In August it was announced that GM would be receiving a $30 million DOE grant. The grant was announced as in support of an early demonstration fleet of 125 Chevy Volts to utilities and “500 to consumers.”
This got some of us excited about the possibility of getting our hands on Volts prior to November 2010. This excitement was further fueled by recent reports that GM’s board is offering $100 million to speed the Volt launch.
Last week in California, GM announced it would be using some of that grant money to issue a Volt demonstration fleet to three California utilities, and EPRI in 2011 which would be after the consumer launch.
But what about those consumer 500 Volts?
I recently was able to learn some specifics from Tony Posawatz who is the Volt’s vehicle line engineer.
The DOE grant said 125 cars for utilities and 500 cars for consumers prior to launch, can you explain?
Actually someone made an error in the capturing of the language.
The way this works is after we start regular production. Because we have the capability with OnStar to collect a lot of data, we had agreed on, and the way the language was written, from 500 to 5000 cars depending on what we determine is feasible of data that we’ll share with the DOE that we collected from real customers.
So this would be after November 2010, not pre-November 2010. This is part of DOE saying ‘hey we’re stimulating jobs, we also want to learn about this technology so we can understand how to help further the technology going forward.’ So the data will have things like what percent of the time does the customer really drive on battery electric?, what percent of the time is the engine generator on?, what are the driving distances? That kind of stuff.
Will people be able to opt in on that after 2010?
Once we launch, it’s very much like the deal Nissan has as well. They have the same kind of commitment to collect some data. For the DOE, the data is more important that the cars.
It will be all the cars then?
We have to work through the specifics. Collecting a lot of data doesn’t mean its better, we want to collect it smartly. So we left them with a range, and someone didn’t interpret that accurately in the language they chose to summarize it.
The good news is for every Volt customer we will have the ability, and we’ll have to have a little discussion about the data we will collect as they sign up to be a Volt customer. And how that data gets displayed and shared. Certainly we want to maintain privacy, but we also want to make certain that they can share. Just like what you’ve created in the ability of people to share and discuss. We want to be able to have Volt customers share amongst themselves and to have some real data as well.
This entry was posted on Friday, December 11th, 2009 at 7:19 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Dec 11th, 2009 (7:41 am)Well, the news can’t be ALL rosey. But actually, this is a pretty down to earth approach. After yesterday’s blue sky session it is good to get back down to earth.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (7:46 am)I think this is great news! To be able to share data with other customers is pretty incredible.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (7:47 am)So Lyle (and guys),
If all goes well (with or without the $100M extra), and there are, say 4000 or so Volts made before Nov. 2010 are they going to hold onto all of them and release them all at the same time? Does it take that many to fill the pipeline? I have no inside knowledge on this.
+3
Dec 11th, 2009 (7:48 am)BTW, Nice looking black Volt, even if it is not entirely practical.
+2
Dec 11th, 2009 (7:52 am)So, no Volts prior to Nov. 2010 under the DOE program.
That still doesn’t preclude the possibility that GM (without DOE participation) may want to make more PPV’s in March/April (with blessings and $$$$ from the Board) and allow some consumers to use these Volts in a “Project Driveway” type program.
The more testing prior to launch, the better, IMO.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (7:56 am)From the article:
We want to be able to have Volt customers share amongst themselves and to have some real data as well.
This is great. I would love to know how my Volt compares with the other Volts out there. I am more than willing to share my data.
Especially if it helps everyone learn. I am so committed to teaching people, I am donating my body to science….hopefully after I have lived a very long and fulfilling life.
+4
Dec 11th, 2009 (7:58 am)Well, IMHO, if the DOE and GM really wants to have and share “real world data”, they have to get a real sampling of cars all around the country, not just in California.
I am a ready volunteer as always to be a tester from Youngstown, Ohio, but I would have to ask one question:
Are we talking about car useage data being collected, or are we talking about tracking by GPS locations everywhere the car has been driven? I have nothing to hide, but I don’t know if I want “big brother” knowing where I am every second of the day….. I am just saying that there could be some real privacy concerns that would need to be disclosed in advance, don’t you think?
Or am I reading too much into all of this?
+2
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:00 am)Test, test, and test some more. When done, test again.
Make sure the car is as close to perfect as possible before the November launch. If not, the press will vilify GM. Then the taxpayers will vilify GM. Then consumers will vilify GM. Not good.
+5
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:05 am)It is a good idea that GM gathers data before selling the Volt. One underlaying reason is that with so much media hatred directed at GM, one has to wonder what false report an organization like Consumers Report would write. I have no doubt that Consumers Report is bias. They can not even recommend one GM vehicle!
GM could squelch false reporting with a vast amount of data.
+2
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:05 am)Choosing should be simple………just pick the first 500 on this list
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:06 am)If cars are part of a study, then they’re not really production cars for sale, are they?
