We are well aware GM is developing and launching the Chevy Volt.
They also possess non-plugin hybrid technology. The mild hybrid version of the Malibu didn’t fare too well as it added little fuel efficiency, and was discontinued. A next -generation version of this technology using lithium-ion batteries is set to appear next year likely in the new Buick Regal.
The automaker also has 2-mode hybrid technology which is used in the large trucks such as the Chevy Tahoe, GMC Yukon, and Cadillac Escalade. These are selling at low volume.
Back in July, I had asked then Chevrolet Chief Ed Peper if GM was also developing its own non-plugin strong hybrid sedan, and he confirmed it.
“What we are trying to work towards is ‘Yes,’ we will have other hybrid vehicles (besides the Volt) but we are trying to work towards a dedicated hybrid,” said Peper at the time. “We think that’s probably a better way for us to go longer term.”
According to a new report in Business week, GM has just shut down this program:
General Motors, for one, is reviewing its entire hybrid strategy. In late November, GM shelved plans for a 53-mpg Prius fighter for its bread-and-butter Chevrolet brand. GM product planners are starting to think they would be better off focusing on next-generation plug-in hybrids and electric cars such as the Chevrolet Volt, which is due next year. Even if those vehicles can’t beat Toyota’s Prius in the short term, they earn GM green-tech bragging rights. Given Honda’s experience, GM may have the right idea.
This article’s emphasis was on Honda’s trouble with its 41 MPG Insight launched to fight the Prius, but which has wound up being outsold by the Toyota 6 to 1.
Honda tried to price the Insight below the 50 MPG Prius as a value proposition, calling it “the hybrid for everyone,” but US sales in 2009 have only been about 20,000, far less than the 100,000 units initially projected. Honda has found out that hybrid buyers are actually more affluent and are looking for a roomier, sportier, comfortable and more powerful car, which the Prius is, and at a base price that is a mere $700 more than a fully loaded Insight.
Maybe as Businessweek notes “Given Honda’s experience, GM may have the right idea.”
Do you agree?
Source (Business Week)
This entry was posted on Friday, December 18th, 2009 at 7:18 am and is filed under Hybrid. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:22 am)Shame.. but it still has to be shown that GM can make money on small cars, its also very hard to wrest the green crown from Toyota. Look at all the people on this forum hollering for a $20k Volt. For $20k you get a Cruze. A strong BAS + on the Equinox could be an interesting proposition and perhaps a better investment for GM.
-9
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:22 am)Is it me or does this thing look like a Prius?
+26
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:24 am)I already own a Prius and I’m waiting to trade it in for a Volt. When you are planning to leapfrog the current hybrid market why waste money going back to fight a fair fight?
+18
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:25 am)It’s even got a toyota badge! talk about stealing the design
+6
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:29 am)Good business decision for GM. Focus on cars like Volt and other plug-in like Converj.
+8
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:39 am)What Business Week is saying is that if you are trying to be Prius-like you better be better than the Prius. The Volt is significantly different than the Prius and carving out a new market. Toyota may choose to emulate the Volt, but once the Volt has a territory established then Toyota will have to do better than the Volt. If GM does try to do something similar to the Prius it seems like they need to differentiate their product and then it has to in some way be better.
+5
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:51 am)I wonder why GM can’t simply put out a 42 mpg Malibu Hybrid. Ford can do it with the Fusion. Why can’t GM do this too?
The Malibu is nicer (IMHO) inside and outside than the Prius and the difference between 40+ and 50 could be overlooked because of the size difference.
+6
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:57 am)As for the Malibu at least they need to provide a direct injection with turbo engine, like the Cruze, which should improve the MPG. The Malibu is a great car just need update the engine efficiency.
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:57 am)People often throw logic out the window when they buy a car. They want to be seen in a good looking car, or a car that makes them look smart. who knows. Volt should have 20 cup holders.
Dec 18th, 2009 (8:01 am)Why can’t GM compete with the Prius and Ford can? Because the HSD design used by Ford and Toyota outclasses alternatives like Honda’s design or the two-mode. We do not know (or at least I do not know) whether the Voltec design will prove more efficient than the HSD in the real world. But that is the claim and time will tell.
+5
Dec 18th, 2009 (8:12 am)Clearly it’s best to increasingly focus as much toward entirely new plug-in products as is possible as soon as possible. GM has been seeing that the public “gets it” with Voltec advantages, and that Voltec is not some sort of “flash in the pan” that marketers are needed to promote. Voltec is self-promotional from all it’s engineering being light years ahead of everything else. GM has gone for the platinum.
(Seriously, it would not surprise me at all for there to be awarded a Nobel Peace prize somehow in the engineering departments’ work thats related to Voltec, which is above ***all*** politics).
(off to work, running late) Have a great day everyone!!!
+8
Dec 18th, 2009 (8:12 am)My first impression of this headline was negative. Although, when I stopped to think about it, and not being able to see the expanse of products GM is working on now beyond the Volt, it could very well be a better idea to just push harder towards all-Voltec platforms for the fuel efficiency offerings. They have a first gen. Volt already engineered, and are well under way with second gen. from what we hear, so it stands to reason that they should probably stick with it even though it will be expensive in the early years.
Go Voltec for the future GM!
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (8:13 am)That’s too bad in my book. I was looking forward to what GM would come up with for a dedicated hybrid. Maybe they are looking OK on the CAFE. With the Cruze, the Beat/spark, new Regal, and the Volt, their fleet MPG #’s may be good enough. And/or it just doesn’t make business sense at this time.
+8
Dec 18th, 2009 (8:30 am)I’ll say this again and will continue saying it until it appears in a GM vehicle. If it doesn’t have a plug, don’t bother making it. NPNS! Toyota knows this and that’s why the Prius is getting a plug.
NPNS!
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (8:35 am)No great loss! Go Volt.
+14
Dec 18th, 2009 (8:40 am)This is good news. GM should never try to follow Toyota. They should lead. And the Volt will eventually be the gold standard in the car business.
Years from now we will all look back on the courage GM had to develop the Voltec technology and we will be proud.
+9
Dec 18th, 2009 (8:47 am)I feel GM is making the right decision. Toyota owns the “strong hybrid” market and no one has been able to compete with the Prius. GM is correct in their decision; the Volt will leap-frog the Prius and will change what the world traditionally think of as a hybrid vehicle. Any hybrid where the gasoline engine drives the wheels will be obsolete.
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (9:17 am)This is likely a smart move for GM.
The Saturn Vue 2-mode had and average fuel economy of 30 mpg with a V6 engine.
Use the 1.4L turbo in the smaller Cruze, and you probably can get the 53 mpg that is mentioned. However, the 2-mode is expensive, and the question always becomes what is the value? If a conventional Cruze with the new BAS+ mild hybrid can get 40 mpg average and cost ~ $20k with many features and amentities, will many customers spend an additional $6k or $8k to get 53 mpg? Then you have the issue of competing with similar vehicles.
I expect GM to offer several tiers of vehicle pricing and efficiency. For those on a strict budget, you can get the Cruze (~35 mpg ave.), or the Cruze with BAS+ (~40 mpg ave).
For the middle range car buyer, you can likely get an ICE driven LaCrosse (25 mpg ave) or get it with 2-mode and plug-in, but it will be pricy, $40 to $50K. The good part is 40+ mpg average in a large, luxurious vehicle.
The next step is Voltec, and this will be the expensive line, with the Volt, Converj, and perhaps an Orlando and small truck. These will be the economy leaders in segment with the plug-in feature.
+4
Dec 18th, 2009 (9:24 am)I don’t think Ford is competing with Toyota. I haven’t seen many hybrid Fords on the road. In fact I’ve seen more hybrid GM vehicles than Fords. Does anyone have the sales figures for Ford’s hybrid?
There also was a big difference between the Prius and Malibu. The Prius was a brand new car. The Malibu, though new power design was and still is an old car. Yes the new design is great and the car itself is really nice (a fellow employee owns one and it’s a very nice car), but it still was not “new” in the same way that the Prius was. Chevy needed to bring out a new car with a new name for a hybrid, not retrofit. That hasn’t worked out well for their trucks nor for their cars. They needed to bring out a new truck or SUV that was advertised as a hybrid. That would have sold much better and also why the Volt will fly off the dealer lots. The Volt is new and exciting, not some poor upgrade.
Any hybrid (new or upgrade) must also offer a significant increase in fuel economy. The Malibu and first gen trucks and SUV’s didn’t do this. The second gen aren’t much better.
So what’s a consumer to do? Wait for the Volt.
+16
Dec 18th, 2009 (9:30 am)Yes. Don’t look back because you would have to beat the 3rd generation Prius with a 1st generation model. Not going to happen.
Additionally, Toyota can lower the price and take a huge hit to make sure GM does not take away their non-plug-in hybrid crown.
Kill all weak and non-plug-in projects today (if not already done). It’s a sunk cost. Divert all engineers to advanced Voltec or other electrification transportation projects.
This is not the time for baby steps. The competition is already 3 generations old. You must leapfrog and now is a rare moment in history where this is possible. Just do it (only not like Tiger did).
+2
Dec 18th, 2009 (9:32 am)The Volt is a Prius beater and with the plug in prius coming out GM would need to have a plug in hybrid as well not just a 50+ mpg car. 2nd and 3rd gen Voltech is the way to go and putting Voltech into vans and small SUV’s should be around the corner.
-2
Dec 18th, 2009 (9:32 am)I think this is a mistake. To build a dedicated hybrid would keep GM in a position to offer a vehicle to a greater market. The Volt will sell for somewhere in the mid 30′s (after rebates). A dedicated hybrid would sell for $7-10K less. This opens the market up to people who will not be able to afford the Volt. Yes the Volts technology will get cheaper in the long run but the short run will belong to the hybrid. The death of the ICE is still a good one and possible two decades away. That is a lot of market share to surrender.
+7
Dec 18th, 2009 (9:45 am)Certainly, GM knows that early adopters are affluent and are willing / able to pay more, but as Tesla Motors and Fisker Automotive have shown, those affluent buyers want more than just some new tech under the hood – they also want the bells and whistles for their buck.
I think Tesla and Fisker have THE cars that early adopters really want, but not all early adopters can afford them, so the Volt will satisfy the rest.
I do agree that ALL GM hybrids should come with a plug. GM can have parallel or series hybrid architecture, but without a plug, these vehicles lose significant benefits to consumers, industry and our country’s strategic energy position in the world.
+6
Dec 18th, 2009 (9:51 am)GM has realized that Voltek truly is the new way.
2010 is the year when smooth running electric drive vehicles, from several manufacturers, finally cruise the highways. This paradigm shift will be as big a leap as CD technology replacing the audio cassette.
The dominant market for audio cassettes has disappeared in just 15 years. And now the 32GB postage stamp mini SD card is replacing the paperback sized PC hard drive. Who needs a 4″ x 5.8″ hard drive? Just five years ago these sold for over $200 each.
Battery technology is doubling each three years. It’s safe to say that the car buyer will soon see a 200 lb 40 mile range battery. This will allow for ample storage space in electric vehicles. And smaller size sports cars to house the smaller cells. And front/rear combo drive trucks for recreation, snow country, and off road use.
=D~
+10
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:01 am)OK,
The numbers can be deceiving.
You improve the economy of a truck from 15 to 20 mpg and you have a ~33% improvement, that is HUGE.
Honestly, once you start getting into efficencies 40 mpg+ and it just doesn’t make any huge difference in real world fuel usage.
The car getting 40 mpg uses an eye dropper of gas and the 58 mpg car uses 2/3 of an eye dropper…
The real savings are with the trucks.
