[ad#post_ad]On Monday Toyota officially announced the launch of the plug-in version of its 3rd generation Prius, calling it the Prius Plug-in Hybrid. Leasing will start immediately.
Deliveries of approximately 600 units will take place throughout the first half of 2010 in Europe, the US, and Asia. These will be offered by lease to selected fleet programs, and not consumers.
The car is equipped with a 5.3 kwh lithium-ion battery pack and has an all-electric range of 14.5 miles. Top speed in EV-mode will be 62 MPH.
The car will use its 1.8 L gasoline engine whenever power demands are high right from the start of operation, which is different that the Volt which will use electricity only for all driving needs in its first 40 miles of operation.
Toyota reports the car averages 134 MPG on the extremely conservative Japanese JC08 test cycle, not taking charging into effect.
Toyota plans to use the learnings from the fleet testing to develop a retail production version of the vehicle, and will begin selling and mass producing them in 2011.
According to Toyota’s Executive Vice President Takeshi Uchiyamada, Toyota aims to sell “tens of thousands” of plug-in cars globally each year.
Pricing is unknown but Mr. Uchiyamada said it will be “affordable.”
A less expensive smaller pure electric car will also go on sale in 2012.
Toyota’s lithium ion batteries will be made through a joint venture with Panasonic.
Toyota states the car can be recharged from a standard electric outlet.
Source (Bloomberg) and (Toyota)
This entry was posted on Monday, December 14th, 2009 at 10:20 am and is filed under Competitors, PHEV. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+13
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:30 am)Great news. Not a Volt but upping the MPG for all cars is a welcome development.
-10
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:32 am)(click to show comment)
+8
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:36 am)Very little info. How about Price?
+7
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:39 am)Hm… how attractive this is is going to depend on what he means by “affordable.” Because 14.5 miles range means I will probably be using oil all the time, since I live in the ‘burbs and more often than not I go more than 7.25 miles away per trip…
Oh, and it’s -10 points in my “Pros vs Cons” book if it still looks like the Prius now.
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:41 am)Apparently affordable by executive vice presidents
Anyone has any info about the pure electric car mentioned?
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:09 am)I drive 16 miles to work one way. 9 miles of that is a 55mph county road, 5 miles is 65 mph highway, and 2 miles of in town driving.
Why does the EV limit have to be 62?! Surely they could have bumped it up to 70 to at least make it highway capable.
Still, this will be a perfect commuter car for many.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:11 am)Well Toyota dropped the other shoe while GM is singing and dancing, it will be interesting if Hymotion offers an extra pack for more range.
My guess.. cost of lithium battery is $5k minus cost of present nimh battery $2500 so the extra cost will be $2500 for the plug in version.
My other guess is that Hymotion will start offering a plug in kit for the 2010 Prius a lot sooner than 2 years..
+5
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:13 am)Most of the highways I go on have speed limits of 55 and I’m the rare person who doesn’t go 75 down them so for me the 62 cap works pretty decently. 16 mile AER doesn’t help me as much as 40 but it’s a big start. 16 is about 3/4 of my average commute if I don’t do much else that day. And I’m guessing it won’t take 8 hours to charge… Might be a good middle ground.
Although I, too, hope it doesn’t look like the other Priuses but I know I hope in vain.
+21
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:15 am)Wait a sec… I thought it was Toyota’s fuel efficient technologies that left all the other automakers playing catch-up?
My, how the tables have turned…
+4
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:15 am)I would think the price of the plug in Prius will be several thousand less than the Volt. So this vehicle might be a good fit for some people’s budget. Does anyone know if this new plug in Prius will be eligeable for any new tax credits? We have a gen. 2 Prius now with 90,000 Miles with no problemsincluding floor mats. Plug ins, erev’s, bev’s, ev’s it’s all good and going in the right direction.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:17 am)Battery pack with 1/3 the storage of the Volt — at 1/3 the price??
Probably not a significant premium over the current Prius’ starting price of $22,400. That would be a significant advantage over the Volt. Assuming $3K upcharge for the pack and $2K for other changes to the basic Prius — would expect it to start at $27,400.
Toyota has proven technology and a nationwide network of dealers in place that can support the “Hybrid Synergy Drive”. The plug in Prius should much more readily available than the Volt for a few years — just the sort of head start that could end up pulling in early adopters and limiting the Volt’s appeal outside of California (where it and the Prius will launch close to the same time).
+6
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:18 am)Good competition! Though the Volt is still my number one choice.
a) available sooner
b) greater EV only mode
c) don’t have to feather the pedal to keep it in EV mode.
+6
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:27 am)From now on, we will be seeing the gradual shift to plug-in hybrids and BEV’s. The shift is inevitable, but still gradual.
+6
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:28 am)One of the things about driving a Prius is that the car’s ergonomics are set up to really encourage you to take it easy. I think they intentionally made the engine noisy at high power settings to discourage you from mashing the pedal, and it feels like they have a variable resistance spring on the accelerator — also to discourage you from mashing the go-pedal. And the big MPG gauge also discourages you from driving fast.
Of course, this kind of manipulation will really piss off some drivers — especially drivers who identify with sporty cars. I posit that they probably should save their money for a car that they would like — there are *lots* of other ways to save fuel that are more effective than getting 50mpg, like living close to work. I live 2.5 miles from work, so 2.5 miles * 2 / 10 mpg is smaller than 2 miles * 2 / 50 mpg. In other words, if you life 2.5 miles from work and drive a Corvette, you’ll use much less fuel than a Prius-driver who lives 20 miles away. And, if you really enjoy driving sports cars, you’ll probably be happier, too. If you walk to work and drive the Corvette on weekends, you’d be even better off.
In other words, the 62mph top-speed for the electric probably won’t be much of an issue for a typical Prius driver. Also, drag increases at the cube of velocity, so the electric motor would probably to be much more powerful to get to 70mph. It looks to me like Toyota’s culture is one of constant and incremental improvements, so they’re not going to be doing many moonshots. These two cars really seem to reflect tortoise and hare mentalities of Toyota and GM (respectively). Fortunately the hare appears to be on the move right now — and there’s a good chance that many of us will get a really nice car out of it.
+15
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:30 am)I’m starting to get sick of these misleading mpg numbers.
Can’t we just get miles in ev and miles per gallon after battery depletion.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:31 am)I guess Toyota’s strategy is to be vague since GM got into hot water estimating a price ahead of time. Perhaps Toyota will also be considering the cost of battery replacement in-warranty?
+3
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:32 am)Hmmm…one man’s trash is another man’s treasure. Toyota “crap” sells quite well. If the Prius PHEV is “priced nicely under $30K”, the Volt will be competing with a less capable, but more than likely significantly less expensive vehicle (I’m guessing $5-10K even after tax credits for both).
Also the Prius has an excellent track record for 10+ years of reliability (started selling in Japan in 1997).
Question for buyer’s…Is the extra 15-30 miles of EV range worth the price difference? What is actual real world difference in EV range? Should I buy vehicle a 1st model year EREV with no previous platform vehicle?
I like both vehicles…and owned vehicles from both comapnies (1 Toyota and 3 GM). But as we get closer to the Volt release date, I wonder if the Volt will be considered “leap frog” tech in November 2010.
May the best car win.
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:33 am)“A less expensive smaller pure electric car
will also go on sale in 2012.”
IMHO, that’s a little late in the game. I bet they push their BEV out further so the Prius can get a longer showtime.
Either way, it’s a welcomeed thought to move cars to a highr MPG and or Plugin/BEV……BRING IT ON!!!!
+5
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:36 am)lol….
I agree!
