Grab our RSS Feed

AND

Nissan to Lease LEAF EV Battery for Under $150 per Month

September 19th, 2009 | Posted in: Battery, Financial

When Nissan debuted its all electric Leaf on August 2nd, the indication was that they intended to sell the car and then lease the battery separately for most parts of the world.

At the time, Carlos Ghosn (Nissan’s CEO) told the media that the price of the car would be competitive with its peers, and that “the monthly cost to lease the battery and fill it with electrons will be less than an average month of fill-ups at the gas station,” but declined to ballpark that in actual dollars.

However, when speaking to Le Journal du Dimanche earlier in the week, Mr. Ghosn was again asked if Nissan’s electric cars would be more expensive than similar conventional cars? To which he answered:

“No. The electric car only makes sense if everyone can benefit. It must be for the customer at the same price as his gasoline equivalent in particular thanks to government aid. The battery will be leased for just under 100 euros ($150USD) per month. The cost of electricity consumption and the leasing of the battery will be lower than the cost of gasoline.” (translated from french)

In the United States the decision has not yet been made on whether the Leaf will be lease only on the battery, or if they will offer the car and battery as one package for outright purchase. When asked, a representative from Nissan USA said:

“We are considering the options to provide the best value to our customers. We will say more when we can. ” /big help

As for GM’s take on the subject, Andrew Farah (who is the Volt’s chief engineer) had this to say about the option of leasing the battery inside the Volt:

“We’re designing for the battery pack to have a 10-year life and there has been discussion of all sorts of battery business models, but we’re working from the perspective that it will be sold with the car.”

One thing is for sure, the merits of leasing over buying is a hotly contested debate in EV circles. Leasing of the battery itself puts the driver’s mind at ease when it comes to the long term reliability and performance of the battery, but does so at the cost of a never-ending monthly fee.

Loading ...

Posted by: Statik

165 Responses to “Nissan to Lease LEAF EV Battery for Under $150 per Month”

+7 Tagamet Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:11 am

Leasing the battery is one of the few deal breakers for me.
JMO
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS

(Quote)
LazP Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:26 am

I definitely would not lease.

(Quote)
+6 old man Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:26 am

Tag:

I agree but with an exception. If I lease the battery it MUST be a LOT less than $150.00 a month and a full refund for the car if a replacement battery is no longer available AND/OR a free car to use if I have to wait more than one day for the replacement battery.

$150.00 a month is $18,000.00 after 10 years or $$14,400.00 after 8 years. Dang expensive battery in my opinion.

(Quote)
+6 nasaman Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:29 am

I agree, Tag. The only way I’d ever consider leasing the battery would be if the miles driven were the primary determinant of the lease rate —on a monthly basis.

For example, driving the car enough to fully discharge the battery every day of a given month would determine the maximum lease rate ….and leaving it parked every day of the next month would establish the minimum rate.

In other words, the lease rate should be determined primarily by USEAGE (much like metering our electricity from a power plant) with TIME making only a minimal contribution to the rate.

(Quote)
LRGVProVolt Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:30 am

I agree Tagamet!

Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.

(Quote)
+4 tom Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:39 am

I don’t understand the problem with leasing the battery. The Leaf is different than the Volt, ALL the miles are AER.

So if the car costs the same or less than a comparable ICE (with tax rebate), then the battery lease is just the money you spend every month which should be less then the money you are saving by not buying gas.

It makes it a simple math equation for anyone to buy the car.

If you drive the car 1800 miles a month and that saves you 45 gallons of gas, and if at current gas prices that saves you $180 a month (including the cost of your electricity), then it is a good deal.

And the buyer know he is doing his part to not buy oil.

The only problem to me is if the car and the battery are made overseas.

(Quote)
old man Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:48 am

Tom

I am not a number cruncher type dude. Can you or anybody else tell me what the price of the battery is if, after 10 years you have paid $18,000.00. To give you a number to work with we will say the interest rate on the battery purchase would have been 5 percent for the ten years.

May be wrong but my guess is it will still be one dang expensive battery.

My point is, if the Leaf sells for say $26,000.00 and you still have to lease a battery for the 10 year life of the Volt battery is the Leaf actually less costly than the Volt?

(Quote)
+2 carcus1 Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:52 am

My repost from 8/28/09 (battery lease price — dead nuts on, the rest ???):

Off topic, Leaf prediction:
Here’s my guess on what Nissan could do with the Leaf.
Leaf purchase price: $17,950.00
Battery lease: $149.00/mo
/Personally, I hate the idea of a battery lease. But if I were on the other side (i.e. Nissan accounts receivable) . . . .
//I’m thinking the Leaf sans battery break even point for Nissan is around $12,000, the battery . .. something less than $10,000.

Nissan would be making $5,950 on the car itself (no battery), this is quite a bit better than the typical $2,000 to $4,000 numbers that I’ve seen tossed around on a car in this price range.
But the real long term money is likely in the battery lease. In order to maintain the lease on your leaf battery, you would likely have to come in for scheduled checks (not free) to check the health of the battery and the car’s systems. If there’s a problem they’ll be able to swap packs/repair cells at their discretion. Some repair fees may be required . . .unless of course you opt for the extra $29.95 per month advanced warranty program. etc… etc…. (the battery contract will specify that only offical Nissan service centers will be able to work on the car)
You get the point.
If this type of program were to catch on, the car manufacturers that were directly tied to or owned their own battery manufacturing would have quite an advantage (i.e. all the Japanese, none of the U.S.).

At the 5 to 7 year point, the battery is probably down to 70 or 80% of its original capacity. Nissan swaps it out for a fresh pack and sends the old one to their “conditioning center” where they analyze the cells and recondition/ change packaging for resale to the utility companies (load balancing for the wind turbines, or whatever).
Nissan probably gets to charge at 1/2 of the original selling price.
At year 7, Nissan is now in the black thusly:
Original sale of car (w/o battery): $5,950
Lease of battery (149×12×7-10,000): $ 2,516
Resale of used battery: $ 5,000
Total $13,466*
*DNI all the little fees, insurance, and maintenance associated with the battery lease.
Advantage for the Leaf owner: he/she doesn’t have to worry about a $10,000 charging glitch/battery failure. Basically you never have to worry about your battery failing, and if it starts to fade Nissan will give you a fresh or reconditioned pack.
Advantage for Nissan: that would be the 13,466 number

(Quote)
+1 jeffhre Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:52 am

Initially the only thing made in NA will be the “electrons.”

(Quote)
+5 zipdrive Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:06 am

I think there should be a 5th choice for the above voting:

“Not interested in a BEV. I want a Chevy Volt.”

(Quote)
+1 old man Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:08 am

Carcus1

Even with your estimated sell price for the Leaf it seems costly to me.

$17,950.00 for the car + $150.00 x12×10=$18,000.00+$5000.00 for the battery when it could have been sold by the buyer.

I just don’t see the advantage to the Leaf.

(Quote)
+1 Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:15 am

well, its a 24kwh pack, $12k for the batteries ($500 per kwh) plus 30% for packaging comes out to $15.6k.. so it would be about right for a 9 year lease (I guess, dont know how leases are calculated).

I would be interested in paying that lease for four years and then getting a newer tech battery in lease again for another 4 years.. probably higher capacity.

I think this would be a good idea for the next 10 years, until lithium battery tech settles down.

The car I would buy outright.

(Quote)
+3 Jason Sander Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:16 am

So what happens when you want to buy a new car and sell off the Leaf? You bought the car itself, but the leased battery has to go back to Nissan, so now you’re left with the shell of a car that is absolutely worthless without a battery.

Someone tell if I’m missing something here.

(Quote)
+3 Jason Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:19 am

The points are all really good and persuasive. I’m honestly on the fence on this one. The whole point to a lease, from a consumers perspective, is its sufficiently less expensive than buying. If they do that, I’d reluctantly consider it.