I still say make ALL the light GM trucks hybrid and hammer the cost down on the 2 mode drive so the trucks price similar to where they are now.
+4
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:02 am)Whats a CD?
+2
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:07 am)I agree going from 42mpg to 46mpg is pretty insignificant. I think if anything, its more for bragging rights of the companies. However, if everyone keeps competing to hold that #1 spot, the efficiencies will keep getting better.
I think w/cars like the Volt and plug in Prius (and all the new electrics), a new type of ruler will have to be used, otherwise we end up w/things like 230mpg.
Regarding trucks.. maybe we need to have a competition for most fuel efficient truck. I know those things dont usually go together, but that would be a great way to really improve the gas-guzzlers.
+4
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:08 am)I’d rather see and expansion of Voltechnology across a broader range of Chevrolet and even Buick and Cadillac models. That is ultimately the way to go. If 2nd generation Volt can improve on price and electric only range performance that will always be better than anything Prius can do. I am hoping GM can offer optional long range versions of voltechnology cars, for example if the new converge becaus of its higher price point could ofer a 50 or 60 mile range version over the base 40 electric only range. There it seems to me that this could be done by increasing the size of the battery by 5-10%.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:08 am)Friday December 18, 2009, 7:59 am EST
Oil rises to near $74 as traders eye OPEC, demand
Oil rises above $73 in Europe PM trade on cold weather in US, hope of rising crude demand
By early afternoon in Europe, benchmark crude for January delivery was up $1.22 to $73.87 in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange. On Wednesday, the contract fell 1 cent to settle at $72.65.
Investors will be watching closely the output policy decided at the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries’ meeting Tuesday in Luanda, Angola. Leaders of the 12-member cartel have said they would like the price of oil above $70 a barrel.
=D~
+2
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:09 am)I think they would be better off adding a plug to the 2 mode trucks. If you could get just 10 miles all electric on an suv or PU it would save more oil then anything.
Also how about a Van and mid sized trucks. I would think local delivery trucks could save the extra cost back very quickly. Think UPS or Fedex they start and stop at low speed all day. I would think a Hybrid would have a very short pay back.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:12 am)I agree that many hybrid buyers are more interested in significantly better efficiency than price. (They already know they’re paying a premium to get a hybrid, why get one that isn’t significantly more efficient. Value isn’t unimportant, but I believe that while gas price are under $3/gal, “fuel economy” is the wrong objective. “fuel efficiency” is the objective and a less price conscious buyer is the customer.)
+2
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:13 am)Hi Todd @ 19,
What I was trying to say is Ford has a strong hybrid, and its performance is superior to the Camry Hybrid (41/36 vice 34/33). Your point, of course, is also completely correct, the Fusion Hybrid sales are less than 15% of the Prius sales.
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:15 am)I am seriously looking at getting a Cruze next year. The Volt won’t be in Ohio for some time and when it does show up the price will have to come down before I buy one. $25k is my limit.
+11
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:19 am)I think that cancelling this car has everything to do with dollars and nothing to do with losing any of the green halo.
GM can not compete with Toyota on hybrids, so why spend all that money and lose again? It gains them nothing, and costs them a lot with all the bad press reports.
They finally realize they have a winner with the Voltec design, so ther should move ahead and own this new market segment. As soon as possible, they should have a Voltec model in all four divisions. If they can get the battery costs under control, they should then introduce a Chevy brand BEV with a cost in the low to mid $20K range.
It all depends upon how well those first 10K Volts perform. If they work as promised, GM is golden and ready to take on the competition. If they don’t, it will be very bad times for GM.
So let’s get it right!!!!!
We are with you on this one GM.
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:19 am)kdawg
“Whats a CD?”
Its like an LP (album), but smaller and silver instead of black…
help?
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:22 am)I don’t have them offhand but basically you have the Prius and then everything else. Of the everything else, the hybrid Camry comes in second, outselling the hybrid Fusion by a modest number. The Fusion is third.
One issue you bring up when saying that “I haven’t seen may hybrid Fords on the road” is that it’s difficult to tell the difference between the hybrid and non-hybrid versions of a vehicle when the body style is identical.
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:25 am)Another problem of GM not developing a strong dedicated hybrid is that is one less efficient car option for people who do not have plugs available to them. Voltec is great, but if you don’t have a place to plugin, looks like you have to buy a Ford Focus/Fusion Hybrid or Prius, if you want to buy a green car.
-1
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:26 am)Yeah, i think i’ve heard of those.
(waiting for the day physical media becomes obsolete)
+7
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:36 am)This was a hard but ultimately a good decision. GM is a generation behind in parallel hybrid technology. If it got into the business with the Malibu it would have the ultimate “me too” vehicle, far behind not only the Prius, which is in a class by itself, but also the hybrid Camry and the hybrid Fusion. We have something of a winner take all game in technology, and being a weak fourth or fifth entry lets you pick up the crumbs and not much more.
On so many fronts the Volt beats the Prius, even the plug-in Prius, hands down. If GM can bring the cost of the Gen II Volt down, then it should capture the vast majority of the green market.
The one thing I’ll say is that this is not a traditional GM decision. Traditionally GM wanted to compete everywhere. But the reality is that it can no longer fight every battle. The Volt represents such great technology, and GM is so far ahead with it, that it needs to concentrate its resources on what seems to be a likely winner and not be distracted by competing for fourth or fifth prize in the parallel hybrid sedan space.
Note that Nissan has made the same decision, though they’ve gone the BEV route rather than the EREV route, probably because they don’t have the technology to compete effectively. I think their decision is right as well. What we may end up with is three leaders in three categories — Toyota in parallel hybrids; GM is EREV; and Nissan in BEVs. Doubtless Toyota will sell more vehicles in the short run but in the longer run GM has the winner.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:39 am)Bragging rights are all well and good but the real world savings are in the automotive infrastructure machines. Your house was built with materials brought to site in pickup trucks and vans.
On this site there is a definate focus on 2 million miles per gallon and that is all well and good, but the fact is that your marble countertop isn’t going to get to you in any micro electric car.
Making the light truck fleet all hybrid would certainly go a long way toward improving the efficency numbers in a realistic and effective fashion.
/Starcast @ 30… I include vans in the light truck category and have no problem with adding a plug. The reason I am concentrating on the light category is that the development is already done, it’s not much more than a matter of installing a different transmission on the assembly line.
-10
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:40 am)(click to show comment)
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:40 am)I have the 2010 Fusion Hybrid… can easily achieve 50 + MPG (Canadian) in the warmer weather.. Right now we have been having -25C and colder for the past week and even with all the warming up and standstill traffic… I am still getting 38 MPG (Canadian)
It would be really tough for GM to come up with something quickly to beat the 2010 Car of the year..
-9
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:41 am)From the article: “Even if those vehicles can’t beat Toyota’s Prius in the short term, they earn GM green-tech bragging rights.”
This is why GM’s entire management structure MUST GO.
GM management lives in a dream world of their own devising. They built several vehicles, with giant HYBRID stickers on the side for the “green-tech bragging rights” and no one bought them.
The Prius sells because it is reasonably priced and delivers the goods. It has good seating capacity, it is quiet, it has a good-size cargo space, the interior is nice and it gets phenomenal fuel economy. It doesn’t hurt that it’s reliable. Ford’s Fusion is making sales for the same reasons.
What’s GM doing? Pressing ahead with unaffordable Volts and unmarketable hybrid trucks.
There is no money in “green tech bragging rights,” there is only money in making cars that people can afford with features that people – lots of people – want.
It’s absolutely amazing that GM can actually go bankrupt and still not get a clue.
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:47 am)Chevy already has 7 cars, 2 crossovers and 2 large SUVs. When the VOLT arrives, that makes it 13 not including Silverado trucks.
I thought part of GM’s problem was too many brands and too many models. Chevy needs just 5 high-quality cars:
Corvette
Camaro
VOLT
Cruze
Beat
The others should go to Buick or GMC. With one exception…
If they replace the Malibu with a new version of the “Nomad” or “El Camino” and it was Voltec-based, I would love to see that.
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:49 am)I’m still sipping my coffee so my math is off. That should have been 12…. I think.
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:52 am)Yes, I agree with this. I can also see that there might be enough market for a parallel hybrid to cut into what Toyota has defined as their turf. But before GM spends precious resources on pure BEV’s or parallel hybrids let’s make sure that the Volt foundation is well laid. And based on the dance thing there can be unintended consequences to threaten progress. Also, as someone recently pointed out, GM has a track record of not making much profit on small vehicles, so that is another issue to deal with.
+7
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:54 am)I have a Nissan Altima Hybrid now. It is big enough for the family and fun to Drive. It will not be traded in on a Chevy Hybrid. BUT, give me a Volt and it will be gone in a Flash. GM is right Hybrids are great till the Volt comes out and then they are sooooooo Yesterday.
GO VOLT GO
NPNS
+4
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:57 am)This statement hit me between the eyes. If you look at the popularity of the Ford F150 as well as GMC trucks, you begin to realize the huge market for electrification of light trucks. I have mentioned Raser Technology in previous posts here on GM-Volt.com. They have been working on electrification of trucks and SUVs. The electric Hummer they built in conjunction with GM gets 40 miles AER and 100 mpg!(Not sure under what kind of driving they get that for the Hummer) They have a tried and true drivetrain for light trucks that can be modified for SUVs. Their Symetron AC induction motor is cheaper than permanent magnet motors. GM would be wise in partnering with them to put plug-in ERETs and ERESUVs on the market. It would be All American technology. If someone like GM doesn’t take the opportunity to lock up Raser’s technology someone in China or Japan will.
Voltec technology is fine for passenger vehicles and should be used for new models of the various GM labels such as is planed with Converj. GM should not waste its time and money on research for hybred designs like the Prius. Problems with the Prius are beginning to show up as they get around 50,000 miles. I believe that the reason is in the HSD design. It is complex and more prone to failure than the design concepts of the Volt.
Voltec is KISS as far as the parts lineup. Only the software is complex, IMHO. GM has done the research and engineering to perfect the Voltec drive train and should now expand its use to other models and brands.
A new drive train is necessary for light trucks and SUVs because of their weight. The electrified Hummer project is an example of the increase in mpg that can be realized for trucks and SUVs: THAT IS WHERE GM SHOULD GO!!!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. The future of the Volt and all EREVs like it will be to evolve into BEVs through battery advancement.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:02 am)nah.. 2-Mode is too expensive and complicated.. I say use cheap V8s and V6 in the pickups and large vans/SUVs, with cylinder bank deactivation. BAS+ and atkinson cycle (or whatever GM calls it) in those large engines will give you high fuel mileage and modest cost increases of about $2k.
They need to keep the larger V engines since the atkinson cycle will eat 25% of the horsepower.. and you gotta have it for towing. Atkinson cycle and V bank deactivation should be “free” if the engines have variable valve control. Add turbos and DI for higher end models.
Pickups are critical for both GM and Ford, they need to position themselves for extreme fuel cost increases.
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:03 am)You forgot the Orlando
+4
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:04 am)Apparently you missed it, but this is happening, and to some extent has already happened.
+2
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:09 am)GM could start by making the light truck fleet lighter and more aerodynamic, which would do as much or more for less money than a fancy hybrid system. If necessary the hybrid power train could be added for more savings. IOW maybe it’s a better to close the windows rather than buy a bigger heater.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:13 am)No surprises here to many of us. We expected the Prius to eat the new Insight’s lunch and it has. Vehicles have to have some appeal to draw in buyers from the many competitive models out there. The Prius’ appeal is efficiency. It has been the most efficient gasoline burning car in the US market for some time. It also offers reasonable space, power, and amenities but the only truely “drawing” feature is efficiency. The Insight comes up short on every account except price but people weren’t buying the Prius on price anyway. Price buyers were buying Yarises, Corollas, Fits, etc. The Volt will beat the Prius’ efficiency significantly and be an improvement in power, luxury, and style (IMO). So, for those “efficiency” buyers that can afford the Volt’s price and can live with only 4 seats and have access to charging, there won’t be competition from the Prius or the Insight or the Fusion.
