Cadillac Converj
Cadillac XTS Platinum
Yesterday GM unveiled a plugin hybrid version of its next generation Cadillac flagship, the XTS platinum. Its fairly certain that the gas-version of the car will go into production but whether the plugin hybrid will isn’t clear.
GM has been developing the 2-mode plugin hybrid drivetrain since 2006, and I even had the chance to drive a mule version (see post) last summer. Originally destined to appear in the Saturn VUE, and transiently slotted for a Buick SUV, where this drivetrain will finally make its retail appearance is not known.
GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz did tell reporters at the Auto Show that GM will build a plugin hybrid and said that car will arrive prior to the Cadillac XTS, possibly in 2011.
“There will be others that will launch before this,” he said about the plugin Cadillac. “That technology can and will be moved to something else. Think possibly Equinox or Terrain, but we’re not ready to announce that or say when it’s coming out.”
Lutz indicated that GM plans to offer a portfolio of electrified vehicles.
“One thing’s for sure,” he said. ”We will have a wide array of plug-in hybrids.”
Converj?
Bob Lutz also was quoted as saying the Converj would be built, however later Cadillac global product director John Howell called the statement premature.
Howell told reporters GM still needed to develop a business case for the Converj and determine if the Voltec drivetrain would be powerful enough and operate smoothly enough for the Cadillac experience.
“We want it to be a true luxury driving experience,” Howell said.
Also unknown is how large the market for a Cadillac EREV coupe would be.
Bob Lutz told GM-Volt.com that even if the Converj and the plugin XTS were both built they wouldn’t compete with one another.
“They would not (compete),” he said. “One’s a coupe, and basically an EREV like Volt. The other is a large, conventional hybrid, with possibly 10 miles of electric range.”
Source (Detroit News) and (MLIVE)
This entry was posted on Wednesday, January 13th, 2010 at 7:20 am and is filed under Converj, PHEV. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+10
Jan 13th, 2010 (7:24 am)From the article:
“One thing’s for sure,” he said. ”We will have a wide array of plug-in hybrids.”
I absolutely agree with this statement. It should be in every vehicle they make.
+3
Jan 13th, 2010 (7:26 am)About the Converj.
Do people who buy Cadillacs want a sportier version or just the complete luxury version?
Both cars look stunning.
+12
Jan 13th, 2010 (7:48 am)I believe plug-in hybrids will have an initial peak of interest, but then demand will quickly fade. 10 miles of electric range is not enough to justfy the hassle of plugging and unplugging. The average yearly mileage won’t be that much more.
But demand for EREVs will increase rapidly once people really understand the implications. The same will be true for other strong plug-ins (with 30 miles of range or more).
Bottom line: It’s not the plug that matters, it’s the all-electric range.
-3
Jan 13th, 2010 (7:49 am)Cadillac retracts promise to produce Converj
looks Bob Lutz is over talking ….
seems no converj
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (7:52 am)I keep saying this. This should be the goal (making those current take credits cash as purchase would speet this along).
If every car built had 12 miles AER, then we’d be mostly oil independent. When Oil spikes folks can charge their car during the day at work, when they get home before going back out, soccer Moms as they come and go could plug in at their garage etc. And the technology that would result from this commitment would lead eventually to affordable 500 mile batteries. This would create millions of jobs by keeping trillions of dollars in our economy that would otherwise go to our enemies to import oil.
Everything that Obama has done or tried to do so far pretty much has been a huge negative, fortunately he hasn’t suceeded in much, especially cap and trade. There are 3 things I wish he would do that fits with his ideology
1) Push a law that all 90% of new cars should have 12 mile AER by 2014.
2) Double the number of EV Credits and make them cash at purchase from 2012 through 2014.
3) Put a graduated unemployment tax on companies that outsource jobs offshore that is tied to current unemployement rate, since these companies are creating unemployment (He promised during campaign to take away tax credits/loopholes for thes companies, but he must have forgotten).
+8
Jan 13th, 2010 (7:59 am)I wonder sometimes if the GM top brass ever gets together to work out what to say when asked about the “company strategy”.
Off topic, but still interesting:
Last night on our local news, there was a story about the Detroit Auto Show and about Chevy in particular. It is important, because the Lordstown plant that will produce the Cruze is located here in Youngstown. They interviewed Chevrolet Division Chief Jim Campbell. He was talking about the Cruze and then he said:
“For Chevrolet, our strategy is what we call gas friendly to gas free. We’ll have a pickup truck this summer. It will run on biodiesel. We also have hybrids on Silverado and Tahoe. In addition, we have a fleet of Equinoxes that are driving gas free on hydrogen fuel cells.”
But not a single word about the Volt!!!!!
And he is still talking about fuel cells??????
Don’t you think the head of the Chevy division should at least mention the car that the rest of the GM brass thinks is so important?????
Here is a link to the story:
http://www.wytv.com/content/news/local/story/Cruze-Called-Key-Element-for-GM-Growth/ErPVhiYqBEmAi7xSfH_6SQ.cspx
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:05 am)All of these cars being discussed are concept cars. It is unlikely that they will appear on the market any time soon. It is also unlikely that they will appear with all features and designs as in the concept.
GM’s marketing needs to get Lutz reigned in. He can’t be making forward-looking statements like this with little/no coordination. The dude’s a loose cannon.
The old GM is alive and well. All these silos that don’t talk to each other will kill them. I get the feeling that the old guard is just biding it’s time to emerge when they go IPO and get rid of Whitacre.
+9
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:17 am)Well, it is a little bit disappointing, getting mixed signals. But it underscores the importance of the Volt. The Volt needs to make constant progress. Seems like some form of luxury vehicle would be good to get some level of selfsufficiency (profit). This is something that GM is supposed to know about. Our main job here is to give feedback to GM. Their job is to configure vehicles in a way that they can assemble and sell, hopefully at a profit. It almost sounds like they don’t know what will work. Maybe they are testing the “Volt pool” to see if it can be divided into different market segments. For me, personally, the Volt IS my Cadillac.
+4
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:19 am)I’m hoping for an early introduction of the GM 2-mode hybrid on a vehicle the size of an Equinox. I love the Volt, but it is too small for my needs and a 2-mode hybrid Equinox would be perfect for me.
I’m waiting for GM to build this – all my new vehicles for the last 30 years have been GM.
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:19 am)““There will be others that will launch before this,” he said about the plugin Cadillac. “That technology can and will be moved to something else. Think possibly Equinox or Terrain, but we’re not ready to announce that or say when it’s coming out.”
————–
Maybe they’re thinking about the Cadillac SRX?
http://www.cadillac.com/srxCrossover/gallery/
-6
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:32 am)Is it just me? I would rather have only the Volt for a few years and have it be very successful, than have the Volt plus six other vehicles and they all fail because of poor execution on the other six vehicles. I wonder if there are political battles going on inside GM? It couldn’t possibly have anything to do with strong leader after strong leader being broomed out by the Washington DC crowd? Maybe Nancy Pelosi will take over and provide solid leadership (not).
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:33 am)I agree with *parts* of almost every post so far, but this one strikes a good balance. Most of the issues become moot if the Volt isn’t their FIRST priority. And yes, it’ll be MY Caddy too!
Plugs on a wide range of vehicles WILL have importance, just to get the public used to them – acceptance, but the AER really is the biggest selling point – that and EREV backing up that range. JMO.
GO VOLT!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:38 am)I don’t think it follows that if they field a range of vehicles that they can’t all be made well.
