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Poll: Volt Will Offer a Low Power HVAC Option, Will You Choose it?
One question the Volt engineering team is often asked by journalists is how much accessory electric draw will effect the Volt’s 40 mile all electric range.
Clearly there will be an effect. During the recent 30 to 40 degree mornings I, for example, have been driving my MINI E electric car with the heat on moderately for the first time since I got the car in June. This is resulting in around a 10 to 15% decrease in range.
Conventional gas cars are able to use the heat of the gas engine to heat the car but pure electric cars and the Volt in EV mode don’t have that luxury instead having to rely on electric heating elements.
Indeed GM announced in August that using some unspecified average amount of HVAC and city driving schedule, the Volt would achieve 25 kWH/100 miles.
As was reported yesterday, a fleet of eight integration Volts are currently on a three day extended test drive which will total 1200 miles of driving.
Among many other things, engineers have been testing the HVAC and Volt engineer Andrew Farah explains how the Volt will handle this issue when he was asked how HVAC draw will affect range.
There is going to be an effect , there is no question about it. What we’re trying to do is give the customer an opportunity to decide how much they want it to have an effect.
For example, one of the things that the Volt has that other cars don’t is not only do you select what temperature you want and things like that, but you can also select if you want it to use full available power because you’re interested in being 100% comfortable 100% of the time, or whether or not you want to restrict how much power the system can use. Yes that will take a little longer to heat or cool the cabin, but again it really has to do with what the customer is interested in doing. We try to make it easy for them to make that kind of choice.
So it seems the Volt will let you dial in an economy HVAC option to extend your EV range if desired. It is also believed that the Volt will be able to programmably precondition the temperature of its cabin while plugged-in, using grid energy, therefore requiring less energy from the battery once driving begins.
So what are the priorities of we early adopters? Will you choose to limit your HVAC power to extend range, or just go for sheer comfort?
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140 Responses to “Poll: Volt Will Offer a Low Power HVAC Option, Will You Choose it?”
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October 15th, 2009 at 6:20 am
This works for me.
I don’t like to be hot. My car is garaged at both home and work.
The ICE takes a while to produce heat in the winter time anyway. So a gradual warm up is fine.
A/C is a different issue. I will probably go with 100% cool for 100% of the time.
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October 15th, 2009 at 6:34 am
“For example, one of the things that the Volt has that other cars don’t is not only do you select what temperature you want and things like that, but you can also select if you want it to use full available power because you’re interested in being 100% comfortable 100% of the time, or whether or not you want to restrict how much power the system can use. ”
Every car I’ve owned had a little knob that let you select fan speed generally 1-5 (My bug only had 3 settings) but it’s generally known without any special settings that if you blast the fan you’ll draw more power vs. using fan setting 1.
If the heating/cooling element is working proportional to the fan output then you have a simple way for people to use 1 knob (or touchscreen GUI) to determine how quick they want the car to change temp. Common sense will prevail in that people will know if you use the highest setting you’ll kill the battery faster.
One thing I would like to see (not keeping it simple) is a remote starter of sorts that heats/cools your car while it’s parked in your garage at a certain time so that every morning at 5:30 when you leave for work it is at the temp you want and it got there while plugged into the power grid.
As for Lyle’s question, I’ll probably use 100% heat just to get it up to temp quick then turn it off. In the summer I’d prefer to ride with the windows open and never use the AC anyway.
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October 15th, 2009 at 6:46 am
Gsned57 … good suggestion on the pre warming/cooling. Perhaps a “climate” button on the remote. A bit concerned with KISS and sticker cost.
Let’s not foget the optional solar blanket hook up that Mr. Lutz mentioned about a year ago. This is, in effect, a trickle charger that will supply the energy.
=D~
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October 15th, 2009 at 6:51 am
Every car I’ve owned had a little knob that let you select fan speed generally 1-5 (My bug only had 3 settings)
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Remember the Keep It Simple Stupid Rule…Is GM losing their way here?
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October 15th, 2009 at 6:51 am
Power draw on your car is probably very similar between fan setting 1 and fan setting 5.
I think he is going beyond the little fan power draw. In an ICE car, fan settings 1-5 draw similar power. Typically setting 5 or high bypasses a resistor element and gives the fan full power. The lower settings go through a resistor that dumps energy into heat and the fan runs slower. Electric power to run these fans is not a big deal, however, The real energy comes from the heat and this is Waste Heat in an ICE so it is essentially free to use. If you don’t use it then it is dumped to the atmosphere through the radiator.
The VOLT is different. Waste heat is not freely available. I would assume they do not want to use the resistor method on the fan either because this just dumps energy.
It appears that the Volt is going to give you the opportunity to produce heat at a slower rate and to save real power. This is different.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:04 am
I went with Normal Power on this one. While there are times that I would use the eco mode, my wife is generally cold and I am generally hot (like many others I’m sure). We would use the Volt as our family car so this is an issue. I must admit that the dual climate control concept is one my family would enjoy.
On a related issue, has anyone heard performance reports on the new Prius solar panel? The thing is supposed to contribute toward the HVAC in some way. Would this be a viable option for Volt 2.0?
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:12 am
I think it depends on your environment. Those who live in the desert or hot areas even if precooled would quickly become uncomfortable as the car heated up & the AC could not keep up with it. I.E.Southern Ca. for example where days often get around 100 or more in summer. In milder temperatures could go with enrgy saver mode as long as it is relatively easy / quick to change. It will vary throughout the year I imagine for most from no AC to low AC to 100% AC based on temperature outside. Can see pre heating off grid in morning from home but just don’t see anyone pre cooling from work. So you program the AC to come on at 4:55 figure 5 minutes to cool down then get held up in the office for a emmergent issue and the AC runs for an hour off the grid? Hopefully it has an option to run for so many minutes then turn off. Will it automatically roll up your windows just before turning on the AC? Leaving them cracked during the day may prevent them from cracking on their own. just had a 07 Dodge minivan blow out the door window after being parked for 2 weeks without opening any doors so yes it can happen if it is air tight. Most people don’t leave vehicles for extended periods parked but something to be aware of. Wonder if GM tests for this or builds in a pressure relief valve to prevent window blow out? Chrysler obviously does not.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:15 am
I voted Normal power since in PA, Winters get cold, and Summers get hot. We have both temperate extremes. I could live with the inconvenience when driving alone I suppose, but I would demand full heat or cooling when my family would be aboard. And this sort of thing raises another question too: why should I be inconvenienced in the first place when I am paying $30-40 some thousand on a new vehicle? GM would be better off to add a few more battery cells to compensate for HVAC loads IMO.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:18 am
I said low power, just because a hot or cold car doesnt bother me that much. My current car’s AC hasn’t worked in 2 years, but that’s what windows are for. Its been 32 degrees the last few mornings, but my heater barely gets going before i make it to work. I guess I dont see a point in these 2 situations to “max out” my HVAC.
However, when its negative temps this winter, i probably will want max (for a bit). Also, if I lived in Georgia or Florida, AC would be more important to me.
