AND 
Chevy Volt is the Centerpiece for Many Rapidly Emerging Industries
Once in a while an epic Volt story is published in the media. Such is the 6000 word piece penned by Bernard Avishai for Inc. magazine.
The Volt is described in truly revolutionary terms not just for its ability to drive without oil or how it would be a halo car for GM but more importantly how it forms the centerpiece of an explosively growing suite of industries.
It is explained how people will seek electric cars primarily for cost savings once gas goes over $3 per gallon.
“At that level,” GM VP Jon Lauckner tells the author, “the cost of running a Volt in full electric mode will be about one-sixth that of a gas-driven car of the same size, 2 or 3 cents a mile rather than 12 to 15 cents a mile. We figured that, for most people, this means a savings of about $1,500 a year.” The value of range anxiety reduction is also described as giving the Volt an advantage over competitors such as the Nissan LEAF.
A very critical and perhaps more important success factor with tremendous national impact though will be the interaction with the Volt and the grid
An executive from utility company Duke Power is quoted as saying, “if every American home had a Volt, he says, total power usage in the country would increase only about 10 percent.” His company and many others are developing the tools to handle this and more importantly to achieve ideal load distribution so that charging isn’t done simultaneously by many cars at peak times.
The Volt will be smart enough to program time of charging in, but it is perhaps more important that utility companies be able to read the demand of all the country’s electric cars concurrently and be able to manage the charging elegantly. The elements to obtain this orchestration of supply and demand to the benefit of all parties is beginning to emerge.
This is the rapid transformational growth stemming from the electrification of the automobile that is upon us, akin to the Internet of the early 90s. Many startups are forming to deal with this new network of the smart electric car and smart gird interface. As an early mover, GM has the chance for tremendous future success.
Our friend Volt executive Tony Posawatz was quoted as saying “our urgent challenge is to become the leading integrator of the sustainable transportation-energy ecosystem — to control the intellectual property governing the integration of the battery to the car and the car to the grid.” The author translates what Tony is really saying is:
If GM plays its cards right, it could well incubate, and own, the new industry’s crucial operating and telecommunications standards, the anchors for thousands of smaller technology companies supporting the electric car’s components, information, and entertainment and charging needs.
Beyond the explosive growth of the lithium battery industry fueled by government loans and grants and A123’s IPO, GM has its own internal plans for future battery advances.
Former executive Bob Kruse explains that GM’s 3rd generation Volt battery will use non-liquid solid-state cells that have twice the energy density and half the cost. GM’s close collaborator Ann Marie Sastry at the U. of Michigan who has founded the battery start-up Sastry3 is apparently working on developing such cells.
“Liquid electrolytes present integration limits — also limits on energy density. We think that disruptive manufacturing techniques can improve performance dramatically, as in the chip industry.” Sastry said. “We aim to create a cheap, scalable process.”
Another electric car-induced industry will be for battery packs that have passed their vehicular lifetime but still have 75% storage capacity.
“It is easy to imagine warehouses full of used batteries sucking up wind energy and saving it for times the wind does not blow, or homeowners using the pack as backup,” said Pozawatz.
Home and public charging station companies will also proliferate. Highlighted is California start-up Coulomb Technologies who is pioneering the networked EV charging industry. The company’s CEO is former Cisco executive Richard Lowenthal who explains how networking software is the key to his company’s product.
“The key to our infrastructure and our venture funding is our network software applications,” said Lowenthal. “Our chargers are smart enough to consolidate payment from subscribers to all the various power companies, or tell drivers over their phones where they can find incentive pricing, and so forth.”
Software development is also a crucial new industry representing the brain of the Volt; choosing how to balance generator and battery ouptut against rapidly changing load demands from both the road and driver.
Furthermore, ensuring the car is able to communicate outward to the grid, service providers and the Internet is very important in the Volt. Here GM holds a fearsome advantage over its competitors by owing OnStar which as we know will be deeply knitted into the Volts operating system.
“We are focusing on the car and building in the capacity to roll up charging data, which can be placed at the door of the power company,” said Posawatz.
The killer app though could be supplied by a company called GridPoint that will supply the link between the electric car and the utility grid, allowing the utility companies to comprehend and act on the information provided by many thousands of electric cars like the Volt
“We see companies like GridPoint managing what utilities do with data behind the door, providing back to our drivers the charging, billing, and other services that will maximize the cost effectiveness and environment benefit of owning an electric vehicle,” said Posawatz
All of these new industries that the Volt represent a starting point for are also being subsidized by government in the way of the billions of dollars of loans and stimulus money already supplied by the Obama administration, guaranteeing their success.
As this story compellingly tells, we have arrived at a truly transformational point in history for the country, the economy, society, and the environment, and sitting right at the heart of it all is none other than the Chevy Volt.
Source (Inc)
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November 4th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Thanks Lyle. Mainstream media are getting more and more interested. Let’s hope GM do not disappoint them.
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November 4th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
The cost savings of vehicle electrification are what almost everyone mentions. But that’s not the primary reason I’m interested in the Volt. I drive a lot – my 5.5 year old Mazda 6 has 171500 km on it, and is going strong. I don’t anticipate my driving patterns changing substantially once I’m driving the Volt, hopefully in in 2-3 years.
No, what interests me is the driving experience. I prefer the direct connection of engine to road that one gets with a manual transmission. The Volt will have that from a standstill to highway speeds, without any shifting. For my purposes, the Volt could have a much smaller battery. It’s the electric drivetrain that I think will ultimately win over the majority of drivers. The Volt will revolutionize the automobile fleet, but perhaps not for the obvious reasons.
The other thing it will revolutionize is the power grid, as this article implies. My house already has a “smart meter”, as will all houses in Ontario within a year or so. Once the connections and software exist to have the Volt battery act as a grid-integrated power storage resource, distributed solar and wind power will suddenly make enormous sense.
We live in exciting times!
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November 4th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
The future is bright. This is about more than just a car… it’s about the entire future of motoring!
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November 4th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
And I am glad I am living to see it! I missed the switch from steam to diesel.
All kidding aside, it is a major shift.
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November 4th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Someone in the media gets it! How strange is that?
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November 4th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Nice article, its an exciting time, just one year away. Even more interesting what will be the next big thing. Maybe I’m getting ahead of myself lol
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November 4th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
great article Lyle, thanks for posting!
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November 4th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
“An executive from utility company Duke Power is quoted as saying, “if every American home had a Volt, he says, total power usage in the country would increase only about 10 percent.”
He says “every american home” almost lightly. That’s ALOT of Volts! And still only 10%. And that’s 10% of TODAY’S total capacity, which will rise in the future. So hopefully this ends the “WHAT ABOUT THE POWER GRID?!?!?!” questions.
IT’S THE POWER OF TWO PLASMA TVS. There will be zero affect on the grid until there are more than 1 million EVs on the road.
This is sort of like people freaking out if there wasn’t a nationwide network of gas stations already in place when the petrol cars became commercial in the late 1800s.
If you build the car, there will be a need for plugs. Businesses that charge your car will appear. Let capitalism do its thing, its your friend.
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November 4th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
It’s probably because I’m tired, but I don’t get this one sentence:
“All of these new industries that the Volt represent a starting point for are also being subsidized by government in the way of the billions of dollars of loans and stimulus money already supplied by the Obama administration, guaranteeing their success.”
First, this article appears to claim that the Volt is the cause of all these industries, e.g. lithium ion technology. But wasn’t the Volt itself inspired by Tesla — manufacturer of cars powered entirely by lithium ion technology?
Second, is the above sentence indicating that Federal loans and stimulus money somehow guarantee the success of entire industries? What am I missing?
Respectfully,
Dr. Ibringdoh
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November 4th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
The one thing I have not seen is this. You pull up to the parking meter and plug in. What if the electric is more expensive that the
Volt can make it for? Let the generator run to charge the unit back up. I have seen nothing on this.
Take Care
Arch
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November 4th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
Speaking of plugs, this is preatty funny!
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/0,39029552,49303764-1,00.htm
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November 4th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Wohoo! More recognition. I think solar companies would make a killing here in the southwest by partnering with Volt purchasers. I’m sure an excellent cottage industry will pop up around the Volt.
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:00 am
Yeah, totally. I love the article. There are so many cool aspects about the Volt that even this article doesn’t begin to realize.
Once you have a sizeable onboard store of electricity and computer, there is so much more cool things that can be done with an electric car. Besides the improved the driveability, the power, the cost savings, the convenience of not going to gas stations, the ability to freely drive as much as you want (I have family that coincidentally live 40 miles away, how nice would it be to see them for a less than a dollar?), being able to have back up power in your home during power outages, or peak demand, could save you money, you could take your Volt camping and plug it in your RV, or just have electricity for lights and heaters and televisions and what not in your tent and the generator would come on automatically.
