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Q&A With the CEO of Compact Power Inc.

October 19th, 2009 | Posted in: Battery, Original GM-Volt Interviews

Prabakhar Patil is the CEO of Compact Power Inc. CPI is a subsidiary for LG Chem, the Korean company that was awarded with the Chevy Volt cell supplier contract. CPI helped GM to develop the packs for the Volt. I had a chance to interview Dr. Patil on the current status of the relationship and operations.

Where are things with respect to pack development and considering GM’s announcement about in house pack and your relationship with them?
The relationship is good and unchanged because the decision for GM to manufacture the pack in-house after they got into volume production had been made some time ago. We agreed to it in the spirit of partnership because for strategic reasons it was important for GM to do this in house, even though we were prepared to support them in high volume production.

Right now nothing has really changed. As you know we shipped around 50 packs last year, this year we are shipping around 400 packs and that continues to happen. We are validating the pack design, the manufacturing process etc, and these are the prototype packs that are going into GM vehicles. That part is exactly the same as it would have been were we to make the high volume production packs.

So the prototype packs are currently being produced at your facility?
Yes, and they will continue to be made here until GM’s facility is up and running.

Are you helping GM to prepare their facility?
We work together. It’s a joint team that is actually at work.

As a subdivision of LG Chem, will you continue to work in GM’s facility?
No, once the production moves to their facility our role will be more supportive.

LG Chem got a $150 million DOE grant for setting up a cell manufacturing facility that will be locating in Michigan?
As you know, up to now the cells are made in Korea and we assemble, engineer, design and manufacture the pack here. The DOE grant is targeted at making the cells here. That has always been our plans and our footprint but this helps expedite the process.

So you are going to build a US battery factory from the ground up with that money?
Yes.

When will you start construction?
We probably will complete the site selection process by the end of this year and then we’ll be breaking ground sometime next year. We have to go through all the permits and site preparation and all that stuff. More importantly in terms of production, the first of the cell lines in that new facility we expect to come on in production rates by second quarter of 2012. It will be fully done with all of the cell lines and electrode lines and all that stuff a year later. At that point, it will be capable of producing enough cells to support anywhere from 50,000 to 250,000 vehicle packs depending on how many cells the packs contain.

Is that factory going to solely be used for the Volt pack or might it be used for other automakers?
It is not tied to a single application or customer, that’s part of the flexibility that we will have that it can support different applications. Because as you know the cells for the Volt will initially come from Korea. In fact, that cell line is already up. It has to be in order for us to have certified cells that have to be ready well ahead of the vehicle launch so GM can go ahead with the pack validation and so forth.

That cell line is already up. That will be used to supply cells for the Volt until the cell line here comes on line, so we have a lot of flexibility.
As far as GM or any other customer is concerned they won’t be able to tell the difference as to whether the cell is made here or in Korea.

The cells for the Volt, are they pretty much going to be a standard LG automotive cell for all applications or are you developing differently nuanced cells for different applications?
There have to be different nuances. For example, if you go from a non plugin hybrid to a BEV there are three discrete types of cells that you need. On plugin HEV like hybrids, the power to energy ratio is high, because those hybrid configurations don’t need large pure electric range.

On the other end of the spectrum the battery electric vehicle where the energy density requirements are very significant when you get to 50 or 100 miles of range. The P to E ratio in that case is relatively low then. Plug in HEV cells like the Volt are in between in order for the cells to be optimized we have to tweak the chemistry or the recipe.

Posted by: Lyle

50 Responses to “Q&A With the CEO of Compact Power Inc.”

+6 Herm Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 10:08 am

I like this guy, he seems to shoot from the hip.. it seems the LG plant in Michigan will be fairly independent and able to build batteries from the ground up. He calls it a GM plant but who will own it?

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+5 MarkinWI Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 10:16 am

I appreciate the clarification that CPI’s DOE grant will fund a separate facility. Interesting that they will also be placing that facility in Michigan as well (or am I reading between the lines too much?). Hopefully, the Upper Great Lakes region can develop some synergies with battery technologies. We could use a “Silicon Valley.”

