Sep 23

Zenn Motors CEO Announces Change in Company Plans, Says EESU Development Remains On Target

 

Zenn Motors is the Toronto-based electric car company that was founded by Ian Clifford.

To date the company has only produced low volumes of low speed neighborhood electric vehicles, but had been planning to introduce a highway capable electric car called the cityZENN.

Zenn has based its future and that car on a partnership with EEStor, which is known to be secretly working on mass producing a new type of battery that would surpass lithium ion in every way. Its far cheaper to produce, several times more energy dense, can be recharged in minutes and has a functionally unlimited lifetime.

Zenn has taken incrementally greater ownership stakes in EEStor based on milestones for producing that battery or EESU. At this point no batteries have ever been publicly demonstrated, but Zenn holds a 10.7% stake.

Clifford has just announced that his company would no longer be pursuing mass production of the cityZENN car.  I had the chance to discuss this with him.

“Our decisions regarding cityZENN continue to evolve in response to advancements in electric vehicle deployment across the industry since we announced cityZENN a couple of years ago,” said Clifford.

He notes the plethora of new EV manufacturers that have exploded on the scene including Tesla, Fisker, and Think, fresh with billions of dollars of government aid.

“Why people would want ZENN to become another OEM is beyond me,” he said.

Instead Zenn will focus on producing electric drivetrains called ZENNergy Drive systems that will be EEStor-powered and would be supplied to automakers.

“Integration of ZENNergy Drive in Tier 1 and OEM product has always been our long term objective,” says Clifford. “The cityZENN program was always designed as a proof of concept for ZENNergy Drive.”

“Now that virtually every OEM around the world has announced some form of battery EV or plug-in hybrid program it makes sense for the Company to focus entirely on ZENNergy Drive’s unique value proposition to maximize ZMC’s penetration throughout the industry, working in conjunction with Tier 1 and OEM’s around the world,” he said.

He is enthusiastic about the potential of that business model.

“Leveraging ZENNergy Drive, powered by EEStor, across the industry is such a massive opportunity,” he says. “Last year 48,000,000 new cars built fit within our 1400 kg exclusivity on EEStor’s technology.”

Clifford denies that there has been any material change in EEStor’s development and assembly of EESUs.

“With respect to the anticipated timeline of EEStor’s technology,” said Clifford.  “EEStor has publicly stated that they expect to complete initial component testing in September 2009 and deliver functional technology to ZMC by the end of the year.”

He clarifies that although EEStor will do component testing in September they may or may not reveal those results publicly.

“With respect to the initial Component testing, it is up to EEStor to announce the results,” he said.  “It should be noted that while EEStor publicly stated their intention to complete component testing, they did not indicate if they would publicly disclose those results. Component testing is not a milestone in our technology agreement with EEStor.”

This entry was posted on Wednesday, September 23rd, 2009 at 9:59 am and is filed under Battery, General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 140


  1. 1
    Jackson

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:07 am)

    Mr. Clifford, if you’re reading this:

    While there has been a lot of skepticism of EEStor’s claims, based on it’s tightly-sealed secrecy, most fans of electric vehicles would welcome the technology.

    I would like to suggest that ZENN consider supplying “buffer” surge energy cells for cars that use other kinds of battery, such as Li/Ion and NimH. A small “surge” battery would allow an EREV’s engine to supply a true average of driving load, better regeneration, etc; using a much smaller EESU. Traditional hybrids such as Ford’s could probably use this same size to replace it’s batteries.

    Doing this would allow an almost overnight penetration over many makes, using a much more modest manufacturing volume than would be needed for an entire drivetrain providing the total power storage capacity of a vehicle. This would allow your overall capacity to ramp up more quickly. Such a car might have a logo somewhere similar to the “intel inside” sticker on many makes of computer.

    I hope you will give this idea consideration.


  2. 2
    Rashiid Amul

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:07 am)

    How interesting. I saw the City car as a niche market anyway.
    This is good news, IMO.


  3. 3
    SteveK9

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:11 am)

    It’s a good idea, although not original. Check out Maxwell Technologies (they’ve been developing ultracaps for at least 20 years).

    http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/news-events/release.asp?PRID=226


  4. 4
    Jackson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:14 am)

    No, not original; but if EEStor is real, it would be much smaller than any competing ultracapacitor. It could be sandwiched into nearly any electric vehicle concept out there, including Volt, without requiring extensive redesign (except for the controller and software, of course).


  5. 5
    N Riley

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:21 am)

    Mr Clifford is betting that other OEMs will be interested in purchasing his company’s drive train instead of developing their own. He may be right, but if he is not then Zenn Motor Company is left out of the game. It would seem that it would still be wise to produce a line of vechicles of their own at the same time as marketing the drive system. IMO.


  6. 6
    PeteVE

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:22 am)

    this is smart from a company stand point, but common. the public WANTS / NEEDS verification that they are not all talk. ok, _I_ want verification!!! i’m a peon, yes, but show us that we should believe.

    someone stated they would show us by the end of september. and now the details of whom said what are being pushed around. stop with the he said / she said already.

    arg!!! i want to believe.


  7. 7
    N Riley

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:24 am)

    I agree with SteveK9 that this is a good idea, Jackson. Zenn needs to approach the whole avenue of possibilities with its battery technology. Assuming, of course, that it actually works. Which I hope so completely.


  8. 8
    Noel Park

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:25 am)

    If the thing works, I don’t see why Zenn should have to do anything. If they have a substantial equity position, why not just license it out to the OEMs and clip the coupons?

    Quite honestly, I would a lot rather have a Zenn/Eestor licensed, GM manufactured, driveline in my car than have the hardware sourced from Zenn.


  9. 9
    N Riley

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:28 am)

    I don’t see the EESU capable Zenn car as a niche market if the technology actually works and you can get 5 minute recharges from standard plugs. That would enable a BEV to cross the country as well as a gas-driven car. There would not be any range anxiety remaining in their development. Just give it 150 – 300 miles of range and 5 minute recharges and they could match any ICE or EREV.


  10. 10
    nasaman

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:30 am)

    You’re right, Rashiid …..it is potentially good news & good to get an update on EEstor. But the question still remains as to whether EEstor is TOO good to be true. As Lyle describes it above, EEstor plans on “mass producing a new type of battery that would surpass lithium ion in every way. Its far cheaper to produce, several times more energy dense, can be recharged in minutes and has a functionally unlimited lifetime.” WOW! I certainly hope they succeed!


  11. 11
    N Riley

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:32 am)

    SteveK9,

    The Maxwell ultra capacitors seem suited to heavy equipment use such as 18-wheelers, trains and buses. Is that correct? I wonder if they have tried to design smaller ones that would fit into cars and light pickups?


