AND 
Nissan Expects 20,000 LEAF EV Pre-Orders
The LEAF is the 100 mile range pure electric BEV that Nissan plans on launching in North America in late 2010. The car was announced last year and only named and revealed this Spring.
Carlos Tavares is Nissan’s chairman for the Americas. He revealed that Nissan plans on taking pre-orders for the vehilce beginning in Spring 2010. Presumably pricing will be set as that time as well.
Taveres said “we are confident we will have 20,000 reservations for the Leaf by the time it goes on sale.”
Nissan has already announced it will be launching the car in five markets in the US and plans to sell 1000 cars in each to start. Driving behavior and the role of charging infrastructure in each of these regions will be studied in a $99 million DOE-funded study with infrastructure partner eTec.
Initial LEAFs will be built in and imported from Japan, but Nissan has announced it eventually plans to build the car in Smyrna Tennessee at a plant that they also received a $2 billion DOE loan to re-tool. By 2012 they expect to be able to produce 150,000 cars and 200,000 batteries per year there.
After nearly three years since it was first unveiled, GM has not agreed to the idea of taking pre-orders, and are only reportedly planning to build around 10,000 Volts in the 2011 calender year. They have also not yet officially announced any definite launch locations.
As we know the GM-Volt.com list shows more than 50,000 people want to buy a VOlt, and even GM vice chairman Bob Lutz cited this strong demand.
Why are there such significant differences between the two company’s plans? Will this announcement lead GM to shift strategy?
Source (Automotive News, sub reqd.)
220 Responses to “Nissan Expects 20,000 LEAF EV Pre-Orders”
Leave a Reply
Recent Posts
- New York Times Report on the Chevy Volt Generator Mode Driving Experience
- CNBC Test Drive of the Chevy Volt in Charge Sustaining Mode
- Chevy Volt Will be Able to Hit 104 MPH
- Chevy Volt and Battery Program Update
- GM to Announce Initial Volt Markets at LA Auto Show
- Coalition of Industry Leaders Releases Roadmap to get 120 Million Electric Cars on US Roads by 2030
- Op-Ed: GM Reports a $1.2 Billion Loss, but Has the Cash To See Volt Well into Production and Beyond
- Three Chevy Volt Paint Color Finalists Announced
- What BMW Has Learned from the MINI E Program So Far: That They May Need to Build EREVs
- GM: EVs are Cool, but EREV’s are Really Cool
Recent GM-Volt Forum Posts
- Hacked e-mails reveal global-warming fraud? November 20, 2009This is how open minded liberals operate. "And, perhaps most reprehensibly," Delingpole writes, "a long series of communications discussing how best... […]BigCityCat
- Is the Volt Engine Direct Injected? November 20, 2009I recently read that the Cruze's engine will be DI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Cruze#Chevrolet_Cruze Obviously the Cruze's engine will... […]omnimoeish
- First Reports of the Chevy Volt's Charge-Sustaining (Generator) Mode Operation November 20, 2009The first two journalists' reports of what it's like to drive the Chevy Volt while in generator mode operation have been published. 1) New York... […]admin
- Florida giving $5000 rebate to convert Prius to plug-in November 20, 2009- Probably Hymotion - $10,400 standard price - $5000 state rebate - $1000 additional federal incentives - $4,400 final cost. Hurry because their... […]Texas
- New York Times CSM story November 20, 2009Link to the New York Times story of November 19, 2009 about a test ride of the Volt in charge sustaining... […]srschrier
- New video: Volt drive in Detroit November 19, 2009November 19, 2009 Detroit Free Press story with video featuring a Volt drive with Andrew Farah in... […]srschrier
- New Video: Volt Corrosion Testing November 18, 2009From GM VoltAge, the Volt's corrosion... […]srschrier
GM-Volt.com is not affiliated with General Motors Company
All contents copyright 2007-2009 GM-Volt.com, LLC - All Rights Reserved
Home | Contact | Privacy Policy | About | Back to Top
September 30th, 2009 at 6:18 am
Nissan, at least eliminate the LEAF’s “whiskers” and redo the grill. My suggestions:
1) Simply delete the catfish whiskers (or lower lip) connecting the fog lamps beneath the grill
2) Replace the grill insert with one styled something like the Volt’s grill inserts shown, OR at least paint the upper grill insert (now blue) flat black so it almost disappears
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:24 am
The front hood/grill reminds me of H.R. Pufnstuf
Taking pre-orders is a smart idea. They can easily gauge the demand before they start producing (although I would think the factory will already have been built).
I’m curious though. Does anyone else (besides me) think 20,000 is an ambitious number for a car without a range extender?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:30 am
Yes, I agree that 20K is a very ambitious number for a car without a range extender! I would’nt bother even if the price were right! Give me volt-tech! I hope GM comes around and looks at the demand on this website alone, and ramps up production.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:35 am
20,000 in 5 markets is just 4,000 per market. I’m sure the markets will be main US cities with shorter average distance commutes where a 100 mile range won’t induce the same level of range anxiety as could happen in more rural areas.
I don’t think it would be hard to dig up 4,000 buyers in each of 5 major US metro areas.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:38 am
Carlos Taveres: My apologies, but you can’t FORCE the LEAF on customers as it’s styled now!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:38 am
20,000 units seems like a high number when taken at face value. The larger states will purchase 1000 units each. Los Angeles and San Fransisco will consume 300 each. With the smaller cities in America moving 50 to 100 each.
The spring of 2010 will be a time of EV media advertising bombardment. Nissan will benefit not only from Leaf advertising, but from all EV/EREV advertising.
The 100 mile range of the Leaf will be downplayed. The peppy 0-60 time and clean inexpensive operation will be the strong selling points.
BTW: The frog-like appearance of the Leaf will not scare buyers away. Especially the 18-25 age group market.
=D~
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:39 am
Very smart. Take pre-orders to scrape off a few of those who might have tried to buy a Volt had it been available.
I suggest that GM take pre-orders at the same time to give those early adopters a choice.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:39 am
“H.R. Pufnstuf” or “Catfish II” —either way, Rashiid, I think we agree the front grill & hood are just plain U-G-L-Y!!! I was mortified when I first saw the LEAF …..how could a major automobile manufacturer not realize how critically important every detail of styling is to public acceptance?!?
IMHO their guesstimate of 20,000 will prove to be simply outrageously high unless they can turn this UGLY DUCKLING into a GRACEFUL SWAN!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:56 am
nasaman:
Beauty is a very personal thing. I do not like the looks of the leaf, but that does not mean it is a failure.
I would never buy a Nissan Cube either, but someone must be……….
I think the real topic here is the fact that Nissan is going to take pre-orders for this vehicle!
GM – Take a look at this! We are here. We are ready. We want to be early adopters, and would gladly be part of a feedback reporting system for you. Don’t forsake us for the movie stars and the politicians…………
JMHO
NPNS
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:03 am
I don’t know about others, but leasing the battery for $150 per month may kill the idea of leasing the LEAF for me. Thoughts from others?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:09 am
20k cars is reasonable I think. There are many, many people in my neighborhood (built 1951) that only do local driving. Pick up the grand kids at school. Go to the stores. Go to church. etc.
There is a huge group of people that commute/drive less than 20 miles per day and keep two or more cars. The Leaf would serve well as the city/neighborhood car with highway speed capability. The added safety of never having to go to a gas station is a big plus as well.
We are already plugging in computers, phones, leaf blowers, mowers etc. It is not a huge leap to plug in a car.
As far as the generation interested in these cars… My father-in-law (82) is seriously considering an xB or a Cube!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:14 am
I would definitely be interested in the Leaf over the Volt depending on cost. Lack of range extender is not an issue (its actually a drawback to me on the Volt). However like others I’m not sure I can get past the pure homliness of this car. The Japanese need to hire some European stylists.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:20 am
From 2 posts back, we know the cities are Seattle, Portland, San Diego, Phoenix and Tucson. Each is easily large enough to sell 4,000 cars. And, despite the mixed views expressed here, I like the catfish appearance — it’s funky and has some attitude — and announces that it is a little different.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:23 am
You are correct. This is a move to preempt Volt sales. Toyota will do the same thing with their plug-in Prius.
If GM does NOT get a pre-order plan in place, they WILL LOSE sales of the Volt to their competitors.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:25 am
Whatever one thinks of the styling or cities, it is amazing how much faster Nissan seems to be moving along with the LEAF than is gm with the Volt. With gm the Volt seems to be hitched behind a mule. It is moving along I guess, but very very very slowly.
One gets the impression that Nissan believes in the LEAF as a real car while gm envisions the Volt as only symbolic.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:26 am
For me it does not rule it in or rule it out.
Everything depends on availability, actual performance, and the total price.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:29 am
Some will be here in Knoxville. We were told by Nissan and the govt that we’re getting federal dollars to support electrification infrastructure and this car.
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/aug/06/knox-in-line-to-get-car-chargers/
“The company said its first Tennessee stations will be in Knoxville, Chattanooga and Nashville. It also plans to establish chargers in San Diego, Seattle, Phoenix and Tucson, Ariz., and the Oregon cities of Eugene, Corvallis, Salem and Portland.”
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:31 am
Side note: I think Toyota plans to make 20,000 to 30,000 Plug-in Priuses in their first year of “mass production.” So the 10,000 number for the Volt does seem like a significant difference perhaps warranting a possible strategy shift.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:33 am
By 2012, being able to produce 150,000 cars and 200,000 batteries there might indicate a 33% margin for reserve batteries for LEAF.