The politics are a different matter and usually tear us away from the thread.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+5
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:40 am)Anyone with the money and willing to buy a Cadillac plug-in would also be a potential buyer for a Volt. If GM announces Cadillac plug-in rollout dates, those potential Volt buyers may wait for the Cadillac which would reduce Volt Sales. GM needs to STOP making announcements and start selling the Volt i.e. take deposits.
GM should make other plug-in rollout announcements only after the Volt buying frenzy dies or slows down.
NPNS!
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:42 am)Thanks for the link. I don’t think that it’s OT, really. It does show just how much education (some of it at the top, some at the local news level) and COORDINATION still needs to occur.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+11
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:43 am)Now that the Volt is 80% production ready. The next logical step is to use the same EREV Delta platform in the Orlando. Use the same battery and the same 150 HP 3 phase electric motor FWD. Market it as 30 miles electric with a 10 gal gasoline/E85 1.4L extender. Leave the aero as it is and market the 0-60 at 9.5 seconds.
This vehicle will be wildly popular and easy money for GM. Let the new buicks feed the demand for moderatly priced luxury. An electric Cadillac is not a priority.
“We will listen and act quickly.”
Fritz Henderson ~ 2009
=D~
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:45 am)Yesterday we read “Driving can be done in pure electric mode under most driving conditions, with the car’s goal to deplete the battery’s grid-stored energy over a 20 mile range. When extra power is demanded such as during acceleration and hill climbs, the combustion engine can power on.” Some people thought this mean a 20 mile AER, but others were discerning enough to see the implication of intermittent ICE operation for extra acceleration.
Today we read “The other [XTS] is a large, conventional hybrid, with possibly 10 miles of electric range.” If the XTS uses 50% of its 8 kwh battery for drawdown, that means it gets 2.5 miles per kwh. Now that is a real world number that probably includes running all those electrically operated comfort and convenience loads, like AC.
Now those numbers add up.
+3
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:56 am)What seems clear to me is that the Volt needs to be successful for all of the other plug-in possibilities to get off the ground. Thank goodness there has been a clear purpose and incredibly steady resolve to get the Volt built and out the door. I don’t see that with the other plug-in products that have been mentioned. Let’s help make the Volt a smashing success so the other projects will be a no-brainer for GM and the other auto companies.
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:02 am)AMEN!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:11 am)Oh, boy, looks like they haven’t fully thought through their product plans. They really do need to ensure that they’ve matched the right power train to the right chassis configuration to please the typical Cadillac consumer.
Can the 2 mode hybrid deliver the performance they want?
Can the existing Voltec deliver the performance they want?
If not, what can be done to either or both to achieve the performance they want, and at what cost?
It seems that Fisker Automotive has come up with the configuration luxury auto buyers want. Perhaps GM can put their On-star and other networking tech in that vehicle, as they are already providing the internal combustion engine.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:13 am)The grid won’t support mass daytime charging. This would lead to frequent black-outs, especially in the summer. Remember the huge blackout a few years ago?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Blackout_of_2003
“The Northeast Blackout of 2003 was a massive widespread power outage that occurred throughout parts of the Northeastern and Midwestern United States and Ontario, Canada on Thursday, August 14, 2003, at approximately 4:15 p.m.”
I remember that day. It was very hot. Imagine what would happen on a hot day like that if there were 10-million PHEV-10s charging at work.
By contrast, if most people charge only at night, our grid will support tens of millions of plug-ins.
Peak electrical usage on a summer day is roughly twice the demand at night. So there’s huge amounts of unused electrical generating capacity at night, but hardly any during the day. As plug-ins go mainstream, utilities will do everything possible to discourage day-time charging, including raising electrical rates during the day if necessary.
People always under-estimate the amount of time it takes to change the infrastructure. Any significant changes to the grid will take at least 10 years to implement, probably more. By 2020, Li/Ion battery prices should be 1/4 of what they are today. So I believe PHEV-10s only makes sense short-term in small numbers. EREVs will be a long-term solution, since most people will only need to charge them at night.
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:21 am)Agreed, but it will be a very long time to get tens of millions of plugins in consumer hands. Foresight is good, but we also need to keep our eye on the ball (Volt) to get it off the ground.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:36 am)My father is a new car salesman of GM products, including Cadillac, in Central Arkansas. Traditional customers are only looking for the luxury side of Cadillac; however, there is a growing, younger class of people that want the sportier side of Cadillac: see the XLR-V and CTS-V. These are really beginning to sell well in Arkansas – even in comparison to the Chevrolet Corvette.
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:39 am)Ah, I get it. It is possibly a generational thing. Thanks. I was really curious. Sounds like they would both sell in that case.
+6
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:44 am)Like the supposed lithium raw material shortage, the inability to charge PHEV’s during the day is a myth. Now in some areas during hot weather, the margin between current generation capacity and current load is insufficient to cover the additional load of PHEV’s. For these periods, folks would have to operate their ICE supplemental energy generator. Hence it is a non-problem even if the powers that be prevent building sufficient additional domestic power sources to get us off foreign oil. On the other hand, we have time for the voters to throw the rascals out.
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:45 am)I sort of agree. I think EREVs make more sense when the costs come down then plug in hybrids, and those costs will come down within a couple years I’m sure.
But I think EREVs can also be configured as 20 mile AER if that brings down the battery costs because there are folks that would appeal to (soccer moms). I think a 15-20 mile AER EREV can complete with the 12 mile AER PRIUS that is coming out.
But I think the best thing is to get as many cars as possible to have that because even though it doesn’t reduce all imports over night, what it gives is freedom to people if there are oil shortages, wars, embargos. I think it is a huge thing for national security if everyone could drive without oil even short distances. And it will lead to eventually not needing to import oil.
I think a minimum 12 mile AER on all new cars is a great first step.
-2
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:51 am)+5
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:55 am)I was just making the point that it will be a while before enough plugins will be on the road to effect the grid.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:56 am)Other than the capacity of the battery pack, I would like to know the difference between the “2-Mode Plug-In Hybrid” system and the current “2-Mode Hybrid” system currently in use for the Tahoe and Silverado models.
I’ve driven the current system and it is really smooth when in all-electric mode just toodling around the parking lot. When you move into traffic and get up to about 15 MPH, then the V8 engine starts up with a soft shudder, (like a regular automatic car shifting from 1st to 2nd), and it drives in gas+electric mode and then eventually all-gas mode.
Everytime I drive one, I wonder why it can’t stay in all-electric mode just a little bit longer. I suppose this is how the “2-Mode Plug-In” will work. It will use the electric mode longer and less on gas.
Now, since the Tahoe is already setup for this, my question is: “Why not make it a ‘Plug-In’ hybrid now and bump up the MPG’s to say 35-40? Then you would have the perfect soccer mom vehicle again….
+3
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:00 am)You should say the Current grid wont. Smart grid technology will be here before mass daytime charging of plugins. The Electric Company will LOVE to have a nice load they can control — like plugins. Possibly even using some of that battery, or (the Volt?) as a generator.
About people not plugging in plugins. Its a habit thing. I still use my key to unlock my G5 — even though I just need to press a button. Once people get into the habit of reaching over and plugging in, it will get done.
10,000,000 Plugins? WoW! In 2020?
Sorry to go off topic… :>( Not sure what happened with my post above
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:02 am)I wonder if GM might ever consider an agreement to sell Fisker’s upscale EREVs through the Cadillac division? Beyond GM supplying the gas engines do we know of any other engineering overlaps between the Fisker and Voltec platforms?
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:12 am)Building out the grid and building out plugins can happen in parallel. As Tag is saying, there is no way enough PHEV vehicles can be built and distributed to make a significant dent in the grid before the grid can be upgraded.