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:15 am)That would be me at #110. I fully support your idea.
+3
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:17 am)No voltaholic, being n°684, I want a random draw on the first 1,000 so I would get a fair chance to get one.
Regards,
JC NPNS
+8
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:18 am)Doesn’t $30 million seem like a lot of money just to share data they already have the ability to collect?
+3
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:35 am)$30 million sounds expensive to just collect data for 500-5000 vehicles through OnStar.
So does this mean…if the customer agrees to share THEIR data, the DOE is paying for thier OnStar subscription? Can you opt out of the data collection?
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:38 am)Well, I guess Tag’s smile has faded, but knowing how he brims with optimism, I am sure he will recover…
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:41 am)The good news is for every Volt customer we will have the ability, and we’ll have to have a little discussion about the data we will collect as they sign up to be a Volt customer. And how that data gets displayed and shared. Certainly we want to maintain privacy, but we also want to make certain that they can share. Just like what you’ve created in the ability of people to share and discuss. [b]We want to be able to have Volt customers share amongst themselves and to have some real data as well.[/b]
No problems there Tony. The site is called GM-Volt.com
LJGTVWOTR
Has Plug? Have Sale.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:44 am)It is a relatively small sample, if you feel folks could pick out your GPS movements to the linear foot from the pile of other data, and use it against you…I’m sure you’ll be able to opt out.
+3
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:12 am)Of the many things that could be done with the data, perhaps we will get new drive test data for a future mileage rating system. We should also compare it to previously established mileage driving profiles, to see how driving habits differ in an EREV – perhaps people will drive differently to conserve energy, or drive a little further to go where the charging stations are when they park.
+3
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:18 am)It’s not such a big deal if all the data is captured in one location. Even the old LA4 drive cycle was based on driving in LA in 1964. Newer real time data was captured in SoCal and I believe Atlanta. it’s just very expensive to set up a monitoring program, and even more expensive to set one up in more than one location.
As to what they want to capture, the exact location is irrelevant though distance is important. What the DOE wants to know is how the cars are being driven — IOW how many kW are being expended, how often they’re being charged, and how far they’re being driven. What the DOE wants to do is replace guesses with real world data. That real world data will hopefully inform all types of findings and policy decisions. For example, if Volts are being charged more than once a day then the MPG would go up. If people forget to charge them then it would go down. Likewise, range anxiety of EVs can be measured by how far people drive if they don’t charge.
But yes, information about the cars location will doubtless be collected. If you’re uncomfortable with this — in deciding this remember that if you carry a mobile phone this information is already captured by the mobile operator (OnStar may do the same thing) — then you can pass on the purchase or hopefully opt out. Nissan is making an agreement to monitor the car a requirement for “buying” one of the first 5000 Leafs but it sounds like GM is planning more of a scientific sampling approach. In any event the data collection program will probably be over before most of us can buy a Volt.
+2
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:23 am)I second that!!!
+3
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:23 am)Having your car continue to transmit data to its manufacture concerning how you use the car is rather Orwellian. But GM has only noble motives, like a big brother. Soon the data (speed and location) will be compared to posted limits and speeding tickets will be issued accordingly. You don’t like it? How about its effect of saving tens of thousands of young lives each year. And remember, too many speeding tickets does not result in a loss of your driving license, no they cut off your medical care. Welcome to the digital age to come.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:24 am)Nissan is part of a similar DOE study with the Leaf. The grant is for nearly $100 million and involves 1000 vehicles. That program involves eTec, the company that will install charging stations and gather the data from the charging station and Leaf vehicles.
With GM’s OnStar, they will be able to collect a lot more data on different factors than Nissan/eTec will. GM has a much more suffisticated way of collecting data. The great fact about the GM/ DOE grant is that it will go to GM; not so with Nissan. eTec is an unrelated U.S. company.
Some exciting details of “The EV Project” can be read at this link:
http://seattlecan.org/downloads/080509_FAQ_DOE_Ecotality_eTec.pdf
I found the link in the following article on Seattle’s involvement:
http://seattlecan.org/featured_news_archive.htm#eVehicles
Interestingly, Nissan seems, IMHO, to have made a major coup here. The eTec fast chargers will allow specifically Leaf owners to charge in only 15 minutes. Also in the article was this statement: “ECOtality has previously announced plans to deploy fast-charge systems along Interstate-10 between Phoenix and Tucson to create the Nation’s first EV Corridor and to allow EV users to commute between two major cities.”
eTec states that the charging station “will meet the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) J1772 connection standard”, so GM Volt will eventually be able to use the charging stations. Under the program, it appears that only Nissan Leaf owners will be allowed usage in cities where DOE granted them for the use of the Nissan Leaf. However, the corridor from between Phoenix and Tucson would be available for all EV’s.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:35 am)I still believe that Tag’s idea of an Independence Day Event could be pulled off by GM where they show the Volt in cities around the U.S. and take pre-orders for the Volt for future delivery. They would get direct feed-back on the demand level for the Volt. These orders could be designated “Independence Day Edition” Volts and appropriately tagged for identification of those Volts, just like the “Kingsville Ranch” edition of the Ford F150.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:41 am)Read info in this link about other cities. The article is mainly about Seattle but also talks about the other cities where the Nissan Leaf will be deployed and also about a corridor between Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona, where all EV’s will be able to fast charge.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:43 am)The way I understand it they will start production in Nov of 2010 not sale. So 4000 or so Volts will not be built before Nov 2010.
