AND 
Chevy Volt Climbs Pikes Peak
GM has just about finished production of 80 integration-vehicle version Chevy Volts. These are full production intent cars that are being used for extensive road testing to generate learning engineers can use to further refine the vehicle for production.
Part of that learning involves putting the car through rigorous real-world driving conditions. We have already heard the cars have performed well in the mountains of Tennessee and the heat of Death Valley.
A very storied and symbolic place to drive is Pike’s Peak. A GM engineer by the name of John Blanchard has written about and confirmed the Chevy Volt has climbed the peak.
This location is interesting because it is 14,115 feet high and has a 19 mile road going up to the summit. It represents the scenario of the car being in generator mode and requiring continuous sustained energy to climb the very long steep grade.
Blanchard confirmed “the Volt was in extended-range mode for the most part of this segment.” On the uphill portion the team was “making sure the Volt could climb the steep inclines and operate at a high altitude.”
As the picture shows, Volt made it to the top, and “climbed the mountain faster than we anticipated,” he wrote. How fast you say? Blanchard didn’t.
The team also evaluated the Volt’s downhill performance too which interestingly represents a long and continuous opportunity to regenerate energy.
“The regenerative feature produced a good amount of energy back into the battery,” said Blanchard. “We were also pleasantly surprised with the temperature of our brakes.”
Back in the summer of 2008 I speculated with the Volt’s chief engineer Andrew Farah whether the Volt (which didn’t exist then) would be limited in speed to due power limitations on Pike’s Peak.
He had said “it’s a problem if you want to do it at 90 mph, but it’s not a problem to get you to the top.”
“There are limitations to the E-REV concept,” he said. “But the people who will experience a problem with this are far and few between.”
It is great news to see that the day the Volt actually did climb Pike’s Peak has really arrived.
Source (GM)
238 Responses to “Chevy Volt Climbs Pikes Peak”
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:26 am
No surprise. But I would really love to know three things.
1) How fast could they get the car up to while traveling up? (just curiosity really)
2) How much energy did the regen give back during that long ride down? 1/4, 1/2? I don’t know what is possible to expect.
3) Did the EREV “limitations” show itself during the climb?
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:48 am
Lets bring on the Volt doubters. The car did not have a luggage rack on the roof and there were not 4 – 250 Lb adults in the car at the time.
On a serious note. Cool test and great story (even without the details). I wonder if this had to do with the gm-volt discussions of pikes peak about 1 year ago?
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:50 am
1,3 – Well obviously they didn’t want to answer that…
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:54 am
I really dont want to climb up Pikes Peak at anywhere close to 90mph, and look at all that snow!..
Not bad for a 75hp engine.
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:59 am
…“climbed the mountain faster than we anticipated,”
I would expect 55 to be the “target” MPH. And 50 to be the minimal “acceptable” MPH.
Have you ever heard of a car being put through the trials of the Volt? Dunk tank tests, 110 degree heat torture runs, and icey climbs to 14,000″ elevation,
=D~
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:08 am
Rashiid:
I have the feeling that GM is not going to release these specs, not because they are ashamed, but because there is now real competetive pressure no to tell every other manufacturer what your new car can do. Then they would have the target to beat, if only by a small amount.
I fully expect that all we will be getting until the release next November is articles like this, and I don’t blame them. After all, has any other manufacturer given out any real progress information on their electric vehicles like GM has with the Volt???
We know the Volt is real. We have a realease date. The rest will be a terrible waiting game for us……
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:08 am
About the snow. I’m more interested in how it performs in the snow then if it can go up the peak at 90mph. With the ground clearance the same as a corvette us Michiganders could be plowing with the Volt.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:14 am
I’d like to know if they were able to maintain the battery at 30% SOC, or if it was slowly dipping into the “red-zone”.
I’d also like to know which mode they had it in going up and down.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:14 am
Rashid, very cogent questions! I would imagine that the Volt could do 60 mph easily on the first seven miles which is about 6% grade, but I am very curious as to how it did on the 12 mile upper section which averages 7%. The US interstate system tries to limit grades to 4% but some of the older interstates do have slopes that are steeper, so the Volt should be golden on any Interstate.
The regeneration percentage has been a question I have searched for over the last 2 years and I have not found any real answers, except that the best guesses are between 30% and 60% with the latter being a bit more wistful than scientific.
On the EREV limitations, parts of the slope are in excess of 7%, which is hella steep, so if they were in CS mode, I have to imagine that 70 hp didn’t get them above 50 mph or so on the straight parts. But that is part of the problem, there are corners the whole way up and how fast did the CS mode recharge the battery while the driver was cornering at lower throttle levels?
Interesting stuff that will have a great deal to do with how the production Volt is perceived next year. Even though almost no one will be climbing Pikes Peak, that is what Car & Driver will be trumpeting about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_Peak_International_Hill_Climb
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:26 am
Point well taken, Jim I.
I am happy to hear it made up Pike’s Peak.
I live in CT though. I have only been up Pike’s Peak once in my life.
I suspect there is one more trip scheduled sometime in the future, but this time with the kids.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:27 am
Yup. Especially with the low-resistance tires.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:27 am
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:28 am
I look forward to a fuel cell version of the Volt. Altitude has no effect on their performance.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:31 am
If the brakes were cold on the way down, this means “most” of the gravitational energy was recovered into the batteries instead of being turned into heat by the brake pads.. after all the Volt cannot brake using engine compression.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:32 am
I once owned a 150 hp car (1986 Buick Century) one of the best cars I ever owned. But on steep upgrades, it ran out of power and even floorboarded, I could not maintain speed limit speed. There is a grade off of I-15 in Utah up to the top of the plateau, and if I remember it was between 10% and 15%, the steepest road I have ever been on. My fully loaded with kids and camping gear car slowed and slowed, down to about 20 MPH. Whether it was the grade, the high altitude, or a combination, the power was inadequate. It would be nice for an independent evaluator to repeat the Pike’s peak run, and a real challenge would be to put the Volt on that road in Utah.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:44 am
“cold on the way down”? – Where did you read that? He said “We were also pleasantly surprised with the temperature of our brakes”. We don’t know if they had break temperature monitoring all the way down or they simply reached in to feel them once they arrived at the bottom.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:47 am
does anyone know what the speed limit on that road is?
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:49 am
if engineers were involved, you can be assured they knew the temperature to a 1/10th of a degree at ALL times.
“pleasantly surprised” means they expected the brakes to be hotter.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:52 am
Herm, the amount of energy recovered/regenerated is a question that I have looked into a lot, and I hope that you are right, that MOST of the energy required to push the Volt up a hill can be recovered by regen instead of wasting energy heating your disc brakes, but I am not sure that that is the case. Like I said above, I googled this subject extensively and most of the sources thought that 30-50% was about all you could expect to regenerate but that might have been regarding level accelerating and braking, which may yield lower numbers. I did see one site that thought that 60% efficiency in regen was possible, but it didn’t cite any source. I should have Favorited the various sources of regen info but I failed to do so.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:54 am
The Volt will slow itself down before allowing the battery to go below 30%..
This also ties in with this question: Does the Volt have an emergency limp home mode that allows the battery to go significantly below 30%?.. will it void the warranty?
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:58 am
Not quite a Pike’s Peak climb but a home made electric drag racing — From Oregon Public Television: http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:00 am
“Cool test and great story (even without the details).” I agree! And for convenience, here’s Blanchard’s complete blog* I’ve highlighted a couple of key points…..
“By John Blanchard, Lead Calibration Engineer, Engine Generator for the Chevrolet Volt
“I was recently part of a team that took several Chevrolet Volt pre-production vehicles to the Pikes Peak Summit House (altitude: 14,110 ft. above sea level) in Colorado. Getting to the Summit House involved driving the Volt on a partially paved, twisting 19-mile highway. It’s a great test for any vehicle.
“Our team used this trip to evaluate a number of aspects of the Volt. On the trip up, we were making sure the Volt could climb the steep inclines and operate at a high altitude. The Volt was in extended-range mode for the most part of this segment which means an engine-generator is providing the electricity to power the vehicle. This mode kicks in when the lithium-ion battery level has been depleted. On the downhill segment, we were examining how well the regenerating feature of the Volt was adding electrical energy back into the lithium-ion battery.
“We were pleased with the results on both segments. The Volt climbed the mountain faster than we anticipated and the regenerative feature produced a good amount of energy back into the battery. We were also pleasantly surprised with the temperature of our brakes. The National Park Service at Pikes Peak said it was one of the coolest temperatures on brakes that they had ever seen.
“This is just one of a litany of tests we’re putting the Volt through, so stay tuned for more. In the meantime, we took some photos of our experience and they are posted below. Enjoy!
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:02 am
Really think it’s a big assumption? If the rate were 50 MPH would it be called “faster than we anticipated”. The statement “faster than anticipated” doesn’t promise anything. It’s a finding.
=D~
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Hill Climb record for Pikes Peak is a little more than 10 minutes. A mean speed of 75mph. I don’t think the Volt can do it at 90mph.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:09 am
Remember “comfortably below $20,000.00″?
I remember under $30k but not comfortably under $20k. The $30k number was also speculative and, if you were familiar with new product development, you knew that, like most cost numbers at the beginning of a project, it was probably wildly optimistic.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:10 am
The car did not have a luggage rack on the roof and there were not 4 – 250 Lb adults in the car at the time.
Just think of all that extra regen!
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Off Topic.