  12. 12
    lektriktadpole

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:34 am)

    Great new business model. Too bad they don’t have a product to sell. If EESTOR does come through, Zenn’s exclusivity agreement will be worth many fortunes. But other automakers will not buy an entire drive system from an inexperienced and small volume producer. Zenn will end up as nothing more than a distributor of EESTOR “hyper”caps. Or they will end up bankrupt and bought up or just plain bought up. The Big Boys simply cannot risk the disasters that could arise from making their products dependent on a supplier without a proven track record and an already developed and proven infrastructure.


  13. 13
    MuddyRoverRob

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:35 am)

    Absolutely.

    Another press release isn’t good enough.

    An independantly verified public test is the only way forward on EEStor, anything less is magic unicorn horns.


  14. 14
    Bob Armstrong

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:39 am)

    Just wondering…if EEStor is real, why build combinations of Li/Ion and EEStore rather than pure EEStor drive trains? Are there ways that Li/Ion is superior to EEStor? Would the combo get to market faster? I can see the advantages of EEStor (if it’s real) but I don’t see the advantage of a combination.
    thanks


  15. 15
    MuddyRoverRob

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:40 am)

    Even if the EEStor cell turns out to be real you are not going to get a significant charge from a standard outlet in 5 minutes.

    You STILL have the every-EV issue of non-existant fast charge stations.

    Don’t get me wrong, if they actually work it would be fantastic, but it isn’t the complete solution. It WOULD however make the business case for deploying fast charge stations much stronger.


  16. 16
    Dan

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:42 am)

    Reminder: not a single EESU has ever been demonstrated. If such a unit existed, there is no good reason not to demonstrate it. It could be inside a tamper proof box (to avoid inspection), with only the connectors visible. Its weight and energy capacity could be tested by a third party engineering firm without inspecting the inside of the box. If successful, EEstor would receive as much financing as they could ever want. The founder would be fabulously wealthy. Instead, they are a tiny operation.

    Given the benefits and lack of downside, and since they still have not demonstrated a single EESU, there is no reason to believe even a single EESU exists.

    It’s time to stop believing in fairy tales, even if they are exciting fairy tales.


  17. 17
    N Riley

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:43 am)

    I agree completely with licensing the technology on the basis of trusting the manufacturer of the hardware. It would take a lot longer to penetrate the market with Zenn doing the manufacturing than if the OEMs were doing it. Zenn many very well make as much money with licensing as with manufacturing considering all the added cost of being a manufacturer.


  18. 18
    Eco

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:44 am)

    it is almost incomprehensible how much this device means. If it works to store energy on a utility level scale, the entire global warming policy debate changes.

    The only reason I am very skeptical, is because of the scale of havoc (good, but havoc nonetheless) this will bring upon our current way of thinking.

    the mobile application will be fun, but an afterthought.

    by the way A123 was supposed to go public today.


  19. 19
    MuddyRoverRob

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:45 am)

    The thinking is that for at least the first while an EEStor cell (assuming it actually exists) will be very expensive.

    So use them for the fast charge bits as a buffer, brake regen for example, and use the ‘relatively’ inexpensive Li-Ion cells for the main bank.


  20. 20
    N Riley

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:45 am)

    Agreed. See Noel Park’s comment (#5) above. Your comment gives a little more “floor” under his comment.


  21. 21
    nasaman

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:46 am)

    “Quite honestly, I would a lot rather have a Zenn/Eestor licensed, GM manufactured, driveline in my car than have the hardware sourced from Zenn.”

    I fully agree, Noel! ….And I’m sure most car buyers would also. Large volume automobile design, test & manufacturing is a complex, high-risk business and I’m not so sure Clifford’s experience —limited to neighborhood & city type vehicles— isn’t scaring him away from it.


  22. 22
    Jeff

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:46 am)

    IMHO…Zenn would only get kudos for believing in the “unicorn” if it is real. In other words, Zenn is just another investor regardless of their product…EV powertrains are not a new discovery.

    Zenn still would not have the production capability to meet demand for powertrains using EEStor devices. Of course, the government could sell (give) Zenn some of the GM and Chrysler idled manufacturing plants since the taxpayers are heavily invested in them.


  23. 23
    Jeff M

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:49 am)

    Infrastructure would still have to catch up though to make it cross country with 5 minute recharges… the 5 minute recharges are not by plugging into the dryer plug but more likely another EEStor device being recharged over more than 5 minutes and then a device to device discharge.

    Build it (EEStor’s device) however and they will come (infrastructure)…


  24. 24
    N Riley

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:51 am)

    Assuming they are for real, I also assume they are getting enough financing from their few investors to do the development of the equipment. They don’t seem to be very busy trying to sucker in investors. I will say that much for them.


  25. 25
    Mark A

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:52 am)

    If it works, they’ll go public with the results. They’ll want everyone to know.

    If it doesn’t, look for more hemming and hawing in the press.


  26. 26
    N Riley

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:52 am)

    Sometimes a little havoc thrown at us is good for us as human beings. It makes us work harder to survive and “grow” as a species.


  27. 27
    dagwood55

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:53 am)

    +1. The Zenn logo isn’t going to impress anybody.


  28. 28
    N Riley

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:56 am)

    As have many companies in the past and more will in the future. It is just the nature of the beast. I wish them luck. We could all use some good news for a change. This could be the best news to hit the world in decades. Maybe since the end of WWII.


  29. 29
    DaV8or

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:03 am)

    No product, no money. No surprise. To develop a new highway capable car cost a fair amount of money. Money that is not coming in from the puny sales of the neighborhood cars. So the strategy for Zenn survival is, hunker down, spend as little money as possible and wait for EESTOR.

    Don’t wait too long. If all else fails, modify the neighborhood car to be a deluxe golf cart and sell it to golfers as well as folks in Florida, etc.


  30. 30
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:08 am)

    N. Riley, I am refering to the city car. It is like an NEV. The N stands for Niche. ;)

    I don’t think anyone would take a city car cross country.


  31. 31
    EclecticDan

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:11 am)

    It doesn’t add up. If this technology exists, it is a game changer. Neigh, a world changer. Why are they taking years to make golf carts with bucket seats? It’s small potatoes. This move toward making drive-trains makes more sense… but it’s just silly contract gymnastics between Zenn and EEstor. If this tech was real, Ford, GM, Toyota, or Honda would buy out the Zenn contract and rule the future of the automobile.

    Frankly, these guys aren’t worth our time. Until they show a functional prototype, they should be placed in the same category as Zap: People who prey on green investors and deliver shoddy products or none at all. If it smells like a scam…


  32. 32
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:11 am)

    But the question still remains as to whether EEstor is TOO good to be true.

    Ah, Nasaman, and that is the rub, isn’t it? I sincerely hope they are, but I have my doubts.