My real question is how much would it likely cost for me to replace the Volt’s battery when needed? Not that I’d really want to if it had reached its 10 year target. I’d be ready to buy something newer.

Another interesting concept. How would battery life projections effect trade-in valuation? Assuming I’d be going for another GM model.

(Quote)
+4 Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:19 am

Will you able to get the fed tax credit if you did not buy the battery?

(Quote)
+2 Wolfdoctor Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:27 am

By requiring a battery lease at the high cost of $150/month will immediately eliminate drivers who don’t put a lot of miles on their cars. Buyers should have some kind of choice to buy or lease. I, personally, only drive about 5000 miles per year, so a car lease or battery lease makes no sense for me.

(Quote)
+1 jan Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:28 am

What to do with a 8-10 year old wore-out battery that comes in an odd shape. What will be the marketplace for these — craiglist? If not a lease I’d like certainty on its disposal and replacement. Perhaps the lease would have a buyout clause. I’m imagining used batteries laying in peoples yards with weeds growing around them. Lets get the recycle program right from the getgo.

(Quote)
+1 Tagamet Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:30 am

LRGV, et.al.
I hope GM takes a look at Lyle’s poll or reads the comments. Leasing seems a no-starter for the majority of folks.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS

(Quote)
Tagamet Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:33 am

tom,
To me, leasing a PART of a vehicle is a way for the mfg to say “I don’t trust this part to last”. The whole vehicle should last, including the battery.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS

(Quote)
+3 koz Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:39 am

The car should be offered for sale complete with battery, for sale with battery lease, and for lease with battery lease. It is clear that there will be people interested in each option and what is the downside?

IMO, and I’ve stated this before, even if nobody buys the car with a battery lease it is still important to offer a BEV this way (the VOlt too). This transaction option will pull people to into think of the battery cost in the proper terms. It should be viewed, along with electricity cost, as a replacement for gasoline and thus an operational expense. The problem for so much of the public and many followers here is that they the purchase price of EREVs and BEVs on equal terms with ICE-centric vehicles. The cost without the battery is actually the most comparable apples to apples comparison, since the battery is really displacing the operational gasoline costs. BEVs will also displace a bunch of other maintainance costs but they need to prove themselves first. Offering the battery for lease will make it easier for the public to see this first cost vs. operation cost dynamic.

(Quote)
Tagamet Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:43 am

I like the choice, but it might have taken away from the question being asked about the *leasing* issue. Just a thought.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS

(Quote)
Mark Bartosik Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:48 am

If they lease the battery they may be giving up on the federal $7500 tax credit.

(Quote)
+5 nasaman Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:49 am

PS: Good topic, well presented, Statik! (You picked an excellent contributor, Lyle!)

(Quote)
+1 Texas Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:50 am

I like the idea of leasing the battery. For the Volt, it’s not that big of a deal because the battery is so small but for a BEV the initial cost can be so high that most people will not be able to wrap their minds around it. A low entry price with an extra battery fee sounds so much better. Of course it’s the same but most people are not knowledgeable about best financial practices. If they were, they would not have any CC debt and would save a whole lot more.

Also, I think the lease will allow the auto maker to reduce the risk of the battery purchase and thus would not have to price in a replacement, like Lutz alluded to before (twice the battery price).

With such a new battery technology, it’s a good idea to lease it. Besides, the electric platform is extremely reliable with long life. The battery is the only component at great odds with that. That’s why it makes such good sense to separate them.

Better Place also uses this concept and it allows them to manage the battery technology transition more effectively. They can bring in new technology at a pace that make best sense for them. The customer does not even need to know what technology they are using. They will only care that the car performs as advertised. Every time they go to the swap-station (or the computer recommends them to swap – perhaps because of a substandard cell module) they get a fully qualified replacement in around two minutes. Try that at your local car dealer with your owned battery pack.

I feel it’s no contest. The swap-station concept and lease model has all the elements to be far more successful for large battery packs. Again, for the Volt it might not make that much difference. The ICE can get them home and can power the car if a cell module goes bad and the pack size is not that great. It’s going to be very interesting to see what the consumer goes for. Everyone better put on their marketing hats.

(Quote)
koz Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:52 am

This is European market pricing. It is the equivalent of driving about 9.5K miles per year with a 30mpg average and $6/gal gas. That sounds pretty good if a 100mile BEV works for you and you drive more than 8K miles per year. You will have effectively locked your fuel expense in at $6.85/gal or less depending on how many miles you dirve.

The metrics don’t look so good at this lease rate for the US market since gas is so much less. You need to drive more like 15K miles per year. I do think there is room in the $150/mo number for Nissan to come down to a more marketable level in the US but it will still be a higher mile scenario here to make financial sense. In volume, they should be able to offer the Leaf, sans battery, for a significantly lower price than a comparably equipped ICE vehicle. This could offset a higher battery + electricity expense vs gasoline.

(Quote)
Tagamet Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:52 am

Herm,
Excellent question! I have no idea what the answer is, but it’s a thought provoking question!
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS

(Quote)
+1 koz Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:54 am

good points

(Quote)
+6 statik Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:54 am

Actually, I wrote this piece. (I wouldn’t want GM to mistake any of my opinions as Lyle, although I tried to keep my opinion out of this article as much as possible)

But I agree, and hope that GM takes into consideration the wants of its loyal Volt base…which can be found here.

(Quote)
+2 Texas Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:57 am

I hope people consider that a 24 kWh battery pack will only cost a grand or so in 7 years. You can always just buy a new, very inexpensive battery pack replacement when your lease term is up.

You also don’t have to worry about disposal or talking to potential buyers about how you drove like a grandmother and that the battery has a lot of life left. What a hassle. Just turn in your battery and swap in the best option at the time. When you buy a used BEV you don’t even have to worry about it. Just buy the car and swap in a purchased or leased replacement pack. Then you know everything.

(Quote)
+4 Tagamet Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:57 am

WOW, I didn’t even notice that it was Statik. It read just like Lyle’s prose. Excellent job Statik!
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS

(Quote)
+1 Dan Petit Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:58 am

Just some quick notes.

In France, the price of gas is around $6 a gallon, is it not?
Leasing might make sense over there, but, what if the battery is a really really good one? The old “swap-a-pack” might be just a method to swap someone elses’ “3 year old” battery, (do almost nothing to it), (especially if it is possibly a 10-year-life-expectancy-battery in the first place, which in theory might be a “three-times-use” at 36 month lease) battery. Especially if it was to be designed in the first place to go 10 years like the GM one.

What windfall profits for Nissan if that were the case. If that were the case, I think customers would be angry at the situation if they really took great care of that battery if they were easy-drivers and attentive chargers (every night), and found out that the battery could go even just twice the distance and time of the lease), and, they paid the same as someone who happened to have abusive, harsh, and impulsive usage patterns, leaving a very good battery for someone else without some fairer returned consideration to them as low-demand users.
Leasing could be made, therefore, to have a “carrot and stick” clause in it that says “Second Lease/purchase option COST DISCOUNT at the end of this lease term depends on how the battery is used and attentively recharged”.

Although there might be a good side to a lease if there is exceptionally-low usage and low demand-loading of it, it is that the entire load and draw-down history might be made recordable (and openly accessible via OBD2, so ***anyone*** can know how good the battery has been treated), and, it might be appropriate for the remarketing/re-use of a very lightly used battery for fulfillment of remainder of warranty periods for the more abusive, harsh, and impulsive driving situations, and, an increasingly higher credit of some sort be given to those who take really good care of all their stuff.

Does the pack get “yanked out by Nissan” if there is a “total loss” in case of an accident on, say a patch of ice in the winter, and/or, the value of the pack is compensated to the Lease Holder or Nissan as a proprietary “claw back”?

These are some additional underlying questions that many voters here might want answers to if they checked the box for “will consider leasing”.

There are plenty of deeper questions about leasing depending on the technology of the battery and the specs of the battery, which I believe we should be able to have conversations about if leasing is offered. This is so that the public is not “blind” about how they must drive in order to fulfill its responsibilities of the lease terms to a great extent.