Toyota is doscovering that being top of the heap is like having a big ole target on you…
http://www.detnews.com/article/20091007/AUTO01/910070318/1148/rss25/Feds-probe-Toyota-Tundras
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:17 am
Reminds me of a 1982 Jeep CJ7 I used to have. 258 CID 6 and sadly mated to an automatic transmission with a rear end geared more for economy than power. Going up many hills in PA my top end would drop to 45 mph, tranny in 2nd, the emission-controlled 258 six strangled but screaming. Let’s hope the Volt does better.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:24 am
I thought the engineers said it could dip into the 30% range when needed, but would take the first opportunity to trickle charge it back to 30%. There would be very little, or possibly no opportunities on the climb for a trickle charge. So i’m wondering how low it would be allowed to go in this rare situation.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:29 am
I believe the limitation is how fast you can recharge the batteries and how much power the motor and electronics can handle… and there is also customer comfort, a high level of regen is said to be uncomfortable.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Why didn’t they give out any information? Is “no news” “good news”? I mean, horse drawn carriages have made it to the top of Pike’s Peak! So what!
How fast was the ascent? Was the heater used? What was the state of charge at each mile marker? What was the state of charge when they arrived back at the bottom? Anything at all would make this report meaningfull. But nothing? Not a single tidbit? Makes me wonder what went wrong!
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:32 am
Not sure on the speed limit, or even if they have paved the road yet. It used to be gravel on the top 12 miles, but I think Greenpeace convinced them to pave it, not sure why. But the paving wasn’t supposed to be done until 2010 or 2011, if memory serves. So traffic probably is doing 35 to 40 mph on the top 12 miles, not 90. And I think someone pointed out that the fastest rally car set a record of 75 mph so this is not a road that welcomes high speed driving.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Van,
The grade you are referring to is called “Parleys Summit” and yes, it is a significant climb. Long haul trucks are reduced to a crawl. I have been able to take many of my cars up that grade. To me, 75 hp seems way too small to run with 180-230 hp cars. There is hope in the fact that published hp ratings for cars are usually based on the engine running at a specific RPM. Depending on the shape of the RPM/HP curve, cars produce far less than their posted amount. The volt however, has the ability to keep the IC engine in it’s sweet spot without gear ratio limitations. This could go a long way to making the car “peppy” on its limited HP.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Excellent point…I want to see “real world” worse case…luggage rack on top, bike rack on trunk, trunk full of stuff, 4 large adults, and 10 years of age on the car (will have to wait for this one).
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:40 am
I’ve been wondering about those tires too as I’m in the Chicago area. Our
winters can be anything from mild to down right nasty. Low resistant tires
would seem to not fit well with snow or any icy conditions.
Just wondering…
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Herm,
You are absolutely correct regarding brake rotor temperature.
There are two ways to do it. One, of course, is to shoot the rotors with an infrared thermometer calibrated to a tenth of a degree (which most all of them are), and, the other way.
The latest software download from GM into the Genisys diagnostic scan system for ABS datastream monitoring contained (for Cadillac),
“Brake Rotor Temperature”. While this might either be sensed or calculated, it’s important to know if the rotors are very hot before applying a sudden repetition of tons of force to very hot rotors so that they do not warp.
The other main question, it seem to me, up above this position in the thread, is why GM does not reveal certain things right now (or in the future).
Two parts to that answer from what I know.
1. Software.
From the various studies of everything, software vastly improves or eliminates just about all concerns, by taking tremendous advantage of other circumstances, which brings on the interrelated second reason,
2. Prematurely saying anything that is at a developmental stage is not fair to the product, since, related to a final software version, that temporary condition is not valid.
And, a “premature general misunderstanding” versus the true final merits of the product will not only be wrong, but, seized-upon by technically-dishonest or vain commentary, which always will have a dysfunctional need to hold onto that premature incorrect idea. (Yes, other OEM’s ought to be very worried if they are not on the pathway to EREV!!)
So, unanswered questions simply may not have an answer at this time, or, an answer that is at all germane in the first place.
The cool thing about abandoning the socially-entrenched idea of “miles per gallon”, is, that in a few years, instead of people thinking
“Gosh, gasoline is 5 cents a gallon less elsewhere” [a few miles in the other direction],
it will be,
“Gasoline?” “Who cares about that nasty stuff?”
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:52 am
OFF Topic
THE VOLT WHEELS ARE ON THE ROAD!!!!
I know this first hand, in the last week the Volt is everywere here in Milford, Mi. I have seen one at a time many different places from on Main street, on Hickory ridge rd near the proving grounds and even yesterday on M59. I was turning on to M59 from Hickory Ridge when in the turn around to go west on M59 I seen a volt about 5 or 6 cars in front of me. The volt pulled into traffic quickly and took off like any normal car. (not like some golfcart) I pulled out and drove over 65 mph on M59 (55speed limit) but I never could catch it. I was hopefull someone in the sub I live in was taking it home. (a lot of people work at the proving grounds in the sub I live in) But no such luck. I also was standing on Main street when a volt went by it was very cool and made not a sound.
Today I was late for work because just as I was turning into my parking lot a Volt went by and turned From Commerce Rd onto Main Street I cut through and followed it down Main street to GM Rd and back to the enterence to the proving grounds.
Everytime I see a volt it is grey with black front and back. I always give a thumbs up out the window and beep the horn when I see a volt.
What I have learned:
1 The Volt can take off faster then my V6 2003 S10 PU.
2 I get very excited everytime I see Volt.
3 The volt looks sporty low and wide unlike any othe so called “green car”
4 The volt on the road looks bigger then I expiected. (when I have seen the Cruze it did not look as big maybe the black bumpers made it look bigger)
5 I give thumps up and beep everytime I see a volt but noone else seems to notice it.
6 Some how it all seems more real when you see a Volt on the road.
Living here for many years I still like to see new cars. But I never follow them. Or go out of my way to see them. But with the Volt I Try to catch everyone I see. I have not been this excited about a new car since my dad took me to see the 67 chev Impala fastback before it came out.
If anyone in Michigan wants to see a “Volts wheels on the road” come on over to Milford they are running all over the place. Most I have see are between 7 am and 9 am and between 4 pm and 6 pm.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:06 am
So what was the MPG while they were in generator mode?
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:10 am
@ Bearclaw
It’s got electric drive and regenerative braking.
That means almost linear acceleration and, more importantly, almost linear deceleration available on demand, which means it’ll have much superior, safer and controlled starting and stopping in poor weather and road conditions for those who are properly trained drivers.
From personal experience, I can say that in snow performance is one the major strengths of electric drive.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:25 am
“The National Park Service at Pikes Peak said it was one of the coolest temperatures on brakes that they had ever seen.” – John Blanchard
I’m guessing Blanchard must have stopped at a Park Service visitor’s center after driving back down, where he told them his brake temperature sensor readings. This is a seldom-mentioned side benefit of regenerative braking —minimal brake fading, wear, and/or overheating even in extremely steep mountain driving— way to go, Chevy Volt team!
PS: I’m also glad to learn they drove not just one but several Volts up Pike’s Peak!
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:26 am
I think that most reviews of hybrids have shown that they do worse, mileage wise, in the cold. All cars do worse as it gets colder, but hybrids do significantly worse. Both the Prius and Ford Fusion Hybrid have seen their mileage numbers drop in cold weather.
I think that the Volt’s EREV will not perform as well in MN or MI winters as it will in more moderate climates. Flip side of the coin, FL or TX summers will probably cut its range a bit as well, though probably not as much as an International Falls winter.
I think, therefore, that Volts should be sold in Virginia at greatly reduced prices because we have the proper climate to allow the Volt to really show itself at its best!
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Another official “sighting” report!
“THE VOLTS WHEELS ARE ON THE ROAD” is never off topic!
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:26 am
I’ve driven Pike’s Peak several times in the past year. I think the posted speed is 45 and while there are several places where one could drive faster there are also many tight hairpin turns where you wouldn’t want to go nearly that fast.
There are so many steep downhill grades that the park rangers often check cars’ brake temperature at the halfway point to prevent accidents.
I’m very interested in the regenerative braking. As long as the battery is below full charge you can just “ride the brakes” without any worry of overheating because the energy is being regenerated by the motor into the battery and the actual brake pads are not being used.
When the battery is full, however, what do you do? You don’t have the option of “downshifting into 1st” like a ICE car and the brake pads could overheat. Is there a brake temperature gauge standard to tell you to stop the car and let let them cool down?
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:26 am
We continue to follow the migration of the VOLT herd to the most fascinating places… Surefooted like a mountain goat, the VOLT quickly winds its way up towards the top of Pike’s Peak.
Moving in single file, the herd runs fearlessly, knowing that without a 220v plug nearby for nourishment, the Tesla will avoid such a dangerous trek.
One can only imagine the joy of riding one of these magnificent beasts to the top of the precipice.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:29 am
That’s because they use electric drive. Oh, isn’t the Volt already 100% electric drive, which is not affected by altitude? The first vehicle to the summit of Everest is likely to have electric drive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZreNS83JKM
How do think that does in snow?
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:29 am
It sounds like one set of brakes could last the lifetime of the car! Add that to the plus side when arguing Volt costing vs regular ICE …
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:33 am
“I look forward to a fuel cell version of the Volt”
You must be using binoculars.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:34 am
Maybe I’m oversimplifying things a bit, but why not put a button somewhere that says “Big Hill Coming Up!”
Push that button and the motor revs a little and cranks some more juice into the battery to keep it from depleting.
