GM is taking the next critical step to position itself competitively in a future of electrified automobiles.
Vice Chairman Tom Stephens is announcing today that GM is expanding its in-house core competency to include the design and manufacture of electric motors. This will make the company the first major US automaker to mass produce its own electric motors.
Electric traction motors are a critical component for both hybrid and electric cars. Stephens likens them to the combustion engine, and the battery to the fuel tank. “In the future, electric motors might become as important to GM as engines are now,” Stephens said.
Doing this development and production in-house will allow the company to improve quality and reliability while at the same time reducing costs.
The first vehicle to launch with a GM-built electric motor will be the next generation rear-wheel drive 2-mode hybrid expected to arrive in 2013.
“Electric motor innovation supported the first wave of automotive growth a century ago with the electric starter, which eliminated the need for a hand crank, and revolutionized automotive travel for the customer,” said Stephens. “We think the electrification of today’s automobiles will be just as revolutionary and just as beneficial to our customers. Electric motors will play a huge role in that.”
GM has already gained considerable experience designing and building electric motors during the last seven years, and over that time has spent $44 million dollars quietly building up expertise and competence.
The new electric motor production project will receive an investment of $246 million which will go towards converting the Baltimore Transmission plant in White Marsh, Maryland into a mass production high volume electric motor plant.
GM says it will build some but not all of its electric motors, but also claims their expertise will better help them better understand the supply chain and to become better customers for buying some motors from outside suppliers.
Pete Savagian is GM’s Engineering Director, of Hybrid Powertrain Systems. He notes that electric motors are made up of a few core elements, including steel, wire, magnets, bearings, mountings, and cooling systems. H explains that it is important to optimize these elements to create motors that have high power density, low cost, and excellent longevity and performance. Reducing noise, vibration and harshness is another major tactic for improving customer satisfaction.
This new electric motor core competency and assembly plant adds a new thrust towards the goal of electrification of the automobile in addition to GM’s already operational Brownstown Volt battery pack assembly plant.
Make no mistake about it, this time the electric car is here to stay.
Jan 26th, 2010 (12:05 am)Jon Berisa said that GM halved the cost of building motors every year or so, and that was a goal. But he also said that motors were not the big deal. The big deal was the battery pack.
A lot of companies have expertise with motors so I’m not sure how critical motors are. I’m guessing this is more about understanding the supply chain and research into new ways to use the motors than it is about motor manufacturing. But I’m definitely not an expert in this area.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (12:39 am)This is when things get exciting. Sure as DonC very astutely observed, there are many companies who can build decent electric motors, however this is symbolic of GM throwing their hat over the fence and getting into the electric and hybrid car ring. With GM being a major player in the electric motor arena, they have way more incentive to make vehicles like the Volt successful than just a passing wave at electric cars. The other important thing is that as Lyle said, they have 7 years of expertise head start on the competition in electric motors, and now are the first to mass produce electric motors. Make no mistake, there is still a lot of room for technical progress to be made in electric traction motors for passenger vehicles like the Volt, by the time other automakers realize what’s going on, GM will be 3 generations ahead of the competition, not to mention by the time other automakers realize how small the 60 (real world) mile range – slow charge BEV market segment is compared to the extended range segment (especially with little if any financial advantage a BEV has over an EREV since the cost of the bigger battery easily makes up for a mass produced $2,000 4 cylinder engine that GM can make in their sleep) then GM will also likely by 3 generations ahead of the competition (remember GM has already been working on the Gen 3 Volt for at least a year now thanks to Lyle’s diligent interviews with behind the scenes Volt personnel). GM also has the most advanced battery testing labs which will guarantee they will have the best batteries available in their vehicles as soon as they are available AND they are producing their own battery packs (minus the cells) from day one of the Volt. All of this will lower costs and improve quality.
I’d say GM is way out in front and companies like Honda (and Toyota to some extent) that are dumping money into fuel cell vehicles that will likely never come down below $100,000 are going to be pretty befuddled when gas prices shoot back up to $4/gallon again in a year or they are starting from scratch.
Toyota and Ford are probably the only competitors that stand a chance to even be Insight’s to GM’s Prius (selling at 1/7th the volume) if that makes sense. Toyota bought a stake in an Argentine Lithium mine, which may or may not prove to be a smart move depending on whether another battery technology is right around the corner that could replace Li Ion.
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+18
Jan 26th, 2010 (12:46 am)“opening a mass production high volume electric motor plant at a yet-to-be announced location.”
USA! USA! USA!
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+18
Jan 26th, 2010 (1:00 am)This is a big step. Most major corporations would have a tough time making so many commitments to an unproven market.
It shows that GM is committed to revolutionizing the personal transportation industry as a pioneer.
Who would have put those two words together 5 years ago?
GM/Pioneer
Truly, we are seeing the sprouting of a “New GM”.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (1:15 am)“which eliminated the need for a hand crank” my oh my, how I miss the hand crank on a cold and frosty morn. Trying to turn a hand crank when the oil was thick as axle grease. Sometimes when the motor caught and the crank would buck taking your hand with it. You had to be tough to survive in those days.
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+9
Jan 26th, 2010 (1:32 am)I have to agree… GM putting $246 million into electric motor production seems a fairly clear statement that GM believes electric propulsion is the future!
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+4
Jan 26th, 2010 (2:04 am)From what I see there’s already been some decent R&D in GM’s current electric motor program for the 2-Mode hybrids. (and in part initiated by Allison Trans in the form of the transit bus hybrid EP40 transmission)
These things have IMO very decent energy density at 60kW (~80HP) as they are each (the 2-Mode trans uses a pair of them) only about the size of a 2 gal pail and weigh in at about 80lbs. Another noticeable feature is the use of extruded “square” 5N pure copper armature windings that are used to eliminate air-gaps within the winding to further improve magnetic/energy density.
Likely the next major breakthrough to exist will be in the permanent magnet materials used in the rotor. GM once owned a company/technology called “magnaquench” (eventually sold and relocated to China I think) that was able to create very high density man-made magnets, that are the primary reason why a 12V starter motor is now the size of a beer-can (as compared to football size in the early 80s)
JMO
WOT
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+11
Jan 26th, 2010 (2:10 am)Hmmm… once again I wonder where the vaporware trolls have gone off to
To be honest, I am shocked at the profusion of signs of GM’s high level of commitment to electrification. I would consider myself a guarded optimist concerning electric vehicles but I would never have predicted that GM would become so bullish about their future. In ‘07 they readily admit they were only building a science project, but in a few short years they are building a whole new infrastructure. They must really realize they have winner on their hands…maybe they have a big surprise in store for gen II Voltec technology?
This is very encouraging, and I’m not generally one to rhapsodize about GM.
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+12
Jan 26th, 2010 (2:35 am)The Volt is the GM dealers dream. Ever see an efficient car with so much to give? Range (9), power (8), luxury interior (8), handling/braking (9), styling (8), 100+ mpg (10), expected maintenance (9), GPS/OnStar/iTouch features(10).
With the buying incentive of a $7500+ tax credit.
=D~
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Jan 26th, 2010 (2:47 am)And it begins………….(YES!)
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+10
Jan 26th, 2010 (3:00 am)Good news for the electrification of cars in the US.