So, what are the demand, durability, and longevity specs of that battery?

(Quote)
+4 Tagamet Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 10:04 am

Well, Kudos statik (again). Fine job and indistinguishable from Lyle’s fine work.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS

(Quote)
+1 Dave K. Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 10:08 am

The battery should not be viewed as an add on to the EV. The consumer may lease the entire vehicle. Or buy the entire vehicle.

Vehicles which are “sold” will be followed up with frequent email regarding battery exchange, reuse programs, and other options.

K.I.S.S.

=D~

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 10:18 am

I’m not saying that I (personally) would prefer a battery lease — leasing will likely be more costly to the car buyer in the long run. I’m saying this could be the business model that works.

The lease of battery:

1. Lowers initial purchase price (and loan payments) substantially for the buyer.
2. Puts the risk of early battery failure on the manufacturer.
3. Allows for an active “pipeline” of used batteries that the manufacturer can then manage for better profit.
4. Relieves the car buyer from the hassle of selling/recycling a used battery.

(Quote)
+1 old man Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 10:46 am

Herm

I admit your 4 year lease did cause me to spend some time thinking about a lease in a more positive light. I do see a potential problem. If I were the company holding the paper on the 4 year lease my monthly charge would have to be way over $150.00 a month. The reason is I firmly believe the capacity and cost of batterys is going to improve drastically in the coming 4 years and I could end up eating a costly battery that has very little appeal to future customers.

(Quote)
+5 CorvetteGuy Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 10:51 am

To Lease, or not to Lease: that is the question:
Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The Finance Charges and Monthly Taxes of outrageous APR’s,
Or to take a Rebate against a Economy of troubles,
And by accepting it end them? To Borrow: to Drive;
To Drive: perchance without Gas: ay, there’s the rub!

(Quote)
James Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:17 am

I guess it all depends on the price of the car, to see if this lease charge is reasonable. It the Leaf if $20K and I keep the car 4 years, I will have paid $27,200. That seems reasonable to me.

I really wish they would release the damn pricing for all these cars instead of teasing us with certain facts and figures.

That being said, I am still very interested in the Leaf.

(Quote)
James Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:18 am

The battery lease would transfer with the car. They aren’t going to come and remove your battery!

(Quote)
Jason M. Hendler Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:23 am

This arrangement would actually be acceptable to me, as long as I could cancel the lease at any time and buy / lease a better battery when it comes to market.

(Quote)
Frank D Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:25 am

I want to get away from as many monthly payments as possible…I would rather buy the car and battery.

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:28 am

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/dmc0018l.jpg

(Quote)
DaV8or Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:45 am

There is speculation that utilities will be interested in buying them to use as buffers. In about 8 to 10 years time when GM and the on board computer on the Volt will consider the battery “worn out”, it will still have 50% capacity and of some use for other purposes. I agree that a well developed recycling program will need to be in place by that time.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:45 am

it is like periodically buying fuel for your car.. How dare they!, they will always hold you by your xxxxx

(Quote)
+2 Mark Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:46 am

I would not lease a car. I’d rather buy it. Leasing is the one weak area of the link. What if the lease runs out and there is no battery replacement?.. 30,000 dollar paperweight.

Also, lease at 150 per month? I don’t use that much gas in a month with my Corolla. This makes no sense to me.

(Quote)
+2 Randy Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:47 am

Buying gasoline is a never ending monthly expense also.

(Quote)
+1 Noel Park Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:48 am

Thanks Bill, LOL. Nothing like a good laugh to start the day out right.

Actually, I voted “Doesn’t matter to me”. I don’t see how we can make any kind of a meaningful comparison until we see some actual numbers. I have never leased a car in my life, but I would try anything once if the numbers seemed to add up.

I never believed that GM would price a complete replacement battery pack into every Volt, per Lutz. Still, I bet that there will be a pretty stout allowance as a contingency against problems with the 10 year warranty on this new technology. So, if that warranty contingency could be gotten rid of, or substantially lowered, by leasing the pack, maybe there’s a good tradeoff there.

Anyway, I’m reserving judgment until I see some actual numbers.

(Quote)
-1 DaV8or Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:48 am

In the photo above, I like the wheel chock. What??!! The Catfish doesn’t come with a parking brake??!! There’s going to be a lot of Nissan owners running themselves over trying to chock the wheels on a hill! LOL

(Quote)
James E Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:50 am

Battery Technology is improving exponentially. In two years they will be smaller will be able to store more energy at a lower cost. Lease for 2-3 years then upgrade with a new battery pack for extended range. It is the same for all electronics. Plasma TV’s were over $10k five years later you can get them for $1500, same thing for computers etc….NPNS

(Quote)
Noel Park Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:52 am

And how about the PBP model, where thay supposedly GIVE you the car when you sign a contract for “x” years, and you pay a fee per mile or whatever, al la the cell phone model? Another really interesting spin on this issue, if true.

(Quote)
Dave G Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

I don’t do leases (period).

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

People do think of batteries as disposable items, and they often have limited cycles… and yet the BEV itself can be designed with an almost unlimited life. So it makes sense (to me) to separate the two.

PBP/Nissan/Renault are going hog wild with BEV, so hopefully there will advantages of mass manufacturing across their lines of electric cars. Things such as batteries, motors, electric brake components, electric AC, and inverters.. all these items have the potential to be as cheap as their ICE counterparts but they do depend on mass production.

They have been working on this since 2007.. their battery making arm promises to crank up battery production to 65,000 units by 2010.

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2009/_STORY/090716-01-e.html

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html

(Quote)
+1 Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

You would select the option to buy the battery then..

(Quote)
+1 ccombs Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

I think you can come up with a number of good reasons why leasing is a better option, but it still won’t fly. I get the impression from talking to people that North Americans (myself included) just like owning things instead of leasing/renting them in general. Perhaps we’re control freaks? Maybe the Volt can lease the battery in Europe and offer that as an option in the US to test out the idea, but I think in the US and Canada buying should be the default.

On an unrelated note, this is why I think the “rent a range extender trailer for your BEV” idea won’t catch on. People will either buy them or want them integrated into their car unless you come up with a darn good business model. I can think of some ideas, but none that are good enough that people will want to rely on them.

(Quote)
Anthony Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

I would assume it would have to be lower here for the US considering that our gas prices are lower than Europe ($129/mo?).

Financially, I could see it making sense. If you figure the Volt battery is $8K, this battery would be $12K. At 5% over 10 years, the financed price is $127.28. If you use it for 7 years its sold for $200/kWh in 2017 the financed price is still around $120/mo. From there you could lease a 35kWh (real-world range of 125mi) for $150/mo, or a similar 25kWh battery for $99/mo (assuming $400/kWh price in 2017, decreasing to $250 by 2020).

One downside of this would probably be insurance – your car insurance would have to cover the battery because its never paid off. At least with the Volt, if you pay it off in 5 years you can drop collision on your insurance. Maybe you could get collision at a reduced rate just covering the battery.

I pay about $100/mo on gas now, after doing all the math its really only worth it if gas goes back up to $4/gal.

(Quote)
+1 Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

I dont know how Datsun came up with this number.. a previous article I saw stated the lease would be under US $100 a month, not Euros.

These are not 10 year batteries either, Gosn recently claimed a life of 100,000 kilometers (62k miles) and previous articles have stated a 7 year life before they degrade to 80% of their capacity ( the battery chemistry is similar to what the Volt will use).

So I really doubt the lease term will be more than 7 years, perhaps 5 years?.. if so then they have made a price breakthru on their batteries since that works out to only just $9k for the lease payments.