Also, I’m sure the car will have GPS, will it be smart enough to know you’re on your way to a steep road and to give the battery a little extra charge before you get there?
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:35 am
#1 Rashiid Amul:
If GM were to answer questions like that right now, then that could become the expectation of the public. It might also give away too much info to the growing number of competitive electric cars. So such disclosures could be a big mistake.
This is just a guess, but I suspect at this stage Volts are being tested and refined. So its quite possible that the answers to those questions could improve once the engineers have their initial performance data and then get the cars back to the lab for refinements and fine tuning.
Its very cool to see the Volts at the top of Pikes Peak.
Great post Lyle!
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:37 am
For this to be a good ‘test’, they would have to compare to another $40k car (like a BMW 318i).
Giving us absolutely zero data is worse than just testing without the blog teaser. (Well not exactly zero. It *did* make it to the top of Pike’s Peak.)
Not exactly a huge feat. However, nay-sayers can no longer speculate that it can’t be done.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:38 am
… and not just on Pike’s Peak, while they’re at it.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Perhaps that’s one of the “mind boggling” OnStar apps from yesterday’s article.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:42 am
With a depleted battery (which you would most likely have starting down from such a height), that would be a lot of energy to absorb. I wonder if the theoretical downgrade required to recharge the pack to maximum allowable level really exists.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:44 am
There’s also a limitation in that rolling resistance and aero losses are experienced in both uphill and downhill direction. Regen can’t do anything about that.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:45 am
The range extender is still affected by altitude, just like any other gas engine. Sorry, IANAAE (I am not an automotive engineer) so I can’t give you specifics.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:48 am
A simple “inclinometer” can do the same thing automatically. I think GM already had those installed on Hummer H2’s, so they should be sitting in a parts bin somewhere. Maybe it was the Toyota FJ. I can’t remember.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:48 am
We’ve discussed cold weather nearly as much as Pike’s Peak on this site. I think it’s encouraging to see the Volt at the top of Pike’s Peak in the snow. Yes, mileage drops for all vehicles at extreme temperatures, but that’s a long way from a vehicle being disabled by those extremes.
Let’s see a BEV tackle extreme cold in an independent test … which Lyle will likely be able to provide from his Mini-E sometime this winter in NY. I expect this will be an eye-opener for the BEV favoring Volt detractors.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:49 am
“Most” would seem overly optimistic. There are too many variables, and different conditions will give different results, but at a minimum, in addition to regen inefficiencies, you need a certain amount of energy to overcome drag and frictional losses on the way down as well on the way up. Brakes are not the only thing that gets heated on the way down.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:50 am
I hope one of the test vehicles is carrying the camera crew and they are filming all of this for future tv commercials.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Hey Rashid,
you don’t have to go to Pikes Peak to test your Volt. Try Mt. Washington instead. It’s not as high, but much closer to home, and quite steep!
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:51 am
The speed limit on Pikes Peak is 10 MPH in some sections. They say give yourself 2 hours to get from bottom to top and back down (not counting stops). 19 miles one way. I certainly hope 10 MPH is not the mark GM was shooting for.
Picture http://www.americansouthwest.net/colorado/pikes-peak/glen-cove_l.html
FYI-During the race there are some sections that the racers hit 100+ MPH.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:52 am
It will be a great day when members of this site can actually own Volts and report their experiences, here.
Hopefully, at least one will live near enough to Colorado to try this for him/herself …
Until then, there will always be someone who says “GM is lying,” (or withholding information), or the ever-popular “It wasn’t a fair test.”
I can hardly wait.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Any data made public is useful to their competition. Other pre-production cars have way less public disclosure than Volt.
It *is* pre-production. We are a full year away from actual production line crank-up. Some data points discovered now will change due to tweaks made after real-world testing.
Suppose it ran out of power before making it to the top? Something that serious would have to be fixed before production.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Do you put Granny Clampett’s rocker on the back too?
I think ensuring the car performs well for a long time is a big part of the work going on now.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:03 am
I’m still waiting to hear that Road & Track and/or Car and Driver has received one of the IVers to do some testing of their own. I would prefer to see their test results in print.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Don’t forget that the Volt pack has active cooling and internal controls; and ought to be highly resistant to regeneration-induced heating (I meant to do that
).
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:04 am
If the Volt were designed so that it could go 60 MPH on every stretch of road in America under every condition then it would be way over-designed. The maximum grade for an interstate is 6% in mountainous areas. A 10% – 15% grade is crazy. Next someone will say that they once transported carpet and the Volt should be able to go up hills at 80 MPH with rolls of carpet strapped to the roof. (I use the carpet example because a couple of years ago I saw carpet on the roof snap the axle of a Toyota pickup — carpet weighs a lot).
The Volt is a small four seat sedan best used for commuting and local driving. Let’s not stretch the performance parameters beyond the purpose for which the car is designed.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:04 am
I figure on putting a set of “Hakka’s” for the winter and keep the super efficent rubber for summer.
http://www.nokiantires.com/tyre?id=11949&group=1.01&name=Nokian+Hakkapeliitta+R
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:09 am
MPG going up and down a 7% grade (about 30 miles) is a pretty narrow and useless data point.
The point of driving up Pikes Peak is to make sure you have enough power to do it, not, how efficiently it was done.
From wikipedia Pikes Peak International Hill Climb:
The Pikes Peak International Hill Climb (PPIHC), also known as the The Race to the Clouds, is an annual automobile and motorcycle hillclimb to the summit of Pikes Peak in Colorado, a distance of 19.99 km (12.42 miles) over 156 turns, climbing 1,439 meters (4,721 ft) from the start at Mile 7 on Pikes Peak Highway at 2,862 meters (9,390 ft) on grades averaging 7% over both gravel and paved sections.
2003: Jeri Unser broke the Electric Vehicle record with a time of 14:33.12, in the Compact Power ER3. The previous year’s electric record was set by Tim Eckert at 15:18.6 in the car’s predecessor, the ER2.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Larry:
I think I read somewhere that, in the unlikely event that regen on a downgrade fully charges the battery, there is some kind of a gizmo to dump the excess energy into the air in the form of heat. Which is what the service brakes do, after all. Sort of like the “Jake Brake” on a big truck. It slows the rig down without frying the wheel brake linings/pads. It would make sense to me. If you have the capability, why not take advantage of it?
Can a Prius/Insight do that? Does anybody know?
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:13 am
I wish I lived in Milford.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Starcast:
Thanks for the very cool report. Keep ‘em coming. +1
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:14 am
I am assuming that I will still have to buy snow tires for the Volt. Yes, it may make a small difference in the AER, but I would rather give up a bit of range than have the car slide into a ditch!!!!!
On the other side, the weight and placement of the battery pack may mean that I do not have to put bags of rock salt in the trunk for weight over the rear wheels……..
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Rashiid–
These are excellent questions. Without knowing the answers, the value of the post is knowing that somehow the Volts made it to the top, where it snows, and that is nice. Most likely they drove up there in the Volts, which is good as compared to being carried up in a trailer, although even that is not absolutely definitively stated
Anything more is pretty much pure speculation.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:15 am
ziv:
One word. “California.”
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:16 am
But a finding of what? Say Blanchard is a pessimist and only anticipated the Volt being able to climb the peak at 25 mph and they actually managed to get 30 mph. That’s “faster than anticipated”.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:18 am
I wouldn’t expect anything like that until maybe next summer.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Jackson:
Hubble telescope, LOL.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:23 am
CorvetteGuy:
Hey, I think you’re in the wrong business. “You’re a poet, and don’t know it.” as we used to say when we were kids. One of the few things I can remember from that long ago, LOL.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Dr. Dennis:
Great report! I love the photo. I swear, I don’t know how you do it.
+ 10,000, LOL.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Never heard of the “Jake Brake,” but diesel electric locomotives use dynamic braking (drive motors act as generators, loading a resistor array, I presume).
How simple would it be for the Volt to have a big @$$ resistor with fins on it somewhere near the radiator’s cooling fan?
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:32 am
I’ve been saying this for a long time, tie the NAV system into the control software so the car ‘knows’ where it’s going.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:36 am
The Volts does not have resistors to dump the excess regen energy, GM has mentioned in the past that they only charge the battery to 80% to allow room for that extra electricity.. I always thought that was a hokey explanation.. not too many people live on top of Pikes Peak.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Dave K-
Actually, all new cars with new platforms go through this kind of road and torture testing. It’s pretty common. It’s how all car magazines get lots of their spy photos. Usually the cars have to wear a bunch of camo, but the Volt doesn’t because everybody already knows what it looks like. Not just GM, but all the companies do this.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:48 am
It would be interesting if GM could use a special formula long duration engine oil in the Volt.. something that would last a few years if the genset did not accumulate too many hours.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Can the Volt carry a stack of 4X8 plywood? .. I’m sure someone will ask this one seriously.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:54 am
I wonder if that 19 mile trek up the hill in CS mode will count as 19 miles run against the batt pack…..
Hmmm……
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:56 am
So if a couple of your 400lb bros sit in the back the genset would run all the time?
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Jackson…
I guarantee that you have HEARD a “Jake brake”.
Think big Semi truck slowing down a hill making a very loud roaring sound… THAT is the Jake Brake ‘choking’ the engine causing the truck to slow.
—————————————————————————-
It’s really pretty simple, IF (and that is a pretty big if) the battery were to top up on a long down hill the car would simply use the conventional brakes to retain control.