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:51 am)Nissan requires an agreement because they are also gathering data recorded on the Leaf for which owners will probably go to the Nissan dealership to download. GM,s ability to collect data remotely through OnStar is definitely a better method with less inconvenience to the owner.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:51 am)Dagwood,
So you are submitting that any time metrics are taken from any sort of product it is no longer considered production? Wow…
This is an interesting point of view, I guess this would mean that iPods are not production either, because you KNOW they track your usage of those little boxes closely.
This simply sounds like a new project driveway.
A good thing, get more prototype cars into more non professional drivers hands! This will help find problems like floormat/gas pedal interference issues early!
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:53 am)Make it a requirement that the data be collected. Then they might get to 2004 on the list and that would be me. I would be very pleased to do my part in the electrification of the automobile. To be at the forefront of a revolution such as this. What a rush. Truly my next car will be electric and get more than my current car which gets 60 miles per gallon.
Take Care,
TED
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (9:55 am)Sorry forgot to add the link although I posted it in an earlier comment.
http://seattlecan.org/downloads/080509_FAQ_DOE_Ecotality_eTec.pdf
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:12 am)(in my best fake Austrian accent)
Listen to me now and hear me later…
Vhen I said khan-soo-mer testing for the public,
Datt is vhat I meant.
Here in Kah-lee-forn-yah, some of my closest friends and associates are duh public people. Day vurk for duh public, and are part of duh public, and things like datt dare.
But day kiss-up only to ME! So day will be duh public datt will get duh VOLTs dat I spent more of your tax money on.
I say again, “it is not a toomor”, datt is my decision.
Doze of you who are as rich as me… HA! I vuzz only kidding…
You vill get your VOLTs ven duh time is right.
And datt time will be ven duh laws are changed so datt I can become President of these United States.
Thank you.
—Ahhnold
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:12 am)Great points. If you don’t want to be part of the study can you still buy a Volt?
Also early data will not be the same as data after the car is a year old. I know one of the first things I would do is drive it untill the Gen kicks in to see what it’s like. Then I would want to try to see how far I can go on a tank of gas. Then some of my friends would like to see what it’s like when the gen is running. My point is the data from the second year of ownership after the newness has worn off would be different then the first year when you are trying everything out. By the second year I would be doing everything I could to use as little gas as I could. So if everyone else is even a little like me the first year data will be useless.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:15 am)I was going over some of the links posted in my comments this morning and found one more that should be of interest to those who have questions about infrastructure for EVs around the country.
“The EV Project” summarizes current activity around the country.
http://www.theevproject.com/
There is a neat map that shows all the cities involved. Give it time to complete as one city after another is highlighted on the map.
Considering that the grant amount is proportional to the number of vehicles involved, I wonder if the grant to GM will involve construction of any charging stations in those cities where the Volt is deployed?
Happy trails to yo ’til we meet again.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:20 am)I’ll go for that @#11, may well be the only way to get a VOLT in Las Vegas
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:21 am)GM won’t allow fast charging because it’s worried how that will effect the battery. I’m also not sure how important the fast chargers will be but that is part of the experiment. In truth eTec won’t be installing many fast chargers. Each rollout area will get about 2000 chargers. About half of the chargers will be home chargers, and the other half will be 240V chargers — only about 30-50 out of the 2000+ charging stations will be fast chargers.
I don’t think first gen Volts will be able to use the fast chargers. The Leaf has two connections, one of which is a combo. I think the combo is J1772/120V and the other is for the fast charger. But from day one the Volts will be able to use the 1000 public 240V chargers, which will be the most likely ones you’d run into, as well as “pay” public chargers like those leased by Coulomb.
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:23 am)Maybe he needs to borrow some of Cpt Jacks kahlua for his coffee.
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:25 am)GM: No Volts to Consumers Prior to November 2010
________________________________________
5:21 am EST, Friday December 11, 2009
Iraq holds oil auction, Shell wins giant field
“Iraq is offering 10 oilfields over two days in a rare opportunity for oil firms, from Western majors to Chinese and Indian state-owned giants, to gain access to plentiful and cheap to pump Middle East oil reserves.”
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Iraq-holds-oil-auction-Shell-rb-1623368616.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=6&asset=&ccode=
=D~
+4
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:26 am)The ACLU might have some issues with this one.