(Quote)
+1 Todd Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

I’m not so sure about the $150.00 a month average statement. I’m going to buy a car that has limited range, I have to pay to charge, and I have to pay each month to keep the battery – where’s the savings? My Chevy Avalanche uses about $200.00 a month in gas. It’s much more comfortable than that little blue bug thing Nissan wants to sell and if I get hit unless by a semi-truck, I’m still alive in my Avalanche, not so in the little squashed blue Nissan bug.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

Whichever direction Nissan decides to go on the question of pay-as-you-go battery or not. The Leaf will be popular until the next better thing comes along. Kind of like the original VW Beetle and the Toyota Corona (then Corolla).

=D~

(Quote)
-1 Vincent Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

So at the end of the day what is the price of this car compared with the Volts 8 year warranty….

Car plus battery lease for equivalent time of the Volt battery warranty is it 8 years now.
So 96 months based on 8 years at a guesstimate of $199 monthly for battery = $19,104 car another $20 (?) Still 40K people.
Volt is the winner still….

Leaf = winner of most uninspiring vehicle design of the century. AND No E Rev….thats terrible unless there is a 400 mile range….but even then your at the end of range….it’s dark and rainy. You must reach any important destination….jerk, jerk, wine, wine, crawl….stop….lights dim. Your freakin stuck in Boise Idaho with cow pies. Real nice. Better yet your Wife is driving and she gets stuck charge depleted…on the wrong side of the tracks trying to get home…

Volt = Superior in every conceivable area by a huge, huge, margin.

Leaf makes the Prius look good….and that’s real bad.

(Quote)
+2 Bruce Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

Say what you want about the Leaf but it is a game changer.

It will be the first mass produced, accessible to the general public, electric vehicle. This is the Model T of our era. An affordable, widely available electric vehicle.

Is it perfect? Is it for everyone? Of course not. But that doesn’t diminish the importance of this car to our time.

(Quote)
+2 gsned57 Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

“We are considering the options to provide the best value to our customers. We will say more when we can. ” /big help

As soon as I read that I knew it wasn’t Lyle and only needed one of my 3 guesses to figure out who it was

(Quote)
Jeff Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

Only if you drive it…my truck has set undriven for weeks and/or driven infrequently. Everyone has different needs. Vehicle leasing has so many infavorable terms…in this case, just the battery pack would be leased. Supposedly this battery pack lease is to protect the car owner from failure…trust me…you will pay dearly for Nissan (or 3rd party leasing company) to assume this risk. Also if they consider that you “abused” the battery pack, you will be asked to pay for it. Leasing can be great for businesses…but for the individual, leases can have more benefits than you need which translates into you buying more services than you need.

(Quote)
EVNow Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

Statik,

This (and the autobloggreen) articles are not accurate.

Ghosn is talking to a French newspaper about Renault EVs. This is not about Nissan or Leaf. Definitely not about US.

We don’t know what they will do with Leaf in US – may be lease/own separate options ? What would it cost ? Who knows …

(Quote)
EVNow Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

Yes, for a new technology item where the technology is evolving leasing makes a lot of sense. I’d happily lease the battery and change it to a cheaper, larger one in 3/5 years.

I wish I could lease HDTVs 10 years back.

(Quote)
EVNow Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

If we can’t get the $7,500 rebate they won’t even think about leasing the battery.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

That little bug has more interior room than your Avalanche, but of course it cant carry a 4×8 sheet of plywood.. apples and oranges.

If you are spending $200 a month, then most likely you are driving about 15k miles a year, or about 41 miles a day.. an electric pickup with a range of about 80 miles would be just about perfect for you, and you could carry your plywood etc.

When (not if) gas gets back up to $4.50 a gallon you will be spending $350 on gas every month.. ouch!

(Quote)
+1 pdt Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

$40/kWh? I don’t think so. You can’t even buy a cheap lead-acid battery for that. The cheapest 18650 Li-ion cell is ~$250/kWh and that is not designed for even close to the cycle life needed.

Long term one could hope for ~250-300 $/kWh, so at least $6000 for a 24 kWh battery.

(Quote)
koz Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:19 pm

You would have been correct in asserting the car would be “useless” without a battery but its worth will be another matter. Value will be determined by the cost of the battery and the cost of gas at the time.

I imagine you there will be terms in the lease for transferring it in the event of a sale of the vehicle. This will likely require the written approval of the leasing entity.

(Quote)
Jeff Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

So, if that warranty contingency could be gotten rid of, or substantially lowered, by leasing the pack, maybe there’s a good tradeoff there
————————————————————-
If leasing is the best idea for the battery pack…then leasing the entire vehicle is a better idea. Or leasing terms clearly state HUGE personalities for auto manufacturer and/or leasing company…like refunding the entire cost of the vehicle if a battery pack can not be provided anytime in the future…even after 10 years of life.

Also, what will become of the lease at the supposedly “end of life” of the vehicle (10 years)? Cars do last longer than 10 years…the proof is on the roads right now.

(Quote)
koz Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

Perhaps, but if not then you are probably looking $10-12K for the purchase price of the car without the battery.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

The Volts battery cost GM about $12k, they would have to mark it up to sell it to you.. will they have them in stock in 10 years?

The Volt and the Leaf batteries are similar chemistry, Volt gets 10/150 and Leaf promises 7/60.. how did GM achieve this?.. by doubling up on the battery.. you start up your Volt career with a pack double the size, as it degrades over the years it will end up having half the capacity at the end of the 10/150 term.. at the end you end up paying the same. Nissan upsized their battery by 20%, GM by 100% to get you that extra life.

Recently there was that survey that said the Volts battery warranty would be 8/100 so perhaps there is not much of a difference.

(Quote)
koz Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

Too true Noel and this is why I chose not to vote.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:27 pm

There should be a choice.. btw the nissan battery will have 7/60 life, so your battery would die of old age, not from miles. Present tech lithium batteries do have a calendar life life limitation, whether they are used or not.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

The Volt battery is designed to degrade to half its size by the end of that time.. that would be 8wkh and quite substantial.. equivalent to 6 deep cycle lead acid marine batteries, it would power a hell of a battery backup system for computers.

(Quote)
-1 Reality Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

Leaf is
u-g-l-y you aint got no alibi

your ugly, your ugly
your mother fn ugly

all together now…

(Quote)
Opinion Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:33 pm

Bruce what did I miss? how is it more affordable.
the car is twenty thousand and the batter is not included.
Shall I ship you a calculator. Model T What?

(Quote)
Jeff Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

It will be the first mass produced, accessible to the general public, electric vehicle. This is the Model T of our era
———————————————-
Hmmm…I do not seem to remember reading about a monthly lease of a vital powertrain component of the Model T for new owners.

(Quote)
-2 Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

I cant believe you are comparing the Leaf to a used Corolla in terms of financial payback.. not on this site!

Its not about saving money but about saving the planet!
……..

sorry, just teasing you!
We all have our reasons..

(Quote)
your kidding right Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

Batteries not included Bruce!
Guess you forgot that main ingredient pal.
This country has gullible people.

Hows that shamwow doing Bruce

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

The historical part is the vision of Ghosn.. they (PBP/Nissan/Renault/NEC) are getting ready to sell 65k BEVs a year starting in 2010, mostly driven by this man.

(Quote)
Forest Gump Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

Hey Bruce
BATTERIES mean another 2,000 dollars per year at least.
did nissan pay you to come here with stupidity equal to the nasty design of that gaymobile

(Quote)
-1 Ugly Betty Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

I would look marvelous in this piece of crap. Please park it next to the beautiful yugo. what an ugly babe magnet.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

I really doubt it will be an 8 year lease.. lets say 4 years:

$18k for the Leaf + $7200 total lease pymt = $25,200

Thats a lot cheaper than $40k and you can seat more than 4 people.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:49 pm

Its probably a mockup.. in any case that is the best angle for the Catfish II, it does not look too bad. BTW, either Carlos is not a big man or the Catfish II is fairly large.

It could be much worse:

http://z.about.com/d/cleveland/1/0/I/X/-/-/catfish.jpg

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

As your smiling face indicates, Bruce was not talking about terms of purchase. But if you want to give a car company credit for creating mass consumer indebtedness, that crown would go to GM, not to Ford.