The best part is having the ability to control it. Options are great.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:19 am
Pre-cooling or heating while the battery is charging will help, and hopefully the Volts will have lots of insulation. I would not mind losing a few miles of range to be comfortable, that is just another reason why the Volt has a range extender.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:22 am
Waste heat actually available in VOLT, GM should harvest the heat from the battery cooling system instead of dumping off through some kind of heat sink.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:23 am
We are already making a significant contribution to reducing consumption of foreign oil, so there is no need to suffer for such an insignificant improvement in all electric range – 36 mile AER in comfort or 40 mile AER sweating / freezing – that’s a no brainer.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:27 am
You likely have a stuck-open thermostat if your drive is more than 3 miles. That is the most common failure mode of a stat. It will eventually cause the catalyst to plug, costing a lot more bucks.
Plus, gas usage is up between 10% and 15%. Any cause of an overheat or slow cooling fan or low coolant causes the stat to fail.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:30 am
This applies to the heating cycle of the hvac system .My understanding is that there will be a certain amount of waste heat around the batteries as a result of charging or hard prolonged acceleration. Could this air be piped into the cabin? Is that air contaminated? It is, after all, unusable waste heat.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:38 am
That’s a big “depends”. Depends on whose in the car. Depends on how hot the car is. Deoends on how far I’m going. I’ld probably default to power saving and step it up as needed. It would save more range in my situation if we could remotely control cabin temp while grid connected and if the cabin is well insulated with IR coating and screens to keep the heat out in the first place. Cold temps arn’t much of an issue in S. Florida so heating will only be low power, if at all.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:40 am
I agree completely, Jason. Living in Florida, the Normal level is a no brainer for me too.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:45 am
I’m glad to see this topic.
I happen to work in HVAC Controls R/D (Commercial).
I would hope that the production Volt would offer more than just a single “setpoint” for Grid Powered Preconditioning (Heat and A/C).
A “Schedule” feature would be nice so that the Volt could “pre-heat” or “pre-cool” before auto switching over to your “driving setpoint”.
The interior materials of vehicles do have some thermal mass.
In Winter months, I really like my car “toasty” as I roll out of the garage.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:50 am
They may but it’s no a lot of heat. It’s one of the downsides of the 95% or so efficient battery power source.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:51 am
I don’t think so. On my Avalanche I can reprogram the computer to lock the doors in a different sequence, change how the lights work and all just be turning certain switches on and off in a particular order. The option to make these changes exists but I’ve never used them, never had a need to. With the Volt I think 90% of the people will do the same, just stick with the factory settings. There will be a good 10% that will tinker and fine tune. It’ll be nice to have the options there. Being this is a totally new concept I’m half thinking the Volt is going to be a like a new peripheral for my computer as much as it’s going to be a nice transportation device. I just hope that GM includes a “Reset to Factory Default” button!
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:53 am
I wonder if the fans are stepper motors which are much more efficent especially when different speeds are needed.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:57 am
Unfortunately, very little is simple nowadays. The goal is more likely to make things reliable so as to not cause the owner to need to pay to repair something too early for normal usage.
HVAC capacity might be thought of as two different kinds of capacity. How much humidity it can be made to extract out of the air, as well as how much heat it can be made to extract out of the air. A “cold and clammy” cabin from excessive capacity is not likely what is the concern. But programming studies in at least 10 key climate areas of the country would be an excellent way to go.
You have dry hot and, dry not-so-hot, which is actually a far lower challenge to an HVAC. You have really humid at 100%, and not warm or hot at all, for defogging needs, which is not a challenge to HVAC capacity.
Then, at the other end of the continuum, there is very hot and very humid, which is the strongest challenge to HVAC. “Houston, we have a problem”, can be overcome with the preconditioning feature, but, where recirculation (of air that has already been dehumidified and somewhat cooled), the proportion of outside air being accepted into the cabin might need to be re-evaluated and reduced based on how many occupants (have clicked the seat belt (switches)).
Since early morning drives to work will have outside ambient temps (even in Houston/Austin) at around 78 degrees, there would likely NOT AT ALL be as significant a drain on the electric range as one might think, due to the HVAC, if the cabin were preconditioned to, say, 65 degrees while plugged in, and, when the driver got in to go to work, there was a cool and dry cabin already “set up” with just a minimal “cycling” on the way. (The segment home will be more likely the one for range extender ops anyway, so the proportion of electric range reduction for HVAC is really only likely to be quite minor when you consider that).
However, that afternoon drive home is purgatory here in Texas, and, that normal capacity would actually be a safety concern for people, especially where children (whose body temperatures are far more likely and more quickly to get to dangerous levels), are strapped into the back seats. No question here regarding what HVAC capacity is needed to comply with safety.
My conclusion is to have the differences based on software, not hardware. Especially where a vehicle were to be resold to another person in an entirely different climate.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:59 am
I said normal a/c and heat because if the Volt doesn’t perform like say a Chevy Cruze, all other comparisons are meaningless. When it’s hot out I crank the a/c to the “max” settting. I’ll continue to do that in a Volt. When it’s freezing out, I slide the temperature control to max heat and wait impatiently for the first hint of warm air. Again, I’ll continue to do that in a Volt. If I have to change my behavior, then the Volt experiment is a failure.
Now maybe some early adopters are going to go easy on GM in terms of demanding creature comforts from the Volt but, in my opinion, thats a huge mistake. GM must be held to their claims for the good of GM and the Volt project. The Volt will only succeed if lots and lots of folks buy it. The vast majority of potential buyers heard “40 miles of all electric range”, they didn’t hear “40 miles of all electric range if you sweat and freeze your ass off”. Again, anything less than complete parity with normal ICE cars when it comes to creature comforts and the Volt experiment goes down in history as another huge GM electric car failure.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:01 am
This whole issue brings up the topic that I have not heard much about lately….Just how programmable and accessable is the software within the volt. Has GM consider a USB connection to allow the owner (user) to download data, reconfigure options, restore factory settings, etc. All from a laptop rather than some clumsy arrangement using dash controls. Even touchscreen can be awkward at time such as an iPhone. A full keyboard is so much easier for some people. This would allow one to study HVAC usage over say a month or so to see what effect it was having on the battery usage and change accordingly.
NPNS =D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~gtvwotr
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:02 am
In Winter (Canada style) preheating of the cabin from plugged in power will be a great feature. Getting into a warm car with warm seats and clear windows will make me smile every morning. Then all you would need is a low power heat system to keep the windows from fogging up and condensation from freezing on the inside of the windows. It would be nice if I could set the time on the GUI when the car is to preheat the cabin it would save energy overnight and save battery range.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:04 am
GM already handle this fairly well. In my Vectra you select a low, standard or high setting on the ECC. so when it’s cold out, and you start your car, at first nothing happens at all. as heat becomes available it’s pumped to the cabin, faster fan follows the higher setting. the reverse is true as well, on a hot day you get in and start up, on low nothing much happens till the compressor is fired up and it slowly cools the cabin. on high it will start blowing round hot air right away (making you think it’s doing something) then blast you with icy air once the compressor is on, and once down to temp it finally slows down. works fine on low for me, so i guess that’ll be the “Eco” mode on the Ampera.
Plus if it will heat/cool on schedule for your working day (while plugged in) it won’t affect the electric range at all.
Oh, and for those asking about headlights affecting electric range, a typical headlamp is 55 watts, so 110 for the pair. the 8.5kwh in the volt pack could power them for 77 hours. or another way to look at it, if we assume the 8.5kwh will be used in one hour (speed of 40mph) then the lighting requirement (0.11kwh) would reduce your range by 1.29%, so you go 39.4 miles instead of 40.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:13 am
Lyle,
Did you ask the question about whether the Volt incorporates the use of low E glass to reduce the HVAC load?
