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GM: EVs are Cool, but EREV’s are Really Cool

November 14th, 2009 | Posted in: BEV, Competitors, E-REV, Video

It is fitting that on the day the Nissan LEAF began its US viewing tour I happened to forget to plug in my MINI E electric car the night before, and only had a few miles of range left on it. Luckily, I have a third backup gas car for just these reasons.

The Nissan LEAF offers up to 100 miles of electric range and will go on sale in selected US markets late next year. According to Nissan executives the car will priced so that monthly cost of operation is equivalent to that of a fully-loaded Civic (including fuel). Nissan still hasn’t decided whether to lease the battery separately or sell it with the car.

The LEAF began a four day display in Los Angeles marking its first stop on a national viewing tour that ends in New York City next February. It is a non-functioning car. A Nissan Versa outfitted with the LEAF powertrain will be around for VIP and media test drives, public drives will not be permitted.

On the same day the LEAF tour began GM decided to put out a viral video.

This short and simple cartoon attempts to illustrate why EVs are cool, EREV’s are cooler and can be seen below.

If you forget to plug in your EV and it’s the only car you got, not cool. If you have a Volt it won’t matter.

Of course, forgetting to plug one’s car in may not happen very often but needing to drive continuously beyond its electric range will.

May the best car win.

Posted by: Lyle

97 Responses to “GM: EVs are Cool, but EREV’s are Really Cool”

+4 ziv Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 9:32 am

A nice summary of the advantages of EREV over BEV’s. There are a lot of people who don’t understand that the range of the Volt is pretty much unlimited, I would need to fill up with gas about as often as I would need to take a break anyway, say every 4 or 5 hours. I do hope the gas tank is at least 8 gallons, though.
The stupid animation, not so cool.
+5 Herm Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 9:46 am

May both cars win, and the Prius Plug-in too.
+8 RB Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 9:52 am

Although gm started the parade, Nissan has the LEAF out in front of it for now. When Nissan’s show rolls through Raleigh in a few weeks, I will be there, and when Nissan starts selling cars in our area, I’ll likely buy one.

Should gm at some distant future time decide that we in NC are worth a Volt demo, I hope to be there also, and if gm decides to sell the Volt in my part of NC at a reputable dealer — which I think is unlikely, but there’s always hope — I’d like to buy a Volt at that time, too.

As electric cars come to market, let’s give credit to Nissan for showing a commitment to real electric cars for real people. EV is not as good as EREV, but if EV is all we have it may be good enough.

So far gm seems to be committed to making a handful of Volts for celebrities and politicians, but avoiding any commitment or even serious discussion of larger volume production. I hope gm’s initial toe in the water goes well enough that they decide to make some more, but the world goes on, and we can’t wait forever.
+8 Evil Conservative Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:02 am

I think the Doctors first paragraph says it all. EVERYONE is going to forget to plug in from time to time ….. unless the inductive charging takes off. But then again what happens if the power goes out? You are stuck if you don’t have a generator or way to charge your car.

Last summer we had a wind storm and lost power for 6 days but had a generator running. It would be nice if the Volt generator can send the power out the cord and run my house if needed but I digress.
+6 Red HHR Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:03 am

I wonder how many people will buy a Volt because it is the latest and greatest…. and not plug it in?

Also how many people will install a plug in the garage, wishing they had a Volt.
-1 RLM Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:17 am

While I would really like to purchase a Volt, It does appear that GM is preparing the justification for not selling me one. ie: National Grid, my power company probably wont open there books to GM; I don’t live in a major population center; my dealer isn’t large enough etc.
I suspect that I will have to wait for BYD.
+1 DaV8or Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:24 am

This goofy little video comes off contradictory and over simplified. First is says that electric vehicles are cool because the use home grown electric power for greater energy independence and lower emissions. That sounds really great. Then they demonstrate how the Volt, when it’s battery runs low, a range extending generator “kicks in” allowing the Volt to run circles around the EV (Why they picked a VW Bug to depict an EV is beyond me). Problem is, everybody knows that a generator runs on gas made from foreign oil and spews emissions out of the tail pipe. This might leave the viewer with an understanding of why an EREV is superior to an EV, but not how it is any different than a hybrid like the Prius. When they do check a little closer, they’re going to find that the Volt will cost almost double what the Prius will cost. The case for buying a Volt over a EV is made clear, but not why the Volt is superior to a conventional hybrid. IMO, GM needs Prius conquest sales, not LEAF or iMiev conquests. I think this video misses the point of the Volt and that combined with poor production value and sloppy execution, makes for a lame and ineffective ad campaign.
+2 Tagamet Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:28 am

Keeping the message simple – like this animation – is absolutely necessary to get the message across.
RB – I know it SEEMS like GM is diddling with the release, but the reality remains to be seen. I do think NC’s electric initiative will put them in good stead when the Volt is actually unleashed though.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3 DaV8or Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:31 am

RB: Although gm started the parade, Nissan has the LEAF out in front of it for now.When Nissan’s show rolls through Raleigh in a few weeks, I will be there, and when Nissan starts selling cars in our area, I’ll likely buy one.Should gm at some distant future time decide that we in NC are worth a Volt demo, I hope to be there also, and if gm decides to sell the Volt in my part of NC at a reputable — which I think is unlikely, but there’s always hope — I’d like to buy a Volt at that time, too.As electric cars come to market, let’s give credit to Nissan for showing a commitment to real electric cars for real people.EV is not as good as EREV, but if EV is all we have it may be good enough.So far gm seems to be committed to making a handful of Volts for celebrities and politicians, but avoiding any commitment or even serious discussion of larger volume production. I hope gm’s initial toe in the water goes well enough that they decide to make some more, but the world goes on, and we can’t wait forever.

I agree with what you are saying, but I wouldn’t put to much faith in Nissan flooding the markets with cheap EVs made by the millions. I think we will find the LEAF to be as scarce as the Volt for years to come and I doubt that all Nissan dealers will be selling them initially. That’s just the nature of starting a whole new infrastructure of mass manufacturing, sales, maintenance and demand for the next generation of cars. Of course, time will tell.
+3 Tagamet Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:35 am

RLM: While I would really like to purchase a Volt, It does appear that GM is preparing the justification for not selling me one. ie: National Grid, my power company probably wont open there books to GM; I don’t live in a major population center; my dealer isn’t large enough etc.
I suspect that I will have to wait for BYD.

I suspect that a lot of us will have to wait a bit longer for a Volt, but that’s no reason to give up on the Volt. AFAIK, it’s a lot farther along than anything else that does what it does.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1 Tagamet Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:39 am

DaV8or:
I agree with what you are saying, but I wouldn’t put to much faith in Nissan flooding the markets with cheap EVs made by the millions. I think we will find the LEAF to be as scarce as the Volt for years to come and I doubt that all Nissan dealers will be selling them initially. That’s just the nature of starting a whole new infrastructure of mass manufacturing, sales, maintenance and demand for the next generation of cars. Of course, time will tell.

I suspect that you are right even though the LEAF still owns the anchor of range anxiety.
+1 LRGVProVolt Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:46 am

I thought the animation was neat; It nicely points out the difference between EV and EVER in a simple, and concise way.

After watching it, a set of other GM Volt videos where shown for viewing as is typical for YouTube videos. I viewed several which contained content that I had missed before. After watching several, one came up titled, An Animation of How The Volt Works.