I have no problem sharing my data with GM. But, it’s MY data. It has value and I expect to be compensated.
This needs to be opt-in, not opt-out. In other words, data transmission shouldn’t be turned ‘on’ unless I specifically told GM to do it.
The problem with data sharing is that the bad guys may be able to use your data against you. Such as knowing your patterns and heisting your plasma when you are at work. Any data sharing needs to be anonomized so that you can’t link the data to a specific individual.
We may need HIPAA laws for car health data! If the auto insurance company knows your car is ‘sick’, they could adjust rates to compensate.
If the health insurance company knows you drive like a maniac, they could raise your rates as well.
Data can be very dangerous in the wrong hands.
+4
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:33 am)80% fast charge is not bad for these actively cooled batteries, but adding a fast charge port will cost money (extra connector, cables and contactors) for a feature that people will SELDOM use.. the whole point of a BEV is the convenience of charging in your garage overnight. The idea of fast 5 minute charges is a leftover from 125 years of ICE vehicles.. the time has come for a paradigm shift with the unlimited range Volt.
+3
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:52 am)Dear GM,
I will give you any data (even pay you a small stipend) you want if I can get a Volt. DNA, blood samples, urine, water, soil, air, etc, anything you need..up to and including (if it will get me a Volt) me dressed only in a thong photos.
I have nothing to hide (goose bumps?), so sign me up!
Zel
Jacksonville Florida, Future home of and a proud owner of a Chevy Volt.
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:53 am)“A mature charging infrastructure will be established in each of the five pilot markets with exact deployment numbers based upon the results of the EV Roadmap infrastructure studies. The EV Project will deploy a total of 11,210 chargers amongst all project areas, distributed in the following quantities:
4,700 Level 2 chargers installed in owner’s homes
6,250 Level 2 chargers installed in commercial and public locations
260 Level 3 (fast-charge) chargers installed
Up to 2,240 chargers will be deployed in each market. These chargers will be allotted based upon the results of the EV roadmap process and input from regional project partner and stakeholders.”
http://seattlecan.org/downloads/080509_FAQ_DOE_Ecotality_eTec.pdf
I read somewhere that only Leaf owners would be allowed to use the charging stations., although the charges would be able to charge other EVs since they are using equipment built to Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) J1772 connection standard.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:54 am)Just returned from the LA Car Show…amazing car !!
The ‘cut-away’ display showing internal function was very educational. I sure would like to place my California personalized plate THE VOLT on one of these and demo it along the central coast.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:57 am)So Cal Ed has several Phoenix electric trucks in use during daily operations. These look like common Korean style pick up trucks. No plug-in stickers or related markings.
Here’s some recent news from Phoenix:
Phoenix has a new supplier for a less expensive higher power 125 kW electric traction motor with matching inverter/controller. The energy storage pack is still based on lithium titanate battery chemistry, but now they have three different cell suppliers (perhaps Altairnano, Mitsubishi and Kokum) and do their own “pack” design and assembly.
Altairnano promotes the quick charge capability, safety, and wide temperature of operation as the advantages of this particular lithium ion battery technology. The military shot holes in it to verify its safety and the thermal runaway temperature has been pushed up to over 240°. Phoenix talks about a 10 minute full quick charge in addition to the other charging modes. The energy density matches today’s nickel metal hydride packs, somewhat less than other li-ion chemistry, but something had to give.
The flat prismatic cells are grouped together in modules that are structurally supported, but otherwise open to the air for maximum cooling effect. The flat metal electric interconnects offer low inductance and minimal resistance, something really important for the extremely high current quick charge. The whole assembly is nicely designed to fit in a composite “tub” that conforms to the space in between the frame rails just ahead of the rear axle traction motor.
=D~
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:00 am)And, sitting at #3750 myself, I support a random draw on the first… oh, nevermind.
+2
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:00 am)While I don’t think we have anything to fear from this present DOE program, there is cause for concern moving forward. Continuing collection and ‘datamining’ of the OnStar statistics would theoretically make this possible, but what the potential “beneficiaries” of this really want is something more universal — to all drivers, not just Volt owners.
Remember, this ‘big brother’ scenario is theoretically possible with GPS and any form of medium-range data transfer technology. When the government starts talking about replacing the license tag with some kind of transponder module or chip, we should all become very concerned.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:04 am)Thank you for not posting those pics, here.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:12 am)The purpose of the fast chargers is The EV Project is enabling Leaf vehicles in those markets to extend travel without spending to much time during the day to charge. It will only apply to the Nissan Leaf. I do not believe the fast chargers are currently designed to only charge to 80% SOC and therefore would not be usable with the Volt. ECOtotally is bulding a fast charging corridor between Phoenix and Tucson with the purpose of studying intercity travel by EV.