Making you absolutely correct, since a brake rotor is basically a mechanical resistor/heat fin.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:57 am
The “Jake Brake” (named after Jacobs, one of the companies that market them) is really called a compression brake. On smaller trucks the system simply closes the exhaust pipe with a flapper valve. This in turn kills combustion and turns the engine into an air compressor and creates engine braking. Imagine switching the key off on your car as you go down hill. Better systems on larger trucks actually close the valves in the head and these systems are much more effective. Usually you can close off either groups of two or three cylinders at a time, so the driver can control how much engine braking effect they get. The down side is the noise. This is that loud exhaust blapping you hear as heavy tractor trailers are braking or descending steep hills. Sometimes in residential areas, you will see signs telling truckers not to use their Jake Brakes because of the noise.
There is no doubt that the Volt has a big resistor to waste off excess energy during regen braking down hills. The battery can only take in energy at a limited rate, the rest has to be wasted. This is why Gen 2 really needs to have ultra capacitors in conjunction with the battery. The ultra caps can soak up as much energy as the generator wants to give them at any rate, and then it can transfer the power to the battery at slower rate when you’re driving on level ground, stopped or accelerating. This will allow a much greater recapture of energy during regenerative braking.
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:03 am
As visionary as I am, it only seems that I am using binoculars …
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:04 am
You should carry a camera and share over in the forums! Thanks for the update. It’s cool to know that the Volt is really being put through everyday driving and not just test tracks.
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Oh geez, why not throw an Airstream trailer behind too!
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:15 am
I live in Denver and have gone to the summit several times. NEVER would I take my Buick or Chevy. That road is murderous and the three hours to go 19 miles horrendous. This is more an accomplishment than first comes across in the post. There’s little air up there for gasoline firing going up and braking on the way down in a normal car is he_ _ on the system. I take the Cog Railroad to go up and the savings on wear and tear is well worth the $25 ticket price to the top and back.
This car is ready for prime time. Go Chevy Volt.
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED.
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:19 am
I do have camera, but I forget to use it. When someone in my Sub brings one home I will try to get a pic of it.
If I learn something new when I see some more I will post about it. But I am not going to to post 2 or 3 times a day that I just seen another Volt.
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:22 am
I’ll take mine in bright International Orange please…
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:25 am
That was my understanding as well.
But what I really want to know is why they didn’t start with a Volt that was completely in extended-range mode before starting the climb. That would have been the “proper” way to do this test.
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Like 50 MPG on the ICE?
I believe the lowest price that was announced by a GM exec was mid 20’s, and that was hardly at the “beginning” of the project. As I recall, GM had already had Volt commercials on TV for quite some time.
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:34 am
MRB
They sound like good tires for all weather. They have low roll resistance.
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Something to help recharge your Volt after your personal Pike’s Peak run – solar roof shingles from Dow – available next year:
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/idUSTRE5944NP20091006
Dow indicates they can be installed over existing asphalt shingles, and will require no additional installer expertise…
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:37 am
I wonder at what C rate the brake regen was dumping juice back into the batt pack. We all know that going over 1C for charge is a negatice hit. 1C of ~40Ah @ 360VDC = 14.4KW
So at this rate brake regen IS a negative hit on the batt pack.
Hmmmm…..
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Congrats on confirming this – I live in Seattle and we often climb the passes on the way to see relatives.
Now if they would only redesign the hood – the new hood doesn’t work for me. I t is like looking at the old Equinox model vs the new Equinox model. All of Chevy’s new desings have had th hood line disappear from the side view.
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Excellent point. All this research and testing would make for some great ads!
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:56 am
GXT
I think they wanted to see what the starting of the CS mode would feel like while the car was under the stress of climbing Pikes Peak.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
EVO
Great link. I had no idea!!!
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Touche…
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
I wonder if it can cary my trailer of MGD up to the cabins.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
I use beer goggles.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
A rambling on power fade:
The important issue on the hill climb is power fade. . . if, during CS mode (ICE running) the battery “buffer zone” gets depleted there will be a substantial drop in peak power available at that point.
111 kW (149 hp) electric motor
53 kW (71 hp) generator
149 hp – 71hp = 78 hp (58kw) gap
If the “buffer zone” is 5% of the battery capacity, then that’s .05 x 16kwh = .8 kwh. That’s enough capacity to “fill in” for the missing 78hp (58 kw) for 50 seconds. (.8/58 = .0138hr, .0138 x 60 minutes = .82 minutes, .82 minutes = 50 seconds)
In other words, (assuming a 5% battery buffer zone) if you were demanding all 149 hp from the volt in CS mode, you could do that for 50 seconds and then the car would “fade away” to 71 hp.
Of course, anytime you are demanding less than 71 hp, then the generator has a chance to refill the buffer zone ,.. but I could see the volt not having enough time to catch up during some driving scenarios with only a 5% (or smaller) buffer zone. (If your were demanding an additional 39hp (1/2 of 78) for a total of 110hp, then you could run like this for 100 seconds solid or 1 minute and 40 seconds. I could see needing 110 hp for extended periods on the volt on long uphill grades, especially if high head winds were involved. It is a 3,500lbish car, after all.
It will be interesting to see how GM works this problem. I would assume it will be with a bigger buffer zone than what’s been discussed. For safety’s sake, I could see GM needing at least a 7% or even a 10% battery buffer zone. But the bigger the battery buffer zone, the more likely it will hurt battery life and mpg in CS mode.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
The engine produces 75 horsepower? If so it would have lost about 31 horsepower at 14100 ft. elevation. This means you would be driving a 3000+ car with 44 horsepower. Roughly like driving a loaded down tractor trailer rig.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Jackson:
Right.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Regarding this post. For me it is the final bit of news that tells me I will have no problems going across the mountains of PA on I-81 and I actually dare to hope that the regen braking will be a noticable help with the total MPG of the entire trip.
Those mountains are nothing compared to Pikes Peak but there is a lot of up and down driving which should make regen a major plus.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Herm:
Well maybe, if you started out on top of Pikes Peak with a flat battery, there’s not enough regen on the way down to max it out. It seems counter intuitive, but I suppose they’ve simulated it all.
Or how about from the top of Wolf Creek Pass to “downtown Pagosa Springs”, with apologies to C.W. McCall, good buddy.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Many commute from Park City to Salt Lake City and drive “Parleys” daily. Drivers that have the horsepower love to speed up to the top of the summit. Having Lyle drive up I-15 would be a perfect review location.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
MuddyRoverRob:
Right. +1.
Isn’t that what people do in The Great White North? Have a spare set of winter wheels with snow tires?
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
______________________________________________________
“Chevy Volt Climbs Pikes Peak”
———
Wow…that is indeed a very symbolic milestone for us Voltec Heads especially considering the numerous back and forth discussions on this site speculating how (or if) the Volt would perform on the infamous Pikes Peak.
Way to go Voltec Team!!!
Video to follow?
______________________________________________________
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Jason:
I’ll give you a +1 for that. I’m just teasing. Nice comments on allcarselectric.com, BTW. Thanks for supporting it in its infancy.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Maybe GM should team up with Amsoil. Although it’s kind of expensive, they claim you can go 25,000 miles between charges. BUT they advise to still change it every 12 months even if you haven’t driven that far. A Volt needs the opposite features, less miles, but longer time between changes (like 3 years or so).
Volt owners would surely appreciate changing their oil once every 3 years and the brakes lasting perhaps 3 times as long as well. Going to the gas station once every 3 months or so. Far less maintenance hassles in general. No transmission to worry about maintaining or wearing out ever and replacing. Much quieter, especially at low speeds. Much smoother because of the electric motor with 100% torque all the time and no shifting.
It’s the first true luxury car.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
jbfalaska:
Hey, great to se your name here. Did you happen to see the link here, yesterday or today, to the Deutschebank story about the cost of the Iraq war being $1.5 trillion? They calculate that if this cost was “internalized” into the price of gas it would add $0.54/gal. I thought of you when I saw it. I think that’s light, and that your $10 is a lot closer to the truth. Even so, it’s nice to know that influential business people are starting to think that way.
I think you’ll soon be seen as a prophet. Of course a friend once asked me, “Do you remember waht they used to do to prophets?” Too much truth can be a dangerous thing, LOL.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
StevePA:
Oh yeah, that’s what I’ve been waiting for. Thanks for the cool link.
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October 7th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Thanks, guys! I learned something. Yes, I HAVE heard Jake Brakes (I used to live near a four-lane intersection at the bottom of a hill).
I absolutely agree with DaV8or about the ultra capacitors (or if that can’t be done for whatever reason, a small supplemental bank of something supporting high charge/discharge rates, and greater cycle life than the bulk of the LG Chem Li/Ion cells. Per unit, ultracaps or their alternatives would be more expensive, but there could be fewer of them; and they would make the cheaper Li/Ions go farther: saving money in the long run).
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
A big congrats to VOLT. Now we’re talking. Couple things. My references (2003) to regen braking efficiency for charging report a 40%-50% range of recovery. That portion of the PP climb competition at 7% exceeds the 6% limitation of the interstate highway system. A really super confirmation of the ER concept.
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Or my ex-wife!
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Nah. Just following up on the “wild kingdom” spotting of herds of VOLTs.
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
would you be willing to pay $5k for those ultracaps and the special inverter it would require?
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
While Jim wrestles with the wild Volt herd, you’re enjoying a Daiquiri in your tent …
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Taking regen brakes into account, wouldn’t it be funny if, since they said most of the trip up was in charge sustaining mode, they reached the ground once again and has something like 20 miles of EV range?