Integrating the computer on the Volt makes a huge difference because that computer can tell you anything you need to know, when to change your oil, or when a part is failing. Putting a wireless transmitter on the car so that you can connect to it would be really nice so that it would be on your home network like your computers, your Wii and your car
. It can be an mp3 player, so you could just put music on your car’s computer wirelessly and play it while you’re driving, if GM was smart they’d have open development for apps like the iPhone has.
GM needs to open up for suggestions for software that they could put on the Volt, then have people vote for their top 10 picks and make it happen. The possibilities are endless.
Of course there are so many other emerging markets that the Volt could integrate in the future such as the solar industry. Solar panels are upgrading their efficiency all the time. How nice would it be to have a self charging Volt? You don’t even have to plug it into the grid because it charges all day. A few of us in the forums figured with current solar technology, you could probably get about 8 free miles a day with 2 square meters of solar panels on the roof.
Solar panels also open the vehicle to a lot more possibilities since the vehicle can run the HVAC system even when you’re not in the car so that it’s the perfect temperature whenever you get in.
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:15 am
Heated/cooled cupholders would be hot/cool
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:19 am
Actually, the Volt came from the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV), and an earlier EV1 Serial Plug-In Concept.
Links-
EV1 Serial Plug-In Concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV1#EV1_series_hybrid
Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles:
http://www.pngv.org/main/
=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:46 am
What a load of bunk. What worries me most is that all I saw was cheerleaders posting before me. Can you be a Volt fan and be discerning at the same time?
“It is explained how people will seek electric cars primarily for cost savings once gas goes over $3 per gallon.
“At that level,” GM VP Jon Lauckner tells the author, “the cost of running a Volt in full electric mode will be about one-sixth that of a gas-driven car of the same size, 2 or 3 cents a mile rather than 12 to 15 cents a mile. We figured that, for most people, this means a savings of about $1,500 a year.”
Uh, a Prius gets 50 MPG so it costs 6 cents per mile. Even a 30 MPG (which is fairly average for a car the size of the Volt) car costs “only” 10 cents/mile.
So the savings is 4 to 8 cents. At 12,000 miles that is $500 to 1,000 per year, not $1,500.
To make up the cost difference from a $22,000 Prius or an $18,000 Civic to a 40,000 Volt would take ~600,000 miles (50 years) and ~315,000 miles (26 years).
Whenever I see someone resorting to half truths such as these I have to assume their position is VERY weak indeed.
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:33 am
The Volt is to the Prius/Insight as a DVD is to a VHS tape – technologically more advanced, far more refined in feel than the Prius & Insight; smoother and quieter than a Rolls Royce. There simply won’t be reason to make direct comparisons once the Volt hits the pavement. It will outshine them both in so many ways.
Think Lexus>Toyota….. BMW>VW….. Mercedes>Honda. Volt>Prius. The Volt is simply a different class of car.
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November 5th, 2009 at 2:51 am
Nice post thanks for sharing it with us..I think the future lies on these kind of energies and I think this is the first step moving towards the future..
GREAT.
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November 5th, 2009 at 3:21 am
This is a great time to be alive. Just about everyday there’s another scientific breakthrough in technology but many of them go unreported.
The Volt is on the cutting edge of new technology and we owe the breakthrough to the laptop and it’s need for better batteries. The laptop we owe to the desktop. The desktop we owe to the space program…and so on. With each breakthrough there’s another myriad of possibilities.
We can’t cure the flu but we can prevent it. It will be exciting to see what happens in the next decade.
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November 5th, 2009 at 4:28 am
Jackson, go figure, huh? Good grief it is about time.
So, how are you? Did you find employment or are you sitting back for a little while? I hope you are well.
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November 5th, 2009 at 4:41 am
Articles like this will make Big Oil executives choke on their cornflakes. I did not see how they will figure in this story. For them the electrification of the auto mobile turns their untold trillions of oil dollars still in the ground to worthless salt.
They will fight. But it looks like they are going to have to up the dirty tricks and misinformation budget massively to hold this baby back.
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November 5th, 2009 at 5:50 am
From the article:
If GM plays its cards right, it could well incubate, and own, the new industry’s crucial operating and telecommunications standards, the anchors for thousands of smaller technology companies supporting the electric car’s components, information, and entertainment and charging needs.
This concerns me a bit. Wasn’t it GM that bought up the trolley car business and shut them down so they could sell more cars?
If they own it all, I hope they don’t stifle innovation.
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November 5th, 2009 at 6:20 am
It’s great to have some positive press on the Volt, but I have some problems with the article, for example the tag line is:
Someone flipping through the pages will just get the idea that the Volt will require stuff that doesn’t exist, so it’s not ready for prime time. And this reinforces many peoples existing ideas.
We need to make sure that people understand that, unlike pure BEVs, the Volt does not require any new infrastructure to use. EREV technology is completely viable right now. This message always seems to get buried somehow.
Yes, the Volt and other plug-ins will encourage an ecosystem of new technologies that may improve things further, and that’s a very good thing. But to imply that these new technologies are required, that’s the wrong message…
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November 5th, 2009 at 6:55 am
Dr. Ibringdoh,
I believe they may be talking about the Administration’s $3.4 billion in grants to “Smart Grid” projects. More on this is available at this link.
http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre59q1ac-us-obama-grid/
For a description of the smart grid, see here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:16 am
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:22 am
(I’m a broken record) Every period of significant growth in our country has had a catalyst. Most recent was the information and communication revolutions which are now pretty mature.
The next growth period (if there is one) will be based on our economy switching from importing our energy (and exporting our cash) to producing our energy domestically. As Lyle’s article demonstrates this creates whole new growth sectors besides just producing the electricity but also managing the load which will keep the costs down.
We can see this starting to take place, and the current government is favorable to these changes. Yet they need to do more to speed up the process. The first step should be to change the credit for electric cars to $7500 cash at time of purchas and expand the credit for the first million cars sold in the US before starting to slowly phase out the credit.
Each Volt sold will have an economic impact probably at least $20,000 greater than the cost of the car itself.
Each Volt will displace between $12,000 and $24,000 american dollars going overseas for oil.
Each Volt sold will lead to American jobs building and designing electric mobility.
Each Volt sold will spur demand for a smart grid that can level the daily demand for electricity which in the long run will lower energy costs.
The electrification of personal mobility will lead to increased investment in renewable source of energy and hopefully more nuclear energy which in the short run creates jobs and in the long run creates cheaper energy.
Each Volt sold gets us closer to the day when we don’t need to patrol the persian golf to keep the oil flowing. The day we don’t need to import oil anymore is the day we can retire at least one complete carrier strike group (The Navy maintains 11 carrier strike groups) at a savings greater than all the subsidies the government will make for all electric cars.
(doesn’t look like my attempt to include a picture of a Navy Carrier Strike group worked, so try link) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Abraham-Lincoln-battlegroup.jpg
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:23 am
Good post Pat.
Joblessness leads to desperation. Desperation leads to crime. Crime leads to increased Police patrols. More Police patrols require more Police vehicles.
Future Voltec vehicles are a good fit. Time for a 130 MPH Voltec Caprice. Voltec ambulance with hospital recharge capability. And Voltec personel transports.
=D~
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:41 am
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:42 am
“Former executive Bob Kruse explains that GM’s 3rd generation Volt battery will use non-liquid solid-state cells that have twice the energy density and half the cost”
Ok lets start the wait list for GEN3!
Can someone tell me if this technology uses Lithium or if it has other rare metal elements needed? Or are we talking about regular old wafers, integrated circuits?
“As this story compelling tells, we have arrived at a truly transformational point in history for the country, the economy, society, and the environment, and sitting right at the heart of it all is none other than the Chevy Volt”
If GM is really focusing on all of these disruptive technologies that will change society and propel GM to be one of the most successful and important companies in the world, why aren’t they also planning higher production rates and other EREV models in the near future?
Why is it that I keep thinking GM is at the HUB of our countries future economic growth, but that they will be out of business and whoever picks up the pieces will be the big winner.
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:51 am
I think all these innovations are great, but what will drive it is the battery development. So the biggest thing is to just get electric cars on the road. Fortunately there are companies, Nissan and Ford primarily that are just going to get a few million BEVs out there in the next 5 years. Maybe this GEN 3 battery is the point where it won’t make sense to make ANY cars that aren’t BEV or EREV.
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:52 am
Aren’y we forgetting one simple thing?
None of this can happen until we get some Volts on the road!!!!