If the Volt has low E glass, then the HVAC power consumption would be reduced, extending the electric range. Seems like a no brainer to me.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:16 am
Herm. I forgot about this one. I do hope I can schedule the warm up and cool down, although I don’t really need the cool down feature much.
The warm up at work would be nice as the car will be garaged, but still subjected to outside temperature. At home, once the garage hits 42°F,
the heat goes on. So if I get out of work at 3:00 PM, I would love to be able to tell the car to start warming up at 2:45. That would be sweet.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:19 am
I would have liked to see another option on the poll:
“I would enjoy the option to chose based on my situation that day.”
Living in the South, showing up to meetings drenched in sweat is not only unacceptable socially, driving around all day in a hot car can really wear you out.
But if I am not dressed for business and can put the windows down AND gas is $5.00 per gallon or unavailable, then it would be nice to have an HVAC option.
Same goes for winter.
It also depends on who you have riding with you. Your passengers may not be able to withstand more extreme heat and cold.
So being able to choose would be my ultimate vote on a poll.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:25 am
I said normal because it is about 10 to 12 miles to work so I will be all electric anyway.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Hermant,
I certainly see your points. But the superior thing about having it plugged in is, you can make the entire interior “roasty/toasty” before you get into it in the Winter, as well as,
cold enough to have “froze toes” before you go anywhere in the heat of the Summer.
This preconditioning option is going to be a FAR FAR MORE POWERFUL an option as ever has been available in all of automotive history regarding customer satisfaction regarding climate temperature extremes as well as humidity extremes. I’m absolutely certain of that, because I work with, diagnose, and teach the diagnostics of auto HVAC all the time, Winter and Summer.
The huge difference in HVAC capacity, really, is how
QUICKLY it can expel the hellish latent heat that has already built up in a cabin from sitting there in the sun, in addition to just maintaining comfortable and safe temperatures. Preconditioning in terms of 120 seconds to 180 seconds off of battery or household voltage can cause the elimination of a lot of that excessive (and draining capacity, because preconditioning-time is now on your side). (Pretty cool concept).
(They may have to be careful about the windows and thermal shock to glass and other things though, preconditioning could be that terrific and powerful).
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:35 am
I live near Death Valley…
I’m hoping the cooling can keep up in the summer..
I’m also hoping the battery doesn’t fry with the
vehicle sitting parked in the sun days on end.
Nothing like a thermal runaway in a Lithium battery
to ruin one’s day…
I trust that the engineers have that all sorted out.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Good subject today. IMHO most driver’s will want their VOLT to perform as close to any other vehicle as possible – except for stopping at the gas station! Thus HVAC system should deliver similar performance and comfort.
However, I do believe that VOLT owners will be looking to conserve energy wherever possible. If GM can design an HVAC system with a simple ‘economy’ or ‘reduced power’ mode, then it will be used by most VOLT drivers at certain times. This mode should be activated with the push of a button – similar to the ‘economy’ or ‘trailering’ mode available in many automatic transmissions that alters the normal shift points to accomplish the task of better economy or more torque for towing. If GM can design a visible button for the HVAC system, then it will be used. If, however, the choice is buried deep inside a programmable menu, then it will not be used. In that case, 98% of the vehicles will use the factory default setting.
KISS.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:38 am
I understand that which is why i suggested in my original post to link the amount of heat generated to the fan speed.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:39 am
Lyle: I hate to complain but the pop-up ads are driving me crazy. I have no problem with you getting some revenue from this site, you put a lot of work in to it, and it is a great source of information. But can you get rid of all the “mouse-over” popups and just leave it as pop-ups that only appear if you actually click the ad? I keep mousing-over and blocking out content with these giant ads.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:41 am
HVAC goes well beyond considerations of comfort. You need heat to defrost and defog your windows. Will the lower energy HVAC option still allow adequate operation of these functions? There can’t be any compromise in this regard, for the sake of driver safety.
The only way around this is an embedded defrost system that doesn’t interfere with visibility.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:42 am
I expect a 40k car to automatically control the temperature as needed. Heck, my ‘72 Caddy had automatic climate control. Just set the temp you want and forget it.
I hope that while connected to the grid, the car would heat/cool as needed. Ideally, the car would learn my routine and be ready to go all by itself. It should also learn my driving style and adjust to me, not the other way around (but that’s another story).
I don’t want a lot of settings to fiddle with. I want the car to be smart about how things are done and the computer doesn’t get in the way of the primary goal: driving to my destination.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:43 am
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:43 am
This problem should be left up to the Owner. They should incorporate a “Full Power” Heat/AC setting and also “Mid-level” and an Economy setting in Volt to allow the custmer to select the setting. I for one don’t mind if it’s a little cool in the car in the winter but I really do not like to sweat in the summer so I’d use Economy to keep things above freezing in Winter and High or full power setting for the A/C on those 95º August days. I don’t not think this should be a perminant fixed setting option at the time the car is purchased. That will cause people to feel restricted and later unhappy ith the Volt during extremes of temperature. The article did not say but when the Volt is in “Generator Mode” it shouldn’t matter that it is on High”. Please correct me if I’m wrong about this.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:44 am
I really like the idea of pre-heating the cabin while plugged in. I think this will really help a low power option feel like it is providing the same comfort as the “get in the car and turn the ac to high” behavior that many seem to use.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:45 am
So far you have the most logical idea. For 40K hell yes it better do this. Otherwise it was done wrong.
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:48 am
There are several questions that this topic brings up, and I hope that someone out here has the answers.
1) Is the heating mode compressor based, like a heat pump (EV1 Style) or simply a combination of waste heat (what little is available) and resistive heat coils? The latter would be vastly inefficient compared to the former – on the order of 2 to 3 times worse.
2) Is GM planning a variable displacement (2 stage scroll) compressor like Honda and Toyota use in their hybrids, or something more advanced like a variable frequency drive to modulate capacity based on demand?
3) Will there in fact be a preconditioning option? I have not seen a concrete answer on this, only speculation. I hope that if preconditioning is to be made available that they integrate the heated seat option into that. “Comfort” is relative and can be had through many means, and heating a single seat to 75 degrees would be a lot more efficient than trying to heat a whole vehicle.
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:00 am
I have the dual climate control in my 2010 Fusion Hybrid.. I find that the fans seem to run on HIGH till the appropriate temperature is reached and then drop down to low to maintain the selected temperature… For me…. I turned off the climate control… set the cabin temperature to 19 C and have the fan set on # 2.
Takes an extra minute or two for the temperature to get up there (-6 C here this morning) but at least I don’t have cold air blasting in my face… FYI… the heat arrives within a minute or two of starting the car.
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Jason, where did you get the 36 mile AER? If true, then I agree with you. As nasaman said, comfort is a no brainer living in SW Florida. But, I might be willing to sacrifice a little comfort depending upon the AER.
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:21 am
And it depends on the craziness/cheapness of the person involved. I would drive 8 hours back home from college w/o ac and w/ windows closed and nearly die from the heat just to save a bit of gas, especially back when it was really expensive and I was very poor. Maybe if gas gets expensive again more people will do crazy stuff like that.