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+2 Noel Park Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 10:30 am

While all of this progress is clearly good news, it sort of begs the question which has been asked so many times with regard to GM’s manufacturing plans. There have to be many unused manufacturing plants in MI. Why can’t they adaptively reuse one of them?

I guess it boils down to who is going to give them the best package of incentives and tax breaks, but still it sem a shame to build a greenfield facility when so many are sitting derelict.

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Noel Park Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 10:31 am

BTW, with Tagamet on walkabout, I am trying to take up the slack, and post:

LJGTVWOTR!!

at least once a day. If I forget, cover for me, OK?

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+1 Mike-o-Matic Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 10:34 am

Cover for you, covering for Tag? OK, but somebody’s gotta cover for me, I’m not here as much as I used to be.

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+1 omnimoeish Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 10:36 am

I’m curious if the small production numbers of the Volt in 2010 and 2011 are due to battery supply bottlenecks, or if GM is keeping production artificially low just to make sure there aren’t any insanely expensive recalls.

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+11 Sheltonjr Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 10:37 am

“As far as GM or any other customer is concerned they won’t be able to tell the difference as to whether the cell is made here or in Korea.”

One important difference is that the cells will be stamped “Made in the USA”

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Jackson Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 10:37 am

“On plugin HEV like hybrids, the power to energy ratio is high, because those hybrid configurations don’t need large pure electric range.

“On the other end of the spectrum the battery electric vehicle where the energy density requirements are very significant when you get to 50 or 100 miles of range. The P to E ratio in that case is relatively low then. Plug in HEV cells like the Volt are in between…”

… So no one at LG has yet actively considered using a small bank of the high power to energy ratio cells for regeneration and drive power averaging, together with a large bank of the “relatively low” power to energy ratio cells used purely as a storage bank.

Maybe tweaking something “in between” for Volt is no more expensive, at this point, than “tweaking” for a “plug-in HEV like hybrid” or BEV; but as Li/Ion technologies get more advanced, I’d expect there to be a cost and performance benefit to segregating the cell type by functionality.

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+5 Gsned57 Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 10:38 am

“As far as GM or any other customer is concerned they won’t be able to tell the difference as to whether the cell is made here or in Korea.”

The one difference is going to be the Made in the USA label and that’s kind of a big deal. Any new manufacturing capacity brought to this country is a good thing in my opinion.

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+4 Gsned57 Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 10:40 am

I was typing mine and saw yours after I hit submit. +1 to you for being quick

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+5 omnimoeish Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 11:08 am

From what I understand, they are helping GM build a battery pack production facility (owned 100% by GM), and soon building their own cell production facility close by (owned 100% by LG Chem).

What’s gotta be nice for them is that they won the Volt contract, so that puts them light years ahead of all of the other battery companies who are trying to claim future EV battery market share. They also get to build their factory for free thanks to Michigan’s desperation for jobs, so they are offering tax incentives, and the $150 million in DOE grants of course. Then they are sitting right in the back yard of all 3 of the American auto makers, making them a heavy favor future contracts just because of the simplicity of commuting and low cost of battery transportation to the assembly facilities. This makes especially good sense since the US is driving the EV movement by far and away, besides maybe France. So they are right in the heart of it. They’ve had a very good year.

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+2 Streetlight Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 11:30 am

Three entities: cells from LG Korea, pack assembly by CPI-USA and validation by GM-USA – all that effort (and no wonder the battery packs cost a fortune) – for a grand 2009 production sum of 400 VOLT battery packs!!! Obviously with LG being the only ballgame in town GM’s battery facilities get high priority. What’s noteworthy is that VOLT has tested over 150 battery chemistries. Maybe there’s hope after all that a US owned&based chemistry-supplier can supplant LG’s monopoly.

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+2 Herm Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 11:39 am

Probably the second, could also be just the natural pace of building up production on a totally new model, not necessarily artificially low.

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-4 Roger Ramjet Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 11:44 am

Everyone know GM has little or no expertise with advanced batteries, excluding Lutz’s Exide vacation. The Volt is shaping up to be a true World Car.

