There is ample evidence that the US electricity grid can handle substantial numbers of electric cars. A study by EPRI and the NRDC determined that there is enough excess capacity to assimilate up to 50 million electric cars with out building any more capacity, assuming charging is done at night.
Some automakers and other stakeholders are concerned not so much with this big picture, but are concerned about smaller sections of the grid
Bill Reinert is Toyota’s outspoken national manager of advanced technology.
In an interview with Autoblog, he predicted that plugin cars “are going to cluster by ZIP code.”
“The Prius has…all hybrids cluster by ZIP code and you can assume that EVs will cluster by ZIP code,” he said. “They tend to cluster in affluent neighborhoods.”
The problem as Reinert sees it is that those affluent neighborhoods where most early adopters live contain older homes with older local electricity and transformer infrastructure.
“A lof of these neighborhoods…have undersized transformers,” he said.
He believes this highly focused high intensity electric demand could spell disaster.
“You can have a situation where you have three electric cars on the same transformer and all start charging at the same time on Level 2, 220-volt charging and you can bring down the transformer,” said Reinert.
Britta Gross who is GM’s director of infrastructure doesn’t exactly agree.
“I’m just as concerned about clusters of plasma screen TVs, air conditioners, pool heaters, etc,” she said. “This is what utilities do…they make sure that the electric grid keeps up with load growth in their communities.”
“The good news is that large numbers of plasma screen TVs and PEVs don’t get installed in a single night and surprise the utilities – the load growth happens over a time frame in which utilities can respond,” she said.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, January 20th, 2010 at 7:21 am and is filed under Charging, Grid. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+30
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:25 am)Good morning, all.
I believe Reinert is concerned, but not because of electric use.
Because the Volt is going to smash the Prius and Toyota doesn’t have a significant competitor to it.
+19
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:26 am)just FUD, as expected.
+25
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:26 am)Toyota must be getting scared – Go GM!!!
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:35 am)It may be that energy in Japan is nearly maxed out. The trend in California is to use low energy light bulbs. Smaller water heaters. And a suprisingly high number of households are going with double or triple pane windows. I had double pane installed two years ago. A coworker installed triple pane in December to get the 09′ tax credit. Much quieter and warmer in winter.
=D~
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:37 am)Ya, and aren’t you guys about to ban Plasma TV’s because they are such an energy hog?
+22
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:39 am)The utilities themselves through their industry trade association have mentioned on a number of occasions they can handle millions of plug-ins before needing to significantly expand capacity. The ramp-up is likely to be gradual in any event. Reinert’s comments come off as self-serving obfuscation and fear-mongering rather than helpful contribution to any discussion about infrastructure needs..
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:43 am)hi RA #4 …
Not much recent news on this question. We have a 32″ LCD in our living room. If plasma TV is banned. This will be a good excuse to hop over to Vegas.
=D~
-5
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:44 am)Ididots….people who don’t know what they were talking about shouldn’t be talking……
+12
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:01 am)The problem is that electric companies use transformers until they fail. They can’t really monitor remotely and depend on failures to ‘monitor’.
This happened in my neighborhood. The houses were built in the early ’50s and have been upgraded. The transformer serving my house kept blowing out (several times per year) until it finally dumped a bunch of green goo and couldn’t be reset. Since it was replaced (two years ago) it hasn’t blown again. The new one is physically much larger than the old one.
The worst-case scenario (three 220v charging at once) already happens when three a/c units fire up at once. If charging at night, I doubt that the loads will overlap very often.
I have no doubt that a few transformers will get overloaded and the blame will go to electric cars even if they are not the problem.
————————-
Please help Haiti relief. They just had another major quake.
+33
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:07 am)OK so lets put some reason into this debate.
First: Half the world (including NZ, Europe, Australia) runs on 240 Volt as native so this is just an extra appliance to run.
Second: The same zip codes in the USA that might have trouble with charging, IMO, just happen to be the ones used to getting things done (transformers) when they need them.
Three: It is for this very reason that GM has appointed Britta Gross to liaise with the USA utilities.
I also suspect this is another reason for the slow start to the roll out, as GM will be VERY sensitive to charges that the Volt is causing blackouts.
This statement is clearly FUD on the behalf of Toyota. And, if anything Toyotas comment strengthens the case for the Volt, as the Volt CAN run on gas on the relativity few days of the year the grid cannot cope and is down.
Finally: The Tesla Roadster would, I expect, be even more exclusive to zip codes. The Tesla uses a 70amp 240 Volt power supply, and yet, as far as I know, the grid copes, as I expect it should! For the math challenged, one Tesla charging = nearly 4 Volts.
/Sorry for yet another rant, but the constant “grid will not cope”, comments really piss me off.
+18
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:07 am)Where Mr. Reinert says a transformer will be overloaded, he isn’t at all familiar with the American grid, and, most certainly the meticulously maintained and ever-improving Texas Grid. (Which has such a vast input from wind, it has achieved what I would call a “Reliability Quorum”.)
8 to about 15 measily amps per household at 220v/120v respectively, is absolutely nothing at all to be concerned about whatsoever.
If that transformer was that decrepid, is would have failed in the very next lightning storm, not from these very small charging loads per household.
Toyota might indeed be at a “brick wall” in their plug in program.
If they also told their traction battery maker that they are cutting their contract amount by 30%, then, your Toyota Plug-in program is going no further until the full true costs remain in force and fully-payable to those new tech suppliers, who, have other venues of business where upon they get respected for the complete and full value of their relentless efforts.
+10
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:18 am)F-FUD!!!
Even if this comes to pass, I would consider it a wonderful issue compared to our current situaton. Bria Gross speaks very inteligently about the reality of the concern and how things will likely unfold. Time of use metering can sufficiently motivate charge timing to whatever the utility desires. PEV charging issues? I sez “BRING IT ON”
NPNS! LJGTVWOTR!
+5
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:23 am)I don’t know what you said but it was right–he’s running scared Reggie
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:24 am)Hey, NZDavid, you’re not turning American on us, are you? lol.
I hope you are well, my friend.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:32 am)WHat propaganda by the Japs A dollar worth of electricity per electric car houshold will bring down the grid Give me a break.
+19
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:33 am)I’d rather believe the electric companies overToyota, the most over-hype company in the world.
+7
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:33 am)Rashiid, I knew Reinert was talking crap, Look what a tier one supplier to Toyota is up to, heh. Down here, we have a saying, “Actions speak louder than words”, seems apt in this case.
Toyota Tsusho said the company had a strategy to invest in the Olaroz Lithium-Potash Project in order to secure access to competitive, low-cost lithium carbonate production in a timeframe closely aligned with worldwide lithium requirements for hybrid and electric vehicles.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/orocobre-20100120.html#more
-10
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:35 am)(click to show comment)
+16
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:37 am)SO why is toyota in such a hurry to produce a plug-in car while criticizing them at the same time?
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:43 am)Toyota wouldn’t be saying that if they had had the foresight to develop
an EREV like the Volt, instead of digging in their heels with their hybrid technology.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:03 am)I can see the scenario perfectly.
It’s a hot day in So. California, and the AC is maxed. Our hero has only a modest income, but since he is a staunch Nancy Pelosi supporter, is one of the first to own a Chevy Volt with its $7500 federal tax credit and the CA $15,000 rebate for the first 100 owners (all Nancy Pelosi supporters).
After a long day at the office, our hero, leaves work and stops to get something to eat. After 4 hours of chicken wings and hard drinking at H(oo)ters, he heads home to the trailer park. Forgetting that it’s a hot day and the grid is being taxed, he plugs in his Volt…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YY7TGnSaHw
Fortunately, he has the range extender, and is able to get to Nancy’s office the next day to file a class action suit against the Utility Company.
