A question that remains unanswered by GM is what the Volt’s MPG will be in charge sustaining mode or while the generator is running.
When the Volt concept was first unveiled math models put it at 50 MPG, however since development began in earnest GM has kept silent about what it is actually turning out to be. The only thing everyone has heard by now is that city drivers could expect an average of 230 miles driven for every gallon of gas used over time, assuming a daily full charge.
However, when going on road trips for distances significantly greater than 40 miles it is still important to know how much gas the Volt will use in that setting.
The last time I asked Volt engineer Andrew Farah this question he said the MPG will “not significantly” differ from 50 MPG.
When we ran a poll on the topic here in August, 58% of 1549 voters predicted it would be less than 50 MPG, with the majority choosing 40 to 50 MPG range.
The question was recently asked of Tony Posawatz, Volt vehicle line director, by a Fox news reporter who actually had a good understanding of the car’s engineering. The video of this interview at the bottom of the post is well worth viewing.
When asked what the Volt’s MPG will be in charge sustaining mode Posawatz responded:
“We’re still testing that in all honesty, but we can make the following statement. It will be better than any conventional car in the class and we’re trying to figure out how close or if it will be actually better than other hybrids.”
According to fueleconomy.gov, the car with the best fuel economy in the small car class is the Toyota Yaris which gets 29 MPG city and 36 MPG highway for a combined fuel economy of 32 MPG.
Though Fox as a result of the interview reports“Chevy Volt to Get 32 MPG?” Posawatz seems to clearly state it will be more than that.
This entry was posted on Sunday, October 25th, 2009 at 6:15 am and is filed under Efficiency, Video. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (6:34 am)My gut on this is that it will get nearly 50 mpg, but up until recently I thought it would get between 50 mpg and 60 mpg, so my opinion may not be realistic.
I realize that there are systemic losses between the generator and the motor, but the generator will be operating at one of several sweet spots, and that excess power will be shunted into the battery, allowing the generator to power on and off as the battery goes from 30% to 35%, and back and forth. But it just seems like the combination of regenerative braking and the ICE not needing to be on full time will give Prius beating MPG. I still believe that with real world conditions, i.e. heat or AC, lights on, driving a bit aggressively, I will get just 35 miles AER, and I am good with that. Like I said a few weeks ago, if the Volt gets me 35 miles all electric and 40 mpg, I will get around 300 mpg for the year.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (6:50 am)New comment feature 3.0 for GM-VOLT.COM. Had to give a test drive.
Ziv, sounds like you’ve got it about right. City CS mode MPG should be a little better than the Prius’ but highway will be slightly worse, all assuming an Atkinson cycle for the engine. I wish someone would ask GM the question about what cycle the engine will use.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (6:58 am)I kind of like this feature…
Koz, I think in the video Tony says they are using the EPA Combined cycle, which is cool because it is the most realistic test. Most of us use more city than highway, and the test takes that into account.
One thing that I think is really important is that the Volt isn’t for everyone. If you drive 18,000 miles or more a year, you would be better off with a Prius if the Volt gets less than 45 mpg in Charge Sustaining mode. But for most of us, who drive less than 15,000 miles a year, the Volt is going to be getting eye opening MPG. Let me re post the comment I made last month…
I use my car for both business and private use, so I document every mile I drive every day. I average around 12,500 miles a year over the past 14 years, which is pretty close to average for American drivers. Last year, I drove over 35 miles in a single day 44 times, for a total of 1,681 miles that would have been using the ICE. (I figure I will have 35 mile AER since I will be using AC or heat most days.) 12,600 miles total, 1681 on gas, 10,919 using electricity leaves me with a bill for 35 gallons of gasoline per year and around 2200 kWh, which is about $100 and $220 each, respectively, or $26.50 a month. My mileage would have been about 360 miles per gallon. Even if the Volt gets just 40 mpg in charge sustaining mode, I will only need 5 additional gallons a year, still better than 300 mpg!
As it is, my RAV4 gets around 20 mpg, so I actually bought 640 gallons of gas last year, and it cost me $1664. So the Volt will save me around $1400 a year, as it will for most people that drive an average amount. If I can plug in when I go to lunch my gasoline useage will drop even more, and within a year of the Volt becoming the Green Car there will be businesses bending over backwards to get their Green Credibility. An hours worth of 110 volt won’t fill the battery but it will reduce the amount of gas used further. Plus, I can put a PV array on the roof of my home, or install a wind generator on the roof of my garage. I can’t drill my own oil well.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (7:04 am)Hummmm, My 30 mpg-ish claim, that everyone beat me up about, is starting not to seem crazy after all. So, what will the Volt get at a steady 70 mph on the highway over a long distance? Come and add your number to the poll. Just click the forum button and place your bets.
Once again, even if it’s around 30 mpg that will not matter because this vehicle is not made for people that love the highway and put serious miles on it. If you do, get a small and clean diesel.
I’m just preparing people for what physics dictates. Given the same size car, weight, aerodynamics, etc. The mechanically connected vehicle will get better gas mileage. Why? Because it’s more efficient.
Will this kill the Volt? No! The decision to go with a serial hybrid was the right choice to make and it will have it’s own unique benefits, just like serial diesel locomotives and mining trucks. I think the Voltec drivetrain will be a great opening to yet another chapter in automotive history.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (7:10 am)IMHO, this is one of the hardware/software tuning projects that is still going on, and that GM really can’t give a final answer at this time.
If this part of the design and programming is finished, and GM has real numbers, I still don’t think they would announce it yet. As transparent as GM has been with this project, there are many things we will not be told until the vehicle is ready for delivery, and I don’t blame them. Look at the storm they created just by saying that Lyle’s list would not be used, and that they are still going with a limited rollout…..
Plus, driving needs and styles vary so much, this will be a tough one to calculate. For me personally, I would be using about 1.5 gallons of gas per week at 50 mpg becuase most of my driving will be all electric, so if it goes 1.75, I will not be crushed….
Just get me a Volt to drive!!!!
PS: Lyle – did you change the software to not allow replies to a specific post? I like it much better…….
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Oct 25th, 2009 (7:17 am)I once owned a 1980 Cadillac Cimaron which had a manual transmission. It got 32 mpg consistently. Fuel costs were really not at all a budget factor in driving it.
With the first 36 or so daily miles electric, the Volt owner will hardly know or care anymore that the Volt uses gasoline. Gasoline will truly become an afterthought.
Where the public has been conditioned to overly married to the idea that differences between 40 mpg and 60 mpg are important, that much extra efficiency is not only unimportant, but actually less and less desirable where gasoline will go stale* (footnote) and cause the need for invasive fuel system services (which you don’t want).