This video will answer many of the questions that have arisen in recent articles. It will dispel many of the misconceptions others have voiced. The video divided into sections, battery charging, electric drive unit, and gasoline/ E85-powered engine generator. Captions are shown which explain the animation that follows. In each mode, the animation depicts what happens with normal driving and regenerative braking.

What I hadn’t realized but learned form this video is the Volt capability to burn E85. It was fun watching the Volt traveling along accelerating and braking on the road below, with its fuel gauges going up and down as the battery was first charged with the extension cord, and then driving away under all electric drive, slowing with Regenerative Braking, then finally the battery reaching the depleted zone and the range extender coming on. One cool video of how the Volt works!

After viewing the Animation of the Volt Works, the meaning of EV’s are Cool but EREV’s are Really Cool really rings true.

Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
RB Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:59 am

9 DaV8or: I agree with what you are saying, but I wouldn’t put to much faith in Nissan flooding the markets with cheap EVs made by the millions. I think we will find the LEAF to be as scarce as the Volt for years to come and I doubt that all Nissan dealers will be selling them initially.

As I recall, Nissan has been talking about 500,000 LEAFs a year from the place in Tennessee.
+4 David Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:03 am

“Explain this to me like I’m a six year old.” Well, for those s that need that, GM has done it in a cute way. Still, I am amazed at how the nitpickers that visit here can find fault with anything.
+1 Dave K. Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:06 am

How important is it to be able to drive during the night hours and not need that AM/PM Arco gasoline stop? This is especially true for the ladies. Add OnStar for safety. It matters.

=D~
RB Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:08 am

Tagamet: RB – I know it SEEMS like GM is diddling with the release, but the reality remains to be seen. I do think NC’s electric initiative will put them in good stead when the Volt is actually unleashed though.

I remain hopeful that gm will eventually get some Volts to NC, if not in gen1 then in gen2 or gen3, and look forward — way way forward standing on tip-toe — to seeing Volts here. Gm will also need to do some work on their NC dealership situation, as the places that are most prominent have the reputation “you can buy a car there, but never go there for service.” Those dealers will be bad choices while Volts require frequent factory software updates.
+6 Ray Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:22 am

Electric power … with or without a range extender….
My thoughts….
Electric….you need a minimum charge of at least 200 Miles to satisfy the general masses… Even tho everyone “only” needs approximately 100 – 150 miles… There always that quick trip to the store for ??? and if the battery is depleated after say 125 miles… the trip to the store has to wait for “X” hours to get some type of charge up..

Voltage..

what can I say …. If the actual gas milage with the ICE running to charge the battery is above the 50 mpg level..

The best of both worlds.

In the mean time… my 2010 Fusion hybrid… even with the cooler weather up here in central Alberta Canada is still averaging 5.6 L/100 KMS … that’s 50 MPG Canadian and 42 MPG American.

I will be buying a Volt when they are available here (2013 / 14 ish) but I will be keeping the Fusion as it is a bigger car and seats 5 comfortably.

Just my nickel’s worth for you all
+2 camaro1 Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:28 am

I hope GM takes into account state tax rebates when they decide on their rollout plans. I live in Colorado and I believe they will have a $6000.00 tax rebate on top of the federal $7500.00 That gets the cost of the Volt to something reasonable ($26,500.00) and wilI likely drive a lot more sales in Colorado than other states.

Now I just need them to add a dark blue to replace one of the silver colors and I would be ready to buy one when they become available.
+2 Richard Grahman Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 11:51 am

KISS is the mantra for most American Consumers. This little graphic is perfect.
Tagamet Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

RB:
I remain hopeful that gm will eventually get some Volts to NC, if not in gen1 then in gen2 or gen3, and look forward — way way forward standing on tip-toe — to seeing Volts here.Gm will also need to do some work on their NC situation, as the places that are most prominent have the reputation “you can buy a car there, but never go there for service.”Those dealers will be bad choices while Volts require frequent factory software updates.

Lol, I can picture you standing on “tippy toes” to peer off into the future. I think Gen I will make the rounds.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2 Tagamet Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

Dave K.: How important is it to be able to drive during the night hours and not need that AM/PM Arco gasoline stop? This is especially true for the ladies. Add OnStar for safety. It matters.=D~

Not just ladies, but us old dudes too!
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1 Jaime Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

What’s really cool is a price people can afford, EV or EREV.
+2 canehdian Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

Ray: Electric power … with or without a range extender….
My thoughts….
Electric….you need a minimum charge of at least 200 Miles to satisfy the general masses… Even tho everyone “only” needs approximately 100 – 150 miles… There always that quick trip to the store for ??? and if the battery is depleated after say 125 miles… the trip to the store has to wait for “X” hours to get some type of charge up..Voltage..what can I say ….

I agree, the fusion’s a great solution.
But your quick trip to the store would not need hours to do. You do not need to wait for a complete charge before you leave again.
Depending on how far away that store is and the SOC of the battery, it may only be like 10 minutes. = go home, put your work things away. Perhaps change. Have a drink (non-alcoholic, of course ). By the time you’re done that, you’ve got more than enough juice to get to the store and back.
Batteries do the 0-80% charge level far faster than the last little bit.
If you own a laptop, you’ll know what I mean. The current rate is very high at the start of charging (= fastest charging rate) and then tapers off to 0.001 at the very end for the last bit of charge.
+2 Ziv Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

I kind of like the way the Volt and the Leaf complement each other, kind of the Ying and Yang of future electric vehicle development. The Volt will be quicker, sportier and will have unlimited range while the Leaf will be more of a clean commuter car, with the limited range irritation limiting its appeal. The Leaf itself will be cheaper, but the battery pack rental will eliminate that advantage. The two cars will probably weigh a similar amount with the Leaf’s extra 8 kWh of battery weighing about what the Volts ICE does. I still can’t figure out how the Leaf will get 100 miles in the city cycle, are they using all 24 kWh, or nearly so? If they use 60% of 24 kWh that is 14.4 useable, 5 miles per kWh gets you to 72 miles to empty. Most of us want 30 miles of ‘gas in the tank’ so your real world range is 42 miles before you start worrying.
Or are they going to use 20 kWh to get a 100 mile AER and price a replacement battery into the deal? Even then your 100 miles AER will only last a year or two before normal pack degradation starts whittling away at your range.
The extra 8 kWh the Leaf enjoys is a mixed blessing as well, because 8 kwh of battery is just as heavy as an ICE and will probably cost twice as much if they are priced into the Leafs true cost.
That having been said, I think the economies of scale regarding battery production will help the Leaf more than the Volt, simply because the Leaf type of BEV is more battery reliant than the Volt.
So when Nissan starts US Leaf production late in 2012, the Volt will have a clear advantage, but that advantage will dissipate somewhat if GM doesn’t find a way to reduce the cost of the Volt relatively quickly.
BYD will probably actually sell packs for $300 a kWh for a time, but that is classic dumping, packs are probably going to slowly drop from $700 per kWh to, perhaps, $400 per kWh by 2015. I would love to be wrong and see Sanyo & A123 building packs for $300 per kWh in 2013.
Bring it all on! Competition like this will reduce the amount of money the US exports to countries like Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia and make us stronger by producing our energy here in North America.
+1 omnimoeish Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

Thanks for your feedback on driving a pure BEV Lyle. Depending on one’s commuting distance, it is likely one would need a backup gas vehicle for just these occasions.