The reason GM is doing this is (probably) because there is no supply chain for these components.. and whatever is available is custom made and very expensive. One of the disadvantages of being a pioneer in the field.
It is nearly impossible to improve existing motor technology, it is a very mature field and present large motors operate at 96% efficiency. I think what GM is trying to do is to lower the cost of these components.
The other critical items are the inverters used to control these motors and the cells.
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-47
Jan 26th, 2010 (3:23 am)(click to show comment)
+4
Jan 26th, 2010 (4:08 am)Yes cost and control would appear to be the most important motivating factors. They can also more easily and cheaply implement secret sauce advances. Just look at what Tesla did to their motor to tweak performance and efficiency to meet their goals. If Lutz’s mythical “transmission” is in the motor design then they have already done some of these same things.
This is one of those undeniable signs that GM is truely committed to the electrification of the automobile. This is more heartening to me than 50 announcements of commitment by the CEO.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (5:49 am)GM said it will dual source its motors while it enters the field and learns. Certainly they want to transfer the technology in house.
I was thinking about the other electrified car recently shown. I am talking about the Cadillac XTS PHEV. It is scheduled for release in 2012, a year before the GM second generation dual-mode with GM motors is available. I guess the FWD/AWD version will use vendor electric motors.
Or perhaps they will dual source motors, for the second generation dual mode automatics for the two versions FWD and RWD.
(Wow talk about lots of two!)
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (6:02 am)Electric motors are generally very very efficient (roughly 90% compared to 25-35%) for an ICE as there’s very little waste noise, heat and movement (pistons and things). They’re also very small, Tesla’s boasts their engine 100s HP is the size of a watermelon… so I don’t think much improvement can be had from the motor – still good to hear they’re making this commitment – there seems to be a new headline each day!
Anyway – if I were GM i’d concentrate on getting the battery costs down… but I can see the number crunchers looking 5 years into the future and the batteries costing 1/3rd what they do now… and them rubbing their hands together. Besides if they do full mass production, eg. 500,000 units a year instead of 20,000 then the fixed costs (factory, research) get spread over more units and the cost per unit comes down that way too. Hence profitability next year… I anticipate the GM Volt will sell for up to 1.5x the list value as soon as it launches as the waiting list will rise like a rocket! Remember the stories about the 2nd hand Prius being $2000 more than a new one because of the demand a few years back?
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:12 am)You guys are always talking about batteries.
Wait. EEstor is just around the corner.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:35 am)GM is making the right strategic decisions. They will create a lot of jobs and have control of the key components (electric engines, battery packs, control mechanisms, software) without tying themselves to state of the art batteries. The next 20 years could see several lead changes in battery chemistries, so GM is right in concentrating on everything else.
I wish they would move faster, but they are still ahead of everyone else so I guess thats as fast as they need to move.
At this rate they are more than 5 years away from being able to have a product line that all their cars EV/EREV. I feel this is too conservative as battery costs are likely to reach mainstream affordability before GM has the production capacity to make all their cars EV/EREVs.
I want off of imported oil in 5 years, not 10 years.
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+11
Jan 26th, 2010 (7:39 am)As much as I wish GM would move faster, they are the only ones really doing anything significant about imported oil.
I don’t see us doing all we can to drill more domestically (Alska, the Gulf). I don’t see us building more nuclear plants or ramping up renewables very fast. There is the bill to help use natural gas in transportation which I’m a bit leery about. I want it for big trucks but not for cars. Cars can go electric. I don’t want to ramp up demand for natural gas so much that at some point we face shortages there, because so many homes depend on natural gas for affordable heating.
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+4
Jan 26th, 2010 (7:41 am)Godot? Godot? Are you there?
Nothing like good theater, even it’s of the Theatre of the Absurd variety.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:43 am)This move opens up many possibilities. It might be a fit for GM’S IN-WHEEL MOTOR DEVELOPMENT program that got started in the very early 1990s,
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:48 am)GCUAPO!
Now if we could have a story about GM “throwing its hat over the fence” and announcing they will start manufacturing the Voltec 53 kw Generator as a core competency.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (7:49 am)Michelin and Raser Technologies are well positioned with their in-wheel motor tech, so GM should look into licensing their tech, then cost reducing it.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:56 am)Seems like paragraphs one and two completely disagree with each other
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Jan 26th, 2010 (8:01 am)I have been giving some thought to Tag’s oft mentioned independence day release date.
Given the stage of the build cycle, I think, well, it is more of a hope really, lol, that GM will announce the dealer list for sales to the public, along with demo Volts for the dealers to begin the education process This would give maximum bang for the limited buck, and even more limited Volt’s, and help provide hard evidence as to actual demand out there. And most importantly, with the sales staff taking them home each night, upskills them as to the REvolution that is to come.
Oh yeah, give Lyle one as well, so he can upskill us, the loyal bloggers. OK this is a shameless attempt to remind GM to look after the man responsible for wasting so much of my time over the past two point something years.
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+7
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:01 am)My only question:
If GM is this sure that electrification of transportation is the right way to go, and if they have tested the Volt the way they say they have, then why only make 10K Volts for all of the first year model run?
Come on GM – Take the bull by the horns and go for it! Put the Volt assembly plant into full production and get as many of these cars out on the road as possible to show the world you believe in what you are doing!!! You can own this market………..
JMHO
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:07 am)Awesome news IMO. I can definitely see a cost savings benefit to making these motors in house.
As recent as just yesterday, wasn’t there a lot of talk that Ed Whitacre will kill the Volt program, you know being that he is associated with Exxon, blah blah blah? If it is his intention, they sure are working on one honking big hoax here.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (8:12 am)Great idea. +1. As for wasting time, yes it’s a good time waster, but one which is sometimes enlightening and almost always harmless.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (8:15 am)Why is the two-mode transmission GM’s priority?
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+8
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:16 am)I think this is a critical move for GM. From a design, manufacture, and intellectual property (IP) perspective, they are probably best to bring this technology in house.
I’m not a motor expert, but when specifying large motors, they usually come in several “frame” sizes (horizontal mount, vertical mount, etc.) for a given horsepower. Then you need to consider service: will it be in a clean environment, where you can specify ODP (Open, Drip Proof) or in a more harsh environment where it is dusty with airborne chemicals, in which case you might specify TEFC (Totally Enclosed, Fan Cooled). There are other options that also need to be considered.
My point here is that the electric motor manufacturers make a standard product line. Usually the larger motors have a cast housing with integral exterior fins for cooling. The stator is built into this housing. They are designed to run at standard speeds (1800 rpm, 3600 rpm, 1200 rpm, etc.) and at standard voltages (120 VAC, 240 VAC, 480 VAC 3-phase, etc.).
For GM’s applications, the motors are likely very specialized. They need to run on variable frequency AC, must be packaged into a small compact space, must fit into a transmission housing and be cooled by an active means (transmission fluid?) and must act as a generator as well as a motor. These are not mass produced, off-the-shelf items, but purposely built motors that have no other application than into a GM vehicle.
For standard items like everyday fasteners, GM can have 2 or 3 vendors compete to supply these items. There is no IP associated with these parts.
