Dec 13

GM Says EEStor-Powered Chevy Volt Would be Possible, if EESU Was

 

eesu

[ad#post_ad]In the field of electric cars, besides the Chevy Volt, another topic has long been of interest to me, as well as many others.

It is the work of a small secretive Cedar Park Texas company called EEStor, Inc.

The company was founded by a man named Dick Weir who has longstanding experience and expertise in computer disc manufacturing.  He partnered with a man named Carl Nelson who has extensive knoweldge and experience with ceramic materials science going back to the 1950s.

Together they invented an entity known as the EESU.  This is a device composed of a scalable array of thousands of specialized supercapacitors.  Those super-capacitors, or components as EEStor calls them, would be manufactured using a specialized material called alumina-coated barium titanate.  This newly fabricated/discovered material has been shown to have a high electrical permittivity (ability to hold electrons) across a wide range of temperature. The number of components dictates the storage potential of the resulting battery. The EV prototype uses 32,000 components and can store 52 kwh.

In theory, these batteries could be built to virtually any size, and could even be used for grid-leveling and in fast-charging stations.

EEStor has partnered with a Canadian company called Zenn Motors who has provided millions of dollars in financial support to EEStor in exchnge for 10% partnership and rights to use the technology in electric vehicles.

Since forming in 2006, Zenn has been a manufacturer of low speed neighborhood electric vehicles.  They just announced they will cease those operations in April 2010 to turn their entire focus on selling EEStor-powered drivetrains, called ZENNergy powertrains to other OEMs.

The only problem is no known EESU has ever been publicly seen or demonstrated.

Furthermore the dates for its revelation have been slipping since late 2007 when it was first publicly promised.  The most recent and intense promise published is that the first devices would be delivered to Zenn this month.

“EEStor has publicly indicated an objective of delivering functional technology to ZMC by the end of the calendar year,” said Zenn spokesperson Catherine Scrimgeour told GM-Volt in October. “ZMC is confident in their ability to meet that objective.”

The world waits.

Why is this so important?

The vehicular EESU would hold 52 kwh of energy, in a package that weighs under 300 pounds, could be recharged in 5 minutes, and would not degrade over time.  The CEO of Zenn even publicly declared recently that 1 million charge-recharge cycles have been achieved in the lab.  More importantly, the EESU could be sold at around $100 per kwh, making it several times cheaper than lithium ion batteries. Thus the EESU would be many times better than lithium-ion batteries in every conceivable way

Too good to be true?  A lot of supercapcitor scientists think so.

“The bottom line on EEStor’s ceramic capacitor energy storage claims is that they are extrapolating linear performance on a parameter (permittivity) that is not linear. I.e. the electric field collapses at high voltage/high electric field strength,” says Ted Bohn, ultracap expert at the Argonne National Lab. “Or in simpler terms, the capacitance of the device is not the same at 6 volts as it is at 6400 volts.”

If EEStor has achieved the breakthrough they claim it could prove extremely disruptive to the lithium ion battery industry rendering them immediately obsolete.  It would replace batteries for cell phones, electronics, military applications, and electric cars including the Volt.

I often mention EEStor to GM executives when I get the chance. I recently asked Volt vehicle line chief Tony Posawatz what he knows about EEStor.

“I have heard a little bit,” he said. “Certainly the press releases are interesting, it causes you to take note and follow it.”

“The guys involved in it certainly aren’t a fly by night operation,” he noted. “Still some of the claims, knowing what I know, are way out there.”

Asked if GM could quickly swap in EESUs if they became available in exchange for the lithium ion cells in future Volts, Posawatz agreed it was possible though added “it would take couple of years.”

Will the world see an EESU by then end of this year?  Only 17 days to find out.

This entry was posted on Sunday, December 13th, 2009 at 7:57 am and is filed under EEStor. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 122


  1. 1
    D LO

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (8:06 am)

    Santa Clause is more real than EESU


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    Van

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (8:21 am)

    As has been said, many times and in many ways, the actual effect of the Eestor story is to inhibit investment in Lithion Ion battery production facilities. Could Eestor be the Trojan horse of Big Oil? If not, they are certainly useful.


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    Jim I

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (8:25 am)

    So stop talking about it and build the d***n thing!!!!

    Zenn is either really smart, or really dumb…. Only time will tell!


  4. 4
    Dave G

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (8:50 am)

    There are 2 questions here:

    1) is this EEStor technology real?
    2) if it’s real, would it make a huge difference?

    I’m going to go out on a limb here, and say that the technology is probably somewhat real, but I don’t think it will make a huge difference. Everyone assumes that if we had the perfect battery, then pure BEVs would be a no-brainer, but I am not convinced.

    First, let’s look at cost. The Volt’s battery pack costs around $8000. That’s for the entire pack, not just the cells. This figure was given by the CEO of CPI here:
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/profile-li-ion.html#more
    and then later basically confirmed by Bob Lutz here:
    http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/04/why-the-volt-will-cost-40000/

    Now remember that the U.S. government is giving a $7500 tax credit that is based on the size of the battery. So in the end, the Volt’s battery is basically free, at least for the first 250,000 vehicles. Why then does the Volt cost $32K after tax credits? Maybe there is something else that makes EVs expensive besides the battery.

    I believe the Volt is expensive because it’s new, and they basically haven’t gone through mass production long enough to get the cost down. And that’s true for all the parts, including the battery.

    As for EEStor, they are basing their volume costs primarily on the cost of raw materials, but we have to remember that this technology requires ridiculously high purity levels, a large amount of tooling, and a lot of brain power to make it right. A good comparison is the silicon chip that runs the computer you’re using now. These chips are made primarily from silicon. Silicon comes from sand. The raw material is literally dirt-cheap. Why then do silicon chips cost so much? It’s the cost of production, not the raw materials.

    As for the dream of fast charging stations everywhere, I believe it will stay just that – a dream. The battery is actually the least of the problems here. The power required to fast charge a large EV battery is huge, and that is inherently dangerous. And modifying our electrical grid to supply that much power to the fast charging stations, that would take billions of dollars and many, many years to complete. People always under-estimate changes to the infrastructure.

    And then there’s the issue of whether mainstream America is ready to give up gasoline completely for a pure BEV. I believe this is a very bad assumption. People like to have a choice, and liquid fuels will always have certain advantages over batteries.

    So in the end, I believe EEStor technology will be real, but at a significantly higher cost than projected. Meanwhile Li/Ion will be going down it’s cost curves due to mass production. So EEStor will be competing for cost in PHEVs and EREVs.


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    Tagamet

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:10 am)

    I’m rooting for EEStor, but then again I’m rooting for world peace and a $1000 BEV. Hey it’s Christmas, we should wish them well.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  6. 6
    nasaman

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:22 am)

    15+ years ago (when Dick Weir and Carl Nelson were allegedly working on improving the storage capacity of hard disk drives), I would have been skeptical that the 1 gigabyte drives of the time would be surpassed by the 1 terabyte drives of today —i.e, by 1,000:1 gains in storage capacity. Yet it happened, even though no one had access to the tools of nanotechnology available back then.

    Today, nanotechnology has achieved enormously-improved material purities (and many other properties) at sub-microscopic levels. EEStor has stated that the EESU data presented in Lyle’s table at the top is based on a permittivity of 18,500 of their barium titanate (BaTiO3) material. And they claim that an independent 3rd party has certified their material achieves a permittivity of at least 22,500.

    As a physicist, I believe that —IF EESTOR CAN ACTUALLY CONTINUE TO ACHIEVE THE PERMITTIVITY & PURITY MILESTONES THEY’VE CLAIMED IN PRODUCTION— a 52KWh EESU with properties similar to those shown in the table above is a distinct possibility.*

    *This also assumes Kleiner Perkins and other funding providers will continue supporting EEStor, even with continued schedule slippage


  7. 7
    Shawn Marshall

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:25 am)

    This is too appropriate – EEStor at Christmas. Maybe they reverse engineered the motive source for Santa’s sleigh.

    It’s a hoax like CO2 global warming. Don’t be alarmed, if global warming is still happening, it’s good for you.

    Lyle, my friend, if they had any such thing, why would they go to Zenn? It’s too crazy.
    Happy Holidays to all Voltiacs and other EV enthusiasts.
    We need Nuclear power and we need it now.


  8. 8
    Baghead Brennan

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:27 am)

    Lies Lies Lies By Dick Weir, Tom Weir, Ian Clifford, And Pumping Of EESCAM by Baghead:
    http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3815

    Favorite Quotes (BS) From EESTOR/Zenn Story :
    http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2999


  9. 9
    Paul

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:32 am)

    “Show me the money!”