(Actually, I think the video may not have actually recorded a transformer explosion, but a cyborg from the future being teleported back in time).
+8
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:04 am)If demand increases, electric companies will increase their capability to generate and deliver electricity so that they are able to meet the demand, it’s pretty simple. In the worst case scenario, it might take a while to increase the capability in some locations, and during that time people may have to conserve electricity, charge during off hours, or suffer the occasional blackout. In the long run, though, even the worst case scenario will work itself out.
It’s good to anticipate the potential problems, but I don’t see many alternatives. It’s unlikely that electric companies are going to significantly upgrade their infrastructure based on speculation about the number of electric cars that will be sold in the next 5 or 10 years. And if a car manufacturer were to wait for such an infrastructure upgrade to happen before introducing an electric car, they would never produce one. It seems to me that the benefits of having a lot of electric vehicles on the road, which would reduce the demand for other types of energy, help improve the environment, and stick it to the crazy dictatorships that seem to produce most of the oil in the world, would far outweigh any short-term problems that we might have with “the grid.”
+16
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:09 am)You know the level of concern that Toyota has about the Volt at any given time, by the level of criticism they hurl at it on any given day. When the Volt was first announced, Toyota’s previous CEO scathingly blasted it. After GM stated the Volt would cost $40K, you didn’t hear any more from Toyota. Now that the vehicle is in the low $30’s, you hear them chime in again.
That’s good news.
+5
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:15 am)Isn’t the GRID load issue sort of a big advantage of the volt concept versus the leaf. The VOLT only needs 110v to charge every night as you never are charging more than 8kwh at any time.
The leaf has 24kwh battery, so typically if someone has 12kwh to charge overnight they really need the 220v.
However, I do think within a couple years BEV costs because of lower battery costs will be cheaper than EREV costs. EREV has to have ICE and Exhaust, gas tank etc. etc. I think within 2 years a 32KWH battery pack will be cheaper than a 16kwh battery pack plus all the extras needed to make an EREV. And maintenance costs will be cheaper also on BEV.
So I really do think within a few years we will see
EREV – 1 per 2 car family and for 1 car families that need long trips
BEV – 1 per 2 car family and for 1 car family that rarely travels over 70 miles per day
EREVs have the advantage that 110v charging is sufficient.
But all this talk about the GRID is actually a POSITIVE. The end result may mean utilities have to invest to upgrade where peak demands increase. But this will be more than offset by the HUGE BENEFIT of leveling the demand with night time charging.
This will surely reduce electric costs over time. The easy way to do this is have 3 rates
Night time i.e. 5c kwh
Day time i.e. 10c Kwh
Day Peak time (summer AC) 15c Kwh
People will think twice about setting their thermostat at 70 degrees when it is 100 outside. And they will learn to run their dryers at night and not bake during the day (which also runs up AC costs). This is what they should have been doing anyways, EVs will bring this about.
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:16 am)Distribution transformers are seldom loaded to capacity. They can run at substantial overloads. In winter, it could be as much as +100%; not so much in the heat of summer.
Most utilities have customer databases that indicate which transformer serves the customer. It is a simple procedure to total the average loads and use the load factor to calculate from the office which units are overloaded. It is not rocket science; it is not a critical concern and what kind of company worries about having to serve more load? Only in Cally-forlorn-ya.
Also, the chargers may be programmed to distribute the charging load randomly over the available charge period.
Also, your new home battery system for your solar cells can slowly store energy to serve your car load and you can serve yourself.
Also, much charging capacity is available all through the day; it may only be necessary to avoid the annual peak-of-peaks when demand on the system coincides with temperature extremes such as above 90F or below 15F.
For you European friends, all residential service in the US is served at 240Volts, we just break it into 2 legs to run 120V circuits. 240 is not a problem here so don’t fuss about it.
Charging loads spread out over the day increase the utilization of electric facilities and is very beneficial to the utility and the customer on a cost basis. It is not something to worry about – much like the AGW phantom.
+7
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:23 am)For the sake of arguement lets assume he is right and there will be lots of grid problems with EV’s and EREV’s being plugged in when everyone gets home. Simple solution is agressive off peak rates. People ain’t stupid. If it costs me twice as much during the day I will set my car up to charge at night. Forget the technology I will go out and plug it in after X:00 PM if needed. We are cheap that way!
Include the tech and it will be easy to just program the car and or charger to either charge at a certain time or better yet via a signal from the power company. No need for laws or forcing people to do anything, just charge (as in $$) appropriately and people will do what is best for them.
+9
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:27 am)This is such a non argument and really just smoke and mirrors. Nobody publicly whined about everyone buying 220 volt dryers. Nobody yelled ‘fire’ and said that transformers were going to blow in your neighborhood when laundry was being done all at once by moms everywhere, every weekday.
This is a bunch of crap and we know it. The adoption is going to be slow and the grid has capacity to handle it. Good god, electronics manufacturers keep coming up with more and more goodies that we keep buying and nobody says we’re taxing our neighborhood grids.
Just another thing for Toyota to yell about to slow GM down and keep pushing their gas burning Prius.
GO GM…. GO VOLT
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:29 am)I would like to see more electric appliances that can communicate with the grid dispatchers, especially battery chargers, like ones that will be used to electric vehicles. Dish washers, ice makers, and other appliances could also use this technology. My local electric company already does the opposite of this by offering a lower rate if they can turn off air conditioners and water heaters when demand is high.
It would be great if these devices could be set to either run their right now (if they are needed), or run when demand is low. If battery chargers were set to charge when demand is low (especially in that small piece of the grid) then batteries for our cell phones, i pods, electric shavers, tooth brushes, and of course electric cars could be charged at different times over night putting very little load on the system.
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:30 am)Yes, its the end of the world as we know it. A sample of what happens when to many people plug-in, sarcasm ensues…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaQl4OcsJFo
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:37 am)I hope we have this problem.
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:42 am)Here’s a solution. Pass a local Resolution or Ordinance that require all new construction have the infrastructure for solar or wind power generation. By infrastructure I mean, Wiring, power inverter, and proper meter. Of course if the Town wants to get aggressive they could also require 1 or 2 solar panels with expandability options. My Local building code won’t supply a certificate of occupancy if a home doesn’t have smoke alarms. Why not do the same for power generation infrastructure? Besides adding maybe 20% to the cost of a new house, why would this be a bad idea? The advantages outnumber the disadvantages.
NPNS!
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:57 am)Why not let the Electric Utilities solve the problem of up-sizing distribution capacity as required. We have been outgrowing our older distribution capacity and upgrading for years and years. Yes, plug-ins may bring more focus on that process, just as the advent of retrofitting AC into homes has done. Folks, it is what the utilities do.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (9:59 am)Upgrading to a smart grid is something that needs to be done. I have no problem with America creating good paying jobs to rebuild badly needed infrastructure. If electric vehicles weren’t coming, I would still say we need to update and improve the grid for stability, security, energy savings and to make it easier to add more renewables as well as other sources of electricity. Plug in vehicles are part of the solution, not part of the problem.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:03 am)There is way more WInd ,and solar generated power coming online as we speak than BEV can consume. In other words The grid is being supplemented with renewables at a much faster rate than electric cars at the rate of production anticipated can consume, so as ed begly says “Whats the problem”
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:06 am)Your electric car can actually power your home during a power failure if its wired right, for as long as your battery has stored power and your gas tank is filled if need be. negating the need for all those costly standby generators we see sitting beside new homes. ANother savings from electric cars.
+8
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:08 am)______________________________________________________
From Lyle’s article, Toyota’s Bill Reinert said:
“…EVs will cluster by ZIP code…They tend to cluster in affluent neighborhoods…You can have a situation where you have three electric cars on the same transformer and all start charging at the same time on Level 2, 220-volt charging and you can bring down the transformer…”
——
Toyota’s long standing public position is that Toyota believes there will be very low consumer demand for Plug-In cars. Now, Toyota is saying they are concerned that Plug-Ins may become so popular in some zip codes (affluent neighborhoods) that it might result in neighborhood grid transformers blowing up.