Therefore, America, if the Volt gets 32 miles per gallon in charge sustaining mode after you have first traveled, say, 36 miles in electric range mode, that 32 mpg charge sustaining fuel efficiency is the “best of all worlds”, since you would be moving at least the minimum amount of old fuel out of the tank before it goes stale or starts to sludge.
This site was deluged with access requests (around 17 million) when the “What’s 230?” mpg number came up.
(As various contributors here brought the perceived sensationalism back down to reality, the 5 million search-access number returned, when rational explanations and discussion moderated and explained how that number was to be understood).
The reliability and cost for the design, is far better served by a reasonable 32 mpg in charge sustaining mode than it would (if it could) ever be if some sensational and extreme fuel economy number was to be designed into it with an extremely lean burn, yet result in a repair risky and emissions risky situation.
* Stale gas can even begin to sludge and varnish-coat the fuel level sending unit potentiometer contact, causing that sort of problem potential also if the engine were not to run at scheduled times to automatically clear out the old gas.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (7:40 am)Great video. It is enjoyable to listen to an interview where the interviewer does understand the technology. I wrote the FOX car people early on to correct their initial concept of the VOLT as a unique series hybrid. Thanks, Lyle.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (7:43 am)Lets assume your actual city driving will be in charge depleting mode, i.e drives of less than the AER of the Volt, so the important number is what is the charge sustaining mode mileage on the highway. Now the Prius gets, according to the EPA, 48 MPG but many owners report mileage around 55 highway. Lets assume the Volt ICE operates more efficiently than the 1.8 L Prius, so it would get 60 MPG if it drove the wheels mechanically. Now the conversion to electricity (generator losses) and then the conversion back to mechanical energy (traction motor losses) will cut about 15% from that so we can expect a highway mileage of 51 MPG. But if you drive fast, you increase drag, and if you run the AC you “burn” more juice, so a reasonable number would be about 45 MPG in charge sustaining mode. This would be close to other (Prius) hybrids.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (7:44 am)I am dissapointed that the Toyoyta yaris was given the best in class fuel economy at 29/36. My 2009 Chevy Cobalt XFE is rated at 25/37 and gets a real world 33/41. I love my new Cobalt XFE, its a really awesome conventional car and I only paid 13,900 for it!
Its going to treat me well until I can get my hands on a Volt!
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Oct 25th, 2009 (7:45 am)What are the losses from a CVT? I think they accept some mechanical losses to keep the engine in the sweet spot. I agree that a direct drive tuned to a sweet spot would be most efficient.
However the journey in life is not typically a steady state.
My Prius reminds me of my Polaris snowmobile…
/benchmark Fusion
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Oct 25th, 2009 (7:46 am)Hey GM, will the Volt use an Atkinson cycle engine?
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Oct 25th, 2009 (7:58 am)I don’t think “higher than 32 mpg” is clear.
I would say “higher than 29 mpg” is clear.
The volt is classified as a C-class compact car, the Yaris is a B-class subcompact (regardless if the epa.gov website lumps them all together for their search feature).
/Either way, this likely puts the city/hwy combined at somewhere between 30 and 35 mpg. I would expect software changes to continually be tweaked all the way up to production and even after — which will push the mpg numbers around a little bit.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:14 am)Great phone conversation Mr. Posawatz. Your interview really conveys the “state of the art” confidence levels for Fox and everyone else.
Soon, the excitement will be universal, even to a DEEPLY RESPECTFUL (if not ironically-worried) competition.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:18 am)The classes are a bit tricky, the Yaris is in the subcompact class, the XFE Coupe is also a subcompact but the XFE sedan is classified as a compact. I believe the Volt will be classed as a compact. By comparison the Prius is in the midsize class.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:20 am)From Lyle’s text above: “We’re still testing that in all honesty, but we can make the following statement. It will be better than any conventional car in the class and we’re trying to figure out how close or if will be actually better than other hybrids.”
“According to fueleconomy.gov, the car with the best fuel economy in the small car class is the Toyota Yaris which gets 29 MPG city and 36 MPG highway for a combined fuel economy of 32 MPG.”
As I see it, heroic as it is to attempt an engineering analysis predicting the Volt’s CS mode mileage, there are still simply too many unknowns to make the prediction much more than a guess. Therefore, I prefer to approach the question more like Lyle does in the quote above….. i.e., by analyzing what Posawatz said. And remember that GM “understated & overdelivered” on the city-cycle mileage figure of 230 mpg —I’m convinced they’ll do the same for the CS mode mileage figure. So 1) I see the Volt’s CS mode as primarily highway mileage; very few owners will be confined to driving more than 40 miles in city traffic on a daily basis. And 2) Posawatz’ phrase, “we’re trying to figure out …. if will be actually better than other hybrids.” will later almost incriminate GM if the CS mode doesn’t at least approach Prius’ ~50mpg numbers.
Consequently, I remain optimistic that —except for very aggressive driving which might reduce the figure to the Yaris’ highway figure of 36mpg— the Volt’s highway and/or CS mode mileage will remain close to (if not more than) 50mpg.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:23 am)A 30 to 35 mpg in RE mode will be a problem for the volt/ series hybrid.
Some problems:
1. You can’t minimize the battery and produce a non plug in hybrid, you probably can’t even downsize the battery for a “volt light” (smaller aer range for less cost).
2. Long distance commuters/ long road trippers will be better off with a Prius. The Volt’s not so stellar mpg and pretty limited interior space will give “road trippers” pause when comparing a $23,000 prius (mid size interior) to a $40,000 volt (interior volume not announced, but likely pretty small due to the battery tunnel).
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:28 am)A Volt in the combined 50 MPG range would be accptable, 30’s is not. Why would you buy a Volt that get’s low 30’s when you could buy an 07′ Cadillac DTS that gets upper 20’s in combined driving. I’ll take the comfort & USEABLE SPACE! At a fraction of the cost.
The primary benefit of driving the Volt has to be fuel savings. Because the size just isn’t there. IMHO
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:31 am)Aren’t we talking about the same dimensions as is the Malibu?
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:45 am)Correct.
If the Volt costs $32K (after tax credits), and the Prius costs $22K, assuming the car lasts 10 years, that would be a difference of $1000/year. Assuming $4/gal, 10 cents/kwh, 18K miles/yr (12K electric) the Volt would probably save around $700/year in fuel costs over the Prius.
Bottom line: The Volt would have to cost $29,000 after tax credits to break even with the Prius, with the above assumptions.
So initial Volt buyers will probably spend a little more for total cost of ownership. Let’s hope GM can get the price down.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:50 am)Aren’t we talking about the Volt being the same size as Malibu?