    I didn’t think so…


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    Paul

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:33 am)

    nasaman: 15+ years ago (when Dick Weir and Carl Nelson were allegedly working on improving the of hard disk drives), I would have been skeptical that the 1 gigabyte drives of the time would be surpassed by the 1 terabyte drives of today —i.e, by 1,000:1 gains in storage capacity. Yet it happened, even though no one had access to the tools of nanotechnology available back then.
    Today, nanotechnology has achieved enormously-improved material purities (and many other properties) at sub-microscopic levels. EEStor has stated that the EESU data presented in Lyle’s table at the top is based on a permittivity of 18,500 of their barium titanate (BaTiO3) material. And they claim that an independent 3rd party has certified their material achieves a permittivity of at least 22,500.
    As a physicist, I believe that—IF EESTOR CAN ACTUALLY CONTINUE TO ACHIEVE THE PERMITTIVITY & PURITY MILESTONES THEY’VE CLAIMED IN PRODUCTION—a 52KWh EESU with properties similar to those shown in the table above is a distinct possibility.**This also assumes Kleiner Perkins and other funding providers will continue supporting EEStor, even with continued schedule slippage  

    This also assumes they actually have something that works as advertised..


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    Slave to OPEC

     

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:35 am)

    Though most have said what they claim is impossible, I certainly hope they have made a breakthrough (it would revolutionize… everything). It would also be nice to hear from Lockheed as well.

    As for the Volt’s battery cost, I believe it was mentioned you need to add about $10,000 in warranty costs. This seem absurd but, I guess GM is taking no chances with this tech. Hopefully the Gen 2 battery will have lower manufacturing & warranty costs so the rest of us can afford it.


  12. 12
    mikeinatl.

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:43 am)

    #6 NASAMAN

    “15+ years ago (when Dick Weir and Carl Nelson were allegedly working on improving the storage capacity of hard disk drives), I would have been skeptical that the 1 gigabyte drives of the time would be surpassed by the 1 terabyte drives of today —i.e, by 1,000:1 gains in storage capacity. Yet it happened, even though no one had access to the tools of nanotechnology available back then.”

    I agree. Great post.

    But when these advances were made, manufacturers were pretty quick to publicize them and roll out their new products. That’s why something about EEStor just doesnt smell right. If they can do all this, why not show the world and roll out some products?

    We all want to recharge our Voltec vehicles in a few minutes and have batteries that never degrade.

    I expect that all who follow the VOLT hope that EEStor will be a reality soon. Our “soon”, not theirs.


  13. 13
    Dave G

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:52 am)

    nasaman: IF EESTOR CAN ACTUALLY CONTINUE TO ACHIEVE THE PERMITTIVITY & PURITY MILESTONES THEY’VE CLAIMED IN PRODUCTION

    at the projected cost, and in high volume…


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    Rooster

     

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:56 am)

    nasaman: . As a physicist, I believe that —IF EESTOR CAN ACTUALLY CONTINUE TO ACHIEVE THE PERMITTIVITY & PURITY MILESTONES THEY’VE CLAIMED IN PRODUCTION— a 52KWh EESU with properties similar to those shown in the table above is a distinct possibility.**This also assumes Kleiner Perkins and other funding providers will continue supporting EEStor, even with continued schedule slippage  (Quote)

    …and if it is true, it WILL be subject to ITAR. Peroid. I doubt it will see the commericial market.


  15. 15
    Dave G

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:05 am)

    mikeinatl.: We all want to recharge our Voltec vehicles in a few minutes …

    Not me. You wouldn’t catch me within 100 feet of that. It’s inherently dangerous.

    The power required to charge the Volt in 15-20 minutes could probably be made safe, but if this became mainstream we would have a lot of blackouts in the summer.

    I really don’t understand the fuss over fast charging. Overnight charging will cover 80% of our daily driving. Another 10% could be covered easily by slow charging at work.

    For the remaining 10%, ethanol from non-food sources would be sufficient. In fact, Coskata says they can replace up to 35% of our current gasoline consumption using their gasification process:
    http://www.coskata.com/ethanol/index.asp?source=D77DE2FB-67A8-4D6B-81B5-B138725EFB70
    and this is not just in the lab. They are already scaling this up:
    http://www.coskata.com/facilities/

    So to me, fast-charging seems like a dangerous solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.


  16. 16
    sudhaman

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:14 am)

    hey man this could be good. anyone who knows physics understands that capacitors can be charged using ac power and very much faster than the most advanced battery.but this company i have been following for a long time, they dont have a website and all the news was got from zenn motors.Everytime we get only few details of this company’s innovation,they simply havent shown any prototype,so when a prototype arrives we may believe completely.If GM and other detroit carmakers get this tech then it could be a boon to america. we could achieve complete oil independence in a decade or two.
    But i am waiting to see the prototype


  17. 17
    Tagamet

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:15 am)

    Dave G: I really don’t understand the fuss over fast charging. Overnight charging will cover 80% of our daily driving. Another 10% could be covered easily by slow charging at work.

    For the remaining 10%, ethanol from non-food sources would be sufficient. In fact, Coskata says they can replace up to 35% of our current gasoline consumption using their gasification process:
    http://www.coskata.com/ethanol/index.asp?source=D77DE2FB-67A8-4D6B-81B5-B138725EFB70
    and this is not just in the lab. They are already scaling this up:
    http://www.coskata.com/facilities/

    +1
    I totally agree and it’s also neat that GM has a large piece of coskata! Talk about a win/win.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  18. 18
    Dave K.

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:17 am)

    I think it’s great that investors are backing EEStor.
    ________________________________

    BTW: Saw a fellow employee drive a diesel van to our workplace yesterday. I could hear that it was a diesel but asked him about it anyway. He said it was a diesel and went on to say that it is a “veggie” diesel. The exhaust smells like normal diesel oil.

    =D~


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    Tagamet

     

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:25 am)

    The Gov of Michigan just mentioned the Volt on Meet the Press.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  20. 20
    nasaman

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:32 am)

    Dave G: Not me. You wouldn’t catch me within 100 feet of that. It’s inherently dangerous.The power required to charge the Volt in 15-20 minutes could probably be made safe, but if this became mainstream we would have a lot of blackouts in the summer(Quote)

    I agree, Dave. But I’m sure there will be a market for very fast charging, and that it should be technically feasible at minimal risk. Here are some possible ideas:

    1) Use 480V AC ramped up from 0 V by use of a “Variac-type” device to avoid arcing

    2) Use a high-power, full-wave bridge rectifier for high efficiency conversion to DC

    3) Charge up a large bank of stationary EESUs slowly, then transfer the energy to much smaller EESUs in vehicles to minimize the instantaneous AC demand

    4) Charge the large stationary banks of EESUs when the local AC demand (and prices) are lowest (e.g., 1AM-5AM)


  21. 21
    Dave G

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:35 am)

    Rooster: …it WILL be subject to ITAR. Period. I doubt it will see the commercial market.

    I’m not sure I agree, but it’s an excellent point.

    It’s sort of a double-edged sword. If we make the technology public, then our enemies could use it against us. But if we don’t make the technology public, then the money we spend on foreign oil will definitely be used against us.

    Where did Osama bin-Laden get his money? What allows Iran to finance their nuclear program?

    And last but not least, what motivates suicide bombers? Are they so religiously crazed that they can’t wait to die for Allah? Maybe, but there is also a much more practical answer. A suicide bomber strikes knowing that their family will be financially set for life. In fact, most families of suicide bombers are financially better off than they would have been otherwise. Who ends up paying for this? Where does this money come from?

    Every dollar we spend on foreign oil helps pay for our own destruction.


  22. 22
    Kelvin

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:38 am)

    Hey, here’s an idea bloggers. Instead of writing up another “if EEStor is real” article to get some eyeballs to your site, why not figure out if EEStor is real or is the scam many people think it is. Why not ask these guys some pointed questions and not let them hide behind an NDA? Why not record such interviews so any obfuscation and ducking that’s made by the people involved, like Ian Clifford, is made obvious even to the biggest dupe? Why not raise the bar for these guys to get a public platform instead of allowing them to spout half truths and pump ZNN? C’mon be the one who busts this story open.


