AND 
MINI E Pothole Fail, GM Working Hard on Chevy Volt Quality
As some readers may know, I am one of 100 people in New York who are leasing the MINI E electric car for one year. I recently passed 5000 miles of driving the car, and for the most part am very happy with it, especially in that all those miles have been covered without using one drop of gasoline.
As the car is technically a mule or prototype, it is not production-ready and has had some issues. A month or two ago it began popping loudly into neutral whenever the accelerator was floored. The power electronics control unit was replaced and after that it almost never happened (it happened one more time). So I’m gentle with the accelerator.
The other day I was driving to work and went over an unexpected construction zone pothole. The car was jostled and suddenly it went into neutral. After that it could no longer be put into drive. Despite turning it on and off and moving the shifter in and out of drive neutral and park several times, that was it, dead. A tow truck was called and off it went to the dealership for a MINI “flying doctor” to come and repair it. After a few days I found out it was the power electronics control unit again which was again replaced.
This made me immediately realize the importance of extensive testing of new electric cars over rough road conditions, potholes and the like. With new technology electric cars there may be cables that can simply come out stopping the car dead in its tracks. Fickle electrical connections andsensitive electronics may be more vulnerable to these effects than mechanical combustion powertrains which have been road-tested for a hundred years.
I reached out to Volt vehicle line director Tony Posawatz to see how carefully GM was evaluating pothole effects on the Volt prototypes.
He responded graciously:
We do more tests to our cars and especially the Chevy VOLT than anyone could imagine including some pretty severe potholes on our Milford Provings Grounds and other very difficult road surfaces. As you know, the car quite easily navigated up and down Pikes Peak, through the hills of West Virginia as well as Death Valley during the hottest part of the summer (it was 118 degrees when I called once to check on the team).
So although there may be a lot of new electric car startups on the horizon, the Volt may well have as another advantage GM’s long heritage of specialized quality control testing facilities and expertise. As has been said before, they must get this one perfect.
123 Responses to “MINI E Pothole Fail, GM Working Hard on Chevy Volt Quality”
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October 28th, 2009 at 6:20 am
Good morning, Lyle.
Excellent report.
I have said over and over again, test, test test and test some more. The Volt must be the most reliable and most well made vehicle GM has ever sold.
With the government loans, the anti-American car crowd, the press, etc, any mistakes or perception of mistakes, will be magnified on this car. We’ll hear how Americans can’t build good cars and how we should all kneel down to Toyota and buy a Prius. That’s garbage of course.
GM, please make this the best car you have ever built. What joy we will all have sticking our noses up at the nay sayers.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:22 am
Interesting topic, Lyle ….although I’m sure it was no fun being stranded! Some may find it interesting that the electrical systems & sophisticated electronics in the thousands of orbiting (and deep space) spacecraft are plagued more by bad connections than almost anything else. As a result, any mission-critical wiring or connections are always made redundant.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:27 am
This is the main reason I have waited to buy my electric car from a major manufacturer. They have the knowledge, experience, and equipment to properly design and test a new vehicle before putting it on the road. And then they have the established dealer network to be able to service those vehicles.
I am really looking forward to my test drive, when they become available!
NPNS
October 28th, 2009 at 6:32 am
Too bad about getting stranded. If only your Mini had come with an integral Segway scooter on-board as a backup! LOL. (come on folks, I can’t be the only one who remembers that turkey…)
October 28th, 2009 at 6:36 am
Thanks for the Mini E report.
Many many, MANY readers here have posted their Monday morning quarterback engineering remarks about how electric cars are automatically more reliable than gas/diesel vehicles. This is obviously not true. Reliability of any mechanical, electric, or electronic device comes only from testing, re-engineering, and testing again.
I wouldn’t hesitate to drive the worst ranked quality car from a major car manufacturer on a cross country trip anytime. Even the so called worst car is so reliable the odds of a failure are absolutely minuscule. I can’t say the same about any of the start-up companies so many have praised here on these pages, without ever driving or owning their product for a long period of time.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:36 am
These cars have to be as well tested and resilient as a pink polyester tie…
October 28th, 2009 at 6:56 am
Test the living daylights out of these Volts, GM. It was a good move to take the Volts to PA the other week since we can provide a wide and varied assortment of potholes to test them on, (unfortunately I’m not kidding).
October 28th, 2009 at 7:07 am
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October 28th, 2009 at 7:19 am
GM is ‘getting it’ on the quality front. The Buick quality awards are in the forefront.
I have owned several GM cars (only one was new) over the years. Mostly they have been good cars. I was stranded with my new Olds once when it was about 6 months old. (the main electrical fusible link blew rendering all electrical dead.) However, that is ancient history (1976). More recent GM cars have been very reliable although the newest one I have had is 1991.
My GM cars:
1972 Vega – company delivery vehicle. What can I say. It was junk.
1976 Olds Starfire – fun car. 4spd V6.
1970 ‘Vette 454 (LS5) Stingray roadster w/ removable hard top – wow! Play toy.
1970 Olds Toronado – tank. Nothing stopped it including 30″ snow. My intention was to build a kit car out of the drive train, but, never got there. 455 V-8 in a 2000lb car would have been awesome.