” General Motors creates automobile loans. 1919, 1920, they create the General Motors acceptance Corporation. And that allows people to buy more expensive cars — by going into debt.”

Autos spurred the credit boom
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/04/17/mm_gmac/

/I’ve wondered if it wasn’t a “GMAC joker” at the wheel of GM’s ship while it ran full steam into the rocks.

(Quote)
koz Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

Your right about the price PDT. No way batteries are $42/KWh in 7 years. They will undoubtable come down in price but not that much.

But…today’s 18650 Li-ion cells are 1000 cycle, so they have the cycle life needed. The problem is high energy cells tend to be more susceptible to calendar fade and have the little thermal runaway issue.

(Quote)
koz Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

If there were a choice of “Would you consider leasing the battery as an option?” then I would have had an opportunity to vote. I think Noel response below is appropriate in that how can you draw a specific conclusion without the specifics? I suppose this can provide a gauge for what percentage of people are “strongly” apposed to the idea of battery leasing in general without really knowing anything about the specifics of it.

(Quote)
Noel Park Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

Jeff:

We drive a 14 year old Chevy every day. At the present rate, I have no doubt that we could drive it another 10 years. So, we are just going to wait this out until the volt fulfills its promise, and can be bought from MSRP less the tax credit.

In the meantime, it’s a lot of fun to come here every day and track the latest developments. And to try to help to encourage GM to:

LJGTVWOTR!!

(Quote)
-1 WTF Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 2:40 pm

Have a point. It’s a much better read.

(Quote)
cjack Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

This site is a little confused today. The main argument against the Leaf seems to be if it makes financial sense. This issue does not appear to be an issue with the same posters supporting the volt project. The only argument should be if you need a range extender or not.

On a side note, until we know the different lease options it would be impossible for us to speculate if the numbers would make sense. If you were able to lease the battery at 150/mo for a short term, like three years, with unlimited mileage the the Leaf would make sense. In three years you would have the option to continue your lease, or purchase a battery with a higher capacity than the initial battery available. The longer your locked in to your lease the less it would make sense. The problem with the Volt is that the more you drive, the more gas you have to buy, and the less it makes sense economically. If you buy a volt, with the price of the battery included in the up front then your locked in to this battery for the next ten years. This means you won’t be able to take advantage of the future improvements in battery technology for another 10 yrs.

(Quote)
Larry Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

Leasing until car-specific battery technology matures seems a good idea. I would wish to purchase soon thereafter.

(PS – Didn’t notice this was a Statik post. would have expected at least some negative tone regarding leasing…)

(Quote)
Wolfdoctor Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 3:43 pm

Interesting.

I guess in pure dollars and cents, it doesn’t make sense for low-mileage drivers such as myself to buy BEVs or EREVs.

(Quote)
+1 DaV8or Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

Sure, whatever. Here’s your free car! Of course it is useless without the battery that you have to lease from us at $899 a month (plus PB subscription fees).

(Quote)
RamZ Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

Leasing batteries is definately a deal breaker for me. I will not buy a Volt is I have to lease the batteries.

(Quote)
tom Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

Old Dude;

$14,100 is the number you are looking for. As the equivalent for a 10 year lease at $150 a month at 5%.

Above I keep people saying they dont lease, which means they don’t get it. Does that also mean they refuse to pay for their gas monthly? Do those folks buy 10 years worth of gas when they buy their gars and put it in a big tank at home.

The leasing of the battery makes sense for BEVs at this point.

If the battery costs $14,000 and will save $18,000 in fueling expenses over 10 years it would be a wash using the 5% figure.

But i still don”t want to buy a car and a battery made overseas I want to buy at least one or the other made in america with American Electrons and no foreign oil.

Not that I’m a protectionist but we have to do something about that trade deficit and stop paying our enemies.

(Quote)
LRGVProVolt Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:14 pm

I agree with a previous comment: there must be a reason for leasing the battery, i.e. they are not sure how long their batteries will last. I would go with the Volt based upon the information they have revealed on draining to 30% SOC and charging to 80% SOC. Looks like GM understands American consumer traits, and doubled the battery capacity to allow discharge and charge in the safe zone. Nissan may be faced with a problem of draining or overcharging the battery which would lessen its life. Has anyone seen any specifications on their batteries and how the vehicle is designed to use them?

(Quote)
Jim Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

I expect to have nearly 500 cycles to 85% depth of discharge on my Mini E by the time the one year lease is up. How does 1000 cycles equal the “cycle life needed”?

(Quote)
newbie Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

Leasing battery, i consider this as a TRAP, its like buying a cheap printer and paying expensive ink a month in return…

LEAF however is different, expensive shell EV and expensive lease for battery plus RANGE ANXIETY….it would make sense if and only if the LEAF is an EREV.

(Quote)
-4 Wicked Pissah Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:49 pm

I see most Volt tards wanna own Mr. T.
Good for Ya. When battery tech advances you can have that crappy 1st gen Volt crap battery. I will be upgrading my LEAF and punking your sorry butts all the way to the bank.
Stupid is as stupid does. (You know who you are)

(Quote)
-3 Wicked Pissah Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:50 pm

I agree with you. The Volt is butt ugly. Somebody really worked that bitch over with an ugly stick.

(Quote)
-1 Wicked Pissah Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

Your mirror must be working today.

(Quote)
-2 Wicked Pissah Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

You will be paying for monthly maintenance anyway on a Volt so what the difference sucka.

(Quote)
-2 CarlosG Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:55 pm

Yours will be waiting for you next year for pick-up. It will be available in many color and trim levels for your convenience. See you next year.

(Quote)
-1 Johnny Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

Better You stick with a Corolla. It would make the most cents.

(Quote)
LRGVProVolt Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

I hate to say this again, and again, and again, but it will go back up and very soon.

http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1751

But we (the country that is) save ourselves when Congress considers the Natural Gas Act in October. The bill will enable us to end our dependence on oil as a fuel for transportation in five or six years.

Possibly Nissan is considering the impact of peak oil in its decision to lease the Leaf’s battery pack. I look at it as a swap for high gas prices. Or as I posted earlier, they are not sure of the life of their battery packs, and want to protect themselves them irate customers when the battery dies before its anticipated life.. In the earlier post, I asked if anyone knows what the Leaf design considerations were for its battery. Do they deep discharge and fully charge them or do they take the same approach that GM has with 30/80% SOC. I don’t believe they do the same as with the VOLT batteries. As stated before GM doubled the capacity to insure 8/10 year life. GM may have added the cost of two battery packs to its cost formula to give us that 8/10 yrs warranty.

(Quote)
-1 Johnny Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 4:58 pm

Have you gone mad. Nobody in their right mind would ever git rid of their LEAF. It just not gonna happen. End of discussion. You are talking about one’s most prized possession here. You must have got the LEAF mixed up with that skanky Volt slut down the road.

(Quote)
-1 Johnny Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:01 pm

Don’t worry about battery price bubba. In a couple of years you can trade your old battery for a better one at half the monthly lease. Life is good for all LEAF owners. After trading up you can piss on those lame Volt owners at the local repair shop. hee hee .

(Quote)
+1 LRGVProVolt Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

They are jumping into the game early; so they can test the lease concept. If you want the car you have to take the battery lease.

The North American market will not favor this concept. It seems despite the pros and cons but forth here that most want to buy the car with the battery included. The manufacturer’s warranty would protect the consumer through the warranty. I too say KISS.

Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.

(Quote)
-9 Crack Whore Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

We know. You only do hookers.

(Quote)
-2 Jason Hammer Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:05 pm

Lease this.

(Quote)
LRGVProVolt Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:09 pm

Herm don’ you ahve to double that $7200 lease payment to get to the 8 yr waranty of the Volt?

(Quote)
newbie Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:09 pm

you are infront of the mirror aren’t you? you are talking to yourself…
FYI VOLT can upgrade batteries too! and make the old Mr. T as a back-up….happy leasing!