However, as GM puts 1000’s and even millions of miles on EV’s, they learn certain aspects of batteries, motors, and control electronics that make them more efficient, more reliable, more cost effective. Some of these aspects are not currently known to the outside world, and GM will want to keep these secrets internal. Thus I see the move to manufacture motors one of protecting IP as well as one of lowering cost.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (8:29 am)Sorry if this was previously addressed but ya gotta wonder why this article didn’t mention the volt.
GM really needs to begin aggressively advertising the Volt
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GM-to-make-its-own-electric-apf-165178245.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=5&asset=&ccode=
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-5
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:33 am)Didnt GM lose its electric motor expert Alan cocconi when they “KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR”
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Jan 26th, 2010 (8:34 am)We’re just waiting…….. for Godot!!!
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:38 am)Here is an article on the Leaf, with some references to the Volt.
The article ponders whether the Leaf is taking shortcuts in order to get to market, and discusses battery pack design, thermal management, and “real life” mileage expectations with Leaf, since its 100 mile range is based on a light duty urban cycle.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/#ixzz0dfj23uOe
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+4
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:40 am)Excellent news and just the latest proof that the new GM is serious about electric. IMHO, the effort this company is putting behind the VOLT and other EV projects (like battery and electric motor production and core competency) show the leadership has a long-term perspective on this effort.
This is American Ingenuity at its best – and even better we are creating real, long-term US jobs.
In the past, GM has frequently been handicapped on production of leading edge technology as their ‘just-in-time’ manufacturing left them vunerable to the capacity limits of any individual supplier. So the more key components GM can bring in-house and control quality, cost, and availability, the quicker they can respond to the market and sieze opportunity. And again, IMHO, the opportunity with VOLT and other EREV products will be HUGE!!!
Go GM. Go VOLT. Bring it on!!!
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:44 am)I wonder if the next step is to build their own power electronics? Does Delco still belong to GM?
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+3
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:47 am)Seeing the photo of the electric motor makes me think of the utter simplicity and elegance of this technology. In comparing the complexity and the costs we have spent on the combustion engine for all these years, all I can say is what were we thinking! Glad to see this day and that GM is leading the way.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:51 am)hi BillR 33 …
This text is taken from the Nissan report:
“The Nissan Leaf has a passively cooled 24-kilowatt-hour battery pack located under the floorboard…”
Passive cooling for the battery? This is a surprise.
=D~
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+3
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:55 am)Michelin and Raser Technologies are indeed well positioned with their in-wheel technology. But, they are just two among a cast of many working on this technology. GM has its program, as does Ford, Volvo, Honda, Toyota and a host of others.
IMO, it is just a matter of time before GM introduces in-wheel motors in a future generation of the Volt, the Converj, a pickup truck or whatever. Connecting the dots, GM’s plan to design and manufacture electric motors is a move towards future products that will include in-wheel motors.
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-4
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:57 am)$246 million is pocket change to a company that went through $70 billion in taxpayer dollars in less than twelve months. Can GM make motors that are better and less expensive than those made elsewhere?
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+4
Jan 26th, 2010 (9:00 am)GM has a lot of experience with electric motors and controll devices.
They have been using them in trains for years.
Take Care
Arch
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Jan 26th, 2010 (9:02 am)Not exactly. Electric motor has 70-80% efficiency in ineffective modes (just like ICE) – when it is started.
(1% losses – energy required to run cryogenic unit cooling superconductors with liquid N2 – for modern superconductors temperature of 150 K is required).
But, there is a way to increase efficiency of electric motor to 99% in ALL operational modes. Use superconducting wires
Size of superconducting electric motor is also smaller (if I remember correctly, about 2 times) then regular motor of the same power.
I drived car running on natural gas. Almost no difference (If don’t count that natural gas costs two times less).
Conversion of regular gasoline car to natural gas powered cost me about 700$-1000$ (cost of $ is different and depends on date). In fact, “conversion” is just installing extra module in the car engine. This module somehow prepares natural gas to be burned in standard ICE-engine.
Disadvantages of natural gas is: 1) car is more likely to explode in crash (because gas is more explosive than gasoline); 2) when engine started, not burned natural gas leaving engine (ICE efficiency in start mode is less than 10%) damages the tailpipe (people says that they have to replace tailpipe every half year) – but this can be avoided if using gasoline for start.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (9:02 am)Good article.
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+3
Jan 26th, 2010 (9:02 am)Arch, correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t GE dominant in the locomotive market?
Respectfully,
Dr. Ibringdoh
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Jan 26th, 2010 (9:05 am)Interesting that the Leaf will be in the Phoenix market where the Heat will destory their battery. I really have to think their strategy is to get market share, lease the battery and take a loss on that knowing in 3 years they’ll be able to replace the battery with superior technology.
So I think thats Nissan’s gamble, get market share and hope on radical battery improvements. But if they have to replace batteries with 40,000 miles on them, and the batteries aren’t much cheaper and better, they will be in trouble.
Can anyone tell from the Nissan info if their battery pack is designed to A) easily be replaced B) Support a replacement battery with same shape but different characteristics, like active HVAC if future battery cells take less space??
Or maybe their theory is batteries will be cheap enough soon to replace every 50,000 miles rather than invest in battery conditioning? If you lease the battery, it doesn’t matter how long they last to the customer.
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+7
Jan 26th, 2010 (9:07 am)“Vice Chairman Tom Stephens is announcing today that GM is expanding its in-house core competency to include the design and manufacture of electric motors. This will make the company the first major US automaker to mass produce its own electric motors.”
I’m pleased to learn this. And I believe a major factor in this decision is automation —just as for battery and engine manufacturing— which is critical to maintaining quality while reducing cost. The cost to develop the computer-controlled forming, machining, coil winding, assembly & testing equipment needed to minimize labor content and achieve high quality is high, however. But these development costs are easily justified when large numbers of motors will be made.
And GM has considerable expertise in automating the manufacture of engines (and now in automating battery assembly & testing) ….this experience can be leveraged in developing highly-automated, high-volume assembly lines for electric motors. Hence cost reduction will be the huge payoff, just as it is with engine & battery manufacturing.
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+2
Jan 26th, 2010 (9:08 am)Great idea! The dealer demo fleet would remove the last hurdle to the “I have to drive it before I buy it” crowd, and get those deposits rolling in. I’d hope that the wait for the initial customer Volts wouldn’t be too far behind that point as well.
Ditto Lyle’s demo Volt! We’d actually get past the speculation stage we’ve been in (by necessity) for the last few years.
Exciting times – Independence Day isn’t too far off! Who knows, maybe a modest *customer* demo fleet could launch about the same time to gather the final pre-production polishing data!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Jan 26th, 2010 (9:10 am)****No possible improvement to electric motors????***
**OF COURSE YOU CAN VASTLY IMPROVE ELECTRIC MOTORS, GUYS & GALS!!!!!**
The money is now pouring into electric motor research, and, will continue to do so for many many huge advancements even faster than battery advancement technologies, with those GM engineers who “think out of the box”!!!
Spit rotor design was discussed toward the end of the last electric motor thread right on this site a few threads back, which possibly most had not seen.
Just as I saw that picture of that motor above, here is another suggestion for GM (suggestion to be solely owned by GM if not previously patented elsewhere).
