The whole point of driving an electric car is to drive without the use of gasoline. For the car to get that energy, it has to be plugged into an outlet daily for a significant period of time.
The time to charge a car fully depends on several things: the size of its battery, the current and voltage available to it, and the capability of its charger.
The Volt, for example, has 8 kwh of usable energy in its battery, and the maximum charge power allowed is 3.3 kw.
It’s important to know the following formula: POWER (WATTS) = VOLTS x AMPERES.
Thus for the Chevy Volt at 220 Volts: 3300 watts =220 volts x 15 amps. The time to obtain 8kwh of charge is then 8000 wh/3300 watts = 2.42 hours. The 110 volt 12 amp charger at household current of 110 volts would take: 110 volts x 12 amps = 1320 watts, and thus 8000 wh/1320 w = 6 hours. The available 8 amp option for a non dedicated circuit would take 8000 wh/880 w =9 hours.
The MINI E has a a 35 kwh battery of which 28 kwh are usable. At 110 volts and 12 amps: 28000/1320 = 21 hours 12 minutes, and for the Nissan LEAF with 24 kwh and 19.2 kwh usable, 14 hours and 33 minutes.
So though the Volt is manageable if only using standard 110 volt household current, a pure EV may not be.
And that’s part of the problem for their adoption, explains a CNN article in which I was quoted.
As BMW found out with its MINI-E field trial there are significant barriers to installing 240 Volt garage chargers. They can’t be legally installed by do-it-yourselfers, but have to be hard-wired into the house by licensed electricians and receive approval by local municipalities. Those rules vary widely state by state and town by town, and right now in some cases can take a frustrating number of weeks or even months.
All of us early adopters are likely to be forgiving and patient with this process, as I was accurately descibed as being in the CNN piece. The general population might not be so acquiescent.
This is why automakers like GM and Nissan are going out of their way to make sure initial rollout areas are prepared to manage this process swiftly and painlessly for consumers.
Part of this plug-in readiness planning is the introduction of some public chargers as well. These will be essential for apartment-dwellers but for many people they will act more as a placebo for range anxiety. Drivers will be made to feel comfortable having them there, but likely won’t use them. 80% of prospective buyers expect only to charge at home.
Source (CNN)
This entry was posted on Saturday, December 12th, 2009 at 9:05 am and is filed under Charging. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:09 am)I have a 220V line ready to be adapted, but a 6 hour charge time is certainly not a problem for me. It’ll be overnight anyway after-all. Initially, I’ll be using a regular outlet until the funds are available to upgrade.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+4
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:16 am)Another pragmatic reason why the Volt will triumph where pure BEV utopias just wont become a reality for a while. I just don’t see hundreds of thousands of people a year willing to jump through these kinds of hoops and expense just to be able to drive a LEAF that costs them $150 just for the battery lease and has such limited range.
Once batteries are fine with taking ultra quick charges, ie 350kW, then we can just charge up at a quick charge stations, that’ll be a great day, but for now, I’ll take an EREV.
+3
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:20 am)I wish GM and Nisson would unlink their arms on this public charger initiative because it keeps diminishing the advantage the Volt has over the LEAF. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+4
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:31 am)220V is not such a big deal,its already in every garage that has a welder or a large air compressor. Also a lot of home electric panels are already located in the garage.
Almost Every home in america uses either a 220volt electric cloths dryer,an electric hot water heater or an electric stove. For some reason it don’t seem to be a big deal to have those wired up.
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:34 am)Its a fair trade-off a one time charge to install a 220 outlet in your garage vs being gauged at the gas pump on a regular basis.
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:36 am)It should cost from $125 -$250 to have a 220V outlet installed in your garage Any more than that and your being ripped off,which is not unusual.
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:38 am)My understanding is that the charger itself may be an additional cost – it’s not just a matter of wiring, you have to buy the charger. Kinda like any other accessory. (I may be wrong on this, and hope I am)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:39 am)I do have a 240 volt panel in the garage, but will have to put in an outlet, probably both a 240 and a 120. The Volt charging port is on the left side, right? Also, and I feel sure that Lyle knows the answer to this, but I am sure that I heard a GM presenter explaining that the charger was built into the Volt and that it works with any power source available. So why a difficult 240 volt source that cannot be done by do it yourselfers? Is it that the new standard plug is so complicated just with the safety interlocks that it is not just a matter of connecting it to the power? Still, it does not seem like it should be that difficult. Does it have to be wired to a modem for connection to the internet? Even that should not be so bad. Even if I’m not allowed to do it, I am curious as to exactly what is installed. Oh, and what is the length of the chord? I.E. does the outlet have to be installed on the left side of the car? Can it be installed in the front wall? What about a 2 car garage? Can it be installed so the car can be charged from either slot?
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:45 am)I know they have been saying that the Volt will be able to sense what kind of power it’s plugged into, but I don’t know if the 220 charger is actually built into the car.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:46 am)Great post, thanks. Do these numbers imply that people renting apartments will not be able to charge an EV or plugin?
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:48 am)They’d need to have access to an outlet near their parking place. There are new companies that install “secure” outlets.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:51 am)Don’t forget in Southern California a few miles inland everone has Central AC & it runs on 220 VAC. The issue will be if you need to run your AC at night while your Nissan Leaf or Volt is charging and whether or not the power lines that currently supply this current to your home can support both simultaneously. Adding another power panel with a separate power meter to get the discounted electric car charging rates and taping off the 220 VAC should not be that complex or costly. If there are any electricians out there who know what the standard current capabilities of 220 wiring on typical houses si that might be helpful in determining if additional power lines woudl have to be pulled to support both, in which case the LEAF could become suddenly very unattractive in the hot regions. At least with a Volt you have the option to run on gas & it takes less time to charge.
+5
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:55 am)The math clearly illustrates why the VOLT is the better choice for your PRIMARY vehicle. If I’m low on charge and stuck in traffic on the 405, it would be comforting to know my generator is with me in the car. ‘Nuff said.
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:59 am)Most electric car owners (including volt owners) will want 220v charging available at their homes, as it speeds up overnight charging and allows owners to take better advantage of daily “opportunity charging” as well. It’s interesting to note here that if you drove 40 miles electric with your volt or 40 miles electric in your leaf, the amount of electricity (and time required to recharge) will be basically the same for both cars. One could also make the argument that a 220v charger is more important for the Volt because you’ll be needing more “quick charges” throughout the day if you want to drive on all electric for more than 40 miles.
There is little, if any, “advantage volt” here on the 220v charger scenario, as any “advantage” gained by the volt also means that there was a corresponding “disadvantage” of burning gasoline.
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:04 am)Which is precisely why I can’t understand GM’s constant linking up with Nisson about all this infrastructure.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:09 am)I’m still waiting for any news on a south american release… most of us have 220V outlets ready!
+3
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:09 am)I guess I’m in the minority then because if it requires an additional investment to install a *proprietary* charger, I’d just assume use a 120 outlet.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:12 am)That helps us in North America put our wait in perspective!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:24 am)I suppose there is that minority group of electric car owners that would rather buy gasoline than buy a charger.
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:26 am)You mean the minority that drives more than 40 miles a day?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:28 am)That’s just one more feather in the Volt’s proverbial cap…you don’t HAVE to use a 220 dedicated circuit, it’s still feasible to use a 110 outlet. I’m going to charge once a night, so the fact that it takes 6 hours is not big deal. If I want it accomplished in 2 hours, then maybe I’ll consider calling an electrician.
+5
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:29 am)Regarding charging a Volt/Ampera using 240V or 120V, I will always opt for slow charging because I’ve found it to be less stressful to batteries during the “chemical reforming” (recharging) process. Also, high charging rates often result in exothermic (heat producing) reactions that can cause self heating, which in turn can reduce battery life. Cell phone & lap top Li-Ion batteries are therefore usually “trickle charged” to minimize self heating ….therefore maximizing battery life.
Thus the much larger batteries needed by Tesla, Leaf, i-MiEV, Mini-E and other BEVs are therefore at an inherent disadvantage. As a practical matter a BEV’s batteries normally have to be recharged at a higher rate and/or more often than the Volt’s much smaller battery ….merely to achieve a full charge overnight. Although seldom if ever discussed, this is another reason the Volt’s battery should outlast those used in BEVs.
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:30 am)While a great advantage for the Volt will be that it doesn’t need 240V, most owners will want a fast charger. It has its benefits and it’s well faster. That’s the American Way.
Wiring for a charger outlet is not so simple, depending on the layout of the house. The worst case is having the panel at one end of the house and the garage at the other. In this case the estimate in SoCal is that it might take $3K to install a faster charger.