1972 Cadillac Eldorado convertible. Very nice. 500cid. Huge car. The hood was bigger than some cars now.
1982 Chevette – ok car for what it was. good commuter.
1991 Chevy Lumina ‘Euro’ – reliable family car
1991 Pontiac Grand Am – bullet proof. 280k miles when finally died.
October 28th, 2009 at 7:22 am
I read it quite differently. Mini have made a few cheap (comparitivley) prototypes, and got them out there to gather real data to support the conclusion that “it won’t work”. GM are making a car, and doing all the normal things they do. so many things a startup won’t even consider or test, like making sure there’s no water ingress from the windows, that the “hood” release cable can’t get snagged or snapped, that when weighed down by bags of concrete there’s still enough ground clearance, that the indicator switch will last for thousands of uses, that the pollen filter has enough drainage, that the mirror motors can withstand extreme heat and cold, that the lever for adjusting the seat is strong enough to move 300lbs of person – the list just goes on.
GM are making a car. Mini are making a toy.
October 28th, 2009 at 7:26 am
They drove a Volt Caravan through the highways of Pennsylvania! I’m 100% confident they’ve been pothole tested
October 28th, 2009 at 7:28 am
The Mini is simply a production car that has been fitted with an electric motor and a 100 mile capacity battery. Unlike the Volt (or Aptera) which are being built up from the frame and lug nuts.
NGMCO is doing the right thing by keeping this technology advantage for as long as possible. Once the complete Voltec system is released it is sure to be reverse engineered. This is the equivalent of handing the competition a billion dollars of R&D money.
The Volt will arrive for public use when the time is right. We will be seeing unpartial test drive feedback before long. My guess is by Christmas.
One day we’ll see a Voltec truck. If driving the Volt feels like flying. Then driving a Voltec truck will feel like an out-of-body experience.
=D~
October 28th, 2009 at 7:36 am
Yes Brian..and the electric mini website has all the transparency that GM has…your comments are oxy moronic as you state they lost the benefi of the doubt, but should put out protoypes for testing before they are 100% CONFIDENT…think about that for a minute..
What you want is someone at GM to say something like “Hey we have a bad reputation, but lets release a test fleet of volts that were not finished with, and if they breakdown, oh well…”
GM is doing it right..they are thinking..you are not.
October 28th, 2009 at 7:36 am
I am looking forward to the “New GM” being better than the “Old GM”. It may be hard to do if compared to the old days in the forties whowever, the Volt is the chance for the “New GM” to shine.
Don’t blow it for the VOLTEC is a wonderful concept and hopefully we can say in the future that our United States of America company, General Motors is leading the pack on Electric Vehicles (EV).
I know that the Volt people are working hard. The executive base needs to provide full and energetic support.
October 28th, 2009 at 7:40 am
I certainly hope they come out with this soon than later.
I really would like a 4×4 Voltec pickup truck.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:08 am
HELLO…….. every single car with EFI (Electronic Fuel Injection ) has a …………… guess what, ECU (Electronic Control Unit). Literally Millions of these things fill the highways daily without rattling themselves loose into failure mode! LOL
The Inverter in the Mini (in fact the entire EV system) is supplied by AC Propulsion. It was a low volume production run and ACP are NOT a fully fledged production company anyways. More like a bunch of back yarders who now have an assembly factory in China.
The engineers at Tesla started out using ACP inverters but they were soon confronted with QC issues and they decided to design their own digital version.
No dispresect to ACP but, they have no experience as manufacturers. Perhaps they should sub contract. I’m 100% sure GM have abit more experience in this area!
October 28th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Tesla goes over 300 miles on a single charge:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/10/tesla-313-miles/
Sorry for the hi-jack, but I thought some folks would be interested
October 28th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Lyle, I’ve personally driven over some of those road test surfaces at the GM Tech Center when I was interning there. Some of those stretches will later cause the driver to pass blood in their urine, so I’ve no doubt the tests are sufficiently brutal.
As for electronics, the 1980’s ushered in extensive electronic controls into vehicles, so that the vehicles passed CAFE / emission standards. Distributors gave way to capacitor bank switched ignition systems, carburators gave way to electronically controlled fuel injectors and even transmissions dumped the valve bodies for solenoids to quickly change gears. Automakers have thirty years of recent history of how to package electronics for vehicles.
What is new is the current / power requirements. No automaker has experience pushing this many Amps continuously (perhaps in hybrids, but not sure how close that comes). New, high power components will have to be qualified for auto applications. Once qualified, packaging them into the vehicle for high reliability is old hat.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:42 am
As my first car was a 1947 Plymouth (black) I have no problem breaking down anywhere in any weather – been there done that. I would love to get behind the wheel of the Volt ASAP. My anxiety is building as I wait (2013 is my guess) for the availability of the Volt in my driveway.
Unfortunately the competition may have a viable alternative before that.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:42 am
Ok, this feat is mostly meaningless. They ran out of charge somewhere in the Australian desert after 313 miles. Then what? A quick charge for the trip back? We don’t have the rest of the story.
What significance does this have for us regular folks? Not much.
I’ll take a Volt for my needs. Even if it costs 40 grand it will be a bargain compared to the Telsa with built in range anxiety.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:45 am
In defense of Mini, I have to say that putting “mules” in the hands of end users was really taking a chance. Mules are not production vehicles, and are not meant for long term use. Since these are really Alpha Test vehicles, breakdowns are to be expected. That is the purpose of the test vehicles, to see what needs to be improved, get it fixed, and then make the production vehicles that can stand up to the daily driving of millions of different people and their particular diving requirements and styles.
What I can’t understand is how Mini felt it was OK to CHARGE people over $800 per month for the privilege of being an Alpha tester!! They should have given these cars to people like Lyle, who would give them a real world testing and an unbiased review and feedback for improvements………..
JMHO
October 28th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Very well said Jason. I agree that the biggest risk will be tied to the components that haven’t been used in this application before. Given suitable time and extensive testing, these little bugs will be worked out and we will end up with battle hardened gear.