The best way for us to understand the size of Volt (no exact dimensions given to date as far as I know) is to say if it is the same size as Malibu or other GM vehicle.
This is not a hard question to answer at this point in time.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:56 am)Remember, they are two totally different types of CVT with nothing in common other than the not having gears. One uses a CONE & BELT and the other PLANETARY power carriers.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:56 am)Correct.
The series design of the Volt requires a fairly large battery to provide enough instantaneous power to the electric motor, and provide enough buffer for range extended mode.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:08 am)We need to find out is what will be acceptable.
I could imagine low to mid 40’s for CS mode under the right conditions. But as GM has already established a percentage mindset for Volt marketing, there’s a need to find that number.
The harm that comes from false expectations is not something GM can afford. That original estimate of 50 MPG from the concept engine was only a 1.0 liter 3-cylinder. It’s a safe bet to believe that was more efficient but not powerful enough for peak demand needs… especially since no MPG update/confirmation has been provided since the switch. In other words, it’s not 50 anymore.
Is 42-45 (not winter) acceptable?
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:15 am)From the article:
It’s seems many people aren’t catching that last part…
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:15 am)IMO:
Above 50mpg: Strong selling point
40 to 50 mpg: Good enough
30 to 40 mpg: It’s an issue
Below 30 mpg: Major problem
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:35 am)I think mpg in the CS mode will be in the 40s (might even be in the 60s), and that is a very good number.. dont forget the Volt is a higher performance car than a Prius, so you cant expect Prius like mpg in a secondary operating mode. In the Volts primary operating mode (first 40 miles of “free” driving) it will beat a Prius by far.
The Malibu is a midsized car, the Volt is expected to be a compact.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:36 am)The Malibu is larger. We are talking about the same size as the smaller Cruze (and/or Cobalt).
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:38 am)I would agree with that all of those categories. Below 30 is a big problem
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:39 am)PS (to my comment #15): The “sticker wars” (arguments as to what the window stickers should show as “mileage” or “efficiency”) will hopefully be resolved so as to include both CITY & HWY figures for the Volt in CD mode, as well a separate figure(s) for CS mode. And both numbers MUST be comparable to or better than those for the much less expensive Prius!*
*If not, IMO GM will suffer significant lost sales to Toyota’s Prius!
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:46 am)Wow the more I see the original prototype the more I wish it worked in the wind tunnel.
I still say they should build the Original body Volt with the Eco Tech 4cyl and with a turbo and turbo diesel option.
Thats a winner with any propulsion system.
If the Volt doesn’t get 40MPG is sustaining mode….”Houston we have a problem”
Better get a diesel ICE to spin the Gen Set in there fast GM. Why they are so against Diesels is still mind blowing.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:48 am)The 2010 Ford Fusion…. Mid size… After almost 3 months and 8000 KMS…. I am still averaging 51 + MPG Canadian (approximately 46 MPG US.) combined city and highway. It is going to be tough for GM to get a Vehicle that is going to beat that…..
And I hear that Ford is going to be doing upgrades to the Fusion Hybrid (software upgrades to enhance it’s electric performance etc) that will make it even better… I still want a Volt for the days when I know I am not going to be travelling much more than 80 KMS (50 Miles) and using the Fusion for the longer trips..
Hey GM… You could get side by side comparisons of the 2 vehicles with weekly reports..
Just drop one off… I could be your test comparison person..
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:48 am)I think I like the nested replies better. It kept trains of thought in one place. Anyone know the reasoning behind “fixing” it?
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:54 am)If the MPG is under 40 MPG its going to be very hard to justify the cost of the Volt in my mind. If I can go out and get a Insight for about half the cost of the Volt and get better mileage on longer trips, I just can’t see pulling the trigger on the extra $20K. There is no way to recoup that extra purchase price in fuel savings, unless you never drive over 40 miles a day. And if thats the case a cheaper BEV would make more sense.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:54 am)The problem with making this comparison is that we have two different classes of cars here. Everyone makes this comparison because they equate a Prius with an electric vehicle.
The Volt is designed to use NO gas for the first 40 miles of the day, a VERY large proportion of drivers drive less than 40 daily.. and to drive those miles in a luxurious high performance sedan.
The Prius is designed to be a fuel miser, with a lower level of performance, and it reigns in that class, beating even the diesel econoboxes.. true it sips gas but what use would it be if you could not get any gas at all?.
A more appropriate comparison would be with the Ford Fusion Hybrid I would think, similar goals, cost, performance and weight. The Fusion is rated 37mpg hwy.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:02 am)I prefer the new (upgraded old) sequential system. Much easier to come back and catch up on what’s been posted. The nested system too often just ended up being a “fight for the top of the thread” than a “train of thought”.
Thanks for the upgrade, Lyle.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:04 am)Like you, I don’t know the exact dimensions of the volt, I can only make judgements from the videos and pictures of people standing next to it.
Here is an interesting tidbit-
http://www.brightautomotive.com/vehicles
Bright Automotive is claiming their delivery VAN will get 40 MPG in “regular hybrid mode”. If that’s true, then the volt better get about 80MPG in “charge sustaining mode”.
My 09′ GMC 3500 (diesel, crew cab, 8′ box) gets 17MPG @ 80 MPH with a cross wind! My expectations for the volt’s mpg in charge sustaining mode are high.
As always,
IMHO
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:06 am)People complained about the nesting in that it was hard to find the newest comment. Now the comments operate like a typical forum, where you can easily quote someone else’s comment or portion thereof and respond to it if you wish, or begin a new thought. Newest will always show at the bottom. It came about because I upgraded the whole blog’s software to the latest version, but was considering this change for awhile.
I find it’s hard to please everyone with whatever change I make, but the goal is to please the greatest percentage…kind of like the Volt itself
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:07 am)Reminder of Price Issue.:
The Gen I Volt is expensive. The following versions will come down like Plasma TV’s
Stop sweating the cost….for now You wont get one for a while anyway….
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:08 am)The reason was many complaints.. this system makes it easier to follow new replies to the thread instead of having to go thru 300 messages to pluck out the new additions. Just make sure you use the quote system (and trim the quote please) so we can make sense of what you are talking about.
This new system will be less fun since it will be much harder to sustain a back-and-forth conversation with one particular person. The quote system will quickly get out of hand since some people dont know how to trim quotes, or even worse will not bother to even quote. Quoting one of our wordy friends (yes Dan, you) will be painful.
I think the best way to do it is to use the previous nested system, but just automatically collapse (or hide) the messages you have already read .. but it may not be possible with this software or Lyle’s skills.