  23. 23
    Texas

     

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:52 am)

    Jingle bells, EEstor smells, Dick Weir ran away…

    Oh come on, Weir actually rhymes with reindeer! I couldn’t resist. Happy Holidays and I hope you all have happy visions of EESUs dancing in your dreams.


  24. 24
    Gary

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:53 am)

    For those who are going to be in Vancouver for the Olympics…

    Yesterday, Preston GM in Langley BC was offering the public test drives of a Fuel Cell Equinox. It was a unique experience driving a vehicle costing more than several exotic sports cars put together.

    There will be about 8 of these Vehicles in the Vancouver area for the Olympics to shuttle people around. I was given a heads up that 2 Volts will be used as well for the same purpose, and from what I understand, at the beginning of February there will be a public display of at least one at the BC Hydro office building in Downtown Vancouver complete with a charging station.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:57 am)

    Gary: There will be about 8 of these Vehicles in the Vancouver area for the Olympics to shuttle people around. I was given a heads up that 2 Volts will be used as well for the same purpose, and from what I understand, at the beginning of February there will be a public display of at least one at the BC Hydro office building in Downtown Vancouver complete with a charging station.

    I wonder why there would be 4 times more hydrogen cars than Volts??? It should be the other way around.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  26. 26
    Dave G

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:12 am)

    nasaman: But I’m sure there will be a market for very fast charging, and that it should be technically feasible at minimal risk. Here are some possible ideas:
    1) Use 480V AC ramped up from 0 V by use of a “Variac-type” device to avoid arcing

    OK, let’s run some numbers.

    First, let’s assume that the perfect battery has already been invented, and BEVs have become ubiquitous. Assume fast charging stations are everywhere. That seems to be a lot of peoples’ dream, so let’s run with it. How would that work?

    People would want to charge in 10 minutes or less. People would want around 250 miles of range. Some people would need larger vehicles, like an SUV or minivan.

    The Volt is a compact car, and it gets 40 miles with 8kwh of usable battery, or 5 miles per kwh. An SUV or minivan would be much less efficient, perhaps 2.5 miles per kwh. So for an SUV or minivan with 250 miles of electric range, you would need around 100kwh of usable battery capacity.

    Now let’s see about charging that in 10 minutes. 100khw in 10 minutes (1/6 hour) would be 600kw. That’s 600,000 watts. Over a half-million watts. Does anybody know what this means? A half-million watts will vaporize things, big things. It’s not a zap, it’s an explosion, and not a small one.

    Now look at environmental conditions. We can cover the charging station, but not the car. The car may have rain or snow dripping all over it. Who is going to make this half-million watt connection?

    Yes, I understand about testing the circuit ahead of time, and ramping power, but with this much juice, and with the possibility of rain and snow dripping all over the place, I truly believe that this will never be safe.

    When you run the numbers, the dream turns into a nightmare…


  27. 27
    jeffhre

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:16 am)

    Comment 6

    nasaman: As a physicist, I believe that —IF EESTOR CAN ACTUALLY CONTINUE TO ACHIEVE THE PERMITTIVITY & PURITY MILESTONES THEY’VE CLAIMED IN PRODUCTION— a 52KWh EESU with properties similar to those shown in the table above is a distinct possibility.

    Here you are referring to the advances of all the scientists and engineers of an entire industry not just Carl Nelson and the Weirs. And we don’t know the parameters where they have achieved high permittivity, low voltage and room temps?

    Comment 15

    Dave G: So to me, fast-charging seems like a dangerous solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.

    Yes, much like introducing flammable gasoline when horses were doing a great job already. Bottom line, if fast charging gets to market some percentage of folks will use it.

    Comment 4

    Dave G: So in the end, I believe EEStor technology will be real, but at a significantly higher cost than projected. Meanwhile Li/Ion will be going down it’s cost curves due to mass production. So EEStor will be competing for cost in PHEVs and EREVs.

    Good point, pro forma is a only guess, the final numbers will count.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:26 am)

    Dave G: When you run the numbers, the dream turns into a nightmare…

    It is my understanding that boats and ships are actually using this type of high powered connection as we speak.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:31 am)

    Tagamet: I wonder why there would be 4 times more hydrogen cars than Volts??? It should be the other way around.

    The Volt fleet will be extremely busy helping to get the line ready for launch, as for the FC Equinoxes, well…

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    zipdrive

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:37 am)

    Dave G. @ 4 et al. above:

    Excellent analyses Dave. Some folks think that our future electric filling stations should be just like our gas stations, ie. we whip in, hook up a hose and “fill up” in five minutes and be on our way.

    There is no compelling reason to go to these lengths and plenty of reasons not to, as you have said above.

    The Chevy Volt, with it’s range extending generator, will obviate the need for any such infrastructure expense.


  31. 31
    CDAVIS

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:37 am)

    _____________________________________________________
    EEStor = Deep Water?

    I recently watched a movie called Deep Water (a profound movie very much worth watching) about an electrical engineer named Donald Crowhurst. Chrowhurst was a good guy with good initial intentions but he allowed himself to get cornered into an impossible situation by allowing public expectations to overrun reality. It crossed my mind while watching the movie if the story of Dick Weir (of EEStor) will end up similar to the tragic story of Donald Crowhurst.

    Fandango:
    http://www.fandango.com/deepwater_v331711/summary

    NETFLIX:
    http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Deep_Water/70075820
    ______________________________________________________


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    JEC

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:37 am)

    DaveG,

    So what rate of charge do you consider safe?

    The rate of charge is not the real safety issue, its the capacity of the charging unit. So, even if you have a “small” charge rate, you could potentially have a large system capacity.

    I understand your concern, but there are many things that we do in our everyday lives that are dangerous, if you take the time to analyze them.

    Do you fear that a multi-million ton building could collapse on you? Do you realize how much “capacitance” is stored in a skyscraper? How about those springs on your garage door? Do you realize you walk under a large amount of potential energy stored in those springs, everyday?

    Engineering can solve most issues, can they make a safe fast charging station? I believe it can be done, but you need good science and engineering driving it.

    Dave G:
    OK, let’s run some numbers.First, let’s assume that the perfect battery has already been invented, and BEVs have become ubiquitous.Assume fast charging stations are everywhere.That seems to be a lot of peoples’ dream, so let’s run with it.How would that work?People would want to charge in 10 minutes or less.People would want around 250 miles of range.Some people would need larger vehicles, like an SUV or minivan.The Volt is a compact car, and it gets 40 miles with 8kwh of usable battery, or 5 miles per kwh.An SUV or minivan would be much less efficient, perhaps 2.5 miles per kwh.So for and SUV or minivan with 250 miles of electric range, you would need around 100kwh of usable battery capacity.Now let’s see about charging that in 10 minutes.100khw in 10 minutes (1/6 hour) would be 600kw.That’s 600,000 watts.Over a half-million watts.Does anybody know what this means?A half-million watts will vaporize things, big things.It’s not a zap, it’s an explosion, and not a small one.Now look at environmental conditions.We can cover the charging station, but not the car.The car may have rain or snow dripping all over it.Who is going to make this half-million watt connection?
    Yes, I understand about testing the circuit ahead of time, and ramping power, but with this much juice, and with the possibility of rain and snow dripping all over the place, I truly believe that this will never be safe.When you run the numbers, the dream turns into a nightmare…  


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    Tagamet

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:38 am)

    jeffhre: Tagamet: I wonder why there would be 4 times more hydrogen cars than Volts??? It should be the other way around.

    The Volt fleet will be extremely busy helping to get the line ready for launch, as for the FC Equinoxes, well…

    Although the Olympics is just 61 days away, GM should still be able to free up a dozen Volts. Even if they want zero emission vehicles, surely they have a plug at the venues (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:44 am)

    If (or when) they prove to the world that EESTOR is real, then I will switch to Plan B: Start saving up for my Electric Corvette! Whether a new 2012 Stingray or converting my old ’79… I can just imagine smokin’ the tires with 100% torque from a standing start. Either way, it would be excellent! Only thing is, I’ll miss the V-8 rumble…


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:48 am)

    Would be a good time to invest in Goodyear tires! Just think of all the rubber left on the roads.

    definitely need to be able to set a torque limit when the son gets the keys to the EV.

