Michigan Confirmed to be Initial Volt Market
Today the NAIS is underway in Detroit Michigan, and news tends to come in furious waves.
Though we heard yesterday that Michigan will be a first market to get the Chevy Volt in addition to California, the official release came today.
“Launching in California and Michigan gives us important West Coast and Midwest platforms that will allow us to introduce the Volt more effectively into broader regions across the U.S.,” said Maria Rohrer, Chevrolet marketing director for Volt.
The Detroit Edison utility company llwi also participate in the Volt fleet project, involving 100 Chevy Volts across the nation that will take part in an extended research and demonstration fleet program, most of which will be in California. It is important to note this fleet test will begin this year but after, not before consumer launch.
GM also unveiled the new subcompact Aveo as part of the new upcoming Chevy small segment portfolio which will also include the Volt, the Cruze, and the Spark minicar.
GMC Granite
The wraps were pulled on what GM is calling the GMC Granite, a small crossover that would be the smllest GMC ever built.
“We think of the Granite as the automotive equivalent of an urban loft apartment,” said Dave Lyon, executive director of North American Interior and Global Cross-Brand Design. “The exterior has an unmistakable industrial look, but the interior is warm and personalized.”
It would run on the same 1.4L turbo engine the Cruze uses, and could host a Voltec powertrain just as the Orlando might.
The doors hinge on opposite sides allowing for a French-door type opening. There is no chrome and it has 20 inch wheels.
The interior is designed with an aircraft-like mechanical cluster and precision tool motif.
Cadillac Converj Offically Greenlighted
GM vice chairman Bob Lutz told reporters for the first time that the Cadillac Converj Voltec vehicle has been officially greenlighted for production.
He told reporters the car is “heading for production,” but that it wont be sold until 2013. He noted the car would be for consumers “who don’t mind paying a large price for a luxury vehicle.”
Lutz also reiterated that the Volt be have to be sold at a loss. As such, GM will only build a maximum of 50,000 to 60,000 Volts per year, and bring costs down by offering a portfolio of Voltec cars.
“First-generation vehicles are hard to make profitable,” Lutz told reporters.
GMC Granite Gallery
This entry was posted on Monday, January 11th, 2010 at 7:37 am and is filed under Converj, Launch, New Car. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+15
Jan 11th, 2010 (7:40 am)The Granite looks very cool.
But honestly, no plug, no sale.
No offense intended. That fact that is could have Voltec technology means that it should have Voltec technology.
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (7:42 am)I kind of like it too. Any word on pricing?
But with no plug, it is still no sale for me…..
+4
Jan 11th, 2010 (7:42 am)The Granite is awesome! Please GM build it just like it looks and make it an EREV vehicle!
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:05 am)I wonder if the Granite is a 4×4. Or is a Crossover, by definition, a 4×4?
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:13 am)I wonder the same thing. It is not true by definition, at least to me.
+5
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:13 am)“GM vice chairman Bob Lutz told reporters for the first time that the Cadillac Converj Voltec vehicle has been officially greenlighted for production.”
… No surprise here, It is only logical to offer Voltec in an upscale vehicle where you can actually turn a profit.. Good news nonetheless.
Here’s the red flag:
“Lutz also reiterated that the Volt be have to be sold at a loss, and that the battery cost $15,000.”
It’s hard to reconcile this with comments from LG Chem that the battery costs $8,000 per available kwH.
Is it another case of Lutz mis-speak? Has LG Chem’s comment been misinterpreted?
There’s a lot riding on this issue of battery cost. It goes to the heart of how soon EVs and Voltec vehicles can be priced low enough for the mainstream, which in turn affects our ability to meaningfully reduce dependence on foreign oil.
And then there’s the crow that most of us would have to eat after heaping scorn on the BCG report last week.
-4
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:13 am)The Volt battery costs $15,000? That is completely different from what Patil and GM has been saying about the battery price. What gives? Is this another example of Lutz talking without thinking, or were the earlier statements about battery price lies or puffery? This kind of makes the BCG paper a little less pathetic. Not even GM’s top executives seem to know how much the battery pack is going to cost.
I think Lutz is a fool at times, and I doubt he is right about this, but suddenly I am not sure that the Volt will be viable in the short term due to pricing issues.
I really think it is time for the pink tie and Lutz to retire permanently.
+7
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:15 am)Lutz also reiterated that the Volt be have to be sold at a loss, and that the battery cost $15,000. As such GM will only build a maximum of 50,000 to 60,000 Volts per year, and bring costs down by offering a portfolio of Voltec cars.
We are getting a lot of different items of information on battery costs, and numerically they really are not consistent. But then Lutz has never been a numbers guy
+4
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:18 am)It is hard to sort these numbers out. It could be that all of these things are different parts of the elephant, with LG speaking of battery cells (their part), while Lutz is including everything about pack design and assembly and on up to reserves for warranty cost.
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:30 am)… the battery cost $15,000.
I see this comment as a good thing. Last year there was mention of the Volt sticker including one battery exchange. This being $32,000 plus $8000. It may be that testing has revealed the battery will easily cycle 3000+ times before degrading. If this is the case then a second battery (in ten years) will not be needed. So the basic Volt without a battery exchange is $39,000 total. The numbers fit.
=D~
+5
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:33 am)We may have 15% unemployment, but we get some of the first Volts. Can’t wait to get in one.
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:39 am)I think Lutz is setting us up for the “promised less and deliver more” strategy.
