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Mitsubishi Uveils PX-MiEV; EV, EREV and PHEV All in One
Like all recent auto shows before it, the upcoming Tokyo Motor Show will offer a showcase of new electrified vehicles.
Two examples that seem particularly important are entries from Mitsubishi and Honda.
Mitsubishi is unveiling what it calls the PX-MiEV. This crossover seems to be a conglomerate of all things; its is a plugin hybrid, a parallel hybrid, a series hybrid, and an EV.
The front and rear wheels are powered by two electric motors that total 60 kw, and there is a 1.6 L gas engine that can both power the front wheels and act as a generator. All of the driving configurations are managed by a power control unit and software called the “MiEV OS.”
EV mode can be automatically switched between front wheel drive or 4 wheel rive depending on road conditions. When the battery is depleted to a certain level, the vehicle transforms into Volt-like series hybrid operation where the generator simply provides energy for the electric motors. However unlike the Volt, when power demands become high, the engine can also turn the wheels supplementing the electric motors as a parallel hybrid configuration.
The EV mode range is 31 miles from a full charge, and the car seats 4.
Mitsubishi claims the vehicle will achieve about 117 MPG overall.
Also Honda has finally taken its first baby step into the electric car arena and is unveiling its pure BEV concept called the EV-N. This is a retro styled 4 seat mini car that Honda says is purely a design study and that there are no plans for production.
They are also revealing the CR-Z sports hybrid which is similar to the Insight in mild hybrid engineering only does 0 to 60 in 9 seconds instead of the Insight’s 11 seconds. It will go into production in 2010.
131 Responses to “Mitsubishi Uveils PX-MiEV; EV, EREV and PHEV All in One”
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October 1st, 2009 at 6:18 am
Let the games begin
(and the volt win)
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October 1st, 2009 at 6:25 am
The Honda looks like the product of a 81 VW rabbit having sex with a Mini.
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October 1st, 2009 at 6:33 am
The Mitsu PX-M looks interesting. Should be very popular if Consumer Reports grades it with red marks. Will require a 10 year bumper to bumper plan to support all the new technology. Prepare for sticker shock.The die hard Honda coupe crowd will love the CR-Z.
The summer of 2010 should bring $85 per barrel oil prices. The growing concern over 2012 Hopi, Mayan, and Nostradamus prophecy is sure to bump oil prices higher in 2011. The hum of electric vehicles will begin to take root.
=D~
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October 1st, 2009 at 6:34 am
I think Honda is trying to keep the EV image as a golf cart for a while longer, until it has a real contender.
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October 1st, 2009 at 6:45 am
Um, I does that mean the new Mitsubishi is the same as the Prius (parallel / series hybrid)?
If it has a mechanical transmission that allows the ICE to drive the wheels though it’s transmission then yes.
I wonder what hp the electric motors are. If they are near 100 kW total then great, if they are less than 60 kW total then it’s almost exactly like the Prius.
*** Update ***
The generator puts out 70 kW (the Volts is 53 kW) but the two motors are only rated at 60 kW total. Thus, exactly what the Prius electric motors put out. That gives you an idea of what you can expect. The battery pack seems to be a bit larger than the Prius so it can get around 30 miles AER.
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October 1st, 2009 at 6:53 am
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:00 am
Honda is learning the hard way with the Insight that price isn’t everything for energy conscientious buyers. I guess they now think they can slice the younger, agressive design seeking portion of that market. Unless the CR-Z offers something more than expected near-Insight fuel efficiency to woo ICE-only buyers, this underpowered sports hatch will have limited appeal.
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:04 am
Hee hee … you’ll see. It will be carnage, twisted metal.
=D~
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:10 am
This SUV is exciting.
It’s a 4×4 when needed, otherwise it is front wheel drive.
How I wish the Volt was like this. Maybe 3rd generation or so.
Meanwhile, this SUV will do. However the 117mpg is suspect.
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:16 am
Not to pick on you, but two days in a row with “vehilce”.
Keep up the great reporting.
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:23 am
Why is it that the Japanese design such ugly cars? i mean really… just look at those cars above. Gad, they are hideous.
The most beautiful car ever to come out of Japan was the Datsun (Nissan) 240Z back in the 1970’s. Gorgeous, well proportioned from every angle. But I believe that was designed in America. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:28 am
I have read this twice, and I am still not getting how the PX-MiEV works. How do you transform from a parallel hybrid to a series hybrid???
I guess it is still too early in the morning to figure this one out!
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:34 am
In going with the Ghostbusters reference the Honda BEV looks a bit like a car the Staypuffed marshmellow man would drive.
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:34 am
I think they are biting more than what they can chew. With all this unproven technology, they are bound to have many problems. GM is taking on the right road and I wish them a lot of success.
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:37 am
Dang it. I didn’t realize the SUV was only a concept.
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:38 am
Mitsubishi:
31 miles AER… at what speed? and in 4WD? How many KWh in the batteries. I’m guessing more than the Volt. I’m also guessing this car would cost $55K+
Honda:
The retro one looks silly to me, but I could see ppl buying this. I like the looks of the sports car, but I bet its much smaller in person. Too bad they cant get the 0-60 around 6~7 seconds.
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:41 am
Interesting approach moving from EV to series hybrid to parallel hybrid. Certainly, they cover all bases – hopefully it doesn’t come at too great a cost premium than just having a series hybrid with an EV mode.
