Here we are in the year of the intial Volt rollout, and the dream of starting to wean this country off of oil is about to begin.
2010 is going to be a true turning point in the history of the automobile. Not only will the Volt rollout but so too will roll out the Nissan LEAF, the plugin Toyota Prius, the Ford Focus EV and many others electric cars.
The intial market for the Volt as the only reasonably priced EREV will be strong, and frankly I suspect no matter how much GM charges, demand will far outstrip supply for some time. It seems logical that if GM can line up the suppliers and build cars in high volume they should try to sell as many as they can at a profit. Clearly GM expects to go into full production after one to two years, and bring down the prices by the next generation set to begin in 2013. But why limit early sales? Is it out of sheer conservatisvism?
Limited sales will make the car more of a halo prodct, improving GM’s image and bringing people into showrooms, but generating few sales. If they can build them, and can sell them at a profit right at the start, why shouldn’t they?
I had a chance to ask this strategy question of Maria Rohrer. She is GM’s new director of Volt Marketing.
Do you see the Volt as being a halo car to bring people into showrooms, or will you make the effort to sell as many Chevy Volts as the market dictates as soon as they go on sale, and for a profit?
Yes, we see Volt in a pivotal role for Chevrolet.
We believe Volt will bring folks into Chevrolet that have never considered us before. That’s an exciting proposition because Volt can be a ‘portal’ to help folks see how far the rest of our cars, trucks and crossovers have improved in quality, style and value.
Regarding the sales of Volt, yes, the market will dictate to a certain extent and as you know, we are going to launch regionally to start, California already announced. Importantly, we want to ensure a fantastic owner experience as we progress for a car as special as the Volt. More to come.
This entry was posted on Monday, January 4th, 2010 at 7:18 am and is filed under Launch, Marketing. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
-12
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:24 am)(click to show comment)
+13
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:29 am)Halo or not, I want one.
+15
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:33 am)They have to overcome a bad reputation here in the USA as well.
Although quality have improved, the perception of quality is still bad.
IMO, this is why the Volt must be SPOT-ON.
+12
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:34 am)I think a slow ramp is unavoidable, especially with GM now focusing on the Generation 2 design for the real ramp up. It makes sense not to tool up the Gen 1 for high volumes.
The Volt serves as a halo vehicle no matter how many are built. I will likely lead to Cruze and Malibu sales.
+7
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:52 am)Ditto. But this is from a person who has never had a Chevy and would never have noticed Chevy’s like the Malibu and Impala, etc. The only Chevy I remotely considered was the Vette and it has always remained above my price threshhold. One could argue that the Volt is above my price threshhold too, but “it’s a game changer”.
BTW, I saw some info on the net about Orlando. It looked intriguing. Almost a mini-van?
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:52 am)Lyle writes “and bring down the prices by the next generation set to begin in 2013″. Wording like “set to begin” sounds like someone knows more than they are telling. I would like to know more about Generation 2.
Does that mean Gen 2 will be model year 2013 available at the end of 2012?
What concrete decisions has GM made as to changes / improvements?
And also where is GM in considering making an SUV and a small pickup EREV? The more models the more they can sell, and the more infrastructure that will appear out there. Are they just sitting on the Volt and Converj or are they moving forward on other models?
+26
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:55 am)GM marketing is in for a big surprise here. Demand is going to be much higher than they expect.
Translation: Yes, we see the Volt as more of a halo car to sell other GM cars and SUVs.
Translation: We’re not sure how many people will actually buy the thing, but the green crowd is really strong in California, so we’ll concentrate our efforts there.
Translation: The last thing we want to do is rush this out the door and end up with a lemon.
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:06 am)“Regarding the sales of Volt, yes, the market will dictate to a certain extent and as you know, we are going to launch regionally to start, California already announced. Importantly, we want to ensure a fantastic owner experience as we progress for a car as special as the Volt. More to come.”
Just FYI, I also ran across a couple of sites that spoke of a “big announcement at 9:30AM on 1/7/2010 from GM and the government” about Volt batteries. I’m guessing that it is the startup of the battery plant in Brownstown MI. I also ran across something that claimed the capacity of that plant would be 70,000 units per year (eventually). And regarding ramp up, this plant is probably more crutial than the assembly plant or an engine plant. Don’t think that GM ever manufactured battery assemblies before. Even if (especialy if?) it is highly automated this is pretty much new territory. The good thing is that it is an “assembly operation”, not fabrication (CPI will be doing that) and if you look at assembling a battery as being similar to assembling a car, well maybe there are a lot of things in common?
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:14 am)In the past, GM has said an EREV SUV or pickup is not practical with current battery technology.
So the closest possibility is an EREV Orlando.
They call it a “micro-van” or “multi-purpose vehicle (MPV)”.
Remember that the Orlando uses the same chassis as the Volt and Cruze, and these are compact cars, like a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic. So the Orlando is probably around the size of a Toyota Matrix, only a tad longer to accommodate 3 rows of seats. What’s amazing is how much cargo area they can squeeze into a small car like that:
+6
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:16 am)“…more to come.’
MORE TO FRIGGIN COME…WTF! Unless the’re in bed, these friggin GM Zombies need to loose that lame expression fast.
I understand the restraints of production from battery capacity and perhaps other components. I understand and agree starting with limited volume in the first year is the right thing to do for a numbr of reasons. I cannot understand why “GM’s new director of Volt Marketing” does say:
“Yes, first years production will be limited by design, but yes we ABSOLUTELY want to profitably sell as many Volts as we can produce”
This doesn’t lock them into any particular production number that may not be achievable. Could they possibly not want this? Is she totally unaware of GM’s history and reputation?
And this friggin green halo thing is way overblown. I don’t see many Prius minded shoppers going to a Chevy dealership to see Volt and walking out with a Malibu or Cruze. Maybe they’ll pull some Camry, Accord, Civic, Corolla, etc buyers but they need to overcome their poor quality image first, not their brown image.
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:24 am)Prius can be considered a so called halo vehicle for Toyota…but it is also one of their best selling vehicles, the base model is “priced nicely under $30K”, and Toyota claims making profit.
Can the Volt achieve the same?
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:24 am)Off Topic (but not so much) there is a very fresh reference to the Volt in the (Montreal) Gazette on the Volt. But the article is a (witty) recap of the most important automotive news of 2009. And this guy (David Booth) is saying pretty much what we are saying: “…and now GM had better deliver the goods.”
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:30 am)First, it’s important to understand who’s doing what.
• LG Chem is making the battery cells, for the prototypes and production.
• CPI (a subsidiary of LG) is assembling the packs for the prototypes only.
• GM is assembling the production packs.
So CPI has no real ongoing production role. GM has replaced them. However, I’m sure CPI is being financially rewarded by LG chem to make sure GM knows how to take over building these. And CPI is also building some battery packs for other GM hybrids.
Second, 70,000 batteries a year is a disappointing number, again confirming GM has no real plans to ramp EREVs into high production.
+41
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:30 am)If GM thinks that I”m going into a Chevy dealership because of the Volt only to walk out with a Malibu or Cruze they’re sorely mistaken. I’m going into the dealership to buy a Volt, not some other gas burning, air polluting, middle-east supporting vehicle.
Get with the program GM. We want the Volt. We want it nationwide and in sufficient numbers to support demand. Period. Geeeeze.
+9
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:51 am)Yes, I agree.
The Prius still uses gas, so it’s not a game changer.
For example, there are many people that hate going to the gas station. With the Volt, you only have to gas up every 3 months. Many people would want a Volt for that feature alone.
Then there are people sick of giving some of their money to terrorists every time they gas up. And people who understand peak oil, and the inevitable affect on gas prices. And people who who can connect-the-dots between military spending and oil. Add in the green crowd, and you have a marketing demographic that covers more than half the population.
So if GM plans to copy the Toyota Prius halo marketing effect, they’re in for a big surprise. People want the Volt because it uses electricity instead of gas for most driving. That’s not an efficiency thing. That’s a different fuel source. So the bait and switch wont work this time…
-12
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:51 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:51 am)Found another interesting article. From “Cape Cod Times”. Speaks of fuel efficiency of Volt as being very impressive. In pure battery mode it gets 100 miles on 25 KWH, which is much better than other vehicles, and in “gas-powered” mode it gets 50 MPG (attributed to the EPA). Link: http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091217/OPINION/912170332/-1/NEWSMAP
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:53 am)Lyle,
I think this picture would be good to go with this post.
http://www.greenmomentum.com/wb3/wb/gm/gm_content?id_content=4380
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:56 am)Lyle asked an excellent question Do you see the Volt as being a halo car to bring people into showrooms, or will you make the effort to sell as many Chevy Volts as the market dictates as soon as they go on sale, and for a profit?
It did not seemed to me that Maria Rohrer answered the question, though what she did say seemed to go with “halo” more than “sell Volts”, at least in my reading, and she re-emphasized the initial limitation to California, which to me is thinking about relatively small numbers of cars to be built.
Insofar as Volt is concerned, perhaps gm has been narrowly focused, though turbulent times, on continuing Volt vehicle development, which seems to have remained mostly on track, and gm management actually has not yet decided their answer to Lyle’s question. For the new management people coming in, it is natural that the spend time first learning about the vehicles they are profitably selling now. Maybe the new management has put off Volt marketing decisions for a little bit, leaving Ms Rohrer to talk generally without being able to go further.
+12
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:08 am)I thought the same thing at first, but after learning more about various engine designs, I realized that a smaller engine is not necessarily more efficient. For example, the 2009 Prius used a 1.5L engine, and the 2010 Prius uses a 1.8L engine with better mileage.
Specifically, an ICE actually works against itself. Much of the power stroke is canceled by the compression stroke. If you change the engine tuning, you can reduce the resistance of the compression stroke and increase the efficiency dramatically, but this changes the power curve so that the maximum low-end torque is much less. Since the Volt uses an electric motor for low-end torque, this is not a problem.
In addition, some engine tunings run more efficiently at lower RPMs, so a larger engine running slower may be more efficient than a smaller engine running faster. Since the engine in the Volt is not connected to the wheels, RPM is also not a factor here, so they can use any RPM they want.
Bottom line: Let’s wait and see what the final numbers are before we pass judgment.
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:12 am)A agree that the Volt may become a halo vehicle. I think this mostly due to it’s size, as many Americans like larger vehicles (myself included).
I think Volt/Ampera should be very successful in Europe.
Part of my reasoning is that we like trucks and SUV’s in this country. The only problem is that they use too much fuel. One of the best selling vehicles right now is the Chevy Equinox, rated 22/32 city/highway. It uses a 2.4L 4 cyl. engine with gasoline direct injection (DI).
I’m seeing rumors that GM has developed a new V8 engine line that includes DI. This will allow trucks to have smaller, more efficient engines, yet with similar power.