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:39 am)I predicted the plug-in Prius from Toyota a long time ago. Shot down by Statik if I recall correctly. A necessary counter move to the Volt. They would have never done it otherwise.
Could be serious for Volt if Toyota suddenly uprate the battery to 50miles for $12000 dollars less than the Volt. Just because they announce 13mile range does not mean they will stick to it. As I recall the initial plug-in range was 7 mile and everyone laughed at it. If I was a GM exec I would be nervous about this.
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:42 am)The more the merrier, when it comes to electric cars, whether EREV or BEV or PHEV. This PHEV Prius won’t appeal to a huge amount of drivers, but for drivers that drive less than 20 miles a day and seldom drive on interstates, this could be a heck of a car if it sells under $33,000. Since the battery is smaller, it will probably only get $3000 of the federal tax credit, but I would love to hear from someone who has the bill in front of them.
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:42 am)Sheez!.. its just a standard 2010 Prius with a larger battery, I dont think you will have any trouble figuring out what the mpg is after the battery is discharged.
+19
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:45 am)______________________________________________________
I can plug-in the Volt at night and drive to work and back without using gas…that makes sense to me.
I can plug-in the Prius at night and drive 2/3rds way to work without using gas provided I drive below highway speeds…that makes no sense to me.
I’ll take the Volt.
_____________________________________________________
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:45 am)Just another quick thought. Volt versus Prius could be the new Frazier versus Ali.
PHEV wars 2011. The question is which one is Joe Frazier?
+15
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:45 am)10-88. No Toyotas at my house.
LJGTVWOTR!!
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:47 am)The only other number I would like is the amount if Kw to recharge the battery and the cost to charge a fully depleted battery.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:54 am)I don’t think the Prius has room for such a large battery. I recall reading about something like a 9K premium for the plug-in Prius.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:56 am)This great for competition and even better for the consumer.
I know most people here love the Volt and hate the Prius. Whatever. It’s more important that we have options for when the petroleum hits the fan.
With a little planning and moving closer to work, most people can just about eliminate their gas use with EITHER car. That’s what’s most important.
+3
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:59 am)At least this new Toy will only be able to runaway on its own up to 62 mph. Unlike some of the high speed runaways of other Toys.
Just being a smart ass today. I could not help it.
Dec 14th, 2009 (12:02 pm)______________________________________________________
From Lyle’s Post:
“…Toyota reports the car averages 134 MPG on the extremely conservative Japanese JC08 test cycle, not taking charging into effect…”
———————
134 MPG w/o a plug-in charge???
______________________________________________________
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (12:03 pm)So we have the contenders (to name just a few). It will be very interesting to see it all play out in the next few years:
Hybrids: Will the Prius continue to evolve with bigger batteries, but claim the lions share of the market because they can offer the most affordable car?
EREVs: Will the Volt make hybrids obsolete as battery technology improves and the price comes down?
Pure EV’s: Will the Leaf and Tesla’s lower priced EV’s pave the way to eventually making all of the above obsolete?
It will depend on a number of factors:
Advancements in battery technology
Charging infrastructure
Oil prices
Incentives
Stay tuned!
+4
Dec 14th, 2009 (12:10 pm)A few observations:
1) The Prius’ power electronics and motor only have to be sized for 62 mph. Everything does not have to be sized for 100 mph. Does that mean it can’t go that fast? No. Why? Because the two power systems are additive. The power systems on the Volt are NOT additive. Thus, they can both do the same speed but the Prius does so at much lower cost.
2) When going out on the highway, BOTH cars will be using their ICE in a very short amount of time. Do the math. Let’s assume you don’t live right next to the highway (if you can buy a Volt, you wouldn’t need to). Thus, you will burn some energy just getting to the highway and up to speed. Now, you are at 70 mph. How long do you think you have before the Volt has to turn on the ICE. I’m guessing in less than 15 minutes. At 70 mph you will need to switch in less than 30 minutes IF you lived at the on-ramp.
3) I think Toyota made a good choice by keeping the most expensive component as small as possible yet still get the benefit. Both cars will get over 100 mpg. Now that’s excellent!
Dec 14th, 2009 (12:12 pm)62 mph = 100 km/h, probably the number they were shooting for.
I wonder what the range is at 62?
Will the Prius run its engine in cold weather to warm up the cats before switching into all-electric mode? Does the current generation of Priii do that?
My understanding of the VOlt is that in cold weather the house power will pre-condition the battery so I will not have to burn a drop of dino juice on my AM commute.
+3
Dec 14th, 2009 (12:14 pm)I am sorry, but I still think the Prius just ugly…………..
And I’ll bet it doesn’t have a “sport” mode, which is a really big PLUS to me for the Volt…………..
Nut I also agree with Texas, the more options available to the consumers, the better for all of us…..
NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (12:23 pm)My estimate — If you plug in every night and drive normal/conservative, you’ll probably average somewhere around 80 mpg. If Toyota can keep the price under $28kish then I’d think the demand will be high.
Dec 14th, 2009 (12:43 pm)http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/72876-2010-prius-plug-in-60-mph-electric-vehicle-13-mile-range-1-5-hour-recharge-8.html
“message #75 4.1 miles per kWh, 68%SOC utilisation (3.6 kWh available)”
Toyota is using 68% of the available battery capacity and GM uses 50%.. must be a different type of lithium cell.
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (12:44 pm)I welcome another PHEV to the marketplace from another vendor. The more the merrier in the race to electrify the automobile.
The Japanese test cycle is recognized not to be as severe as the US test cycle, but triple digit mileage is nothing to sneer at, nonetheless.
The Prius PHEV demonstrates the benefits and drawbacks of the Parallel-series hybridization, versus the Series electric extended range design. A US fleet of Prius PHEVs would reduce US oil imports to about ZERO. A fleet of Volts would do even better,and taken with Bio-fuels, eliminate the need for Petroleum for the auto portion of Ground Transport.
With a smaller battery, and lesser electrification, it does manage to obtain mileage slightly over 100 mpge, (US test cycle), in a somewhat lighter car than the GM Volt EREV approach.
The VOLT EREV approach using more battery and an inherently more efficient design can obtain double the mileage,over 200 mpge, (US test cycle), but at a higher cost to implement.
This only affirms the results of the work done by Dr. Frank and his students at UC Davis. These were the first actual builders of all these various auto hybridization designs.
The Prius PHEV has the benefit of several generations of experience in building the Prius. There is less gain to be wrought from the design. The VOLT is yet to be optimized. Right now the Prius suffers no extensive cost penalty, over a conventional drivetrain, but that remains to be seen in the Volt.
Since the Volt kowtows to the artificial, ridiculous CARB requirements for battery life, there is simply a great reduction in cost when extended battery life, allows the size, and cost, of the VOLT battery to be cut by a third, by utilizing a higher percentage of it, as the Prius PHEV already does.
Reduced battery costs will allow that cost to be sliced in half, yet again, as battery mass manufacture improves. I expect that will remove any price impediment as a consideration, in a few years.
Which design will triumph? Let the market decide. Or does it even matter? The important thing is a valid method to eliminating the Oil ‘PRICE’ crisis.
+14
Dec 14th, 2009 (12:51 pm)Please, it’s a desperation move by Toyota.
They’re such uninspired copycats that they had to put the charging connector in the exact same place that the Volt’s is.
If you want cutting-edge technology and design you buy a Volt.
If you want yesterday’s tech warmed over and wrapped in the usual exciting-as-a-toaster Japanese design, by all means demonstrate to the world how lemming-like you are and buy a plug-in Prius.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (12:56 pm)Let’s see 75% of the population drives 40 miles or less, how many drive 14.5 miles or less? Probably a good 35% at least. I would say that for 1/3rd the population, the Prius’ 14.5 miles AER will be enough to drive gas free, 1/3rd will have to buy the Volt to drive gas free and the other 1/3rd who drive the most (like 100 miles a day) it might be a wash between the Prius and the Volt since the Prius may get slightly better ICE driven mpg but the Volt will have more miles with no gas.