Looking on their website…the pike’s peak drive is a 38 mile round trip. I’ll assume exactly 19 miles up and 19 down. If a Volt enters pike’s peak at the beginning of charge sustaining mode, and is supposed to get 50 MPG, getting 19 MPG should be easy.
So they’ll be able to say they did then entire thing with 1 gallon of gas (possibly less, very likely less if you TRIED) and gained 20 EV miles when they were done. Kinda cool.
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
CIGS hits the mainstream!! HOO-rah!
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
I wonder if it would change anyone’s opinion of the Volt if they found out that it completed the second half of the hill climb at a maximum speed of 11 miles per hour?
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
… the higher voltage is another reason to hope for an alternative to ultracaps. Any power supplementation bank will require another channel of control, which will add cost. I’m thinking most people won’t want to pay for it … for an early Volt (even Gen II is pretty early, in the scheme of things).
However, this technique would also make for an incredibly hot performing Sport Voltec offering. Things done in the beginning for power (supercharging, multiple valves, electronic ignition) have had a way of ‘filtering down’ to improve economy in less expensive vehicles, over time. Eventually, having two types of energy storage (small high performance expensive / large high energy capacity, cheaper) will become a standard feature, given the wide range of potential benefits.
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Usually 1C is maximum, since the pack is 16kwh then 16kw in 1 hour would be the 1C rate.. obviously the pack only uses half of this so it could only do max regen braking for 30 minutes, assuming you started with an empty SOC pack.
The potential energy in a 4700lb (1000lbs cargo) Volt descending 14,000 ft is 24kwh, there is no way the Volt battery can hold this so it must dump the excess heat into the brakes. BTW, it would also take 24kwh for the same car to go up.
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
I am not slamming Toyota, I just noticed that it seems that when GM was top of the heap..they carried the target for years..now Toyota is, and all of a sudden…Whamo..
thank you, here’s the target.
3 years ago, you heard nothing bad even though there were massive recalls, but if GM had the wrong colour trim, it was all over the news.
I do not mind negatives, I also post GM news, and other items I feel may be of interest on this forum.
see here too for something re Prius.
http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/archive/2009/10/07/toyota-s-prius-threatened-by-probe.aspx
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Ya, Silvo. I’ve been up it a few times. Gorgeous place. I saw a live video cam this morning from there. It was snowing.
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Oh sure, Ziv. Put a plug in for your state.
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Perhaps GM will use an inclinometer to limit maximum power consumption.. so you dont run into power fade.
If the computer detects an consistently aggressive driver abusing the Volt in this way it could also bump up the CS point up 5% (reducing your all-electric range) and thus reserving that extra power to prevent power fade.. this would be an example of a computer that learns your driving behavior and adjusts its program, I believe GM does this already with some of its auto transmissions.
The opposite is also possible, the computer may unlock extra SOC if it learns you are a gentle driver.
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Today, off topic, from wsj “Mr. Henderson also announced that Mark LaNeve, GM’s sales chief and longtime executive, is leaving for a job at an unidentified company.”
———————————————
Say it ain’t so Fritz. Mark has been a cheery brightness on so many dark days.
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
If a power supplementation bank (which I sometimes call a “surge buffer”) is able to allow cheaper cells to be used in the much larger Li/Ion pack, it could go a long way towards paying for itself.
The LG Chem cells have to be capable of sufficient power while storing sufficient energy overall. If the surge buffer is able to provide the power, all the Li/Ion cells really need to do is store energy. In most driving, this means that Li/Ion would be charged and discharged once during a cycle. Regeneration would be handled completely within the surge buffer. In the rare case of a long downhill grade, energy could be fed back to the Li/Ion storage pack at a relatively benign rate (or wasted through a resistor if absolutely necessary).
It would greatly benefit New GM Co to develop this surge buffer, since it could provide the capability for a non-plug-in hybrid when used by itself (and ought to perform better in that role than NimH).
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October 7th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
With the Volt using the regenerative braking to do most of the stopping most of the time, instead of making the brake pads do the work, it seems like they would have a marketing advantage:
– GM Volt brakes are SAFER because they (almost) never overheat!
– GM Volt brakes will (probably) last the life of the car and never need changing.
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October 7th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
It does seem like some kind of synthetic oil would be a no-brainer, and I’ll be a little surprised if the Volt’s range extender doesn’t come from the factory with it (and already broken in on a dynamometer, also. Come to think of it, isn’t a genset a kind of built-in dynamometer? This could make factory break in even easier).
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October 7th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
I can think of lots of interesting things to see on this test, but that is VERY low on the list, and certainly less valuable that a run up to the peak entirely on ICE. But assuming that was true, then why wouldn’t they redo the test completely in extended-range mode afterwards as that is the most interesting and valuable part of this test?
It makes you wonder if GM really is only moderately testing the Volt (e.g. this test, the “cold weather” testing in only moderately cold weather with cars that have been stored inside, etc.).
If they are doing the proper, more stressful tests, then why don’t they report it? Wouldn’t it have sounded much better to say the Volt made it all the way to the top of the peak entirely on charge sustaining mode? That the Volt’s started and flawlessly and got their expected range after sitting outside in -40 degree weather?
It they are doing the stressful tests but only talking about the less-stressful ones, then it must not be doing well. If they aren’t bothering to do the stressful tests at all, that also speaks volumes.
The “we set low expectations of the Volt in a moderately difficult situation and it ‘Exceeded all expectations’…. plus it did REALLY well on this unrelated and trivial aspect (handling, ride quality, etc.) but even that will be better in the final car” PR is getting a bit old. I’d think that even less discerning people are going to see through that soon.
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October 7th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
I understand that GM has tested the Volt in Death Valley for heat resistance, but heat resistance with humidity is a whole ‘nother thing.
cough Georgia cough
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October 7th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Glass half empty?
Where is Tag today?
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October 7th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I’ll say it again: Pike’s Peak is an easy climb for the Volt. The road up to this peak does not allow for high speed driving. I’m guessing 45 MPH tops.
To be clear, it’s the combination of higher speed and steep uphill driving that may cause an issue, and the issue is that you will have to slow down.
I’ve driven in 40+ states, and the worst road I’ve seen for the Volt is heading west up out of Death Valley. You start out below sea level and climb to 6000+ feet of altitude over a 16-mile stretch of road. At the bottom, you can go pretty fast, maybe 80 MPH if you want to chance getting a ticket. Toward the top, there are curves and switch-backs, but I seem to remember staying above 55 MPH most of the way.
Someone saw multiple Volts testing at Death Valley here:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/09/25/chevy-volt-prototype-fleet-spotted-in-nevada/
Why doesn’t GM release this???
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October 7th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Regarding cold weather tests, weren’t the Malivolt mules tested in Northern Michigan last winter? It gets to be -20 deg F in the UP.
Regarding extended range, GM said it was in RE mode most of the time
“Blanchard confirmed “the Volt was in extended-range mode for the most part of this segment.””
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October 7th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
The road I was referring to is SR 143 from Parowan to Brian’s Head. It has parts at 13% grade and is not recommended for RV’s or Semi-trucks. Since my Buick had difficulty, it would be nice to see how the electric motor with high torque would handle it. I expect it would do itself proud, but until we get some independent evaluations, we are in the dark.
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October 7th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
GM flunkies betta make that Regen Braking DRIVER ADJUSTABLE. If they don’t I will take on each one of those so-called engineers in a Steel-Cage death match. Do This.
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October 7th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
A true test is to run the cars in the Rocky Mountains through the winter. There you will get well below freezing temperatures added to the climbs and downhills to test the car further. Having cold temperatures as in 20F is not really cold, it’s cool. For many of us further north above and below the 49th parallel, -20C(-4F) is cold and will make starting your car sometimes difficult in the morning. So when these tests are on going, leave the car in the cold overnight and try starting it then in the morning. There are 80 cars for extreme testing, test them then in extreme conditions so that everyday conditions would not be much of a concern to the buyer.
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
“… There is no doubt that the Volt has a big resistor to waste off excess energy during regen braking down hills. The battery can only take in energy at a limited rate, the rest has to be wasted.”
I doubt it.
The battery can charge as fast as it can discharge, and the Volt has a *huge* battery. Resistors are unnecessary because the Volt has conventional brake rotors (like an ICE car), as well as the regenerative braking.
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
RB:
statik might have a bit different take on that, LMAO.
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
maybe they are going viral?
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Interesting … The Volt has an Atkinson cycle ICE. I wonder if it is affected by altitude to the extent that we are accustomed (given that the intake valve stays open so much longer).
The Prius also has an Atkinson cycle ICE. Do any Prius owners have observations regarding this?
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
The motor generates electricity. So if needed it would go to a higher sweet spot. Its the electric motor that delivers the power to the drive wheels.
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Someone posted above that there are limit signs saying 40-45 miles per hour.
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
“.. after all the Volt cannot brake using engine compression.”
Has GM told us that?
It is theoretically possible for the drive motor to regenerate into the generator (the one physically connected to the ICE) while decelerating instead of regenerating into the battery. The generator would then act like a motor and consume that power by turning the ICE, thus braking using engine compression. After all, the generator is already set up to do this to a lesser extent during ICE starting.
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
I also doubt it, GM has never mentioned or showed it.. or even talked about it. It would have limited utility.. not many people make the Pikes Peak trip.
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Jackson,
I’m here wading through all the posts. Of COURSE the glass is over half full – they made it to the top and there was no mention of a tow truck.
