking sensitive thermal sensors.
Supplier: But it meets your specs, Length, Impeadence, bend ratio and stress relief.
Us: But you changed to a wider girth/width cable.
Supplier: Your specs don’t indicate Width/Girth of the cable.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:51 pm)The reason ICEs are harder to start when it is cold is that they are oil assisted metal rapidly moving past metal and when the oil is cold and thick and slower and harder to spread, there’s more resistance, so it’s harder to get going. That’s part of why you have to very slowly warm an ICE up before it can give you it’s best performance and then work very hard to keep it from overheating and part of why we went to electric starters to get ICEs going in the early part of last century.
Since you already accept the horrendous existing deficiencies of ICEs ( I could go on and on and on), the minor variations in EV performance and specs due to environment and user behavior, all of which can be easily mitigated by the user applying common sense, ought to be a snap for you. But, you are welcome to be a foot dragger. A century of well funded FUD can have that effect on folks.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:51 pm)#89
Amen. You’ve got a witness! +1
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:55 pm)YES!
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:56 pm)#88
On the other hand, I heard a report on NPR this Am to the effect that some of the parts are made by CTS, and some by Denso. Supposedly, all of the problems have been with CTS parts, and none with Denso. They interviewed a manager from a Toyota dealer in the DC area who said that they had mechanics under the dashes checking the name on the part. If it was a Denso, they supposedly told the customers not to worry. I can see the schools of lawyers circling now. The blood’s in the water.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:57 pm)Hey, I learned something today. Thanks EVO!
I thought it was just some madeup urban acronym. “Fucked Up Dummy” or something.
lol….. you can teach an ‘ol dawg’
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:58 pm)OK…
If you are going there then you have to consider that the entire Linux world is nothing more than an ongoing Beta.
(I have an Android ‘Linux’ HTC Dream phone so I can talk to this.)
Although I’m definitely in the Volt’s camp I do have respect for Nissan’s efforts. There will be places where BEV’s can be useful.
Here I need a range extender in a car that can park outside at -25c overnight and still be functional, That is the Volt.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (12:58 pm)lots of misinformation about Tesla.
Battery pack – liquid cooled, always has been – part of their base design
cylindrical cells – all of them, Roadster and S. New agreement with Panasonic for future cells for the S are standard cylindrical.
cylindrical cells have higher surface area to volume than anything else (other than a sphere) and provide better cooling (larger prismatic cells are worse on 2 counts – bigger, so cooling must get deeper into cell, and edges/corners will be hot spots
Tesla can circulate coolant to keep the batteries even, or add heat or A/C to warm or cool. Never heard about “have to park it when it’s hot outside” – just the opposite, the AC kicks in more when it’s driven. AC will be diverted to the batteries before the occupant, when needed (as in high-performance)
Tesla did a lot of engineering to prevent the “Dell Meltdown” problem since the commodity 18650 Li-ion batteries are the same as Dell used. There’s a whitepaper on their site that explains a lot of this.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:00 pm)Uhh, brake reconditioning. Shocks. U-joints. Steering components. Of course the electric traction motor can’t possibly fail – no wear and tear on that – no dust or vibration. Same with the control electronics. Maybe the headlights will last forever if they are LED’s.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:01 pm)#101
Yeah but be careful. They might start calling us “trolls”, LOL. +1
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:03 pm)I STAND CORRECTED!!!
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf
Last paragraph on page 3:
“The picture below (Figure 1) shows the complete battery pack on a cart. Note the tubes and
manifold extending out of the battery pack at its lower long edge. These are used to circulate
cooling fluid (a 50/50 mix of water and glycol) throughout the pack via sealed fluid paths. This
enables us to keep the cells thermally balanced. This extends the life of the battery pack and also
has numerous safety benefits.”
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (1:05 pm)I agree. And it would be ironic (and unfortunate IMO) if by doing so, Nissan damages the image of electrification.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:07 pm)also, the battery pack is different for the Roadster than the S (Roadster is vertical behind the seats, the S is a flatpack underneath), although they use the same commodity cells (18650’s with the S having higher amperage). Also (based on observation) it’s hard to get the batteries to heat up in the cold from normal driving – I can get the electronics to heat up to about 30% and the motor to about 20%, but the batteries stay in the zero-to-10% range. Don’t depend upon driving to warm up the batteries (I find the best way is to just keep it plugged in overnight and let the AC do the heating – more active than when using battery power, but this is a programming decision).