The day will come when even vehicles like the Volt will evolve into BEV. When BEVs become common, the charging stations infrastructure will require placing of stations far enough apart to accommodate vehicles traveling from differing locations; this will require more station disbursement. Most likely the current location of gas stations along a highway.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:14 am)“The good news is for every Volt customer we will have the ability, and we’ll have to have a little discussion about the data we will collect as they sign up to be a Volt customer. And how that data gets displayed and shared. Certainly we want to maintain privacy, but we also want to make certain that they can share. Just like what you’ve created in the ability of people to share and discuss. We want to be able to have Volt customers share amongst themselves and to have some real data as well.”
Pruis owners are by passing Toyota and taking comments directly to web blogs. The bulk of reported problems are related to tire wear, cabin heating system, and low mpg using replacement tires. There have also been reports of engine stalling and accelerators sticking open. One woman reports that she had to use her brakes to keep it under 65 mph.
=D~
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:35 am)I had been following Phoenix Motor Co. for some time but not recently. The shell is from Korea; they add the electrics.
This is good news! I thought they were bankrupt. The Altairnano battery technology shows that advancements are happening that will overcome the temperature limitations that common lithium ion batteries are plagued with today. One more improvement that the Volt could use in the future. The ICE would still be needed to extend range but the need to run the ICE to condition the battery in extremely low temperatures can eventually be eliminated; start and go with no delay.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:41 am)Bankruptcy was reported during the shift to higher power 125 kW electric traction motors. This was leaked as a “canceled order” from the former supplier. Which, to the unknowing, looked like the end of the line for Phoenix.
=D~
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:43 am)The Chevy Volt: 353 days & counting.
http://gm-volt.com/ads/GMVolt_NetLook.swf
_-=
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:48 am)It’s all good.
LJGTVWOTR!!
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:51 am)I hate to break it to you, but we’ve already lost the privacy battle a long time ago. If someone wants to monitor your movements, they can as long as you have your cell phone on. Your car can be easily monitored with a GPS. And almost every car has a black box, so that they can tell if you were speeding before you got into a an accident. Personally, that doesn’t bother me half as much as Google saving every single search I’ve ever made…
In the case of the Volt, I think it’s a reasonable request. Most early Volt buyers will presumably be interested in spreading the adoptoin fo the electric car. And if this will help. I would gladly share any information GM wants in order to help them do that.
Besides, you’re getting the opportunity to buy an early Volt. That’s compensation enough, IMHO. If you’re not willing to share your data, I’m sure someone else will be willing to buy the car under those conditions.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:56 am)We know an exact launch day? (November 29, 2010 for example which is the 333rd day of 2010.) I was hoping for November 1st
Dec 11th, 2009 (12:01 pm)Too funny! I DO HOPE that we don’t have to wait 2 years.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (12:05 pm)BYD update:
BYD’s e6 sedan will land on U.S. shores next year, but according to a piece by industry analysts Matthew Forney and Arthur Kroeber in The Wall Street Journal, the company has the potential to hit some major speed bumps due to its 15-year-old battery production practices. Unlike Japanese competitors, BYD uses manual assembly lines in lieu of expensive robotics in battery production. While this reduces production costs, it leads to inconsistent quality. To date, BYD has never faced a battery recall, but it’s throwaway rate is in the 15-30% range, according to The Journal’s report.
=D~
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (12:09 pm)There’s nothing in about the Volt that makes you more vulnerable to this type of information mining than already exists in every other car. Every car with a GPS also has that black box. At least, according CNBC’s Big Brother/Big Business special. I can’t find anything else about it on the web…
+2
Dec 11th, 2009 (12:18 pm)I don’t know about that black box thing. Is that really true for *all* cars? I haven’t noticed any cases in public domain where black box data was used.
They would have a hard time tracking ‘my’ cell phone since it is one of 125k in a pool. And, I’m a guy with skills. I don’t need no stinking GPS.
“Snoop on to them as they snoop on to us.” Telemetry (like IP addresses) can be spoofed.
Subpoenas are still needed afaik to actually use any of this data against you in a court of law.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (12:28 pm)Yeah, I think Volt data is not the first thing malicious individuals who want info about you are going to look for. Only thing I can really see being useful is the record of GPS data if a PI wants to see if you have been going somewhere you shouldn’t be, etc. And if Laura is right this is already available. Too many other easier and juicier targets. There’s really no need to worry about the Volt usage data. Now your computer data is another story…
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (12:35 pm)All I know is what I saw on the CNBC program. It’s possible they made it sound worse than it actually is. To be fair, TV’s hardly a reliable source for information.
I did some research, and it turns out there are EDR’s in “most cars made in the past 5 to 10 years.” But probably not all cars. This site has a list of the applicable laws.
http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/research/edr/index.asp
I also found this:
http://www.raglandjones.com/lawyer-attorney-1364225.html
I don’t know how reliable either site is. But I don’t see why they would lie about the existence of EDRs on cars.