All the speculation that they are going easy on the testing is just that – speculation. Why should GM “put it all out there”, for the competition to peruse? Still plenty of time before Independence Day of 2010!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Dave G
A better question is “Why does GM release anything?”
Just a thought.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
The shakeup continues..
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Jim I
Well said and way too accurate (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Sigh…
Pikes peak highway has an average angle of 4 degree
Power Required (Speed) = Speed * (Sin (4) * Mass * Gravity + Mass * Gravity * Rolling Resistance + Air Resistance) + Losses
Mass * Gravity= 3,500 lbs = 15,600 N
Rolling Resistance = 0.01 pavement, 0.030 gravel
Air Resistence= 2.7 m2 * .5 * 1.23 (density of air) * Speed^2 * .27 (Cd) = 0.448 * Speed ^2
Check for Speed= 45 mph = 20.1 m/s
Pavement
Power = 20.1 * ( 1088 N + 156 N + 181 N) + Losses= 28.64 kW + Losses
Gravel
Power= 20.1 * (1088 N + 312 N + 181 N) + Losses= 31.7 kW + Losses
Seems like the generator provides sufficient gap between average power required on Pikes peak Highway to have no significant power fade provided the speed limit is maintained and -fast- acceleration is not required.
In a more realisitic example, consider a 2 degree angle on a major freeway traveling at 65 mph already and an acceleration of 1 mph per second?
Speed= 29 m/s
A/S= .447
Power = 29 * ( 544N + 156 N + 367 N + 15,600 N * .447/9.8) + Losses = 51.5 kW + Losses
If we assume losses around 30% of power, Power from battery = 14 kW. The 10 second burn up to 75 mph (going uphill) would only take a very small fraction from the battery, around .1 kWh (again assuming losses in drawing power from the battery).
Just seems to me that power fade, for a normal user, will not be an issue in a properly functioning Volt. Yes, the Volt will not be able to race a BMW or heck, even a Civic with Top Gear at the helm… but ummmm, Volt DNE Track Toy. Pikes peak probably has more to do with verifying the altitude performance of the ICE, and the altitude performance of the switch rather than verifying a power issue.
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I remember way back when, when we said how hard the wait was going to be when it was 30 months to go……………..
But this last year really will be a killer!!!!!
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October 7th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Jim I
The wait will be over before we know it! (I know that that’s not true, but just had to say it). As you said, relative to where we started, it’s almost HERE.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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October 7th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Granted, it’s not “both challenges at once,” but as I recall, the Volt team did do extensive cold-weather testing on the mules last winter in Canada.
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October 7th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Wouldn’t surprise me a bit.
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October 7th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Hey…. Somethin’s smelling a little fishy here….
We (the American People without so much as a ‘please’) gave a bunch of bailout ‘loans’ to these guys so that they could change the way they do business and manufacture the ‘car of the future’…. Now these guys are ever so s..l..o..w..l..y.. walking out the back door before that dream is realized…..
Are they getting some of them there “Golden Parachutes” on their way out? Huh?!
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October 7th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Someone has to be glass half-empty, what with all the overflowing glasses around here
According to GM-Volt.com:
The US testing involved, “…chassis control development including stability control and braking. Battery work was not the primary task…”
whereas:
“In Canada, the focus of the testing was the propulsion system. The cars were kept indoors overnight, and then they were evaluated to see how they started and how they ran after a cold soak.
According to Voltec team leader Greg Ciesel, temperatures the mules were exposed to were “very much below zero,” and even at the Milford proving grounds “we got to probably minus 10 or 15 degrees F.”
As anywone who lives in a cold climate knows, running a car in -15 is much different than running car that has sat outisde in -15 which is MUCH different than running a car that has sat outside overnight in -15.
Plus a lot of Canada (and I bet some of the central northern US) calls -15 a moderate winter day.
It was a soft test.
As for Pikes Peak:
The “most” of 19 Miles could be as little as 10. Regardless, if they were actually setting out to test the worst-case (and not even an unrealistic case) they would have been on the ICE before they started.
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October 7th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Remember the mule test drive Lyle was involved in several months ago? The mule climbed a straight uphill roller coaster-like incline at 50 MPH. Yes, the run was short. But this displayed the capability of the Voltec system. The Pike’s Peak test is more about keeping the support ICE running strong in the thin air of high altitude. And less about sweating the demand on the electric motor. Taking on the the climb and winning is a promising result.
=D~
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October 7th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Thanks for the info DaV8or. I’ll need to vacation in Death Valley more often.
=D~
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October 7th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
What’s up with all this talk about driving in the snow? If it snows, my VOLT is staying in the garage where it belongs! (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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October 7th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
“It is theoretically possible for the drive motor to regenerate into the generator….?”
Yes, but only if the controller is designed to switch disssipative loads (large resistors) to load the generator/motor in this mode (i.e., replacing the battery load) after the battery is no longer able to accept additional charge. My guess is GM has designed it this way rather than by using less-predictable engine compression braking. I may be wrong.
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October 7th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Care to run that last one (2 deg, 65 to 75 mph) with 800lbs of payload (4 big mac eatin’ adults) and 25mph headwind?
/My point about power fade is not whether it’s an issue that people would normally have to deal with. It’s the abnormal situation that turns into an accident and a lawsuit that’s the concern.
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October 7th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
GM’s Top Sales Executive Steps Down
I had a feeling after Bob Kruse left others might follow. There is scoop they aren’t giving Lyle.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/gms-top-sales-executive-steps-down/
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October 7th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
HEY!
HEY YOU!
Stop looking over there!
Look here! Right here at the nice pretty volt. Just keep looking riiiight here at the Volt. Thaaaat’s right.
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October 7th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
What I remember, and I’m not taking notes so I could be very wrong, was that Lutz, around the time the concept was introduced, saying that they’d wanted to get it under $30k, as in $29.99k. After that it was more or less all downhill.
But this is so typical. Didn’t Fisker say something like $65K? Didn’t Tesla say something like $85K? It’s almost always works this way. And not only with new technology. I’ve had customers roll their own because they thought our offerings were way too expensive, and at the end of the day it costs them double. It’s just the way the human brain estimates.
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October 7th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Very cool. Not only does it seem more real when you see one on the road, it seems more real when someone reports seeing one on the road!
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October 7th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
I haven’t looked for it, but I suspect you’re right. Anybody who’s eligible for a nice retirement package is probably gettin’ out while the gettin’s good.
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October 7th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Yes, but only if you drink all the MGD first!
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October 7th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Well it’s gotta be tough trying to sell Aveos and Cobalts against Corollas and Yarises and Civics and Fits. Right CorvetteGuy?
Again the question has to be, can they get competetive new products to the market in sufficient quantities before they run out of cash again..For the final time IMHO, as another bailout is going to be really tough.
Maybe these guys know something we don’t about this issue.
Come on Cruze, Spark and Volt, before it’s too late.
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October 7th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
JB:
Did you notice the cool link below this story to one about the new Caprice Police Patrol Vehicle, supposedly based on the soon to expire Zeta/G-8? I wonder if that means a rwd Impala SS may yet come back to life?
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
DaveG, “Someone saw multiple Volts testing at Death Valley here:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/09/25/chevy-volt-prototype-fleet-spotted-in-nevada/
Why doesn’t GM release this???”
Pikes Peak is well known and reverberates amongst all generations of Americans as a true test of a cars abilities. Pikes Peak resonates instantly – over 14,100 feet, WOW.
I have lived in California and mainly within 50 to 150 miles of Death Valley all my life, and I didn’t know anything about “the worst road I’ve seen for the Volt is heading west up out of Death Valley. You start out below sea level and climb to 6000+ feet of altitude over a 16-mile stretch of road.” …until the first time you wrote about it! Without putting this drive in context, I don’t think it would have the same kind of publicity value for GM. And right now every one seems to be thinking, how will the Volt do in cold weather for some reason
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Now that Loveland and A Basin are open, I wonder if the Volt can beat the chairlift to the top.
lol to all the engineers here who have suddenly forgotten the intended use for the car: for normal, everyday travel, like commuting to work. Unless your office is at the top of Mt. Evans or the bottom of Lake Tahoe, please chill.
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
True. So true.
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
C’mon…. We were told there would be no math questions! :p
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Yeah…Looks like GM is running out of ideas (cars).
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
:I
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Here’s a quick calculation of the potential energy of a Volt on the top of Pike’s Peak:
PE = mgh (all in meters, kilograms, seconds, to get joules)
the mass of the Volt is 3520 pounds = 1600 kg
h = 14,110 feet above sea level = 4301 m
g = 9.81 m/s^2
PE = mgh = 67,508,496 joules
1 joule = 1 watt * second
3600 joules = 1 watt-hour
67,508,496 joules = 18.75 kWh
So, the Volt has more than enough energy to recover to fill its’ 8 kWh battery.
It takes a little less than 3 hours to charge the battery at 220v, right ? The Volt’s 53 kW generator could theoretically charge the battery in 9.1 minutes, but what is the overheat cutoff ? I’m pretty sure the battery can discharge faster than it charges. You could get on a highway, floor it to 100 mph on a full charge, and use up all the plugged-in energy in about 14.7 miles, or 8.8 minutes (since air resistance is proportional to speed squared, and I’ve seen estimates elsewhere that the Volt could go 40 miles AER on the highway at 60.6 mph).