While taking pre-orders or reservations is one way to get attention for the marketing departments, I think it wise for GM to not do that right now, because people’s decisions a very high percentage of the time, is based on style, (if not color available), and, people would not have wanted to reserve for a style or color that ultimately does not serve their preferences. (Yes, I would not want a black color here in the Texas heat, so I’m no exception to that as well for only the color black, otherwise, a conservative color in light green would be fine. But these might be the simple reasons pre-orders aren’t feasible right now.) However, I do think it a really good idea to conduct some sort of poll for at least what color those of us on the want list would prefer, because a sample size of 50,000 does have a strong statistical validity and merit. The current color choices of Malibu might be a start, then, later, if other colors are brought forward, then the poll could be conducted once again so the planning might be brought more to a final stage for color selections.
On a side note: It seems to me that new home builders would astonish new customers if builders were to just merely pre-install a 240 volt junction box in the garage toward the back, left of center to accept a future Plug-in Charger.
(Would 8 gauge, 4 conductor copper be best? EE’s?) .
The home builder could have this extremely inexpensive feature, with a blank plate covering it up, with a label that says
**********************************************
* “Plug-In Vehicle Charger Junction” *
**********************************************
Wouldn’t that be extremely cool?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:43 am
Post Script.
The junction box could be located up near the ceiling far away from the floor, and, the cables NOT connected to anything in the breaker panel. The ends of the cable in the breaker panel could be coiled-up and enclosed inside a protective plastic box inside the breaker panel, and properly labeled “Plug in Junction Box Cables to be terminated and properly load-tested only by a licensed electrician”.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:43 am
Lyle asks
Why are there such significant differences between the two company’s plans? Will this announcement lead GM to shift strategy?
————-
These are 64-dollar questions.
We can only hope that a lot is happening behind the scenes at gm right now.
Perhaps before long they will pull back the curtain.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:44 am
Driving behavior and the role of charging infrastructure in each of these regions will be studied in a $99 million DOE-funded study with infrastructure partner eTec.
Good grief! Imagine if they used that money to produce some vehicles. We are living in a land of lunatics.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:47 am
I think GM will continue to move slowly until gas prices go up, then they’ll speed things up. My local gas station is at $2.30. GM’s perspective is put things in place and when the gas prices go up ramp up as fast as possible.
Nissan knows the future is electric so they are moving to capture market share by 2012.
Below is an article that I agree with. As most of us know, the problem with importing Oil is more than just the fact that oil spikes can cause recessions, but politicians are paralyzed because “what if oil doesn’t spike during their term”? The other problems of course are funding our enemies, demaning military presence to keep the oil flowing and the most overlooked problem is that is money flowing out of our economy instead of into it.
The best solution which the government would never do would simply be to put a high tax on gas, and use that tax for both the roads and credits for the electric cars. Then we’d be pumping money INTO our economy.
http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm?aid=2368
If government announced that they would increase the gas tax 10 cents a year for the next 15 years (starting now), thats all that it would take.
People buying cars in 2012 would know that over the course of ownership they wouldn’t want to buy a car that used much gas because they would know the price is going to rise. And that tax would pay for their EV/BEV/EREV/ tax credit.
Of course folks would complain that the people that can’t afford new cars would be stuck paying the tax, but that would lead to demand for cheap BEV mobility.
This plan would also require the tax to be on diesel fuel, and that tax money should probably go to some sort of tax credit for truckers, but we couldn’t give diesel cars a huge advantage by not taxing their fuel.
And this is a tax that is long overdue because we haven’t been taxing the true cost of importing oil to our economy (foreign wars, lost jobs as money flows out etc.).
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:47 am
Jason … the way NGMCO wins is to double down with both the Volt and a Voltec truck in 2010.
=D~
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:49 am
HOME BUILDER ALERT: “On a side note: It seems to me that new home builders would astonish new customers if builders were to just merely pre-install a 240 volt junction box in the garage toward the back, left of center to accept a future Plug-in Charger.
The home builder could have this extremely inexpensive feature, with a blank plate covering it up, with a label that says
****************************************************
* “Plug-In Vehicle Charger Junction” *
****************************************************
Wouldn’t that be extremely cool?”
GREAT IDEA (in your post #8), DAN!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:50 am
Regarding Van’s comment of only 10,000 Volts in the 1st year–> As 10K is the number world-wide, it appears that the number per city will be very small, and the number per dealership even smaller.
The “per dealer” number is important, as it will be hard for a dealership to take on the costs for service equipment and staff training unless there will be some volume to justify it. People will of course hope for a pay off in following years, but in today’s climate of difficult financing, a year or two can seem like forever.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:52 am
the rising yen wont allow them to make lot of those leaves vehicles and import it to the USA. a weaker dollar means stronger yen and higher oil prices and so they have to make the leaf in the USA itself to be profitable. they wont be so quick to produce the 20000 leaf.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:59 am
I think it’s ridiculous that GM will only produce 10,000 in 2011. There are 50k people waiting to buy. Let them (us) pre-order them and be the first to purchase one. GM needs the cash, they need the positive comments, they need the media attention and they need people to begin buying their products. It ticks me off that they are being tepid about this launch. It feels like they don’t want it to be successful; that they don’t want an Volt in every driveway. What is up with their thinking?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 8:15 am
The Leaf is a simpler car. Much less software.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Just wondering, does $2,000,000,000.00 of our tax dollars make Nissan another Government motors type company?
Yes it does anger me!!!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 8:32 am
BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!
one of GM’s TOP VOLT execs resigns, effective today to start EV consulting firm…Kruse leaves
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090930/AUTO01/909300326/1148/rss25
In other news..the mighty T, issues a recall for 3.8 million vehicles, its largest ever US recall:
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090930/AUTO01/909300367/1148/rss25/Toyota-to-recall-3.8-million-vehicles
related to recall
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090929/AUTO01/909290412/1148/rss25/Government-issues–urgent–warning-to-remove-Toyota–Lexus-floor-mats
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 8:41 am
The first Gen Volt will sell at a loss Kevin.
You do the math.
They will not spool up production until Gen 2.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 8:44 am
You took the words right out of my mouth.
But I will add another thing. Nissan is a foreign car company from Japan. They enjoy a better perception of quality than GM.
So they have some wiggle room there.
GM doesn’t enjoy the same perception.
GM needs to be “spot-on” with the Volt. They can’t afford any bad press or else they’re sunk. I, for one, am very happy that GM is paying attention to detail and testing. I am glad they are not rushing the car to market. They are in the position of needing to make this car as close to perfect as possible. They know that and they are doing that. But it takes time.
I
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Off Topic;
There is a new GM commercial running here in response to a run of Toyota commercials claiming the best fuel economy in Canada.
The GM spot shows a Camry and a Malibu, Corolla and Cobalt, Rav4 and Equinox and Tundra and Silverado… (The GM cars get better mileage)
“May the best car win.”
I thought it was well done. No real negativity, just that the GM cars actually get better economy.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Lyle ,
Time to start a new website
nissanleaf.com , we could help Nissan with the final design and marketing .
Just put a link to it from here .
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 8:57 am
A BEV is very much a simpler car than a EREV. Basically, all Nissan has to work on is the battery technology. GM has to work on the battery and a generator set and how these two technologies are going to work together. GM knows there are lots of people out there like me, who want a replacement for their current car, not just a supplement to their current car. It’s a tougher problem, so it takes longer.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Dan,
Copper wire ampacity:
http://www.cerrowire.com/default.aspx?id=46
10 gauge copper, 30 Amps
8 gauge copper, 40 Amps
6 gauge copper, 55 Amps
4 gauge copper, 70 Amps
3 gauge copper, 85 Amps
It looks like SAE J1772 specifies 70 Amps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
So I would go with 4 gauge copper.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:03 am
A Voltec Colorado “Zap” would definately be a great surprise!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:09 am
#8 Dan Petit Said:
“…It seems to me that new home builders would astonish new customers if builders were to just merely pre-install a 240 volt junction box in the garage toward the back, left of center to accept a future Plug-in Charger…”
——
I agree!
______________________________________________________
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:12 am
I think Nissan has an interesting idea. With 50,000 people having signed up to buy Volts at this website, GM is shooting themselves in the foot to only produce 10,000 the first year. If GM were to take pre-orders, they would in theory have 50,000 preorders — enough to cover five years production of Generation 1 Volts at this level of production. This, and the fact that GM appears to be planning to take a loss on the vehicle, tells me that management (i.e. the government) is not particularly confident of their vehicle. I’d be more confident in the Volt if GM demonstrated more confidence with their marketing, production, and profitability time scale.
Another interesting idea that Nissan has is to sell the vehicle separately from the battery, which they lease. I can foresee a day when a consumer will go to an auto dealer, buy the car that they choose, and then shop among battery producers over the internet for the best battery at the best price to power that vehicle. The opportunities for free market competition to develop and bring the best possible product to market are endless.
Respectfully,
Dr. Ibringdoh
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Price, that’s what will make or break this veh. 20K + 200 a month batt lease forget it.
30K with the Batt forget it.
20K with the Batt some success.
It is ugly but I don’t think that will effect early sales.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:18 am
I can’t say that I agree with you on the grill and such, Nasaman. I disagree with you so rarely that I feel kinda funny saying this, but that is just the way I see it. I might change my mind if I had better pictures to see of the Leaf or could see it in person. Other than that, I am kind of intrigued by the Leaf’s looks and that particular color as shown above.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Who is building a house now???????
