Electrification of the automobile depends on the natural salt lithium. Lithium is found predominantly in Asia and South America where vast stores are present in salt lakes and salt flats.
As electrified automobiles are built on mass production scale and in ever increasing volumes, ensuring supply of lithium to battery makers becomes critically important.
Though Toyota appears at the surface more conservative about using lithium ion batteries in cars, relying more on older nickel metal hydride batteries in their current hybrid lineup, there is ample evidence the automaker is working diligently to line up their future supply line. These efforts will both assure ample supply is available to meet demands but will also allow them to push prices down and maximize profit.
Toyota affiliate Toyota Tsusho Corp. has formed a joint venture with the Australian company Orocobre to develop a lithium deposit in Argentina. Ocorobre owns and operates the Salar de Olaroz lithium deposit in northwest Argentina. The deal will make Toyota part owner.
The deposit is considered to be high quality and high volume.
“The size and quality of the deposit is world-class and we believe will produce high-purity, battery-grade materials required for the global battery industry at a cost that is competitive,” said Toyota Tsusho.
Toyota Tsusho will have a 25% stake in the project and Toyota will fund at least 60% of the project’s development.
Construction is expected to be completed by early 2011 with production beginning by the end of that year.
Toyota had already established a joint venture with Japanese battery maker Panasonic in 2007. Panasonic purchased 50% of battery company Sanyo last month.
Toyota plans to begin selling a lithium-ion battery powered plug in Prius next year and a small battery electric car in 2012. They have also gone on record stating plans to double hybrid output to 1 million units in 2011, and plans to add 10 new hybrid models to its lineup over the next few years.
This entry was posted on Saturday, January 23rd, 2010 at 9:24 am and is filed under Battery, Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
-25
Jan 23rd, 2010 (9:29 am)(click to show comment)
+3
Jan 23rd, 2010 (9:31 am)There have been so many conflicting reports that lithium is/is not in short supply it is hard to know what to believe.
However, the size of this particular deposit(multiplied by others) suggests there may be enough to go around, and around, and around.
Moreover, isn’t there strong evidence that lithium batteries are recyclable for their raw product content after reaching the end of their useful life(in a car, for example)?
Jan 23rd, 2010 (9:36 am)Good for Toyota. You have to give them credit for choosing a path to take and following it through.
Ford is making the very successful hybrid Fusion. And should be rolling out a battery powered Focus this year.
GM is working on both hybrid and EREV (battery electric drive with liquid fuel extender) vehicles.
Tesla and Fisker are using battery technology to take direct aim at the higher end car market. The Fisker looked impressive at the L.A. Auto Show 09.
It’s a sure bet that Korea will seemingly come out of nowhere with a battery truck offering. And, as we know, China has the battery crossover moving along in development.
Once again, best of luck to Toyota with the lithium hybrid cars.
=D~
+5
Jan 23rd, 2010 (9:37 am)Toyota is obviously over their fear of Lithium batteries.
My hope is that Lithium is just a 5 – 10 year phase in battery development as we develop a far better battery or capacitor system to store electrons in the cars.
+4
Jan 23rd, 2010 (9:38 am)Does anyone know if there are lithium deposits in the USA? We have salt flats but I am not sure if lithium is present.
+2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (9:43 am)Lithium is good, as long as we do not start digging potholes in the Bonneville Salt Flats. HeHe.
+6
Jan 23rd, 2010 (9:46 am)Yes, we have significant Lithium deposits too. They just aren’t being exploited now because the ROI has not been accepatable. Active mines were shuttered because costs were too high.
-2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (9:52 am)Off topic here but, does anyone know if it’s possible to tap lighting to feed the power grid either directly or indirectly.
By directly I mean, send the current through some spike cleaning process and into the grid.
By indirectly I mean, use the lighting to heat and power a generator that feeds the grid.
Its 2010, shouldn’t we be able to find charged clouds and tap that energy before it discharges into the ground?
NPNS!
+2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (9:58 am)Just a difference in strategy…Toyota prefers to keep their plans on non-conventional vehicles more secret than GM. Toyota’s cautious statements on Lithium batteries can be perceived in different ways.
While I like the tech, the Prius is just too “fugly”. The Volt is not a sports car, but it looks much better than a Prius IMHO. Also GM’s Voltec has the potential to be a “better tech”…if GM can deliver a quality product/service to each and every customer.
+4
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:10 am)For a company who’s CEO laugh at GM two years ago for going with Lithium batteries, they sure have made a bob-face. Can we really trust what Toyota says? I don’t think so! I hope GM has taken proper steps to assure their share of lithium.
+8
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:14 am)If a picture of a battery were put next to the lithium salt picture above you would have… a salt and battery.
+2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:18 am)Anybody here know how to buy stock in lithium futures? Seriously.
+4
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:31 am)Western Uranium has a significant presence in the development of Kings Valley’s lithium deposits (in Nevada), so maybe there or directly into its subsidiary, Western Lithium.
