You will remember Bill Reinert, Toyota’s advanced technology manager who appeared in our last recent post.
He gave an interview to CNN in which he downplayed enthusiasm for electric cars.
He believes America isn’t ready for the electric car and that pushing them on people is a mistake.
“We don’t look at electric cars as a replacement for internal combustion cars,” he said.
He announced that Toyota’s upcoming mini pure BEV will arrive in 2012, will have a 40 mile range, and will not be sold, but leased.
“You don’t own it,” Reinert told CNN. “You get in it and pay by the minute or by the hour.”
Reinert also explained that pure electric cars are not a solution for families and longer range driving.
“A car that has a 100 mile range and needs to be recharged for eight hours after that, that’s not flexible enough for the modern family,” said Reinert.
Reinert also said that 100 mile advertised ranges are far from realistic, something I can personally account for.
“You’re out on the highway, you’re flooring it, your throttle position is wide open and you’re accelerating a lot,” he told CNN. “You’ve got the heater on and the air conditioner on and all these parasitic loads greatly drain the battery.”
Reinert did admit that GM might have developed the perfect solution with the Chevy Volt extended range electric car, letting people do most if not all of their driving on electricity with the built-in flexibility for extended drives and range reduction from parasitic loads.
“I greatly admire General Motors for going in that direction,” said Reinert.
There’s one thing we can agree on.
Source (CNN)
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 21st, 2010 at 7:31 am and is filed under BEV, Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+26
Jan 21st, 2010 (7:34 am)Thanks Lyle,
I have to agree with most of this.
I don’t believe we are ready for a BEV.
EREV is the master. Voltec is superior to anything that is currently available today.
I’m glad that someone from Toyota has finally seen the light.
+4
Jan 21st, 2010 (7:36 am)Great article Lyle. Nice to see Toyota agrees on something we are doing..
Tom
+5
Jan 21st, 2010 (7:38 am)Well, this time, I agree with everything Toyota said.
BEVs won’t go mainstream. EREVs will.
Perhaps this is Toyota’s way of saying that they’re developing a serious plug-in offering with at least 30 miles electric range. We can only hope…
+20
Jan 21st, 2010 (7:39 am)“You don’t own it,” Reinert told CNN. “You get in it and pay by the minute or by the hour.”
Huh? An electric Toyota Smart car with a pay-by-the-minute plan?
Toyota is really missing the mark. Can they be serious?
=D~
+16
Jan 21st, 2010 (7:48 am)“A car that has a 100 mile range and needs to be recharged for eight hours after that, that’s not flexible enough for the modern family,” said Reinert.
There are only a few times in the last 2 years the above would be a true statement for my family, so I could just take the other car in those cases.
I don’t understand the constant drumbeat of folks saying 100 miles a day is not enough. If it is enough 99% of the time and you have another care for the 1%, I can’t see how thats even an issue?
Certainly for one car families you can’t beat an EREV. However the story for BEV/EREV will come down to quality, performance and durability. So why do folks keep saying this won’t work or that won’t work? What I want to know for all these cars coming down the road is how much will they cost, how will they perform, how durable and dependable will they be?
Also the 100 mile range thing, because range varies, that puts doubts in peoples minds. For a pure EV, it would be nice to know some sort of standard for worst case scenario. I don’t know what worst case scenario is, but lets say it is driving 60 MPH with lights and heat on and it is zero degrees outside. What is the range in those conditions, because you certainly don’t want to get stranded in that sort of weather. If worst case scenario is 80 miles, then someone who rarely drives more than 60 miles in a day could be pretty confident with a car like that.
I still think that a combination EREV/BEV for a 2 car family makes a lot of sense. Especially if one person has a 60 mile work commute and cannot charge at work. That person could take the BEV to work and get 60 miles AER. When longer trips are needed the EREV is available.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (7:51 am)Too many Tom’s on here, changing my name from tom to ‘tom w’
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (7:52 am)BEV will go mainstream.. will it be 100 mile range, higher or lower?.. it all depends on the customer and what they need/want. I think 150 mile range will become the sweet spot.. more than enough to do away with range anxiety at a reasonable weight/volume.
Of course some people will always suffer from range anxiety, they will go for EREV or traditional hybrids.
-13
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:01 am)(click to show comment)
-1
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:03 am)Certainly 150 miles even in the worst scenarios would be enough for 99% of people. And batteries will most likely be affordable to make that a reality by the time the early adopters have all bought out every EREV/BEV that can possibly be made next 2-3 years.
Only problem with 160 mile range batteries is in a LARGE SUV (assuming 5 years from now we’ve doubled and doubled again battery efficiency and cost) how many KWH will that be to charge overnight. Lets say in 5 years they come out with a BEV Chevy Suburban with 160 mile AER BEV. Lets say it has a 128kwh with 64kwh usable. You wouldn’t be able to charge the thing overnight.
So even assuming significant improvements in batteries over next 5 to 10 years, I think EREVs with the sweet spot 40 miles AER could move into all the larger luxury SUV type vehicles, where as in the smaller sedans you could see a mix of BEV/EREV because these will be able to be charged overnight.
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:05 am)I couldn’t agree more.
There is a place in the market for BEV’s as a 2nd vehicle.
Used exclusively as a “city car”.
I recently saw the THINK City up close and in person.
Very impressive. Purpose built, well engineered.
+9
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:07 am)Let me chime in with an AMEN too. BEV’s are premature, whereas the Volt is not. The Volt will be a wonderful vehicle, even in its generation one condition. When the 2d generation large cell, long lived, 250 Wh/kg batteries arrive, then BEV’s may start growing in market share, because the generation 2 battery will cost about 50% of what the generation 1 battery costs. LCLWMV = less cost, less weight, more viability! But lest we forget, that same 2d gen battery will make the Volt and the Prius PHV even better too, so the only loser will the foreign oil. Sounds good to me.
+17
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:20 am)I never like an exchange stations of any kind. I for one take good care of the things I own. With an exchange, one never knows what he or she will get for the exchange. An example is with the 20lb LP gas containers. I remember getting rusty old containers for the like new ones I’d hand over.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:23 am)I agree 100% with #5 Tom. A 100 mile BEV would work fine for me, for longer trips I am sure someone will come up with good ideas to extend the range, some have mentioned pulling a trailer with a generator (may be they were kidding, I don’t know …..LOL) I was driving from Miami to the Florida Keys the other day and I saw a car with one of those rooftop storage boxes and I thought “If you can make that a little smaller, put a small generator and a small fuel container inside …..that would be a very nice range extender for a BEV”.
Luis
+5
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:23 am)I don’t agree. But choice is what we need, because we all have
different needs. BEVs will work for some people. EREVs for others.
As technology improves, there will be vehicles that everyone can be comfortable with. We can argue all day about range anxiety.
The bottom line is, we all have do what we are comfortable with.
So there isn’t any right or wrong opinion…unless you disagree with me. Then you’re wrong. lol
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:28 am)GREAT POST!
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:29 am)Well, Toyota has finally humbled itself a little.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:31 am)Ok can someone named George or Ed or Marvin get on here?
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:33 am)“Ok can someone named George or Ed or Marvin get on here?”
———————————————————————————
My thoughts exactly.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:35 am)Yeah, it already exists. Its called Zipcar.
+4
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:37 am)A small EV with 100 mile range and slow recharge like Th!nk, iMiEV, and Smart EV meets the needs of a very small market.
The EREV will meet the needs of a much larger market, but, more importantly, it will develop the polices, market, technologies and supply chain for the vehicles to follow – rapid recharge BEV’s and plug-in FCV’s.
+11
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:39 am)“I greatly admire General Motors for going in that direction,” said Reinert.
————————-
Wow I can’t believe he made that statement publicly. Lyle, did you leave off the part where he said “Did I say that out loud?” ?
I’m guessing that his boss at Toyota won’t appreciate that the Advanced Technology Executive is in a position to “admire” his competition’s strategy. I think instead that as the technology leader of your company, you want to be in a position that you believe to be superior, while considering differing strategies to be inferior.
i.e. If it’s such an admirable strategy, why didn’t you choose it?
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:42 am)If you’re looking for an economical Smart Car. Just buy one outright. Why retain Toyota as the daily middle man?
=D~
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:44 am)In only 600 years we’ll have BEV’s with on the fly charging.. see:
+7
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:44 am)I think this is where we all get confused. When the batteries get depleted you will be supplying all the power from the generator. Something like a small “Honda” home type portable generator that would fit on the roof just isn’t capable of providing that kind of power. I believe that is why the Volt has a 1.4 l ICE running the generator. Even at that some critics question whether that produces enough power.
+6
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:51 am)They don’t have to push it. Merely offering it would suffice.
Just give us the choice, and we consumers will sort out the winners and losers.
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:52 am)GM & Toyota are competitors, but they are also automakers in the same automaker-boat and mutally respect each other. They share suppliers and sometimes plants (NUMMI before it recently closed). I’m not surprised when I read these statements of admiration, which do go both ways.
+7
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:53 am)It sure sounds to me like Bill Reinert just tipped his hand that Toyota is developing their own EREV like the Volt in a secret “skunk works” project. They’ll supposedly surprise people with their own version of Voltec technology in a year or two. Probably 2012.
Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery you know. At least Bill Reinert is giving a traditional Japanese bow to General Motors about the Volt these days instead of bashing it.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:54 am)I thought that the Volt’s ICE was one of the things that would be purpose built with GEN 2. Is that still the case. I thought they would design a smaller engine for Gen 2. I thought they were using the 1.4 because they already were making it for other cars.
I thought many of the GEN 2 improvements are to be purpose built components that can be justified by the higher volumes expected?
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:55 am)Its aimed mainly at college kids who need a car every once in awhile. And probably can’t afford to own/maintain a car of their own, or don’t desire to.
I saw this a lot in Spain w/bicycles. Swipe a card and off you go on a bike. I dont see why it couldnt be an electric car.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:57 am)Diesel!
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:57 am)150 miles in the worst possible scenario means 300 miles for some other people.. lots of variability in this. I like using the standard EPA cycles to specify range.. I always match the EPA rating in my daily driving. The EPA did a good job in the last adjustment of these tests.. I will probably be one of those people that consistently gets 40 miles E range in a Volt.
The Raser Hummer prototype gets 40 miles range with a 41kwh pack.. that has to be the worst range in EV history for such a large battery pack.
http://www.rasertech.com/media/videos/the-electric-h3
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:58 am)Looks like Toymota has realized that denial is not a river in Egypt.
I must admit, however, that I never expected them to actually admit that the Volt has really found an elegant solution to the problems of electrification.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:00 am)In the lowest 1%! I like taking long car trips, and will travel over 200 miles Friday night, and drive back Sunday morning. I also take a 1000 mile road-trip every 4-6 months, Minnesota to Vegas, Minnesota to Branson, …
An EV with 200 mile range, and 20 minute fast recharge
may work for me. I will not pay premium prices for a second car with limited usefulness.
I may be the only one on this board who will put more gas miles than electric miles on their volt.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:09 am)Of course 100 miles is enough. But as we all know from the GM experience, perception is more important than reality. The perception that you will need more that 100 miles in a charge (or even the 65 you will probably get under harsh driving conditions), is what is going to dominate the consumers motivation to which vehicle they choose. Americans are used to going 300 miles on a tank, then stopping for gas anywhere anytime. That’s different from bringing the car home at night and charging it.