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:07 pm)Aren’t the Dell Meltdown cells from a Sony chemistry that is no longer marketed?
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:11 pm)The danger for GM here is that if potential Volt consumers hear about bad experiences and horror stories that the LEAF customers had with their EV’s (as well as negative product reviews of the LEAF) that this may scare away these potential consumers from considering buying the Volt or any other EV, PHEV, or EREV.
My understanding as well is that GM is hoping that EV programs among carmakers will succeed in general so as to support a robust parts industry with economies of scale, which in turn, will keep costs down for all carmakers.
Fortunately though, I believe that GM has been metriculous with the Volt and that the car can stand on its own merits.
Go Volt…George, Canada
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:12 pm)In a mostly-mild climate, the Leaf may actually work pretty well as a “local trip only” car.
What I find interesting is this idea that an EV manufacturer can officially divorce itself from responsibility for the battery, via a lease-only provision. This may be, as others have said, simply a way to create a fleet for which later batteries might be better suited.
What NIssan and Panasonic may be risking by doing this is the possibility that they will not be the only provider for future LEAF batteries. Compare the simplicity of their pack design to that of the Volt’s, and imagine how much easier it would be to replace it with a different kind of pack (which would have only it’s shape in common with the original). If the lease or replacement provisions offered through Nissan for 100,000+ LEAF battery packs is unpleasant in any way (and assuming that future batteries are more inherently temperature-tolerant), how long will it take someone like A123 or Ceramatec to come up with a third-party offering?
How can Nissan prevent other manufacturers from stepping into the LEAF battery-replacement business, when they themselves hold their own battery at arm’s length, so to speak.
If third party pack suppliers do appear, many LEAF owners might turn to them simply to get out of a lease-only situation.
This policy of “batteries not included” could well turn out to be a double-edged sword for Nissan.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:12 pm)what does FUD stand for?
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:13 pm)lithium ion meltdown is due to contaminants in the chemicals. The link that Captain Jack provided above ( http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf ) is the whitepaper that I referred to. Tesla probably spent more time on the conditioning system (and every firmware update that they come out with seems to tweak this is some way or another) involves cooling. Note that in the whitepaper that every cell has a fuse on each end (that’s 13,662 fuses) to prevent “runaway meltdown” from moving from the failed battery to its neighbor. I believe the chemistry has not changed. Take a look at the whitepaper and tell me if you read it differently.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:13 pm)By competition for the Volt, I mean a car that:
• runs on electricity or gasoline
• has at least 30 miles all-electric range
• is built by a major car maker
• is real, with an announced production date
By this definition, there is currently no competition for the Volt.
That would be competition for the Volt. For example, the Mercedes-Benz BlueZERO E-CELL PLUS:
http://www.emercedesbenz.com/Sep09/02_001712_Mercedes_Benz_BlueZERO_E_Cell_PLUS_Second_Look.html
is actually a parallel Hybrid, and has 60 miles AER. Too bad this is just a conecpt car, with no announced production date…
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:14 pm)This is not science
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:14 pm)never mind, just read it, Fear , Uncertainty, Doubt.
got it
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:14 pm)I haven’t been mocking. And I haven’t been talking about things I don’t understand.
And if by biggest factor is user behavior – it is a cop-out if the car has to be left in the garage because it is 15 fairenheit outside.
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+2
Jan 28th, 2010 (1:15 pm)Personally I don’t think the Leaf is a threat at all to the Volt. I predict that Nissan will release the Leaf only in the “Sunbelt” states.
Of course again, that’s JMHO
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-1
Jan 28th, 2010 (1:17 pm)My post was not a response to you.
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (1:17 pm)I’m using Vista now and I don’t think that
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+3
Jan 28th, 2010 (1:19 pm)I’m using Vista now and I don’t think that it’s really
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (1:20 pm)I’m using Vista now and I don’t think it’s that much
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:20 pm)You’re one of the rare minority then. In the “Enterprise” Vista sucked big time. We completely skipped over that OS and have moved directly to W7.