Lyle, stop messing around with Photoshop and get a degree in programing
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:24 am)They are expensive and heavy.. and the Volt already has problems in those areas.. Then on top of that you may have to add exotic emission control systems, more expense.. and then you have to deal with the stench of diesel all over your hands.. and god forbid if you spill it on yourself. I cant stand that cloying sweet smell of diesel, I guess you would get used to it quickly. Dont forget the noise and vibration.
If they want to increase the CS mode mpg a better way would be just to add a turbo, and perhaps reduce the size of the engine a bit.. perhaps to 1.1 liters or so.
Supposedly the Prius ICE has a diesel like 38% efficiency.. and with the simplicity of a gasoline engine.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:31 am)Is the “New GM” stupid? How hard is it to take a prototype VOLT with the VOLTEC concept an get an average fuel mileage reading at least with the present equipment installed.
It sounds as if the trick of not telling the truth is alive and well with the hope that they can attain the market share of ???? This determination of fuel mileage performed by the “Internal Combustion” engine is not high math. Hell, my VW TDI gets better overall gas mileage than was quoted as “32MPG” unless, fueleconomy.gov does not consider the VW TDI a car.
More misinformation out which seems to be the norm in todays internet society which is much like a modern day pig stall with slanted floors and a gravity fed dump tank.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:32 am)New Diesels do not stink. They smell pleasant compared to gas as strange as that sounds. Actually today’s Gas really stinks…what the heck is in there now…wow…
I agree with the turbo. Should have been one from the start. Additionally off the top of my head …is it the “miller” cycle that gives more efficiency….add that in also.
Guess I can arm chain engineer from here without being there and actually experience the testing and results…
But we do have major issues if 40mpg is not a minimum. Should be 60 to attract early adopters when the cost to produce it falls…
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:35 am)The Fusion is a great car, but 51 mpg Canadian equates to 42mpg USA.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:49 am)Jimmy, I totally agree with you. I just helped my daughter by a new Chevy Cobalt Coupe. What swayed me was that the MPG is better than anything in its class, AND it is sharp looking car from any angle.
She absolutely loves the car.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:52 am)If Volt 1.0 real world mpg is indeed low 30’s and real world aer in the low 30’s combined with a $40,000 price tag results in terrible sales . . . . then guess what?
Volt 2.0! Yea! — Just standby taxpayers, and keep the sponsorship coming. We’ll have the most fantastic green halo car for you in another 3 to 5 years.
If Volt 2.0 real world mpg is indeed ../ / …. results in terrible sales . . . . then guess what?
Volt 3.0! Yea! — Just standby taxpayers, and keep the sponsorship coming. We’ll have the most fantastic green halo car for you in another 3 to 5 years.
The fun could go on forever!
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Oct 25th, 2009 (10:53 am)We’ve been debating this question for over a year now on the Forum. Tom even designed an elaborate simulation for the Volt using MathCAD. The links to Tom Simulations are below:
http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=581
http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=454
Tom’s simulation predicts the Volt will travel about 28 miles at 70 MPH on a full charge (8 KWh usable energy) in full EV mode. Thus the Volt’s electrically efficiency at 70 MPH is predicted to be about 3.5 miles/KWh.
The energy Content 1 Gallon of Gasoline is:
1 Gallon of Gas = 36.419 kWh
http://www.cogeneration.net/FuelAndE…quivalence.htm
Electric generator losses usually include copper losses in the winding and magnetizing losses in the core, plus rotational losses. According to RETScreen Software model for a small hydro project, generator efficiencies can range from 93-97%.
http://www.jcmiras.net/jcm/item/93/
Otto engines have a peak efficiency of about 35% – in other words, 35% of the energy generated by combustion is converted into useful rotational energy at the output shaft of the engine, while the remainder appears as waste heat. An Atkinson-Miller cycle ICE is more efficient.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_cycle#The_Otto_cycle
If I assume the Volt’s generator will be about 95% efficient, and at 70 MPH the Volt’s engine will operate at a peak efficiency around 35%, the Volt’s MPG at a steady 70 MPH would be:
36.146 (KWh/Gallon) x 3.5 (Miles/KWh) x 35% x 95% = 42.1 MPG
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Oct 25th, 2009 (11:06 am)I am disappointed to read that the VOLT is in the same CLASS as a Yaris! When Lutz and Letterman stood next to it on tv, it seemed to be almost as big as a Chevy Malibu.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (11:12 am)It seems like GM like Congress has a problem with facts and figures . But the good news is they do not read the agrements that they sign either .
TIGER is good about that .
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Oct 25th, 2009 (11:13 am)It is starting to look that way.
Has there been any news on EEStor ?
Maybe that would make the difference someday.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (11:18 am)Dammit, Jim— He’s a doctor! Not a programmer!
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Oct 25th, 2009 (11:22 am)Interviewer talked about another series hybrid from a competitor with a rotary engine. Mazda?
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Oct 25th, 2009 (11:24 am)I follow this forum on my iPhone most of the time. I have discovered that if you ‘highlight’ or ‘copy’ just the portion of the quote you want to reference BEFORE tapping “quote” to reply, it will not copy the entire block. Only what you selected. That makes quick work of ‘trimming’ your responses.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (11:26 am)When and if GM brings the Volt to market, regardless of what the MPG of its GenSet will be, the HyperMilers are going to have a field day with it…can’t wait to see how many more miles they’ll squeeze out of it.
Also, we can no longer access the old forums; I was just on them yesterday.
=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Oct 25th, 2009 (11:28 am)I’m surprised you expect anything more from Fox.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (11:39 am)It’s still all speculation until independent testers (ie. long-term Motor Trend testing with a production Volt) is done.
It doesn’t really matter what cs mode mileage is to commuters. I expect to exceed 200MPG in my normal commute. (about 42 miles total per day). I might even get ‘horizontal-eight’ if I take it easy. The Volt may be smart enough to dip into the reserve if it knows I am ~2miles from home. For the rest of my driving, 30mpg is good enough.
As far as diesel for the genset, that is just a lot of expense for a diminishing return. The difference between 30mpg and 50mpg for most drivers is like $30 per month. The difference between 100mpg and 200mpg is pocket change.
If you’re that worried about cs mode gas mileage, the Volt is probably not a good choice.
Here is why I want a Volt:
- Coolness
- Caddy white paint
- Fill it up at home
- Main use: commute to work and back
- Stick it to the Sheiks
- E85 capable (only 15% of the fuel I do use will be foreign)
Gas mileage is not even on the list. Buying a butt-ugly Prius is also not on the list.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (12:00 pm)Here you find the fuel consumption in range extended mode.
http://www.opel-ampera.com/english/technology.php
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+2
Oct 25th, 2009 (12:11 pm)I don’t know…. For a doctor, he is doing a really good job! I am a programmer, and I doubt I could slice into someone’s head after just deciding to give it a try!!!