It is certainly nice that Toyota will probably offer these everywhere whereas some of us in random midwest states could be waiting 5 years to even be able to buy a Volt.
Dec 14th, 2009 (1:05 pm)A lot of folks here seem a bit confused about the Prius. It’s been mostly plugin-ready since gen1, and Chinese conversion kits are under $1000. Toyota simply waited for battery prices to drop, since they prefer not to depend on government policy.
Public info is the current PHEV Prius has slightly beefed-up electric motors with changed gear ratios, uprated power electronics, and the new battery. It’s capable of highway speed and also much better acceleration in pure electric mode than standard Prius. Operation is identical to current models: Sport/Eco/EV Mode buttons.
Increased cost to Toyota was estimated around $1200-1800 at volume with the smaller lithium battery, figure $2000-2200 or so now.
They make Prius decisions based on the Japanese market, and only rich Japanese have garages or easy plug access; first PHEV released will not be a $22,000 basic Prius + $2,000 PHEV option, but instead a $34,000 luxury model that substantially undercuts the competition.
+7
Dec 14th, 2009 (1:24 pm)The Prius is ugly, too small and doesn’t even get me to my office on battery alone. Yes it’s cheaper but it’s also so much smaller. Plus for a company that said they would not offer a plug in, well I guess the Volt has them concerned. I don’t believe that they will have as much luck with their rush to a plug in as they did with the original Prius. GM has put a lot of time into this type of technology, similar but different from the original Prius design. I don’t for a moment think Toyota can mach the technology out of the gate.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (1:30 pm)I think this is great. The more options the better for everyone. I like the simplicity of the pure electric drive train in the Volt and the flexibility of its generator but the Prius is solid proven technology and for certain people will be a good fit. I suspect Toyota will sell a lot for the fact that they’re already well known for reliability and will probably come in quite a bit cheaper than the initial Volt. We’ll see what the price difference will end up being and of course for both vehicles’ success what gasoline prices will be in 2011 forward.
I’ll hold out for a Volt though, eventually I think it will be superior technology in every way.
Dec 14th, 2009 (1:37 pm)Agreed. I’m still not buying (or even being seen) in the current butt-ugly Prius body style.
+3
Dec 14th, 2009 (1:40 pm)For a bit more perspective, here’s the graph Toyota was looking at when they picked the range.
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (1:54 pm)I am with you on that…
I hope Ford adds a plug in to the Fusion also. I am sure they are considering it.
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:13 pm)AHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
Dude u crack me up. One would think that it’s the drivers responsibility to plug in the car so it’s proximity to the driver would be essential. Personally i’d b|tch everyday at GM if I had to walk all the way around to the other side of the car or have to plug in from the rear or step back to behind the passenger door to plug it in.
But then again that’s jus my Trailer park azz….
+3
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:14 pm)Glad to see that the VOLT is setting a higher standard for all others to follow. I seem to recall that Toyota was quite resistant to “plug-ins”, but I’m still glad their entering the market. Less usage of gas, the better.
That being said, I’d still rather buy American.
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:14 pm)I read somewhere (maybe it was GM dual-mode?) that the smaller battery would be fully discharged (down to min SoC) more often than a larger battery. Therefore, you are using the maximum amount of electricity each day. IOW, the added expense for the battery to go more miles isn’t used all the time.
I don’t see this as a bad design. For my wife’s driving (around 5 miles per day to pick up milk and kids), this would be a good thing.
The problem for me is the dorky looking ‘hybrid’ body design. If it looked like a Malibu or a Volt (or a 200C or Taurus), then, I would consider it.
It also would need a ‘sport’ mode which is actually easier for Prius since both electric and gasoline motors can supply traction power at the same time.
Until I can drive an electric, I won’t know for sure whether it will meet all my needs. Including the need for speed.
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:17 pm)lol….
I haven’t sat in a Volt to make that kind of comparison but I did drive a Prius rental and sat in a Honda Insight and the Prius was much more spacious. My 9yr old said it was cramped in the back of the insight. But he’s 9 so I sat back ther and sure enough, my testeees were smushed.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:20 pm)That sucks.. thanks for posting that graph, the battery size was chosen for the average distance of the japanese commute.. same as why GM chose 40 miles for the Volt. The plug-in Prius should be a good fit in Europe and Japan, eventually they will adjust the battery size.
I understand the reason you dont see plug-in kits for the 2010 Prius is because the aftermarket people have not cracked the CAN bus code yet.
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:25 pm)LOL
The Prius is classified as a midsized car, the Volt is a compact that can only seat 4 passengers.. thank god both are hatchbacks, I hate sedans. Both cars look fine to me, just get rid of those hideous decals on the plug-in Prius.
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:26 pm)That’s my price SWAG as well for the lowest trim model expected. This 14.5 AER will suffice for me and is within our “living within our means”. Although the 62mph limitations seems weird, I can’t really recall getting over 55 on the streets I commute on. Even if I have to take the freewya, i’m lucky to hit 65mph due to knuckleheads who don’t know how to merge or because some peeps think they own the road or even worse, some of the drivers need to get back on their water Caribou’s and off the road!
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:28 pm)OMG……lol
I was thinking the same thing. Why do they over decal like that?
Ditto for the Leaf.
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:37 pm)This was inevitable. Toyota’s PR image is based around the Prius. And they’re going to do what they can to maintain that. The plug in prius was an obvious step to take.
The ultimate success or failure depends on the price. Toyota’s costs should be a lower (smaller battery, fewer new parts). And Toyota, unlike GM, can afford to subsidize them indefinately.
On the other hand, I believe that the prius is still only made in Japan. And, unless they retool one of their plants or the yen really falls apart , they’ve got major exchange rate issues.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:50 pm)I’d love to see the PHEV Prius vs the Volt in a comparison test
Electric range — Volt
Interior — Volt
Acceleration — Volt
Handling — Volt
Looks — Volt
Smugness factor — Prius
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:57 pm)Why? because without the decals, you’d think it was a regular Prius.
…and therein lies the problem.
Dec 14th, 2009 (3:00 pm)Japanese rating of 14.5 mile AER means nothing, since Prius has a rating of 89 MPG in Japan.
In real life, Prius would be lucky to get 8 mile AER with EPA testing method.
Dec 14th, 2009 (3:05 pm)Laura M:
I read that Toyota will resume completion of their Mississippi plant and likely build the Prius there for the same reason you just mentioned—exchange rate. Expect to see Prii rolling out probably in 2011.
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/12/08/report-toyota-finally-ready-to-finish-u-s-plant-in-tupelo-mis/
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (3:10 pm)Competition is very good for the consumers. The Prius is a parallel-hybrid and the Volt a serial-hybrid. I expect the Prius will perform better with the ICE when the battery is empty, because it is lighter and there is no energy loss for making electricity because the engine can drive the wheels directly. The advantage of the Volt is the longer EV range, however it is much heavier and more expensive. Toyota also has a proven trackrecord with selling more than 1000000 hybrids. I think that the limited EV range of the plugin Prius has to do with the fact that they use the same room for the battery as the normal Prius.
+3
Dec 14th, 2009 (3:22 pm)You have to remember what this is. The Prius is designed to run on gasoline. The plug-in option is an after-thought.
Their normal non-plug-in Prius uses a NiMH battery. For the Plug-in option, they just use a Li/Ion battery of the same physical size and shape, which essentially doubles the electrical storage capacity.