One product which will help – and an interesting investment play if you could get it – is a product which will be announced shortly that which allows EVs and clothes dryers to share a 240 outlet. This is a big deal because it turns out that a lot of people have 240 outlets in their garages for dryers. If it works then this will help a great deal with the infrastructure. The electric utilities are excited about this.
FWIW the cables on the J1772 connectors are a step up from what we’re used to. The cable itself is quite think, maybe two or three times the diameter of a outside yard electrical cord, but it’s very supple. Easier to handle than a standard yard cord. I was shocked when I played with the first one. Nice engineering!
+3
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:31 am)We are all ready for our VOLT, our 200 amp 240 volt panel is right next to where the driver’s door will be in the garage. Three years ago when When I designed and built our solar generating system we incorporated provisions into the original plans and permit for a 50 amp. 240volt single phase outlet right next to our 3 KW inverter that the solar array feeds into. Since then we have designed 6KW and 10KW systems for neighbors who hired contractors to install them. Our shop that is 8 miles away already has outlets for welders and machine tools.
Now we are just waiting for the VOLT to become available here in Las Vegas NV, the “SOLAR POWER” state.
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:31 am)Here in Ontario, all houses have 240 volt 100 amp service. In a previous home, I had the service upgraded to 200 amps. The city wiring to the house was already rated at 200 amps so I only had to pay $1000 for a new panel to be installed (including a little extra wiring). There was no hassle permit wise, just applied and instantly granted. Don’t understand why anyone should have to wait for days or weeks for a permit for something so simple.
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:35 am)I am hoping they can continue to work together to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and the American people will benefit, not just one company.
+3
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:47 am)EREVs certainly have many advantages.
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:48 am)If GM was on a more stable financial footing, I’d agree with you. Promoting the misinformation that the Volt requires additional infrastructure does nothing to help the success of the Volt. If GM “goes under” you’re back to only the LEAF (or at least one less company) saving dependence on foreign oil (which most of us want to do).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+5
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:49 am)Happily you won’t need to be so cautious. Everything you’re saying holds true for consumer electronic batteries, but batteries for EVs are somewhat different. In the case of the Volt, the engineers at GM have avoided recharging issues the same way they’ve many battery issues — by operating in the middle of the cells. Also note that the heat issues you’re referring to mostly occur at higher SOCs. Even most BEVs, which won’t have the luxury of only operating in the middle of the cells, will mitigate the problem by leaving about a 15% buffer at the top (needed for breaking anyway). They’ll probably also have trickle charging kick in before they reach that point.
So if we wake up early one morning and realize we’ve forgotten to plug the car in, we can safely just use 240 to charge to get at least some charge before heading out without worrying about shortening the life of the battery!
+3
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:50 am)I would tend to disagree. Sometimes cooperating with our neighbors is the right thing to do, even if it diminishes our own relative advantage vis-à-vis our competitors.
Besides, a coherent electric car infrastructure will benefit whoever is a leader in electric cars. GM is betting that will include themselves. That kind of confidence is a good thing.
Remember VHS vs. Beta. Beta was the superior product, but lost in the end because consumers like widely-used standards.
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:50 am)Actually, if you want to charge in 6 hours you will still likely have to call an electrician. If you want to charge in 8 hours, then you won’t. 12 amp 110v charging is only available with a dedicated circuit. Most home owners do not have a dedicated circuit (i.e. one plug to one breaker) in their garage.
/Lyle’s paragraph here is mixing terms (i.e. 8 amp vs 12 amp):
“Thus for the Chevy Volt at 220 Volts: 3300 watts =220 volts x 15 amps. The time to obtain 8kwh of charge is then 8000 wh/3300 watts = 2.42 hours. The 110 volt 8 amp charger at household current of 110 volts would take: 110 volts x 12 amps = 1320 watts, and thus 8000 wh/1320 w = 6 hours.”
// It should read: Thus for the Chevy Volt at 220 Volts: 3300 watts =220 volts x 15 amps. The 110 volt “12″ amp charger (dedicated circuit option) at household current of 110 volts would take: 110 volts x 12 amps = 1320 watts, and thus 8000 wh/1320 w = 6 hours.
///More detail here in Kissel’s comments:
“Gery Kissel: The 8-amp charge rate is available in case you are plugged into a non-dedicated circuit. It is selected by push button on the cord set.”
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:55 am)Thanks for the clarification. It helped my understanding of it. We have a lot of knowledgeable folks on this site.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:55 am)You can’t look at EVs in the same way as you do conventional cars, at least not at this point. The Volt needs the Leaf and they both need some friends. GM has been very clear that getting costs down depends on creating an eco system of EV suppliers. That won’t happen until you more EVs coming off production lines, which is why GM has said that it can’t by itself make EVs a mainstream product.
The Leaf is more a partner than a competitor. In some ways neither will prosper without the other.
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:58 am)I thought the ‘charger’ is part of the car and the 220v or 110v connection is just a cable/wire. Although the cable/wire has special connectors, it’s just wire.
I think the connector itself has a facility to cut off the juice if it’s not plugged in to a device (in this case Volt) that has the proper connector. IOW, if the connector is laid on the ground, there is no way to electro-friggin-cute yourself.
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:58 am)Point taken. (I still don’t like the misinformation though)(g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:00 am)I don’t know that the Leaf (or other BEV’s) are “requiring” that you buy a 220v charger.
Again, if you drive your Leaf or your Volt less than 40 miles a day, then you’re charging requirements AND time to charge will be basically the same, regardless of whether you’re charging on 110v or 220v.
/you’re welcome
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:02 am)Only one of us is correct. I think that the charger may be an add-on accessory, but I may be wrong. I wonder if Lyle’s Mini-e’s charger was an add-on or whether it was included in the cost of the car?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:03 am)That’s exactly what I meant. I can get away with 120 and still not burn gas.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:06 am)Whether a circuit is dedicated is only important if you have two or more devices drawing power from it. There isn’t any difference between a dedicated and shared circuit if there is only one device plugged into the circuit. Many of us will know that because lots of teenage girls have 3000W hairdryers but you normally *don’t* have to reset the breaker. LOL
I’d think most houses will have 12 or 15 amp circuits and there won’t be any devices drawing power during the night on that circuit when the Volt is charging. Maybe some people will need to toss that old frig that sits in the garage cooling two six packs, but that would benefit them anyway. (People have no idea how much those old things cost to run).
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:12 am)Tagamet, why do you think they have their arms linked? the way , I see it they are in competition for attention, and both want the infrastructure spread around the country. GM will eventually be selling a pure EV (BEV) and will need charging stations to satisfy their customers as well. GM is joining in on the study being done by DOE; with OnStar, they are in an ideal position to participate and get paid for it. Unlike Nissan, which is reaching out to municipalities like Seattle, and others, to obtain the grant from DOE. The only benefit that Nissan gets from participation in the study is penetration of the market. I am curious about your reasoning on this issue. Would appreciate your thoughts and sharing it with the group for further discussion. TIA.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:13 am)As an FYI, it is a requirement, though since you get it installed for free perhaps not a big deal, unless you need to upgrade the service to your house, which isn’t included in the free install.
I don’t think BEVs are realistic without at least 220.
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:15 am)This is a very important point, and unfortunately a lot of people here and elsewhere don’t realize or understand it.
The size of your charging connection (volts and amps) and the time required to charge has nothing to do with the size of the battery in the car, or whether it is an BEV or EREV etc. But it has everything to do with how far you drive every day.
-3
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:21 am)I here what you’re saying, but…..
That’s a fairly expensive charger, an expensive car, and a house.. .. all now riding on a $13 CB. I wouldn’t advise anyone to knowingly set themselves in a situation where they are (or could) pop CB’s.
I bet GM’s going to have you sign something that says you void warranties if you don’t charge according to their instructions/code.
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:21 am)One of the *huge* distinctions – and selling points – for the Volt is that it needs no additional infrastructure. Too many people already believe that the Volt stops after 40 miles. Let’s not add to that misinformation. Let’s ROAR about the fact that it doesn’t strand you short of a charging port.
I understand the need for more parts suppliers for electric vehicles (ala DonC) as the way to bring down the price and I do support that idea. I just don’t like the Volt diminished, as a way to promote something that *may* happen in later generations. As I tend to say, Let’s Just Get the Volt’s Wheels on the Road! JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:21 am)You are among the fortunate, Randy! There still are many places in the nation that do not have adequate wiring to just install 220V chargers. then there are those living in apartments whose owners may not want to incur the expense of making the modifications necessary to install them.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:25 am)This is yet another reason why an EREV is such an important configuration for the near term. It forces the issue with municipalities to determine what homeowners can do and how, but it doesn’t hold up the sale of these vehicles in the interim. Someone who purchases a Volt today can charge their car, albeit slowly, and have a full charge overnight, and still have additional range, should they need it.
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:28 am)Excellent point.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:33 am)why cant the charger be on board? then i could plug into a common 220v dryer outlet anywhere.