This last year of waiting will be a long one………….
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:59 am
There are a good bit of financially responsible people in the U.S. but I know what you are saying. Way to many people want something for nothing. Hard work should be celebrated but it’s to bad lots of people in the world see the world ‘hard’ and automatically associated negativity with it.
If you want an example of hard work being fulfilling just look at Lyle. He is a wonderful example for all people. Have a good attitude and run full steam ahead all day. Lyle is a great American and I respect and look up to him.
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:05 am
Perhaps, but even if we electrify all cars sold within 10 years, it will still be 20 years till 99% of all cars on the road are electric.
It might take 20 years to switch 18 wheelers to natural gas (or some other technology).
And since we import 2/3 of our oil which is about what cars and trucks use, our domestic oil industry would still be kept busy creating jet fuel, home heating fuel (which I wish those folks would find other ways to heat their homes) and other industrial uses.
So when you say big oil, I think those aren’t the folks I worry about.
It is the Saudis and Iranians if they see that we are committed to creating technologies that will cut off their life blood, how will they react. Thats what worries me (a little).
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:08 am
If your company is not moving ahead by remaining “stationary” or by not very seriously advancing somehow, your company is falling behind very seriously by staying “stationary”.
Advancing mindsets constantly keep in touch with what every single thing GM is doing, why they are doing it, how they are doing it, the patterns in which they are doing it, the careful and measured steps and benchmarks with which they are doing it, and on and on.
A fascinating thing is happening out here in the independent auto servicing universe (no big chains). I now have 159 independent auto repair servicing shops. As I go back to some of the older customers whose shops I’ve trained long ago (about 4 years), there seem to be two categories of perceptions regarding electrification. Looks of deeply respectful interest, and, alternately, looks of deep concern on techs’ faces.
More and more are becoming increasingly in tune with what I tell them, and, all I tell them is to follow what I say on this site.
Today’s article is a keeper for all you technicians out there.
And, as electrification may potentially reduce available customers and jobs that are “heavy line” (low tech), as well as ICE emissions and processor diagnostics (very high tech), only the best will financially survive, the very ones who realize they had better get started with advanced training *now*.
(Online advice/history does not work well enough by itself, and is only **empiricism**, which is using only historical failure referencing then experimenting/guessing wrong at the customer’s expense).
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Sorry Pat, but Greed drives our economy. People are somewhat lazy by nature as you insinuate, the way to motivate them is with greed (or as I think about it, a possiblity for a better life).
My wife is alive right now because some greedy bastard at a pharmaceutical company developed a monoclonal antibody to fight lymphoma. These companies don’t always invest for the good of mankind. They invest for profit. I for one appreciate this type of greed.
Early americans found that when people were allowed to keep the profits from their farming (and not just farm for the good of all), that the production of food increased. Greed, unfortunately, drives a capitalist economy.
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:12 am
I know a few have replied already but I was actually going to quote the first part of that myself
“All of these new industries that the Volt represent a starting point for are also being subsidized by government in the way of the billions of dollars of loans and stimulus money already supplied by the Obama administration, guaranteeing their success.”
This implies throwing money at a problem guarantees its success. I know that’s the way our government thinks and it kills me.
To me the Volt is the best engineering solution out there because it DOESN’T require a lot of government money (bailout for GM aside). There really doesn’t need to be any new infrastructure out there for EV’s. And the applications where charging stations make sense can be installed by one of these new companies looking to make a buck on EV’s. It doesn’t require taxpayer manhattan project cash to implement and gets us from importing so much foreign oil.
If there is one thing the government should do it would be to put a floor on oil so when it dips down below $75 again the difference is put towards our national debt. and as EV’s gain steam and oil goes down to $50 a barrel gas still costs $2.50 a gallon and $25 per barrel is going towards paying back our debt. If oil never goes below $75 again then hey we’ve got a market for EREV’s that isn’t oil price dependant.
Aside from this one political paragraph I very much enjoyed the article.
Rant over
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:14 am
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Folks with agendas are also bad at math. The volt does pay for itself if you drive as many folks do. But before the volt is produced in numbers for the masses to buy it the price will come down quite a bit. The Volt sounds like a much nicer car to drive than the Prius also. But if you want apples to apples
Volt 33,000 after rebate and still better equipped than a 22,000 Prius (probably should be comparing to a 26,000 equipped Prius), but even still, if your premium is 11,000 then here is the math:
Drive 15,000 AER a year or 150,000 AER in 10 years would save 3333 gallons of gas compared to a PRIUS at $5 gallon (conservative average cost of gas from 2012-2021), would save you $17000, which would cover your up from extra 11,000 plus interest plus the 5 cents a KWH for over night charging or about $1500 for 10 years).
But you can’t compare the prius to the cost of the GEN1 volt because it will be bought out by folks that understand the other savings to our society (see post #26) and just want to drive electric. GEN2 and GEN3 will blow away the cost savings.
Also don’t be nieve. Gas prices are headed way up in the next few years. There could be short term drops if economies fade. But our deficits guarantee a weaker dollar long term and the oil coming online in the next 15 years will be much more expensive than the oil fields being depleted in that time (every year 4 million barrels per day has to be added to replace oil fields that are being depleted and that number will also go up).
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:31 am
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Great post, great site, great car – what a rush ! Bring it home, GM !!
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:39 am
If batteries go good in the future., we won’t need the grid for residentila usage or the gummint or utilities to control us. Get real.
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:40 am
The only thing Government money can guarantee is that it will lock out other even better tech. The Government should not choose the winner. Our next energy may come from something we have not even thought of yet. But OUR Government haas tunnel vision. Government should stay out of it. Electric cars were going to happen anyway.
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:45 am
It’ll be more than a year for most of us. However, just seeing them in the car mags and having Volts on the road will be a good show.
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:45 am
From the article by Bernard Avishai – “Socialism is finished because the old machine-industrial capitalism against which it arose is finished, superseded by technologies so transformative that it seems a privilege to be alive just to witness their diffusion.”
While there may have been a few sincere academics who truly espouse the tenets of socialism, the vast majority of the “advocates” of socialism are what Ayn Rand termed “looters” and “moochers”. “Looters” and “moochers” never go away, they just find different means by which to sustain themselves. In our modern day, they take the form of lawyers, politicians, consumer advocates, editorialists, etc., insisting that they are advocating for the less fortunate, but are really lining their own pockets. I term these individuals as members of the “Industry of the Problem” – they advocate for those victims of the “Problem”, while preventing any real solution to the “Problem”, so that they may keep profitting from their advocacy. Oprah Winfrey, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Charles Schumer and countless other faceless “advocates” between them and the victims all want the situation to persist.
Yes, machine-industrial capitalism has evolved, but so have the “looters” and “moochers”. You build a better mouse trap, and nature provides a better mouse.
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:54 am
I agree that I don’t want government running things. But face it they will always pick winners and losers by how they do taxes or in this case tax credits. And this is a matter of national security and economic viability (post #26). Subsidizing electric personal mobility has instant paybacks to society (stoping outflow of payments for oil etc. post #26) that cannot be denied.
I agree that government shouldn’t be picking winners, and rather than going out and giving money to folks to build plants and battery startups, I’d much rather see the government stick to just credits for the end product, in this case a cash rebate for the purchase of cars that don’t burn fossil fuels. If instead of all those billions they’ve already given to start ups and other companies if they just said $10,000 cash rebate for any vehicle that is warrantied for 150,000 miles AER and leave it up to the free market to take advantage of that, we’d get there sooner.
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:55 am
#39 Asian Jerk
Dang! I hate to think how expensive you think the battery for the Leaf will be. Based on your GUESS of $20,000.00 for the Volt’s battery I assume you think the battery for the Leaf will hit $40,000.00 or more.
I suggest you buy stock in the oil companys as the electric car can not survive under your price expectations.
Me, I’ll buy my Volt!
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Greed is too short a yardstick to describe/measure Americans.
Many, many of us just do things for the fun of it with no intention of profiting from the effort. That’s what makes America great! Build something in your garage just for the exercise of figuring it out. Yeah, maybe you can make an Apple computer, but, maybe you just do it to do it.
It’s the diversity of thinking, the sweat equity of thinking if you will, not merely the driving forces of profit. Tell Americans that something ‘cannot be done’ and it will happen faster than you can post about it.
Mr. Toyoda thinks that Volt is a waste of time. Well maybe it is if you are not American. To Americans, any pursuit is worthwhile; profitable or not.
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:05 am
A very critical and perhaps more important success factor with tremendous national impact though will be the interaction with the Volt and the grid
An executive from utility company Duke Power is quoted as saying, “if every American home had a Volt, he says, total power usage in the country would increase only about 10 percent.” His company and many others are developing the tools to handle this and more importantly to achieve ideal load distribution so that charging isn’t done simultaneously by many cars at peak times.
