eTec is the wholly-owned and largest subsidiary of Ecotality (ETLY.OB) and recently received a $99 million matched DOE grant to deploy and study EV charging infrastructure using Nissan LEAF vehicles.
I had the chance to speak with eTec’s CEO Don Karner about the coming electric car charging infrastructure revolution.
Tell us about your recent DOE grant and what it means?
The grant is to evaluate charge infrastructure and to try and develop a model for the effects of deployment of charge infrastructure in support of grid-connected vehicles.
It’s not a vehicle demonstration, and its not an infrastructure demonstration per se. The idea is to develop a mature charge infrastructure in five different geographic areas, diverse areas that have different demographics, different geography, different customs and value systems, different employers and to look at deploying infrastructure both at people’s residences after they buy a vehicle and in commercial locations which could be employers, parking structures or retail locations. Also deploying them in true street side public applications, city-owned parking that’s open to the public.
Then to look at utilization of that charging infrastructure such as which chargers are being used, and which ones are not. Why is one charger used more than another or one location more effective than another? How are people willing to extend the mission capability of the vehicle by using charging away from home?
Obviously if all you have is home charging then basically you have a limited radius within which you can operate the vehicle. The infrastructure outside the home both commercial and public is to allow you to extend the range of the vehicle and its usefulness. And with the idea of range extension we’ll also be deploying some level 3 fast charge infrastructure in commercial locations.
Doing that on a grid is the concept initially going in so you’re never more than a certain distance from a fast charger. Now that will be modified somewhat by use. There may be some areas that have a heavier use so you’ll have denser locations or multiple chargers at that single location.
The infrastructure will be initially deployed using a roadmap developed by involving stakeholders in the areas; employers and city government to help us determine locations.
We have partners on board that have the ability to come up with specific locations. For example, a company called CB Richard Ellis which is a major commercial real estate manager so they have millions and millions of square feet being managed for clients and millions of square feet that they own and lease out. So in every one of these cities they have a number of buildings with parking garages and they have retail outlets with parking lots that if the stakeholders say we ought to have to chargers in this area, they might be a source for us to locate the chargers.
We have BP that operates the AM-PM chain of gas stations, one of the things we wanted to try was does it make sense to put some fast charging in traditional fueling stations?
We’ll deploy the infrastructure then we’ll look at how it’s being utilized and also look at how we can provide better information to the vehicle operators are about where chargers are, what their availability is, and in order to develop a balance between information and actual hardware. Obviously if you’re completely ignorant about where chargers are you want to have a lot of them out there so that if you’re driving down the road you see them. But if you have electronic information that told you where chargers were and what their availability is and aids to help you do trip planning, are those going to make it easier for you to extend the range of the vehicle and therefore get you to use the vehicle more or is it just that you still need lots of chargers out there.
So these are all different aspects of the study and evaluation that we’d like to do over a 24 month period while all the data is being collected.
So we deploy charge infrastructure, deploy vehicles, get the system operating and we need a significant enough density of vehicles and infrastructure that’s really representative of what a fully developed electric vehicle economy might look like. So even though it’s a thousand vehicles in each city we still have to mindful of keeping it fairly tight because there are big cities. Then we collect data, store it in a database at the Idaho national lab and then we have various partners like Ohio State University and University of California Davis, the Idaho lab personnel plus all the other scientists in the nation’s science laboratory system to help us look at that data evaluate it look at successes and failures because many times you learn more from something that didn’t work than something that did. At the end, come out with guidance for the next 50 or the next 500 cities as to how they should most effectively deploy infrastructure.
Are you only using the Nissan LEAF vehicles in this study?
The vehicle side will be LEAF vehicles. The chargers that are being deployed are compliant with the SAE J1772 standards so they’re available to any vehicle.
But you will only be studying the behavior of those people driving LEAFs?
That’s initially where we are at right now. That may change over time and its certainly one of the things that the DOE made some stimulus awards to other car companies. None of them were in the cities that we’re operating in, but there may be some interest on DOE’s part to gather data in the cities where those vehicles are being deployed or to make vehicle available for purchase in the cities where the infrastructure is. You’ve got a built in infrastructure it makes sense to use that as a market for all electric vehicle whether it’s a Volt or a Ford transit.
Is your company a hardware producing company or are you coordinating the hardware of others? I’m wondering how your company fits into this.
We build both the level 2 and level 3 hardware. And we were very involved in the late 90s and early 2000s in deployment of EVs in response to the zero emission mandate in California. So we installed all of Chrysler’s infrastructure nationwide for the Epic minivan. We installed a lot of infrastructure for Ford, but not so much for GM. They typically worked through utilities to make that happen. We were buying others EVSEs in those days. We did make the 90 kw fast charger for the Chrysler minivan. Then when the auto EVs went away we had already been working with airport ground support equipment and material handling lift trucks on fast charging and we continued to do that over those 8 or 9 years. So we are in a number of airports through North America supporting both the airports and the airlines with material handling chargers across the country. We’ve got like 5000 chargers deployed throughout North America in industrial applications. We also have a line of chargers for neighborhood vehicles and things like that.
Now with the auto EVS coming back into play were rolling back into fast chargers to support the auto road applications and the level 2 EVSE to support both home and commercial and public charging.
So level 2 is the 240V?
240 V, 40 amp breaker supplying nominal 32 amps to the vehicle. That’s just the AC pass-though stuff. AC charging is typically level 2 and we believe that’s what’s necessary even with PHEVs a lot of folks are advocating just plugging them into convenience outlets, but we think there’s a lot of advantage to having level two charging for those as well. That’s the infrastructure that’s going to roll out. It’s going to be out there so you might as well make the vehicles compatible with it.
Aren’t there several companies out there making level 2 chargers?
Clipper Creek has been in it for some time. They were there in the late 90s as well, in fact we sold a lot of Clipper Creek equipment back then, it was called EVI. The same principles that were part of EVI have now formed Clipper Creek and the box is very similar to what is was in the 90s. Its basically just a smart contactor that checks to make sure everything is safe and then turns on AC to the vehicles.
Now there’s Coulomb and they have a public charging solution for street side parking. In fact they are part of our program for cities that want to do street side parking and collect revenue. Coulomb has a very neat revenue system.
How about level 3 chargers, there are claims about 10 or 30 minute fast charges, and EEStor says they can recharge 52 kwh in 5 minutes. Is all of this stuff realistically possible on today’s grid. Is your equipment able to do that and what are the special demands that such equipment would have?
Well, we’re capable of doing almost anything with respect to fast charging. But you put your finger on it, what’s practical? What’s practical is probably in the 40 to 50 kw range as a power level. And 200 amps as a current level, because you have to get the current onto the vehicle, and once you go above 200 amps, the cord and the connector get very large and some people talk about water cooling and it gets to be a very complicated device. So that translates to if you take the LEAF and you say it has a 30 kwh pack, if you’re charging at 40 kw if you came in at let’s say 40% state of charge and you want to go to 80% state of charge, you have to put in 12 kwh. I’ve got a 40 kw charger so its going to be about a third of an hour or twenty minutes. That’s a very reasonable power range. Can you charge harder? Absolutely, but then you start looking at whether you have the power available at a retail location where somebody wants to come and charge. Let’s say it’s a Starbucks and you want to come in and get a latte, do you really need to turn the vehicle around in 5 minutes? And if so, is Starbucks willing to double the electrical service that they have to supply that power? That hasn’t been our experience in the past. If that’s where everybody goes and it turns out absolute speed is of the utmost importance, then the market will adapt. What we’re looking at with the LEAF is in that 40 kw range and that fits very nicely in strip centers and other commercial locations. You can fit 40 kw into their existing electrical service and you don’t have to spend a lot of money expanding the electrical service.
Does the 40 kw charger run on 200 amps?
It would output a maximum of 200 amps. So if you had a battery pack that was let’s say 400V, to get to 40kw you only need 100 amps. So your cord and connector that connect to the vehicle would be limited to 200 amps. Let’s say you pull up to the vehicle that only has a 150 volt battery. I’m only going to be able to charge that at 200 amps so Im going to be limited to 30 kw. I may have more power capability in my charger but I’m limited by my cord and connector.
Most of the EVs, in fact all of them, all are in the range of 300 to 400 volts. To get the 40 kw you only need the battery to be above 200 Volts to stay below the 200 amps and virtually everyone is doing that.
I don’t think that 200 maps is very restrictive based on what coming to market.
Don’t most residential homes have 200 amp service?
It just depends on where you are in the country. We’re in Phoenix and yes 200 amps is pretty much the standard. A lot of homes out here actually go to 400 amps because there’s a lot of air conditioning load in Phoenix. So typically we don’t have any problem out here, plus all of the houses are relatively new.
If you go to a beach community in California, you may find only a 60 amp service on a little bungalow that doesn’t have air conditioning, for example. If you go to the northeast, an old brownstone there may only have a 50 or 60 amp service.
One of the challenges is to retrofit America with EVSE. In new construction many localities are going to the point where you have to put a 240V 40 amp service in the garage. Once you’ve done that actually installing the EVSE is a fifty dollar job. It’s no big deal. If you do it when the house is new, it’s easy. It’s the retrofit that’s expensive. We’ve got a lot of houses that will have to be retrofitted in America.
How about commercial places like parking garages, strip malls, and gas stations, do these places have a lot of current available?