(Quote)
Mighty Max Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

Definitely a GAME CHANGER. Although BYD was the first MASS PRODUCED EV, the Nissan LEAF will be the first WORLD-WIDE AFFORDABLE MASS-PRODUCED EV. Game changer indeed. The Volt is strictly a high priced niche vehicle. It just the way it is fellers, deal with it.

(Quote)
Martin Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:11 pm

Not as stupid as Signing up for $150.00 a month lease thats for sure!
In my use the VOLT battery will do the 8 years and then If I want to replace the battery with x or the car it’s my option.

At least I won’t be chained to Nissan finicially as there $ slave.
The whole Better Place battery swap concept is a joke as they would never have enough fully charged batteries ready at peak periods unless they built a zillion swap stations in America or Australia.

Wicked – where are you located ? some french small tropical island or something?

LOL!

(Quote)
-2 Tommy Truck Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:13 pm

Wow, am I looking at the true Volt Killer ?

Chevy Volt R.I.P.

Car 2.0 is here.

(Quote)
LRGVProVolt Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:14 pm

For people living in Europe, it looks like a viable choice. But even for the Urbanite here in the states, it might be the vehicle of choice. For people who just don’t travel more than 40 miles a day, it would be an affordable vehicle.

Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.

(Quote)
+2 Ken Grubb Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:21 pm

If one were spending $150 a month on gas at $2.50 a gallon that’s 60 gallons of gas consumed each month. If one were averaging 30 MPG, that’s 1,800 miles a month or 21,600 miles a year.

$2.75 a gallon is a little closer to reality for me in Washington state, and 21 MPG is much closer to the average vehicle.

At 21 MPG and $2.75 a gallon, that’s 54.5 gallons and 1,145 miles a month. 13,745 miles a year.

If gas were to climb back to $4 a gallon, at 21 MPG, that’s 37.5 gallons and 788 miles a month. 9,450 a year.

Methinks that Nissan’s numbers are in the ballpark of reality. Unless you believe cheap gas is making a comeback.

(Quote)
Paul Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 5:44 pm

Your right on most of that. But it does have relation to the Leaf.

Ghosn is talking about the new Renault offerings. But one of those offerings is a Clio based car, which has identical under pinnings to the Nissan Leaf, and with the same pack.

It really is not a perfect match to any car because Ghosn was not being very specific with his words or to which of Renault’s 6 electric vehicles he was talking about, and obviously straight currency changes do not work either. But we have to take what we get right now. I think he was pricing the pack based on what the consumer expects to pay for a 100 mile range. Ghosn’s point was that the car has to make sense, and in his opinion $150 for 100 miles makes sense.

I think this gives us a good idea of what the basic pricing could look like here.

(Quote)
-1 Tagamet Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 7:00 pm

Herm,
If you want to fit 5 people in that car, they better be pretty small people.
Be well,
Tagamet

Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS

(Quote)
tom Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 7:29 pm

The volt makes economic sense only for people that can charge during the day at work or where ever to exceed an average of 40 mile AER daily. At least until the price comes down in 5 years. But the first few years they’ll only sell a few hundred thousand volts, and there are certainly enough people whose driving habits will maximize the Volts strengths.

(Quote)
tom Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 7:35 pm

I disagree, this is a marketing angle. They price their Leaf at or even under comparable ICE cars (with Government rebates included) and then they say they price the battery lease so that the consumer can clearly see they will spend less money on the battery lease plus electric charging then they would on gasoline.

Of course this will be an easy sell at $4 gas for folks that drive over 50 miles a day.

Once folks see they can SAVE money with this car and stop importing OIL, then very soon they’ll be looking at people that don’t buy these cars as unpatriotic. I read this somewhere, but I believe it. In just a few years the politically correct will look at people who buy ICE cars like people today who smoke outside of building doors or drive their Corrolla’s to work at the GM assembly plant.

(Quote)
tom Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 7:41 pm

We have cheap gas now because of the world recession. Cheap OIL is already in the history books. We won’t see gas below $4 a gallon once these EREVs and BEVs are in mass production except possibly during economic downturns.

The cheap oil is just about gone. Just the oil deep under ocean floors or in shale.

I wish people would stop kidding themselves. It is time to move on and build the future. EREVs and BEVs are the technology for now, who knows about in 20 years. And we really need to get going on renewable and nuclear power plant expansion as well. We need to invest in our economy and stop investing in the middle east economies.

(Quote)
+1 Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:11 pm

1000 cycles is the standard goal for automotive batteries, some have achieved 2000 cycles.

500 cycles in a mini would be about 50,000 miles..thats a lot of driving in a year… 500 cycles in a 200 mile range battery pack (about 40kwh capacity) would give you 100,000 miles of driving, still a lot.

(Quote)
Roy Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:13 pm

I have always been against leasing, because you pay much more in the end. I read an article about Better Place leasing in Denmark which was extrodinairly expensive something like $700/month and with a large government subsidy about $400/month for the car owner. About $90k just for the battery over 10 years!

BUT at only $150/month this looks quite attractive. I spend about $240/month on gas, so considering the lower cost of electricity (about 1/3 to 1/4) then equivalent to $60 electricity + $150 lease = $210. So yes, I would go for this deal.

(Quote)
JEC Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:23 pm

“At least with the Volt, if you pay it off in 5 years you can drop collision on your insurance.”
================================================

Your going to drop collision insurance on a 5 year old car that you dropped $32k + for?

So, what do you expect your $32k car to be worth in 5 years?

(Quote)
JEC Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:27 pm

So, I wanna buy this car sans the battery lease.

I will then stop at batteries plus and buy about 25,000 AA’s and I am home free.

/just joking, in case someone thought otherwise.

//but maybe someone wants to get rid of the lease in a few years if battery prices drop significantly, and buy a battery outright. Seems like a very likely possibility.

(Quote)
+1 JEC Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:32 pm

Tom,

I would actually believe the total opposite will happen.

As more BEV’s and EREV’s begin making an impact on gasoline consumption, the oil cartel will be pressured to compete. This will drive the price of oil down, and this is the real rub with electrics. You have to be willing to drive with electric even when it makes no economic sense, inorder to continue to drive the technolgy ahead.

Thank you to those with big enough wallets and sense to move to electrics. It will help all in the end. Well, maybe not OPEC, but nearly everyone else will greatly benefit from the early adopters.

(Quote)
JEC Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 8:43 pm

I have not been following things as close as usual. So maybe this is old news, but what are the terms on GM Volt battery warranty?

Will 8 yr/100k be a pro-rated warranty? And exactly what will GM do if my battery begins to exhibit shallow charging capacity?

This warranty needs to be well understood by anyone who jumps into a Volt. This could have so many “fine print” statements, it may make those credit card terms appear to be childs play.

(Quote)
koz Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:10 pm

Yea…what Herm said.

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:17 pm

Wolfdoctor,
Better Place has said you will not be leasing a battery per se, but buying a certain amount of miles per month with multiple options for “refills” of electrons. If you only drive low miles each month it may be better to lease than to pay $10,000 up fronts costs for a battery. Who knows, until you see the numbers?

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:37 pm

Jason I totally agree with you, but I’m sure they will be covering their dixie-cups quite well with these leases. I just want to see how much of that coverage will be at the car owners expense!!

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:38 pm

My guess is the battery will be pro rated. Unless the loss results from manufacturers defect. The Volt will probably have power related compartments marked “breaking seal voids….so on”. And I wouldn’t be surprised to see both an in car memory chip record of battery use. And also a real time OnStar record (yes, even if you don’t subscribe).

As far as the Leaf goes. It is rated 0-60 at under 8 seconds with a top speed of 90mph. One article mentions a 30k price. Perhaps Nissan will offer the total car with battery at 30k. Or, going with the basic car at 20k and a “for life” battery lease of $150 per month.