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When one cuts through the pious tone, one sees that what is going to happen is that one will plug in but not get any electricity into one’s car until Duke Power (now officially named Duke Energy) gets around to providing it which they will do for the good of their system in some collective manner. As one of their customers, I’d say that prospect is a little scary. The no-response response is why Duke Energy is so slow to fix your power line after a storm — too busy looking after higher and greater powers. Some things they do well, but relating to individual retail customers is not one of them.
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:13 am
“.. Bob Kruse explains that GM’s 3rd generation Volt battery will use non-liquid solid-state cells that have twice the energy density and half the cost.”
I seem to recall that a small start-up in Texas is working on a solid-state ‘battery’ as well
Maybe the smoke will clear and a game-changing battery will be invented after all!
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:17 am
big fan of nuclear energy are we. never a good word for solar…I smell and agenda, or perhaps you are an innocent…have your read the Grand Solar Plan? Might take a look…:-) http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Have a look on
http://hybridtechnologies.com/reserve_wave?id=Wave
http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/sema-2009-progressive-automotive-x-prize-contenders/#4
I really liked it , a hybrid between aptera and 4 wheel car.
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Maybe, but are people willing to work 18 hour days and weekends and dwell on problems until they are solved possibly risking a large portion of their own assetts to make somthing work if there is no profit potential in the end. Unfortunately most people are not.
I was commenting on the idea of Greed is bad and we just all just work together for the common good. This all sounds great but it does not work.
The early settlers in Virginia starved to death in great numbers on fertile soil surrounded by wild game and fish in the rivers when they were all working for the collective good. They did not prosper until they had a chance to work for their own profits. I used the term greed because the original poster did. I think of it as opportunity.
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:36 am
I support whatever the market will bear. Nuclear, Wind, Geothermal, Solar, Hydro, small wind and small solar (at home). I support redirecting what will probably reach one $trillion per year within 5 years to import OIL and using that money to build our own energy industry. And I think that can best be done with government direct credits at the retail level because I don’t like the government picking winners, just the government realizing we need to stop exporting money for energy.
We need tax credits for AER (5 cents per mile AER is $7500 for the volt). We need tax credits for all the things listed above and we already have that in place for wind and solar. Problem is Nat Gas is so cheap now that in the short term it is obscuring the long term value of wind. But we have plenty of electricity for now, this will happen over next 20 years. We need to speed up eletrification of cars and 18 wheelers to natural gas or whatever.
Our economy can’t survive the next oil shock. Oil is at $80 a barrel again. Adjusted for inflation Oil has reached this level 5 times before always starting a recession. This time our economy can maybe handle this level for gas because we have increased our fuel economy quite a bit on average. But if oil goes much higher in next 3-4 years before affordable alternate fuel vehicles are available in significant numbers we’re in trouble.
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:39 am
If gas costs $3.00 a gallon, how far would you get at 12 cents a mile?
25 miles which means the car is getting 25 MPG overall.
Now using the same car, what is the cost per mile if gas costs $4.00 a gallon?
16 cents per mile.
If electricity costs 13 cents per kwh, and the EV gets 3.5 miles per kwh, how much does it cost per mile?
3.7 cents per mile.
So what is the difference in energy cost to drive 25 miles?
The foggler would cost $3 to $4 dollars, and the EV would cost a little less than a buck, so the foggler’s (foreign oil gas guzzler) energy cost is 3 or 4 times as much as the EV.
Bottom line, if you plug in different numbers based on different assumptions you get different answers. Thus it appears to me that the New GM is not making much of an effort to under promise and over deliver.
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:40 am
Amen!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:45 am
I like to think that the free market’s strength is that it makes the most of people as they are, while alternative systems require people to become something they are not (completely selfless, altruistic to a heroic standard, motivated solely by the collective good, etc). You are asking a lot of human beings to go against what they are, by nature
You can decry a free market as greed if you want (and in some cases, justifiably), but along with it you get the creative spirit which comes from that truest form of freedom; the freedom to innovate, to find a new way, to ‘do your own thing’ — to pursue happiness.
If centralized government control is instituted which crushes the greed, the spirit of innovation we need in a technological society will be crushed along with it.
In a free market, government’s best role is as a referee; calling ‘foul’ on those who exploit the market in such a way as to infringe upon the market freedoms of others. This doesn’t appear to be the direction government is taking in the US.
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:50 am
I’m fine, thanks. No employment yet; though I wouldn’t call what I’m doing “sitting back,” exactly. I’m about to bust something getting caught up on all these “honey-do’s.”
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Its fine if you are a Prius fan and would rather pay the 6 cents per mile than the lower cost of 2 or 3 cents for the Volt. What do you think a new car buyer would do, buy a Prius or a Volt.The figure given by Posawitz are based on recent results of extensive testing of a fleet of Volts in different environments to get the broadest possible view of how well the Volt will work for their owners.
It seems you had better rub your eyes and take another look at what is going on with EV transportation developments. The Volt drivetrain will be fair less expensive to maintain than that of a Prius which will be an additional savings to owners beyond the $1500 mentioned for cost of fuel.
To think that the price of fuel will reach $3.00 per gallon and not rise far above that is delusional. Do you really think that with the emergence of China and India, just to mention a couple of countries with huge populations demanding petroleum, that the price will remain so low?
This GM-Volt article points out that the media is starting to take a closer look at the Volt and what is happening as a result of the flurry of EV development which GM is far ahead of other manufacturers in development. They own OnStar. No other manufacturer has anything comparable to it.
What makes most viewers here Volt fans is the concept behind the Volt; range extension and the way the drive train and ICE are combined in a less complex way to achieve that extension of range. The Volt is an elegant designed vehicle that will be far cheaper to operate than the Prius whose time has come and gone.
The Volt is turning out to be a game changer for the automotive industry. It comes at a time when the electric grid needed to be upgraded and modernized. It was important for those in the utility industry to consider future technology in their plans to upgrade the grid. The Volt represents that technology which is why it is viewed so prominently as the driver of new industry.
Be it as it may, when there are testimonials about the Volt being the center piece of what drives their business that is hardly a load of bunk.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Most folks should be able to get night rates of about 5 cents a KWH.
Electric cars may lower the cost of electricity by leveling the load 10-15 years from now. So you could end up with indirect savings there as well.
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:55 am
The key idea behind Volt is that you use electricity from the grid, and gasoline only when your supply of stored electricity is exhausted. To use the Volt’s generator to recharge the battery defeats the purpose of displacing gasoline usage. In the unlikely event that electricity becomes more expensive to use than gasoline, you would just stop recharging and use the range extender (on gasoline) for all driving.
The only thing which might make electricity too expensive compared to gasoline is “Cap and Trade’s” effect over time. Keep in mind that off-grid electricity creation (as mentioned by many others here) will also become more available, and may displace this trend in many places.
While new oil supplies have recently been discovered, it will still take years to affect gasoline supplies (new oil fields take years to develop), and international economic recovery over that time will cause great increase in demand (higher gasoline prices).
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November 5th, 2009 at 10:05 am
“As this story compellingly tells, we have arrived at a truly transformational point in history for the country, the economy, society, and the environment, and sitting right at the heart of it all is none other than the Chevy Volt.”
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A very good wind-up statement for a very good report. Thank you, Lyle.
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November 5th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Fight they will but the eyes of the World are open and see that Peak Oil means that it is a dying industry as far as transportation is concerned.
Transportation is the first and most prominent uses of petroleum that we all have the power to change. It is foolish to use this commodity in such a way when there are so many other important uses of petroleum. As a limited resource, we should make it last rather than just burning it up to change one form of energy to another. Especially when we can harvest energy of the sun through solar arrays and wind turbans to generate electricity.
The transition away from petroleum for transportation has begun and IMHO can not be stalled. The emergence of China and India with their huge populations is the main factor in the equation that will lead to electrification of the automotive industry in rapid fashion. Nothing that EXXON or the others can do will stop this from happening.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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November 5th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Jackson said it all when he said “they get it”. This has to be one of the first significant articles that spell out many of the ripple effect technologies that are just around the corner (read after the release of the VOLT). It may well be Gen III before we see “vehicle to grid” or “vehicle to home” implemented, but “a journey of a thousand miles”…
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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November 5th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Yes, that’s the point of the Header: New industries and employment will come out of these new technologies. What wrong with sending that message? With all that is being said here on GM-Volt.com and elsewhere, I don’t think people will get wrong idea. They will see what the Volt is capable of doing. This article is all about how the Volt is transformational: creating new business. And that is just what America needs at this time!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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November 5th, 2009 at 10:33 am
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November 5th, 2009 at 10:36 am
(click to show comment)
My comment to these posts is: I don’t comment on them. If the writer resorts to being discourteous, then they aren’t worthy of a reply. “Click to show comment” is discourteous. This is the only exception to my replying.