Now let’s consider the Tahoe hybrid. It is currently rated 21/22 WITH 4WD. Upgrade the small NiMh battery pack to the Li-Ion 8 kwh (4 kwh usable) from the plug-in Vue, and now you can drive the Tahoe at 30 to 40 mph on electic drive only. You also will get more regen with the higher battery power. Use a smaller V8 with DI, add some more aero mods, and we could see a new rating of ~ 26/28 without the plug!!
Now with the plug-in option, you can blend ~12 miles electric. Thus a daily 40 mile commute becomes ~ 28 miles on gasoline, equating to 40 mpg!
So given the choice of the Volt, or for another $10k, you get a 40 mpg Tahoe, what’s the soccer mom going to opt for?
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:27 am)Volt can be or cannot be halo but GM needs a prius beater and prius is no longer a halo car
. I am also waiting for orlando as a low cost erev – may be second/third gen-erev technology will help 
I have an idea to suggest for govt . Idea is to create a new class of cars which has different /less tax and insurance ( like kei in japan ). I think they should put a set of rules for a car to qualify for that rules ( like 100 mpg ( with no plug – only mpg and from regeneration ,any alternative energy supply – rules should vary ) , 4 wheeler, 5 star safety rating on all ,min – 2 person carrying capacity , high way capable, lowest emission ,flex fuel capable etc etc ) so that if any manufacturer can come with products which satisfies all the above , They can sell with less tax and very different insurance laws etc so that people has to spend only very less to maintain the car apart from regular maintenance. For Plug in, The rules has to change and the rules need to be moving rules so that the manufacturers who can answer this rules can create and sell cars with advantage and people will buy as it has advantage. This seems to be the reason couple of concept cars never took off ( ex: 1984 Chevrolet Citation IV , Ford probe series, GM Precept etc ).If there is a rule like this , i am sure, engineering will have answer.Its a new market creation and helps companies to innovate + creates new market. It will be great if lyle can come up a post on this idea so that more people will start thinking on this ( like Kei for US ? ) . 100 mpg seems not high in this class target because aptera already achieves above this.
+15
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:37 am)I invite you to stop in and drive a Corvette, a Camaro, an Equinox and a Silverado. The “Quality” is there, and it will show through in all of the new GM products. “They get it” now. It’s a shame you will not admit it.
+4
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:41 am)Let’s give GM some room to grow the Volt story. After all, they are the ones building this fantastic car during three years of the most turbulent time in the history of the automotive industry. That they have stuck with it is a minor miracle in itself. If the Volt becomes the huge success we all think it will, GM will have no choice but to try and meet demand in a timely manner. Remember, this is brand new technology and it would be impossible to turn out hundreds of thousands of vehicles right out the gate. And remember, they have to become a profit-making company again during the transition period from gas to electric which will be a lot longer than we would like.
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:13 am)While we’re dreamily looking up at “the halo” it’s just that much easier for peak oil to smash us in the chin.
Northern hemisphere winter sends oil price soaring
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/northern-hemisphere-winter-sends-oil-price-soaring/story-e6frg8zx-1225816069026
/where’s global warming when you need it?
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:17 am)I don’t care whether it’s a halo car or not. For me (a customer), it’s only about the car that I’m likely to buy — not about the product line. It’s about the car that I’m going to use every day for the next 5-10 years.
Why would I care about an entire vendor’s product line? Cars aren’t like computers, where I can move major subsystems from one machine to machine with a screwdriver and expect it to work, so there’s no benefit to owning all of my cars from one vendor. I’m also not a fleet buyer, so I don’t benefit from lower overhead by only dealing with one vendor.
It’s likely that I’ll own the best (by my criteria) vehicle that I can afford in each category I need — for instance I might choose to own, the best high-efficiency runabout for commuting and grocery shopping, and the best passenger/cargo minivan for road-tripping with the kids and home improvement projects. I’m not going to “upgrade” from a small car to a big car, since small vehicles and big vehicles are different tools for different jobs.
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:19 am)Lyle, I deeply appreciate your drive and enthusiasm here, but there are a couple of things that still leave me skeptical.
First, the sentence you often use “free the Country from oil” or similar, well I wish it were that simple; I think the Volt’s contribution to that will unfortunately be like a drop in the sea.
It’s a good beginning, no doubt, and I am with you saying that somebody has to make the first move, but I guess I’m a little less optimistic than you
Second, and here I’m a little stronger, how can one possibly think GM will be able to make profit out of the Volt? It is an ‘image’ product and, as such, is not meant to be the primary source of profit (and not the second or the third, either). And even more importantly, how do you think GM could ever risk to push on the volumes for such a new product?
Almost all launches of new ‘normal’ cars are accompanied by some sort of (major) troubles, so would *you* feel relaxed to launch a high number of Volts risking — or better, being nearly *sure* that you will have problems you will not be able to manage? (e.g. dealers unable to fix flaws, despite their trainings; customers stuck in some situations not considered by testing, which happens more than you think; warranty costs in general, etc.).
And here I am again with you thinking there will be indeed an initial high demand for the Volt; but I’m also sure GM will never risk to increase volumes at launch to make more people happy in the first place… and have them most probably furious shortly after.
It is simply against any industrial rule.
Maybe the fact that I work in the automotive field is influencing my view
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:20 am)“Do you see the Volt as being a halo car to bring people into showrooms …”
It seems pointless to ask this question, since the Volt will not have wide availability at first, for a variety of reasons; and GM would be remiss not to get the most ‘mileage’ out of the limited number of units by using them as showroom draws. The issue is just how much more is to come.
We have been focussed here on convincing GM to “get the Volt’s wheels on the road,” a task which is now largely complete. Our emphasis has to shift to convincing GM to ramp EREV units to meaningful levels (available models as well as overall numbers), and move beyond the ‘halo’ as quickly as possible. Our greatest hope is that market demand will do much of our work for us; but this cannot happen until a majority of the driving public understands what Volt is, and what it means; this is not the case today.
In the near term, the important question seems to be: “how will GM promote the Volt?”
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:23 am)IMHO, the volt will be a “pseudo” halo car in the fact that it will be very scarce at the beginning, but later, there will be plenty of units to go around. Another point is that the volt is slated for immediate introduction into Utility fleets. Other “halo” cars of the era, like the Charger, Challenger, Corvette, etc. don’t start life as a fleet vehicle.
Like everyone else, I want one anyway.
We may be able to draw a parallel to the way Nintendo introduced the Wii. At the beginning, they were very scarce. A “black market” immediately showed up on ebay where units regularly sold for $700+. But after a while, things became very routine and normal.
I also agree that GM is grossly underestimating the initial demand for these cars. If the timing is not right, this demand may be filled quickly by other options on the market, leaving GM with a whole field of these cars sitting on lots for too long.
Only the Wizard of Oz knows for sure.
-2
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:27 am)A Toyota Matrix?
Remember, GM isn’t the only company that makes cars. It’s got the beat the competition’s vehicles, not their own vehicles. And I haven’t heard of Pontiac Vibe being revived under a different badge.
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:28 am)Great point that a halo car does not necessarily mean a car with low sales volume.
As for price, an EV is going to cost more than an ICE car because a gas tank costs $500 and a battery pack costs 10X or 20X more. But the running costs are much lower, so the question isn’t so much whether it will cost the same, it’s the size of the premium. Plus of course how much smooth and quiet the ride is!
I’ve mentioned this before, but the people I know who have bought a Prius have not moved “up” from a Corolla, they’ve moved “down” from a BMW or Mercedes or Jaguar. The Prius has been the modern version of the VW Bug — something quite different that shatters the conceptions of what is desirable — and the Volt will be the same. Assuming of course that GM makes more than 10,000.
+5
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:29 am)Do these people go to college to learn how to not answer a direct question?????
I truly mean no disrespect to Ms. Rohrer, but the corporate doublespeak language that seems to come out of these executives is remarkable.
The simple answer to low first year production is that GM is afraid that they might still have an unexpected “big” problem that might not be discovered until the cars get out into the real world with all of us crazy drivers. And they sure as heck do not want or need the black eye it would create. It would be easier and a lot cheaper to fix 10K cars, instead of 240K, don’t you think???
+4
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:31 am)I disagree. When I take my Volt on a roadtrip, I am going to need
The power. This car needs to maintain drivability after the initial 40 miles. Pushing the Volt up mountains at the speed limit. Or just a smidge over.
I am interested in seeing what the volt does on a day like this. -10f.
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:33 am)Your maturity and the elegance with which you express yourself make me envious!
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:38 am)I think many people forget the discussions on exactly how many new components had to be re-engineered, tested and designed for the Volt. And lets not forget the compressed development schedule.There is so much NEW to this car that GM is clearly beong cautious to not promise too much, too many, and too soon. If they didn’t deliver, the auto critics would be all over them.
Plus, the battery packs themselves are not exactly sitting around in warehouses. These things will be rare and at a premium for a LONG time.
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:38 am)When they say not practical for larger vehicles, I assume they are mostly concerned with how long it takes to charge. But a large SUV or Pickup wouldn’t need quite twice as big a battery. If the Volt can get by with 8KWh per charge, I would think a large SUV/Pickup could get by with 12 KWh per charge, which is still very doable for overnight and charging at work. I think the charging at work or during the day at home on many occasions is the trick that actually makes these vehicles SAVE money at current gas prices.
Of course in 5 years the current gas prices could well be ‘the good old days’
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:43 am)Thankfully for us GM’s taking the extra time to make sure the Voltec system has sufficient durability before ramping up to high volume mass production. Public education and acceptance of Voltec, EREV, BEV technology safety is an area where early Volt adopters should be able to help considerably.
While Voltec technology reduces the use of gasoline does it also reduce the use of oil based plastics used for components within the cars? It may take many years before enough EREVs and BEVs are manufactured to significantly reduce U.S. and global gasoline consumption beyond a fraction of a percent, but Voltec technology is one of the starting points.
Go Volt!
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:44 am)It would be interesting to see how many Volts GM could sell in CA if it allocated all the Volts to that market. That would be one way to gauge demand nationwide. Just keep pumping all production into the state until the dealers slow their orders. Then multiply by 4X to calculate the nationwide demand for initial units (CA is about 10% of the market for cars but probably 25% of the market for EVs — just a guess).
Not really suggesting this approach but it would give a good idea of total initial demand, which would answer a lot of questions.
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:44 am)I’d throw in the Impala too. Mine is flawless, I like the 32 mpg on the freeway.
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:46 am)I guess the folks at Nissan with their more aggessive plans on the Leaf are not familiar with the ‘industrial rule’. Of course in the Leaf as a BEV is more simple than the EREV.
+4
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:49 am)DITTO!!!!