And if Pikes Peak at 14,110 feet height is 18.75 kWh potential energy, it follows that 6,020 feet is 8 kWh. So, any foothill of 6000 feet could possibly charge the Volt’s battery fully while coasting downhill.
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Noel
Forecast accuracy is maybe not Mr LaNeve’s strongest point.
I think statik has enjoyed Mr LaNeve and his rose colored glasses even as he has enjoyed remembering his earlier forecasts
Perhaps Mr LaNeve’s leaving is for a better opportunity, now that Mr Lutz took his old job, I think. Whatever, I am going to miss him and certainly wish Mr LaNeve well.
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Maybe GM is just saying it will come out in November 2010, and then will release it next June. At $35,000, before the tax break.
Ahead of schedule.
Cheaper than expected.
Better performance than expected.
Higher MPG in Charge Sustaining Mode than expected.
It’s all about managing expectations, ask Microsoft.
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
Anybody shoot a picture of a Tesla on top of Pikes Peak???
Congratulations Volt on the new milestone!
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Ah, what if I don’t…
Or, why not have the car drive itself?? (Argh)
Yup, I would prefer to Precharge on command.
Dial up the DiLithium PreBoost in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, Now!!!
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October 7th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
They will have to paint it red first.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
I once conservatively figured it at a buck or two a gallon. So to make the math easier, lets go at two. I am willing to give a bit.
Average car at 25mpg and 12,000 miles a year would be close to a grand a year, so a $7,500 Volt rebate is totally reasonable.
Now if we could just get someone to buy up 10% of the oil and drive the supertankers in circles like they did last year, (They Madeoff with oil before the election) the price of fuel would skyrocket and the Volt would be a slam dunk.
Cheers
Red HHR
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
I think the point that “solo” was trying to make is that a higher sweet spot might not be available because of the performance decrease of the ICE in the thin air at high altitude.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
steel, Thank You for the refreshing and logical physics explanation. I have tendency to shot from the hip and do not always get down to the hard numbers. I agree the Volt as it stands would suit my needs, however I would enjoy seeing the Andriette version scream up the hill in stunning HD detail. I can only hope. Anyway thanks again, steel.
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October 7th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
“…only if the controller is designed to switch dissipative loads (large resistors) to load the generator/motor in this mode”
The resistors would work well, and it would be simpler to design the controller to put energy into them, but they would add cost, weight, and size to the car. We frequently use “load bank” resistors in ground and flight testing of aircraft electrical systems, but they get replaced with seats before the aircraft goes into service.
My point is that the controller *could* be designed such that the generator itself becomes the “dissipative load” by virtue of it being driven as a motor to pump excess energy into cranking over the ICE (similar to how it starts the ICE now). It would add a little complexity to the controller, but no actual resistors would be necessary.
How GM chose to do it is anyone’s guess.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Don’t worry about the low rolling resistance tires. Manufacturers make all levels of grip combination’s. A good all purpose low rolling resistance high grip tire are priced about $120 each. Twice the price of low/middle grade Cooper’s but worth it in the long run.
=D~
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Could it be because Winter is not here yet! Patience is a virtue! Especially when you are excited!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
According to all the sightings so far, every Volt has been seen passing other cars. Might be that the state police have orders to stand down when they see them speeding by.
Happy trails to you ’til be meet again.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Geronimo,
What do you mean by “maybe? (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
The huge machines needed to move earth to build highways and roads through the mountains have been using electromotive drive for decades. GE in Erie,Pa. has been building diesel locomotives and electric motors for the dump trucks, graders, bulldosers, etc. as far back as the ’70’s. The technology has been around for a long time. It was just never fully applied to automobiles ’til GM came out with the EV1 and now the Volt.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Bob, that is a brilliant idea.. there is nothing stopping GM from getting rid of the excess braking energy by compressing air with the ICE.. after all the generator can also turn the ICE, that is how it starts it.
This is a free solution to the Pikes Peak downhill regen braking problem.
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October 7th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Natural Gas Fuel Cells aren’t that far into the future.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
“…someone pointed out that the fastest rally car set a (Pike’s Peak climb) record of 75 mph ”
We’re moving into the electric drive era now. Low center of gravity. With very quick off the line performance. We have seen the internet videos of electric kit cars destroying light weight, high horse power, $200,000 sports cars off the line. And maintaining a lead through most of a 1/4 mile. The world of driving is changing.
http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=electric+car+drag+race&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701&fr2=tab-web&tnr=21&vid=0001536564684
=D~
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
It is unsurprising that is what you believe, GXT. The whole perception is reality thing has you by the short-hairs.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
This calculation is not quite accurate because the trip down from the top of Pikes Peak does not take you all the way down to sea level. The actual energy available is the difference between the elevation at the top of the mountain and at the bottom of the mountain.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Your forgetting all of the losses. They work both ways.
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October 7th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
For anyone here that thinks GM is doing the testing to let us know how the car is doing has to rethink their logic. Anything that leeks out about these tests, or fed to us through proponents like Lyle, is news, and were lucky to get it. It generates a lot of chatter that brings more attention to the Volt. The more the merrier! The comments are all very entertaining: both the accurate and inaccurate statements. WE all benefit from every word. It’s like an ongoing soap, only here on the internet instead of TV.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
I think it started out at just under 30K, but then it climbed to 35 and then high 40’s (mostly from Lutz, I think).
But in May 2008 Wagoner said that under 30K was still the goal.
http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2008/05/22/chevy-volt-for-30000-fans-swoon-at-the-thought/
I’m not an expert on Tesla, but the references I am finding are 80-120K, which is about right, but more importantly, none of them seem to be by company execs.
There is a certain level of competence you expect from companies based on their size and experience. At the very least, if they don’t actually know they shouldn’t say, or they should at least prefix their comments with “I have no clue”. It comes down to credibility, and if you accept that it was reasonable that GM had that little actual knowledge of the Volt, there is every reason to believe the 50MPG was just as inaccurate, as apparently was the “up to” 40 miles electric range.
This is still my favourite quote from the GM PR about the Volt Concept:
“The Volt’s athletic design challenges the notion that an environmentally conscious vehicle can’t be beautiful and possess an aesthetic spirit that matches its driving characteristics.”
Just think about that… they didn’t even know it was horribly un-aerodynamic, or they pretended they didn’t. Either way, it shows you what you are dealing with.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
Thanks!
I’m certainly jealous.
Have you heard one with the engine going?
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
I know a Toyota dealership mechanic. He has stated that they’ve never replaced the brake pads on a Prius because they’ve yet to see one wear out.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
That’s why I called it a ‘quick calculation’.
If you take US 24 to Colorado Springs (elevation ranging from 6,035 to 7,200 feet), then the Potential Energy difference will be 10.73 kWh to 9.18 kWh.
Still larger than the 8 kWh of a full charge.
Yes, there will be air drag losses, rolling resistance losses, internal friction losses. Did I mention this was a ‘quick calculation’ ? Coming down the mountain will be pretty slow I imagine, so air drag will be minimal. Maybe later on US 24 as speeds pick up, the v^2 resistance will be more important than the tire friction and internal losses.
The important point is there is 9 to 11 kWh of energy to be recovered just coasting down to Colorado Springs. The Volt should do its best to convert that into stored energy for further AER driving.
The Prius only has about 0.52 kWh of battery storage to take advantage of this “free” downhill energy. The Volt will benefit from these downhill situations, even when it is not Pikes Peak.
How high of a hill is 0.52 kWh ? 391 feet.
So, any hill higher than that, the Volt has an advantage over the Prius in recovering potential energy.
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
There is something called charge sustainance – means the generator will recharge the battery to keep it at 30% at available opportunities. Seems it doesn’t try to recharge the battery fully ( only sustainance )
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
The ICE is started by using an inverter to spin the generator.
It could just as easily roll the ice over sans fuel to turn it into an energy sink.
(on edit… read down thread before replying…)
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
I know the Prius increased the efficiency of their regen braking for their Generation 2 models, which came out in 2004.
But I don’t know what the percent efficiency is, or if this is hard won proprietary knowledge (based on many years of tweaking the Prius) or if this is an industry-wide thing based on incrementally better parts every year.
It seems every single electric vehicle will have regen braking (even the 1996 EV1 from GM did), so I doubt everyone has to re-invent the wheel…
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October 7th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Not if they were in a 15 mph zone, behind a school bus going 11 mph.
But if there was no one blocking them, and the speed limit was 45 mph, yes I would be concerned. But more concerned if this were Oct, 2010.
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Well,
For the second question, I’m a bit behind on my battery tech. If the Volt charges in around 6 hours, but can use it in about 30 minutes, how does regen speed/efficiency play into the picture?
I’m not doing the research quite yet, I just want to know.
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October 7th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Awesome!
Have they done much research with 100% regen/no pad braking? I’ve heard it’s actually really safe and efficient, but I’m not sure if this is supported. Just curious.
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October 8th, 2009 at 12:29 am
Nice analysis.
Do you really think there is 30% power loss from the generator to the moving wheels ? There is just the power cable to the electric motor, the motor efficiency, and the linkage from motor to wheels.
30% loss sounds like a lot.
And if there were 30% loss, wouldn’t
Power = 51.5 kW + Losses
imply that total needed power was 73.6 kW (so the 70% not lost would be 51.5 kW). That would mean 20.6 kW from the battery, on top of the 53 kW from the generator. At 10 seconds draw, that is 206 kWs, or 0.057 kWh. Rounding up to 0.1 kWh for ‘battery losses’ implies 75% losses in drawing stored power from the battery, hopefully way too high.