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:40 am)Gee, could Dave G’s oft posted claim that the Volt battery costs $8000 be that far off? But it is also valid that Mr Lutz tends to make broad statements. Another GM spokesperson said the battery cost was “hundreds less” than the oft posted $1000 per kwh estimate. For that to be literally true, the most the 16 kwh battery could cost is $12,800.
I am going to stick with the $12,000 estimate until Lyle gets a chance to ask those in the know about the Lutz statement on cost.
+5
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:55 am)GMC Granite?
Does this mean GM will revive their “Like A Rock” ads?
+3
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:55 am)Here is the quote from the Reuters story, “GM executives have said that they expect to lose money on the Volt because of its high development costs and the cost of its battery, estimated near US$15,000 each.” So this statement does not attribute it to Mr. Lutz, but to unnamed “GM executives.” Does anyone have the exact quote from Mr. Lutz?
And, has the claim been removed from Lyle’s article??
Here is how the article reads now, “Lutz also reiterated that the Volt be have to be sold at a loss. As such, GM will only build a maximum of 50,000 to 60,000 Volts per year, and bring costs down by offering a portfolio of Voltec cars.”
But here is how it initially read, “Lutz also reiterated that the Volt be have to be sold at a loss, and that the battery cost $15,000. As such GM will only build a maximum of 50,000 to 60,000 Volts per year, and bring costs down by offering a portfolio of Voltec cars.”
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:57 am)In case anybody missed it, there is a mini-review of the Volt on CNN today.
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/autos/1001/gallery.chevrolet_volt_review/index.html?cnn=yes
Overall, it was quite positive.
(Apologies if this was posted earlier somewhere on this site)
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (8:59 am)Although the batteries cost around 8 K we have been told, I can’t help but think they are artificially inflating the price (15K) to include developement costs & testing spread out over estimated quantity of production. Additionally he must be adding pack assembly costs. Not discounting that developemt cost was pretty much bought & paid for by US taxpayer as part of bail out of old GM. Surely the assembly time can’t be almost doubling the cost of the batteries to get the pack assembled & built? Wheres that quote for the 8 K cost when you need it?
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:22 am)I believe they are trying to include R&D AND/OR Start up costs.
Probably part of playing the lobbying game.
If GM said they could sell the car and make a profit at 29,900, then it would be hard to lobby as I’m sure they are to make the credits better.
GM knows they will sell the first 50,000 as fast as they can make them, what I’d assume they are doing is trying to get the government to either extend the credits to more vehicles and/or make them cash at time of purchase.
GM would actually be crazy to sell the cars the first year as cheap as they can. Gen 2 will be when they will price them competitively after the early adapters have overpaid and covered R&d AND setup costs.
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:26 am)I think there’s too much buttons in this Gratine, and they are strangely laid on the steering wheel (what is that round double arrow button?!?). I’m wondering what is the use of a calendar on the dashboard?
Well, an advanced launch date for MI and CA is great news… Still waiting for a (better than 1 year-precise) date for european launch.
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:27 am)I would guess there are lots of cost numbers floating about GM on either the Volt itself or just the batteries. Lets say I spent 100M on R&D then 10M on a plant for production and the final actual production costs for the battery are $2500 for raw materials and outsourced sub-assemblies and $500 for labor. These prices are not meant to be realistic in any way but just for illistration. After making one battery what is the cost? I could say that one production battery cost me $110,000,3000! Or I could take the amount of batteries I intend to produce over the lifetime of the plant and equipment lets say it is 100,000 in which case the cost of the plant per battery would be $100 so it would give me a cost of $3100/battery. But what about the R&D costs? How much of that should be absorbed by this first run of 100,000? All of it? Most of it? 1/2, 10%? It all depends upon a bunch of assumptions. This isn’t an accounting question so much as it is a marketing/pricing question. The accountants will have a pretty firm idea on how to amortize the costs.
Now further complicate these cost estimates with warranty cost guesses. It is not surprising that we hear many different quotes on costs for the battery. Somebody though needs to get ahold of the situation though and state what the official new estimate is and communicate it to all involved who might be quoted on costs. But that is only worthwhile if they continue to communicate any updates or the various estimates will start to creep out again.
It is probably not that important to them as it is to us information starved maniacs. Various cost estimates being quoted isn’t real high on their list of priorities – the cost itself is.
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:28 am)Here is a quote from CPI that says $1000 per avalable kwh is the current cost of vehicle batteries. If we assume there are 8 kwh of available energy, then could be not conclude, as Dave G has, that the cost of the entire 16 kwh Volt battery is $8000? I do not think that is what it means.
“CPI believes that people make an unreasonable comparison to consumer electronics (CE) pricing when discussing Li-ion for automotive traction (AT) applications. CPI believes four factors need to be taken into account to make a valid comparison:
First, CE pricing is based on the beginning-of-life capacity whereas AT pricing is based upon end-of-life capacity and even for a highly durable chemistry the ratio of end-of-life to beginning-of-life is 75%.
Second, the AT application is sized for a 70% depth of discharge, the gap between minimum and maximum charge levels, which allows space on the high end for regenerative braking and space on the low end to provide enough power for charge sustaining operation.
Third, the AT market has more stringent requirements on the validation of the individual cells.
Fourth, a vehicle pack battery pack has non-cell costs such as a monitoring system.
All four of these items together justify a 2.5x premium for the AT application (or approximately $ 1,000/available kWh) compared to the $350/stated kWh of a CE system, CPI says.”
You see “available” could mean “available for drawdown” as Dave G assumes, or it could mean “available for degradation over time” which would refer to the whole 16 kwh costing $1000 each.