Also, what if the manufacturer recommends you deplete the battery to its minimum level before recharging? The consumer could very well try to follow this and on the 3rd night forget to plug it in since it is not a regular occurrence. Or they choose to charge every night anyway and degrade the battery prematurely, lowering the life of the battery and creating a false since of “this is a piece of junk”.
The EREV offers a solution to this. Ooops i forgot to charge, “Oh well”. But the consumer learns from this because now they are back to using gas, which costs more money, so they can get used to the car over time. And should they need to take a long road trip, they need no additional car, since the Electric cars are so expensive as it is, they may not have another car.
Just a another scenario in the saga of the electric car.
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:11 am)I believe Mr. Reinert’s comment about admiring GM’s developement of the Volt is true.
My experience in the machine tool industry has proven this to be true. They a capibale of seeing a good idea and then copying and improving on it.
Bottom line is GM, Don’t stop innovating and keep improving the Voltec concept.
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:16 am)I recently was looking at the Prius on the Toyota Canada website, and they officially list it as a series/parallel hybrid, in direct contrast with a series hybrid (Volt) and a parallel hybrid (Insight). They are billing it as the best of both worlds.
Sounds to me like they are ramping up to take on the Volt. They may market the plug-in prius as having the advantages of both a serial and parallel design, in an attempt to trump the Volt.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:23 am)While I agree that is the future, I think you might need to add to that 20 years estimate. Obviously battery tech has to increase both in terms of energy density but also in power input to allow fast charging. But once that is possible where is all that power going to come from? I know we’ve beat this poor old dead horse a million time but it needs repeating for newbies – the grid and the power generation is not in place to allow mass recharging during peak times. No problems off peak however so unless these recharge stations somehow have the capability of storing massive amounts of energy gathered off peak to be redistributed during the day EV’s will remain a niche vehicle for quite some time. How large that niche will be is an interesting question though. Most peoples 2nd car could be fulfilled with an EV in the next decade or so…
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:26 am)Since there’s an app for the Chevy Volt on the iPhone, Droid, and Blackberry, you’ll be able to do all sorts of stuff remotely with your Volt.
http://gm-volt.com/2010/01/06/chevy-volt-iphone-blackberry-and-droid-apps-unveiled/
I’m sure you’ll be able to configure the app to remind you to plug in your Volt so you run on electricity as much as possible. It all works remotely via OnStar. I bet at least 70% of the people who buy a Volt in 2011 will be the same people that already have a smartphone. If they don’t have one now, they probably will soon especially since Verizon and AT&T are lowering their prices on their plans.
No doubt about it, the Volt is going to be a high tech car. I’m sure companies like Apple will want to be associated with the Volt … especially if it’s a huge success.
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:27 am)If they sell a 12 mile aer Plug in Prius for 30K and the Volt has 40 mile AER for 33k – 7.5k= 26.5K. So the volt is a much nicer car for less money. What is the federal credit for a 12 mile AER car, I forget the size of the battery in the Plug in Prius?
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:30 am)Think back to physics class in high school or college. What % of the class “got it”? And that is just the portion that took the class. EREV and EV education will be an ongoing struggle. One of the main subjects will be conservation of energy, or in laymans terms, “no free lunch”!
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:33 am)Wow! Good for you Mr. Reinert.
It takes a lot of guts to say that to a major competitor in a publicized interview. WIth that being said, I’m glad that Toyota finally admitted to the superiority of EREV.
Honestly, some people keep on saying BEV will be perfect as a 2nd car. Well, I don’t think so. My friends live on literally the far north end of the city (50 miles one-way) and I live on the far south end. To see them, I need real world 100 miles range in mixed driving conditions with heater or A/C turned on. It’ll be impossible for BEV to meet this goal (with longevity re: battery life/reliability) for quite a long time.Honestly, even 150 claimed miles per charge would not be enough. If we are talking 200 miles plus with a decent battery life, then it would be viable.
In any case, I don’t honestly believe that majority of people can afford 2nd cars or 3rd cars. Current BEVs would only be viable for only limited # of people AND only in limited situations. EREVs are the winners here clearly as they would fit the need of most folks right off the bat.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:33 am)As renewable energy generation becomes more popular, and the grid becomes more distributed, it is possible that charging stations will generate some of their own power. In addition, it’s not unreasonable to think that they would have a buffer in place to gather charge off peak and distribute during peak hours.
The main problems are both energy density, and fast charging. If batteries cannot step up, there is still room for a fuel cell range extender to take centre stage. Either hydrogen, or more likely, methane (natural gas / bio-gas). The advantages that fuel cells have over batteries currently is quick refueling, and energy density (volume of on-board fuel storage) is increasing and costs are rapidly coming down. The nice thing about methane is that people with a natural gas furnace could install a filling line and compressor in their garage and fuel up at home as well. For those extended trips, you just pull up to the methane pump along the way.
Bill may be working for Toyota, but he’s not an idiot, and he makes some reasonable points. I don’t agree with all of them, but I see where he’s coming from on others.
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:36 am)I would just like to add that my assumption is that we should be producing natural gas from domestic renewable sources (carbon neutral bio-gas), and not pumping it out of the ground.
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:37 am)We’ll call the worst case range our Tom measurement or the Tom range. Very good point.
I agree with that assessment 100 %. Sort of. In theory it makes sense in terms of performance vs two ICEE’s per family. But in terms of availability the products don’t exist yet. In terms of price no one knows – except for the small teams of accountants, each sworn to secrecy in their respective positions at – GM and Nissan. So until 31 October 2010, Bill Reinert is right; sort of.
Then we’ll see if families begin to replace their commuter and weekend cars with Volts, and soon if the weekday runabouts and errend getters are replaced with Leafs or iMievs or Focus BEV’s.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:41 am)Agreed, the Toyota Prius PHV is being ramped up to take on the Volt. I expect the Volt will have a higher AER and the Prius will have higher mileage in charge sustaining mode. Initially, using the generation 1 battery, the Volt will probably cost more than $4000 more than the Prius PHV, but time will tell. If GM can get to within $4000 of whatever the Prius PHV sells for, rebate excluded, then after the rebates are applied ($3000 versus $7500) the Volt would be the hands down winner.
So we have two questions to kick around, cost and the size of the Prius PHV battery. If they double it again (5.2 to 10.4) they get much closer to the Volt’s AER and the rebate would offset the cost somewhat, especially if Panasonic breaks through with a generation 2 battery within the next 12 months.
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:43 am)I’m not saying they would actually trump the Volt, the AER is significantly less and that’s a major drawing card for the Volt, I’m just saying that it sounds like they are gearing up to take a swing. It’s just evidence that Toyota might have realized that they are behind the ball on this one, and are scrambling to hang onto their green cred.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:45 am)So if Toyota built a plug in car with an identical battery pack as the Volt has with their HSD drivetrain and kept the all electric range at 8 kwh which car would get the best gas mileage after a 400 mile trip? In this comparison I believe Toyota would get the best gas mileage because when the ice is used with the toyota the energy can go directly to the mechanical drivetrain . The other variable would be the CVT of the Toyota vs. electric drivetrain of the Volt. I would be interested to get input on this hypothetical comparison. Let’s also assume that the main electric drive motors are the same as well. I’m not looking for arguements just insight thanks.
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:47 am)I had the same problem with Michael, but I decided to stay with just “Michael,” and most other Michaels have added initials. The gravatar also helps.
Anyway, my wife and I are back from our one week trip to Jamaica to celebrate our 40th anniversary. I just had to say that since it’s been snowing all week in northern New Mexico.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:54 am)There is a pattern here. It starts at one of three points;
1) With GM consensus that Li Ion use is ten years away, until the hour the Volt concept was introduced, then every thing changed,
2) With Toyota introducing the Prius to industry cheers of “great science project,” then every thing changed,
3) Supply your own anecdote, which is a point where: every thing changes.
+5
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:58 am)The problem isn’t really the range. The problem is the recharge time. If you could recharge in 10 minutes, a 150 mile range wouldn’t bother too many people. Recharging in 10 minutes, however, is a tough problem and will make for some heavy duty electrical connections even if you could figure out how to recharge a battery that quickly.
Hydrogen fuel cells solve that problem. Hydrogen, however, has a slew of other problems associated with it. So, the question is; Which problems are harder to solve? The answer may be that both are solvable and we’ll be having this debate 20 years from now. The answer may be that neither is solvable and we will still be wonder why we don’t BEVs or HEVs in 20 years.
The EREV is a workable solution that allows you to run on clean electricity most of the time and still use your car to go anywhere at any time. I don’t really care what the technology under the hood is If the car goes about 40 miles electric before burning gas.
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:58 am)Depends on the biggest variable IMO. How much of your trip is from grid supplied electricity?
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:00 am)OK……. since you KNOW for sure that you are going to need the extra juice, may be you just turn the generator on from the very beggining, you wont’ be able to drive forever like with the Volt, but you will be extending the range, how much more I don’t know, we need some one to do the math, I don’t know about amps and volts and all of that.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:01 am)That’s part of the story. the capacity of the genset denotes the vehicles top speed (53kw in a volt body gives 100mph). and so the ICE driving the genset has to be able to provide 53kw (72HP) at a reasonable RPM level. GM (via opel/vauxhall) already manufactures tens of thousands of 1.0 and 1.2 litre engines for their Corsa, but the 1.0 only produces 44kw, and the 1.2, while managing 59kw, can only do so at 5,600RPM. Bank on 53kw still being over 5,000RPM, and it’s easy to see why the 1.4 makes more sense – it’ll be quieter and more economical.
A 1.0 turbo would be good for the volt, and usefull in the corsa too, it could replace the 1.2 and 1.4 by being sold at two different power levels. i’m sure this will happen within the next couple of years.
An ideal match would be the 1.3cdti engine that goes in the corsa, diesel may not help the fuel economy -that- much in the volt, but would make the product a lot more acceptable in europe.
+4
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:09 am)I agree. If Toyota thinks that this is the way to go, you can bet they’ve had an alternative in development for a while. As an American taxpayer who wants GM to succeed, I can’t say I’m thrilled about it.
Also, I also heard that Toyota invested in a lithium supply in Argentina. I hope that GM has done something similar to make sure they’re not frozen out of lithium.
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:15 am)Yea……but you are not going to use the full range every day…..so you can charge up the 50 miles from one day overnight, but still have the ability to go 100 or 120 if you need. Still if I was to buy a truck it would HAVE to be EREV.. Sometimes I tow trailers with heavy loads( racecar ) up hill, 100 miles one way …That will need a range extender. (Or a portable fusion generator
).
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:20 am)100 mile BEV, 20khw usable battery (so 5 miles travelled per kwh). We’ll make it easy and say we are travelling at exactly 60mph, and we start the generator immediately.
Our genny is 5kw (a reasonably large portable generator).
Travelling at 60, we are using 12kw and will be empty in 100 minutes. with the generator running we are using 5kw from it and 7kw from the battery, the battery will be empty after 2 hours and 51 minutes, after travelling 171 miles.