Lyle: Keep up the good work!
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Oct 25th, 2009 (12:16 pm)Well, I wrote these words on this blog several months ago:
“I will eat my hat if the Volt gets more than 40MPG in extended-range, non-city (freeway) mode.”
My gut tells me that I don’t expect to dine on hat anytime soon.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (12:32 pm)Just make sure you dont pick a brain from someone called A.B. Normal
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Oct 25th, 2009 (12:53 pm)Doesn’t this very site give the Volt specifications ? Have they changed since then ?
http://gm-volt.com/full-specifications/
And here’s the Malibu:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/chevrolet/malibu/101028431/specs.html
Malibu Volt
Length: 191.8 inches 177 inches
Width: 70.3 inches 70.8 inches
Height: 57.1 inches 56.3 inches
Wheel Base: 112.3 inches 105.7 inches
Curb Weight: 3415 pounds (3520 pounds ? I forget where I read this, it’s in my notes)
Luggage Capacity: 15.1 cu. ft. 10.6 cu. ft.
Horsepower: 169 hp 150 hp
Torque: 160 ft-lbs 273 ft-lbs
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Oct 25th, 2009 (1:17 pm)———————–
Dan
We have this information. It is as follows:
Volt has
Wheelbase (in / mm): 105.7 / 2685
Length (in / mm): 177 / 4404
Width (in / mm): 70.8 / 1798
Height (in / mm): 56.3 / 1430
Cargo volume
(cu ft / L): 10.6 / 301
Comparison of Honda Civic with Volt, Civic first
Length 177.3 / 177
Width 69 /70.8
Height 56.3 / 56.3
I’m not sure but I think that here “Honda Civic” is the 2009 Honda Civic.
That is, Honda Civic and Volt are very similar.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (1:18 pm)In the August poll, only 17% of us voted the low 30 mpg selection. While the 32 mpg may be relevant now – the burning question is – will that be relevant in 2012? Or even in the 2010-2011 minute ramping up. A small tank only highlights the range/mpg limitations. As the foregoing 17% indicates there’s hardly a poster who hasn’t complained about the extremely slow ramping up and/or the covert MPG. I’ve reached a new opinion. While the troops certainly are dedicated to the company line, plain and simple I think now GM leadership is hedging to gain more time for significant battery or alternative energy developments.
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+1
Oct 25th, 2009 (1:26 pm)Taking a somewhat different view, I think low 30’s is fine and will have no effect on sales. What makes the Volt special is the first 40 miles all electric. Now that 40 is just a goal, so we won’t always get that, but if we should move to a situation where the Volt gets substantially less than 40 most of the time, then the Volt is in trouble, because that is its signature performance characteristic. You can sort of hear a hint of doubt about the AER in Mr. Posawatz’s comments, but I am hopeful that was simply a mis-hearing on my part, or something of a special case.
That is, so long as 40 miles all electric range is a good number, I think the Volt will be in good shape as to sales, as least for several tens of thousands and probably many more.
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+1
Oct 25th, 2009 (1:27 pm)Isn’t the new Chevy Cruze closer in dimensions to the Volt? The Cruze is reportedly getting 40-42 MPG highway with the 1.4 liter engine and appears to have a slightly less aerodynamic design than the Volt.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/109102022543/gm-working-on-44mpg-chevy-cruze-new-impala-gets-green
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+1
Oct 25th, 2009 (1:29 pm)I bet for Generation 2 of the Volt, GM is going to have an IC engine designed from start to finish to be used for EREVs. It should be much lighter, smaller and inexpensive … yet it still should have enough capacity to make all the electricity the Volt needs.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they made it so refined and efficient that it would get 60+ mpg. Plus, it’ll probably be able to run on all sorts of liquid fuels … unleaded gasoline, E85, algae biogasoline, etc. Then, maybe in 2019 or whenever, they can talk about moving to hydrogen fuels cells … IF the hydrogen, the fuel cells, and the tanks are good enough and cheap enough.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (1:32 pm)Post said “When the Volt concept was first unveiled math models put it at 50 MPG,” I don’t remember any math models that did that with parameters that were realistic. The ones I remember put CS mpg in the mid-30s. It actually is a marked achievement to do that well.
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+2
Oct 25th, 2009 (1:36 pm)I know there are mixed views on what is the better way, but for me the system of sequential replies that is in use now is ever so much better. One can scan posts up to a certain number and then go back later in the day and pick up what has happened later. With nested I’m sure I was missing a lot of good stuff.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (1:43 pm)That WOULD have made it special, 10 or even 2 or 3 years ago.
Now the Volt has to compete with several other plug in hybrids and a swarm of BEV’s.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (1:59 pm)Compared to a FULL hybrid with plug, delivering a 100 MPG overall average?
Let’s not forget the diverse options that will be available, at quite a variety of different prices.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (2:03 pm)Looks like the new posting tool has a rather amusing bug… When you edit & repost, it appends a copy of your name to the name already there… then self-corrects if you submit a new post again later.
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+2
Oct 25th, 2009 (3:15 pm)Exactly… I interpreted this completely differently from most commenters. It seems from the interview like the Volt is comparable or perhaps better than most hybrids in terms of charge-sustaining mpg. I expect somewhere in the 40s, which is perfectly acceptable. It would have been nice to be 50+ just to beat the Prius but the whole point of the Volt is the PLUG!
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Oct 25th, 2009 (3:17 pm)Will a relative low highway charge sustaining mode number (less than 42 MPG) affect sales? I think yes. The Volt will be competing with the Plug in Prius, which we should get good performance data on by January 2010. Expect a highway number above 50 for the Prius, with seating for 5. If Toyota brings that baby in under $30K, and its AER is about 15 miles, Volt sales will suffer.
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+2
Oct 25th, 2009 (3:27 pm)They are banking on HCCI to make this debate outdated. I am salivating for diesel-like efficiency without all the crap you need to make sure a diesel engine is clean.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (3:47 pm)The technology is good enough today. The technology was good enough 10 years ago.
The problem is mass production of large format batteries (lithium or NimH). Judging by all the battery factories ramping up in Japan and China, this will come fairly quickly. All we really need is for patent snagging/lobbying oil companies and “let’s keep making money the way we always have” giant car companies to step aside.
GM needs to either produce an affordable electric car, or get the eff out of the way.