$150 x 12 months = $1800 per year

5 year battery life = $9000

15 years = $27,000

With the swift advances in battery technology. The $150 per month lease cost seems very high. Should be closer to $1000 per year. Or $83 per month. This is unless Nissan agrees to install a 300 mile range battery (in 5 years) and continue with a fixed $150 per month lease.

Selling a Leaf or trading in a Leaf will raise responsibility issues. Who first signed to pay the lease? Will a Leaf sitting on a dealer lot at $150 per month be worth it to the dealership?

Better to K.I.S.S. and sell the battery with the Leaf. Then replace the battery with a 100 mile (original) at $3000. Or a new 300 mile battery at $9000.

=D~

(Quote)
N Riley Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:38 pm

Great article Statik. I did not notice it was you until I saw the “/big help” comment. I knew it was you authoring this article then.

I spend less than $50 /mo now on gas to commute to/from work. As much as I like the looks of the Leaf and the concept it represents, why would I be willing to fork out another $100+ to Nissan to lease the battery? I don’t think I will be willing to do that. There has to be a more compelling reason.

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

I tend to agree with you there, even though I think leasing a battery could be a viable option for some. Time will tell.

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:43 pm

Regarding BYD don’t you have to mass produce a vehicle for it to be considered mass produced?

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 10:04 pm

Not necessarily, a BEV running on lead acid batteries would fit very well with your driving routine.. and if properly maintained lead acid batteries can last a long time.. plus they are inexpensive.

(Quote)
tom Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 10:05 pm

Probably nobody reading this thread anymore, but, the electric cars won’t be enough to keep the oil prices from going up. Not unless we convert diesel trucks to natural gas and convert fuel oil homes to other heating sources.

We are behind the curve. We have 200 million cars in this country alone. Even if every car made after 2015 is a BEV or EREV it will be 2025 to replace most of the cars. And we still have 18 wheelers, buses and planes.

In 2025 they’ll be looking at those shale deposits at $10 a gallon.

Certainly if we moved all out on cars trucks and home heating we could probably lower demand to keep gas around $4 a gallon for many years, but we aren’t smart enough aparently, so mr Lutz will end up being a prophet (gas at $5/$6 a gallon before peope wake up and embracing the needed changes). Remember that gas was over $4 a gallon before the world recession lowered demand. It won’t take much to get back to $4, I just hope we don’t see $5 for at least 3 years so I can get me an EREV or BEV.

(Quote)
+1 Texas Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 10:44 pm

Never say never.

1) You are saying no EESU-like device will be developed.

2) You forget that a lead-acid battery is an extremely heavy, low energy density, lead-filled product who’s sheer mass will make it expensive, just to ship, stock, etc.

I don’t know what the price per kWh devices will be in 7 years because we don’t even know what will be invented. If, however, ANY of the 100 or so breakthroughs we hear about every year do work, the price, in massive volumes, will become very cheap.

Although it’s very common today, who would have imagined a product as complex as a modern car could be bought for only $12,000 total? Wow! Think about that $ / kg.

If you look at your salary and figure out how many hours it would take for you to make that $12,000 (after tax) it might take some people only a few weeks or months. Could they build a modern car in that same time? No. Impossible. That’s the power of mass production and economies of scale. Automotive batteries (other than the small, heavy lead-acid 12V battery) have yet to reach this level.

Oh, a modern lead-acid battery can be had for around $50 / kWh. I said a grand or so even taking that into account they would be comparable. One grand is $42 / kWh and the “or so” is plus or minus $8 / kWh (lol, how do you know what I meant). Again, new batteries would be far lighter and use much less material and a small, lead-acid brick.

(Quote)
Adam Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 10:51 pm

Remember, Nissan-Renault partnered with Better Place/Shai Agassi. I like what he’s wanting to do… It makes sense, remember in Lyle’s post, they got some of the info was French, so guess where that stemmed from? Renault is the French partner.

(Quote)
Loboc Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 10:52 pm

For a lease to make sense (entire car/battery or just battery), you need to be in the sweet spot on driving mileage. If you go over, you pay extra. If you are way under, you are paying for miles you don’t use.

Since I keep cars until they are junk, there is no way a lease makes sense for me.

*Unless* it is an unknown like a battery car. I would have to look at leasing (Volt or Leaf or whatever) since I don’t know what the long-term cost will be. This is going to be the big problem with electrics. We don’t have any experience with them from a reliability-cost-resale perspective.

The main problem with a lease is ‘residual value’. Your contract may look fine, but, you have no idea what the thing is worth at the end with new technology. If you had done a 10-year lease on a 50-inch plasma 5 years ago, you would be scr#w3d. The lease would have cost way more than just buying one today.

(Quote)
Nissuck Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:16 pm

Ugliest car ever.

Will all those that vote negative on ugly comments about this butt ugly car please give back Don Ho the Hawaiian shirt. Drop 50 pounds and then….

Go press your face in dough and make asshole cookies.

(Quote)
Nissuck Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:17 pm

Ugliest car ever.

Will all those that vote negative on ugly comments about this butt ugly car please give back Don Ho the Hawaiian shirt. Drop 50 pounds and then….

Go press your face in dough and make asshole cookies

(Quote)
+1 newbie Says:
September 19th, 2009 at 11:22 pm

hey Tom, you are talking about the Leaf as a second car right? i bet your first car for long distance is either a hybrid or an SUV…

i was talking about VOLT as my only and everyday car…i hope you understand…sorry…happy leasing!

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 12:11 am

“Oh, a modern lead-acid battery can be had for around $50 / kWh.”
_____________

Got a link?

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 12:41 am

Very well written!!!!!

(Quote)
+1 jeffhre Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 12:52 am

CorvetteGuy,
I’ll keep that in mind when Denmark comes out with a BEV!

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 6:22 am

Nissan uses a 70% SOC, they have tested the batteries to have a life of 7 years or 63k miles (100,000 km). The car will be down to 80% capacity at that time and good for 80 miles of range.

That does not stop you from driving less than the 100 miles and prolonging the life of the pack.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 6:26 am

They use 70% SOC and the battery is good for 7 years or 60k miles before it loses 20% capacity.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 6:54 am

BREAKING NEWS

How did we all miss this, battery life is 5 years from the nissan web site

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/#/car/index

So I really doubt the battery lease will be longer than this.. Previous articles have mentioned 7/60 life for the battery so perhaps they are just being conservative.

Interesting couple of tidbits, the car will not have a hood.. there are no user serviceable parts underneath and the car will use drive-by-wire steering, there is no actual steering wheel shaft to impale you during an accident.

(Quote)
Xiaowei1 Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 7:04 am

I can see an argument for both sides – at the end of the day, if you lease for the 8 years (equivalent of buying the battery in price), you still miss-out on owning the battery which would probably be good for some years to come.

If you lease the battery over an 8 year period and invested the 15k, you’d probably end up with the lease being paid for from the investment whilst retaining the 15k.

for me however, I cannot see myself getting an 8 year complicated agreement to lease a battery after spending the money to get a new car – this is a layer of complexity the average purchaser does not need. Perhaps they can make this work, but in all seriousness, I don’t need a complicated agreement to rent the battery for a product i own; i might as well rent the whole car. $150 for those only considering an electric car as an option would probably be left thinking they are paying the same they would otherwise pay for fuel and still have to recharge the batteries whilst being limited in range.

I would also like to know if a rebate will apply to an electric car where the battery still has to be rented (as the rebate size is dependent on Kw battery purchased).

(Quote)
Xiaowei1 Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 7:12 am

I can’t see anyone leasing a battery for a term that would not cover the batteries actual production cost (minus any tax deductions on the batteries open to Nissan), otherwise they could make a huge loss.

(Quote)
koz Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 7:48 am

The “used” batteries could be worth more to the leasing entity than to individual buyers. Individuals would be stuck going through 3rd parties to reach the used market. Leasing agencies could sell directly to end users, e.g. utilities. This may make it practical to offer 4 or 5 year leases. This would allow a BEV “purchaser” to take more advantage of improving energy storage.