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November 5th, 2009 at 10:41 am
I urge you to put on your rational hats, and do some thinking. For the next half to full decade, until EV designs are sufficient to put a downward trend on petroleum consumption for Transport, Petroleum prices can wander and will all over the place. This is possible since the price charged now has next to no relation to the cost of production.
Such happens when real thieves, like politicians take control of things like Petroleum. They can mask their utter greed behind manifestations of “patriotism” and ” the other guys had it coming” and ” its payback for past exploitation”. All of which is utter drivel, and masks their swindling of the inheritance of sequestered carbon.
In the US we use no more fossil Energy for our industry, to heat and cool our homes and industries, and to make our goods, than we did 40 years ago, other than for Transport, then when the population was a 100 million smaller. Did you know that we North Americans, produce less CO2 today including Transport consumption, than in 1970, or hadn’t any one told you that either?
Do you know that CO2, if a problem at all, is largely a problem for others to solve? We advanced people in North America have solved our portion of the problem. We sequester, through our land use policies, every bit of the CO2 that our advanced civilization generates, while making 25% of the World’s goods, and all that our native flora and fauna contribute as well.
As a matter of record, we also sequester some GHGs from the rest of the World as well and are a Carbon sink. So we have done our part and our job to protect the Earth, by any measure. Or hasn’t anyone bothered to tell you that either, in their rush to find a new method to extort Taxes from you?
Transport is the only remaining growth industry for Oil. Or hasn’t any one told you that, either. All other markets for oil have turned downward as adequate substitutes have been found. As soon as the Transport market stops growing due to the advent of electrification, the politicians in the Cartel will ruthlessly turn on each other like the Scorpions they are, and sting themselves to death.
Oil prices WILL collapse, permanently. Please recognize and accept that statement. Perhaps not for a decade but it is inevitable. The Oil PRICE Crisis, and that is all it ever was, will be over after about 40 years, in ascendancy. Prices will return to the cost of production. We will be wiser in our use and liberation of Energy and Mankind can once again create increasing per capita wealth, based on harnessing and making available increasing amounts of per capita Energy. The trend of this continuing at ever declining costs of production will return.
We will wonder why some otherwise sane people were campaigning for Mankind to massively convert to ever more crude, ineffective and costly methods. Furthermore to preach that the brutal, diseased, and short, life of the “Noble Savage” was a lifestyle for billions, and something that they should permanently accept. While reserving an advanced “civilized” lifestyle for themselves, naturally.
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November 5th, 2009 at 10:47 am
This is one of the most interesting VOLT articles ever placed on the site IMHO. The repercussions of the VOLT could be remarkable.
I have some tiny concerns about GM controlling such a huge part of our energy future.
“If GM plays its cards right, it could well incubate, and own, the new industry’s crucial operating and telecommunications standards, the anchors for thousands of smaller technology companies supporting the electric car’s components, information, and entertainment and charging needs.”
So is it a good idea for GM to “own the crucial operating and telecommunication standards”? Even OPEC is made up of many countries. One company controlling so much of this new industry makes me a bit nervous.
I would prefer some sort of more open availability to the technology, which would foster even more creativity and competition, especially since all us taxpayers are now owners of GM.
I am a free market kinda guy and always fear government intervention, but that does not mean I endorse private monopolies controlling crucial technologies.
I hope there is to be a happy balance in all this.
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November 5th, 2009 at 10:55 am
First of all, most people don’t drive Prius’s. And almost no one can buy the basic model at $22,000
Second, the Volt won’t stay at $40,000 forever. By the time the tax credit runs out, hopefully, GM will have brought the price down.
Third, gas prices will eventually be much higher than $3 a gallon.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:03 am
Actually electric utilities love electric cars.
People outside the utility industry mostly don’t realize that night-time electricity demand is far less than daytime peaks. Shutting down a big steam generator vastly increases the risk of pipes breaking due to thermal contraction so the utilities sometimes drop their rates down to *ZERO* at night just to keep the plants running.
*** Go re-figure the payback period using 0-2 Cents/kWHr night-time electricity rates!
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:05 am
#7
That goes double for me. God send that it shall be true!
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:07 am
In the short term this is true, but when oil prices fall, exploration wanes and that causes the pendulum to swint the other way.
The fact that we have the ability to replace the oil we import with other means (including oil used in home heating and oil used in transportation) doesn’t insulate us from the fact that a rapid price swing can start a recession.
Any day Israel might launch an attack on Iran to take out their Nukes and the next day Oil could be at $150 a barrel. We are surely moving way to slow to embrace the technologies that can insulate us from these dangers. The folks that keep looking at the current price of gas are so short sighted that it is depressing that they just don’t get it. All the warning signs are there, the weak dollar, huge trade deficits, high unemployement. This should be Obama’s job #1 to safeguard our future economic growth.
We need a fast track to get 18 wheelers on natural gas, credits to get home owners to stop using fuel oil, and better tax credits to speed the adoption of EVs and BEVs. Don’t think we can keep Israel from taking out Iran’s nukes much longer, and any number of other events will cause gas prices to spike.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:08 am
This is the point that T. Boone Pickens has been stating for al ong time now! At the height of the last spike in petroleum pricing in 2008, we were spending an estimated $700 billion for foreign oil. In July and August of this year alone we spent around $25 billion each month.
This foolishness on our countries part must stop and the re-entry of the electric vehicle will be the means to achieve it. The administration has begun the effort. The utility industry has been moving rapidly towards implementing a Smart Grid. New companies have begun work in this area as indicated by a few mentioned in Lyle’s article here.
I agree with the idea of more incentives beyond the $7500 rebate on taxes but wouldn’t go as far as to give away 1,000,000 rebates. That would amount to $7.5 billion in handouts. True it would generate the savings you mention but the government need only get the new industry started and it will sustain itself thereafter. Some states will likely offer incentives with the intent of attracting those industries important to EV transportation. The incentives are only needed until the price of the EV’s drop below their initial start-up cost.
As T. Boone Pickens says, “I’m for anything Domestic as long as we get off of oil.” (my quote may not be his exact words but you get the idea).
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:14 am
A bit off topic, but it’s another example of the influence the Volt et al are having (and a good idea for states in the US)……
Ontario plans to start issuing these “green” plates July 1 next year, ONLY to plug-in cars (not non-plug hybrids). When these cars do hit the road, drivers who get the green plates will be allowed to travel in high occupancy vehicle lanes until 2015 – even if there’s only one person inside. There’ll also be access to recharging facilities at GO Transit and other provincially operated lots, and parking spots will be set aside at places like Wal-Mart shopping centres and the University of Toronto.
source: http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/720795–ontario-unveils-green-licence-plate-for-eco-friendly-vehicles?bn=1
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:19 am
LOL. Thanks. Gee, I dunno, do you think that the guy was a little prejudiced?
It reminds me of a cartoon caption from the famous “Down with Skool” by Geoffrey Willans and Ronald Searle. and this is a quote, so don’t go off on me, LOL:
“The French are filthy frogs and jabber your head off.”
“The Americans are swankpots.”
“The Russians are roters (sic, I think).”
“The British are brave, super and noble. Cheers, cheers, cheers!”
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Hi LRGVProVolt;
As I mention in post #26, these $7500 each have a much higher payback, a higher multiplier effect then any of the other hundreds of billions Obama is spending. 7.5 billion to hurry the first million electric cars is a drop in the bucket. He wants to spend a trillion to make health care worse (more government intervention).
Obama needs to change his priorities, and our economy should be job#1 and in fact the only job, or we won’t be able to afford health care at all.
BTW I have a health care plan that works employers, insurance companies and no government controls (just admin) that would give health care to EVERYONE for less cost and better quality.
I sent it to Hillary back in 1993 but she must not have read my mail.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:23 am
#15
Thanks for reminding us. A Clinton/Gore initiative, God forbid!
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:24 am
BTW, when I started up my computer at 8:00 AM PST, there were already 68 comments up. It’s tough playing catchup, LOL.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:25 am
I got through half of this article and my A.D.D. kicked in. All I can say is when EV’s hit the road the power companies better be ready. I want to charge when I want, not when any entity or technology says I can. The writing is on the wall, EV’s are destined and if the Power companies can’t handle it, it’s THEIR fault!