There may be spot shortages (of electrical capacity) if a bunch of PHEV’s come online together in the same neighborhood, but, these will also be in the places that smart charging infrastructure is being built right now.
I don’t see grid peak capacity as a huge problem for two decades or so. We got plenty of time. OnCor in my area will have smart meters fully deployed by 2014. They are already 1/3 complete.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:13 am)I’m pretty sure it’s not that simple for everyone else. For one example, 100% electric drive provides performance and luxury benefits, whether you are in a segmented AER or not.
I think what matters is different for different folks and in some cases complex. I suspect that ‘s part of why we are starting to see a proliferation of different drivetrain and operation configurations that include electric drive. I don’t think that manufacturers have done more than scratch the surface of what’s possible now with using electric drive in the mix.
The only certain thing is the continued din of production foot dragging on the part of manufacturers.
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:20 am)Don’t the announcements of the past week seem to suggest otherwise?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:32 am)It would add $15k to the cost of the car?.. probably only feasible in a luxury vehicle.
+3
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:38 am)I think a Plug-in Cadillac SRX would be very warmly recieved and a good vehicle to re-coup engineering expenses. Ahhh heck, just make every model a plug-in and be done with it!
+4
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:40 am)First few years of Plug ins there won’t be enough to matter. Over time this will take care of itself. Eventually the electric companies can control when cars charge to provide lower rates.
But if I charge my car overnight when the Utility tells me its ok, then I drive to work and the utility oks it to charge between 7:00 and 11AM before the Peak July AC picks up, it will only help to level out the demand and lower electric rates for everyone.
The Best solution is to charge different rates at different times of the day, second best solution is to let the utility control when charge.
July rates example
noon – 6pm 8c kwh
6pm – 10pm 6c kwh
10pm- 7am 4c kwH
Having meters to charge like above will spread out demand.
Having an slightly lower rate to let the utility control when your car is charged would help also
+5
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:43 am)Dave G #21 Says:
”
The grid won’t support mass daytime charging. This would lead to frequent black-outs, especially in the summer. Remember the huge blackout a few years ago?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Blackout_of_2003
“The Northeast Blackout of 2003 was a massive widespread power outage that occurred throughout parts of the Northeastern and Midwestern United States and Ontario, Canada on Thursday, August 14, 2003, at approximately 4:15 p.m.”
I remember that day. It was very hot. Imagine what would happen on a hot day like that if there were 10-million PHEV-10s charging at work.
By contrast, if most people charge only at night, our grid will support tens of millions of plug-ins.
Peak electrical usage on a summer day is roughly twice the demand at night. So there’s huge amounts of unused electrical generating capacity at night, but hardly any during the day. As plug-ins go mainstream, utilities will do everything possible to discourage day-time charging, including raising electrical rates during the day if necessary.
People always under-estimate the amount of time it takes to change the infrastructure. Any significant changes to the grid will take at least 10 years to implement, probably more. By 2020, Li/Ion battery prices should be 1/4 of what they are today. So I believe PHEV-10s only makes sense short-term in small numbers. EREVs will be a long-term solution, since most people will only need to charge them at night. ”
==========================
Yes, I do remember that day…….
But if you read the article, most of the blame for the outage is placed on tree trimming maintenance not being done, computer software failures, and human error, not massive overload conditions.
I have to agree with Tag, it will be many years before the number of BEV, PHEV, and E-REV vehicles will really make a dent in the power useage of the country.
This does not mean that I think the utilities should not be working to upgrade their systems, because I do. Or else, we should be encouraged to put in-home electrical generating to help with the ever increasing electrical requirments we all have.
JMHO
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:44 am)LOL, I like the way you think! – BUT let’s not lose focus on the Volt!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:47 am)It seems gm is using these “media leaks” get a feeling of who is their target audience for an erev Cadillac.
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:48 am)Ditto! +1
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:48 am)That’s not it. The Tahoe Hybrid already touches $50,000 — that’s my point. (and why they aren’t selling real fast) I think it couldn’t cost much more to make it a true ‘plug-in’ hybrid, and if they make enough of them hopefully the costs would come down to keep it UNDER $50 large.
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:51 am)It would seem like this site and the “site that will not be named” are the best sources of that kind of feedback. Media “pundits” shouldn’t carry much weight, but real people may.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:57 am)The Tahoe Hybrid 4×4 already ‘starts at’ $53k and they aren’t selling very well. Another 15k is $68k ‘starting price’. Yikes! That puts your payment at just under $1,500/ month!
That $7,500 tax rebate isn’t looking so good at these prices.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:03 am)Basically what I think is going on here is that GM feels the pressure from Whitcare, tax payers, the government and whoever to become profitable ASAP. They feel that since the profitability of an EREV in a Chevy or even Buick is so sketchy, they need to go for Cadillac for it’s profit margins being able to cover $20,000 worth of Voltec stuff, but it’s very questionable if Cadillac customers are going to be into it, at least in any mass quantities.
The Orlando is a minivan. When was the last time you bought a Chevy minivan? People just don’t buy them. They need to get Voltec in vehicles that people are going to want to buy with or without Voltec (that’s what they’re thinking at least). They also don’t want to cannibalize Equinox sales (which is quickly becoming a bread and butter vehicle) by putting it in a Equinox.
A lot of catch-22s.
GM really wants Voltec to be a success as its their only ace in the hole against vehicles like Toyota’s FT-CH that will get 60 mpg and cost about $16,000. They know they are losing the “efficiency for the money” war and the’ve gotta figure out a game plan. It sounds like for now they disagree on what that game plan should be.
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:03 am)GM needs to produce new vehicles for each of its brands and that is what this is all about. Eventually we will need all electric vehicles because we just can’t depend on petroleum being there when we need it. Just like Road Range Anxiety there will be anxiety over a potential war or conflict which will cut off the supply of petroleum. There will be the elite among the population that will be able to afford the high price of gasoline when this happens. By providing us with two types of vehicles, GM gives us a way to phase into all EV travel.
I for one hope that does not happen and even if it doesn’t just the thought of it will get people up tight and want to pay a vehicle that will be able to get them moving with out excessive use of gasoline.
There will be those of us who see this as inevitable and will buy an EREV or BEV well in advance. I hope to be in the position to purchase a Volt when they come to my state. The sooner the better as I see it.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:06 am)The plug is what will enable upgrade of the battery when more powerful ones become affordable.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:09 am)Agreed. 1000%
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:11 am)I believe the plug in 2 mode conventional hybrid system works best for vehicles like the Cadillacs. Since the battery will need frequent charging with all the extra electronic gizmos including the MRC which will be incredible, because the energy from the ice is more efficient using a parallel hybrid system and you will need the ice to support all the electronics until batteries get much more capable. The erev series hybrid system works best with vehicles that can go on all electric for a reasonable range, and don’t have as many electronics to support.
I hope G.M.’s portfolio of product mix is carefully thought out for present and future production.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:11 am)Or we could just use an wireless power transfer pad on the floor of the garage.. just park over it and the recharging is automatic. The technology now allows efficiencies of 95% for this.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:15 am)Tag, all this time you’ve been saying “Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road”… now you say this? I’m getting confused
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:24 am)By “it” I was referring to the VOLT. Oh, wait, now I get it! (lol). See “improved” signature (g).
HTH,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:33 am)That being said, I am at a loss to see how they can make an ‘affordable’ Chevy 2-mode Plug-In. If the ‘cheaper’ 2-mode can’t be made for less, how can they be planning a more expensive system to be used across all GM makes?
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:35 am)Lutz: The Converj will be built.
Howell: GM still needed to develop a business case for the Converj and determine if the Voltec drivetrain would be powerful enough and operate smoothly enough for the Cadillac experience.