Usually they’ve got plenty of electric service, the challenge there is typically you want the charger somewhere out in the parking lot and that power is not in the parking lot so you end up doing a lot of concrete and asphalt cutting and trenching with conduit but the electric service is there. If you do it as you build new facilities its very cheap because you’re trenching to put in light poles anyway.
When does your 2 year study actually start?
Nissan will be launching their vehicle in the fourth quarter of next year so well spend the next year basically working with stakeholders locating chargers and getting chargers installed in the commercial space. Then as the vehicles roll out we’ll be installing the chargers in residential places or if it is a fleet vehicle, the overnight location for that fleet vehicle.
Then we anticipate about 6 months of time to populate the vehicles and then we’ll operate in a data collection mode after that.
What are the 5 cities?
Seattle, Portland, San Diego, Phoenix and Tucson and also the interstate corridor between those two cities. In Tennessee there are three cities that form a triangle; Chattanooga, Knoxville, and Nashville.
No plans for NY?
Not as part of this project. Nissan will be looking at rolling the LEAF into NY but we won’t be studying infrastructure there.
Your company is national?
Yes. We cover all of North America.
What is the relationship with Ecotality?
Ecotality is our parent company and we are a wholly-owned subsidiary. Ecotality is a publicly traded company.
Do they do other things besides EV infrastructure?
Yes they have some other companies that do some fuel cell work and batteries and electronics assembly.
Is eTec a big portion?
We’re the biggest division of them.
Do you anticipate that the infrastructure rollout will take 10 years or more?
We’d like to think that coming out of this we’ll have some models in the commercial space that will show people there’s an economic benefit to them to install chargers whether it be an employer that receives employee benefits or a retailer that generates customer loyalty by having chargers. Or chargers that are installed with a subscription and revenue system like Coulomb’s.
This gives us the opportunity to demonstrate a number of value chains that can associate with the chargers. The hope is that when we come out of the project we’ll have demonstrated various way that people can make these chargers economically viable. And we’ll get some viral expansion with OEMS coming into areas to sell vehicles and retailers will decide to put in chargers to make money, and this thing starts to grow by itself.
So do you expect a strong national infrastructure in under ten years?
Yes. I think if we’re going to have a successful rollout of battery electric vehicles we have to have infrastructure to support it. If we’re going to roll out PHEVs and were going to receive benefit from them, again having a strong infrastructure is going to be important. If you have a 20 mile PHEV and you drive 18 miles to work, you’re going to want to be able to plug in at work so you run home on electric.
This infrastructure allows the vehicles to be used in more expansive missions to allow more of what people need to do on a daily basis, and so it’s going to expand the market for those too.
How much does a Level 3 charger cost?
The biggest part of the cost tends to be the installation, but generally in power electronics like that you can look anywhere from 50 cents to a dollar a watt. So you’re looking at 20 to $40,000. It’s on the order of what it costs to install a gasoline pump.
It seems like level 3 chargers are going to be a relatively small contribution to the overall charging infrastructure?
One would think so, that’s what you’d like to have happen. You’d like people to mostly charge at home and at night, that’s the prime objective. The usable available infrastructure is there to help them extend the usability of their vehicles.
The level 3 chargers provide an insurance policy, so if you decide you need to go farther you can stop for 10 minutes, get a hit, get another 20 or 30 miles and then you can do what you need to do and get home.
You could imagine its not like a gas pump, if you have one level 3 charger and everyone is pulling up with EV’s the lines would be miles long if it takes a half an hour to recharge.
Right, and that goes back to information, people need to know availability, because you’ll have several chargers within a relative short radius. If we’re seeing chargers continually busy during peak tines it’s a signal of success, but tells us we probably need to put in more chargers
+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (6:13 am)Charging time will still take too long. I don’t want to wait around a station for 20 minutes to get something like 1/2 a charge.
I still haven’t seen anything that will be better in the short term than voltec.
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+3
Sep 28th, 2009 (6:38 am)If it is going to take 20 or more minutes to charge the car, I will become totally bored. I will hate it. With Voltec, I don’t have to worry about this.
I will only charge at home and work. And use gas if I have too. One of the joys the Volt brings to us is the freedom it provides. I can still drive across country with it and not be afraid of running out of juice.
Honestly, I really don’t think BEVs are ready for prime time.
I do wish them luck though.
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+3
Sep 28th, 2009 (6:41 am)Exactly.
And no one seems to be talking about the load on the power grid, if everyone starts charging during the day. Where is all this extra power generation going to come from?
IMHO, GM needs to push the benefits of slow charging at night! Remember, the Volt was designed for the 78% of the people that commute less than 40 miles per day…..
NPNS
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (6:45 am)Just in from EVWORLD.COM
Pretty good from two quarts of diesel fuel .
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=21861
Volvo to Offer Diesel Plug-in Hybrid in 2012
Source: Volvo
Class: PRESS RELEASE
SYNOPSIS: Volvo’s PHEV will have combined driving range of 1200 km (745 mi) while consuming fuel at a rate of just 1.9 liters/100km (123 mpg).
Volvo is introducing a series-produced plug-in hybrid as early as 2012. Pure electric power from the battery will cover the daily transport needs of 75 percent of European drivers. For longer distances, an efficient diesel hybrid engine automatically takes over. The combined range is about 1200 kilometres. Carbon dioxide emissions will average out at 49 grams per kilometre, with fuel consumption of 1.9 litres per 100 km.
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+4
Sep 28th, 2009 (6:52 am)A BEV is not a failure if it does not operate just like a ICE car, it will be a different thing.
All these BEVs are best when charged at home overnight, convenience charging while you shop or are at work is just that, a convenience.
If you could refuel your ICE powered car at night, while parked in your garage, would you really ever visit a gas station?
10-15 minute charges are very practical with todays batteries, and you dont have to fully recharge your pack, once you are done with your coffee at Starbucks you unplug your car and go on your way.
I liked this statement, none of these stupid $1000 chargers waiting to be vandalized:
” In new construction many localities are going to the point where you have to put a 240V 40 amp service in the garage. Once you’ve done that actually installing the EVSE is a fifty dollar job. It’s no big deal. If you do it when the house is new, it’s easy. It’s the retrofit that’s expensive. We’ve got a lot of houses that will have to be retrofitted in America.”
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (7:13 am)Actually, the way I see it the volt was designed for %100 of the population 100% of the time.
I think the quick charge research is great, but the volt can be deployed today to %100 of the population if they just made enough of them quick enough.
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (7:35 am)GREAT INTERVIEW, Lyle! He says eTec will install chargers up & down the entire west coast (in Seattle, Portland & San Diego), as well as in Phoenix and Tucson and along “the interstate corridor between those two cities”. Interestingly, he does NOT specifically mention the interstate corridor between Seattle, Portland & San Diego or the cities of San Francisco & Los Angeles —but I assume eTec (or their competitors like Coulomb) will provide chargers in ‘frisco & LA, as well as along the interstates connecting them, to allow EVs to travel from Seattle to San Diego without ever being far from a charger. (Of course, existing GPS equipment can be easily updated to show charger locations, so a driver will always know how far it is to the next one.)
West coast EV dealers will LOVE being able to tell potential customers they can recharge their cars all the way from Mexico to Canada & in all major cities in between!
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (7:54 am)Lyle,
Fantastically thorough and comprehensive interview. It is clear your experience with the electric Mini-Cooper has prepared you to ask all the pertinent questions and get to the nut and bolts of the issue.
I learned a lot from this post.
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (7:55 am)Now a 745 mile range would be something of interest to me.
I really am still disappointed in the “less than 400″ mile range that the Volt will presumably have.
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (8:05 am)Holy cow. THis guy was informed and informative. He openly discussed competitors wiithout disparaging them, and seemed willing to share his comprehensive knowledge on the subject at hand. He may be a CEO, but he is obviously also an engineer and has apparently never set foot inside a business college to learn the fine art of duplicity. Good for him.
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (8:05 am)But a GPS will not show 3 cars waiting for 10-20 minute charge…makes you wonder if charge time limits should be enforced…how to enforce it.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (8:18 am)It is sort of exciting to see things all falling in to place. We have enough inertia now that there is no turning back, and when energy prices climb the adoption of new technologies will quicken.
Energy is cheap now and the majority of people are forgetting the goal of getting off of foreign oil.
People have short memories ($4 gas), even as we see oil money funding Iran’s missile and nuclear weapons development, and as our money continues to flow overseas for energy instead of into our own economy.
Cheap Natural gas is also slowing the adoption of Wind Projects this year. electricity generated by CNG now only costs $.03KWH, compared to $.06KWH for Wind (without govt credits). Of course wind farms may only cost $.06 KWH over their 30 years but the cost is up front even if the fuel is free.
So cheap energy is helping our economy for now but it is slowing the investment and national concensus toward the new energy economy.
OBAMA’s priorities are to get goverment control of health care, and his next priorities will be to start raising taxes to pay for his spending. The next thing after health care will be to take away the Income limits on the FICA tax so that millionaires can SAVE social security. This will be the biggest tax increase ever, at least Until Obama gets on to the next tax increase.
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (8:23 am)I agree totally, Rashiid! Volvo now joins Ford’s Fusion hybrid with a >700 mile range! If I were Tom Stephens and/or Bob Lutz, I’d immediately form an “emergency red team” of designers/engineers to make an additional spare gas tank available, at least as an option to Volt buyers, to increase the Volt’s range to >700 miles!!!