GM just needs to identify and understand their target markets and the competition. Right now there are gaping wide high efficiency openings for an American sized family mover (minivan or 3-row seat small CUV) and small pickup.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:14 am)Does Ford use HSD. I thought I read a while back that Toyota took them to court over the hybrid Ford Escape and Ford showed that they seperately developed their own technology??
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:15 am)This is the right decision for GM. It also underscores how much GM is committed to the Volt technology.
Go Volt
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:24 am)For a company that comes from a position of being late to the party, I’m entirely in agreement with your point that whatever they bring to the market needs to be better than the Prius. Mild hybrids will get mild response from the market. Honda’s Insight came into the market with lower numbers than the Prius, and looks like a Pontiac Aztec from the rear. I’m afraid Nissan will find themselves unable to achieve liftoff with the LEAF because, until range anxiety and slow recharging time are fixed, BEVs just aren’t ready for the mass market.
However when you are the established leader, the rules are a little different IMO. As long as they don’t sit on their hands and do nothing, they can afford to get away with a more conservative response….. I think only Toyota could get away with countering the Volt with a 14.5 mile range plug-in hybrid, which very possibly could put a substantial dent into Volt sales.
In a sense, that car will allow Toyota to argue that they are still the leader in hybrid/electric technology even though its 134 mpg spec is less than the Volt’s 230mpg claim. But if Toyota prices it right…… I’m worried that the market for the Volt will shrink.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:27 am)Completly agree. Trucks for GM should be the focus of hybrids and Voltec for the remaining vehicles.
Good move by GM
-6
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:28 am)They’re replacing lifers with other lifers.
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:32 am)Not all of us… I was surprised that the Insight wasn’t more competitive. I wasn’t sure they’d get the same fuel economy as the Prius but I expected them to be close and I expected the overall value to make it attractive. I am still hoping their refresh helps it along.
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:32 am)Why are we taking about sales of the Fusion being less than the Prius. The Ford Fusion competes with the Toyota Camry; their both mid size vehicles, not so the Prius. We should have the figures on how the Fusion holds up to the Camry.
The Volt is the only vehicle that will compete with the Prius. Ford doesn’t have a hybrid in the same class: does it?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:37 am)Do you have a link or more detail on this for us? It is much faster than what I have understood before, which was maybe 10% a year.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:39 am)I think it was a good decision. Why continue to get to hybrid status when the up an coming plugin is the next step.
Just build the Volt already!
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:42 am)“Honda Settles Class-Action Lawsuit on Civic Hybrid”"
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/091216-Honda-Settles-Class-Action-Lawsuit-on-Civic-Hybrid/
This will hurt Honda sales. But what I hate is the ONLY winner is the friggin attorney. If you read it closely, the EPA rated it but the buyers sued Honda? WTF?
-1
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:43 am)Ford claims that their technology is different although it is very similar. Read this link, Car & Diver “2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid – Short Take Road Test”:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/08q4/2010_ford_fusion_hybrid-short_take_road_test
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:52 am)On a related topic:
I just heard on the news this morning that President Obama, while at the “Global Climate Change Summit” talks, is planning to commit $100 BILLION PER YEAR to pay to “emerging economies” (read 3rd world goat herders) to “deal with the effects of global climate change” (read ‘payoff’ to shut the hell up) instead of actually DOING ANYTHING about the causes of “global climate change”.
Now, I’m no genius as you guys already know, but let’s just say you take 2 Billion to build a few Voltec factories in the U.S. (to keep jobs here) and then take the remaining 98 Billion to pay for building cars.
$98,000,000,000.00 / $40,000.00 = 2,450,000 VOLTs PER YEAR
which the government could dish out to TAX PAYING AMERICANS by a lottery – - – say by VALID Social Security numbers. (Illegal Immigrants need not apply.)
I don’t know how many American-made autos are on the road right now, but it seems to me (and my limited math skills) that in just 4 years we could put an end to a significant cause of “climate change”.
On a side note, I suppose some of that money could go to solving the problem of “cow farts” – - – which is supposed to be the other main cause of greenhouse gases. A serious problem indeed !!!
I am willing to give up driving a car that runs on gasoline, but damned if I will give up a good double-cheeseburger!!!
Obama… Are you listening?
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:53 am)hi ProVolt, I am going on personal experience. No link that I know of.
It’s possible that battery technology will advance faster than this in the future. The three year double rate is what I have seen in the last ten years. The biggest difference being in battery management. Most new cells are now built “smart” to protect themselves from over and under charging. Just three years ago one had to use a timer to protect the cells.
Do a net search on battery manufacturers. Pure competition is driving efficiency improvement. The winner being the electric automotive industry.
=D~
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:55 am)It is this archaic technology where this big disc holds only one album of music as opposed to your entire music collection in a little mp3 player
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:55 am)Their tech was soo dang close, Ford “Licensed” the HSD from Toy just to eliminate the chances of a law suit.
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:57 am)“NASIRIYAH, Iraq (AFP) – Iranian forces took control of a southern Iraqi oil well on a disputed section of the border on Friday, US and Iraqi officials told AFP.”
-12
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:59 am)(click to show comment)
-12
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:03 pm)(click to show comment)
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:04 pm)I agree with what your saying. But the work has been done for mid size trucks also. They are building Hybrid bus now with short time frame to save back cost the same could be used in mid-size delivery trucks like UPS and Fedex and others.
+2
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:07 pm)No, because HSD is Toyota’s trademark.
Ford uses the exact same power split planetary design that Toyota does.
The power split planetary was patented in 1972 by TRW. Another patent the same year covered the two mode hybrid.
What Toyota did claim was violations on a bunch of patents on implementing the basic design. Ford countered with a slew of Ford patents that they claim Toyota is violating so the whole thing was dropped.
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:10 pm)Not that they are being public about. Who knows what any of the carmakers are doing behind the scenes. It would sure make me happy if they were.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:10 pm)You could probably electrify all the highways in the US.. wireless power transfer to short range BEV vehicles plus build a couple of nukes to feed it. Would create jobs for lots of people also, real jobs, not community organizer type “jobs”.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:11 pm)Haven’t read all the replies (short on time), so if someone else has said this I apologize to him or her.
I don’t think there is any problem with offering a dedicated hybrid provided it is an offshoot of Voltec, and not an in-house competitor to it.
In order to improve CS mode efficiency, a battery or ultracapacitor needs to be developed which can withstand several orders of magnitude greater numbers of charge/discharge cycles. This battery does not need to be as large as the plugin AER battery. It’s sole purpose would be to buffer a narrow power range, high efficiency engine output to all vehicle driving requirements. It would take over the job of regeneration from the plug-in AER battery pack, and would recharge at times low driving demand for later use at higher driving demand (unlike the current Gen I design).
Once this is done, a Volt would carry both the small high performance buffer battery and a larger, AER plug in pack. This would result in much better driving performance as well as increased efficiency in charge sustaining mode.
With me so far?
A much cheaper Voltec derived car could be offered only with the small high performance battery, to operate solely as the Volt would in CS mode. With one new part, GM could now provide for a whole range of new vehicles. Not just a better Volt, but a smaller AER Volt and non-plug-in Volt at progressively lower prices to serve a whole range of consumers. (The small high performance battery common to all models takes care of performance issues, remember; so performance wouldn’t become a casualty of a smaller AER pack in the mid-cost Volt).
Perhaps most significantly, a base model of a new car will be the plug-in, most efficient model, and an option would be slightly less so (instead of today’s reverse situation of a hybrid being an option for a less efficient, ice-only model).
How’s that for a paradigm shift?!
I agree that it would be better for GM not to have a a prior investment in older technology to hold it back when this kind of innovation becomes possible.
Voltec is the best starting point for all future hybrids, and inherently superior to any enhancement of older technologies.
+6
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:13 pm)To have a claim you’d have to have bought one and somehow I expect you won’t.
-4
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:13 pm)While Honda’s unable to outmarket Toyota; both have left GM in the hybrid dust. Burning question: Will the Li-ion hybrid be obsolescence given near-future superior EV technology OR is the LI-ion hybrid a threat to the stand-alone ICE. So far Li-ion hybrids sales are still very small compared to ICE. However, with dozens of battery companies intensely competing for next-gen Li electrodes and EEStor making noise-a true game-changing advancement is clearly on the horizon. I’d say, GM is making the right choice in hedging its commitments. And this must be said-VOLT 300 range has to be increased. And I see no reason why it shouldn’t have 20-30 gal. tank and allow the CS mode to standalone 80% SOC.
As it is right now a 300 mile range means VOLT will only be marginally relevant in 2012. … By 2011 we’re gonna see 1000 mile range EV’s.
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:15 pm)Is Dagwood doing sock-puppets now?
+5
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:19 pm)Um…..
There’s no EPA rating nor did the EPA test the car, therefore any claims really are not valid. Wait for the sticker EPA value, then sue the EPA for claiming the car doesn’t meet the claim the EPA says it does.
Did you read the article?lol….. The claimants recived a few 10 thousand and the attorney got it in the 2 millions!!! What a rip!
+8
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:27 pm)The cancellation of GM’s Prius-too (Secundus? Tertius? Quartus?) program could be construed as good news: “Hey guys, the Volt’s definitely gonna work, so we don’t need Plan B anymore.”
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:27 pm)IMHO, GM was way L8 in the game when it came to battery tech. Most BEV’s will go down to 75%-80% soc. That’s the typical mfgr’s rating. At this moment GM is in contract with LG for the LiMn cells. These are roughly 3000 cycles at 70% DOD. Today, plain commodity LiFePO4 cells now are spec’d to have 5000 cycles at 70% DOD.
Most BEV’s will take their cells to 75% DOD, maybe 80%. GM babaies the cells just for longevity and buffer.
But I agree.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:27 pm)You are not wrong and all these things should be looked at.
Of course I am over simplifing things but isn’t the 2-mode system when boiled down really just an automatic transmission with an electric motor added into it? Now electric drive motors are stupidly expensive I agree, but no more than ~$1000, even for a powerful enough motor for a truck.
The GM hybrid trucks do not sell well because they cost too much.
http://configurator.autodata.gm.ca/GMCanada/buildYourVehicle.html;jsessionid=4F83C578F6FC0940C11AD2A8F3BFFAB7?dealer=&ds=&dc=&pagetype=&jsessionid=4F83C578F6FC0940C11AD2A8F3BFFAB7&Make=CH&SuperModel=11493&ModelOptions=&Model=11493&oemCabType=&acodeList=CAC00CHT362A0&cabStyle=CREW_CAB&bodyStyle=&wheelbase=&boxStyle=BOXLENGTH_5_7&driveType=DRIVETYPE_4X4&selectionChange=SuperModel
Base model Silverado $26k, base Hybrid $51k… (Canadian pricing) this is a very real problem.
This is a simple enough issue, cost reduce the system.
90% of real world engineering is cost reduction (I’m guessing on the number of course but believe it I’m not way off here.)
Leveraging the Volt program will allow access to better and cheaper battery and motor technology. Not to mention the software improvements the Volt guys have no doubt made.
A $26k hybrid work truck would be a winner.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:31 pm)Holy Sh|t Batman!
That’s damn near twice the cost for maybe a few more MPG.
Dec 18th, 2009 (12:49 pm)If it’s not Voltec I’m not interested. Why play around with taking an old school transmission and fitting small electric motors for a 20% increase in mpg?
