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Electrical Infrastructure and the Chevy Volt
People often grumble when GM raises the idea of getting the electric grid infrastructure ready in anticipation of the Chevy Volt’s launch. Since charging the Volt is like running two plasma screen TVs at night, what’s the fuss? I had the chance to ask that question and others of Britta Gross who is GM’s direct of infrastructure development. Today at 4PM EDT you can ask her your own questions as well when she joins Mark Duvall, director of the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), in the live chatbox below.
If there is excess capacity at night and we are going to charge our cars at night, and studies show there is plenty of capacity, why are we so worried about infrastructure?
We’re really not. But there will come a day when there are millions of vehicles and the road and we want to make sure we’ve anticipated correctly what that will mean. It’s not those low numbers in the thousands were worried about.
Although at night there is capacity, there will be people charging during the day. There is a lot of excess grid capacity even during the day too, for many months of the year.
It comes down to about a dozen days a year, mostly during hot summer day afternoons from four to six PMs and for a few places very cold mornings when they get close to their peak power-generating capacity. And so even if low numbers of vehicles are charging at that time, we care about what that might mean for the grid.
So we want to make sure everything is thought through, that we have the right smarts on the vehicle and the right smarts on the grid and the utilities to be able to communicate with the vehicles to simply delay charging if it happens to be at a peak time. Consumers might agree to let utilities delay their charging in exchange for lower rates.
For people to benefit from this won’t they need a special variable rate meter?
Yes, time of use metering.
If someone doesn’t have one of these meters they can’t benefit from delaying charging, so how will you educate people?
That’s exactly the dialog we’re working on. Utilities are growing right now and evolving. I have a list of things I want them to consider doing in their states to help make the transition to electric cars smoother.
Historically people buy cars on how they look, behave and cost, and now you’re throwing in a fourth variable, and it seems having to educate people more deeply might make it harder to make a sale?
And for that reason I don’t want to overcomplicate it. I think we’ve learned a lesson in the last 12 months. When people ask me about public charging I say its a ‘nice to have’ but not a ‘must have’. The vehicle has been designed to plug into standard outlets. So it’s as simple as finding a plug. We want to go the extra mile and consider the needs of apartment-dwellers or people who want to extend their range and charge at work. We are going to look at some ways of enticing corporations to allow employee charging at work.
Also keep in mind the average cost of electricity is 10 cents per kwh so for most people without off peak considerations it will cost 80 cents per day to drive 40 miles. We’d like to get that to 40 cents, but never lose site of how easy the basics are.
145 Responses to “Electrical Infrastructure and the Chevy Volt”
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October 20th, 2009 at 7:39 am
I for one will be charging at home and at work ($0.21 / kWhr.).
My daily commute is 35 miles each way.
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October 20th, 2009 at 7:41 am
Britta has some good points, the amount of oversupply of electricity generated at night is enough to take care of a huge number of electric vehicles but some of us are going to try to top off the battery during the day occasionally, and in places like California that will be a tough challenge for the power companies.
Also, it seems likely that the power companies will NEED to go to higher electricity rates in the day time, there is just about no more effective way to discourage peak demand and to encourage more efficient appliances. Electricity is a bargain now, hence the 80 cents for 40 miles driving quote, but if the price goes up in the daytime and down in the night time, (hopefully) there will be huge incentives to either use less or to supply your own juice, even if in small amounts at peak load times.
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October 20th, 2009 at 7:47 am
A daily one way commute of 35 miles is PERFECT for the volt if you can charge at work. Why will it cost you so much to charge at work (0.21 kw/hr)? I’m hoping to get a night rate of 0.05 at home and hoping corporations will let their employees charge for free at work during the day (if not peak air conditioning) to show what great corporate citizens they are (Big companies can boast they let their employees charge for free to encourage green etc. ).
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October 20th, 2009 at 7:49 am
North of Atlanta I get electricity through Sawnee and they don’t appear to offer variable meters. Here is the fee schedule for residential:
RATE-MONTHLY
Base Charge – Single Phase @ $11.85 per month
Base Charge – Three Phase @ $19.05 per month
First 500 kWh per month @ $ .0767 per kWh
Next 500 kWh per month @ $ .0736 per kWh
Over 1,000 kWh per month
(For Usage Months October-May) @ $ .0540 per kWh
(For Usage Months June-September) @ $ .0860 per kWh
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October 20th, 2009 at 7:54 am
The $0.21/kWhr. is what I pay for electricity, here in the Northeast (day or night). One of the most expensive in the country. I really need a small wind turbine…been looking into it. The wife’s not to keen on having a wind mill, but I figure before long I’ll be able to install a small one on the roof. Maybe after 10 years I can use my “depleted” volt battery for storage.
I won’t have to pay for the electricity here at work, my company will provide it as a benefit.
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October 20th, 2009 at 7:57 am
Lyle asks If there is excess capacity at night and we are going to charge our cars at night, and studies show there is plenty of capacity, why are we so worried about infrastructure?
Response: We’re really not. But there will come a day when there are millions of vehicles and the road and we want to make sure we’ve anticipated correctly what that will mean. It’s not those low numbers in the thousands were worried about.
————-
An excellent question with a confusing response. Not worried now, but soon will be worried? There’s not a problem, but soon there might be one? Rather than strengthening the case for autos with electricity over petrol, this no-but-yes sequence seems like a way to make people feel vaguely uneasy about getting an electric car without ever knowing exactly what the problem is. People will already have enough anxiety about shifting to something so new. But you do have to get an inspection of your house? Is that to be sure your house doesn’t burn down? And you might be the one overloading the grid? Will all my neighbors blame me if there’s a blackout?
I don’t think gm is doing this right. People are going to answer the above by saying “Let’s just stick with what we know works, and ICE is cheaper anyway.”
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October 20th, 2009 at 8:04 am
I’d hope your utilitiy will get you a meter with a night rate so you can charge for .05 at night.
Regarding wind turbine:
Maybe you can share cost of small wind project with some neighbors. .21/kWhr is outrageous. If you live in a class 3 wind area your costs for electricity would be .03/.04 kWhr. If you can get your utility company to buy your electricity you can make money when your car is not at home charging.
http://windwire.blogspot.com/2009/04/cost-of-energy-for-small-wind-projects.html
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October 20th, 2009 at 8:13 am
David K,
I recommend you consider buying one of the verticle axis wind turbines from Helix Wind:
http://www.helixwind.com/en/
These handle crosswinds and other turbulance situations when locating wind turbines close to homes, trees or other structures.
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October 20th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Necessity is the mother of invention, so when all these plug-in hybrids and BEV’s start showing up, other entrepreneurs are going to provide solutions (for a small fee of course). Market forces will prevail.
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October 20th, 2009 at 8:17 am
GM is rightly worried about bad publicity when the inevitable bad articles come out blaming the Volt about brownouts and rolling blackouts. GM has to make some effort to prevent it, this is a cheap way to do it and time-of-day metering is actually beneficial to everyone.
Thus you get the mixed message.
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October 20th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Looks good , so far .
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October 20th, 2009 at 8:31 am
That’s an excellent point, RB. That can certainly be perceived as a big negative for a LOT of people. Especially people out in the country perhaps. Plus, we haven’t even started talking about electric co-ops. I agree that GM is going about this all wrong. They need to spin this into a POSITIVE experience, and take a page out of Honda’s marketing department with their ‘in home charging unit.’ Kinda make the charging station a fun product in and of itself, correlating it to the ipod-like center stack maybe???? It would be a central point of discussion at the house if a neighber stopped in, say when the wife takes the Volt down the road to pick up milk and bread!!!