I also remember doing some testing on equipment that I helped design. The test rig was a 2ft. diameter rolling cylinder that was mounted horizontally between bearings at ground level. This cylinder is about 10 feet long and is powered by an electric variable speed drive. The equipment to be tested was positioned over the cylinder so that the tires contacted the cylinder at 12 o clock. (6 o clock for the tire) The big kicker here is that we could bolt blocks onto the cylinder to represent bumps in the road way. Some of the blocks could be as large as concrete parking stops.
During testing, the equipment or the test rig would fail after only a few days. This thing was brutal, but it did a good job of showing the engineer where the weak points in the design were. Some of the failure points were expected, others came outta nowhere. Keep up the good work GM. With extensive testing being done, I will have more confidence in buying a first year model.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Here is key thing which differentiates product from a big company vs startup.
I think now a days a normal car runs more software than my computer and i cant afford a blue screen in my car.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:17 am
“The Quality goes in, before the Name goes on”.
-Ooops. That’s Chrysler’s tag line.
Whatever happened to Chrysler anyway….?
October 28th, 2009 at 9:18 am
Zipdrive, I respectfully disagree.
They didn’t run out in the middle of nowhere. They completed their driving with 3 miles of charge left. EVs traveling for 313 miles without a charge is pretty damn good, range anxiety not withstanding.
If I could buy an EV with a 300 mile highway range, I would gladly do it
for a much much lower price than the Tesla.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Who?
October 28th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Not a test of tech I think, batteries/motors and controllers are well understood (motors have been a mature tech for over 100 years.. invented 188 years ago).. so not really a mule.. but a test of how people adapted to BEV/psychology .. how people would deal with range anxiety and so on, to learn what people really want out of a BEV. The same reason GM did the EV1 and the lessons learned lead to the Volt EREV… all that data is deeply guarded in the GM vaults.
If it had been a true mule test then it really was a foul thing to do.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Dave, you think GM puts out misleading information out on purpose to delay the competition?.. I think they will surprise a lot of people when they release the true CS Mode mileage.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:07 am
========================
Herm:
As I recall, Lyle said this was a standard Mini, with the ICE components ripped out and replaced with a motor, controller, and a battery pack in the back, so I think this really qualifies as a “mule” and not a production type vehicle. The 1600+ EV-1 units delivered by GM were hardly in that stage of development. So I stand by my statement that I think it was pretty “ballsy” of them to charge so much for being an Alpha tester of the Mini.
And I agree that electric motor and controller development is well understood, but not in the use as battery powered, highway capable, electric cars. So there must be full testing done to make sure these units will hold up under the harsh extremes they will be subjected to.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Nope, I remember it too. Hopefully, it has died a natural death.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:10 am
LOL. +1
October 28th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Modern hybrids deal with high power, obviously not at the 150hp level of the Volt but pretty high.. note how the Toyota and Ford hybrids recently dominated the Consumer Reports reliability rankings.
Eventually pure BEVs like Lyle’s Mini will make the corner garage mechanic obsolete.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:18 am
It’s kind of like Tom Sawyer getting the other kids to paint the fence, LOL.
I used to think that GM should do the same thing. I even volunteered to pay the $800+/month. After following this thread, I am finally beginning to believe that GM was right all along.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:23 am
BMW is not interested in doing a test of another company’s hardware, they really are testing the people.. and charging $800 a month is part of the test.
Testing hardware is best done by professionals.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:24 am
I agree 100%…the charge of $800 seems crazy to me.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:28 am
=D~
October 28th, 2009 at 10:29 am
They’re all taking Italian lessons at Rosetta Stone.
I’ve been wondering what happens to the NASCAR boys when Dodge goes away? They raced Chryslers in the ’50s, so I guess they just slap some Chrysler wraps on the COTs and go on. Or maybe FIAT will go up against Tojo, LOL.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Lyle, can you ask about testing in sub-zero weather? Can I let the car sit for 8-12 hours at work without it being plugged in and still drive home less than 5 miles away under electric power? I have read that the battery is kept warm to minimize cold weather leakage, but that takes power as well. I realize that under such conditions the generator would likley kick in, I was just wondering what the limits are. Also how well does the car handle in snow and ice? Can it drive in say 4 inches of snow without a problem, or does the extra battery weight cause issues? Let us all know, for not everyone lives in Florida.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:41 am
I didn’t say ALL would be interested, I said SOME. The point is that pure electric drive is improving all the time, and there is not one solution that would be convenient for everyone.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:57 am
I thought that tag line was ‘Quasar, by Motorola’. With ‘works in a drawer’.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:02 am
My bad. It was Zenith.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:10 am
I have confidence GM is going through a far more extensive process to get the Volt right, when compared to the small startups. I believe the Volt will hit the ground finished and ready to roll.
What I’m not as sure about is how well GM will take care of the Volt after they hit the road. I’m confident they can do this well, but if Consumers Reports ratings can be used as a guide, their after sales service history has been spotty at best.
GM must continue the perfection they are trying to put into the Volt after they get into the hands of customers. The Volt is going to make or break GM’s image going into the future. Its importance to GM is less about direct profit and all about prestige.
Get it right, and follow it through well.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:20 am
I agree that they were mostly interested in testing people But I think the $800 a month was part of that. First of all, they wanted to see if they could get applicants at that price (which they did). And second, they wanted to screen out the casual observer. This way the testers had to put their money with their mouth is.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:22 am
stuart22 I couldn’t agree more. I have had mostly good luck with GM vehicles, but I am apparently in the minority. GM needs to do the Volt right and impress the majority. They also need to learn from it and start the new GM off right by bringing quality, value, and service to existing customers and bring in new ones. As has been said before the devil is in the details.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Is Mini being open regarding the problems that the $800.00 a month testers are having? If they are what is the web site showing this info?