For the world as a whole, the LEAF is still not very well known, and the horror stories that we’ve read about during the 5 months Lyle’s had his are not known at all to them. I predict Nissan will push these cars big time, especially at dealerships. I can hear the salesmen saying “Are you just using this car for commuting/taking kids to school?”

“Yes”

“Do you ever drive more than 100 miles in a day to drop off the kids and getting to work and back?”

“No”

“How would you like to never have to pay for gas and never have to go to a gas station ever again?”

A lot of people will eat them up, but then the phone will be ringing when they get home one night, and they’ll rush inside thinking they’ll plug it in later and will forget until the next morning when all hell will break loose. Or they’ll get a bunch of friends and go for a drive with the heater/AC on, head lights, stereo blasting, the tires won’t be fully pressurized, they’ll have a lead foot and all of the sudden the car goes dead in the middle of nowhere.
-3 carcus1 Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

omnimoeish: A lot of people will eat them up, but then the phone will be ringing when they get home one night, and they’ll rush inside thinking they’ll plug it in later and will forget until the next morning when all hell will break loose.

Or…. you’ll be watching some lame GM commercial on TV one evening and you get a text message on your phone. Picking it up, you realize it’s a friendly reminder from your Leaf that you might want to plug in — even though you still have 60 miles of range left after the days 40 mile drive.
+2 Koz Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:35 pm

I have to agree with DaV8or at #7 in that GM is missing the mark in their advertising. They continually take pot shots at BEV’s as though this is their primary competition concern. This is an example of their old school (Lutz) mentality that doesn’t completely grasp the low/no gas market segment. While I don’t think Lutz has been all bad for GM as some others do, it is clear to me that he (and much of GM’s management) approaches this market from an outsider’s myopic perspective. They need to gain better understanding of this market or they will continue to be on the outside looking in.

What is the point of downplaying BEVs? These are children or cavemen (sorry GEICO boyz) that are interested in BEVs. The bulk are highly educated professionals that believe in long term decision making. BEVs will either work for somebody’s needs or they won’t. No amount of marketing is going to change this very much. It’s like trying to convince consumers to buy a 4-seater that feel they need 5 seats. It ain’t gonna happen and it’s not worth the marketing effort. They should beating the energy independence drum as loud and often as they can. They should be touting relative improvement from ICE to HEV to EREV as loud and often as they can. The marketers job is to convince Prius, Insight, Fusion, Camry, Accord, A4, BMW 3 series, C-class, etc buyers that the Volt offers a gigantic improvement over the next best “practical” solution on the market. They need to convince them that there is value beyond the initial purchase price. Granted, this market is still fairly small in relative terms but it is growing and it is plenty big for the projected Volt volumes. GM needs to understand, cajole, and grow this market. If GM does’t, others surely will and they will dominate.
+2 omnimoeish Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

Ziv: I kind of like the way the Volt and the Leaf complement each other, kind of the Ying and Yang of future electric vehicle development. The Volt will be quicker, sportier and will have unlimited range while the Leaf will be more of a clean commuter car, with the limited range irritation limiting its appeal. The Leaf itself will be cheaper, but the battery pack rental will eliminate that advantage. The two cars will probably weigh a similar amount with the Leaf’s extra 8 kWh of battery weighing about what the Volts ICE does. I still can’t figure out how the Leaf will get 100 miles in the city cycle, are they using all 24 kWh, or nearly so? If they use 60% of 24 kWh that is 14.4 useable, 5 miles per kWh gets you to 72 miles to empty. Most of us want 30 miles of ‘gas in the tank’ so your real world range is 42 miles before you start worrying.
Or are they going to use 20 kWh to get a 100 mile AER and price a replacement battery into the deal? Even then your 100 miles AER will only last a year or two before normal pack degradation starts whittling away at your range.
The extra 8 kWh the Leaf enjoys is a mixed blessing as well, because 8 kwh of battery is just as heavy as an ICE and will probably cost twice as much if they are priced into the Leafs true cost.
That having been said, I think the economies of scale regarding battery production will help the Leaf more than the Volt, simply because the Leaf type of BEV is more battery reliant than the Volt.
So when Nissan starts US Leaf production late in 2012, the Volt will have a clear advantage, but that advantage will dissipate somewhat if GM doesn’t find a way to reduce the cost of the Volt relatively quickly.
BYD will probably actually sell packs for $300 a kWh for a time, but that is classic dumping, packs are probably going to slowly drop from $700 per kWh to, perhaps, $400 per kWh by 2015. I would love to be wrong and see Sanyo & A123 building packs for $300 per kWh in 2013.
Bring it all on! Competition like this will reduce the amount of money the US exports to countries like Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia and make us stronger by producing our energy here in North America.

I think the Volt will probably come down in price faster than the LEAF actually, at least in the short term, like the next 2 or 3 generations. The Volt’s engine only costs GM about $2,000. It is expensive now due to the electric drive components and the $10,000 battery pack. As you pointed out. The Volt and LEAF are really about the same price with the LEAF maybe about $2,000 cheaper. From what I’ve heard, the LEAF will cost about $23,000 and the battery lease will be $150. Driving the Volt for 15 years, the life of an average car and driving the LEAF for 15 years will be in the Volt’s favor. As 15 years of paying $150/month will cost about $27,000! Even buying a Volt at $40,000 and then buying a new battery pack after 15 years at (by that time an insane) $10,000 (I’m guessing more like $3,000 by then) will still be breaking even with the LEAF. There’s no reason to go through the risk of getting fired if you forget to plug in or if the power goes out during the night, or risk your wife and kids getting stuck somewhere because they didn’t realize it didn’t get fully charged. And you can’t take it on trips. I mean, imagine moving across the state or country, you’d have to get a tow truck!

And as you pointed out, the real driving range of the LEAF is really a lot shorter than people realize, I hope this doesn’t come back to bite Nissan in the butt when hundreds of thousands of dumb blonds go buying one because they’re cute and think that they can wait 3 or 4 days between charges because they only drive about 25 miles a day.

My point is that the Volt will likely always be priced very similar to the LEAF with maybe a $2,000 premium at the most that will be well worth it for the added convenience and safety the Volt offers.
-2 carcus1 Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

#26 add,

There will probably be a host of customizable features developed for these “car to owner” communications.

One setting would be that anytime the car has been parked at one of it’s designated charging spots (i.e. home) for more than 30 minutes without plugging in, it’ll send you a message. Later reminders could be possible. Or the reminders might not be triggered if x miles range are still available.

/Over 2/3 of the households in the U.S. have 2 cars or more, over 1/3 have 3 cars or more. Likely a BEV won’t be your only car, but if you own one it will be your primary car.
-14 Doofenshmirtz Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

(click to show comment)

By the time the Volt is out, the market will be well populated with enough BEV’s to affect at least 50% of the market. The Volt will then just be a niche product.
+3 LeoK Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

The KISS principle is alive and well. The video does a great job of simplifying the fundamental difference between EV and EREV. The key word is ’spontaneous’.

Weekday commuting is easy to figure out as most consumers have a ‘typical’ daily commute. But people rely on their vehicles 7 days a week, and the weekend is when the real difference will appear to the average consumer.