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October 20th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Herm
I think this is a minor problem for the Volt type vehicle but can become a major one for any BEV in the world of car buyers. With the rolling brownouts a Volt owner will be a bit upset while the BEV owner will be stranded.
The problem for GM and the Volt is educating the customer base of the differences between the two types of vehicles.
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October 20th, 2009 at 8:47 am
I agree. The utility companies are smart enough to figure out what to do as demand slowly increases. You don’t see refrigerator companies or water heater companies trying to schmooze utility companies into “getting ready” for their products. I wonder why GM never worked with the oil companies to get them to lower their prices for their truck and SUV owners.
I guess GM does not feel the same way, they are worried that they’ll make a great car in the Volt, and then the utility companies will start raising their rates as people start buying more and more and Volt owners will be saying “here we go again, just like gas prices”. Not everyone can buy solar panels and wind turbine generators. GM knows that the money they can charge for the Volt is loosely correlated to the cost savings of buying electricity instead of gasoline to power the vehicle.
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October 20th, 2009 at 8:54 am
I believe you’re comments are “spot on.”
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:03 am
In reality, it won’t be the utilities raising prices, it will be the government raising energy taxes. Right now, the government makes 5X as much as the oil companies’ profit from the sale of petroleum products. As petroleum is displaced, the government will seek a new source of revenue, which will be a consumption tax, whether you own the panels / turbines or not.
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:08 am
I don’t see the big deal, but, I am in an area where there are rarely brown/black outs due to grid meltdown. (Now storms, that’s a different story.)
GM is right to be concerned in high-risk areas such as California and the East Coast. Any negative publicity would be devastating to this nascent technology.
GM should move quickly to build a voltec utility vehicle that is grid-friendly. I for one, would love to have a SUV/SUT/PU that could run my house in case of a blackout. A stand-alone 43Kw generator is around $15k in my area. I could justify paying that as a premium over a standard truck.
Can you imagine the great publicity when 15000 GM trucks from Dallas go down to the gulf coast and run things while the next hurricane cleanup is going on?
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:18 am
Well we see a cultural shock here, in France the government is trying to prepare the way, see : http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1036372_french-government-reveals-14-commandments-to-live-by-intended-to-make-country-worldwide-ev-leader
Regards to all,
JC NPNS
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Today, the general public may be unaware of the charging options available for the VOLT. Many of the early adopters ARE AWARE of the benefits of a higher power home charging station, and I have no doubt most of them will have it added to their purchase contract.
By the time “there will come a day when there are millions of (EREV)vehicles and the road” I’m sure the masses will be up to speed.
It took years before most homes in America saw the need and benefit of a personal PC computer. America is still having growing pains with High-Definition TV. Maybe everyone wants that too, but they can’t afford it yet. Same is true for VOLT high-speed charging stations.
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Jason M. Hendler
You are spot on. It won’t take the government long when they see revenues decreasing for road taxes. In fact here in Texas their revenues are way down because people are not driving as much now.
It’s going to be like PPV TV. We will be taxed on the amount of miles we drive each year.I know it’s too much to ask, but I hope they are fair and equable in their assements with these charges.
This is going to be very interesting to see how all this plays out.
Have a Great Day,
God Bless America
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:26 am
RB,
Keep in mind that Ms. Gross holds a technical position at GM. She’s not in Public Relations or Marketing. I’m sure the Marketing folks at GM will put their spin on it eventually.
IMO, we’re fortunate to get an inside look at some of the issues GM is addressing before they get a PR makeover for public consumption. Lyle has access to technical people at GM – as part of the Volt project – who wouldn’t traditionally be made available. As part of this transparency, we’re going to hear points of view that would usually only be heard internally at GM. I appreciate the insight so I’m not going to criticize them for not delivering the message with enough spin.
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:26 am
and the Volt has this nice, mobile, with built-in safe fuel tank, 50kw generator just begging to be used.. it even has a buffer battery to handle up to 150kw surges. Have you ever seen a generator that quiet and even offers a catalytic converter?
You think they would be able to keep up with the demand if GM offered this option?
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:42 am
People will already have enough anxiety about shifting to something so new. But you do have to get an inspection of your house? Is that to be sure your house doesn’t burn down? And you might be the one overloading the grid? Will all my neighbors blame me if there’s a blackout?
———————————————-
Too many old houses that do not meet code. A friend had an older small house (fuse box)…I doubt it could handle another large appliance like the Volt. Also fuses would blow occasionally for some unknown reason (probably loose or corroded connections).
I could see the Volt (or any large appliance) getting blamed for an electrical incident there. Since the Volt will be the new tech and large appliance, it would be under more suspicion…like the new kid at school. Not good press…
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:48 am
______________________________________________________
Lyle Said:
“People often grumble when GM raises the idea of getting the electric grid infrastructure ready in anticipation of the Chevy Volt’s launch…”
————
I am one of those individuals that have in the past grumbled when GM talks about addressing the electric grid infrastructure with regards to the education/build-out required to support Electric Cars. My view has been that if Electric Cars are made, the grid infrastructure will naturally follow…no need to prepare in advance. I still hold that belief although I have somewhat softened on my stance insomuch that my recent readings of the challenges Electric Car adoption originally faced (early 1900s) does for me lead credence that there is benefit in the Electric Utilities joining in with Car Makers in the initial push to publicly support/promote the benefits of Electric Cars.
Much has changed since the early 1900s with regards to American Car Makers, America’s Electric Grid system, communications (advent of the Internet), and America’s increasing National Security/Economic reliance of foreign sourced energy. But it does serve us all well to learn from the challenges Electric Car adoption faced in the past to help us consider/anticipate today’s challenges:
“…The fundamental reasons why the electric car has not attained the popularity it deserves are (1) The failure of the manufacturers to properly educate the general public regarding the wonderful utility of the electric; (2) The failure of [power companies] to make it easy to own and operate the electric by an adequate distribution of charging and boosting stations. The early electrics of limited speed, range and utility produced popular impressions which still exist…” This quoted paragraph was originally published in 1916.
Source Document:
Electrical world, Volume 67, Part 2, Page 1236 Published: 1916.
Article Title: Electric Vehicle Sessions
Note: To get to the article, enter page “1236” (at the page box at top of web page where you see page “3” already inserted) then press your “Enter/Return” key.
http://books.google.com/books?id=SKkvAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Other Electric Car references in the above linked publication I found worth reading:
Ampere-Hour Meter Applied to Gas-Electric Car: page 1062
Edward S. Mansfield, the new chairman of the Electric Vehicle Section, Edison Electric of Boston “I believe the electric vehicle is going to succeed. There has been a great deal of a sort of half-enthusiasm among a good any of the members…”: page 1215
Co-operative Electric Vehicle Advertisement: Pg 1426 (bottom right corner)
Electric Vehicles Selling Well in Small Towns: page 1497
______________________________________________________
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:49 am
I’ve looked into these. Seems like the way to go, but still not quite cost effective in CNY. I would install one anyway, but my town is very against any sort of windmills in suburban areas, including the helix. I know of a couple people who have wanted to install a helix and couldn’t get approval from the town. It’s too bad.
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Jason you are going to get lynched if you keep making inconvenient statements like the above.
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Dave K, let me know which wind turbine you decide on.
I want one too, but my wife is also not too keen on it.