October 28th, 2009 at 11:39 am
I don’t think the 313 miles is meaninngless, but it isn’t as important to me as finding out stuff like what an average driver will get in the way of AER in the Volt in city driving, with the ac/heat on, or with lights on. What I will get driving at 65mph, 75mph. What mileage non-hyper milers will get in CS mode, city, hwy at 65 mph… How long it will take for LiIon batteries to come out at at price point of $300 per kWh, or less. How quickly will the economies of scale kick in so that the electrical intent items like the electric power steering, the electric hvac/heat pump, etc. will drop in price allowing the Volt to sell at a profit at $35,000 before credit, or better yet, below $30,000.
I am not asking much, but when this stuff is first revealed, I imagine it will be on this site.
If Lyle doesn’t go crazy with us bitc**** about the ads and the format…
October 28th, 2009 at 11:45 am
You have taken my comment completly out of context and then taken an crude attempt at marginalizing me at the end of your comment. If not for this web site there would be little transparency into the Volt process and at times GM seems to distance themselves from this site. I call that errogant.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Me too. We have 4 daily driver Chevys for business and family use. We have had a few minor warranty items/recalls, and the dealer support has been outstanding.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:48 am
=======================
Laura & Herm:
OK, they got 100 people to pony up $800 / month for a year for a test. Are you trying to interpret that to mean they now think several hundred thousand people would be willing to do the same???
I think that is kind of a stretch, especially for a spartan, (Lyle’s word, not mine) low range BEV……….
JMHO
October 28th, 2009 at 11:50 am
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October 28th, 2009 at 11:51 am
I am sorry, but I have to do this:
The word is arrogant, not errogant……………
Now back to your regular programming!
October 28th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
The best measure of quality is that GM will have produced about 3500 hundred Volts simply for internal testing before Tesla produces its first 1000 Lotus roadsters. Aptera has shown a second Aptera enclosed motorcycle and says its “production ready”. Sure it is.
You really have to be quite gullible with these startup electric a car makers.
Even Chrysler was supposed to be planning to produce some 500 Circuits for internal testing, before offering the first one for sale. And its experience in building electric cars is measured at greater than 40,000 GEMs.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
I agree with you Jason. As far as hybrids, here are a few interesting tidbits for y’all……….The Ford Escape has 300 volts @ the battery alone–needless to say, techs are HIGHLY trained to get certified as they could easily die.
The good news is that the battery has come down $4-5k in about 3 years time. It currently lists at $8,198.89. As for the Ford Fusion, it currently lists at $4,686.81. Thought y’all might like to know………
October 28th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I thought that was Zenith’s slogan…?
And yeah, as Rashiid said, remember THEM? They’re even more gone than Chrysler.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Lyle, great post today. Your unfortunate story about becoming stranded after a pothole did you in is a good reminder that, no matter how perfect, any vehicle can have a problem. Obviously all of GM’s testing is designed to eliminate as many of those potential problems before they occur. Based on my experience with recent GM product launches, I absolutely believe they are focused on delivering world-class quality in each vehicle.
Your story reminds us how important a good local service provider is. While MINI may be small enough to have a group of “flying doctors” to swoop in and deal with MINI-E problems when they pop up, GM will not have that luxury. This is one of the main reasons we will likely see fairly tight initial distribution geography. The technical training required to get a dealership technician certified to work on the VOLT will likely be extensive. While most GM dealership technicians will be well-versed with the 1.4 liter ICE, the VOLT’s vast array of electrical systems and interfaces will require specialized knowledge.
I expect that some of this training will begin as early as next Spring and will involve both computer based and hands-on training. I’ve mentioned this is past posts, but each dealer will be responsible for funding the training of their staff. Dealers will need to be willing to look at VOLT training as an investment rather than an expense. Some will be willing to invest; others will not. So it will be important for early VOLT owners to know where they can go for quality, knowledgeable service when a problem does occur (as much as we all want the VOLT to be perfect, I think its safe to say that none of us can expect a ZERO tolerance for problems or issues). JMHO.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
I’ve heard of tons of problems even on the mini(gas) with trannies
So it might not even be the fault of the people that made the electronics unit, but poor engineering of the car itself to divert shock from vital components..
Just a thought.
Though, it’s good that this happens now, so all future e-car manufacturers ensure it doesn’t happen in their cars :p
October 28th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Hey, what about giving the better ones to the dealerships as Not For Sale, for test drives, marketing platforms, service practice, etc.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
First of all, no car company has complete transparency into their processes. And for good reason. Anything the public knows, their competition also knows. Also, the last thing they want to do is focus attention on their future vehicles as opposed to what they want people to buy right now.
The difference here is that GM is serious about buildng the Volt. Regardless of their reasoning, they’re obviously doing extensive testing. BMW isn’t. GM has extensive resources and experience doing beta testing that start ups lack. BMW is also a major manufacture and has similar resources to GM. But they chose not to use them. Clearly they aren’t serious about the mini. So if anyone’s disqualified themselves it should be BMW.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
If we are going to go off on an advertisement tangent, then here is my entry.