Install a 200 HP 3 phase electric motor with buyer options regarding initial rage battery size. Even a 10 mile range battery will be great for around town hopping. Examples of this are auto parts deliveries, floral deliveries, bakery deliveries, retirement home transport services, pizza deliveries, school bus applications, medical courier services…. ect.
It’s time to get over the “hybrid” fad and move onto the meat and potatoes. It’s safe to say we’re all sick of the smell of gasoline.
=D~
+2
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:01 pm)I agree. You can’t compete with the Prius on its own terms. Ford already carved out the larger, more comfortable, fun to drive version. Honda did the cheaper version. What’s left for GM? Other than being two years behind everyone else?
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:01 pm)Friday December 18, 2009, 11:28 am EST
Oil jumps after Iranians seize Iraqi oil field
Iranian troops enter Iraq and oil prices jump on fears of extended conflict in the Middle East
Iraq’s Deputy Foreign Minister Mohammed Haj Aziz said Iranian soldiers surrounded a well Thursday night. He did not know who was in control of the area now.
Benchmark crude for January delivery added 3 cents to $74.11 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Most of the trading already has switched to the February contract, which climbed fell cents to $74.18 a barrel.
While there are enormous supplies of crude now because of the global economic downturn, a conflict between Iran and Iraq would certainly crimp supply.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Oil-jumps-after-Iranians-apf-1827275502.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=
=D~
+6
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:02 pm)Since the last few articles have to do with marketing, and since GM seems to have new blood in marketing, I would like to say this:
First we have to start with motivation. A reason to buy something that saves gas.
Up to now, the Prius led with a goal of stopping global warming through better efficiency. But this has 2 major flaws:
1) Efficiency won’t stop global warming. Not even close. We need other fuel sources.
2) Most people aren’t passionate about global warming.
To explain the second point, I’ll do some rough demographics:
• Roughly 1/3 of the U.S. population believes global warming is a hoax.
• Roughly 1/3 believe global warming is real, but it won’t affect us that much.
• Roughly 1/3 believe global warming is a major issue demanding immediate action.
With this kind of demographic, you will never see major changes in policy. Instead, you will see lip service.
Now let’s change things a little and see what happens. What if the motivation was to reduce or eliminate oil imports? Forget about the green crowd for now. Remind people that reducing foreign oil:
• improves our economy
• helps reduce funding for terrorists
• makes the U.S. stronger
• reduces the power of many nations hostile toward the U.S.
• etc.
So with this you have a different market demographic that includes hawks, evangelicals, economists, farmers, policy folks, etc., etc.. Just look at the the Pickens plan – very different demographic.
And by the way, the green crowd knows reducing foreign oil will also help stop global warming, so you get this demographic for free. Now you have a majority consensus, and that can significantly change policy and purchasing habits.
So GM, please stop marketing the Volt as a green car, and start talking about
reducing foreign oil.
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:02 pm)GM is already selling a Cruze with DI and turbo that gets 40mpg, and soon will have HCCI that should increase mpg another 30% and who knows what other fuel efficiency improvements they’re working on, but if they can sell a nice car like the Cruze for $5,000 less than the Prius and still gets 45mpg or so without all of the hybrid maintenance worries they really have no reason to invest all that time and energy when they’ve already been working on gen 3 Voltec for a year and are looking at the cost falling precipitously as the EV specific components fall in cost with so many auto makers soon ordering these parts) and batteries get lighter, cheaper, longer lasting (therefore not needing as much buffer) and more robust when they become solid state (therefore not needing as much temp regulating stuff) pretty soon people will be stupid not to buy one when they consider the fuel and maintenance cost saved.
-1
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:08 pm)Not quite. Toyota and Ford entered a cross-licensing agreement, where Toyota swapped HSD licensing to Ford in exchange for some diesel tech that Ford had developed.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:10 pm)You were wondering where the money was coming for “Big Ed” to prematurely repay the government loans, early?
Now you know.
Scrapping the strong HEV project coukld cede the entire market for those people with no convenient way to recharge their vehicles, to the competitors. Perhaps he felt that equiping more cars with BAS II + standard, along with the spread of downsized DI turbo engines, will provide the low 40 mpg figures wanted.
However, many of you are just making an ignorant assumption about the 2-mode hybrid. You think it ddin’t sell well ,and there were not fantastic mileage ‘number’ improvements noted. But GM designed the 2 mode as a downsize from the Allison Bus 2-mode hybrid transmissions.
The First generation was PURPOSELY designed to go into the heaviest trucks and to be able to handle the highest torque and power requirements. That’s why it was mated with big RWD V8s powered BoF trucks. Percentage wise, there were tremendous mileage increases but not fancy mileage ‘numbers’ in the thirties or better.
The second portion of the first generation 2-mode only now becoming available was further downsized and oriented to FWD, for use in the big Crossovers. Still with large V6s. The Saturn Vue PHEV was to be the first generation showcase that became the aborted Buick small crossover.
When the real second generation 2-modes, scheduled for 2010-2011 appear, they will be further downsized and oriented to Cars. Only the price is no object Germans, with their increasingly obsolesent heavy weight barges, are using the truck-intended, 2-mode in their massive Autobahn crusers. They almost have to do so, as they weigh as much as a heavy truck.
When the dual mode is mated to add it HP to a large I-4 or small V6, will we see large ‘number’ mileage increases. There is still a need to provide a PHEV auto oriented hybrid that is larger than the EREV archtecture can handle.
Don’t forget the VOLT is using a C-segment car as its launch. The battery would need to be bigger to handle a D-segment Malibu, and both battery and electric motor/gas engine lwould need upgrading to handle an E-segment car like the LaCrosse or XTS.
I expect he new lighter, cheaper, FWD second generation PHEVs to show up in the next generation lambda Crossovers, and their further downsized Equinox-Terrain brethren. It should show in the big cars such as the Cadillac XTS and its Buick and Chevy equivalents.
Imagine what a Equinox I-4 with a 2-mode second generation FWD version mated to its smaller I-4 will be capable of achieving. Since its highway mileage is already 32 mpg. It should generate the hybrid mileage figures that y’all wanted to see originally. It should be capable of reaching near 40 mpg as a HEV, and near the the low triple digits as a PHEV.
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:15 pm)The reason I am not sold on the Cruze is that we’re still dealing with a low HP Corolla-like vehicle. The beauty of going with electric drive is all the practicality and fun of having good power combined with smooth whisper quiet operation. And superior handling characteristics. And very high MPG. In my view this is a huge plus over small gasoline engine cars routinely having to rev to 5000 rpm to compete.
Once the first publicly owned Voltec cars are on the street everyone will research the benefits of ownership. Yes, even BMW drivers. You’ll see.
=D~
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:17 pm)Yes!
That was the other part of their agreement.
Damn, i’m getting old. Memory is fading……….what was the question?
-4
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:17 pm)Fighting Prius means offering something with roughly the same efficiency for roughly the same price.
Is GM abandoning the 50 MPG for $25,000 market?
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:24 pm)Two reasons for 2 mode.
First, it already exists as a production piece so it’s easy to implement.
Second, time… It is going to take a few years to develop a ‘heavy duty’ Voltec. Time that I don’t think they really have.
A 20 to 30% improvement in light truck mileage would be a huge improvement in the fleet numbers. (That is a lot of gas that won’t be burned!)
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:29 pm)Grass fed beef has much fewer carbon emissions associated with it. It’s also much healthier. (It has more Omega-3s.)
And we’re not spending $100 billion a year. We’re contributing “our share”–whatever that is, to a $100 billion dollar fund we’re setting up.
Global warming is happening now, even if we stopped emissions completely tomorrow. So, we need to do what we can to mitigate the consequences.
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:33 pm)You guys are making me hunger for Steak.
Hmmmm…..I think that’ll be for dinner.
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:42 pm)Greetings all…
GM needs to focus on a few things then grow their business from there.
1) The Volt is an excellent model to grow from. With the improvement of battery technology (capacity, charging time, less weight/kwh, etc) the less need for the ICE. It will be much simpler for GM to change Voltec Serial Hybrid technology to a BEV then for Toyota to adjust the Parallel Hybrid of the Prius.
2) Follow the old adage “do a few things really well”. They need to fix the perception that consumers have about their product. This goes back to design and marketing…. which sadly, GM presently sucks at.
3) Focus efforts on the early adopters. I personally feel that Chevy was the wrong brand for the Volt to initially come out on. Chevy is the “everyman” vehicle and early adopters are typically more affluent and want to have more car – and are willing to pay for it (some other GM brands do come to mind first). “Voltec” could have easily been ported to a Chevy branded vehicle after success in Cadillac or Saturn (sadly no longer with us).
Regardless, it is coming out as a Chevy and it is looking to be reasonably stacked for a consumer willing to pay ~$40,000.
4) “New GM, New GM, New GM!!!!!” Attention GM execs…. this is you only opportunity. You got to press the reset button on our dime…. don’t F$@K THIS UP! Purge the dead wood from your ranks, hire the best Advertising/Marketing guys for the Volt and for Gods sake, don’t do any more “Chevy Volt Dancers”. Fire the idiot who greelighted that nightmare. TMBG is 10 times better! (nod to Lutz for that one).
Harrier1970
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:45 pm)Streetlight #78 Says: “As it is right now a 300 mile range means VOLT will only be marginally relevant in 2012. … By 2011 we’re gonna see 1000 mile range EV’s.”
============================
Right…..
And EESTOR will make a new announcement that their working prototype will be delivered by 12-31-2011!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And K-Tel will market a personal jetpack to fly you around for $19.99 plust shipping and handling of $50K, but if you act right now, you can get a second unit for free – just pay separate shipping and handling……………..
Unless the Visitors arrive and give us the 350 KWh pack that weighs 15 Lbs and is made from chicken fat, so it only costs $25.00, I would not be looking for a low cost 1000 mile BEV anytime soon.
And thus the reason for the Volt!!!!!
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:46 pm)Hybrid trucks are dealing with an expensive system of transmission motors. True, the result is good MPG. The downside is having to live with limited power and gasoline use on hard acceleration. An Escape hybrid or a Prius truck may work for you. I’ll take the Voltec.
=D~
+4
Dec 18th, 2009 (1:54 pm)=D~
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:00 pm)LOL….
You have no idea how close you are to being correct.
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:05 pm)Your comparison numbers are off for the base model prices (’10 Insight vs. ’10 Prius). You have to compare the Insight LX vs the Prius Level II. It looks like you used the Level I Prius, which is the fleet version with practically no accessories and is not even available (and never will be from 99% of dealerships). Meanwhile there is no Insight fleet version to compare that to.
Insight LX and Prius Level II are much more comparable. Price difference is closer to:
Insight-19800 +710 destination (source honda.com)
Prius- 22400 +750 destination (source toyota.com)
the MSRP difference is 2640! This before taxes and interest.
Prius lists way better torque and HP but real world performance isn’t actually very noticeable. It does have allot more room. The only other main difference is the Prius level II has cruise control (which anyone can add themselves to the Insight LX for a couple hundred).
$2640 buys allot of gas and you won’t be making that up with the Prius anywhere near current fuel prices, despite Prius’ higher gas mileage. Also note that the gas-mileage is much much closer when you compare long-distance high-speed highway drives (something that, interestingly, the EPA highway test doesn’t actually test for).
Insight definitely the more economical highway car if you don’t have people in the back seat and you drive allot of miles per year. Prius definitely the better city car or if you have allot of cargo and people you drag around.