+3
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:34 am)Thanks for the link! I thought it was a *very* favorable review. Even though it referred to the 40K price estimate, it still thought it may be a good deal – and it looks like the price should be less than that.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:36 am)Too funny, I just got finished writing that after the Converj, the next likely vehicle to get the Voltec Propulsion system would be a cross-over. Behold the Granite!
A mini-van would also be a lucrative configuration with a Voltec propulsion system, but the styling would have to be significantly better than what the Orlando currently offers.
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:38 am)It would be nice if the battery costs come down enough by 2013 so that the Converj and Granite could have a larger battery for a little more performance for the Converj, and to get the 40 mile range on the Granite. I’d leave the same KWh in the Volt and just bring its price down.
+3
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:38 am)If it is not a 4×4 (at least at the higher options level) then it absolutely shouldn’t have the badge of GM’s truck division (GMC). So I can only assume it will be available in AWD at the very least. My question is will it have 3rd row seating Again, I assume it will since they are obviously taking cues from the Orlando on this, and the length looks about right.
Is it just me or is this thing stylistically similar to (other than size and front grille) the redesigned Aveo, which by the way is a sharp looking car. Did I just say the Aveo is a sharp looking car? Geez, looks like hell has frozen over.
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:46 am)I personally like the looks of the Granite, and I think they would sell enough to make it profitable. The Granite seems to play in relatively small segment of the market, but I think it would be successful there against its current competition. Is the Granite indeed going to be made? Does anyone know if this is the same size as the Chevy Orlando? I thought for some reason the Orlando was a larger machine than this.
Very, very happy to finally hear that they will produce the Converj. But am really curious as to why it would take another 2 years after the Volt launch to finally offer the Converj? When the Converj was introduced at last year’s Detroit show, GM boasted that it was relatively production ready, in that we were told it’s design could only require minor tweaks and it could arrive in show rooms relatively unchanged from the show car. Just speculating but maybe GM wants the Gen. 2 Voltec system in the Converj rather than employing a “dated” Gen. 1 system in the Cadillac? Anyone have any thoughts?
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:46 am)Regarding the GMC Granite’s doors;
I have a chevy pickup with those types of doors. You have to open the front before opening the back and letting the passangers out. What a PIA! (rain, cold, wind… yuck)
Plus, even thought they are much smaller than those on the GMC Granite, they rattle, squeak, are VERY hard to close tightly and keep adjusted and they leak!!
Use standard front hinge doors!
+4
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:48 am)60,000 units for first year is almost the same level as 2010 Camaro. Distributed nationwide it has been averaging 3 to 6 units per month to us.
If only 3 states are getting those cars, could we look forward to
12, 15, maybe 20 units per month?!
I say: Woo! And Hoo!!!
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:51 am)HA HA, good one. Although that was Chevy’s catchphrase for their trucks
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:53 am)Ignoring the idea of waiting for data collection on the Volt first (and battery cost reductions), I think it may be due to the remaining designing/engineering, getting the production equipment made, setting up a line/automation, testing for fit/finish/quality, then retweaking design. Basically most of the steps the public has been made aware of on the Volt. The interior was quite different as well, w/some new technology, so that may play into it as well.
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:54 am)This year’s winter has reinforced the advantages of 4WD/AWD.
The Subaru and Land Rover have been driven and the 2WD Malibu has sat under a pile of snow. (It seems ‘Global Warming’ means colder temperatures and much more snow! Go figure…)
As much as I like the Volt it seems more and more that giving up AWD is something that isn’t going to work for me.
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:55 am)Converj is a go!?!? Great, since it will take for ever to get a Volt here (Québec), I may as well wait for the Converj.
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:56 am)I think it has been mentioned in other posts, but does anyone know if Toyota lost money on Prius at first, and if so, how long did they do that before the car started making them money?
Also, is it normal for a completely new car model to lose money for a while before it begins to be profitable?
Jan 11th, 2010 (9:59 am)l love how the granite looks. It is small, but very, very cool.
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (10:00 am)I have to say I like the new designs coming out from GM. I hope they keep young, cool designers in-house and actually give them power.
Now, if GM can pull off small, American cool, then that is something that can compete against all those fantastic and practical Asian sleds.
Oh, and it MUST HAVE Voltec, at least as an option. As others have said, GM needs to have a Voltec model for each class. What are all those housewives going to drive to the store, mall, pick up the kids and all those other 40 mile or less trips? Voltec! As Steve Ballmer would say, “Voltec, Voltec, Voltec… Voltec, Voltec, Voltec…”
GM is actually holding the torch for once! It’s like giving the golden goose back to Microsoft or any other huge corporation that got too big and too old to take youthful risks. Perhaps this GM bankruptcy is just what the doctor ordered.
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (10:03 am)I owned a Subaru for a number of years. I agree with you. There is nothing on the roads today that is better than AWD. I hope AWD is offered in gen 2 Volt or GM makes a Voltec vehicle with AWD.
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (10:11 am)Maybe LG chem was just referring to the cells, and the extra cost is the pack design and energy management system. After all, these last two items are GM’s, not LG Chem’s, so why would LG Chem be commenting on the cost of them?
Jan 11th, 2010 (10:14 am)Why does that body style look familier ?? oh… KIA Soul…and I think Nessan has one like it too… Copycat?
How about we just get the Volt on the road all accross North America..