Toyota could design a car with a bigger battery and a more powerful electric motor, but that would be a new car design, not an option for an existing car.
Note that Ford has talked about doing the exact same thing for their plug-in. It’s just an option on their regular hybrid.
So right now, there doesn’t seem to be any competition for the Volt. Specifically, there are no other cars that have the following basic features:
• runs on electricity or gas
• at least 30 miles of all-electric range
• built by a major car maker
• announced production date
This is a bad thing. Competition helps everyone, including GM. Without any real competition, getting EREVs to go mainstream will be a lot more difficult.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (3:23 pm)A plug-in Prius? Kinda like a VOLT?
Oh the sting the trolls must be feeling on their little cheekies from being b!tch slapped with that one.
Ha!
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (3:29 pm)Good info. I was wondering how they got 14.5 AER when earlier estimates were around 10.
-1
Dec 14th, 2009 (3:38 pm)Why would I care what someone els’e is driving or why would I care what someone thinks i’m driving?
Maybe it’s just me but why would I care what anybody thought of the car I drive? If that were the case I wouldn’t be driving my old 96 Saturn SL2 around with oxidized paint.
-12
Dec 14th, 2009 (3:53 pm)(click to show comment)
Dec 14th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Just a little comparison:
Volt AER said to be 40 based on getting 5 miles per kwh, and using 8 kwh. Prius PHV AER said to be 14.5 miles based on getting 4.1 miles per kwh, and using 3.56 kwh.
No one knows the fuel consumption of the Volt in charge sustaining mode, with estimates ranging from 60 MPG down to 30 MPH, and many hoping for about 45 MPH in the real world. The EPA says the Prius gets about 48 MPH, and some folks claim they get around 55 MPH.
The Volt price is unknown but is expected to be near $40,000. The Prius PHV is said to cost less than a Prius plus conversion kit. So if we start with a $22,000 Prius and add a $10,000 Hymotion kit, the Prius PHV figures to cost less than $32,000.
Next, the Volt will get the full $7500 tax benefit, whereas the Prius PHV is only qualify for about $3000, so a $40,000 Volt less 7500 will cost about $32,500 but the Prius PHV will cost less than $29,000.
How much less is unknown but it could be thousands.
The first year of production for the Volt is November 2010, to November 2011 and 8 to 10 thousand Volts are scheduled to be produced.
The first year of production of the Prius PHV will start sometime in 2011 – the exact date is unknown – and the expected production will be 20,000 to 30,000.
Dec 14th, 2009 (4:29 pm)The more electric cars the better, but i dont see myself bothering to plug in to get about 10miles of AER, and then still have to go to the gas station to fill up.
14 ~ 10 miles, is just not enough to hassel w/it for me.
Other’s may be fine w/that though.
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (4:29 pm)Must have been someone else. I’ve always been a backer behind the Plug-In Prius as being a eventuality.
Just as FYI on the prices,Takeshi Uchiyamada, who is the Toyota Executive Vice President (acting as the talking head) said that the ‘upcharge’ when it goes on sale in Japan will be less than a million yen…around $11,000 USD. Japan is more EV subsidy crazed than the US, so your probably looking at somewhere around a 8K bump here on top.
Random guess, I’d put it around $31,000-$34,000 when it lands here…and would it be eligible for a $2,917 in rebates.
Dec 14th, 2009 (4:29 pm)A little OT but I just watched that Volt “Dance” video….
LOL…AHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
I don’t have inet @ home so I didn’t see th post yesterday but dang, GM should get their money back for that.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (4:35 pm)ya know……
I always wondered WHY they are soo different. Why don’t they just collaborate and come up with one “Global” test or somethin.
Dec 14th, 2009 (4:41 pm)Japanese PHEV Prius pricing announced : $59,351.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?p=33994#post33994
+3
Dec 14th, 2009 (4:42 pm)Yep. In the US you’ll get 8-9 miles of AER. Reeks of desperation that they use the Japanese AER.
So let’s see, you’ll get 9 miles AER for maybe $3000 less than a Volt. As both of these vehicles are still predominantly aimed at well educated greenies rather than the great unwashed, I think Toy is the one with the glass jaw in this match.
Totally their market to lose, and they seem intent on losing it. But hey, maybe they’ll pull some 11th hour switcheroo and offer an upgrade that comes close to the Volt’s AER for an equivalent price. Then the smuggie greenies who secretly hate all things US will line up in droves. That’s what I’d do if I was Toy.
Dec 14th, 2009 (4:56 pm)I have a buddy of mine at UC Davis thats been working with after market plug-in Prius for several years now. I can tell that the cost of the Plug-In Prius will be well above $30k, thats not even a question. With rebates involved, the price will be about the same for both vehicles.
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:09 pm)Which came first? The outlet to plug into. Or the battery car that needed to be plugged in.
Woman not only buy 80% of new Prius. They do most of the day-to-day shopping.
A woman’s opportunity to plug in while she is shopping is a huge attraction. The longer she shops the higher battery level when she returns. Sears, Walmart, Costco, TJ Max, Marshall, Ross, Macy’s, Vons, Albertson’s, Walgreen… ect. It’s time to convert 5% of your available parking to “complimentary EV ready @ 120v”.
Daily cost per customer? About 25 cents per $50 gain in retail sales?
=D~
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:14 pm)I think he meant without taking the cost of charging into account.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:15 pm)I don’t see any reason why the plugin Prius will cost much more than a normal Prius. The car is basically the same and the battery is relatively small. So around 6000 dollars more seems reasonable. But maybe they will not start with a basic version.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:19 pm)Good find on those links.
I’m by no means a expert on this, but I believe this is a calculation based on the first 600 leases, as the government kicks back half the charge of the added EV/battery cost over the standard gas/ICE propulsion? I think it is a requirement to set a sale price…even if it is not actually being sold to get the incentive.
I don’t think this is a reflection of the ‘on-sale’/mass to the public price, the article mentions something about the price being less in mass production.
That 5,250,000 is also the out the door/bottom line, including tax and pre-rebate (1,320,000 yen) number on the early fleet leases. The adjusted number has to be somewhere around 3.5?
/anyone read Japanese well?
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:19 pm)Well done Toyota!
I sure hope GM has a car that will be able to compete with that plug-in Prius, and I hope even more that they’ll advertise as such.
Otherwise GM, you may very well be out of business
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:19 pm)I beg to differ. The process used @ UCD is a “Retrofit”. as opposed to mass production. To retrofit you have to pull out the current batt pack and/or power electronics and charging stuff and mount the new batt pack and power electronics as well as connect to the sys computer or CAN bus. 2 Totally different processes. Batt pack tech is the financially limiting cost factor not the implementation process.
Just IMHO.
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:21 pm)My spin of this article is that competition is *good*! There will be a market for both the Volt and the plugin Prius and frankly, I don’t think they will overlap too much. The idea that you’re going to start burning gas as soon as you accelerate too quickly bothers me a lot, but I’m sure it’s not a deal breaker for many.
I think Toyota has finally *read* the writing on the wall (electricity is the future of transportation) and is now playing catchup with a Volt that’s now in the fine tuning stage.
Best of luck to both companies.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+5
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:27 pm)Begs the question-
How soon till they release a song & dance to keep up with GM?
+3
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:32 pm)A few thoughts
#1. No matter what size of electric motor is used, the limiting factor may be the power output of the batteries. A top speed of 100 km/hour implies to me that the power evenlope of the batteries is the same as the non-plug-in Prius at ~ 27 kW
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/
This makes sense as it ensure they can use the same electric motor and same componets, cheaper. It is also a benifit as it perserves the life the batteries by reducing the C draw at the same Volt level.