I wonder how it compares to Audi’s EfficiencyDynamic 2 motor + diesel configuration – same, different, some overlap?
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:41 am
Me too (not understaning why Lyle called it a serial hybrid). It sounds like a Prius with a bigger battery, a plug, and and extra motor in the rear.
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:52 am
Consumers Report will give Honda a great rating no matter what, and if it’s a GM, it’s rating will be low no matter what!
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:54 am
I just always keep in mind that a 5 to 6 year development cycle (to assure reliability) can’t suddenly be done in 3 years.
Certainly marketing departments are “biting at the bit” at many OEM’s, but the bottom line to reliability (in prevention of consumer financial disasters), is a long term REAL test program for whatever goes into any vehicle, MOST ESPECIALLY entirely new KINDS of technologies which otherwise have ABSOLUTELY NO historical basis for which warranty promises could be made or kept.
Let the buyer beware. (And, have pockets of plentiful depth when the warranty on any of the new *kinds* of components goes out). With the smaller OEM’s especially, DO NOT count on any kind of economy of scale for lowered cost expectations at any time in the future. Also, when a smaller OEM “throws everything in there”, you are really asking for it.
This is another reason why I think Voltec is the very best bet.
Very many buyers rely upon Consumer Reports.
Consumer Reports, (and essentially most other publications) for example, is not the avenue from which potentially-new customers for a particular electrified auto ought to conclude that “initial-quality” feedback from first adopters of “quick-to-market” vehicles has any credibility relating to long term reliability and cost-feasibility.
Although *initial* major fault reports are at one end of the time/mileage spectrum (which are usually warranted at no cost), it’s the other end of the time and mileage spectrum that I always focus on.
Especially, these first impressions of “initial quality” regarding “quick to market” vehicles from the smaller OEM’s should not at all be relied-upon to be able to form reliable impressions for expectations of any new kind of *long term* technological reliability.
The warranty and extended warranty terms are THE essential first factors to completely study thoroughly and to understand. And, these are what you ought to be able to thoroughly compare from one vehicle to another far more easily once you know what GM’s industry standards are for warranties, it seems to me.
(After all, I’m one of those who tells the auto repair customer that something is under warranty for certain reasons, and there will be no cost for the covered repair at the dealership).
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October 1st, 2009 at 7:57 am
______________________________________________________
Value of an EV “concept” = ?
Value of an EV Production = In The Game
______________________________________________________
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October 1st, 2009 at 8:21 am
The the PX-MiEV looks OK at first, but does it have any head room? What is the height of the drivers side window, like 8 inches?
It seems to me there are too many companies tackling complex expensive configurations. The Leaf concept is simple and is sure to succeed in it’s area (families with 2 cars or folks with one car that never leave town). The Volt still seems to lead in the one car does it all niche, but we’ll just have to wait a couple years to find out. Until a OEM commits to WELL over 100,000 units per year (the Leaf has done this and we’ll know in a year or so what it costs) it is not possible to judge the car against the competition. Without Mass production the car will just cost too much.
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October 1st, 2009 at 8:31 am
I agree that a 0-60 time of 9s is SLOW and I was hoping for more.
But it is interesting how Lyle describes it as “only does 0 to 60 in 9 seconds” yet the Volt’s 0-60 is apparently only 0.5s faster but is being sold as being V6-level.
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October 1st, 2009 at 8:35 am
I agree, that was a great looking car.
But according to wikipedia, it sounds like you are wrong about it being american designed. So I guess the Japanese have designed the “most beautiful car ever”.
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October 1st, 2009 at 8:42 am
Just from personal experience, the Prius is not popular with teenage girls but it is very popular with the parents of teenage girls. If the mileage is good, the Honda CR-Z may be an option which brings peace to families.
Driven by a 20-something, a Prius is faster off the line than most other cars, a fact I was reminded of yesterday.
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October 1st, 2009 at 8:47 am
My impression is that initial quality is a good albeit not exact indicator of long term reliability. IOW if you’re at the top of the initial quality survey, you may not end up at the top of the three year reliability survey, but you’re going to be above average. Likewise, if you’re at the bottom in initial quality you’re not gong to end up in the top half.
My other impression is that after three years things don’t change very much going forward. IOW, cars that hold up the best after three years hold up the best after five and ten years.
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October 1st, 2009 at 8:52 am
The PX-Miev looks to be a technology showcase concept car — kind of like what we saw with BMW’s efficient dynamics concept.
Honda’s big electric debut will be electric motorcycles. I could see Honda selling lots and lots of these in the East.
http://www.gizmag.com/honda-2wd-electric-motorcycle-tokyo-motor-show/12991/gallery/
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:10 am
Truth.
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:13 am
The Honda concept is retro of Honda’s own N600 sedan they made from 1968 to 1972. I used to own a ‘72 N600 in college. I loved it. It was like driving a go-cart in the street. Unfortunately, the motorcycle engine that powered it threw a rod and that was the end of it. I sold it for parts. I would almost consider buying another one because it really was fun.
For those not familiar with the N600, here is a fun TV commercial from 1971.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJTYfAAMBqM
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:14 am
I was thinking it looks a lot like a copy of the Range Rover Sport…
(but with a homely front clip)
/put’s on hard hat….
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:15 am
Doesn’t it seem like it would be difficult to drive this set up. I mean, you don’t know if power is coming in at the front wheels or rear wheels. What do you do in the snow, or on dirt roads. How will you know where the power is. Just seems weird that in one minute the you have power at the rear of the vehicle, in the other minute you don’t.