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:29 am
This article is a little over dramatic. Changing the type of fuel we use for some of our cars isn’t a huge transformational shift. We are still all using cars. Shifting to a completely new form of transportation would be a huge transformation. But I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:30 am
#28
Better Place = LOL
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:32 am
GM is investing a lot of money in the Volt technology. They have to get some type of return for that if it works out. If we didn’t have intellectual property rights there would no point for anyone to invest in any R&D.
Bear in mind that GM will almost definately liscence the technology to other manufacturers. And if they refuse to do so, the goverment will probably make them. So I don’t think it will be that much of an obstacle. Yes. It will be more expensive for other manufacturers as a result. So there might be fewer versions. And alternatives might be less efficient. Which, by the way, is probably why the Prius is still the most fuel efficient car on the market. Patent law is a balancing act. But it has to exist.
Yes. GM is now owned by the US taxpayers, but we don’t plan to keep them. Or put them on life support forever. We want GM to be a privately owned healthy self-sufficient business that provides tax revenue. That means we need them to make a profit. And this technology will hopefully help make that happen.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:36 am
The Saudis have much more to worry about than our no longer using their oil. Peak Oil is happening around the world as well give up less and less of what is in the ground.The smart Arab countries such as Iran are investing in alternate technology. (The problem with Iran is another topic for another day). Some experts predict worldwide supply of this natural resource will deplete by 2040. All the activity to shift away from petroleum that you see today is the result of a broad consortium of politicians, industrial leaders, business groups, and others who see this problem as needing immediate attention. In order to prevent worldwide disarray, the problem must be addressed within the next ten years, preferably right now.
It worries me too, but we all have to focus on the greater problem facing us and the world when we no longer have oil as a fuel or as material source for other products we depend upon.
Happier trails to you ’til we meet again.
Off to get some work done.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Wow. That was a really long but good article by Inc. magazine. I have no doubt that the Chevy Volt is going to go down in history as THE catalyst for getting a whole new industry ecosystem going … electric drive powertrains and all the systems and services that support it. From the battery components to the power electronics to the smart grid to all the communications technology and the services that come with it. It’s going to be a HUGE interconnected ecosystem. Just as big as the Internet itself.
I think the Volt will be thought of as being like the first Apple personal computers back in the early 80s. The Volt design team will be kind of famous and cable TV documentaries will be made about them in the future.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:50 am
The easiest, simplest and cheapest solution is a gasoline tax…
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:53 am
#75
Yeah but that’s chump change in view of the $$ we spend on foreign oil, as you yourself pointed out above. Never mind the cost of “The Endless War”, which costs more than that EVERY MONTH.
$7.5 billion to support PHEVs? Do it, IMHO. Right now.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:56 am
VERY COOL!! Take heed California, LOL.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Sh|t, CA can’t afford to do anything right now. Broke azz state.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:59 am
#84
Amen. And diesel, of course.
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I’m on the fence with this idea. Sure the tax will increase the desirability but what it also does is increase the cost of life necessities. This goes with what I have always said. If one can’t afford an EV now how can they afford one when you tax the begeebers out of gas?
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
#87
Hey, we’re gonna pass an $11 BILLION water bond issue next year, right? What’s the problem? Happy days are here again!
Did you hear that the legislative analyst said that, if the $11 BILLION gets added to the present debt load, an unsustainable 10% of the state’s revenues will be going to bond debt service?
I vonder vhat effer happent to kuttink up ze kredit kards?
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
lol….
They also increased State income tax by 10%.
WTF?
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
They can give plug-ins the same HOV stickers that they currently give the first generations of the Prius. Those were supposed to expire years ago. It doesn’t cost them anything to replace them with Plug-in stickers instead.
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Yes 2 sides to this coin. The gasoline tax does need to be increased, but it needs to be done slowly, 5 cents per year starting NOW.
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
It is sad that 7.5 billion seems like such a small amount of money compared to the amount our government is currently wasting. It is really a HUGE amount of money.
But as I posted in #26 today, the payback is there.
The next million probably should get $5,000 per car (per 150k AER), and the third million cars get $2,500.
Unfortunately these amounts may have to be increased if inflation rears it’s ugly head.
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
It will raise demand, so that manfucturers can get the economies of scale necessary to reduce the price. You might have to wait a few more years to get one. But the price will come down faster this way than if the Volt remains a niche vehicle.
It will also get people who don’t need them out of the SUVs.
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Here’s the states process to do any friggin thing…
They need to go OFB (out for bid). This means someone at the state has to prepare some package of crap to advertise this. Then some other person has to receive all the bids so a panel can evaluate them. Then the panel decides who get’s it. Then someone has to draft a letter to send the losing bidders to let them know they didn’t get it. After that someone has to approve that letter. Then that letter is sent to someone to print it, fold it, pack it, sela the envelope and send it.
Once the winning bidder is notified, some group of peeps have to draft a contract up for them. Then someone has to evaluate it for legal purpose to make sure backout clauses are present and then it is approved.
That’s just the cliffs note version and that’s an “IF” one of the losing or all of the losing bidders do a “Protest”. If that happens, and they win the protest, then the bid is tossed out and start over.
Phukin politics of the State Govt. Sounds easy to say but to do for any Govt agency?……..it’s a convoluted mess of crap.
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November 5th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
I probably should stay out of this since I don’t live in California. And I don’t know the details of the bill–but California really does need to do something about its water supply. And the longer we wait, the more expensive it will be. Fresh water is not an unlimited resource, and we’re running out.
Yes. I know about california’s budget situation. And normally, I’m all for cutting spending wherever possible. But this? Is a necessity. These are the types of projects that the US, in general, has put off for too long IMHO.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,967824,00.html
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/wiredscience/story/71-peak_water.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/04/water-shortage-california-drought
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Our use zero oil 1974 national goal evolves. In 2009 its (in random order) do it green, save GM, make jobs, ensure thriving small business, preserve unions and so forth. These forces pushing GM and VOLT transcend competition. Whereby the infrastructure need Avishai identifies. True GM could not have survived without TARP. However, now that GM is back on track, focus can be made to replenish inventories and deliver VOLT. What Avishai says this not only means making jobs, small business orders, and doing it green; but carrying an entire international EV industry. I would however take issue with singling out just one battery researcher-GM really doesn’t give a hoot where the next advance battery IP comes from, just so long as its market doable.
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Have you been to Isreal? I have, spent a year there.. You can drive across the country and back THE LONG WAY in a day…what works in a 2 bedroom house will likely not in a 127 story high rise condo..
its an apples and hand grenades comparison to say it will work everywhere.
Being only about 600 miles from one end to the other (again the long way) it will tank about 12-20 battery changing stations for the whole country.
The USA being 3000 miles E to W will need about 60 and at about 800 N – S 16 per axis for a total grid arrangement of almost 1000 and that is basic coverage every 75 miles or so assuming highway formation ina regular grid pattern.
personnly don’t think so
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Wow. That’s insane. Something really needs to be done about simplifying things in this country. I know “deregulation” is now a dirty word. But that’s rediculous.
That said, bid for what? To make the stickers? Can’t they just use whomever is currently making the stickers for the early hybrids?
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Sorry, yes they need to go OFB for stickers and vendors need to put their lowest bids in.
Technically they can not just use the same person because the contract(s) has an end date and because the stickers had an X number made for the year, technically the contract is fulfilled and paid. So if you want more, you have to go through the same insane process.
This process was instituted because some goons way back when had their friends or in-laws or whoever they knew getting contracts at high rates when local contractors could’ve done it for less and the employers would’ve been from within CA.
What a mess.
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Yep, no problem. You can charge at 20 cents during the day and/or 5 cents at night. It’s your choice
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Everybody is sooo concerned about elected officials and government workers taking advantage that this is the system that grows from that mindset. Punish the many to avoid unjust enrichment of the few. The only way to streamline is the accept that people do business with other people or companies they are comfortable with and punish the abusers harder.
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Exactly. Isreal is a small self contained area which most of the population doesn’t ever leave. At least not by driving. No one takes weekend trips to Lebanon. Or is sent by their employer to a project in Egypt. Or has to visit their cousin in Jordan. The borders are very restricted. For both Jews and Palistineans.
There is some cross border trade, but it’s minor. And it’s restricted. And most of the time it’s actually at the border.
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Hey GM,
I plan on being an early adopter. I also keep my cars for years…my current car is 15 years old. Please don’t screw me in 10 years when I need to change the battery. Please Pass those cost savings down to the OEM service part – maybe consider (limited?) capabilitilty between Gen3 batteries in Gen1 cars.
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Well, you’re right and you’re wrong.