The cost of this is that the electric motor can never supply more than 27 kW of power. A typical car will use ~ 30-40 kW peak accelerating at a normal rate from stop condition to 40 mph. Yes, even a normal driver can keep things slow enough to never require more than 27 kW of power from the battery, but I don’t think this is within the scope of the EPA testing cycles.
I conclude from this, that in comparison to the Volt’s expect 30+ AER in normal US driving without special percautions the Prius PHEV should be expected to have near 0 AER.
#2. People are funny. The Volt’s promised 40 AER makes them gasp, but they are ready to believe that JC08 result of 14.5 will be accurate for thier daily life. 14.5 JC08 –> ~12 (or less) EPA. Add in the same pessimism and you arrive with 8-10 miles AER range (which is practically zero in real world conditions without special driving procedures)
#3. Remember the power drain issues on the Volt? Regardless initial battery size, at the end of 100% EV range, the Prius needs to be ready for normal Hybrid Operation. If we assume this is 80% of the current battery pack size at ~1.1 kWh, this means that the minimum the PHEV can go down to is 1.1 kWh before getting out of EV mode. WHich in itself is making the assumption they are willing to battery into the ground –> sub 10% SOC to maintain normal Prius operation.
Conclusion. They are either handicapping the post EV operation, (IE, entering Turtle mode faster) or more likely, ending EV operation very early. My guess is that Toyota is naturally cautious and is likely running the batter from 1 kWh minimum to 4.5 kWh maximum with exit from EV mode around 2 kWh, leaving more like 2.5 kWh usuable -in EV mode-.
I think unless this is a cheaper option, that most people will not go for it. Your dealing with all the same limitations as a Prius. IE, always use gas (unless you Hypermile). Poor car-like attributes.
Hypermilers will probably love the car though. It can let them be gas free for probably more than 15 miles! And it will be alot more affordable than a Volt.
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:34 pm)That would be an incredibly large rabbit to pull out of their engineering hat – and when did they get to TEST it?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:39 pm)This link doesn’t give a price but tells you a lot of info about their PHV:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/conference09/pdf/phv_overview_en.pdf
I posted this in the previous article. I especially liked the info on using AC instead of DC during charging periods to air condition the vehicle. It shows information on how it saves battery charge before you finally turn the vehicle on and drive away. At that point the AC runs off of the battery pack. Pre-conditioning the cabin cools or heats up the vehicle allowing the battery to maintain temperature; the initial cooling or heating uses a lot of energy which would have a huge hit of the battery pack and lessen AER significantly. I hope that the Volt will have this feature.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:59 pm)The Volt’s 230 MPG number can be understated and conservative, as JohnK previously said.
According to The Car Connection, “The Prius Plug-in Hybrid has an electric-only driving range of about 14.3 miles and returns a claimed fuel economy of about 134 mpg.”
In my opinion, the Volt far surpasses those numbers. The Volt has an electric range of 40 miles, 279% more than the Prius plug-in. This electric range of the Volt fully covers most people’s commutes. Most people will burn more gas than they thought with the Prius plug in because simply, most people drive more than 14.3 miles very often. That realistic MPG is probably much lower than 134. While possible, 134 will be very difficult to achieve for normal drivers. The Volt, however, allows most driving commutes to be electric only. The Volt allows most people to have insanely high MPGs! It could be 1000 or 2000 MPG, who knows?
We have to keep in mind that all Volts will burn gas. It is simply because, as previously reported, the gas gets cycled from time to time to keep the ICE part of the car running smoothly. It probably isn’t much, but it’s something.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (5:59 pm)If GM doesn’t want ALL their thunder stolen, they better speed up the release schedule of the Volt. By the time it comes out at the end of 2010 consumers will already have the Prius, Leaf, Karma, etc to choose from.
Start cranking out Volts, because the train is leaving the station.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (6:10 pm)Let’s not lose sight of the fact that the Volt has to emerge as as close to spot on perfect as possible. It’ll do zero good to release it before that point. Having said that, I’m still pulling for Independence Day 2010!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (6:11 pm)I’m guessing that both Toyota and Nissan are chuckling at GM because the GM battery is so much more expensive than theirs. Until we find out that GM has put some serious engineering into battery environmental controls and keeps the duty cycle very kind to the battery. So what are your bets that a Toyota or Nissan battery lasts longer than 5 years? That has GOT to add to the cost of ownership substantially.
Dec 14th, 2009 (6:15 pm)Yea, but that graph is from data collected in JAPAN, not the US.
Dec 14th, 2009 (6:29 pm)Toyota is playing it smart. They have a known commodity and all they have to do is tweak the formula. GM is validating the market. And because GM has to charge a lot Toyota can raise prices and rake in the profits while GM has to tiptoe around until they have everything running smoothly and their development costs amortized. Both will probably do well. I HOPE they both do well. I hope that China does not by GM and THEN do well. Oh welllll. Siiigh.
Dec 14th, 2009 (6:37 pm)Have you ever noticed that there are always two or three burger joints close to each other? And 3 or 4 gas stations at the same corner. There is good psychology here. People tend not to buy unless they have a choice. So a choice of only one “good” thing means less sale of that thing than a choice of two or three things. So the second or third burger place actually results in greater sales for those that are already there. Then the three can duke it out for the best numbers.
Dec 14th, 2009 (6:38 pm)I agree that competition is good, but I don’t understand the conclusion that it will have a negative impact on the Volt going mainstream. I guess that could be the case if no one else *ever* made something competitive, but I doubt that that will happen. Once this puppy gets rolling, plugins and BEVs’s will eventually become ubiquitous.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (6:51 pm)Please stop talking about those fantastic MPG numbers. It does not make any sense if miles that are driven on electricity are being used for a calculation of gas use.
We only need the following numbers:
1. How big is the EV range;
2. Hoe much electricity is used per mile when driving on the battery;
3. How big is the range on gas;
4. How much gas is used per mile when using the ICE.
If you have these numbers every customer can do the math and calculate the use of electricity and gas in his own situation.
Dec 14th, 2009 (6:57 pm)Many of us here have said pretty much the same thing. The unknowns at this point are the size of the gas tank and the mpg in charge sustaining mode – both of which are needed to determine range.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (6:59 pm)Add……
5: Standardize on how you test for MPG or AER.
Having tests that differ from US, EU, Japan or China confuses the hell outame. I’m sure it does others too.
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:01 pm)Achieving 40 miles of range on a battery is going to cost more than 14.5 miles.
I see two big advantages in the Volt battery system besides traveling 3 times further gasoline free. The first is GM’s engineering focus on battery warming and cooling systems. I’m confident the T battery will be “happy” and live a long life. The second is the shape, weight, and placement of the T battery. As demonstrated in Lyle’s test drive along with about 5 others. The Volt sticks to the road and probably feels balanced in most load conditions.
The Prius is what it is. My guess is the out-the-door price (after tax credit) will be as follows:
plug In Prius $31,999 + delivery = $35,198
less tax credits = apx $32,600
plug in Volt $39,999 + delivery = $43,998
less tax credits = apx $35,498
About $3000 more for the Volt. I see this as a plus for GM and Detroit workers. Will GM sticker the Volt at $39,999?
=D~
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:03 pm)One little additional tidbit.. While talking about EV’s here at work a co-worker noted that a couple of people he knew that were driving hybrids got significantly lower gas mileage during cold weather. Not sure how that translates to a plug in EV, but with all of the protective conditioning on the Volt’s battery I’m thinking it will do well.
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:11 pm)I would guess that TMC would sell these only in top level trim, so don’t count on $22k plus more battery.
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:12 pm)Yes! All good examples.