+8
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:35 am)Here is another “EV” item…..
This morning in Central Alberta, Canada…my outside thermometer read -33.5 C (-28.3 F)… Darn Cold !
My 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid was plugged in (no garage) to keep the engine relatively warm… I went out to start the car… the engine started… ran for a couple of seconds and then shut down….
2 wrentch lights came on…a small one and a big one.
Oh oh..
I figured maybe the battery was needing a boost to keep the car running.
I put my battery charger on the system… to help get things going.
The manual says that you can hook up to the 12 volt battery and charge the battery for 5 minutes or so and try starting the car. I used the boosting 75CA circuit of the charger to charge it up quickly.
After 15 minutes of starting and stalling (you have no control over the gas pedal as this is a hybrid and the electronics of the battery control everything.)…still will not keep running.
I figured that there must be a frozen relay somewhere…. On the 2010 Fusion Hybrid there are air vents under the back seat to help heat and cool the battery ..
The car engine was throwing a little heat into the cabin of the car by now but not much…
I got my 750 Watt Space heater ( just a little thing ) plugged it in and placed it on the floor of the back seat in front of the vents..
I came back 15 minutes later… Car started right up and ran just fine..
I guess a little Ingenuity can remedy some situations.
I am just glad that I have a bit of a mechanical / electronic skills..
GM… I hope that the batteries in the Volt are capable of handling this type of cold weather….
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:38 am)By participating in the study, GM will get plenty of free publicity for the Volt. Every article about GM in the study will be one more time the news will carry information about what the Volt can do that a BEV can’t. Just like this topic today when people begin to compare just prior to buying one or the other, they will have heard over and over in the news that the Volt doesn’t have a problem with the amount of time it takes to charge up, that it doesn’t have a problem with range anxiety, and all the other advantages that all of us discuss here on a regular basis. By GM being in the study, more articles will be written and that will spread the word on everything the Volt can do that a BEV like the Leaf can’t.
True, the Volt doesn’t need infrastructure for travel near home but what do you do when you are traveling. The convenience of having charging stations to go to equally applies to the Volt under these circumstances .
GM sees their participation as win, win, win! They will gain exposure through participating in the study. I see it as one more great sign that the Volt will prove out to be the better choice for all buyers. Nissan has an uphill climb to make the Leaf a success. Much more difficult than GM will ever have.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:39 am)ME TOO!
bbl,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:42 am)On this we agree.
Gotta scoot, bbl.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-2
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:43 am)If they require me to have a charger in my garage, then I won’t be able to buy one, because I DONT HAVE A GARAGE, AND NOBODY I KNOW DOES.
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:45 am)I agree with you on this factor, Randy! I wonder how much the owners of charge station will charge?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:47 am)Lyle. Dude. Ya need to paint that garage wall.
I have to disagree with folks that think infrastructure is not important for Volt.
- apartment dwellers
- acceptance/adoption of electrics by the general public
- less hassle factor if GM is working with electric companies to facilitate getting in-garage infrastructure correctly installed.
- momentum. – all vendors working together will make electrics viable for more people. It all needs to be ‘normal’.
What we really need is some sort of wireless (WiFi) charging. Just park the car over the charge-loop or near the WiFi and you’re done.
For now, gasoline is way more ‘normal’ and easier to use. It’s going to take GM, Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, electric providers and governments all working together to make electrics happen in any meaningful way.
The first step is plug-in hybrids or E-REVs. In this way we get people used to plugging in, but, they are not left without transportation if they forget.
A BEV would be the next step, but, would definitely need 240v to work efficiently. It would be a bad thing if all these new cars had very different ways of charging. You also wouldn’t want to have to upgrade the electrical (again) when switching from EREV to BEV. (GM will eventually have BEVs).
GM should push 240v simply because you only have to do it once.
If you have two electrics you would want to coordinate charging so that both are not charging at the same time. 240v being much faster would help here. Yes, I can see eventually having 2 Volts!
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:55 am)I am not an electrician but have worked side by side with a few on houses that I have built. It depends on the service to your house. One quick way to see if its adeguate is to look at your panel and see if their are any slots left for a circuit breaker. If a new 220V line most be run from your panel to the spot where your hookup is located, you will have to determine if there is sufficient amperage left. If not your service will need upgrading which will be an additional cost.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (12:02 pm)The advantage the Volt has lies in its ability to use ordinary 110V service to charge in much shorter times than its competitors so far do not have the ability to do.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (12:02 pm)More confusion than information in this thread. The “battery charger” is located on board the Volt, it is the device that converts the alternating current from the wall socket, at either 110 volts or 220 volts to direct current at the voltage needed to charge the battery.
So what is this big box located on the wall of the garage. And why does Lyle refer to the installation of a 220 Volt outlet in the garage as the installation of a 220 Volt garage charger.
We have see many pictures of the end of the cord that connects to the Volt, lets see a picture of the other end(s) that connect to either a 110 socket or a very different 220 socket!
As far as installing a 220 outlet, I would need a building permit ($$) a city approved Electrician (licensed by the city) and the materials (conduit and wire) to run from the power panel where the power comes to the house and the garage location. Now if I need to buy some special gizmo for the Volt connecting cord to connect to, that is news to me.
Dec 12th, 2009 (12:03 pm)I appreciate the comment about the rate of charge not affecting the life of the battery in EVs since I also assumed that slower charging was always preferred. I have also wondered about the actual plug in connection. For 110 is it the standard three prong plug that we use. And what about 220 connections? There are a lot of different plug in configurations. How are all the different possibilities handled by the Volt charger? Do you always have to have a specific setup installed before you can begin charging?
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (12:12 pm)Lyle, didn’t you say you plugged in at your friends house one time? Wasn’t that at 120VAC?
Can I stop at my friend’s house and plug my Volt in a 120VAC outlet using the cord in the trunk?
I dont see myself putting in 220VAC charger. Overnight charging is good enough for me. Not saying this wont change after driving my Volt for a few months. Time will tell.
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (12:19 pm)Daily drives to local businesses are usually less than 20 miles round trip and will leave a partial charge in the battery. Plugging in to a 110v outlet for 3 or 4 hours will recharge the battery to near full. For most owners, 110v will work just fine. The 300+ miles range of E85 or gasoline is an instant option.
=D~
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (12:21 pm)Sorry I don’t agree. The availability of public charging stations will ultimately help the acceptance of all electric vehicles, including the Volt. Having public charging stations available is another good reason for purchasing a Volt. Why drive 40 miles and use $3.00 worth of gas when you could recharge and use $1.00 of electricity?
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (12:24 pm)I bet a lot of licensed electricians would gladly sign up with their local GM dealers to install 220V chargers at a modest flat fee (maybe $125)… who would pass up on easy, steady work?
I can’t imagine dealers selling any electric car WITHOUT including the charger and installation as part of the standard package.
I know that many people can’t imagine life without a garage, but in the south most people park their cars in the driveway. All those chargers will need to be weather-proof post installations next to the driveway.
Dec 12th, 2009 (12:31 pm)IMHO, that is not true. The economics of the situation will dictate that there be a shift to electric transportation. Having a choice is better because competition will drive the price down rather than one company having a monopoly. Nissan chose it cities for the Leaf based on municipalities that were progressive in installing infrastructure for EV technology. They partnered with those cities that pursued the DOE grants to install charging stations and participate in the national study. Both Nissan and GM are merely taking advantage of the administrations desire to provide the infrastructure to speed the shift to an electric economy. Sorry, I don’t think they are partners at all.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (12:56 pm)This link was given in previous comment about charging at 12 Amp or 8 Amp rates:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
The photo shows that both use the same connector: therefore the circuitry will determine which voltage is being used. The 220V home charge unit will be mounted on a wall to where the 220V service is connected. The article states that it is optional. The standard Volt has the 110 Volt charger under the hood.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:03 pm)carcus, Nissan plans include 4,700 Level 2 chargers installed in owner’s homes. At the end of the study, the owners will get the chargers for free. I have include here a link with information on the “EVProject” for your information:
http://seattlecan.org/downloads/080509_FAQ_DOE_Ecotality_eTec.pdf
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:06 pm)Just the idea of being in control of “fueling” up my car without having to go to a gas station is mind blowing! Not to mention that it gets me off dirty oil!
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:19 pm)Actually, the size of the battery and the time to charge are related: the bigger Kw battery will take longer to charge. You are correct about everything else.
That the Volt has a smaller battery than the Leaf and other BEV’s is why it can be charged overnight using just an 110V outlet, something that the others are unable to do. True the others don’t have to be fully charged to give the same range. With slight exceptions in total range from a given KW charge, all EvVs should go about the same distance. The slight variation between them would result from different electrical loses in the circuitry and different motors being used.