The cost should be minimal for an optional spare tank for the Volt, but the marketing benefits should be very significant if Ford, Volvo (& very likely other hybrid makers) continue to promote their >700 mi range capability —if the Volt could also offer a comparable range for extended travel!
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (8:30 am)“But a GPS will not show 3 cars waiting for 10-20 minute charge….”
____________
A properly designed “smart system” could tell you just about anything you want to know, easily including whether a charge station was in use, or if there were any more EV’s on deck.
Even if a station had only enough power to support 5 plugs, they could still install 10 (or even more ). Then (say at the shopping mall) all 10 cars could hook up with 1/2 of them waiting their turn. When your time came up and was done, your iphone would then notify you that charging was complete.
While driving to the mall (before you’ve even hooked up), the system could tell you your approximate wait time and time to complete the charge via the iphone as well.
/retailers will be glad to pay at least part of the expense on the installation of these stations, they now have a “captive customer” . They can sell you all that junk food you used to get at the quick trip.
//maybe it would be better to install these things at the gym
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (8:46 am)It will be great to see this infrastructure actually put in place. Hopefully it won’t be long before you could drive coast to coast in a BEV using public charging stations. When that event takes place it will mean that the BEV has finally arrived.
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-2
Sep 28th, 2009 (8:50 am)Where are they going to put a 30 gallon gas tank?
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Sep 28th, 2009 (9:06 am)But will it be available in North America. Let me guess!!!!!
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:09 am)BP is smart to include charging stations. The oil companies that disregard this trend will be left behind. The infrastructure that exists with gas stations is enormous.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (9:12 am)I can understand the wait at a charging station which would be similar in concept/layout to a gas station nowadays (drive in, fill/charge up, with the intent of driving away within minutes), but I can’t help but to wonder if dedicated parking spots (with the intent of staying for hours) with a charger at it will lead to fistfights on the sidewalks… if you have one guy driving an EV to its maximum battery range to get work and needs the charge to get home, and somebody else who drove only 5 miles just pulls into the same parking spot and just wants to top up his battery…
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-3
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:13 am)Obama Decreed:
“He who has nothing should have less, and that which he has shall be taken from him”.
[Not in so many words, but that's what it amounts to.]
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-1
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:20 am)You are only covering part of the equation.
What is the anticipated “charge” [ get it
] to the consumer willing to wait that 20 minutes to ‘fill up’? I would be interested in opening an “am/pm” styled station for electric vehicles, or adding charging stations to an existing one. What’s the cost recovery time looking to be? Or will they be pitching ‘tax rebates’ and ‘deductions’ to cover the cost for these also; which still means all of the taxpayers getting hit with that bill too?
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:30 am)These companies don’t seem to realize that if there are long lines at charging stations, people will stop using their electric vehicle to commute to work. They will use it only during the times where the round trip will get them home safely so they can recharge at night. I know I have no plans to rid myself of a gasoline powered vehicle for quite sometime. That is assuming I purchase something other than a Volt. If I do purchase a Volt, I would care less about public charging stations. That is just the way most Volt owners will be able to act. That is what we like about having a range extender on board. Go GM. Go Volt.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (9:32 am)I agree.
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:33 am)BEVs are ready for more like “limited” prime time. Someone will end up writing a book titled “The Trials and Tribulations of an Electric Car Driver”. And it will sell in the millions. Any volunteers?
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Sep 28th, 2009 (9:35 am)As long as it’s taken from everyone
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:35 am)Yes, but GM seems to be pushing the charging station mode more. Makes you wonder what they intend to bring to the market in 2011 or 2012. REVA’s electric car? An electric Spark? Why else are they pushing the charging station agenda so hard with the utilities and cities?
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Sep 28th, 2009 (9:36 am)Absolutely.
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+5
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:45 am)They will need about 15 gallon at 50 MPG to get a combined 790 mile range (40 electric + 750 (at 15 x 50)). Assuming the Volt gets only 40 MPG you would need a 17 gallon tank get about 700 miles in range. Not very hard to find space I would think. It really depends on the MPG in charge sustaining mode. Which we don’t know yet.
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-1
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:45 am)I’m thinking charging station business structure could end up somewhat like gas stations. The utility companies will want to sell the electricity at a higher rate (2x, 3x, maybe more…?) They might then install the stations at a discounted price to the retailer. The retailer then gets a small percentage of the electrical revenue, but the real money for them is in the “captive customer”, just like it is today at the gas stations — they don’t make a lot of money on the gas, most is on the concessionary sales.
To be clear, I don’t know that government involvement in the initial deployment of charging stations is completely necessary. For example, if Best Buy starts selling lots of Aptera 2e’s, I could see their parking lots being the first to incorporate charging stations . . . all profit motivated.
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+6
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:47 am)From a Mini-E drivers perspective.
The issue in my mind is not waiting 20 minutes. The issue is there are two or three things we do every day that take 20 minutes to a few hours, so at those times is the opportune time to charge. Going shopping, getting your hair done, sitting at starbucks, playing golf, tennis, meeting a friend at a restaurant or if you are so inclined, at work.
Then charging takes exacctly 5 seconds.
We are a two car family. The Mini-E with a 100 mile range fits in beautifully with our lifestyle. In the three months of driving we have had only one time where we needed to use our other car, a 4 cylinder Ford Escape, and that was a 400 mile trip to Paso Robles. It really comes down to where you live, are you a one car or two car family, your commute, and other factors, but I am convinced that for a majority or at least a large number of American car buyers the 100% electric car will work just fine. For others, a single car family, or a person who drives a longer range, commute, a Voltec setup will be a better solution.
A great thing happens when you have the Mini-E in your garage. It is always your car of choice and it is always 100% charged and ready to take you where you need to go. Before with a two gas car family the decision of whose car to take comes down to who has the most gas in the tank, which car has less in the back seat, which car is cleaner? With the Mini-E it is always the preferred choice. Thus my mileage for “my” car has gone from 1000 miles a month to 1500 miles a month in the Mini-E. I actually drive the electric car 50% more miles that I did with my gas car.
A typical day is about a thirty mile commute arriving back home around 6pm with a 65% SOC remaining. Hop out of the car, plug it in and enter the house for the evening. If we are going out in a few hours we unplug, have a 100% SOC and spend the evening out. If we are staying home, the next morning its 100% SOC ready to go for the day. Whatever the case it feels like ground hog day over and over, 100% SOC and ready to go. It is a weird feeling driving by the gas stations and knowing one day in a decade or two, what we know as a gasoline station today, will not exist.
When I push the car hard with full on tire chirping acceleration or driving on the freeways at 80+mph, the Mini-E never fails to deliver at least 80 miles per charge with 95Ah per 100 miles.
An average day out and about 50% freeway 50% city just cruising normally the car returns 90 miles per charge with 75Ah per 100 miles. If I try to conserve and really watch my acceleration, keep it at 65 on the freeway, I can easily get 105 miles on a charge using 55Ah per 100 miles.
My collective total for 4500 miles is 73 Ah per 100 miles at 92 miles per charge.
We have found that for long trips 85 miles or more round trip, we try to be as efficient as possible avoiding the fast starts and high speeds.
For me personally, at no time have I ever had range anxiety. The SOC meter is a really reliable guage which really surprised me. My 2007 Gem car it’s a bit of a guess on the SOC.
I don’t notice that much difference in the Mini-E compared to a gas car. It’s a normal everyday car. The throttle response is instantaneous, the regen is awesome, The acceleration is slot car like, I like the engine whine both under acceleration and regen, it gives you a very good feel of your rpms much like a normal car although much quieter and with no shifting. It’s both different and similar.
You’re going to love the Volt when you drive electric. If you have the abilty to generate your own solar fuel (I know it’s not fuel, but we still use the term horsepower) then you will be driving for less than $0.50 a gallon of fuel for the rest of your life.
Cheers
Mini-E #183
Peder
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Sep 28th, 2009 (9:50 am)Completely agree!
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+5
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:51 am)Nasaman,
I agree it will be a marketing tool the other companies will use against the Volt, but who really drives 700 miles without stopping for 10 minutes every 350 or 400 miles? I know I don’t anymore. I used to when I was very young. It is not a question of bladder control because I control mine very well, but the stiffness in the joints and muscles after driving that far with out stretching.
But, yes, it would be OK with me to see a larger fuel tank as an option. I would not purchase it myself. If it were standard, it would not cause me to purchase a Volt over a Ford Fusion hybrid. The other qualities of the Volt is what sells it for me. Not the distance I can drive on gasoline after the electric range is consumed.
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:52 am)GREAT INTERVIEW, Lyle!
Couldn’t agree more with this statement. Etec and the DOE infrastructure grant is a big deal, but AFAIK no one has actually interviewed eTec about it — they’ve just rehashed the press releases. So congrats to Lyle wearing his journalist hat on this one! This is a very informative interview with information not available elsewhere.