In addition, when more suppliers make make more parts for electric drive cars, the costs go down and quality goes up. That’s how suppliers are supposed to work, by providing very similar parts to different car makers, they can use their specialized tooling and knowledge to maximum benefit. But if there is only 1 car that uses a certain type of part, then things move much more slowly. I believe this is what Fritz Henderson was trying to say here:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/10/29/gm-ceo-says-help-needed-to-achieve-mass-adoption-of-electric-cars/
Competition is a good thing. Lack of competition means things will move much more slowly.
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:19 pm)If I recall correctly, when the 2010 Prius came out, Toyota dropped the price to compete aggressively with the H. Insight. I can see them doing the same thing when the plugin Priuscomes out with the Volt.
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:21 pm)Great to have another anounced production plug-in. As many have already said, the more the merrier. Even with a very limited range, the plug-in Prius will fit a lot of driver’s well if the price is right (<$28,000 before tax rebates). This is the expected and smart course to follow to bring power from the grid to the Prius product.
Having said all that, it is a non-starter for me personally. It fails my criteria on more than one count and AER is not even one of them.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:23 pm)That’s actually normal. NiMh as well as LiMN & LiPo’s all perform not so well in cold. The Volt is protected from temps outside but also has it’s own cliamte control for the inside. This is only possible because of the high batt pack capacity but used for only 50% of it for driving.
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:30 pm)wanted to post it again..a good Toyota slideshow, pdf
note slide 2, no fricking infrastructure needed!!
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/conference09/pdf/phv_overview_en.pdf
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:31 pm)Since we’re guessing prices here, I’ll throw my hat in the ring.
It’s important to remember that the Prius plug-in is just an option on the regular Prius model, and this option can be combined with other options, just like any other car. So what we should really be pricing is the plug-in option, not the whole car.
Since Toyota is saying they don’t expect to sell many of these, I believe this will be a fairly expensive option. But since the only difference is to swap the NiNH battery with a Li/Ion battery of the same physical size and shape, add a small charger, and modify the software, we’re not talking about a lot of stuff here.
My guess – $5000.
-1
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:39 pm)Much has been said about the size of the Prius vs Volt. I did a search on dimensions for each and found these links:
http://gm-volt.com/full-specifications/
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1035108_plug-in-prius-statistics-revealed/page-3
From the info, there is only a few inches difference between the two on length, width, and height. In almost all other categories the Volt far surpasses the Prius. Top speed (100 mph vs 64 mph), AER (40 vs c12), electric drive motor power (150 hp vs 79 bhp) and torque (370 vs 207 nm) are a few. The Plug-in Prius merely increases the capacity of the battery ( as stated by an earlier blogger) to 5.3 Kw vs 16 Kw for the Volt. I believe that the battery size is about the same for the lithium-ion vs Nmhd, just more power than a standard Prius. And then the upgrade makes it plug-in too.
Considering everything said, the Volt is a much superior car. If the ultimate prices (2012) are comparable the Volt wins over the Prius.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:41 pm)By the way, the normal non-plug-in Prius MSRP ranges from $22,400 to $34,700, depending on trim level and options.
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:45 pm)Jus curious, what’s the combined ICE & Electric motor output for the 2010 Prius?
Anyone know offhand?
Found it: http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/specs.html
Hybrid System Net Power
134 hp (100 kW)
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:49 pm)Using the JC8 Japanese testing cycle the 2010 Prius gets 63.3mpg, compared to 48mpg EPA Hwy, so adjust by 24%.. so that 14.3 mile AER translates to 10.8 miles using EPA numbers.
Of course if you drive gently you can probably match the japanese results or even better them.
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:49 pm)Is the Prius’ top speed really 64???
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:50 pm)I wonder if the “Prius I” will be available as a PHEV for the Pat Q. Public. Currently that specific trim is only available to “Fleet” sales. That kinda sucks.
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:52 pm)According to this article it can go 100MPH…
http://www.slate.com/id/2169925/
So I would guess it’s much higher than 62mph. That’s the AER max speed.
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:55 pm)I figured that they’d cause a lot of accidents if that was their actual top speed. Thanks.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (7:57 pm)The Plug-in Prius doesn’t come out until 2011 or 2012.( depending on which new article you read).
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:03 pm)Still has that fugly Prius look that caries over to the plug in model, I see. The rest of us can be tree huggers without looking like we are tree huggers…
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:05 pm)my sisters Prius gets about 10% lower MPG in winter driving.
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:12 pm)In electric mode, 100 Km/h! I found a
several links that say 62 mph in electric mode. don’t remember where I saw 64
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/14/toyota-officially-launches-plug-in-prius-program-retail-sales-i/
Other good info on the Plug-in Prius can also be found here.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:23 pm)doesn’t this mean, JUST 99mpg?
Hybrid fuel efficiency 30.6 km/ℓ
Plug-in hybrid fuel efficiency 57.0 km/ℓ
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/conference09/pdf/phv_overview_en.pdf
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:24 pm)I hope you are right! Because I am not impressed with the plug in Prius!
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:33 pm)Hey Tag,
Currently on the aftermarket are three suppliers of “drop in” packs that I am aware of at this point. A two thousand dollar “drop-in”, a five thousand dollar “drop-in”, and a ten thousand dollar “drop-in”. The distances ER suggested seem fairly similar. There are several things to consider though, regarding consumer feasibilites. Some owners might be OK with their cars going only up to 38 and possibly “up to” 45 mph (slightly downhill?) if they are “in town” mostly (before switching on the ICE) (compared to what may be coming available from Toyota in three years or so at, what, $34,000(?) as described here above).
The electric motors may have an accelerated wear toward final lifespan in cases of hard acceleration much of the time, which might be a factor with these “drop ins”, but I’ve not scanned any yet with significant runtime hours after “drop-in”, which would be at least a thousand electric hours, or three years. Providing costing estimates for transaxle overhaul of the electric motors might be wise just in case. Making sure the owner is made knowledgeable about pending Toyota improvements toward the 62/64 mph EV state is pretty much a mandatory “FYI” for proper ethics before allowing anyone to commit toward a 38 to 45 mph “drop in”.
Also, the very easiest thing to do in parallel battery physics is to suddenly announce an option to go two or three times the currently-stated intended distance for more money. And, to also watch for that 62/64 mph to become 67/68 mph, which is potentially a whole different “last second” marketing ballgame for our 65 mph freeways.
So, no one ought to be surprised if those things happen over at Toyota.
Still, I’m positive that there will not be enough plug-ins to go around for at least 7 years.
-1
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:36 pm)Hmmm…Lemmings tend to indicate a large following because everyone else is following it. Hopefully you are not implying that the Volt should not have a large following.
Most car buyers are lemmings due to the advantages of a mass market. Any ICE vehicle is a lemming vehicle…like my lemming vehicle. Why? Fuel availability, maintenance/repair competition & availability, insurance rate, etc.
Somehow I do not think that a Prius Plug-in OR Volt driver will be considered a lemming. If a company can build a more affordable EREV/PHEV than an ICE vehicle, the lemmings will change direction.
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:41 pm)A hybrid where both the electric motor and the gas engine are directly connected to the wheels is a very different animal than a serial hybrid. Unless you believe that you can make an apple into an orange or vice versa by coloring its skin, each design has advantages and disadvantages. For short commutes a PHEV is a more economic choice. For longer commutes a serial hybrid is substantially better.
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:45 pm)Wouldn’t they need to do some significant software magic in order to do a “last second” surprise?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:47 pm)As it gets colder you have more drive train losses, the air is more dense, and the tires get stickier. (The wind frequently blow more in cold weather as well). So regardless of energy source you need more energy to go the same distance. In a conventional ICE car this means lower MPG. In an EV this translates into a lower EV range.