Peter
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:16 am
Out of Japan absolutely…
The mid 60’s convertable Jaguar XK-e is without any doubt the most beautiful car ever…
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:18 am
Mitsu PX-MiEV = $50,000.00 Dream Electric
Honda EV-N = $16,000 Death Trap
Honda CR-Z = $25,000 WINNER !!!!
(Remember GM: High MPG alone will not sell the VOLT. It has to have styling that just says “WOW!”)
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:20 am
Nope. designed in Japan by Mr. Yoshihiko Matsuo at Nissan.
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:21 am
You can do almost anything if you have enough money.
The Mitsu sounds VERY expensive.
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:28 am
There must be a clutch that allows the engine to disconnect mechanically from the final drive so it can ‘just’ drive the generator.
It’s actually a pretty cool idea.
Mitsu has had some interesting transmissions over the years… My wife’s ‘81 Dodge Colt (rebadged Mitsu Mirage) had a twin stick 4 speed, it had high and low ranges much like a heavy truck. in ‘low’ this little econo car would burn the tires. it ran out of rev’s in 4th gear at ~80 kph but it would easily beat the Mustangs and Camaro’s of the era off the light.
Yes we drove it in ‘high’ most of the time.
It was as basic as cars get, (power nothing, it DID have a heater…) but it got us through university without asking for much at all, it was a good car. My only real complaint with the ‘modern’ Mitsu’s is that I tend to find them ugly.
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:28 am
Is the PX-iMiev a concept car, or is it scheduled for production?
If production, do we know when it will be for sale?
That is, are we hearing about a real car or just vapor?
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:31 am
Lets hope Honda stays with the plan not to produce this little EV. The world does not need another blocky looking vehicle – EV or not. If Honda wants to produce an EV, then fine. Do it with some style and build something people would really like to see sitting in their driveways.
As far as the Mitsu is concerned, gosh that has to be a complex vehicle to offer all those drive train options. Expensive? I could not see how it would not be expensive. Troublesome? Same as expensive. So Mitsu ends up with a vehicle that offers high expense and possibly high trouble to keep working properly. That will mean expensive to purchase and expensive to maintain. Seems like a real winner, alright.
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:32 am
Looks like my homo friends will love the Leaf and the Gay buddy from Honda. Jusssst Fabulous, so faby
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:34 am
@ kdawg and Texas
Again (see just past my Whisker Kitty entry in the prior post), a little history on the retro one:
That’s the exact style of the notorious Honda that seriously started the massive automobile market share erosion among the Detroit 3, now known as the Civic (and Civic hybrid). It’s the original giant killer style.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2009/09/tokyo-preview-honda-ev-n-concept.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_N360
The first generation market share giant killer could do 0-60 mph in a whopping 29.3 seconds.
But if you folks and Detroit want to ignore history….
Underestimate Honda at your own peril. They may take baby steps, but they rarely fall on their face.
I notice that this site ignores most the two wheeled electric drive development that goes on, but for global markets, two wheelers have always been be a critical tipping meme for widespread first time adoption of motorized vehicles, and more recently affordable, practical electric drive and it certainly beefs up the demand side for suppliers of all electric drive vehicle components and systems. Keep in mind that Honda started in the US with motorcycles, up til then dominated by British motorcycles (though Agni motors may have recently done a Lazurus for the Brits(/Indian) reputation, based on the TTXGP).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_C50
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/695/4736/Motorcycle-Article/Electric-Honda-Cub—Scooter-Set-for-Tokyo.aspx
/history and broader context rant off
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:38 am
You would think the new CR-Z will be better in mileage efficiency than the Insight because it looks like it will be lighter. Of course, that doesn’t always check out. We will know more later. Is it a two-seater? It looks like it is meant for only two passengers, but it is hard to tell.
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:40 am
Everything is a concept at this stage. Until it hits the street as a production model, then it is a concept. Looks like it will not be an American manufacturer to offer the first electric SUV.
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:43 am
The mitsubishi PX-MiEV looks like an interesting concept, but I won’t buy ANYTHING from the manufacturer of the airplanes that killed US Servicemen at Pearl Harbor.
Yeah, I know it was 68 years ago. I don’t care if it was 68 years ago or 6 days ago. No sale!
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:44 am
…while I concur w/ your post…the horse is dead man…the Volt design has been set for quite some time now. I’m still working on getting past it myself (almost there).
Unless you are just encouraging GM for their next attempt to get that ‘WOW’ design…which I did get from the Converj actually – just couldnt afford that type of ‘WOW’
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:46 am
1957 Porshe 356 Speedster convertible was a very beautiful car. IMO.
Link to it: http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1035854_video-electric-1957-porsche-356-speedster-replica
Really great what Jack Rickard did to convert this car to all electric. I wish I could afford to purchase one for myself.
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:48 am
That should nicely balance C&D and R&T who laud whatever has a steering wheel that requires an 800 pound gorilla to wrestle it, is embarrasingly overpowered and has no traction or stability control.
Then there’s J.C. at Top Gear who just likes to go straight at very high speeds for a long time. Putting him at the controls of the MLX01 JR-Maglev electric drive train (361 mph) ought to render him speechless for once.