You are right, we don’t know *for sure* what kind of battery technology will be available for Gen III. Ann is just stating that, as they do research, they discover what has potential and what has not. As time goes by, they will find a way to increase power density and it is likely that she knows a whole lot more about that research than you and me. So in this regard, you are wrong. There will be breakthroughs before Gen III and most likely she has an idea of what to expect. I don’t and you don’t.
As for your second part, the Better Place project would not work on such a vast area as the US of A. So you can’t just copy that thing. And besides, I don’t have much hope for that formula to succeed.
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
There is no law of nature or politics that demands a gas tax apply to commercial usage as well. Let delivery and trucking companies recover the gas tax with their comporate taxes and it won’t add to the price of commodities.
When there are alternatives for those sectors (some are emerging now), the tax can be stepped in for them.
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November 5th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
It makes us wonder, what if Gore had been elected instead of Bush in 2000 ? Oh, wait… never mind.
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November 5th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Thus the focus on the unproveable relationship between CO2 emissions and global warming. Global warming is just another crisis on top of the price-of-oil crisis. There’s plenty of oil (100s of years anyway). It’s just no longer cheap.
We ran out of sperm whales and we still got light and lubricants. Running out of oil is another minor inconvenience and the sooner the better imho. (btw, the Germans were using pure synthetic oil and fuel because they couldn’t get ‘real’ oil during WWII. It’s very possible to do everything without oil as we know it.)
We just needed a good crisis to leverage the global psyche into more breathable emissions (like none) and a more reliable (reliably priced) source of energy. Oh, and it should be renewable and sustainable otherwise we are in the same oil boat as now.
Cheap energy built this country and cheap energy is needed to build out the rest of the world. Long term, fossil fuel ain’t it. Short term, we can’t spend the next generation’s resources by trying to instantaneously transform off of oil. There needs to be a balanced but focused effort in the oil-less direction.
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November 5th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
If 8 KWHr(a Volt recharge)represents 10 % of an average house holds energy use per day then the average household uses 80 KWHrs per day or 2400 KWHr’s per month. My average power usuage over the last 55 months is 736.71 KWHrs/month. If my bill were average & I charged my Volt 6 days/week @ 8 KWHr/day that would be 48KWHrs/week or 208 KWHrs/month. My Volt charge would be 28.2 % of my electric bill not 10 %. The only explanation I can find to justify the unnamed executives comment is that only 33% of all electric usuage on the USA Grid is by households, the rest by businesses and these assumptions are probably based on charging only once /day or 8 KWHr max.
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November 5th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
I am in favor of a (controlled) foreign oil tax. Since we are already giving credits for alcohol and other fuels, we are de-facto taxing foreign oil.
Since fuel is the largest use of foreign oil, yep, tax fuel. But only tax the foreign oil component. (Don’t even ask me how to do this since it is all blended together at the refinery.) In other words, E85 would be taxed way less than E10.
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November 5th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Just out of curiousity–how much does the whole process wind up costing the taxpayers? Is it more expensive than just putting up with the corruption?
I’m starting to think we should tie people’s salaries to how much money they don’t spend…
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November 5th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
#95
Right. That’s all I’m saying. In so many different ways.
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November 5th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Loboc Says:
November 5th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
“We just needed a good crisis to leverage the global psyche into more breathable emissions (like none) and a more reliable (reliably priced) source of energy. Oh, and it should be renewable and sustainable otherwise we are in the same oil boat as now.”
Not sure which crisis you refer to but it has not been the global warming crisis. Every insider knows there is no such thing. Energy crisis? Closer to fact. The US slowly became addicted to foreign oil as its primary energy source. That was a strategic mistake that has cost us vast amounts of money and more importantly, the lives of young men and women who have had to secure that energy source.
This is a laudable article about innovation and enterprise. We see the Volt at a hallmark of all these things. But more important is for Americans to recognize that transitioning to non-fossil fuels, especially out of foreign oil – will be a reason for less young men and women to be put in harms way. And who needs more global conflict of any kind?
Lyle is right in that electrification of transport led by the introduction of Volt will revolutionize the way we produce and use energy. It is a major step forward and it has been hard fought. I congratulate all the many people onstage and in the wings who have helped make this happen. It is a dream come true. And if fully realized will help bring the human race closer to its full and deserved potential.
Thanks for the inspiration.
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November 5th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
#98
I have lived in CA for 63 years, and i have followed this issue very carefully since I was in college. I could go on about this for 10,000 words, but I will spare you.
First, I highly recommend what i believe to be the seminal book on this issue, “Cadillac Desert”, by Marc Resiner.
Second, two words: “USE LESS” You are quite right that it is a finite resource. I donesn’t matter how much infrasturcture you build, if you allow everyone to use as much as they want, there isn’t enough.
Just one example. In the 1960’s the State Water Project was one of the biggest water “infrastructure” projects in history. Urban legend says that it allowed the continued growth of SoCal, but actually 90% of the water goes to agriculture. This allowed putting tens of thousands of acres of new land in the west San Joaquin Valley into production. Alas, this land was marginal at best, and soon began to salt up and become contaminated with heavy metals and other contaminants which leached up out of the soil. Much of it is now ruined and unproductive. The agribusinesses are now crying out for millions of dollars in state and federal money to bail them out of this self-inflicted disaster. If you read Mr. Reisner’s book, this is a scenario which has played out all over the world for many years.
Marc Reisner also chronicles the building of dams on less and less viable sites, as the best ones are already used. This trend is highly likely to continue under this legislation.
Leaving aside my original point that the state is indeed, as Captain Jack points out, broke, this is a world class example of “be careful what you ask for, you might get it.” Plus, all of the bureaucratic processes he outlines for carpool lane stickers would apply here times about 1 billion, LOL.
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November 5th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
#101
Or how about if they just tell the CHP officers in the morning roll call not to give tickets to Volts in the carpool lane because they’re exempt? They’re pretty sharp guys, they can handle that. Give them each a photo of a Volt, if anybody thinks they need to.
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November 5th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
#116
Oh. I just looked into the bill, and you’re right. I assumed it was about using less (or possibly a desalinization plant). Fixing leaky pipes. Preventing runoff from contaminating the water supply. Water meters, which I understand California needs desperately. Tax credits for installing drip irrigation in agriculture, etc. Etc. Apparently not.
That will teach me to opine about bills I know nothing about. Just because there’s a problem doesn’t mean the bill actually addresses said problem.
The groundwater measurement sounds necessary and helpful? And repairing the levees? And restoring some of the protective delta ecosystems?
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November 5th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
It has to be available for every plug-in. Yes. As a practical matter, the Volt will be the only one available. But aside from complaints about protectionism and favoring goverment owned entities, I think allowing one car from one manufacturer to be exempt would violate constitutional provisions about how specific a law is allowed to be.
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November 5th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Off-topic, but since we’re brainstorming out loud–Another big theme just getting warmed up: engineered human body/mind improvement, such as thru robotics, drugs, interfaces, etc. BIG demographic getting old but doesn’t want to be old.
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November 5th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
#118
Actually, there’s a lot of good stuff in the bill concerning conservation, wastewater recycling, groundwater cleanup, and the other things you mention. And yes, it does move toward protecting the Delta, which is critically important.
The Natural Resources Defense Council, of which I am a proud member, actually supports the bill, and was very involved in the negotiations leading up to its passage. On the other hand, the Sierra Club opposes largely, I think, on the basis of the proposed dams. So it’s tough to know where to come down. It’s definitly not all bad. The political process just leads to the inclusion of some stuff I hate, as the price of getting the good.
My wife is a nurse, and I strongly subscribe to the medical maxim: “First do no harm.” The history of water development, so ably chronicled by Mr. Reisner, is just a cautionary tale. We have to proceed with the greatest of care, so that we as a society don’t shoot ourselves in the foot (feet?).
Thanks for your patience with my sort of venting on this issue.
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November 5th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
#119
Quite right. No problem. As more become available, just add them to the list. I think that the only 2 hybrids which ever qualified for the CA program were the Prius and the Civic hybrid. Maybe the Altima, but I’ve never seen one with a sticker that I can remember.
I believe that the program has sunsetted now, or is about to. There is some date, after which the stickers don’t work any more, and they are no longer allowed in the lane with one occupant. I don’t know if it’s happend yet, but it’s coming pretty soon.
Of course it was only for the first 85K or so hybrids in the state, so they had to have some way to identify the early ones. I’m sure that you can’t get a sticker for a “conventional” hybrid any more. So if they’re going to say only the first “X” thousand PHEVs can go in the lanes, then my simple minded idea won’t work.
Anyway, I think that the Captain is just venting his frustration with state government in general. They’ll figure out a way to get the stickers, if GM, et al, can talk them into doing it.