More models are coming out from GM but who is buying…. People are switching to other car companies (domestic and foreign ) until GM can prove to them that they are now viable…
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (10:16 am)Here’s a very positive article, with some comments by Bob Lutz.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100111/ts_alt_afp/usautoshow_20100111145448
Jan 11th, 2010 (10:18 am)On a completely unrelated topic, from Autoblog Green:
I had to laugh. When shopping for a small SUV, do you choose the one that sounds like it’s named after a 40-ish Boston woman who prefers younger men?
Jan 11th, 2010 (10:23 am)Granite, Orlando. Either one. I want a x-over erev!
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (10:25 am)I thought the LG quote was 8K for usable power since the volt only uses 50% of the battery it would be 16K, so I guess the price has come down a little.
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (10:26 am)I’ll take my Granite in black, with a Gen II/III Voltec drivetrain!
If they can keep the same feel as the show car in production, I would happily pay more for a Voltec Granite than a Volt.
Jan 11th, 2010 (10:30 am)OT – Not all the time but quite often when I come to the gm-volt site my pc locks up with a message saying that a script is causing my browser to run slow and asks if I want to stop running it. I’ll click yes but then if I reload it will happen again. This started when I switched to a PC with windows 7. So far the only site that this has happened is this one. Any ideas anyone?
Jan 11th, 2010 (10:47 am)This happens with the latest version of IE, which is included in Windows 7. To avoid it click the “torn page” icon just left of the refresh icon at the top right in the URL window.
Jan 11th, 2010 (11:01 am)Here Here Rashiid. I live in central PA and the benefits of AWD would be very, very welcome in an electric vehicle. I was really excited when Jeep had that EREV Wrangler concept 2 years ago. I thought that was sooooo perfect of an application to make an EREV, then only to have my hopes extinquished with the later disbanding of the ENVI group. Just thinking aloud here, but I wonder how difficult it would be to take say the Hummer H4 platform, re-work the body to be a chevy or GMC, and then but an EREV set-up in that?
Jan 11th, 2010 (11:02 am)Nasaman – Thanks. I had added GM-volt.com to my list of sites to run in compatibility mode months ago but didn’t think that did any good because I still had the problem, but apparently that only applies to the home page. Each page – so each new post each day – is its own website so it needs to be set individually. A bit of pain but at least I know what it is about. By the way I don’t have the compatibility mode icon so I had to go to tools and then click on compatibility mode. I include this tidbit so that if anyone else has this problem and doesn’t have the icon they can follow along.
+3
Jan 11th, 2010 (11:03 am)I remain absolutely convinced that GM is deliberately overstating the Volt battery cost. As a battery specialist, I can assure everyone here that ALL raw materials and EVERY component of a finished Volt battery are fundamentally quite cheap. Lithium carbonate is plentiful in the earth’s surface in many, many locations including Nevada in the US. The separator film used in cells is also inexpensive to manufacture, as are all the mechanical, packaging, thermal control and electronic parts that make up the control & monitoring electronics of a completed battery.
GM’s Battery cost claims are simply exaggerated because it’s the most plausible/defensible way they can explain —at a later time— how they were able to significantly reduce the Volt’s MSRP to satisfy one of the most important rules of marketing: promise less/offer more.
Jan 11th, 2010 (11:03 am)Me too, the $12k estimate seems to agree with previous information.. perhaps the cost of the warranty bumps it up to $15k.. and that seems pretty high for a 10 year warranty of a reliable item.
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (11:09 am)Is this the replacement for the Yukon XL, which makes a Hummer H3 look like a gas sipper by comparison?
If the GMC Granite Voltec had the smallest power pack possible for charge sustaining mode (AER of around 0), it could be somewhat affordable and reasonably efficient and still retain the performance and luxury characteristics of 100% electric drive. A mechanical AWD or 4WD set up or more efficient smaller electric motor for each end (or each wheel) set up would give it some nifty 4WD and/or AWD capabilities. Too bad GM doesn’t have a well built, small, quiet, clean, reliable, durable turbo-diesel engine to use (or do they?) for extended range generators. A smaller power pack plus diesel would make an EREV Granite (or similar) diesel Voltec the ultimate affordable diesel-electric train under the Christmas tree.
We are just starting to figure out the excellent, superior possible configurations using electric motors and diesel and the Granite seems to point in the right direction for more possible drivetrain applications.
The only completely deficient drivetrain and fuel combination at this point appears to be full gasser / ICE drive using gasoline / inefficient food crop ethanol blends. Oh wait, I just described current US energy policy.
-2
Jan 11th, 2010 (11:11 am)Well said. But, there is another point that needs to be repeated over and over again.
EREV type vehicles need a recharging infrastructure so they can become general use vechicles instead of being relegated to the role of commuter vehicles. The more vehicles and models put on the road, the faster that infrastructure will be built.
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (11:16 am)Actually what you have is that experts who have looked at the costs have been saying that the battery pack for a Volt would could cost $15,000 and some people have been quoting LG Chem saying the cells costs $1000/kWh for a battery pack for a hybrid. A hybrid is not a PHEV. The way the battery is used and its size are different enough that the cost calculus is quite different. A better view for a PHEV would be that the battery cells cost $1000/kWh and the rest of the pack costs about the same, meaning that the pack costs about $2000/kWh, or about $16K for the Volt pack. (Rough estimate). Alternatively, even if you use the cell costs of a HEV and add the additional costs which GM has identified, the best you can do is get the pack to a price of $11K+. That’s well below $15K estimate here but also well above $8K.