Hmmmm……
Toyota seems to be conflicted about the Plug-In Electric Car thing.
Perhaps Toyota should sit-out the Plug-In Revolution so that Toyota can avoid contributing towards the impending catastrophe of certain zip codes going up in flames…
Dear Toyota,
LOL! Thanks for the entertainment value.
______________________________________________________
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:10 am)It’s alright. Let it out (g). You’ll feel better.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:12 am)That won’t be available until Gen II or III, but it’ll be great when it’s available!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:14 am)FUD was my first thought, but this was my second.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:17 am)So what do you have against ididots?
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:22 am)Yes, assuming they charge at night
Maybe not. Changes in car technology happen much faster than changes to the infrastructure.
The only down-side to an EREV is price. Once the EREV unit volumes get high enough, costs will come down significantly. Combine that with peak oil, and EREVs may be the next big thing.
Soon they will be making other types of EREVs, like the Converj and Orlando. Once other car makers see the success of the Volt, they will be forced to join in. Competition will further improve price, quality, and model diversity. By 2020, I predict EREVs will account for 1/3 of all new car sales. In other words, I believe car companies are in for a really big surprise here.
Until people have a real product to evaluate, manufacturers are likely to under-estimate sales. For example, 10 years ago, most experts predicted low sales for MP3 players. Then Apple came out with the iPod, and things changed fast…
Toyota attempts to spread FUD with local transformers is a farce. These aren’t a big deal to upgrade. But adding a new power plant or major grid upgrade often takes 10 years from concept to production. So 10 years from now, if millions of people plug in during the day, there could be many black-outs.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:27 am)That tech *is* already included in Gen I. Cool!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:30 am)Come on people 75 cents worth of electricity overnight per electric car household per night, will cause blackouts?
I think the rush to huge flat screen TVs would use more power.
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:32 am)Let’s not just complain about it…let’s fix it! I’m tired of all the complaining, there’s too much that needs to be done in this Country!
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:33 am)Why not let the market decide if they WANT these things and keep the govt mandates out of the equation. This isn’t a safety issue like smoke alarms and housing sales of new homes are stagnant already! ADD 20%?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:36 am)Yota making more dumb statements. Who cares what they think or say? Stay positive!
PHEV Hummer PLZ!!
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:36 am)+1 Thanks for the chuckle.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:37 am)My Solar Panels will offset my Volt.
How about that Toyota
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:39 am)YEAH! Some of my best friends are ididots!(SIC).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:41 am)______________________________________________________
I assume the following may further aggravate the problem of local grid transformers in affluent neighborhoods blowing up:
“…GM spokesman Shad Balch says that GM expects some of the Volt’s more fanatical customers to simply yank out the Volt’s gas engine and its supporting components, including the fuel tank and exhaust systems, while reprogramming the car’s computers so as to access most or all of the Volt’s 16 kWh of battery power…”
Source / Car And Driver:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/pure-ev-chevrolet-volt-in-the-works-according-to-lutz/
For some reason I’m greatly amused by this…
_____________________________________________________
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:45 am)I’ll be offsetting my Volt’s power usage with solar panels as well.
I’d honestly prefer to use a wind generator but being in the City it’s very difficult to get a clean (non-turbulent) airflow.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:49 am)Good points Dave, I’ve also seen more people around here using lower power devices in their homes. Conservation should also be plugged more too. All should make a big difference if enough people make power saving changes.
Triggered by the Federal tax credit incentive, we too had dual pane low-e windows installed in 2009, just in time for the hot summer months here in the Southern CA inland empire. They’re great! they do make a big difference for both cooling and heating but especially cooling for our area. We hit 118 F here this summer.
We also just recently replaced our older refrigerator with the most efficient model I could find. I’m amazed how much more efficient it is than the old one. It literally uses half the power of the old one according to my kill-a-watt meter.
Both of these changes address big power users especially during peak power times. There are many ways we can address the problem without building new power plants.
+8
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:51 am)“You can have a situation where you have three electric cars on the same transformer and all start charging at the same time on Level 2, 220-volt charging and you can bring down the transformer,” said Reinert.
Oh please come on ! Stoves are on 220 and people use them all the time, at peak hours, and don’t bring the transformers down. And suddenly, at night, a few Volts would bring down the transformers ?
The most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a long time. Not to mention than many Volts will be charged on 110.
That’s misinformation at its best.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (10:54 am)It is likely that battery cost will come down, but probably this will not greatly increase practicality of the BEV for most of people like me, who need reliable transportation in -45 – 90 F temps. I think BEV will be able to come close to EREVs only at 100+ KWH, that is unaffected by the outside temperature (not going to happen with chemical batteries). So, untill nonchemical storage comes with available burst charge in the MW range liquid fuel will rule with or without small batteries for daily driving.
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:02 am)There might be an issue in some rare occurrences. But that’s exactly what the utilities have to plan for and equipment maintenance have to be improved if necessary.
It’s not an Electric Car issue, it’s a maintenance issue that PG&E has to resolve.
As for Lyle bias, the site is called GM-Volt. I do not expect an unbiased position, if such a thing truly exists.
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:06 am)There will be an electric supply problem, but not the self-serving baloney that Toyota is peddling.
The real problem is that electricity from mainly coal-fired generation reduces only limited disadvantages resulting from oil import (unsustainable unfavorable balance of payments, unsustainable huge defense expenses, American boys dying, etc). But it will worsen the global-warming catastrophe. This is because burning coal creates even more carbon dioxide that burning oil since coal has more carbon than oil.
The solution is practical solar energy. California’s laws encourage power companies to switch over, which they are starting to do. The most practical way of producing utility-scale (units of hundreds of megawatts) power is solar thermal, in which thousands of mirrors tracking the sun daily and seasonally, are aimed at a boiler producing the large quantities of high-grade steam currently made by burning coal. These units are under construction in the Mojave desert. A tiny area of the desert (100 square miles) will satisfy the entire needs of the country.
An important refinement of the solar thermal system is to heat molten salt and use it to store heat so that it can generate steam after the sun goes down, thereby lengthening the availability of power until demand drops after midnight. The 100-megawatt plant being built at Tonopah NV has this storage feature. Solar thermal-plus-storage is therefore more practical than wind or photo-voltaic.
The final part of the puzzle will be reinforcement of the current long-distance high voltage transmission network so as to economically bring the power from the deserts where it will be generated to where it is used.
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:07 am)People don’t always do the right thing. Government regulations are implemented to guide the public in a direction that is beneficial to all. O.K. maybe comparing to the requirement of smoke alarms was not the right choice. But let’s consider building regulations that require the structure to be a certain distance from the front, back and sides of the property line. In Hoboken NJ the brownstones are right next to each other. In other towns that’s not permitted, maybe it’s an aesthetic curb appeal regulation, could also be fire safety. My point is if these rules or codes aren’t in place most contractors would build right to the property line. As far as the 20% I gave earlier, that was just a rough guess.
I think adding power generation infrastructure regulations for new construction is not a bad idea.
1. Increases the value of the property.
2. Potential to supply power to the grid.
3. Adds to clean power generation.
4. Potential to lower owner’s electrical utility bill.
It’s a smart investment a new home buyer may not choose due to lack of knowledge.
NPNS!
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:09 am)Ok I’ll revise my prediction:
EREV – 1 per 2 car family and for 1 car families that need long trips
BEV – 1 per 2 car family and for 1 car family that rarely travels over 70 miles per day and doesn’t live in the Arctic Circle
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:10 am)I hate to burst your bubble, but the charge required more than 80% of the time will be about the same for an ER-EV (staying within its AER) as for a pure EV.