A 10kw generator would let you travel for 10 hours, completing 600 miles.
A 1kw generator would let you travel for an hour and 49 minutes, and complete 109 miles.
In conclusion, a 10kw trailer is overkill, 5kw would be very useful, 1kw would be pointless.
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:20 am)But zipcars aren’t electric. It doesn’t make any sense to me to have an electric car that you charge for by the minute. All the time spent charging is time that you can’t rent it. If you own an electric car, you can charge it while your not using it. If you’re leasing zipcars, you want to lease it out as much as possible.
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:23 am)Exactly my thoughts but much better articulated!
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:24 am)I agree, for the most part. I would argue though, that a certain amount of range is necessary before mass adoption, even if quick charging was available. My guess is 250-300 miles, if for nothing else but perception. Quick charging is a challenge, because of the amount of energy being transferred over such a short period of time. As ranges increase, or the size of the vehicles increase (BEV SUV for example) and battery packs store more and more energy, this will be an increasing problem since you will need to transfer more energy in the same amount of time. 10 mins for a 25 kWh pack is one thing, but what about 50 kWh, 75, 100?
Liquid fuels are still the trump card in terms of energy density. I don’t think hydrogen is efficient enough on it’s own as a fuel, which is where bio-methanol possibly comes in. Easy to transport, easy to store on board, carbon neutral and non-polluting from an air quality perspective, and possible to source domestically. It’s easy as pie to make from waste biomass, we already do it on reasonably large scales. Methane fuel cells are cheaper too.
Time will tell.
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:31 am)Of course He would believe that. Toyota is doing the best among the car makers. Toyota’s best selling product the Prius hybrid vehicle still has an ICE and still goes nowhere without fuel. So it is Toyota’s best interest to sponsor incorrect myths about plug-in cars like the previous post. All in an effort to keep sales up.
Every economic downturn in the last 50 years was preceded by a spike on oil prices. This summer it is predicted that gas will be over $3 a gallon further damaging our already weak economy. Let’s get off the oil needle and drive electric. A car like the Prius will not help much.
+9
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:31 am)Reinert: “You’ve got the heater on and the air conditioner on …”
There’s his problem right there. One or the other, Reinert, not both.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:32 am)Why did you accept rusty containers. Tell the proprietor that you DON’T want them and will only do business with him if the containers are newer looking. They don’t have to be perfect but not rusty. Buyer beware!
Time will tell which system of battery replacement works best. If exchange can be made on the fly and doesn’t take long, it may just become and option and all those gas stations can offer the service.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:35 am)Let’s all be Tom today.
Starcast
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:38 am)There are situations where you would want both on. Defogging in cold damp weather is probably the best example. We get that frequently in SW Ontario.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:38 am)Last day news said a 60% toyota owned company brought a couple of lithium mines in Argentina . They are going to be in the game with toyota mined lithium batteries.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:39 am)Actually a LOT of cars run the A/C to dry the air when defrosting/demisting the windshield.
Not defending our friend from Toyota but the truth is the truth!
Edit it seems kgurnsey @ 63 beat me to it!
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:39 am)With a 2d generation battery, a BEV could pack a 25 KWh battery, costing about $10,000 and sport a real world range of 68 miles per charge. Since Kia can make a car that can be sold in the USA for $10,000, it would seem many folks would be willing to buy a 68 mile BEV of less than $20000. I do not think we will find out until 2013, but my crystal ball is very flawed.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:40 am)A big plus one for Greg @ 60, make me laugh!
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:41 am)One very big problem possible problem with this concept is availablility of zipcars. If it doesn’t float with consumers, there just might be an insufficient number on the road to make it practical. China with its huge population had bicycles everywhere and their citizens just had to grab one and ride to where-ever they wanted to go. Drop the bike of off a the bike rake for the next user. I don’t see that happening even with the key card.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:44 am)#50 Jeffhre How much of the trip is from grid supplied electricity?
In the comparison each car would have the identical Volt battery pack fully charged from the beginning. Each car would then use the 8kwh of electricity and then go in their respective hybrid modes.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:50 am)That picture in Lyle’s post reminds me once again, that I really loath and despise Asian auto design. They’re saying that I won’t be able to actually own that car. Well, that all works out then, because there is no way I would want to own that. What ever fuel savings I might have would be eaten up with the expense of all the Dramamine for the daily nausea.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:50 am)They most likely came up with 100 mile range buy doubling the 40 miles of the mostly 78% of the driving population plus a margin for error. By doubling the range, it allows for failing to charge every day. IMHO, the market will be bigger than small.
The future will be eye opening. Imagine, when yo travel to a foreign country and all you see is these tiny BEVs. When foreigners travel to the U.S., they’ll see the up-sized BEVs.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:51 am)I had the same problem when I first showed up. Which was very strange considering that women are the minority here. But since then all the other Lauras seem to have vanished.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (10:53 am)You are touching on one of the biggest unknown’s.
What is the gas mileage in CS mode going to be for the Volt?
We have guesses everywhere from a very pessimistic 30 mpg to a very optimistic 60 mpg.
Personally I think it’ll be on the higher side of that range but the honest truth is that we just don’t know yet.
I’m ‘trying’ to be patient but it is a wee bit frustrating!
So my answer to your question is that we can’t answer that question just yet.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:00 am)I would need a range of 250-300 real world miles driving at 80 miles an hour with the air conditioner on and my GPS plugged in. I refill my gas tank when its half full. And it’s even more an issue with a battery, IMHO. Since it’s not like I could bring gas to the car if I run out.
And the quick charging would have to be available a lot of places. Stopping to refuel every 100 miles would be inconvenient, but I would deal with it. But recharge stations would have to be available when I need them.
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:11 am)There are usually a few zip-cars sitting around each location. I’d think they would sit for at least a few hours each day. You can use a smartphone to check their status, rent one, and even unlock the doors. I’m sure they could update the software to show charge status too (sort of like the Volt App). You’re not going to drive 500 miles w/one of these. Its more of a grocery getter. Correct they are not electric now, but they are typically cars w/good MPG. I believe the goal of the company is to help the environment (and make profit).
+4
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:11 am)Here is the problem that I have with most people who talk about BEVs and state that for a two car family, you can have a BEV for one vehicle and a regular or EREV for the second.
What seems to be missing from these arguments is what happens to the family when the normal car needs to be repaired. Not all people get a loaner. Some, myself included, use the second car or have the missus take me to work so that she can have it for the rest of the day.
If you then have to take the kids or do errands, then a BEV is not going to be good for them. You would have to get a rental. Right now, there is just way too much compromising to be done to have a BEV.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:14 am)As GM has gone for nearly a century, Toyota has been driven to emulate GM and become the world leader in the automotive business. Now it is GM looking at Toyota and working to regain its prior position as world leader. The competition will be fierce and the time and world circumstance dictate a major change in the design and function of motor vehicles.
I find it extremely exciting that there are a wide mix of electric vehicles. The U.S. market definitely demands larger vehicles when compared to Europe and other parts of the world. The infrastructure for larger vehicles already exists in the U.S. Large enough parking lots and sufficiently large spaces to park them are examples. Smaller Evs will fix without any problem, although they will look strange next to the larger U.S. type vehicles. A lot of people will go for the smaller EV just for parking convenience, as well as the other reasons given by others. One thing is for sure; they do not comsume as much material to make! They will appeal to conservative minded people. The advent of the Volt EV shows the direction that car designers are moving. Smaller vehicles will be built compared to ICE vehicles of prior years. It’s all whole new era for the automotive industry. As for the U.S. market, foreign manufacturers will strive to give the American his larger sized vehicles but we will all see these tiny EVs in the rest of the world as we travel abroad.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
See for all later when I will have to keep up with all the posts.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:16 am)LauraM;
You have hit the nail squarely on the head.
Short of a few enthusiasts who will use them anyway these issues will stop the BEV from going forward into the mainstream.
Sometimes in the rarefied air of this forum the real goal gets forgotten, reduce the use of petroleum by society at large.
To allow this to happen the car has to be a real tool that people can use without inconvenience.
In my opinion the general public will find BEV’s inconvenient and therefore will pass on them.
The Volt eliminates this problem by having the range extender.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:18 am)I think that you speak for the mass market with this post. For many, this need will be perceived, but for many it will also be real. Nevertheless, when people are voting with their wallets, the difference is moot. Perceived need, without education, is as effective as real need.
Unfortunately, BEVs aren’t quite there yet, though strides are being made, so in that respect, I understand where Bill is coming from. However, and I think that his statement speaks volumes to this, the Volt is the best solution with current technology, and the only electrified solution that meets the needs expressed above at the current time.
I would argue though, in defense of the Prius (credit where credit is due); it is designed as a series/parallel hybrid, not just a parallel design like the Honda IMA. Thus, the more energy dense the battery gets, and the larger the electric motor gets, the more it resembles and is able to perform like a Volt, and the more the lines are blurred. I don’t see Toyota resting on their laurels for long. If the Volt demonstrates a demand for this type of vehicle, I expect Toyota will have the 4th Gen Prius ready to go. I see Gen 2 and Gen 3 Volts fighting it out with Gen 4 and Gen 5 Priuses. The advantage to us, the consumer, is competition and choice. Bring it on!
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:20 am)I’ve never used them, but do think its a neat concept. Definately not for everyone, but there’s a spot for them. I would have liked this in College. Maybe on my next trip I’ll give it a whirl instead of taxis or renting at the airport.
The bike key cards in Spain were only given to citizens and you had to return the bikes to the designated smart racks that were all over the city. This was in Barcelona, which is one of the most bike friendly cities i’ve been in.
On the zip car, I think you have to return it to the spot where you picked it up.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:24 am)OK, This is where I thought you stood on BEV’s, which is basically where i stand, and I’d add in cold Michigan weather. There was another Laura posting on here the other day saying she would buy a Nissan Leaf, so that baffled me.
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:33 am)Very interesting quote.
Toyota and GM need each other and we need them to keep doing what they are doing.
Acknowledging that something your competitor does is admirable causes thinking in an outward rather than closed manner.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:33 am)#48
Yeah, 110 years ago people said that the car would never replace the horse. Or the light bulb the candle. Or steam sails. The list never ends. +1
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:40 am)#73 Muddyroverrob What is the gas mileage going to be in cs mode for the Volt?
Since we do not know the answer to that question yet these are my thoughts. The Cruise gets about 40 mpg with basically the same engine except the Cruise has a turbo with the 1.4l, however I would think the volt version would be tweeked for it’s purpose. I am assuming you would get better mileage with the Cruise since you don’t have a 400+ lb. battery to haul around and I think it is more efficient to drive the wheels directly from a ice then charging a battery and or generating electricity for the main electric drive motor. My guess is that the Volt will get around 38 mpg in cs mode. The Volt erev gives you the all electric feel when driving even in cs mode and will make it easy to convert to all eletric when GM decides to go total electric.
-1
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:41 am)#70
Yeah, it is pretty ugly. +1
I wonder what the Cd is, LOL?
-13
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:43 am)(click to show comment)
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:47 am)#71
I think that you are on to something there. I bet that’s what Carlos is thinking. London? Paris? Rome? Tokyo? They are all obviously much more accustomed to smaller car than we are, so the adjustment will be more natural, IMHO. There are a lot more car markets than just the good old USA. Plus I think that electrics are exempted from, or get a break on, the “congestion fee” in London. This is a concept which is spreading for sure, and may drive BEV acceptance.