  33. 33
    N Riley

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:23 am)

    Yes, Rashiid. I understood you were talking about the neighborhood car version. I expanded on that theme with thinking that with this technology Zenn would no longer be limited to just the city or the neighborhood. They could develop vehicles capable of crossing the country. Or selling the license to produce such vehicles to other OEMs.


  34. 34
    N Riley

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:26 am)

    As do we all Rashiid. Doubts are like Christmas trees with no lights whereas hope is like Christmas tree with a thousand lights. Hope shines through the branches to make a wondrous display whereas doubt causes so many shadows that you can not see all of the beauty before you. I want to believe in hope in the case of EEStor.


  35. 35
    SteveK9

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:30 am)

    I’m not really well-informed. A friend of mine got a job there in ~ 1982. Back then they were using the ultracaps to launch high-velocity projectiles (a military project).

    I think others have commented on this site that ultracaps for power surges are not really necessary as the Li-ion batteries can deliver those surges without damage. I think this was DaveK or DonC or …

    So, real engineering analysis might suggest these are not all that beneficial.

    I think everyone recognizes that if the device delivers the performance claimed it would supplant Li-ion technology in short order. I’ve read their patent and unless they are making things up, the theoretical potential is there at least. But, as (many) others have commented that does not speak directly to a practical commercial device.


  36. 36
    Rashiid Amul

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:30 am)

    Sorry, N. Riley.

    I misunderstood. I agree with you. Let’s hope this technology is real and works as…….as what? As leaked? As rumored? As……….?


  37. 37
    CaptJackSparrow

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:31 am)

    Their drive train sounds interesting. I wonder if they’ll sell to DIY’rs also. This would be great if they did. Depending on the specs & price, i’d buy one just to test.
    I wish Zenn all the luck.


  38. 38
    Jason M. Hendler

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:31 am)

    This is a brilliant strategy by Zenn. Their NEV is the least viable application for BEV propulsion systems, so they are wize to sell to all the other automakers with far more viable products.


  39. 39
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:32 am)

    Well said, my friend. I hope so too. It could change everything and fairly quickly. Time will tell.


  40. 40
    Jason M. Hendler

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:33 am)

    A123 just upped their estimate for capital to be raised by their IPO, so they must be getting strong interest. I suspect many of the foreign battery makers are buying a stake.


  41. 41
    N Riley

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:34 am)

    As whatever? How long over due is EEStor anyway? One or two years? It is about time for them to put up or shut up. IMO.


  42. 42
    Jason M. Hendler

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:34 am)

    This is really the best strategy for Zenn to quickly turn a profit on their tech, before another tech competes or replaces it. Zenn really had the least viable application for a BEV propulsion system – the NEV. Now, they will sell to any / all automakers with far more viable products.


  43. 43
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:35 am)

    Right on Noel. At that point, it come down to trust.
    GM is everywhere. I know I can get my vehicle fixed. Where is Zenn?
    Canada.


  44. 44
    N Riley

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:38 am)

    You are right. Patents are for designs. Actually making the hardware work usually becomes more of a problem than designing the hardware in the first place. Plus, I am sure that with each successive in-house test, the original design is a little further from the current version of the technology. I do wish them luck. Just think of all the wonderful uses a device like this could bring to the world. It would be nearly as big as harnessing fusion power. Well, not really, but it would be big in itself.


  45. 45
    John S.

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:44 am)

    In a related story: Chef Boy Ardee has announced that they have developed a canned pasta that can also be used to fuel your Audi diesel. Costco and Sams Club to sell by the case.

    EESTOR is a not so funny joke. All talk and no proof. After 8 years of discovery, they still have not shown anything to the public, nothing! Please PROVE me wrong and that you actually have something.


  46. 46
    N Riley

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:47 am)

    GM has said in the past that they have had discussions with both Zenn and EEStor. I would hope that they would have an inside track at making a purchase bid for either or both of the companies if EESU are found to actually work. Of course, GM may not be able to afford EEStor in that case, but could afford to purchase Zenn. I would assume that would be the most likely target of a take-over bid by a number of OEMs. Of course, EXXON could just spend a little of their cash and lock up the development. I would hope the government would stop such a purchase. But who knows. Campaign donations work wonders today as well as in the past.


  47. 47
    RSBaker

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:01 pm)

    This could work if EEstor is everything they say it is. ZENNergy Drive System would be like an Electric car Windows operating system to the OEM HP, Dell, Acer Automobile manufacturers.


  48. 48
    Rashiid Amul

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:05 pm)

    That would be a disaster, N. Riley. I strongly believe in free enterprise, but this might be one case where I could suspend my belief. I don’t want any oil company buying and burying this technology (again, assuming this is real).


  49. 49
    Jorge

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:06 pm)

    I believe that if EEStor were real GM or some other big company would just buy them out. The reason why it hasn’t happened is because nobody believes them.


  50. 50
    Jorge

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:15 pm)

    On a separate note if EEStor doesn’t come up with a working model, (which I personally believe they won’t), conspiracy theorists will say that big oil got to EEStor and stopped them. Come to think of it I should set up a website. Might even get a book deal.
    “How Big Oil Foiled Energy Independence”


  51. 51
    Bill Marsh

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:17 pm)

    LOL, God help us if it’s a Windows OS for that car. Much better if it was a Mac or Linux…..


  52. 52
    Greg Simpson

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:25 pm)

    Neigh is for horses. :)

    Not worth our time is particularly true of this announcement. Whether or not Zenn decides to make a car has little to do with the prospects of EEStor ever producing an EESU.


  53. 53
    dagwood55

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:31 pm)

    Doubts are more like the woodpeckers in a Christmas tree. You can deny the woodpeckers are there but you can hear them and you should know that what they’re doing is simply trying to eat the bugs beneath the bark that are actually killing the tree.


  54. 54
    Mike D

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:31 pm)

    “Instead Zenn will focus on producing electric drivetrains called ZENNergy Drive systems that will be EEStor-powered and would be supplied to automakers.”

    Eff yeah! This in my opinion is way better than those ugly city cars. If Zenn is real, i’d rather they be working on this!!

    ALSO: Isn’t the picture for this thread kind of ironic? He’s proudly standing in front of what is now all garbage.


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    Texas

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:31 pm)

    “He clarifies that although EEStor will do component testing in September they may or may not reveal those results publicly”

    Which begs the question: If a tree falls in a forest and no one is nearby to hear it does it make a sound?

    How much more crap can they spew? changing strategies on the fly, saying things are not milestones and they would not make it public, even though it would get the world to sit up and listen, etc.