As a daily EV user, I can tell you that most of the time, you’ll be just topping off anyway, with major chunks of capacity unused. That’s why V2G makes sense, so the grid is actually more stable and power smoothed with EVs (and ER-EVs) (and getting better every day) than it was without any EVs (and ER-EVs) on it. And that’s not just some utility talking, that’s from a multi-years experienced EV user.
BTW, the key to V2G is a decent inverter. Now, what already comes with a decent inverter? Oh, that’s right, a properly installed grid connected residential solar system.
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:13 am)This is what the report of Electrification Coalition says (get the 180 page pdf from below). Individual transformers that server a dozen or so houses may have to be upgraded.
http://electrificationcoalition.org/events.php
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:17 am)gm has stated that the volt will only draw as much electricity as your Refrigerator. does the neighborhood blackout when your fridge kicks on? i don’t think the draw from a 15 amp 110v household plug will cause a problem. toyota has been very resistant to the plug.
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:19 am)I totally agree that it’s a good idea to add power generation. I totally disagree that the govt should mandate features that the consumer may not want – even if it’s because of their “lack of knowledge”. If I buy such a house and the tech improves dramatically in 2 or 3 years, will I upgrade to the newer tech? Or should the upgrade be mandatory too? Please let the consumer decide.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:23 am)What’s a “GEV”? Thanks for the link.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:24 am)This news makes the Volt that much more attractive a vehicle.
Unlike drivers of “traditional” electric cars without the gas-powered range extender, Volt drivers won’t desperately be trying to find a place to plug in their vehicles during the day when demand is highest to get home from work or a day trip out of town.
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:24 am)crap….crap….crap…..
crap….crap….crap…..
crap….crap….crap…..
Just build the PHEV/BEV’s already. It;’s the power companies fault for not being able to support power to you. It’s not like they don’t know this is going to happen. If their infra fails, it’s because their “Planner” or “Forecaster” sucks at their job and nobody cared to read the writing on the wall.
Aren’t they the bone heads who get the test fleets first anyway? If they can’t determine the load then WTF are they doing in their job?
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:27 am)Nelson,
I think that regulations around a standardized ‘rough in’ (wiring running from the roof to the power panel space) to support local power generation would be affordable and fairly easy to sell.
The honest truth is that in the current pricing structure it is VERY hard to justify the cost of solar or wind in a normal families house budget. ($20,000 plus dollars)
What do you trade off? a garage? the hardwood? the ‘nice’ kitchen? the ‘bonus room’? basement development?
A VERY hard sell to the rest of the family indeed!
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:30 am)Uh OH….
Watchout for pdf’s…
http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/techalerts/TA10-013A.html
Patch/upgrade to version 9.3 of your reader for the fix.
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:33 am)Garage?: Most likely since you are the in there most…
The Hardwood Floors: Hell no. Wife will put your ass in the dog house.
The ‘nice’ kitchen: Again….woof woof!
The ‘bonus room’: Woof Woof!
Basement development: Last ditch option because it’s your “Man Cave”!!!
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:34 am)We do need to upgrade our electric system. And we need to install a smart grid. With or without electric cars. I believe we’re already working on both.
Obviously, Toyota has an agenda here. But if they’re warnings prompt even a few municipalities to install a smart grid faster. Or improve capacity faster, so much the better.
+6
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:34 am)Toyota is crapping their pants. I love it!
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:35 am)#2
Right.
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:40 am)#5
I dunno, but we just got rid of ours and got an “Energy Star” LED (LCD?). Smaller too, LOL. I wonder if that saves enough power to charge the Volt, hehehe?
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:42 am)Err Tom, how about our friends who live in the air-con belt?
They have the same power issues keeping themselves at a healthy temperature.
I will NOT buy any BEV and I live ~2000 km south of the arctic circle.
I can and will live with an EREV Volt.
It is GREAT that you live in a place that is room temperature all year round and there is never a need to run the heater or A/C, but most of us live in places where there is actual weather.
Our families transportation needs to be able to handle that without worry.
Until they get the magic unicorn horns working for the price of a standard car engine a BEV is simply not practical.
/I’m not holding my breath on the unicorn horns, but would be very happy to see them actually work!
-1
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:50 am)“DirtyDawgRob” lives in the cold assed cold of cold. I wouldn’t call that “room temp”, unless you’re a Polar bear.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:51 am)#40 Good catch! LOL +1
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:53 am)Ah my Captain you correctly summarize it down to the basics!
When we built this house 12 years ago it was amazing how many of those ‘options’ cost an additional $5000 a pop! We have a garage-house so there was no ‘option’ price for that on this floor plan.
It ‘might’ be an extra $100 to add the roughed in wiring for solar, that’s an option I would choose. It of course was NOT an option when we built.
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:57 am)This is funny, in a good way. You are rarely so animated.
I believe Mr. Reinert has a point but it’s overblown. A tempest in a teacup if you will.
First I get Volt clustering. I live in a neighborhood where maybe 3 out of 15 household would get a Volt if they could. That strikes me as a lot of Volts in one place. Second I get the transformer issue. While the neighborhood is not old, the houses which compose it are close ot the ocean, which led he developer/utility to assume that very few of the houses would install air conditioners, and the transformers were sized accordingly. So every few years, more houses have air conditioning, and during a hot spell a transformer blows because it can’t handle the larger load. Then the utility has to come out and upgrade it.
To your main point, this does not seem to be a big deal. First, I suspect that air conditioning has already “hardened” the grid. Even where Volts are popular they are not going to be as popular as air conditioning, and if the infrastructure has been engineered for a lot of air conditioners all running flat out at exactly the same time it will handle a lesser number of Volts charging at the same time. Second, as you mentioned, in the event the transformer does blow, the utility just comes out and upgrades the affected transformer. It’s hardly a catastrophe. An inconvenience yes, but not a catastrophe.
Jan 20th, 2010 (11:59 am)LOL, this coming from our surfing pirate who lives in that rarefied room temperature place!
Maybe I wasn’t clear, we get weather here the whole range from -40c to +40c although usually not on the same day.
Hence we use both A/C AND Heaters depending on the season.
/BTW, it’s +4c today here in Calgary.
Good weather for the Olympic torch stuff today!
WAY too warm for polar bears!
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:00 pm)@74….
Screwed up, it was meant for someone esle…..
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:02 pm)#56
Including the aforementioned PG&E, which has been highly involved in this whole ZEV, BEV, PHEV, et al, movement since the very beginning. I mean, it’s the marketing opportunity of all time for them.
My automatic reaction to any and all Toyota press releases:
“10-88″
-20
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:03 pm)(click to show comment)
+7
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:04 pm)Toyota is struggling to keep the technological edge in their PR, despite the fact that they are 6 months to a year behind.
Less than a year ago, they were saying that lithium batteries were not ready for use in plug-in hybrids. Now they have announced one.
Now they are saying that the Volt will take the grid down when nuclear plants are being throttled down at night because there is no place for their power output. At the same time they are subsidizing their domestic electric cars to the tune of $14,000 apiece so that they can catch up with GM before they lose market share.
Their latest ad still promotes hydrogen cars which can never be technically feasible because there is no energy-efficient source of hydrogen.
GM has the opportunity to grab the technological PR lead back from Toyota with the right advertising — this would help the sales of their entire product line.
All they need to do is show the Volt passing a gas station with cars lined up for gas and/or with a $4 a gallon sign. Of course, this means that they are committed to producing cars that have highest gas mileage in class, a path they are already on.
+6
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:05 pm)It is amazing Toyota goes out of its way to make a comment about that electric grid may not be able to handle the needs of electric cars.
This means they truly are concerned about cars like the Volt.