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:22 am
I don’t think 20,000 is too ambitious for Nissan. There are well over several million commuters who this car could fulfill their daily driving needs. And that is jut tapping the easy sales. I like the pre-order decision very much. It definitely tells Nissan what and where the demand is and lets them tailor the launches to fit the pre-orders. Smart thinking! Listen up GM.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Agreed. Funky is in style again. I like it. Go for it Nissan. I like for my hybrid or electric vehicle to be distinctive in appearance. I don’t want it to look just like the vehicle next door that is fully gasoline powered. I want it to be different. I am not trying to make a “green” statement with my vehicle purchase, but I do not want it to be just another “run of the mill” vehicle. Kind of like the Volt has been toned down to be. More of the same looking vehicle. Park it in the car parking lot and you won’t be able to tell it from a half dozen others that look very similar. I am not getting down on the Volt to the point that I think it is ugly, but I still remember the original concept’s looks as compared to the pre-production vehicle’s looks. The Volt is good looking. Same for the Leaf. The Leaf says “Hey! I am different. Look at me.” Anyway, it is just my opinion.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:31 am
I notice you spell your name incorrectly. Shouldn’t it be “Neal”? (Just kidding.) My name is Neal.
And you will be able to purchase a Leaf much sooner than most of the rest of the country. If you decide to do so, good luck and keep us informed.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:35 am
Pre-orders were a disaster for GM with the Camaro. So they may have decided to avoid it with the Volt. Especially since we’ll probably have to wait much longer for the Volts than the Camaro buyers did for their cars.
They already know how many they plan to make, so they don’t need to gauge demand for production numbers…
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:39 am
If you’re just looking at five cities getting 20K pre-orders it may not be such a cakewalk. Probably depends on pricing. As a benchmark, San Diego has the highest rate of solar installations in California and the number of installations is just over 2000.
I’m not sure though, whether he’s referring to the test rollout in the five areas that are part of the infrastructure test or the more general nationwide rollout which will occur later. If 20K pre-orders sugget a sales rate of 100K/annum, then it’s probably the latter. Does anyone know the number of pre-orders for the Camaro?
As a note, there are actually more cities in the rollout than the five you mentioned. Phoenix and Tucson are part of one of the five clusters, in the Portland cluster there are some smaller cities in Oregon, and there are several cities in Tennessee which are part of the Smyrna cluster (where they are planning to build the cars).
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Sorry, Jim I. That is just what GM will do. They need the politicians for the infusion of money and some “pay-back”. They need the movie stars for the PR. That is just the way it will go, I am afraid. I will be willing to bet that less than 1 tenth of 1 percent of the Volt fans on this site will be able to purchase a Volt during 2011 and 2012.
Maybe I am being a little too pessimistic today. I will have to watch that. IMO.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:41 am
RB,
I am sorry to say it, but you are probably closer to the truth than any of us would want to admit.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Actually that isn’t true. Accountants can make anything the truth. But the truth is this. The day the first REAL PRODUCTION Volt rolls off the assembly line you have to throw away the 2 billion or whatever the true development costs and tooling of the factories less goverment aid was.
You can’t say that the first car cost 2 billion. From that point on GM will be able to make money at $40,000 per car because they have already done the development and tooling. If the battery cost them $10,000 and all the new parts are added up it won’t cost them more than $40,000 to make the car.
But the more cars they make the lower the cost of the car. So the car can’t come down from $40,000 to $30,000 until they commit (Like Nissan) to producing more than 200,000 cars a year.
Nissan has already made that commitment to mass production so they’ll be able to lower their cost faster.
Perhaps like MuddyRoverRob says, they won’t make that commitment until Gen 2. By Gen 2 they will have a better battery and a tested concept. But by then Nissan and others will be ahead of GM when GM had the head start. That is just sad.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Everyone wants what they can’t get. Good move GM. Why not keep people begging for more Volts?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:43 am
That ad has been showing in the Youngstown, OH area for quite a while.
I agree with you. It is a good ad!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:44 am
It is running in Michigan as well. Very well done.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:44 am
One gets the impression that Nissan believes in the LEAF as a real car while gm envisions the Volt as only symbolic.
Nice summary. Nissan is making a very big bet. It may pay off or it may not, but you can’t say Nissan isn’t going all in. Put another way, GM is putting its toes in to test the water and Nissan is just jumping in.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:45 am
The reason to lease the battery seperate is because part of their sale pitch will be to lease a battery for less than you pay for gas.
That is already a winning sales pitch in Europe or places where gas is over $5 a gallon.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:46 am
Given these numbers, it will probably take at least another 5 if not 10 years for electric vehicles to save fuel at a relevant level.
Therefore, for the next few years way more fuel can be saved by more efficient ICE vehicles or conventional hybrids.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:47 am
I agree that GM needs to take their time and get it right. But why wait until next year (early summer at best possibly) to release 500 or so Volts out into the “wild”. Why not do it by the end of the year to get some real world winter testing done. They don’t have to have all of them ready to go, but release them as they are made in batches of 5 or 10. If they would do that they could release the Volt for sale much sooner than the end of next year. Maybe even by that July 4th date we keep hoping for.
Independence. We celebrate it even as we give it up little by little.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:47 am
The Nissan Cube is a decent looking car if you want something unique looking without being a sports car. I’m not crazy about it, but I can see why somone would want one. The Leaf on the other hand, IMHO, is literally the ugliest car I’ve ever seen in my life. At least, judging from the pictures. Hopefully, it’s not that bad in real life.
If the Volt looked like the leaf, I’m not sure I could bring myself to buy one. And there are very few cars I would say that about. Looks are generally not on my priority list when it comes to buying a car. But there are limits.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:49 am
I just hope the world doesn’t get the wrong idea when this model fails. It’s just too damn ugly for our market. I’m sorry but it looks like a catfish. Here is the lowdown:
1) Looks like a catfish.
2) It’s just another EV with no range and no charging infrastructure.
3) Can only be used for a second car.
4) It’s too ugly! Do you hear me Nissan? Please change it ASAP.
I simply can’t understand how this got though the American design committee. Is this some joke? I want people fired over this! I’m serious.
The next wave of EVs is just too important to screw up. The car has to be attractive or at least cute, not resemble one of the ugliest fish in the world. WTF!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:50 am
That’s probably why they’re going to limit the initial Volts to certain markets even though I think they’d be better off with a nation-wide launch. And probably certain dealers within that market. (Those that agree to go through the training,etc.)
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:52 am
The cars from Japan are known to have designed into them a “face” for both the front and rear ends of the cars. So it is understandable that the Leaf follows this design trend.
I guess nasaman hates “face” type cars……
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Well yes and no. Yes if the work on battery technology you spoke of includes a battery management system software and hardware. No, if it did not include those. Even a fully BEV must have that in order to do the job properly. It takes more than hooking up some electric motors to batteries and a transmissions of sorts. I suspect Nissan has been working on this vehicle for well over a year. And, yes, it is much simpler than the Volt. And Nissan will market it that way.
Has Nissan mentioned whether they have made a decision on leasing or selling the batteries with the Leaf?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:55 am
The Leaf looks fine to me. It looks like a commuter car, which is more or less what it is. The Volt also looks like a commuter car, just different.
But at the end of the day it’s more about the drive train and handling than anything else. As a GM buyer I’d be more inclined to buy a non descript Buick than a Cadillac with more bling. With respect to how what you value influences your perceptions of beauty, some people think solar panels are ugly and should be hidden in the tiles while others think they’re beautiful and should be easily visible.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:55 am
It’s easy to make the case that a $20,000 (?) Leaf with a $150/mo battery lease is more economical than a conventional car as long as gas stays above $2.50/g – ish.
If all the smart technology (smart phones, gps) manages the range anxiety sufficiently ( which I think it will) then Nissan’s high volume dreams may very quickly become a reality.
I just can’t understand why GM (and many posters on this boad) refuse to recognize the potential here.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:55 am
I see a lot of vehicles on the road that I think “Gosh, what a terrible looking car”. Then I start really noticing them and noticing them. They are everywhere, it seems. What is ugly to you is appealing to someone else. Nissan will sell everyone of them they make as long as the quality is there and it performs as well as they say it does. There is an untapped market that will rear its (might I say ugly?) head as soon as the price of gas gets to a certain point where people start feeling the pinch in their pocket books again. IMO.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:57 am
N Riley, I feel so strongly about the ugly look I’m going to swing by the forum and put up a poll. Please feel free to place your vote.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:58 am
“Recipients of last year’s banking bailouts.” Sorry, that’s all I can think of at the moment.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:58 am
UPDATE on my 2010 Fusion Hybrid..
I have to maintain travel logs for my incometax forms as I use my vehilce for work..
On average for the past 5 years I have spent between $250 and $375 per month on fuel for whatever vehicle I have been driving..
The milage varies a bit but is pretty consistant..
With my 2010 Fusion Hybrid I spent $ 101.00 Canadian on Fuel for September… Averaged 5.4 L/100 KMS (52.3 MPG Canadian)
With savings like that … everyone should be driving a hybrid of some type..
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Wow, that is some significant news (about Bob Kruse). But, fret not. One man does not a complete team make.
Losing an important individual is always a setback, but this is a very strong team end-to-end. Folks like Frank Weber, Jon Lauckner, Tony Posawatz, and Greg Ciesel come to mind.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Ugliest car ever? Have you ever heard of the Aztec?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:08 am
That is a bad recall.
Now I’m going to have to remove my drivers
side floor mat in both my Toyotas. Bummer…
Not like other recalls for cars that would spontaneously combust.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:13 am
I think this might be a good idea if the beta testers can be kept silent somehow. You might remember that Windows Vista got slammed a lot before it was released. Sales on that system have been horrible.