    One week to go! Come on EEstor (assuming you have Internet to read this – you still haven‘t figured out how to get a website up and running), would you really hold back the announcement if the verification was successful? No, I doubt that as well. Yes, most of us know you were just making silly lies because you did not expect the interview to hit the web but we were hoping you would give us something. Something to keep the last traces of your credibility alive.

    Anyway, I look forward to reading this business school case study in the future. It’s going to be very interesting!

    As I posted yesterday:

    “This is actually a good idea. They have the right to sell the EESU and can make far more money just doing that then they will with their crappy EV designs. They can concentrate on the drivetrain or just signing contracts and taking in money. Very nice!


  56. 56
    Jackson

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:33 pm)

    “I don’t see the advantage of a combination.”

    First, as Muddy points out, any EESU is likely to be very expensive in the beginning, even if it works as advertised. An initial production capacity could produce maybe 50 “surge” buffers with the same amount of material as would be needed for one “All ZENN” powertrain. It would also relieve Zenn of having to immediately produce the controller or motor.

    Second, while Lithium Ion batteries can produce enough power to meet most driving requirements, their formulation has to be more expensive than a Li/Ion chemistry used simply as storage.

    Third, the lifetime of any Li/Ion battery is measured by the number of cycles it can reliably sustain, while an ultracapcitor can theoretically support an unlimited number of cycles. If you are charging and discharging the battery pack once or twice daily that’s one thing. If you are discharging and charging, discharging and charging over and over again as you drive, that’s something else. To use Li/Ion for regeneration, you have to expose the pack to a large number of partial cycles, and limit the depth of storage available for that in order to prolong it’s life.

    If you were to combine a less-expensive Li/Ion storage battery pack with a much smaller (in capacity) ultracapacitor, the ultracapacitor could do all the ‘heavy lifting’ of regeneration and allow the Li/Ion pack to merely discharge during driving. So far, this would benefit any of the BEV concepts.

    In Charge Sustaining Mode, the ultracapacitor could buffer the output of a smaller generator than the Volt’s, such that there would always be half a kwh available for acceleration (or half a kwh of capacity to absorb regeneration), even at a very efficient, single rpm. Further, this would translate into much greater performance for the driver, since that half a kwh could be dumped (or loaded) much more quickly than a pampered Li/Ion pack would be allowed to (smoked tires, anyone?).

    I believe use of a surge buffer with potentially infinite cycles could possibly pay for itself in terms of money saved on the Li/Ion formulation, and could result in much longer pack life, greater efficiency in Charge Sustaining Mode, and greater performance.


  57. 57
    dagwood55

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:33 pm)

    +1. Yes, crippled as it may be, GM still has the cash to acquire EESTOR if they thought it was worthwhile. If GM doesn’t have the ready money, Toyota or Honda certainly does.

    I’d have to guess that GM’s most optimistic estimate of EESTOR is, “not happening any time soon” and their most realistic one is “scam.”


  58. 58
    EclecticDan

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:34 pm)

    Touch-nay’ :)


  59. 59
    Jack of all trades

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:39 pm)

    You guys…..

    Do you really think that IC would make this announcement unless he knew that EEStor would deliver. Don’t be so ignorant.


  60. 60
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:47 pm)

    I have my doubts about EEStor just because of all the negative talk from this blog, but have any of you been following the stocks for Zenn Motor Co…? [ZNNMF:US] It has jumped from a low of $1.11 to $5.31 since the beginning of this year. I think some people believe in it…

    If I invented a device or product that could have a major effect to the entire auto industry, I think I would keep it under wraps until it was ready for prime time too.


  61. 61
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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:48 pm)

    I think they’ll do much better just making the power storage devices themselves, and leave motors and such (the rest of the ‘drivetrain’) up to the various manufacturers.

    If you shove a motor/wheels/battery assembly under a car body, you’ve gained less than simply enabling that sort of engineering on a broader front; where there is greater opportunity for innovation and market adaptation.


  62. 62
    Jackson

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:51 pm)

    No automaker owns petroleum fuel, or the otto cycle.

    I’d like to think that EEStor is real (of course), but also that Zenn’s true aim is to spread the new enabling reality as far and wide as possible.

    The “crumple zones” which make today’s cars so much more safe in an accident was actually invented by Mercedes Benz who (as they have been quick to point out in commercials) have never enforced the patents. In a similar way, this has been their deliberate policy in the interests of safety.


  63. 63
    Jerry Jalopnik

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:56 pm)

    This is a Brilliant move. In the EV world the energy source is King. The components that surround it (Chassis, electronics, glass, etc) are just window dressing. This guy is a genius. He must have seen some of the unique EEStor powered military equipment. I am sure he is privy to some super advanced technology that will rock the industry. This move just proves the point.

    Get ready for EEStor domination

    Go ZENNergy Drive and Go EEStor.

    The revolution will soon began !

    To all you doubters, just have a little patience, I can assure you the wait will be worth it. Life is good at ZMC. :-)


  64. 64
    SteveJ

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (12:59 pm)

    I hopes its more like UNIX operating system. Windows is just very very bad OS. Please don’t be anything like Windoze.


  65. 65
    Groovy Coder

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:00 pm)

    Have you gone mad !

    NOT Windows. NO NO NO.


  66. 66
    jQuery To TheMax

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:02 pm)

    Urgent advice to EEStor developers.

    Avoid Windows at all costs. Please. For the love of god please.


  67. 67
    Jackson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:10 pm)

    … perhaps they’ll be available at Radio Shack! (a Tandy Company). I can hardly wait to see the little inscrutable table in their 4-color catalogue.

    You would probably need more than your “battery of the month” club card to get one!

    ;-)


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    Loboc

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:12 pm)

    Here we go again with EE.

    theeestory.com is the fan site. It’s about 50/50 non-believers/ hopefuls some of which claim to be invested in Zenn.

    If you listen to Weir (the guy that started EE), it is a mind-numbing drone like brain washing. He says the same things over-and-over-and-over until you kind of start believing him. Ian Clifford is learning, but, he doesn’t have his timing down yet.

    Problem is that it’s all ‘in the lab’ at this point. A secret lab at that. I can see keeping it under wraps if it is the real deal.

    Once they (Zenn or EE) demonstrates a unit in public (they have to if they want to sell them), it’ll be all over. A buy-out will be announced the next day. People invested in Zenn can then retire.

    Until that day, it’s all mumbo-jumbo lab talk. There are lots of inventions that look good in the lab (especially if you have rose-colored glasses), but never make it to market.

    I actually have a capacitor-based (FlashCell) screw driver made by Coleman of all people. It charges fully in 90 seconds. It’s amazing. Seems to me that it could possibly scale, but, we shall see.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001U8FF5Q/ref=ox_ya_oh_product

    My prediction: Yet again the EESU is delayed for some reason and won’t be delivered to Zenn by ‘the end of this year’.