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Some news i saw with GM india
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2009/10/19/stories/2009101950870200.htm
$10000 EV from GM
and cruze station wagon : http://indianautosblog.com/2009/10/chevrolet-cruze-station-wagon
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:02 am
The argument should be presented as an environmental concern.
Sometimes, town officials are made up of incredibly unknowable people. I suspect my town would do the same here in Connecticut.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:03 am
I think that long term the right answer is to add solar panels on the roof. Then, charging the Volt becomes power neutral.
Solar panel costs are going down in cost, but just not quite enough yet. IMHO, once you can get the installed price under $10K, then it will make sense and I will have them installed on the roof…..
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:03 am
There’s already a line, if they care to wait their turn …
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:06 am
That’s not much of an incentive to save electricity! The more you use, the cheaper it is!
I know a lot of commodities have decreasing unit prices with increasing volume, but in my area we actually get “excessive usage” charges for electricity if we go over some KWH per month. This seems like a good thing, so long as there’s a provision to opt into time-of-day metering for applications such as the Volt.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Depends on who is writing the tax laws. If Libertarians are writing them, then they will only attribute the direct costs required to support energy infrastructure and development in the tax. If leftists are writing them, then they will invent programs to “help” people and apply those costs into the tax.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:14 am
An unfortunate truth.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:22 am
CaffeineBuzz:
Well said. Thanks. +1
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Electricity is cheap to make, the cost we are paying for is having excess capacity for peak demand. Electric cars should bring down utility rates because it will help them level the load.
If Electric Rates don’t go down because of electric cars (once there are millions of them charging at night), then something is very wrong.
The key is to have a way to keep cars from charging during peak times and that is easy.
1) Cheap rates at night
2) Expensive rates during the day (and higher day rates during peak AC season).
The average homemaker will learn to dry their clothes and run the dishwasher in the morning or evening instead of the afternoon when it is 100 degrees outside.
And if you plug your car in at work, it is easy for future charge stations to shutoff from noon to 4pm during hot days.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Sawnee operates through much, though not all, of the area north of Atlanta. Georgia Power does have a program which allows the utility to delay starting of A/C compressors at peak times; I’m not really up on everything they offer, or pricing; though I’ve been told that it’s lower than many other parts of the country (also live north of the city, in Cobb County. How ya liken’ N Fulton, Bob?).
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:29 am
What’s with the headlamp assembly on the Black VOLT in the photo? It appears to house ‘projector’ type lighting…
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:33 am
old man:
Good points. I agree. Public charging infrastructure may not be a life or death requirement for a Volt owner, but I can see how it could be very handy from time to time. If I could plug in while shopping, or going to a movie, and save a bit more gas, so much the better.
Our family is not quite ready for a BEV but, as a society, we will all be better off when some brave souls do take the plunge/risk. So encouraging this infrastructure is in our common interest, IMHO.
And the smarter the grid gets, the better off we will all be in the long run. Tom Friedman made this point very well in “Hot, Flat, and Crowded”, IMHO.
So all credit to GM for trying to get out ahead of the curve.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:33 am
An engine which is run regularly anyway is superior to one that sits unused in a corner of your garage for months at a time (picture yourself half frozen in the dark, fumbling with starting fluid and breaking your back with a stubborn pull-starter, or trying to jump off the generator’s small starter battery).
We’ve discussed the idea of using the Volt as an AC emergency generator, and concluded that while it might be relatively easy to do from an engineering standpoint (the motor’s controller could be made to produce 60 Hz with software; a manual crossover switch would disable the motor and enable an output port), GM percieves it to be a liability nightmare.
I hope they change their minds.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:34 am
And of course the government will find a way to tax electric cars for money to fix the roads. They may do it by how much the cars are charged or who knows.
But the key is to use Capitalism (supply/demand) to make these things work.
1) Cheap elec rates at night
2) higher rates during the day
3) even higher rates during peak AC months.
Then the consumer will level the electric loads on their own, and electric prices will go down.
They should have done this everywhere even without electric cars. But remember most electric companies don’t have competition, so if they have to build more power plants then they need to cover peak demand, their just making more money, higher rates and more revenue.
They can level off demand by just adjusting their rates during the day. And with millions of electric cars this will bring down rates.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:39 am
I hate to say it, but when I did some math for yesterday’s post on Coskata’s E85 project, the impact on petroleum sales is even more dramatic – an E85 powered VOLT would save over 96% of the imported petroleum used by an ICE car averaging 40 mpg over 15,000 miles of annual use. This highlights the potential loss of petroleum tax revenue…. Here is a copy of my post:
3. Coskata’s developments are excellent news and GM’s investment in them is very smart. Taken together with the development of the EREV VOLT, we are significantly closer to watching those Middle Eastern Sheiks shriek in financial pain!
Do some math: if the VOLT gets true 40 mpg in extended range mode, and you drive 30% of the time in extended range mode, over a year of 15,000 miles you will drive about 4,500 in ER. You would use approx 112 gallons of petroleum. (Math = 15,000 *30% / 40 = 112.5 gallons)
Now, instead, fill up with E85. Even if your ER fuel economy drops by 20% to 32mpg, if you drive the same 30% of 15,000 miles in ER, you would reduce foreign petroleum use to only 21 gallons! (Math = 15,000 * 30% / 32 = 140.625 * 15% petroleum content = 21.09 gallons)
So, if you compare a VOLT running on E85 to a non-E85 capable small car with an ICE getting great 40 mpg average over 15,000 miles of driving, the E85 VOLT saves a whopping 94% foreign petroleum use! (Math = 15,000 / 40 = 375 gallons vs. 21 gallons for an E85 VOLT!).
One more huge plus for Coskata’s technology – if it was smoke and mirrors, they would have done an IPO based on their ‘white paper’ and cashed in. The fact that they’ve built a working smaller scale facility speaks volumes for their optimism.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:42 am
I agree on all points. I want charging opportunities everywhere I travel but that is quite a ways out IMHO.
I want off oil and that is why I will buy a Volt even tho I know it will NOT save me money over an ICE vehicle UNLESS the cost of oil really goes thru the roof.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Credit to GM for staying out in front of this issue. Sure, with the anticipated first or second year sales of VOLT – even coupled with other early EV’s coming to market – there is adequate supply in the current grid.
However, the tipping point is not overall capacity, but rather when one more hot summer day is added to the ‘power alert’ status; or one more cold winter morning is added. The concern for the grid comes in at the current fringes of peak use – not overall capacity. So if GM is able to raise the flag now, ahead of the curve, all the better for the future of EV’s in the USA.
In reality, it is likely much easier to have this public dialogue on the power grid subject PRIOR to the onslaught of EV’s on the retail market. Once consumers begin driving EV’s, and the charging works, people will be less inclined to listen. Now is the time to begin planning and acting – before the demand hits!
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:50 am
It’ll have to be a small one (1kW). We live in a development with only a little more than 1 acre of land. We’re right on the edge of a 2-3 wind rating, but at an elevation of 800 ft. and the wind blows fairly often.
http://www.windenergy.com/documents/spec_sheets/3-CMLT-1339-01_Air_X_Spec.pdf
This one here looks a little strange…
http://www.urbangreenenergy.com/turbine.php?id=14
Not the most ideal conditions for a wind turbine, but I think it’s better than solar, until we can get less expensive systems. Besides, I think a system that provides electrical power at night is better for me…no one is home during the day.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Jason
I think the Gov will get their road tax money from GPS tracking the miles we drive and sending us a bill. I don’t think they will care where we drive but just the number of miles. However STATES may need to know how many miles we drove in their states to collect the money for their roads.