+1
-14
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:49 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:50 am)Nice admission . . . GM got it right . . . now try to catch up with your parallel hybrid technology that will soon seem outdated.
-8
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:52 am)If that is the case, then an EV is not for you. But I’d wager that 90+% of your driving really does NOT require such a range.
But go ahead and suffer the gas price increases until you figure it out.
-16
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:54 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:03 pm)I guess the other Lauras haven’t disappeared after all. I would never buy a Leaf. The sheer aesthetic factor would be deterrent enough. I’m generally not very picky when it comes to looks. At least not when it comes to methods of transportation. But that car gives new meaning to the word ugly.
Aside from that, 100 miles isn’t nearly enough. I don’t ever want to be stranded. And it would be a lot worse with a BEV because of the fuel transportation issue.
+5
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:05 pm)Just for the record, and sorry for repeating what I said yesterday, but I don’t really care what anyone from Toyota says.
I would say that Carlos Ghosn has at least as much credibility as Mr. Reinert, and he says the opposite regarding BEVs. As to Toyota gearing up to take on the Volt, bet on it. Hell will freeze over and the devils will ice skate before I buy a Toyota, so 10-88. Bottom line:
LJGTVWOTR!!
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:07 pm)The BEV pict’d above will work perfectly fine for me and my commute. As long as the range is at least 40 miles REAL, i’m good with it. The ICE cars will be our backup/long haul.
I don’t think peeps have range anxiety as it is more recharge inconvenience. We need fast charge stations and to have fast charge stations we need batt packs that can take more than 1C of charge rate.
Lyle, here’s a good question to ask GM batt pack engineers.
At what rate did they test the batt pack charge? .3C? .5C? 1C? 1.5C? 2C?
The main issue on fast charge is that cell mfgr’s rarely ever rate a charge up to 2C and if they do it’s for a minute or so. The new TS Cells now builds yttrium (LiFeYPO4) cells that now have a 3C max charge rate and 5000 cycles.
But here’s the BIG CATCH…..
Even IF the batt packs were able to take in a 3C charge (Volt 3C = 120A), the standardized connector “http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/7479″ has a max of 80A @ 220V. Onboard power electronics also plays a limiting factor.
So, EV’s have been painted in a corner when it comes to fast charging. Tesla is the exception as I don’t think they are using the standardized connector but offering a “coupling” device so they can and they go up to 440V. I think they have a much higher charge rate than the SAE J1772 connector can handle.
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:12 pm)Lots of free ink for Toyota. Yesterday a fuel cell EV. Today a ‘pure’ EV mini. Meanwhile, CTO Reinert denounces EV’s. Today he praises VOLT. Does he know something we don’t? Really nothing more that one reads here everyday. Today there’s real news. Whitacre’s divisive board tactics turning the board against HR by overruling his settled sale of Opel – now has added 2600 more unemployed. GM is closing its Antwerp facility. Antwerp was the one plant not being able to find a chair when Whitacre’s music stopped. As he was forced to placate Germany by pledging not to close any of their in-country plants. Simple eh! Meanwhile Whitacre’s hard nosed heavy-handed dealings with Saab may turn away its last bidder. GM now has totally muddied its golden rep – of course Euro sales are down.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:14 pm)Exactly. People might be willing to put up with the inconvenience if the electric cars were substantially cheaper. Depending on their individual driving habits. But right now, when there’s a substantial premium for the battery? No way.
I’m not saying there won’t be a market for BEVs. But they are nowhere near being ready for the mainstream consumer.
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:18 pm)They actually went up in my estimation. Good is good. It should be recognized. I just hate when some entity tries to characterize something either inaccurately or worse just because of an agenda. I respect people and groups when they state their beliefs and do not try to hide the bias or point of view. The Toyota Prius needs to be recognized for the strengths that it has. All the talk about inadequate infrastructure is something of a smokescreen. It makes sense maybe if everybody drives a Tesla, but that’s not going to happen. Toyota deserves credit for being honest.
+13
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:19 pm)Thank you for the kind words.
Tell you what. Let’s race for pinks.
You drive your blessed Tesla and I will drive the Volt.
The first one to reach 400 miles wins.
Want to race?
How about 1000 miles?
Tesla has a charge time of 30 hours.
Volt has a fillup time of 5 minutes.
Now who has a pinhead for a brain?
+5
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:25 pm)Peace of mind is a real need. Wanting to make sure something doesn’t happen is a real need. Let me put it this way, going by the numbers, most planes won’t ever use their flotation devices. Does that mean they shouldn’t be equipped with them? And most planes wouldn’t be hijacked even if there was no security in the airport. Does that mean we shouldn’t have airport security?
Getting stranded in the wrong place at the wrong time can be very dangerous. Especially in certain areas that I would probably have to drive through. And It’s not a risk I want to take.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:32 pm)I’m growing a bit tired of making this point. But if you say the point is to reduce imported oil etc etc., then for 2 car families the BEV/EREV combination will reduce oil and provide all the convenience needed.
This would especially be true if a 100 mile AER BEV was cheaper than a 40 mile AER EREV as I believe will be the case very soon. I believe that the cost of the additional battery for 60 miles will be less then the cost of the ICE/EXHAUST Extra weight etc.
Having one car with 40 AER and unlimited range and another car with 100 miles AER but only 100 miles range will allow many families to drive a whole lot more miles of AER (WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT) while still having a car for those RARE times when over 100 miles AER is required.
If one of the drivers has a 60 miles commute, thats an extra 5000 miles AER yearly right there. If a trip to Grandmas is 50 miles take the BEV. If going on a vacation take the EREV.
I think this scenario works for EVERY family I can think of (and with 3 kids I know a lot of families).
There are no concessions in this scenario except owning 2 cars that the entire family can fit into. So for instance a family with 4 kids, maybe this doesn’t work because they need a commuter car and a van. But most families don’t have 4 kids.
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:33 pm)But… but … but… I don’wanna be a D-cell!!
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:35 pm)I wouldn’t buy a Nissan either. Wherever possible, I want my dollars to support whatever industry America has left. That means that my car buying decisions are going to be limited to GM and Ford for the foreseeable future.
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:37 pm)Umm…
I humbly disagree…
http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php
But your point that the Volt will charge to full sooner is correct, due to a less capacity.
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:39 pm)I was mostly joking with my earlier comment, but I expect BEVs to use reversible heat pumps for air conditioning and heating. You’d need two to do both at the same time, which I wouldn’t expect – at least for earlier models.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:39 pm)Err, you are really comparing a 2 seat $100k toy for rich people to a car that can actually bring along the kids?
Or are you a troll? I think I know that answer.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:42 pm)That is my ultimate goal. I’m not getting rid of our ICE car because Disneyland is too friggin far. The Volt or any other more than 100 MPC BEV is really just overkill for me. 11 mile round trip? Cmon, a BEV can do that no prob for me. Sure the Volt will but for $40,000.00, that’s not feasable for me anymore.
That is just my scenario though. Each product will have it’s market niche penetration. But it is ultimately up to the customer to make the decision and use the car for what they bought it for.
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:47 pm)Troll.
2 cars totally on the opposit side of any spectrum and they compare them to the Volt…….lol
Troll, gimme somadatshit your drinking bro!!
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:52 pm)Ah, I got the charge time from the wrong place.
http://technologyinfo.wordpress.com/2008/07/07/tesla-roadster-30-hour-charge-time/
However, I stand by my race comment. He would still have to stop and charge while I can just buy some gas and keep going.
I love the Volt. What a great car it will be.
I think I will sleep in it for the first week.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (12:56 pm)I’m assuming these are all the same troll.
1. Tesla.. ahh, i dont want to waste my time talking about a $125K laptop battery project/car.
2. Volt being a “mass polluter”. If you drive less than 40miles/day, you will also have zero emissions
3. Dual climate controls: i think this is standard in most if not all mfgs cars. If Toyota is so advanced in creature comforts, why dont they put a cup holder in their cars?
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:07 pm)Dual climate control is all the windows have a hand crank to roll it up or down!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
/Don’t care for power windows.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:15 pm)Wait. Are you serious? Toyota doesn’t have cup holders in their cars? Damn, I have to get out from underneath my rock.
I assumed all cars had them.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:17 pm)#102:
Well I think I’ve made my thinking pretty clear on this over the months. I’m not even going to buy a Ford, LOL. Careful though, many Ford and GM cars are made in Mexico, or Korea in the case of the Aveo, or God knows where else. The Fusion, just for example is assembled in Mexico. I made the mistake of not checking the US content sticker on our Silverado until I got it home, never dreaming that a SILVERADO wouldn’t be made in the USA. Place of final assembly? Saltillo, Mexico. It’s getting tougher every day.
I thought I read somewhere the other day that the next generation Aveo was going to be built here. Does anyone know it that’s true? What about the Spark? I remember that, back in the days of the BK negotiations with the UAW, one of the “small cars” was supposed to be assembled here, but I don’t know if that is even still operative.
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:21 pm)So did I. Really? No cup holder?
Our cup holder always ends up being a small trash can.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:22 pm)We are not as far apart on this point as it may first appear.
I DO think there are places where a BEV (with current technology) could be practical, temperate tight urban places (California, Florida).
They just don’t make sense here in Canada or the northern states or Northern Europe where the winter cold requires a lot of power to the run the heater and where the cold saps the power of the battery. Further the cold makes the rest of any car less efficent as most moving parts become ‘stiff’ and require more energy to move them. This combination will drastically reduce a BEV’s range to the point where they would be unsafe to travel in. A running out of ‘fuel’ in the cold is a very real life threatening situation.
For about 60% of our driving a Volt will likely run in EV mode.
The rest of the time our travels exceed the realistic range of any BEV excepting the Tesla but it is too small and too expensive for me.
The EREV continues to be the ONLY EV solution that I will consider.
Best Regards
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:25 pm)I don’t understand why they can’t make a cellphone that I don’t have to bother charging at home when I go to bed. It is so annoying remembering to plug in my cell phone every night.
Why can’t I just stop at a gas station on the way to work and have a place there to charge my cell phone. While I’m there I can buy Coffee and Donuts, and use the lovely facilities they have there.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:26 pm)#110
Yup. 4-70 air conditioning, LOL. I’m with you. Old school to the core. +1
I hate to say it but, when I was a kid, there was no AC available in Chevys, and a heater was an option. Don’t need one in SoCal, so why pay the extra $25, right? Plus it doesn’t make you go any faster, hahaha.
I turn on the AC in my S-10 about 6 times a year. If it wasn’t there, I could live without it just fine. If I was trying to stretch my AER, I would leave it off for sure. Plus wear a jacket in the winter. Maybe they could put one of those wire thingies in the windshield to defrost.
KISS, simplicate and add lightness, what ain’t there don’t give you no trouble.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:30 pm)I can’t thank you guys enough for directing me to Firefox. The edit function alone is great. A lot less typos, although a few still sneak through, LOL. Good call. +1 to all.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:31 pm)You know Walter, I would have tended to agree with you, but when you become such a troll, you lose all semblence of respect.