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+4
Jan 28th, 2010 (1:21 pm)Nevermin
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+1
Jan 28th, 2010 (1:23 pm)@136….
Nevermind…..
That jeffhre guys a comedian.
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+4
Jan 28th, 2010 (1:25 pm)LOL
+1 x 4
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:25 pm)Yes, I have always been under the impression this whole LEAF design started out FOR Project Better Place, not as an electric vehicle for the US. If that were the case, then it makes a lot of sense from Nissan’s standpoint to push the battery problems off somewhere else.
But that’s probably unfair as well, since they must have been making the cars compatible with whatever battery specification that project better place wanted.
It probably would have been interesting to find out what the discussions were between PBP and Nissan about battery pack since every aspect of the car/battery interaction could affect the life of the battery and PBP’s eventual costs.
In any case, I much prefer the Volt’s “you buy your battery with the car which will help you take care of it” approach rather than PBP’s swapping batteries around and getting somebody else’s abused low-capacity battery every so often. ( when you least expect it
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:34 pm)nasaman, Here’s a similar picture that makes it obvious that they’ve just exposed a portion of the interior of the pack:
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:36 pm)They did that. It was called a Vega. The engines didn’t last 3 years due to using an unsleeved aluminum block.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:37 pm)Don’t the chemistries in cells get tweaked constantly, to produce new and evolved products better characteristics. Be they commodity sized cells or custom prismatics I’m guessing about the only constant is change.
(Is prismatics even a word?)
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:38 pm)That’s a good question. It uses air to cool the liquid. So while Tesla may say otherwise it’s essentially “air cooled.” If this weren’t the case, and if the Tesla was actually liquid cooled, the Roadster wouldn’t have the problem with pack overheating. Ditto for the mini-Es. The Volt, which is liquid cooled, won’t have the same issues.
It’s not really possible to monitor and balance thousands of cells. The monitoring and so forth is mostly to prevent fire.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:42 pm)Good move. FWIW we’ve been running Win 7 on iMacs and depending on the app it’s a better combination than the Mac OS on the iMac. For example, Chrome on Win 7 is a winning combination.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:50 pm)You also buy gasoline ‘for life’. The battery lease is merely replacing purchase of different consumables.
My problem with it is that I may be buying more fuel (battery) than I actually use. The flip side is that the cost is fixed; unlike gasoline.
Given the pure simplicity (read low maintenance) of a BEV, I think they will do fine.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:56 pm)Yep, that’s why we use internal combustion engines and E-10 “gasoline” on our vehicles on the Moon and Mars.
/sarcasm off
Moon: Min/Max Surface Temperature: -387° to 253° F
Mars: Min/Max Surface Temperature: -125° to 23° F
No or slight atmosphere, as is true for high altitudes.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (1:59 pm)Project Better Place………. the swap stations do seem pretty slick, but……. only one stall? Considering BEVs have 1/3 the range of ICE vehicles, they’ll be needing battery swaps quite frequently. Considering a typical gasoline station can service eight ICE vehicles at once (Costco can do 12), I fear long lines of BEV’s waiting for their turn.
As I say, it’s an interesting idea but I need to be further convinced as to whether or not it is a practical solution for the real world. To be workable it would seem that many stations would be required, and at least six stalls per station. Cost to build such a swap station has got to be astronomical with all the robotic equipment and square footage needed per stall.
BEVs have big infrastructure hurdles to overcome which hurt their chances of mass market practicality. Thank god GM has found the way around those barriers via their creation of their EREV Volt.
EREVs are the only way to go at this point in time.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:04 pm)For those who want an EV now, there is a Solectria for sale on Ebay for $5,555. Seems prety reasonable if it is as advertised. Plan on adding the price of a new battery pack to the deal. I have nothing to do with the sale or the seller.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:05 pm)Both GM and Nissan’s battery can’t last 100,000 pure EV miles, PERIOD. Also GM will not be able to test 100,000 EV miles before rolling out. Of course they can cheat by driving 90,000 miles using gas, 10,000 using electricity, then the MPG will be something like 43 mpg.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:06 pm)For me the BEV will suffice. If there were a swap station and I could charge at home, why would I swap? BEV’s will have their place for suburbanites commuting. 75-80 Real miles from a bev is more than enough for some. We will not get rid of our ICE cars though. Need to take the long trek to Disneyland or wherever.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:08 pm)I have. The chat room at the Nissan site is populated like the Mojave desert.