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October 1st, 2009 at 9:50 am
@ kingofl337
No, it looks like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_N360
It’s a retro design from the same company, not a mashup of later imitations.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:04 am
If you’re into that kind of thing, this might be an interesting read for you:
Hitler’s carmaker
How General Motors helped mobilize the Third Reich
http://www.internalcombustionbook.com/archive/offsite/jweekly/JWeeklyGMandtheNazis.html
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:05 am
By the way, I’ve seen many comments on this site about minimizing or eliminating the money flow going to enemies of the US via oil revenue. I agree completely. But in truth, we don’t know who our enemies will be in 1 year or 10 years.
Obviously Mitsubishi is a Japanese company, but a bigger concern is China. With the huge transfer of wealth going on right now from the US to China – as Chinese manufacturing soars and US manufacturing dwindles – I shudder to think what may happen if our relationship with China ever sours.
IMO, we should spend our money on American products at every opportunity, especially major purchases like autos. And especially when our domestic auto manufacturers are putting out great product like they are today; Chevy Malibu, Equinox, Traverse, Corvette, GMC Terrain, Acadia, Buick Enclave, LaCrosse, Cadillac CTS, Ford Edge, Fusion, Lincoln MKX, MKZ …. the list goes on. All great vehicles.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:14 am
Yes, 9 seconds isn’t sports car territory, it’s “sports hybrid” (to quote the article) territory.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:29 am
With something like that I think I could pull my pop up camp trailer and haul some large loads when needed. Right now I’m in a dilemma. I own a Chevy Avalanche for hauling large loads and to tow my camp trailer when it’s time to get out of the city for awhile. For work, five days a week I ride my motorcycle, at least when it’s not raining or extremely cold. This works great, keeps my gasoline use down and still gives me the flexibility to do what I need to do. With the Volt I’m now looking at having three vehicles. Compared to the Avalanche there are many benefits with the Volt. Compared to my motorcycle there is only one major benefit, safety. Yes the gas mileage of the bike would be more and so would the cost to ride it but not enough to offset the cost of the Volt. Based on that, the Mitsubishi SUV would be a much better fit for me than the Volt. The price may be something difficult to deal with if it went into production and I’m a little shy about the complexity of the design. If a strong warranty came with it though, I would surely consider the purchase and get rid of my Avalanche. I love my Avalanche and it is truly an amazingly versatile and comfortable SUV, but the 8.1L Chevy rat motor drinks about a gallon every 14 miles in town. With gasoline at $2.16 a gallon that’s not too bad but when we were at almost $4.00 a gallon here in Dallas, well that was seriously hurting my wallet.
That CR-Z is really sharp looking. Before I purchased my Avalanche I owned a Nissan 300ZX which I thoroughly enjoyed. The performance was outstanding as well as the gas mileage for a V6 sports car, but it wouldn’t tow anything. It also looked really funky when I purchased an igloo dog house for my dogs from Walmart and drove home with half of the dog house hanging out of the back hatch of the Z. So if I were to look at the CR-Z instead of the Volt, I’m back with having two automobiles and still keeping my motorcycle. I’ve been riding motorcycles since I was 13 so I ride for much more than just fuel economy. For many people this isn’t an issue. The wife has one automobile while the husband has the other. I’m single! What to do? – Wait is the answer as many new designs are coming. I still want a Volt but GM really needs to push it out the door as quickly (while keeping the quality) before something else comes along that fits better with my needs.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:33 am
EVO:
Sounds like my ‘58 Corvette, LOL. We run so much caster that it really does take some muscle to steer it. It eats up Porsches though.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:37 am
Rashiid:
Fiendishly complicated though, don’t you think? It makes the Volt seem simple and straightforward by comparison. Thanks Mitsu!
As to the Honda, the less said the better, IMHO.
Cool avatar, BTW.
LJGTVWOTR!!
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:41 am
Dr. Dennis:
Every day I wonder whre you get the energy to keep up the blog at this intensity. Awesome!
As the self proclaimed King Of The Typos, I say, what’s a couple of typos among friends? When you are cranking out this volume of excellent work product, a few are inevitable. Unless you want to hire a full time proofreader of course. Or maybe John C. Briggs will volunteer? Oh wait, I guess he has already.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:44 am
You’re all wrong. The YUGO was the bestest of the bestest….
http://users.chartertn.net/jseabolt/yugo2.jpg
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:45 am
MuddyRoverRob:
1955 Corvette. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Besides, ours ran so well last weekend that I have to give it a little respect. The ‘58 did even better, but I don’t want to test your patience too much on the aesthetic argument, LOL.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:45 am
I take back what I said earlier about folks here missing some big pictures in what’s happening from time to time. Carcus1 is on point on this one.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:47 am
“Simplicate and add lightness.” Complication adds weight. They are making GM look smart.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:48 am
Amen. Enough with the “concepts” already.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:49 am
Yeah, and we all criticized the changes in the Volt, LOL. Pretty ugly, IMHO.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:49 am
“There must be a clutch that allows the engine to disconnect mechanically from the final drive so it can ‘just’ drive the generator.”
I’m almost sure that is the case. I called that on the 2010 Pris a while bak. After kdawg posted some visual designs of the Prius I looked up the cutaway of the 2010 and noticed a larger distance between MG1 and 2 where in the future a clutch could be used to disengage mechanical torque to the driving electric motor to allow it to function as a series hybrid but can then go back to a parallel. Of course this isn’t Toyota but hey, they can do it, if they want to.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:52 am
There are plenty of current “AWD” systems that use a clutch to ‘add’ rear drive as needed when the wheels slip.