Volt Electric Power – courtesy of fine engineers at LG South Korea

Volt Chassis – courtesy of fine engineers in Germany

Volt Engine – courtesy of fine engineers in Austria

Volt Assembly – courtesy of $14.28 /hr Union Workers in USA

Nice, don’t no about its cousin the Ampera, looks like that model is on shaky ground. Supposedly it had many parts in common with the Volt.

At least GM is spreading the work around. Good Job.

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+5 Herm Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 11:45 am

I’m sure that will be important to the people working at that plant.. but most important is that the Detroit 3 will have a somewhat guaranteed supply of cells.. you know battery manufacturers in Japan/Korea/China will always give preference to supplying their own national markets.. witness the bottleneck of batteries for the Ford hybrids and why they switched over to a French company.

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+2 Herm Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 11:52 am

LG and GM has probably carefully considered that.

Why have that complication of two sets of batteries in the supply chain?, plus the additional expense of a second inverter. Old lithium batteries needed this crutch to survive long term.

Tesla just uses a huge number of high energy (with low power) cells, but the large amount of even low power cells is enough to drive a sports car very fast… The Volt probably has more regen capacity than a Prius so everything is relative.

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+2 omnimoeish Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 11:55 am

Yeah, I think LG Chem was a good choice. I don’t know how they compared with A123’s, but from what I hear, they are about 5 years into R&D on these batteries going into the Volt and have tested them to hundreds of thousands of miles. Also, in the Q&A with Tony Pasowatz a couple of days ago, he said he expected at least 5,000 charge cycles on the first gen Volts. That’s very impressive. If you charge 7 days a week, 365 days a year, your battery should last nearly 14 years! By 2024, a 16kWh battery will sound like a what a 16MB RAM computer sounds like to us 14 years later (I got one with 16MB RAM back in 1995). Now I wouldn’t buy one with less than 2,000MB.

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+1 Herm Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 11:56 am

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Lao-tzu, The Way of Lao-tzu
Chinese philosopher (604 BC – 531 BC)

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24004.html

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+1 Noel Park Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

LOL! I’ll try, but you might not be that happy with the results, haha. “If you want the job done right, do it yourself.”

Seriously, your comments are always constructive and on point, IMHO. Stay with it.

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Noel Park Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

omnimoeish:

Yes.

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+2 JeffB Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

One can dream that electrical energy storage advances at the same rate as computer tech…it makes me think of EEStor’s claims.

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+2 CaptJackSparrow Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

Go LiMn!
Go Volt!

Go get the dang car built for US already!!!!

The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge!!!

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+1 Bearclaw Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

I wonder if their batteries can be adapted for an Insight or a Civic hybrid when those NiMH batteries are at the end of their life.

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+2 Loboc Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

It’s the batteries. It’s always the batteries. All the other parts and pieces are known entities.

Hopefully, we will get some R&D done here as well. Just assembling someone else’s design puts you in a bad situation for next-generation cells.

I read that GM is on their fifth-generation battery pack for use in the first-generation Volt. It does seem that battery generations are more like electronics generations than other manufactured goods iterations.

It will be very interesting to see the capability of actual production Volts. The Dev guys keep hinting that production will have better performance than what we have seen thus far.

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+1 Luke Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

Appearing to shoot from one’s hip is a heck of a lot better than actually doing it!

I’ve got an engineer-friend who can actually pull off the appearance of shooting from his hip… When he says “hold my beer, hey y’all watch this”, the trained observer knows that he’s already worked a sheet of equations which show whatever apparently-crazy thing he’s about to do will actually work — but people who don’t know him well think that it’s a genuine “hold my beer” moment. He’s good fun to hang out with, and he usually brings homebrew.

Drunken engineers are a lot more fun than regular drunks!

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+1 CaptJackSparrow Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 1:33 pm

each cell will look like this…
http://www.tenergybattery.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=347&category_id=21&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27

Technically you can form your own pack with these cells in any shape/form. All you’ll need after that is a BMS and a new charger. Take a look at eLition for a BMS and Manzanita or Zivan for a charger.

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+1 Luke Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

I would think that the preference for the domestic market or the foreign market would depend on the exchange rate?

If the dollar gets strong, then they have a lot more incentive to sell to us — provided we’re paying an agreed-upon price that is denominated in dollars, anyway.

Or is there some local law over there that I don’t know about?