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:56 am)I don’t think GM knows what they have with the Volt. After multiple transmission and engine failures and other pesky issues, I have only been driving Toyota’s for years. Sold my Corolla with over 300,000 miles on it and my Camry (built in the U.S.) has 249,000. I’ve been waiting for an American company to build a car I want to drive and own for a long time, and the Volt is it in perfect form and function. Lyle has eloquently articulated the reasons I want a Volt. The recent comments by GM execs suggest to me that they don’t know what the Volt is and what they have. Have you ever heard Steve Jobs be so lukewarm with a new Apple product? Jobs makes you think that everyone should own the new product (and the products typically deliver).
I don’t need to go in to showrooms to see the other Chevy’s, I drive in other people’s new GM cars often. My Father’s new Malibu is nice, but it in no way makes me think I should get rid of my current car.
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:02 am)Thank you. Wow. Suddenly, I’m speechless!
+7
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:05 am)Careful, Ms. Rohrer. If a car shopper goes in to see a Volt specifically, and a salesperson starts steering them toward conventional vehicles, that quite likely will be a major turnoff. Whether there’s a Volt in the building or not.
But here’s the larger risk, IMO, than just irritating the shopper: I think she may be overlooking that possibility that “sorry we can’t sell you a Volt today” is also a ‘portal’ directly to buying some other company’s product.
Let me expand on that.
In the past 17 years, I’ve personally purchased five brand new GM vehicles: two Saturn SL2s (both had stick-shifts), two GMC Sierra 4×4 x-cabs, and a Malibu for my girlfriend. She previously owned a Monte Carlo and Grand Prix, also purchased new. We’re a couple of GM die-hards, obviously.
Speaking for myself, regardless of how cheap or pricey gas was, fuel efficiency was ALWAYS a major consideration; and so was national security.
Though the Saturns were superior, and the Malibu ain’t exactly awful in the MPG department, I’ve bought my final gas-only car… if I have anything to say about it. A California-only rollout does nothing for me up here in Wisconsin. 20,000 EREVs a year doesn’t help me either. But my truck and the GF’s Malibu will not last forever. I could be forced to look elsewhere. And to start moving away from oil, be it foreign (especially) or domestic, I will do that.
I think it would behoove ms. Rohrer and GM to consider this. I also think I’m far from the only person who holds these views.
It’s the 21st Century for cryin’ out loud. Time to go electric for transportation purposes, and start leaving ground-sourced hydrocarbons behind as much as possible.
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:09 am)As usual, Lyle asked good questions, and it seems that the answers are getting more and more vague. There are any number of reasons why this might be the case. I’d like to think that as we near the release date of the Volt, GM is just holding their cards closer to the vest to not tip their hand to the competition. After the huge investment GM has made to date, I doubt that the Volt is going to be relegated to a minor, low production number, model. Still, it’s concerning that we end up parsing each phrase from a *marketing* exec, as to what will actually happen down the road a but.
As always, I remain optimistic that given a prudent release of the Volt, demand will far exceed supply for a couple of years and will lay the foundation of exciting generations of vehicles to come.
Even though this is obviously a very positive group of (mostly) Volt supporters, there *are* limits to virtuous patience. I’m feeling like I need something more to keep me going. Maybe I just need coffee (or medication) JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+4
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:15 am)Well said!
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:17 am)This early in the game, a 1.4 liter engine capable of providing full performance with a depleted battery is far from ridiculous. As battery technology and economies of scale improve, I have no doubt that the vehicle you describe will be built; and that GM will develop it.
The ability of the battery pack to buffer the limited output of a smaller engine to all driving demands is limited by it’s available cycle lifetime. For now, these cycles must be kept to a minimum; requiring an engine which can be run over a range of speeds. Once batteries improve, this may no longer be the case; and a smaller, single-speed engine can be used. The limiting factor in this case is not the engine, but the batteries.
-21
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:28 am)(click to show comment)
+4
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:30 am)Somehow after reading her answer to Lyle’s question I am left wondering just what she said in relation to the question asked. Absolutely nothing given away by her answer. I guess it is to be expected. If GM continues this trend much longer, I will lose interest in even reading anything about the Volt because there will be nothing new to report. IMO, of course.
-20
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:32 am)(click to show comment)
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:37 am)At 3900lbs, the Volt is only slightly heavier than my 4027lb 4-door, V-8 pickup. Seems to me that a smallish pickup-type vehicle for us suburban homeowners is quite doable. Even 12 miles AER would be pretty much all-electric to go to Home Depot and back.
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:38 am)I’m rubber, you’re glue …
How’s that for elegant, Don?
… but Neil, you know you’d miss trolls like the pooter, here!
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:39 am)8:30 am
Right! My sentiments exactly.
+6
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:45 am)#27: “First, the sentence you often use “free the Country from oil” or similar, well I wish it were that simple; I think the Volt’s contribution to that will unfortunately be like a drop in the sea.”
You’re right, let’s not bother.
For me, once i have my Ampera, my solar install and a bank of batteries, I will use very little oil or fossil fuel of any description. I can watch the news with impunity, the soldiers are not fighting to secure oil for -me-. Yes, yes, it’s used to transport my food and manufacture my clothes, but once I can demonstrate i no longer wish (or need) to purcahse oil, then the rest of the transportation industry will follow.
if you told me in 1990 that i could one day fit a 256gb flash drive in my pocket i would not have believed you. first, you would have had to explain what a gigabyte was, wowed as i was by my friends new 1.44mb floppy drive. next, you’d have to explain what USB was. i guess finally you’d have to explain the idea of storing video and music on my computer, to justify why you’d want that much storage. 20 years is a REALLY long time when it comes to technology. with a large scale application (and many £ to be had) such as cars, batteries and their control systems will look completely different in 20 years. i hope we’ll be well on the way to every home having microgeneration (we have PV, wind and CHP to choose from so far, there will be more) with a battery bank and huge grid level battery storage for wind and tidal farms.
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:46 am)Hi Jim I 32…
I agree, we are not getting straight answers. GM is being careful. It’s a question of acceptance of their new electric drive vehicle. Not the fear of having a wide recall. This obvious nervousness is stoked with the 2010 release of about 100,000 EV units from other manufacturers.
A second factor is acceptance of styling. Looking back at the 2009 GM Volt dot com feedback we can point to many styling areas that people wished were a little bit different. None of these is a deal breaker, but they are cause for concern.
A third factor is the question of 1st gen vs 2nd gen models. A fair number of perspective buyers will wait for 2nd gen. This is because new technology takes time to perfect. Technology is honed and polished for 20 years. Then replaced by advanced technology.
One of the gen 1 / gen 2 changes will be a revamped control panel (iPod unit). I suggest placing the controls along the top line of the dash. Like placing PC icons horizontally across the top of your desktop. This will solve the issue of having to reach to the center panel to make on the fly adjustments. The driver will be able to see what is coming in front.
Another idea is to fit the position of the driver further under the dash. Encircle the driver with a U shape LCD display. More of an Indy car feel.
It has been said here many times. The first 10,000 Volt will not reach the hands of the common buyer. These owners will be the rich, famous, and the political. The gen 1 Volt may sticker at $38,900. But, it will take $50k to touch one of the first 10,000 units.
=D~
+4
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:50 am)Hey Jackson, that’s the first time I’ve heard you called a troll, by a troll (lol). You’re on a roll today!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (12:06 pm)9:37 am
I have to agree with you there. Between our family and our business, we own 7 Chevrolet vehicles, dating from 1917 to 2006. They are all very reliable, and do the job they were designed for extremely well. My S-10 just turned over 237K miles, and it runs jut fine.
My only problem is that I want my next Chevrlet to be a world class fuel economy Prius beater, and we aren’t there yet.
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (12:12 pm)10:28 am
I agree.
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (12:16 pm)10:43 am
“A journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step.”
Jan 4th, 2010 (12:18 pm)10:44 am
Works for me, LOL!
Jan 4th, 2010 (12:22 pm)11:09 am
Yeah, me too.
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (12:23 pm)I certainly is good to see all the copying of the Volt technology… this is a clear sign of a successful product design…
I’ve owned 3 Chevrolets in the last 35 years… they were all very good vehicles… my 1984 Caprice was the best vehicle I’ve ever owned. My current Buicks may turn out to be even better. GM has the largest and most comprehensive testing facility in the world at it’s Milford proving grounds.
I wonder if Toyota is going to bring another unfair advantage lawsuit against GM? Toyota sued GM claiming that if they advertised that they build cars and trucks with stainless steel exhausts GM would have a unfair advantage.
That’s why GM isn’t allowed to advertise this clear advantage… while Mercedes has receintly advertised putting stainless steel exhausts on it’s most expensive models… Chevy has been putting stainless exhausts on it’s low end Cobalt all along.
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (12:32 pm)Hi Noel,
Glad to hear that I’m not the only one – though several of the posts suggest dissatisfaction with the “info” provided.
Maybe it’s the post holidays doldrums, but a juicy informative release would sure be a blessing.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (12:40 pm)And that’s the real question, what is the demand? You feel strongly, but how many others do? A few hundred people coming to this site and stamping their feet everyday doesn’t mean that main street America is ready to gladly plunk down $40k for the thrill of not going to the gas station.
If gas shoots through the roof, there will definitely be a surge in interest, but can GM make the sales pitch good enough to keep people out of the Toyota dealership? With Toyota’s new, smaller Yaris sized hybrid coming out that will no doubt have an even smaller price tag and higher mileage than the Prius, the Volt may be a tough sell to the reactionary crowd that just wants to save on gas. At this point in time, the Volt and all EVs for that matter, really mostly appeal to visionaries with an eye to the future of transportation and people deeply concerned about the environment or national security. This not the typical profile of the American car buyer. After GM, Nissan and others finally get EVs into the hands of people like those on this blog who have been pining for them ever since the EV-1, how many more EV customers are there?
Jan 4th, 2010 (12:52 pm)This is not a rational question. It is a ‘Halo car’ whether you admit or not. It is not profitable but it boosts GM’s image. Therefore, it is a halo car.
Jan 4th, 2010 (12:56 pm)BTW, a slow ramp-up is advisable. They lose money on the cars now. This gives them time to perfect the cars . . . and the early buyers will be forgiving enthusiasts. And this gives more time for oil prices to rise. Like it or not, the price of oil is really the #1 factor in whether the Volt succeeds or not. BTW, oil cleared $81/barrel today . . . it is getting back up there.
Jan 4th, 2010 (1:02 pm)Interesting article on upcoming “new and improved” battery technology:
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/24288/?a=f
Jan 4th, 2010 (1:05 pm)I think that GM’s minimum criterion for success with the Volt is that it succeed as a halo car (which it will almost certainly do). Their 2010 production numbers and rigorous testing seem to suggest this at least.
I think they are looking at 2010 as an opportunity to gauge the market acceptance and ramp-up accordingly. Also, they get their feet wet with the technology in a significant way, making those incremental improvements that will further strengthen the platform going forward.