    CorvetteGuy: If (or when) they prove to the world that EESTOR is real, then I will switch to Plan B: Start saving up for my Electric Corvette! Whether a new 2012 Stingray or converting my old ‘79… I can just imagine smokin’ the tires with 100% torque from a standing start. Either way, it would be excellent! Only thing is, I’ll miss the V-8 rumble…  


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:50 am)

    Dave G: I’m not sure I agree, but it’s an excellent point. It’s sort of a double-edged sword. If we make the technology public, then our enemies could use it against us. But if we don’t make the technology public, then the money we spend on foreign oil will definitely be used against us. Where did Osama bin-Laden get his money? What allows Iran to finance their nuclear program?And last but not least, what motivates suicide bombers? Are they so religiously crazed that they can’t wait to die for Allah? Maybe, but there is also a much more practical answer. A suicide bomber strikes knowing that their family will be financially set for life. In fact, most families of suicide bombers are financially better off than they would have been otherwise. Who ends up paying for this? Where does this money come from?Every dollar we spend on foreign oil helps pay for our own destruction.  (Quote)

    I refer you to Part 121, pages 485-486, Category XVIII, Paragraph (7). How would you interpret this regulation if this technology is real?

    http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulati…R_Part_121.pdf


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:56 am)

    Rooster,
    I get a bad page from that link and a message “possible attack”.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dave G

     

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:59 am)

    Rooster: I refer you to Part 121, pages 485-486, Category XVIII, Paragraph (7). How would you interpret this regulation if this technology is real?
    http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulati…R_Part_121.pdf

    The link got mangled somehow. Can you re-post it?


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    Jaime

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (12:19 pm)

    Even if this technology does not turn out to work, you can be sure right now is some garage or lab someone is working on a battery or energy storage techology that will completley change the game and obsolete current batteries. Its just a matter of time.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (12:32 pm)

    Dave G: The link got mangled somehow. Can you re-post it?  (Quote)

    Thanks,

    Sorry about that, looks like I truncated the address. Try the following link:

    http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/ITAR_Part_121.pdf


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (12:38 pm)

    JEC: Engineering can solve most issues, can they make a safe fast charging station? I believe it can be done, but you need good science and engineering driving it.

    Here’s a real world example; ( http://www.meltric.com/html/ship-to-shore-connectors.html ) Scroll down, they show some amazing stuff, to us landlubbers anyway!!! If you request a free sample – let us know how you like it 🙂


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    Herm

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (12:53 pm)

    Dave G:
    Assume fast charging stations are everywhere.That seems to be a lot of peoples’ dream, so let’s run with it.How would that work?People would want to charge in 10 minutes or less.People would want around 250 miles of range….you would need around 100kwh of usable battery capacity.Now let’s see about charging that in 10 minutes.

    I believe the future belongs to electric cars, but I dont believe fast charging stations (under 20 minutes) will ever be commercially successful. There is just no market for it except for those unfortunates that just dont have any access to power where they park their cars at night, why would they buy an electric car?.. too limited a market for someone to invest in a fast charging infrastructure.

    We have had gas stations for 125 years because that was the only way to refuel a car.. but once you can do that at home they will mostly disappear. Its a paradigm shift, start getting used to it.

    There may be a market for stations in major highways (subsidized by the government) but more likely you will be able to rent a trailer genset at Uhaul.

    400kw charging stations are commercial products now, and you can always have two parallel pack in your car to charge simultaneously.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:00 pm)

    Jim I: So stop talking about it and build the d***n thing!!!!Zenn is either really smart, or really dumb…. Only time will tell!  (Quote)

    Maybe EEStor is going through a development curve similar to GM and might now be at the EV1 stage, i.e. far far away from commercial product. However, the EV1 was at least a real, physical product that actually had some people thinking that the electric car was just around the corner. I do hope that these people are not bilking the people that are putting money into the company.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:00 pm)

    jeffhre: Here’s a real world example; ( http://www.meltric.com/html/ship-to-shore-connectors.html )

    Right. Here’s their 1/2 million watt connector.
    pf-2.jpg pf-4.jpg

    No problem 😉


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    Tagamet

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:07 pm)

    Dave G:
    Right.Here’s their 1/2 million watt connector.
    No problem   

    I’d love to see THAT in my garage. Naw, on second thought I think it’s a bit bulky.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:11 pm)

    Herm: We have had gas stations for 125 years because that was the only way to refuel a car.. but once you can do that at home they will mostly disappear.

    For local neighborhoods, yes, probably more than half of the gas stations will go out of business, since EREVs will cover 80% of daily driving with an overnight charge.

    But on the highways, large trucks will continue to use liquid fuel. And passenger vehicles that drive longer distances will use liquid fuel as well. So most of these gas stations will remain. And over time, most will convert to bio-fuels.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:17 pm)

    Dave G: Not me. You wouldn’t catch me within 100 feet of that. It’s inherently dangerous.
    The power required to charge the Volt in 15-20 minutes could probably be made safe, but if this became mainstream we would have a lot of blackouts in the summer.

    Consider this: yes, it is inherently dangerous AND that rate of power transfer would hurt the grid IF it came from the grid. How about you have a filling station that has supercapacitor storage units that are being charged up by “virtual trickle chargers” but when you pull up to the “pump” you have a very thick cable with a very secure connector and the vehicle is charged at a flooding rate. Then the supercapacitors in the filling station resume the slower charging rate. This would assume that there is not much energy lost in charging/discharging a supercapacitor. Such filling stations might even be useful for charging conventional batteries quickly. Likely the new “standard connector” would not be up to the high currents needed for this however.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:20 pm)

    Dave G:
    For local neighborhoods, yes, probably more than half of the gas stations will go out of business, since EREVs will cover 80% of daily driving with an overnight charge.But on the highways,large trucks will continue to use liquid fuel.And passenger vehicles that drive longer distances will use liquid fuel as well.So most of these gas stations will remain.And over time, most will convert to bio-fuels.  

    Let’s get a few tens of millions of wheels on the road first!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:23 pm)

    Tagamet: The Gov of Michigan just mentioned the Volt on Meet the Press.Be well,TagametLet’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS   (Quote)

    That’s one of the few good things about our dear governor. She DOES sound good when she talks, kind of like Pres. Obama.


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    evnow

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:36 pm)

    nasaman: As a physicist, I believe that —IF EESTOR CAN ACTUALLY CONTINUE TO ACHIEVE THE PERMITTIVITY & PURITY MILESTONES THEY’VE CLAIMED IN PRODUCTION— a 52KWh EESU with properties similar to those shown in the table above is a distinct possibility.*

    Nasaman,

    You should checkout the science threads in theeestory.com forum. Like the one below.

    http://theeestory.com/topics/4345?page=1

    The claimed ED is much beyond first principle calculations – yet Dick Weir says there is no new science. The problem has always been permittivity at high voltages needed for claimed ED – Weir has never addressed saturation problems. He seems to assume linearity w.r.t. voltage which is against all available literature on the subject.


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    Rashiid Amul

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:39 pm)

    I believe in EESTOR so much, that I will hold my breath from now until December 31, 2009. The truth will come out. Praise to EESTOR as I kneel down and pray to them. 😐

    Ya right!. Like most of you here, I will believe it when I see it.
    It is always around the perpetual corner. I hope they are for real. I hope they deliver this month. But I would bet all of your paychecks they are not real. 😉


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:42 pm)

    Seems like the devil is always in the details.

    evnow: Nasaman,You should checkout the scienc threads in theeestory.com forum. Like the one below.http://theeestory.com/topics/4345?page=1The claimed ED is much beyond first principle calculations – yet Dick Weir says there is no new science. The problem has always been permittivity at high voltage – Weir has never addressed saturation problems. He seems to assume linearity w.r.t. voltage which is against all available literature on the subject.  (Quote)


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:44 pm)

    Dave G: But on the highways, large trucks will continue to use liquid fuel. And passenger vehicles that drive longer distances will use liquid fuel as well. So most of these gas stations will remain. And over time, most will convert to bio-fuels.  

    I think large trucks will use what is most economical at the time.. surprised they are not using CNG right now. It may even turn out to be electricity.