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    Jackson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:12 pm)

    The way to get rich in a gold rush is to sell picks and shovels. It’s a canny business model — if they actually have picks and shovels to sell.


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    LRGVProVolt

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:13 pm)

    The Patient office is supposed to issue its third patient on or about September 29. EEStor will most likely issue a press release at that time. They have also stated that they will be making a statement around the end of September. The time is finally arriving when the truth about this product will come out.

    Zenn is wise in changing its business model. They are a small company entering a much more competitive market. For some this news will be fuel on the fire that EESU’s are just fiction. The time for the truth to be revealed is rapidly arriving.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  71. 71
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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:18 pm)

    … especially if there is any chance that Big Oil (the heavy of so many conspiracy theorists) could actually be ‘gunning’ for them.


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    Jackson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:19 pm)

    “You appear to be attempting a left turn. Would you like some help?”


  73. 73
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:42 pm)

    With today’s greed, Jackson, I doubt they would be so generous.
    If I recall history correctly, Bell labs used to invent stuff and give it away. No more. :(


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    Rashiid Amul

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:43 pm)

    Hey , no Comcastic? And I miss him so much. Good riddance.


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    LRGVProVolt

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:45 pm)

    I have viewed EEStor’s three patients as well followed the progress of this technology from the original research done at a University to the state of development today. Their patients also cover the manufacturing processes to create the internal components of the EESU not just the device. We will know soon enough if it is for real.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  76. 76
    zipdrive

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:46 pm)

    Please just shoot me if I ever have to drive a car like the ones pictured.


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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:48 pm)

    Delay, leak, and secrecy, has been the name of the game for these guys. If people are suspicious of them, it is EESTOR’s own fault.

    I agree with you… not by the end of the year.


  78. 78
    John S

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:51 pm)

    Judging the value of an invention by the stock price is a dangerous move. I bought Citicorp at $2.25/share and sold it a little over $3 bucks. The stock has been as high as $5 but the reality is that if it were sold today, the value is truly zero. I beleive the same thing is true of EESTOR.

    EESTOR promises something we all here desparately want. I have avoided many scams in my life by following the old and tired phrase of if it sounds to good to be true, it probably isn’t. What they say sounds too good to be true…to me at least.


  79. 79
    dorp7

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (1:55 pm)

    Yeah Li-ion drivetrains are superior to EEStor based drivetrains in that they exist. They are based on actual technology from this reality. I’d say the biggest disadvantage to the EEStor drivetrain is not is price, power, or capacity, but rather its inability to actually exist outside of human imagination. That’s the only thing holding me back from fully supporting EEStor.


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    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (2:04 pm)

    >> Chef Boy Ardee has announced that they have developed a
    >> canned pasta that can also be used to fuel your Audi diesel.

    They COULD do exactly that! Of course, you’d have to include a thermal depolymerization plant in every can. Probably not worth the effort and cost. ;-)


  81. 81
    Darius

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (2:08 pm)

    I would say that main mesage of article that there is no news. Thank you Lyle for your efforts.


  82. 82
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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (2:20 pm)

    I figured it was probably possible. Thought about using Jolly Green Giant pees, but I thought they will fermit? and didn’t want to be reminded of ethanol fuel uses.


  83. 83
    CaptJackSparrow

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (2:25 pm)

    They said that last year.


  84. 84
    LRGVProVolt

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (3:19 pm)

    As sit stands now, EEStor is the manufacturer, and Zenn, in effect, will be the marketing arm for the automotive arena. Do not forget that Lockheed Martin has the license for exclusive use for military and homeland security applications. It is not likely that they will license production out to another manufacturer. This is history making technology that I am sure they don’t want to give away.


  85. 85
    Tom Harwick

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (3:22 pm)

    Do you think Bernie Madoff would have announced 12% annual returns for decades on end unless he knew he could deliver?
    Dont be so ignorent.

    In reality, IC can keep talking this way, keep attracting capital, and not risk getting into trouble if EESTOR does not deliver. He is not promising to ensure that product is real.


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    ArkansasVolt

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (3:33 pm)

    “The program is not responding”

    Don’t Send – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – Send


  87. 87
    Edgar

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (3:36 pm)

    This is all beginning to sound very suspect.

    I understand that EEStor has sought UL certification, but yet, there are no definite product details – only technical “white sheets” and patent applications. While those are a good start, anyone can produce those.

    Simply put: Either EEStor has the juice, or they don’t.

    For the record, I hope they are telling the truth, and more importantly, will deliver a mass-produced product with the specs tossed about the internet for more than a year…in 10,000 to 100,000 unit lots…ANNUALLY!

    Otherwise, they’re only pulling venture capital away from other promising technological endeavors, or should I say…other legitimate endeavors.


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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (3:39 pm)

    GM won’t be farming out manufature of the drive train. They will source the motor, batteries, etc. from unrelated companies as is currently done today. Mr. Clifford is banking on his leverage by having the exclusive purchasing right of EESU’s for passenger vehicles. It’s not likely that GM would get a license for the Zennergy drive train after having spent so much on development of the Voltec drive train. They would work a deal to purchase EESU’s for Voltec through Zenn


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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (3:43 pm)

    More likely that Lockheed Martin would buy them out. this is a device that has important military implications. Which may be the reason that it is shrouded in secrecy.


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    LRGVProVolt

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (4:02 pm)

    Dan,

    If you consider the test model made in the University that first demonstrated barium titanates capacity in a superbattery then I would say it has been demonstrated! Just not to you all and I. The fact that they are about to be given their third patient which protects their design and the methods by which they manufacture the modifies barium titanate power used in the supercapcitors. On September 18, 2009 it was reported Underwriters Laboratories has received a request to certify EEStor’s product.

    How long was it for GM to get the Volt out in view of the public. We are now just seeing production Volts being tested in the field. EEStor has all along announced its progress and has had some set-backs. We are now reaching the point in time where EEStor has made EESU’s and tested them in house, and are now seeking Underwriters Laboritories certification. We should see that soon, and will then be able to say that they are just as real as the Volt.

    However, just like every other product, it will take time to verify the life expectancy of the EESU unit. Whether or not they can successfully control production and keep rejects at a minimum is yet to be seen.


  91. 91
    Zack Lee Wright

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (4:12 pm)

    You are Spot On !


  92. 92
    Zack Lee Wright

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (4:15 pm)

    You sure are a Debbie Downer. A real stick in the mud kinda persona. Your negative waves are upsetting my karma dude.


  93. 93
    skierpage

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (4:21 pm)

    No. It doesn’t “BEG the question” (assume the point it’s trying to prove), it RAISES the question, or leads to the question, or reminds me of…, etc.

    “Begging the question” is a very specific kind of fallacious reasoning.