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+1
Oct 25th, 2009 (4:06 pm)Yes, this whole discussion boils down to whether a Fox reporter or GM’s chief Volt engineer knows more about the car. I’m gonna go with Andrew Farah and his view that mpg will not appreciably differ from 50. Our own “expert” Rooster calculates above a value of 42.1 mpg at 70 miles per hour. Probably about right, but aero losses are much less at 55 or 60 and will get the number up much closer to 50. I think I could live with 46 or 47. Especially since it would only matter to me about 15 time per year.
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+1
Oct 25th, 2009 (4:23 pm)Well, remember the Volt 1.0 will be a FlexFuel engine, so it will already handle any ethanol mix up to 85%. And all the new hot research on renewable biosynfuels is directed toward producing liquids that are chemically “identical” to existing gasoline. Volt 1.0 already meets your fuel requirements. And the biggest trick to achieve efficiency is to operate the ICE in a “sweet spot” rather than varying rpm. Let the battery smooth out the ups and downs. The real issue is driver expectations of “feel”. And that is where all the software devel is probably going. And why Andrew Farah wants the engine to be dead silent. If you have no noise, you have almost no feel issues, and you can optimize behavior strictly for fuel economy. And close to 50 can happen. Yes, a purpose built ICE could help, a little. But I hope they put almost all of their development dollars into batteries. That is where the real economic and performance gains will come.
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+1
Oct 25th, 2009 (4:27 pm)HCCI is perfect for a range extender.. you dont have to worry about the driveability issues. Maybe it will be used in Volt II, the Voltatron.
The issue with HCCI is the diesel-like clatter noise and problems running at light loads. Perhaps GM should just concentrate in lowering the cost of batteries, they are already pretty good but too expensive.
Did you know the typical model airplane engine is HCCI?.. and it runs on methanol. It is also being replaced by electric power.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (4:32 pm)One gas crisis with odd-even days for you to buy gas would make the Volt very competitive.. and lets not talk about $5 a gallon gas.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (4:44 pm)Re: New Comment Format
It’s better than 1.0 but not 2.0, IMO. I know there is lot of differing opinion on this but the loss of in depth discussion is big. The shortcoming most often made with 2.0 was the time involved with catching up on posts. This was a legitimate complaint and it was very time consuming to catch up on the new comments that were made since the last time a post was viewed. If the software allows for it, I believe the nested format in conjunction with a recent comment feature would be ideal.
A recent comment feature could be as simple as an area that lists or links the post’s 10 most recent comments similar to the recent comments section on the home screen. This would combine the nested functionality with the convenience of quickly viewing the recent comments. Best of both worlds.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (5:06 pm)While there are certainly some variables that are not fully defined, we do know enough about the technologies involved to make reasonable assumptions for these not completely defined variables. Remember GM has said numerous times and Tony Posawatz
reiterates in the interview that the Volt wil achieve 40 miles AER on the EPA highway cycle. They have also been consistant in saying that the CD mode uses a max of 8kwh. This clearly defines the amount of energy that is required by the Volt for the EPA highway cycle. The ICE will have to be run at less than 30% efficiency for the Volt to achieve less than 40mpg on the EPA highway cycle in CS mode. I’m confident GM can do better than this.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (5:23 pm)Yes. Volt purchasers will be attracted by 40 miles AER, with ICE backup when needed. The exact details of ICE performance will be unimportant for most buyers because they will see it as a backup system, with its most important attribute being that it is there, built-in, and ready to go if needed.
Considering my own situation, I hope to never use the ICE, but I’d like for it to be present “just in case”. Exact mileage in CS mode is not very important to me because I will rarely use it anyway. I think my outlook will be fairly typical for people who buy a Volt.
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+1
Oct 25th, 2009 (6:20 pm)Sounds good to me…
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Oct 25th, 2009 (6:37 pm)After having seen the Volt up close for a total of about 5 hours. The Volt has more of a BMW m3 feel than a Civic in comparison. And the Volt out classes the Prius by a huge margin. The Volt interior looks wide and comfortable. The four individual leather seats really look good. Below are comparison specs and also a side by side image of the BMW with the Volt.
BMW m3
Wheelbase 108.7″
Exterior length 180.4″
Exterior body width 71.5″
Exterior height 55.7″
MSRP: $54,850
____________________________________
Civic
Wheelbase 104.3 ”
Length 177.3
Width 69
Height 56.3
MSRP: $15,300 – $25,190
____________________________________
Volt
Wheelbase 105.7
Length 177
Width 70.8
Height 56.3
MSRP: $32,000-$33,000 (w/ $7500 tax credit)
http://garfwod.250free.com/volt%20%20bmw%20comparison.jpg
=D~
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+1
Oct 25th, 2009 (6:48 pm)40 miles electric plus (8x) 42 MPG ICE gives 376 miles total range. A range of over 320 miles should work for nearly everyone. I routinely top off at about 250 miles.
=D~
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Oct 25th, 2009 (6:58 pm)Yup, improvements have been made, and the Prius is much more efficient. However the characteristics, if not the configuration are similar.
I find the Prius transmission somewhat funky. Then I do find the preselect transmission my Belarus a joy. Most people find that thing real funky and confusing…
Still do not know what the losses in the Prius transmission are..
/There must be a better way.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:05 pm)The Ampera website referred to above gives the fuel economy as 1.6 l/100 km. This translates to 380.75 mi/usg. Obviously whoever did the Ampera website simply took the “380 mpg” figure at face value, without realizing the significance.
So we still don’t have anything official about the CS mileage.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:06 pm)Agreed. People often just posted at the point where they could be the highest in the list.
If you want a nice train of thought, why not just go to the forums where not only is the train of thought preserved but the debate can go on for weeks?
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:06 pm)The most energy efficent crash in history.
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/10/23/not-good-tesla-roadster-toyota-prius-and-vw-touareg-meet-with/#
Take Care
Arch
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Oct 25th, 2009 (8:11 pm)http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/10/tesla-totalled/
Take Care
Arch
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-2
Oct 25th, 2009 (8:23 pm)They are about 15%, from a study done on 2004 Prius.. not including electrical losses. The hotter the oil in the transaxle the lower the friction from the thinner oil.. the oil is also used to cool/lubricate the motor and generator in the Prius. Note that not all the power driving the wheels goes thru the “transmission” at hwy speeds. By comparison, the electrical path losses in the Volt will be 80%.. and that is being generous and assuming 95% efficiency for every step in the energy chain.
You can google the pdf report, search for ORNL/TM-2004/247
“Evaluation of 2004 Toyota Prius Hybrid Electric Drive System Interim Report” , Oak Ridge National Labs.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:47 pm)Sounds like the Volt was pretty much at the top of Pikes Peak before the gas turbine kicked in and then recovered most of the charge on the way back down.