I hadn’t seen the losses associated with pavement/gravel before, thanks.
Using your method, the power needed (without the Losses) to go up a 2% incline at 80 mph is only 47.3 kW. That’s very encouraging, the genset could keep that up till it ran out of gasoline (if Losses are only 11%, or 5.7 kW)
p.s. I’ve heard that the Cd for the Volt is 0.24, not 0.27. They tried to beat the Prius on purpose (which has 0.25)
p.p.s the air drag on the 65 to 75 mph example starts at 377 N, not 367, and it goes up to 504 N by the end of the acceleration.
Great mechanical analysis: I’m hoping you are off on the internal power losses from the genset –> wheels and drawing power from the battery
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October 8th, 2009 at 1:03 am
DETROIT (AP) – General Motors Co. CEO Fritz Henderson says the automaker’s global market share has risen slightly in the third quarter versus the first half of this year.
Henderson said Wednesday that GM controlled 11.9 percent of the global market in the July-September quarter, up from 11.6 percent in the first half of the year.
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October 8th, 2009 at 4:37 am
Yeah, that’s a good point. This stunt really doesn’t prove anything. Why do they waste our time. Just deliver the product already. Unless they’re not telling us something…
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October 8th, 2009 at 4:49 am
hi Timaaayyy … Do you really mean that? Drivers are going to put the Volt through a lot more than just 75MPH freeway driving. I would like to see the Volt cycle a 5000′ hill climb/descend loop until something fails. Would also like to see the Volt tested at full speed in desert heat for at least 3 hours straight. NGMCO is doing a good job. And as I said before. Am shopping for a truck, but liking the Volt more and more.
BTW: The Pike’s Peak photo should be titled, “King of the Hill”.
=D~
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October 8th, 2009 at 5:33 am
Agreed. I tend to be rough on my cars. I won’t keep it at just 75 mph.
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October 8th, 2009 at 7:06 am
I believe the car will have a GPS that will monitor the average elevation of the road. When the average exceeds a preset amount, it will start the ICE without waiting for the battery to deplete to 30%. This will save most of the reserve in the battery.
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October 8th, 2009 at 10:10 am
I agree guys. Considering the number of times the words “Pikes Peak” have been invoked here over the last couple of years (not over about 1000 times, right?), they probably felt like they had to to it, even if only to shut us up, LOL.
That said, I would have to totally agree with hermant on “Just deliver the product already.”
LJGTVWOTR!!
Time’s a wastin’
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October 8th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Is it just me or does that redesigned front (ie hood) remind anyone else of what the Pontiac Aztek front end looked like?
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October 8th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Regen braking has been around since day one. Your thought about proprietary intellectual property is well placed. There are a number of factors as you also perceive impacting efficiency. For example, super capacitors. Another example where Audi announced, in keeping with its full-time 4 x 4 rep, drive motors at each wheel. Each I assume a regen point. My reference is ‘Electric Vehicle Technology’ (Wiley 2003) Larminie et al.. p.225. BTW: The authors state “…75% not possible in practice.”
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October 8th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
I hope you’re right, but I dunno. I make a game of the MPG display in my Fit, and I’m amazed at what a large effect hills — even little bitty Connecticut hills — have on mileage. Not to mention, I think somebody mentioned gravel roads, and switchbacks, etc. All that’s a lot different than cruising a smooth, flat road at 65.
If the Volt could do the 19 miles up Pikes Peak on one gallon of gas, then that would be outstanding, and a grand slam for the serial hybrid concept. Let’s hope!
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October 8th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
It is indeed a benefit — a particular readily available hybrid that I drive regularly is still on its first set of brake pads after 109k normal miles. The penalty is that it can take 4-5 stopsigns to get the rust off of the brake discs — instead of taking the rust off when I back out of the driveway.
I’ve never gotten more than about 60k out of a set of brake pads on a normal vehicle, though I think my dad got over 100k-miles from a set of brake pads on a Honda Accord when he had a commute that covered 2 hours each way that was almost entirely on the Interstate.
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October 8th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
The luggage rack on top isn’t popular on high MPG vehicles. From what I’ve heard, putting a luggage rack on top of our Prius would cost about 15-20mpg off of the mileage (knocking the mileage into the low 30s), since it disrupts the laminar airflow over the body. Bike racks that go over the rear window are reputed to do this, too.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Volt (which is also a Kammback) had similar characteristics.
Going out on a limb here, I would posit that if you need to haul external loads, a high MPG passenger-car probably isn’t the right tool for the job.
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October 8th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
I’ve certainly observed that the mileage drops in the Prius when it gets cold. (I’m in Illinois, but not in Chicago.) My intuition is that it’s mostly because we make a lot of short trips, and we use a lot of gas to heat up the engine and the passenger compartment. I’ve considered getting an engine-block heater to see if I can prove it. The seems to drop a much more modest amount on long trips, which is probably about the amount of fuel that we have to burn in order to keep warm.
Also, the Prius has a very good traction control system. I’ve driven it (very carefully) during an ice storm, and it’s really hard to really get the wheels to break loose. Also, since it has a CVT, there’s no jerking around when an automatic would shift gears — and since there’s no clutch, I can’t overtorque the wheels. It doesn’t have much ground clearance, but it performed very nicely in any snow/ice that’s below the bumper.
Since the Volt doesn’t have a jerky automatic/manual transmission and since the Volt probably has an electronic traction control system (to keep you from smoking the tires with all of that 0-RPM torque), and since the Prius is the car to beat, I’d bet that the Volt will perform at least as well.
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October 8th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Mike:
It has the same type of glass pane in the back too, LOL.
I used to be part of the chorus laughing at the Aztek, until I had occasion to drive one which belongs to a friend of my wife’s. It has an absolutely cavernous interior for its size, and can haul a LOT of stuff. Also, the later ones were a lot less ugly after they took off a bunch of the fake-a-loo body cladding, IMHO. Kind of like the Avalanche, come to that.
If GM had stuck with it and cleaned up the styling a bit, I think that it might have been a viable product. Instead they folded in the face of the public ridicule. Not unlike the poor Corvair, which had evolved into a really good car about the time they pulled the plug. And as to Ralph Nader, i can’t even say it here. What a JERK!!
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October 8th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
If I’m this far behind the curve, I wonder if I can comment LAST!
Being on the left coast, I’ve given up on ever being FIRST!, LOL.
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October 8th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Yes, I’ve heard the super capacitor idea, it allows very fast charging so could grab the power from regen braking faster than a battery. But coasting down a mountain like Pike’s Peak, a small supercap will fill up fast.
I looked into this a bit since I posted,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car#Energy_efficiency
Using regenerative braking, a feature which is present on many electric and hybrid vehicles, estimates of 71-93% of the energy used to accelerate the mass of the vehicle may be recovered during braking[32], increasing its efficiency, particularly in urban drive cycles.
Citation 32 is ^ SAE paper 1999-01-2929, with no link to the paper. And it looks like it was written in 1999, so might be a theoretical pie-in-the-sky paper.
It’s the phrase “in practice” that gets you
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October 8th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Most of the speed up Pikes Peak highway, the parts you care about, are very low, 25-30. There are also sections of the road that are still just dirt, though they finished paving the top section right after the International Hill Climb. As such, it is pretty easy for the engine, in low gear to make it up. Also because of the low oxygen content on the way up, the engine loses more the 40% of its rated HP.
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October 8th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Why won’t GM release the *real* results? What are they hiding? All these questions would go away if they would just release the real results.
Come on, someone had to say it!
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October 9th, 2009 at 12:06 am
It’s not an assumption if it reflects in a way that is perceived to be positive for the Volt. However, if you make an assertion that has a negative implication, then you are a blasphemer and the negative responses will rain down on you.
Myself, I believe the Volt will get 55mpg in ‘charge sustaining’ mode under all conditions, that it’s EPA rating will be greater than 230mpg and that the EPA number will be a conservative reflection of the car’s actual fuel efficiency. Also, I believe that because it has one a them ‘lectric motors with all that instantaneous torque that it will beat a ZR1 off the line no sweat.
The naysayers can whine that it’s a 4,000lb underpowered, overpriced civic competitor that will take the average driver 20-30 years to recoup the premium they paid in fuel savings, but they will be shown for the fools they are when GM whips out 10,000/ year every year until they are back in bankruptcy court.
Also, it totally doesn’t look like a GM’ish Prius, especially when viewed from the side. I can’t wait until my local Chevy Kommisar has a 2010 Volt that I can pay $32,500 (fingers crossed that the taxpayers will chip in $7,500 and the price doesn’t go up). I read they are going to build the Volt in China, not sure if that is true, but I hope they do, they really need to keep the cost where it is now, at par with full size luxury sedans. If it goes higher I’ll probably start shopping for a Porsche instead.
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October 9th, 2009 at 12:23 am
What Li Ion battery can charge as fast as it discharges? I was not aware of this fact and I’m pretty sure you’re wrong. Usually, charging lithium batteries beyond 1C results in fire.
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October 9th, 2009 at 11:05 am
For an excellent (easy to follow) cover of this topic go – Google: ‘regenerative brake’, ‘Wikipedia’. See also US 5941328 (’www.uspto.gov’ – ’search patents’ – ‘by number’) This 1998 patent to Lockheed Martin is cited by 25 subsequent patents makes it very special. Once on the USPTO patent click ‘Referenced by’. This will bring up the cited patents. Aside from all this, know that Regen braking creates heat within and without the motor-genny; which dominates efficiency.
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