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    stas peterson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (4:25 pm)

    There is the apocryphal Wall Street Tale, of a guy who decided to create a “Short run” on a perfectly fine company. So he created a rumor that things were going badly there. The rumors caught on and the stock price plunged.

    He than said, “Where there’s Smoke there must be a Fire”, so he jumped in the Shorting business himself… and promptly lost his shirt.


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    jeff j

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (4:34 pm)

    EESTOR again all talk no proof !!!!
    The only thing I can think of is , eestor techology may be very easy to duplicate , if this were true then once you let the Battery out of the bottle the race is on , China , South Korea and a host of other country’s will use the paper used to patten eestor’s tech as toilet paper .

    I do think eestor is a scam .


  96. 96
    Baghead Brendan

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (4:37 pm)

    and the year before that, and the year before that.
    It was “imminent” according to Ian Clifford in 2006.

    http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2999


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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (4:38 pm)

    Agree with LRGVProVolt. 50+kW instant discharge would make a hellofa big boom.

    Of course, conspiracy theories are pretty much made up anyway. Goes hand-in-hand with EE’s story.


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    skierpage

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (4:39 pm)

    @N Riley: “They don’t seem to be very busy trying to sucker in investors.”

    That is *ALL* Clifford does!!! (besides cease making actual cars). He regularly increases Zenn’s stake in EEStor and tells the world how awesome EEStor will be.

    Since EEStor has no product, not even sample EESUs, what the hell else is Clifford going to do all day? (It’s hard to do real drivetrain engineering when your energy source doesn’t exist yet.) So his behavior is understandable behavior, but it’s indistinguishable from stock kiting and suckering investors.


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    LRGVProVolt

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (4:50 pm)

    The Volt and the EESU are dusruptive technologies. Fortunately, the nation is moving forward to solve several interrelated global problems. The Volt and other EV’s will be phased in allowing businesses to transistion over to the new electric global world in the future. The EESU will allow utilities to store solar and wind power for when the electricity is needed. It will allow the new smart grid to balance out loads. This use is not disruptive to business but its application in powering transportation will be since tremendous investment has been spent on the use of lithium ion batteries. EEStor says that they are less expensive to manufacture and are lighter than lithium-ion batteries.


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    LRGVProVolt

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (5:16 pm)

    What can I say to all the skeptics. “On September 18, 2009 it was reported Underwriters Laboratories has received a request to certify EEStor’s product. “We have received a request to certify EEStor’s product,” said Priya L. Tabaddor, PhD, Global Energy Services, Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.[23]” out of Wikipedia.

    Go to: http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1035295_ul-has-received-request-to-certify-eestors-product

    Let see how long it takes UL to say something. Sounds to me that they already have an ESSU or will soon. We are arriving at the time when the truth is revealed.


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    solo

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (5:45 pm)

    EEStor = Everybody Everywhere Spew Tax dollars On Rubbish


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    Baghead Brendan

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (5:53 pm)

    You could for $100.00 send a application requesting UL to certify your baloney meter. The application is no proof your baloney meter will be UL certified.
    According to Dick Weir’s leaked audio he started dealing with UL 3 years ago. Why has nothing been certified? Maybe Dick Weir is full of BS.


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    Dan Frederiksen

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (6:08 pm)

    we’re not going to see something from them in september or ever. it’s quite a while ago it was clear they are full of shit.
    I think they promised to demonstrate the technology in second half of 2007 and they are still breaking deadlines. the real phenomenon here is how a human being can be so spectacularly douchy as to lie about something this big, so publically for so long. that’s a phenomenon worth studying. it defies any reason that you can run a company sort of succesfully and lie that much. he’s gotta be lying to himself too. it boggles the mind. either it’s a satanic spiritual thing with no apparent author or they got together at some point and decided to pull of an enduring scam that would require quite shameless lying on a massive scale. in a world where a president is an overt satanist and the likes of bernie madoff, then I suppose this shouldn’t come as a big surprise to us


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    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (6:36 pm)

    That’s a bunch of BSOD.
    :-P


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    Herm

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (6:53 pm)

    Dan, its like a religion.. we all want to believe.


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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (7:09 pm)

    I’m ready for the opening date of “EEStor … World Tour 2009″. I want to SEE this new ultracapacitor powertrain in operation at some auto shows and let it get checked out by the auto industry press and other experts.

    If their technology is legitimate, EEStor could be the biggest thing to come out of Texas since ZZ Top in the 70s or the first big oil gushers. Let’s hope that EEStor electrifies the auto industry like ZZ Top guitarist Billy Gibbons has been doing for the past 30 years. If everything works as they say it does, the top guys at EEStor will soon have more money than Jerry Jones who just opened up a $1.2 BILLION dollar football stadium in Dallas this week.

    Man, I’m hoping that EEStor is not “all hat and no cattle” like another Texas billionaire, Ross Perot, used to say. Cmon EEStor, stop the secrecy stuff and let the people see what you got. You’ve got everything patented already don’t you?


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    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (7:33 pm)

    Hmmm …. I wonder if EEStor is just going to do something similar to what their main ultracapacitor competitor, Maxwell Technologies, is doing. They are providing technology to Continental who was a contender vs. Compact Power for the Volt battery. Continental calls their technology with Maxwell ultracaps a “voltage stabilization system (VSS)”.

    http://cleantech.com/news/5048/maxwell-continental-ultracapacitor-MXWL

    “The ultracapacitors are to be used to power stop-start systems, which turn off the internal combustion engine when the vehicle slows or coasts. When the driver accelerates, the ultracapacitor provides bursts of power to re-start the engine, minimizing fuel use and relieving the vehicle’s battery of high currents and repeated cycling that can shorten battery life.

    “It can improve fuel efficiency on a basic level in the 5 to 10 percent range,” Sund said. “In heavy stop-start urban driving, it could get up to 20 percent or more savings.”


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    kdawg

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (7:41 pm)

    FYI – Shai Aggasi was on the Colbert Report talking about Project Better Place. He basically compared it to a cell phone service where you pay for minutes, but instead you would pay for miles. He also mentioned downloadable sounds for the cars called “Drive Tones”.


  109. 109
    Dan

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (7:51 pm)

    LRGVProVolt,

    As far as I know, there has never been a public demonstration. Not at any university. Also, as far as I know, there has not been any peer-reviewed publication claiming a working device. (There is no mention of a public demonstration or publication on the wikipedia entry for eestor.) To get a patent, you do NOT have to demonstrate a working device. Again, there is no evidence of a single working device ever existing.

    As far as GM goes, they demonstrated the first working Volt prototype in 2007, I believe. I do not know when they first announced it, but it was relatively rapid. EEstor started a decade ago. Still nothing.