    Methanol (wood alcohol) synthesized from coal or NG seems like a long term economical solution for liquid fuels.. we have been using methanol in model airplanes since the ’50s.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (1:48 pm)

    Tagamet: I’d love to see THAT in my garage. Naw, on second thought I think it’s a bit bulky.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Wimp.. thats what they made teenage boys for


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    kent beuchert

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (2:02 pm)

    There’re stupid conspiracy theories, then there are those beyond stupid. The early comment by van strikes me as
    an exampole of a theory that is deaf , dumb and blind. Lithium battery startups and established players are having zero problems attracting capital these days, despite the less than bright outlook for lithium technology for all except A123 System’s “slippery surface” technology. And they aren’t publiclly traded. I wonder how EEstor managed to convince ZENN Motors, an electric car company and the least likely friend of big oil around, or Lockheed Martin, which has no ties whatsoever to big oil, whoever that might be in Van’s fertile imagination. van,there is no “big oil.” That’s a fairly tale spread by those who want to make money selling useless crap to the public, like windmills. There’s also the obvious fact that new and revolutionary technologies are never understood by current theories – if they were, then they wouldn’t be revolutionary, now would they? Based on ZENN Motors recent behavior in dropping everything in favor of being solely an OEM provider of ZENNEnergy drivetrains and Lockheeed Martin execs rather strange optimism at a recent press conference, I’d say that the odds are that EESTor not only works, but that a lot of folks now know that it does. At least I can’t think of any other explanation for L-H and Zenn Motors’ behavior. And THEY are in a position to know, not some nobody using “van” as an alias, and hasn’t got the courage to provide his real name.


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    Herm

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (2:05 pm)

    This is how car chargers are classified:

    Level 1 = 120VAC at 20A

    Level 2 = 240VAC at 70A (the new J1772 connector will handle this)

    Level 3 = 400VDC and up at 500A (note that this is not AC power)

    Level 1 can pump 8 miles of range per hour of charging, Level 2 can do 60 miles.


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    kent beuchert

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (2:06 pm)

    If it takes “about two years” for GM to switch the Volt to all-electric (which I am assuming what they are talking about), then GM should get out of the auto business. The only tasks I can see that are required is to throw away the gasoline engine and all of its systems, and stuff an EEStor battery in the car. If GM thinks this is going to take a couple of years,then they probably should be looking for some other line of work. The Federal govt can always use people like them.


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    Tagamet

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (2:07 pm)

    Civility is a *such* a nice characteristic.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    RLM

     

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (2:17 pm)

    I hope this thread can be stored for future readers.
    I’m sure readers twenty years from now will have many laughs


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    Gary

     

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (2:18 pm)

    Tagamet: I wonder why there would be 4 times more hydrogen cars than Volts??? It should be the other way around.

    Probably since they will be used a lot (i.e. more than 40 miles before the car can be plugged in) and hydrogen tanks can be filled up quickly in comparison.


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    jeffhre

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (2:36 pm)

    Comment 44

    Dave G: Right. Here’s their 1/2 million watt connector.

    Comment 45

    Tagamet: I’d love to see THAT in my garage. Naw, on second thought I think it’s a bit bulky.

    If I laugh any harder I may have to call out from work tomorrow for medical reasons. Yep, I’ll order one for my driveway today 🙂

    I think Herm has it about right,

    comment 42

    Herm: There may be a market for (fast charging) stations in major highways…

    Some fraction of the population will try it. If it can survive as a business proposition, who knows?


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (2:37 pm)

    Gary:
    Probably since they will be used a lot (i.e. more than 40 miles before the car can be plugged in) and hydrogen tanks can be filled up quickly in comparison.  

    There have to be a lot more than 10 vehicles being used for the Olympics. Surely they all aren’t zero emission…
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (2:39 pm)

    jeffhre: Tagamet: I’d love to see THAT in my garage. Naw, on second thought I think it’s a bit bulky.

    If I laugh any harder I may have to call out from work tomorrow for medical reasons. Yep, I’ll order one for my driveway today 🙂

    Laughter is good for the soul.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (2:44 pm)

    Herm:
    I believe the future belongs to electric cars, but I dont believe fast charging stations (under 20 minutes) will ever be commercially successful.  

    20 minutes would be great for me, unless I was late for a meeting or appointment. A lot better than two days on a 120 volt panel.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (2:45 pm)

    EEStor is real folks…All of you skeptics are DENIERS…FLAT EARTHERS…it’s just a matter of time until the EESU is revealed. Go to Polarity Inc.’s website – they’re proud of their 2009 contract with EEStor. ZENN is stopping production of cars. There is too much evidence.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:00 pm)

    kent beuchert: If GM thinks this is going to take a couple of years,then they probably should be looking for some other line of work.

    I’m sure they could build you one in a week or so. Tooling and testing for mass production is a different story though, considering liability is virtually unlimited.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:01 pm)

    ejj: EEStor is real folks…All of you skeptics are DENIERS…FLAT EARTHERS…it’s just a matter of time until the EESU is revealed.Go to Polarity Inc.’s website – they’re proud of their 2009 contract with EEStor.ZENN is stopping production of cars.There is too much evidence.  

    Time will tell. As I said, I’m rooting for them.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    DickWeirdo

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:03 pm)

    kent beuchert: and hasn’t got the courage to provide his real name.  

    Like the biggest pumper of EESCAM/Zenn, the blogger with the bag over his head, BAGHEAD


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:05 pm)

    PDNFTT
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:06 pm)

    Dave G: Right. Here’s their 1/2 million watt connector.

    No problem 😉

    Granted, it’s not for the feint of heart, but look on the bright side, no more smelly gas fumes 🙂 🙂

    Like you’ve said before this to replace the few gallons of liquid fuel that the Volt will use per year?


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:19 pm)

    jeffhre:
    Granted, it’s not for the feint of heart, but look on the bright side, no more smelly gas fumes
    Like you’ve said before this to replace the few gallons of liquid fuel that the Volt will use per year?  

    Well sure when you put it *that* way, it sounds silly (lol).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:28 pm)

    jeffhre:
    My only point is, it’s fun to speculate but we won’t know, where all this big battery v. little battery, EEstor v. Li Ion, range extender v micro-turbine, home charge v quick charge will end up until results get on the road and consumers make choices.  


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    LRGVProVolt

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:30 pm)

    Slightly off topic comment:

    A number of post, here, encouraged me to research AeroVoronment Inc., a company I became aware of when following Altairnano and the Phoenix Motor Car SUT.

    I found the following link on a document prepaired by them with regard to infrastructure for recharging EV batteries. It makes for interessting reading and answers many of the questions I have seen posed in this blog.

    http://www.avinc.com/downloads/EVs_The_Next_Big_Thing_V2.pdf

    For example, it has been said that it would not be necessary to replace gas stations with charging stations. The document indicated that for every 3 to 10 gas stations only one charging station would be needed. It goes into the comparative costs for building the stations: electric charging stations would be far cheaper to build. The following statement answers several of the questions I have seen: “In order to support EV rollout in 20 key metropolitan markets and the corridors that connect them, the U.S. may be able to build out Level 2 and Level 3 charging
    infrastructure for an estimated incremental investment of $3 to $5 billion by 2015, which is remarkably affordable compared to other alternative fuel infrastructure models.”

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:36 pm)

    JEC: So what rate of charge do you consider safe?

    If you had an SUV with 250 miles of electric range, and you wanted to charge that in 10 minutes, that would require around 600,000 watts. I believe this level of power is inherently dangerous.

    Herm:
    Level 1 = 120VAC at 20A
    Level 2 = 240VAC at 70A (the new J1772 connector will handle this)
    Level 3 = 400VDC and up at 500A (note that this is not AC power)
    Level 1 can pump 8 miles of range per hour of charging, Level 2 can do 60 miles.

    Level 1 and Level 2 are both safe. However, if plug-ins go mainstream, then Level 2 would probably start causing blackouts, particularly if a lot of people charge during the day, especially in the summer.

    At 200,000 watts, I believe Level 3 will probably be dangerous. Does anyone have a link to more details on this?