Have a high performance motor design with **three** different rotor diameters in stages of diminished diameter for torque efficiency values relating to the magnetic distance timing densities.
A smaller diameter rotor on either side of that large diameter single rotor as pictured above. (A nine phase motor array). Among other things, you would save design space and get three motors in one housing.
Of course you can design all different kinds of electric motors for all different kinds of purposes, if the research funding is in place for the engineers to be able the “think out of the box”, which is what investment promotes. (Keep a shrewd eye on the price of New GM stock, I’d say).
(off to work. still very backlogged. have a great day everyone!!)
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Jan 26th, 2010 (9:14 am)And waiting, and waiting, and waiting (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+4
Jan 26th, 2010 (9:18 am)PS to my #45 above: The very low labor rates in China & India also makes highly-automated manufacturing the key to keeping this work in the USA.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (9:18 am)Remember the Killacycle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDHJNG2PngQ
=D~
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Jan 26th, 2010 (9:27 am)Post script to my suggestion above.
The smaller diameter rotors might be more efficient for higher speed “cruise” low and moderate torque demands once intertia for achieving cruise speed has been satisfied.
(Other things ought to come to light as well).
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Jan 26th, 2010 (9:32 am)Yes it is very cheap now, but if we converted majority of cars to natural gas, and trucks, and generated electricity and use for home heating, well isn’t that sort of an obvious problem we’d be setting ourselves up for. That is not energy diversity.
Thats the beauty of EVs, doesn’t matter where the electricity comes from. Coal, NG, Nuclear, Wind, Solar, GEO, Hyrdro.
I don’t want to be dependent on NG for so many different engergy needs and then be faced with the eventually supply/demand dilema.
Haven’t we learned out lessons. Electricity is what we should use for personal transportation and as much home energy needs as possible. The Electricity can be generated by many different sources by the utility or the homeowner himself.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (9:37 am)I think everyone is too quick to dismiss the importance of electric motor research and design. Take a good look at the picture of the motor Lyle posted boys and girls. That didn’t come off of your table saw or washing machine!
Seriously though, like a lot of things the basics are simple and because we have had electric motors surrounding us for our entire lives we think we know and understand them. There is a lot more tech going into these motors than meets the eye. It is not just in cost reduction but also efficiency in both torque generating (traction) and current generating (regen) modes. There is cores design – shape – both in 2d and 3d, thickness, material, insulation. Windings – again shape, size, material, multiple windings in the same motor. Cooling of the motor, packaging of the motor. Because these motors operate at different speeds and even different functions there can be hybrid designs where parts of the motor are optimized for a particular speed or function and other parts for other speeds/functions. Now this is all just off the top of my head from a guy who knows nothing about motor design. Imagine the laughter from an engineer who actually designs these motors reading this post!
The point is there is a lot more motor design left to do when applying them to the function of moving cars and stopping them. If one pulls an extra .1% efficiency out of an electric motor that runs of the grid it better not cost much because electricity is relatively cheap. Do the same thing in a motor that is mobile and runs off batteries and it is a more significant achievement and is worth more $$.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (9:48 am)GM already has expertize with motors (Delco Motors) so it becomes even more enticing to do so.
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+7
Jan 26th, 2010 (9:58 am)Toyota has obviously cut off their minimum wage.
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+4
Jan 26th, 2010 (10:04 am)I hope one of the reason GM is so bullish with the electrification of automobiles is that the Volt has gotten real good mileage in the ICE mode!!
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-5
Jan 26th, 2010 (10:07 am)Owned by the government, manufactures motors, I propose a new company name, “DC Motors”
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Jan 26th, 2010 (10:13 am)They should call the new electric motor manufacturing unit “Electromotive”. I ‘d love to see the name of GM’s old Railroad Locamotive Division brought back to life for these new products.
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+4
Jan 26th, 2010 (10:20 am)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jHFT1X1JDI&feature=player_embedded
Take Care
Arch
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (10:22 am)That’s already taken:
http://www.dcmotorsinc.com/index.php
What kind of professor doesn’t bother to do any research?
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Jan 26th, 2010 (10:24 am)The two mode transmission has many great potentials not yet implemented. It is basically a CVT with four different ranges. With big enough electric motors built into it, it could power the vehicle with no assist from the ICE making it also EREV. And, on heavy loads like a truck hauling a large boat and trailer, the ICE would take over.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (10:27 am)Because the 2 mode system is a great system that costs too much for consumers to adopt it. Lowering the cost could get more people to opt for it. Trucks are still their bread and butter and they represent the area where the highest fuel savings can be achieved. As we have seen, the Volt “transmission” shares much of it’s architecture with the 2 mode transmission, so I suspect these new motors will also find their way to Gen 2 Volt.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (10:43 am)From what it cost to replace at the parts dept, the cost of the 2-mode transmission is about similar to a 6 speed auto transmission.. but then you have the batteries and inverter to pay for.. probably around $4000 for the hybrid 2-mode premium.
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+3
Jan 26th, 2010 (10:43 am)More good news. Things are rolling along pretty well now.
Be nice if there was some kind of program (like the hydrogen cars) so that some of us could get early models.
Either way. Volt in some form or another looks like a good replacement vehicle around my homestead.
Saw an ‘electric truck’ commercial (2-mode hybrid) by Chevy. They are talking up electric drive even if it’s not really ready yet.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (10:56 am)The kind that didn’t graduate.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (11:15 am)That’s a big LOL.
Even so truth be told I wish it where true
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+3
Jan 26th, 2010 (11:37 am)This is really good news on a number of fronts. If GM wants to become a leader in the electric car space, they need to build their own motors. Or, at least, have the capacity for doing so.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (11:48 am)Amen! +1
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (11:50 am)#3
Yeah man! +1 Best news I’ve heard today.
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+2
Jan 26th, 2010 (11:51 am)Gotta love where Lyle says “Make no mistake about it, this time the electric car is here to stay”. The train has definitely left the station and it’s picking up more and more momentum every day. There’s no stopping it this time.
The technology to make it work is “in the here and NOW”. EREV technology may be kind of expensive for some people, but it’s destined to get much cheaper in the next 5 years or so. Just the way HDTVs were when they first came out.
The days of wondering when “some day” will arrive are over. The “cars of the future” really are just over the horizon. I’ve been saving my money every month to get me a Volt in order to keep my finance charges lower. Hopefully, I won’t have to finance very much of my Volt purchase at all. I want to be one of the first people to get one. I’ll end up being a Volt salesman probably though. I’m sure everyone will want to test drive it and ask me dozens of questions. I’ll be happy to do it though. I think GM is going to do a fantastic job with the Volt.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (11:56 am)#16
LOL +1
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (12:09 pm)#56
God send that it shall be true! +1
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Jan 26th, 2010 (12:11 pm)#55
I dunno, take look at #57. Toyota has plenty of FUD money available, don’t you worry, LOL. Maybe you woke them up. PDNFTT, hahaha. Actually, they’re kinda fun, if you can keep them in perspective. Plus, it’s probably a compliment to the blog that they feel like they have to FUD us.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (12:11 pm)Once you are a Volt owner, please don’t forget us less fortunate folks back here at gm-volt.com! I’m sure we’ll be hungry for news on its real-world performance and your experiences!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (12:17 pm)#59
King Of The Links! Bring it on. +1
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+2
Jan 26th, 2010 (12:22 pm)I’ll bet it has something to do with TRUCKS.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (12:24 pm)#62
I think that it’s partly that, and partly their weird marketing strategy. The only way you can get one is on a fully loaded up pickup or Yukon/Tahoe/Escalade at prices in the what, $46K/$72/K range? As many have suggested, if they spread the availability out across more of a “work truck” range, it would seem that they would sell a few more. I bet that lots of businesses would like to save some gas. I know I would. But a 4 door, short bed, leather seat, $46K pickup just doesn’t do us any good. If they took a base truck and offered an option of adding the 2 mode for what, $3-4K, that might work.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (12:36 pm)Yep, just tap your heels together three times and take a left at the second star….