Not sure about charging systems connecting LA and San Francisco. You could certainly do this, in fact there are enough trailer parks with higher voltage outlets along this route that you could say such a system is in place today, but those cites are a long way apart, and at interstate speeds you’d be stopping every 70 miles or so. In this regard, an (the?) owner of the Nissan dealership in San Diego, who told me that he wouldn’t know much about the Leaf until January of next year, did tell me that Nissan was emphasizing that the Leaf was a “commuter car”. The only car which wouldn’t have to be characterized this way would be the Volt, and given its size I wouldn’t say it’s the ultimate highway cruiser.
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:52 am)Rashiid,
If you regularly drive more than 400 miles at a time without stopping, we’re going to have to start calling you Iron A@@, or Giant Bladder.
My last American pickp truck had a from full without topping off range that was significantly less than a Tesla Roadster, and I never felt a deficiency, so I don’t know what your fixation on absurdly excessive range is all about.
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+7
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:54 am)Strange attitude for someone who wouldn’t have a job had not the Obama Administration moved forcefully on the GM bankruptcy. Reminds me of a very distant family member who proudly attends the “tea parties”, oblivious to the fact that she’s on welfare and doesn’t pay any taxes.
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (9:56 am)N Riley
I hope the GM push is for work places and for the Apartment and Condo complexes. A large number of potential Volt customers live in such places.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (9:57 am)Good interview Lyle! Lots of information all together in one spot is good.
This is solving a problem that would limit BEV (and other EV) sales, namely, not everyone has a garage. The places where EV would work best (ie cities) is also where charging infrastructure is lacking.
In my situation (50 mile round-trip commute), having a convenience charge in the middle makes 100% gas-free travel possible in my new Volt.
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (10:00 am)Those retailer charge stations will be faced with another problem. A shopper plugs up the vehicle and goes into the mall to shop. Four or five hours later the owner comes out to get in the car to drive home. While the shopper was inside all that time the car was charged and ready to go in less than one hour. The other three or four hours the plug was “tied-up” with no one else able to use it. What do you do about those situations? Charge by the amount of electricity it takes to charge the vehicle plus the time the vehicle was plugged-in after the charging was over? They have to do something. There are plenty of people around who will say that they don’t care about the next person in line if their vehicle is getting serviced. So, what do we do about them?
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:00 am)There ya go.
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (10:02 am)Or my co-workers who attended a tea party, oblivious to the irony that their engineering jobs depend entirely on government-funded infrastructure design…
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:04 am)Unfortunately most of the solar energy collected at your house goes unused if your electric car is at work during the day. For electric car owners, a small wind microturbine may make more sense in that regard…
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+4
Sep 28th, 2009 (10:15 am)Where was all of this fiscal concern when the GOP was in power and we were bankrupting ourself with a trumped up war? I welcome the fiscal concern of all conservatives, on the premise that it doesn’t conveniently disappear the next time the White House changes hands. Take a look at federal deficit trends over the last 20 years, and you’ll see that Obama is no worse than Reagan or Bush. Get real, people, and stop regurgitating propoganda. If we are to dig ourselves out of our fiscal hole it will involve slashing spending AND raising taxes. Math 101.
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (10:17 am)I drive across country or to Florida frequently. I live in Connecticut.
I like to spend less time driving and more time at my destination.
I get in the car and drive. I get to Florida in about 18 hours of straight driving. Colorado in 2.5 days. The less stopping I have to do, the better.
I hope you don’t have a problem with me doing that, EVO.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:19 am)I think that will be where the utility company will come into platy. They will address the need with the apartment building owners as the request for information comes to them. They may be proactive in some areas and address it before the apartment owner even knows he may have a problem. Most apartment owners and businesses will see this as a way of getting and keeping residents and employees. That will work for a time, but only for a time. As more come on line that extra “hook” will be negated.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:21 am)charge them by the minutes.. many places will not allow you to resell kwh of electricity anyways, so might as well sell them something else.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:22 am)Funny. I can just picture Rashiid or Iron A@@. Driving along and completing that 750 mile drive. He would be sloshing as he hurried to the bathroom. He will be saying “Boy, I wish I had left that cooler of drinks and sandwiches at home”.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:23 am)I would think so, yes.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:26 am)Ditto on the ditto.
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (10:30 am)It sounded like he had a good working relationship in the past with his competitors. Not a bad way to address the problems of solving charging station installations. Working with the competition helps them all to survive. One company helps the other and so forth. It was an informative article. Thanks to Lyle for bringing it to us.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:33 am)Peder, that is a nice report on the Mini.. How about reporting energy consumption in kwh instead?.. Ah is good but to compare it other cars we would need the average voltage of the pack.
How about the Pinifarina Bluecar?.. 155 mile range with a 30kwh pack, 5 doors and seats 4. Will start deliveries next June.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:39 am)For more information about Idaho National Laboratory research projects and career opportunities, visit the facebook site at http://www.facebook.com/idahonationallaboratory.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:41 am)In Calif. we have net metering. I produce 13000 KWHs a year. 4000KWHs go to power the car (12,000 miles a year), 8500 to power the house. It does not matter when you generate or use the energy, just what your balance is at the end of the year.
We charge at night when the there is cheap abundent and wasted energy on the grid, and we produce during the day when the grid needs extra help during peak demand.
Wind is 1/2 the price of solar and is the better option f you have a good wind profile.
hard to put an oil well and refinery in your home, easier to do wind or solar.
Peder
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-4
Sep 28th, 2009 (10:45 am)The thing about borrowing and going into debt, whether you are a person or a government is what are you spending it on.
A person that borrows money to go to med school is probably borrowing wisely, but if he borrows to buy things he can never pay back he is in trouble.
Obama has his priorities backwards, he needs to be borrowing to spend money to grow our economy in the future. That growth will help dwarf today’s debt. Instead he is spending things that don’t have economic payback, it is just spend spend spend (Lets give everyone health care including illegals) and tax tax tax (the rich can pay for social security and health care).
Without growth the tax revenues shrink and the economy will collapse and we’ll be rationing health care, then education, then food,,,,,
I am not real optimistic on our countries future if we can’t get sustained significant economic growth to pay off the excesses of Obama AND Bush. Of course Bush was fighting a war and the economy would have been fine if it hadn’t been destroyed by the Liberal caused Housing Bubble and crash.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:52 am)They seem to be more concerned with alleviating range anxiety with folks driving pure BEVs, then with getting more bang for the buck and adopting EVs in general.
Work place Parking lots are the best place to focus. Lets get the folks commuting like Loboc with his 50 mile commute to be 100% electric. I don’t think 5 days a week he wants to stop at Starbucks on the way home for an hour to get enough juice to get home without using gas.
One of the nice things about work place parking lots is most cars will be charged in the morning before summer air conditioning peak loads hit in the afternoon.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:53 am)sodium-sulfur battery array(s) should take care of peak load(s). Guess they are fairly cheap to produce, and environmentally friendly.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:55 am)This is an interesting article about a plan for Tesla charging stations between S.F. and SoCal funded by CARB. Wouldn’t these also work for Volts?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?type=autos&f=/c/a/2009/09/23/MN9719QVGD.DTL
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:55 am)Exactly, my friend. I keep eating and drinking to a minimum.
I only eat and drink when I have to stop for gas. I don’t have to stop and pee every hour.
But it is not just that. I would love to make the price of gas a non issue.
If I could fill up once a month, that would be great. That is really what I want out of a larger gas tank.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:02 am)“A properly designed “smart system” could tell you just about anything you want to know, “
Dude!!!
You wanna make money in this?!?!?!?!
Write an iPhone app or someshit like that that’s platform insensitive that will do exactly that and sell it. You’d be able to find the most empty station.
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-1
Sep 28th, 2009 (11:02 am)Check out Better Place and the swap concept. It will be fully functional around the same time the Volt is out on the roads.
Full 24 kWh charge in under two minutes. Uses today’s lithium-ion battery technology.
http://www.betterplace.com
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:03 am)Herm,
The Mini-E has a guage for AH per 100miles so that is very easy to keep track of.
The miles per KWH is not reported on the instrument cluster readout. My best estimate is a combination of reading my digital sdge meter after a charge, subtracting the house load and reviewing my monthly usage, combined with the fiqures from the sticker on the car.
Unfortunatly I do not have a seperate meter for the car.
City driving is 3.5 miles per KWH. Hwy driving is 2.85 miles per KWH based on my real world experiance. The Mini-E is a heavy car and not very aerodynamic. I would suspect that the Volt will do much better.
The Volt may well be my first BEV-REEV purchase if and when they take the Mini-E out of my hands.
Hope the info helps.
Peder
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:07 am)I dunno if everyone knows this but fast charge has been designed out of the SAE J1772. Why? because the specs are 240V 70A MAX.
That’s only 16.8KW
Charging any faster with this connector may violate any warranties, if not have a CarBQue.
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge!!
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:08 am)It seems to me all this emphasis on infrastructure is to justify rate increases by the utilities. The benefit of an EV is the low-cost of electricity relative to gasoline. If utilities start to jack up rates to pay for infrastructure that utilizes power during peak day times the attractiveness of EV’s will be diminished.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:09 am)Maybe they do it based on principle. Most Americans do not want an ever increasing ever knowing government intruding into their daily lives any more than absolutely necessary. Tea parties are just one way to voice their opinions. November 2010 and 2012 will be another way. At the rate the Obama administration and congress is going there are going to be a lot of politicians looking for work within the democrat and republican spheres of influence. Hopefully some of these people will never be heard from again. It will take years to fight back the government and get it back under control again. I have not been pleased with any of our governments for decades. IMO.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:17 am)You are certainly beating Lyle in miles per charge. Seems like he was only getting around 75 – 80 MPC. But, again, I don’t think Lyle was trying to be conservative. He stayed on the freeway at 70 and above. If I remember correctly. Good report on your experience, Peder. Enjoyed reading it. You did a good job of laying it out.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:23 am)BTW,
The license plate for the car is “SUN GAS”
For those that do wind enegy, I would suggest not using “WIND GAS” folks may get the wrong idea
Cheers
peder
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:27 am)That’s right, reliable health care is a concept that could never pay back anything for an economy of 300 million people?