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:31 pm)EXACTLY!!!
+1 for u. I’d give you more but I can’t.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:31 pm)Part of the brilliance of the Volt is the fact that since there is an onboard generator there is much flexibility in how the IC generator and battery operate.
For example if the IC starts at 30% battery level it is possible that full electric motor output is available until, say a 25% battery discharge level. Since you are generally not flooring the car all of the time is is possible this 5% battery usage, more of a storage actually, would mean that performance would never be appreciably degraded for most people.
Or perhaps the Volt could be reconfigured by the owner so that the IC generator turns on at 35%. If performance wasn’t degraded until 25% battery discharge level, at which point no further discharge is permitted to preserve battery life, you’d have 10% battery capacity to act as storage for the IC generator.
The beauty of this is that as battery capacity increases, IC generator size can decrease. So if the Volt eventually has a battery that enables a 120 mile range and the IC engine turns on at 40 miles left, it is conceivable only a 20kW generator would be required for another 100 miles of normal driving with no decrease in performance.
There are so many possibilities for this type of system as battery technology improves.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:34 pm)#115
I dunno man, you should meet my wife. Her cell battery is dead 50% of the time, LOL. She called this AM and said that she has taken to carrying the AC charger in her purse, in addition to the one in her car. Is that like carrying a Honda generator on the roof of your BEV, LOL?
Point well taken though. +1
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:36 pm)But Don, with a Volt that just is NOT a problem. I CAN have my cake and eat it too!
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:41 pm)Wouldn’t it be easier to get a charger for the car?
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:43 pm)You mean you can’t use the Edit Function in IE? I had no idea.
I have been using Firefox since the day it came out. I love it.
It also has the spell checker that you might like. It is not 100% accurate, but it is close enough.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:43 pm)Exactly!
If the Volt was ‘just’ a BEV I wouldn’t come here.
The Volt is the first and only electric car I have ever even mildly considered.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:45 pm)It is just so elegantly simple. The vast majority will get by with less than 40 miles per day. But also the vast majority has a frequent (once a month) need to travel over 200 miles, usually for a family function. The Volt will do both admirably. In the past few years I made 4 round trips to Florida to get to finally see a single space shuttle launch. NO pure electric would handle that. I drove straight through too 25 hours one way. I think the Volt could handle that. The Tesla, as nice as it is, just could not begin to do that. Yes, for vacation style trips renting another vehicle is an option. Maybe renting a trailer with a genset is also an option for a BEV, but not for most, certainly not soon.
No sir, the Volt is a real winner.
LJGTVWOTR
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:45 pm)Cool idea, really long extension cord and a spool mounted on the back of the car – Good Bye Range Anxiety! Sorry you meant a charger for the cell phone. – me bad, LOL
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:50 pm)I’ve been reading about the decimation of American manufacturing. Information is actually pretty hard to find. There’s relatively little written about this. The US government doesn’t even publish data on some very relevant statistics.
And it’s very very depressing. Basically, even CEO’s who don’t necessarily want to move manufacturing elsewhere are being forced to if they want to stay in business. Even the ones that have the technological edge over their competitors. And, as a result, we’re going to lose any GDP growth due to the spillover effects of innovation. Which is terrifying.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:52 pm)A company in Ottawa did some cold weather studies with BEVs with Environement Canada, and found that a properly designed battery pack could have next to no performance degradation at low temperature. The battery pack in the Volt is very well conditioned, and there is no reason why a BEV pack couldn’t be as well. The effect on range due to cold was negligible and the biggest effect ended up being the type of bearings in the motor. If proper bearings were used, that constraint went away as well.
Heating the interior does take energy, and would subtract from range. This effect on range can be mitigated to an extent by preheating the interior (like BMW is proposing) as well as insulating the passenger cabin.
BEVs can work in Canada. Even in the winter. There is an active EV enthusiast population up here, and people who successfully drive EVs all year round.
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:55 pm)No it wont. At least not comfortably. If each person has a piece of luggage with clothes for 4 days? Won’t happen in the Volt. If you travel with women you definitely will not be comfortable with all the crap they bring (No offense LauraM). Blow drier, makeup bag, bag for personals and sh|t like that. Don’t forget snacks on the road.
I don’t care what anybody says, a 4 day trip on a long haul with 4 peeps aint gonna be comfortable in the Volt and all you’ll hear is “we shoulda bought a bigger car”….
Don’t forget on the way back with some more sh|t you bought, you need to bring back too.
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:55 pm)You take that risk every time you drive a car. There are hundreds if not thousands of single failure points to an ICE car and an EREV. The argument that a BEV with a known range and a gauge showing the driver how much energy is available and approximate range is left is an “unacceptable risk” doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. The BEV will have significantly fewer single failure points outside of the driver’s control or potential awareness, so it should actually be significantly safer in this regard. Yes, the BEV’s range is limited and that is a real issue but the fear and “anxiety” thing is way overblown IMO. If the range works for one’s lifestyle, it should consider. If it doesn’t, then it’s not a viable option.
-8
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:55 pm)BEV are the mass car market ! Gas 2.0 ist also caled ! The question is why in 1995 EV 1 had 100 miles range in 2010 Volt has only 40.Also why in 2003 Toyota RAV EV has 130 miles range on NiMH battery pack and in 2010 Toyota Prius has only 30 miles or so !
I think the big OIL LOBY is still here ang there is no need for a better battery because it is better tha WE CONSUME OIL then SOLAR POWER !!! ISNT IT !??
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:55 pm)http://www.cleanskies.com/videos/detroit-auto-show-its-electric
Detroit Auto Show: It’s Electric
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (1:56 pm)Absolutely the same exact thing for me. And I can tell you that I have a real fascination with the Volt. Some might call it a love affair.
The affair is a bit one side for now, but hopefully she’ll be sleeping at my house in no time. ,)
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:05 pm)Thanks, Constantin.
Nice video.
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:06 pm)I respectfully suggest we agree to disagree.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:06 pm)At the Tesla area of the Detroit show, a Tesla rep mentioned that a very fast charge was possible (I don’t remember the time, but it was pretty short), but the problem was “the charger costs as much as the car.” I’d also guess that such a charger might cause “infrastructure problems”.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:10 pm)I’ve used Internet explorer, Firefox, Safari, and whatever the browser is on my Android cell phone. I depends on where I am, and what I’m posting on. And I didn’t even notice the difference until the guys here pointed it out. I now make a concerted effort to use Firefox. So I would also like to thank everyone for the advice.
(Of course, I still make typos. Lots of them. The worst part is when I reread my post, and I realize that it says something I didn’t mean to say…)
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:15 pm)Yeah, I figured the charger would cost big $$$.
As for infrastructure, just be like “Glade” and “plug it in….plug it in….”
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:18 pm)The risk of failure is a lot greater if you’re willing to push the limits. Period. In an ICE or a BEV. Or even an EREV.
If you’re in a BEV with a 100 mile range, and you drive 80 miles on a regular basis before recharging, you’re a lot more likely to forget or have to take an unexpected detour than if you normally recharge at 50 miles. That’s why I want the extra margin. Whether I actually use it on on a regular basis is besides the point.
I can have that margin a lot more easily with an EREV or an ICE than with a BEV. At least with today’s technology.
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:18 pm)I would NEVER claim the Volt as being adequate to carry 4 people even for a 1 day trip. Yes, the big American vehicle still has a place. And yes, I will suggest that for a trip to Disney World with more than 3 people you might want to rent a mini-van or whatever.
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:24 pm)I pack relatively light. But you should see the amount of luggage my mom packs. She used to actually bring the two extra bags you were allowed on international flights. Even if we were only gone for a week!
Even with only two people, doing a road trip with the Volt’s not going to be easy given the limited cargo space. I’ll manage, but it’s definitely not my first choice.
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:38 pm)Fair enough. I was just adding some interesting results to the discussion. I know there are people here in the great white north that drive EVs. In winter. We can disagree all we want, respectfully, but them’s the facts.
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:41 pm)#8.
The only problem, I have with battery exchange, is you never know what condition the battery is in when you swap your, brand new battery, for the one that was use by any abusive user. I.e, a driver that only changes when it’s almost or completely dead (causing the battery’s life to be shorten). One who travels on bad roads, and scraps the bottom, or for some teenager’s battery which was used for hot rod’n on a daily basis .
Do you really want to do that, and who handles the warrantee for a battery that’s swapped. I can see GM, going, go back to the battery swap shop. The shop, says “It’s a GM battery, call them…” and there you are with a bad $”unknown replacement cost” battery. That the swap shop will not take because it’s no longer holds a charge. So, now who you gonna call “Battery Busters” … yea
I’m sure you have purchased that new grill, then went to the store to get fuel. But they only swap tanks, you come back home with a rusty tank, that was spray painted to look good but you know it beat the .. .
I think battery exchange, just will not work for me. But to each there own.
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:43 pm)I don’t cuncur.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:48 pm)@ kgurnsey
The Prius has always been a series/parallel hybrid. So are many others including the GM 2-modes. They didnt change the terminology as an indication of their intention to compete with the Volt. It i what it is.
Although I agree it appears to be Toyota’s plan to leverage their existing hybrid customer base to attempt to compete with the Volt in the form of the PHEV10 plug-in version of the Prius. The facts are they wont be able to complete “directly” with only 10 miles of AER as currently planned/expected.
Although I’m sure the loyal Toyota faithful will follow…
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (2:58 pm)The Volt most of us are waiting for is “first generation.” GM dares not threaten it’s first gen automotive battery pack in any way. So, we get a pack which is only half used. Once that 50% is depleted, we get as small a buffer range as possible between what the driver needs and what the generator supplies: requiring a fairly large engine.
There is an assumption here that the only real gains to be made in batteries is cost and size; but cycle life will have profound effects on both BEVs and EREVs if it can be increased as well.
A battery which can support a greater number of cycles might be able to use more than 50% of it’s capacity without suffering premature failure. A more advanced battery might be cheaper, smaller and provide a greater range per charge than it’s same-capacity predecessor, simply because more of it can be used.
In the area of trailer, rooftop or smaller built-in engines, a battery able to support a larger number of cycles allows for a buffer which is much wider between what the driver needs and what the genset can supply; more of the difference can come from the battery and be recovered later when load is lower, or during braking. This would allow an engine’s size to drop, with it’s output more closely approaching the average power requirement of the car.
We’ll have to wait for substantially better batteries before small supplemental engines of any kind can be used. When that happens, mileage for CS mode in an EREV will reach stratospheric levels, and BEV trailers will become feasible.
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:02 pm)Yep, I was aware of that, but it’s a good point. My surprise was that they were openly contrasting the design against serial and parallel designs on the website, advertising themselves against a serial design, and touting it as the best of both. I hadn’t seen that before, and since there is no serial hybrid on the market, I can only assume that it’s an attempt to maintain their customer base ahead of the Volt launch. If a plug-in Prius could match the AER and EV speed of the Volt, the series/parallel design could actually be more efficient than a pure series design. It could be the line up for a royal rumble when the next gens of both cars hit the blacktop.