I would be all over the low power ac on the Volt, although that is easy to say now that I’m living right on the coast in socal! In any event the hvac is dead weight on cars here unless you are very wimpy. Yes I am rubbing it in to people who live in inland socal (I grew up there, but no more 100+ days for me!).
PS. I’m no longer a poor college student but I bike to work most days. I would highly suggest that to anyone who wants to get off oil and save cash, although I understand that wouldn’t be feasible for most people. Your legs are even better than the Volt. It is great to pass by gas stations with $3.20ish prices on my trip, and I imagine it will feel the same way on the volt.
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:23 am
As advanced as the VOLT is reported to be, in addition to special glass and solar-operated fans to suck out hot air, has anybody suggested rolling down a window on a hot day?
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:23 am
this was my thought. I know it isn’t much, but it seems like it could easily be routed through a heater core so that the air going into the electric heaters is already warm. it would at least be capturing some of that energy. It begins to get complex once your in range extended mode, but there will still be heat off the battery, so they could still capture some of that energy.
it may not be worth the additional weight to save the electricity for essentially a proven method of space heating with an electric element.
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:27 am
That’s a great idea. “Automatic Climate Control” whether you’re using the car or not…. It will need a timer like an alarm clock so it doesn’t do that all night long while you’re sleeping. That would be a waste. But start that up about 15 minutes before you begin your commute… Excellent!
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:28 am
I would like to have the option. Most of the time I don’t need to be 100% comfortable, but on really cold days or times when I have others in the car I would like the option for a powerful HVAC system.
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:28 am
In this world of (have it your way), there is no way the average consumer is going to cut back on their comfort. Especially in colder climates. I don’t think limiting HVAC power consumption should even be an option. Use the ICE for the additional power, that’s what it’s for. The MPG/ Power consumption of this vehicle is high/low enough that it makes this a non issue as far as I’m concerned.
Get this VOLT technology into a decent sized vehicle soon!!!
From Raser Technologies website-
http://www.rasertech.com/news/press-releases/raser-technologies-provides-update-on-its-geothermal-activities-and-its-phev-project
PHEV Update
Raser is extremely pleased with the progress of its electric powertrain technology following successful demonstrations of the Company’s H3 Hummer E-REV on CNBC, in Washington, D.C., and in California with Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. Following these successful demonstrations, and the announcement that the full-size 6,000 pound, four wheel drive, luxury SUV H3 Hummer E-REV can deliver approximately 140 miles per gallon and has driven more than 50 miles while limiting usage to approximately 60% of the battery pack’s stored energy and zero gasoline, the Company has had discussions with several automakers regarding potential partnerships.
Raser is completing its final technical review of its drivetrain technology with General Motors and anticipates moving to the next phase of its commercialization initiatives.
The Company’s project with Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E), which is related to the deployment of clean, fuel efficient full-sized vehicles continues to progress. The Company has completed the proof of concept phase and is beginning alpha test phase.
With the Company’s success in developing large, efficient SUVs using its electric powertrain technology, it is now embarking on an initiative to develop systems for pickup trucks and other larger vehicles.
Kraig Higginson, Chairman of Raser Technologies, commented, “Raser has many exciting prospects for future developments, and while the financing markets have been challenging in recent months, we are seeing positive movement. We are also beginning to see federal money allocated to renewable energy projects funnel through the system, and we intend to take full advantage of these funds by means of grants and loan guarantees. In addition, there is exciting new, second generation power generation technology that is available to us that we anticipate implementing to boost power production and benefit our bottom line. Also, our PHEV technology positions us well to capture market share in the new emerging auto industry, with disruptive technology that can enable trucks and SUVs to achieve over 100 mpg.”
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:30 am
“Every car I’ve owned had a little knob that let you select fan speed generally 1-5 (My bug only had 3 settings) but it’s generally known without any special settings that if you blast the fan you’ll draw more power vs. using fan setting 1.”
This is not reducing the power consumption in terms of energy. The total power difference is negligible on a 3-5 speed DC driven fan. What GM is talking about is electric A/C heat power. 1 Kw =3413 btu, most vehicles are 18-24000 btu/hr (yes that is about the same a s a small house) meaning it uses 5-7 kw/hr. a low power option is say 1/2 that.. I would love a power level selector 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, full tilt boogie…on a mildly warm day 1/4 just to make it comfortable, on a 110 °F day, full tilt boogie to cool the cabin, then drop to 1/4 for maintenance. Leave the fan speed manual though..I’ve had auto fans, and the worst is not getting the circ to the back of the cabin because the damn fan stays on low…
With electronic cooling/heating they could theorhetically program the power for optimal power use based on the temperature differential of set point and actual cabin temp.
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:34 am
I am certain that the solar option will not work at night on the prius either….
and the Prius solar runs a fan to exchange the air..not cool it..so on a 100 deg day..them temp in a Prius will still be at least 100°…
BTW you can keep a copy of your DOOFUS card for yourself…
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:34 am
Bill Robins.
If you avoid the “roll over to expand with your mouse pointer, you won’t have that problem. Hope this tip helps make your viewing more enjoyable.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:38 am
Fun poll Lyle!
I voted for “Low Power”. The vote was a no brainer, but only because of climate. I live on the coast in SoCal where the average temps in July are like 62-72 and in January 52-62. Plus of course the car starts in the garage. Most of the time an open window is all the HVAC you need.
It’s a great option though. For cold winter or hot summer weather it would be great to be able to “dial in” your trade-off between range and climate control. If I lived in some places I’d definitely go with “Normal Power”.
I don’t believe, however, that if you’re driving less than 40 miles you shouldn’t care. You will have to pay for the electricity. In fact you’ll have to pay for more than you’ll use in the car because of conversion losses. No reason to run up the electric bill unnecessarily.
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:43 am
This is a good point Jason. In a way it’s a version of the 80/20 rule. The Volt will easily save 80% of the gas you’d ordinarily use. Trying to squeeze out the last 20% of your gas usage could turn out to be very hard, taking 80% of the effort. Since the last 20% isn’t that important in the larger scheme of things, get the easy part done and stop worrying about the small stuff. Plus it won’t be a bad thing to run the engine now and again, if for no other reason than to know it still works!
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:51 am
I said low, just because my current daily driver lacks A/C and doesn’t have a very quick warm up profile. The only thing I may use the A/C for would be to dry the cabin, or cool down on a real hot day. So even if I use it it won’t be too often because I enjoy the windows down.
But I think for the hypermillers they are never going to use the HVAC system.
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:51 am
To very loosely quote Mark Twain, the longest summer I ever spent was a winter and spring in Houston. Yeah, Houston is one humid place. We had a house on a golf course and in the mornings we would have condensation on the inside of the windows. Yikes! I can’t imagine driving in Houston without air conditioning but some people did it. In fact some people said they never turned their air conditioners on in their houses, which was inconceivable to me. I guess you get used to it.
As for your comment that the differences should be controlled by software rather than hardware, I do think that the changes are software based. You press a button for more or less, something like the fan speed. Or did you mean something else?
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:59 am
This actually illustrates one of the strong points of the EREV concept: we actually GET this choice. If I crank the A/C to 100% and it drains my battery before I get to work, I have to spend a bit of money to run the ICE. If a guy in a Nissan LEAF cranks the A/C to 100% and it drains his battery before he gets to work… he DOESN’T get to work!
So for us EREVvers it’s really a question of paying extra for the comfort, just the same as choosing between running the A/C or getting better gas mileage in a conventional car.