“Of course Bush was fighting a war and the economy would have been fine if it hadn’t been destroyed by the Liberal caused Housing Bubble and crash.” Are you saying Bush is a liberel?
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:28 am)Parking meters?
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (11:28 am)A trip from San Diego to Phoenix in a Leaf is going to require a 20 minute top off every 50 miles or so. That doesn’t sound like something I’d ever want to do.
I think about 160 kW, along with much larger batteries, is about the minimum we’d want to be comfortable replacing most ICE cars with BEVs. Until then BEVs will mostly only be second cars or fleet vehicles.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:35 am)“Work place Parking lots are the best place to focus.”
Mr. Karner said in Lyles interview, “It’s not a vehicle demonstration, and its not an infrastructure demonstration per se. The idea is to develop a mature charge infrastructure in five different geographic areas, diverse areas that have different demographics, different geography, different customs and value systems, different employers and to look at deploying infrastructure both at people’s residences after they buy a vehicle and in commercial locations which could be employers ” so the study will help to answer that question when folks are given a variety of charging choices.
Hopefully the study will end with proven ideas on effective charging location and type, instead of using a shot gun approach on infrastructure in the future.
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+3
Sep 28th, 2009 (11:39 am)Let’s try not begin a political debate on false perceptions. I’m quite sure that this administration will not be as generous to the rich and wealthy than the one before. Try and get more informed.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:53 am)“Unfortunately most of the solar energy collected at your house goes unused if your electric car is at work during the day. For electric car owners, a small wind microturbine may make more sense in that regard…”
Small wind may be more cost effective in some locations, although generally the turbines will not provide nearly enough “fuel” for propulsion. Solar is a great option though if you use the grid as your battery.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:56 am)Wouldn’t that would be an incentive to use off peak electricity?
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Sep 28th, 2009 (12:05 pm)The Volt is smaller car than Fusion. It is almost sub-compact size. No room for a gargantuan gas tank. Don’t even think such nonsense. Much rather see extra space utilized for more battery. A 100 mile range Super Volt makes me tingle with goose bumps galore.
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (12:06 pm)Well this is too off topic for this thread so i’ll drop subject.
It is well documented (but not reported by the liberal media) how the financial crisis was caused by the Obamas, Reeds, Franks, Pelosi, crowd and Bush, McCain warned for years, watch the video below as one example. The Liberals are ruining the country, but people like Bush and McCain didn’t do enough to stop them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM
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Sep 28th, 2009 (12:11 pm)Best Buy is selling Aptera’s and electric bikes for the greater good NOT for profit. How dare you think such a thing about my beloved Best Buy (aka CC Killer).
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Sep 28th, 2009 (12:15 pm)Does anyone live in Eugene Oregon?
If so, go take a look see of this: http://www.arcimoto.com/
Take a test drive too and report back.
/que mission impossible music…
This message will self destruct in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 .o0O(BLAM!)
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Sep 28th, 2009 (12:15 pm)I want all Sonic Drive-ins to have Charging stations. And how ’bout them Drive-in theaters that are popping up again. Git Er Done.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (12:17 pm)That guy (Obama) has his hand so deep in my pocket sometimes i think i have a third leg. At least I still have the shirt on my back….for now anyhow.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (12:19 pm)Tesla uses a different connector. And I wanna say they also charge at higher voltage.
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (12:19 pm)Yes, the EREV is the car for RIGHT NOW. If you can run a table saw in your garage, you can charge a Volt. No retrofit needed. And you can drive it to work even if you don’t have a charger at work. And, unless you work nights, you shouldn’t charge at work. Our existing grid can handle over 150 million plug-in vehicles as long as they are charged at off-peak hours (mostly night). Daytime workday charging will put additional stress on the grid. Don’t do it. The first time that someone can blame a power failure on electric cars will cause all the talk-radio nutcases to send all their followers out to buy coal-fired steam engined ExcursioHummers to prove their loyalty to brainlessness. It will take time to upgrade the grid to handle daytime charging. We will get there, but EREVs work right RIGHT NOW.
btw: As soon as I can buy an EREV ExcursioHummer, count me in. It is just the coal fired ones I don’t appreciate.
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (12:23 pm)Yes I understand this is primarily a proving ground initiative.
However my point is that the key to rapid adoption of BEV/EREV is to make the economics work. Convenience is nice.
But if Corporate America and most large employers were encouraged to show what good corporate citizens they are by providing charging stations for employees, then many more people will buy the Volts and Leafs because charging at work for quite a few people is the way to make the car affordable.
Convenience is nice for occasional long trips etc. to have charging stations but that will happen anyway when there is mass adoption.
The critical path to mass adoption is to get as many people driving over 15,000 miles a year electrically (to justify their investment), and that can’t be done unless people can charge at work.
50 mile round trip commute that is all electric will justify the cost of these cars. The Leaf can do it without charging at work, the Volt can’t. The Volt has the advantage over the leaf for out of town trips, but if you can’t charge your Volt at work then the Leaf will save many people more money on their daily commutes.
I think the VOLT configuration’s success is therefore highly contingent on the commitment of large employers to provide charging structure for their employees.
Perhaps this is where Government Motors should be focusing a lot of their financial incentives because if they do the VOLT will suceed and GM will survive.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (12:28 pm)Shouldn’t your name “Obamination”?
lol..
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Sep 28th, 2009 (12:28 pm)THIS is the best explanation of US politics I have seen…
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a3b_1252966753
This man went to the taxpayers march in Washington armed with a camera and microphone…
some of it is so cringe worthy I damn near dislocated my shoulders.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (12:29 pm)In fact my plan (and I’m saving) is to buy a EREV / BEV in second half 2012.
My expectation is I can buy an EREV (assuming 32-40 mile AER) only if I can charge it at work so that I can drive electrically the rest of the day.
Otherwise i will go BEV (assuming 80-100 AER).
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Sep 28th, 2009 (12:33 pm)That’s a good idea. I guess if Best Buy wants to keep showing real world drivers, they can always go to Best Buy for a free charge and let would be buyers ask some questions to the owner. Sell hot dogs and snack stuff, kind of like Fry’s here in CA has, a sandwich shop. I can see that happening, at least in CA. Besides, most EV’rs would want to show off their hooptie.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (12:57 pm)Rashiid
I also would like a larger tank, but would only put more than 3–4 gallons in it except when on a long trip. However I can live with a small tank that gives me a range of 300 miles which I firmly believe will be standard with the Volt.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (1:00 pm)Peder,
Thank-You for that well worded report , it was well done and appreciated .
Hands on experience is so much better than guessing anytime .
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Sep 28th, 2009 (1:13 pm)I like your optimism. Too bad I couldn’t write a line of programming.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (1:25 pm)I am sure you have the talk-radio nutcases down pat. Either that or you don’t know what you are talking about. There are plenty of people everywhere just waiting on the chance to show-up electric transportation. Most of the radio talk shows I have listened to (which is not many and not very much) have been proponents of moving to energy independence. They don’t want to be in debt to any foreign powers or to the U.S. government. Both makes sense to me. We might could use some more of that kind of talk. Talk radio gets a bad rap (and some of it is deserved) but I hear just as bad stuff from the TV networks (broadcast and cable). It mostly depends on your perspective. IMO.
Edited: I go by not believing much I see on TV or hear on the radio. If I don’t witness it myself I wait until I can determine the truth from multiple sources that don’t have an ax to grind. It is getting very hard to find someone on either media that does not want to grind their ax. Again, IMO. For what it is worth. Which to you and many is probably very little. And that is alright.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (1:29 pm)I don’t see them changing it either, old man.
I’ll take it either way. I just wish it had a longer range, that’s all.
I realize we can’t have everything that we want, especially at first go.
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (1:31 pm)It will be available in Israel around that time, you mean, don’t you? If it ever comes to the North American market it will be limited to the big cities for a very long time. I don’t see it being a viable solution for the U.S. and Canada. It will impact some, but I bet not like in small island nations and other landlocked small nations.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (1:32 pm)Hey CJS,
I know you’re looking for an affordable EV option (as am I). I haven’t seen one yet, but I figure there has to be one of these (i.e. 3 wheel commuter) available in a DIY kit form sometime sooner or later.
My requirements would be a 60+ mile range, roll cage, and air conditioning.
(Fiberglass would be ok but I’d rather work with aluminum and lightweight steel).