The Honda CR-V does this. (At least the first generation one’s did, I haven’t looked at them in a while.)
The Subaru automatic AWD system does something similar as well. There are different systems for manual and auto box’s.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:52 am
firefox spell checker always misses that bugger which seems to automate from my keyboarding style…wont be the last one.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:56 am
The Honda EV-N…. is it just me, or does anyone else want to give that car a wedgie and steal its lunch money? When I try to visualize a driver, Ralph Wiggam of The Simpsons comes to mind.
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October 1st, 2009 at 10:57 am
I quite like the looks of the Leaf, the Prius, and pretty much everything made by Subaru — and I’m about as straight a guy as exists.
A gay couple that is part of my family drives a Buick Rendezvous minivan, though, so maybe you should add that to your list of “faby” vehicles?
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:00 am
The Ford Fusion is assembled in Mexico and the Equinox until very recently had a Chinese engine. But you were right about most of the others on the list.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:00 am
Ford, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_ford#World_War_II_era
History is more complicated than most people (especially Fox News commentators) imagine…
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:02 am
GM’s AWD also works “on demand” with standard driving being done FWD.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:03 am
Let’s be clear: The PX-iMiev is a PHEV, not an EREV.
Forget about series, parallel, # of electric motors, etc., and look at what matters: Can it accelerate at highway speeds without using any gas?
Yes = EREV
No = PHEV
With 60kW (80 horsepower) total for both motors in a crossover sized vehicle, that’s not enough provide reasonable acceleration at highways speeds, so the PX-iMiev is not an EREV.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:03 am
Carcus1:
Ouch! Touche.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:04 am
Seriously, do the Japanese have any stylists who havn’t graduated from the school of anime? One ugly car after another.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:04 am
I’d buy the EV-N.
For the PX-Miev to only seat 4 for it’s size kind of turns me away.
I just want a BEV something for commuting and grocery getting that’s freeway legal.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:06 am
So now 0-60 in 9 seconds classifies something as a “sports” model? What’s next… “sports” versions of wheel barrows at Lowes?
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:07 am
CaffineBuzz:
Yeah, and it looks like none of them would sell poor old Roger any cars, LOL. What a bunch of bums.
Just look at the poor old Russians. Thay have gone from good guys to bad guys, back to good guys, and back to bad guys, just in my lifetime. Or have they just gone back to good guys again? I can’t keep up.
I mean, I was raied to see the Chinese as bad guys. Are they good guys or bad guys now? I dunno.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:08 am
Hey, I like that car!…
But don’t you mean seeing Mr Incredible getting out of the car and pulling the door off…..lol
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/walt_disney/the_incredibles/craig_t__nelson/bobcar.jpg
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:09 am
I find it really hard to believe that GM had any control over Opel during WWII. Maybe they cooperated more than they should have, especially before the US entered the war. And, yes, Alfred Sloan and Henry Ford were both anti-semites and nazi sympathizers.
But do you really think that if Alfred Sloan or even the American directers in Germany had ordered the German workers to stop making weapons, they would have listened? Having two directors who still represented GM on the board doesn’t mean anything. The article even stated that the management decisions were made by the German goverment. And just because they approved the president of Opel before the war doesn’t mean he listened to them during the war.
That said, I don’t think the “national defense” argument is a good one. For one thing, the world is a very different place than it was 50 years ago. That type of war is a lot less likely for a number of reasons. For which we should all be extremely thankful. But even if it did (worst case scenario), we could take over Toyota and Honda’s plants here the same way that Germany took over Opel.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:13 am
Yes, Noel. Extremely complicated.
It seems to me it could be made simpler.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:14 am
On Honda’s EV-N:
It’s possible that this “baby step” IS the giant killer.
–
Many seem to think that the BEV has to eventually compete head to head with ICE cars we know today. That in order to be competitive, they have to do all the things a giant SUV can do: carry 7, refuel in 5 minutes, tow a 7,000 boat, etc…..
Most of the time, people are driving these “giants” as the sole occupant and are only traveling within their little comfort radius. They reach into their transportation toolbox needing a tack hammer but all they’ve got is a sledge hammer.
It’s very important to keep in mind that the batteries won’t last forever, and if you’re lugging around 3x, 4x,or 5x the battery that you normally need, you are also increasing your battery replacement costs by the same 3x, 4x, or 5x factor.
The smallest and lightest BEV that gets the job done could be the actual destination. . . not the stepping stone.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:21 am
Dude, your killin me. That’s almopst impossible to do. Consider the PC you are typing on to post this. How many components were designed and mfgrd NOT in the US. If you have an AMD CPU then ther’s a 20% chance it was fabricated here. If you have an Intel CPU there’s only a 25-30% chance it was fabricated here. If you have a fast add on video card I bet it wasn’t even made here at all. You’re LCD monitor was most likely not built here.
My Ford Explorer was made in Mexico and they have people illegally coming here getting on welfare paid for by you and I. GM just anounced an Agreement with REVA an Indian company to mfgr cars there in India. GM has a German Opel joint venture and weren’t we at war with the Third Reich?…….blah blah blah……….
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:22 am
The ‘55 ‘vette is also a beautiful car.
My vote still goes to the Jag though!
I think I’m OK with agreeing to disagree!
CJS… the YUGO???!!!!??? That’s just rude!