The Insight definitely looks 1,000 times better inside and out. Prius’ ridiculous centered dash and the bubbly, futuristic, cartoonish look of the Prius console makes me think I’m in a bad sci-fi movie. The outside is even worse; what is with that horribly placed hood emblem dangling over the front? And the hood lines leading up to the emblem make it look like the hood is being stretched tight. The stupid flares on the headlights are just plain bad Pontiac-like styling. The back tail-lights still never got upgraded to something that would make it look less like a kitchen appliance. They tried to make it aggressive looking and I am glad they didn’t try harder. Honda achieved a classic sporty look inside and out despite the aero shape constraints.
Keep in mind that you’re basing the sales differences in one of the weirdest car markets we have experienced, over less than a year’s time, with one car basically being entirely new and the other being an established veteran and media darling with large faithful following. In time things might change.
I don’t think this means you can’t go up against the Prius. It does illustrate that the Prius has an advantage in consumer loyalty from the types of people who buy these cars. In my opinion, Honda could have made the price difference clearer in their commercials. I think if they had started another $500-1000 cheaper they could have made a sustainable jump start. Don’t be surprised if they creep up over the years though.
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:06 pm)Great Gooogley Mooogley!
It’s a PRIUSAURUS!
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:12 pm)Obviously we are talking about what GM should have been planning 3-5 years ago.
I hope they have a Fusion/Prius beater in the works right now other than the Volt.
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:22 pm)It would seem from Lord Moncktons open letter to the UN that the global warming histeria can be manipulated by people trying to make a point.
From his graphs, it looks like the warming is not really accelerating and just a natural extension of the warming coming out of the little ice age. If this is true, our efforts are a fools errand and a waste of money that truly will lead to the death of many people due to the wasting of our resources.
An interesting look at the data. See below.
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/pachauri_letter.pdf
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:38 pm)Matthew B Says:
December 18th, 2009 at 12:10 pm .LRGVProVolt:
The Volt is the only vehicle that will compete with the Prius. Ford doesn’t have a hybrid in the same class: does it?Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Not that they are being public about. Who knows what any of the carmakers are doing behind the scenes. It would sure make me happy if they were.
—————————–
Ford has been working on a plug in hybrid for release in 2012 for some time now.
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:39 pm)I’m late to the party today. I haven’t read half of the 100 posts so far, Dan’s opinion mirrors mine in content and enthusiasm!
I can’t see how going plugless in the hope of out Pruising a Prius makes much sense.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:41 pm)Sometimes we forget just how transparent GM has made the Volt’s development.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:48 pm)Even 43 mpg (combined) would be nice, and you don’t need a hybrid for that.
2009 Ford Focus ECOnetic Test Drive: Superstar of Fun Hits Almost 43 MPG … in Europe
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4280758.html
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:49 pm)They are too expensive but its hard to say how much since GM really loads up on the fancy options when you want one. if you configure two models similarly you will see the 2-mode premium is not $20k, perhaps less than $10k but its very hard to match the two packages.
The 2-Mode transmissions are complicated, two 60 kW electric motors, three planetary gearsets and four traditional hydraulic wet clutches. The 6 liter V8 ICE is an atkinson type and features bank disactivation..
GM would have been better off with a single Honda type pancake motor, that is the setup you describe.
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:55 pm)GM made this decision based on much more info than we have, and we don’t know thier rationale.
This decision would make a lot of sense if GM has enough info to be confident that they can sharply reduce the price of the Volt in the 2011-12 time frame. If the Volt costs only a few thousand more than the Prius, it could steal lots of share. If it still costs $40k, it will not be a significant contributer to family transportation in the coming years.
Dec 18th, 2009 (2:57 pm)Raser Technologies has already developed a drivetrain using their Symetron technology! They modified a Hummer that gets 100 mpg and 40 miles AER. GM collaborated with them on the project.
go to this link: http://www.rasertech.com/motors-and-drives/products/drive-systems/series-phev-drive-system
and watch the video. GM should partner with them now!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:01 pm)Boy, I was with you until the very last sentence. I think that they need to get both messages out – reduction in foreign oil and the green halo product. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:15 pm)Thanks for the link – interesting Hummer video. I can’t find the size of the battery posted on the site. The architecture sure sounds a lot like the EREV from GM – they even use the same terms like range extender. I wonder how they pull off the 40 mile AER with the areo of a Hummer?!?
Be well and happy trails,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:19 pm)It is a shame, but if you can not compete successfully in the game, it is better to take your equipment and go home. So to speak.
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:21 pm)I believe its a 50kwh battery.. did you see how big that 268hp motor looked?.. awsome
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:21 pm)I’ll take that bet.
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:25 pm)I kinda like the smell of gasoline
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:30 pm)Batt pack 700VDC!!!!
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:32 pm)This has been said before, but so much disinformation about the impact of importing foreign oil.
Rush Limbaugh (though I agree with him no many things) and Glenn Beck et al, downplay and ignore this.
Sure global warming is a hoax. And if Oil were cheap and we had plenty of jobs for everyone it would be great to keep importing it.
But this should be the most 100% agreed upon issue in our country, but because of disinformation and conflicting messages, everyone misses what a slam dunk issue this is.
- We have to spend billions to keep the oil lanes open
- sometime soon war will break out in the middle east and oil will be $200 a barrel. Iran just feels they can do whatever they want and if we are too weak to check them the Israelis certainly will never let them develop nuclear weapons. This war can’t be too far off
- Even if we had peace in the middle east the cheap oil is mostly gone and over time oil will get more and more expensive,
- the dollar will continue to get weaker making oil more expensive over time to import
- hundreds of billions now and eventually trillions to buy oil could be spent to create jobs in our economy, we have lost so many jobs overseas and this trend will continue, that stopping importing of energy is the only slam dunk sure fire thing we can do to keep american dollars in this economy.
I could go on, but stopping the importing of oil should be the nations number one priority. It could be one in less than 5 years. We’ve had 36 years since the first oil embargo. We are crawling in that direction thanks to the volt. Pickens has tried but he has not been able to galvanize the country.
The longer we wait the more draconian the measure will have to be when the crap hits the fan.
- All NEW cars sold must be at least 15 miles AER
- Instead of money to buy windows we should be giving people money to change out homes that use fuel oil (15% of oil use or 25% of imported oil)
- Credits to convert Diesels and and Buses to natural gas
Just keep trying to figure out if we can hold off the next major middle east war until 2012 when I have an electric car, but can’t see that we’d be that lucky.
What I really wish is we could hold off the next middle east war so it could be fought without the u.s. because we won’t need the oil.
Let the chineese go fight it.
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:33 pm)Your right about the target being right for the vehicles to go after. The problem is just how big the hybrid system has to be in a pickup. If it’s only going to be a grocery getter, then the hybrid system can be smallish.
But if the truck is used to move heavy, large things, particularly trailers, then a hybrid system is going to be very expensive just due to it’s sheer size.
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:41 pm)It’s not big at all. Here’s a very simple third party method to hybridize…
http://www.merrillchevy.com/hybrid-vehicles/fox-news-make-a-hybrid-vehicle-netgain-easemis
OR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6WkjIYI3qE
This product found here:
http://www.netgaintechnologiesllc.com/Media/EASMediaSummaryInformation/tabid/571/Default.aspx
The principle is kind of the same as Honda’s IMA (Integrated Motor Assist). Last I checked it was in the range of $5,000.00 – $7,500.00 installed, depending on batt pack you pick.
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:41 pm)When I say we could stop importing oil in 5 years with a concerted national effort it would take more than the bullet points I listed, we’d have to do a lot of things. This would create jobs and keep money in our economy.
We’d have to have the all new cars with 15 miles AER by 2013.
And we’d have to start our own massive drilling in alaska and the golf now so that it would be online in 5 years.
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:46 pm)I haven’t seen so many attempts to poke holes in the data since all those “scientists” from the tobacco industry explained why smoking didn’t cause cancer.
To me the discussion is not all that important because there are so many reasons to stop using fossil fuels — chief among them the fact that because of relative scarcity and rising demand we won’t see real economic growth unless we do. But this whole “denier business” just seems incredibly stupid. When you have icebergs off the coast of Australia and the polar ice is melting is there really any doubt that temperatures are rising? This clown is arguing that it’s not raining outside when, if you looked out the window, you could see it’s pouring.
To be fair, many who doubt human caused global warming — like Bob Lutz — admit that the earth is warming. They’re not idiots. They just say it’s not the result of human activity and attribute it to sunspots or something. They may be right, but it seems more likely that they’re wrong. And anyway, if you believe that fighting terrorism makes sense, meaning that you believe it makes sense to spend the money to prevent a small chance of a significant catastrophe, then you should believe in spending money to combat the possibility of global warming — it’s the same idea.
But hey, we could have another eruption the size of Tambora’s and we’d be colder than we were fifty years ago.
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:52 pm)In other news, GM is probably shutting down Saab because they weren’t able to find a buyer. Or at least one that they liked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/19/business/global/19saab.html?hp
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:55 pm)They *did* say that it was the largest one available!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (3:57 pm)Ya know, I have always wonderd, how is it when something is to be sold like this, why care who buys it? It’s kind of like what I heard about this Rush Limbaugh when he wanted to buy some team and the franchise refused due to his “Political association”.
My thought is, if you need to sell it, who gives a sh|t who buys it?
Isn’t that kind of discriminatory?
+5
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:01 pm)For GM to opt out of this project, which would have surpass the gas mileage of the Prius, it probably mean the Voltec technology holds lots of promises——making it a better way to spend the budget.
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:05 pm)I have New Years eve off from work. I’ll be over to huff a gallon of ethyl with you. I’ll pick up an econo size bag of pork rinds on the way over.
=D~
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:07 pm)Well said.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:07 pm)I agree. I was just in yellowstone, and you could see the effects on the whitebark pine as the pine beetle goes into higher altitudes. It’s having a major effect on the whole eco-system. If you go to Alaska, you can see where the glaciers used to be, and where they are now.
Regardless of the cause, shouldn’t we spend money to mitigate the damages? I’m not even talking about cutting emissions anymore. I’m talking about shoring up levies, researching drought resistant crops, and pest control. That’s what the $100 billion is supposed to be about…
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:08 pm)Personaly I prefer Wild Game.
Is “Global Warming” The biggest hoax of all time? Or was Y2K bigger?
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:12 pm)I think it’s more about what they’re selling. GM is wants to sell the SAAB brand, and the plants. They don’t want to sell the intellectual property associated with it.
Also, given how integrated production is, they need a partner who’s viable. Or they’ll just have to spend even more money in the long run shutting it down. SAAB can’t function as a standalone unit. Whoever buys SAAB will need to partner with GM on some level. Or another major manufacturer–none of whom are remotely interested at this ponit.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:12 pm)We now return to the topic of the day……. (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:14 pm)Balloon Boy gets my vote.
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:22 pm)“If a conventional Cruze with the new BAS+ mild hybrid can get 40 mpg average and cost ~ $20k with many features and amentities, will many customers spend an additional $6k or $8k to get 53 mpg?”
*********************************************************************
GM never said the Cruze is going to be a hybrid. Where did you get that info?
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:26 pm)Cue the dancing girls and hommie spinnin on his head…..
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:28 pm)LOL, that was 2 days ago.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:29 pm)GM says they will stop pursuit of a “Dedicated Hybrid”, Toyota says they unveil their “Dedicated Hybrid”.
Exactly what da hell is a “Dedicated Hybrid”? I would think the Prius IS one. There’s no opposite ICE model…maybe the echo?…..nah…..