Toyota now sounds like Microsoft, short sellers in the stock market, and most politicians. When they are worried about an issues their first response is to spread FUD FUD and more FUD ( fear, uncertainty and doubt).
This makes one feel a WHOLE BETTER about the coming success of the VOLT!
I hope they can make enough VOLTS to meet the demand, including the one for me! :+}
+12
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:07 pm)Same to you and more of it, LOL. -1
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:10 pm)Man, SoCal Eddison, PG&E and SMUD all had EV’s to test against their all mighty grid since back in the EV-1 days. SoCal Eddison still has a lage fleet to Toy Rav-4 EV’s for pete’s sake and if I recal, SMUD had/has some of the Ford Ranger EV’s still. They already know the effect.
Just build the cars DANGIT!!!!
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:14 pm)Without changes in laws how will utilities be convinced to change their entire rate structures in ways that are not now in their own best interests, and that violate their stakeholder approved business plans?
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:15 pm)+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:16 pm)Would there be rampant power outages if half the people in an affluent neighborhood turned on their 50 inch TV’s within the same few minutes too?
Eff off, Toyota!!! suck a fat one.
+5
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:17 pm)Why do so many people have trouble understanding that most GM Volts will be charged at night when few people are using electricity?
The Volt will use MUCH less power than the Clothes dryer, electric range/oven, or air conditioner. I don’t see transformers going up in flames every evening when people get home from work…
Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt (FUD) – the blunt clubs of opposition.
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:19 pm)Yes, thank you. So many FC cheerleaders thinks that in the 2016 model year all the cost issues will go away.
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:20 pm)My reading of the article is that the “will cluster by zip code” is just their way of saying “unaffordable – only available to the rich folks” without actually using those words. It’s just between the lines (along with the FUD message). JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:22 pm)Sounds you’d like to LJGTVWOTR!! (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:23 pm)If there was, it’s the power company’s FAULT!
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:26 pm)Yup. The faster Gen 1 get’s out the sooner Gen 2 comes. Which of course it the version I can hopefully afford. Still interested in their BEV version though.
/Selfish me.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:26 pm)Actually Muddy, here in the south of California, we consider capt and his northern brethren to be hardy souls, for putting up with average daily winter temps in, brrrr the low ’60s.
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:27 pm)They will do what they have always done (very successfully) – watch the trends and project their services to meet them. It’s in their interest to do so. It’s not in the consumer’s interest to have unfunded govt mandates for things that may not meet their personal needs – like a man-cave or garage.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:29 pm)AMEN +1
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:30 pm)LOL, uncontested!
My bad, I tend to cluster all of California together…
Easy to do from a distance!
I’ll be in San Diego on the 29th, see if you can order up up some good weather for our cruise eh?
Thanks!
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:30 pm)My point exactly. At the very least there should be a law requiring builders to offer the option.
NPNS!
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:34 pm)That’s cold enough to “chill the boys” and make them hide….if ya know whatimean.
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:42 pm)Considering SMUD here in NorCal raised their rates because they lost revenue from businesses closed and home forclosures went on the rise, I have no sympathy for those muthaf$%^&s. But when the economy bounces back? Will they bring the rates down? Most likely not.
Punkazzmuthaf@#$%s.
-19
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:42 pm)(click to show comment)
-5
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:43 pm)O yes, you in USA have both strange electricity distribution system (I still can’t get the point) and 110V consumer grid. I remember I had to by a transformer 110/220 when I travelled to USA.
If you had European distribution/voltage, I would say that Toyota claims sounds like nonsense.
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:43 pm)See, here’s the porblem with ididots… They’re nearly as obtoose as chronnic mispeellers. No brane, no pane.
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:43 pm)LOL!
I spent a few years in the service posted at CFB Cold Lake.
There were many “chilly” moments there!
I absolutely know what you mean!
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:44 pm)Sheesh! We’ve been praying to get above freezing (lol)!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+7
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:45 pm)I don’t recall any rolling blackouts in 2009.
Anyone else?
If we did, IT’S THE POWER COMPANIES FAULT!
Someone in there is making WRONG load projections.
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:47 pm)Then they should outlaw plasma TV’s! Speaking of “agenda driven studies”! lol.
Sorry, no sale.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:49 pm)The volt will never require any charge beyond 8kwh, so it can be done nightly with 110v. And if it is only half charged for some reason no big deal.
Someone with a 100 mile BEV may not always need more than the Volt, but a BEV owner is critical to be able to top off no matter how much they used the previous day, they can’t afford to leave without 100% charge, so a BEV owner has to have at least 220v.
My point was a volt owner doesn’t HAVE to have 220v, a BEV owner is living dangerously without 220v. My bubble is never burst.
-22
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:50 pm)(click to show comment)
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:50 pm)#85
Amen brother. Preach on! +1
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:51 pm)Two meny big wurds.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:51 pm)Toyota has a problem.
Our HSD design is the recognized leader today. But that does not work as well when converted to a PHEV. Ours are the fashion choice like Gucci handbags right now, but what happens when the fickle fashion is passé`?
Plus unlike the GM design and other competitors, our electric motors use lots of rare earths materials and their motors don’t. The Chinese are rationing these materials and driving up costs, immensely.
But worst of all, the fashionable ZIP codes where we sell Prii, are filled with NIMBYs,(Not In My Back Yard), and BANANAs, (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Anymore). They haven’t build any new electric supply for Politically Correct but absolutely stupid reasons like Gaea religious dogma, for three decades. They won’t even let the few solar and windmills built, to deliver electricity to them. Power lines are so ‘not pretty’, don-cha-know.
Oh what will we do when fashion abandons us?
Let’s scare them! That’s the ticket. Tell the fools who don’t know squat, that Their antique electric transformers will blow and the old generators just can’t supply the ‘juice’ wanted.
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:53 pm)Passing on FUD like this makes me almost feel sorry for Toyota
First we had the “Not enough Generation Capacity” Red Herring or
Oh noes, California wouldn’t be able to support 1 million Electric Cars drawing power at peak time today! (True this is likely only 2-3 weeks in a year, but on noes!)
Now we have the “Cluster” Red Herring
Oh noes, one of the worst Utility companies (in terms of age of network and investment in network) worries it can’t support lots of EVs on the same transformer. Let cancel EVs!
The bottom line? PGE is a private company. The Volt and other EVs WILL increase the cost to upgrade thier network. PGE is one of the worst companies in that they have tried for decades to keep replacement costs as low as possible. Now they are faced for a situation where thier network is just not up to snuff. Its true that its slightly unfair to ask PGE to take the majority of costs to upgrade thier own grid… but this is thier own fault for lack of planning, specifying maximum house power draws, or upgrading similar to SCE. On the positive side, if transformers -are- blowing in PGE terrority, that must mean people are consuming more power, which means PGE should make more profit, which means they should pay for the ability to make more money!
Going forward, this may become more and more of an issue. Power companies promised consumers one thing, while building thier network to support a much smaller load. When the killer App comes along, and people want to use what they purchased, the networking company has issues. See ATT and Iphone.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:54 pm)Noel, I know your old TV is gone already, but anyway…
If you don’t have a “Kill-a-Watt” already, get one of them, and wonder-no-more about how much power you’re using/saving:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&Description=kill-a-watt
The P4400 model is the simplest/cheapest of the Kill-a-Watts, but still gives you the basic information you need about how much juice any 110v device is using.
They can be had for <$20 shipped sometimes … I got mine from SuperMediaStore.com for <$20 a shipped, a year or two ago. SMS.com link: http://www.supermediastore.com/category/u/p3-kill-a-watt-killawatt-meter
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:54 pm)LOL, I love a good satire!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:55 pm)You know what, you brought out a memory about 4 years ago when they did have the rolling blackouts….
When they did that, guess where all the people went?