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Biking is an excellent suggestion for those who can do it safely. I used to do this most everywhere in Durham, NC but my current location in MN doesn’t have any lower speed roads surrounding it.
Personally, I nearly never use the HVAC controls in my cars — if I can get just a little airflow to keep the windows clear during winter and some fresh vent air directed toward my face in summer I’m in good shape. Of course the wife and kid aren’t too thrilled with that…
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Jason:
Well isn’t it just a simple matter of flipping a switch to change from normal to low? If one had to make a lifetime choice of one or the other at the time of purchase, that would be one issue. If it’s just one more option for the driver to choose, I don’t see a problem.
Although, whoever mentioned KISS got my attention.
Of course I’m a neighbor of DonC. I turn the AC on in my S-10 about 10 times/year, and the heater about the same, LOL. I could go back to the days of no AC and heaters being an option and get along just fine.
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:26 am
This is my situation as well. In addition, I’ll be charging at work, so I’m going 100% comfort. I love the precondition feature!
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:28 am
mitch:
The solar option won’t work at night? My heart is broken.
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:29 am
LoeK:
Right! +1
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:31 am
They don’t bother me. Anythig which offsets the cost of all of this is all to the good, IMHO.
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Jim:
As to the embedded defrost system, I had the same thought. I wonder what the relative power consumption would be. As dirty as my windshield is most of the time, a few wires won’t bother me, LOL. We have it in the rear window of our Impala. Here in SoCal, we have probably turned it on 10 times in 14 years, if that.
My brother is an avid motorcyclist. He has a really slick pair of electric gloves and a similar vest. They plug into the electrical system of the motorcycle, so how much could they draw? Maybe Chevy could issue a set with each Volt. I’d use them if I thought it was doing King Abdullah in the eye.
BTW, did you hear the report on NPR this AM about the suicide bomber who blew himself up inside the office of the Saudi chief of counterintelligence? With an INTERNAL bomb! That’s what we’re up against here guys. It sounds like a joke as I type it out here, but it most assuredly is not.
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:45 am
CorvetteGuy:
What a concept! Why didn’t I think of that? We used to call it 4/70 air conditioning. Roll down 4 windows and drive 70 mph, LOL.
When I was a kid, there was no such thing as air conditioning in cars, at least any cars we could afford. I remember driving through Barstow in the middle of the summer, and turning green with envy when we saw a car with one of those round swamp cooler things hanging out of the window. They are a very cool (no pun intended) accessory at low rider shows now.
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:47 am
In CA all new cars will have to have “solar gain reducing windows”. That was part of the proposed regulations that gave rise to the myth that CARB was planning on banning black cars. The paint regulations were dropped but the window regulation was made final. Given the load of the cooling system on the range, my guess is that the Volt will have these windows as standard. We have one car with lower solar gain windows and one without, and the windows do make a difference.
Some people complain that all these regulations drive up the cost of the car. Yes it will drive up the cost a small amount but in my experience better windows, either in your car or your house, are definitely worth it. I’d vote for better noise insulating car windows as well. I hate when manufacturers put in the good noise insulating windows in front and then cheap out on the back windows.
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:49 am
I can’t wait until Raser gets together with EEstor. Pretty soon we will have Hummers that manufacture power as they drive, and sell it back to the grid. Maybe through those cool embedded wires in the roads. Or maybe they could bounce it off a space ship. We could use our tinfoil hats for antennas.
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:50 am
From my # 8 post….
*****
I would hope that the production Volt would offer more than just a single “setpoint” for Grid Powered Preconditioning (Heat and A/C).
A “Schedule” feature would be nice so that the Volt could “pre-heat” or “pre-cool” before auto switching over to your “driving setpoint”.
*****
A “Schedule” (not a timer) would be preferable.
A Winter Scenario :
You typically drive out of the garage at 7:15 AM each morning. It’s 20 degrees outside but your Volt has been in your garage (say 35 degrees) and charging from the grid using a “Schedule” to start at 10PM when plugged in to take advantage of cheaper rates.
The Volt climate control system “wakes up” per the “Schedule” at 7:00 AM (when plugged in) and quickly preheats the cabin to 85 degrees (toasty mode). At 7:10 the Schedule switches over to “driving mode” with your choice of 75 degrees.
At 7:14 AM, you unplug the Volt and back out of the garage in total comfort.
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Bob:
Good point. +1
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:57 am
We kid our friends who live more than two miles from the beach that they “live in Arizona”. LOL That’s a joke but the climate change is very dramatic as you move even short distances inland. Some people like being inland. It’s both warmer and colder but it’s also more sunny.
I’m definitely with you on the use of HFAC. Unless I’m on the Freeway and don’t want to open a window because it’s too noisy I never even think about turning on the AC. And I don’t think I’ve turned on the heat in several years. But that’s local driving. Going to the real Arizona or Tahoe is a different story.
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October 15th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Here in Vegas, 115 degrees in the summer (and most of the year) and in the teens to low twenties in the winter, I opted for normal power. I know I’ll get some comments about the “Twenties” in the winter. While it’s not cold to a lot of you, it’s cold for us. Coming originally from Chicago I know what cold is, but still, you adapt and now 20 degrees really seems cold.
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October 15th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Most of the regulars here see the advantages of both systems.
It’s the VOLT bashers that drop in here from time to time (know here as ‘Trolls’) that seem to have problems with the fact that the VOLT is an electric car with a gas-powered generator.
In 2011 or 2012, the choice between the 2 systems for our next purchase will depend on how far my wife has to commute to work, and how comfortable the interiors are.
Based on early photos, the LEAF is a very small car. I doubt my family would be comfortable in that car even if it does go 100 miles. On the other hand, the VOLT is getting expensive, so price may keep us from getting one.
“Which is better” is highly subjective.
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October 15th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Anonymous Proxy / Roger Ramjet / Slack Johnson etal:
Certainly the Volt will get its driver to work. And well beyond. When the Leaf grinds to a halt somewhere near 100 miles, the Volt will have 200 + yet to go, and take mere minutes to refuel and be back on its way…while the LEAF is once again underway, appended to a tow truck.
So to each prospective buyer the choice we have debated many times on this blog – pure BEV with (for some) the associated range anxiety, or the EREV for now until batteries have much greater storage capacity…
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October 15th, 2009 at 11:23 am
I would leave the AC on low or off totally. I live in Sacramento and my AC has not worked in over 5 years. On the 100F+ days it can be hot hot but I found parking in the shade helps as does leaving the windows down a bit when parked.
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October 15th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Yeah, good one. except, it’s been confirmed all the other lights on the car will be LED, for minimal draw. and when you have your “brights” on, dependant on design, you don’t use any more power. There is simply a shutter which lifts to allow light out above the normal alignment level. Unless you’re talking about the lights i’ve sometimes seen of the roof of american trucks, but i’m pretty sure the volt does not have those….
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October 15th, 2009 at 11:25 am
For me AC is a moot point. I live in the Washington, DC area and rarely use my A/C when driving alone (I of course MUST use it when the wife is with me). In fact, I did not use the A/C once this entire summer driving to/from work or running errands alone. Just isn’t necessary in this area.
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October 15th, 2009 at 11:28 am
I certainly hope they aren’t just going to use “electric heating elements.” Those are very inefficient at providing heat. It had better be some kind of heat pump.