Since the first time I saw it, this Whirlpool ad has done more to influence me in working to making my business the best I can, than any other ad I have ever seen!!!.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj-vIOMtVY0
October 28th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
No. But it’s a good indication that there’s strong interest out there in BEVs. So, now they know that. And they have people’s responses to using them. Given that data, they will decide whether or not to use their resources to produce one suitable for sale. This one clearly isn’t.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
BYD’s Plug-in Cars Face Technical Hurdles
PUBLISHED OCTOBER 27, 2009
People are very used to high quality cars – they will be unforgiving of any problems.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Speaking of quality, here’s an interesting article:
http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1152/asians-top-auto-reliability-ford-cars-score-well/
Ford is catching up with the Japanese brands who are still on top, GM unfortunately is still lagging in quality.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Meaningless report. Typical CR. How can Buick and Cadillac go from near the top to almost bottom in 1 year? Ridiculous.
This kind of data continues to undermine the already dubious credibility of CR. At least the data collection techniques, questions, or something.
Even IF the quality at Buick and Cadillac softened some (I simply don’t buy that as a new Enclave owner, ours has been bulletproof), these results are silly.
Seems to me CR got the results they wanted.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Lyle– I guess that’s what the purpose of the MINI E lease program is: To get people to do real-world testing for them. Pretty smart– you pay them instead of the usual thing where they pay engineers.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
I am sure we got an unbiased report from that executive..
October 28th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I wonder what else they learned.. are people happy with the range?, performance?.. probably very proprietary information.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Hey NZDavid, where ya been, man? +1 for being here. Don’t be a stranger.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Hear, hear. Second the motion. +1
October 28th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Aaaarrrrggghhh, I knew it! It’s a BYD. Quick, cover the childrens’ eyes!! Dr. Dennis, what have you unleashed upon us unsuspecting bloggers?
All things considered, I’d rather see Bob Lutz. Or even Johnny Depp/Captain Jack.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
I’ll highlight the Jason H. post. Semiconductor Auto electronics have been around for over forty years. Reliability and semi’s are synonymous. As anyone here who’s been involved in semi knows – semi lives and dies on reliability. Not just that… but semi military & space go back even further. (Hi-rel testing may increase the semi’s cost 50 or even a 100 times the commercial cost.) Today, semi for auto reliability is as much of priority as where to place the steering wheel. Electronic module failure, whether component or connector, is inexcusable. War story: In 1964, GME (General Micro Electronics) of Palo Alto, announced it was making an electronic calculator. GME’s semi chips (the circuits) were the absolute worst. Nothing worked. First Philco of Phila.Pa. bought out GME. Then Ford bought Philco. (c.1967) (Although GME was finally shut down Philco-Ford – Palo Alto specialized in big-time space & mil projects.)
October 28th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Errogant is as errogant does.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Errogant: The speaker of this word is both arrogant and erroneous.
Citation needed …
October 28th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Sorry you are having problems with the Mini-E, Lyle, but those problems will help resolve future problems. You should not continue to “baby” the vehicle, but drive it relentlessly. Find some nice rough roads to drive over at least once a week to really put the car through its paces. That kind of testing will pay dividends down the road for all Mini-E owners. Go get ‘em, Lyle.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Congratulations to NASA for the successful test firing of the Ares 1 (x):
Apparently the second stage wasn’t a functional item (aside from attitude control), and the test done primarily for the solid-fuel 1st staqe.
The ride looked very smooth from the onboard camera, and nothing (obvious) went wrong.
Story and video archive at:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/ares/flighttests/aresIx/index.html
And now, my pathetic attempt to make this item semi-relevant:
… Keep on testing, guys; NASA has to get this one right (not unlike a certain automobile manufacturer).
October 28th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
You get the citation. That should definitely be a word!
October 28th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
“Fickle electrical connections and sensitive electronics may be more vulnerable to these effects than mechanical combustion powertrains which have been road-tested for a hundred years”
Well actually electrical parts have been hand in hand with the combustion powertrains for as long as cars have been around. Electric drives have been around for at least a half century. And electronic parts have been around in cars for 30 years or so. I remember cars of the 50’s where the radios would only work for 8 or 10 years or so. Now with the new electronic gadgetry, they seem to last forever.
I would say the mini has a major design flaw.
October 28th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
What are you all sitting around talking about potholes for? It’s potheads you need to be worried about! If something isn’t done about the stoner population there’s going to be a hippie jam fest the likes of which the world —– has never seen.
-Eric Cartman
October 28th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
and if you have to pee some blood, then that is ok, save the planet!
October 28th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
I have never liked the way CR tests things and reports on them. Their statistical analysis is also suspect. I look more to JDPowers and others that are respected in their analysis.
As far as CR testing cars, they are the worst. I look to Car and Driver, Motor Trend, etc whose methodologies haven’t waivered for decades.
October 28th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
At “The Business of Plugging In” conference Rob Peterson answered this exact question with “we have an ICE on board and it generates a lot of heat.” The Volt battery has both heating and cooling and in very cold weather the ICE will supply the heat before you start up.
-John
October 28th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
No, the Mini-E isn’t a production car; but I believe we’ll see similar incidents from other manufacturers’ offerings as the upcoming bevy of BEVs actually hit the streets — and this before reading about Lyle’s cold-weather experiences. I don’t see a lot of evidence that a real, non-niche, affordable electric car is being taken as a sufficiently serious challenge by any company — with the sole exception of GM. It may look like a close race from this vantage point, but real testing and effort will always tell. Other manufacturers will be forced to play catch-up until they put in their dues (or reverse engineering). By that time, hopefully, the Volt will have made the quality impression that we all hope it will; and the New GM will be well on it’s way up.