They have no choice in my opinion as we all expect and need good roads and we users should be the ones paying for them.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:52 am
If our government is serious about vehicle electrification (and they’ve said as much), EV owners should not be taxed for road maintenance, at least not in the beginning. To prevent undue suffering on the part of local governments losing gas tax revenue, the fed should offer a stipend program based on the number of EVs in a municipality.
Remember, at first (and even for a decade after Volt’s wheels hit the showroom floor), we’re talking about an insignificant displacement of gasoline. When things start to ramp up for EVs later in the century, you can be sure this issue will be revisited.
Theoretically, technology already allows an owner to track vehicle use precisely by time, distance and location (government need only make the in-car devices required mandatory, and track usage ostensively for tax purposes). Yes, that will open up a huge can of worms in the area of privacy and freedom, but I don’t see how our grandchildren (or maybe children) will avoid it.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Jackson, I think you’re exactly right about it being “relatively easy” to turn the Volt into a 50kW AC generator / inverter; and that GM is afraid to touch it.
In situations like this people will start doing “conversion kits” to modify your Volt – just like people started making plug-in conversions long before any car company started selling them as a standard product.
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Infrastructure enhancement for EVs is in the “it would be nice” category for the Volt, but for pure BEVs it is vital. For GM to expend any effort at all into beefing up infrastructure (beyond liability and perception issues in houses), is to bolster it’s primary competition.
This “shoot ourselves in the foot” thinking kind of reminds me of the old GM we have come to know, but not so much love.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:02 am
This one is easy.
$0.01 / kWhr road tax.
$0.01 / kWhr national health care tax.
$0.01 / kWhr supplemental social security tax.
=D~
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:03 am
OFF TOPIC, but perhaps of interest; Toyota has unveiled it’s plug-in Prius officially:
http://behindthewheelnews.toyota.com/?id=252&cid=77-B9-00-20-96-63-15-C5-BF-EB-91-2E-ED-26-7E-B8&mid=EA-C3-6E-28-BD-36-75-95-4A-7E-D0-90-1C-6D-29-89&fname=J%20Jackson&siteid=DMG_em_200910_RLA_btw_SegB&url=feature_text#
ON TOPIC: Should gas displacement by hybrids be compensated for in terms of lost road maintenance taxes from burning less gas? If you said “Yes” for the plug-in Prius, would you say “No” for the regular Prius?. If you say “No” for a BEV, do you say “Yes” for a Volt?” Where should the line be drawn, and on what basis? It seems like the gas tax issue get pretty muddy for a vehicle using both electricity and gasoline.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:10 am
“In situations like this people will start doing “conversion kits” to modify your Volt “
… and GM will be certain to void any warranties for the use of any such kit.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Jackson
Have faith, Gov will come up with a way of getting the needed tax money for roads.
But for now the hybreds and plugin vehicles will get a tax discount regarding miles driven in EV mode.
If EV starts selling like I expect them to, then GPS for all such cars and a prorated tax on miles driven in EV mode will be accessed.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Have you read this article from this morning as it fits this discussion.
Roy
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10378778-54.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Available at about the same time as Volt (for most of us):
http://news.dow.com/dow_news/corporate/2009/20091005b.htm
The more solar that gets installed in your area, the less likely it is that day charging your Volt will cause a grid overload. Solar on your neighbor’s roof will at least displace load at the highest peak time; early to mid-afternoon.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:49 am
The Urban Green Energy turbine looked fine to me. Helix wind has a few models that look very similar, in addition to their corkscrew turbine.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:51 am
I noticed that too. Could they be using those dang expensive HID thangs? I don’t like them. Too complicated. The current bulbs are fine. HID requires a balast type voltage converter then you also need the special HID lamps. What ever happened to KISS?
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:53 am
States will likely install toll booths to ensure their cut, or just read your vehicle’s odometer when you renew the registration.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:57 am
If we want a tax to support healthcare, then I propose a consumption tax on food. If you eat, then you need to pay for your likely consumption of healthcare as well. Big cities already have sales taxes to pay for emergency rooms, etc., so this isn’t new. I like a food tax, because everyone in this country pays, citizens and foreigners alike. You could even tax unhealthy foods more than healthy ones. Campbell’s Tomato soup would have very slight tax, while a McDonald’s Big Mac would have a bigger tax.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:58 am
I am tempted to make two observations in response to this article:
1)
It’s ironic to me that the people most likely to want an electric car are also the ones with the weakest infrastructure (PGE official is voicing concerns about peak load burdens of EV charging; this utility serves much if not all of California).
2)
If the power utilities invest in their own battery-intensive infrastructure (think tractor-trailer size Sodium Sulfur batteries), eventually the grid could be sized to provide average power requirements rather than the highest expected peak power requirements. Large-format batteries are already being tested for load-levelling intermittent power sources such as wind turbines.
It takes some imagination to picture the scope of this ’storage grid.’ In effect, the entire grid would be turned into a Volt; with the ability to store off-peak power itself to meet peak demands (rather than the current state of business which requires smaller, less efficient generators to be switched on during the daytime to bolster electrical demand. This would mean only the largest, most efficient power plants need be kept in service).
What if your local substation included some giant batteries which take over during interruption or high peak demands? What if you had less-giant batteries inside your house?:
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Ceramatec’s_Sodium_Sulfur_Battery
I’m under no illusions as to the time scales required to accomplish a full-sized storage grid; given a crash-program mentality it would still take decades (and most utilities don’t seem that interested at the moment).
…You may say I’m a dreamer …
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
It’s already in the works – it’s called Cap & Trade. It will start small with electric utilities getting an 85% ‘exemption ‘ for CO2. Then guess what happens? Yeah first they get buy-in from dishonest CEOs who are licking their chops at the increased revenue and then they lower the boom on all of us.
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
… um, HID lamps use less electricity. I’d prefer LEDs for simplicity, but the costing at present for real LED headlights is unreasonable.
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Unni:
Thanks for the very interesting links. +1. It sounds like GM’s product line in India is way ahead of same in the U.S. Cruze introduced in October, 2009? Go figure. And how about the electric Spark? And how about the tour of the Cruze factory in China?
“This may not be the end of the world, but you can see it from here.”
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
We’re basically in agreement, see my comment at #9.
Where we may disagree is that this would be yet another area where citizens surrender privacy to the Government. Don’t think that any such system won’t eventually be used for purposes other than taxation.
I would hope that in addition to gps derived location and distance info, the weight (and/or number of axles) of the vehicle will be considered when assessing tax fees. It would be good if there were a discount for use of approved energy sources (which will bolster the overall goal of less Petroleum / cleaner environment), but that is probably a forlorn hope.
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
I have a way around each of those.
If you would like the solution, send cash or money order to:
c/o: JEC
1313 Mockingbird Lane
Translvania, XX
Have a nice day!
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
DaveK, I like the urban green one. Looks cool.
If it was cheap enough, I could line a few up along my roof top.
I have a ranch home, so I have a lot of roof area.
And I am on top of a hill with some wind usually.
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
GM likes to play the green card. It is owned by the government.
There is plenty of capacity in the ‘grid’ for many years. If future batteries turn out as well as many hope, they will be sitting in your garage soaking up the power from solar cells and windmills all day long so you can charge your car when you get home. That way you don’t need expensive new generation or billions of taxpayer dollars to upgrade the grid. The whole smart grid thing is a big con to siphon off taxpayer dollars and increase government control and influence of utilities. If the batteries turn out to be good, EVs will prosper, homeowners will gradually get off the grid and NONE of that other stuff is needed. Do we see the folly of planned economies displacing market forces?