/actually, there’s your money making idea . . . develop and sell 3 wheel ev kits
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Sep 28th, 2009 (1:37 pm)and the parking meter has a cable attached that recharges you Volt.. complete with rotary dial and meter maids.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (1:38 pm)At one time GM was talking about dual saddle type tanks of around 8 or 10 gallons each, if I remember correctly. If they put in two 6 gallons tanks and get 50 miles per gallon that would equal 640 mile range. I don’t like the idea of dual tanks because it makes it more complicated having two pumps unless the pump was outside of the tank and the fuel was pulled from both equally. They would have to connect for refueling. Just seems too complicated for what you would get in return. And I bet there is plenty of room for a 12 – 15 gallon gas tank. It would not have to be symmetrical. It could have an upper chamber that gravity feeds the lower chamber. That upper chamber could extend forward or across the vehicle. Only a close observation of the vehicle’s schematic could tell how best to fit one in. I am not sure we have seen that kind of detail drawing.
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+1
Sep 28th, 2009 (1:44 pm)That is about how I feel also. Let GM combat the marketing by Ford and the rest with the “truth” about the Volt. If I drive 300 miles I am ready to stop. Plenty ready. It works for me. I probably will fill the tank up each time I expect to go out of town and keep only a few gallons in it during the other times. Maybe only a gallon or two. Just enough to get me to a service station to fill-up with a few more gallons or fill-up the tank. No problems with a larger tank, but I just don’t think it will be needed. Let the Fords of the world carry all that excess weight.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (1:47 pm)so hwy is 0.350 kwh/mile and city is 0.286kwh/mile, not very high numbers but like you said the Mini has not been optimized.
Since city driving is usually much slower then an aerodynamic Mini would be expected to also get 0.286kwh/mile on the hwy. The Volt gets about the same range on the city as the hwy.
BTW, a Tesla Roadster gets 0.275kwh/mile on the hwy at 65mph.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/
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Sep 28th, 2009 (1:56 pm)I think you will see that change.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (1:57 pm)On your way back home do you fuel up in Jersey so they fill you up while you releive yourself or do you just empty the big gulp cup at the toll booths in New york
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (2:16 pm)Thanks Peder for the nice report. You confirmed my belief that responsible people won’t feel range anxiety. I have grown tired of all the range-anxiety propaganda out there.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (2:16 pm)My hope is that this will help save money on electricity by balancing the load. Charge cars at night and give people a discount for their night charging. Then you can also run your dish washer and start your drier at night and save even more.
I doubt that if every car in the country charged overnight about 6kwh that the peak load would equal a summers day in august with all the air conditioning running, office lights etc.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (2:58 pm)Slightly related topic..
People are asking why get an EV if there are no charging stations.
Well, if all the major car dealers bring out EV’s, surely they’d have at least one charging station on the dealer lot?
Pretty much every town I’ve been to (or at least every 100 miles) there has been a dealer for every single (major brand.. i doubt BMW sells many up in cottage country :p) dealer..
a small fee to charge up “at their house”, sounds pretty good, no?
Also, having shops attached to most dealers should mean high amp service to run said charger at a high rate.
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-1
Sep 28th, 2009 (3:11 pm)This 3 wheel vehicle is too many compromises: interior space, passenger capacity, range, dealer network. It appears to beat the Volt on the number 1 spec for most people: price.
Hopefully it will not take too long for GM to offer a less expensive EREV. $40+K is not mainstream. Let’s talk needs for an EREV…
I need highway transportation for 1-4 adults in a temperature controlled environment without range anxiety…and some tunes would be nice. GM…you want impress me…make the vehicle last longer than you predict at a price that is mainstream.
Of course, the Volt might follow the Hummer business model…adding less capable, less expensive models to increase market. H1…then H2…then H3. Volt40…then Volt20…then Volt10.
The Volt10 could be the mild EREV.
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+2
Sep 28th, 2009 (3:20 pm)DoNotEvenThinkAboutQuestioningMyJudgementOrElse
—————————————————————
That’s quite a name.
Can we just call you “Don” for short?
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Sep 28th, 2009 (3:21 pm)It it going to be a single charger at any given location?
Why not provide two plugs per charger?
What if you travel with friends (second EV)?
Or one plug breaks down, not to mention queueing issues.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (3:29 pm)If GM had closed up, I’d still be selling used cars with mo problems. In fact, used vehicles is 75% of the business now!
I give our prez credit for ‘trying’, but he is throwing money on the wring fires. The economy bubble popped because banks loaned money to people who couldn’t pay when their adjustable rates adjusted upward.
Those banks were idiots and they should have been allowed to fail, then, instead of throwing trillions into bailing out the bad banks, that money could have been used for job creation by rebuilding America’s manufacturing base.
A full blown, nationwide electric-charging infrastructure could have been built by now if it had not been wasted on a select few banks.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (3:34 pm)Dang this iPhone spellchecker!
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Sep 28th, 2009 (3:38 pm)Mitch,
To be fair you can find some pretty vile things happening at liberal democrat rallies also. No one condones some of these signs. I saw a lot of coverage on the 9-12 project by TV news and there were a lot more “normal” slogan signs than the ones cherry picked by this video. If all you want to do is show the “bad” side of the Tea Party gatherings you can always find something. You can also go and video ACORN and other liberal demonstrations and find plenty that is much more terrible than “Bury Obamacare with Kennedy”. Not a very nice thing to put on a sign. It would be OK if they had left off the Kennedy reference.
This video presents only one side of the argument and does not portray it fairly at that. I believe the people have a right to convene and say whatever they want to say either in words or on signage. No one controlled who came or what they said. I would hope in future events the organizers would ask that such signs be toned down a lot. We don’t need that sort of signs.
I don’t remember people protesting signs and what people said during George Bush’s tenure and there were some very vile things said on TV by so-call respectable people and demonstrations were generally “hate Bush” rallies. Now it is the liberal agenda that is being picketed and some don’t like it. Well, what you give out generally comes around to bite you where you sit.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (3:48 pm)Then your goose is cooked, more or less. Of course, you can always purchase an additional charger. GM just doesn’t need the added cost to every Volt for multiple charge cords or chargers with multiple plugs for the small percentage of people who might benefit from them. You will be able to purchase all you need at the friendly Chevrolet parts department. And it will be your expense, not built into the cost of my Volt for something I would not use. IMO.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (3:50 pm)You would think that would be a good thing for a dealer to supply at a minimum cost. It has been suggested prior to today.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (4:00 pm)The muddier the outlook on charging infrastructure, fast charge stations, grid upgrade, peak vs off peak, range anxiety, and at home wind turbine/solar use. The more practical EREV vehicles become.
Large companies try to project what they want people do to. Rarely do they realize that people are going to do what they want to do. Most owners of EV and EREV will go on an electric use slim down campaign in their homes. Using high efficiency lighting, lowering the thermostat in winter. Having just one TV on rather than 2 or 3. Upgrading to more efficient water heaters and refrigerators. The hardcore green crowd will install solar panels or micro turbines.
We that are willing to spend $30k-$40k on a new EV or EREV have a little going on upstairs. We are at least somewhat successful in life. We have made more right than wrong decisions over the years.
NGMCO, please produce 100,000 Volt per year and give the buyer a chance to follow through on the efficiency end of the equation. If people choose to purchase pure EV with 80 miles of range then they will have to work within a limited usable radius. Does anyone really plan on buying an EV for their daily 100 mile commute into the city?
It’s going to be a little while before battery technology reaches the point of providing an affordable 500 lb. unit with 400 mile range. Sweating the personal parking recharge bays, solar drive-in lots, and 4 minute super zappers isn’t worth spending time and money on.
=D~
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Sep 28th, 2009 (4:02 pm)With night time recharging, the utilities are going to increasing their revenue by well over a third without spending any real money. Most of it will be pure profit for them. Now, if they can sell the state regulatory agencies that they have to jack up rates to cover the cost of building out infrastructure they would make even more money. What do you think they are going to do? Most state regulatory agencies will rubber stamp that simply because it will be considered a “green” movement thing regardless of how it affects your cost to recharge. Sorry boys, but you have to realize you cannot use their “services” without them making money off of it. The solution is to do your own power generation as much as possible.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (4:07 pm)I am embracing it as much as I can two years before I will be able to purchase a Volt. I emailed my mayor this morning asking about city regulations on wind turbines and solar cells for home use. Haven’t heard back yet and don’t expect a quick response. Going to be interesting because I don’t think it has gotten on the agenda before. I asked about permits for charging stations also. I would really like to be able to afford a wind turbine and some solar cells. At my age (65) payback might never happen for me. Oh well. That is just the way it is.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (4:27 pm)We have this same discussion every other month or so……
It would not matter if I could go for 700 miles without a pee stop.
I have a wife that can’t,so it really does not make any difference!
Personally, I don’t see total range as a real problem from a marketing standpoint. It is the AER that GM should be pushing in their ads, and then stating that if you need to go further, No Problem! We have you covered!
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Sep 28th, 2009 (4:32 pm)Yes, Tom. That makes sense as long as you are committed to not using gasoline for commuting purposes. The same plan would fit nearly all workers if they were able to recharge at work. Then you would see fast adoption of BEVs for commuting and EREVs, plug-in hybrids and fuel efficient gas/diesel vehicles for cross country traveling for the near-term (10 – 20 years). An EREV would satisfy all these conditions but would be more costly than a BEV should be and the same for strictly gas/diesel vehicles. Personally, I want the EREV so it can be my primary vehicle all the time. But I can see the case for BEVs like the Nissan Leaf. Which I think is a real cute car and I want to see one up close. If it were a lot cheaper than the Volt, I might take the plunge, but it will not be.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (4:54 pm)If you are looking to wind generation, I suggest the “Down wind” types. You won’t have to worry about the blades slapping the pole/tower on high wind days. Also the Helical ones work well too.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (4:59 pm)It looks to me like an even uglier version of the Aptera.