October 28th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Actually the Tesla goes 244 miles on a single charge not over 300 miles but it is still very impressive only one problem I’ve heard on Youtube that some complained that they can’t go higher than 60 MPH for some odd reason? So I hope the Volt will have better performance then the Tesla when it comes to speed take for example your on the highway and a speed limit sign says 70 MPH and you can go only 60 MPH and then I wouldn’t be surprised if people would start honking there horns at you if you were going 10 MPH slower then the suggestive speed limit and as well a police man/woman might pull you over for being too slow so if I were you I would choose the Volt by no other means.
October 28th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Yeah, maybe BMW will send a tow truck to follow him around for when he shakes stuff loose, LOL. Otherwise he may lose a lot of valuable blogging time, and/or brain surgery time, standing around by the side of the road waiting to be rescued.
October 28th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
LOL. Literally. +1
October 28th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Perhaps there are a dozen manufacturers doing their testing in secret.. like auto manufacturers usually do.
October 28th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Yeah, if you’re not, the road’s not rough enough.
October 28th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/28/autos/gm_sales_projection/index.htm?postversion=2009102814
October 28th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Mini E #250(and future Volt owner) driver here. Yes, they are mules, but the fit and finish is as good as the production Mini’s. I have been driving the car into the ground since I got it and have put 12,000 miles on it in a little over four months. I “try” to break it and haven’t had any luck yet. Electric drive is really awesome, you’ll see once the Volt is on the road. It really is a different driving experience and once you get to experience it you’ll be hooked. As for the $850/month lease payments, yeah it’s probably higher than it should be, but Mini pays the insurance and 100% of any repair/maintenance bills including wiper blades. I, as Lyle I’m sure, just wanted to be part of the “electric” movement. To me it’s worth the price of admission. Anyone wanting to check out my blog, just google “mini e 250″. (My comment got auto deleted because I post the blog address so you need to do the search to find it.)
October 28th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
( http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/perf_specs.php )Top Speed 125 mph (electronically limited)
October 28th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
You probably can’t go over 60 mph if you want to get the 244 mile range. That’s my problem with things like the Think, or probably even the Leaf. They may have a freeway legal top speed and a 100 mile range but, if you go at freeway speeds, what’s the range then. Not 100 miles, I would be willing to bet.
October 28th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Why don’t you try comparing the EV range instead of the petrol burning pilluting range? That’s the only thing in common you can compare.
Why do you folks continue to comapre the total opposites and say ones better?
October 28th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Shouldn’t the Pentagon name a rocket after the God of War, not NASA ?
October 28th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
The Volt is 2″ longer than the leaf, an inch wider, and 4 inches shorter, so it probably has a MUCH better cDa. And the Volt is going to get nearly 40 miles AER with a 16 kWh battery. The Leaf is going to have a 24 kWh battery and is supposed to get a 100 mile AER. Forget about 60 mph to get 100 miles range out of the Leaf, they will be lucky to get that far at 35 mph. Obviously, the Leaf 100 mile range is City cycle, but I just doubt that a battery half again as heavy as the Volts will help the Leaf much there. What is the probable AER of the Leaf? 60 miles city cycle? 70? No ER-EV with that range! That is like buying a car with a 3 gallon gas tank.
That is where the ER-EV idea makes so much sense, use a small, inexpensive (comparatively) battery and combine that with a light, efficient ICE for the long distance days. The problem with the Volt is that 1.4L I-4 is more engine than they need. I hope by 2011 we will be able to choose a 1.0L ICE (possibly turbo), then the CS mode will be able to be 50 mpg or better.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Err… no, thats not really the problem. The extra 50lbs or so the 1.4L ICE has over the 1.0L ICE isn’t going to return drastic improvements in CS mode.
Nor is a lower displacement engine -always- better for fuel economy.
What GM can do to improve CS mode numbers is to improve the electronics, generator efficieny, battery usage (capacitors to even the load?). If they are really ambitious, they will completely change the engine type. Say HCCI? Diesel? Wave Generator?
But in truth, by Volt 2.0, I think people will have bought into the concept of -average- fuel economy. Increasing the AER from 40 –> 50 would probably be a better use of funds than going from a cheap cheap cheap ICE to an more expensive solution.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Very nice blog Tom.. apparently Lyle’s Mini has a had a problem with the controller for a while.. back in sept he posted that it would pop out of gear with a loud bang.. and that BMW requested that he bring it in for an inspection.
http://gm-volt.com/2009/09/01/3000-miles-of-driving-the-mini-e-pure-electric-car/
October 28th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Herm,
Yes I read that also. Lyle is definitely wrong about Mini designing the car that way to dissuade abuse. I frequently email about 30 other Mini E drivers and only one had the problem that Lyle had and he had it fixed with a new PEU. I did have a faulty battery module replaced about 3 weeks after getting the car but other than that I have had no problems. The cold weather is starting to reduce the driving range, but that was expected. I had been averaging 105 -110 miles per charge (actual driving, not estimated) but it’s been lower lately on cold days. I have kept detailed records of every mile I’ve driven. If anyone wants to see the data, just email me from my blog and I’ll send you the charts.
October 28th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
A city parking lot in Santa Barbara. 10/28/09
As I parked my Ninja in a city lot today I noticed several freshly painted parking spaces. These prime spaces are located right next to the sidewalk. The wall mounted power supply units don’t have any “pay now” dollar slots. There is simply a button that is marked “charge now”. I took a couple of photos with my cell phone. And found a few more on the internet.
The first hour of parking is free; additional time is $1.00/h
=D~
October 28th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
I was lurking because I didn’t really like the nested comment style,then I discovered BOINC and have been busy building a 20k computer network to supply the necessary grunt to run mutiple climate models (CPDN) etc.