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
old man:
I don’t know about anywhere else, but they sure don’t generate enough money from gas tax now to maintain the roads in CA, less still to build any new ones. Our roads are falling apart.
ICE drivers are subsidized now to the extent that the gas tax they pay doesn’t come near paying the cost of roads. So a little more subsidy to PHEV and BEV drivers, who at least help clear the air and cut down on oil use is fine with me.
In LA County the voters just approved a sales tax increase to fund road and transit improvements. They are collecting it now, but I sure don’t see any construction, LOL. Our total sales tax now is just a tick under 10%, which kills local brick and mortar small business. And I bet we don’t see any actual results in my lifetime.
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Do people really expect that the govt will lose road tax revenue, just because your driving an EV?
Since we know that govt spending never decreases, then they will find your money. Stop worrying about something you have no power to control.
You will pay as much, or more in taxes once you get your EV, you can count on it. (Nice, that we can at least count on one thing the govt does well!)
PS: I always give myself a +1, so that at least I feel good about myself for the 1 minute until the usual suspects apply their god given right
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Exactly…this feature was one of the primary selling points I gave my wife when I first leaned of the Volt 1 1/2 years ago…she just gave me a blank stare.
Well, maybe it will be available in Gen 2.
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Transylvania 6 5000!
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
DaveK,
Please choose a different provider. I live in CT also and have not paid the CL&P standard rate from day 1.
Follow the link and sign up for a different provider today!
http://www.ctenergyinfo.com/display_rates.htm
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Did anyone else realize that Lyle provides a method to see the username(s) of who posts a +1 or -1 on any post?
I found it VERY interesting.
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
We won’t get to gps-reported driving for awhile, so what will the tax-collectors do until then?
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
The majority of utility companies do not have off-peak rates, yet their biggest challenge is to keep the 60HZ steady during off-peak hours because of the lack of load on the system. Go figure. With enough public pressure these utility companies might be swayed into offering off-peak rates…….I know that’s asking a lot of them, reducing rates, how dare I. The Las Vegas rate is right around $0.09/kwh, day or night, so GM’s numbers will work for me.
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October 20th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
For anyone who really wants to use the Volt as an emergency power source, here’s what you need to get.
First from ~400VDC to 336VDC you need to step it down via a DC-DC converter: http://www.metricmind.com/dcdc.htm
I suggest you step down to 24VDC output
Second, you need to use an inverter to generate a pure sine. I say pure sine because not everything runs efficiient on a “modified sine wave”
http://www.theresourcestore.ca/proddetail.php?prod=TR3624-120-60
I suggest you pick one that uses a 24VDC input. You can find any “pure sine” inverter anywhere from 1KVA to House power KVA.
Then all you have to do is connect them together. The output of the dc-dc converter to the input of the inverter.
The hard part is going to be getting to the neg and pos of either the battpack or genset. Technically the hard part is making it look like you didn’t get to it.
Why two steps?
1: Because a 400VDC inverter cost a sh|tload of $$$, if you can find one.
2: The separate DC-DC converter allows you to scale your KVA desires/wants. Just scale both proportionately.
3: The separate inverter allows you to interchange or scale down in KVA depending on your desires/wants. Just scale both proportionately.
But don’t be tricked into buying a cheaper “modified sine” inverter.
There, now you all know what you need to do and buy to power your home in an emergency.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Have you checked how much Toyota’s is? I was in their service area at the dealers and some dude came in asking about it and it cost the guy over $300 for one side. WTF?
I could be wrong so can anyone chime in on this?
I’m all for LED as well….
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Yeah, they’ll get their hands in your pocket some how. I agree.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Would you believe raise gas tax. I don’t like it but see no other way.
The reason I don’t like is the less well off will be paying that tax for us
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Don’t worry about people not having special variable rate meters. Everybody is going to get one because it saves money for the power companies (they can fire all the meter readers) and can also help them make more money on the same power by being able to charge more when people actually use power and less when nobody does. Our public utilities commission (CA) believes them when they say these are revenue-neutral changes since they claim that if you used a constant amount of power all day and night your rate would be the same. In reality they will make many more millions for the exact same amount of power they are currently selling. So, you WILL get a special meter, soon. Check your power company’s website. All of PG&E will have new meters installed by 2012. My area is slated for late 2010.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Noel
California is in deep trouble over many problems. I do not live there any longer and have not for about 30 years. But from the news it sounds like over the past decade or more they have been taxing their business out of business or at least out of state to Navada’s benifit. Fewer good jobs has IMHO resulted in less driving and hense less tax collected.
I DO NOT KNOW THIS TO BE FACT but I have little trust of Gov weather state or fed to not use gas tax money other than on roads.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Jackson,
GM will be building BEVs in the future as well. EREV is a stepping stone in that direction. I don’t believe that getting out in front of the grid will be a bad thing for GM at all.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
CaptJack–you are correct sir!!! HID’s are BIG TIME expensive–$300 for one side is cheap, especially for a Toyota. Some of the Lincolns, Lexus, Benzs, Mercedes, etc….get to be in the THOUSANDS per side. I agree, LED should be the way to go…..
As you pointed out as well, even the balasts get to be some coin–better rob the treasure chest……..
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
This was a reply to Jason M. Hendler, but it ended down here instead, go back a couple of comments.
And if the right wing is writing the bill, well they’ll just ignore it and want a tax break.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Or course, but the automotive after-market industry is huge! If only 1/10 of 1% of people would buy an AC generator mod for their electric vehicle then the potential market could still be thousands – plenty enough to keep a small company going.
On the other hand, people keep mentioning the potential profit to be made by letting electric vehicles supply power back to the grid during peak demand. This could go mainstream sooner rather than later.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
The government already has the data they need to charge the correct use tax. They require an inspection once a year and part of that inspection is to note the mileage. Merely subtract last year’s number from this year’s and voila! Slap that tax on as part of the inspection fee.
Go get a Vehix report sometime. Very interesting data out there in the public domain.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Dude, we’re in more than deep trouble. It’s more like…
Up the creek with no paddle to the falls…
In a flat spin out to sea…..
Hog tied and bent over and King Kong with a bottle of Viagra….
Whatever the cliche, we’re sooooo screwed.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
I didn’t know this.
How do you check?
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
California needs several nuclear power plants.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
I can’t understand why people support an increase in sales taxes to support roads but oppose an increase in the gas tax for the same purpose.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
This is a great solution for offsetting the EV charging, looking at wind turbines for months on end, decided on this technology, quiet by design, and the wife actually likes it….this company is involved in motorsports and energy, including EV charging stations, got through the homeowners association, which I couldn’t do with a prop system. It’s called Natura Levo, found it on Renewable PowerTech got to wait 6-8 months for it though. Now rthe question is, do I want to be a buyer of the first generation electric vehicle/battery or wait and see if the ultra capacitor technology comes to fruition.
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October 20th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Greg Simpson:
Yeah, me neither. I didn’t vote for the SOB, you can bet on that. We run a retail business in SoCal. When people have to pay 9.75% sales tax, they have a STRONG incentive to order stuff from out of state over the internet and not pay the tax. This just kills the local brick and mortar stores, and everyone who makes a living therefrom. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
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October 20th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
DaveP:
I hear you. It sure makes me nervous.
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October 20th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
OnCor is doing the same thing in my area, but, they are charging us for the dang meters! BS. It’s a three-year-rollout. Done by 12/31/2012.
They made a mistake and ordered the wrong meters from the supplier, so, now they want to charge us for those as well! BS.