Say goodbye to Howell. He will follow Wagoner and Henderson with the White House praising the ex global product director. The board of directors have no choice but to replace him.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:36 am)I’ve come to believe this may be the great “sleeper” issue. When Frank Weber first started talking about the luxury provided by an electric drive I wasn’t sure why he was going there — and having only driven in the EV-1 maybe twice, and that many years ago so the experience has faded — I didn’t have any firsthand experience to provide a context. But if EVs can be sold as an ultimate luxury ride then the price premium has something other than gas savings to support it.
Could be a super selling point, though it may suggest that rather than something like the Converj an EREV might be a better fit for a Buick sedan where 0-60 times are not so important, though in actual fact there probably isn’t a Cadillac driver who would actually want an incredibly fast 0-60 time after trying it once or twice when in EV mode so the performance in CS mode is probably a canard.
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:40 am)I nthis fucked up economy and especially here in CA, if they both were available (Volt , Converj) what do you think will be the deciding factor for the poor folks here?
Converj? Volt?
Converj? Volt?
Which will allow them best bang for their retirement buck or best bang for their furloughed/ cut in pay self?
Coverj? possibly in the $48,000.00 to $52,000.00 or the Volt $40,000.00? A few more thousand for the Converj and you’re in Fiskar & Model S territory.
Sure some will have a hardon for the Converj, but let’s be real here and just get the Volt out!!!
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:41 am)#8
Me too. Well said. +1
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:42 am)This really was clear by the look on Frank’s face when he spoke at VoltNation I. He was almost giggly – and continues to be. So if this is a “sleeper issue” (and I agree that it is) I hope GM wakes it up soon!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:45 am)Not to be too cynical, but I’m thinking all the electrification efforts we’re seeing at the moment have everything to do with the new CAFE standards, and maybe a little with the new ozone standards, but very little to do with the price of gasoline.
Government regulations are OK, but price signals are the most and effective mechanism available. Ultimately government decrees not backed by appropriate pricing will never be as remotely effective as they need to be. One of the few who will talk about this and the need for a gas tax, and talk about it he does, is Bob Lutz.
-1
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:48 am)Republicans are just stalling making it difficult to pass legislation and attempting to halt Obama’s administration. It will taking longer for him to deliver on his campaign promises but he is committed to ever one of them. Once health care and jobs legislation has been passed, we will see improvements in the other areas. Right now health care for every American is the most important issue before Congress and President Obama and employment is equally important. The loans to GM survivability can easily be considered a success now and that has to do in large part with saving job; GM assembly plant worker, dealerships, and companies supplying car and truck parts. GM employees represent a large part of the labor force that keeps local businesses viable. Without them more than GM would have died! To minimize the success of the “bail out” is short sighted. GM success with the Volt and other hybrid plug-in vehicle necessitates rebuilding and conversion of infrastructure such as the electric grid and “gasoline stations” that will provide electric charging ports.
As for your wishes, I too would like to see these done but I don’t see them as pratical. For one thing, your first suggestion would only slow the shift away from petroleum. GM has the right idea in the Volt’s 40 mile AER. Your second suggestion would not be supported by conservatives who are worried the the deficit has become unmanageable. Republicans are screaming now that the administration is spending to much money. A balance is needed in how much the rebate should be. I wish for a slight increase in the federal rebate and a matching rebate from states that can afford to give one. Together it won’t be necessary for the federal government to double the rebate. Your third suggestion is one that Obama campaigned on and is widely accepted by the nations citizens. I agree something needs to be done to stem the flow of job abroad. 85,000 jobs last month is an indication that jobs export is a continuing problem. With so many people unemployed, it is difficult to understand why corporations continue this practice just to increase the corporate profits. The executives of those companies exporting jobs is immoral. This is a problem that can, must, and will be addressed by the administration. With so many problems in our country, we tend to focus on just one problem whichever is our most important. The administration does not have that option; it must address every problem fully or to some degree or it won’t satisfy the population. Lets give htis Pesident a chance to make a difference instead of bashing everything that he does. Our interest in this blog in the electrification of transportation and in particular the Volt. In that regard you should be happy that this administration has seen fit to help insure the survivability of GM and the Volt!
Happy trails to yo ’til we meet again.
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:49 am)Nobody’s perfect (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+4
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:55 am)If we can manage to focus on this, and not the politics, we can avoid a great deal of largely useless conflict here. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:56 am)#51
Well maybe it would be a good way to cut down on the rolling resistance. Kind of like those scooter thingies in Star Wars (not to date myself, LOL). Pretty high tech though. Maybe Gen. 2, hehehe.
-1
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:58 am)AND they should have V2G! (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:04 pm)That is the rub.
The reason the GM truck hybrids have not sold well is because they are simply too much money.
I have said it before and I’ll say it again they need to build an inexpensive ‘work truck’ version profitably selling under $30k to be a success. This would significantly improve the corporate average fuel economy and would put GM trucks back on top.
Whether that is possible is a question which I cannot answer.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:05 pm)#62
Amen. Thank you very much. +1
Is this a great blog or what? Everybody puts up these great comments at about 6:00 am EST, and all I have to do is go down the list, type in a few “Amens”, “Me toos”, and +1s and my work is done. Keep up the great work Dr. Dennis & bloggers. You are the best.
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:07 pm)#64
I’d try it.
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:09 pm)Jim,
the article from which you quoted Chevrolet Division Chief Jim Campbell is titled “Cruze Called “Key Element” for GM Growth”. /that explains the lack of statements about the Volt. The writer probably didn’t repeat any statements he might have made about the Volt; WYTV being a Youngstown station would focus on local commerce.
I noticed on your link, another story about two Youngstown Steel plants; “Sources said a small wave of workers have already been called back this week to prepare the Severstal blast furnace”; “coke manufacturer, ArcelorMittal, is also calling back workers as early as next week, according to the USWA. That plant employs about 180.” The Severstal plant laid of more than 1,000 employees last year. The exact dates of when they will be up and running have not been announced but the article states they are looking at “early March or possibly April”.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:10 pm)#65
Well double Amen to that. I could not agree more. What can they be thinking? +1
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:10 pm)Yep, great place to hang out. Thanks, Lyle!
Be well,
Tagamet
/If you live in Calif, do you get to sleep 3 hours later than I do? (g)
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:13 pm)Light a candle and cross your fingers and toes.
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:18 pm)/bbs
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:23 pm)If your referring to EVER and the Volt, I would agree. They need to test the market before committing to mass production of a new vehicle. We have given them good feedback but the overall acceptance of this technology has not been confirmed yet. The closer we get to roll out of the Volt, the better GM will know where they stand. It might not be a bad idea to take Nissan Leaf like pre-orders for the Volt as others have suggested. Whitacer said “If it goes like we think, the sky’s the limit.” So they are prepared!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-1
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:23 pm)“Lutz indicated that GM plans to offer a portfolio of electrified vehicles.
“One thing’s for sure,” he said. ”We will have a wide array of plug-in hybrids.””
_________________________
An array of $40,000 to $60,000 plug in hybrids to go with their array of $40,000+ non plug in hybrids?
Is it not just completely and totally obvious that Lutz sees hybrids and plug ins as niche halo cars only? Cars for rich greens on the coasts, for granola girls who don’t shave their legs, and the only way these automobiles will ever make sense is if there’s a gas tax?
Lutz does not get it. He absolutely does not get it and at 78 years old I think it’s safe to say he never will.
Lutz is an anchor dragging GM down. Meanwhile . . . Toyota, Ford, Nissan and the rest move forward into an era where hybrids and plug ins will become commonplace.