I don’t dismiss the notion that battery technology is not quite mature yet, or that the ICE is not a perfect match from an engineering standpoint. Still, from what I’m reading, it looks like new chemistries and technologies are coming on line which will increase not only the energy density of the battery, but also its ability to undergo deep discharge cycles. When this is folded into the mix in 2011-2015, the Voltec platform will be very compelling.
If we see really high demand for the Volt, we should also start to see some designs for Voltec specific ICEs (as opposed the the more economically sound reuse of the Cruze ICE). Personally, it would love to see the development of high-power, low weight, rotary type internal combustion engines, like the RadMax, Wave Rotor, or the Libralato engine.
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (1:18 pm)I agree completely. Improvements in battery technology will open the door for these improved engines; engines unable to take to the road without an EREV architecture. There is little point in advancing engine technology into production before the batteries are up to the job of buffering (load matching) a very efficient engine’s output to the variable demands of real world driving. This is what I was trying to say in my #47. Let’s get EREV established, batteries improved, then stand back for a new revolution in the gensets which can support it.
There are great efficiency gains to be made by separating the job of creating the energy from the job of moving the car: we’re just on the eve of that revolution; a story which will grow significantly from initially humble beginnings.
Jan 4th, 2010 (1:26 pm)Amen to that! I’m looking forward to seeing the technological advances in batteries and ICEs that will come on-line once EREV technology becomes well established. If this all pans out, it will be a very interesting decade for the automobile industry!
Jan 4th, 2010 (1:29 pm)Thanks for the link. I’d read that article earlier today. It looks promising (lower weight, higher energy), but untested in a lot of the areas that would allow it to be applied to vehicles (temp extremes, cycles/life, vibration) etc.
Exciting times technologically.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (1:41 pm)likewise
-4
Jan 4th, 2010 (1:52 pm)Humble !!!
With all the attention placed on Volt long before the first purchase is made, that adjective doesn’t even remotely come close to reality.
As for significant growth, the production numbers will reveal that part of the story.
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (2:05 pm)I hate to sound all haves and have not but Lyle your comment about the Volt being affordable is coming from someone who must be a doctor or something and can afford an $800 a month lease payment for a two seater electric car
The Volt will never be a mass market car at $40K even with a $7500 tax break. Think of what the Volt is competing with at the price. BMW 3 series, Mercedes, etc. No one is going to buy a $40 Chevy! For five grand more you can buy a base Corvette for crying out load!
Gen 2 will be the mass market car. At a base price of $35K, rebates and a little haggling at purchase you are looking at something in the $20Ks. THAT will make the Volt a winner and me a buyer. I can’t afford a $40K car and neither can most of America. For those who can please buy the Volt so there CAN be a Gen 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
+4
Jan 4th, 2010 (2:15 pm)Surely your posts here about the Volt have portrayed it as HUMBLE. If you’d like to reverse your historical stance re the Volt, and acknowledge it’s potential, I’d certainly understand (shocked, but I’d understand that you’d finally accepted that the Volt holds significant strengths – just as the Prius does).
BTW, john, how many folks from this site are regular visitors of your Prius site who consistently post against it’s theme? Maybe more of us should…
/vitriol off.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (2:19 pm)Out of news :
Chevrolet Beat (Sparc) launched in india, same as concept as per transformers
A review:
http://www.autocarindia.com/roadtest/chevrolet-beat-lt
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (2:43 pm)I agree that everything so far has pointed to a 40K price for the Volt and although I still think that they’d sell-out at that price (and initially modest production numbers), the actual price has not yet been disclosed by GM. That won’t happen until a few months before it’s actual release, so at least there is still hope that price will be closer to a more affordable level.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (2:57 pm)Yes, it would be, and it might be a good thing to do.
Jan 4th, 2010 (3:12 pm)The Prius suffering from quality issues, especially the regenerative braking, and Honda not having any luck with the 2nd generation Insight might mean that Chevy should be considering RAISING the expected retail price of the Volt ABOVE the $40K figure everyone is talking about. That may sound unreasonable but the first “so many thousand” Volts won’t be sold to “reasonable” folks in the first place. They will go to “statement making” folks, “do like me”s, and similar large ego personalities. Why shouldn’t GM recoup more of the development cost right up front from those attention hounds. For sure that’s what the Chevy dealers are going to do!
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (3:35 pm)For the sake of everyone else reading this thread, I’ll elaborae: The future of EREV will make the current 1.4 liter Cruze-derived engine and LG Li/Ion pack seem very humble indeed. I am comparing the future of the Volt with it’s present state, not the state of any other make. The scope of the EREV revolution to come is far beyond what most of us here can imagine (far less a one-dimensional Prius fanboy such as yourself).
I guess you will have to wait, along with your Japanese mentors, for the future to play itself out before beginning to appreciate the truth of this. The Prius is very close to the absolute limits of it’s possible development. In it’s infancy, Volt will be more than a match for it in nearly every respect; and you’ll probably look back on the Volt’s salad days as “the end of the good times.” Enjoy your Prius-as-king fixation while you can; in maybe five years, you won’t be able to do so without seeming completely pathetic.
Jan 4th, 2010 (3:48 pm)No idea what a “Halo Car” is. The Volt represents good technology in the “Electric Vehicle” subject and gives the “New GM” a chance to show they are inovative with a gut drive like I remember of the past.
My thoughts are more on the subject of sticking to the technology and development line than worrying about if it is going to be labelled as a “Halo Car”. There will be people that don’t like it, don’t want it and will do all they can to down it. So be it! let us continue to build and improve with a sence of dignity and purpose as, EV is the car of the fuure, even if the Oil Industry doesn’t like it.
Being winter, is the Volt going to be employed with an internal heating system of the cab that can be turn on during the recharging cycle so that, when driving the auto in cold climate does not use the valuable electric charge heating the cab?
Jan 4th, 2010 (4:01 pm)Undoubtably VOLT will have a very large halo effect, provided the Hollywood “conspicuous environmentalists” embrace it as they should. I assume it will also be embraced by lots of politicians who want to promote America’s green initiatives and ingenuity.
If GM does their marketing well, VOLT product placement in movies and to the right celebrities will create some serious positive buzz about VOLT.
GM, actually respected by the masses? It could happen soon.
For those of us who have followed VOLT for a long time, it will be very exciting to watch the obscure object of our interest become a great big star!
Yeah Baby! Go VOLT!
Jan 4th, 2010 (4:10 pm)I’m going in to buy an electric vehicle. If I can’t get one at Chevy,I’ll buy elsewhere. Ford Magna Focus, Nissan Leaf. GM initial quality has never been bad, it’s a few years after purchase that crap starts failing and falling apart and off. If they limit initial quantity to were I can’t purchase one they will lose me as a customer. Simple. Oh!, and the vehicle needs to coast when I want it to for me to consider it.
Jan 4th, 2010 (4:13 pm)2:43 pm
You have inspired me to try to sort out a thought which keeps coming back to me as I read all of these comments the last few days. That and the fact that I am so saddened each day on the way to work to be in one of the VERY few cars on the LA freeways produced in the US by a US company.
I have heard a lot recently that, once the health care debate is over, the President is going to try to focus attention on the issue of job creation. Many/most of us have commented at length over the
months regarding the many potential advantages of the Volt including, but by no means limited to, reduction in imported oil, maintaining of a US manufacturing base, lessened air pollution, lessening the balance of payments hemorrhage, and lessening the necessity of “oil wars”. And building more of them would create more jobs!
So, I modestly proppose that one of the best job creation measures would be to offer MUCH more powerful incentives for the purchase of the Volt. Maybe PHEV cars in general, but I’m prejudiced, in case you hadn’t noticed. I did notice that one or more of the countries offering a variant of the “cash for clunkers” program did restrict it to domestically produced cars. Duhhh!!
So I see this as at least a win, win, win, win, win, win situation. Probably quite a few more if I thought about it awhile longer. Once I proposed giving one out to each family in the US for free. Still cheaper than Iraq.
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (4:22 pm)Dude, I’m with you on their quality being improved but that is not the general public’s (or trade magazine’s) perception. This is GM’s most difficult hurdle to get past.
-4
Jan 4th, 2010 (4:25 pm)Maria Rohrer said, “We believe Volt will bring folks into Chevrolet that have never considered us before.”
It’s disheartening to hear a GM exec say this. The effect of a halo car on a car company is non-existent.
If halo cars would be of any service to GM, then why is GM in such crappy shape? They have and have had halo cars of various stripes for a long time, the ‘Vette being the premier example of a halo car… it’s probably the hottest and best sports car in a mainstream auto manufacturer’s showroom. You’ve got to go to a Porsche or similar to do better.
The relationship of individual car models s to the remainder of the brand is a function of satisfaction. If a particular car model from a brand offers good satisfaction, the other car models s in the brand will be considered, when their capabilities are desired (a happy Malibu owner will consider an Equinox if he decides he wants a compact sport-ute). If a particular model is dissatisfying, it will decrease interest in examining other models from the brand, even if they are uniquely suitable.
The Volt has a narrow window to win a thin slice of customers over in the “electric car” market segment, as there’s almost no competition in that market segment. This situation won’t last long and the Volt muddies the waters by having a liquid fuel filler port and by offering worst-in-class seating capacity (considering compact vehicles as a whole). If it satisfies these owners, then these people may become converts.
But nobody’s going to go into a Chevy showroom to look at a Volt and come out with a Malibu.
-4
Jan 4th, 2010 (4:28 pm)Where do you find any quantifiable validation of your opinion that GM quality has improved?
In 2003, Lutz guaranteed that GM quality was just as good as anyone else’s. I Invite you to read the last few years of Consumer Reports and check the difference in ratings between the 2003 Chevrolets and the 2003 Toyotas.
GM didn’t get it then and I don’t see any reason to believe they get it now.
Jan 4th, 2010 (4:29 pm)I don’t find it hard to imagine someone going in to look at a Volt and coming out with a Cruze, as the Cruze would have a similar size and appearance while (presumably) costing much less. People posting on this blog would never do such a thing, but most any other comparison shopper will consider it.
Jan 4th, 2010 (4:32 pm)The incentive would be great — good for the customer and good for the county — but it is a stretch for me to see it as a job creation program.
Jan 4th, 2010 (4:36 pm)dagwood #87
check out J D powers regarding Buick.
-6
Jan 4th, 2010 (4:40 pm)I did. Initial Quality. You’re making me laugh. In fact, I’ll bet every time GM talks about the JDP Initial Quality survey, Toyota execs breathe a sigh of relief as they realize that GM still doesn’t get it.
CR is, for better or worse, the Gold Standard in quality assessment. Until GM is matching Toyota, dot for dot, on CR’s assessments, GM’s reputation for quality will remain Not As Good. This has been obvious for 20 years but GM has never done anything about it.