I would bet that when GM releases those 500 Volts into the wild, they will be pretty darn sure the cars are near perfect.
Oh. I’m with you on the independence thing. But that has been disappearing for decades. Every law they pass takes a little more of our freedom away. It doesn’t matter who is in power when that happens.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:13 am
“The Leaf on the other hand, IMHO, is literally the ugliest car I’ve ever seen in my life”. I agree, Laura —and it’s nice to hear a woman’s confirmation of my view!*
What I hope your comments as well as mine & others here who find the LEAF so unattractive will achieve is to get Nissan’s attention —it can’t be difficult to at least make simple improvements to the front end like I suggested in post #1.
*I believe most here would agree a woman’s sense of style is a bit more discerning.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Don’t forget to cast your vote in the forum section! Ugly or beautiful?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:16 am
A Voltec truck in 2010, 2011 or 2012 would be great. I don’t see it happening though. I don’t understand GM anymore. I saw the new Buick LaCrosse and it was over $36,000 as shown. Now, I know Buick is a high priced vehicle than Chevrolet, but still $36k is a lot of money. I will grant you it is a great looking Buick. Maybe one of the best Buick has ever produced. But $36k? I was thinking about trading my 2009 Honda on one until I saw that price. I will just wait for the Volt.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:16 am
“Why are there such significant differences between the two company’s plans?”
——————————–
Nissan wants to sell you an electric car.
GM wants you to see their electric car in the window, then come in and buy something else.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Regular is $2.91 at our local ARCO station today.
Amen on the “externalized costs”.
LJGTVWOTR!!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Talk is cheap. Whiskey costs money.
Nissan is talking pre-orders, possibly with a non refundable deposit.
GM-Volt.com has a survey of interest.
GM knows from bitter experience how few people actually fork up the big bucks.
The Volt could be a primary car for more people than the Leaf could. It has the range for a commute plus errands after work.
At least the Leaf does look like a practical second car. It can handle a commute plus pick up the kids on the way home. The EV1 couldn’t do that.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:20 am
I think something was lost in translation. The American designer said to make the design ambitious but the translator heard, “Make the design amphibious”
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:21 am
LOL. Can’t have enough Neil’s or Neal’s in this world!
It depends on the price. I’m keeping an eye on it to see what happens.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Re: Preorders:
Hello GM. Is anybody listening? The train is leaving the station.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Agreed. Depends on what Nissan offers.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:29 am
The release of 10,000 Volt and 10,000 C-Zap matches Nissan’s roll out number. Base the truck on the Volt platform and at least get a Cruze type out by years end.
I have heard the “it’s not a skateboard” rebuttal a few times. You know what I am saying. Use the interior engineering and transplant into a similar size truck. Better yet, use 1/2 the parts from the Volt production line to do it.
Well America, which showroom will you enter in 2010? The one with a single Leaf car. Or GM with the choice of two extended range electric vehicles?
Yes we can? I know we can.
=D~
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Note to GM marketing spin doctors:
If/when you actually decide to sell a BEV in the U.S., here’s how you handle the EV1 baggage. Just tell everybody that range anxiety has only recently become manageable because of the proliferation of GPS or smart phones . . . .something that wasn’t readily available back in the EV1 days.
– Of course, this statement isn’t exactly true, … but it’s true enough for a sufficient backpedal.
– And there’s the old standby “battery technology/ battery price” as well.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:31 am
To me the only thing that is relevant is to stop importing Oil and invest that money in our own economy.
Better fuel mileage only reduces demand for oil and puts off the peak Oil crisis. Putting off and avoiding is the difference between a politician and a sane person.
I want affordable EREV/BEVs (when adjusted for cost of fuel) and charging infrastructure at the work place (so you can charge at home and at work).
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Tom,
Even if you are right, though I somewhat doubt it, there can’t be much margin in the Gen 1 car. (You have to include labour and marketing costs in the profitability calculation.)
The cost reduced Gen 2 will see the production ’spool up’.
I will not buy a BEV, and will likely end up buying a small diesel in the interm while waiting for ‘my’ EREV.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:33 am
From the latest Lutz interview I got the impression that GM will NOT lose money on the Volt at $40k, and why should they?.. the demand and supply will ensure they sell every last one.
In any case Old GM paid for the development of the Volt.. New GM just gets the benefits
The bitter pill for GM to swallow is that at their peak they were making a profit of $15k per SUV sold, and that is impossible to do with any small or compact car.. Toyota recently revealed that they make a profit of $3k per Prius and the whole industry was impressed they could manage that.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:37 am
I understand and I don’t understand GM’s strategy for the Volt. I know part of the reason for the low production numbers is the unknown with the battery. But with all the testing GM is doing now and with the pre-production fleet of 500 or more they expect to release, just when are they going to be confident about the Volt? In 2010, 2011, 2012 or never? Sure, there will probably be some problems with the battery. So what! Get over it GM and get the job done. I know they are going to lose money (at least they claim they will) for the first few years, but I am not so sure that is true. If they are burying the cost of a second battery in the cost of the Volt, then they are making a profit with the very first Volt sold. Not counting all the research and development cost. They will recover that over time. No auto company (or any other company) recovers all the cost in the first year, but they do expect to make a profit on the first sale. I think GM is missing something here with the approach Nissan is going. But GM has missed the boat so many times in the past why should we think it would be any different? IMO.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:38 am
N Riley & Luke:
I finally did get around to replying to you questions about the S-10 at #3 on yesterday’s thread. I had some computer problems the last thing, and couldn’t get it posted yesterday. Sorry.
Short version:
It is a 4 cyl stick, and it gets 25 mpg every tank, about 1/2 city and 1/2 highway. This after 231K miles.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:39 am
I’m pretty sure they’re talking about marginal cost…As in, each additional one off the line will cost them more than they get from the dealers.
Otherwise, they wouldn’t have limited first year production to 10,000.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:40 am
“From the latest Lutz interview….”
__________
What I remember is that he acknowledged they WERE losing money on a $40,000 volt — just not “thousands” … which could be interperted as any amount from $999 up to $9,999.
/regardless of whose numbers you believe, there’s a lot of stuff in that volt. Lots and lots more “stuff” than a BEV.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:41 am
ICAM on the gas tax.. Although I would use at least part of the tax money to pay down the deficit, and to reduce the impact on the working poor through lower payroll taxes.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:42 am
I have. And I think the Leaf is just as ugly as the Aztec. Maybe even uglier–it’s a close call.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:49 am
“At least the Leaf does look like a practical second car….”
____________
The Leaf will be a primary car. It will be the tool that you reach for 9 times out of 10. The secondary SUV will just sit on the curb until you finally have a long trip to Grandma’s, or want to pull the boat out.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Lol. Thanks. Although I think that men tend to pay more attention to cars than women do. Or at least this woman. So, I’m hardly the final authority.
I think Nissan is going for the so ugly it’s cool theme. It may even work.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Exactly. These type of “want lists” usually convert into under 2% of actual customers when its time to put up the money.
Taking actual pre orders seems to be the way to go. Tesla immediately started taking pre-orders on its Model S and has raised a significant amount of captial, now Nissan is following suit.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Over $5? Try (counting currency exchange factors) over $8/gallon.
Nevertheless, I think the proposition of keeping the battery separate from the car makes sense for that and other reasons, especially as it opens the door to multiple sources for that battery.
I doubt if I’ll ever lease a battery from an automaker, however, for the same reason that I wouldn’t lease an automobile from a battery manufacturer.
Sincerely,
Dr. Ibringdoh
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:51 am
With gas at $2.20/gal, I prefer to drive my truck vs my car (16MPG vs 27MPG). When gas was $4, I drove the car and did more telecommuting. I suspect that others are doing the same.
Conclusion: Electric vehicles will not become mainstream until gas is over $5. We need intervention (yes, like the oil addicts we are) by the government to raise taxes on oil. Especially gasoline.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Dan,
GM could use the colors for the new Buick LaCrosse as a starting point for the Volt. I am sure those colors are nice, vivid colors that would go well with the Volt.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:07 am
The car looks ok, but a little effeminate. It’s definately got enough going on to make you notice. Nissan does a pretty good job with standing out. The Leaf’s styling will probably be more appealing to the fairer sex, but I’m “comfortable enough” to deal with it.
(the real beauty is underneath the skin, anyway)
Nissan electric car under the hood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrNmplhx7ag&annotation_id=annotation_982657&feature=iv
Nissan unveils all-electric Leaf car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48×9baSuF0
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:08 am
I can not imagine it taking that kind of money to “study” this. Of course, any company dealing with the federal government expects to reap big rewards in grants and such. This is just one example of government being so stupid and not caring about the taxpayers. Some bureaucrat would be quick to say that when you are dealing with trillion dollar budgets a few 99 million here and 99 million there is not any “real” money at all. Not unless you are without a job and can’t pay your bills.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Perhaps the Leaf can actually swim. With recent floods that would come in handy.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:11 am
_____________________________________________________
Lyle asks:
“Will this announcement lead GM to shift strategy?”
————
Answer:
If GM allowed Volt pre-orders, the Volt would be immediately oversubscribed through 2012+.
GM does not want to officially inform those early adopters that would be willing to purchase a GEN#1 Volt that they won’t be able to get their hands on a Volt. GM does not want those early adopters to loose interest in following the Voltec program. Most of the early adopter Voltec heads on this site will end up being forced to find a Volt substitute for their BEV/EREV purchase. Early adopters are crazy in that way…they want it NOW!