I love the new format, the pink tie series gave me a real belly laugh the other day. ROFLMAO.
LJGTVWOTR
Has plug? Have sale.
October 28th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
ziv,
I agree that running a 1.4L ICE, while towing along all that extra baggage has to bring the mpg of the Volt below the original 50 mpg estimate.
The question is how far below that magical 50 mpg, will the Volt sink. Using the battery to supplement the ICE, seems like a good idea, but again, with GM’s explanation that the ICE will not be used to charge the battery, but only sustain it. You will get some regen recovery, but getting more than 30-40% recovery, would be optimistic.
My guess is the Volt gets about 38-40 mpg hwy when in ER. (just a guess, which is all anyone can do until we get some real data)
BTW: I highly doubt that the Volt would be able to operate with a 1.0L (with or w/o a turbo charger). To pull this heavy vehicle up any type of incline requires HP, and I am surprised the 1.4L, has the balls, but GM supposedly said it did (They need to convince me with more than just speak, based on their past track record)
October 28th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Who’s EV1 is that? I thought they crushed ALL of them?
October 28th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
This will be the third controller in Lyle’s Mini.. it must be apparent to BMW that something else is the cause.. I have seen defective windings and bad cables in brushless motors blow out controllers several times.. even too much inductance from the battery to the controller can be a disaster..things can get dicey when you are dealing with such high power levels. Hopefully the Volt wont suffer from this.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
The Volt has enough balls even with a non-turbo 1.4l engine.. and one that has been derated to run at only 4000 rpm.. can you imagine if they upped it to 6500rpm? or added the turbo used in the Cruze?.. GM has lots of options to increase power.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
Herm,
I agree they have plenty of options. I am just curious how the Volt will actually perform with 1.4L. This is nothing new, since 1.4L engines are running in cars today.
What is new is that your now pulling along all that extra weight of the generator, battery, motors, power electronics, cabling.
I will believe that the Volt can actually perform, once I get my test drive, and get to experience the Volt running up hill in true charge sustain mode. Until then, I will maintain my pessimism.
PS: Thanks Lyle, for the new format! I feel like I can once again follow along and contribute to your wonderful site.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Herm,
Yes, it’s funny. It seems that some of the cars(like mine) never have a PEU (controller) problem while others (like Lyles) need to have it changed multiple times. Does make you wonder if it isn’t something else causing the problems.
Tom
October 28th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
There’s going to be a day when a citizen becomes aware that he (or she) is helping to cover the cost to recharge electric cars in garages like this. It won’t be long before there will be a lot of pi$$ed off people.
Their solution will either be to force recharging stations to charge users, or to buy an electric vehicle.
October 28th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
I’m curious as to why this site doesn’t cover or discuss more PHEV/EREV vehicles, other than the Volt (and occasionally the Prius). Fisker Automotive, for example, has announced a PHEV/EREV coming out in 2012 that is supposed to be in the same price range as the Volt. As the Volt isn’t coming out until November of 2010, Fisker is only one year behind GM, and I believe they purchased GM’s Delaware plant to manufacture it.
Respectfully,
Dr. Ibringdoh
October 28th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Let’s hope that GM tests the hell out of the Volt so that all the electronics can “take a licking and keep on ticking” like they used to say for Timex watch commercials.
Us early Volt buyers want a reliable car that will STAY that way. I’m sure GM wants to avoid warranty claims and recalls too. GM probably needs to over-engineer these 2011 Volts so that EREVs don’t get the bad publicity, etc. I want to see a wave of good publicity that just keeps on coming in the early years of the Volt.
Use QUALITY MATERIALS everywhere if possible. No cutting corners. Electronics can have problems with electromagnetic radiation and so forth … as well as a sensitivity to the g-forces like Lyle experienced with his Mini-E. Same thing can happen to your laptop PC or iPhone if your drop it. Not cool when it happens with your car. YOu can’t avoid EVERY big pothole out there. Just “rugged-ize” everything as much as possible if it doesn’t cost a fortune.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:46 pm
Daily posts are categorized so that they can be looked up by topic. Take a look in forums under “Competition” (or is it “Competitors”) and I think you’ll find a lot of items about other cars (based on what little information is made available by their manufacturers). Commentors also regularly mention other types of EV.
Comparisons with the Prius are perhaps inevitable, given it’s current status as King Hybrid (we also have some notable Prius fanboys who drop by far, far too often).
As for the rest of it, this IS a web site devoted primarily to the Volt.
An allied website, allcarselectric.com, regularly features items on other electric vehicles (there’s a link on the masthead of this site).
October 28th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Should be tomorrows topic. It would be interesting to know how GM’s restructured balance sheet and cost structure has affected business operation cash flow now that they seem to be finding their see legs.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
It’s gm-VOLT.com not fan-FISKER.com Dr. Duh.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
When GM says they will not use the ICE to “charge” the battery, they mean completely, not partially. Many people originally thought the Volt was an EV that would run on 8kWh electric energy (half the capacity of the 16 kWh battery, to extend battery life), then the ICE kicks in, charges the battery 8 kWh again, then turns off. Drive, repeat. This would be overkill, since if you arrive home with the battery charged 90%, plugging it in would only charge it another 10%. This defeats the purpose of plugging in the battery to drive 40 miles on electric power the next day.
But, like the Prius, the electric motor can be driven by both the generator directly, or by the battery, or both. There is a small buffer of State of Charge in the 16 kWh battery that is charged and discharged constantly in CS mode – this allows a 71 hp ICE/generator, plus a battery, to power a 150 hp electric motor.