Yes. A supeana would be needed to use this information against you in a court of law. But I’m pretty sure the the DA would have no problem getting one. At least in most jurisdictions.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (12:40 pm)Well, a PI probably couldn’t have access to those EDRs. (It sounds like they’re geared towards accident reconstruction.) But any PI could probably install one of his or her own in your car. And you probably wouldn’t notice. (If you do a quick web search, a lot of options pop up.) Or they could tag your cell phone. (There are very easy ways to do this. There was an employer on the program who did it to his employees to make sure they stayed on the job while on the clock–they had to do a lot of road trips for work.)
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (12:59 pm)Well that’s really disturbing. CNBC is not one of my normal reliable sources though. Kind of like the NY times. You need some other sources to back them up.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/18803659
I guess I have to use my natural stealth as one of millions that nobody cares about.
Becoming one of the first 5000 Volt owners looks like it makes you a much more interesting data-being.
Are we really sure this isn’t the Matrix?
Dec 11th, 2009 (1:28 pm)Its interesting to GM with regards to the Volt. And possibly other car companies. But that’s about it as far as I can tell.
If this were the Matrix, they wouldn’t need black boxes..
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (1:42 pm)They would to convince you it’s real and not the Matrix
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (1:59 pm)LauraM,
Thank you for the grounding comments. People need to stop being so paranoid about collecting car use data. And realize that we’ve already lost some level of privacy a long time ago……. its been mostly transparent and its no big deal. We are already constantly being monitored in our cars, in stores, in parking lots, at work, online, and if you have security cameras, even at home!
We’ve got enough to worry about with the things that actually matter. I could care less about all these privacy conspiracy theories, at least until someone wants to start implanting chips under our skin! Then I will think its gone too far….
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (2:14 pm)GPS and cell triangulation have been used in many a court case. Although this evidence is damaging. It’s really not a smoking gun. Clipping your cell phone to your dog’s collar as an alibi for example. I expect it won’t be long before license plates are chipped. Followed by the offer of being able to walk right through store check outs if you are wrist chipped to your checking account. Faster shopping and a 5% price discount will sweeten the deal. I know my wife would jump at this one. She could shop 4 stores each night instead of three and feel like she’s getting a deal to boot.
=D~
+3
Dec 11th, 2009 (2:36 pm)______________________________________________________
#14 Converj Said:
“Doesn’t $30 million seem like a lot of money just to share data they already have the ability to collect?”
———————————
YES…
Since it is taxpayer’s dollars being exchanged for data on taxpayer’s driving habits, it seems to me that the better arrangement would have been for the Government to offer 5,000 volt owners $6,000 each for their Volt driving logs (gathered by OnStar which costs GM almost no incremental cost to capture, format, and forward).
_____________________________________________________
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (2:44 pm)Just back from the grocery store and the gym. I live in a small seaside town with light traffic on Friday mornings. This is what I counted on the 1 mile drive home.
1 Chevy truck
1 GMC truck
1 Jeep
1 Ford van
1 VW millennium bug
2 VW sedans
3 Toyota Prius
GM should come out now and announce a Volt sticker of $39,000 and be done with the speculation. The buying public will then know if they should pass on the other electric brands and wait for the Volt. Dragging tail on this issue will hurt GM. The downside is that GM may not make huge profit off each Volt. The upside is high volume and quicker profit from support services. It’s time to man up and announce the number. Wouldn’t it be great to be able to see one $39,000 Volt on the road for each $26,000 Prius?
=D~
Dec 11th, 2009 (2:51 pm)Lol.
Dec 11th, 2009 (3:05 pm)They do use info from the computer: “A wrongful death lawsuit seeking at least $7 million has been filed against the estate of Houston attorney John O’Quinn by the family of Johnny Lee Cutliff, O’Quinn’s employee who died with him in a car crash. . . . Police said O’Quinn was driving between 76 and 79 mph before he slammed his Chevrolet Suburban into a tree . . . Police say O’Quinn’s car’s computer data also showed O’Quinn never applied the brakes. . . .”
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6764284.html
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (3:31 pm)Except for teenagers, they should certainly be tagged
Dec 11th, 2009 (3:39 pm)Recent EV pricing:
With an estimated price tag of $40,000, BYD says the e6 has a range of 249 miles on a single charge.
Nissan North America Inc. reveals that the price of the new LEAF will be between $25-33.000 to compete with other mass-market cars in the Unitied States.
Phoenix all-electric SUT, price is $45,000.
Chevy Volt “The cost of $39,000 has been a figure thrown around…”
http://www.newsoxy.com/articles/chevy-volt-price.html
the drama
=D~
Dec 11th, 2009 (3:40 pm)It may not be that much lower with other automated manufacturers.