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:36 pm)I think that it’s a plugless hybrid intended to compete with the likes of a Prius. IMO an altogether bad idea when they have done so much with the Volt.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:47 pm)Agreed — I see the Ford hybrids fairly often. In fact, I saw two Escape Hybrids following each other on my way back from lunch — but I actively look for the hybrid badges and listen for the PWM controllers (when I’m walking/biking) because I’m just like that. Of course, my numbers may be a little distorted because the two Excape Hybrids that I saw this afternoon were both parking-enforcement vehicles, and they spend a lot of time on the road — but I’ve seen several different privately owned Escapes in my town (even though I see them less frequently, due to their lighter duty cycle). I see Fusion Hybrids now and then too, especially on the Interstate.
The Hybrid I’ve never seen in-person Chevy-branded Tahoe hybrid. I did see one of the GM Contractor’s Special mild-hybrid pickup trucks in a dealer’s parking lot once. I think I’ve seenblinged out hybrid Escalades on the highway a couple of times.
Dec 18th, 2009 (4:53 pm)Chances are they (PWM) are in the 20KHz and above range so we can’t hear them. Curtis controllers an Kelley were notorious for their audibility.
+3
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:02 pm)There are so many hoaxes. I think the flat earth hoax was a pretty big one. What people dont realize is most people still knew the earth was round. Anyone that lived near the ocean could ‘see’ the curve of the earth. But it was a pretty effective hoax to control people which is what most of these types of hoaxes are about.
I just wish they’d use the global warming hoax to help us instead of hurt us.
Coal is ok it is imported oil we need to work on to ‘fight global warming’.
Eventually in a Billion years the sun will burn us to a crisp, and we can blame George Bush!
+5
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:03 pm)I don’t think you get it. The thousands of scientist who doubt man made global warming know that climate changes. North america was under water at one point and was covered by glaciers at another point. What he is arguing is that the temperatures are rising at a nominal rate and that is has been going on for some time now (ever since the end of the little ice age a few centuries ago) and that it is not related to our C02 production.
What warmed us out of the little ice age.
What caused the massive droughts in the 30′s
What caused hurricanes to be worse in the 50′s
Today, every weather issue is somehow related to climate change and our C02 production.
Lord Monckton is pointing out clearly that the UN guys have cherry picked the data to make the rise look like it is accelerating at the end of the 20th century to coincide with our C02 production. He then shows with the same data that they have manipulated their curve fits to make it look extreme.
If the temperature rise is not correlated with C02, then perhaps we should not setup a carbon trading scheme that takes billions of our wealth and spreads it around to other countries.
The Kyoto agreement is a perfect example. The signers never reduced their carbon footprint. In fact it increased after signing the agreement for most of the countries. They are OK, however, since they sent money to China and India to offset their Carbon sins. China took this money and used it to reduce the rate of its carbon footprint increase (and we know we can trust them on this).
I personally think most people agree that we should cut down on our oil usage. Especially imported oil. Perhaps we should target that goal head on. Targeting C02 casts a wider net that will damage other industries based on junk science. Coal miners are already being laid off in West VA due to the increase in regulations. The EPA is ready to treat C02 as a pollution even though we breath it out every day and it is great for vegetation. These are the concerns of the so called deniers. Not melting ice.
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:09 pm)Thank you for the excellent link.
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:19 pm)Is this canceled one is BAS+ ? or
BAS, BAS+, 2 mode and voltec exists and plug-in two mode ( which is supposed to appear in Saturn and then vueik – for this i thought target was 70mpg ) is in development and another one is canceled ( hybrid for sedans ) ?
Sorry i am confused
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:23 pm)Before coming on too strong, you might want to look at the data carefully. The trend in earth temperatures over the last two centuries has been slow warming, though the last decade’s data shows slight cooling. The question is how much if any is related to human activity, and if so, what human activity. Before spending billions, it is good to verify that the goal is well chosen.
I agree with you that the US will be better off if we can import much less petrol. The argument here is economic, not scientific.
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:26 pm)Hey Muddy,
You really nailed it really well regarding the diminishing returns after 40 mpg! I’m right there with you on that one!!
And, You really nailed it on trucks too!! I’d bet GM has had several exceptional discoveries within the Voltec research that will have absolutely profound effects on large truck efficiencies.
I am still extremely opposed to the conversions of CNG for the purpose of propelling trucks!! CNG has sulphur dioxide in it and carbon dioxide in it. IT IS BY NO MEANS A PURE FUEL.
Have you ever followed a CNG truck? They stink. What are you breathing? The sulphur is bad for catalytic converters, and, once those stop working, then there is more carbon monixide to breathe in because the carbon monoxide is supposed to be converted to carbon dioxide in all catalytic converters. Pickens needs to be up front with everyone on these problems with CNG.
Natural Gas is great for home heating. And, as a very well put natural gas ad on PBS stated, “Natural Gas makes wind energy work”. This is true, because you can quickly ramp up natural gas generation. Natural gas has excellent places in the energy mix, but to represent that it is ok to go forward with it, without answering the damaging potentials of the sulphur in it isn’t sufficiently responsible from my viewpoints.
Plugging in trucks overnight (even with simple block heaters here int the cold midwest) to just keep the blocks warm will eliminate more pollutions than anything else, and, the engines will last longer if the warmer oil gets pumped up to all the parts faster than if everything was really cold.
But what if GM is developing all kinds of new approaches as spin-offs from Voltec R&D? From the technical aspects of how well I know GM designs at the deeper levels, I have a very strong hunch that GM has discovered all kinds of advanced things in the works for trucks as well.
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:30 pm)A smaller AER is still good. Trucks don’t haul things every day unless they are used commercially. If you can get that city mileage up from 16 to 22 or so using a battery and electric motor, you are talking a huge amount of gasoline displaced.
We also need to make everything E85. This will displace a very huge amount of foreign oil. (75 percent of current use after the entire fleet is converted.) E85 is a much simpler way to get people to change because basically they don’t have to change anything at all! (Well, they gotta choose a different pump, but, that’s not a lot of hassle.) This can be done in 10 years if we only allow E85 new vehicles right now.
Even if we still allow E85 vehicles to burn E10, we will have the fleet ready when we drop E10 all together. It only costs a car company a couple hundred bucks to make a vehicle E85 capable.
BTW, the Volt *is* E85 already
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:37 pm)Hey GXT,
By any company doing the very same things as every other company, that company can never ever have anything significantly better than every other company. (That’s “group-think”).
While all these advancements are not going to be all available, all at once, to all customers, at all price levels, tomorrow or even in two years, the profound thing to observe here is that a huge firm like GM is progressively abandoning all the “me too” technologies.
This is because GM has realized that they will have all Voltec technologies sold upon delivery to the Chevy Stores instantly.
In addition, all the GM R&D has become so extremely advanced ahead of everything else, (too long suppressed by “EZ-fossil”), that it seems to me that it would make very clear sense that GM is taking Voltec right accross the board. That’s because of “layer upon layer upon layer” of entirely new efficient approaches to everything with this overwhelming abandonment of “techologies as usual” based previously on a 100% duty-cylcle of ICE of the last 110(?) years or so.
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:40 pm)WSJ is reporting that GM talks to sell Saab have ended and that Saab will be closed down. I am sorry to see that happen. GM has not seemed to be good at managing low-volume vehicles.
+2
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:47 pm)There is a strong relationship between CO2 and temperature. Unfortunately for Algore, it’s the exact opposite of the way he presents it.
If you look at the big-ass chart behind Algore in his docu-drama, you clearly see that the temperature rise PRECEDES the CO2 rise.
This suggests that temperature rise causes CO2 rise, but, this also is not proven. Although in the lab you can show this to be the case.
I will believe that a computer can predict global warming as soon as it can predict the temperature on my porch within 10 degrees. They can’t even get the weather prediction right a couple days in advance. So they are saying that their computer model is accurate for 20 years in advance?? Yeah right.
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:48 pm)Gee, you must be drinking the same stuff that CaptainJackSparrow was consuming yesterday.
But then he just got silly. You seem to be a MEAN drunk.
Dec 18th, 2009 (5:51 pm)We should do all these things, where the particulars make them sensible.
Dec 18th, 2009 (6:07 pm)For those of you interested in electric trucks you might be interested in this link: http://www.examiner.com/x-10796-Boston-Automotive-Examiner~y2009m12d16-Turn-your-car-into-a-Chevy-Volt
It is a company making kits for converting commercial vehicles to electric. Including heavy duty utility vehicles. Don’t know if they have any credibility, however.
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (6:21 pm)Exactly.
Relying on other nations for 2/3 of our oil is ridiculous.
And people that say “drill baby drill” are just trying to fool you. U.S. oil production peaked in the early 70′s, and has been declining ever since. We can drill all we want, and it won’t really change anything. At least Pickens gave a straight answer on this one.
And world oil is peaking now. Once the world economy picks up again, and China and India start buying more cars, oil is going to get scarce fast.
I like James Woolsey’s analogy with Salt. Here’s the end of his speech:
“Salt was the only way to preserve meat until the very late 1800’s. It had a monopoly. Believe it or not, countries went to war over salt mines. If you had a salt mine, you could dominate your neighbor. It was a very big deal.
“Today – salt on the table out there. Do you know where it came from? Are we salt independent? Do you care? Does anybody care, unless they’re in the salt business? Of course not. It’s a useful commodity that does some things, and we buy and sell it in international commerce. Nobody dominates their neighbor anymore because they have a salt mine.
“We need to do that to oil. And we can do it with electricity the way electricity affected salt monopolies in the late 1800’s. We can, we should, and we must, as a major national priority, destroy oil’s monopoly. Absolutely, totally, completely, destroy oil’s monopoly.”
Dec 18th, 2009 (6:24 pm)Keep in mind that the Prius technology is over a decade old now and that the first generation Prius (based on the much unloved Echo) sold poorly and probably lost money. If you tried to sell the first gen Prius today against the current Prius, you’d be crazy. My point is there’s no point in GM starting a strong hybrid program from practically scratch, now. There’s no conceivable way they could make something competitive with the Prius at this point for many years. The time to have tried that has long since passed.
The way to go is with Voltec. It really won’t compete directly with the Prius, yet will pull buyers away from it and from other places that really wanted something electric but couldn’t get anything like that. Spend the engineers working on the cost reductions on Voltec. In the years it would have taken to make something Prius-like they ought to be able to get the Voltec costs down significantly, generator efficiency up and ultimately wind up with something that will have Toyota chasing GM. That’s going to take awhile, but probably about the same number of years it would have taken GM to just catch up to Toyota using a now “classic” style strong hybrid.
Dec 18th, 2009 (6:24 pm)I will try to find out the answer to that question. This link shows the chasis with the drivetrain components for what ends up being an electrified GMC Sierra, I believe. You can see three blue boxes that the batteries are mounted in. There are several pics of the batteries. I’m not sure of what motor the GM Volt is using but Raser claims to have improved significantly on the efficiency of AC induction motors. Thsi would possibly be a factor. You can make a guess of battery pack power from the size of the three blue boxes.
What I like about the drivetrain is its simplicity. I think the principle of KISS is important in these designs.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 18th, 2009 (6:27 pm)Sorry; I forgot to paste in the link:
http://www.rasertech.com/motors-and-drives/products/drive-systems/series-phev-drive-system
happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 18th, 2009 (6:30 pm)Why would you go throwing facts on a discussion like this?
Dec 18th, 2009 (6:35 pm)I found this link with a lot of info:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/08/h3e-20090826.html
They actually got 50+ miles out of A liquid-cooled, 41 kWh lithium-ion battery pack.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 18th, 2009 (6:44 pm)Yes.
And GM has said they want to do this, but they would require a “level playing field” to do so. This is corporate speak for a government mandate, which Obama has promised by the end of 2012:
“Mandate All New Vehicles are Flexible Fuel Vehicles. Sustainably produced biofuels can create jobs, protect the environment and help end oil addiction – but only if Americans drive cars that will take such fuels. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will work with Congress and auto companies to ensure that all new vehicles have FFV capability – the capability by the end of his first term in office.”