If you paid close attention, Denise Grey more or less confirmed that the Volt pack costs more like $15K than $10K during her interview last week when talking about halving the pack price in 3-5 years and then later possibly meeting the DOE goal of getting the batteries to $350/kWh. (Half of $500 is less than $350 but half of $1000 is not).
Finally we’ve known that the battery pack is more than $8000 for quite some time because of the price of the Volt. If you assume a Volt is essentially a Cruze, and if you further assume a pack costs $8K, given the additional costs of a PHEV like the Volt, even if you multiply the pack and the rest of the costs by the standard multiplier of 1.4X to account for integration costs and profit, a Volt should be priced around $32K before rebates. The fact that it will be more like $40K and that GM is concerned about profitability even at this price, should tell you the pack costs considerably more than this.
Jan 11th, 2010 (11:19 am)No, you said the redesigned Aveo. So you can still sleep well tonight with a clear conscious. Hell’s still hot.
Jan 11th, 2010 (11:27 am)Make that “conscience” and mine will be too
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (12:02 pm)+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (12:05 pm)NO, THEY DON’T!
That’s whole point of EREV, super cheap for the first 40 miles, then a normal car for the rest of your driving. Even if you’re a rep doing 20k a year, the first 10k come in at electric prices. so here, you spend £160 on your 10,000 electric miles, and £1,110 on your petrol miles – total is £1,270. Compare to a 60MPG prius, and your 20,000 petrol miles cost you £1,660. that’s nearly 30% cheaper. in fact, for the prius to be cheaper it has to achieve 79MPG, with your fuel coming down to £1,266.
The crossover point (with UK fuel and electricity costs) is 35,000 miles a year.
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (12:06 pm)EREV? Perhaps you meant just plain old EV vehicles need a recharging structure. EREV already have a system in place for going beyond commuter duty. It’s called a gas station.
Jan 11th, 2010 (12:11 pm)See if you have IE 8 on your Windows 7. If so, go to the Tools pulldown and select “Compatibility View”. Should help a lot.
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (12:12 pm)Please tell me that GM has at least done at least a wind tunnel test on this vehicle if they are planning on making it an EREV. And please tell me it performed better facing forward than backward.
Jan 11th, 2010 (12:20 pm)I’m not usually a conspiracy nutcase, but this may be the way it is.. marketing tricks by GM.. perhaps they are doing the same thing by hinting the CS mileage will be low.
On the other hand, can a large corporation keep a secret like this?
Jan 11th, 2010 (12:27 pm)You want to maximize interior useful room for humans and storage while mimimizing exterior high speed wind resistance. Voila – a snow covered windswept brick (see space shuttle).
http://jalopnik.com/5439702/snow-mods-ten-cars-aerodynamically+enhanced-by-mother-nature
Jan 11th, 2010 (12:29 pm)Maybe you should rephrase the question like this: “Is it possible for a large corporation to know the truth accurately and act with transparency?” Complete honesty at this stage would probably be a competitive disadvantage.
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (12:30 pm)“Promise less, deliver more” is just a sound model to follow.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (12:32 pm)Or use Firefox as your browser.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (12:55 pm)Doesn’t putting a Voltec powertrain in the Granite have the same problem as putting one in the Volt prototype ? Coefficient of drag doesn’t look too good for the Granite – if you want to push a brick through the air, it is going to cost you in kWh.
Also, the weight would be a factor – it’s a small crossover, but would it weigh more than the Volt? You would probably need a bigger battery, a bigger traction motor, a bigger Extended Range ICE. Which would affect the cost and luggage space.
Sure, eventually battery costs will come down, and maybe Chevy will have some new generators for their EREV’s (small turbos, 6-stroke engines, whatever) that will give more power for less weight. But in the meantime, there is a reason auto manufacturers make hybrids and EV’s from small, light, aerodynamic cars.
some things are just a bad idea
Jan 11th, 2010 (1:16 pm)Yep, all of the issues you mention would need to be addressed during the development process. Just going with an AER of 20 would solve some of them. Lots of work to be done between now and its release.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 11th, 2010 (1:20 pm)When nasaman speaks of about batteries — I listen …. best post I’ve read in a while…can’t wait to see how this all palys out.
PS – I havent shown the wifey this new Granite just yet but if they can “stay true to the concept” with the final product they might just very well have a winner here….I think she’ll love this.
The PERFECT 2-car garage of the future — left side Volt, right side Granite (all Voltec!)
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (1:20 pm)Regarding charging the Volt, I live in a condo and I would love to pitch a charging point or two in our parking lot. I could tell the condo board that it wouldn’t cost much, that they would be able to charge a 10% premium on the electricity, i.e. electricity is 9 cents a kWh so we could charge the BEV and EREV owners 10 cents a kWh, so that the chargers would eventually pay for themselves, plus the condo owners could advertize their condo as being a green, eco friendly building. It could even be coin operated to keep it simple, I mean, 8 kWh is less than a dollar, and that is only when you completely drain the battery packs available capacity.
But does any company make and sell outdoor chargers yet?
-1
Jan 11th, 2010 (1:20 pm)Or you could get a MAC and avoid all kinds of trouble.
Jan 11th, 2010 (1:25 pm)I can’t edit my posts anymore…
(
Jan 11th, 2010 (1:35 pm)The Granite is def cool looking. I would need to know the interior capacity though. Can it haul a 4×8 sheet of anything?
I have a 1999 car and a 2002 pickup. Both need replacement very soon.
IF I can get Voltec, then I will try to go there. An Colorado-sized pickup would do if it was Voltec.