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:02 pm)Nice. So the police can crack the computer because it is now physical evidence at the scene. The question still: Is this evidence allowed in a civil suit? Could they also just crack your laptop if it was in the car at the time? How about your phone? Your briefcase?
From this computer evidence: Can you tell if the passenger grabbed the wheel or otherwise contributed to the crash?
The story also says the neither one was wearing a seat belt. I wonder if hitting a tree at 75+ mph is survivable had the seat belts been used. They plaintiff may be culpable in his own death by not using available safety equipment.
Here is a case where collision avoidance protocols would be handy.
This is an interesting one to track to conclusion.
Thanks for the link!
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:10 pm)I just walked in from a hard day’s work in brutal cold to read this post from Lyle and I must say that my first thought was “Well, this bites”. A couple of deep breaths later and reading *some* of the discussion, I’m back to thinking that there remain some options for the Independence Day release. My preferred one would involve a small fleet of “almost ready for prime time” pre-production Volts that would be used for promotional activities. There should be at LEAST 3 cross country trips by an assortment of people from the group. It could be done in 1 or 2 day “stages” where someone in Maine (or Washington DC, or Orlando) drives a couple days and then someone in Penna (or Indiana or Georgia) takes that car for the next leg, etc until someone arrives at the Pacific. Of course the crews of 2 or 3 people would video their adventure and the tapes could be used in commercials. If enough planning was done, local news crews could be picked up and provide them a video op for the local 6 O’clock news. The trip would also have an internet component where the crews post (almost constantly) from their Volt (even if it’s only “theirs” for a couple days). I could go on, but that’s the main thrust for promotion #1. Maybe they should start on the left coast and *arrive* in Washington DC on July 4th…
See? Now I’m sitting here smiling and thinking about how neat it’d be to promote this vehicle. Come on GM, don’t waste a human resource (us) and some priceless publicity.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:15 pm)3:31 pm
And Tiger Woods, LOL. Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:17 pm)2:44 pm
Amen! +1
-2
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:19 pm)OnStar should be tracking ALL Volt driver profiles. You should NOT expect any privacy issues when buying from GOVERNMENT MOTORS. If you got a problem i can come to your house and bitch-slap you for the gubmint. Be careful what you wish for.
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:21 pm)3:39 pm
LOL. Ditto the Phoenix.
LJGTVWOTR!!
-8
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:24 pm)Well, the GM battery hasn’t been proven at all. So 30% may be quite good, especially when compared to the Volt. Remember BYD is superior engineering at a much much cheaper price than a Volt. Getting a second battery you will still be ahead of the $40K+ price of a Volt.
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:25 pm)______________________________________________________
Off topic but fun for those of us on the EEstor (December end?)countdown:
Better look over your shoulder EEstor…here comes another Fantastic Cheese but this one is made from Regular Paper:
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/24097/?nlid=2587&a=f
___________________________________________________
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:26 pm)Thats not correct. What they are saying is, only Nissan Leaf owners will get a residential charging station. All public stations can be used by anyone with a J1772 connector.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:26 pm)4:10 pm
I can just see it now. Dr. Dennis, statik and Tagamet on a road trip. Move over “Animal House.” I love it!!
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:27 pm)Minors shouldn’t have the same rights or privileges as adults. And they don’t in some cases. I think it is perfectly sane to ID tag children. But does ‘being sane/correct/intelligent/older’ give us the right?
You could use RFID to prevent minors from driving, for example. People without licenses (especially revoked) shouldn’t be able to operate a vehicle either. RFID could block them. Look at the Bruce Willis cab-driver character in ‘Fifth Element’. His driver’s license was being revoked (points charged) while he was driving!
It’s a very slippery slope between rights and other’s safety. The question is: can the car be smarter (make better decisions) than the human operator?
It’s the same argument as gun owners. Do guns (cars) kill people, or, do other people while using these tools?
-15
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:27 pm)(click to show comment)
-4
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:32 pm)Nothing wrong with minors driving cars. I know many a 14 year old that can drive better than most people on the blog.
…and that is while they are texting at the same time.
Today’s youth are excellent multitaskers that is for sure.
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:35 pm)On fast recharging
Electric Cars have a huge hurdle
A Gasoline car is able to stop at a gas station and get 10 gallons per minute of gasoline (EPA Max). Even though this is rarely reached, almost all stations are past 5 gallons a minute.
For most cars then the range is 100 miles to 300 miles a minute!
Leaf’s fast charging is cool… but at 15 minutes to get 80% (assume 80 City and 60 HWY)… its closer to 5 miles a minute.
What does this translate too? Well for a “long trip”, I assume your traveling at HWY speeds. With a normal gas car, a trip of 120 miles takes either 2 hours of driving or 2 hours and 10 minutes of refueling
the Leaf will take 2 hours and 20 minutes.
A trip of 360 miles will take 6 hours in a car or 6 hours and ten minutes
The Leaf will take 7 hours and 40 minutes. Ouch, thats starting to get painful.