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Jan 26th, 2010 (12:36 pm)Maybe not, but there is probably some synergy. Note that their first effort is NOT in primary traction motors, but in motors buried inside a transmission. Even if you can buy a superior motor from a third party, getting it integrated inside the two-mode transmission is not natural. But if you can design and build it integrally then you have something. I recall also a GM motor oil expert engineer describing how it was necessary to use oil for a totally different application and how the junior engineers had a tough time of it — maybe it was a cooling application?
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Jan 26th, 2010 (12:40 pm)Agree totally. The 2-mode could be sold in higher numbers if they packaged it differently, i.e. offering it as an option in all of the configuartions vs. just a high priced/up market package. You’d think they could find someplace to put that battery in a work truck. For all we know, perhaps their plans are just as you outlined for gen. 2 of the 2-mode. They better come up with a better idea than the current situation, or forget it altogether. A few thousand sales a year isn’t gonna cut it.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (12:42 pm)Based on their agreement/partnership with betterplace one would have to think it is designed for very easy replacement – that is how you get a charge, by swapping the battery at a filling station.
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-1
Jan 26th, 2010 (12:49 pm)Why are they prioritizing something that doesn’t SELL?
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Jan 26th, 2010 (12:53 pm)The “weird marketing strategy” is a function of the cost problem. The GMT900 two-modes are extremely expensive to build. They are, essentially, throwing in the options for free.
It’s obvious that the benefit of the 2-mode transmission, if any, would be realized by cost-sensitive fleet operators who want low-price trucks. GM doesn’t market the vehicle to them because it’s not possible to package it as a $5K option that will actually save a fleet operator money.
GM has been offering it for just about two years, now, and it’s still only available on top-line trims. It’s not a profitable program and it’s not cost-efffective now or in any near-term.
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+2
Jan 26th, 2010 (1:04 pm)But if they find a way to make it cheaper, it could be huge. Why not invest in trying to bring the costs down?
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (1:07 pm)Says WHO?
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+3
Jan 26th, 2010 (1:11 pm)In total agreement!
The US and Canada run on trucks.
There are those here who think that only small battery only cars should be built but that is simply not realistic.
Getting the cost down on the light truck 2-mode system could open the door to making all the GM light trucks 2-mode.
This one move could save more fuel in one year than the Prius has in it’s entire run. People NEED trucks to do their work, cost redusing 2-mode will put GM in the ‘drivers seat’.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (1:12 pm)Good news here, and it further demonstrates GM’s committment to the electrification of its automobiles.
Regardless of who builds the motors, I would like to see future improvements in the efficiencies of GM’s electric motors. For example, I would like to see GM incorporate (California start-up) NovaTorque’s revolutionary new electric motor design, which improves on the efficiency of current electric motors by up to 40%, with accompnaying huge reductions in motor size, weight, and cost (see http://www.novatorque.com for more details). I would also like to see GM experiment with mounting 4 small electric motors directly to the wheel hubs in order to improve the Volt’s efficiency and reduce its weight and costs.
Many engineering breakthroughs will come of course, and GM’s team should be commended on a job well done.
Best regards, George, Sudbury, Ont., Canada… P.S. Go Volt
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+3
Jan 26th, 2010 (1:28 pm)Sorry EVO, that was only intended as a perhaps not so clever joke. Honest, I wasn’t actually serious!
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+2
Jan 26th, 2010 (1:46 pm)-6 on the voting???
Wow what a serious crowd here this morning…
I think that is a funny line!
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (1:50 pm)Lowering motor size and weight and even cost may squeeze out some marginal benefits. Improving a 96% efficient process is likely beating a dead horse. Batteries remain the key bottleneck just as they were when Edison tried to have batteries that Henry Ford could use with propulsion motors a hundred years ago.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (1:52 pm)You seem real big on hub motors these days. How does the unsprung weight affect handling for performance applications?
Or are you just keening for the relaunch of the Porsche Mixte?
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Jan 26th, 2010 (1:55 pm)#86
Well it just makes sense, as I stole the idea from you in the first place, LOL. Credit where credit is due. +1 I remembered that someone had brought this up several times, but I was too lazy to comb back through the threads to figure out who.
I also think that there are plenty of patriotic business owners out there who would subscribe to some or all of the sort of “non-monetary” benefits which we often discuss regarding the Volt. National security, oil independence, and even, dare I say it, air quality, just for a start.
And, it would be really smart to create tax incentives for such vehicles, precisely because of the large possible fuel savings you mention. Maybe GM could make them plug-in and take advantage of the existing credits, come to that.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (2:03 pm)Off topic. This just in, GM just sold Saab to Spyker.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100126/ap_on_bi_ge/gm_saab;_ylt=ApHRLoZzScfJhxb3lrtUIGus0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTFiaTN0dWhhBHBvcwM1MgRzZWMDYWNjb3JkaW9uX3dvcmxkBHNsawNnbXRvc2VsbHNhYWI-
Spyker is cool, but I think I’m sorry Koenigsegg didn’t get Saab. They had some really cool electric vehicle plans for which they wanted Saab manufacturing. I’m not sure what plans Spyker has, I think it’s just to grow bigger at this point but I am not sure anybody knows for sure.
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+2
Jan 26th, 2010 (2:07 pm)Thanks MuddyRoverRob, I guess I should flash my joke sign when I throw out a quip like that. I was even awarded troll status for it…sigh!
So, to comment on the topic of the day, I think this is a good move on GMs part. It shows serious commitment to electric vehicles in the long term and as long as the motors they produce reach the same level of quality/efficiency as they could otherwise get from other suppliers, it should reduce costs as well.
Not to mention it keeps that part of the manufacturing in the USA–that is a good thing!
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-4
Jan 26th, 2010 (2:14 pm)GM doesn’t need to reduce the costs of that which does not sell, GM must increase profitability. This involves a focus on things which do sell – or could.
What do you suppose the maximum possible cost savings from developing their own internal motor could possibly be, for the unit as a whole? As much as 10% of the cost of the transmission? What’s that against the cost of the whole package? 1%? Will that entice people to buy the thing?
That mediocre gain can’t offset the whole boatload of cash to do the development.
My original question goes to, why enhance the two-mode hybrid? The Volt project, being more fundamentally dependent on electric motor and generator technology and they are likely a larger fraction of vehicle cost, would certain benefit more from enhancements in that direction. Why not address the Volt FIRST?