An EV will allow the driver to take a trip equal to approximately 50% of the EV’s range. With the LEAF at 100 mile range, that means a driver can take a 50 mile drive on a Saturday afternoon – that’s less than an hour from home. They will need the other 50% of the range to get back – unless they plan to stay the night!

With an EREV like the VOLT, those Saturday afternoon drives can be completely spontaneous. Meet someone along the way, change your plans. Get a call from home and have to add some more errands – add away. The VOLT will allow its owners to be completely spontaneous with their driving habits – all while helping to get off the foreign oil addiction.

Hey, come to think of it, GM can do a co-op viral ad with Viagra. They can equate an EV to the little blue pill – it will get you going for a couple of hours. While the EREV is like the 36 hour version – so you can be spontaneous…. you get the idea:-) … they’re both good – but one is better!
Dmitrii Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

There is one easy solution for “I forgot to plug in my car” problem.
In fact, this solution is widely spread in small industry/civil object automation: the controller (for example, let it be smart relay Zelio Logic) through gsm-modem module sends sms on mobile phone of the person, who must take actions (for example, pipe in basement starts leaking, and home owner receives sms “Alarm! Alarm! Pipe №xxx is decompressed”).

So back to EV. Car through modem (if installed) can send a sms to the car-owner, when the battery is depleted one hour delay after the car is parked.
Or wall-mounted car-charger can send sms, at direct time (for example 23:00) that it is still unoccupied (which means that the car owner has forgot to plug in the car).
+1 Doofenshmirtz Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

omnimoeish: A lot of people will eat them up, but then the phone will be ringing when they get home one night, and they’ll rush inside thinking they’ll plug it in later and will forget until the next morning when all hell will break loose. Or they’ll get a bunch of friends and go for a drive with the heater/AC on, head lights, stereo blasting, the tires won’t be fully pressurized, they’ll have a lead foot and all of the sudden the car goes dead in the middle of nowhere.

You’re assuming that people should not be responsible for their lack of actions? If you forget, it’s your fault, not the cars or the technology. The same stiuation goes if you forget to put gas in your car. I’ve seen enough stranded people STILL walking with a gas can on the side of the road. Is it the cars fault?
Doofenshmirtz Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

carcus1: There will probably be a host of customizable features developed for these “car to owner” communications.
One setting would be that anytime the car has been parked at one of it’s designated charging spots (i.e. home) for more than 30 minutes without plugging in, it’ll send you a message. Later reminders could be possible. Or the reminders might not be triggered if x miles range are still available.
/Over 2/3 of the households in the U.S. have 2 cars or more, over 1/3 have 3 cars or more. Likely a BEV won’t be your only car, but if you own one it will be your primary car.

+1
Good idea.

The Leaf also has a map indicating the possible radius/range you have depending on charge.
newbie Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:26 pm

BEV makes stupid people stupider, and smart people a little less smart… because no matter how responsible you are, you’ll forget to plug it in…. so the back-up plan is to have a built-in generator in your BEV just in case you are less smarter than you think…. it happens to me all the time with my phone, i end up in a public phone or begi’n somebody to use their phone… i hate when that happens…and that made me stupider…
+7 stuart22 Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

RB:
As I recall, Nissan has been talking about 500,000 LEAFs a year from the place in Tennessee.

Nissan is blowing smoke out of their stinky tailpipe with this number. I say, show me the basis for that figure…. otherwise my suspicion of Nissan remains…. that they’ve concocted the LEAF as a means to sieze the spotlight that Toyota has basked in with its hybrids, and which is tilting in GM’s direction now. Nissan fears the harm to their image if they fall behind in the post-ICE age that we are entering.
Coming from nothing, an EV gave them the quickest path towards media attention – and what’s keeping the light on their sham are the promises of high production numbers put out by American labor, promises of being affordable and hitting the marketplace soon…. it’s interesting on this ‘tour’ around the country that there is no actual working model of the LEAF to see, only a dummy version….. it’s interesting that Nissan isn’t sure where the car will be priced at; whether the battery will be leased or sold with the car…..

I’d like to see the real figures of what Nissan is investing in the development of the LEAF – if anybody knows, please give ‘em. Until then, my suspicions will remain that Nissan is not as sure about the LEAF’s future as people think. And to be honest, they shouldn’t be – the LEAF possesses all the fatal shortfalls inherent to pure EV’s.

When it comes on up to Santa Rosa, I’m going to bring my fishing pole along to see if I can catch one. Or at least get a picture of me and my pole next to it.

taking place EVo keep from being lost in the dark,
+3 Roy Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

The Leaf show car is not drivable? I guess Nissan is not as far on in their development as I thought. It will not hit the market for another 2 years. All they are doing is feeling out the market and taking early orders.

Has the Volt price been set yet? Can local dealers begin taking orders?
RB Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

Eliica 8-wheel electric concept car, under development in Japan, per wsj.
http://online.wsj.com/video/eight-wheeled-electric-car-from-japan/E7C648E1-8B46-4911-81DD-A4EEA95D15EA.html
+3 LRGVProVolt Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

#27

Koz: It’s like trying to convince consumers to buy a 4-seater that feel they need 5 seats. It ain’t gonna happen and it’s not worth the marketing effort.

When your on the road, take a look to see how many cars have five people in them. Most have just one, the driver. GM isn’t advertising the Volt as a four seat vehicle; it just happens to be that. No emphasis is put on that fact to sell the Volt. You can take any fact and twist it to make anything look bad. But people aren’t ignorant; they’ll see what the Volt offers and like what they see.

Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-11 Inconvenient Truth Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

(click to show comment)

Old GM YOU LIE !

New GM YOU LIE !

GM CEO goes to Germany and tells a buncha bold face lies. Germany rightly replies to GM as follows: Get Bent GM !

You can’t make this stuff up. Real life is much better than fiction.
-14 Statman Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

(click to show comment)

Breaking News:

VW now the largest Automaker on the planet !

So long Toyota

As for GM, you were done a long time ago and looks like most of your stuff is still junk (except for the new Buick Regal engineered by the Germans). When will you clowns learn. LOL
-14 Crackpipe Whore Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

(click to show comment)

EVs are cool. EREV not so cool. Too expensive. Too complicated. Too heavy. Too maintenance prone. Too many parts to break. Too much emission. Too little residual value. Too niche markety. Too slow. Really liking the new sporty edition of Tesla Roadster. 244 mile range (can get over 300 for you hypermilers) and 3.7 seconds to 60.
Tesla Roadster continues to throw the Volt to the curb. Telsa has a built-in Voice response mechanism when in the vacinity of any Chevy Volt, she says: EAT MY DUST
koz Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

LRGVProVolt: Koz: It’s like trying to convince consumers to buy a 4-seater that feel they need 5 seats. It ain’t gonna happen and it’s not worth the marketing effort.
When your on the road, take a look to see how many cars have five people in them. Most have just one, the driver. GM isn’t advertising the Volt as a four seat vehicle; it just happens to be that. No emphasis is put on that fact to sell the Volt. You can take any fact and twist it to make anything look bad. But people aren’t ignorant; they’ll see what the Volt offers and like what they see.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.