/Ford has set a company goal of 10% to 25% of their fleet being electrified in the next 10 years.
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:27 pm)I’ll say a prayer after I light that candle and cross my finger, toes, and arms after.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:34 pm)#70
Well I guess so, but we go to bed 3 hours later, so I think it evens out??? But it sure does put us left coasters behind the blogging curve when the threads start in NY, LOL. Remember when people used to say “First!”? For awhile I tried saying “Last!”, but nobody laughed so I gave it up.
Jan 13th, 2010 (12:40 pm)#74
Well I’m trying to modulate my Lutz bashing, because I’m afraid I’ll get on the “No Volt list”, LOL. But you know that I agree.
Yesterday our local paper did a story on this “mini-Prius” thing, complete with a photo. I have to tell you it scares me to death. So I take your point. I would bet you $5 that Toyota will be unable to keep up with the demand.
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:09 pm)I will second and third you in agreement here. Also, if the US passenger car fleet is above 240 million and only about 40 million or so are racking up a lot of mileage and commuting consistently etc., then as the 200 million cars that just sit for 23+ hours a day are converted to some form of electric, that fleet of barely used batteries could be slowly growing source of back-up power for peak electricity demands.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:12 pm)Carcus @ 74
Is it not just completely and totally obvious that Lutz sees hybrids and plug ins as niche halo cars only? Cars for rich greens on the coasts, for granola girls who don’t shave their legs, and the only way these automobiles will ever make sense is if there’s a gas tax?
Lutz does not get it. He absolutely does not get it and at 78 years old I think it’s safe to say he never will.
———————————————————————————
In an attempt to keep things a little bit less slanted…
Is not just completely obvious that there are an awful lot of people out there who don’t give a damn about the environment or where the oil comes from, they just want their big trucks? It isn’t a “I hate the world” thing either, they simply don’t think about it.
There are still more of them than there are ‘greenies’. Mr Lutz knows this and is marketing to the biggest potential group of customers.
Someone saying something contrary to your opinion does not make them an idiot.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:12 pm)VW NCC turbo diesel plug in hybrid Jetta TDI Sportwagen.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Volkswagen-Concepts/246324/
Peanut butter and chocolate, together.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:16 pm)The FT-CH is a good example of how Toyota (and the Japanese in general) work for company longevity.
The twenty-somethings will eat this thing up.
- Modern good looks
- Affordable
- Hybrid
- Lots of High tech down the center stack, with a 10″ screen
Toyota understands that if you get them hooked from the start (even if you don’t make a lot of profit at first) and provide a reliable product, then you’ll retain the majority throughout their car buying lives.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:31 pm)@ MuddyRoverBob
You mean like this big truck? It’s an electric drive diesel hybrid. When do Americans get them some real trucks, instead of the obsolete, deficient full gasser corn ethanol suckers currently pushed on them?
Here’s some plug-ins:
http://www.pluginamerica.org/vehicles/#Commercial-Vehicles
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:35 pm)That’s actually sort of funny, in a sad sort of way. It could be a direct quote of GM’s famous business model from the ’50s and the ’60s. Start them out on a Chevy and they will work their way up through a Pontiac, a Buick, and finally a Cadillac, as their careers and financial capabilities progress. Nothing new under the sun. Too bad they forgot it, or at least how to execute it..
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:38 pm)If the STS comes out in the near future without a plug, it may be better not to call that version platinum since it does not have the best of available features. Save the platinum designation for the top line vehicles that have the most advanced features and it will be credible and sought after. Water it down and platinum will not be respected by car buyers.
I laughed, I even commented “last” myself once in the wee hours of the morning
…sometimes on rare occasions I have to go to Downey. Sometimes things get busy and hectic so if I just pre-type Amen, I agree and plus one, without actually reading the comments, maybe I could drive over, stop by and say hello.
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:42 pm)Even funnier, if some of the accounts are true, it could even represent GM’s business model shortly after taking contol of Cadillac, which if I read correctly was 1910.
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:44 pm)#73
See, Mr. Whitacre and Tagamet are reading off the same script, LOL. Maybe if things go right we’ll have the “Skycar” in Gen. 3. It was widely thought to be “the next big thing” in the ’50s. The little car towed its wings along behind it on a trailer. When you got to an opportune spot, you just folded them into place and took off.
So you could “get the Volt off the ground”, and “the sky’s the limit”. Then you land and plug into V2G.
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:51 pm)So if I stay up 3 hours later, then you get to sleep in? LOL. Yeah, I don’t envy joining the discussion at #100 or higher. I *do* watch the posts as the various members come on line, and with the exception of a few western posters who shoot something off before work, it’s a pretty good clue as to where the post is from (except Europe and Australia)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:52 pm)Yeah, do it. I’d love to see you. Just give me a day or so’s notice so I can be sure to be here.
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:55 pm)Very true, now that you remind me. +1 Where are the Sloans and the Durants, now that we need them? Not to mention Bill Mitchell, “Engine Charlie” Wilson, “Bunkie” Knudsen, Zora Arkus-Duntov, and so many others.
Jan 13th, 2010 (1:55 pm)Sounds great, a mini Volt-Nation – we’ll set a trend
Jan 13th, 2010 (2:04 pm)Boy, you *are* old! I remember the Skycar, but I didn’t think that it ever went into actual production. Back then we were pretty limited to “print media”.
It’s looking a lot like the Volt will actually reach production and, although I read from my *OWN* script, the sky’s the limit.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (2:09 pm)And the pickup truck is where? You are missing the most common personal use truck form on your example link.
Or are you saying I should drive a hybrid dump truck to go camping?
(Sorry for the sarcasm but you sending a link about commercial vehicles when we’re talking about pickups and SUV’s was to say the least a bit silly.)
I’m not going to get into a fight, just trying to feed in some perspective. Although I do support the eventual electrification of ‘the fleet’, conventional vehicles are going to pay the bill to get there and whether some here like it or not their sales NEED to be good to allow the Volt and the Converj any chance at all.
Mr Lutz understands this very well.
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (2:27 pm)Off Topic:
In about 10 months or so, the first VOLT’s will start arriving if all goes well. I think Lyle should start working on something like this:
What do you guys think? HHHmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Jan 13th, 2010 (2:29 pm)The Converj is sharp… ALMOST a great design.
Having said that, It is the best design I have seen out of GM in a long time. The only problem is that damn grill! It just wrecks the whole effect and the hard shape is a negative for aerodynamics.
I hope it goes into production… after the reality of the wind tunnel settles in on GMs design team.
11 months to my Volt!
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (2:32 pm)The whole point of forming a company is to make profits. Otherwise, the company is socialist which is usually government run. (Oh wait, GM *is* government owned.)
If Americans cannot compete in the global labor market, then, the corporations have to source the labor where they can. You are free to be jobless and homeless if you cannot compete. You are also free to overthrow democracy and let the socialist government take care of you. (Say goodbye to personal transportation and other freedoms, in that case.)
It is a global economy. All jobs support all nations no matter where they are physically located. Protectionism has no place in this century and is counter-productive.
Feel free to give negative votes. Shooting the messenger usually doesn’t get you anywhere, however.
Jan 13th, 2010 (2:36 pm)Very nicely done!
Be well,
Tagamet
/someone has too much time on their hands (and it ain’t Lyle)(g)
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (3:15 pm)You referred to “big trucks”, not light duty personal pickup truck and SUVs, and I showed you some big trucks that provide actual added industrial production value in the real world and just happen to use some electric drive and/or are plug ins for boring superior results, that’s all. Carry on…
Jan 13th, 2010 (3:24 pm)“Howell told reporters GM still needed to develop a business case for the Converj and determine if the Voltec drivetrain would be powerful enough and operate smoothly enough for the Cadillac experience.”