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/factsheet_energy_speech_080308.pdf
(top of page 5)
Let’s hope he keeps this promise…
Dec 18th, 2009 (6:47 pm)Actually, the V6 IMA system in my accord hybrid I think would be awesome in a truck. In the Accord form it generates 276 HP, and delivers nearly 40MPG (generally mid-high 30′s) my best is 41MPG from Seattle to Portland
as well as decent city mileage (I get about 27 in the city). And as many of you know already, I drive the car like I’m stealing it, so that’s not hypermiling by any means. 0-60 is 6.7 seconds, even with the slushbox. 
Sadly, Honda dropped this drivetrain when the Accord Hybrid sold poorly to me and about 6000 others over several years. Their lesson learned was “people don’t want a performance hybrid” when the real lesson was probably “people don’t want a performance accord!” Honda doesn’t really have a presence in trucks but they would probably had MUCH more success sticking that drivetrain in the Pilot or some SUV. As far as I can see, applying an IMA style assist in truck-land would be a very good idea that nobody has even tried to exploit, yet. Of course when you consider that the Highlander Hybrid for all its expensive hybrid drive barely gets better mileage than the regular one maybe it’s not that simple, but I think the HSD isn’t well suited to the highlander application with the V6 engine. The IMA solution may have worked better. We will probably never know.
-6
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:13 pm)165.
Guy Incognito Says:
December 18th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
“GM Cancels Plan For 53 MPG Dedicated Chevy Hybrid”
The headline says it all.
GM, you are retreating from the constant and ever-present forward march of technology.
As Toyota is selling Hybrids, and you are not, you may not be around much longer.
Someone should tell GM’s Board of Directors that the stone age did not end for a lack of stone, it was supplanted by the constant and ever-present forward march of technology, in this case the Bronze Age.
I wish Ed Whitacre, and all the imbeciles on GM’s Board, good luck
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:37 pm)Thanks to everyone for the interesting, informative links.
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:41 pm)The Natural Fuel Act of 2009 will be taken up as soon as Congress finalizes National Health Care Reform. T. Boone Pickens has urged Congress to enable natural gas to be utilized in our large transport fleets by subsidizing production of natural gas from shale oil fields where exist throughout the U.S. It is estimated that we have 150 years of natural gas locked up in the shale. T. Boone suggests taking the 20% of the fuel currently used in electric power plants and use that to produce CNG for these large trucks. No new technology is needed to make engines rum off of CNG. This is a temporary use of natural gas until technology finds a more powerful source, either advanced batteries or some other storage device like a supercapacitor. He predicts that it would take us approximately five years to replace foreign oil as a fuel for these fleets.
Biofuel will require tremendous volumes of water to produce, whereas extracting natural gas from shale appears not to impact as much. Perhaps a mix of E85 and CNG engines will help free us from foreign oil short term. Look to advances in supercapacitors over the intermediate and long hall to allows us to conserve our natural resources and utilize them more effectively.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 18th, 2009 (7:48 pm)The process of extracting gas from shale requires a large amount of water. I’m in an area of PA where the shale oil/gas deposits are just becoming developed and a lot of the local news centers on the impact on the local watershed. I’m not saying that this can’t be mitigated, I’m just saying that it *is* an issue. There are always trade-offs.
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (8:02 pm)The sooner we advance PV solar technology and wind power farms the better off we will be as they are free sources of energy. The others are all dependent upon availability of water which we as human all need to survive.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 18th, 2009 (8:29 pm)Here a link to an article just out today on doubling solar efficiency
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/24240/?nlid=2612&a=f
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (8:33 pm)Merry Christmas everyone. Yes, even to the trolls.
Dec 18th, 2009 (9:02 pm)This is the part that won’t work.
Yes, around 20% of our electrical production comes from natural gas. No, this part can’t be replaced by windmills.
As a fuel to make electricity, natural gas is the most expensive. So why don’t they use coal instead? This is because natural gas is the only fuel that be adjusted fast enough to react to peak power fluctuations.
So if you took natural gas out of the electrical power fuel equation, our grid wouldn’t really work.
Coskata’s process uses around 1 gallon of water for each gallon of ethanol produced, and they are already scaling up this process:
http://www.coskata.com/facilities/
Also, closed loop algae bio-reactors use much less water than other systems:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ih-DLurcZA
First, let’s assume that the perfect battery has already been invented, and BEVs have become ubiquitous. Assume fast charging stations are everywhere. That seems to be a lot of peoples’ dream, so let’s run with it. How would that work?
People would want to charge in 10 minutes or less. People would want around 250 miles of range. Some people would need larger vehicles, like an SUV or minivan.
The Volt is a compact car, and it gets 40 miles with 8kwh of usable battery, or 5 miles per kwh. An SUV or minivan would be much less efficient, perhaps 2.5 miles per kwh. So for an SUV or minivan with 250 miles of electric range, you would need around 100kwh of usable battery capacity.
Now let’s see about charging that in 10 minutes. 100khw in 10 minutes (1/6 hour) would be 600kw. That’s 600,000 watts. Over a half-million watts. Does anybody know what this means? A half-million watts will vaporize things, big things. It’s not a zap, it’s an explosion, and not a small one.
Now look at environmental conditions. We can cover the charging station, but not the car. The car may have rain or snow dripping all over it. Who is going to make this half-million watt connection?
Yes, I understand about testing the circuit ahead of time, and ramping power, but with this much juice, and with the possibility of rain and snow dripping all over the place, I truly believe that this will never be safe.
When you run the numbers, the dream turns into a nightmare…
Dec 18th, 2009 (9:12 pm)Nothing is free. In fact, PV solar is extremely expensive due to the high purity levels required, and the huge amounts of power required to produce that.
For the southwest, a much better solution is solar thermal. In fact, the biggest solar power plant in the world is solar-thermal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEGS
This is already cost competitive with coal. This also has the flexibility to augment with natural gas when a cloud passes by.
The newer solar-thermal plants being built today use the solar power tower design:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
“designs using liquid sodium in place of water have been demonstrated; this is a metal with high heat capacity, which can be used to store the energy before using it to boil water to drive turbines. These designs allow power to be generated when the sun is not shining.”
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:30 pm)Read about the history of the Vue hybrid. The plans changed so many times, it provided great blogging opportunities.
At times, we get acknowledgement of need (meat & potatoes). But it doesn’t last. They revert back to focusing on niche. This fundamental problem contributed to problems of the past and will continue until they finally decide to run a business rather than compete for the spotlight.
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:35 pm)BAS offers a combined MPG estimate of 29 for Malibu.
BAS+ would bump it up to the 33-34 range.
Two-Mode isn’t for 4-cylinder sedans.
Voltec is in the +100 MPG category, with a price to match.
There is nothing targeted for 50.
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:40 pm)That one uses a 14kw motor, it would work well in a sports car also
+1
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:52 pm)If you’re saying that GM is just “competing for the spotlight” by being so transparent during the Volt’s development, then I hope they continue. Their only “sin” in doing so is to open themselves to your criticism. Maybe other companies do this as a standard practice, but if that’s the case they sure hide it well. If we were allowed to peek behind the development curtain at any other major MFG, I’m pretty sure we’d see many of the same struggles GM has had.
Personally, I’m glad that GM (and Lyle) have included us, in the sense that we’ve been along to watch the Volt’s development. I wish Toyota had the same need to “compete for the spotlight”.
As to the the niche comment, doesn’t GM get a chance to see how the Volt is accepted before they ramp up the production numbers (and can get the price down)? They’d get (rightfully) slammed if they did otherwise.
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:31 pm)Much of your comment appears to be repeated from before; I seem to remember hte last part of your post. I will just make a comment on the copied part here.
One of the advantages of the super capacitor is its ability to give of its charge very rapidly; current batteries are limited in this case. It seems that many here find the super capacitor as dangerous because it can hold so much power. Just because it can do that does not mean that it must be charged to that much energy. In practical applications much less power may be needed. For example, if, and I repeat if, EEStor is a reality and not a mythe, they will be much less expensive than current batteries. They could easily replace the current battery technology; say they were to just be charged to the level that the replaced battery was charged to. Would it be any more dangerous than the battery. We are looking for advancements in batteries to increase the AER. We only need to charge to the level necessary to give us that range. The charge level of EESU would be safe, would be able to charge in 5 -10 minutes, and be able to give us the rapid discharge for good acceleration. What ever advancements in science give us in the future, be it EESU or some other super capacitor advancement that results in a lower cost device, will enable the electric automobile to become the future means of transportation replacing the ICE once and for all.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:35 pm)Well said. +1. GM is being unbelievably transparent. My only suggestion is that they lose the song and (especially) the dance.
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:36 pm)As I’ve said before, MPG is a fairly meaningless number for plug-ins.
Gallons per year is a much better yardstick. It’s like those yellow stickers we see on appliances with the yearly usage for an average user.
Bottom line: Efficiency alone won’t stop global warming, and it won’t stop our dependence on foreign oil. Not even close. We need to change our fuel source.
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:45 pm)Interesting article about this technology in the la times:
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/29/business/fi-rocketdyne-solar29
Personally I’d like to see more done with geothermal. It plays to the strengths of the oil company geologists, which is a good thing.
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:47 pm)LOL, methinks a lot of us feel the same way about the song & dance.
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 18th, 2009 (11:50 pm)How much AER would you want?
40 miles AER already covers 80% of daily driving. Slow charging at work (for those that really need it), would cover another 10%. That’s 90% of current gasoline usage.
And if the goal is to eliminate foreign oil, then eliminating the remaining 10% of gas usage is not the highest priority, as this represents only 4.4% of our total oil consumption.
The United States imports around 2/3 of the oil we consume. Oil consumption breaks down roughly as follows:
• 44% gasoline (mostly for passenger vehicles)
• 17% diesel (mostly for heavy duty long distance travel)
• 5% jet fuel
• 15% fuel oil (home heating and industrial)
• 19% other (petro-chemical, plastics, fertilizer, etc.)
So it’s obvious to me that we need other solutions in addition to plug-ins. These would probably include:
• Ethanol from non-food sources ( http://www.coskata.com )
• Bio-diesel from algae ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ih-DLurcZA )
• More domestic oil production (stripper wells, oil shale, tar sands, offshore drilling)
• Conservation/Efficiency
• Convert homes away from heating oil
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:01 am)Thanks!
Good point.
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:09 am)Nite all. See you tomorrow (actually later today!).
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:11 am)Granted nothing is Free as you say. I used the word in the sense that solar and wind are free to use without deminishing any natural resource. I probably should have stated it differently but I did get you to make a comment which is adding to the discussion: positive information on issues we are all passionate about.
Solar towers are one more good means to generate electricity and should be used where the spaces needed are available. I am looking at a future where home owners will be able to generate their own electricity needs. PV is becoming cheap enough to be competitive with utility generated electricity.
Here, in Texas, too much dependence on coal is partially being replaced by wind power. Texas is a leader in production by this means. Throughout the U.S., new locations to set up wind farms are being decovered; look at what Rhode Island is doing with wind turbines off the coast, and Ohio has found that wind turbines in Lake Erie off of Cleveland have sufficient wind speed to be an economical source of electricity.