Yet the Volt does have an advantage over the others since is able to be charged overnight without a fast charger. Not everyone will be able to purchase, or install a 220V chargers immediately. The lucky people that have 200 Amp service with an available slot for a dedicated 220V line will no doubt purchase the optional 220V charger at time of vehicle purchase. Others will do it after they buy their Volt. Under mass distribution, many will only opt for 110V charging that comes with the standard Volt package.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:27 pm)Larry; You are right. The Volt (or pure electric cars) will offer qualified electricians or small electical companies opportunities for new business. An offer of a complete package including all permits, inspections, material and installation,at a reasonable price, will pull in a lot of business. An opportunity I maybe would explore if I wasn’t 20 years into retirement. I will probably do my own as a simple 220 volt extension from my existing load center breaker box.
+4
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:30 pm)As an electrician I thought I’d chime in…
If you have a 200A service and your panel is in the garage then a 220V charger makes sense.
-Pipe from panel over to wall charger
-Breakers + splicing
Done!
Say $300 for labor + parts.
(You’ll need an inspection but that’s easy)
BUT…
If you have your panel anywhere else, or a full panel, maxed out/60-100A service then things get costly.
-Pipe to garage (cut open drywall, drill through beams/studs)
-Patch damage
-Add sub-panel (if main one is full)
-New service
All of these take hours and hours! It’s not easy and the bills start to add up quickly. One to two days worth of work w/2 guys can easly come in at $2000-$3000
That’s assuming there are no surprises in the wall/panel. Then, get it inspected just to find out your inspector doesn’t pass it due to “???”
This is why when BMW (& GM w/the EV1) thought “oh heck it’ll be a few hundred bucks to install these things” they got a big surprise
No two houses are the same.
In Vancouver Canada we now have a code rule that states “all new homes must have a pipe from the panel to the garage for future EV’s”.
$200-$400 up front vs. $2000-$3000 later (on a $800,000 home). This race way can also be used for any other addition down the road… hot tub, A/C unit, grow opp?!
My two cents…
(I wanted to clarify why these thing can cost so much since I find most people miss trust the trades)
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:31 pm)Bee,
Don’t worry! The standard volt has a 110V charger under the hood. All you need to do is connect the cord to the 110V and plug it into the Volt. Go to this link for more information on the chargers.
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:31 pm)OT, but here is a link to the short Volt test drive for Fox News:
http://video.foxnews.com/12300381/chevy-volt-first-drive
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:42 pm)Another reason I can see for fast charging is the Utility window for low power rates.
If the window (for whatever reason) is only from midnight to 6 am, you can’t get your entire 8 hour charge completed during the reduced rate period.
As far as 240 V wiring, in my house I have 4 – 240 V lines. The dryer, the range, the water pump (in the well) and a line to the garage for a welder (by former owner). Each is essentially two (2) circuit breakers mechanically tied together so that both must go on or off together.
Since I don’t have a welder, I used the line to the garage for a generator connection. So when we lose power (more often than in many other locales), I can run a 240 V line from the genset to the connection in the garage, which then goes to a transfer switch, and then to my breaker box. I wired the connection in myself, with directions from the local electrical supplier.
Connecting in a dedicated 240 V box is probably not that difficult, however, local codes and such may prevent you from doing this youself.
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:47 pm)I didn’t know where to begin so I blocked your whole statement.
First, only the 110V charger is on board. The optional 220V charger can be seen at this link;
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
It would be mounted where you instruct your electrician to locate the 220V service.
I am not sure what the picture in this article represents but you can clearly see from the above link what the 220V charger looks like and its related connector. The 220V charger only has one connector, the one plugged into the Volt. The 110V caddy cable has the same connector to plug into the Volt; the cord appears to have a three prong connector at the other end to plug into a 110V outlet.
I hope this helps.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-1
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:54 pm)120 Volts is not 110 and 240 Volts is not 220 – get with it Oh Most knowledgeable ones.
Typical electric range has a 50 amp breaker and could deliver 40A x .240kV = 9.6kW per hour if the batteries could take it.
Plenty of room for BEV development – don’t you fret.
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:57 pm)I have included a link to Charging the Chevy Volt here earlier. But here it is again:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
The article should answer most of your questions. The optional 220V charger which mounts on a wall has only one connector that plugs into the Volt which is the same as the 110V connector. See the comments I have posted earlier if you haven’t already.
Again I hope this helps you and everyone else on this topic.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:57 pm)Southern California Edison is going all out to help get EV owners get ready to charge their vehicles. Take a look at this detailed information and be sure to click on all 4 pages of data!
Overview
Get Plug-In Ready
Rate & Charging Options
Planning For The Future
http://www.sce.com/PowerandEnvironment/ElectricTransportation/PEV/overview.htm
My two favorite sentences:
“We do anticipate the need to reinforce the distribution system in some neighborhoods that have large numbers of plug-in vehicle owners and faster, higher-voltage charging systems.”
“Charging at Level Three is done with a 480-volt connection. It is the fastest charging method available and is used for commercial charging.”
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:59 pm)An electric hot water heatrer draws more current than even the 220 version of volt chargers so whats the big deal.
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:59 pm)Well-put clarification. You should write manuals for electronics like multi-device remote controls!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (1:59 pm)Simply said, the answer to your question is YES!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:05 pm)I live in the south and have a car port which is now enclosed with wrought iron. The Volt cord looks to be long enough to stretch from under the car port to where the Volt would be parked. For many people this may not work and the instillation you describe would be required. The 220V in that circumstance would require some sort of enclosure next to the driveway.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-3
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:08 pm)Imagine the cost of installation multiple 30A 220 VAC service in an apartment complex with 100 or more car stalls. That’s common in most cities. Even in the most recently erected apt complexes that’s close to needing a full-blown substation. For the oldest apt complexes the cost would rival or exceed the complex real estate value. And that’s just the beginning. In my Northern Cal. city its about 50-50 single dwellings vs. apt complexes. Given the 2010-2012 time frame there’s just no way. Sooo… what-to-do what-to-do? Simple. GM must make a conscious decision to provide driver control over the VOLT’s ER ICE genny. Put another way, GM now limits, based on recent reports, the ER charge to about 20%-35% SOC – thereby forcing an outlet charge. However, GM could just as well provide driver options; one being the present automatic limitations. The other being the driver instructs the ER ICE to 85% SOC.
The buying public is just not going to subscribe at least willingly to waiting 8-20 hrs for restoring SOC each driving day.
-1
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:10 pm)The primary competition will be between ICE cars and EVs. Not Volt vs Leaf. Not for another decade, anyway.
While the lazy bums will crib about getting a new charger installed etc. – I’m sure they will crib for more when required to pay upward of $4 at the pump. The gap between demand and supply of oil will again push up the oil prices once the recovery starts.
BTW, for the first few thousand Nissan Leaf owners, the charger will be installed free.
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:14 pm)Randy, the issue is safety. that is why there is only one connector coming out of the optional 220V wall mounter charger. No current flows in the charger cable until it is plugged in, eliminating any possibility of electrocution. It required under the electrical code.
Happy trails to yo ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:31 pm)Thank you my friend. I used to write user interfaces for data input to computer databases. Had a great job doing many phases of the business; often told that there was no way to program this or that.
and always had fun dealing with those who were uninformed about what could and couldn’t be done.
Be well, my friend. We are living at an exciting juncture for the automobile.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:32 pm)Without getting too far ahead (Chevy Volts won’t be available in Iowa for a few more years it seems), what are the ramifications if a family had more than one Chevy Volt or an additional BEV? At our house we have a two car garage. Using two chargers simultaneously – say for overnight charging – what would that be like as far as taxing the house’s electrical system?
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:33 pm)Having more charging infrastructure helps the Volt some and the Leaf a lot. The status quo damages the leaf much than the Volt.
Pick your poison. Small kingdom staked out in a rapidly changing landscape. Or a growing share in a rapidly expanding universe. Hint…Despots and thugs always pick the first one, successful capitalists mainly pick the second one.
Our economies are interconnected, if people in Japan and France do better, there is usually an opportunity for the US to do better also. It’s when you’re dealing with despots thugs and looters that this falls apart.
-2
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:38 pm)Great question. Might have to have a rotation of which car gets the high powered charger. Especially if the house was built before the 1980’s. If a lot of houses on the block have this, I doubt the service transformers will be up to their needs.
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:42 pm)the first Mitsubishi iMievs are out in England, follow one of the first guy to get one:
http://twitter.com/bobbyllew
“Car is sweet. So smooth, quiet, fast, cheap to drive. Will report on range, charge times etc when I’ve driven it a bit more.”
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:43 pm)It doesn’t really matter for the Volt since with its relatively small battery, the Chevy Volt can be charged from a 110 outlet overnight!