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October 20th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Capt,
Are you saying that the genset runs at high voltage (~400vdc)?
I was thinking more of by-passing the battery and just using the genset for emergency. I was also thinking that the genset was already sine wave (AC) since the traction motor is AC.
Isn’t it really an alternator, not a generator?
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October 20th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
This is the more interesting article:
GM connects Chevy Volt to OnStar EV Lab
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10378583-54.html?tag=mncol;posts
As we speculated a couple of weeks ago, OnStar is probably going to be integrated more closely with Volt than any other car thus far.
Cool graph about gathering data from current ICE users for Volt planning.
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October 20th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Those taxes will be passed straight through to consumers, so utilities won’t feel a thing.
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October 20th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Reps are buy and large Libertarians and recognize the necessity of usage taxes. If people use the roads then they need to pay for them, but they wouldn’t charge one cent more than intended for the roads.
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October 20th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Technically all alternators are sine wave. The Genset will produce a sine wave BUT in order for the AC motor controller to be able to use energy from both the Batt pack and Genset, they both have to be DC (fyi, it’s cheaper and easier to go from AC to DC than it is to go DC to AC). Unless there’s some power electronics in there that will take in the AC from the genset. The Genset will go through a full wave bridge rectifier and some DC ripple filters to eventually get a clean DC power from it.
The traction motor will get power from the controller, this means the controller will create a three phase AC output that’s varied by the controller and pulls power from either the batt pack or genset.
The genset will need to produce more than ~336VDC at some amperage in order for it to put electrons into the batt pack. In order for current to flow into the batt pack, the voltage applied to the batt pack must be greater. So if the batt pack is 336VDC you need at least 340VDC to get a good draw into the batt pack. To get a higher current draw rate just keep increaseing the voltage from the genset.
“I was thinking more of by-passing the battery and just using the genset for emergency”
That’s possible too but you’ll have to make sure the batt pack has been drained to the point you need to be in CS mode. How to “trick” it into CS mode is an unknown……for now.
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October 20th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Hey, where’s my buddy Dirty Dawg Rob……aka “MuddyRoverRob”?
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October 20th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
The cruze is already out. I was talking to my brother over long distance and he told he didnt see one on road yet.
The fun part is there is no gas version, its only diesel 2.0 ltr engine and 5 speed manual.
web:
http://www.chevycruze.in/
I think the Electric spark may be a make over of REVA.
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October 20th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Of course the government will raise taxes! How else can they afford to exist? And what would we do without the government? My god, man! If we don’t have a government… we’ll be lost! We’ll have no guidance! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!
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October 20th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
I thought a “sin tax” on food has already been proposed and dropped. Oh, well. Can you imagine the tax on a large popcorn (with the simulated-butter-like-substance) at the movie theaters?! I recall a news report that said eating one of those is the same as 8 Big Macs. And, if it’s $5.00 a bag now — it will go to $8.00 easily.
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October 20th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
5:04
Britta Gross: 5:00 [CaptJackSparrow] –
To Britta Gross or anyone… “We do plan to collect a lot more battery system information from the Volt OnStar gives us the ability to not only collect data (with consumer consent) but also communicate this information back to the consumer. We think this is a great feature consumers will want to have, especially with the early technology. ” Exactly what is the “great feature” consumers will get?
5:04
Britta Gross: What’s the great feature? Awareness of and confidence in the technology. Remember how everyone liked the screens in hybrids? This is the next generation. Early adopters are going to care.
———————————————————————————
Umm….
For $43,000.00, I shouldn’t have to be “Aware” of the going on’s in the car unless it’s breaking down, it better be aware of itself AND it’s technology.
I don’t really think the screen stuff is much to brag about. Sure there will probably some cute/neat stuff, but what happened to KISS?
I jus wanna drive the car and it be reliable. Too much “stuff”.
OK Britta Gross, I’m ol fashioned, what can I say.
KISS’s 2 ya!!!
Nuttin but luv girlfriend….
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October 20th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
I’m not so sure that a rooftop VAWT is the way to go.
The main issue is that you’ve got to get it up into the good wind, which is usually at least 50′ above your roof — maybe more if there are trees around the house.
If you folks are really interested in these issues, I recommend subscribing to Home Power Magazine:
http://www.homepower.com
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October 20th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
lol….
OK, someone was reading over my shoulders and said….
“But what if I don’t know anything about the techie car or cars in general, what good is that data?”
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October 20th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
$0,05/kWhr where I live… yup we love that green hydro power
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October 20th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
CaptJack, 4:14 pm:
Amen!
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October 20th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Big Brother Is Watching.
I guess I can live with it, but it does make one a bit uneasy.
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October 20th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Herm,
I was thinking about this very issue the other day and have a solution.
GM can/should make the Volt charge between 10 PM –> 2 PM only unless when exiting the vehile you tell it to “charge right away”. Or maybe, since I am sure it will have a Electronic Time System, ensure proper charging based on the Month (IE, avoid peak summer, spring, winter times) which must be over-ridden each time you leave the car.
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October 20th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
A few things
#1. Pumped Hydro Storage is very effective, and could (should) be used significantly more in areas such as California
#2. I am fairly sure PG&E is the worst power provider in California and has some of the oldest/weakest tranmission lines. Thanks in large part to thier selling off almost all of the generator capacity… they are probably worried that electrical prices on the free-market will rise and cut into thier bottom line.
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October 20th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
tom,
“But the key is to use Capitalism (supply/demand) to make these things work.
1) Cheap elec rates at night
2) higher rates during the day
3) even higher rates during peak AC months.”
That’s not capitalism, that is rewriting utility regulations.
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October 20th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
FLASH,
“That’s an excellent point, RB. That can certainly be perceived as a big negative for a LOT of people. Especially people out in the country perhaps. Plus, we haven’t even started talking about electric co-ops. I agree that GM is going about this all wrong. They need to spin this into a POSITIVE experience, and take a page out of Honda’s marketing department with their ‘in home charging unit.’ ”
_________________________
Do you have a link to this – Honda’s marketing department with their ‘in home charging unit.’?
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October 20th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Noel Park,
when the meters go in I’ll do every thing I can to save energy, install solar and get better rates for selling power back to them. Then the meters will be great for getting paid for the power I produce.
Some one said that the power companies were trying to make us pay for the new meters. We are the “customers”, we have always paid for the meters. When the houses were built the builders paid for hook-up fees and meters and that’s part of the sale price of every grid connected house. Every customer pays for this, even apartments are charged for this and the fees are paid back in rents. New meters? = new fees!
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October 20th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
It is possible to divert 2 of the 3 outputs of the main traction inverter to generate that 220vac 60hz waveform (even tri-phase is possible).. the inverter probably runs at a much higher frequency than 60 hz so some filtering would have to be done to remove the harmonics and get a fairly pure sine wave. So all that it would take would be a pair of heavy duty relays and some filters, probably not too expensive or hard for GM to do.
The hardest part is for GM to avoid liability.
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October 20th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20081015005194&newsLang=en
” introduction two high voltage DC-to-AC inverters with continuous output ratings of three kilowatts and five kilowatts. The high-efficiency inverters, which have an output efficiency of up to 93 percent, convert input voltages ranging from 250 to 450 volts into a nominal output voltage of 120 volts AC (60 hertz) at a continuous output current rating of 25 and 42 amperes”
“The inverters are designed for use onboard electric, hybrid electric and fuel cell vehicles to convert high voltage DC power stored in vehicle batteries to high quality AC export power.”