I’m still unclear how the recovery mode works. Is it a combination of coasting and braking or both. I wonder just how much the car would get on a series of hills ? Would it be about the same as on the flat ?
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:57 pm)It can happen both ways, normally the regen will start working when you let your foot off the gas pedal.. this will slow the car down but slowly, probably will take a block or so. This mode, the default for the Volt, simulates how a car with an automatic transmission would react. The second mode is a stronger form of regen, usable if your are going downhill on a mountain.. similar to engine braking. This is selected by using the shift lever.
Third mode is by stepping on the brakes, the harder you step on the brake the more regen is used.. in a panic stop the friction brakes would engage automatically. A Volt should have a very long brake life, probably the life of the car.
We dont know how N in the shift selector will work, probably the regen will be shut off and the car will just coast down the road.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:59 pm)Thanks Herm.
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Oct 25th, 2009 (9:59 pm)“Though Fox as a result of the interview reports“Chevy Volt to Get 32 MPG?” Posawatz seems to clearly state it will be more than that.”
Does anyone need any more proof that Fox News makes stuff up for their “news” casts?
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Oct 25th, 2009 (11:31 pm)I don’t think GM is doing anything much in the way of battery research other than testing other manufacturers and assembling the cells into battery packs. They just want to outsource them because they’ll never be able to compete with dozens of heavy weight electronics companies and universities like LG, A123, MIT, Stanford, Hitachi, Panasonic, Toshiba, Sony, NEC, who knows who all.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (1:23 am)There are two reasons a hybrid has advantages even at highway speed.
The first is engine size. A straight mechanical drive requires an engine big enough for the peak power. The hybrid requires an ICE sized for average power. This means that at the flat highway power requirement, the hybrid engine is running farther up it’s power range where it is more efficient.
The second is that the hybrid has an advantage when you add hills and curves where the regeneration can capture power.
Those two should be able to counterbalance the extra losses and put the volt in the same ballpark of a similar size car.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (1:49 am)The ULSD is pretty much orderless. Last summer I purchased a tank full of older LSD and I forgot just how bad diesel used to stink.
I’ve gotten the new stuff on my hands and the odor wasn’t detectable after washing my hands. Long ago in the days of 2000 PPM diesel I would have still stunk the next day.
“Dont forget the noise and vibration.”
You need to listen to a new Audi or Volkswagen diesel. They have neither.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (1:49 am)I’m hoping for 50+ mpg…. but i just have one question that i havn’t seem to have seen the answer to. The 40 miles all electric is that just city or just highway or both or does it require a signifigant amount of regenerative breaking in order to achive 40 miles? And if not, if you drive stop and go in the city will you be able to go more then 40 miles on one charge without the ICE?
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Oct 26th, 2009 (1:52 am)That’s already the case for the Prius. I know a Toyota dealership mechanic and he’s stated that he’s never seen a Prius that needed a brake job, including Prius taxis he’s worked on.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (4:44 am)Low rolling resistance tires. An interesting article.
…about 80 to 88% of the energy in a vehicle’s gas tank is wasted in various thermal, frictional, and standby losses in the…
http://www.greenseal.org/resources/reports/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pdf
=D~
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Oct 26th, 2009 (5:17 am)Lyle,
I like this new format.
I hope the Volt gets way more than 32 MPG.
This car is going to cost a fortune with no return on investment
from a monetary standpoint. I hope the MPG is very high.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (7:52 am)Let’s actually pay attention to what Posawatz said. He basically told us nothing. He stated it will be better than the best conventional cars so that means better than 32 mpg and that it maybe slightly less or slightly more than todays hybrids. From his comments we know that Yaris is the best combined gas millage in the US so that is 32 mpg at the bottom of the range and that the Toyota Prius is the top of the range at 50 mpg. If we read more into his comments he basically said it could be a little less than current hybrids or slightly more. I again find folks hearing what they want to hear and basically GM bash again. Pay attention to what the person actually says. This car is definitely going to get above 32 miles to the gallon. From the comments I would assume it is slightly below Prius or slightly better.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (8:19 am)No, you didn’t own such a car. The first model year for the Cimarron was 1982.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (9:41 am)As a re-badged J-Car it was never really a Cadillac either. But, Dan’s point remains the valid. Performance, at least on HWY miles, has not made very great leaps. My heavier 2000 Buick does nearly as well on the HWY.
I will be pleasantly surprised by any number over 40 mpg in CS mode.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (10:56 am)32mpg isn’t very impressive. I haven’t seriously considered any car that gets under 40mpg for any purpose since about 2005. Remember that the Volt needs to be an upgrade from a 50mpg Toyota Prius (for us anyway). Yes, running on electric most of the time will be a hugely awesome thing — but it would a tradeoff rather than an upgrade to replace our 50mpg car with a 32mpg car — when we go on a roadtrip, it’s usually 10+ hours, so the dead-battery efficiency really does matter to us. Also, at $40k it would be harder to sell a tradeoff (rather than an upgrade) to wife, who is sympathetic to my efficiency fixation — but, in her words, “not crazy”.
The other vehicle that may need upgrading in the next few years is my 1998 Ford Ranger. It can get up to 25mpg in normal driving, and anything that gets worse mileage than my existing rust-bucket is off the list without any further consideration. I don’t drive the Ranger much, so it can last another 5-10 years if it has to — but I would like to upgrade to a 4wd compact pickup truck with better gas mileage, alternative fuel capability, and something interesting under the hood. So far, that Mahindra compact diesel pickup truck (which should be on the market in the USA any day now) looks like the only option for improvement.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (11:03 am)Interesting report and video, Lyle. Good job. Keep up the good work.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (11:51 am)I didn’t bother to read Dan’s entire post. I rarely do. It’s rarely worth the time. However, if you’re correctly interpreting his note, he’s right. Highway mileage hasn’t changed much. My 1982 (yes, ‘82) Cavalier managed over 40mpg on the highway (I measured a tank at 44mpg on one occasion and quite a few over 40) and I wasn’t diddling along at 55mph, either.
However, that car was a) extremely light and b) had a tiny engine with low power output (68hp when new) and c) reasonably aerodynamic with a small cross-section.
Engine efficiency remains pretty much unchanged and the variables where the Cavalier scored well are mostly what drive highway fuel economy.
Simple physics wins.
I have to wonder if Dan bought that car new or if he bought it used, years later, and that’s why he didn’t correctly remember the model year.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (1:54 pm)1.6L/100km? What’s that, less than 1/2 gal/60 miles? Works for me!