Huh? I think you are misunderstanding the point of my comment. That was an analogy to emphasize that GM should be marketing up the benefits of EV propulsion foremost rather than attacking BEVs. I don’t believe there are that many BEV comsumers to convert and those consumers know what they want and aren’t going to be swayed anyway.
+2 stuart22 Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

koz:
GM should be marketing up the benefits of EV propulsion foremost rather than attacking BEVs. I don’t believe there are that many BEV comsumers to convert and those consumers know what they want and aren’t going to be swayed anyway.

I don’t think with this video GM is trying to convert those few BEV consumer-to-be’s as much as the message is directed at the masses who either are or will be entirely and rightfully concerned with range anxiety – this video is an attempt to get them to separate the EREV concept (GM’s Volt) away from the obvious shortcomings of the present-day BEV.

I don’t think it is GM’s mission to promote BEV’s; however it is absolutely their goal to promote the Volt and its operational advantages. And in so doing, the post-ICE age of the motorcar will be that much closer to reality. In fact the more the criticisms of BEV’s are publically exposed, the stronger the push will be to come up with solutions.

There’s no turning back from the direction we are all headed.
+7 lektriktadpole Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

Forgetting to plug in your BEV may not happen very often. But the things that cause you to forget to perform a well ingrained habit are often important things such as a family emergency. Many of these issues can last for more than one evening. These are the times when you will be least able to accommodate and least willing to tolerate a non-functioning car. When this happens, you will love the Volt for CYA, and you will hate your BEV and swear to never have another. Been there and done that on the second part. I could appreciate a little CYA now and then.
+5 Kommi Kazi Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

“A Nissan Versa
outfitted with the LEAF powertrain will be around for VIP and media test drives, public drives will not be permitted.”

Huh?? Why do a PR tour without the real thing? Should be a hit with guys who love Elvis impersonators. Nissan will be indicted for this.
-4 RB Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

44 stuart22: …at the masses who either are or will be entirely and rightfully concerned with range anxiety – this video is an attempt to get them to separate the EREV concept (GM’s Volt) away from the obvious shortcomings of the present-day BEV.

It is doubtful that the masses, in the sense of the lower socioeconomic part of the population, are going to be greatly concerned about cars as expensive as the Volt.

But if gm is concerned about the masses, and if gm wants to win their hearts and minds, then LJGTVWOTR. At that time we can stop debating clouds and start talking about a real car. There will be nothing like hearing from one’s neighbor about what a great car their new Volt has turned out to be.

In the meantime gm is just trying to infect us with the FUD factor to keep us away from the competition, methinks.
+4 CorvetteGuy Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 3:47 pm

The video was released…
The darkened skies above the Chevy dealerships opened…
A small ray of sunshine broke through…
From a nearby tree, a birdsong could be heard for the first time in many months…
And for a moment, all of the “salespeople” swore they heard the singing of angels…

So when will that air on prime time with the VOLT logo at the end?
+1 CorvetteGuy Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

ziv: The stupid animation, not so cool.

Since they chose “stop-motion” animation, it would have been funnier if they had gone to the guys from “South Park”. I can picture Cartman driving the Nissan Leaf, and Kyle, Kenny and Stan in the VOLT. That would’ve been greatness!
koz Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

stuart22: I don’t think with this video GM is trying to convert those few BEV consumer-to-be’s as much as the message is directed at the masses who either are or will be entirely and rightfully concerned with range anxiety – this video is an attempt to get them to separate the EREV concept (GM’s Volt) away from the obvious shortcomings of the present-day BEV.I don’t think it is GM’s mission to promote BEV’s; however it is absolutely their goal to promote the Volt and its operational advantages. And in so doing, the post-ICE age of the motorcar will be that much closer to reality. In fact the more the criticisms of BEV’s are publically exposed, the stronger the push will be to come up with solutions.There’s no turning back from the direction we are all headed. (Quote)

$C:\erev.jpg$
+1 Tagamet Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

RB:
It is doubtful that the masses, in the sense of the lower socioeconomic part of the population, are going to be greatly concerned about cars as expensive as the Volt.But if gm is concerned about the masses, and if gm wants to win their hearts and minds, then LJGTVWOTR.At that time we can stop debating clouds and start talking about a real car. There will be nothing like hearing from one’s neighbor about what a great car their new Volt has turned out to be.In the meantime gm is just trying to infect us with the FUD factor to keep us away from the competition, methinks.

Although I (obviously) want to see the wheels on the road, I don’t see what more GM can do to accelerate the pace. They MUST get the Volt dead on correct. It’s already a tiny target and I don’t want to be jostling their elbow.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-12 Badass Mofo Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 4:38 pm

(click to show comment)

That blue Volt cutout looks mo betta than the real volt. IMO the Volt looks like some nineties pontiac which translates to butt-ugly. It just a utility sedan, not an ounce of sportiness whatsoever. This is just the way it is. Deal with it narcissistic Volt heads.
+5 CorvetteGuy Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 4:40 pm

Badass Mofo: That blue Volt cutout looks mo betta than the real volt. IMO the Volt looks like some nineties pontiac which translates to butt-ugly. It just a utility sedan, not an ounce of sportiness whatsoever. This is just the way it is. Deal with it narcissistic Volt heads. (Quote)

It’s surprising the hole-trolls are out today.
I woulda’ thought yesterday, Friday the 13th would’ve been more natural for them.
-11 Badass Mofo Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

(click to show comment)

camaro1: I hope GM takes into account state tax rebates when they decide on their rollout plans.I live in Colorado and I believe they will have a $6000.00 tax rebate on top of the federal $7500.00That gets the cost of the Volt to something reasonable ($26,500.00) and wilI likely drive a lot more sales in Colorado than other states.Now I just need them to add a dark blue to replace one of the silver colors and I would be ready to buy one when they become available.

In collarado you can get a Tesla Roadster for nearly the price of a fully loaded Volt. And Tesla is a zero emission EV. The Volt is not even close to zero emissons. If you opt for a low level Volt just be sure you never come to a stoplight with a Roadster. The Volt will be TOAST !
-10 MachineGunKelly Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 4:52 pm

(click to show comment)

The Volt is not a bullet-proof ride. My FN Five Seven will penetrate it like butter. Wait for the video on YT.

Nissan LEAF FTW !
-10 Ariel Atom Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

(click to show comment)

The Volt is just too heavy for my taste. GM needs some more testing in the mountains and needs to lose a few pounds.

Tesla Roadster – King of the Rocky Mountains

Chevy Volt – Queen of the Smokey Mountains*

ROTFLMAO

* actually those are more like rolling hills in Tesla country.
+2 Herm Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 5:12 pm

Tagamet: lthough I (obviously) want to see the wheels on the road, I don’t see what more GM can do to accelerate the pace. They MUST get the Volt dead on correct. It’s already a tiny target and I don’t want to be jostling their elbow.
Be well,
Tagamet

But GM can do much better, back in its heyday it developed the Vega in flat out two years, and that was a revolutionary car.. Oh, wait a minute…
+2 carcus1 Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 5:15 pm

It’s interesting to see the contrast between Ghosn and . . . . well, whoever’s running GM these days:

GM: Volt will be $40,000.
Ghosn: Leaf will be priced very nearly the same as similar sedans.

GM: We’ll lose money on the Volt.
Ghosn: We’ll make money on the Leaf.

GM: The grid’s not ready (even though we have a range extender)
Ghosn: The grid’s not a problem.

GM: We need a gas tax to sell electric cars.
Ghosn: Drive the Leaf over 12,000 miles per year and you’ll be saving gas money.