Personally I prefer the series design because it’s more modular, depending on which petroleum replacement technology takes hold. Fuel cell? No problem, drop one in. Bio-diesel? No problem, drop one in. Ethanol/Butanol? No problem, drop one in. BEV? No problem, drop one in. This is the advantage of the Voltec design going forward.
It’s neat to see the big players maneuvering and staking their claim in uncharted waters.
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:06 pm)Breaking news– there was a small fire at the Detroit auto show. Smoke appeared above the Audi display area. Quickly put out. People will probably be allowed back in shortly.
-1
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:06 pm)@ kgurnsey
Oh and gurnsey, your interpretation of the cold weather research is just plain flawed. Sure, if you INSULATE the battery from the cold (insulated housing,garage etc) AND precondition it so it’s able to warm up to a more sutable temperature prior to use then OF COURSE it’s not an issue. That’s because the battery temperature has not been lowered to ambient temperature. But if/when it does? You’re done.
Chemistry is chemistry and ANY battery technology is going to experience SIGNIFICANT drops in usable capacity anytime it’s colder than -18C (0F) If there’s engineers in Canada that say anything otherwise, someone should take their rings away!
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:10 pm)As you well know, in life we need to distinguish between what we really need and what we merely want. That helps to decide what we will really pay for and what we will only continue to wish for.
When I was much younger (and not nearly as smart as you are now) I tried to distinguish between the two. Sometimes I paid too much, which was a waste because I bought things that I didn’t need or soon tired of. Sometimes I paid too little, which was a waste because I bought things that didn’t work well enough to meet my needs.
Now I do not have that problem. It is either because I have wisdom, or that next year I will be out of the demographic national advertisers crave, which I suppose indicates I will stop making purchases.
Wheather I’m too lame to keep up with the hipsters or too wise to fall for the hucksters, if my avarage trip length is 32 miles and I want a 1000 miles of range…just sayin.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:12 pm)The discussion of batteries in my last comment has important ramifications for the plug-in Prius.
We know that Li/Ion has to be handled carefully in order to make best use of it’s limited number of cycles. Part of this is having enough cells in series/paralell configuration such that no single cell is discharged at a high rate. Another part is the management of total cycles per expected vehicle lifetime.
What will be the effect, do you think, of hammering a smaller pack harder, as would be the case with the Plug in Prius? If I have only 5 or 10 miles of electric range, I’ll be pluggin in anywhere I can. When I step on the brake to regenerate (or the accelarator to speed up) will I not be causing the reduced number of cells in the Prius’s pack to charge or discharge at a higher rate?
When Toyota initially rejected Li/Ion in automobiles, perhaps they were correct, for the demands of Hybrid Synergy Drive. Could be they’ve dealt themselves more of a screwball with their decision turnaround than we think.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:12 pm)Of course battery chemistry is affected by cold. Duh. As an engineer myself, I’m vividly aware of this basic fact. But you don’t just hang your batteries off the sides of the car. They are designed into a pack. The point is, if the pack is designed properly, yes insulated and conditioned, then the issue of range degridation can be engineered around.
My further comment was to the effect that if the car itself were designed in such a way, you could mitigate the energy need for conditioning the interior as well, thus mitigating the demand on the battery pack and minimizing the effect on range.
Cars are designed and engineered. How you design and engineer them has an impact on how they perform.
I’ll keep my ring firmly planted around my finger, thanks.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:14 pm)I understand and respect your position and more ‘power’ to you!
I still will only consider the Volt WITH the range extender in the EV world.
Otherwise maybe it’ll be a Ford Fusion or Audi / VW diesel. Sadly these are currently only FWD.
Whoever comes up with a truly efficient AWD first will be very high up in the running.
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:18 pm)Once that point is reached I’m sure that all the OEM’s will be happy to step forward and say they are our V2Grid saviors regardless of customer participation or acceptance.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:26 pm)This line of discussion interests me, because I have often imagined that vehicles could use battery chemistries which operate at higher than common ambient temperatures (variants of Sodium Sulfur batteries). Such batteries would have to be handled the same way in all climates as Li/Ion and other types are handled in very cold climates: insulated, with temperature carefully regulated.
I believe that any electric car operating outside it’s batteries’ intended temperature range will need a supplemental, on-road source of heat.
Ceramatec is working on a Sodium Sulfur battery which operates at the unheard-of low temperature (for this kind of battery), of 200 degrees fahrenheit.
http://solar.coolerplanet.com/News/8070901-ceramatec-develops-24-hour-solar-energy-storage-battery.aspxl
This is very close to the running temperature of an internal combustion engine. It is possible to imagine a probably larger vehicle using such a system to great advantage. The engine in this case conditions the battery more than replacing it’s output, but otherwise it seems like a workable EREV concept (are you listening, GMC?)
For a Li/Ion powered car in sub-zero temperatures, perhaps an engine could be sized mainly for battery conditioning (as a ready source of heat) and thus be quite small.
BY THE WAY, I just googled Ceramatec (which I haven’t done recently), and found that they are now also working on different solid-electrolyte chemistries which include Lithium (and they aren’t saying much more than this):
http://www.ceramatec.com/technology/ceramic-solid-state-ionic-technologies/advanced-energy-storage/solid-electrolyte-batteries.php
Didn’t we hear something about a future Volt battery in the works which used a solid electrolyte?
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:29 pm)I personally can’t live with a 100-mile range electric car.
Sure, I can use it for my 5-minute drive to work every day (where 95% of its capacity would be wasted every day), but when I make a trip out to the big city 60 miles away every few weeks, I’d rather not drive my truck to the big city when gas is about $4 per gallon (which is in Canada right now after conversion from liters and my Canadian dollar).
And if I did want to drive my electric car, I’m not willing to go looking for one of a handful of charging stations which is 20 blocks away from where I’m trying to go.
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:31 pm)Looks like Toyota is seeing a true competitor. I think EREV’s will always be the solution. Imagine a Volt with 100 miles AER, 99% of the time you’ll never need a drop of gas, even then you will still want to go across the state or some other long trip. Long as you have that generator you can go any where you want, its the perfect fit.
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:31 pm)If Mr. Fusion is not available you could tap into the power source for your electric racecar. WhoooooooooHoooooooo!
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:35 pm)“Always” is a long time. Things change, technology advances. Who knows where we will be in 20 – 50 years.
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:37 pm)Ugh. You’re right, of course.
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:44 pm)We aren’t that far off. For me, it will be a RWD, 2-seat, EREV roadster. Voltec Solstice! Do you hear me GM?!? Plllllleease!
Anywho, my point was simply that it can be done, and is even being done for the Volt’s battery pack. GM has cold weather tested the Volt, as we know, and has that whole thing covered. The reduction in range is likely due more to the heating requirements of the interior cabin than any effect of the cold on the battery pack. I would seriously consider taking the headliner down in my Volt and putting some insulation up there and in the doors. That would cut the loss of heat from the cabin some and help maintain range in the winter.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:53 pm)It seems clear that a separate standard (on a separate connector) needs to be developed ASAP, before very many EVs get on the road. This would be a connector specifically for using outboard electronics at very high power levels to charge a pack directly, without going through the car’s electronics (but communication with the car’s computer would probably still be needed).
The existing 7479 standard would continue to be intended for driver (human) use, the new standard intended only for professional use (probably accessed from underneath the car by some kind of simple robot, for safety; perhaps at two widely separated points to complete the circuit).
No fast-charge infrastructure currently exists, but one won’t likely develop until there is an industry-wide connector (as has been the case with the 7479 connector for plug-ins as we imagine them today).
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:56 pm)I still think they should come out with an EREV Pickem up truck. Colorado?
Or “mini-ize” the pack and genset to fit in an Aveo. Maybe use a small 500cc motorcycle engine for the genset.
Still very curious on the whatever BEV verision they said they would have.
Jan 21st, 2010 (3:59 pm)I see your point. And it’s a shame too, because although every place you go may or may not be conveniently near gasoline it will definitly have electrical service.
For every one that wants to debate the post Volt future: Here is some fuel for the fire; ( http://www.akerwade.com/v.php?pg=70 )
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:07 pm)A couple of years ago, they installed a defibrillator near my office. So far, no one’s actually had to use it. But I still think it was a good idea. And I even if they have to replace it ten years from now after no one used it, I still don’t think that it was a waste of money.
I understand that the peace of mind bought by keeping half the battery in reserve all the time is more expensive. But that doesn’t mean that it’s not worth it to me. Or that I’ll regret buying more battery than I actually use. Even if I’ve never come close to using the actual full range.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:13 pm)#128
We live near the twin ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, together the largest port complex in the U.S. Aside from their disastrous local and regional environmental impacts, the are poster children for what you are describing.
The main imports are manufactured goods from Asia, cars, and oil. The main exports are waste paper, scrap metal, recyclable plastics, and agricultural products, chiefly hay pellets (I am not making this up).
In the great days of the European empires, I thought that the idea was that the 1st world country imported raw materials from its 3rd world colonies, and then used them as markets for its manufactured goods. I wonder what that makes us?
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:19 pm)Decadent.
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:19 pm)Great link. Obviously someone is thinking down these lines. I had a moment of (facepalm) “why didn’t I think of that” when I read that the buffer battery used by a quick-charge station could act as V2G grid support, sparing the poor car owners’ batteries from that task. Possibly the utility would have a stake in helping to provide such stations only for the peak load cushion where they’re installed (at least in the beginning, before EVs start lining up at the “pumps”).
In fact, wouldn’t the Power Company be the operator of such a station? They need the large batteries for V2G, and it enables EV charging too.
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:20 pm)#138
Why should you be different from everybody else, hahaha? Misery loves company. +1
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:25 pm)Yes, every day I am bummed about the direction of our country.
Used to be, people would complain when we lost some manufacturing job overseas, but as long as unemployment was in a reasonable area, as a country we all benefited from cheaper goods etc.
But today is completely different. Not only is our government not doing anything about it, but they are making it worse and they are misleading us. Unemployment is much worse than stated. We have increasing Trade and Budget deficits. Not only is employement going down but high paying jobs are being lost which means lower tax revenues, which drives up deficits more.
We import energy, we export jobs. Our economy is a house of cards and they just keep putting more layers of cards until it will eventually collapse.
Certainly if we can stop importing energy and build domestic cars like the volt that would help create job, and keep money in the country to keep more jobs.
But we also have this new problem where companies keep replacing domestic workers with workers overseas. And it isn’t just call centers but programming, engineering etc.
We are in big trouble in this country.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:25 pm)If I could afford to get a Tesla Roadster I would sleep in it also. Then I would head to my chiropractors office and proceed to pay for his kids college education. Plus grad school.
Sorry I’m digressing, for a minute I thought this website was called, Observations of markets and opportunities for $110,000.00 dollar electric supercars
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:27 pm)In fact, with micro wind and solar power available, charging station operators could provide generation capacity as well. That capacity could be bi-directional, charging thier buffer batteries on site, and providing grid power to offset peak loads. It’s an elegant solution, and adds to the distributed power grid, making the need for large central power generation a little less.
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:30 pm)Obviously, I didn’t mean V2G (“Vehicle to Grid”) in a literal sense, but some kind of battery-based grid-storage (you know, that thing I always go on about
).