______________________________________________________
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:13 am
100 miles is a decent amount of range. I would have no range anxiety about daily use with that much range. I would not use the car for longer trips; we would (and do) use the wife’s (larger) car for that purpose. If it was priced right, I would buy a car like this.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:15 am
What will actually lose sales is having very few Volts in the market. Laura M got it exactly right on pre orders with such a low volume introduction by comparing the Volt to the Camaro pre sale process.
Producing more Volts before production costs are lowered would appear to lead to larger scale losses during the development process leading to Gen II and III Volts.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:22 am
I disagree with your point because you frame the issue in terms of daily use. If 40 miles of EV on the Volt covers 80% of American drivers, I would think that Leaf’s 100 mile range would cover 95% of us for commuting and after work errands. The range issue for most drivers is on the weekends, for those long trips. If you’ve got a family, you have a second, usually larger car, that you take on the weekends. The Volt will cover single/empty-nesters/dinks better than the Leaf for weekend use, at least until rapid-charging stations are widely available. If rapid-charging stations actually become common, or some other solution to the charging problem comes into being, the E-REV concept is toast.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Anybody remember the AMC Pacer? Not a big seller there… however, it’s not always about the looks, but about the technology inside. Even the prius is not a great looking car, but the technology it provides overshadows it’s design flaws.
For the maintenance, fuel cost savings it may very well sell as the less expensive alternative to the volt for many people. It will depend on all the other alternatives that come out about the same time. If someone beats them with a sportier vehicle with similar technology and price? Then it’s game on!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Hey tom, good luck with your move to Europe. Hope you really enjoy the $5.00 to $8.00 gas prices over there.
I’ll stay here and enjoy the lower gas prices, and vote against any Dem or GOP that votes to tax gas. Gas taxes hurt the poor the most – but no one on this site seems to care about the poor – just their precious Volt. They would gladly starve the children of poor single mothers, just to speed up getting their almighty Volt. And forget tax rebates – poor people cannot afford pay upfront, then wait until April 15 to get a refund. Rich people can.
Tell me how you get only the top 5% to pay the higher gas prices at the pump. Until you do, the lot of you are a bunch of f*cking tax-tards, IMHO. (How do they sleep at night, starving poor children with higher gas taxes? Unbelieveable.)
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:27 am
All the Japanese auto manufacturers are / were “government motors” car companies – just funded by the Japanese government for much of their early (and recent loan) histories rather than the US taxpayers. And now they have also benefited from our “cash for clunkers” and electric vehicle tooling investments.
So to the folks who refuse to consider GM or Chrysler vehicles simply because of recent U.S. taxpayer / government support, where is the logic in that position?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:29 am
$3.13 at the CHEVRON station at the auto center. Ironically, the most expensive gas station in the city. And they call car salesmen crooks!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Conversation in Nissan’s boardroom
1st exec: “Somebody calling himself “nasaman” on a GM forum is saying the Leaf is too ugly and will never sell in the states.
2nd exec: We must stop all assembly plans immediately and completely redesign the car.
3rd exec: Wait, don’t they keep bashing the looks of the Prius on that site as well.
1st exec: Yes, yes they do.
3rd exec: Is Toyota having any problems selling Prius’s in the US?
1st exec: No, they sell them as fast as they can make them.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:35 am
GM — caught flat-footed (?)
Virtually every other major auto manufacturer at least has a BEV “on deck”, if not planned for production.
Consider Nissan’s potential for mass sales if they can bring the Leaf out for under $20,000 with a $150/mo lease on the batteries AND we see another gas spike to $4.00/g.
Consider GM’s potential.. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRlwZRcxfpM
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:40 am
It may be possible for single consumers but not for a relevant percentage of consumers. It is simply not possible to replace oil in just a few years if GM wants to produce 10000 Volts in 2011. Just in the US there are 250 million cars.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:42 am
If building the Volt is a moon shot for GM, perhaps then, building the 1st Gen Volt in huge numbers would be a voyage to mars, with no clear cut business model to support the expense.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:51 am
What would happen if the home builders spent the $200 to prewire homes for electric cars and solar power instead of homeowners having to pay $1100 to to retrofit and prep for car outlets and $12,000 to retrofit and prep for solar power?
$200 up front to cut the cost of retrofits by 30 to 50%, that doesn’t seem like a bad deal.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:55 am
I forgot to mention GM’s own electric car via the partnership with Reva. (from the post here a few days ago)
“GM’s goal is to gear up commercial production over the next 12 months, and to roll out the all electric Chevy Spark in India in late 2010, about the same time as the Volt debuts in North America.”
So they are pretty much on par w/the Leaf, but they need to bring this car to the US if the BEV’s end up being a success here.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Nissan needs to swap the Leaf with the Renault Fluence ZE, its sister company’s electric car. They wouldn’t be able to make enough of them. JMO.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
I filled up this morning for $2.079 / US gallon.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
GM’s timetable, particularly the 230 mpg PR flub, looks more and more less competitive. Not just in light of Nissan’s striking production announcement today, but just look at the the string of withering competition posted here. I realize Nissan must demonstrate a positive spin given its jillions of US buckeroos we just handed over. Now there’s absolutely nothing wrong in this era for GM to one-up its competition. Take one of these VOLTS and turn it into a EV beast. Yesterday we read about a coast-to-coast drive on 26 galoons. Stack four-five battery packs — use the Fisker ER ECI — do a coast-to-coast – anything just don’t sit on your duffs holding up this really anemic schedule. The time of when GM could ignore its competition as pests on the loose is over.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I agree with your compassion but not your economics. So everyone in socialist europe is a bunch of f*cking tax-tards,? By not taxing gas we are SUBSIDIZING it because we aren’t pay the true cost to society or our economy (our dollars going bye bye overseas.)
As LauraM stated above, the tax could go to lower the Payroll tax(FICA) to help the working person. That is probably a better idea then going towards tax credits for cars. This is the true free market approach which will yield the best results (transition to EVs).
Just like the gas tax has always been the perfect tax. It pays for roads. So the more you drive and the bigger your car the more you contribute to the road maintenance. But gasoline and imported oil has the HUGE societal costs that are not taxed as they should be (taking money out of our economy, keeping the persion gulf shipping lanes open etc.). That tax needs to be put on gasoline. What the gas tax is usef for is up to the politicians (towards lowering fica tax to help the working stiff, just lowering taxes in general whatever, I still like to subsidize affordiable BEV mobility).
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Yes. I think that is right. Then again, Nissan can afford to jump right in.
GM can’t. They must overcome the very negative feelings the American public has about GM cars specifically, American cars in general.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Camaro took in just under 15,000 ‘R6P’ orders, which are the truest sense of ‘preorders’ from customers. A R6P is basically any order placed before March 15th, 2009, when the car went into production.
Sidenote: You can recognize these cars because GM labels them ‘Early Order Activity’ on the window sticker. (If someday you happen to place a pre-order on a Volt)
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
unless you rad the article where it says he had no brakes because of it, and it “burst into flames” of course that was while driving off a cliff…..but..
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
“Good grief! Imagine if they used that money to produce some vehicles.”
They got a 1.6 billion dollar loan to do just that…imagine! The cars, at development costs of a few billion more Japanes Yen beforehand, will be produced initially in Japan though.
The “$99 million DOE-funded study with infrastructure partner eTec.” will be used to make the most cost effective choices in providing what appears to be billions of dollars in infrastructure that may ultimately be rolled out nation wide.
From a comment by STATIK
“NISSAN:
—gets 1.6 billion to “update the Smyrna, TN factory to build up to 150,000 battery electric vehicles and 200,000 lithium ion battery packs annually”
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/06/23/officially-official-nissan-gets-1-6b-doe-loan-to-build-evs-b/ ”
Imagine that too. (Actually to match snarky with snarky), you don’t have to imagine it, you can read it…And I agree, we are living in a land of lunatics – full of people who believe that making changes that will cost trillions of dollars should just be done in a leap of faith with nothing spent in planning for anything. Planning that could be used to save billions of dollars and avoid dumb failures.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
I’ll second that!!!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
The Leaf does not compete directly with Volt. They are totally different classes of cars. GM is doing the right thing ‘dragging their feet’ as some have said. I don’t believe for a second that GM is moving too slowly and here’s why.
The longer they can hold off, the better the Volt chances for success. They will have better batteries, gas will go up, and other things will happen to make it easier to come to market. Heck, even if Leaf sells like hotcakes, this is a GOOD thing for all other electric drives.
In other news….
http://business.theatlantic.com/2009/09/gm_gives_up_on_ebay.php
Ya can’t buy your Volt on eBay now. GM severed the relationship.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Ugliest car ever? I don’t know the name but it is the Honda small suv with fenders that don’t match the rest of the veh. Looks like it was made from spare parts.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
IT’S THE CATFISH CAR!
I’m almost positive there are at least 20,000 commuters in the continental US and Canad that travels less than 60 miles round trip that would be interested in this BEV. Personally, in the BEV’s, I like the Jellybean car (iMiev) but first one to market and affordable for me get’s my few $$$. Gonna have to turn in my aluminum beer cans and plastic bottles and trade in my hooptie but, first one wins.
I am on the Leaf’s list, somewhere between 1k and 2k (can’t remember) and if it actually IS as affordable as they claim, then i’ll have to reel in that catfish and take it home then plugitin.
My commute is 9.5 miles one way with plugs in our parking lot and plugs at home. No family member lives further than 30 miles one way from me here in CA. 75 real miles will more than suffice.