…… I could go on and on.

http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2009/10/ghosn-lays-out-nissans-electric-car-strategy.html
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10397707-54.html
-3 carcus1 Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 5:20 pm

It’s good to know there will be choices:

Aptera competition —
http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=54
+2 stuart22 Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

carcus1:
stuart22

Anybody who believes Nissan here is in total denial. Hey – I’ve got a bridge I’ll sell you for cheap!
-2 RB Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 5:40 pm

Tagamet: Although I (obviously) want to see the wheels on the road, I don’t see what more GM can do to accelerate the pace. They MUST get the Volt dead on correct. It’s already a tiny target and I don’t want to be jostling their elbow.

Tag
I agree as to the importance of perfecting the Volt as much as can be done, and taking enough time to get it right. GM could do what Nissan is doing, though, if gm wanted to do it. But I guess not as of now.
+3 Dan Petit Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 5:44 pm

stuart22:
Nissan is blowing smoke out of their stinky tailpipe with this number.I say, show me the basis for that figure…. otherwise my suspicion of Nissan remains…. that they’ve concocted the LEAF as a means to sieze the spotlight that Toyota has basked in with its hybrids, and which is tilting in GM’s direction now.Nissan fears the harm to their image if they fall behind in the post-ICE age that we are entering.
Coming from nothing, an EV gave them the quickest path towards media attention – and what’s keeping the light on their sham are the promises of high production numbers put out by American labor, promises of being affordable and hitting the marketplace soon….it’s interesting on this ‘tour’ around the country that there is no actual working model of the LEAF to see, only a dummy version….. it’s interesting that Nissan isn’t sure where the car will be priced at; whether the battery will be leased or sold with the car…..I’d like to see the real figures of what Nissan is investing in the development of the LEAF – if anybody knows, please give ‘em.Untilthen, my suspicions will remain that Nissan is not as sure about the LEAF’s future as people think.And to be honest, they shouldn’t be – the LEAF possesses all the fatal shortfalls inherent to pure EV’s.When it comes on up to Santa Rosa, I’m going to bring my fishing pole along to see if I can catch one.Or at least get a picture of me and my pole next to it.
taking place EVo keep from being lost in the dark,

Y’know what stuart22?, I just have this deep gut feeling you have something there to at least some extent. Several years ago, Nissan said that electric was not the way to go. But in a reversal of 180 degrees, they are going “all out”. If they “get it right the first time”, and properly represent its functionality without the “marketing” “up-to” ’s, then I wouldn’t mind that, as you say, their tour is with something that is not the real deal of the final technology-in-place.
But, the end product of all their representations remains to be seen. I like the way you stated your impressions.
Tagamet Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 6:08 pm

Herm:
But GM can do much better, back in its heyday it developed the Vega in flat out two years, and that was a revolutionary car.. Oh, wait a minute…

Exactly. Well said.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1 Tagamet Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 6:13 pm

RB:
Tag I agree as to the importance of perfecting the Volt as much as can be done, and taking enough time to get it right.GM could do what Nissan is doing, though, if gm wanted to do it. But I guess not as of now.

Maybe next week….. (g) Hey, it could happen.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1 LRGVProVolt Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 6:23 pm

#46

Kommi Kazi: “A Nissan Versa
outfitted with the LEAF powertrain will be around for VIP and media test drives, public drives will not be permitted.”Huh??Why do a PR tour without the real thing?Should be a hit with guys who love Elvis impersonators.Nissan will be indicted for this.

Just one more big difference between GM and its competition. How many opportunities will buyers have to test drive a real Volt before November 2010. Let me see: hundreds and maybe thousands! I know that’s a big wish. GM is all upfront with the Volt. Go GM!

Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Tagamet Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 6:26 pm

LRGVProVolt:
Just one more big difference between GM and its competition. How many opportunities will buyers have to test drive a real Volt before November 2010. Let me see: hundreds and maybe thousands! I know that’s a big wish. GM is all upfront with the Volt. Go GM!Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.

From your lips to God’s ear.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dan Petit Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 6:38 pm

As a matter of philosophy for electrification, I wouldn’t even need to test drive a Volt to buy it. (I just don’t want a black one).
Just tell me which Chevy Store has one, and we’ll just do the deal.

I decided to buy my current house the very second I saw the listing in the paper. When I get that immediately-compelling feeling that is completely overwhelming, it turns out to be right, (even though I still go through the motions of checking everything out). I still live in the same house, built on solid rock, of solid timbers, in a solid little neighborhood that is just great.

One more year and people will be getting Volts.
+1 camaro1 Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 6:43 pm

Badass Mofo: In collarado you can get a Tesla Roadster for nearly the price of a fully loaded Volt. And Tesla is a zero emission EV. The Volt is not even close to zero emissons. If you opt for a low level Volt just be sure you never come to a stoplight with a Roadster. The Volt will be TOAST ! (Quote)

Starting January 1st, 2010 the Tesla will only be eligible for the same $6000.00 Colorado rebate so the Volt will be far less expensive.
+1 Tagamet Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 8:05 pm

Dan Petit: As a matter of philosophy for electrification,I wouldn’t even need to test drive a Volt to buy it. (I just don’t want a black one).
Just tell me which Chevy Store has one, and we’ll just do the deal. I decided to buy my current house the very second I saw the listing in the paper.When I get that immediately-compelling feeling that is completely overwhelming,it turns out to be right, (even though I still go through the motions of checking everything out). I still live in the same house, built on solid rock, of solid timbers, in a solid little neighborhood that is just great. One more year and people will be getting Volts.

Gotta love leaps of faith!
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Johann Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 8:53 pm

GM didn’t say “BUT” as stated in the title of this blog. They said, “Electric vehicles are cool. Electric vehicles with range extenders are really cool.”

The word “but” can have a negating effect on the preceding statement.
-7 Mohsen Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 9:54 pm

Heh – the Nissan Leaf is an elegant EV where I can fit my Honda genset to the trunk (if necessary) – while the Volt is a mongrel parallel 2-mode hybrid with a heavy transmission and 4 mechanical clutches.

And then when you lift off the Volt’s accelerator, the thing breaks to a stop instead of coasting.

No machine lover will buy a Volt over a Leaf. Period.
+1 LRGVProVolt Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 9:55 pm

#70

Johann: The word “but” can have a negating effect on the preceding statement.

Lyle took a little liberty here since us Volt fans definitely feel that way. No big deal using BUT just differentiates one from the other.

Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3 LRGVProVolt Says:
November 14th, 2009 at 10:57 pm

#58

carcus1: It’s interesting to see the contrast between Ghosn and . . . . well, whoever’s running GM these days:

Lets examine each statement you have given.

#1. Price of the Volt vs Leaf.

GM gives you the price of the Volt out of the gate while Ghosn gives you what they want to price the Leaf at when they get to mass production after 2012.

#2. Profitablilty.

Same as above plus the Leaf is a simple BEV not as sophisticated as A Volt.

#3, The Grid.

GM has clearly supported the modernization of the grid and its need to extend travel for all EV’s. You fail to understand that Nissan is making the debut of the Leaf at five U.S. cities in 2010 that have committed to and begun building charging infrastructure. Get your facts straight!

#4. The Gas Tax.