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October 15th, 2009 at 11:36 am
You might be worried about electricity costs in Socal. But here in Oregon, my electricity bill is barely over $20/month all taxes included (and most of that is tax) and its produced mostly from hydro, solar and wind. With my short commute? Yeah I might as well crank that thing if I need to. The cost per mile is only about 2 cents in a Volt in Oregon. For a Socal owner, you’re probably up to 5 or 6 cents.
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October 15th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Having lived in arctic-like Nebraska and subzero Chicago (now in N. Cal.), any heat in a frozen car is super precious, especially for elderly, kids and handicap. For that, GM with its rich history of leading-edge comfortable cars, is surely agonizing over EV HVAC, What’s needed, given the size of the VOLT, is about 2 HP. Now the ER ICE is a little thing-there’s no engineering reason whatsoever the ER cannot be engaged to cover HVAC (and/or heat water). That decision is purely a marketing one. Moreover, I’d bet the farm GM engineering somewhere, sometime has investigated the issue with solid recommendations like adding dedicated super-caps (which is obvious) to store HVAC power and conserve running the ER ICE.
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October 15th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Are they considering a solar roof to add some additional energy?
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October 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Mostly, I worry about green vehicles backsliding into punishment vehicles again. You don’t have to conserve to the point of discomfort – we can do / have more using less.
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October 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
There is simply a shutter which lifts to allow light out above the normal alignment level.
So what your telling me is that the headlights are on at full glare 100% of the time but it has Louvers to dim them? What a waste of energy! Why turn on the lights just to cover them most of the time? I hope you are wrong.
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October 15th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
IF you actually read my post, I said “On a hot day”, is that too hard to ask??
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October 15th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
I live in the D, and i think the low power option is fine, even in our 4 seasons area. My heat/AC settings go from 1 to 5, and i never have my heat or AC blowing harder than 2, MAYBE 3 if it’s under 10 degrees, or over 100.
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October 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
What do you do in the Winter when the temperature is below 30 Degree Fahrenheit? HVAC is also used to heat the car.
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October 15th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Unrelated side note, but GM related…
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10375784-54.html
$1/gal flex-fuel and Volt compatible, yes?
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October 15th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Yes, here in CT I can do without the A/C (in fact I only used it ONCE this summer), but the heat is a MUST, even when my wife isn’t with me.
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October 15th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
We live in Houston, Texas. Houston would not exist if it were not for Air Conditioning – So we need both options so that we can select how long we have to sweat in the car in the summer.
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October 15th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I don’t know if this is going to be included on the first-gen Volts, but I think the Webasto BlueHeat system would be well-suited to an EREV. Although the hard-core greenies may reel in horror at the thought of using gasoline to heat the cabin, it’s probably ultimately more efficient than using a grid heater to accomplish the same.
http://www.webastoshowroom.com/BlueHeat/index.html
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October 15th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
I said, “Doesn’t matter.” Where I live I rarely use either the heater or the air conditioner.
But for the times that I DO use it, I would like to be able to select either. Sometimes, I have to defog as quickly as possible, sometimes I just need a little bit of heat or cooling. Whatever. Anyway, the poll should have had “I want BOTH” just to humor me.
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October 15th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Has anyone notice Oil’s climb this year from $40 a barrel to as high as $78 today?
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/printchart/CO/W
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=CLX09.NYM
Nothing will impact the demand of the Volt and the other plug-ins more than this.
At $100 a barrel plug-ins make sense for anyone who can drive 15,000 AER yearly.
At $150 a barrel plug-ins make sense for the average driver.
At $200 a barrel plug-ins are the only thing that makes sense for everyone (along with a lot of charging infrastructure).
What still confuses me is how the average American still does not understand why we need to move fast and make plug-ins affordable.
Most folks still thing it is about global warming.
It is about
1) Keeping American Dollars in our economy. By keeping our energy money in the country, that alone justifies government subsidies for these cars. This will create lots of jobs and taxes for our economy by creating instead of importing energy.
2) Not being subject to keeping Middle East peace to keep our economy going and not having to keep the oil lanes open militarily.
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October 15th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Sorry for the misconception David. My question was directed to Bill Marsh who lives in Washington, D.C.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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October 15th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
No the Prius did not do that. And it is not a “good solution”
It supplied an outrageous priced set of solar cells connected to an air extractor fan to push some heated air out of the car. You can buy the fan for $6 bucks at any auto specialty store. The solar cells provide negligible energy for the fan. A normal 12 v auto battery will drive that cheap plastic extractor fan for weeks. The much larger battery on a Volt could probably drive it for a year or more.
IOW PT Barnum was correct. There is a a sucker born every minute; and Toyota has found YOU.
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October 15th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
YeeeeHaw!
I’m back online. Finally got my laptop runnin with Win 7.
I voted for Normal. Why change the normal behavior of a car now? Let the occupants decide what to do. Besides, isn’t there a thermostat and fan control button/knob thingy anyway?
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October 15th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
sup wit that thingy going across my screen?
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October 15th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
tom:
Amen. Well said. +1
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October 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Dave:
I agree. I’m sure that’s what they intend to do.
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October 15th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Steve:
Speaking of which, where did they go? Not that I miss them, LOL
Can it be that they finally used up the patience of the moderator?
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October 15th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
I agree, it depends. If I don’t need the max AER I would definitely use “Normal Power” but, if I am going on a long distance trip (> 40 miles) and outside temperatures are not too extreme I would use “Low Power” to maximize AER. That’s why it will be good to have a choice, conditions will determine which one I will use.
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October 15th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Tom, it can make all the sense in the world but if I can’t afford $43,000.00 for a car now, then when all the scenarios you mention converge, will I magically be able to afford a $43,000.00 car?
This is where it doesn’t make cents. $2/gallon or $10/gallon one’s financial ability to purchase a $43,000.00 car will not be changed.
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October 15th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
It has been considered but where it went after that???? who knows. By “additional power” are you suggesting for the battery or to cool the inside?
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October 15th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
I am late to the party today – That darn work really breaks up my gm-volt.com time!!!!
Where I live in Ohio, we get really cold days in winter and really hot days in summer. At those times, I would sacrifice some of the AER. But quite a bit of the time, I just have the fan on to move some air, or have the windows down.
Do we have any idea how much AER would be lost by driving with the windows down, due to the aero drag being increased? I seem to remember this being talked about, but I do not remember if we ever came to any type of a conclusion….. These are some of the specs we don’t have yet, so it is hard to make an informed decision.
However, if I am going to lose 4 miles of AER due to aero drag, but only 3 miles or AER to run the HVAC, then I guess I will roll up the windows and turn on the A/C!!!
Five of seven days per week, this is almost a non issue for me, as the round trip commute is about 25 miles. This other two days, I guess I will just use a bit more fuel in the ICE to keep warm or or cool. That is why I voted for “normal”.
But I like the idea of it being my choice, and having the ability to program the car to my desires. I also like the pre heat/pre cool options while still plugged into the grid!
I guess some lucky people will get to test all of this in Project Driveway and report back here!!!
NPNS
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October 15th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
I was simply agreeing with you…that heat is definitely needed for the northern climates.
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October 15th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
On cold Canadian winter mornings, will it be possible to heat up the Volt while it’s still plugged-in? That way when you leave with the car already warm and the battery fully charged, it can stay warm without using so of the battery power.