Little do they know, I WILL find a way to tap that batt pack.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
#4 aluminum wiring might be cheaper..
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
I really hope that is not how it goes. There are going to be bugs in the hardware / software interface. It is too complex a system, and there will be too many different driving styles and conditions for GM to have tested everything. GM needs people like us on this site that will not slam the car, but work with them to get it right.
Hope springs eternal!!!!!
I guess that makes me the offset optomist to bring balance to the universe from your pessimism.
As far as your percentages, I am thinking maybe 1% for the 2010/2011 year, but I sure hope that by 2012, I can see one at a dealer close to me somewhere!!!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
It ran in California, without the best mileage in Canada claims though!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Good idea, but politicians are never going to lower any tax, so if a gas tax is enacted, it will just be on top of every other tax in place. They will just use the old “it iwill help to lower the deficit” line, but then they will not be able to stop themselves, and will just keep spending us into bankruptcy…………….
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
That’s a great piece of information, which you always seem to have. So unless Nissan expects the demand for the Leaf to be 100X times greater than the demand for the Camaro, then he’s probably talking about the nationawide rollout not the test. Given that the Leaf is a new category of car you could imagine it being very much in demand, so 20K would not be beyond reason.
Or he’s talking about the limited number of test cities and he’s delusional. LOL
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
GM alrady announced they will be taking orders via ebay before the units are produced. Isn’t that about the same? Its just a matter of how long the auction will be open…
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
EXACTLY!
That’s at least my Plan. Our big car for long expensive Disneyland trips are parked and we bought a cover for it because it is not used during the week and birds sh|t all over it. Our other commuter cars are what we take 5 days of the week and neither of us drive longer than 15 miles one way as well as grocery go getters. The wife unit drives to downtown about 15 miles one way. So a BEV for either of us will work fine. Unfortunately the inlaws are all in range of the BEV. Oh well.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Honda Element is what you are thinking of….I know because I married a girl who drove one, which meant of course, that I had to drive it as well…until I talked her into a Saturn Vue….took about a year but I was successful.
Ironically the Element drove very nicely and when you are inside it you dont have to look at it …. so its actually a pretty nice vehicle….’til you get out of it
This coming from someone who is extremely shallow and superficial…still getting over the Volt re-design (almost there)
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
If you’re an empty nester and don’t go far from home, why wouldn’t a BEV work? If you do travel way far like Vegas or Reno or Lake Tahoe or wherever, what’s the difference if you drive an ICE car that gets 45MPG+ (VW TDi, BMW or whatever, Prius/Fusion) for 700+ miles than an EREV? The fuel savings is marginal. Of course that’s assuming EREV is 50MPG in CS mode.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Personally I want to know what the driving experience is like — the proverbial “butt in seat” experience. I’m not that concerned with what it looks like. After a month I don’t even notice what my car looks like, but I do experience how it drives every time I get in, even if the car is 15 years old. If the EV-1 is an example, then all the EVs should be quick and fun. Plus you’ll smile whenever anyone says they’ll need to get gas!
As for standing out, if you want that, just add some big decals of that kid peeing on the OPEC logo. That should do it.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Streetlight, I disagree pretty much with the entire post:
- The 230mpg thing was not a flub. They got so much free press it’s unbelievable.
- The timetable has not changed. It’s even early considering that they are delivering 500 pre-launch. GM could have chosen to develop the Volt under wraps. They chose to show us the story as it unfolds. This is what causes some to think they are dragging their feet. We have never seen this open dialog before from a car company.
- There is not a single production (or even planned) vehicle that competes directly with Volt. It is unique. And you can’t count a couple of hand-built expensive one-offs in California as ‘production’. Technically, Volt competes in the $40k car range, but, none of these have electric drive or can drive completely without gas for most people.
- It is way too early to pull any stunts like cross-country drive. Besides, you don’t need a stack of batteries. That is the point of the Volt. You can drive just like any other normal car cross-country or otherwise.
-GM is not ignoring the competition. Quite the contrary. There are many-many-many commercials about directly competing model-for-model with other car makers.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
“The Leaf does not compete directly with Volt. They are totally different classes of cars. “
You are completely correct!
A BEV is a tool for a specific purpose. It’s not the all in one like the Volt.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Even if 100% of cars were 100% electric we’d still have to import oil. And what most people don’t understand is 90,000 container ships burn lower quality OIL and make more sulphites and CO2 in one year then in the history of all cars in the world.
No I understand the a few thousand VOLTS don’t matter. What matters is the pace and commitment of change.
We do need to move all personal mobility off of oil. We could certainly in less than 5 years require all NEW personal cars to not use OIL. We could do that by requiring BEVs and EREVs (the ER part would need to be other than OIL). Then we would be well on the way.
The government has a duty to our society to mandate this change based on national security and economic viablity. This isn’t a matter of personal freedoms.
We also need to reduce oil consumption in home heating, manufacturing, fertilizers and commercial trucking. Once we do all of that we’ll still probably be importing OIL, but we’d be on the road to getting off of it and more importantly we’d be investing in our economies instead of Iran’s and Saudi Arabia and Venezuela etc.
But I expect this won’t happen and the next oil shock will send us into a worse recession that we won’t have the resources to Stimulate ourselves out of. Our country is in big trouble.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
This happened where I live so it was big news. They didn’t go off a cliff, the car turned over coming off the ramp from the freeway. The breaks were flaming because the driver, who was a state trooper BTW, was stomping on the brakes. It was a horrible situation with the wife on a 911 call. The fact the driver was a trained officer may have actually hurt his ability to resolve the problem because he was trained not to shift the car into neutral. (Or he may not have been able to do that).
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Neal,
I think much of the money is getting more chargers installed. Not much to study or write about without any chargers in place.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
To your point: The most popular car where I live is ….. the Prius. Not exactly a “looker”. As for ugliest vehicle on the road, I think the FJ Cruiser gets my vote, but, as you mention, I see them around — and I definitely notice them!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
I understand and I don’t understand GM’s strategy for the Volt.
It’s just a cost issue. GM can’t get the cost down enough to make Gen I a volume seller, so the plan is to have a limited run at a higher price and wait until they can optimize the car to get a lower price in Gen II.
Nissan is taking a different route. It has some cost advantages since it doesn’t need the ICE, it has fewer battery warranty issues with a BEV, and it seems to think it can address the battery issues with financing. Definitely a more aggressive approach.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Do you think that Nissan made the front of the Leaf to look like a face on purpose?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Good thread today… not to switch gears, but Bob Kruse, GM’s Executive Director of Vehicle Engineering for Hybrids, Electric Vehicles and Batteries, just announced his resignation to become an outside auto consultant. GM says this should not impact the VOLT launch, but it is strange timing…. unless he figures he can gain more outside the company.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090930/ANA02/909309985/1261
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Oh, I don’t know Laura. You are probably too young to remember, but AMC tried the same thing with the Pacer. It didn’t work out well.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Well my first statement was mainly a description of the current situation. And if there are not enough electric vehicles available, which will be the case for the next years (if we want it or not as there won’t be such an energy policy you described), more fuel-efficient conventional vehicles could save more oil for the next years coming.
Apart from governmental energy policy, I’m not too sure if it is possible to ramp up production so fast that millions of electric vehicles can be sold in 5 or even 10 years. Therefore, fuel-efficient conventional vehicles are necessary a first step in my opinion.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Isn’t your gas going down?
Here in CT (very high gas tax) we’re at $2.49/gal. today…$0.10 less that a week or two ago.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Puzzling how they have chosen all west-coast cities, where there are still vast expanses of space surrounding each of these cities. I would think east-coast cities would have more dense population centers and be better markets for a 100 mile range EV.
Also have to agree that there may be some resistance to the looks from those style-conscious urban dwellers. In the end, the more EV’s that come out the better for overall market acceptance – and the more I believe GM’s strategy with the EREV VOLTec technology will win out in real-world competition.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
What is your point?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Actually, the current gas tax doesn’t even pay for the road upkeep. Maintenance costs have gone up, and no one’s willing to raise the gas tax to keep with it. So the roads are being subsidized by the general tax fund. And, they’re still not getting enough money, which is why they’re generally in such bad shape.
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/raise-gas-tax-then-move-to-mileage-tax-federal-commission-says/
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Herm,
But notice in the chart that aluminum has less ampacity than copper. You would have to use the heavier 3 gauge. But you’re right, that’s probably still less $$$ than 4 gauge copper.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
I saw it here in CA. I’m skeptical on some of these types of comparison’s. What models/trims are they comparing? I just looked them up and the Camry best MPG model gets 33MPG and the Best MPG model Malibu gets 33 as well. If MPG is the comparison then use the best model/trim that gets the highest MPG and compare it to the same type of model for another. Don’t compare your high MPG model/trim with the competitions non high mpg model/trim. To me that’s decietfull. The ones I just compared are about 1mpg diff and the Rav4 and Equinox was 4MPG diff. At that point it’s the price one would look at and Toyota beats GM in the small cars but the large pickup GM win’s.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
I think the Prius looks fine. If I wasn’t trying to support GM and Ford, and I needed a car right now, I’d probably get one. The Leaf is a completely different story.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
That doesn’t mean it won’t work now. Look at UGG boots. They’re a major hit. And this is a BEV, so the distinctive appearance might appeal to the “greener than thou” crowd. You never know.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
I wondered the same thing when the Dodge Neon came out. Remember the freeway billboards with a a pic of the front of the car and it said “HI”.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Of course tomorrow it will probably up $0.10…oil is trading up by $4 today.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
But at least they got their money from their own government. Nissan is a Japanese company that got funding from the US government. It’s ridiculous, IMHO.