Koz is right about domestic sources of Lithium, we have quite a bit in Kings Valley and Kings Mountain alone, but when the price dropped a few years ago, Kings Mountain shut down. Now Kings Valley is coming on and if the price of lithium spikes, which it may, then Kings Mountain may re-open as well.
I am just glad that 16 kWh batteries don’t need much in the way of expensive material and that the economies of scale will start kicking in soon, both on batteries and on electric intent parts for EREV’s and BEV’s.
The next 3 or 4 years are going to be interesting! It is going to be like the 1930′s with new, small car companies coming up with niche products and the big boys bobbing and weaving to stay ahead.
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=WLC.V#chart1:symbol=wlc.v;range=1y;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined
+2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:38 am)Great point. But it’s no so much what the chemistry is as it is how much material you need for the battery. Lithium-air batteries would still require lithium but far less material, making them both lighter and less expensive. And some of the technologies out of Japan would let you recycle the material.
But the 10-15 year time frame may be too short.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:46 am)I would bet that if electric cars become popular there will be big money behind research for further developments. Battery labs will pop up in all of the major universities world wide and the pace of large battery development should increase.
My original thought was hinting that the problem of limited lithium, if a problem at all, may be moot as different options will probably come about.
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:49 am)There are several major lithium related stocks available to buy. These are speculative in that although the demand is obviously there. Initially these companies will be spending a lot of money securing locations to mine. I believe the next two quarterly reports will conclude with with:
General Lithium has contracted with X company and Y company to deliver Z tons of lithium in 2011. General Lithium is carrying $10 million in debt due to the acquisition of Canada mine A and Nevada mine B. Shares down 3% on this news.
History shows that South American stocks are often made or crushed pending the political status of the area. These are also tied into the price of gold. Which is in nose bleed territory now. The good news is that the labor pool is very deep and the weather is mining positive. I still feel better about Canada and USA lithium stocks. Expect these stocks to start the ramp up in the third quarter of 2010.
=D~
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:51 am)Lithium is a very common element. It’s found everywhere, including seawater. The issue, as with almost all extractive commodities, is that you want it concentrated in one place. You don’t, however, need all that much lithium and you should be able to recycle it.
-1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:54 am)Sure ya did. I just saw it, up there ^ ^ ^
It’s probably time for me to take MY lithium.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:58 am)Lightning, while it represents a very high intensity discharge, is also extraordinarily brief. Plus, it’s intermittent and unpredictable.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:01 am)It must be nice to be number one and have huge cash reserves to just go and buy your suppliers and such. Henry Ford did the same thing back in the ’20s. The trick for them will be knowing when to get out. I believe that Lithium batteries are only temporary. Batteries will get much better and chances are they won’t be based on Lithium chemistry.
+5
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:06 am)There is no such animal for that at the moment. The problem is really the sweet spot the futures trade at, (year and less), and the real volume/trend for lithium is a lot farther out than that…so right now the price is all over the place.
At some point it will be necessary, so that automakers (and the resources based companies themselves) don’t blow their own brains out and have some kind of hedge…but that day isn’t today.
If you want to make a play right now, you have to do it at the ‘ground level’ If you want a domestic play that is actually producing, that is not hugely speculative and you won’t lose your shirt, you could look at something like FMC Corp, which is still not a pure play, or something even less pure, but still balanced with Rockwood Holdings.
I suspect maybe you are looking for something 100% however, something that is in the ‘big score’ territory. This is dicey, your probably good to do some of your own research, subscribe to some magazines (I get Resource World Magazine myself…just subscribe and year and cancel, they still send it to you forever) http://www.resourceworld.com/
…and definitely hit up a ‘show’ just to get a feel for it. For instance in Canada, we are pretty ‘into’ the resource sector, and have a decent annual show that has a lot of ‘potential’ lithium players hocking their wares:
PDAC 2010 Investors Exchange – Mining Investment Show, March 7 – 10, 2010 in Toronto. (I’ll be hitting it up on March 9th myself…runs the 7th-10th).
http://www.pdac.ca/pdac/conv/index.html
There are a couple not dissimilar (and larger events) in the USA, just hunt around a bit.
Word of caution. Naturally, at these shows, on the web, with your investment house, and in magazines there are lots of ‘pumpers,’ so be careful. Also where ‘all the action’ is right now are generally also considered to be unstable areas. There is certainly a lot of risk to go with potential reward here…even more than normal.
/hope that helps
+5
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:07 am)You are getting a real charge out of this… !! (;-)
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:14 am)Florida has more lightning than most places on Earth. There is a facility I’ve seen videos of; which captures lightning by launching small rockets which trail thin wires behind them. The resulting flash is fascinating; it starts out as a searing white straight line — like the firing of some science-fiction ray cannon — which then kinks up as it’s own magnetic fields take over. The purpose of this experimentation is to test the effect of lightning (for real) on various kinds of electrical equipment.