Well, except talk. They do talk.
Jan 4th, 2010 (4:48 pm)Found this “Demand for the Chevy Volt will far exceed supply, enabling GM to price the car lower than it costs to built it, but create dominant mindshare among consumers for plug-in electric cars that offer range-extending gas motors. This will be a challenging business case for GM to make, but by late 2010, it should see a tentative return to profitability as truck and SUV sales recover. Volt’s slice of the total market will be relatively small, so losing money on the car will be OK.” from Slate, “The Big Money, Shifting Gears, the Year Ahead”
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:32 pm)Also the Malibu. GM has come a long way (as hve other US auto manufactures)
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:37 pm)old man
Happy New year.
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:37 pm)Exactly. Everyone keeps quoting this 40k price when we have no idea if GM will market Volt as a 25k car or a 55k car. I have a feeling (since it *is* a Chevy) that it will be in the more affordable arena.
A fully-loaded V-6 Malibu is $32,980 msrp. I surmise (or speculate, as it were) that a Volt wouldn’t be higher than this on the sticker. Now dealers, that’s another story. A high-demand car, like we expect, will be slammed with a shocking dealer markup (like 15k over sticker). Plus, you won’t be able to get a ‘stripped down’ model at all. What dealer in their right mind would order a first-year Volt without all the options? Plus, they will load up any ‘dealer options’ as well.
What’d be really cool is a Foose Volt!
http://www.chipfoose.com/
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:37 pm)My (personal) problems with the suggestion of greater incentives from the Govt for the Volt center on the fact that it puts the Congress (Lord help us) in the business of picking “winners”. They have a less than stellar track record (doing *anything* IMO). The other “quibble” would be: “Where do they get the money to fund the incentives” (calling it “investing” still means “spending”). They either print more, borrow more, or take it from someone.
I recognize that my feelings are likely in the minority here, and certainly respect those with different views (with a couple of exceptions)(g). I’m just being honest.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:38 pm)I’m sorry, I don’t see how the “halo” effect is going to work, here.
The Volt is just TOO different from other “typical” cars to make people jump some kind of associative link between them.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m not interested in any other GM vehicles other than the Volt, unless they happen to have another one in their lineup that goes 40 miles without using any oil. It’s that very difference that will bring me to a GM dealership instead of to some other dealership and it’s also that very difference that will keep me AWAY from their other cars. I just don’t see a large potential for a halo effect here.
I mean, it’s like saying their diesel-electric locomotive engines cast a halo over their gasoline cars. (Actually, to me anyway, they do kind of kind of cast a halo over the Volt
)
Maybe it will boil down to a matter of perception. I perceive the Volt as being so different as to be completely unrelated to the other cars they make (much like the locomotive engines) but if people perceive the Volt as a typical car that is somehow cooler, then that might lead to the halo. I don’t know. I just don’t see it that way, though.
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:43 pm)I enjoy reading CR but it is hardly the Gold Standard. CR has reports from those of its own subscribers who choose to respond, not responses from any sort of broad-based or random sample of buyers, supplemented by limited testing by its own staff.
That is fine as far as it goes, but what you see in CR reports is the thoughts of CR readers, which deviate from those of the typical or average buyer. We all know that GM has had quality problems over some decades now past, but Buicks have been virtually problem-free during these same years. Old man is right.
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:44 pm)VERY cool rides! Thanks for the link.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:47 pm)What a halo car does is more ordinary. It is just a reason for people to stop by a dealership. The halo car brings people in, and then maybe some of them look at other cars while they are there. Traditionally that is what Corvette has done, and now maybe Volt. It is interesting that the halo car does not even have to be for sale to perform its function, just available for viewing.
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:51 pm)=============================
Tag:
It also has very much to do with the “California gets it and the rest of us don’t” mentality and limited distribution model they keep trying to push on us……….. 2010 is the year of the Volt, but not for most of us here.
I would like to, and I am able to purchase a Volt, but I sure am not going to wait forever for it. I truly believe that there are other manufacturers who are working on similar designs, but doing it as a “Skunk Works” type project. So in 2011/2012, there may be other models to look at and purchase. The first major manufacturer to produce a Series Hybrid, or BEV with real world range of 200+ miles that is available for sales and service in NE Ohio and priced around the same as the Volt will win my business. It really is that simple.
If GM loses my sale to someone else because of production timidity or distribution stupidity, then shame on them!
Sorry for the rant!
+3
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:59 pm)You must be buying magazines for the ads and photos and just skip reading the articles. The Camaro has been on the cover of every auto related magazine. The Equinox was also nominated for Car of the Year.
Old attitudes and biases die hard. Hell, even Ford is kicking everyone’s butt in sales. So when you say your ‘perception’ of GM or any American car is worse than a foreign make, then I say you are not driving enough NEW GM cars.
The world us not flat. Get out and check out new horizons. Rent a new Cadillac CTS for a week. GM is better now. All we have to do is get the word out.
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:59 pm)There are ~300M Americans and more than 200M vehicles in the national fleet. Many, many, many of those vehicles are not trucks or SUVs. This whole thing about Americans like trucks is more friggin BS. Sure a lot of Americans do and will continue to but plenty of Americans like plenty of other vehicles. How many Accords, Malibus, Camries, Civics, Focuses, Fits, Yarises, Corollas, etc, etc are sold each year? PLENTY! This was true, even before $4 gas last year. Americans also still buy plenty of minivans and MPVs, despite GMs derision for this market. Size will not exclude them from sufficient market share, although the loss of a 5th seat does hurt. Poor quality, too high of a price, poor marketing, underperforming efficiency can.
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:01 pm)I agree with your premise. But the government already does that with just about everything (picks winners and losers), so why wouldn’t you support a credit that does a lot more then pick a winner.
Its not like they are giving a credit to buy a ICE Ford Focus. We are talking about a credit that more than pays for itself in many ways (keeps american money in the country instead of going to enemies), eventually gets us closer to not having military force to keep the straits of hormuz open etc.
Was reading another article today from folks within Israel. Many people really thing there will be war in 2010. Israel will go after Iranian Nuclear sites. Iran will close the straits of Hormuz. If that happens then it isn’t going to be a matter of how much gas costs, but the fact you won’t be able to get it (I’m sure the government has plans to provide the gas we have to essential services). Hopefully a bus will get you to work and the store.
Of course in a scenario like the above, maybe I don’t want a Volt, because people might kill me to take it from me.
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:03 pm)I find the next to last paragraph chilling…
Quote Maria Rohrer, GM Director of Volt Marketing:
-” … because Volt can be a ‘portal’ to help folks see how far the rest of our cars, trucks and crossovers have improved in quality, style and value.”
You’re the Director of Volt Marketing, so why are you talking up trucks and crossovers?
The Volt will NOT produce the desired halo effect guys.
Are you guys getting it? If you don’t put up something against the LEAF or when the Prius goes Plug-In you guys are f*c**d.
Stop thinking that trucks and crossovers are going to be your bread & butter….them days is over.
Happy new year everybody.
-1
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:11 pm)Just that comment alone cancels out any possibility of being humble.
To even suggest superiority that way is smug, quite the opposite of humble.
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:13 pm)I didn’t even notice it as a rant (g). I’m very sure that there are more than a few of us who will understandably find something else offered that meet our needs before the Volt makes it to our part of the world. It’ll be a shame, but it won’t be tragic because we’ll still be purchasing a vehicle for the same “lofty” reasons.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:20 pm)I’m assuming battery cost and weight are what makes an EREV SUV impractical.
Another issue may be power density. Remember that it’s not just the size of the electric motor that determines horsepower. The battery has to be able to support that much horsepower as well. Battery power is very different than battery energy. Power relates to acceleration. Energy relates to all-electric range. The battery chemistry is always a trade off between the two.
SUVs have strong chassis to deal with off-road abuse. This makes them heavy. In order to make something that heavy accelerate well, you need a lot more horsepower, which is why SUVs have big gas engines. To make an EREV SUV, you would probably need twice the battery size just for horsepower.
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:21 pm)Simple. The ends do not justify the means. I know that your reasoning seems clear to you, but it’s just as clear to me that the govt was never intended to assume this role. I want the govt to protect me and to build roads/infrastructure.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:35 pm)If someone can’t afford a $32,500 or less EREV40 after rebates (let it go CJS), then they really can’t afford a $22,000 standard gas car either unless they don’t drive very much. Of course, a lot will think they can afford the $22K ICE car and not the $32,500 EREV but then struggle with the running costs.
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:42 pm)AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
U funny guy!
I’m late to the party today so i’ll bottom feed the last few posts.
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:42 pm)DAGWOOD @ 91
NO, it’s for LONG TERM quality that Buick is rated number one, along with Jaguar.
Face it you Japanese car braggars have just been punched in the face with American and British car quality.
koz: etc buyers but they need to overcome their poor quality image first, not their brown image.
——————————————————————————-
I invite you to stop in and drive a Corvette, a Camaro, an Equinox and a Silverado. The “Quality” is there, and it will show through in all of the new GM products. “They get it” now. It’s a shame you will not admit it.
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:49 pm)Huh?!?!?!?
How does a test drive define it’s “Quality” for a buyer?
IMHO, “Quality” is how long a car lasts before an “out of pocket” repair has to be done. But at a cars reasonable age. Like my poor 96 Saturn SL2, poor thing needs a new starter but I ain’t gonna b|tch at GM for it. If an out of pocket expense occurs within 4-5 years then your “Quality” is tarnished.
A test drive won’t tell me my tranny won’t need a rebuild in 20,000 miles. Just look at those damn 2002 Ford Explorers. Google it for tranny problems. Will the test drive reveal THAT!
Also, even if some magazine says Joe Schmo’s car has better quality, then why are the imports over selling them?
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:50 pm)Again, my perception of GM’s quality was not the content of my comment. I don’t have an issue with their quality. Perhaps I’m wrong about the general publics perception but from what I read and those people I’m in contact with GM (an all American brands in general) have merketing work to do to bring them close to even with Toyota and Honda in the “general” publics mindset. This may be unjust but it is an issue, a major issue IMO, and one that is overwhelmingly more important than some contrived green halo image. While I have seen some positive writeups on indiviual vehicles and hints that the media percieves some quality improvement. The consistent feeling and undertones I get from the media is that GM is still in catchup mode and has some distance to travel to reach Toyota’s and Honda’s quality. Again, this may not be true but unfortunately the media deals too much in perception these days, IMO.
Jan 4th, 2010 (6:54 pm)I think the govt decided who the winners would be when the govt got into the business of building roads. An interesting thought exercise for me is to ponder what would be the physical form of our communities, industrial areas and the nation as a whole if the private sector was completely responsible for the funding of roads, transportation infrastructure and all transport spending.