Conclusion: Unless fast charging reaches more like 20-50 miles per minute, its fairly useless for HWY travel between cities.
For city use, fast charging is much more useful (maybe 5-10 minute penalty per hour), yet it would seem more useful to deploy more “normal” stations than fast recharge stations and deploy them to more locations (IE, Grocery Store, Mall, Target, IE wherever people are going anyway) than have dedicated stations.
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:43 pm)Oh the stories we could tell! (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:44 pm)Much better than EE because they actually have working prototypes!
A really geeky (and good) friend of mine said back in the 90′s that ‘one day we will pour a liquid metal into a box and it will automatically organize itself into a computer’. He also said ‘if I run out of CPU cycles, I will be able to buy a couple of toasters and hook them into my network giving me some more cycles’. Meaning that all things electrical or electronic will eventually be network-aware and share resources.
The guy is out there, but, probably not that far off!
Dec 11th, 2009 (4:53 pm)I initially reached this conclusion but after a bit more reflection he may be right in thinking that only the Leaf will be able to use the chargers. Nissan is releasing the Leaf in conjunction with local electrical utilities. You may have to have a special card issued by the utilities to access the public chargers, or the utilities may want the charger to confirm that the car it is charging is in fact a Leaf and what Leaf is being charged (for billing purposes) before it will start. Obviously these limitations won’t serve any purpose in the long run but may be thought necessary to facilitate data collection during the test period.
Dec 11th, 2009 (5:11 pm)Even better than that would be to deliver 500 demo Volts to dealers across the US.. available for demos on the typical July 4th sales events with free hot dogs ect. The line starts over here, the salesmen will be salivating
The 500 dealers should be chosen by their customer satisfaction surveys.
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (5:11 pm)I know what today’s post says, but it just doesn’t pass the sniff test for me. I think that GM *HAS* to have wheels on the road well before the Nov 2010 point. Even if it’s purely for promotional reasons/activities. (see Roadtrip suggestion above). How could they possibly miss such a symbolic release date ?!? Simply put – they can’t.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 11th, 2009 (5:38 pm)An *excellent* idea! All of those dealers will also need to be trained to support the Volts as well (another bonus for having served the public well)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+6
Dec 11th, 2009 (5:38 pm)It’s okay JMac. I’m used to abuse. And strongly believe in freedom of speech.
There will be 1000′s of people driving Volts. Although I may not be in a position to pay the cost of mark up and add ons. I plan on following Voltek development. My heart wants a Volt. Practicality says to wait for an EREV truck. We’ll see how pricing and availability pan out.
=D~
Dec 11th, 2009 (5:47 pm)______________________________________________________
#89 Loboc Said:
“Much better than EE because they actually have working prototypes!”
—————–
I agree.
______________________________________________________
Dec 11th, 2009 (6:14 pm)Lyle quoted in cnn story:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/11/autos/electric_car_charging_challenges/index.htm?cnn=yes
Dec 11th, 2009 (6:23 pm)The article seemed to imply that the Volt needed a high power charger, by constantly lumping it in with the all-electric car. At least that was my sense of it.
Thanks for the link.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:06 pm)5:38 pm
A VERY generous response IMHO. I was tempted to respond, but couldn’t see any way to quore him without giving more exposure to his bulls**t. I’m sorry to see you exposed to that stuff, but proud of your response.
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:10 pm)This article provides a quote from Lyle.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Automakers-brace-for-electric-cnnm-732574448.html?x=0
Dec 11th, 2009 (8:11 pm)Amen and +1 to both of you.
Be well
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 11th, 2009 (10:08 pm)Thanks for the heads up. I stand corrected. That will be better at any rate.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 11th, 2009 (11:06 pm)Might as well go one step further and take sates orders for future delivery as I suggested earlier. I still believe that GM could have a very effective event wherein they find out exactly what the demand level is for the Volt. By taking deposits with the orders like Tesla did, they can show collections on their ledger sheet and give the vehicles ordered on July 4th name plates with “Independence Day Edition” on them. I’m sure earlier buyers would love to own a special edition Volt!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 12th, 2009 (4:35 am)Hmmm, wonder about that data stream after the vehicle is sold to a second, or third owner. What about them?
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:47 am)I just changed my name for “consumer” to “Volt Ambassador” . As an Ambassador I could use a production available Volt from the Independence Day release of the Ambassador Edition Volt to do what Ambassadors do (for the Volt) until the “actual” release of the Volt to consumers in November.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 12th, 2009 (8:08 pm)I’d like to be a “Volt Ambassador” too, just like Tag.
And, I can whistle the Volt song
Dec 21st, 2009 (8:23 pm)Sign me up, I will be a blogaholic on my experiences with the Volt. Loved being part of GM’s “Project Driveway” and contributing to the learnings on GM’s FCEV testing.