GM’s been pretty transparent with the Volt during its development. Nissan’s been banging their drum loudly making many promises, but where’s the beef on the LEAF?
Show me, and I (may) shut up.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:09 pm)We are experiencing weather today that brings up another weakness of a BEV like the Leaf. Ice storms are rolling through and power outages are expected. Past ice storms have had power out for weeks. I filled my gas tanks of my vehicles, which can also be done with the Volt. Any BEV can be charged up before hand, but 70 miles range when no power is availible could be very inconvenient at best, and downright life threatening if it is needed.
Now, If I can just figure out how to power my house with the Volt under these conditions, I may be the most popular house in the neighborhood when this weather hits.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:19 pm)A Volt will allow you to replace your ICE car + still get you to Disneyland. There, be sure to visit Fantasyland and let us know if you run into Carlos Ghosn or not.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:26 pm)If I owned a BEV and knew these occured often, I would have bought one of these for $399:http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&source=hp&q=portable+generator&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=7447486124071759337&ei=7uJhS8bNHpGeswOx3YTHCw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCEQ8wIwAw#ps-sellers
Now, you didn’t hear this from me BUT, if you really wanted to tap that batt pack, here’s what you need to power your whatever…
DC-DC Converter: http://www.metricmind.com/data/mes_dcdc.pdf
Need to drop the Vout to 13.8VDC
Then connect the output to one of these: http://www.donrowe.com/inverters/puresine.html
Pick your power but don’t get one stronger than your DC-DC converter.
Last but not least, figure out a way to get to the + – terminals of the batt pack without breaking any seals labeled “Warranty void if seal is broken”. Then connect everything.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:30 pm)4 peeps in the Volt? on a 300+ mile drive with wife and daughter? Are you kidding me? You know how much women pack? lol…..
Did you see the leg room for the backseat riders?
Not gonna happen.
How do you pronounce the dudes last name anyway?
Anybody? Give me the phonetics if you will.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:37 pm)Theres a lot of 20,000 motorcycles that only come out of the garage on a nice day.
however I’m sure they wouldn’t sell these cars if this were a problem.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:39 pm)Nah, don’t want you to shutup. Keeps everything interesting.
It’s kind of hard to compare info from two entities when one will give you what they can and the other will give only what corporate says you can have.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:48 pm)I am of the opinion that the swap option will rarely be used by PBP customers.. why bother when you can recharge at home?. The swap option is just a marketing gimmick for people that are firmly wedded to the idea of quick refueling away from home. Until the demand is proven one quick swap station plus 3 30 minute chargers is more than enough, sell coffee and cigarettes also of course.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:56 pm)Then EVs can be given priority (maybe even an incentive) to park at gas stations to provide V2G for the gas pumps to work so that full gassers can get gasoline, as gas pumps do not work without electricity. The EVs can keep topping off at residential/business solar systems, as convenient. Rinse and repeat until the power is back on and full gassers can go back to their usual utterly electricity dependent ways. It’s no big deal. Yes, I’ve done it.
C’mon, folks, think.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (2:59 pm)You have some good points but you are bypassing the the main advantage of a liquid fueled engine.
It’s fast and easy to refuel.
You are correct in saying that little multi-million dollar high efficiency low power robots work on Mars using batteries, this is not in question.
It is however a very different situation when there are live humans in the mix. The simple truth is that batteries are weaker when cold.
Your enthusiasm for EV travel cannot change physics.
Are we overly concerned about EV capability in the cold? Maybe.
But it’s also quite possible that you are overly optimistic.
Is that FUD? Time will tell.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (3:03 pm)Competition is good.. can you imagine if other car companies started adopting the Nissan/Renault shape for the batteries?.. pretty soon they will be stuffing 50kwh of power inside those cases.. and then you can put two of those cases on a Ford Expedition conversion and get decent range. 100kwh in a BEV will be very interesting.
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Jan 28th, 2010 (3:06 pm)That is a very important feature.. if you are racing in the Indy 500… maybe there is a different way.
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