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October 20th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
check this out:
http://www.wayneautospa.com/
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October 20th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
I don’t believe they will be able to tax the power you generate through solar panels or wind turbines. Green contractors are already building new houses with a solar purchase option and there are advances in solar panel cells that are getting the cost down to where it is competitve with the electric companies costs. You must be paranoid about the governement taxing the generation of power on your own property. I don’t thin we will let that happen.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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October 20th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Its more likely that you will see more toll roads. Those people who use the road will pay for its maintenance. Kiss!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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October 20th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
“My view has been that if Electric Cars are made, the grid infrastructure will naturally follow…no need to prepare in advance. ”
_______________________________________________________________
There are two reasons for expediting the infrastructure for electric vehicles.
The primary reason to upgrade the electrical grid, is shift from a petroleum based society to an electric society. We need to stop using foreign oil so that we can diminish our deficit. And we need to spend those dollars on solving our internal national problems like health care, education, and employment.
However, It is not just the motor vehicle involved here, although the motor vehicle takes front and center on the issue based upon our need to end our dependence on petroleum. The ICE is the major user of petroleum, and by using electric vehicles, we can make a big impact on diminishing its use. However, the advances in electronic technology are on the verge of giving us relatively cheap energy that will impact many industries. There will still be a need for petroleum; lubricants, plastics, pharmaceutics, heavy vehicles for highway construction are but a few examples. However, the higher efficiency of the electric motor makes it the ideal motive force for all kinds of machines. The use of future generations of Volts as electric power generators in emergencies is just such an example. The Volt will not always have an Internal Combustion Engine as a backup power source. Fuel cell advancement, should they become a cheaper source of power, at some time may replace the Volt’s ICE. As technology advances are made the generator may become obsolete. the demand for modernized electric grid can not wait for the new machine to be on the market. Industrial and political organizations realize that we must move now to expedite the modernization of our electric grid. Should a global event necessitate a sudden shift immediately to electricity, we need to be prepared. The use of petroleum is so wasteful. We burn tremendous amounts of petroleum to ship the oil by ocean freighter, and consume it even in production of gasoline before we use it to power ICE.
The Petroleum companies will still be able to sell the little petroleum that can be extracted from the ground but the return of the electric car will finally reverse the tend that Ford sent us on. IMHO, solar power is the only real free energy source. As long as the Sun shines, we can attract its energy. The Sun causes air to move on our planet but the exact path of the wind determines where it can be used to generate electricity. If we lose sunlight, it will effect solar generation of power but a network of solar farms distributed across the nation can solve that problem.
The political climate in our nation is not very good at a time when we need bipartisan cooperation to solve the problem of peak oil, etc. On the table are bills to aid our nation in the use of domestic fuels ending the dependence on foreign oil. One of the most important for consideration is our nation’s electric grid. From what I see, industry and government are working diligently to solve these problems as expediently as possible.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
Interesting article Dave G, thanks for sharing. There definitely seems to be a lot of varied agendas when it comes to allowing or denying these kinds of applications.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
4:49 [Comment From JeffB ]
Has GM identified any items other than odometer miles to determine lifespan left in the Volt (or major components)? like the number of fast charges of battery pack, ICE usage hours, etc.
4:53 Britta Gross: We do plan to collect a lot more battery system information from the Volt OnStar gives us the ability to not only collect data (with consumer consent) but also communicate this information back to the consumer. We think this is a great feature consumers will want to have, especially with the early technology
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It was my question that initiated this exchange.
Next let me say Ms Gross…thanks for addressing my question. I can understand that you may have had to side step the question (if that was your intent) since a lifespan metric like the odometer has legal ramifications.
The intent was to find out if the Volt will track other lifespan metrics besides odometer miles. I’m speaking about metrics that could possibly be included in a bill of sale…or even further…the vehicle title/registration.
- ICE hours
- Number of charges of the battery pack (fast or normal)
An engine hour meter is used for farm tractors and airplanes to measure lifespan and maintenance cycles for the ICE. I’m not aware of any costly products that track number of battery charge cycles…but I would guess some have it.
Just a side note to the items that your answer did address…Personally I’m not interested in a service with a monthly bill like OnStar. OnStar has been great win for GM…I just not interested in another bill. I enjoy the pretty graphics as much as the next guy…but I would think that most people would be more interested in the HARD numbers of the lifespan metrics upon resale or a family vacation road trip.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
That is great! All of the commandments seem to be quite reasonable. There is no better country than France to adopt EVs en masse. With all of the clean nuclear power available there arguments about the environmental impact of increased power demand will be less important than, say, in Britain or the US. Indeed it is quite a culture shock that a government is actually doing something right for once.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
Quite a few argue that hydro isn’t green, but I’d strenuously disagree.
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October 21st, 2009 at 12:03 am
Thank you for the link Jean-Charles,
France already beats everyone else at reducing fossil fuel use. This will only place them even farther ahead.
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October 21st, 2009 at 12:04 am
We joke in our carpool about how we’re depriving the government of their rightful fuel taxes by 4 of us riding together.
We wonder if they’re going to try and figure out how to tax us more since we’re not paying our fair share.
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October 21st, 2009 at 12:08 am
Solar isn’t as good a match to A/C as many purport it to be.
Solar peaks at noon and is in a steep decline in output by late afternoon. It is still net generating however, and every bit shaves the peak some.
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October 21st, 2009 at 12:12 am
“I don’t know about anywhere else, but they sure don’t generate enough money from gas tax now to maintain the roads in CA, less still to build any new ones. Our roads are falling apart.”
The problem isn’t the income, its how its spent.
If the majority of the money went to direct labor and materials, California’s road system would be the best in the nation.
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October 21st, 2009 at 12:17 am
FYI, California already has massive amounts of pumped storage. In many cases its not the same units doing both functions, but by running the pumps only at night and then the generators only during the day on the aqueducts, they essentially have pumped storage.
The California water resource board doesn’t buy power, they barter it. They trade daytime power for more power during the night. That’s what runs all of those pumps keeping water going to Southern California.
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October 21st, 2009 at 12:18 am
That’s the irony of the $7,500 rebate.
Let’s subsidize you to buy the car, then figure out a new way to tax you because you have that car.
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October 21st, 2009 at 12:21 am
People already do that with the Prius. Just google Prius backup power.
You don’t want to be processing that kind of power at 24V. WAY to much current. Its far more efficient to stick to a higher voltage. When you’re after multi-kW, there are a lot of UPS units that have battery banks in the 200V range.
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October 21st, 2009 at 12:23 am
I’ve already had remote read for 3 years. Right now there isn’t an option for time of use rates… but the hardware is there now for many out there.
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October 21st, 2009 at 6:33 am
CaffeineBuzz at 9:26am Oct. 20th.
Absolutely true. Britta is extremely refreshing and concise!!
***(Lyle, Please more interviews with Britta!!).****
Complete confidence levels confer within her discourse!!
As more and more becomes confirmed over time with testing results for the thousands of concurrent tests GM performs for the Volt, these interviews become vastly more compelling and final with the information that the various technical departments can provide for us.
I’ve been increasingly missing out on participating in part due to increasing demand for shops to continue to learn ICE waveform diagnostics (12-14 hour days training techs). This is because a very significant portion of the auto repair and services industry will either adapt or begin to go out of business after several more years.
It is easy even now to discern who the “new process” prone techs are, and, sadly, who the “set process” prone techs are. (Although the “set process” techs can easily decide to be learners too if they choose.)