And they have a whopping 10 pre-orders!!!!
It is hi-tech as well, using state of the art lead acid batteries.
And think of the fun driving it on the ice covered roads in January…..
If I was going to take this route, I would go with an NmG2 from Myers Motors. At least they are made in Ohio…..
http://www.myersmotors.com/
And yet I continue to wait for a Volt……………………..
NPNS
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Sep 28th, 2009 (5:11 pm)@ N Riley
You should talk to long term, well established, experienced solar system installers in your area instead. They are guaranteed to know the city solar regulations better than the city’s mayor or any of the city staff.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (5:20 pm)This entire argument is delusional. The “Great Recession” began in January of 2007. The “Financial Meltdown” occurred in September of 2008. Obama wasn’t elected President until November of 2008. In what bizarre reality is someone who wasn’t even around responsible for a financial crisis?
The idea seems to be that the Democrats supported subprime mortgages and that everything would have been just peachy had we not had a subprime mortgage problem. Well, guess again. Subprime mortgages were definitely not the root cause of the financial meltdown. More like maybe 5%. The other 95% was due to other forms of mortgages like option arms which were marketed to wealthy people, and, more importantly, a host of leveraged investments including derivatives and commercial real estate. In case you haven’t noticed, subprime defaults never ended up being that high and they’ve already been flushed out of the system. Basically what you had was a giant asset bubble fueled by ill timed tax cuts, a Federal Reserve that thought markets were self organizing and self regulating, Asian export countries recycling American dollars, and huge deficit spending — the first and last compliments of Mr. Bush and Mr. McCain.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (5:28 pm)Is this the same dealer that said I needed an oil change, when I just had one done less than 100 miles ago, in response to my telling them that my door key wasn’t working properly? Keystone cops isn’t in it.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (5:34 pm)I have no problem with you doing anything at all.
Those sound like great road trips a la Chevy Chase et. al or Steve Martin and John Candy.
However, since you “like to spend less time driving and more time at my destination”, may I humbly suggest that you at least also consider train or air travel for long distances?
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Sep 28th, 2009 (5:42 pm)Generally speaking you’re right that every financial crisis — including this one — occurs because banks loan money to people who can’t pay the money back.
But the reasons for the meltdown are more complex than bankers making a few bad decisions. That happened for sure. But the other half of the problem was on the demand side. First the Federal Reserve dramatically cut interest rates which encouraged financial institutions to borrow short and lend long — which lead to way too much leverage, with companies borrowing 97 cents out of every investment dollar. Second, the Republican Congress and the Clinton Administration repealed the Glass Steageall Act, essentially allowing companies to use exotic financial instruments like credit derivative swaps to gamble rather than invest. Third, the Bush Administration didn’t understand the danger of an asset bubble fueled by China and the other Asian exporters recycling their export dollars. Fourth, the Bush Administration cut taxes while engaging in two wars, which drove up deficit spending, thereby pumping even more money into an overheated economy. Fifth and finally, the Bush Administration and the Federal Reserve didn’t exercise any regulatory oversight on the markets because they mistakenly thought that financial markets were self organizing and self regulating.
I really didn’t like bailing out Wall Street. That was extremely distasteful. But the fact is that if you don’t have a functioning banking system you don’t have an economy. Also, I’d point out that this bail out is ending pretty well — the money is being paid back and the government is earning a profit. So at the end of the day it will have more money to build out the electric grid you’re talking about.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (5:56 pm)Aren’t the chargers more important for the placebo effect? If you remember the study Lyle posted, when there was only a base charger drivers only used 0% to 50% of the available range. When the second charger was put in, drivers used 50% to 100% of the range, despite the fact that they rarely used the second charger. IOW merely knowing the charger existed relieved their anxiety and allowed them more driving freedom.
My guess is that not many people will actually use the chargers. But one great thing about a test like this is that you learn something important and interesting regardless of the outcome.
The other interesting question raised is whether it would be more cost effective for the government to subsidize EREVs or put in charging stations, though the issues are more complex than this.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (6:05 pm)Charging is best done when the car is at rest. A little fun facts about cars:
Autos are at rest 92% of the time, therefore 92% of the time and locations of auto rest are good charging opportunities.
The average auto in the U.S. is worth about $5,000.
For every car there are 5 parking spots including home, street and parking lots, waitng for that car (average population city of 50k will have 250k parking spots)
The average cost per parking spot is $12.500 (think about the cost of your two car garage and parking structures)
The average size of a parking space including half the width required for entry into the spot is 300sq. ft.
We provide 1500sq ft of space for each $5000 car that is at rest 92% of the time, at a cost of $62,500.
We have just passed the 1 car per person mark in The U.S. In the 1950s it was one car for every 10 persons. Today it’s over 300 million registered vehicles.
and my favorite:
If aliens were hovering over New York, they would come to the conclusion based on percentage of the resources provided, that autos were the dominent life form on earth and that humans were fuel sources that were inserted and the expelled from the life form when used up.
From: The High Cost of Free Parking..
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Sep 28th, 2009 (6:07 pm)Well said.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (7:09 pm)In my country much desert. Too may far for fill the gas. Need much big tank for gas to drive fast to oasis of tree and beat camel.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (7:21 pm)Also need one GPS machine. Too musch lost many time. Then walk for the gases. The small tanks for to no good.
Ride sheeps sometime.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (7:30 pm)“.My guess is that not many people will actually use the chargers..”
_______________
Yes, I think this is mostly correct.
Your Monday thru Friday commute crowd will probably rarely touch a remote charging station. I think the vast majority of commuters will pass on an EV if they can’t make the round trip without a topoff. But the Sat/Sun crowd could have more use for convenience charges at the malls and the like when driving patterns are more random.
/Although, one subject (rarely discussed) is that topping of your lithiums more frequently could extend the life of the battery.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (7:36 pm)lol. I hear you. But when I go, I go with 4. It is actually cheaper than air travel. Especially now when they charge for luggage.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (7:37 pm)I pee on the toll booths in New York. It saves time.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (7:38 pm)You are very funny. That was good.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (7:53 pm)The third country for BP is Australia, it has a population density like Canada and has vast land area. Any more issues?
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Sep 28th, 2009 (8:02 pm)Lyle, Good job on another interview.
If you’ve got access, it might be interesting to ask Volvo if (why) they’ve passed on their plug in series hybrid design in favor of plug in series/parallel hybrid.
Volvo C30 ReCharge Concept
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTVOB3ZUnos
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Sep 28th, 2009 (8:20 pm)“To be clear, I don’t know that government involvement in the initial deployment of charging stations is completely necessary. ”
____________________________________________________________
The government is working with the utilities to insure adequate supply of electricity and plan the new Smart Grid. Smart Grid technology will allow the EV owner to plug and charge when the drag on the grid will not cause a brownout. Charging stations that are intelligent will be able to determine best times to charge the battery; say at lower rates from the electric company, DOE has grant funded eTec the contract for installing charging stations in the five cities where Nissan is making its entry in the U.S. next year with its Leaf BEV.
eTec will be doing a study which will give DOE data on grid load demand. Dominion Power mentioned in the previous article is doing likewise as are other power companies co-operating with DOE. The information will be considered in the rebuilding on our electric grid for the future economy.
All this activity with respect to renewing the grid comes at the right time; it is generating a lot of new jobs.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (8:36 pm)Thanks for the link, V=IR. It is interesting that Solar-City is owned by are cousins of Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who happens to be the companies chairman. A smart move to sell more Tesla vehicles.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (8:46 pm)Greg,
Nissan is targeting five urban cities. For example, Seattle will receive its 1,000 vehicles and eTec will install and then monitor charging stations around the Seattle area to determine such factors as which charging points are used more fequently than others and why. Careful study of those locations that are not being used will be included. They may then be able to determine why those points are not used and find a way that they can be utilized better, or in the end deselected from future construction sites. The deployment of charging points will not cover the stretch between cities; it will only cover the immediate area it allow people to travel into the city for work, shopping, dinning. or entertainment.These activities give them sufficient charging times.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (8:58 pm)carcust1,
That’s some really good thinking.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (9:32 pm)Really thorough interview Lyle.
The fact that to study what “does not work” really helps to know what other approaches are clearly better.
Sometimes it is mentioned that the use of 120 volt recharging would be what some posters might need to utilize.
One thing I learned when I had helped out the local Electric Vehicle Club here in Austin (four Summers ago) when they held an EV gathering at one of the local theaters that was showing “Who Killed the Electric Car”;
I brought my Winnebago to provide a “cool room” as the parking lot air temperature was at 105F, and the newly paved perfectly-black parking lot surface itself was 142 degrees.
It was a living hell out there, yet all members stayed out there in that purgatory to assist the extremely intrigued moviegoers to begin to understand EV’s. All manner of historical “factory original” EV’s as well as impressively constructed “conversions” were all on hand for the public to become entranced by their uniqueness and very reality. (“They do exist!” was one comment I heard).