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+2 Vegasguy Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

Whats in a name?
Is this LG part of the same as LG electronics?
Hmmm, LG used to be called Lucky Goldstar. Remember Goldstar? Known for their cheap stuff that broke all the time? Now they are considered high end? Sort of like Datsun changing their name to Nissan. Can changing a name change the product?

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+3 Herm Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

all these Japanese/Korean/Chinese battery companies have strong government support.. so when it gets critical they will support their own local needs first..or else. It may also be a matter of nationalistic pride.

Electric transportation will soon become essential to national security. Its a war without bullets but still a war.

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Herm Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

batteries dont need to improve as fast as personal computers did.. in a few short years 300 mile range BEV will be very practical and economical. Note that today the Tesla Roadster has a range of 244 miles using common laptop batteries, imagine the possibilities.

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Herm Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 1:59 pm

Ohh I would like to get my hands on a few of those cells.. any idea of the cost?

Bearclaw, there are a couple of companies doing lithium conversions on Priuses, dont know about the Civic but probably could be done.

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Loboc Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

Interesting that they tweak the cell chemistry based on the application. This means that BEV cells are different than PHEV or HEV cells.

I would think that it would be pretty difficult to replace NiMH batteries with LiFePO4 without knowing the differences. The controls may be different as well. Hand-building a replacement pack could be difficult and expensive if failed.

If I were going to replace a pack in an old hybrid, I would go to the manufacturer or go to an aftermarket source that has tested their solution. There is also the problem of disposal.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

The first link was their corporate, the one below is their store.

$64.00/cell
http://www.all-battery.com/32v20ahlifepo4lithiumironphosphaterechargeablebattery.aspx

I used 8 of their 15AH pouch style packaging for my son’s 24V scooter. It last much longer that the SLA’s. These are fairly pricey though. I’m sure there are some that are much less in price. I only bought from them because they were in Freemont CA.

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+1 Sam Y Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

Wow…that wounds like a scathing & uncalled-for lash-outs against LG

You know as well as I do that ALL Asian imports in whatever indutry they were in (automotive, electronics, etc.), were basically poor quality imitation goods. But seriously, aren’t you outdated in your thinking by about a decade or more? You gotta be kidding me + a whole lot of people if you are questioning LG or Nissan’s quality…the brands you mentioned are about the same quality or better than other well-known Asian imports like Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Samsung, etc.

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Herm Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

How are you charging them?.. conservatively I hope.. does your son suck the last little bit of power out of the cells?

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Mike-o-Matic Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 4:36 pm

Three summers ago, I bought an LG dehumidifier for my basement. It stopped functioning within a week. So did the four replacements the store gave me (OK, well, one lasted 3 or 4 weeks). Finally I gave up, got my money back, and bought elsewhere.

I try not to think about that, when I think about the Volt’s battery pack!! I hope their battery division makes better stuff than their refrigeration group.

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Herm Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

I used to buy their nimh cells way back, excellent quality, even better than sanyo…

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Dave K. Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 5:06 pm

CaptJ …. have about 140 assorted rechargeable batteries at use in my condo. Work tools, smoke detectors, camera, remotes, and RC cars and aircraft. About 100 of these are Tenergy brand. Some are 4 or 5 years old. I use a smart charger and all are fine so far.

=D~

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 5:12 pm

I use the charger Tenergy sells, 1.5A, and use the BMS/PCB 30A model they sell. The BMS/PCB only manages HVC, LVC, Over current, charge and Balance. This prevents draining past LVC so he can’t drain it all the way to kill the cells.

HVC = High Voltage Cutoff
LVC = Low voltage cutoff

It’s a pretty basic standalone pack but it works. I should probably build a case for it. Heat shrink wrap and duct tape is holding them all together……lol

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-1 Van Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 5:26 pm

A good question about the cell production facility is how is it affected by a changed cell design. We keep hearing about this break through and that nano wire goody, and how the energy density of the Lithium battery will go up from about 100 wh/kg to over 200 wh/kg. So the question is, when this second ( or n) generation cell becomes available, how hard will it be to switch over production.