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    LRGVProVolt

     

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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:42 pm)

    #20

    nasaman: I agree, Dave. But I’m sure there will be a market for very fast charging, and that it should be technically feasible at minimal risk. Here are some possible ideas:

    It’s already being done at airports. See my prior post #73 on document by AeroVironment Inc. It is not at all dangerous if the proper precautions are taken.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:47 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: Slightly off topic comment:A number of post, here, encouraged me to research AeroVoronment Inc., a company I became aware of when following Altairnano and the Phoenix Motor Car SUT.I found the following link on a document prepaired by them with regard to infrastructure for recharging EV batteries. It makes for interessting reading and answers many of the questions I have seen posed in this blog.http://www.avinc.com/downloads/EVs_The_Next_Big_Thing_V2.pdfFor example, it has been said that it would not be necessary to replace gas stations with charging stations. The document indicated that for every 3 to 10 gas stations only one charging station would be needed. It goes into the comparative costs for building the stations: electric charging stations would be far cheaper to build. The following statement answers several of the questions I have seen: “In order to support EV rollout in 20 key metropolitan markets and the corridors that connect them, the U.S. may be able to build out Level 2 and Level 3 charging
    infrastructure for an estimated incremental investment of $3 to $5 billion by 2015, which is remarkably affordable compared to other alternative fuel infrastructure models.”
    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    That’s a great example of just how much money a *billion* dollars is! For only 5,000 million dollars we could build out the charging infrastructure (that we have available at home). I think that when the market makes it fiscally doable, it’ll happen (which I think it will – it’ll just take time). JMO(!)
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:53 pm)

    In case EEstor battery voltage 3500 V then would be possible to arrange charging within 5 minutes. But the charging station shall be specially arranged with no access to the automobile during charging. In case 52 kWh during 5 minutes you have to have 0,7 MW DC charger and charging current 200 A. That is possible. No standard available yet but possible.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (3:54 pm)

    #30

    zipdrive: Dave G. @ 4 et al. above:Excellent analyses Dave.Some folks think that our future electric filling stations should be just like our gas stations, ie. we whip in, hook up a hose and “fill up” in five minutes and be on our way.There is no compelling reason to go to these lengths and plenty of reasons not to, as you have said above.The , with it’s range extending generator, will obviate the need for any such infrastructure expense.  

    Charging stations for EV won’t be anything like gas stations.

    “Make It Affordable: Lower Infrastructure Costs and Encourage Proliferation Level 2 and Level 3 charging systems can be acquired and installed for less than an estimated $2,000 to $4,200 and $110,000 to $160,000 respectively, depending on local labor rates and requirements. In comparison, gas stations cost about $2 million each to build, and the cost for a national build out of fuel cell infrastructure is estimated in the hundreds of billions.” quoted from the end of page four of the following link:

    http://www.avinc.com/downloads/EVs_The_Next_Big_Thing_V2.pdf

    There have been a number of pictures on stand alone and multiple station kiosks depicted in various links on the internet; they are much simpler and less costly than gas stations.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (4:01 pm)

    JohnK: How about you have a filling station that has supercapacitor storage units that are being charged up by “virtual trickle chargers” but when you pull up to the “pump” you have a very thick cable with a very secure connector and the vehicle is charged at a flooding rate.

    Yes, I’m assuming that the power would probably transfer from one battery to another, but a half-million watt connection between one battery and another is still very dangerous.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (4:39 pm)

    Perhaps a more practical “future generation” EREV and BEV power source might be the Redox Flow battery system presently in development by Fraunhofer Labs and the University of Michigan, a technology shown publicly in Germany in October 2009:

    http://www.fraunhofer.de/en/press/research-news/2009/10/improved-redox-flow-batteries-for-electric-cars.jsp

    See the Redox Flow thread within the GM-Volt.com Forum battery section for more info.

    And note the Fraunhofer-Univ. of Michigan team is reportedly researching new super-capacitor designs as well.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (5:26 pm)

    Kelvin: Hey, here’s an idea bloggers. Instead of writing up another “if EEStor is real” article to get some eyeballs to your site, why not figure out if EEStor is real or is the scam many people think it is. Why not ask these guys some pointed questions and not let them hide behind an NDA? Why not record such interviews so any obfuscation and ducking that’s made by the people involved, like Ian Clifford, is made obvious even to the biggest dupe? Why not raise the bar for these guys to get a public platform instead of allowing them to spout half truths and pump ZNN? C’mon be the one who busts this story open.  

    Interesting. So you’re saying ask direct questions like does it work and are you excited about it? Maybe do this on camera so there can be no disputing what the response is, etc? Very good ideas.

    In the case of EEStor partner Lockheed Martin, that’s been done recently:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUKGpqdad0E

    But what about Kleiner Perkins? They’ve never said a single public thing about EEStor. Not directly anyway:

    http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2009/11/stanford-dopes-fail-to-ask-eestor.html

    Note the picture of the Kleiner Perkins powerpoint slide: stealth capacitor. I suppose you can say maybe they have invested in someone other than EEStor if you like. But then, why don’t they list a second stealth capacitor company just as they do the listing of two stealth battery companies? Recently, a canadian reporter was able to get Kleiner’s spokeswoman to admit it’s EEStor relationship.

    http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2009/10/zenneestor-article-in-globe-and-mail.html

    The original article appears to be for pay now.

    What else? Talk to someone who has toured their facility? Someone with some credibility, perhaps from a career as a judge? Done:

    http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2009/09/after-tour-of-eestor-facilities-us.html

    Don’t believe any of it? Ok. Don’t believe it. Wait for the evidence.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (5:33 pm)

    I just don’t think an EESU would be as cost efficient as one might hope in the long run, even though the claims imply otherwise. You see, handling any extremely concentrated energy density will present all manner of unproven situations for the handling of it, that, it seems to me, will add at least several more years onto the two years that many might hope.

    Servicing of extremely concentrated energy density devices and the vehicles that contain them also presents some expensive possibilities in the long term.

    The Redux battery, while very interesting for stationary apps, presents some extremely corrosive fluid states that may not at all be suitable for motive apps, especially in an accident if a fluid breach were to occur.

    Volt as it is, is the very best all around answer.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (6:18 pm)

    Dan Petit: …Volt as it is, is the very best all around answer.

    Amen!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (7:21 pm)

    If the EESU really exists then I don’t need a Volt but would buy an electric car with an EESU. Unfortunately it sounds too good to be true.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (7:37 pm)

    Kelvin: Hey, here’s an idea bloggers. Instead of writing up another “if EEStor is real” article to get some eyeballs to your site…Why not ask these guys some pointed questions and not let them hide behind an NDA? (Quote)

    Do you know what a NDA is? It is a legal agreement that has serious repercussions if it is violated. I think they have been very smart to keep the process as secret as possible until they are ready to reveal. The only sure way to get the jump on your competition.

    Patents, supposedly provide protection, but they also provide critical information to your competitors, who then start working on ways to accomplish the same thing without violating the patent. EEStor has just filed a group of patents, leaving it to the last minute so as not to give the competition an early start.

    Other people have voiced the opinion that if they have the product, why not show it to us. This is exactly what they are working towards, just can’t do it instantly.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (8:39 pm)

    Roy: Other people have voiced the opinion that if they have the product, why not show it to us. This is exactly what they are working towards, just can’t do it instantly.

    All they would have to do is show just *ONE* supercap the size of a peanut that could *ACTUALLY* store the amount of charge at 3000V they imply – people would literally line up to throw $$Billions$$ at them.

    Not only have they utterly failed to produce a single real prototype, but they have also consistently avoided any mention of performance at voltage. It makes no difference whatsoever how much purity they have or what the permittivity is at just 1V (which is how its been tested) when every criticism of the technology by experts has been in regards to its high voltage performance.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:15 pm)

    Whoever says it is a hoax is stupid.. period.. no company invests in nothing.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:32 pm)

    Jay: Whoever says it is a hoax is stupid.. period.. no company invests in nothing.  (Quote)

    I guess you have been away—google Madoff


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:36 pm)

    Jay: Whoever says it is a hoax is stupid.. period.. no company invests in nothing.

    Ever heard of Enron? Sub-prime Mortages? People make bad investments all the time – when much more is promised than is actually delivered.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (9:43 pm)

    Larry:
    Ever heard of Enron?Sub-prime Mortages?People make bad investments all the time– when much more is promised than is actually delivered.  

    Different as they yet don’t have customers.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:14 pm)

    Curious, approximately 80,000 solar panels are being installed on Davis/Monthan AFB for powering base housing. I gotta wonder if they are planning to use this technology to store energy for use at night The You Tube video mentioned how this kind of technology would be very beneficial for renewables.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:19 pm)

    kent beuchert: There’re stupid conspiracy theories, then there are those beyond stupid. The early comment by van strikes me as
    an exampole of a theory that is deaf , dumb and blind. Lithium battery startups and established players are having zero problems attracting capital these days, despite the less than bright outlook for lithium technology for all except A123 System’s “slippery surface” technology. And they aren’t publiclly traded. I wonder how EEstor managed to convince ZENN Motors, an electric car company and the least likely friend of big oil around, or Lockheed Martin, which has no ties whatsoever to big oil, whoever that might be in Van’s fertile imagination. van,there is no “big oil.” That’s a fairly tale spread by those who want to make money selling useless crap to the public, like windmills. There’s also the obvious fact that new and revolutionary technologies are never understood by current theories – if they were, then they wouldn’t be revolutionary, now would they? Based on ZENN Motors recent behavior in dropping everything in favor of being solely an OEM provider of ZENNEnergy drivetrains and Lockheeed Martin execs rather strange optimism at a recent press conference, I’d say that the odds are that EESTor not only works, but that a lot of folks now know that it does. At least I can’t think of any other explanation for L-H and Zenn Motors’ behavior. And THEY are in a position to know, not some nobody using “van” as an alias, and hasn’t got the courage to provide his real name.  