Yup, they all went outside and all the neighbors were out blabbing and BS’ng in the neighborhood streets, It was weird because normally they would’ve never spoken.
Jan 20th, 2010 (12:56 pm)Right now we can’t buy a EREV or BEV. All these conversations are for what will be on the market in the next 2-10 years.
This is a great thread but so many comments are just wasted because some people are talking about the present ($40,000 volts which aren’t even for sale), while others like myself are speculating on the future (what will be available in 2-10 years).
But thats what is exciting is to see what these products will be like, their quality and performance characteristics.
Muddy just said a Leaf will only work at room temperature. Perhaps, but if that was the case why would Nissan pursue them.
Time will tell.
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:03 pm)Just so it’s clear, Canada and the US pretty much share the same power grid so we have the same standard domestic power.
However the step down to 110v happens in the home at the power panel not on the grid.
The grid power concerns continue to be irrelevant.
/Obviously there are issues in other places but I can’t remember the last time we had a power outage here.
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:04 pm)Absolutely! And until then all we *have* is speculation. That’s what we *DO* (g).
PS The Volt’s price won’t be announced until the spring.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:08 pm)I absolutely have no idea why Nissan is pursuing BEV’s, we certainly will not buy one.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:08 pm)#102
Well I don’t know where you get your information, but I live and work in the heart of the SoCal megalopolis. The last rolling blackout here was about 5-6 years ago. It happened twice one summer at the height of the afternoon air conditioning peak. It hasn’t happened since. Before that, I don’t remember it ever happening, and I’ve lived here for over 60 years. So check your facts, please.
I’ve always taken credit for fixing it. After the first one, I ran out and bought a portable generator to keep the telephone switch at the business alive. It happened one more time, and it worked. It has never happened again. The generator is sitting in the back of the shop. We try to remember to start it up once a year so that it will, hopefully, work if there ever is a next time. So we have used the generator for about 1/2 hour total in its life, LOL.
Urban legend is alive and well. Not true in this case. A highly oversold problem. -1
The AC peak here is on very hot summer days from about 1-2 PM to about 6 PM. So we could actually charge our Volts at work from first thing in the morning until lunch time with no problem, as well as at night.
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:17 pm)#115
Thanks for the tip. Good idea. +1
Actually, the plasma died. I think it was related to the crash the same day of our “bundled” cable TV/phone/internet access deal. It seems that there was a loose connection in the box across the street. Anyway, good luck getting anywhere with that.
My wife wanted a smaller set anyway, as we have moved to a smaller house and she thought it overpowered the room (sabotage?).
So it wasn’t just energy saving altruism, LOL. We just made sure it was “Energy Star” rated as long as we had to do it anyway.
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:28 pm)In this area CA (followed by NY and a few other states) have been way out ahead of the curve. Rather than just regulating the rates, which is what public utilities have traditionally done, CA split off the distribution charges from the electrical rates. So as a consumer you pay X for the distribution and Y for the electricity.
Utilities are compensated for the distribution but NOT for the electricity consumed — that gets billed to the consumer on a cost basis. In effect the utility makes the same amount whether they sell a lot of electricity or a little. And, surprise, surprise, since CA adopted this approach electrical usage per cap has now become the lowest in the nation. States like TX where the utilities are still compensated by the kWh consumed have seen electrical usage continue upward.
it’s amazing what better regulation can achieve. invariably it involves less regulators, fewer specifics, and smarter rules.
-2
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:30 pm)That’s because of Democratic Nanny’s overwhelming need to CONTROL every aspect of our lives. It makes me sick to think about it.
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:37 pm)I agree with this. Question if using V2G I assume that you do not want the grid to drain your battery very low. That would require some software to manage it (set minimum SOC, time frames, etc.). I would think also from the power grid point of view, that you would not want to pump power back to the grid except very near to peak load times. Probably from a selfish consumer’s point of view, just using the battery to power your own house would be more cost effective. Isn’t selling power back to the grid usually done at a price lower than what they charge you to use?
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:42 pm)Hey I just thought of a new way to throw a monkey wrench in the Volt’s rollout and acceptance. All I need to do is make a cheap BEV that goes 100 miles on a single charge, and sell enough of them to cause power grid problems.
Maybe that’s Nissan’s true intention with the LEAF.
NPNS!
+5
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:42 pm)Toyota may be on to something here…
I’m willing to bet that people who buy high-end ICE sports cars and Hummers live in the same zip code too. Hummm just take a guess at what kind of “gas outage” could occur if BMW came out with a new sports car!
Give me a break. We’re not using the same grid our grand dad used. our homes are not all still on 60A services. The world moves forward.
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:44 pm)No, but $1.60 worth of electricity during the day could, if many people did it.
The CRT screens they replaced also used power, and the new LED back lighting is lowering power use considerably. So in 5 years, it will probably be a wash.
The real issue is air conditioners. These push our grid to it’s limit. If a lot of people plug in their cars on hot summer days, we will have blackouts.
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:47 pm)None last summer that I recall.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:50 pm)The charging power of the Volt is less than an electric water heater. So three homes taking showers at the same time is going to bring down the power? I dont think so. If you compare it to just one of these “on demand” water heaters you could charge many many Volts.
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:50 pm)I keep saying it is as easy as having 3 rate tiers, night, day and PEAK day (11-5pm jun1 to sep1 or whatever). All they gotta do is set the rates and people will distribute their use accordingly.
Eventually if there are 100 millions EVs the utilities will have to offer a low rate for the ability to control when they are charged. But a higher rate to plug in outside of utility control.
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (1:59 pm)Here you can see the excess power available on the grid.
http://currentenergy.lbl.gov/index.html
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (2:21 pm)OT
In other news…..
“Chrysler Recalls 24K Vehicles Over Brakes”
http://www.ksat.com/automotive/22276113/detail.html
Chrysler Group LLC is recalling 24,177 vehicles because of a defect that could result in brake failure.
The recall includes 2010 models of the Chrysler Sebring, Dodge Avenger, Dodge Nitro, Jeep Commander, Jeep Grand Cherokee and Jeep Liberty and 2009 and 2010 models of the Dodge Ram pickup.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced the recall Tuesday.
Jan 20th, 2010 (2:26 pm)PA is going to the same system shortly and they predict that the cost/KWh will shoot up significantly. Is that why usage/capita went down so much?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 20th, 2010 (2:32 pm)Even at 120? Not much pressure on the grid there.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 20th, 2010 (2:33 pm)THey forgot about their TOYOTA RAV EV from 2003.They are great cars and stil runing today on NiMH battery pack !
-7
Jan 20th, 2010 (2:34 pm)I’m not saying it is a big issue… I don’t even think Toyota was saying that… it is this site that is getting all hot and bothered.
It doesn’t take much research on the electrical grid to see that it has some serious issues and that there has been a lack of infrastructure and maintenance investment. And I don’t think much will change in the “charge me less and don’t you dare tax me” USA.
Yes, I do expect a fair amount of positive Volt spin on GM-Volt.com. But that doesn’t mean that important details should be left out, and that doesn’t give people an excuse to stop thinking. Clearly some people still aren’t reading the source articles. And the reaction the other day to the (now known incorrect) EXCLUSIVE on the low price of the Volt shows that this site has fostered unrealistic expectations of the Volt for too many members.
+2
Jan 20th, 2010 (2:37 pm)“You can have a situation where you have three electric cars on the same transformer and all start charging at the same time on Level 2, 220-volt charging and you can bring down the transformer,” said Reinert.
If that should happen, it is just another routine day at Duke Energy, or whatever the power company is. Insofar as supplying power, these people are smart.
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (2:39 pm)The price of the Volt will not be announced until spring. Period.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 20th, 2010 (2:41 pm)Yes, much much less, more like 3 toasters.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (2:50 pm)The last blackout in New York city was the one in 2003. And that was all over the east coast. I’ve heard they had brownouts in some areas, but it’s hardly a regular occurrence.