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:48 pm)not very impressed, but if I recall, didn’t Toyota say the plug-in car idea had no future, and it was only the conventional hybrid was the future. Now I see that they can’t deny the volt has changed the future of automobiles forever.
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:54 pm)I think a parallel-hybrid, with the gas engine directly connected to the wheels, is better when you drive long distances. It is more efficient because you don’t need to make electricity out of gas, which causes energy loss.
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:54 pm)You miss the point. It’s not a different model. It’s an option on the same model.
In other words, you can order the Prius with many different trim levels and options, and the plug-in is just another option.
As for looks, I think most cars are ugly. The only cars that look good are not practical for me, so looks have become unimportant.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:56 pm)More hardware than software magic which is why I doubt we’ll see this — the hardware magic will cost some bucks for very little benefit.
Two things to keep in mind are that the Prius can probably go 100 MPH and that the MPG results for the plug-in Prius have been disappointing low.
Dec 14th, 2009 (8:57 pm)I don’t think “software resetting” to go that slightly higher speed would be the difficult thing to do, it would be their warranty standards that would have to be reconciled with beefier motors and the cooling of those motors. In addition to far higher capacities to go that slightly higher 5 mph or so before the ICE needs to kick in some additive torque.
Don’t forget that the apparent CD-inconsistency was brought up in question by our highly-valued GM engineer guests here, which is a real “hold-back” when you want to try to represent that ER promise. Especially for when you are possibly desiring a complete range-fulfillment of a consistently true American freeway speed of 65 mph. (So following traffic will not become “miffed” at your 62 mph in a 65 mph zone, as many certainly would).
Dec 14th, 2009 (9:01 pm)These are a great points…and likely accurate based on current info. However, you forgot price.
Price – Prius
I’m glad that the Volt is getting competition. A bigger question…Is the 40 mile EV range a better market than a 10-15 mile EV range?
Dec 14th, 2009 (9:04 pm)This has been discussed here many, many times, and it’s not at all clear that a parallel-hybrid has an advantage. Yes, there are electrical losses, but there are also possible efficiency gains possible by eliminating the transmission and running the engine at a constant RPM.
But to concentrate on MPG in range extended mode misses the point. 40 miles AER will eliminate 80% of all gas use. There’s no way you can achieve that with higher efficiency. We need to migrate to a different fuel source.
Dec 14th, 2009 (9:09 pm)DaveG,
That’s as “nice ‘n concise” as I’ve ever seen it put!
Perfect for an ad message for GM marketing dept!
(Save it and Send it!!!!!)
Dec 14th, 2009 (9:19 pm)Your point is quite accurate. When talking about commutes I was assuming distances less than 100 miles. At short distances and at low speeds a PHEV plug-in can go the entire distance without the gas engine kicking on. So for commutes under say 10 miles both the plug-in Prius and the Volt won’t use any gas or spew any emissions, but you’ll be paying more for the Volt’s bigger battery pack. After this distance the advantage of the serial hybrid grows with each mile. After a commuting distance of 40 miles the Volt’s advantage begins to diminish. At some point the Prius would again be using less gas, though even at 100 miles the Volt would be using less gas than a Prius (assuming 35 MPG for the Volt and 50 MPG for the Prius).
Dec 14th, 2009 (9:23 pm)Engineering has actually quantified the benefits:
http://green.autoblog.com/2008/02/13/autobloggreen-qanda-peter-savagian-talks-about-studying-driver-be/
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (9:48 pm)I think the term AER is misleading here also.
The Plug-in Prissy cannot truly travel 14.5 (or 10 perhaps) miles without using some gasoline. It may go a steady 62 mph on a level surface without accelerating… however, on the acceleration ramp to 62 mph or when climbing an incline, the ICE is required. Therefore, this is what is referred to as a blended operation.
This is unlike the Volt, which can travel the first 40 miles without using any gasoline.
See page 23 of this link for more info.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/vehicles_and_systems_simulation/vss_05_duoba.pdf
So the EPA sticker for the Volt should be much higher than that of the Toymota.
Dec 14th, 2009 (9:58 pm)Seems like a good thing to me. It will be difficult to get a Volt for a while. Does this car qualify for the same tax credit? You may could get this car for 20k. That would be pretty attractive to a lot of people.
Does this put pressure on the price of the Volt?
Dec 14th, 2009 (9:58 pm)You cant say that, it depends on how fast you accelerate or how cold it is.. the new 2010 Prius has an EV mode switch and can accelerate at moderate rates up to 62mph on just electric power.. read one of the many reviews on the web.. and cut out the hatred, Toyota did a lot of the heavy lifting to motivate GM to spend the money on the Volt development.
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:09 pm)Give ‘em an A for effort.
Give ‘em a D for style.
They will sell a lot of them/
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:24 pm)Hey DonC,
Thanks greatly for providing me that link. That datum and conversation was right where my expectations were regarding “drop-ins”. I was surprised, however, of thier apparent limitations of actual gasoline-usage reduction (which is the whole point), to be somewhere apparently between only 20% to 25% as effective as EREV.
Very clear explanations of the methodologies as well.
Thanks again, DonC.
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:31 pm)The Prius would potentially be eligible for a tax credit proportionally smaller than the Volt, based on the # of KWh available in the battery.
HTH,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:35 pm)Sounds pretty anemic.
The main point is this: The Prius aims to use gasoline very efficiently. The Volt aims to not use gasoline at all most of the time. They are very different.
I have great respect for Toyota as a company, and the Prius in general. But when it comes to the plug-in version of the Prius, it just seems like they threw something together. The range is too low. The electric motor is under-powered. It just doesn’t make much sense as a plug-in.
By contrast, the Volt was designed from the ground up as a plug-in. The AER and electric motor power are both perfect for mass adoption.
I wish Toyota would design a plug-in from the ground up.
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:35 pm)Payback on either of them is dubious at current gas prices.. but many people buy cars based on emotional logic. If your goal is to stop using oil then 40 miles EV range is better suited to the US, 10 miles is better for Japan.. Europe is somewhat in the middle I think.
Japan is not a big country.
I personally am attracted to the simplicity of a BEV.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:44 pm)Amen on all counts!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:49 pm)Depends on your definition.. its only got 80hp worth of electric motors driving a 3000lb car.. the 67 Beetle had 54hp and it weighed 1800lbs, about the same acceleration I would guess. The 1980 diesel rabbit only had 50hp, similar acceleration.
You can always step on the gas if you need more acceleration with the Prius.
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:51 pm)Much of my drive cycle is urban, less than 10 miles round trip. The Plug-in Prius would seem adequate for my personal needs. So the question becomes, will the Prius PHV be sitting on my Toyota dealers lot before the Volt is sitting on my Chevy dealers lot?
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:53 pm)None of these comparisons take into account all the work GM has done to reduce drag. The Volt should slip through the air “quicker than a split lip”.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:58 pm)Not based on the usable capacity but the actual capacity of the battery, 16kwh for the Volt, 5.3kwh for the Prius plug-in (thus $2500 credit). They should proportionally increase that credit to up to 50kwh of battery capacity. If Toyota sells this option for $10k they are going to make a heavy profit.
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:59 pm)The reality is that it’s verrry hard for any electric car to compete with sub $4 gas ($2.19/g in my neighborhood today).
One of the biggest advantages for the Prius is the ability to “right-size” the battery. Toyota can just keep feeding in the battery kwh options (i.e. 5kwh, 8kwh, 10kwh . . . ) to adjust for rising gas prices. The volt design continues to look like there’s no capability to downsize its already (comparatively) sizeable 16kwh’s.