Those were Rick Wagoner’s words you quote; please note, he is not with GM any more. I’ll give Ghosn credit for not mentioning it. Your statement about the Leaf saving money equally applies to Volt.

I’m sure you can come up with some legitimate and real differences between GM and Nissan like Nissan is committed to building only BEVs, not EREVs like GM. Also, GM intends to build BEVs in the near future

For your information, Edward E. Whitacre Jr is the chairman of GM now. He built AT&T Inc. into the biggest U.S. provider of telephone service over a 43-year-career.

Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-10 Mohsen Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 1:14 am

(click to show comment)

LRGVProVolt: Same as above plus the Leaf is a simple BEV not as sophisticated as A Volt

Sorry but Volt is not “sophisticated”. Volt is a convoluted overloaded prone-to-breakdown piece of bloated committee-engineering.

The Leaf is by far more sophisticated.
+2 ccombs Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 1:35 am

#73 LRGVProVolt, good points all.

It is odd that we are criticizing GM for not being optimistic enough about new technologies. Haven’t they always been criticized for being too rosy in their predictions concerning new whizbang techs? I suppose BEVs are the exception, but I think GM is being realistic here, not pessimistic. There are a lot of barriers to mass adoption of EVs in the US. GM would be wrong to discount the fact that BEVs work for some people, but they have every right to explain why EREVs work better for most people and are the only feasible option for many.

For instance, I would LOVE to have a pure BEV (especially an Aptera), but I simply cannot use one. I can only justify having one car and don’t have access to the current necessary to charge a BEV w/ a large battery. When I do need to use a car I often drive close to or more than 100 miles, or very short distances well within the Volt’s range. Granted, even an EREV doesn’t make much sense for me in the near future, since I mostly just use my bicycle to get places, but a BEV would not work at all. Maybe by gen II of the Volt I’ll be able to justify getting one…
+1 Dave K. Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 1:42 am

ccombs: barriers to mass adoption of EVs

I work for an organization which employees over 1000 people. We have two main parking structures which hold about 550 vehicles each. Each structure has 3 or 4 110v outlet parking spaces. In a recent work survey I asked for additional 110 and 220 parking stalls to be provided. Employees will see these new spaces and start to consider buying an EV.

This is how we get over the perceived hurdle of infrastructure shortfall. And as mentioned here many times. Most charging will occur between the low demand hours of 10 PM and 5 AM.

=D~
+3 nuclearboy Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 7:51 am

Mohsen: Heh – the Nissan Leaf is an elegant EV where I can fit my Honda genset to the trunk (if necessary) – while the Volt is a mongrel parallel 2-mode hybrid with a heavy transmission and 4 mechanical clutches.

I don’t think you understand the power of the genset. You do not have a honda generator that is both powerful enough and able to fit in your trunk.
+2 RB Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 8:04 am

Dave K.: In a recent work survey I asked for additional 110 and 220 parking stalls to be provided. Employees will see these new spaces and start to consider buying an EV.

A similar thing happened where I work (an organization with about 30,000 employees). The person in charge of facilities said it would be done.

He didn’t see installing outlets as a big deal — just a routine electrical work order — and is sympathetic to the goal. I think it is possible for people like me to over-estimate the difficulties involved for people who do electrical installations routinely.
Dave K. Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 8:32 am

“Electric Avenue” to feature as many as 20 electric vehicles…
…But don’t expect to see the Chevy Volt.

http://www.freep.com/article/20091113/BUSINESS01/911130317/1002/rss02

=D~
+2 Dan Petit Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 8:55 am

nuclearboy:
I don’t think you understand the power of the genset.You do not have a honda generator that is both powerful enough and able to fit in your trunk.

For Mohsen’s Honda generator suggestion:
The Honda 3000iu is 3kw if that’s what was suggested. That ought to be good for about 10 miles per hour (lol). And, you might only need to stop every three miles to wait for it to charge the battery for fifteen minutes at a time before proceeding merrily (or not), to a nearby destination.

But if that 3000iu was the generator suggested, you might consider doing the energy-math for that 3000iu for a three wheeled plug-in EREV (20 mile aer) motorcycle setup that is not too heavy. That would be interesting to see if someone sized the correct technologies for something like that, and, how much it would cost to do that if it were feasible!!
Dan Petit Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 9:35 am

Dan Petit:
For Mohsen’s Honda generator suggestion:
The Honda 3000iu is 3kw if that’s what was suggested. That ought to be good for about 10 miles per hour (lol).And, you might only need to stop every three miles to wait for it to charge the battery for fifteen minutes at a time before proceeding merrily (or not), to a nearby destination.But if that 3000iu was the generator suggested, you might consider doing the energy-math for that 3000iu for a three wheeled plug-in EREV(20 mile aer) motorcycle setup that is not too heavy.That would be interesting to see if someone sized the correct technologies for something like that, and, how much it would cost to do that if it were feasible!!

Post script.
So, if a three wheeled EREV plug-in motorcycle (with, say, a 30 to 40 inch or so rear track) is proposed, (since we are talking about EREV’s here), and Mohsen has (I think) a 3000iu Honda Generator (that really nice quiet one), then, what would be the top speed if the trike weighed in at, say, 900 pounds with rider? (One fourth of Volt?). And, what motor and battery array voltage and wattage would we need to go the first 15 to 20 miles all electric? How long would the generator need to run at the first destination (if at 15 miles battery depleted)? What weight/cd would need to be cut if we need to maintain 45 mph with generator power only?
Dave K. Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 9:38 am

Dan.. the Aptera Typ-1 is reported as “extended range”.

Another way to go is with the Kawasaki T-Rex three wheeler. The T-Rex comes with 190HP and a 0-60 @ 4 seconds. This would be a pure commuter/racer as no storage space would remain. The stock T-Rex stickers for $39k.

=D~
LRGVProVolt Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 9:40 am

#76

ccombs: GM would be wrong to discount the fact that BEVs work for some people, but they have every right to explain why EREVs work better for most people and are the only feasible option for many.

I agree ccombs,

If you do a query at MapQuest.com on distances between major cities, you’ll find that a range of even 200 miles is inadequate to reach a good number of those cities where businessmen would want to travel. A BEV with AER of 100 miles just doesn’t make it. Until battery technology advances to the point of say 300 miles, GM’s Volt with total range of over 300 miles remains the best solution. Nissan is really looking at a niche market of the urban areas and definitely needs a charging infrastructure in place around those cities to justify having only 100 miles range if the Leaf even really gets that many miles to a charge.

Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
LRGVProVolt Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 10:07 am

#80

Dave K.: “Electric Avenue” to feature as many as 20 electric vehicles…
…But don’t expect to see the Chevy Volt.http://www.freep.com/article/20091113/BUSINESS01/911130317/1002/rss02=D~

Dave K.,

You missed the part about the Volt being shown elsewhere at Cobo. “But don’t expect to see the Chevy Volt or Toyota Prius, which are to be shown elsewhere at Cobo.”

Nice picture of the Volt though.

Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Eric E Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

You’ll only forget to plug in your EV once!
Dan Petit Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

Dave K.: Dan.. the Aptera Typ-1 is reported as “extended range”.Another way to go is with the Kawasaki T-Rex three wheeler. The T-Rex comes with 190HP and a 0-60 @ 4 seconds. This would be a pure commuter/racer as no storage space would remain. The stock T-Rex stickers for $39k.=D~

Somewhere market-wise between that $39,000 “T-Rex”, and, not anywhere near that sort of extreme power output,
and,
what I would widely guess to be the basic components for a three wheeled EREV motorcycle with a quiet genset, (although being sure of emf containment of the motor), of, say, between 12,000 bucks to 14,000 bucks max in the **retail values** of the components, I would like to see a retailed value for what I described above of around $20,000.