Now, if GM is rational the answer is, as unlikely as it is to reap a profit from investing in the 2-mode hybrid transmission, GM must feel it’s LESS likely to reap a profit from investing in a better Volt. Why is that?
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Jan 26th, 2010 (2:14 pm)TEST….
Hmmm, my post got removed.
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+2
Jan 26th, 2010 (2:18 pm)lol…..
OK my post kept getting killed when I put who I think is the current builder of the AC Ind motor, I may be on to something…..lol
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Jan 26th, 2010 (2:19 pm)The HSD is more efficient than Voltec because it can act as both series and parallel config on required times . So it needs only software modification for a PHEV mode. 2 Mode is the stuff from GM which does similar stuff. So 2 mode is better than voltec is properly configured by software. Only down side of it is the cost. Now they have to iron out and make low cost 2 mode ( or expand the modes to 4 mode ) and reduce the costs and configure for PHEV which makes more sense till we are ready to throw away ICE and move to Battery/ Fuel cell models – Voltec is good at Battery/Fuel cell models but we have to reach there. I wonder How big sense a hybrid equinox or a traverse or enclave makes ( every body doesn’t like to drive cars )
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (2:23 pm)As someone who has gotten major negatives for making straight talk, I just gave the Professor a +1 on the quip for the brilliant insight into the general area in the US where the motors will be made.
This is a good PR move, too. After all, the company is named General Motors, not General Engines. For the first time in a while, the very company name won’t be a lie.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (2:30 pm)Says GM. Of course, you have to waterboard Docherty to get her to admit what hybrid sales are (or even that the program exists). GM, in spite of having had up to 9 models of “hybrids” on the market this year, is #4 in hybrid sales in the US and basically nonexistent in the rest of the world. In 2009, they sold perhaps half of what Honda or Ford sold. While Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Ford all saw hybrid sales increase (some dramatically) in December, GM hybrid sales declined.
The Fusion, too, is taking off. In 2010, Ford is likely to beat Honda by a wide margin and, with the elimination of the BAS hybrids, will likely beat GM silly in hybrid sales.
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+2
Jan 26th, 2010 (2:30 pm)If GE bought GM then the VOLT could be made by a company called General Electric Motors.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (2:30 pm)The article that I read on CNN said the motors will be built for the next generation of the Chevy Tahoe…is GM planning on a plug in Hybrid Tahoe yet?
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+3
Jan 26th, 2010 (2:31 pm)Yeah!
I wanna pickemup truck! You tellem Unni!
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+3
Jan 26th, 2010 (2:46 pm)First of all, you don’t know that it will only reduce the costs by 10%. Right now maybe it will. But if they invest in new technology and mass production, maybe they will reduce the cost by 30% or even 50%. And, other components probably offer additional opportunities for reduced costs. And if they reduce the end price by a couple thousand dollars, I think that would make a significant difference in demand.
As far as what they’re going to invest in first–this might just be in a different stage of development. Or they might be tackling the simpler project first. Or they might want to diversify their bets. And this will be cross applicable.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (2:49 pm)The problem with the 2-mode truck sales is cost.
Therefore spending time cost reducing the 2-mode system is money well spent. The battery research for the Volt project should carry over easily into a smaller say 8 kwh 2-mode pack that would hang under the body between the frame rails of a 2-mode powered truck. Personally I need at least 5000 lb towing ability, a 2-mode Tahoe or Silverado could be that truck. Just make it affordable!
As much as it pains me to agree with Dagwood55 I think he’s right about the BAS systems…
I take nothing away from Ford, it seems they have a winner!
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Jan 26th, 2010 (2:51 pm)That’s EEstor’s title!!!
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (2:53 pm)Going “green” is great advertising if you’re trying to appeal to the general public. At least in New York. There are “greener” dry cleaners and shops and restaurants everywhere. That alone should be able to sell a considerable number of hybrid trucks.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (3:09 pm)There are many ways to save costs by making their own motors, not the least of which is producing it a short distance from assembly lines. Now that Labor costs in the North have been reduced, it makes sense to bring back manufacturing. Also as they design motors for different tasks, quicker to market.
More jobs for USA!! Make all the components right here in USA. As said above, if you highly mechanize it, then the cheap overseas Labor costs can be mostly offset by the savings in transport.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (3:09 pm)When talking about the general public you are right on the money.
However, the biggest truck market is the commercial sector.
What the business owners need to see is a business case for the ‘hybrid’ costs. If they can see a tangible savings of say $300 a month in fuel (they are on the go all the time) then a $5000 hit on a 3 year lease is an easy decision. (36 months x ~$300 = ~$10800) over the life of the lease.
It’s a much harder sell at $5000 to an individual for a personal use vehicle, unless they drive a LOT.
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+2
Jan 26th, 2010 (3:15 pm)The day we’re off foreign oil is the day America starts to retake the helm of human destiny. Right now, that prize appears to be going to the communist, anti-democratic, anti-bill of rights nation of China and the Oil Barons who despise democracy as equally as China.
Subsidize these cars.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (3:19 pm)LOL! Good one friend. +1 to you.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (3:21 pm)But couldn’t the business owners also consider it an advertising cost? A “greener” restaurant could list using a hybrid truck to deliver their food as one of the ways their greener. A dry cleaner could list it as one of the ways their a “greener cleaner.” Etc.
Even a construction company could advertise to potential home owners that they take steps to reduce their carbon footprint. They advertise using environmentally friendly building materials. Why not environmentally friendly methods of transportation?
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Jan 26th, 2010 (3:22 pm)The 2 Gen Two mode hybrid system will put on there sedan’s.
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+2
Jan 26th, 2010 (3:27 pm)Developing production traction motors goes with its in-house battery production. GM will be the first US major to do EV motors in-house. And, most importantly getting it done here in US. Its very nice to see for a change, new jobs opening up. As we all know (from painful plant closures), each plant develops its own culture of lower tier support—a further plus.
GM’s main concern as expected is China’s lowering earlier this month its exporting of several REE’s (which includes neodymium). China does 97% of all REE world-wide production. GM has good reason to be concerned. REE’s are used in both certain battery chemistry and traction motors. Noteworthy is GM forecast for 7 digit 2010 sales in China. (REE: Rare-earth element.)
Also noteworthy is since day one (c.1910) GM (and Delco now Delphi) pioneered just about every major electrical support component in the passenger (such as headlights, radio and heater) and engine compartments.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (3:34 pm)#107
Damn right! +1
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (3:36 pm)#110
Damn right! My finger is getting sore from punching out so many “+1s” today, LOL. Looking good bloggers.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (3:38 pm)True enough!
But unless there is a good business case they will only have a few in ‘visible’ positions because of the cost… Likely the business owner who doesn’t actually drive as much as the employee’s will have the ‘nice’ truck!
I don’t think you are wrong, but strong businesses tend to watch the pennies pretty closely and hard numbers will trump perception most of the time.
Green-cred is good, saving money is better.
Having both is GRAVY!
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (3:41 pm)I have just one thing to say about today’s article:
Big thumbs up to GM and Lyle!