Consider the Volt: extrapolating from their statements about covering the cost of a second battery, they have at least $2-3k built into the price for long term warranty. They also have an extra ~3kwh in battery capacity to extend the life. They could offer a battery-less Volt for $27,000, before tax rebate, and lease the 13KWh battery for $100/mo for 60mo. And by the way, this could be a 5-seater with the reduced battery size. It would have to qualify for the tax rebate. Either the car buyer gets the rebate or, better yet, the leaser gets the rebate and it is a 6 year free lease. $27,000 for your 5-seat Volt and your set for 6 years. Either way the rebate goes, I’ld be willing to bet this consumer comes out ahead of car+battery purchaser. At worst, they come out about even except for the extra seat with the lease.

(Quote)
swimdad623 Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

EVnow,

You probably could have leased a HDTV 10 years back, but it would have cost $300-$500/month. That’s the funadmental problem with battery leasing – it takes the risk of evolving technology off the consumer and moves it onto the leasing company. That’s not necessarily bad, but leasing companies are profit-making businesses, and have to factor depreciating and potential technology improvements into their lease rates. If they didn’t, someone could come out with a breakthrough technology (such as EESTOR), and they would be out of business overnight!

When they have a problem like this, they have to make sure that the money keeps rolling in. They handle this in a number of ways – high monthly costs, long-duration contracts, or technical features that build a “barrier to entry” to new technology (patents, trade secrets, selective certifications). There’s a entire business model around this, and entire MBA programs dedicated to this.

In the end, the entire plan is to make sure that the leasing company is always made whole on any lease and, in an environment where technology is changing, that means that the customer always pays more than they would on a purchase.

As they said in The Godfather – it’s nothing personal, it’s just business.

(Quote)
Nissan to Lease LEAF Battery | Sequence Omega Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
+1 joe pah Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

Leasing batteries, and probably the whole car, are the best choices, since the energy density and reliability will no doubt improve substantially in the next 5 years, and the price will drop significantly.

LiFePO4 batteries in cars or any moving vehicle is new technology. Anyone who bought a digital watch in 1971, a computer in 1980, a plasma TV in 2003 saw newer models become much cheaper and better.

The batteries in cars don’t have proven longevity, reliability and the energy density is still unsatisfactory for most people. Ask anyone who owns a lithium ion motorcycle, bike or car conversion.

So why would anyone want to own something that will depreciate radically in a few years and perform poorly?

(Quote)
RollinAStogie Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

$150 is more than what I spend a month on gas. Leaseing the battery is not an option, at least not a smart option. It looks like this business plan is geared to get SUV owners or gas hogs off oil. Not for the already smart that drives a car that gets 30-35mpg average.

(Quote)
me here Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 6:13 pm

lease is a deal breaker …

(Quote)
Roy Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 7:40 pm

I wonder what the end-of-term arrangement is. If I lease the battery for 5 years, is there then a buyout clause? If I return the car to the dealership, is the next owner forced to lease? The next owner is not likely to be willing to pay the same price for the lease as the first owner, so the lease on a used car could be significantly less. They will not be able to sell the used car unless the battery cost is adjusted.

(Quote)
Jim Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 8:17 pm

“Nearly 500 cycles to 85% depth of discharge” is more like 40,000 miles. Yes, I drive way too much.

I recall A123 claiming 7000 cycles on their web site. I have no idea where you get your 1000 to 2000 cycle numbers. That sounds to me like a couple generations back in the lithium ion development.

(Quote)
koz Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 8:43 pm

High energy LiCo like those used in laptops and the Roadster. They used to be 500 cycle 3 years ago but now 1000 is the standard for them, I believe.

(Quote)
DaveP Says:
September 21st, 2009 at 12:33 pm

Unfortunately, I see three probable scenarios in the future:
1) batteries are cheap and plentiful for your car you bought today
2) batteries are only slightly cheaper and yet available for the car you bought today
3) batteries are not even available for your vehicle you bought today because a year or two later everybody else converged on some newly formed standard.

I have no idea which one it’s going to be. I’d just as soon have the battery cost up front, though. I really don’t want more monthly payments. Too much risk with cash flow for that. $150/mo is more than three times what I spend for gas on a car. I’m trying to decrease monthly cash flow risk, not increase it. I wouldn’t want to risk essentially a $40k asset for a lousy $150/mo that I’m required to keep paying if I lose my job or something. Seems an unnecessary risk with little reward to me.

By the way, in support of #3… Did you ever wonder why we use batteries of AA, AAA, C, D sizes? I always wondered what ever happened to A and B?!? My parents had an old early portable tube radio they showed to me when they heard me pondering that question as a kid. That radio DID use both A and B sized batteries. I recall one was like 24V and the other like 50V. I think one was to power the heater elements and the other to power the switching elements, but in any case once transistors came around, the standards were pretty much just abandoned.

(Quote)
Cal Says:
September 21st, 2009 at 1:06 pm

The problem is the target audience is about 40 miles a day not 200. If they have to charge everyday, the 1000 cycle will be less than 3 years of life. They are much to expensive($10,000-$15,000) for a battery every three years. This experiment will be a bust if people get wind of this.

(Quote)
JonP. Says:
September 21st, 2009 at 1:21 pm

LOL.

You came all the way here and that’s what you came up with?

(Quote)
DE Says:
September 21st, 2009 at 1:28 pm

I’m in the same boat. Most months, I get by on about 32 gallons total for my SUV.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
September 24th, 2009 at 6:04 am

I am not interested in leasing the battery.

(Quote)
Mike Says:
September 28th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

Right now I spend about $35/month in gas a month (Premium as well). When gas spiked last year, to save money (parking/gas/tolls which was about $160/month), I started taking the bus to work which reduced my daily commute from 25 miles to 6 (distance to the park & ride). There is no way I would “lease” a battery in an electric car. The end result would essentially be “Yes! Zero emissions! But you’ll be paying the same, if not MORE to be doing the exact same thing you do every day!”
With car payments and the battery “lease”, you could probably get a much better gasoline powered car for the money and still pay the same out of pocket each month. If I was given the choice of an Audi or a Leaf for the same amount out of pocket per month, I’d go with the Audi as would most other sane people.

(Quote)

Recent GM-Volt Forum Posts

Hacked e-mails reveal global-warming fraud? November 20, 2009
This is how open minded liberals operate. "And, perhaps most reprehensibly," Delingpole writes, "a long series of communications discussing how best... […]
BigCityCat
Is the Volt Engine Direct Injected? November 20, 2009
I recently read that the Cruze's engine will be DI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Cruze#Chevrolet_Cruze Obviously the Cruze's engine will... […]
omnimoeish
First Reports of the Chevy Volt's Charge-Sustaining (Generator) Mode Operation November 20, 2009
The first two journalists' reports of what it's like to drive the Chevy Volt while in generator mode operation have been published. 1) New York... […]
admin
Florida giving $5000 rebate to convert Prius to plug-in November 20, 2009
- Probably Hymotion - $10,400 standard price - $5000 state rebate - $1000 additional federal incentives - $4,400 final cost. Hurry because their... […]
Texas
New York Times CSM story November 20, 2009
Link to the New York Times story of November 19, 2009 about a test ride of the Volt in charge sustaining... […]
srschrier
New video: Volt drive in Detroit November 19, 2009
November 19, 2009 Detroit Free Press story with video featuring a Volt drive with Andrew Farah in... […]
srschrier
New Video: Volt Corrosion Testing November 18, 2009
From GM VoltAge, the Volt's corrosion... […]
srschrier

Nissan to Lease LEAF EV Battery for Under $150 per Month

165 Responses to “Nissan to Lease LEAF EV Battery for Under $150 per Month”

Leave a Reply

Recent Posts

Recent GM-Volt Forum Posts