Otherwise, I will go back to the Dodge boys and get E85 vehicles (which GM doesn’t seem to have many). Doesn’t really matter to my household, but it matters to me as far as coolness and high tech.
Jan 11th, 2010 (1:35 pm)More good news and an interview with Bob Lutz.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100111/ap_on_bi_ge/us_auto_show_gm
Jan 11th, 2010 (1:49 pm)Yes, there was a thread on here *and greencarcongress) about a company that builds/installs outdoor chargers. I don’t think that they were coin fed though. They either “recognized” the car/account and put it on your monthly bill or had an option to “swipe a card” to do the same thing. Good news – they are available, Bad news – I can’t remember the company name. Maybe someone else here can remember it or you could do a simple google search.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 11th, 2010 (1:51 pm)Try using Firefox.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (1:53 pm)Off Topic:
It looks like Ford did pretty well at the auto show….
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/detroit-auto-show-ford-fusion-hybrid-wins-car-of-the-year/
And now they are announcing an all electric:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2010/01/ford-to-sell-electric-focus-next-year-.html
It is only the beginning folks!!!!
Jan 11th, 2010 (1:58 pm)So I too have a truck with doors hinged on opposite sides. These doors are a feature I absolutely love. The reason is that it is so convenient to open front and back doors and have a huge opening for loading boxes and other big bulky items, as there is no center post to get in the way. Couldn’t live without it
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:00 pm)If we compare the CPI statement (post # 21) with the GM guy estimate of cost “near” $15,000 we are left with assuming $12,000 is near $15,000. If AT pricing is based on end of life capacity, then the end of life “available” capacity is 75% of initial. So 75% of 16 kwh is 12 kwh and if these cost $1000 each, then CPI is saying the battery pack including development costs and cell management costs costs around $12,000. This is consistent with the statement that the cost is hundreds less than $1000 per kwh (which works out to a maximum of $12,800.)
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:01 pm)Wow!! GM getting on its feet in style. A 2013 Converj should, given Li-ion advancements, see 500+ range. Granite looks to be really upscale – much like a Lexus or Cadillac. Now Christmas week I put 1000+ over the Tehachapi’s on an HHR with nice features – but at 5’11 -much too tight. Interestingly, Edmunds 2009 HHR (under $25,000) review thought it adequate. However, and this is first hand, the HHR mileage (and range) was outstanding easily 30+ mpg in stop & go/ up & down @ 70-80 mph. This is way way beyond the best EV today. I mention this as the Granite looks to be just a shade larger than an HHR. My trusty 23 year old 1987 GMC Sierra Classic (like a Blazer) 314k mi gets on its best day 12 mpg.
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:03 pm)Actually EREV type vehicles do NOT need a recharging infrastructure. Plug them in at home to 110v and drive them. When the juice is used up the ER portion kicks in until you can recharge so they are not restricted battery size. That is the main benefit or an EREV over a BEV. BEV are limited use without the recharging infrastructure.
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:04 pm)So which one is going to having plug-in 2 mode system, there were rumors that One GM vehicle in NAIAS will have one with plug-in 2 mode.
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:06 pm)The Granite, in concept form, appears styled as a EREV car.
The large center tunnel. The “twist” swift set to “F” for forward. The large LCD screens… It all apears to fit an EREV concept.
Something people may have missed is that the seats on the passengener side are designed to “flip up”. Giving someone access to (I guess) a 4′ Tall by 3′ Wide by by ~7-8′ Long cargo section. Anyway, a mountain bike with wheels on was said to just fit in. This was the reason for the rear hinged doors… to ensure this entire space could be used.
The Granite is significantly shorter in length and hieght than the Orlando Concept. Third Row seating will not be possible. (Granite is like a tougher version of a VW Golf, wheras an Orlando is more like a Mazda5)
This car could work well for EREV/me. The swept area is kept to a minimum, barely larger than the Volt. The CD is better than most “box” type cars. Throw in AWD electrical system (folding seats/removal seats make rear cargo volume less important) and you have a real tough urban commuter/cargo hauler auto.
Moving to production, that would be my guess. 3 removal bucket seats + Driver and a way to convert the “tunnel” to a flat bed similar to the folding seat design of the Volt.
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:19 pm)If this were to be a conspiracy it would indeed be a “vast” conspiracy. A123, which knows something about battery packs but isn’t even part of the GM supply chain, sells a 5 kWh pack for the Prius which costs $10K installed, or $2K per kWh (this is the size of the pack, not the size used or what is called “available” kWh). Just applying those numbers to the size of the pack in the Volt suggest the Volt’s pack, at 16 kWh, should cost $32K installed.
GM is not sandbagging on pack costs. These things are expensive. GM may have been able to whack some costs off a comparable pack from A123, but not three quarters of the cost.
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:23 pm)Glad to hear about the Converj. Use this powertrain as much as possible to spread the development costs around and increase the size of the market of components.
NPNS.
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:30 pm)I honestly think Ford is much too early for this. An EV will only be a niche until a quick charge infrastructure is built. Until then, EREV is the way to go. There really isn’t anything holding back a buyer other than ignorance, style, and cost. Not necessarily in that order.
But with an EV, range really become a big issue. Good luck to Ford. I just think they are too early.
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:33 pm)I’m not sure about whether this is the right way to get there, but the conclusion is reasonable. The other way to get to about the same place is to assume the cells cost $1000/kwh and then apply what GM has said is the percentage of the pack cost attributable to the cell cost. When you do that you get a number around $11.5K, though my guess is that GM underestimated these non-cell costs.