Jan 20th, 2010 (2:54 pm)FYI:
There are 3 basic kinds of flat screen TV. From oldest to newest they are:
Plasma
LCD
LED
That is also in order by power usage, and in inverse order by cost.
Plasma creates a glow for each pixel using an electric field which energizes a gas. This requires a lot of power. Until the past few years or so, the result was the best picture available. A famous disadvantage has been limited lifetime.
LCD uses Liquid crystal “light valves” for each pixel; which allows light from behind to go through, or not, as needed. This allows a special flourescent tube to be used (as the backlight) which is much more efficient than creating plasma for each pixel (it can also last longer). Current LCD models have an equivalent picture quality to Plasma.
LED is very like LCD, except that the flourescent tube is replaced as a backlight by LEDs (which are slimmer and much more efficient). Potentially, this could last much longer than an LCD, but it’s a very new technology. This, to my mind, is not a “true” LED TV (in which each pixel would have it’s own LED light source), but is still a significant development.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (3:04 pm)(edit ran out)
Organic LEDs have the potential to create “true” LED TVs (each pixel color has it’s own LED which is modulated along with the others to produce a picture). This would have the advantage of letting “black” pixels consume no power, and dim ones use less power than brightly-lit pixels; saving even more energy. If mass-production and size-scaling problems are solved, we may begin seeing these in a few years.
True LED TVs also allow much higher frame-refresh rates, which will become important for home 3D (which will be be coming down the pike at about that time).
-5
Jan 20th, 2010 (3:33 pm)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOf2Qb3UszM
Who killed the electric car?
I wonder from what car manufactuer is the first car in this video !?? ()
+12
Jan 20th, 2010 (4:02 pm)As Haiti slowly recovers from earthquake, nearly $400 million has been donated by foreign countries, while oil-rich nations like Saudi Arabia and Iran have given nothing.
Just another reminder where our money goes when we fill up our tank.
Jan 20th, 2010 (4:06 pm)Great Point!!!
+1 for ya bro!
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (4:24 pm)Oops, there goes the warranty on the battery.
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (4:36 pm)Thanks for the warning, Toyota! My Y2K supplies are gonna taste mighty good when the Super Bowl crashes the grid!
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (4:36 pm)That’s for damn sure. When GM and Toyota were negotiating about the NUMMI ( new united motor manufacturing Inc ) plant in the SF south bay, this is how I imagine it went:
TMC: While y’all are developing your e-flex whatever, why don’t we jointly make prius cars, you and us, millions of synerdrive vehicles as far as the eye can see. It’ll be a beautiful thing…
… Yknow and when you get that little car you’re working on — what’s it called Volt ? — yea, then you can share that with us… Gosh, lots of money to be made for all of us….
GM: Hmmm… You know what? Not so much. Think we’ll slog on….
Jan 20th, 2010 (4:52 pm)10 kW Convection Microwave
http://tinyurl.com/yl6pklw
They make microwaves that take a lot more power than the Volt – do we have studies about what would happen to the electrical grid if Bosch starts selling too many convection microwaves? OMG, what if people start cooking big turkeys for dinner, or large hams? How many people can afford $800 microwaves? What if they live in the wrong kinds of neighborhoods?
“You can have a situation where you have one family get this fine convection microwave, and have their neighbors over for a delicious turkey dinner. A few months later, you might have three families that have purchased this power hog on the same transformer and all start microwaving for dinner on Level 2, 220-volt charging and you can bring down the transformer,” said Reinert.
+3
Jan 20th, 2010 (4:58 pm)A truly chilling realization isn’t it?
Jan 20th, 2010 (5:17 pm)Open source EV platform:
http://www.trexa.com/
http://nexus404.com/Blog/2010/01/20/trexa-ev-reveals-open-source-electric-vehicle-platform-trexa-ev-provides-an-electric-vehicle-core-for-third-party-body-designs/
/I like to listen to this, while I’m looking at the Trexa website:
http://iownthebillybaroo.tripod.com/
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (5:21 pm)It’s not wasted, IMO it’s how we learn. Just put the assumptions down on the table and have folks from a lot of differing points of views have their say. I believe we learn a lot that way, much more than folks that hole themselves up in their own little silos and spout off about how everyone else is stupid all day. It’s more civil here, even though there are points of view that reach all the way across the spectrum.
Jan 20th, 2010 (5:29 pm)You can buy an OLED TV right now:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/595303-REG/Sony_XEL_1_XEL_1_OLED_11_Digital.html#features
It uses only 39 watts.
Granted, it’s only 11″ diagonally, and the resolution is only 960 x 540 – but it’s very new technology, as you say.
It uses no backlight, so is incredibly thin (half as thick as a CD case), light, and the blacks are black and the contrast ratio is 1,000,000:1. The viewing angle is 178°, and the response time is “super fast”.
This TV weighs 4.3 lbs.
In a few years, these TV’s will be large, HD, light, low power and much cheaper.
OK, maybe more than a few years…
Jan 20th, 2010 (5:29 pm)I think this is pretty much true, now. However, I should point out that soon we will all have smart meters (they just put in a smart gas meter at my house) because power companies DO want to be able to monitor the loads on their system more accurately than just one big load number. That and they don’t want to pay people to read meters, anymore, but whatever.
They don’t last forever in any case. At worst this might pull forward some replacements that were going to happen at some point, anyway.
There probably won’t be a problem in California where we are already running air conditioners in the day and not at night. Any transformers that weren’t up to the task pretty much have burned out already. There may be some problems in cooler neighborhoods that don’t run A/C (Seattle?) or run it all night because of the humidity (Birmingham?). But this is not some kind of showstopper. Transformers have been burning out since they were invented.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (5:37 pm)Because Carlos Ghosn basically said he wants the company to dominate sales of EV’s and he believes the market will be important. If any other car maker’s chief said it I might laugh out loud, but this guy has a way of forcefully making what he wants come true.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (5:46 pm)My comment was motivated by several previous ones equating all “flat screen” TVs generally with plasma, and I admittedly got a little carried away. Yes, an OLED TV is available now as a curiosity, in a small size format for an exhorbitant sum. My base point being: Many of the things we use everyday are either at the moment or soon to be revolutionized in a way that saves energy; perhaps enough so that something new (electric vehicle) may not be such a burden as some people (Toyota) seem to think.
Home 3D, which I also alluded to in the future tense, is also already appearing in first generation products; at unrealistic prices, for use only with the most advanced TVs (with very little, if any software available as yet). As with OLED, this will await future developments for a more general release.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (5:47 pm)OK, I hear what you are saying and Carlos HAS shown an ability to pull rabbits out of hats!
I’m just saying I’m not buying any BEV but I will buy an EREV.
No range extender no sale.
Jan 20th, 2010 (6:02 pm)To be fair, a BEV may technically be able to function in cold weather; but if so, it will not work nearly as well. If a 100 mile BEV delivers a real-world range of 70 in moderate weather, cold weather performance may have to be downgraded to 40 – 50 miles.
If battery cycle life improves with range as prices fall, I’d expect a future EREV to be able to get away with a smaller engine (which would also reduce costs); this is because more buffering will be allowable to match a smaller generator output to wider driving demands. Future battery enhancements will improve the outlook for all EVs, not just for BEVs (and an engine of any size will mitigate most cold weather electric-range problems in any future EREV).
Jan 20th, 2010 (6:05 pm)I’ll buy one. I have a short commute of 9.5niles one way. Anything more than 70-80 MPC “Real” will be overkill for me.
Also:
China’s BYD Gets OK To Launch e6 EV
http://www.insideline.com/byd/e6/chinas-byd-gets-ok-to-launch-e6-ev.html
So if you need to go more than 100MPC they’re supposed to be in the states fall 2010. Not holdin my breath though. If someone needs to go further, get the VOLT!