    You mention product life expectancy and controlling production. This has nothing to do with demonstrating a single device. EEstor/Zenn talk about manufacturing goals. I believe this is just a distraction to hide that they have not been able to make a single device.

    Finally, and most importantly, EEstor has already revealed the supposed voltage and capacitance of the device. They would be revealing nothing more by a sealed box demonstration. It would only show that there previously announced capabilities were true.

    Also, I don’t think people realize how small an operation this is. Kleiner Perkins invested $3 million. Zenn has invested 3.8 million. A scientist’s salary is about $100,000 + another $100,000 in benefits/laboratory/office costs. EEstor has been around for a decade, so that comes to 6.8 million/10 years = 680,000/year = 3.5 scientists, not counting any secretaries, janitors, etc. EEstor is just a few guys making huge claims. It’s time the world ignored them.


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    Herm

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (8:12 pm)

    “GM won’t be farming out manufature of the drive train. They will source the motor, batteries, etc. from unrelated companies as is currently done today.”

    What is the drivetrain in a BEV if not the batteries, controller and motor?

    What will a future car company look like if they farm everything out?


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    JEC

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (8:20 pm)

    patients => patents.

    Just saying…


  112. 112
    JEC

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (8:23 pm)

    Are you the “Zenn” master?

    Just could not help myself, sorry.


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    JEC

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (8:26 pm)

    Kind of like it looks now.

    Completely American made content on any vehicle is small.


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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (8:26 pm)

    The Lockheed Martin military tie-in is the one, persistent sticking point which interferes with the conspiracy theories of EEStor’s detractors. Without the Lockheed Martin license, there is nothing to stop complete condemnation of EEStor as a scam. It is something that must somehow be explained away in any tale of attempted investment fraud. It remains the one reason for even the skeptical to say “we’ll have to wait and see.”

    Facts can be very annoying things.


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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (8:28 pm)

    All I can say now, is lets wait and see if UL certifies the ESSU. If that happens, I will smile. If it doesn’t I can eat my words and agree with you about those huge salaries and a lot of investors money.


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    Jackson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (8:30 pm)

    “What will a future car company look like if they farm everything out?”

    The new Saturn, maybe?


  117. 117
    Jackson

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (8:36 pm)

    Integrated circuits are another example of a formerly secret, culturally disruptive technology.

    NASA needed a computer small enough to fit in an Apollo capsule at a time that commercial models were room-filling monsters. They told the world that integrated circuits were developed from the stage of a primitive prototype expressly to solve this problem.

    They were lying.

    Integrated circuits, in fact, had already been developed to provide guidance systems for ICBMs, and had been deployed in secret for several years. The truth was not revealed until many years later.

    Can anyone deny the almost awesome effect that integrated circuits have had on communications technology?

    EEStor, if it currently exists in secret, may have so much potential for society that it must come out of the darkness. Who knows how long it may have been secret? EEStor’s “tiny operation” may merely be a cover story.

    Yes, I’m playing “extreme optimist” today. It takes just as much energy as the negativity we’ve all read (and written), but the result of this positive speculation is nothing short of astonishing.


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    Adam

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (8:40 pm)

    If it was so easy, everybody would be making them!


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    Jeff

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (8:44 pm)

    Hmmm…I did not realize. Maybe I should rephrase to brighten your day…

    In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity…Albert Einstein.

    It is great that companies like EEStor are supplying opportunities in these difficult times. It is great to be surrounded by so many trusting people to make things happen. Even though I’ve not heard, EEStor must be of divine origin to inspire this faith in a device that has not followed the normal actions of demonstration for investors. It will pull our nation and the world out the global recession.

    Also, the EEStor product will end a primary enabler (oil) for wars of this time. Even though Zenn is focusing on passenger vehicles, the EEStor device will be a great disruptor in many other industries also. Transistors/semiconductors will seem like a minor breakthrough after a few years in the hands of consumers. These very few comments are an injustice to this wonderful product.

    If anyone knows of a web link that explains EEStor’s affiliation with the divinity, it would strengthen my faith. If not…I guess that I’m mistaken and apologize for misleading anyone.


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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (9:28 pm)

    I agree. They’re hideous.
    I was hoping that if they did make the highway Zenn it would at least get some decent styling. Now I don’t have to worry. If they go through with this, we can get well-styled shells for the drivetrain.

    Anyways, I’ve always thought that zenn was rather stupid.
    For a few (i.e. $2000) dollars more, they could easily up the motor and controller to have the zenn capable of 80km/h*. So why haven’t they? Forget battery size and such, with more power comes more weight and less range. Big deal. I’d accept that going into the purchase.

    *see countless conversions from gas to eletric. All of those cars go 80km/h, if not 100, 120, etc.
    And they use electric components of (usually) $5000 or less.


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    canehdian

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (9:29 pm)

    They could be running a doctor’s office, too. Who knows? Everything’s a secret! ;)


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    Jackson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (10:42 pm)

    Dare we hope that this was the week for Lyle to block “no name’s” IP address?

    Wow, I really am playing optimist today. How’m I doin’ Tag?


  123. 123
    Larry

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:15 pm)

    Sadly, I believe EEStor is basically a lie in that it will never replace a Li-Ion battery. They will most probably live on as a successful maker of ceramic capacitors that are somewhat better than all the other ceramic capacitors on the market – only because they have a ridiculously high breakdown voltage. The most amusing thing is that they will probably be used as minor components in electronic motor controllers made by all the other automotive manufacturer’s; not for primary energy storage, but as simple filter capacitors.

    In summary: I believe the whole “cover story” about being the main energy storage medium was a self-delusion based on bad assumptions. This story turned out to be a great ‘tool’ for attracting investors so they have held to it. I believe they have a viable, but far from glamorous, business strategy for making high-breakdown-voltage ceramic capacitors.


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    M. Simon

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:20 pm)

    Flat packs.


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    M. Simon

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2009 (11:27 pm)

    Yeah. But Big Coal and Big Nuclear are rooting for them.


  126. 126
    Texas

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    Sep 24th, 2009 (1:05 am)

    Ah, a linguist in the house. Let’s explore this more:

    “More recently, to beg the question has been used as a synonym for to raise the question, or to indicate that the question really ought to be addressed. This usage is commonly followed by a colon and the statement of the question. For example, “This year’s budget deficit is half a trillion dollars. This begs the question: how are we ever going to balance the budget?”

    Using the term in this way, although common, is considered incorrect.[9] This usage is the result of confusion over the translation of petitio principii, which literally translates as “assuming the starting point”.[10]

    Arguments over whether such usage should be considered incorrect are an example of debate over linguistic prescription and description.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

    Now, If I was assuming that EEstor did verify their component and still asked if it still happened, then I am still begging the question, in the traditional sense.