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:33 pm)#159
Don’t laugh too hard. In this week’s Autoweek (page
there is an article about some tuner show in Tokyo. They show a photo of an Insight done up as a race car. They say that Honda is considering starting a “one make” racing series for Insights. If they can try the so-called “KERS” systems in F1, why not?
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:33 pm)I could certainly see something like that being done out on the highway somewhere; you’d see a string of windmills in the distance, look down at your charge indicator and think, “hmm. Better stop to top up.” Perhaps the blue sign for gas stations at the next exit would include a lightning-bolt symbol inside a rectangle (
).
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:34 pm)Is it true when they say, every time you feel the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, some entrepreneur just got unbelievably rich
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:36 pm)______________________________________________________
Will Toyota go Voltec?
I agree with Toyota’s Mr. Bill Reinert that BEVs (100% electric fueled) are not today practical for the vast majority of Americans. Yes, BEVs with 50-200 mile range will be appealing to some early adopters. But those early adopters are a small minority and unable on their own to gain and sustain the critical mass necessary to carry an Electric Car Revolution. It will require an Electric Car Revolution to generate the momentum required to deliver the battery technology necessary to make BEVs (100% electric fueled) appealing for the average consumer. That chicken vs. egg dilemma is why BEVs have a long history of failing to break out of being a niche category.
The Voltec Platform addresses the BEV chicken vs. egg dilemma.
The Voltec Platform architecture pragmatically addresses the distance limitations of today’s battery technology therefore appealing to a wider consumer base. The Chevy Volt allows an average consumer (like me) to drive 80% of the time gas free with the option to use E85 gas for that 20% of times I need to drive further.
The Voltec Platform is also inherently architected to take advantage of future incremental advances in battery technology which means the Voltec Platform is not a dead-end development track; unlike the series Prius Plug-In architecture.
A competitive threat to GM’s Voltec Platform would be for Toyota to make a strategic shift away from Toyota’s longstanding anti Plug-In and anti serial hybrid stance and instead develop a strong (40+miles AER) serial Plug-In car. By definition, such a car is not the announced 2010 Prius Plug-In.
Toyota is a proud and stubborn company. Toyota is also a smart and successful company. I believe Toyota (as perhaps hinted in Lyle’s above article) is coming around to embrace the Voltec Platform.
______________________________________________________
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:39 pm)Yeah, I largely agree that we’re not ready for pure BEV yet. Or, more specifically, they’re not ready for us, yet. The batteries just aren’t satisfactory to be the only power source, yet. Will they eventually be ready? I think so. But in the meantime, we can still take advantage of as much as the batteries CAN do, now. Which is quite a lot. To that end, the Volt is a great solution. I’m glad Bill acknowledged that. It lends credibility to what he’s saying, which I think is not spin but a pretty realistic analysis. In all fairness, I’ll throw Bill a bone and say that a plug in Prius is not really a bad solution, either. And in even more fairness, the current Prius has been pretty effective as well. If the goal is to eventually replace oil with electricity, the hybrid was a necessary step in that direction and I’m glad some company did something successful in that direction. It has paved the path for the EREV Volt and that will pave the path for the BEV.
The hybrid has had it’s decade long run, now. Time to move on to EREV for maybe another decade. After that maybe the BEV will finally come into its own, too.
And then after that, I want one of these electric personal planes NASA is developing
:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=nasa-one-man-stealth-plane
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:44 pm)I expect that Toyota is watching the Volt very closely indeed. As discussed earlier, the Prius is actually a serial/parallel hybrid, so it’s a bit closer to the Volt than some people expect. From Gen 2 to Gen 3 we saw an increase in the electric motor power, electric only speed, and AER. The Gen three Plug-in Prius won’t be a fair competitor to the Volt technically, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see a Gen 4 Plug-in Prius with a further beefed up electric motor and an improved AER. Such a beast would have the Volt directly in it’s crosshairs.
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:45 pm)Automakers, with their dozens of concepts, have barely scaped the surface of all the electric drive configurations possible. A rental EV-40 vehicle with city specs for speed will work fine for some folks some of the time, but not for others. The same is true for an ER-85-EV-15 natural gas or biodiesel Voltec vehicle. The market has plenty of room for both, once folks get to feel that max torque at 0 rpm and instant, smooth, linear acceleration.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:49 pm)This was entertaining/interesting
How Americans came to have cup holders in their cars
http://www.slate.com/id/2096958/
Now how do i get the cup holder on my computer to slide out again?
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:50 pm)______________________________________________________
Typo in my long winded #178 CDAVIS post:
“…the series Prius Plug-In architecture.” should read “…the parallel Prius Plug-In architecture.”
______________________________________________________
Jan 21st, 2010 (4:51 pm)In other news….
For all you windows users and from an IT guy…
“Microsoft Security Bulletin MS10-002 – Critical”
Zero Day Patch Notification (level 2)
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS10-002.mspx
Just a friendly alert.
Jan 21st, 2010 (5:04 pm)Just keep hitting Alt + F4, Alt + F4, Alt + F4
hehehe….
/jus kidding, don’t do that.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (5:17 pm)While those Mexican plants employ mostly Mexican workers to assemble the cars, a lot of the $ still makes it way back to the US. Much of the plant equipment/automation was sourced by American OEMs. Which snowballs into more work/$ kept in the US.
Something to look at is what companies/manufacturers each auto companies spec for their plant equipment. Every piece of equipment i’ve designed for a GM/Ford/Chysler plant has had a mix of mostly US content, but also a large portion foreign content. Chylser became more German when Daimler took over. GM became more global when they tried to commonize all of their supliers globally. (The NACCL, North Amercian Common Components spec became the Global spec GCCL, which allowed a lot more foreign manfacturers). Ford is mostly US parts with some foreign content. There is also some variation plant to plant within the same company.
On the flip side, equipment i’ve designed for Asian carmaker plants, nearly 100% of the components had to come for other Asian companies. Every item is spec’d out, no deviation.
These are just my personal experiences, but I definately see this trend in the auto industry. So, just because your car is assembled in Mexico or Cananda, (or even Korea), its not a total lost cause for America’s GDP. In fact, the more automated the plants become, the better it is for our workforce.
Jan 21st, 2010 (5:26 pm)Their eyebrows caught on fire?
Jan 21st, 2010 (5:40 pm)So this is Toyota trying to torpedo NISSAN!!!!
Sounds like technology envy to me!
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (5:40 pm)Toyota recalling 2.3 million more cars.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/21/autos/toyota_recall/index.htm
Consumer: “But I thought Toyotas NEVER had problems…..”
Consumer Reports: “Please! Look here at the light….”
PFFFFT!!!!!
Consumer: “Of course, EVERYONE knows Toyotas are trouble free……!”
** Please excuse my digression, I feel better now…..It wont happen again. The snarky one gets loose from the cage once in a while.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (5:44 pm)#186
I ran around the other day trying to find some U.S. made battery chargers to replace the cheap Chinese ones we had which fail after about a year. And no warranty unless you buy the “extended warranty” at time of purchase. The best I could come up with were some Sears Die Hards made in, no prize for guessing, Mexico, with a 3 year warranty.
I brought them back to the shop and was sort of half apologizing when one of my guys said “Well, Mexico is closer to home than China.”
I hear everything you are saying, and it does make me feel a little better, but a SILVERADO? Sheeesh.
-1
Jan 21st, 2010 (5:51 pm)#189
Doesn’t sound very snarky to me. Very polite and objective I would say. +1
Hit ‘em a little harder next time if you want. I doubt if too many people here would complain. Except for a few of our beloved bridge dwellers, of course.
“Maybe there is a little justice in the world.” and “Serves the bums right.” come to my mind, but I could get a lot more snarky if I thought about it for a minute. “Holier than thou” and “Goes around comes around” fit in there somewhere too, LOL.
Jan 21st, 2010 (5:51 pm)On-topic bottom line:
I think BEVs may initially have a larger market share than most of us here currently believe, but not as large a market as their makers expect. Real world experience with these early cars will condition BEV sales (for good or ill) for the next 5 – 10 years, regardless of any follow-on improvements, with the sole exception of cost.
If the first BEVs make a good impression, and even a relatively short-range BEV becomes cheap enough (including battery), it could well become the most-purchased 2nd or 3rd car. Even at that, don’t look for such a car anytime soon, as battery costs will have to drop precipitously.
If experiences with the first BEVs are poor, we will likely wait until much higher ranges and quick charging stations before BEV sales have appreciable impact.
As a wild card, a new kind of EV may appear to ‘split the difference,’ one with a very small engine to augment rather than replace battery output (“AREV”). You could think of it as a BEV with a cold-weather booster, or a poor-man’s EREV (don’t ‘put your foot in it’ too much, or you’ll be walking). As noted above, this will require better batteries than we now have, in order to do properly.
Jan 21st, 2010 (5:56 pm)Not mentioned but aren’t those cars “Drive by wire”? I recall seeing somethin like that on this same issue. I’m not a big fan of “drive by wire” although all of the fighter jets are “fly by wire”. They get paid to do that.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:07 pm)Since we are OT, this was my “Sheesh” moment. I was hosting a bunch of Japanese businessmen while in Pennysylvania. They really love old Americana & Amish products. So I took them to one of the many Amish town stores. They were buying all kinds of things, including a belt. I examined the belt one of the men bought and (i’m not kidding) there was a very small, gold sticker on the back that said made in China. The irony was overwhelming.
+2
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:11 pm)Thanks a pantload, Captain; I went to run the automatic updates on my XP and it upgraded me to IE8. Now, I can’t hit “refresh” on this site without a massive crash.
Result: Yet another download for Firefox.
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:14 pm)I think the Toyota guys assessment is honest. The Volt really is a great idea in this transitional time when electric cars are desired but batteries are simply not ready to replace the gas tank (too expensive, too heavy, and not enough energy storage). The Volt is the ideal compromise (in theory).
On another subject, I will rant about the US Govts. causing problems with overly aggressive safety standards. This came to mind in a note I just read about the new honda sporty hybrid model CRX. It is a hybrid with all of the latest bells and whistles but will not beat the mileage of the standard gasoline Honda CRX from the 1980s. The note said the CRX would get 51 mpg on todays standard the the hybrid CRZ gets in the 40s.
-1
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:25 pm)A couple hundred thousand people within 10 miles of where I live will have no problem commuting and doing errands with a 40 mile range.
I would be OK with a electric only GMC Granite utility vehicle with a 50 mile range.
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:29 pm)How about a GMC Granite EREV with a 50-mile AER? Now that would be impressive!
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:29 pm)Sorry man, I didn’t mean you to do a full MS update, just the patch.
Sorry
+3
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:30 pm)Mexico is much better than China. Even if they none of the money made it’s way back to the US. For one thing, they don’t practice import restrictions. Well, they do. Everyone does to some extent. But nothing like China. Or even Japan. They buy US made goods. So trade with Mexico is not a one way street. Mexico doesn’t steal our intellectual property. And they don’t deliberately create a trade surplus with a mercantalist trade policy.
Second, a stronger richer Mexico is definitely in the United State’s best interest. Economically. Politically. And even culturally. While I believe that the US benefits from immigration, tons of cheap desperate uneducated workers flooding our borders is not a good thing for our already decimated middle class.