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:09 pm)For a VERY long time, the private sector WAS responsible for all those things – and it worked very well.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:17 pm)Just from reading a broad spectrum of things you do get the sense that in general, GM is still considered to have potential quality issues.
I recently bought a 2010 equinox and had to wait 8 weeks for it. I read every article I could find. By the time it arrived I was apprehensive about the quality and was having second thoughts. The test drive 10 weeks ago had gone OK but some of the nit picking started to worry me. Luckily, 5 minutes after taking delivery and 3000 miles later I am very happy. The press can be a bit negative with backhanded comments like “hopefully it will improve on its predecessors lackluster reliability”, etc. etc.
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:22 pm)Thanks R B my friend. I also wish you and your family a great new year.
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:23 pm)It would not be prudent for a car company to price a car initially high only to let the price significantly on the same model a couple years later (like an electronics device) because it would kill resale values and their image.
Tesla, Fisker and others have been careful not to reduce the price of their initial high-end model, but rather introduce different, less expensive models later, while keeping their initial models expensive.
Ellectronics can be priced differently since they are typically less expensive, have a shorter life, and are constantly becoming outdated by better products — that is very different from what people expect in a car.
I am personally willing to pay a premium for an American-made EREV like the Volt, but I expect that the resale value of the car should follow a familiar depreciation pattern. If not it will be viewed unfavorably.
I am actually glad that GM decided to start with a mass market car because it will allow them to improve their fuel efficiency image more quickly and to actually make an impact on our foriegn oil dependance. But they need to be patient and worry about getting it right before worrying about volumes and profits. If they get it right profits will evenutally come.
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:24 pm)The number of “problems” differentiating brands in most reports I’ve seen are trivial. I’ve also owned GM vehicles and Honda’s. I’ve been in plenty of both cars. The fit and finish is closer as well as the quality. Heck, a lot of the parts are even the same. This is why Toyota was concerned that GM might go Chpt 7. I don’t think they are on par across the board but for me they are close enough that buying American is of more importance than a CR reported potentiality of a minutely larger likelihood of a problem. The 5% back I get from the GM card more than covers this risk.
I must admit, if GM wasn’t developing the Volt, I would have stopped using the card in ’07 and stopped buying GM products.
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:28 pm)Huh? Fisker reduce the price on what? They haven’t even delivered a vehicle. Tesla has only been raising prices and are barely eeking out a profit at that.
I’m not saying you’re wrong but the examples don’t wash. GM can reduce the price to the post tax credit amount without much damage, but it doesn’t matter that much. They will have Gen2 or Gen3 as well as other vehicles out by that time. The Volt as we know it today may not even be offered by then.
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:30 pm)I will throw in my 2 cents on the Halo car. I have always assumed that the car was initiated partially for this purpose. Bob Lutz seems to think this way and he was in the initial planning for the Volt. He openly states that the saturn Sky and sister pontiac sports car models were halos. He also seemed to imply that they were upset by the positive feelings generated by the Prius (Even though the other Toyotas are not that spectacular on mpg (my observation).
So, I think the Volt is partially a Halo car and I think it will improve GMs sales at the margin. Some will decide to save 20K and take a related car (like the Cruze). I can see the local chevy dealer now with his 75 foot inflateable gorilla (yes they seem to do that in the MD area) holding a sign saying 230 mpg to draw in the masses.
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:32 pm)There has been a trend of cars coming together in quality so some ratings amplify the differences (making a mountain from a mole hill) to make their point.
Jan 4th, 2010 (7:36 pm)True and you see a lot of “GM is doing better…”, “X brand is improving”, etc. All these subtleties add up to something less than the other guy. It’s better than the ones that say “lousy this” or “poorly executed that” but they are “on par” statements or better yet a certain assumption of quality that they write into Honda and Toyota articles.
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:05 pm)The Volt will be the “Tipping Point” to Peace and Prosperity…
I borrow the phrase “Tipping Point” form another controversy and apply it to the Volt. Now the Volt may or may not prevent the other tipping point. The Volt may or may not prevent another oil war. The Volt may or may not bring prosperity to the land. However the Volt is an indication that these changes are on their way!!!
Yes, the Volt will usher in a new era of Peace and Prosperity.
/am I being overly optimistic?
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:05 pm)Sour grapes?
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:10 pm)Zel,
you and Kevin R are in the market for a Volt so that it is understandable how you would be negative on the aspect of the Volt being a Halo Car.
But there will be many people who will be curious about the technology. Many will just want to test drive one to see what it is all about. These people will come away with a new trust in GM. While in the dealer’s show rooms they will of course see the other vehicles (non-EV) and may every well decide that they want one of the other models offered by GM that they can afford.
If GM plays the new synergy that the Volt creates, they should see a positive Halo effect!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. Once again I did not read any comments following this one, so if I’m repeating what someone else has said before this comment, consider it re-enforcement of this opinion.
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:32 pm)If you are suggesting that the Volt is a harbinger of great things to come, I’d say that I agree. Whether it will have an actual effect on Peace and Prosperity, I don’t know. I *wish* that there was *any* single thing that could be pointed to that would usher those in. Barring the discovery of an unlimited source of free energy, I think transportation solutions will remain a long way down the road (and we’d still have other trivial issues about which we could wage wars). It’d be nice to eliminate diseases (especially cancer – personal bias) too.
/sorry for the buzz-kill. I’ve been in a “life sucks, and then you die” mood all day. I like your optimism!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:34 pm)Sour grapefruits!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:39 pm)I understand that you’re not referring to this, but great efficiency gains can be made by turning waste into miles. Right now a great deal of electrical energy produced during most parts of the day, especially at night, goes to ground and is wasted. There just isn’t enough demand to cover baseline production.
Since the electrical utilities are already producing and transporting the electricity, so there are no additional costs associated with using the electricity, to the extent that this otherwise wasted baseline is used to power a car, the entire amount of electricity used for EVs (which displaces gasoline) drops to the bottom line as social surplus. I can’t actually think of another situation where the social benefits are so large and so clear.
Very cool actually.
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:40 pm)Both the Leaf and the Volt are designed to allow the battery and cab to be climatised during battery pack charging off of the homes electric outlet.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-3
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:50 pm)Something is souring…
Remember the history of Two-Mode?
The same focus on power & image with disregard for price led to struggling for market growth. Total 2008 sales came to 7,000. The total for 2009 looks to be 8,500.
Posts prior to rollout closely resemble those here.
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:53 pm)I’ve had occasion to read the CR auto buying guide a few times; I don’t subscribe, I get it at the library. It does not circulate. About half the time I request it, I’m obliged to wait or accept an older (previous year) edition (which is generally OK for my purposes).
Nothing has a bigger database on auto reliability. I have often heard people quibble about aspects of their statistical model but CR is still the most widely consulted and respected.
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (8:59 pm)Maybe the fact that Lyle and I are both long distance runners makes us more optimistic here. This is not a sprint, it’s a marathon. In other words, we need a vision that lasts years instead of months, and its not going to be easy.
For example, 3 years ago when Lyle started this site, many people were whining that GM could have the Volt out in 9 months if they wanted, and so the whole thing was just a scam. And now, many people say that it won’t make any difference.
But if you take a longer view, then yes, the Volt and other EREVs will make a difference and be profitable.
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:03 pm)Lyle:
I know this is off subject, but…….
One question that I don’t think has come up yet it on this sight is towability. Not the ability of the Volt to tow a trailer, but the ability to tow the Volt behind another vehicle, 4 wheels down, or ‘flat towing’ as it is referred to in the recreational vehicle industry.
Here is my situation. I just bought a large class A (bus style) motorhome. Many people with rigs like this tow a small car behind so they can have a vehicle to drive around once they get to their camp ground or winter retreat. Most cars cannot be towed with 4 wheels down (on the ground rolling) unless they are 4 wheel drive with a neutral position on the transfer case OR a manual transmissin vehicle. The oil pump in the automatic is driven by the engine side (input shaft). Towing such a car, even in neutral will damage if not destroy the transmission. There are several auto transmission cars, many made by GM that CAN be towed 4 wheels down with no damage. Here is a link if anybody is interested. http://www.bretzrv.com/pdfs/2008_DinghyTowguide.pdf
Anyway. IF the Volt can be flat towed 4 wheels down, there is a large population of WEALTHY people who can afford 40 large for a small car. If you can afford $200,000 to $650,000 for a motorhome, you surely can swing another 40 for a dinghy.
Just curious if you know the answer.
-2
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:09 pm)Vlad the Impaler wrote, “I invite you to stop in and drive a Corvette, a Camaro, an Equinox and a Silverado. The “Quality” is there, and it will show through in all of the new GM products. “They get it” now. It’s a shame you will not admit it.”
The evidence that they “get it” will appear in CR in about 5 years. if, in fact, they do “get it,” which I doubt.
I’ve driven the Equinox, the Malibu, the Silverado, the Tahoe hybrid and several other GM products, including the CTS and the new LaCrosse. Shiny new cars are nice. So what?
I’ve got a trio of ten year old Toyotas that don’t rattle and haven’t needed any repairs. Shiny new Toyotas are nice, too, and my experience tells me that they can be trusted. Do you know how many millions of people are out there making car buying decisions who have a history of DexCool or plastic intake manifold-related problems behind them? Whose transmissions grenaded early and/or often?
While CR was evalutaing GM and Toyota and telling people that GM was “not as good,” the marketplace was also evaluating GM and Toyota and the marketplace agreed that GM was “not as good,” which is why GM’s market share kept falling and Toyota’s kept expanding. The marketplace validates CRs conclusions.
By the way, I’ve also driven the ’10 Prius. GM is going to have its hands full beating that.
I also drove the ’09 Camry and the ’09 Malibu. The Camry wins. You want to know what impressed me most? The engine. The 2.4L in the Camry had much more punch than the 2.4L engine in the Malibu.
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:11 pm)Still waiting for your reply to my post @75 above. I’m sure that you just missed it, so I’ll repost it here:
Surely your posts here about the Volt have portrayed it as HUMBLE. If you’d like to reverse your historical stance re the Volt, and acknowledge it’s potential, I’d certainly understand (shocked, but I’d understand that you’d finally accepted that the Volt holds significant strengths – just as the Prius does).
BTW, john, how many folks from this site are regular visitors of your Prius site who consistently post against it’s theme? Maybe more of us should…
/vitriol off
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:17 pm)Yes, many things can be unfair. Today I just want to offer a balance to your unusual buzz-kill. No the Volt will not fix everything. I just hope that it offers a balance to some of the negatives that we talk about.
The Volt is a real functioning mass produced alternative to our addiction to oil. Maybe it is wearing a Halo
-5
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:19 pm)nuclearboy,
Thanks for reminding us of the value of halo cars; Pontiac and Saturn got halo cars and now they are both DEAD.