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:32 am
Things cycle… at the end of the 70’s cars were no less lame.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:33 am
A question Lyle might ask GM is this: The Mitsubishi Concept PX-MiEV uses a windshield that uses heat-reflecting glass to reduce the amount of heat energy passing through and uses IR- (infrared ray) blocking glass in the door windows. Do the production intent Volts also use “low E” window glass?
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:35 am
“It’s possible that this “baby step” IS the giant killer”
I agree. This “Mr. Incredible’s car” ( http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/walt_disney/the_incredibles/craig_t__nelson/bobcar.jpg ) just may be if it is priced right. Is this concept or intent? I dunno but if it’s 100mile range or real 75 mile range cost’s $20,000.00 to $25,000.00 then I think it will be a big hit for commuters. I already see a boatload of those honda Fit and toy Yaris everywhere. Hope this one makes it. Either way, the more the merrier.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:39 am
My post has nothing to do with the current topic but I fell the story might be of interest.
Today, CNN published a piece from Fortune Magazine that comments about the fate of the Saturn brand. The interesting aspect is that Alex Taylor III, a senior editor who wrote the piece predicts the Volt will eventually suffer the same fate as Saturn. As evidence he points to some obvious flaws the Volt will have namely the fact that after battery depletion the car will loose half of its performance, thus making passing risky.
My understanding of how the Volt works is that such a loss of power simply is not going to happen because the battery continues to act as a buffer and supply power during transient events, such as passing.
This is yet another example of the typical bashing of the Volt in the media by people who are simply misinformed.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:40 am
Yes, it’s obvious it’s not an EREV or pure serial hybrid.
Let’s examine what you said matters most – highway acceleration.
Let me ask you this question. Will the Volt or the Prius plug-in get better gas mileage at highway speeds?
Unfortunately, it’s going to be the Prius plug-in that gets better numbers. Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this.
However, is that really what matters? How long can EVs with small battery packs drive on the highway anyway? Only short distances.
I feel the most important aspect is the city performance. Pure AER, quiet, excellent efficiency, the best acceleration, no emissions, all-electric driving for most of American’s driving, etc. These are most important, not highway performance. If you want that, buy a new diesel.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:48 am
Exactly! I had the same thought. Too funny.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:52 am
Always good to have a linky:
“Wednesday’s collapse of the Penske deal, which was always a chancy proposition, kills the Saturn brand. Will it kill GM’s historic arrogance? Critics see the same mentality that led to Saturn in GM’s zealous promotion of the Chevy Volt.
As one observer pointed out recently, after the Volt’s batteries have been discharged from 40 miles of driving, its performance will be reduced by half. In other words, the acceleration time of this $40,000 car under its gasoline engine will double, making maneuvers like merging onto a highway and passing pretty risky.
That’s hardly likely to be a strong selling point for a car that GM is promoting — as it did with Saturn — as a revolutionary game changer.”
Saturn’s dead: Good riddance
http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/01/autos/death_of_saturn.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009100111
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:58 am
“My understanding of how the Volt works is that such a loss of power simply is not going to happen because the battery continues to act as a buffer and supply power during transient events, such as passing.”
_______________
It’s a debated topic. The critics (my) argument is that the battery “buffer zone” after main battery depletion won’t be enough to “fill in” for the ice during extended high power demands — resulting in a split/varying personality during these situations.
As we don’t know all of the Volt’s technical details at this point, performance in Range Extender mode is speculative.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:59 am
“My understanding of how the Volt works is that such a loss of power simply is not going to happen because the battery continues to act as a buffer and supply power during transient events, such as passing.”
_______________
It’s a debated topic. The critics (my) argument is that the battery “buffer zone” after main battery depletion won’t be enough to “fill in” for the ice during extended high power demands — resulting in a split/varying personality during these situations.
As we don’t know all of the Volt’s technical details at this point, performance in Range Extender mode is speculative.
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October 1st, 2009 at 11:59 am
oops.
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Raping posts again?
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Dunno youre age but I think it will be a big hit to the 18 and 25 yr old yuppies.
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:06 pm
CaptJack,
You make a good point with your list of foreign made products sold here in the US. And if Americans don’t make an effort to buy American made products, your list is going to get longer and longer, while the list of products made here continues to shrink.
What do you think will happen to our standard of living when our manufacturing base in the US is gone? How lucrative will it be, just giving eachother haircuts and manning the drive thrus?
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:15 pm
are there any examples of highway capable cars with 80hp?.. probably a lot of european small cars fall in that category.
Dave G weasel words are “reasonable acceleration”
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:21 pm
You want complex and expensive?.. try the GM FWD 2-Mode transaxle.. 5 clutches, count em, 5 clutches…
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:24 pm
I just don’t know when to quit.
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Yeah, I tried the buying american. That’s why I bought a Ford Explorer. Then came to find it wasn’t even made here. I even by HP products but the same thing. I’ve reached a conclusion a while ago that every large company/corporation is a “Global” company/Corporation. I’ve worked in mfgring for 10 years and certain boards used were built overseas and we just plugged them in. I don’t think our standard of living will be affected as much because I believe we Americans work best under pressure and good ol American inginuty will keep us afloat.
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Alex Taylor III has been a Volt basher since day one. He is so far out there in basher-land that he has no grasp of the importance of voltec technology for Volt and future cars.
Besides, Fortune is not Car and Driver. Lets see what the car magazines say about all these EVs when they are actually available for test drives. Until then, it’s all vaporware.