A 220V is nice for the Volt since it reduces the charging time down to 3 hours or so but it is certainly not required. However, a 220V outlet IS required for full-sized pure EVs as Lyle knows well with his Mini-E.
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:48 pm)” They can’t be legally installed by do-it-yourselfers, but have to be hard-wired into the house by licensed electricians and receive approval by local municipalities.”
THIS IS FALSE. You can legally install a 220V charger by yourself. However, you do need to pull the permits and get it inspected just like an electrician does.
But it is true that the vast majority of people are too incompetent or frightened to do it by themselves. And articles like this one that provide FALSE information to people do dissuade some people that could to it by themselves. So I would appreciate a correction.
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:56 pm)I agree Tag. I’ve got to believe that GM knows that consumers are going to see the clear advantage of Volt over Leaf. But maybe GM is actually looking further downstream toward a time where BEV’s will have a significant role to play. Heck, even if BEV’s are only second cars that gives opportunity to GM. For now, the Volt is the far superior choice both for consumers and for manufacturers. In the meantime it will be interesting to see how BEV’s fare in the handsof consumers. Actually it could turn very bad if Leaf is a total disaster. The best thing for GM would be for Leaf to be successful, but have a tough and expensive growth curve.
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:56 pm)Just a problem in the US.
In Germany 230 VAC / 16 Amps is standard.
And a lot of people even have a 3-phase 400V AC with 16 Amps in their garage.
3 phase 400V connection with 63 Amps is the standard connection of a single family home, and when you build a new house there is no problem getting more.
Thats why the european standard EV charging connector is also capable of 400V AC / 63 Amps.
Dec 12th, 2009 (2:57 pm)“Wordsmiths” are an endangered species these days (sigh), BUT on the other hand these are truly exciting times (on so many levels).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (3:01 pm)If you get an Aptera, you can have a BEV w/o a 220V charger. But that is only because it is so efficient that it doesn’t need a big battery.
I agree that for any ‘normal’ type of car, you will need 220V to be able to charge the normal-sized car EV in a reasonable amount of time.
Dec 12th, 2009 (3:06 pm)
Dec 12th, 2009 (3:16 pm)I’m 110% pro-electrification of the transportation sector, so I’m pulling for all the BEV’s out there (and those in the pipeline). I don’t want to see any of them fail. As you suggest, the Volt could suffer if the LEAF goes belly up, and yes, maybe the Volt will morph into a BEV at some point. I guess I’m just overly sensitive to anything that could interfere with the process of educating the general public about the differences between EREV’s and BEV’s (and the clear superiority of the former)(g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (3:22 pm)Isn’t this where a company like Coulomb comes in? I think they’ve identified apartment complexes as a market.
Dec 12th, 2009 (3:33 pm)This depends on how large the battery is. If it’s 22kWh then you could be talking 12-16 hours. A more efficient car would of course give you a longer range, but the time it takes to charge the battery is technically independent of how efficient the vehicle is.
The bigger Q might be: Will we ever see an Aptera? At this point discussing how efficient an Aptera 2 might be makes as much sense as talking about how efficient a Hyper Car might be. Until you can actually start testing it’s usually 1 part hype for every 1 part fact. (The claimed and actual efficiency of the Tesla Roadster is a good example of this).
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (3:42 pm)If many homes in the US are willing to pay to hook up a a 240V hot tub, I’m not sure why it would be a problem for most single family homes.
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (3:43 pm)“Will Garage Charger Installation Turn Off Would be Electric Car Buyers?”
Absolutely.
It should be that the Volt can be charged from a regular household 110/220 volt outlet. Theres no need for a special charger.
Dec 12th, 2009 (3:47 pm)It’s simply PR. GM’s feels it’s got to play the game nicely in order to fully shed its tarnished “who killed the electric car” image many people seem to still have.
I think they’ve concluded that the availability of charging stations is going to be slow in coming, given the poor state of the economy and because actual demand potential for EVs is unknown at this point.
I think GM is quietly betting on market demand for the LEAF and other pure EV hopefuls to be too small for government to justify making significant investment in creating charging stations. They realize that high demand for the EREV Volt will likely cause a shift in thinking away from blanketing the nation with charging stations toward thought as to whether they are really necessary on such a grand scale.
-3
Dec 12th, 2009 (3:49 pm)Here in Australia we have 240VAC 50Hz Standard.
Garge has 20Amp supply.
I’m sorry Whats the problem ?
Americans and their inefficient 110VAC – makes me laugh as that’s not real electrcity – plus the fact that you wire your houses with twist on connectors like you would do some low voltage christmas tree lights!
Americans realy need to redo their wiring standards it’s all just really sub par an inefficient – plus the fact your cable core wire have to be larger to handle the same ammount of amps with your lower voltage 110VAC.
Greater Safety? pfftt .. Run decent enough amps through you at 110 and your still good as gone.
Better to go with the World standard of 230VAC, but the US hasn’t got the finicial resources these days to do anything quickly these days – so they will be stuck with this one unless private power companies can come up with a plan or you are lucky in your area
Dec 12th, 2009 (3:52 pm)I get the whole concept of the Volt – so don’t jump on my @$$.
What if one whould have even more limited access to a charger? Could the ICE generator be used to charge the batery to full while driving? How economical would this be? Obiously, electric recharging is optimal, but what if its availability was extremely limited?
Lyle, some of these questions above would make a good Q and A posting.
Thanks much.
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (3:55 pm)And that is the case.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (4:01 pm)As BMW found out with its MINI-E field trial there are significant barriers to installing 240 Volt garage chargers.
*******************************************************************
Lets not make a problem when there is not one. For beginners, those who buy the Volt will easily be able to afford an electrician if they can afford $40,000 for the car. Wiring for 240 volts in the garage will be a lot easier than wiring a dryer because usually the 240 volt service is located in the garage. Most people who buy dryers don’t think much about the cost of wiring knowing the benefits it brings. The same will apply, especially with the Volt, knowing you are denying the Middle East of it’s oil revenue.
Dec 12th, 2009 (4:01 pm)I definitely agree that they have a PR hole to dig their way out of.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (4:16 pm)This to me illustrates that GM has done an EXCELLENT job of anlyzing many factors and has struck a very good balance between not only engineering problems but economic and governmental problems as well. I think the public will see this eventually also. But early adopters are not a good measure of how the general public will react. We as early adopters are already sold. And the range extender will go a very long way to helping the general public embrace EV’s. But it will not be automatic. It will take time. And products like the Leaf will play an important part in the eventaul acceptance of EV’s. Even the Prius has a part to play. BTW, I saw what I assume was a new Prius today. I could see how some might like it, but not me. One more way that GM has really done a good job. Nothing too extreme. I really do hope that the $40K price will make money for them and that it will not go higher.
Dec 12th, 2009 (4:19 pm)Oh, Lyle, please don’t paint your garage.
-2
Dec 12th, 2009 (4:19 pm)If any electrician charges $3k, and I don’t care if the service panel is on the other end of the house, you are getting rip off.
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (4:32 pm)You’ve never seen how big DonC’s house is!!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (4:39 pm)True but if I charge my Volt for 40 miles and need 50 I am still ok but if it is a BEV charged for 40 miles that is all you have. If I charge 6 hrs. with 110 I am ok but Lyle with the MiniE needs 21 hrs for a full chg. on 110 so with 6 hrs he only gets maybe 25-30 miles
Dec 12th, 2009 (5:20 pm)I think THIS is the biggest part of the infrastructure problem. If there are about 10 EV’s on one local transformer then that might be a problem. Multiply that by hundreds of thousands. So, even if the total load on the grid is only 10% more, the load on local transformers could be much more if the loads all come on at the same time in the middle of the night. But then, it still might be less than on a hot day with all A/C’s on.
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (5:44 pm)Stuart,
The government is already begun the installation of charging stations around the nation with grants from DOE:.Phoenix (AZ), Tucson (AZ), San Diego (CA), Portland (OR), Eugene (OR), Corvallis (OR), Seattle (WA), Nashville (TN), Knoxville (TN) and Chattanooga (TN). Visit The EV Project at:
http://www.theevproject.com/
The plan is by 2013 to have the infrastructure in place across the United States. The map on the home page takes time to complete but shows where ECOtality and eTec will begin under the DOE grants. There are more than the five states in which Nissan will start selling the Leaf. In addition, GM has a grant with DOE; it will be interesting to finally find out where they will start selling the Volt. I am wondering if their grant also involves building charging stations. The governments effort to move the economy from carbon based fuel to electricity recognizes that foreign oil (+$26 billion per month) prices will rise in near future as result mainly from China and India, whose populations are over 1 billion strong, demand for oil, and continued expected decline in petroleum production because we have reached peak oil worldwide.