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:35 pm)http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/upgrade.html?from=getfirefox
FireFox is the answer….
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:41 pm)This is why I update rarely.
PLEASE someone tell me that Microsh|t has nothing whatever to do with the Volt!!!
(PS: Don’t sweat it. I’m sure I’ll like Firefox better; I had it at work and had always been meaning to download at home).
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:41 pm)Yeah, but IE is used in many embedded features and uses the local sys OS Internet options. Many times dialog boxes are IE windows AND MS Outlook/Express uses IE as an embedded shell to view HTML email and there lies in the problem.
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:43 pm)Shhh….
Don’t tell anyone here, we’re a MS / IE shop and I use FireFox or Chrome.
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:51 pm)It’s not just about where the money goes anymore. Although I bought a Motorola Droid rather than the HTC one for just that reason. It’s the incentives that other countries give our manufacturers to locate their manufacturing in their countries. They run the gamut from cheaper labor, to no interest loans, to few if any environmental (or other) restrictions, to subsidized imputs (like energy and steel), to outright grants, to increased access to their otherwise protected markets. As a result, any manufacturer that chooses to manufacture here has a major competitive disadvantage.
It’s at the point, where any new American product is going to be built overseas to begin with. There will be very little, if any, new American manufacturing. Look at the apple iphone. Look at the Amazon kindle. The Microsoft xbox. Or even the entire optoelectronics industry! And, in the long run, the engineering and R&D jobs follow since it’s a lot easier to innovate when you’re physically closer to the manufacturing.
Jan 21st, 2010 (6:58 pm)If that hadn’t been in Scientific American I would have called BS.
I never dreamed that an electric VTOL was even possible (but I bet it will be expensive, if they’re trying to interest the military).
As batteries improve, it does look as though someone might retrofit an electric drive to something like an old Cessna (with solar arrays on the wingtops to recharge it when it’s tied down; perhaps the perfect “weekend plane”).
Jan 21st, 2010 (7:23 pm)#201
I agree on all counts. +1 Still, I would have been a lot happier if the truck had been assembled in Detroit. You can bet that I will be studying those content stickers as a prime factor in future buying decisions.
Jan 21st, 2010 (7:30 pm)What I’m getting at is not all parking lots have convenient electrical outlets. Or I can’t imagine parking on the street, asking someone if I can plug in my car at their house and dangle an extension cord across the sidewalk.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (7:31 pm)My Prius has multiple cup holders. They will fold up and disappear. I fold them closed when I drive. My wife unfolds them. I have not bothered to count them. In addition to the fancy high mpg graphic, the Prius a gas gage. Also a digital speedometer that sits off of the divers centerline. No tach or water temperature to be found anywhere. A there is a small icon that will show 50wh regenerated on the mpg graph, also there is is a bar graph that will show the state of charge of the battery and some odd power flow diagram. However that is it.
With two electric motors and an ICE I would expect three tachometers. two amps gages and a voltage readout.
Jan 21st, 2010 (7:55 pm)That isn’t right either.
Prius is a SPLIT hybrid, not a PARALLEL.
+1
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:25 pm)It’s at the point where I’ve stopped shopping at Trader Joes and Food Emporium (our local version of A&P.). Which is ridiculous when you think about it. But I’m feeling desperate.
What’s happening here is the logical outcome of decades of unbalanced trade agreements where the government subordinated our domestic economic interests to foreign policy and winning the cold war. And we kept it up even after the cold war was over. (I think our government officials liked the power involved in running the most powerful country in the world. No matter the long run costs to the American people.)
Trade really can be win win. Improved economies of scale and increased specialization really does make everyone better off. Interactions between different cultures always increases innovation. That’s why trade has made so many countries wealthy throughout history. From ancient Greece to Constantinople. (Now Istanbul.) And even Rome. But to be win win, trade has to go both ways.
Jan 21st, 2010 (8:54 pm)Thanks for clarifying
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:07 pm)I agree completely and that’s the absolute ironic shame of it. So close but so far away. It’s as though C. Columbus sailed to within a hundred yards outside of sighting Boston Harbor and said, aw the heck with it, lets just go home.
Jan 21st, 2010 (9:23 pm)An interesting site about chargers:
http://www.coulombtech.com/
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 21st, 2010 (11:51 pm)_____________________________________________________
#211 john1701a said:
“Prius is a SPLIT hybrid, not a PARALLEL.”
————–
John,
FYI…
“Power-split hybrid or series-parallel hybrid are parallel hybrids…”
Source / Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain
______________________________________________________
Jan 22nd, 2010 (12:13 am)You cannot just dump hybrids like Prius into the same category as those like Insight.
They are fundamentally different in both component & operation.
+1
Jan 22nd, 2010 (12:57 am)______________________________________________________
#36 kgurnsey said:
“I recently was looking at the Prius on the Toyota Canada website, and they officially list it as a series/parallel hybrid, in direct contrast with a series hybrid (Volt) and a parallel hybrid (Insight). They are billing it as the best of both worlds. Sounds to me like they are ramping up to take on the Volt. They may market the plug-in prius as having the advantages of both a serial and parallel design, in an attempt to trump the Volt.”
————-
Kgurnsey,
The GM Voltec series architecture will in my opinion win out over the very complicated (bunch of more mechanical moving parts) series/parallel (2-mode) Prius architecture. The Toyota marketing claim of series/parallel (2-mode) being best of both worlds looks good on paper and makes for a good sound-bite but in practice it is a goofy setup that will compromise ride performance and require the gas IC being on for normal highway driving.
______________________________________________________
-2
Jan 22nd, 2010 (1:06 am)No matter what. I will buy a Tesla Model S.
Jan 22nd, 2010 (1:07 am)Anyone have information as to when GM Volt and Nissan Leaf will start taking deposits? These models are reportedly being released in October 2010. I expect price, insurance, and financing information by May 2010. Followed by the signing of paperwork and deposit taking by June 2010?
Any chance the consumer will see a no haggle price on the Volt?
=D~
Jan 22nd, 2010 (1:26 am)_____________________________________________________
#217 john1701a said:
“You cannot just dump hybrids like Prius into the same category as those like Insight. They are fundamentally different in both component & operation.”
————–
John1701a,
Well…if the Prius Plug-In requires the gas IC to be both running and mechanically linked to the wheels when driving at normal highway speeds you basically have on your hands at that point an Old School Parallel Hybrid car…and is why the Prius series/parallel (2-mode) is considered a subclass of Parallel Hybrid. By contrast, the series Volt allows one to drive at normal highway speeds without need for the gas IC.
______________________________________________________
Jan 22nd, 2010 (2:40 am)Well Amul are you willing to pay $30,000 ?
Jan 22nd, 2010 (2:58 am)Hey Lyle! What would you estimate the range of the Mini E to be in 32F degrees with the heater on? And remind us of the normal quoted range, so give us a xx/yy figure? Maybe EVs should have two ranges quoted- “Cold”/normal
J
Jan 22nd, 2010 (3:12 am)It can go at up to 62mph on electric, and that is probably not considered hwy speed by many. The Prius may need larger motors or different gearing if you want to go faster on electric power. The 80hp electric motor should be big enough. The 2010 Prius is the first generation suitable for a larger plug in pack.
Toyota will probably re-gear the Prius if the plug-in option is in high demand.
Jan 22nd, 2010 (3:35 am)I use Chrome, but just tried IE8 on this site with no problem.. but I do block all the common ad sites.. and that is probably the issue with GM-Volt.com.
Jan 22nd, 2010 (6:38 am)Yes, if I am still employed. That seems doubtful as of late.
Jan 22nd, 2010 (8:33 am)Based on that logic, Volt also falls into that same category. Think about the arguments EV supporters will pose… no engine at all.
This very topic is why today’s discussion (Advertise/Educate) is such a big deal.
When you dilute by not pointing out fundamental differences like the number of motors, their sizes, and the ability to operate independently, you’re asking for trouble. Vague references don’t help anyone in the long term.
Jan 22nd, 2010 (8:54 am)Regarding building millions of widgets, I’ll agree that it is and will continue to go overseas (to 3rd-world/low income nations). But jobs that require thinking/understanding/design (and i’m talking about blue-collar, not engineers) will still be here for some time. Basically skilled labor, which is harder to come by than you think. Most people in the low-income foreign countries don’t even have the tools, let alone know how to use them.
I dont think engineering needs to be next to manufacturing either. Especially since the world gets smaller everyday. My company pushed to put egineering next to mfg, and I see no benifits. And in my case, we are away from corporate who I had a lot of office interaction with. So now there is a disconnect between sales and engineering.
These are just my opinions based on my experiences. I dont have any figures to back this stuff up.
Jan 22nd, 2010 (11:01 am)I don’t understand why the petrol engine in the Volt has to be a 1.4 litre engine? Why not a copy of the mercedes 0.9 litre engine used in cars such as the Smart car? Surely that gets more mpg and doesn’t it only need to be running at about <30hp – and those are 60+ hp. Wouldn't that increase the petrol range. Also, why not a 0.5 litre diesel generator? The engine should be tiny to cut down on weight IMHO.
Jan 22nd, 2010 (11:05 am)#219
Good. More Volts for the rest of us. Lotsa luck.
Jan 22nd, 2010 (11:07 am)Yes – take away all petrol and the car won’t move. Caltech developed a plugin hybrid by replacing the NiMH 3KW (1KW usable) pack with a similar size Valence tech 10kW (9KW usable) pack and got 30mile electric range (at 30mph) stick in a bigger motor and you could get a 15mile range electric range car. Pity Toyota are too ****ing stupid to see what a bunch of students can do – and this is going back 3-5 years!!! Valence has had the batteries for a plugin hybrid this long… yet they announced a NiMH model a year ago!
Jan 22nd, 2010 (4:45 pm)Taking PRICE and RELIABILITY into account is stupid?
Let’s see the data from those students. Did they get a typical lifetime of service out of the vehicle with only minimal maintenance and at a cost that was competitive?
Jan 23rd, 2010 (6:53 am)“A car that has a 100 mile range and needs to be recharged for eight hours after that, that’s not flexible enough for the modern family,” said Reinert.
There are only a few times in the last 2 years the above would be a true statement for my family, so I could just take the other car in those cases.
Why not a 25HP range extending generator on a trailer? When you want to vist Aunt Betty, just hook it up and go. Most cars use 15 HP or less cruizing at 55 MPH. 25HP should keep enough power stored up for passing and hills, etc.
Jan 24th, 2010 (10:29 pm)Why don’t you fix your site so it isn’t so blasted sluggish???
Jan 26th, 2010 (1:55 pm)Even in worst-case conditions, an EV that is rated at 100 miles (max), will more than exceed the best-case EV range of the Volt; which was designed to meet the daily needs of 75-80% of drivers. Therefore, one could conclude that the 100 mile max range would be adequate for most people, most of the time, even under worst-case conditions. I think this shows that there COULD be a market for EVs once people become more educated about how/when it makes sense to use/own one.
I look at this like I look at the need for owning a pickup truck. Yeah, I need one once in a while, but not for the 99% of the time that I spend doing things I don’t need a truck for. So, when I need one, I rent one.
If you own an EV, my advise would be to splurge with your gas savings and rent a Cadillac for those long trips (or use your other car).