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October 15th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Where is your post? or are you actually Flaninacupboard too?
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October 15th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
welll..Like the song its 5 oclock somewhere..I guess if youare in LA at 6pm, it night in NY, so yes it will work at night…just maybe not where you are, at that time, in your geographical area, ….at that moment…
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October 15th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
buy oil options now at 78, and sell when it gets to 200, and yes…you can get that 43000 volt… 43000/122 ($ diff from 200-78) and you need 352 barrels x 78 that is only 28000 today…a bargain..assume 3 years, for oil to get there and the mass availability of a volt..and bada bing, bada boom.
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October 15th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
It’ll be great if it happens. I’ll believe it when I see it. I wonder how much energy, in the form of natural gas or whatever, it takes to cook this stuff up, and then distribute it to the end user?
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October 15th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
CJSparrow,
You may be right. Since $10 gas would mean recession part II and depression part I, many $43K cars would have to be discounted way down or discontinued. You would have to decide if you were going to buy food products made with $10 gas, or buy a few gallons to put in your tank. Very few of those who still had jobs, could afford to buy both if gas goes up that high.
Sounds crazy; remember the furloughs you put up with after gas went to only 4 dollars and some change?
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October 15th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Compatible, yes, but this new plant is more a validation of the plasma gassification-based process in a plant setting, as opposed to what’s possible in the lab. The plant won’t be cranking out more than 40 or 50,000 gallons a year, which is a drop in the bucket.
Now, when they build their 50 to 100 MILLION gallon plants like they’re planning, at that same $1 cost per gallon, they might have something there!
Of course, there’s still the small distinction between the “cost” and “price” of a commodity. That is, maybe they CAN make it for a buck a gallon, but I bet they’ll sell it priced in energy-proportioned relation to the price of gasoline.
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October 15th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Relax, it’s probably just this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-GaRKDsz-Y
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October 15th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Man, I’m still putting up with the furloughs……til June of next year. We just laid off an additional 30 peeps after releasing 300 a few weeks ago.
We’re screwed.
And someone is gonna be able to buy anything with all this going on just because gas is $10/gal?…..lol
Man, I had to cut back on my lunches at H( . y . )TERS!
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October 15th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Capt’n,
If gasoline actually hits $10, alternatives become extremely competitive. There will be loads of < $43k electrics available as well as CNG. GM and Ford already make small CNG cars for other markets. I expect that either company could crank up a local assembly line in a very small time frame. Even E100 becomes competitive.
It would not be difficult to add a CNG compressor/delivery system to existing gas stations that have NG coming in. E100 is just a replacement liquid fuel. The infrastructure is already in place.
Americans will find a way. Oil is not the only source of power.
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October 15th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Mike:
Ya gotta love it! “Straight outta Lynwood”, LOL. I go back to the “School Cafeteria” and “My Bologna” days on the Dr. Demento Show. Unfortunately, when the pop music scene passed my by, at about the time of “Beat It”/”Eat It”, I sort of lost the handle on what he was doing.
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October 15th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Capt’n,
How’d you get OEM Win7 before the release date? (10/22)
I’m running RC Enterprise on mine.
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October 15th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Lets not have another session of the technically ignorant.
OBVIOUSLY using a resistive heating ‘element’ is the most inefficient technology for heating, and heating the entire cabin is the most inefficient method.
Try heat pumps (ie the A/C run in reverse cycle) pumping battery/inverter waste heat into the seats! Even running the equivalent of an electric blanket on the seat is MUCH more efficient than heating cabin air.
Read this article on the subject:
http://electric-vehicles-cars-bikes.blogspot.com/2009/06/how-to-power-heating-and-ac-in-electric.html
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October 15th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
I chose comfort (I live in Hot Humid Houston!)
But I feel this is a situation where the substantial battery “reserve” should be dipped into to minimize impact to the customer experience. (i.e. let the usable range remain somewhat constant within a broad range of accessory usage profiles)
Otherwise, you’re trading overall Range Anxiety for AER Anxiety. The last thing GM wants are customers driving around boiling (or freezing), because they’re afraid turning on the AC/Heater will kill AER.
I believe they have the margin to compensate and all the consumer need know is that its “All Handled”.
Ken
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October 15th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
I love Weird Al!!!!
Naw it was that shockwave java driven thingy. I got rid of it so it won’t appear anymore. Sorry Lyle
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October 15th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
We have “Enterrprise Select” agreement with MS for our undisclosable Govt agency I work for.
I gotta tell you though. It beats the pants off of Vista. Other than lack of drivers it’s much better than Vista. The drivers will come along in time.
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October 15th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Hey Don,
Thanks for the reply.
Variation of the chilling of a compressor (with not only the entire on-off cycling, which is very inefficient to begin to set up a “steady-state” repeatedly, but,) with a PMW (pulse width modulated) bleed from just after the expansion valve on it’s low side, bypassing the evaporator to the evaporator outlet (not picking up heat on purpose).
This is something going on (an idea I posted many months ago) that is now being explored for residential HVAC load peak shaving, which, effectively may reduce “over”tonnage to the point that dehumidification is far more effectively done firstly, by more closely matching the btu’s of the heat load far more toward the condensing dew point. In other words, get that humidity out of the air first, then put forth that dehumidified air at a very brisk and calibrated varied fan speed, and your sensation of cooling and comfort may be even more effective than just clammy-cold.
If humidity is near 20% or less, did you know you could feel like you’re “freezing” if you are already cooled down, and, the output temperature is as high as 70 to 74 degrees?
Also, the more water you take out of the air, the more dust, germs, and other pollutants you are draining out of it too.
Blast the air VOLUME up to as fast as possible for the maximum change-of-state of water vapor to condensate.
Outside (polluted/hot/humid) air is the enemy. 10% outside air when large air volumes are being moved is far too much heat and humidity to bring in. Only 3 percent might be fine.
There are far more covariables that would be in play, so I don’t want to be boring with endless details. But, if one of the next Volt trips would come to Austin for a very warm day, I’d love to do a contribution of consulting in exchange for a short drive around the block in a Volt.
(And, if you liked the “Plug it in, Plug it in” jingle variant I wrote, then I’m sure I’d then be as poetic as a tech could possibly be regarding Volt after I’d driven it just once).
I might even be tempted to do a very short video. (VERY short though).
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October 15th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Thanks for the very informative link.
There has been a lot of discussion of heated seats here in the past, so I assume that they must be coming with the Volt. I have a pretty optimistic sense (sorry to shock anyone, LOL) that GM engineers are pushing pretty hard on most or all of the other advanced technologies mentioned.
One of the reasons I am bracing myself to pay the price of the Volt is to do my bit to encourage this pushing of the technology envelope in the interest of fuel/energy efficiency.
LJGTVWOTR!!
BTW, sorry for all of the typos earlier today. I can’t believe nobody called me on any of them, hahaha. My proofreading skills were even worse than usual today. Thanks for your patience.
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October 15th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
PS:
We get a sort of email newsletter from GM via our local dealer. It came today, and there is EXTENSIVE coverage of the Volt, including several very professional videos. I guess somebody is starting to get the message.
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October 15th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
I selected low power as well….