    I have been called names like “stupid” before but it is a new low for my views to be called deaf, dumb, and blind. Folks dealing with these difficulties deserve better than to be used as objects of ridicule.

    It may be that some folks are attracting capital these days, but the Volt cells come from Korea, and the Prius cells will come from Japan.
    So what has inhibited timely investment in the USA? Why invest in a cell production facility if Eestor will render the facility obsolete in “X” months?

    As for the conclusion that Eestor is for real because some folks have invested in it, folks invested in “Betamax” too. 🙂

    People with an agenda use hoaxes to prevail, note the Bush effort to not fund battery production, but instead invested in hydrogen. Man made global warming has the backing of many “scientists” but it seems they are willing to arrange the data to “enhance” the evidence.

    As far as using a screen name, lots of folks posting on this board use screen names. And as it happens, I use by actual name. So the effort to disparage my views by calling me a coward for not using my real name would seem like twaddle to me.

    Ad homenim arguments, where you attack a person character to disparage there views, is often practiced on the internet when the person cannot support their views logically or rationally. Go figure.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:43 pm)

    Jay: Whoever says it is a hoax is stupid.. period.. no company invests in nothing.  (Quote)

    Are you NUTS? That is exactly what the world financial meltdown was all about. I think people are using too much emotion here. Yes, let’s hope that it pans out and something comes of it. I for one will NOT be holding my breath.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (10:52 pm)

    Ok, let try and predict the future…

    First of all EESTOR may be real, since it does not violate any known laws of physics (conservation of energy for example). How soon something like that will hit the marker remains to be seen, but it’s only a matter of time.

    Second, we don’t really know what the future of automobile will look like. I think it is quite possible that in 20-30 years Volt will look like a heavy and inefficient junk comparing to the new personal transportation vehicles. Maybe most of the new ones will be shaped like Aptera and build out of lite composite materials. In this case 50 Kw will be more that enough.

    Most likely there will be much greater diversity of energy sources for the vehicles. Small highly efficient EVs will be available for the commuters who still prefer to work in the office or can’t work remotely (surgeons?). Liquid fuel cell and hydrogen could power heavy industrial equipment and commercial delivery fleets. The real source of power for all this will have to be fusion. Wind and solar for industrial generation are dead end in my opinion. The energy demand will grow enormously.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:27 pm)

    Blind Guy: Curious, approximately 80,000 solar panels are being installed on Davis/Monthan AFB for powering base housing.

    Very curious. In Arizona, there is a lot of desert. That’s perfect for solar thermal energy, which is much cheaper and more flexible than solar panels. In fact, the largest solar power plant in the world is solar thermal:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Energy_Generating_Systems

    And with the new solar power tower designs, storage is a non-issue:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
    “…designs using liquid sodium in place of water have been demonstrated; this is a metal with high heat capacity, which can be used to store the energy before using it to boil water to drive turbines. These designs allow power to be generated when the sun is not shining.”

    So why would they spend tons of money on solar panels and electrical storage devices, especially in Arizona?

    They should have installed a solar power tower.


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    Dec 13th, 2009 (11:28 pm)

    I really hope that my lack of enthusiasm for EESU is proven wrong on or before December 31, 2009. I really do want to see this technology succeed, because if it does, it will be revolutionary for the way we live. All cars, in a matter of just a few years, would become EeStor-equipped EREVs. Solar and wind power (very unreliable) would become the standard now that we found an efficient means of storing power when conditions permit, and using it when they do not.

    But I don’t think they will make this or any other deadline. I think EeStor is vaporware, and I think they will get sued eventually.

    They have demonstrated that they can make the core components for it, but they have not yet demonstrated a working model. I mean, anything- a simple flashlight powered by an EeStor module- but we don’t see even that.

    I think the attention we have been giving them is misplaced. In my opinion, the community shouldn’t produce another article on this company until they have a proof of concept operating at HIGH VOLTAGE. Experts have already come out and say their numbers don’t make sense yet we ignore this in the hope that this new revolutionary technology comes true.

    I think the fact that the Volt has got as far as it has- has somehow got us to think that hopeful wishing will make things come true.


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (2:01 am)

    Are you kidding me five minutes for recharging a battery yeah right if this is for real an EEStor would change the Technology industry forever and if it ever becomes reality it would defiantly make history and surly would be one of the greatest inventions since the light bulb and truly it would let people use there electronics more often and would beat the gas and oil industry for good period! Though people need to be greener when using up electricity on there electronics till more people are able to use green energy like solar, wind, and thermal energy.


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (2:09 am)

    Plus hydro energy unless that is the same as thermal?


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (2:29 am)

    D LO: Santa Clause is more real than EESU  (Quote)

    We can only wait to see what happens in this regard, But I never count out small companies of technically ingenious people inventing anything. A good example is the genome which wasn’t supposed to arrive before 2020. Along came a person with true genius and “walla” the genome arrived 20 years sooner.

    I think the invention of transistors in the late 1940s is another example of the genius of human effort overcoming the difficulties of the vacuum tube.

    While experts in this field have doubts about the invention of supercapacitors for energy storage, I would never count out Eestor. Storing electricity has been invented as has the capacitor. So what is so far out about the invention of a super capacitor ?


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (2:39 am)

    nasaman: I believe that —IF EESTOR CAN ACTUALLY CONTINUE TO ACHIEVE THE PERMITTIVITY & PURITY MILESTONES THEY’VE CLAIMED IN PRODUCTION

    Good to have an optomist in the crowd


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (4:53 am)

    nasaman: nasaman
    commented about material advances in hard disk drives

    True, there have been materials advances, but I’m not sure that has been the largest driver of increased density. I think the scaling of drive density is more closely related to scaling of semiconductor devices because the read channels have incorporated huge amounts of signal processing. Basically, they gave up trying to write discrete 1’s and 0’s years ago and now write something more like a big “smudge” and figure out the 1’s and 0’s with a lot of DSP. 🙂 Of course, I used to work around read/write channel electronics so I’m admittedly biased. Still, I think the lion’s share of the density advances are in the heads and signal processing, not the magnetic materials themselves.

    Sadly, I have little confidence that EEStor can pull off their ESU. I wish them luck of course, but as I’ve said before, there’s nothing to see here. Everybody set your alarms for “working prototype” and then we can discuss further. 🙂


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (8:23 am)

    There are breakthroughs announced all the time but very very few make it out of the lab. Every time I hear EEStor I get this feeling they have something special but just can’t get it to work “outside the lab”. …or they can’t figure out how to manufacture the darn thing.

    There are some incredible things one can make with rare materials, money, and expertise. The problem is almost all of those things can’t be manufactured en mass or are cost prohibitive. For example, take a B2 stealth bomber and then take an aircraft carrier. Observe the difference in their mass. What makes the B2 almost half the cost of an entire air craft carrier? Probably some incredible hard to make materials which are also hard to fabricate combined with extreme precision. I bet it’s really time consuming too.

    Just another story of getting c*ck-blocked by engineering.


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (10:15 am)

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    Dec 14th, 2009 (10:37 am)

    Dave G: Yes, I’m assuming that the power would probably transfer from one battery to another, but a half-million watt connection between one battery and another is still very dangerous.

    IF you believe in EE then you can also believe that a ‘flux capacitor’ can channel this much power (giga-watts) safely and that you can time-travel by only going 88 mph. lol.


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (11:01 am)

    Dave G: and this is not just in the lab. They are already scaling this up:
    http://www.coskata.com/facilities/

    The Coskata scale-up is said to be able to produce “40,000 gallons”, but 40,000 gallons per what? Per year, per day, or what? Does anyone have that information?


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (11:10 am)

    Dan Petit: ..handling any extremely concentrated energy density will present all manner of unproven situations..

    Releasing energy in an uncontrolled manner is called an explosion.

    I do not believe that EE can produce a 53kw ultra-capacitor that can be used in a controlled manner such as an EV battery. It’s been way too long with little progress.

    However, I have a little Coleman electric screwdriver that runs on capacitors. Maybe it’s just a matter of scale at this point. I think a capacitor can be built at 53kw levels. I don’t think EE is the company to do it. Maybe GE or NASA.