I have my doubts that lightning capture would actually result in much useful energy. Though very impressive (and destructive), the voltages involved are in the millions, with very little actual current.
If I were going to try this, I’d construct a superconducting magnet with a continuous winding and two open ones. The lightning would be captured as described above, and directed through the shorter of the two open windings, to ground. The induction would cause current in the continuous winding which would continue circulating due to zero resistance. The second open winding would bleed off the resulting magnetic field gradually, providing the power output.
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:16 am)Which stocks will rise first? Lithium mining or electricity providers?
I placed a bet on an electricity delivery stock in Oct 2009. Up 20% at the sale in late December. The stock is now back down 21%. Just bought $8000 more. This is a mix of coal, natural gas, and wind delivery.
With the stock market being jerked around by Federal Government policy and threats of filibuster. Medical suppliers are a good place to be as well. Baby boomers need to be serviced regardless of world events. This is my largest holding at $45,000.
Food services and providers are also a good place to invest. McDonalds, for example, just posted a big surge in earnings. This upward thrust occurring in the middle of an economic trough. I currently have $15,000 bet on food providers.
Move toward lithium mining and possibly electricity providers in the middle of 2010. The electric vehicles are starting to roll in. And they will be thirsty for juice. Good luck with the investments.
=D~
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:18 am)You are all assuming that Lithum will still be the answer in 10-15 years. There is a lot of R&D money being poured into battery development. Here’s one that’s being funded by DoD that has the potential to be a game changer.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1604912,00.html
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/virus-battery-0402.html
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:23 am)There is plenty of room in Lithium chemistry for a great deal of improvement. In fact, IMHO, I strongly suspect that there is a lot of “low hanging fruit” which will result in a fairly rapid period of improvement once Lithium actually hits the road. Modest research investment will have lucrative results.
Any new technology will have to start small and grow, just as Lithium did. As it appears and begins to ramp up, Lithium will be running away with performance increases. The takeover of a new technology may be more drawn-out than you may imagine.
As time goes by, it will take more and more effort and money to make smaller and smaller improvements to Lithium-based battery technology. At some point, the time will be right for some new usurper technology to take the stage.
Barring a wild card, it would be a mistake to count Lithium out for the next 10 – 20 years.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:26 am)http://autos.aol.com/article/lithium-resource
Darn to late again. Keep an eye on Greenland or Iceland. One of them has a bunch of the stuff.
Take Care
Arch
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:34 am)Frankly, I find the direction of this discussion to be a bit shocking — :-O
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:37 am)Good to hear from you, statik
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:37 am)Lithium is abundant. This will happen.
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-fueled. Looking forward to the launch.
-1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:39 am)Seasoning’s Greetings
=D~
+2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:41 am)Make no mistake about it, there is NO shortage of Lithium worldwide and never will be, in fact there is a huge abundance of Lithium throughout the world.Mining it is another issue altogether. Lots of politics and payola involved.
- Deep Mining Executive
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:43 am)Remember, we all have to be well-grounded to ‘plug in’
… and then we press “on.”
-19
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:46 am)(click to show comment)
-17
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:51 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:53 am)We all certainly are Energized by this conversation – oh wait, that damn bunny may come after me now!
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:09 pm)Thanks for your support Ty Webb. Oh, by the way. I saw Judge Smails. He says he’s gunning for you.
Remember back a year ago. GM dealerships got together to buy GM stock at $9.20 per share. GM stock then shot up to $12.90 per share. Before heading down, step by step, to 50 cents. Did the dealers get out in time? Or did they eat the loss?
=D~
+4
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:14 pm)#10
No s**t! +1 What was it, day before yesterday we had a thread on how Toytota thinks the grid won’t support electric vehicles? And today they are opening a lithium mine, LOL. When it comes to disinformation and FUD, the KGB had nothing on Toyota.
+2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:19 pm)Toyota seems to have a love-hate relationship with Li. They keep dissing it in their PR even as they work towards using it.
What that means is
- Toyota is behind in Li technology
- They are afraid that others are leap frogging them in EV
- They want everyone to slow down until Toyota catches up
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:20 pm)#21
Nice to see you break cover once in a while big guy. +1 A happy and prosperous 2010 to you.
-1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:26 pm)Have you all heard?………there is a rich supply of lithium on the moon of a distant planet; the moon is called Pandora. We just need to work out a deal with the local people known as the Na’vi. Shouldn’t be a problem.
+4
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:26 pm)There is a lot of Li available in the world. Infact several mines in OECD have been closed since it is so much cheaper to get Li out in Chile.
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:26 pm)#36
Forget Jay and Conan. The real laughs are at GM-Volt.com, LOL. +1 to all.
+3
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:28 pm)#34
World LEADER in FUD. Their FUD trolls even work weekends.