Several more years after that, only the diagnostically-strong will survive.
This is the last “easy to teach” year for techs to move forward. This is because of “controller area networks” will hit the untrained really hard by this time next year, and, if they have not already been proficient with waveform cross-referencing in practice for at least this next year.
Anyway, EXCEPTIONALLY COMPELLING DATA FROM BRITTA.
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THANKS GREATLY BRITTA! YOU’RE TERRIFIC!!!
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October 21st, 2009 at 7:08 am
Has anyone seen this article/video about BYD’s E6, a 5-passenger car that claims to use a non-lithium “ferrous battery”, has a range of 250 mi & recharges in an hour using a cord about the size of a firehose?
Fantasy or not, it’s worth a look…… http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8315947.stm
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October 21st, 2009 at 9:29 am
Enviros are sometimes quite blind. Rain falling, and running into rivers, and piling up behind damns is obviously “renewable” It is just that they recognize there are warts with hydro, but do not understand that is true with any system. Being technically ignorant, they do NOT recognize the warts with wind and solar.
Well I would argue that wind and solar are pollution pigs.
Solar alters the Albedo and its tiny efficiency of 10-12% results in vast amounts of “Thermal pollution”. The Albedo reduction can be as much as 31% and amount to as much as a few hundred watts per square meter, over their area; while GHGs are fortunate to alter the energy transmission by a thousandth of a single watt per square meter. Its Something you would hardly want to do, if you were a member of Al Gore’s Global Warming revival Druidism.
Wind is Mother Nature’s way of equalizing temperature differentials in conformance to the Laws of Thermodynamics . To the degree that you suck energy from the wind, you are thwarting that task and storing up later even more severe attempts by Nature to accomplish that need. So suck your wind energy, and to hell with your neighbor’s house (and maybe yours) getting destroyed in the more severe winds and tornadoes that WILL perforce occur more frequently.
Have a nice day!
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October 21st, 2009 at 9:51 am
I concur with your observation that I too “want Off Oil”. But I never say never.
I want Off Oil within the era of the Oil “Price” Crisis of the past thirty five years of nationalized cartel monopoly. When Oil behaves like any other market commodity and bears some reflection to the cost of production with a normal profit once again, as it used to do, pre-1973, I will be happy to drive with .06 cent /KWh or .06 cent Oil energy equivalent.
Some of you don’t even recognize that those days are coming, as surely as rain falls to the Earth.
I can’t wait until the Oil Sheiks and Commissars are begging everyone or anyone to buy their Oil at any price. Please, Please, Pretty Please! Business men may want a profit, but it takes the politicians who Nationalized their Oil companies and turned the major Oil companies into mere servants, to be really obscene, Greedy Whores.
Until then, I will delight in telling them to Stick it where the Sun don’t shine.
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October 21st, 2009 at 10:05 am
You don’t need to “learn” anything. Why is it that Enviros always want the average person to “suffer”? It is usually accompanied with the disdain that those “Proles” are too stupid to walk and chew gum, and so their self-appointed betters (them) must think and dictate for them.
I have and had a “load shedder ” in my home in Arizona that does it for me automatically, for many years. The only complication is to provide a separate power supply for the electronic controllers in appliances like the clothes dryer and dishwasher, that reset in power off load shedding situations. Or to buy appliances with older mechanical controllers that resume where they left off in load shedding situations, but these are becoming harder to find.
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October 21st, 2009 at 10:28 am
Well I would tax your solar system as a global warming pollution pig worse than any Utility. You solar system would generate much more Global Warming than any Utility.
Or didn’t you know that solar is very inefficient; and it alters the Albedo by as much as 31% over the area of its collectors. Some 4-5 orders of magnitude, that is 10-100 thousand times, worse than the CO2 spewed from your ICEs tailpipe.
Welcome to Cap & Tax.
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October 21st, 2009 at 10:45 am
Leo K,
You got your decimal points wrong. If you drive around 15,000 miles per year, then your mileage WILL be around 400 mpge in a VOLT.
15,000miles/365days/year = 41.096 miles per day. Less 40 miles per day electric driving = 1.096 miles per day fossils power. 1.096 mpd x 365 days = 400 miles of fossil powered driving per year. 400m/50 mpg = 8 gallons of fossil fuel. Double or triple it it because over the year you Will probably take a few longer trips than 41.096 miles in a day.
If you want to substitute E85 for the 8-30 gallons of fuel you will probably use each year, thats ok too.
The VOLT IS a Game Changer!
The ICEage is ending. Embrace the VOLTage!
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October 21st, 2009 at 10:55 am
nasaman,
Do you believe in the tooth fairy too? BYD sold under 100 electric cars in the past two years and received some forty lawsuits for their clunkers, from “satisfied” customers.
What makes you think that these clowns are any different today? Because Warren Buffet, the investor proud that he is technically ignorant, and boasts never invests in technological companies, violated his rule and put a bundle into them?
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October 21st, 2009 at 1:14 pm
There is a great unrecognized benefit to come from the Electrification of Ground Transport. It is the out sized cleanup of US electrical generation that that coming will cause.
The Green movement is always running into the Law of Unintended Consequences.
The anti- Nuke movement of the 70s and 80s, killed many nuclear plants that were meant to retire lots of very dirty and antiquated base-load coal plants. When the nukes were killed, the Utilities had no choice but to let these superannuated and very antiquated coal plants to continue to run and belch pollution.
In addition the nutty greens populating the Carter Administration passed a law that said if you do anything but he most minor of operational fixes then you have to put in the most extravagant of pollution controls. So the Utilities didn’t do a damn thing to these old antiques but run them while they continued to belch pollution.
Then the goofy Greens started with their wind and solar nonsense; both of which are NOT base-load generation, with their intermittent and unreliable generation. Thus forcing even more resort onto these old smokers.
Electric cars and their new power demands will fatten Utilities pockets and force them to build new base-load power plants. Any modern coal plant Will have good pollution controls. The new passive and perfected LWR nuclear plants will be, and are being, ordered in great numbers. These are air pollution free. When both or either come on-line, we can, finally (!!), retire an out sized number of these old pollution belching antiques.
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October 21st, 2009 at 3:08 pm
GM should talk to the USGBC (US Green Building Counsel) about the possibility of having adding outlets in the parking lot as one of the items that earn points towards LEED certification for commercial buildings =)
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October 21st, 2009 at 4:22 pm
I’ll do the responsible thing — recharge the Volt battery during night time hours. If I plug it in, for example, at 6:00 pm it is OK with me if the actual recharging starts somewhat later as long as it is completed by 6:00 am the next morning. And, I dare say that most people on this forum will do the same thing.
Having said the previous, it is well to remember that some people work unusual hours and will need the flexibility to recharge their Volt battery during periods of high demand on the grid. Most of us have exceptions to our normal routine that may require us to recharge the Volt battery at unusual times. For these and many other reasons, I really don’t want the government getting involved in setting hours for recharging.
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October 21st, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Also check out http://www.skystreamenergy.com/
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October 21st, 2009 at 9:44 pm
“You solar system would generate much more Global Warming than any Utility. ”
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Where did you get that idea? Do to the following link for answer to that question.
http://askville.amazon.com/solar-panels-Earth-retain-heat/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=5919445
Utilities using coal, natural gas, and petroleum based fules all pollute the atmosphere far more than solar panels. The various answers on the link address several of your comments, like the efficiency of solar cells. Technological advancements are approaching 50%-60% in laboratories and in a short time mass produced solar arrays will be less costly than traditional ways of generating power at the utilities.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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