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Thtopit!!!!!
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:33 pm
A serial hybrid would be much simpler, but you would lose some mpg in charge sustaining mode.
I think accepting lower mpg is a good tradeoff in simplicity, reliability and cost because most people will never use that charge sustaining mode.. but that depends on the size of the battery pack of course.
I dont like these designs too much, by putting the electric motor on the rear wheels you lose a lot of regenerative braking, and that is one of the big advantages of a BEV.
My idea would be a FWD electric, with a RWD ICE driving the wheels and a genset at the same time.. disadvantage of this is that you would have a hard-to-access ICE plus you would go back to having the complexity/weight/cost of a seldom used transmission.. perhaps a much simpler transmission can be used on the back since most of the low end grunt work will be down by the FWD electric motor.
The simplest solution would be a pure serial configuration with another motor on the back driving the rear wheels on occasion.
The best configuration is probably a Prius version with slightly bigger motors and a large plug-in pack.. capable of pure EV driving up to a reasonable speed and good highway mileage when the ICE kicks in.
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:36 pm
OK, so if you have the extra hardware, then I would assume there would also have to be extra control systems and software to make the transfer transparent to the driver. It would make it a much more complex system than the Volt, don’t you think?
So how is this going to be the inexpensive car for what everyone else around here calls “the masses”???
And IMHO, the “face” on the front of the PX-MiEV is ugly……
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Perhaps room for future bigger motor/generators?
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:46 pm
They did that on the 2010 model. Increased all three, ICE, MG1 & MG2. That’s the model I saw the gap in. I forgot where/ the link though dangit….
Ironically Toy now has a plugin version of the same model that is supposed to go up to 63mph AER and 10miles AER.
Could be coincidence though cuz I’m no genius.
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Excellent points Dave, as usual. I would add, the Mitsubishi approach is TOO COMPLICATED. Why increase the cost of the vehicle by adding complicated mechanisms (for example, switched mechanical linkage to the ICE) when for a smaller cost increment you can just increase the horsepower of the electric motor?! Then you get the occasional surge by all-electric means instead of a clunky mechanical linkage to the ICE.
And look at all the ways that vehicle can break down or malfunction! I would never buy this technology because it has more ways to end up in the repair shop than you can count. The Volt concept is much cleaner. As they say, KISS (keep it simple stupid).
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October 1st, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Yep. I know the style of the VOLT is set. But since we are just over 13 months away (hopefully) from the first delivery of one, now would be a good time to show a finished body in some color other than Silver or Black, and make sure it has all of its bumper panels painted correctly, and all of the tail light lenses and fog lights are in place. A showroom ready model in Red Jewel Tintcoat would do a lot for the VOLT image right now.
With so many new contenders getting tons of press on this site, GM Marketing needs to step it up a notch… No, make that 3 or 4 notches.
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October 1st, 2009 at 1:01 pm
ICAM. The US needs a manufacturing base. We’ve been living on credit to keep our standard of living up. And that’s not sustainable. If we want long term sustainable growth (which we need in order to maintain our standard of living), we need to produce things. (We also need to live within our means, but that’s a different issue.)
You can’t buy 100% made in America anymore. (Well, outside of restaurants and craft shows.) But you can buy as much American content as possible. Every little bit helps.
For example, I recently bought a kindle. I’m not happy that it was made in China. But my other choice was a Sony reader, which is also made in China. At least with the kindle, the profits go to an American company. And I think at least some of the engineering was done here too.
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October 1st, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Interesting point of view, especially given that no one who was involved in that has anything to do with currently making cars. They are all dead.
So you hold kids in a certain country responsible for something their parents or grandparents did?
Let it go man, just let it go.
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October 1st, 2009 at 1:44 pm
I’m generally with you. Just thinking outloud…
Now what do we do on cars. Suppose the smug and arrogant Japanese who feel superior to the lazy americans and who bombed us years ago produce a car that can allow us to reduce oil usage and lower the profits of the superior Muslim nations who feel religiously superior to the infidel americans and bombed us a few years ago.
Do we send money to Japan to slow the money to the mullahs?
decisons decisions…
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October 1st, 2009 at 1:48 pm
PS.
I learned during the Govt bailout hearings testimony that the Japanese car makers who setup shop in the US simply use us a ignorant laboreres in a foreign land. They supply their factories with Japanese made machine tools and equipment according to the US tooling companies who supply GM, Ford, Chrysler, and the Korean car companies who setup shop in the US.
Made in the USA is not as good as Made by the USA.
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October 1st, 2009 at 2:15 pm
http://wiki.gmnext.com/wiki/index.php/Samson_Tractors
Connect the dots?
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October 1st, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Yes, but Don,
This is all **new radical stuff**. Really really radical, for which no-one has very much history, except GM with EV1.
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October 1st, 2009 at 2:56 pm
GM needs to surprise everyone by showing up in Tokyo with a street-ready Cadillac Converj. That would be HUGE. (I can dream, can’t I…)
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October 1st, 2009 at 3:06 pm
I will add that one because it too is also “Butt” ugly. Not a Gay look though.
You really need to come out of the closet. Or your just very feminine which is just fine. I don’t insult gay people, dislike nor disrespect…. Looking Gay is certainly a gay look.
It’ssssss jussssst tha faaaactsss sssissster LM”ASS”O
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October 1st, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Hey EVO,
Anything “Honda” has got my attention to at least take a look.