Most of the time, people go places by themselves, and, the stability of three wheels as opposed to only two would be the swing factor for greater acceptance, it would seem to me.
Why not have a way to glide through the air quietly and enjoy the ride even more so.

Many people have a second car. I wouldn’t mind having another EREV motorcycle vehicle like this in addition to a Volt.

Too many manufacturers of electric bikes and electric motorcycles are really missing the boat when not offering a stable three wheeled electric EREV motorcycle, which would have a far larger and immediately-accepting market.
eightzero Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

Forgetting to buy gas for your volt is not cool either. Or forgetting the key. Of forgetting to bring it home. Yeesh. How hard is it to remember to plug in? And I live 3 blocks from a car rental place. If I need a gas guzzler for an extended trip (maybe 3 times a year) I’ll go rent one.

Gimme a Leaf. Make it affordable.
JohnJ Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

DaV8or:
I agree with what you are saying, but I wouldn’t put to much faith in Nissan flooding the markets with cheap EVs made by the millions. I think we will find the LEAF to be as scarce as the Volt for years to come and I doubt that all Nissan dealers will be selling them initially.

Agreed, especially since Nissan has yet to do a national release of the Altima hybrid, which has been for sale in select areas of the US since 2007.
RDOCA Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

DaV8or: This goofy little video comes off contradictory and over simplified. First is says that electric vehicles are cool because the use home grown electric power for greater energy independence and lower emissions. That sounds really great. Then they demonstrate how the Volt, when it’s battery runs low, a range extending generator “kicks in” allowing the Volt to run circles around the EV (Why they picked a VW Bug to depict an EV is beyond me). Problem is, everybody knows that a generator runs on gas made from foreign oil and spews emissions out of the tail pipe. This might leave the viewer with an understanding of why an EREV is superior to an EV, but not how it is any different than a hybrid like the Prius. When they do check a little closer, they’re going to find that the Volt will cost almost double what the Prius will cost. The case for buying a Volt over a EV is made clear, but not why the Volt is superior to a conventional hybrid. IMO, GM needs Prius conquest sales, not LEAF or iMiev conquests. I think this video misses the point of the Volt and that combined with poor production value and sloppy execution, makes for a lame and ineffective ad campaign. (Quote)

Why is it that I keep seeing posters say that the Volt will cost the price of 2 Prius? I just priced a Prius on Edmunds and it was $33600 and if the estimate of the Volt is correct at $40k minus $7500 it will be $1100 less than the Prius I would buy. Of course you can buy a bare bones Prius and it is less but that is not what all of would buy.
Roy
JohnK Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

Dave K.: “Electric Avenue” to feature as many as 20 electric vehicles…
…But don’t expect to see the Chevy Volt.

You really must be a bit fairer. The article explains that the Volt will have a more prominent place on the main floor and that “Electric Avenue” is a low budget area meant to promote EV’s that could not otherwise afford to be at this prestigous show.
Regards,
John
Peder Norby Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

Eric E: You’ll only forget to plug in your EV once! (Quote)

I agree, unless you’re a little shall we say, tipsy

Don’t drink and drive, on top of everything else, you may forget to plug in and miss an important meeting the next morning

Cheers Mini-E #183
peder
Dave K. Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

JohnK: You really must be a bit fairer.

Hi JohnK, I agree the heading on post #79 is a bit misleading. The idea is to have people read the article. hee hee

=D~
JohnK Says:
November 15th, 2009 at 10:03 pm

Ariel Atom: Tesla Roadster – King of the Rocky Mountains
Chevy Volt – Queen of the Smokey Mountains*

I have a friend that did a full border to border bicycle ride from Canada to Mexico over the ridge of the rockies and then the equivalent in the Appalachians. The Appalachians are more of a challenge for this simple reason: the roads are much older, designed when it was too hard to cut through the mountains. The grades are much steeper in the appalachians, 18% in a few places, especially Pennsylvania (gee do you suppose that is a coincidence that that is where the Volts did their shakedown trip).
+1 Mike_FL Says:
November 16th, 2009 at 10:03 am

Looking at the big picture I think any company bringing EV’s or EREV’s to market is a win for all but in response to your comment. We don’t get all our oil from religion hijacking* morons who breed suicide bombers. If we can lessen our need for oil enough we will not have to buy from them. For example, if I had a Volt I’d probably only have to use gas about once every two months. My wife might have to use a little more but the difference before Volt and after would be massive. As it is now even if the U.S. can secure oil from all allies it just means another country will have to buy from the religion hijackers*.

*To be clear on my use of the term “religion hijackers” I am referring to people who use Islam for evil. The true believers/followers are just as threatened from the evil idiots as anyone else.

DaV8or: This goofy little video comes off contradictory and over simplified. First is says that electric vehicles are cool because the use home grown electric power for greater energy independence and lower emissions. That sounds really great. Then they demonstrate how the Volt, when it’s battery runs low, a range extending generator “kicks in” allowing the Volt to run circles around the EV (Why they picked a VW Bug to depict an EV is beyond me).Problem is, everybody knows that a generator runs on gas made from foreign oil and spews emissions out of the tail pipe. This might leave the viewer with an understanding of why an EREV is superior to an EV, but not how it is any different than a hybrid like the Prius. When they do check a little closer, they’re going to find that the Volt will cost almost double what the Prius will cost. The case for buying a Volt over a EV is made clear, but not why the Volt is superior to a conventional hybrid. IMO, GM needs Prius conquest sales, not LEAF or iMiev conquests. I think this video misses the point of the Volt and that combined with poor production value and sloppy execution, makes for a lame and ineffective ad campaign.
+1 jake Says:
November 16th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

I have to agree with some posters. GM is focused a bit too much on the limitations of BEVs rather than on the benefits it can provide over a hybrid.

All this video is trying to do is convert potential BEV buyers to EREV. But that doesn’t really accomplish anything as the market for both BEVs and EREVs currently is really limited. GM is just cannibalizing the market for EVs in general (maybe even shrinking it by spreading the range anxiety FUD, which is counter productive to plug-in expansion goals). But the Volt has what it takes for mass market appeal (pricing aside), so it should really try to convert normal car buyers rather than trying to convince people BEVs don’t work.

There’s a good chunk of people who won’t even consider any kind of plug-in; that’s who GM should be more heavily targeting if they want the Volt to be a sales success, not just the limited early adopter niche who is already considering a plug-in.
Loboc Says:
November 16th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

RB: Those dealers will be bad choices while Volts require frequent factory software updates.

I never have to take my PC to Microsoft for updates Over-the-air updates are not only possible, but probable.
Ken Says:
November 17th, 2009 at 10:12 pm

Nissan plans to sell 100,000 Leaf vehicles by 2012 – those manufactured in Tennessee. Hope to see some Volts on the road in tennessee before then – leased batteries/car – wouldn’t try that again after the EV-1. I want something I can jury-rig if GM pulls the plug.

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GM: EVs are Cool, but EREV’s are Really Cool

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