Basically, we’re paying them to come here, enter our market, compete with our manufacturers (two of which the government currently owns), and move our manufacturing base and job overseas.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Are these strategies really so different? It seems to me that both companies plan to initially sell in limited volumes and to ramp up to larger volumes soon thereafter. With respect to how they will be made available and whether they will take pre-orders, I didn’t think GM has decided anything yet. Am I wrong?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Have you seen the new Audi commercial?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk7fSIDPZOg
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Isn’t that what GM is doing with the REVA joint venture?
Same thing if you ask me. mfgrng jpbs sent overseas. GM will be building cars there. AND maybe building parts there to send back here for assembly into other stuff.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Sh\t man, we’re at $2.99/gal here in central CA.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
He was being asked if GM was willing to lose money on the Volt, after being prodded a few times he reluctantly admitted “not thousands”, so a maximum of $1,999 or no loss at all.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
He figures he can gain more outside the company. He will also be entitled to his GM retirement.
Government workers have their salaries capped and the public is clamoring for employees at bailed out companies to be capped. GM has rolled back compensation for exec. and white collar workers.
He will then be the principal (CEO?) of his own consulting firm to help companies get in on billions of expected green tech money for the auto industry. Painful for GM but seems like a good move for him.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
LOL your right it is the Element! It is so ugly I don’t even park next to one, because I’m afraid some ugly will rub of on my car.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Ugly is a matter of taste. This car looks like the Versa in some way and they do sell those in America, don’t they ?
They sell Smarts in the US as well. Not the most beautiful car. Essentially for commutes since it’s a 2 seaters. Still, they sell > 50 000 a year and they can’t meet demand so…
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
You people on the left coast must make a lot more money to live…between your gas and housing, I don’t know how you do it. I understand that the sun never stops shining and girls are always beautiful, but still.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Almost everyone will go on a trip that exceeds the range of their BEV sooner or later. For some, this will be no big deal. For many people, if they have only one car, their fear of that occasional trip will keep them from buying a BEV. My bet is that this describes the majority of people. I think that this will not change until either: (a) there are enough rapid-charging stations that it is viewed as being no different than stopping to fill up with gas; OR (b) when the economic advantages of a BEV so outweigh a ICE that people are willing to put up with the occasional inconvenience planning a trip taht exceeds the range of their BEV. To be clear the BEV will WORK, but it will will be viewed less favorably than an EREV.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
I second the call about the BEV vs. range-extender issue coming down to price. If the BEV is cheaper, I can keep my existing well-worn car and park it on the street and use that for road-trips. If the ER-EV is reasonably priced, then I can stop paying insurance and taxes on my old car — and have one machine that does everything.
But I can’t make that decision until I see the real selling-prices for all of these vehicles. Thankfully, my day-to-day needs are modest, so I have a lot of options.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
The Element is my “Flying Toaster”.
It’s the main reason why I might be able to get a Gen1 Volt if I have the opportunity.
Reason,
Here in Austin, it holds its value better than just about anything, and, it is in great demand here when they come up for resale. (About $1,200 more value here).
Plus, while I call it my “Flying Toaster”, the AC inside is about 2 tons and cools me down quickly from when I worked in a 105 degree service bay for 4 hours teaching.
Great little CUV.
But I do want a Volt.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
I’ve lived on the east coast and the midwest. In the semi-rural midwest, we have small towns (by east-coast standards) surrounded by miles and miles of corn.
So, typically, a trip is either across-town — or over an hour’s drive. Since I work in the same town as I live, I can go weeks without leaving town. All of the best shopping for 50 miles around are located within 10 miles of my house — unless I redefine “shopping” as “help a local farmer harvest feedcorn or soybeans”…
The denser population on the east coast is spread out much more uniformly than it is here, so when I lived there, it was common to drive 45 minutes to get to the right friend’s house, and then another 30 minutes to get to the right movie theater.
So, for me, the electric car will work much better in this island in the corn than it would have ever worked anywhere that I lived on the east coast. And I feel less isolated here than I did on the east coast, because I actually know my neighbors.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
From what I understand, REVAs built in India are meant for the Indian market? And I don’t believe they’re getting any support from the Indian government?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
You forgot C) Purchase a trailerd range extender for their BEV.
I see there being a massive market for this in the future. Current ones are big because of cost. My plans are for a small footprint attached to a trailler hitch but not trailered per se..
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Shell is $2.29 here in Austin. (And, $2.24 at some of the cheap no-names, which I’d never use.).
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Aluminum is terrible to use, since it is such a brittle metal (non-maleable), it more easily becomes loose within the circuit breakers. I had one of two 50 amp breakers burn out for my house HVAC because the 4 gauge conductor had become overheated when there was no longer any contact tension within the breaker set screw.
For all the problems we have heard of in the past regarding aluminum wiring, it is my understanding that builders can still use it. Not a good thing to use to attempt to save money on cabling IMO.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
The 230mpg thing was not a flub. They got so much free press it’s unbelievable
Agreed..for marketing, there was no bad press..was it good? who cares, will it hurt a product launch over 12 months away? probably not..di it garner a lot of attention and media…
ABSOLUTELY…
HQ, target has been acquired, and mission successful
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think 5 years is plenty of time to change over to the current 50 or so EREVs and BEVs already in the pipeline.
http://www.electricdrive.org/index.php?ht=d/sp/i/11551/pid/11551
They need to design a few pickups and SUV’s but there are enough designs already on the table for the majority of folks. They just need 5 more years to cut the price of the batteries in half and it could be done.
Politicians just don’t have the vision and the ability to share the vision with the people.
American’s don’t like the health care changes being discussed now because they know from experience this means less quality for more money. That is hard to sell.
I think it isn’t that hard to sell the idea of switching from an OIL economy to an electric economy that will create millions of jobs for Americans by taking that oil money and investing it in Nuclear, Wind, Geothermal and hyroelectric power plants, EV Battery and Car plants.
We could do it so we are better prepared when the next Oil shock comes. And we all know it will, and we all know we can’t afford trillions in more stimulus to get ouf of the next recession.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Hi Leo..called that at 8:30 this morn (post 16) along with the Mighty T recall..
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
I agree Loboc. There are millions of responsible people out there who do limited or local driving. They know the limitations of a BEV and will never feel range anxiety. I personally believe that the so-called ‘range anxiety’ issue has become an anti-BEV propaganda campaign.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
They fixed those problems years ago, they just crimp in a piece of copper cable at the end of the aluminum wires.. works well. #4 copper is not cheap.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
I think it is very prudent, keep the numbers of Volts manageable in case there is trouble.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
income here has dropped in the local/state govt. We have the highest unemployment. Go figure…..
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
That sounds right, but the Spark will be built there as well and here. Why not build the spark here and send them to India?
One person said they had to build them (The SparK) there to sell them there. So why even joint venture?
Seems a little fishy.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I think exactly the same thing every time I see it. “Catfish”.
I think the mistranslation was much simpler. They probably just said to make it “coy” and it came out “koi”.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
The point is that style is an individual preference and one person (or 3 people) can’t speak for everybody. There are many cars out there that I don’t like the look of and that I wouldn’t buy, but plenty of other people do. And I don’t have a problem with people saying they do or do not like a particular style of vehicle, but when you get some ego-centric poster posting things like nasaman in post #2 “Carlos Taveres: My apologies, but you can’t FORCE the LEAF on customers as it’s styled now!” then somebody should try to help him put his ego a little more in perspective.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Have the cost of the battery lease depend on the number of miles that you drive the car. The more you drive, the cheaper per mile but the greater the total. See http://www.betterplace.com for information on the infrastructure and the battery swapping that will reduce range anxiety.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Off Topic…
GM to shut down Saturn after Penske walks away
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/6645333.html
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
As Laura pointed out earlier. A relatively short delivery wait after pre-ordering a new model is acceptable. Perhaps 6 to 8 weeks? The Leaf is easier to build than the Volt. And should sell faster than K cars after a Lee Iacocca speech.
“The greatest discovery of my generation is that human beings can alter their lives by altering their attitudes of mind.”
Lee Iacocca
“We are continually faced by great opportunities brilliantly disguised as insoluble problems.”
Lee Iacocca
______________________________
BTW:Latest news… September 30, 2009, 4:49 pm EDT
Penske drop bid for Saturn
=D~
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
or rent one from Uhaul.. but the connections at the BEV have to be designed properly, you plug anything into the Volt and the car will refuse to move.. also the plug needs to be at the back of the car.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
The 230 mpg campaign produced tons of free ink – the problem: GM PR duffed the explanation. Equal amounts of controversy. But even there – who on Earth could duplicate the feat. OK. You certainly are right about GM’s [somewhat] open beta VOLT policy. On one hand – very nice – on the other, means to persuade Congress. Insofar as doing a coast-to-coast display – GM needs to regain its credibility. Hardly, was the 26 galoon coast-to-coast report yesterday a stunt. It strongly demonstrated the feasibility of its bio power. The VOLT production schedule is rightfully deliberate. That doesn’t mean GM forego forging a competitive lead and making decisions. There must be a killer range option… 500+ miles … whatever. GM must take a proactive posture – in less than a couple months the Leaf’s become a cult thing. Leaf this … and Leaf that … everyday!