+2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:28 pm)What is clear is that Toyota at least believes that their is a high potential for price volatility for raw lithium in the future. Vertical integration is a long practiced way to increase profits and insulate ones company from raw material price fluctuations. What will be interesting is to see if General Motors responds with a similar stagey. I guarantee this is causing a heavy review of pricing forecasts of lithium and some teeth mashing at GM. This move makes sense and I believe will be very worrisome for the General. I think It may warrant a similar response from GM if they too see high price volatility in the future. But still choosing not to fully integrate like Toyota has would be wise. If GM were also to get into raw material production but still not make the actual cells it would be a safer bet. While continuing to integrate the parts of the supply chain like pack production that have low volatility makes a lot of sense. GM was very wise to not produce its own cells. Lithium Ion plants are very expensive and the chemistry is still changing rapidly so their is too much chance of having high fixed costs and R&D investment in technology that soon becomes obsolete. This is a very interesting development.
+2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:35 pm)Here is more information (can’t edit my other post). Most of Li battery is recyclable.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:41 pm)my question is why Argentina why not Bolivia? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Bolivia has the largest lithium deposits of any country. (Plus they could use the economic boost since they are one of the poorest in South America)
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:45 pm)I wasn’t clear in my earlier post that vertically integrating raw material production only makes sense IF price volatility is a major concern which is still not clear. EVNow makes some nice points but even under a high % of recycling scenario their would still be near term risk of price spikes because a quick uptake in demand could occur and their would be insufficient worn out batteries to be recycled that could increase supply. The question becomes how much will demand outstrip strip supply initially and how much risk warrants the cost of vertically integrating raw material supply.
+3
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:48 pm)I believe the Morales administration has nationalized the salt flats so at this time it is not politically feasible and much more complicated to do the same thing in Bolivia.
+2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (12:50 pm)______________________________________________________
#21 statik Said:
“…At some point it will be necessary, so that automakers (and the resources based companies themselves) don’t blow their own brains out and have some kind of hedge..”
_________
I agree w/ Statik on that one.
Toyota’s JV w/ Orocobre is basically a form of taking a Lithium hedge position…but vis-à-vis direct ownership vs. some sort of derivative contract.
Expect to soon see announcements from Toyota with regards to their developing strong Plug-In offerings; not the silly Prius Plug-In (11mile AER, w/ 65mph limit).
______________________________________________________
+6
Jan 23rd, 2010 (1:08 pm)Only if Toy can ever get their cars to stop running away on their own.
What are they going to recall next?
Jan 23rd, 2010 (1:12 pm)I did a little googling – and here are a few website from US based lithium mining operations. The first will extract lithium from the hectorite clays of Kings Valley (Nevada/Oregon) and the other from the saline brines of Fish Lake Valley (Nevada).
http://www.westernlithium.com/news-items/4533
http://www.lithiumcorporation.com/project/index.html
Jan 23rd, 2010 (1:19 pm)BTW, here’s a firm in Australia that with mines that hope to produces 16 million tones of ore with 1% Li20:
http://www.galaxyresources.com.au/documents/GXY83-GalaxyincreasesMtCattlinResourceMineLife100119_000.pdf
Jan 23rd, 2010 (1:25 pm)All of these electricity jokes are a bit draining.
The article doesn’t mention if GM has made any similar moves to corner the lithium it’ll need of *its* batteries. Anyone know if they have?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 23rd, 2010 (1:35 pm)I can’t wait until we’re this concerned about Barium Titinate!
Jan 23rd, 2010 (1:39 pm)Is that a Ford crew cab in the picture?
It’s definitely not a Toyota. Heh.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (1:43 pm)#56
Maybe it’s a Phoenix, LOL.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (2:04 pm)I’d bet GM is ok indirectly for any future lithium/battery supply.
Great commentaries today.
(back to work. really big backlog still.)
Have a great weekend everyone.
-10
Jan 23rd, 2010 (2:27 pm)(click to show comment)
-5
Jan 23rd, 2010 (2:30 pm)Corporate funded takeover of Bolivia may be necessary. Mercenaries could takeout leadership in less than 24 hours. Coup Time !
-6
Jan 23rd, 2010 (2:32 pm)That’s a Toyota you dumbass ! (Know Your Trucks)
Jan 23rd, 2010 (2:33 pm)AKorean truck manufacturer is already supplying Phoenix Motor cars with the chasis. The batteries use Altairnano lithium titanate oxide batteries.
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/
“Phoenix is currently working on an expanded battery pack that will allow a 200-mile range, still permitting a 10-minute charge.” The expanded battery pack was targeted for availability in 2009. The current design uses a 35KWh battery.
The company previously filed for bankruptcy so it is not clear whether they will be a successful EV manufacturer in the future. The current website was updated 23 Jan 2010.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-9
Jan 23rd, 2010 (2:34 pm)Barium Titinate is WORTHLESS. Get your head outa your arse doofas.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (2:48 pm)I saw a documentary on this where they were trying to harness lightning and also do research in Florida. They said Florida gets more lightning strikes than anywhere else in the US. They basically shot a rocket into the clouds w/a tether attached to the earth. I don’t remember if there was any commercial outcome.