The scooters are neat for smaller folks, but when you’re 6′3″ and work out, you just don’t sort of fit on one of those.
Now if Honda made a three wheeler with a rear track of, say, only 30″ for two rear wheels (sorry, two front wheels look too weird IMO), but, if Honda also put into an electric trike a 3000iu genset to make it an EREV, then it would most certainly capture my attention by being a really serious EREV contender.
(That would be great in a lacquered black IMO).
What do you think about that sort of plan EVO?
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October 1st, 2009 at 3:19 pm
And cost, BTW, as many have already correctly pointed out.
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October 1st, 2009 at 3:20 pm
(Ran out of edit time),
Those could be extremely profitable. GM could do that too.
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October 1st, 2009 at 3:26 pm
nuclearboy at 1:48 pm:
Amen.
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October 1st, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Captain:
Yeah, I bought a red white and blue, mom and apple pie, Chevy Silverado in 2006. It wasn’t until I got it home that I came to the terrible realization that it was assembled in Saltillo Mexico. booy, did i feel like a chump. Read those content stickers on the window before you sign the check is my advice.
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October 1st, 2009 at 3:57 pm
WSJ “GM, the largest U.S. auto maker, said it sold 156,673 cars and light trucks in September. It said that figure represents a 36% decline from the prior month.
However, GM’s sales chief, Mark LaNeve, said “the fourth quarter looks brighter and our year-over-year comparisons should look more favorable.”
———————————–
I love that Mark LaNeve
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October 1st, 2009 at 4:12 pm
This is Erroneous Information. GM sales are down a whopping 45 percent ! That is the most of any manufacturer. They are in deep deep doo doo. Don’t listen to the Spin Meisters cuz THEY LIE.
Do the math. GM LOST MARKETSHARE. STILL LOSING BILLIONS OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS. WHEN WILL THIS MADNESS END.
Shut this inept corp down NOW !!
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October 1st, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Wher ever I Go YUGO!!!!!
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October 1st, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Of course the “observer” is not be taken any more seriously than any of us. It seems to me that the battery isn’t “discharged” after 40 miles. rather, the engine kicks on after 40 miles 40 miles to keep the battery above a minimum charge level. The car always runs off the battery and therefore always gives the same performance. Of course we will know the real answer soon enough.
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October 1st, 2009 at 5:13 pm
@ MRR
Moving on to the 1980’s, a fresh dot to connect:
Did you like the Land Rover Freelander when it came out?
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October 1st, 2009 at 5:29 pm
No opinion.
(biting tongue no less than 11 times after reading the post carefully)
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October 1st, 2009 at 5:43 pm
I wonder when we’ll stop playing around with gas vehicles. Many people on this site have whined about the cost. If cost is the only consideration then the government needs to pass laws that mandate a certain percentage of vehicles be electric over the next year or two. That should provide serious carmakers sufficient time to produce the necessary models to stay in business. As far as consumers go, if they want to drive they should be prepared to pay for electrification..
Every article I’ve read points to severe global warming if nothing is done. The cost to the individual of trying to prevent global war will pale compared to the cost of living with a much hotter climate.
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October 1st, 2009 at 5:45 pm
The madness will end when people like you grow up.
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October 1st, 2009 at 5:53 pm
http://www.globenewswire.com/newsroom/news.html?d=174555
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October 1st, 2009 at 5:53 pm
I watched a show the other night that showed the problems at GM to compete, The Union still doesn’t appear to be on board to cut costs and the same nonsense that has gone on for years still goes on.
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October 2nd, 2009 at 11:46 am
I would hazard a guess it won’t be nearly as complicated as the Prius system. None of that electric planetary variable diff mumbo-jumbo.
No, what I would guess it will be like the system Subaru was thinking about but then never really pursued which cleverly placed electric motors around a conventional drivetrain.
Imagine a conventional clutch/transmission drivetrain with an electric motor stuck somewhere after the clutch yet before the actual transmission part, and add a motor on the rear wheels.
Now you can have 3 operating modes for the front, and the rear is always electric.
For the front you can:
Open the clutch: Engine disengaged, electric drive of wheels
Close the clutch: transmission in neutral: Engine driving generator only for charging (drive coming from rear wheel electric motor).
Close the clutch: engage the transmission: Engine driving wheels, electric motor either charging or driving, depending on control.
A variant would be even simpler to just sandwich an Honda style IMA where the electric motor replaces the flywheel, but then you’d lose the ability to stop the motor entirely while using the front electric motor. I suspect that a larger rear motor would be more likely specified in that scenario if you really wanted electric operation.
Subaru was actually postulating that variant and a big motor at the output end of the transmission and the AWD supplied by their normal AWD. Still, you can do a lot with a conventional system supplemented by electric motors rather than going to the Prius approach.
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October 2nd, 2009 at 6:04 pm
The Honda CR-Z actually looks like it would sell. It has very nice styling and better performance than a typical ‘hybrid’.
As far as the EV-N goes. Well, maybe one of Honda’s little humanoid robots might look good in one, but no carbon based life form would.
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October 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
The gay people aren’t who you think they are. One of the gay guys I’ve met worked at ESPN. His should-be-husband was a skydiving instructor with a PHD. They both looked and acted like jocks.
And the lady-biker that worked in the office next to his in this particular office was straight and had a thing for short chubby geeky guys.
Things are more interesting than they first appear. Just enough people match the stereotype to keep it alive, though.
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