This really begs the question: Is this guy off the reservation or what “business case” did GM determine for the Volt? If they can’t see a “business case” for the Converj, how did see one for the Volt?
Was Lutz just thinking of halo’s and taking some “green” business from the Prius? Does they think it is some sort of foolish fluke of poor buying decision making that brought the Prius’ success?
+2
Jan 13th, 2010 (3:47 pm)I am sorry. Too funny.
Toyota does not know how to catch young American buyers or even young buyers in general.
Look the Scion Brand
Look at the Prius
Look at the Toyota Cars
Look at the Lexus Cars
Maybe the FT-CH will change things but I don’t think so…
The FT-CH will be seen by the young as what it is…
a cheap commuter car for someone in thier 30s-40s who has a real car at home. B-segment practical cars have never been popular with people in thier 20s, regardless of brand. Outside of bargin basement models (Think Hyundai Accent at ~10K)
Why? A number of reasons
Most Late Teens – 20s year old think more of the 3-4 person car experience. They are not yet old enough to realize that 90% of the time spent in a typical car is spent alone.
Most Late Teens -20s year old are very concerned with image. A Toyota Hybrid is not the image that most of these people want to be assosicated with… its got niether speed, prestige, or luxury and the resulting sex appeal. (I work with a great deal of college graduates buying thier first car. Not one yet has chosen a B-market hatch. The closest to this was a Civic Si)
Lastly, Hatchbacks are exremely unpopular in the US. The Prius is about as hatchbacky as most people want to go… sad but true. Yet the majority of teens-20s need -one- car that can do “everything” which leads to more large C-Small D segement or CUV buying then is actually warranted.
Now, this is not to say that the FT-CH will be unpopular. It may be extremely popular (especially if they are targeting ~50,000 a year), but given Toyota’s history I predict its likely to be mostly 30-40 year olds purchasing thier households #2 or #3 car.
Jan 13th, 2010 (4:03 pm)Well, that explains why domestic mfgrs seem to be at a loss when it comes to this segment of the market. I see more Scion tC, xB xA and Honda Fit’s than I do a small compact Ford of Chevy. neither have a car that will adequately compete with those cars. Look around and you’ll mostly see Civiv/Fit or Scion something in the small cars around you. As for the hatchback, then why did GM make the Volt a Hatch? It didn’t hurt Prius sales any that it’s a Hatch? Nor the H Fit.
In all honesty, for some reason, the Scion brand is driven by current college students and employed commuters. Plus many 30 somethings.
Sure the “Graduates” want a bigger car after they get their high paying job, wouldn’t you? Then later in their life they’ll realize that they only need a small car to commute or to take the kids to school, so the Fit will suffice.
/Isn’t that first pic above a hatchback? I guess it won’t sell then.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (4:24 pm)“Lastly, Hatchbacks are exremely unpopular in the US.”
This is the part that made me snort milk out of my nose and disregard everything else you said as well.
Perhaps you are confusing what is demanded in the US with the actual, sad choices that dealerships push.
Jan 13th, 2010 (4:34 pm).
Also, that must explain why the North America truck of the year, just announced, is a commercial delivery van, which was on the linked list of plug in electric drive vehicles. The F 150 pickup truck won last year, but that’s last year. Welcome to the post-vehicle industry-apocolypse world.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/detroit-auto-show-ford-fusion-hybrid-wins-car-of-the-year/
Jan 13th, 2010 (4:43 pm)Here’s another article on the award winning 2010 North America Truck of the Year:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1117303320100111?type=marketsNews
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (4:44 pm)On a site where people call call a 1.4 litre engine huge, a 3/4 ton pickup IS a big truck.
Jan 13th, 2010 (5:03 pm)Sounds about right. This isn’t anything new.
My first car (early 70s when I was 18) was a beat-up Ford. But, it had a V-8 and bucket seats. My first new car to replace it (I was 21 with a good job) was an Orange Metallic, V-6, 4-speed, Offy intake, mag wheels, dual exhaust, Holley 4bbl Olds Starfire. Got dusted too many times even with the speed equipment, so, I sold the Olds and bought a used ’70 LS5 4-speed OMG rag-top ‘Vette a couple years later. I was 23 at the time.
My next car (30+ years later), the Volt, is a little (heck, a LOT) different. Yeah, it’s a 4-banger, but, it has electric traction. It better not be slow. Doubt I’ll be disappointed.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (5:13 pm)There was a story a while back that, when polled, Hummer drivers thought they were more patriotic and morally superior to other drivers. Had to do with making a statement about American values.
So yeah, there are different interpretations about vehicles.
Jan 13th, 2010 (5:38 pm)Tagamet #91 Says:
“Boy, you *are* old! I remember the Skycar, but I didn’t think that it ever went into actual production. Back then we were pretty limited to “print media”.
It’s looking a lot like the Volt will actually reach production and, although I read from my *OWN* script, the sky’s the limit.
Be well,
Tagamet”
==================================
Here are the latest versions of the sky car:
http://www.terrafugia.com/Video_News_Release.html
http://www.parajetautomotive.com/
But are they EREV?????
Jan 13th, 2010 (6:08 pm)2011 Buick Regal sedan, 2012 Chevrolet Malibu Sedan, 2012 Chevrolet Impala Sedan, 2011 Buick Lacrosse Sedan- EPII Platforum, 2nd Gen two-mode Hybrid system, Voltec 1# /Voltec 3# Chevrolet Volt, Chevrolet Orland, GMC Granite, Chevrolet Cruze Sedan/Cruze Hatchback, Buick Small Sedan/Small Crossover- Voltec 2# (Delta II Platforum), Gamma II Platforum, Aveo/ Spark, Voltec 2#/Voltec 3#, Cadillac Line-up, 2 Gen Two Mode Plug in Hybrid System and Voltec 2# and Voltec 3#. Electric- Rear-Wheel Drive. Not make this up.
Jan 13th, 2010 (6:39 pm)#100
Yup, me too. And lots of younger people driving the Scions. I thought it was a dumb idea when Toyota started it. Shows you what I know. They are selling a LOT of Fits, Scions, and Yarises in SoCal. Not to mention Priuses. I hate it, but there it is.
Jan 13th, 2010 (6:43 pm)#101
There is a belief that hatchbacks are unpopular. I cannot understand why. My next car will be one for sure. As I said above, they are selling pretty well in LA.
Jan 13th, 2010 (6:48 pm)OOpps.
I forgot about the Yaris’s.
That’s funny, I thought it was a dumb idea too but hey, I never said I was the sharpest tool in the back shed.
Jan 13th, 2010 (6:49 pm)#107
VERY COOL. +1 for sure. As to the EREV, I saw a review of an actual electric light general aviation airplane the other day. Talk about range anxiety! I’m almost thinking that I saw a hybrid as well. So maybe it’s coming.
Jan 13th, 2010 (6:50 pm)#108
BRING IT ON!!!
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (6:51 pm)Hey Noel,
Is this Colin Chapman to the nth degree or what?
Interesting video and take on the solution:
Edison 2 X-Prize
http://www.edison2.com/
/it’s not Car 2.0, it’s car 0.2!
Jan 13th, 2010 (7:00 pm)OT but battery tech related:
http://www.technologyreview.com/business/24352/?nlid=2664
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (7:13 pm)Sigh.
Another high on the horse EV/Enviromentalist who has decided that US consumers would want just want they want, if it was only offered to them…
Lets look at some models shall we?