EDIT: Didnt see your post at 23 Jackson.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (2:52 pm)Please read my #23
Thx
Jan 23rd, 2010 (2:54 pm)PDNFTT.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 23rd, 2010 (2:54 pm)It was announced today, that Toyota scientist have solved a major hurdle with Lithium batteries. They have successfully ionized two lithium particles using a bi-phased, multi-wave IR xenon laser modulated at the resonance of Lithium. The newly created Lithium forms a crystaline structure, that is chemically more stable and electrically more conductive.
This new compound will double the power density of Lithium batteries, and Toyota has applied for a patent on this new di-lithium crystallized compound.
Rumor has it, that NASA is very interested in this technology for use in its new propulsion system for inter-planet exploration!
Seems “logical”, wouldn’t you agree?
+2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (2:59 pm)I didnt see this posted … so I guess I’ll say it.
Toyota will be pissed if Eestor becomes real.
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (3:08 pm)It wasn’t posted and you’re RIGHT (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 23rd, 2010 (3:10 pm)@ Jackson & kdawg,
True, lightning can be induced to strike. But the amount of energy per strike (not all that great, due to its brevity), combined with the cost of storage facilities (very costly, if even feasible) combine to make it not worth the trouble.
I’m sorry – I don’t have any analyses or citations to show you. Maybe someday it’ll be feasible, but today I think it’s still just a nice thought.
EDIT:
To quote Jackson:
>> “I have my doubts that lightning capture would
>> actually result in much useful energy.”
Yep, I agree.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (3:10 pm)Thanks.
I’m always kicking/lurking around in the background, and still get drawn out into the open once in awhile if I can be of any use, lol.
/a prosperous 2010 to you as well my friends, looks like it is going to be a interesting/volatile year
Jan 23rd, 2010 (3:11 pm)Wasn’t Scotty on Star trek always looking for dilithium crystals?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 23rd, 2010 (3:14 pm)Good to see you Statik. Yes, I think that the next few years are going to very interesting on a lot of levels.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 23rd, 2010 (3:16 pm)“Achh! We canna take much more of this, Captain; she’ll blow apart!!“
“Do you know your crystals are cracked?!!”
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (3:16 pm)#61
Yeah, you just didn’t recognize it because there were no Taliban riding in the back waving their AKs in the air.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (3:26 pm)LOL, “I’m givn’ya all she’s GOT!”
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 23rd, 2010 (3:58 pm)There’s considerable energy in each lightning bolt, but the voltage is high, making it hard to work with. Also, a lot of energy is used up ionizing air Storing the rest, assuming one could, would really take a lot of Lithium batteries. (I am trying to connect to today’s topix.)
Then again, it might recharge one’s Volt really really fast.
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (4:02 pm)Or turn it into a smoldering Car-B-Que.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (4:03 pm)Only if it’s going 88 mph.
Great Scott!!
Jan 23rd, 2010 (4:05 pm)Only a small fraction of the weight of a lithium-ion battery is lithium. Lithium air batteries eliminate much of the other content of the battery but still use every bit as much lithium.
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (4:06 pm)Then … more power to you!
Jan 23rd, 2010 (4:07 pm)Car-B-Que. That is too funny. Thanks.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (4:10 pm)ho, ho, ho
Jan 23rd, 2010 (4:20 pm)I actually came up with a design for a water heater with lots of thin parallel plates that could conduct a lightning surge and raise the entire 55 gallon volume of water temperature ~20 Deg from a single lightning strike.
Unfortunately, it would only be ‘practical’ as part of a hot-water system, and even then the relative scarcity of lightning on a year-round basis makes it very impractical
Jan 23rd, 2010 (4:32 pm)Spike? There is no demand or need for the mines and potential mining sites that already exist, and it’s recyclable. Not convinced – ( http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=66 ). The recycling process follows the below steps:
1.The ESS is discharged for safety reasons
2.The Propylene glycol in the cooling tubes is drained and recycled locally
3.The electronics are removed and tested to determine if they can be reused
4.The wires and some other metals are removed and recycled locally
5.The modules are stored until the quantity is large enough to justify a stop on the “milk run” by the KBI truck (this semi truck makes regular runs from their facility in Los Angeles to their recycling facility in Trail, British Columbia, Canada).
6.Upon arrival at Toxco’s facility in Trail, the excitement begins (if you’re into hardcore destruction). The modules are frozen in liquid nitrogen to prevent further reactions of the lithium components.
7.The modules are put into a shredder with mammoth teeth and broken into chunks less than 2” long (tiny sparks appear, but otherwise it’s surprisingly not that exciting).
Also see comment #46 as there isn’t even a lot of lithium by weight or content in todays batteries according to EV Now. See comment # 42 also.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (4:38 pm)#77
I thought you caught/stored it in a bottle (jar?). Sorry. Couldn’t resist.