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (12:21 pm)

    Re: Paul #10 I can empathize. Doing the impossible in zero time on a few bucks is a barrel of fun. I’ve done it twice. Its hard for even fellow professionals to understand known and unknown risks. Writing plan after plan after plan. Protecting IP (intellectual property). Never-ending dialing for dollars. Trying to maintain some control with VC backing. Surprises along the way- like finding the guy you trusted to be an genuine you-know-what. How bad guys stick it to you.
    Through all this keeping your mind on each milestone. So. With EEStor having gotten this far. I think there’s a very good chance they’ll succeed. I don’t have a clue when. Neither does anybody else – Lyle’s poll is strictly intuitive.
    And I must say bringing aboard KP VC was their luckiest day. There is no VC better suited to stay the course, fully trustworthy, fully competent than KP.
    What’s more, its no secret certain Asian countries are pursuing this big-time.


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (12:23 pm)

    Tagamet: I’m rooting for EEStor, but then again I’m rooting for world peace and a $1000 BEV. Hey it’s Christmas, we should wish them well.

    9:10 am

    You can’t say it any better than that. +1

    As the great Chick Hearn always used to say when someone was fouled in the act of shooting:

    “It’ll count if it goes!”


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (4:56 pm)

    In other capacitor-based power news:

    “The Pulsar series of drives include a supercapacitor which holds enough power to enable the drive to complete any write operations without losing data in the event of a power outage.”

    http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/184015/seagates_pulsar_drives_bring_ssd_to_enterprise_primetime.html


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (5:11 pm)

    Fahrvergnugen Fanboy:
    The Coskata scale-up is said to be able to produce “40,000 gallons”, but 40,000 gallons per what?Per year, per day, or what?Does anyone have that information?  

    ” as much as a 100 million gallons of flex ethanol annually” That’s 11,000+ gallons per hour if running 24x7x365.

    http://gas2.org/2009/10/19/up-close-and-personal-with-coskatas-new-flex-ethanol-plant/


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (5:54 pm)

    Loboc: ” as much as a 100 million gallons of flex ethanol annually” That’s 11,000+ gallons per hour if running 24×7×365.http://gas2.org/2009/10/19/up-close-and-personal-with-coskatas-new-flex-ethanol-plant/  (Quote)

    The plant now in operation is a “working scale model of a full size ethanol plant, and the processes and technology here can one day soon be scaled up to produce as much as a 100 million gallons of flex ethanol annually.”

    I would be interested to know what the production capacity of the currently-operating scale model is.


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (7:26 pm)

    This is alien technology that will not be fully revealed until the presence of aliens are… So, not anytime soon. Unless you are a Close Encounters type. And a disruptive technology such as this would damage the world economy just now preparing to build energy storage around lithium ion batteries.

    Unless you are an alien with an investment in EEStor. Or Lockheed. Or a black ops group working from down under the crust. Or…

    And there are major safety issues.


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    Dec 14th, 2009 (8:26 pm)

    Van: Ad homenim arguments, where you attack a person character to disparage there views, is often practiced on the internet when the person cannot support their views logically or rationally.

    10:19 am

    True that. Sad but true. +1


  114. 114
    jake

     

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    Dec 15th, 2009 (1:08 am)

    Dave G: Now let’s see about charging that in 10 minutes. 100khw in 10 minutes (1/6 hour) would be 600kw. That’s 600,000 watts. Over a half-million watts. Does anybody know what this means? A half-million watts will vaporize things, big things. It’s not a zap, it’s an explosion, and not a small one.

    On the safety front, it has already been demonstrated it is possible to build a safe conductive fast EV charger (but this extends from building a safe normal EV charger since the power output of even the slowest charger is enough to kill a person without any safety systems). If you compare safety against gasoline, I think it’s actually safer (I don’t have exact statistics of gas fires, but I don’t think they are that rare). With today’s power connectors for EVs, it is virtually impossible to get electrocuted since there is actually no electricity flowing until the connection has actually been established. With a gasoline pump, just some static electricity can set you on fire.

    On the technology front, both the chargers and power sources can handle it:
    A 800kW charger:
    http://gas2.org/2009/08/04/aerovironment-unveils-800kw-ev-charger/
    The only other one of this scale is the 250kW charger made by the same company. It was used to demonstrate charging an EV with a 35kWh Altairnano battery in 10 minutes.

    A typical supermarket will draw about 500kW at peak demand and about 275kW at min demand. From what I heard, it is possible to get a 1MW power source if you have a bit bigger supermarket.
    http://www.epa.gov/RDEE/documents/sector-meeting/4biii_supermarket.pdf

    Anyways, the argument for fast charging isn’t what you think it is. It isn’t meant to be the main charging source. The main charging source is what you said, the home/work slow chargers. Fast chargers are meant for emergencies and road trips, installed in places similar to gas stations and spread out, not in places like homes. It is meant to fill in the gaps that the slow chargers can’t fill. And in general fast chargers today are in the 20-100kW range (Level 3 DC). The ones that will see wider usage by the Leaf is in the 50kW range.


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    EVcast

     

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    Dec 15th, 2009 (8:54 am)

    I actually saw a working EESU. It was on the mothership the aliens took me to when they abducted me.


  116. […] [S&#111u&#114c&#101: GM-Volt.co&#109] […]


  117. 117
    Dan Frederiksen

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    Dec 15th, 2009 (1:46 pm)

    it doesn’t take 3 hours to charge laptop cells. relaxed charge is 1 hour. can probably do it without harm in 30 minutes.
    good iron phosphate can charge in 15 minutes.
    some batteries have claimed 1 minute recharge ability.
    saying it takes 3 hours to recharge is dishonest.

    and EEStor is a scam. they’ve lied so many times about deadlines now that it can’t be real. and they’re even dishonest about the delays. there is no reason for the secrecy and they’ve never even demonstrated a prototype let alone demoed in a car. so..


  118. […] [Source: GM-Volt.com] […]


  119. 119
    kirk

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    Dec 15th, 2009 (3:44 pm)

    Exciting times in battery news…….many claims of breakthroughs
    sooner or later there is bound to be some due to all the increased research in battery technology……….
    I hoping EEStor is successful soon or
    Microbubble Technologies (ECOLOCAP) carbon nanotube lead acid battery or ERRA’s YESS battery (nickel Hydrogen)
    all claiming breakthroughs……….10x capacity of lead acid, quick 10 minute recharges and long life


  120. 120
    Nixon of the Lizard People

     

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    Dec 15th, 2009 (3:58 pm)

    Herm: …Level 2 = 240VAC at 70A (the new J1772 connector will handle this)… Level 2 can do 60 miles.  

    The solution sounds pretty simple to me if the problem is the individual connector electrical transfer capacity. Do like I do when I’m filling up my dual tank diesel truck. Use 2 pumps! I pull up perpendicular to the end of a set of pumps and grab one handle from each side of the pump and pump both tanks at the same time. Doubles my refueling rate. No problem.

    If you are charging at 60 miles every 60 minutes using just a single lowly level 2 connector that every sane person would agree is perfectly safe, 10 connections will give you 100 miles of range in 10 minutes.

    Jump up to a 480 volt 3-phase connector (which in reality is just as safe) and you cut the number of connections and increase the number of miles you can charge in 10 minutes to a completely reasonable amount of time and connections.

    All you have do to is design whatever you are charging to be charged in parallel instead of in series, and provide connections for multiple off-board charging units that connect to multiple banks of whatever it is you are charging.

    There is no need to have huge single connectors when a couple of smaller connectors can work perfectly fine. Leave all the heavy electrical connections somewhere in the back of the charging station. It is no more a hazard than the electricity distribution that feeds hundreds of houses in a subdivision all at the same time today.

    Yawn….


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    Robert K

     

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    Dec 27th, 2009 (10:17 am)

    Christmas has come and passed


  122. 122
    Ant

     

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    Jan 1st, 2010 (7:35 pm)

    I’ve heard the (allegedly) leaked interview with Dick Weir in which he claims they (Eestor) has begun assembling modular production lines. It has also been independently confirmed that Eestor has requested UL certification of its technology. Then there is the fact that they’ve purchased the rights to what I believe us the largest barium titanate mines in the U.S. Obviously, at the time of this writing (Jan 01, 2010) 2009 has come and gone and still no Eestor ESU’s. Still, I think there’s a good chance that they will deliver working ESUs soon — otherwise, what’s the point of having bought the mines?