    Going further, if you put the first question as the EEstor question and used the second common question to beg the first question, what I accomplish is equating the common use of the “forest” question to the EEstor question. Did EEstor verify their component? Yes, we assume he did but it does not really matter or exist for us so the reader can feel the close association with the “forest” question.

    Even if you disagree with my intent or the correct usage, even linguists are debating if it is “wrong” to use it as raising the question (as was quoted in my reference).

    Thus, perhaps you are just being overly anal. Let me guess, you have very few friends?


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    MaynardKeenan

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    Sep 24th, 2009 (4:46 am)

    Well, nothing new here :-) I want to believe!

    But I won’t get too excited or invest any money in EEStor/Zenn before they have proof. Don’t waste your time on promises.


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    Dan Petit

     

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    Sep 24th, 2009 (6:50 am)

    Even if you don’t use a small charge of fuel in the cylinder that happens to have the piston oriented correctly to fire (literally) up the engine, (which uses nothing electrically excepting a tiny spark to start an engine), otherwise, a starter motor engaging
    **does not**
    use but
    **one watt hour** to start any gasoline engine.

    (Gasoline: 150 amps starter, times 12 volts = 1,800 watts,
    1,800 watts divided by 60 minutes = 30 watt minutes,
    30 watt minutes divided by 30 a “two-second-crank-time”
    = only one watt hour to start a car engine.)

    A capacitor to be described to be helpful to start any engine is not really of any value. The very worst battery on the market can be 99.9% worn-out and still easily start an engine.

    The problem I see with EESTOR is that they are beginning to backpedal out of supposed “markets” that they originally hypothesized they would “easily” fit into, such as “anything with 4 wheels”, and, from likely forward-looking (to put it mildly) statements (as we have all read about here), that were undoubtedly used in their gaining interest from their various partners.

    While likely EESTOR might have something that might be somehow helpful for stationary power (such as for renewable energy buffering), I would extract from their long-term scale-back of representations as to their “interest” in more stationary power applications as an indirect but clear indication that their product is somehow not suited for automotive applications.

    I would take that one or two steps further, in that, if EESTOR has something appropriate for, say, storage of Wind or Solar (thermal) energy, then more power to them.

    But for interested readers here, I would acquiesce to the idea that EESTOR is not at all for the automotive interests in general, for reasons that only EESTOR would never discuss.

    The other question would be if Underwriters Labs would discuss openly for us the concerns they have regarding any discovered safety issues, or, if any safety issues are held by law to be considered “trade secrets”, and never able to be disclosed. If that were the case, then I could never bring myself to accept anything not approved by a GM battery lab.

    And, that, of course, brings up the potentially alarming fact that if GM battery labs are not “proofing out” the safety of an energy storage device,
    *********************************************************************
    HOW THE HECK ARE SOME OF THESE OTHER OEM’s
    *********************************************************************
    *********************************************************************
    HONESTLY REPRESENTING SAFETY??.
    *********************************************************************
    “Ohh, we didn’t know”. is not going to cut it.

    If nothing is heard from Underwriters Labs, then you can safely bet on not betting on it.


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    ozonelevel

     

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    Sep 24th, 2009 (7:41 am)

    For #@$’s sake! It’s PATENT not PATIENT!


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    Adrian

     

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    Sep 24th, 2009 (12:01 pm)

    Now this is a battery car to get excited about. Using Li Ion batteries is silly and anti-green. But I believe I will take the Missouri slogan approach… show me.

    Combine this with fuel cell tech and you have energy independence.


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    Montgoss

     

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    Sep 24th, 2009 (12:26 pm)

    They don’t make cars capable of 80km/h (50mph) or even above 25mph because they wouldn’t be able to sell them without extensive safety testing. With the limited cars they’re selling now, they don’t do any expensive safety testing.


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    GM Volt Fan

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    Sep 24th, 2009 (2:42 pm)

    If ultracapacitors from EEStor don’t work out like they are supposed to, I’m betting that the big national labs like Argonne Labs or the IBM consortium will overcome the problems with “lithium- air batteries” in maybe 4-5 years. Check out these videos. These guys are some hardcore genius researchers:

    http://www.physorg.com/news172945978.html

    Lithium-air technologies are being researched heavily all over the world these days. Especially in Japan. They must be “onto something big” if ALL of these guys are putting big money and their big brains into the project.

    They say that “lithium-air” is THE electrical storage solution that will shake up the energy world bigtime. It will pretty much do all the things that EEStor is claiming with their ultracapacitors. EEStor probably still has a bright future though. I think a COMBINATION of ultracapacitors and lithium-air batteries would definitely be a paradigm-shifting, world changing technology for sure.


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    Grady C

     

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    Sep 24th, 2009 (10:23 pm)

    Zenn owns the exclusive rights to make passenger-size vehicles using the EEStor ultra-capacitor. If this product really worked, it would make other batteries obsolete overnight. Since they have basically given up on making passenger cars, we can infer that there is serious problems with the mass production of these ultra-capacitors. Like others commenting here, I have been following EEStor and Zenn for about three years. The stock tends to get hyped up in the summer, then declines in winter, and then repeats the cycle. I’ve moved from hopeful to skeptical to nonbeliever.


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    LeKaido

     

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    Sep 25th, 2009 (6:22 am)

    The clock is about to strike midnight on the EEStor cinderella story.. functional technology or out with the tall tales…


  135. [...] Learn more:  GM-volt.com [...]


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    Timaaayyy!!!

     

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    Sep 25th, 2009 (4:41 pm)

    Everyone please be cautious about some of the posts here, as Zenn is a publicly traded company.


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    tom gray

     

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    Sep 26th, 2009 (8:55 pm)

    Ian has made the right decision – the money is in the capacitor,
    something which ZENN Motors can easily engineer into a drivetrain
    for OEMs. I already have my Austin-Healey picked out for the conversion. Finally, a Briitish sports car that is utterly reliable.
    Certainly the last thing ian needs to convince OEMs is a demonstrator car. Just give them the capacitor and let them test it. That’s all you need do.


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    kent beuchert

     

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    Sep 26th, 2009 (8:57 pm)

    A succesful EEStor means quick engineering job yanking out the range extender and losing more than a few pounds.


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    Biodieseljeep

     

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    Sep 28th, 2009 (7:11 pm)

    make it stop.

    make it STOP

    MAKE IT STOP

    MAKE IT STOP!!!!!!!

    Madoff at least gave some money OUT to make the scheme look plausible….


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    Zenn Motors Pulls out of Electric Derby

     

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    Feb 28th, 2010 (10:15 pm)

    [...] Abandoning this strategy, Zenn Motors will instead focus on building and developing ZENNergy Drive systems, which are a type of electric drivetrain designed to integrated with the forthcoming EEStor battery technology. More… [...]