Dec 14th, 2009 (10:59 pm)Many (if not most) of the forum members here rank “payback” as a pretty low priority. We’re a very mixed basket of fruit, (on a lot of levels), but on this we’re fairly uniform.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:09 pm)BTW, all my pricing guesses are “after the dust settles” guesses. Some of these companies can (and will) charge all they can up front while the govt refunds are high and the technology is still “gotta have it” new.
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:09 pm)Funny, on the TV program “Men of a Certain Age” one of the major characters is an auto salesman and his father the boss made him take a hybrid (I think it was a Prius) as punishment for not doing well. The Prius was considered a dog, and his wife then got into a fight with the father which resulted in him getting to drive a Corvette instead.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:19 pm)The Li-Ion battery can handle more aggressive recharging. So, you’ll capture more electricity from braking.
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:21 pm)Don’t you mean “Is the 40-60 mile EV range a better market than a 10-15 mile EV range?”
Driving in a manner that will produce 15 miles AER with the Prius will yield about 60 miles AER for the Volt.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:22 pm)It fits under the false floor (below the level with the seats folded down) that is currently used for additional storage. Below that is where the spare tire is currently. So, it’s will essentially look just like the non-plug version.
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:25 pm)WOW! The Volt community greatly appreciates your unintended support.
+1
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:27 pm)How many can afford 40 miles of capacity?
14.5 miles will obviously cost substantially less, especially when placed in a vehicle already in high-volume production.
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:35 pm)Good question. I suspect that both the Volt and the plugin Prius demand will easily outstrip supply for at least a couple of years. Both companies should do very well.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:38 pm)The most significant thing about the plug-in Prius is that it will tend to “validate” the plug-in Volt in the minds of thousands of potential customers who might otherwise not consider a Volt. And with almost 3 times the Prius’ EV range (40mi vs 14.5 mi), an average person can easily appreciate the advantage of the Volt for daily commuting.
/The best location for a Burger King is right across the street from a MacDonalds ….it’s always best to offer people a choice (especially if your’s is the best of the two choices)
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:40 pm)Popular Mechanics test drives the Plug-in Prius:
2012 Toyota Plug-in Prius Pre-Production Test Drive
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4339705.html?nav=RSS20&src=syn&dom=yah_buzz&mag=pop
+2
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:46 pm)Better read all the info. Note how drawing more from Li-Ion is possible. Don’t assume or imply. And stop with the childish name-calling, people won’t take you seriously.
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:49 pm)It’s pretty intense interview; a lot to digest. The next few years of Pug-in Prius vehicles and Volts will give a good comparison. If what Peter states bears out then the Volt will be the better performer. The issue of the ICE being on a good part of the time for the Prius even when EV mix is available is an extremely important factor; the Prius PHEV will be using more gasoline than the Volt. It will be interesting to find out what the ICE range extender really gives the Volt in mpg. We know what the AER is; what we need to know is once the ICE range extender starts what does the Voltec drive train give in mpg. The study may show that an EREV will do better than a PHEV but that only explains why; we need mpg of CS mode. I am confident that it will turn out to be very good.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 14th, 2009 (11:50 pm)Ultimately, everyone wins from the push toward greater use of motors & electricity.
However, it’s the number of sales volume makes a actually difference.
Dec 15th, 2009 (12:04 am)The article puts the starting cost at $48,000 in 2012, IMHO, the Volt will be lower than the projected $40,000 by the time the Plug-In Prius comes to market.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 15th, 2009 (12:32 am)The cost difference between 40 miles and 14.5 miles will not be substantial! Were talking about pennies on the dollar here; electricity is cheap compared to cost of gasoline. They will be producing initial Plug-In Prius with an estimated price of $48,000 in 2012. By then the Volt will be south of $40,000, and being superior in all categories of performance will outsell the Toyota. I don’t see how, IMHO, Toyota expects this modification of the Prius to really sell in the number they expect.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 15th, 2009 (12:36 am)I think there is a question of where the spare tire will go!
Dec 15th, 2009 (12:46 am)I don’t know about that. I don’t think they would get any credit off of that, because it not for sale, but it for lease in the fleet.
Dec 15th, 2009 (1:17 am)Hopefully the price will not be the reputed $48K. At that price not many of these puppies will move off the lot. I’d think the top price at which these will sell might be $32K. Anything more than that and the regular Prius at $28K starts looking more attractive.
The new Prius body looks nice BTW. Seems like the silver is a nice color for it. Definitely an improvement.
Dec 15th, 2009 (1:20 am)As convenient as that would be, it doesn’t make sense. Driving in Japan and Europe is way different than in the US/Canada/Australia. A cycle representative for one region would be way off in another region due to different driving patterns.
Btw I just went to the LA auto show on Saturday. I know this has been said many times, but the Volt really does look a lot better in person. I doubted this beforehand but was happily proved wrong as the Volt looked quite good. The Converj was simply amazing as well. My favorite car in the show. It looked as good as many of the exotics, let alone the other luxury cars.
I will maybe post some pictures here sometime.
Dec 15th, 2009 (7:10 am)Articles have been loaded with incorrect & outdated information.
In this case, the 2010 plug-in model was what came with the huge price tag. So early in the game, it makes sense that the first few cost more.
Wait for the 2012 pricing, after the newest generation is well established and Li-Ion production goes from hand-built to machined.
+2
Dec 15th, 2009 (9:17 am)The placement is only obvious because GM went through design studies and did it first.
-1
Dec 15th, 2009 (2:31 pm)Because you might actually be able to buy one of these. Looks like the Volt will not be available to “real people” for several years.
Dec 15th, 2009 (9:00 pm)When will the insanity of using MPG with a plug-in hybrid end. This method of comparison is inaccurate, misleading, ….We’re smarter than this, aren’t we? Are you telling me than a plug-in hybrid that is rated at 100 MPG will get down the road 300 miles in a five hour period using only 3 gallons of fuel? All this effort by GM to make it right the first time will be negated if advertisements seem like smoke and mirrors.
There is the need for a standard unit of energy that is not limited to hydrocarbons. I have suggested the term “therm” before because it is an easy unit of measure to remember (100,000 btu). Use Kilowatts, megajoules, or something else…anything reasonable besides Miles Per G A L L O N.
Dec 16th, 2009 (12:36 pm)I know that there is very low probability that anyone will be reading this, but here goes:
Based on an article I read today on MSNBC.com ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34434424/ns/technology_and_science-future_of_energy/ )
A report from the national research council indicates “The battery pack for a car capable of going all-electric for 10 miles, like the plug-in Prius, would add about $3,300 to the cost, the authors estimated. They said the battery pack for a car that can go 40 miles without using gas, like the Volt, would add about $14,000 to the car’s cost.” Which means you would have to save a bunch of money on gas to get the investment back out.
Also of note, $3,300 amount above was close to my estimate of $3,000 in my post above. What a lucky guess!!
Dec 16th, 2009 (3:46 pm)I’m really glad Toyota is doing this, as they were denying the merits of a phev until the Volt looked like a real project.
Now their phev is a giant leap in the right direction. However, if I didn’t already own a phev Prius (which I love!), I would prefer the Volt. The Prius uses the gas engine for cabin heat, and also requires engine warm-up to heat up the catalytic converter, during the 14.5 miles, and beyond.
Dollar for dollar, both cars are probably pretty close (higher price for the Volt, but more EV miles and technology).
But I still give an “A” to both companies for going in the right direction.
=D~~~~
-1
Dec 18th, 2009 (10:05 am)I’ll take the Prius for at least $10000 less with greater reliability, and pass your broken down volt on the highway at 62 mph…