At the same time, one of the owners of one of the EV’s requested to see if there was sufficient power reserves from the Onan Generator (I had just “minor” overhauled it with new controlling-electronics), net of the 18 amps demand of the roof air conditioner.
I let his variable-charger draw down the wattage remaining in terms of net voltage remaining down to 110 volts, (I estimated the amps draw to be about 12 amps for the EV), while derating the 4kw genset by 15% due to the excessive heat.
The charge was maintained only for about 3 or 4 hours, and later, the owner reported that during the trip home, that short charge “Didn’t do anything at all” as displayed on his Wattmeter/Voltmeter of his EV.
The lesson here might be that GM (from yesterdays’ post), and as well as from the post describing GM’s commentary that a hydrogen fueling infrastructure would be needed for hydrogen fueled vehicles, adding all these topics together from over these several days, gets me to think that GM might far prefer the 240 volt charging if it is available (and ought to be MADE available). The faster charge rate might do two things far better: (return power faster and possibly increase cycle life, and, return power faster for the sheer practicality of it) being “ready to go” sooner if needed).
And, that 240 volt charging stations wisely placed (as revealed from research), are going to be firstly needed for those customers who live both in apartment residences as well as Condo’s. The economics of this need can be made to be understood more clearly and fairly (sharing costs partially between customer and utility), in a more clearly understood set of priorities. These priorities focus firstly for all the categories of needs as described thoroughly above in Lyle’s really impressive interview.
Nowhere else can you get this valuable information. Nowhere. Thanks Lyle, once again.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (9:38 pm)But Australians are concentrated in a few regions along the coast. Then again, I still don’t see it working there. It may work great in Israel, but I don’t think it will beat out quick charging in most countries*.
*When and if it becomes available, of course. We have EREV in the interim.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:01 pm)When we stop spending $25 billion a month for foreign oil (in April $25.2 billion even at today’s low gasoline prices), that money will be funding into the local economy which will result in increased income and therefore more tax money even if taxes are not increased. That will go a long way to reduce the deficit!
Today’s article demonstrates the direction the country is headed . All this activity is generating jobs and keeping people employed. GM has reopened one its closed plants and hired back laid -off workers. When the Chevy Volt is released to the masses, we will be able to review the recent past and see how this move to an electric economy brought us back from the recession this administration was strapped with.
All of you out there that crab about government spending and new taxes, have the opinion that government spending has turned into a gift and that the loans given to GM and Chrysler were a waste of your tax dollars. Ask any American automotive worker what he thinks about the so called Bail- Out. As far as the TASK money given to GM and Chrysler, IMHO, the investment by the government was meaningful and well spent: however, I judge that what was done for Wall Street should have been down with certain guarantees so that what they did will not happen again. We need better regulation over Wall Street than exists today.
The grant funding that the DOE is paying to eTec is for a study of the effect of EV deployment on electricity supply. This is part of a large ongoing activity to redesign an antiquated electric grid which even today uses devices design by Edison. Other small countries have a far more advanced electric distribution system than ours. The nation as a whole has ignored its shortcomings in many areas; the grid being one that now needs to be repaired and upgraded in light of the large demand from EV’s
Bush dismantled a lot of the Executive Branch of our government and regulations intended to protect the nation and its citizens. He ignored the Kioto Protocol under the premise that we needed to protect our industries while permitting them to pollute our atmosphere and waterways far more than the legislation that his father passed through Congress and signed into law. Younger Bush re-interpreted the laws watering them down so business would thrive but at the expense of clean air and water causing thousands of sick people unable to get a court determination against those industries.
On Obama’s side of the slate is an effective plan to keep the economy going; to get automotive jobs back, and put other people back to work at new jobs based on an electric economy. To reverse the recession, we are in won’t be easy and from every indication will be gradual and is threatened by investors still playing the same games that got us into the recession. Among all this depressing discussion, Obama offers a light at the end of the tunnel and has intelligently plotted a course for the nation To bring the country to the front and lead the world out of the recession, pending peak oil, exploding development in countries such as China and India whose huge populations will surely affect oil pricing that even if peak oil were a mythe would insure the price oil heading well above 2008’s +$4.00 price! We live in a country once know as the land of plenty; only today, it no longer is the land a plenty. Obama is forging a new direction for the nation, one designed to utilize resources that are free such as wind and solar, use energy in more effective ways, and rebuild the infrastructure of this nation (not just charging infrastructure).
We all need to stop the political bickering and start making positive suggestions for improving the situation we live in today. A lot of the discussion in this blog is positive! I have seen many good ideas here, and constructive discussion of issues at hand. Lyle allows us to get involved in an exciting activity. Whatever your interest in Electric Transportation, this site offersw plenty of information. It is looked at by GM executives, Obama’s administration, and many other people in positions that will make a difference in your future. So lets all discuss the issues intelligently, discuss the pros and cons of the topics presented here, and leave the politics out of it.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:07 pm)I loved the Drive-in-Theaters! Brings back fun times during my younger days. Those places would be great places to find charging stations, especially the Drive-in-Theaters; sneak up to the speaker in stealth mode, plug-in the juice tube, munch on the popcorn and goodies, getting re-energized while enjoying a movie. Wow! The good old days are coming back!
Happy trails to you until we meet again
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:13 pm)Same voltage (240V) but higher current (90 amps), though the current can be adjusted lower. They did say from that if the demand starts to pick up for EVs with the standard J1772 that the Volt (and other EVs, like the Leaf) is using, then they will add support for it. So for the only new EV out there is Tesla, so there is no need yet. Eventually Tesla might move to the J1772 connector too.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:21 pm)Yes, if you want a road trip experience on par with an ICE, you need an BEV with 200+ miles of range and/or at least 100kW chargers (this will require 300-400V chargers, something the J1772 spec doesn’t support, which I don’t think is that good of an idea, esp if BEV adoption moves more quickly than anticipated). I’ve seen Roadsters do roadtrips using only the RV connectors as a power source (~10kW) and they seem to be a decent road trip experience, so even 40kW should be enough provided you have a 200+ mile battery. 100 miles is perfect for commuting but not really enough for road trips.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (10:25 pm)It will all be measured on the number of people who move into and out of poverty, what the balance of payments is, on day the politician moves into office vs the day he leaves. Clinton did an excellent job in those two areas during his administration. If we look at the dismantling of the Executive Branch during Bush’s administration with its reinterpretation of his father’s legislation, The Clean Air Act, and other regulatory agencies like consumer Protection, and EPA, Obama has a long way to go. Oh, and some progress has already been made in those areas. Bush No.1 gave us a good Clean Air Act. His son allowed industry to pollute many of our waterways. Just trying to raise a few of the good things Democratic and Republican parties have achieved over the last couple of decades. Really didn’t want to go political.
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Sep 28th, 2009 (11:11 pm)eh, scratch that roll cage thing for now, I’ll have to look into that some more
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Sep 29th, 2009 (12:18 am)I agree that Voltec is what’s needed for right now, but I commend these guys for always looking forward. It was always meant to be a stepping stone technology.
Here’s what’s next: Fuel cells for petrol!
http://www.efcf.com/reports/E04.pdf
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Sep 29th, 2009 (4:46 am)Interesting race towards the electric vehicle. Can’t wait to see the results
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Sep 29th, 2009 (4:50 am)Me neither.
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Sep 29th, 2009 (5:51 am)Some very good points here. Let’s look to the future.
It’s the year 2012 and the electric company finds that EV owners are charging during the day. Edison will either need to do some quick upgrading, raise the day rate, or they can lower the cost of night charging. People are going to do what they want to do. Not what a mega corporation wants them to do. Make it preferable to charge off peak.
As far as recharging at the workplace. What is it worth to an employee to be able to say they have a recharge dock at work? It may not be a big deal now, but wait a few years and look again.
=D~
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Sep 29th, 2009 (7:14 am)Yes, the “when and if” is what swapping deals with. BP is installing a working infrastructure in Israel at the same time we are debating what to do.
That is why Shai wants to do Australia, to quiet the critics. It will work and he even did a cost analysis for the U.S. The big countries will need to see if it works with the small countries first. That only makes sense. Like big companies, big countries move slowly and are risk adverse. That’s why small companies eventually kick the butts of big companies. No risk, no reward. That’s the way is has always been, always will be.
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Sep 29th, 2009 (8:08 am)The day time charging is feasable as well. And there will be never problems of doing that even with existing power generation and distribution systems. In case 200 mln EV cars would be on the US roads it would give us 3% of power consumtion. Last year power consumtion of North America decreased by 6%.
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Sep 29th, 2009 (8:33 am)There are several solutions for that situation. Biger charging stations at the mals can be equiped with screans indicating power availability and timing. On other hand it would be rational intalling charging point in vicinity of 10 kV substation or just intall 10 kV substation ($50 000) on top of charging station and be able to charge 30 EV at the same time. 10 kV cable supports standard up to 3 MW power consumtion or generation.
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Sep 29th, 2009 (9:37 am)Curious that there aren’t any test cities that experience harsh winters.
Chicago would be a good place to try it out. We have summers with 90+ degree heat and winters with the occasional sub-zero temps. If you want to see how well your charging stations can withstand environmental conditions, Chicago would be a good place to test.
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Sep 29th, 2009 (9:56 am)The real question is – How long will the primetime as we know it continue ?
Peak Oil will make sure the idea of prime time will change …
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