Jan 20th, 2010 (6:18 pm)You aren’t the only one to note this, Cap’n. The great unknown with the BYD e6 is quality and availability, IMHO. We’ll just have to wait and see.
By the way, what kind of electrical service is needed to get half of the claimed 205 mile range in 10 minutes, anyway?
Jan 20th, 2010 (6:22 pm)A small step has already occured in the DIY market. Thundersky is now selling “Lithium Yttrium” (LiFeYPO4) cells and for the same price. This new chem increases the 80% DOD from 2000 cycles to 3000 cycles and the 70% DOD from 3000 cycles to 5000 cycles.
Keep moving forward…..
Jan 20th, 2010 (6:28 pm)A Jigawatt!….lol
Did you read the size of the batt pack in ABG? ~60KWh pack!
Great googley moogley!!!
With a pack that sized, I’ll fill up at work and plug my trailer house to it. Call it portable rechargeable home energy storage. lol…
Jan 20th, 2010 (6:37 pm)“Reinert said he was skeptical of claims by utilities that they would be able to upgrade transformers ahead of the curve of EV adoption rates.”
Who’s the expert here, Reinert or the Utilities?
Upgrading transformers is trivial, Electric Utility companies do it all the time.
Where I live in Ontario, almost all houses have 100 amp 240 vac service, however the utility supply is designed for 200 amp and upgrading to a 200 amp service is a matter of increasing the wire size from the meter on the side of the house to the service panel.
Jan 20th, 2010 (6:50 pm)Edison is set up for electric car charging today. At the fifth tier rate of 31.5 cents NO one is going to plug in during the day. Edison’s EV rates take place at night.
Jan 20th, 2010 (6:53 pm)The technology to handle this already exist. I get my electricity from a rural electric coop and have had a load control system installed in my home fo 12+ years. This system is actually designed to help the power company control system peak load, but it could vey easily prevent an overload from multiple car charging systems from coming on at the same time. On my house the load controller is connected to the water heater and to the furnace and air conditioner. If the load on the system begings to reach the peak demand limit, the power company can selectivly shut down individual systems to reduce the load on any portion of their system. They usually only shut off a particular unit for a few minutes at a time so that any one home does not have the heat or water heater off long enough to be a problem. In the time I have had the system on my house I have never run out of hot water or noticed a sever temperature change in the house. This system could be connected to the power circuit for charging your volt. The power companies could turn off the charging power to some of the volts in a given area for a few minutes, then turn those back on and turn off others and keep switching between the off units and the on units controlling the number that are on at any given time, and still allow for all units to reach full charge status.
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:11 pm)#149
LOL +1
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:16 pm)I meant to include also, is that if utilities rate structures rewarded them for selling more power, they wouldn’t be very bright if they penalized folks for using more at certain times of day and rewarded them for conserving at all, would they?
________________________________________
After all this, if the Government does not fund my man-cave, I’ll look at opportunities in…Costa Rica!
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:19 pm)#156
Yeah, I think that people ignore or disrespect Mr. Ghosn at their peril. I don’t find him to be a very likable person. He seems a bit arrogant and too quick to believe his own press clippings. But I guess you can get away with that if you produce the results. What he did with Nissan was truly amazing.
So I tend to pay attention to what he is doing. I’m not much in the market for a BEV either, less still a Nissan. Even so, I bet that he has some pretty good market analysis to support this initiative. GM and others should take heed. +1
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:22 pm)By year’s end, BYD also plans to begin selling the e6 in the U.S. at a price expected to be about $40,000.
BYD Chairman Wang Chuanfu has said that the car maker is aiming to become the world’s largest automaker by 2025. Last year, BYD saw sales jump 130 percent to 400,000 vehicles and has set a sales target of 800,000 units for this year.
BYD was the only Chinese car maker to attend the 2010 Detroit Auto Show. Its lineup there included the F3DM, the world’s first dual-mode plug-in hybrid.
A BYD official commented that the e6, as an important part of the company’s “new energy” strategy, will help China’s domestic car makers compete against international rivals such as the Chevrolet Volt, which comes to China in 2011 after its U.S. debut later this year, and the plug-in electric Nissan Leaf, slated for a 2012 launch.
The electric era is coming ever closer. — Vivian Jin, Correspondent
___________________________________
800,000 units for the year? If the 130% increase per year sales rate is actual. The Volt factory may have a bigger consumer demand than previously expected. I wish BYD and NGMCO well on this.
Imagine the feeling of electric drive cruise control. Silently powering along with the high torque electric motor smoothing out the hills.
=D~
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:26 pm)#160
40K? No sale. 205 mile range and 1 hour to fully charge sound pretty impressive though, if true. Does that mean charging at 480 volts or something?
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:26 pm)I don’t understand why the cost to the end user should go up. That seems counterintuitive to me. I’d be interested in knowing why that’s the prediction.
Here’s one you might find funny. We have a water shortage. So the city came up with this byzantine rate structure based on the amount of water consumed by the street address years ago for select months. It was just ridiculously hard to implement, made no rational sense, and ended up charging households who used less water are more than those which used more.
A bunch of us started screaming and told them to just raise the price and let the market take care of the “shortage”. They did just that, and then were completely blown away when demand dropped far more than predicted. (You gotta love it). So then the water department was short of revenue and they decided that they needed to raise rates more, somehow oblivious to the fact that this would just drop demand more, and that they might want to think of dropping the price. Sometimes simple concepts seem difficult to grasp.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:33 pm)#170
Is that the interior of the BYD? Lose the white stripes is my fashion advice. Ugh!
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:37 pm)I doubt it. The only place you can really do that is a power substation….lol
But I could be wrong. Too many unknowns of the car and it’s requirements.
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:40 pm)Hey wait a minute….
Doesen’t Toyota have a commercial out saying they will have a full BEV? I think it’s with the one where they show a Hydrogen Fuled thingy…..yeah.
So, WTF are they talkin about? Isn’t that just shooting their BEV product in the foot?
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:49 pm)Local power outages; what a bunch of baloney.
+1
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:51 pm)Two potential scenarios for review -
Three people return to their homes from work, put on their robes put some clothes into their respective dryers, start up both their clothes washers and dishwashers, toss some chicken to thaw in their microwaves and jump in the shower, while their Volts charge…A-R-M-A-G-E-D-D-O-N, fer sure.
A transformer was replaced in front of my house a few months ago. Every things underground here. A truck with a fairly small crane pulled it out and another was dropped in. In a few hours all was back to normal. The world did not end.
One of these stories is actually true.
Jan 20th, 2010 (7:52 pm)It’s funny that Toyota is saying that we don’t have power capacity when they are part of the reason we have a over capacity… their dumping of products … selling at below cost here while keeping all US products out of their market has put so many American factories unfairly out of business … we do indeed have a over capacity from these shut down industrial sites.
The vast majority of commuters in the large city where I live have a commute that is less than 10 miles each way. Mine is only 9 miles each way. Perfect for the VOLT technology… I do want a Utility vehicle like the Granite .. or something that comes closer to my Buick Rendezvous… it is easy to get used to the 110 cubic feet of cargo space of my Buick…
Jan 20th, 2010 (8:06 pm)Right that. And there weren’t really any shortages. It’s what happens when you’re dumb enough to believe that business people won’t collude. All those “blackouts” were manufactured shortages, orchestrated by the traders at Enron working in conjunction with traders at other firms.
If FERC under the Bush Administration hadn’t been so star struck with the fantasy of the efficient market hypothesis it might have taken its collective head out of its butt and actually paid attention to what was happening. Who could have imagined that if you let people make bags of money by colluding they’ll try and game the market? LOL