The EV Project does not include cities like Boulder(SmartGridCity), Colorado with its SmartGrid Project.
http://smartgridcity.xcelenergy.com/index.asp
Many cities are moving to deploy infrastructure for improvement of grid and charging stations. also, go to this prior thread here on GM-Volt.com:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/09/27/gm-commits-pre-launch-chevy-volts-to-virginia-utility-companies/
It covers GM’s partnership with utilizes like Dominion and Pepco in Virgina. There are a lot of infrastructure projects under way
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (5:55 pm)What if I don’t have a Garage ?
What if my electric panel isn’t big enough?
What if I don’t have a dedicated circuit ?
What if I don’t have enough money to buy a Votl?
What if only 20 or 30 million people can buy a Volt because of some of the above reasons ?
How’s GM going to sell all those Volts they’re producing ? Will they have to cut production ?
Dec 12th, 2009 (6:02 pm)View post #114 for links covering this topic. The coalition of government, businesses, and utilizes have been addressing this problem as well as others to upgrade the national grid. The installation of Smart Meters is the solution to over-demand on grid from EV charging. The SmatGridCity project in Boulder, Colorado is operational today. “The vehicles will be the focus of an interdisciplinary research project coordinated by the University of Colorado at Boulder Renewable and Sustainable Energy Institute (RASEI), a new joint venture between the U.S. Department of Energy’s National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) and the University of Colorado at Boulder.” The information there is an indication of what utility companies need to put in place to address the problem you mention.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (6:13 pm)GM is only planning on producing 10’s of 1.000’s of Volts in the first two years. 10,000 in 2011; about 50,000 the next year. may here are hopeful that they will increase production above that quantity. I think now that the issue of grid readiness may be the reason for curtailing Volt production at first. If the infrastructure is in place sooner than later, they may revise these plans.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (6:22 pm)Do you think that GM would limit their production of the Volt based on infrastructure? It would seem like there’d have to be a very substantial number on the road in order for that to be a problem – at least an order of magnitude more than they have announced to date.
The last number that I’ve seen quoted was a total of 250,000 electric vehicles (all charging at night), just to soak up the extra electrons available right now.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (6:30 pm)Hey Tag!
I’d bet DonC has a nicely appointed residence that’s as sharp as he is.
(Long workday for me, just got in.)
This particular thread has really been consistently techno-thoughtful all throughout. Posters at this point are really in the “techno-know”, and, I’d like to think that management at GM is increasing impressed with this.
Perhaps while where there are many tens of thousands who are on the
*******************
* Want List *
*******************,
I would also like to think that the technical dedication as well as the GM loyal-tehcnical-support voiced by many posters here might somehow be brought forward for some sort of opportunity. Especially, in the near future for earlier Volt participation (including further contributions, and strong efforts to understand GM’s near-term needs), based on a
********************
* GM Want List *
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+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (6:51 pm)Hi Dan,
Let’s hope that GM takes full advantage of the human resource that Lyle has gathered here! Ignoring it would be a terrible waste and I’m confident that they won’t.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (7:04 pm)Lyle,
Don’t paint the garage, it’s fine the way it is.
Dec 12th, 2009 (7:38 pm)Amazing, simply amazing…
All these people who say they are ready to buy a Volt – “gimme a Volt, I want a Volt today, I’ll volunteer for a test Volt, LJGTVWOTR, etc” – and here they are, COMPLAINING about the $250 – $1000 it costs for dedicated 220V sevice installation.
Volt = $37000 – $40000, remember ? It’s reality check time. If you can’t afford 220V service, what in God’s name makes you think you can afford a Volt, even with a $5000.00 tax rebate ?
OK ahead and -1 me into oblivion if you want – BUT – in your heart, you know it only hurts because it’s true.
Oh, and CA residents – What happens if your energy czars in CA decide to double electric prices again? Your average electric bill is about $500 or more in SOCAL – can you afford $1000 a month, excluding charging your Volt? Can you make your Volt payment ?
Think- after you pay your bills, do you REALLY have enough left to afford a monthly Volt payment ? I suspect if you can easily afford a Volt, you wouldn’t be complaining about the cost of 220V service.
Dec 12th, 2009 (7:53 pm)Long thread and havent had time to read them all. But my answer to the original questions is:
I have always wanted to install my own gas pump but of course that’s out of the question. Now I can do it with something that gives me 40 miles on 80 cents worth of fuel. That’s more than enough to get me through most days driving.
So, yes, bring it on!
Dec 12th, 2009 (7:58 pm)…depends on your rates and if you have a window to charge all night at the lowest rates also.
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:07 pm)You’ve never paid for something that bothered you to come out of pocket for? You’ve never bit the bullet and bought something that you had the money for, but felt you couldn’t really afford? That would make you prudent, prescient, organized, thoughtful and lucky. Or perhaps like so many of us, just plain delusional!
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:11 pm)Will Garage Charger Installation Turn Off Would be Electric Car Buyers?
Yes,, it will. We remember the months it took to get a simple replacement of an electric hot water heater, which involved just the same steps, and an inspection. If it involves the government, it takes a while. I do not look forward to doing that again.
Rather than being so complicated, it needs to be “simple as a dimple”
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:16 pm)Just checked Ebay for “J1772″, nothing. I would think if I went down to Home Depot or Lowes I would not find one either.
I am not an electrician, however I have paid to have my work checked. Typically my work has been better than the existing wiring. So even though a Volt is years away for me, I would like to install a proper Volt outlet. “Oh that is the charger for the Volt, my wife is out shopping” So when a power cable becomes available, I might just buy one to say I have one. So where is the best place to buy the connector?
As for the massive Federal subsidies to study the Volt. Why do they not just read Lyles site. Or subscribe to his twitter account?
With the exception of the charger, my garage looks just like Lyles, needs paint! Oh there is one other difference. Electricity from wind…
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:16 pm)I’ve never been zinged by SCE for $500 but I did have a water line break while I was at work once and LA County water charged me for almost $200. Took me weeks to emotionally recover from that one
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:17 pm)Not so much the money as the time spent waiting, and waiting, for people who don’t come when they said they would, and then are unprepared when they do come. Maybe that’s just a local issue, but here it is a factor.
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:20 pm)I agree….but $500/month? At 15 cents/kwh = 3300kwh, about 10 times the national average. I think you are talking about huge houses with a/c running 24/7.
If you fully charge your Volt every day 8kwh * 30 days = 240kwh (at $0.15 = $36/month).
I think the whole issue of consumer acceptance is over-blown, This will be a one-time investment, quickly forgotten, in a little while it will just be another electrical appliance.
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:26 pm)Tag,
I’m just grasping at straws trying to think why they have set such a low figure for initial production. Considering that initial sale is to limited locals, the number of vehicles sold into each municipality may be significant. Say GM were to limit their initial market to five cities as Nissan is doing with the Leaf BEV, then we are talking about roughly 2,000 vehicles in the first year. That’s double what Nissan is planning. As far as I know Boulder, Colorado is the only city that looks like it is prepared for a heavy distribution of EVs. True the utilities in other cities have been preparing for the coming EV onslaught. This could be the reason for the slow deployment. If the localities where EVs are being used have not had time to upgrade their grid and a brown-out occurs, it will be bad news for the EVs introduction. We can all hope such does not happen. Once the DOE studies are done and utility companies upgrade their equipment (like Xcel, Boulder’s utility indicates it has done), their should be no problem with overnight charging. I am looking forward to each new article here at GM-Volt.com, looking forward to more information on what GM will be doing with the DOE grants.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:27 pm)If I am at my friends I may not stress out too much about getting the best electricity rates either. Well, maybe it depends on the friend. The one that always seems to need to borrow money, or the one that just got back from taking his family to Tahiti!!!
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:34 pm)After spending 30K the expense of installing a 220 line is pennies. Also, I expect that dealers will have arrangements with the local electricians to arrange for an install at a great price.
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:41 pm)An example, for a set number of life time miles driven, a smaller battery pack will need to be fully recharged more times than a much larger battery. How many charge recharge cycles at 40 miles per cycle will Tags Volt batteries see over 50,000 miles vs.Herms 200 mile per cycle Tesla.
This one is actually counter intuitive. GM’s job was actually much harder than Nissan or Tesla’s in that respect.
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:44 pm)This is a question I asked a long time ago. If I remember, I got Dave G and Don C very angry with me for asking.
They basically asked me why I would want to use gas at all, and they told me that GM doesn’t want to charge the Volt’s battery more than they have to, in the interest of longer battery life. The more you charge the battery, the shorter its lifespan is. GM wants to baby their Volt batteries.
I can’t wait for custom control chips for the Volt, so it can use 90% of its charge, or allow charging on the fly, or allow the Volt to be used as a generator, or just to remove that oh so annoying 104 MPH speed limiter – LOL, except in Montata, no speed limits there.