By the way, what are you reading that suggests Toyota fuel economy isn’t darned good? Check the Corolla, Camry and Yaris on FuelEconomy.gov… those cars all beat their EPA estimates.
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:19 pm)Well, here in Texas, they want to build a MagaHighWay from North Texas down to the Mexican boarder, replete with a railroad down the middle. And it won’t be built by the government. Oh No! It will be a privately owned company who will be reaping profits from the tolls they get to charge and keep. Not to mention all the land they will take as eminent domain, making it extremely difficult for a farmer to get from one side to the other with his farm equipment, and bypassing all the local businesses that now profit from truckers stopping along the way to get a bite to eat, etc.
Hmmm …. Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-2
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:19 pm)Waiting for a post pointing out the definition of humble.
Some aren’t familiar with what the term actually means.
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:34 pm)You are quite wrong. What it shows is a deep and abiding hatred of you, john1701a, personally. Do us all a favor and go away. You are not a friend of the Volt, or of this site.
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:34 pm)Hanging out with Bill Clinton lately?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:36 pm)EXCELLENT POST!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:39 pm)Koz,
Don’t know what part of the country you are from, but when I went to my son’s basketball practice yesterday (in NH in the snow), more than half of the vehicles in the school parking lot were SUV’s or pickups.
I’m sure people will buy standard cars like the Malibu, LaCrosse, etc., but there is definately a market for SUV’s and pickups. Make a plug-in 2-mode version that can average 35+ mpg, and I believe you will see many people go for that option (like the current Equinox).
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:41 pm)Only governments can claim eminent domain, and even then they have to pay for the land (granted, they don’t pay much).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:44 pm)I would disagree 100%. SUVs and trucks might make up 50% of the fleet in the US, and on my 1 mile walk into work I might see a dozen of them. Two summers ago in Europe I saw essentially ZERO. Saw plenty of small cars, plenty of hatches and plenty of wagons, a smattering of vans, an SUV here and there, and ZERO trucks.
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:45 pm)Jackson,
A +1 for telling it like it is.
I’m still not sure why he comes here. Must have an agenda (and a humble one, at that).
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:46 pm)I totally agree with you that GM and all U.S. automakers are still playing ‘catchup’, but I also think that the people need to stop ignoring the ‘good news’ in the press and magazines, etc…
There has been a lot less bashing of American makes lately in the car mags, and when I read the same old “GM sucks” comments, I just know they are speaking more out of old habits rather than fact.
As I recall, Toyota had had the most recalls in the past couple if years. But I could be wrong.
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:46 pm)I’ll settle for a small commuter BEV with 100 mile range.
NEWS FLASH LATE TODAY…….
THINK picks Elkhart Indiana for US Assembly Site / Tech Center
See….
http://www.etruth.com/Know/News/Story.aspx?ID=502204
Woo Hoo !
I live 10 miles from the site.
Sweet.
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:47 pm)You’re excellent at drawing such comments due to your haughty and condescending attitude. I won’t miss you, even a little. You have all the disadvantages of a troll, with none of the advantages; at least the pure trolls are funny.
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:50 pm)So does that make all those who bought a high MPG VW TDI “Smug”. All you show is “Smugness” or prejudice against the Prius or the poster just because it’s a Toyota Prius. Does this site support such prejudice & hate?
Looks like it.
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:58 pm)Tag,
In all fairness to John, he worked on his Prius website before the Volt really existed. It is a passion of his and as all know when one has passion for something it is hard to let go. I would hope that he would keep an open mind about the Volt and discuss the pros and cons of the Volt vs Prius! As I see it he has done this to some extent. Before anyone else Toyota came out with a hybrid that gave buyers great gas mileage, reduced pollution from their vehicles, and at an affordable price. True in Japan they didn’t have any competition and the Japanese government gave hefty rebates. That way Toyota’s sales at less than profitable prices let them establish market share in the U.S. where they could now make a profit.
I see much the same thing happening here in the U.S. for the Volt. Japan didn’t allow their rebates for hybrids to apply to foreign models. In all fairness, I think that our government shouldn’t have allowed the rebates to apply to Toyota hybrids. I don’t normally take that position but over and over I have seen our country negotiate trade agreements only to find foreign countries not abiding by reciprocity. None the less, GM will initially incur a loss on every sale of the Volt. This will end in a few years or perhaps only two, when GM will realize a profit because of much greater sales of the Volt than Toyota experienced over the years of Prius sales.
Lets all give John a chance to change in 2010!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:59 pm)Hi AP,
I’m assuming that you are new here, so welcome to the site. If you stick around for a while, you’ll be able gather a larger sample of the posts here.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:05 pm)A lot of energy is also wasted as well as pollution from ICE cars idling in traffic on the way to/from work. So many people like to compare window sticker numbers (can’t really blame tyem since it is the only baseline to work from), but the reality is that the Volt and other EVs will have significantly greater benefits in this driving condition than those numbers show.
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:05 pm)yes but they can TAKE it for private developers, if the govt decides it is the gvts interest (future taxes and fees)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:08 pm)I drove a ’97 Saturn for 90,000 miles before the trans melted like a fudgecicle in August. It was in the shop at least 5 times for major repairs or recalls, but everything was covered under the warranty.
But I’m not defending or condeming 13 year old GM cars. I work with new and used Chevys and other brands every day. I wouldn’t touch a 4 year old Malibu, but the ’09 and ’10 models are worthy of a look.
I’m just saying that GM “gets it now”, in my opinion. I don’t like everything they’ve done during and since the BK, but I do believe they have awaken from their long slumber, and realized what they need to do to get back on top. And they have, in fact, improved the “quality” of their current models.
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:13 pm)You totally missed my point. I asked him how many of US go to HIS (shrine) site and bad mouth the Prius? I’d wager none. I was attempting to get him to recognize how it might feel if we behaved at his site, the way he behaves here.
I have to give you credit for your perception that john is becoming more open-minded about the Volt. I totally missed that. I guess that he really doesn’t know the definition of “humble”…. (his whine DuJour).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:16 pm)We have a 2004 Ion, just checked the MPG and it got 30mpg in mixed driving with winter tires. Highest we ever got was 38mpg sticker is 24/32. I wish it got better, but compared to my sisters gen2 Prius which is getting 37 in the same conditions,same tires, same driving style we are quite happy having paid $14k for what she paid $23k for.
GM quality is better, public’s perception has not caught up.
Trucks will be GM bread and butter in the future, more efficient better quality trucks/SUVs.
I think dealers will only sell Volts reluctantly, as they will want to keep this Halo effect as long as possible, I can see PLENTY of people who might switch back from Ford or even foreign brands who stop in to look at a volt, and end up driving a Cruise home (Cruise has to deliver to make this happen) etc
Saw this happen at Saturn dealer, I think they even bought the ugliest color yellow they could find, just to show the damn things off on a outdoor turnstile, so people would do a doubletake and pull in to see ‘WTH is that’
Have driven GM all my life, am loyal to the Volt however, and if Toy makes a Volt killer so be it, I am not impressed with 12mi AER though …
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:22 pm)I’m not sure what you are disagreeing with. My comment was a reply to the comment that the Volt will be relegated to a niche vehicle because Americans like trucks. This implied American’s like trucks to the exclusion of cars. If 50% of US fleet is trucks (I believe it is a little lower but close enough), then that leaves 50% as cars or more than 100M in the fleet. Plenty of potential market for the Volt, I’ld say.
On the otherhand:
I agree with this 100%
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:27 pm)I may have mangled the quote as to who said which … and too lazy to scroll back up …
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:30 pm)Good summary.
Let’s just hope that John’s floor mats and gas pedal don’t get in a bind……
“Oh, the humanity!”
+1
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:36 pm)The Chinese have made Buick a top seller. Do they know something smug American Toyota and Lexus buyers don’t?
They also have a sense of loyalty that many Americans don’t have. Before Mao and Communism destroyed China, their Emperor drove nothing but Buicks. The Chinese remember stuff like that even though Communism tried to wipe out any record of their past. They have respect for their ancestors and for their traditions.
Can you imagine if we had that kind of loyalty in this country?
Can you think of any reason why we don’t?
+2
Jan 4th, 2010 (10:46 pm)Ummm…humble…not sure about that one but I feel I’m making progress on “irony”
-4
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:22 pm)LRGProVolt wrote, “None the less, GM will initially incur a loss on every sale of the Volt. This will end in a few years or perhaps only two, when GM will realize a profit because of much greater sales of the Volt than Toyota experienced over the years of Prius sales.”
Ahhh… the classic, “We lose money on every one, but we’ll make that up in volume.”
That plan has surely worked so well for GM in the past decade, I can’t wait to see how it carries them forward with the Volt.
Are you aware that Toyota has sold 1.25 million Priuses, to date? And that the announced “ramp up” of the Volt is to be producing 60K per year 2012 through 2015? And that Toyota’s current annual Prius capacity is about 500,000 vehicles per year? And that they make about $3100 per Prius sold at present?
-4
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:29 pm)Yeah. Because we were driving Buicks all those years and they were letting us down.
Face some simple facts… in 1970, Japanese cars were laughed at and derided as “Jap Crap.” EVERYBODY favored American cars.
And yet… the Japanese have steadily won marketshare over the past 40 years. People who had experience with Detroit’s finest products tried Toyotas and Hondas (and Nissans and Mazdas and Subarus…) and, for some strange reason, never went back. Toyota and Honda have owner loyalty numbers that Detroit can only dream about.
This isn’t because their owners love Japan and all things Japanese, it’s because the cars offered satisfaction and value.
If it was because certain people love Japan and all things Japanese, then Mitsubishi would actually have measurable market share and Isuzu wouldn’t have gone into full retreat for several years… they’d be getting their share of sales, too. Their cars were not as good. Satisfaction wins.
Why didn’t Detroit build cars that satisfied as well? Apparently, they didn’t think they needed to. Their business model was to shove the iron out onto dealer lots and arranged deals and givebacks to sell the cars. It turns out this is not a winning plan.
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:30 pm)I didn’t totally miss the point you made; I just didn’t mention it.
We won’t get John to change by bad mouthing what he has created in his website. I would rather see him join us in dialog. I blogged about his website; even suggested that when he buys a Volt that he does the same for his Volt. Hear he can speak his mind and read the counter arguments made by others and come to a greater understanding as we also can and do.
Lets get to the substance of EV technology. Someone here may propose something brand new, never thought of before (although it is getting harder to forge into new directions at least for me).
It takes a paradigm shift in thinking to make significant change in the direction of society. Just as the discussion of global warming being or not being caused by humans leads to an awareness of planet Earth, its resources, and a need for conservation of all natural resources, so does the discussion here about EV and the EV politics bring about a change about how we think about how we move about planet Earth and its relationship to how we live among and with other people.