But keep in mind that these are raw costs. To the raw costs you have to add the costs of constructing the pack and then integrating the pack into the car. So a raw cost of $12K would be reflected in an installed cost of something near $17K at retail (the standard multiplier for raw to finished costs is 1.4x).
Even this is aggressive. Also as I mentioned above, A123 sells a 5kWh pack installed for $10K or $2k/kWh. Applied to the Volt’s 16kWh pack suggests the Volt pack would cost $32K installed. This is obviously too high but it gives an idea of what a small company which is completely focused on batteries can do … and it’s not pretty.
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:34 pm)It looks like Ford is entering the electric arms race:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2010/01/ford-to-sell-electric-focus-next-year-.html
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:38 pm)I’m assuming that the Volt couldn’t be nominated for this year’s Car of the Year, because it’s not “out” yet? At least I hope that that’s the case.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:49 pm)With Lutz mentioning that “GM will only build a maximum of 50,000 to 60,000 Volts per year, and bring costs down by offering a portfolio of Voltec cars,” I have my fingers crossed for a Voltec-based Chevy Impala.
The Impala is GM’s bread-and-butter sedan and my 2008 Impala easily gets over 30 mpg on the highway, more than EPA estimates.
Unfortunately, GM has been stripping down the Impala (they took the gorgeous Impala emblems off of the 2010 model, for crying out loud!!!!) and raising the price, so you’re getting less car for more money.
The Impala is a phenomenal car and GM would be foolish to let it die. I know they are planning a redesign for 2013/2014 and I heard they are planning on making it bigger to compete with the new Ford Taurus.
A way to really make the Impala more attractive is to move it to the Voltec platform. It may take a couple of years of implement, but I’m sure they can do it.
My first car was an Impala and my current car is an Impala and I want to keep buying Impalas, and a Voltec-based Impala would be totally sweet!
I think a Voltec-based Impala would make for an amazing car. A 40-mile-all-electric range plus several hundred miles of additional range, with an average efficiency of 40 miles per gallon (using the gasoline generator) would be incredible!
The Impala is very aerodynamic and, IMO, could be converted to the Voltec platform very easily, once they are able to shrink the battery, so it can continue to seat 5 (and possibly 6) people.
My message to GM: Keep the Impala, move it to the Voltec platform and, for goodness sakes, put the Impala emblems back on the rear sail panels!!!!!!!!!!
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:52 pm)Here is an article that says our beloved Volt won’t be cost effective for consumers until 2040. Does anyone believe that? I don’t. And besides, being cost effective is not the point. At least for me.
http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1223/plug-in-hybrid-hype-gets-zapped/
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (2:57 pm)Well, that all depends on what you consider “not that many”. From the Chevy website, here is a list of their available E85 vehicles:
Jan 11th, 2010 (3:11 pm)I’m with you. I see Volts everyday here in Milford and can’t wait to drive one of my own.
Jan 11th, 2010 (3:15 pm)Thanks for the link, Rashiid. You are definitely not alone that “it’s not all about the money”.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 11th, 2010 (3:16 pm)A Voltec GMC Granite:
Yes, cutting the All Electric Range in half would help, but don’t forget about Charge Sustaining mode: the Volt is designed from the ground up so that a 71 hp ER ICE gives enough average power such that, by using the battery buffer, it feels like you are driving a 150 hp vehicle in most situations.
If the GMC Granite actually needs more average power (say, 90 hp), then it will drain the battery buffer much more often, and you will be left in “straining with just 71 hp” much more often. This will be a much bigger drawback, I would bet, than just “smaller AER”.
The drag force is proportional to Cd (coefficient of drag) and the frontal area (A). More drag requires more power (from the ER ICE) for the same “driving experience”. Also, since the kinetic energy of a vehicle is proportional to its mass, a heavier vehicle needs more power to reach the same speed in the same time.
Shape (Cd, A) and weight (m) are very important. The Volt prototype had a Cd of 0.43, the final Volt has a Cd of 0.24. If you want to load up a pickup and drive around with a Voltec powertrain, you will have to make compromises (drive slower, pay a lot for a bigger Voltec powertrain, stay away from hills, etc).
Applying these ideas to SUV’s and trucks, even little ones, is still a ways off (unless they can get the weight down by going with aluminum and plastics, and get a better aerodynamic shape for trucks and SUVS).
Yes, I agree, lots of work to be done.
the Volt prototype had a Cd of 0.43, almost twice the final Cd
Jan 11th, 2010 (3:28 pm)he-he-he…
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=9533671
Jan 11th, 2010 (3:32 pm)Don,
I revisited the Denise Gray interview from last week, and at 46:20 into the webcast, John McElroy asks states that his understanding is that the Volt’s battery pack costs $10,000.
Denise responds by saying she won’t completely agree that it’s $10,000, but that it is a pretty expensive battery pack. Maybe I am reading her wrong, but this suggests to me that the battery pack in its current form is less than $10,000!
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2010/01/live_webcast_milestone_technology_event_for_chevrolet_volt.html
Maybe I’m just an optimist like Tag.
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (3:36 pm)I really have to respectively disagree with all those who have said we do NOT need a recharging infrastructure for EREV type vehicles. And, I’m really surprised at those who take that position.
The Volt will get 40 miles on a single charge and its battery can be recharged at home over night. That is good!