I’ll take my Volt with on-the-fly recharging, a night vision system, active cruise control, rear view camera for parking, and the VW thing that chills your – ah – soda, right, yeah, MGD brand soda, in a special compartment.
While I’m wishing, maybe EEStor will give us all a big present this year, instead of the same empty box they gave us last year. Or maybe not. Richard Weir hasn’t even filed with UL (Underwriters Laboratories) to have his Ultracapacitor UL certified – I just checked the UL website. Nothing. And so we wait…
————————————
Remember,
If you drinking and driving this holiday season, don’t do drugs.
Wait…
If you drink and do drugs this holiday season, don’t drive.
Uh…nevermind.
Have a Merry Christmas everyone- hope you get that Volt you wanted under the tree next year. (Even Dave G and Don C – you have 12 months to get back on the nice list, by not yelling at me about my dream Volt above).
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:47 pm)Wasn’t the whole idea of SAE J1772 to standardize the charging mechanism for all electric cars? So it’s not really “proprietary” other than being for charging cars. In theory, you could have a Leaf and a Volt and charge both with the same charger, right?
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:48 pm)It won’t turn me off.
I will gladly install a 220 in the garage, but I don’t really have to.
110 will do just fine.
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:53 pm)I have a product that will change the world and I am planning on selling three versions of it. There’s only one problem. The first version I will lose $3000 for every unit I sell, the second version, I will only break even for each unit sold.
It’s only the third version where I will begin to earn back my investment. Which version will I want to sell the most of, If I am to avoid re-bankrupting my firm?
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:58 pm)That’s what the planned studies are designed to determine.
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:58 pm)jeffhre,
I don’t know what you did on this post but you have me quoted as saying this but it was kdawg.
“kdawg Says:
December 12th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Lyle, didn’t you say you plugged in at your friends house one time? Wasn’t that at 120VAC?
Can I stop at my friend’s house and plug my Volt in a 120VAC outlet using the cord in the trunk?
I dont see myself putting in 220VAC charger. Overnight charging is good enough for me. Not saying this wont change after driving my Volt for a few months. Time will tell. ”
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:59 pm)KA-BOOOM.
That kind of power will never be safe. The connectors the power companies use for this are 12″ in diameter. The cables are huge. 350kW is a ridiculous amount of power. Extremely dangerous.
And yes, I’m aware of all the schemes people are suggesting to make this safe, and I can tell you they won’t work. When it comes to electrical engineering, a little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous.
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:09 pm)I don’t get it. If you are charging overnight anyway, what does 220v buy you?
Also, when EREVs go mainstream, if everyone charged at 220v, it would put a lot more strain on our grid. The last thing we want is people blaming EREVs for rolling blackouts.
I feel strongly that most people should be charging EREVs at 110v. GM should offer the 110v charging package standard, and the 220v option shouldn’t be cheap.
+2
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:19 pm)I think that the limited roll-out reasoning is based on the unforeseen that may crop up in any cutting edge technology. As they say “We don’t know what we don’t know”. If something really terrible crops up, the number of vehicles involved, by definition, will be small and more manageable.
Lyle has described the electrical drain to charge a Volt @ 110 as the same as two flat-screen TV’s (no mention of how large (lol). If that’s all it is, then it won’t be much more of an impact than a “post Christmas present” city. For that matter, if a city has Christmas lights, then it can probably handle the drain of a few dozen Volts. I’d love to get excited about the strain that the Volt and LEAF will pose, but the change will be slow enough to avoid major problems (darn it).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:21 pm)I sure hope the person that buys this car used will know you did all this
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:28 pm)What, Roy ? A troll ? But he just said the Volt is just another $40000 electric appliance, easily purchased, and just as easily forgotten. With logic like that, Roy couldn’t possibly be a troll. Could he?
Looks like just another little kid on mom’s computer, who has no idea what it’s like to have to choose which bill NOT to pay this month, because there’s just not enough money to pay them all.
My advance apology to Roy, if he turns out to be ultra-rich, and regularly has his servants buy him $40000 trinkets on a whim. Most of us live in the real world, where money is finite, and $40000 is a huge amount to pay for almost anything except a house.
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:32 pm)Although I have a 220 line, I don’t know if I’ll have it converted or not. 120V is fine, as I said. Reading it, I can understand the confusion (lol). Even at 220, I really don’t see the numbers being charged as challenging for the power companies. JMO,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:33 pm)The cars chargers are on board. The thing in the garage (the cord) must communicate with the charger to remain de-energized when plugged in, then give your charger the right charge, only energizing after confirming the correct voltage, amps and phase with the charger. It should remain de-energized at the car connector when attached to an improper or illegal power source. This is redundant with the on-board charger and will require a lot more sophistication than an ordinary extension cord. ( http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php )
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:40 pm)Afraid so my friend. Patience is a vertue!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:42 pm)And our group is about as virtuous as we can bear!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:44 pm)The optional 240Volt charger is wall mounted most likely in your garage. Only the 110Volt charger is under the hood of a standard Volt.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:51 pm)Not according to Tony Posawatz
In accordance with NEC requirements a 240 Volt connector has to be permanently connected, not just plugged in.
Dec 12th, 2009 (9:55 pm)When did Tony say otherwise? I think that LRGV is correct.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:25 pm)Given that charging a battery requires DC current, Do any plug in cars have a DC interface for solar input? It would be a shame to invert DC to AC and then back to DC again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (10:56 pm)Question: Will you have to have to charge the Volt indoors or will the charging gear work OK outdoors?
Dec 12th, 2009 (11:51 pm)Ha ha. That’s a good one. if I get a Volt before you, you should come out for some test drives and see for yourself just how big my house isn’t.
Dec 13th, 2009 (12:39 am)I got my Volt already (well, one of them). It is one of the models of the prototype, diecast 1:32 scale, thanks to one of our group that posted the link to the place on eBay that was selling them
.
Dec 13th, 2009 (12:44 am)Was it Britta Gross who said the Volt will accept no more than 12 amps at 240 volts.
My bad, 16 amps – “The other device option (L) is a 240 V stationary wall-mounted unit that has to be installed in the owners garage per code. This unit running at 16 amps can recharge the Volt in 3 hours.”
I actually proposed to GM that they offer a optional charger also capable of 240V 48 amp charging. At that rate, the Volt could be recharged in about 45 minutes. This would be a great feature for those who want it, and would help to encourage infrastructure development as people could recharge their Volts a rest stops in as much time as it takes to have dinner. It would be a great marketing tool as well.
Volt exec Tony Posawatz poured a little water on my enthusiasm.
“Volt battery can/will handle 220V w/48 amps,” he said. “Just not something we are offering from the factory.” Posted by Lyle at ( http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/ )
Also see ( http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3158&page=2 ) in the forums for a good discussion of this.
Dec 13th, 2009 (5:19 am)I admit that I did not read every post but there is a huge flaw in the calculations! There is no 220 volts or 110 colts in the U.S., at least not since about 1928. Our voltages are 120 and 240. This means of that the amperage decreases.
3300 watts @240v = 13.75 amps instead of the 15 amps mentioned in the article. 99.9% of the homes in the U.S. are served with 120/240 volt electrical services. So all the numbers have to be adjusted. It’s just one of those things that bugs me, being an electrical engineer who designs electrical systems for buildings. I always hear these numbers being thrown about by laymen. 110v, 115v, 220v, 230v or 440v and 460v. All of these numbers are incorrect. It’s 120v, 240v or 480v. There are other voltages used in commercial buildings as well but that would only further confuse the conversation, they are 208v and 277v. What causes the confusion is the nameplates on motors etc. which are often listed as 115v or 230v. These are the Design Voltages of the equipment. The equipment is designed at a nominal voltage so it can be sold/used around the world.
But again, here in the U.S., our household vaoltage is 120/240v
Dec 13th, 2009 (5:53 am)Somebody asked above what the typical household wiring is. I believe older non-ac houses have maybe 60 to 100 amp connections. Most with A/C have 200 amp connections. Due to a slight communications problem when I had all my panels replaced to turn them all into subpanels for the solar system (I can run the entire house from the solar system) I wound up with 400A mains. These are AWG 000 copper wires nearly the size of a garden hose and I believe half of Canada had to be strip mined to create my electrical system.
In any case, if I recall correctly (it’s late, I’m sleepy) the problem was that the rated amperage is typically given as the sum of the two phases, or the amps available on two phases at 110V. So, a system having two 100A breakers, one on each phase is called a 200A system since it can draw 200 A at 110V. However, that same system can only draw 100A at 220V. Mine, however, can draw 200A on each phase, or 200A at 220V. Which, quite frankly, is silly, but it took months to get anybody to come out and do the custom rework, I wasn’t going to let a few hundred extra amps get in the way. 