We all need to let up a little and not be offended by someones opinion. I sense that you are saying the same but in a different way. Hopefully the Year of the Volt will get us all in a better mode so we can have some stimulating discussions about the direction EV should follow in the future.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-2
Jan 4th, 2010 (11:40 pm)Koz,Don’t know what part of the country you are from, but when I went to my son’s basketball practice yesterday (in NH in the snow), more than half of the vehicles in the school parking lot were SUV’s or pickups. I’m sure people will buy standard cars like the Malibu, LaCrosse, etc., but there is definately a market for SUV’s and pickups. Make a plug-in 2-mode version that can average 35+ mpg, and I believe you will see many people go for that option (like the current Equinox). (Quote)
Sure. Every month, dozens of people are willing to pony up an extra $13K to get a two-mode hybrid SUV. I can only imagine the throngs of people willing to part with an extra $25K… $30K… $35K (who knows how much GM would have to charge) to get a two-mode plugin hybrid SUV.
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Jan 4th, 2010 (11:47 pm)Yes, GM will limit production as much as possible to make the most of the initial demand. They do this for two reasons:
1) The more rare, the more valuable
2) If there is a problem, it’s easier to fix a smaller number.
They have to follow the competition. If there is none, then they can do what they want – see 1) and 2).
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Jan 4th, 2010 (11:47 pm)I think he brings a different perspective to the discussion and therefore makes a contribution. I would actually miss him, so I’m hoping he’s not put off.
He may not be as elegant as you but, hey, who is? LOL
BTW isn’t “deep and abiding hatred” a little strong?
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Jan 5th, 2010 (12:00 am)Toyota lost money on every Prius they sold when they first came out.
In fact, the idea of taking an initial loss until volume costs kick in is standard practice in the car business. In other words, car buyers aren’t used to spending a lot more just because its a new design.
The consumer electronics market is the exact opposite.
Jan 5th, 2010 (12:09 am)to dagwwood 55 @ 166;
Your points are well taken.
But GM and Ford are now producing cars that are as good and even better than anything out there. And so I am saying that they are worth a shot now. Especially since every time we send our money overseas, we are laying off more American workers (and taxpayers). The rest of us pay big time for this.
Also have you seen this article on the “backstory” of how the Japanese do so remarkably well? There is more to it than the quality you’re talking about.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
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Jan 5th, 2010 (12:14 am)Well, dagwood55, in a few years we will be able to compare Toyota’s first few years of Prius sales to that of the Volt. I think that 10,000 for the first year exceeds that of the Prius and 50,000 the year after also exceeds Prius sales in its second year. And from what is shown here on the Want List, Volt sales will far outpace that of the Prius. True it depends upon GM making them in those numbers. Do you really think that a company with new Executives fresh from Apple and AT&T wont be smart enough to meet those needs. Even now as we discuss it all here, they are planning for higher demand than they initially expected. Detroit-Hamtramck plant can build 200,000 vehicles per year. They are now moving to third shifts in some of their plants. If they plan carefully they can increase production beyond 200,000.
If we look at Nissan’s plan for roll out of the Leaf, we see that they are only planning to sell 1,000 vehicles in each of five U.S. cities. GM plans on 10,000 the first year. Nissan is being more conservative than GM because they know that charging infrastructure must be in place in order for there to be a buy market for its BEV. GM with the Volt EREV is not bound by that need and so does not have to be as conservative. They also need to produce a near perfect Volt the first year and must be cautious about any unexpected faults that show up the first year. It appears and this will likely be confirmed this spring when we get more performance test reports that the Volt is working according to engineering specifications. The better the reports are, the more likelihood GM will up the initial planned production to meet thee demand that is materializing now.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jan 5th, 2010 (12:19 am)Nice.
/night all.
Tagamet
Jan 5th, 2010 (12:24 am)Lot’s of different places in the country. Where I am no one has a pick up truck. The only pickups you see driving around are being driven by service people. You don’t see many SUVs either. Those so inclined have moved on to CUVs. Just guessing I’d say it’s 70% sedans.
Having said that, I agree with you that GM has to find a way to make its hybrid technology for its trucks more affordable. Either that or Cap & Trade. On the other hand, I have seen several hybrid Escalades, so there is some market for very expensive hybrid technology. (Maybe the Lexus 250h, which is sort of a very expensive Prius without some of the bells and whistles, proves this?)
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Jan 5th, 2010 (12:36 am)There was a formatting error, there. That’s mostly BillR’s observation. I can’t see many people spending a lot of extra money to save money on gas when they could simply buy a smaller car (even a Traverse would do) and the GMT900 hybrid sales numbers bear this out.
The Lexus 250h is only a bit more than a Lexus IS250. It’s not an extra $13K, like the GMT900 hybrids. Price matters, even for Lexus. Still, it sells just 1500 units/month. Toyota can get away with this because the HS system is fully developed and amortized over tens of thousands of units/month.
Sales of the GMT900 hybrids are under 1K/month, now, and falling the last time I looked. Partly this will be due to dealers unwillingness to stock them. It took the local Chevy dealer over a year to sell his initial three and he hasn’t restocked with any; he just can’t afford that low turnover on a $55K vehicle.
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Jan 5th, 2010 (12:49 am)What new execs from Apple? The most recent outside hire was for CFO – maybe GM will actually be able to get through a year without a restatement of earnings.
The Volt isn’t going to be compared against the 1997 Prius because it’s not 1997 any more. It’s 2010 already and it will be 2011 before any appreciable number of Volts hits the road. Since 1997, gas-electric drivetrains have been old news.
As for building 200K units/month of the Volt… none of that is in any kind of evidence. Even if GM manages that, it will still be 300K behind Prius capacity.
And don’t forget… it’s missing a seat. Even if it has a bigger battery, the car still has to compete on its merits as a car. This design has a serious shortcoming as a car; all the other compacts seat 5. Add in the mediocre long-range fuel economy and you have a vehicle with problematic prospects.
By the way, the average price people on the wait list are willing to pay is actually significantly less than the projected price of the Volt (a year ago it was reported at $30K or so). Exactly how many sales the wait list may represent is hard to say but it certainly isn’t 100% of the current length of the list. While that list grew from 0 to 50K or so, over 250K people put down real money and drove away in a Prius and Toyota made a net profit of perhaps $900 million on those transactions.
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Jan 5th, 2010 (12:57 am)Toyota was making money; they could afford to lose money investing in developing a market they expected to be profitable in the future.
I should add, “even if true,” as there are no reliable reports as to how much money Toyota might have lost on each vehicle. Toyota is better at GM than making money on low volume and low-priced cars.
GM, on the other hand, went bankrupt last year and, if they’re making any money today – or even have positive cash flow – they’re being curiously silent about how swell things are going; they didn’t release any kind of real income statement at the end of Q3.
You might also consider the Kappa program (Sky, Solstice) at GM for some guidance as to how GM’s going to do with the Volt. It was a program of similar magnitude, in terms of monthly volume, as the Volt. Styling aside, it was a perfeclty conventional small car with an off-the-rack engine in most units and reports are that GM lost $10K per vehicle. I’d bet a quarter it had a part count lower than a Cobalt sedan.
Jan 5th, 2010 (3:20 am)Man! What is with these Volt haters it’s like if they have no living soul in them?
Jan 5th, 2010 (3:21 am)In November, if the cost of gas is way low, it will be a hell no instead of a halo.
I don’t trust the fuel industry when it comes to manipulating prices to affect consumer demand for EVs.
Jan 5th, 2010 (3:31 am)Also I do hope GM does succeed and does not fail like when it came to the EV1 let’s just hope that the electric revolution becomes reality and get these wheels on the road! Plus I do hope electric cars aren’t just in California when it comes to later years like 2013 or 2014? Lets just hope that all of America is electrified in the future period!
Jan 5th, 2010 (6:02 am)hi Sean 181 … Let’s be honest. GM has a reputation for being 12 to 24 months late with release and delivery of new technology. Former CEO Fritz Henderson acknowledged this saying that his new GM would “listen and act quickly”. Seemed like a breath of fresh air for a struggling mega company.
The new CEO states that GM will “need to have an electric car”. The director of marketing doesn’t seem to believe 9000 or 10000 Volt is a small number for first year release.
These are the facts. This mindset would be fine if we lived in a vacuum. But, three Asian manufacturers are aggressively preparing for a barrage of electric car releases. It’s a sure bet they are working as hard as they can to stay on top of an awakening GM.
NGMCO may make the better car. And GM may have the best technology. Will their heel dragging attitude cost them once again? We don’t need to pay a psychic to know the answer to this question.
=D~
Jan 5th, 2010 (6:37 am)Here are two questions…
How do you keep a plug in Prius out of a garage? Fill the space with a Volt.
How do you get a plug in Prius out of a garage after it’s parked and plugged in? Run dozens of Howie Long commercials advertising how good the soon to be released Volt will be.
=D~
Jan 5th, 2010 (6:42 am)Gm is upping there capacity for the volt to over 200,000 plus as we speak. Second generation two-mode hybrid system is smaller, cheaper, and lighter and will be here very soon.
Jan 5th, 2010 (7:00 am)Why are you a a gm-volt site. We all know there are Toyota/Honda Lovers and GM haters out there. We come here to celebrate a great American car and discuss it. You are like the atheist showing up at bible study. You really should consider finding somewhere else to hang out.
Jan 5th, 2010 (7:04 am)I see them as planting the E-REV flag with the Volt. Once you design and build anything, you have a certain set of experience and the next version can be greatly improved. I think the Volt is great but I anticapate Volt 2.0 being much greater. There will be plenty of things to optimize for Volt 2.0 and I would expect higher production of a cheaper and more capable car in the near future. The current Volt is just getting the ball rolling.
Jan 5th, 2010 (7:20 am)Everyone can agree with this. But will the world be willing to pass on the 4 to 6 other available EV’s in the meantime?
Most people who post on GM Volt dot com like electric cars. More than half currently own makes other than GM. Will these people test drive competitors EV as soon as they are available? 90% will. Of the 90%, how many will be impressed enough to buy? Will a competitor offer a sweeter deal with better financing to a customer that mentions the Volt? History says they will. The battle lines are being drawn here in 2010.
=D~
Jan 5th, 2010 (8:08 am)That is EXACTLY how the Volt plant in Hamtramck got built! The government condemned that last two dozen property owners land because they were holding out for big bucks. They overplayed their hands. But eminent domain was definitely involved.
Jan 6th, 2010 (12:09 am)Can we just ban John 1701-A from the Internet, he’s like the little super nerd kid who everyone made fun of (even the other nerds) and now he thinks he’s “made it” and wants to rub it in to everyone.
Dude needs to grow up and get a life, I just browsed his site for kicks and I was shocked at how pathetic he is. What I am not shocked about is his volt hatred, which began on GMI arguing all the time with GoBlue.