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
So many people have mentioned that the Leaf looks like a catfish, so I had to look at the photo again. OMG – IT DOES !!! If Nissan had to make it look like a fish, why didn’t they choose a shark rather than a homely bottom-feeder?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Here too…
http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1035970_breaking-rip-saturn-penske-walks-away-after-failing-to-find-cars
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
lol….
Herm,i’d like you to meet my friend “Jerry Rig”.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
A little history for perspective?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_N360
http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2009/09/tokyo-preview-honda-ev-n-concept.html
Tick, tock, Detroit 3 ….
The mouse that roared is here again.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
I plan to buy in second half of 2012 (partly because I think the prices will fall some by then and I don’t want to be like the folks that bought the IPhone the first day it came out, and I buy a car every 3 years alternating for me and my wife, she just bought a SUV 2 months ago so I have to wait my turn) and yes I’ll buy what ever makes the most sense as long as I am off of oil. The volt works for me because I’ll charge twice a day, but the Leaf might work also.
I may have to buy a pure BEV because Volts may not be available in North East Ohio by then. Also I seem to be the rare one on this board that likes the idea of leasing the battery as long as the lease is less than $130 month. I figure I can drive easily 18000 or more miles AER (charging at work etc.) and save 50 gallons of gas a month. I like the idea of the monthly lease charge and comparing that to how many miles I drive and the cost of gas.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
If Nissan or anyone can sell a 5 seater “for under $20,000 with a $150/mo lease on the batteries” then by 2012 and the outlook for gas at that time, this car or car could control over 75% of the US passenger car market.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Because Texans prefer Whisker Kittys, especially ones like the Leaf that have maximum torque from 0 rpm and instant, strong, smooth acceleration available at all times? Just a WAG.
http://www.whiskerkitty.com/texas_catfish_resource.htm
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Actually even though J1772 supports up to 70amps, the Leaf home charger will be using the 240V 40 amp that is common to dryer outlets. This will allow the car to charge in less than 8 hrs. So 8 gauge would be enough. Basically it is just like installing for a dryer outlet.
The 70 amps will likely only be for outside and quicker charging. Tesla offers something similar but it requires an extra box that costs more. 70 amps would be enough to charge the Leaf in under 3 hours. I don’t think a home charger needs to be that fast.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
India still has high tariffs on automobiles. So if you want to sell them there, you generally build them there. (That’s kind of the point of the tariff.)
As as REVA, it’s a joint venture between an Indian company (Maini group?) and California based AEV. And they’ve been building EVs for a couple years in India. And they’re actually getting federal money to build a plant in New York (of all places). So maybe they have technology that GM wants?
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/09/automaker_from_india_consideri.html
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
CDAVIS:
If that does turn out to be the strategy, then fine. I can wait. It just gives me an excuse to drive the old Impala a few thousand more miles and not spend a bunch of money. How that benefits GM I dunno, but it works for me.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Ummm… you might want to revisit that. In 2009, Smart Cars are selling more like 30,000 a year and essentially no waiting. Troubled Economic Conditions + Market Sat. both are playing roles.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
You folks do realize that $1m is about what it costs to fund 10 white-collar workers (with salaries of 50k-ish, plus benefits and overhead) for one year?
I’d like to see the breakdown, but when you’re talking about labor costs, equipment, business travel, and so forth over several years, it’s pretty easy to get to $99 million without doing anything outrageous.
A million dollars must have been a lot of money years ago. But my previous university’s subsidy from the federal government was on the order of $1 billion/year — and was didn’t count tuition and grant-money, or state funding which are big parts of the budget. I mean, a million dollars will only buy part of an office building, or a few private houses. A million dollars worth of computer equipment might not even fill a semi-trailer — that’s only about 1000 moderately priced laptops.
It’s not that a million dollars or $99 million dollars shouldn’t be managed carefully and responsibly — but if you compare that to a multi-trillion dollar federal budget, it’s not really worth having a holy-war over. We have real wars that are costing us over a billion dollars a day, and people like guys I went to college with were sent there on false pretenses, and are being killed every day…….. That is a much bigger deal than a few million dollars here or there.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
My first thought is GM will get “Validation” on battery knowledge where it’s “OK” to cycle to 70% DOD…..lol.
Also GM may learn from REVA how to make a profit on small cars..
Thanks for the link.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
On ABG…
Mitsubishi is previewing its next-generation CUV in the Land of the Rising Sun next month, and like nearly every other concept bound for the Tokyo Motor Show, the Mitsubishi PX-MiEV is packing a number of hybrid technologies to maximize fuel efficiency, decrease emissions and keep performance on par. Plus, the PX-MiEV comes with an added helping of “cocochi” – Japanese for “cozy.”
PX is Mitsubishi shorthand for “plug-in hybrid crossover,” so a 1.6-liter inline-four powers the front wheels, along with a generator, and a new plug-in system allows users to tap into the grid with either a 100 or 200-volt outlet. The PX-MiEV boasts an EV mode with a 30-mile range which can toggle between front- and all-wheel drive, a series hybrid mode when the juice dries up and a parallel hybrid system when under full load. Mitsu’s E-4WD system shuffles power to the rear wheels when needed, using the same S-AWC and E-AYC systems as the Evolution X. The PX-MiEV can send torque left-to-right depending on the conditions, and a new center differential motor (unlike the mutli-plate clutch setup on the Evo) actively tweaks torque output to the rear wheels to increase grip.
Inside, the PX-MiEV sports a spartan interior with a number of technologies to keep occupants happy and healthy, including heat reflective glass and paint, along with individual air conditioners. Active safety systems – ranging from a “Multi-Around Monitor” to a front-facing camera that detects fatigue, then alerts the driver through a series of visual, audio and “vibrational” warnings – are sure to find their way into future Mitsubishi models. All the details are yours for the taking the in press release below the fold.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Why not drive when your trip requires a truck, and drive a car when your trip requires a car?
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
The Fluence wont be able to keep up with the pentup demand either
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
About eBay, are you sure?
My understanding from the radio today is that gm is ending the ebay experiment.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
“GM could have chosen to develop the Volt under wraps. They chose to show us the story as it unfolds. This is what causes some to think they are dragging their feet. We have never seen this open dialog before from a car company.”
That is the reason no one else does this.. customers get antsy very quickly and do not understand that a properly engineered car takes YEARS to bring to market..
In the case of the Volt and this website they also get lots and lots of back seat engineering going on also.
God forbid if they did another Camaro and offered pre-ordering with money down.. GM cant bypass the dealer allocation process.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Dont forget, wear gloves and stand on one foot when you do so
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
lol, they have not shown one in orange yet..
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Check this video out, several shots of the car coming at you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT0XgDXujdI&feature=related
The Catfish look is not so apparent .. it looks a lot better in a video.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
“coy” and it came out “koi”.
Hahaha! Great! I’m going to use that with my amphibious line.
Perhaps the designer said to give it some beef and thus the name, Leaf.
(Quote)
September 30th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
For the 60 million households that have more than one car range extender is not needed.
http://evnow.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/curing-range-anxiety/
(Quote)
October 1st, 2009 at 12:54 am
We’re all supporting GM through taxation, and more on topic, LEAF, Volt, Prius and Insight all look like tarted up green appliances. They all say ‘look at me, I don’t care about what my car looks like (except it needs to stand out so you know I’m using less petrol than you) because I’m more evolved and I care about the environment and not my ego (don’t believe me, check out the mural of a wall plug on the side and my green plant logo on the back).’
In other words, all these cars are just different shades of ugly. I’ve heard that Toyota was smart enough to understand that their target demographic fell into the holier than thou, elite-minimalist prick category and styled their car appropriately. They succeeded and the GSE onslaught of similarly styled garbage is now working its way through the pipeline. Soon we can all drive crappy prius-like cars that all basically look the same.
(Quote)
October 1st, 2009 at 1:01 am
I didn’t think GM ever accepted pre-orders for camaro, only the dealers took deposits, and made a list of who would be first in line for their allotment.
Maybe GM knows that a $40,000 car that gets 31.25mpg on the highway and has all the luxury appointments of a mid range civic won’t sell 100,000 units per year for the next decade?
I thought chrysler had a whole slew of EVs and EREVs and BEVs and cars that ran on sunshine and self esteem, what happened to these vehicles? Why is there no talk of the upcoming 230mpg JEEP/Fiat Rubicon powered by lemon grass? Are these vehicles going to be made, or were they just an unsuccessful ploy in the ‘me too’ grab for taxpayer bailouts in 08?
(Quote)
October 1st, 2009 at 12:30 pm
“By not taxing gas we are SUBSIDIZING it because we aren’t pay the true cost to society or our economy (our dollars going bye bye overseas.”
Incorrect. The real problem with dollars going overseas is that our government uses the credit system to generate artificial currency, which means that our currency loses value instead of becoming scarce. If we stopped manipulating/generating artificial currency via the credit system, an overseas trade deficit would result in a market correction that forces us to develop non-foreign energy sources, such as wind, and such as drilling in ANWR.
By manipulating the currency, we are prolonging our development of clean energy alternatives, creating inflation, and producing artificial economic bubbles that result in significant downturns when at last, the bubble bursts.
It is completely erroneous to suggest that we could rectify problems in our monetary policy by simply taxing fuel.
Respectfully,
Dr. Ibringdoh
(Quote)
October 9th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
If it costs less than $25,000 they’ll sell that many in California before the end of the year, easily. I’d buy one in heart beat. I’d love to get out of my ICE but no one seems willing and able to build an electric car for under $30,000. The second someone does you’ll be amazed by the pent up demand on the west coast.
(Quote)