In any case, I thought I was set up for an EV because I have two full 150A phases running to the garage so I can run 220V @150A or, 33kW. I could charge the Volt in less than half an hour. 
In any case, it turns out I’m screwed anyway and have to redo the panels yet AGAIN to create a separate metering system for the E-9 rate plan so I don’t lose E-7 for my solar power. 
Sadly, my back wall is out of space. Not only is there a battery bank about the size of a quarter cord of wood but there’s several breaker panels, inverterchargers, solar distribution panels and several yards of 4″ conduit running all that 000 wire around. I’ll be spending some time on the phone this year with PG&E and the CPUC to figure out exactly what will happen with the rate plans and what I can do about it. It may all be moot as they are switching to smart meters and we might lose all TOU rate plans but the pricing on demand ones they are making for the smart meters, anyway. I’d sure like to avoid redoing the panels again but I don’t want to lose E-7 because of an PHEV. Sadly, from a financial standpoint, I’d have to stick with E-7 and not buy any type of PHEV if that were the case.
Dec 13th, 2009 (7:29 am)If the number of EREVs on the road never exceeds 1 million, then I would agree. But in that case, I would consider EREVs a failure.
If EREVs succeed in their promise of becoming mainstream, then 220v charging will become a real problem, especially if a lot of people charge during the day.
Since I consider the second scenario both preferable and possible, I’m concerned about getting people used to 220v charging. Early adopters set the example…
Dec 13th, 2009 (7:36 am)This is all correct. Nice explanation.
Dec 13th, 2009 (9:53 am)I’ve tried for many months on this site to point out that people are using the incorrect voltage designations but it seems to be a waste of time. Even some who decry that a little knowledge is dangerous, continue to use the wrong designations and make exaggerated technical claims about current connectors. If you come back to this post you might be amused by some of the very wrong postings above.
It doesn’t matter much – a little disinformation here pales in comparison to the (AGW) global warming hoax. Anyone can get a 240v charging circuit installed in their garage or do it themselves if capable, just like hooking up a stove or dryer but use an arc detecting breaker just for fun. Tempest in a teapot.
Dec 13th, 2009 (11:32 am)DaveP: In any case, if I recall correctly (it’s late, I’m sleepy) the problem was that the rated amperage is typically given as the sum of the two phases, or the amps available on two phases at 110V. So, a system having two 100A breakers, one on each phase is called a 200A system since it can draw 200 A at 110V. However, that same system can only draw 100A at 220V.
This is all correct. Nice explanation.
This is absolutely INCORRECT. A 200 amp service can draw 200 amps on each phase. It is not the sum of the two phases.
Dec 13th, 2009 (12:20 pm)I agree … Got that wrong DaveP… 100amps on each phase is 100amp for each phase it’s called a 100A service…and you never have heard of someone flunking out of elementary education and going into Electrical engineering.. that’s one of the problems in this country… we don’t appreciate our engineers…. but the kindergarten teachers in my school district make $94K per year and work 4hours a day for 180 days. Too many things upside down in this country.
Dec 13th, 2009 (3:26 pm)I am in the computer software business and “User Groups” have long been an accepted way of providing exchanges between users, potential new users, and primary providers (IBM) and secondary providers (independent software providers). It is not cheap. And the model might not translate directly to a consumer product, but in a sense that is what auto shows are. Seems like doing something like this in conjunction with an auto show could work. And it would not have to be a Volt only thing. Good way to get more in-depth background in the hands of the public in a controlled way.
Dec 13th, 2009 (7:39 pm)Why can’t the charger be on board? Then I could plug into a common 220V dryer outlet anywhere.
Dec 13th, 2009 (7:40 pm)Frank B, PJK,
Yes, you guys are right about the nomenclature for ratings. Thanks for the correction. (Sorry about that I should point out that it was about 3am local time and I thought I was feeling kind of, er, not totally with it at the time I wrote that.
Ampacity of the FSE is not rated as the sum of the 120V legs. If you have two 120V @ 200A legs (also capable of 240V @ 200A) that is rated as a 200A system. In fact, I just remembered, if you have a little bar connecting your mains breakers, that has to be stamped with the rating. So, if your bar is across 2 breakers and the bar says “200″ then that’s a 200A system, capable as I just described.
Dec 13th, 2009 (8:47 pm)The unit for Volts x Amperes is watts? I thought it was “electric cars squared” :-p
Dec 13th, 2009 (8:47 pm)I’ll consider the Volt a success…….
I started this sentence and then find myself unable to finish it. It’s first hurdle is getting the first 4 wheels on the ground. After that, it’s the goal of getting the mfg numbers up into the thousands. *I* believe that these will both happen within a year or so. *Then* the goal is getting the price down to where it CAN be affordable to a broader market. If/when the Volt has a million siblings on the road, it’d be hard to call it a failure. Even if Volt #1,000,001 never sees the road, surely it will have kicked the technology (and it’s acceptance) to a level where *SOMETHING* (EREV’s, BEV’s whatever) will be moving us down the road electrically.
So I guess I’d finish the sentence – I’ll consider the Volt a success when a million of it’s family members are on the road.
JMO
Be well,
Tagamet
PS Yes, I think that we should become really comfortable with overnight charging.
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 13th, 2009 (11:04 pm)My dryer and electric stove have 240V outlets, the dryer a 30A and the stove a 50A. No special permits were needed for these. More mass hysteria on the part of teh media or local gov’t once again trying to save us from ourselves?
-1
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:03 am)Here in Europe EVERY outlet is 220 volt, as we have REAL outlets everywhere in our homes, not your tinker-toy 110 volt ones.
And people would LOVE to pay just $4 for a gallon of gasoline! Usually we pay almost twice as much.
Thus the Volt (and Leaf) might be a much larger hit over here than ever in the US. You might find most of the Volts being sold overseas…
Dec 14th, 2009 (2:14 pm)No offense to electricians but there’s no fricken way I’m letting an electrician near my house (I’m suing one right now because he didn’t do the wiring to code) to wire that thing up. Based on the specs of that device, it should be easy to run a dedicated circuit where you need one in the garage assuming you have a garage.
What you need:
1 empty space on your panel
1 15 amp dual pole breaker
1 roll of 14/3 NMB romex wire.
1 bag of 3/8 in metal clasps for the wire at the panel and box
1 metal box and 1 metal cover plate
1 drill to drill some holes in the rafters and walls (yeah you can run conduit but it looks ugly and it’s not necessary for residential).
1 hammer and screw driver to knock out the a metal hole on the panel and small metal box.
You might have to repair some sheetrock assuming you have a finished garage like in the picture.
I can imagine that not before long, you’ll be able to pick up a charger at a hardware store or electrical supply house since everything will be standardized. GO DIY!
Dec 14th, 2009 (3:43 pm)Lad,
Do you mean 2 spaces in your panel?
Are you forgetting a leetle safety detail for breakers in garages?(hint 5mA)
Peace be with you.
Dec 14th, 2009 (4:49 pm)Original plan was to have the on board charger accept either 120 or 240V. (This would be a switchmode power supply just like on every laptop sold today.)
What happened to that plan? It works fine on my EV. Having to install a second charger in your garage is a stupid idea.
Dec 14th, 2009 (9:46 pm)Small price to pay for the benefits.
I was acually successful in getting my employer to plan for 6 charging stations at my work in anticipation of the impending wave of pluging and related vehicles. That’s something most people could do.
The more we expand the charging infrastructure, the easier the adoption will be.
Dec 15th, 2009 (2:25 am)Because it’s the rule.
In North America 220V is deemed too dangerous so plugging in and unplugging shouldn’t be done with a energized plug. They are allowed for dryers and ranges since they aren’t normally plugged and unplugged.
The car chargers de-energize the vehicle plug so that it is dead when you plug in keeping you from getting shocked. If you were to regularly plug in and unplug from a NEMA 6 or NEMA 14 it would be too dangerous… even though the rest of the world handles 240V plugs daily.
Dec 15th, 2009 (2:31 am)Lyle: In most of the country homeowners can do their own install legally. It is only in the Northeast and Chicago that homeowners are forbidden from doing their own wiring. In much of the south a permit and inspection isn’t required.
Here a 50A circuit permit would cost $40 and could be inspected in under a week.
Dec 15th, 2009 (2:43 am)LOL
You just committed the geek equivalent of a grammar correction post with a gross spelling error in it.
Dec 15th, 2009 (2:58 am)The GM engineer a few months back was on a chat here. He said that the equipment is all rated for outdoor installation.
Dec 15th, 2009 (3:01 am)That’s one of the changes to the NEC I wasn’t happy to see. Prior versions of the code allowed for dedicated circuits (one outlet per breaker) without a GFI. Freezers are notorious for tripping GFIs. Often the owner won’t know it happened until things start smelling bad.