I am a little puzzled by this however… doesn’t every car pretty much give the option anyway through “temperature” and “fan speed” settings? Guess the Volt will be fully automatic… maybe just tie it in with the “Eco” button. Probably a high degree of overlap between through willing to have enforced eco driving and HVAC
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Normal for me. That is the beauty of the Volt and the bain of the CURRENT (no pun intended) pure electrics, RANGE ANXIETY. The Volt really doesn’t need to have a low/normal option. I’m certain the pure electrics will reach the point where HVAC settings will have no practical effect on what a person NEEDS (as opposed to want) for any given trip. BUT that will not be the case for who knows how long.
GM has it right. Go Volt!
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Lee,
There are so many terrific things you can have if your vehicle is plugged in overnight.
Possibly, as cheap and compact that (ceramic?) resistive heating elements are, they might just be there (in addition to the ICE coolant heater core) for those cold morning preheating warm-ups for just that sole purpose, it seems to me.
If the interior fabrics are low thermal inertia, that means that as soon as you sit down, the material conforms to the temperature against it. In keeping costs low, I doubt a heat pump setup would be used. Those are really very high pressure.
The exact type of compressor and it’s peak BTU’s have not been disclosed as far a I know, but if you are going to have preconditioning options, that ought to mean an electric AC compressor. I would like to see a 2.75 ton capacity unit. The cooling of the pack in a situation where it is being discharged on a very hot afternoon might require some extra measure beyond the typical 1.75 to 2.0 tons usually rated for auto air to quickly expel built-up heat.
The Honda dual scroll AC compressor is really interesting. It has one side that has one scroll mechanically belt-driven, and the other side is electrically driven, at 70cc’s displacement. While the electric side can maintain an already cooled cabin, it is generally not regarded to be able to expel the higher accumulations of built up latent heat in a cabin sufficiently quickly. (And, it is really expensive).
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October 15th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
That is deceptive nearly 40% of Oregon’s power comes from coal, half of which is produced out of state if you believe this source (http://oregon.sierraclub.org/goals/energy.asp)
CA does the same thing- it is not quite as green as it claims to be. Out of state coal helps hide the costs of green energy.
I am all for replacing coal, but we have to be honest that many people driving volts will be using coal power. HOWEVER using the grid even with 100% coal still reduces foreign oil use and removes emissions from population centers.
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October 15th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
I’m not particularly worried about cooldown / heatup rate.
I just want a timer so that it will be at temperature on utility power for me.
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October 15th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
I can’t believe that the coolant from the internal combustion engine in the volt won’t be used as a source of heat when heat is in demand on a frigid day. I can see having electric heating elements as well but the ICE is just too obvious a source of heat to ignore. I’ve said it before – the ability to provide heat without dramatically reducing range will be a huge selling point for the volt compared to other EVs when they hit the real world consumer (especially here iin Canada and any other location with cooler climates for a good chunk of the year)
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October 16th, 2009 at 12:36 am
Well you could drink some water during the summer to keep yourself cool if you don’t want to use the AC or you could drink some hot chocolate during the winter time but be warned you should always pay attention to yourself when driving on the road maybe one of these options will keep you cool or warm during the summer and winter months when saving electric power for your battery when it comes to the electric range?
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October 16th, 2009 at 12:52 am
You could also wear a heavy winter coat if you want to stay warm as well when not using the heater in the Volt period!
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October 16th, 2009 at 2:05 am
How do yo crank up local assembly when converting foreign versions of vehicles for for the US not to mention FMVSS and EPA regs, costs billions, in a crumbling market within a credit crisis where no one is willing to let go of their cash?
Folks always rhetorically throw out the nice round number of $10 gas without stopping to think that it would crush our economy as we know it and basically force most people come come up with an entirely different way to live.
Ford has already hocked everything of value, what would they use to fund carpoclypse II. GM and Chrysler used your future tax dollars for carpocalypse I & that was only gas at $4.50
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October 16th, 2009 at 2:14 am
I would try the low power:
1) During summer when I am not within ten minutes of showing up at a meeting. (Hard to sell an idea if the only reaction folks have is, ooh gross just don’t touch me or bump into me),
2) During winter I can wear a beannie/ski cap and maybe have heated seats!!
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October 16th, 2009 at 4:19 am
I would sure love to be able to control this.
I am glad GM is making the car this way.
Judging by the comments, we all have different wants and needs.
Individual control is best.
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October 16th, 2009 at 6:05 am
While the vehicle is plugged-in, I would like to see a mode where you could program the HVAC to activate PRIOR to going on battery mode which would lower the initial load on the batteries. Not everyone has a heated garage (or even a garage) so it would be nice on the cold side of the equation to prep the Volt while its still connected to the grid.
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October 16th, 2009 at 6:57 am
Thats why I said in post above “why we need to move fast and make plug-ins affordable.”, guess is should have said AFFORDABLE.
And at $5 gallon gas, by 2012 there will be electric options that the overall cost of driving will be cheaper than gasoline cars.
Hopefully the price of the volt will come down after model year 2011. The Leaf will start out at $25,000.
The point of my post is the clock is ticking, we need to stop importing Oil. Part of that is affordable electric cars, I believe that is only a few years a way (improvements in battery technology and mass production). We also need to start improving our electric grid, moving it out to wind sources in Texas, North Dakota, Lake Erie, we need more Nuclear power plants, we need more geothermal, we need to drill in Alaska.
Sure what I’m talking about may cost a couple trillion, but I’d rather do that and create American jobs then spend a trillion a year to import oil as we could well be doing in a year or two.
We really need to be moving faster because there is a tornado out there coming our way and we are not protected.
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October 16th, 2009 at 10:28 am
The ICE takes a while to produce heat in the winter time anyway. So a gradual warm up is fine.
You touch on an interesting benefit of EV’s here, Rashiid. For the people who prefer comfort over range, an electrically-driven vehicle such as the Volt should provide instant heat when you go into the car, rather than a gradual temperature increase like an ICE.
Perhaps this draw will still be limited somewhat in colder weather due to battery concerns, but since driving the car takes much more energy than heating the cabin, I’m guessing not. Either way, I’m sure the cabin will heat up much faster than an ICE when people don’t choose an Eco-HVAC mode.
Just another benefit of driving electric!
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October 16th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
I vote for whatever produces a mistake-free Volt.
The growing list of permutations says the programming bugs will be running about.
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October 16th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
I voted doesn’t matter. I really depends on the weather though. Even a conventional ICE takes a while to get comfortable in the bitter cold and a scorching hot day no AC is instantly comfortable. So it sort of depends on the initial conditions and particular trip what I’d rather have the HVAC do.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Things I’d like to see in way of heating/cooling:
1) Small solar panel to power a fan to suck out hot interior air during the summer.
2) Heated seat option. These heated up quickly in my Durango and often provided enough comfort on chilly but not freezing days.
3) Left/right heating options. This alone could potentially save a fortune in wasted heat. So many times I want it cold, and my wife wants it hot. So we close all the vents on one side, blow heat on my wife’s side and I roll down the window. I think implementing a heating/vent system that can be set to a given side. Even allowing cool air to vent to one side and hot to the other would make a lot of sense.
4) I am curious if a system could be built off the regenerative breaking system in later Volt models. To essentially suck up heat from breaking and warm a small oil filled radiator/heat circulator. Might provide a more economical low heat system.
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October 23rd, 2009 at 7:08 pm
really depends on the range you need! If you are on a short trip to the store then crank up that HVAC!
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