Ford Focus- Sold as a Hatchback and Sedan. Ford dropped the hatchback due to poor sales. Hatchback premium was ~700 dollars.
Subaru Impreza- 5 Door option is only 500 extra. Yet they sell more sedan Impreza than Hatchbacks.
Volkswagen Jetta/Golf- Very similar cars. The Golf might actual be -cheaper-. Jetta outsells Golf by a 4 or 5 to 1 margin.
Should I continue? I have chose three “popular” cars from 3 different regions of the world.
Or maybe lets look at the Toyota Yaris, the Honda Fit, the VW Polo, the Nissa Versa, or a host of other models that are pretty much Hatchback only Internationally, but are getting Sedan (or have or considering) treatment for the US market. Heck, for a B-market car, a “Sedan” shape makes no sense, yet B-Market Sedans outsell the hatchback models. (See Chevy Aveo or Ford Fiesta Projections)
When a US consumer is offered a Sedan or a Hatchback in the same model, it appears the Hatchback needs to be priced within 500 dollar or less to make the Hatchback the model of Choice. Since a Hatchback often doubles or triples the cargo volume, this would appear to be non sensical. A hatchback should easily be worth several thousand premium.
The Prius is really more of a Liftback rather than a Hatchback. The Volt will be as well. Liftbacks in profile resemble Coupes, (or those jerky 4 Door “Coupes”). This is an acceptable shape, if just barely. The Volt Gen2 will have a normal Sedan Version. When a Prius “sedan” version appears, I predict it will outsell the “Hatchback” model provided the same fuel economy.
For the “Scion” Brand. The average buyers age is between 39-40 years old. This is remarkably young, but considering the complete lack of a primary car for a family or attempt to add any luxury features at all… is pretty sad.
In 2007, the last normal Car year, the Scion brand amound all its models sold 130,000 units. Lets put this in perspective. Probably more people under the age of 35 bought a F-150 Truck than any model of Scion (in 2007, 690,000 Ford Trucks were sold). More people under the age of 35 bought a Civic than any model of Scion.
I’m sorry. When you add up the numbers, the US market still prefers Sedan Model. US market still prefers C segment or larger Cars. US Youth Market still prefers excitement over reliability.
(I love how people talk about the Fit as if its some great seller. Haven’t seen final 2009 numbers, but the majority of the spring, the Fit was headed for a ~60,000 year in 2009)
Now in Europe things like a VW Golf are perenially in the Top Ten List. Get back to me when ANY hatchback primary model sells in the top ten in the US. Heck, if you add the Honda Fit, The Toyota Yaris, the Chevy Aveo (the three top sales leaders I believe in the B market hatch segment) together you can barely crack the top 10. Less than Ford Fusion, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Chevy Malibu. As I will say again and again if asked. The entire B market sales in the US were less than F-150 or the Toyota Camry single year sales.
Jan 13th, 2010 (7:34 pm)Companies don’t last if they don’t make profits. We are finding that there is another cause of company’s demise: Taking profits by laying off workers, who then can’t afford a decent living. All I am saying is that there is a balancing point. A company is only as good as its employees, management and laborers included. If management doesn’t treat its employees well then it will not survive in a global climate or any economic climate. Only when the standard of living in each country across the planet is the dame will global trade be fair to all. That situation does not exist yet.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (7:54 pm)Off topic….
More Layoffs here in CA. Our undisclosable Govt Agency will be cutting 9 of out 56 person crew. Over 120 organization wide.
This fukin sucks. All this and the Union represented still get their fukin cost of living adjustment.
Shouldn’t the cost of living adjust negatively if the “cost of living” has been in depression?
fuk, imma gogetta few beer maaan. See ya’ll tomorrow.
Jan 13th, 2010 (7:56 pm)Your Grandma’s hatchback:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%2776_chevette.jpg
Not your Grandma’s hatchback:
http://green.autoblog.com/gallery/detroit-2010-toyota-ft-ch/#15
If something falls short of F-150 sales numbers does that make it “extremely unpopular”?
/ Ford’s big hoopla at the show was the unveiling of the new C class car, lots and lots of talk about how this is the way the market is going (from Mulallay and Bill Ford) and then an extravagant unveiling of … . . . . . wait for it . . . . . that’s right………. a hatchback.
http://blog.cardomain.com/2010/01/11/2012-ford-focus-unveiled-at-naias/
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:05 pm)Sorry to here about the cuts Cap’n. Have one on me.
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:12 pm)#114
Excellent! +1
I don’t know if you recall Chapman’s Lotus 7, but some road going versions of same weighed less than 1000#. They had the aerodynamics of a barn door however, quite unlike this thing with the Cd of 0.15. I love it! That’s why I like the Aptera so much. It’s just so elegant to look at. Alas, I fear that some borderline crooks have taken over there, so it is unlikely to ever see the light of day as a production car.
Anyway, your laudable interest in light weight reminds me of the maxims taught by my father, who spent a lot of time in the early aircraft industry:
1) KISS
Attributed by him to Clarence “Kelly” Johnson of the famous Lockheed “Skunk Works”, and by others to the great Mr. chapman:
2) “Simplicate and add lightness.”
And from “anonymous”, quoted by my Dad at every opportunity:
3) “What ain’t there don’t give you no trouble.”
All as important to PHEVs, BEVs, et al, as they are to aircraft and racing cars. Even if we do tend to sacrifice them for “gee whiz” complication in our “modern” age.
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:13 pm)Thanks for the link. JMO, but I liked all of the pics *except* the one “straight on” of the back. Shrug. Personally, I like hatchbacks.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:15 pm)Yeah, have one for me too.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:21 pm)So now we have another conflicting report:
“GM to produce Cadillac Converj with Volt’s plug-in technology”
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100110/DETROIT/100119997
Other quotes from Bob:
“Despite the growth in electrification, Lutz said electric vehicles won’t take over any time soon.”
“But he cautioned that the electrification push may be a fad in some ways.”
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:21 pm)Sage paternal advice. Timeless too.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:26 pm)#116
See, we do agree on SOMETHING, LOL. I also agree that the car companies have to give the people what they want. I just prefer a hatchback, for the excellent reasons which you have cited, plus I think that they look better in the “B” size. So I hope they have one for me.
BTW, I saw a Golf R32 in the parking lot while out shopping Sunday. I’m determined to stay a Chevy customer, no matter how long it takes them to come up with a package I want to buy, but otherwise I could be severely tempted. What a cool car!
Maybe they sold all 60K of those Fits in SoCal, LMAO. There are plenty of them here.
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:30 pm)The return of the hatchback seems inevitable to me. Higher gas prices (my inevitable assumption) force us into smaller cars. We then have to maximize the space which results in hatchbacks. Same cycle we saw in the 70′s.
I think the wikipedia link on hatchbacks has it somewhat right when they say the hatchback was associated with cheapness in the 80′s and 90′s. But that was then and this is now. There’s quite a few hatchbacks that are now seen as upscale and cool (i.e. mini cooper).
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:44 pm)The Aptera is my favorite. Maybe there’s still hope. If they’d offer it as a kit I’d buy one tomorrow. (I’ve got a roller cab full of tools sitting in an air conditioned garage just looking for a project.)
Jan 13th, 2010 (8:54 pm)SURELY you aren’t going to use an air conditioner in your garage!?! (LOL – just kiddin)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:00 pm)Actually had the heat on while I was working on a motorcycle last night (my maiden shop voyage with climate control since I completed this house). I’ve wanted that for sooooo long, and it was sooooo nice.