Solar and Wind Power have far less negative impact on the environment than other choices. They are the abundant sources of energy for the future. Power plants and home use are easily implemented and do not take the long times to build out. IMHO, these are the sources of power that will be utilized in the near future. A number of bloggers here have talked about there solar setups and how they will benefit further when they own an electric vehicle. They are already ahead of the game. Just like range anxiety, they no longer have supply anxiety from raising utility prices, and dependence upon the utility company. They have the freedom that these “free” sources of energy give them. We will still need the power companies and the grid to equal out distribution for when sun light is not available to power those solar towers or home solar arrays, but home solar will augment the power on the grid in a cost effective way. It is one more means of generating the electricity we need.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:26 am)I have mentioned Raser Technology here before but in regard to its Symetron motors and electrification of trucks like the Hummer and GMS Sierra.
They are also into geothermal plants!
http://www.rasertech.com/geothermal/projects-in-development
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:49 am)No way is a $7,500 system going to cut it for a full size truck being used for more than a grocery getter. Just because the system exists doesn’t mean that it will provided any utility for the application.
At full load a full size pickup combination with a trailer can approach 7 times the weight of a typical hybrid car. This means power must be upsized quite a bit and storage needs to go up 7X. Doing that isn’t cheap.
-1
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:49 am)Not at all; GM has been extremely evasive about a number of things. What IS the CS mode fuel economy? Have we gotten a straight answer from GM? No.
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:49 am)The figure for percentage of the driving population only applied to passenger vehicles, light trucks, and SUVs. There is also another segment of the transportation industry that you must consider; hte large transport truck which move produce around the country. The mix is about 50/50 now. So we need to address the other half of the problem.
Your list of solutions should include solar and wind power! These, IMHO, will be the choices of the future as I have mention here before. The other solutions, you mention, are also valid. Conservation is not one that is often mentioned but is probably one of the most important among those you list. A good example that I saw while in Niagara Falls, New York some years ago, is the Hooker Chemical Building downtown near Niagara Falls. It had a shell off glass built around an inner structure to capture heat from the sun. This heat was stored in tanks below ground so it could be used in the later hours of the day. A rather cool building back in 1980! The conservation effort does not only entail proper insulation of our homes, offices, and factories but more efficiently built structures as indicated in the example, and utilization of the sun to generate electricity through solar arrays on roofs such as major corporations have installed on their offices. Just as we have seen in resent years those solar arrays on the business’s roof, so can home owners take advantage of the technology which is making advancements in efficiency at time passes. Home construction companies are beginning to sell homes with the solar option. As well as building homes that conserve energy they also offer means to be self sufficient. It’s the wave of the future!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. Hope that my friend Tagamet reads this tomorrow.
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:58 am)Larger inverters tend to be lower in frequency to help with efficiency. The sweet spot considering both motor losses and switching losses puts the number around 2kHz to 5kHz.
I can clearly hear the ones in the Prius and the Escape, and my hearing has degraded to where the top end is close to 12kHz now so they are definitely sub 12kHz.
I’ve hear comments about how quiet the Volt is so it may have an inverter above audible range.
I miss the cool sound effects of switching frequency locked to motor speed. This is necessary at low switching frequencies to prevent 3rd harmonic problems in the motor. As the motor speed increases the switching frequency will increase and then jump back down as a new multiplier is chosen. Early AC driven subway trains had systems like this.
Dec 19th, 2009 (3:52 am)I meant focus was on nothing but the spotlight, neglecting all else. That went on for years.
As for transparent, the song & dance to evade a straight answer about CS mode efficiency is going to drag on for how much longer?
+1
Dec 19th, 2009 (7:54 am)The fact that they haven’t released *one* stat that you’re interested in, hardly tarnishes their record of transparency (or veracity). Does Toyota send you every fact that you are curious about *months* before it’s release?
It’s a really tough sell for a Prius/Toyota advocate to bash GM for a lack of transparency.
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 19th, 2009 (8:11 am)The mix is actually closer to
• 44% for passenger vehicles, light trucks, and SUVs
• 17% for large transport trucks which move produce around the country
• 39 % all other oil consumption
But there is no battery technology on the horizon that would work for this 17%. Long distance, heavy duty transportation will continue to require liquid fuel.
So that’s why I mention ethanol from non-food sources, and bio-diesel from algae.
By the way, 95% of the oil that we pump out of the ground came from ancient algae.
Plug-in vehicles would include all sources of electrical power.
+1
Dec 19th, 2009 (8:41 am)Including modern nuclear! JMO, but a passion.
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 19th, 2009 (9:08 am)This “nightmare” scenario seems to be in your cache.
We have had this discussion before, but if you want to put a lid on quick charging because you believe it is dangerous, I will point out the fact that today, many things you do would have been considered dangerous in the past.
Walking across a bridge could be construed as dangerous. Standing under of beside a skyscraper with thousands of tons of concrete and steel would be dangerous. Opening your garage door is dangerous.
Engineering has solved many of these “dangerous” scenarios to make them safe and reliable. Why do you want to keep espousing this “run for the hills” dialogue every time it comes up?
I am not questioning the fact that quick charging can be dangerous, with what we know today, but todays problems may become tomorrows solution.
Lets not just use scare tactics on idea today, without knowing what some brilliant engineer may design tomorrow.
——————————————————————————————–
The mere formulation of a problem is far more often essential than its solution, which may be merely a matter of mathematical or experimental skill. To raise new questions, new possibilities, to regard old problems from a new angle requires creative imagination and marks real advances in science.
- Albert Einstein
——————————————————————————————–
Dec 19th, 2009 (9:41 am)Well said! I’m sure that the idea of putting an explosive fluid inside a vehicle and then having a series of controlled explosions drive it down the road was a little hard to grasp at the time too (though the first car was electric, gasoline soon followed).
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 19th, 2009 (9:45 am)GM promoting 230 MPG without any information as to how that was actually achieved contributed heavily to the problem… many, many people are interested.
This is exactly what we mean by song & dance. True, lots of other information is shared, but not a fundamental detail… the very thing that makes Volt unique… turning potential advocate into basher.
How can we support what we don’t know?
Dec 19th, 2009 (10:08 am)I guess that some of us are a lot more tolerant of ambiguity than others. Your post seems (to me) to say that you would be a Prius basher since they don’t release *any* fundamental details until the wheels are nearing the road.
Personally, I find it effortless to support the Volt and anyone else that’s going to move us toward the electrification of transportation. I’m sorry that you lost that struggle.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 19th, 2009 (10:52 am)What does support mean?
I haven’t seen much effort beyond daily blogging.
Sorry, the reality of penetrating deep into the mainstream requires that push, not settling for ambiguous references and waiting.
Dec 19th, 2009 (10:57 am)I’ve been calling radio talk shows to talk about the Volt and have tried to get Lyle some more exposure.
Other than your Prius site, which apparently doesn’t count as “support”, what have you done?
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 19th, 2009 (11:08 am)Why would a collection of photos and years of data along with downloadable educational materials not count?
And what about all the research and information exchanging on forums not friendly to Prius or hybrids in general?
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:00 pm)Sorry, you can’t have it both ways. Either this site (and yours) are support, or they are not. Do you really want to get into comparing how many unique individuals visit both sites each month? I seriously doubt it.
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:00 pm)I disagree. In the field of engineering, some things are just inherantly dangerous.
As a comparison, you have to do special things to gasoline to make it explode, and it’s relativly easy to prevent that from happening. In the movies we see car explosions all the time, but the fact is that this rarely happens in real life. Gas tanks have baffle screens to prevent this.
But connecting a half-million watt wire to a car that that has snow dripping all over it, that’s just inherantly dangerous.
-1
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:18 pm)Why should Toyota be transparent? They have competitive cars to sell today. GM has to fake transparency because they got nothin’.
-1
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:19 pm)And it’s better to be opaque than deceitful. 230MPG? Really? I can put 5 gallons of gas in it and drive 1,000 miles? No? So, 230mpg is a lie.
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:20 pm)Haven’t you noticed that the discussions hear come to a close within a few days and much of the valued info within becomes extremely difficult to find & reference later?
Haven’t you noticed that curious surfers don’t participate in blogs or forums but gobble up detail on websites?
A website serves a different audience and different purpose than a daily blog. They compliment each other. No wonder there still is not a Tech-FAQ or anything permanent to draw the curious here.
As for individuals & hits, how many stay or leave stuff they can spread offline? Growth is the key.
Haven’t you noticed how fundamental questions still have to be addressed routinely? That’s something a website can do to prevent the burden (off-topic posts) in daily blogs.
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:21 pm)LOL, I always get a chuckle out of your posts. Thanks and keep them coming.
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:24 pm)Thanks again! (g)
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:32 pm)Let’s just agree that we disagree. I’m not going to get through your personal bias and you won’t get through mine. It will all become a moot point when there are Volt’s in people’s driveways and they join the Prius in diminishing our dependence on foreign oil.
I’ve supported the Prius all along and have done nothing to try to bash it. I’m a mental health professional and *I* have a hard time understanding your need to bash the Volt.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:35 pm)Since they are not making bold promises, there is no reason to. A game-changing car is great if it actually changes the game. But to do that, high-volume sales are needed before the competition.
With Prius production growing to 500,000 worldwide annually and the plug-in feature just an option, it’s hard to see Volt as anything other than another choice. And what’s wrong with being a contributor to the plug-in market?
Think about the number of Li-Ion cells that will be produced. Think about the sales potentional and business risks. Think about the pack capacities.
Dec 19th, 2009 (12:48 pm)Agree to what?
I say more needs to be done.
Too little, too slowly continues to be a problem.
+1
Dec 19th, 2009 (5:42 pm)Of course its real, the only caveat is that it will take you 20 days to drive those 1000 miles with those 5 gallons (and you have to recharge it every day).. its that so hard to understand?, there is more than one definition of MPG.
Dec 19th, 2009 (9:15 pm)That is precisely what I mean about more.
With so many asking for an explanation of how that value was derived, a webpage with that information should already be available.
Where’s the misunderstanding prevention? Reacting is an old GM behavior. Proactive should be the theme now.
Dec 19th, 2009 (9:27 pm)(Post removed by author)
Merry Christmas,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 20th, 2009 (11:32 am)Right now, The Mailbu already gets 33 Mpg, & the new Cruze will be near 40, without hybrid.
I don’t see why the new BASII system in a new cruze wouldn’t give 45, & a 40MPG Malibu is a REAL possibility…
If they take a current 33mpg Malibu, add BASII, low resistance tires, shave off some pounds (Fiberglass Trunk Deck ect) , you would get at or near 40Mpg … Change the engine to a 1.4L Turbo on top of that …….
A Malibu is a massive family sized 5 passenger sedan as compared to a Prius, & if you can get 40Mpg in that type car it will be a killer pproduct!
Dec 20th, 2009 (12:51 pm)How would an ASSIST hybrid with only a single small motor compete with a FULL hybrid using two motors, with the traction one significantly larger?
Knowing where both the input & output electricity come and quantity available for the different types of non-plug hybrids is yet another example of support shortcomings.
-1
Dec 21st, 2009 (12:42 pm)A big mistake, IMHO. How sad.
Dec 22nd, 2009 (2:53 pm)[...] report on GM-Volt.com says that the automaker is now focusing on plug-in hybrids as well as on electric cars like the [...]
Dec 27th, 2009 (2:35 pm)it is not the actual design They dropped the hole program so writer of the article used a prius for the pic.
Jan 16th, 2010 (1:51 am)If battery chemistry such as Lithium-Air (or other) becomes economical and feasabile I think that large transport trucks could be a possibility to go electric. Of course this would problably require a 1,000 KW/h (usable) battery pack but that can easily be recharged within the 10 hour mandatory rest period at truck stops.
Of course like everything it all comes down to ROI which means gas prices need to increase. The frieght industry wont try to pursue the possibility of alternative fuels until gasonline becomes a crutch. I am not for raising taxes, but dammit increase the gasoline tax.