In LA, many of the carpool lanes have become as congested as the mixed flow at the peak anyway, so it’s sort of academic. And, as a result, many traffic engineers and the Feds cast a pretty jaundiced eye on this whole idea. it is actually fairly controversial. People say that “carpool” or “HOV” lanes were built to encourage carpools and HOVs, so why use them as incentives for favored car technologies when they are rapidly filling up already.
It sure did work to popularize the Prius in LA though.
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November 5th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
RE: This last year of waiting will be a long one.
Tag,
Your “Steady-State-Optimism” is an essential element here for the next year. Without it, it is somewhat “Onward through the fog” spirit-wise if you know what I mean.
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November 5th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
I find this stuff fascinating. I know it’s not the main topic, but I think it’s OK to stray once in a while.
My feeling with these bills is that there are always going to be things you don’t like. For whatever it’s worth, my favorite charity, the Nature Conservancy, supports it.
By the way, the situation in New York is completely different. Our water delivery system is old, and we didn’t maintain it properly. As a result, some estimate as much of a third of the water we draw from upstate is lost to leaks. Not only is this an incredible waste of water, but it’s causing flooding upstate. So infrastructure spending is helping a great deal.
They’ve already extended the life of those stickers once that I know of. They currently expire on January 2011–when the Volt will already theoretically be on the road. And I believe the Prius owners are lobbying for another extension.
http://priuschat.com/news/california-prius-drivers-may-lose-hov-access
I understand the need to cut down on traffic in the HOV lanes, but it bothers me that a US state handed Toyota what amounts to a subsidy for the Prius. (It adds $4000 to the value of a used car.) And they’re not going to do the same for the Volt.
It’s not like they’re not planning on having stickers. They’re discussing limiting it to BEVs and alternative fuel vehicles. I think the Volt is much more eco-friendly than the “natural-gas-powered Honda GX.”
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November 5th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
#128
As to things you don’t like, too true. It’s the nature of our political system. What’s the old saying, “It’s the worst system in the world, excoept for all of the others.”, or some such. As to the Nature Conservancy, we belong to that too. It is great. My younger son worked with them on his Masters professional project. They were very helpful. We joined as a result, and have been thrilled with the work that they are doing. The Environmental Defense Fund supports it as well. So I guess we are just going to have to hold our noses about the parts we don’t like and support it. Although where the money will come from I cannot think.
As to your comments on HOV lane stickers, I can only agree.
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November 5th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
#120
You got that right, hahaha!!!
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Guy:
Is it your contention, then, that the Chevy Volt is the brain-child of a government-sponsored organization, spurred by a failed government-sponsored experiment, ultimately to be made by a government-sponsored corporation?
If so, why does Bob Lutz claim that Tesla spurred GM to make the Volt after he himself proposed it in 2003?
http://gm-volt.com/2007/12/24/bob-lutz-says-tesla-motors-spurred-gm-to-build-the-volt/
Respectfully,
Dr. Ibringdoh
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
Thank you for an interesting and well researched answer. Question:
How do government grants for a power grid “guarantee” the success of entire industries? Is this at all like the government grants and stimulus dollars provided to the sub-prime mortgage markets via FNMA and FHLMC?
Respectfully,
Dr. Ibringdoh
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Thank you for the detailed and well thought-out answer Gsned57.
Question: Are you concerned that the government bailout of GM may in the long term inflate the cost of the Volt to consumers?
Respectfully,
Dr. Ibringdoh
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Thank you, Starcast. I absolutely concur.
Respectfully,
Dr. Ibringdoh
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
It will indeed be a long year ahead and I’m all set to shake my pompoms to try to keep things upbeat. I’m sure there will be more bumps in this long road we’re traveling, but the path ahead is *relatively* short. Every step is still a leap of faith, but thank God faith is not in short supply for many of us.
Then again there will likely be more “revealed” in this last year and beyond that refreshes that faith.
The Volt is going to change the whole game and we’ve been witnesses. Exciting times!!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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November 5th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
With the switch to electric what happens with the tax revenue generated from buying gasoline. Will my electric bill go up?
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
But sometimes you get the last word, LMAO!
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Yup, gotta try to keep the faith. Good man!
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
I can confirm what Larry is talking about, Electric Utilities love Electric Cars. No doubt about it. Most of them can’t wait for the day when all cars are electric. I’ve talked to many in the industry.
Peter M
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November 5th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Unfortunately, in the past our government stood by and didn’t aid our industry while foreign governments like Japan subsidized and organized its industry to dump products in the U.S. to destroy their U.S. competitors. Dumping is a term used by U.S. Customs that means sales to he U.S. at less than fair market value (the market price in its country at home). The fastener industry is a good example; Japan dumped its product in the U.S. and ultimately controlled the market. They then set the price of fasteners much higher than before. I don’t remember what industry it was but China subsidized an industry just recently with $30 billion. It’s about time, we started using the same practices that other countries use to build up ther businesses. Without the so called bail- out of GM, you would be buying that EV from a foreign company and see your hard earned dollars go out of the country.
Sales to date indicate that GM is recovering market share as evidenced by its decision to keep Opel and not sell it to Magna. (Germany isn’t happy about it but I bet that the British are: Magna indicated it would not use the Vauxhall plant to build the Ampera.)
GM will not have a problem with retaining Voltec technology and will be able to benifit from Ampera sales in Europe. Many here on this blog like the styling of the Ampera better than the Volt.
IMHO, GM will be able to pay back the loans by the government come fall next year. Also, many here will ask you what better technology to support than the Voltec technology. For sure if our government stands by and doesn’t give incentives to private industry, a foreign company will definitely come up with the future technology. The infusion of government grants and loans is the only way to get our home industry back on its feet. And what better industries than green ones to infuse that investment.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
If your talking about EEStor, stand-by; we should all know about them before the end of the year. Bob Kruse was probably referring to the Lithium Air Battery. Wikipedia at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_air_battery
states: “When fully developed these batteries could exhibit practical specific energies of 1000-3000 Wh/kg.”.
It might as well be some other advancement in current battery production also. We will find out in two or three years.
As for EEStor, there has been comments on the blogs about NASA being interested in EEStor technology and even having purchased EESU’s. many don’t believe the statement.!?!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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November 5th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
I saw something similar to this article that actually mentioned government involvement in a New Mexico project to build the solar array plant. It also talked about modernizing the national grid. I wish I had bookmarked the link.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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November 5th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Gilbert,
at the height of the petroleum price in 2008, it was projected that we would be spending $700 billion a year on foreign petroleum. In July and August of this year, we spent around $25 billion in each month on oil. By shifting to home sources of fuel, those billions of dollars will be available to spend here in our own country. Most states use the gasoline tax to repair roads. With the money for foreign oil now being spent on domestics, tax collection will increase and assistance to the states for road maintenance and other issues by the federal government will be possible. The national deficit will decrease and this nation will be better off than in all of the last dozen or so administrations who promised but never did end our addiction to foreign oil.
I don’t know how they will get the revenue to maintain roads when the electric vehicles ultimately replace the ICE but anything will be better than foolishly spending all that money on foreign oil. Perhaps, we will see more toil roads.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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November 5th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
It will begin happening in the next five years as you see the price of petroleum go sky high and people begin to see the advantages of the EV over ICE vehicles. The world is such a mess with all the wars and conflicts going on around the world. Competition for petroleum has already begun: China is investing heavily to lock up sufficient supplies for its population and economy. The next major petroleum price spike will remind you of how the price of everything went up making life difficult for many. When it happens, all will be thankful that this country has an automotive manufacturer with the answer to the dilemna. Thank you GM!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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November 6th, 2009 at 1:25 am
Maybe a road maintenance tax fee will be attached to our monthly electric bills someday. EV’s will have a special plug that, when plugged in for recharging, communicates with the electric utility to allow them to separate the vehicle recharging power draw from a customer’s domestic power draw. The split bill would allow the utility to tax the customer’s power usage associated with recharging vehicles.
With regard to solar: I’d propose we cover our interstate highways with solar panels elevated above them in long strings. Aside from providing shade for the traffic below, the landscape would not be spoiled and power transmission lines would be significantly shorter. Panel maintenance would be given to a special maintenance division attached to the highway maintenance department. Simple and easy and relatively cheap.
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November 6th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
GREAT IDEA!! +1
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November 6th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Concern over the cost of transportation today does matter in consumer-psych. With the Volt it will greatly change the driving behavior.
What I like with the volt is that finally something interesting is happening in the car business. Hopefully it will blow things up and completely change the landscape
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November 7th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Yeah man. Bring it on!
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