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:10 pm)LA Auto show 09 ~ Cruze
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:10 pm)LA Auto show 09 ~ Buick
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:10 pm)LA Auto show 09 ~ Camaro
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:12 pm)I’m hoping a lot of us here will be saying the same about our Volts.
Glad you had a nice experience though – delayed gratification can be sweet.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:13 pm)Are the specifications out on the U.S. Cruze?
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:26 pm)hi carcus.. yes
Yahoo search “2011 CHEVROLET CRUZE SPECIFICATIONS”
Starting at $15,100 …
1.8L or 1.4 turbo
Choice of wheel size ~ 15 gal tank ~ M32 6-speed manual (1.4L turbo) ~ Hydra-Matic 6T40 6-speed automatic ~ both engines about 137 HP.
Manufacturing location: Lordstown, Ohio
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:28 pm)*One* spec is that Lutz says that they will pump out 200,000 of them in 2011 (as per link from BillR above).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:33 pm)Looking for curb weight and the epa certified mpg. (i.e. official city/hwy/combined)
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:49 pm)That sounds a little optimistic, but if they can achieve the claimed 40 mpg hwy it should help sales. The Cruze would be the first (modern) non hybrid non diesel to do so, save the smart.
Jan 13th, 2010 (9:59 pm)Is this coupe an acknowledgement of the Prius plug-in model of only 10 – 12 miles of AER? Hummmmm. So, all those GM fans that mocked out the Prius, please post your comments.
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:21 pm)From the article:
““There are always these waves in the popular media and the public, and right now it’s teensy-weensy cars and electric vehicles. And I’m all for it because we’re going to have those, and I hope people buy a lot of them so we can make some money,” he said.”
Maybe this explains why Fritz was fired. He put a fossil in charge of marketing that combines in the same thought a belittling (no pun) swipe at a class of vehicles and his compay’s desire to make money from them. Lutz’s candor is refreshing but he can miss the mark awfully badly sometimes.
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:24 pm)I’m not a Prius mocker – just the opposite -, but I don’t understand your point. The Cruze isn’t even a hybrid.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:28 pm)I think Texas is referring to the XTS
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:28 pm)I could see a reason for concern if Bob *didn’t* express a desire to sell a lot of vehicles and make money on them.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:29 pm)Thanks, koz.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:44 pm)Belittling the vehicles that in the next breath he expresses a desire to sell lots of would be a concern for me if I was running the company and “actually” wanted to sell them. This is not the first time Mr. Lutz has made belittling or backhanded remarks about products and market segments that he doesn’t see eye to eye with. I get the impression the he would be shocked to learn that the rest of the population doesn’t share all of the same opinions as himself and that the others are of equal value.
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:54 pm)One of these days we’re going to hear about a light-weighted mainstream car. One of these days. To be honest, I don’t care if it’s hybrid-electric, compressed-air hybrid, EREV, bio-anything (at first). But I want to see a car just as big at half or even two-thirds the weight. I really really do.
Jan 13th, 2010 (10:56 pm)Sorry, koz, but it sounds like you are doing to Lutz what you accuse him of doing. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:08 pm)I have no issue with his personal tastes and don’t see my comments as belittling his preferences or projecting mine onto him, but I’ve been wrong before.
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:16 pm)My bad then.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 13th, 2010 (11:55 pm)I think that Bob Lutz is a great talent, but like all of us he can be out of touch. For example, he has said that people who live on the coasts “live in their own little world”. That’s probably true, but it’s also true that he lives in his own world as well. In his world everyone lusts after Corvettes and helicopters.
The funniest example may be the one from his CTS-V challenge. That was a great bit of theatre, and got plenty of good PR for GM, but in describing the continued demand for high performance cars he referred to the fact that men would always want fine watches, seemingly oblivious to the fact that most young people use phones and would never buy a watch.
Sometimes it helps to know your customers … all your customers.
+1
Jan 14th, 2010 (12:07 am)Real men still want fine watches (g). I love my Timex….
Be well,
Tagamet
/Night all.
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 14th, 2010 (7:17 am)I would just like to know when the flying car is going to go into production.
Jan 14th, 2010 (10:27 am)I hope the Volt will be a great success. But if the Volt is really going to be priced in the $40,000 range it will sell hot for 2 years and then sales will drop to nothing. If GM can’t get the price into the <$30,000 range then Ford with its Fusion hybrid and other hybrids available and just now coming online from Honda, Toyota, and others, will own the market.
Jan 14th, 2010 (12:15 pm)153
I think that they were predicting 1980, if memory serves, LOL. But none of us could imagine things that far into the future, so we just sort of didn’t pay too much attention. People also said that the traffic in LA was going to get so bad that everybody would be flying their own personal helicopter. Well, they were half right, weren’t they?
Jan 14th, 2010 (12:20 pm)#152
Me too, LOL. $20 at Big 5. It’s one of those “atomic clock’ radio gizmos, and it’s dead on all the time.
I think that DonC is tight though. My 29 year old doesn’t wear a watch, for example. Even I feel a little bit dumb about my addiction to my “fine watch” when I realize that I am toting a similar dead on timepiece around in my phone all the time.
Jan 14th, 2010 (12:25 pm)I only carry my cell phone occasionally, and when I do, I usually forget to turn it on, so *I’m* not as much at risk of feeling a little dumb” (in other words I’m a LOT dumb).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The ***VOLTS’*** Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 14th, 2010 (12:34 pm)@ steel
Sigh.
Your statement was “Hatchbacks are ex[t]remely unpopular in the US” (sp), which remains untrue.
Rebuttal (followed by some of the logical fallacies that you used.)
1. I’m no EV environmentalist. (poisoning the well). Regular visitors to this site know I simply like well designed and applied electric drive for its superior performance and luxury and could give a rat’s a@@ about nature or imports.
2. The hot market segment right know is fuel efficient crossovers and they pretty much only come with (gasp) hatchbacks. (repeating a lie at increasing volume doesn’t make it true). Same with SUVs. Try to buy one with a trunk. If you have a hatchback and want a trunk simply use the tonneau cover. I’m tempted to include pickup trucks with liftgates and tonneau covers in my definition of hatchbacks, but that would be weasal behavior, wouldn’t it?
3. As you point out, B segment cars are not the majority of vehicle markets, yet you focus on those to support your argument. (Cherry picking data bias and arguing from the specific to the general (my cat is black, therefore all cats are black)). You made a huge sweeping generalization that is, in fact, false, and are now scrambling to find any subset of the market where it is true. Keep in mind that in some sub-segments, the color x outsells the color y, so the color y is extremely unpopular in the US, using the same logic. What is clear is that more practical folks buy hatchbacks when available, as the diesel share of Jetta Sportwagens is much higher than the diesel share of Jetta sedans with trunks. You also neglected the possibility that the model specific execution of the hatchback is even more important than the concept of a htach. Even if I want a a hatchback, I don’t want a poorly executed hatchback.
4. Surveys of private rentals companies show that the vehicle supply demand mismatch in the US runs at around 80%. It’s unclear if dealerships are a efficient distribution devices or part of the problem of the gaping disconnect between consumer preference and incentivized products. If you make decisions based entirely on sales, then you paradoxically risk moving further away from consumer preference, which can change at a drop of a hat.
5. Thanks for setting up the straw men, but this is as boring as shooting fish in a barrel. I sometimes get the feeling that many posters on this site are legal interns sharpening their fangs for the great FUD rollout when electric vehicles hit dealerships.
Jan 19th, 2010 (12:59 pm)My commute is about 6 miles. I would certainly consider a 10 mile range for a luxury car, and then dip into the fossil fuels whenever needed for longer range. As far as I am concerned, a 10 mile range is great.