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Vegasguy Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

Here is an interesting article about new window glass for cars.
http://www.detnews.com/article/20091010/AUTO01/910100321/1148/+Cool++car+rules+c%20ould+affect+radios++phones

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Jackson Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

Ideally, the high-power cells and extra inverter would become “off the shelf” for a new array of non-plug-in hybrids (assuming that advancements in power vs longevity for Li/Ion will support this). This alone would make the exercise well worth the effort. I emphasize that no currently deployable technology is capable of high-performance load-levelling with a small pack, but that may not be true for much longer.

Also, when the state of the (power) Li/Ion allows, it could allow cheaper, mainly ‘energy’ types to be used for the vast majority of the cells (used for the portion that actually gets plugged in every night), since they would no longer have to supply full performance power.

In the near term, I agree, it probably doesn’t make much sense to have two supply lines. Within 10 years of Volt sitting in a showroom, with battery supplies ramped up, research further advanced and with ever-increasing competition for the segment, this is a move I fully expect to see.

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+1 Dave G Says:
October 19th, 2009 at 8:46 pm

Let’s be clear. There are 2 things going on here:
1) Battery cell manufacturing
2) Battery pack manufacturing

The battery cells are made by LG Chem. Right now, LG is making these cells in Korea. Later on, LG has tentative plans to make these cells in Michigan. At this time, GM has no plans to make the battery cells.

The battery packs are currently being made by CPI, a subsidiary of LG Chem. Later on, GM will produce these packs at a new manufacturing plant, and CPI will help GM get this plant running.

I’ve seen this type of business arrangement before. The main company has a smaller group that makes prototypes for customers. If the customer uses the prototype design as the basis of their product, the main company sells more product, and the smaller prototype group is compensated accordingly. But in some rare cases, the customer likes the prototype design as-is, and would rather have someone else build it, so the prototype group is always somewhat prepared to do higher volume production, even if that isn’t their primary function within the company. But either way, if the prototype group causes the main group’s product sales to go up, the prototype group is well compensated. So this is CPI’s motivation.

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Vegasguy Says:
October 20th, 2009 at 1:03 am

Ultracaps power a bus !!!
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/23754/

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-1 Sean Says:
October 20th, 2009 at 4:17 am

Let me guess the battery will say made in the USA with a US flag on it am I right or am I wrong? Or do you think it will have a South Korean or North Korean flag on it then it says made in Korea just wondering?

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Dave K. Says:
October 20th, 2009 at 4:39 am

Oil rises above $80 in Asia as company earnings boosts investor confidence
4:23 am EDT, Tuesday October 20, 2009

Crude did a chin-up over $80 a barrel for the first time this year after Apple Inc. and Texas Instruments Inc. reported third quarter earnings Monday that beat analyst forecasts. Caterpillar Inc., Coca-Cola Co. and DuPont are scheduled to report later Tuesday.

=D~

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Dave K. Says:
October 20th, 2009 at 4:59 am

Very good news. Thanks for the link Vegas.

Hey Vegas, the family will be in town next month. We plan on exploring the Asian district (Spring Mountain Rd) to shop and eat. Will also catch the BBQ at Ellis Island and hit the black jack tables after midnight. Son enjoys The Fremont Street Experience. Watch for the guy with the Rio Sky Parade beads and coconut Daiquiri (in a 5 drink football, of course).

=D~

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Rashiid Amul Says:
October 20th, 2009 at 6:38 am

I’m not here as much as I used to be either.
So thanks for picking up the slack, Noel.

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tom Says:
October 20th, 2009 at 7:21 am

I really like the bus idea. Battery power for 3-5 miles is plenty if they can do a fast charge at designated bus stops.

For 30 years (since first oil embargo) I always thought the way to go was electric cars with 50 mile range, but make all limited access highways have a hot rail lane and vehicles could charge while driving.

That would work for 18 wheelers as well.

That plan would work even better in the future as our government is already planning on tracking our miles by satelite, so this way they can keep track of how much highway driving electric cars do.

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Dan Petit Says:
October 20th, 2009 at 8:48 am

Nicely concise DaveG @ 8:46pm.

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Q&A With the CEO of Compact Power Inc.

50 Responses to “Q&A With the CEO of Compact Power Inc.”

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