I have to agree with those who have said that, if the Volt gets less than 50 mpg in range extender mode, it is going to be a very tough sell at the price. Bragging rights are very important.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (1:57 pm)” My 1982 (yes, ‘82) Cavalier managed over 40mpg on the highway (I measured a tank at 44mpg on one occasion and quite a few over 40) and I wasn’t diddling along at 55mph, either.”
My experience is the same, I bought a 1986 Buick Century with a 150 hp 4 banger and got 36 MPG highway (with one and only one tank measured at 40.) So to state my position, if the Volt range extended highway mileage is less than 42, then the Plug-in Prius, if its highway mileage is over 50 will cut into the Volt sales, i.e folks who rack up mostly range extended miles.
Say the Volt gets 30 miles on the battery at highway speed, AC on, the Prius gets 15. Then at 65 miles, the Prius has burned one gallon, and the Volt has burned almost one gallon. After that, the Prius walks away with the lower fuel consumption.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (2:17 pm)#1. Your personal experience is your personal experience and is not directly comparable to EPA testing for a new car.
For example, if I go to Fueleconomy.gov, the most efficient 1984 Cavalier is rated at 33 HWY on the new EPA testing schedule.
My car will acchieve 32-33 HWY miles in comparison to my post 2008 EPA testing of 26 HWY. Does that mean my car is more fuel efficient than one the EPA tests today at 30 HWY? Probably not.
#2.
Lets take a look at that 33 HWY 1982 Cavalier.
Cross Sectional Area= 66×52 = 3432 in^2
Curb Wieght = 2359 Lbs
A 2010 Malibu gets the same 33 HWY on an EPA test
Cross Sectional Area = 3998 in^2
Curb Wieght = 3415 (Min)
So for an increase of 17% Frontal Area and Wieght of 45% the HWY mileage on the same test is around the same….
Add in much longer exterior skin, pollution controls that emit 1/100 of the real pollution (based on EPA guidelines not actual emission levels) and its fairly clear that engine Efficieny has actual -increased- significantly over the past 30 years. If we take a modern 4 cyclinder low displacement engine and put it back in that Cavalier, its EPA tested efficieny would be significantly higher.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (3:28 pm)I just saw the following on greencarcongress.com, referring to a company that’s developing a serial-hybrid conversion:
“ALTe already has Gen 1 proof-of-concept systems running in a Crown Vic taxi equipped with a 20 kWh Li-ion battery pack. In the Crown Victoria, the proof of concept powertrain conversion systems improve fuel economy from 80%-200% from the base 4.6L V8: from 14 mpg to up to 43 mpg, depending on vehicle use.”
43 mpg out of a converted Crown Vic? Very interesting… although it just occurred to me that might be analogous to the fantastical “230 mpg” figure in including the electric component.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (4:02 pm)Some calculations for my 42-mile commute:
Volt EREV Prius plug-in
Electric mode 40 mi 12.5 mi Volt wins
Fuel mode 2 mi 29.5 mi Volt wins
Fuel mode MPG* 30 mpg 50 mpg Prius wins
Gallons used 0.066 gal 0.59 gal Volt wins
Average MPG 636 71 Volt wins
Cost @$3/gal 20 cents $1.77 Volt wins
As this example shows, Volt’s fuel-mode mileage just doesn’t matter statistically.
If you want a Volt vs. Prius non-statistic, Prius uses nine (9) times more fuel in this commute.
Further, Prius uses E10 (10% ethanol or regular gas) and Volt uses E85 (85% ethanol). Prius uses 0.531 gallons foreign oil vs. Volt’s 0.0099 gallons. Prius therefore uses greater than 50 times more foreign oil than Volt.
* cs mode mpg is estimated as neither car exists yet.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (6:04 pm)So for commutes of less than the AER of the Prius, the Prius wins, and for Commutes greater than what the Volt can travel on one gallon of gas (say 65 miles) the Prius wins, but for commutes within that range (say 15 to 65) the Volt wins.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (7:12 pm)It was a typo. Have been putting in very long hours lately with the higher seminar demand. I ought to just post toward the end of the thread with smaller posts until I can get caught up. That three days off at the end of Sept for the Renewable Energy Roundup has really set me back too far.
Thanks for the support.
Dan.
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Oct 26th, 2009 (8:36 pm)His personal experience likely did not involve E10 either. ( 5 to 10% decrease in mpg)
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Oct 26th, 2009 (8:51 pm)#114 Add,
I do, however, think that getting the weight off new car designs is one of the lowest hanging fruits available in the quest for better mpg.
More ‘Aluminum’ would be better, don’t you think, ‘Steel’?
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Oct 26th, 2009 (9:32 pm)I, for one, am very happy with the ‘new’ old system back. The nested quote system just took up too much of my time to follow.
LJGTVWOTR
HAS Plug? HAVE sale. HPHS
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Oct 26th, 2009 (9:56 pm)I should have said similar size hybrid car. Like a non-plug-in Prius, for example. My point is that the serial drivetrain is less efficient than a mechanical drivetrain when driving down the highway.
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Oct 27th, 2009 (7:11 am)Yes, another J-Car with fuel economy numbers not much different from vehicles today.
I think the model year you harp on is a an extremely irrelevant point. I think we can say that while MPG has remained fairly stable for most cars since the 1980s.
At least it appears they are getting a bit more work out of them. Displacement certainly seems to be on a downward trend for a greater percentage of the passenger car fleet. That could explain the relatively flat trajectory of MPG.
I think we would have to step backward to the days of the horsepower race of the late 60s to see MPG fall like a stone or even be a consideration.
I don’t think MPG should be the overriding consideration even now. The compromises necessary to go beyond 60-MPG simply aren’t worth it for the types of vehicles people will need (or want).
Give me a means to minimize oil use and provide local energy (ethanol or electrons) to break the stranglehold oil has on transport and I’m golden.
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Oct 29th, 2009 (4:05 pm)I knew that 50mpg was bogus from day one.
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Nov 1st, 2009 (9:51 am)Im here to tell you i have a Toyota Echo. I commute 110 miles every day and gas milage is everything and cost is too. I have a stick, two door, with cruse added and i get 40 mpg day in and day out the cost of my vehicle new was 12600$ that included a 100,000 bumper to bumper warentee!!! At the time i was doing the math on preius and insight. by the time ya pay two times as much and would have to replace the batterys atleast once by now my echo is still cheaper to operate than any hybrd! Im hoping that the automanufactures wake up!! as to milage and cost. I would love to buy a new volt or two but the cost and the milage has to be within the realm of a normal person. If i had an extra 40 grand id buy a vett not an every day driver!!! Food for thought … Id love to have an electric car that is capeable of 70mph and have a crusing range of 300 miles and only cost 20,ooo$$$$
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