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Jan 26th, 2010 (3:53 pm)You’re right, I don’t know how much it will reduce cost. But think about this… take the transmission apart. How many pieces have you got? Plenty. How many of those pieces are electric motors? Just two. What’s their current cost? Cut that by 10%. Now what’s the transmission cost? Pretty much the same, isn’t it? Now, what does that represent as a chunk of total vehicle cost? Not much.
The big benefit in 2-mode development either comes from a lot of incremental changes over a lengthy period of time (and time is something GM doesn’t have a lot of) or from some radical departure in how the thing is designed and built. Slightly less expensive motors are good. Only one motor instead of two is better. An overall 50% reduction in part count, using fewer expensive materials, larger tolerances and a simplified production process… huge. That’s the change that can make the 2-mode a commercial success.
You also remarked on advertising and the green image. There’s some benefit in that but probably not much.
My wife’s nephew’s company car is a Prius. They didn’t supply him with it for the green image, they supplied him with it because they believe it’s cheaper to run. The green image is a side benefit. If the GMT900 hybrids can’t operate cheaper, operators won’t want them.
On the other hand, these guys:
http://www.peacecoffee.com
are all over the green image. And it’s a bright green shade of green, too. Your coffee is either delivered by bicycle or biodiesel van. Fair trade, too.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (3:55 pm)How many Voltecs would sell if they were two end drive CUVs?
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Jan 26th, 2010 (4:17 pm)Maybe – just maybe – I’m selling GM a little short on this.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100126/OEM05/100129899/1186#
The motors won’t just cost less but they’ll have other extremely useful characteristics… they’ll be 25% smaller and 20% more output.
Of course, this deepens the mystery of why the Volt won’t be first to receive the new motors.
In a 3-ton vehicle, shrinking the two ~60kw motors in the transmission isn’t a terribly big deal. It’s good but the vehicle is so darned big, otherwise, that this is almost a “who’ll notice?”
In the Volt, the electric motor is a larger fraction of the vehicle’s weight and it’s the sole propulsion. The weight reduction is much more significant in the Volt and a 20% increase in power is a big deal, too (since there’s no V8 engine providing backup). And any improvement in efficiency goes straight to improved range.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (4:25 pm)Hopefully they will eventually gain enough expertise to develop something like that 70 lb motor in the Tesla Roadster. It is an awesome beast.
Toyota is supposed to have some killer A/C motors at their Japanese Lab Testing Center.
Looks like the race Back To Electric Cars (aka Back To The Future) is ON !
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+2
Jan 26th, 2010 (4:32 pm)Not really, at this point the Volt’s configuration will be frozen.
They are spooling up for production in just a few months, there will be no major changes to the Gen 1 Volt at this point.
Gen 2 will see the improved motors.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (4:40 pm)Dagwood, these particular motors are for a slightly smaller (yet nearly as powerful) RWD 2-mode transmission that are going into other platforms. i.e. Cadiallac XTS 2M PHEV
Of course there will be other (FWD or Gen II Volt?) opportunities for their usage.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (4:44 pm)You can see a few Vectras driving by while the commentator is driving this futuristic vehicle. I especially like the why you shift the steering column to charge from left right side driving. This shows that GM has been using the engineering of its foreign subsidiaries to maximum effect. Thanks for the link, Arch.
Regarding this article on GM building and designing motors makes sense; they will have to buy out some company to get the patients or develop new motors on their own.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (4:48 pm)Years ago, Westinghouse made Commercial Reactor Power plants and used a Control Rod Drive system that was simple and elegant. Another manufacturer sold one that was way more complex to avoid patent infringement. It cost more, and had less reliability. I think we are seeing a similar problem with Toyota’s (and Ford’s) HSD. Honda using a different system, which provides lower fuel economy, and GM uses still another system (the 2 Mode) which seems complex and does not deliver the improvement that the Toyota system delivers.
So….in the name of National security, I think the Feds should intervene and allow the best Hybrid system, whether Honda, or GM, or Nissan or Ford or Toyota to be used. Otherwise, GM seems to have a rough row to hoe.
Back in WWII, even though the B-17 was a protected Boeing design, the government said, Douglas, here is the B-17 design, build as many as you can. Ditto for Lockheed. Lets win the war for Oil Independence and stop funding those who would do us harm.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (5:00 pm)“Make no mistake about it, this time the electric car is here to stay.”
This is what I was waiting from GM !!! EV 1 is bad memory !
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-5
Jan 26th, 2010 (5:00 pm)Oh No! No! No! Y most GM now make electric motor? Y? He can buy faster from mother country, or cheap in China? This make more troubles for Boris and party. Please to not make GM good car company again. He is old and broken and not happy comrade. Why make motor in companys when nice commune work better?
Please America, stop to rebuild manufacture in USA. Not important. Please to send more job to nice motherland, Asia or Euros. America must not to make things, only to buy things! Please to have more fat and lazy.
To make things bad for Boris. Please to STOP madness GM! I not want a signment to Siberia again!
Мы павінны забіць лася і глупо бялку!
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Jan 26th, 2010 (5:01 pm)2nd gen Two mode hybrid system will be here next year.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (5:03 pm)Only one problem Van; the Federal government doesn’t own the patients of the foreign manufacturers and if GM’s design is better we don’t need intervention by the U.S. government.
By GM going into the engineering and design business of motors, they will be able to come up with new technology to imporve the electric motors in their vehicles.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again
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-2
Jan 26th, 2010 (5:06 pm)what about SRM, which might give other positive characteristics like easy design and high thermal overload?
May be Government Motors will investigate in marrying ICE with electric machines, otherwise they might not have enough expertise to invent something thrilling…
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Jan 26th, 2010 (5:26 pm)Good point. Most of the world uses feet, quadraped animals, bicycles, motorcycles, buses and trains for personal transportation.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (5:35 pm)You are very wrong about this. Only a few manufacturers make motors suitable for automotive use. Hyundai licensed motor design from Raser http://www.rasertech.com/ Tesla has designed their own as improved on AC Propulsion, Hi-Pa http://www.proteanelectric.com/ tm4 http://www.tm4.com/home.aspx and a few others manufacturer electric motors that produce 2hp/lb which about 4 times standard motors. It is not increased efficiency, but higher power/weight and size that is critical to electric cars.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (5:36 pm)George is right. You missed his point. The gain in efficiency as a factor isn’t as important as lowing the cost of this essential component of an EV.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (5:37 pm)Ya, I know, I forgot boats. My bad.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (5:45 pm)I wish the government would give up on old style nuclear reactors and embrace LFTRs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHdRJqi__Z8 LFTRs would burn our stockpile of radio-active waste and provide cheap safe nuclear power for a hundred thousand years.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (5:50 pm)Hi LRGVProvolt @ 130. Patent rights are enforced via the law, and if the Law is changed to block provincialism from retarding electrification they can do it. We may debate about which design is superior, GM’s or Ford’s but the design engineers know.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (5:57 pm)(Quote)
+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (6:13 pm)Perhaps…and you missed my point, I wrote there may be improvements w.r.t. weight, size and cost. Though gains in efficiency will be hard won and only infinitesimally as valuable as battery gains.
Many are not aware of the efficiency of electric motors and are under the impression that great gains can be reached by applying a little more technology.
Regarding weight and cost., and my positive comments aside, if an eighty pound, $400 dollar AC induction motor is reduced to 1 pound and 1 dollar, it won’t make a lot of difference for a $40,000 and 3500 pound car.