+2
Jan 23rd, 2010 (4:45 pm)Totally ungrounded.
Did someone slip something into the site’s ventilation system? Lot’s of comedy today! (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (5:43 pm)Great postings today on a topic which has not previously been given the attention it properly deserves: the future global lithium supply and its ability to meet projected demand from EV’s.
Readers should have a look at articles dealing with a January 2009 conference held in Santiago, Chile. This conference was entitled “Lithium Supply & Markets” and was organised by “Industrial Minerals” magazine. It was attended by 150 geologists, mining engineers, chemical engineers, producers, battery experts, etc.
The conclusion coming out of this conference was that fears that the world’s future lithium supply would be strained by the widespread adoption of EV’s are largely unfounded. One of the presenters at this conference, R. Keith Evans, a geologist himself, estimated global recoverable reserves of lithium to be about 15 million tonnes (with a million tonnes being able to supply at least several hundred million vehicles). His analysis is quite thorough and can be read at: http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/245042-r-keith-evans/2584-lithium-facts-from-the-santiago-chile-conference-january-2009
Keep in mind as well, that most arguments concerning so-called “peak lithium,” do not take into account the strong likelihood that lithium ion battery packs will most likely be recycled in the future. Of course, whether or not such recycling attempts can be done on a large scale economically remains to be seen (but I’ll bet that it can be done economically!). Best regards, George, Sudbury, Canada.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (5:53 pm)hi George 88 …
Thanks for the info George. Lithium batteries for RC planes have recently come down in price. There are many suppliers now. They had to make the adjustment to maintain sales. What is happening is that people are buying more of them now that they are cheaper. Let’s hope this is mirrored in the automotive industry.
=D~
Jan 23rd, 2010 (6:51 pm)Yes, this happens in every industry. Competition is good for everyone.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (6:58 pm)What is happening at Hamtramick? Anything?
Jan 23rd, 2010 (7:15 pm)Here’s the report that triggered concerns about lithium:
http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf
And even they have to admit the following:
1) If every one of the 900 million vehicles in the world used a 10kWh Li/Ion battery, only 25% of usable lithium reserves would be used.
2) Unlike oil, lithium is recyclable.
Now if current population trends continue, then lithium may run out in 100 years or so, even with recycling. But if current population trends continue, we will run out of many other things before lithium! And in general, no current trend lasts indefinitely.
Also, by the time running out of lithium becomes a concern, we will have discovered a better electrical storage device that uses something other than lithium.
Bottom line: Don’t worry.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (7:34 pm)Regarding Lithium related stocks…..
Not long after Lyle started this site and I stumbled onto it, I did some searching for Lithium Mining stocks.
One that I found and watched closely for many months was SQM (
Sociedad Qufmica y Minera de Chile S.A.).
As gas prices were starting to head up (2007), so was this stock. In late 2007 I thought seriously about moving some money into it BUT I DIDN’T (I kept reading “mining stocks are too volatile….”). It was then fluctuating between $15 – $20 a share.
Well, the stock spiked up to just under $60 a share by mid 2008.
D’oh ! This was the second time I didn’t act on a stock hunch that could have netted a huge return (3 – 4 X).
Jan 23rd, 2010 (7:34 pm)Any particular reason this was held in Santiago? I will be there for a week in March, is there something I should try and see/visit regarding this?
Jan 23rd, 2010 (7:40 pm)I know they’re at least building a lot of automation, not sure if its being installed yet (im sure some has). (its Hamtramck btw)
Jan 23rd, 2010 (8:01 pm)Tell me about it. Passed on the Pixar IPO at $14. And years before this, AOL at $15. AOL was at 200 in a year. Just talked myself out of it, “There’s too much competition out there”. Oh well.
=D~
Human Genome is one reason I am in medical related penny stock plays. Currently hold one that is up 25% from a 52 week low just 3 weeks ago. Wish I had know about this one.
Human Genome Sciences (HGS) knows that the path to good health starts at the molecular level. Using its expertise in human genetics, the firm is working on therapies for infectious and autoimmune diseases and cancer.
Look at this chart. $1 to $32 in six months.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (8:03 pm)In addition the planes themselves have become larger…
The Yuneec E340
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:15 pm)Who’ll be the first to get a JOLT from their VOLT
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:45 pm)You’re right but I’m not sure why you think I’m disagreeing. The material savings I was referring to comes from using oxygen in the cathode. Lithium is in the anode.
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:52 pm)After seeing Teslas fully functional and running for good in Seattle, I think the Volt and other Hybrid’s like the Prius are just way behind.