This is what GM means by “sustain” the battery charge. Charge is sustained within a small range (buffer), which is actually quite large compared to the tiny Prius energy buffer of 0.52 kWh.
GM’s guess was between 40 and 50 mpg:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/10/27/bob-lutz-implies-chevy-volt-will-get-between-40-and-50-mpg-in-charge-sustaining-mode/
The electric motor can supply 150 hp to pull this heavy vehicle up any type of incline: 71 hp from the ICE, 79 hp from the battery.
Go study how hybrids work: the second generation Prius had only a 76 hp ICE powering the car (a 1.5L I-4). The trick is to charge the battery when power demands allow the ICE to divert power to be stored for later, then using that stored energy when power demands are above the max the ICE can deliver.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
I don’t see it this way. It’s more of one hand washing the other. Businesses like shopping malls, restaurants, and theaters will spend advertising dollars on EV recharge station installations. Once these locations are mapped with OnStar and other GPS devices. These businesses will see increased cash flow activity for decades to follow. It’s win, win.
=D~
October 29th, 2009 at 12:01 am
It sounds like BMW tried save money and reuse a part meant for gasoline cars. As a result they are having trouble with it working with the new power plant. A friend of mine is having similar problems with his EV conversion. He is trying to reuse the automatic transmission and not having much success because the gear ratios are wrong and pushing the fluid around eats up battery power.
If the entire power train was made to be in an EV there would be no transmission problems. Why, might you ask? The AC Propulsion drive system does not require gear changes. A single speed gear reduction box will take the car from 0 to 90 MPH before a gear change would be needed. Since the highest speed limit I’ve seen on a US highway is 75 MPH, who needs any other gear ratio?
October 29th, 2009 at 12:50 am
I thought that was weird too, until I realized the ultimate purpose is to facilitate travel to Mars. Mars=Ares
October 29th, 2009 at 12:53 am
The difference here is this was an imperfect conversion of an ICE to an EV; it’s still a product of the ICE based engineering. In pure EVs (built to be an EV) there is no actual “neutral” gear (they just stop the motor), there isn’t even a gear box for something to go wrong with it. That is the reason why we say it will be more reliable. And if we compare apples and apples with a car that was actually production quality, then I am willing to bet the EV is more reliable. The MINI E has been one of the least refined EVs I have seen (from anecdotal accounts), it seems even the cheap lead acid based NEVs can be more refined (they don’t have these gearbox popping issues). This is the mainly the product of it being a mule and it being a conversion from an ICE car.
October 29th, 2009 at 4:31 am
I am suspect on GM ..Their record in the past does not boost any confidence ..GM, Lutz & these guys are used to selling big SUV & making fat profits ..They are not used to making quality cars & providing quality service ..I will not buy volt until 2-3 years down the line ..after the bugs are worked out .. You would think that a manufacturer like GM who has been in the buiness for 100 years should be able to bring an imp product like Volt with very few bugs if any …It all boils down to workers too ..US workers are not up to par with Japanese, Koreans ..& focused on quality …US workers is more interetsted in 8-5 & hit the bar next door ..Until that mentality changes ..quality will be poor ..GM need to insist on that kind of workmanship from its workers …
October 29th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Brian: You have taken my comment completly out of context and then taken an crude attempt at marginalizing me at the end of your comment. If not for this web site there would be little transparency into the Volt process and at times GM seems to distance themselves from this site. I call that errogant.
Brian.
I do not believe I took it out of context..I read and re-read your post.
you cleraly state GM has lost any benefit of doubt, but they should put out unready cars for testing…GM visibility is not from this site, they certainly do not need to share all they do, find me ONE other car ever develloped that had this amountof transparency..you cannot.
GM must put out a test fleet of perfect cars, they cannot have reports of failures.
I wasn’t being arrogant, you were either
a) not thinking or;
b) an old GM exec…the kind that killed the car company I love best
I did not marginalize you…you did that yourself, I merely stated you were obviously not thinking, or childishly wants it all, fix tyhe bad rep, but release the volt so you can maintain a bad rep…
you take it way too personal man… lighten up…cut back the caffeine, and take a chill pill.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Let me just say it again, don’t be a stranger. You have really contributed a lot over the months. We can use all the help we can get. Very best regards.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Yeah man, and I’m gonna believe all that stuff from Fisker when I see it anyway. If then, LOL.
October 29th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
That is interesting observation. You should be able to repair connections. I hope there will be access to all possible connections and possibility of fixing them in case of failure.
October 30th, 2009 at 5:31 am
[...] GM-Volt | The Truth About [...]
October 30th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Jackson:
I appreciate your response as well as your candor. With equal candor, I must confess that I am a supporter of EREV technology, and thus of the Volt — not necessarily a fan of GM. As you mention, this is a Chevy Volt fan site, and much of this site is dedicated to GM and/or Volt fandom. On the home page as I write this, there are seven articles discussing the Chevy Volt, five discussing GM, and three that have to do with electric cars or battery technology.
As it is EREV technology that really interests me — and what draws me to this site in the first place, perhaps I should browse on and search for EREV-related websites that focus less on companies and brand names and more on ideas and technology. I will, however, stop in and perhaps comment if I see an article that interests me.
Respectfully,
Dr. Ibringdoh
October 31st, 2009 at 5:03 am
[...] Bogs Learns From Mini E. After having driven 5,000 with a leased Mini E, Lyle, over at GM-Volt realizes why mules are not ready for prime time, as the Mini E and why it is important for GM to [...]