But, suppose one lives 50 miles from work. The last 10 miles to work and the entire 50 mile return home will require gas. If an infrastructure existed where the Volt could be to recharged at work, then only 20 miles to/from work would require gas.
Much the same can be said for extended trips. Recharging capabilities are needed at motels, etc.
Over a period of years, battery chemistries will improve, vehicle range will be extended and quick recharging capabilities will exist much like service stations of today. The more EREV vehicles that are put on the road, the faster that infrastructure will be developed.
Jan 11th, 2010 (3:40 pm)I’ve been working on the automation for this project. Everything seems to be on schedule (so far).
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (3:42 pm)4×4 Granite EREV in 20?? I’M THERE!
Go Volt! Go GM!
As the battery pack costs drop you’ll see the Voltec drive system spread throughout the GM line. Pack/battery costs will drop faster than all the naysayers will ever admit. My prediction!
Lyle, I hope you get the first consumer Volt with all the fanfair and press that you sincerely deserve. GM-Volt.com is one of my favorite and most visited websites. With the announcement of the Converj that is TWO Voltec drivetrain vehicles. More will be announced over time and the electricfication of the automobile will finally be underway and YOU Lyle will be mentioned in the history books. Don’t doubt it!
-5
Jan 11th, 2010 (3:48 pm)Rest assured that GM will likely dumb down the GMC like it did the VOLT so as to not scare the delicate sensibilities of the Dinette Set Mericans that just want to tootle on from A to B. Just why do they tantalize and then upend everything in production so often? The Camero they did not. The now dead Pontiac Solstice they did not. The now dead SKY by Saturn RIP they did not. Real head turners these three are and most popular.
Regards from the Flu ridden Higgins and the Lads!
Jan 11th, 2010 (4:00 pm)My guess is that Mr Lutz, and GM, is factoring in the cost for replacing the battery pack for the 1st generation of Volts- thus the difference between $8000 and $15000 for the battery pack from the two sources.
Jan 11th, 2010 (4:04 pm)I guess my choice of words could have been better. EREVs do not “require” a fast charging infrastructure to be practical. BEVs really do require the charging infrastructure to be practical. Without the charging infrastructure they are dead in the water when they hit the end of AER. Eventually when the fast charging infrastructure is in place then there would be limited need for EREVs. We could all be driving BEVs – assuming the batteries get cheaper and higher energy densities(ie ranges in well excess of 100 miles/charge). The EREVs are a first step in that direction. I would love to be able to drive 100% electric but that is not going to be realistic in the near future. If the studies are correct that state over 75% of the daily commutes are less than 40 miles round trip, then the Volt will work for a significant portion of the commuters and still be able to be used on longer trips without the charging infrastructure. I drive ~30miles round trip daily so I should be able to commute M-F without burning gas or requiring a charge away from home. Do I want to see the charging infrastructure put in place? OF Course. My only comment is that lack of it should not hinder the 75% of us that drive less than 40 miles per day from utilizing EREVs.
+2
Jan 11th, 2010 (4:04 pm)Estero, I’m in the camp that says we don’t need one.
But maybe it is semantics. The Volt doesn’t need a new infrastructure, but it would be nice to have one.
Jan 11th, 2010 (4:04 pm)That’s why I put the word “some” in italics. Thanks for all the info and the snazzy picture(s).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 11th, 2010 (4:11 pm)You say that like it’s a BAD thing! LOL.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 11th, 2010 (4:13 pm)Amen!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (4:23 pm)Lwesson at #98:
-1 for misspelling CAMARO.
It is not CAMERO.
Jan 11th, 2010 (4:42 pm)Tag,
I certainly didn’t mean as BAD at all!
Just matter of fact.
Regards,
Bill
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (4:47 pm)LOL, a -1 for *spelling*???? -3 for *content*!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 11th, 2010 (4:55 pm)True and this doesn’t even mention the most important need for charging infrastructure that is equally important to the Volt’s success. Apartment dwellers and other residences with only streetside or shared parking facilities require a charging infrastructure for plug-ins, including the Volt, to be a viable option. This isn’t to say the Volt requires a charging infrastructure to have any available market but it is needed for this sizable portion of the market.
GM is right is pushing for standards and infrastructure but they should be careful not to tie the Volt’s success to these efforts.
Jan 11th, 2010 (5:04 pm)I know, Bill. I was just teasing!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (5:32 pm)Very good analysis Geronimo. Yes, some compromises from the Volt, price or performance, would need to be made but I don’t thing they are huge or insurmountable at this point. I think adding a lot of little improvements together gets you close enough to make viable small pickups and Orlando sized vehicles. Batteries have already improved a little. Weights can be improved a little. Range will decrease a little. Performance with decrease a little. Motor power can be increased a little, similar to the 120KW quoted for the Converj. Controls can be tweaked to allow the user to mitigate some of the compromises, such as a “mountain mode” that holds more battery in reserve for hill climbing. Add all this up and you have vehicles that outperform low power ICE option currently on the road in most circumstances. Also, the value add of a EREV pickup or Orlando is much greater versus the conventional options than that of the Volt vs the Prius.
Jan 11th, 2010 (6:14 pm)I agree. I also have these “suicide doors” on my Sierra extended-cab. They really don’t rattle either… and they’ve never leaked. Not sure where the original poster got that information from…
+1
Jan 11th, 2010 (6:25 pm)Physics is a lady, and she’s a real b*t*h… that’s why.
Jan 12th, 2010 (8:07 am)I don’t think you can compare a truck platform to a car platform in this instance. The Granite will not necessarily have the same problems as your truck.