Often I’ve seen people arguing in this forum that pure electric cars would be on the side of the road, etc. Well, that is not what is happening in reality. Ownes from the Tesla here in Seattle report it simply works. We have high-tech companies already including quick recharges in parking places. Charges have been built already between Seattle and Portland. That is it folks. The Volt for me is too little, too late. I don’t think it makes sense for me buying a $40K which runs only 40 miles then switches to the old combustion engine. I think GM, Toyota will take a surpreme lesson from Tesla and that is a good thing.
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:52 pm)The DOLT from a lightning BOLT?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (10:59 pm)You failed to mention the price tag of the Tesla, nor do you mention the dearth of battery testing performed by Tesla. If there is a lesson to be learned from Tesla it is that GM and Toyota are wise to evaluate their product before fielding it.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:18 pm)… then you can plead insanity and go on lithium!
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:21 pm)Tagamet:
Let’s mention the price for the Tesla:
$109K for the Roadster. Expensive? Well, not if I compare with a (now lame) Porsche. I am not interested in the Roadster though. That one is important to me just to prove that pure electric cars are totally feasible contrary to what GM, you and many others in this blog seem to believe.
Then let’s compare the Model S against the Volt:
$50K for the Model S. The Volt at $33K (after tax rebate) does not seem feasible to me. First of all the Tesla is at a luxury car level, at level higher than the Volt for sure. So the price tag for $50K for a Tesla is fair. Then If I travel with the Volt I can only go 40 miles electric. So what is the point? In intercities is where you care with recharge. If you have the navigator in my Tesla (or an iPhone) which can tell me location for quick recharges, I can drive my Model S just fine between Seattle and San Francisco and go electric all the way with 3-4 stops. The Volt would be simply not practical and you would resort to the very old, combustion engine and I can’t see how you guys even are trying to see a value in cars like the Volt.
+1
Jan 23rd, 2010 (11:31 pm)An electric Prius, too little too late.
+1
Jan 24th, 2010 (1:44 am)Tesla’s battery technology is lame. Wiring up a zillion laptop batteries and then air cooling them is wrong on several fronts. First the laptop batteries will degrade over a fairly short period of time. Second air cooling simply isn’t sufficient on hot days which is why the Roadster constantly overheats. Third all those connections make it impossible to adequately monitor the cells. Fourth the sheer number of connections make the pack prone to failure.
The Roadster is also completely impractical for longer trips. If you need to charge the battery you had better bring a sandwich or two because you are in for a very long wait. And let’s hope the one charging station you’re counting on is open. And yes, let’s stay on the one path in the US where you can charge these things with that proprietary charger. The Tesla may go vroom vroom but on a trip of any length the Volt will leave it in the dust.
At one third the price the Volt has three times the technology. IMHO of course.
Jan 24th, 2010 (2:53 am)The Roadster may be impractical for trips longer than 200 miles, but the Volt is practically not capable. If you travel intercity with the Volt is you get there but so what you are travelling using the old combustion engine so that does not count for me. Then I drive more than 30 miles everyday total so that means a car like the Prius plug-in or Volt would make plug every day and that would suck. To my knowledge the Roadster is a performance car not optimized for trips anyway as a old combustion engine Porsche is not either.
If Tesla can deliver the Model S with a quick charge for 45 minutes (80%) so then it will be another story. I will wait and see.
Regarding the battery pack failing in the long run by overheating, that is not the feedback I have received from people who owns the car around here so far. No problem, time will tell and very soon we will see.
As far as I know the Chinese BYD also is a pure electric vehicle which is in production already and running. If it is true that BYD will be brought to the US at $25K, then I want to see that.
THe good news is, very soon we will find out who is right or wrong about this since cars are coming to production relatively soon. Great.
+1
Jan 24th, 2010 (3:28 am)hi Laura # 107…
I understand how you feel. You look at the dozen companies offering alternative transportation as being a contest. This is fine. Many look at the efforts of the companies as a team effort to reduce the use of oil.
2010 is lining up to be the start of a major shift away from the burning of gasoline. The high number of new electric drive and hybrid vehicles is a signpost toward a safer and cleaner future for all of us. Does it matter which car brand wins? Or is it more important that they all try to come out on top?
=D~
+1
Jan 24th, 2010 (7:04 am)Hybrids have been the “necessity” in the “… is mother of invention” phrase for the electrification of passenger vehicles…and continue to be with the large volume of units in the field. Hopefully, EREVs will take it one step further. EVs are feasible for a large part of the population (large cities) with the desire to modify their lifestyles to the requirements of an EV. I’m not implying that it is significant life changing event, but charging-vs-refueling does require change. I am glad that EV enthusiasts exist. And range anxiety is more than just anxiety…at least for now. Absent of the negative side effects that have arisen from very, very, very wide use of the “old combustion engine” (ICE), it is still a time proven energy conversion device for personal transportation.
I think that the Volt will alleviate the need to quit oil cold turkey. Since not everyone lives in large population areas with the close proximity of most destinations and so called practical EVs are still considered to be in the distant future by owners of ICE vehicles, the EREV’s can have a bright future.