The real performance gains will be in the batteries; and controls which GM has never said will be given to outside suppliers.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (6:27 pm)I was in too much of a rush to get out to work this morning, so I didn’t do a good job of explaining my suggestion above.
All motors are rated for their efficiencies based on thier rated fixed speed and rated torque output. They are not as efficient on the way up to their rated speed, which relates to a timing of the magnetic attraction versus the distance of segment energizing.
Looking at the rotor and windings above, if you had a smaller set of those, and still another smaller set than the middle size, you would end up with what you might call a “Three Layer Wedding Cake” set of split rotors, each with its own torque rating for different speeds, since there would be slightly different peak magnetic distances for the smaller sizes (and fewer winding sets), there might be some torque and power usage advantanges in running these at concurrently different composite timed states, one, two, or all three at the same time or any combination of two.
I’ll bet that as more research money goes into electric motor designing, there will be some really incredible things that will be available in about 4 or 5 years. Pretty exciting stuff don’t you think?
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Jan 26th, 2010 (6:31 pm)Their 1hp motor weighs 17 lbs, vs Tesla’s 200hp motor weighs 70 lbs. Scale theirs up to 100 hp and it would weigh half the weight of the car!
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Jan 26th, 2010 (6:32 pm)#117
We have the name of our business, the phone #, and miscellaneous propaganda plastered all over our trucks with vinyl graphics. I don’t drive the “nicest” truck, but the smallest one with the best mpg. And I do commute 50 miles round trip on the crowded LA freeways. You would be amazed by the number of calls we generate from people who see the trucks.
So I could absolutely see “Green Hybrid Truck”, or some such, on these vehicles as a eye catcher and a promotion. Again, I think that you would be amazed at the number of businesses who could see the value in such a thing.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (6:34 pm)I said weight and cost could be improved, I’ll even admit that power may be improved, if a lot of really smart folks are paid a lot of money to stare at the problems and play with the results for a long enough time. My issue remains not a lot of efficiency will be gained.
From my point of view the largest gain for GM is to be able to say to suppliers: look you may gain market share and be the must have supplier, but you will not be granted outsized margins from us because we can do what you do in house.
The last thing the new GM needs is to emulate the old GM and tie up huge amounts of capital in a perpetual second best solution, when for a vastly smaller investment their suppliers can supply the best of market solutions. At this level of investment GM is parked right in the best of both worlds. Even if they can come up with some incredible LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS BREAKING solutions, they would be in position to use them in house or license the technology to suppliers.
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (6:49 pm)Back on topic, this is great news on all levels. Well done to all. +10,000. Again, great comments bloggers, you’re on a roll today. Tomorrow will be even a better day. How’s that for stepping out of character? I just can’t help it. For some reason, I am having an optimism attack!
LJGTVWOTR!!
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Jan 26th, 2010 (6:50 pm)#118
Amen to that! Preach on brother. +1
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (6:53 pm)Good point. Is the roadster sport then 248 HP at the same 70 pound weight and different windings?
Is 40% of the remaining 5% a lot?
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (6:54 pm)Breaking News…..
Toyota’s having a really bad day…..
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ai5RrPHlOqJM&pos=4
They’re suspending sales on 8 models because of the pedal / throttle problem. NBC was also reporting some plants will shutdown for a while for the same reason.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (6:56 pm)Quick, get Tag!
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Jan 26th, 2010 (6:58 pm)…Beat me to it!!
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Jan 26th, 2010 (6:59 pm)That’s weird? Didn’t all this stem from the Pruis incidents? The Prius wasn’t even included in the 8 models mentioned.
Or is this totally diff?
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:03 pm)I didn’t miss your [oint and in fact pretty much agree with you.
However, you put down the first Georges comment. That wasn’t necessary to make your point.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:11 pm)The media here in Northern Indiana had a story yesterday that a local company (CTS Corp) was involved in the pedal issue. CTS has a plant in Canada that has been supplying pedals to Toyota.
I’m assuming there is a design issue with a part used in many models.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:12 pm)Let’s not forget that every Volt needs an ICE driven electric generator of equivalent power to it’s electric motor.
Since motors and generators are very similar devices, it is possible that GM would leverage their investment by also building EREV generators at the Baltimore plant.
If we can read that aspect into the announcement, it goes even further to confirm that GM will have the capabilty to drive advancements and push down costs in most areas of EREV design and production.
So unless someone can show it to be otherwise, I can’t help but read “motors and generators” where Lyle has written the the word “motors” .
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:25 pm)I remember those day in my manufacturing years.
Us: Your cable doesn’t fit right…
Supplier: Yes it does.
Us: No it doesn’t. You changed the cable.
Supplier: The cable meets your specs.
Us: But now it’s blocking sensitive thermal sensors.
Supplier: But it meets your specs, Length, Impeadence, bend ratio and stress relief.
Us: But you changed to a wider girth/width cable.
Supplier: Your specs don’t indicate Width/Girth of the cable.
lol….
Yeah, I remember those days.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:30 pm)#149 & #150
Or statik, LOL
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:37 pm)Hmmm, lithium isn’t just great for batteries – works well for manic attacks (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:37 pm)Understood, thank you for the clarification.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:38 pm)LOL, I replied already.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:45 pm)I looked at my original comment and I don’t see it that way, if interpreted as such my bad. However, If I am rude or boorish in the future just say it. But, please don’t say I got the facts wrong…because that hurts my feelings
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:51 pm)I hear and understand your point, but as a businessman you have to be able to justify the cost of any purchases.
Green credibility is a very good thing, all I’m saying is that proving the operating cost advantages of a 2-mode truck is an even stronger incentive to buy.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (7:59 pm)Here’s the oficial poo poo for those all those toy nuts. Went down to the local Toyota dealer as soon as I saw this. No test drives, no sales, no idea when they will get a fix. They told me not to drive my car if I had one of those on the recall list. How’s that ford and chevy quality lookin now?
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+1
Jan 26th, 2010 (8:09 pm)I believe the Prius had a problem with the brakes that was specific to the Prius. This is a totally different issue with the gas pedal getting stuck. And it affects a lot more vehicles. As in, all of them. The sheer number of cars included in the recall is mind boggling IMHO. So much for Toyota quality.
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Jan 26th, 2010 (8:14 pm)#157
I wonder if they have any to spare down at the Toyota mine?
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Jan 26th, 2010 (8:21 pm)Need a new thread on this one. Any speculation on just how much this one will cost Toyota in the long run? Hundreds of millions or are we talking Billions, either way good news for the volt
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Jan 26th, 2010 (8:23 pm)#161
As a businessman, I can do any bleeping thing I want to. That’s one of the few compensations for the daily stress of running a small business. We go racing as much as we can, and justify it because our customers love it. Does it generate enough additional business to pay for itself? Probably not, but we do it anyway. Some things you do because life is too short not to, cost effectiveness be damned.
If the thing was cost effective sure, all the more motivation to buy it. And maybe that’s all that counts for big corporations. Although the level of corporate jets and limos one sees leads me to doubt it. But, at our level, we might do it anyway, for all of the other reasons we all talk about here for buying a Volt.
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+1