+1
Jan 24th, 2010 (7:59 am)“If you travel intercity with the Volt is you get there but so what you are travelling using the old combustion engine so that does not count for me.” – Laura
Well “different horses for different courses” applies here. For most people getting there with the ICE definitely DOES count. They can save money and time by buying a Volt.
“Then I drive more than 30 miles everyday total so that means a car like the Prius plug-in or Volt would make plug every day and that would suck.” – Laura
I’m not sure what this means. but if you don’t want to plug in every day the Tesla (or any EV, or EREV) is not for you. Read the Tesla owners manual (available at teslamotors.com). It wants to be plugged in whenever it is not being driven. This provides power to heat or cool the battery to maintain the ideal temperature for life.
I’d love to see Tesla sell the WhiteStar for $57,400 (49,900 after tax credit), but I’m afraid that they have underestimated their costs again, just like they did with the Roadster (aka DarkStar). Also the base model will have 160 mile range. This is undoubtedly after a “range” charge that reduces battery life, so you will only get about 120 mile IDEAL range with a standard charge. Actual range is usually less due to weather and driver technique. This is usable for true EV enthusiasts like Laura, but it is a limitation that Volt owners will not have to worry about.
GSP
Jan 24th, 2010 (8:07 am)Some of these comments are simply not accurate or are misleading.
-Current mainstream 18650 cells have 1000 cycle life or more and 7 years of calendar life if properly cared for
-Tesla is not air cooling. They are liquid cooled (and heated).
-Monitoring and isolating is part of their core pack technology. Ask Daimler.
-The number of cell connections is a legitimate issue but it is also a source of strength in that a single failure at the cell level will have an imperceptible affect. Energy density is also increasing allowing for a reduction in cell count, although it will still be significant.
Tesla has more than 1000 Roadsters on the road now and if there are significant battery issues, they will start to come up this year.
Jan 24th, 2010 (8:36 am)Why do you presume that Tesla’s batery is so little tested and that this makes GM or Toyota appear wise? The 18650 cells were heavily tested AND utilized. Tesla spent a lot of time and effort engineering and testing their packs since 2004.
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf
There are now more than 1000 packs on the road. Some, in the protypes, for more han 2 years. Daimler bought 10% of Tesla and will use their packs in their electric Smarts. They have a reasonably engineering pedigree, wouldn’t you agree?
Laura is being extreme in her discounting of the Volt’s technology and the benefits of EREVs, but as you so aptly put in a pevious post this isn’t a zero sum game (unless, of course, you are currently enjoying the position of the least gas burning vehicle…cough…Prius…cough). Many people will still see BEVs as too limiting for some time to come. This is why ANYBODY interested in minimizing global oil consumption should be cheering for all practical EREVs AND BEVs AND the enabling interests.
Jan 24th, 2010 (8:44 am)Where the Tesla and other EV’s have been in use for about 2 years, and, at about a year or two in the future, after Volt is releasd in about 10 months or less, will we be hearing about the costs related to maintenance and pack servicing costs (as more and more will be out of warranty) and cell module/support equipment replacement costs?
Not at all from a marketing/competitive/image perspective, but, I would really be appreciative if any Tesla or other EV owner would share with us here their experiences regarding whatever they have to pay out of pocket to maintain their vehicle. (if there is not a ‘Non-disclosure Agreement’ in force regarding your expenses).
That would be a really helpful thing for us all to be instructed on how it was driven, how many miles were on it when it happened, the date it was placed into service, etc.
This is what Lyle has helped us with over the last year or so, to know about the MINI-E, and, it would be a really great service to have other long-term experiences shared here for everyone else to understand this important historical changeover to electrification. And, if you like, who these pioneers are, to be strongly appreciated and admired in a collegiate way of course.
Jan 24th, 2010 (9:24 am)That would be and is very interesting feedback to have. We are fortunate to have a couple of other Mini-E drivers already commenting on their driving experiences here and Prowler has commented on his Roadster experience on the forum. One can peruse the Tesla owners forum for real world feedback as well.
Jan 24th, 2010 (2:27 pm)Thanks. On spelling, too
Jan 24th, 2010 (10:58 pm)Lithium is more abundant than lead.
And if I’m not mistaken, there is a lead-acid battery in every car…so if there’s enough lead to go around for a lead-acid battery in every car, and Lithium is more abundant than lead, then there’s sure as hell going to be enough Lithium for both Plug-In Hybrids and Pure Battery Electric Vehicles for years to come.
Jan 25th, 2010 (3:07 am)Just an info, for the EU
In 2009, Toyota lost 20% of its sales in cars (with – 40% in Lexus).
Source (in Dutch) : http://www.autoscoops.eu/nieuws/2010/slecht-jaar-voor-toyota-europa
Regards,
JC NPNS
Jan 26th, 2010 (1:15 pm)That is in fact an Argentinean Ford Ranger.
So yes, the cab on the picture is a Ford, not a Toyota.