AND 
GM Launches Online Survey: Says Chevy Volt Price Starts at $32,000 After Tax Credit
Recently I, as well as several GM-Volt.com members received an email from Chevrolet.
That email provided a link to a survey from a company called Gongos.
From the opening page of the survey:
“As we work toward putting the Volt on the road, we’re hoping you could help us out. We have a short 15-minute survey that will help shape the shopping, buying and ownership experience of the Chevy Volt. It’s an important contribution we can only get from interested people like you.”
Wow. Seemingly at no time in the past more than two and a half years has it ever seemed so close, has that moment we’ve all been waiting so long for seemed so palpable. GM is looking for public feedback to use to get ready for the Volt’s launch.
The survey takes the user through various demographic inputs and self ratings, mostly appearing to determine if we early Volt adopters are techies, greenies, or just serious.
And if we are to believe that the information provided is accurate, for the first time ever GM seems to have set a price point for the car:
“Depending on content, the vehicle will effectively cost between $32,000 -$38,000 after a tax credit of $7,500.”
It is also noted that the optional 220 V charger, which they ask if we would buy, will be between “$800 and $1500.” The Volt’s cost of operation is said to be 2 cents per mile.
In a departure from previous statements, the survey also states the Volt’s battery warranty will be eight years/100,000 miles as opposed to ten years/150,000 miles.
On one of my favorite slides GM asks prospective buyers if they are on the GM-Volt.com waiting list.
What does all this mean, and how will the information be used?
Only time will tell, but that time suddenly has gotten a lot closer.
Unfortunately I can’t give you a link to the survey as it is apparently only good one time per user via a unique ID and email. If you haven’t gotten one yet, don’t despair; they may be rolling out slowly, or just be a small random sample.
September 14th, 2009 at 6:30 am
Sadly, I didn’t get the email for this.
However, I am number 110 on the GM-VOLT wait list.
September 14th, 2009 at 6:32 am
But I still think the price tag is too high for the masses.
I wonder when we can expect a lower price for the car. 2nd gen?
Or maybe when the competition finally catches up and picks up steam?
September 14th, 2009 at 6:43 am
I did the survey too. One problem I had with it was that it didn’t have cars after 2003 listed as possible current car. I’m hoping my ‘96 SAAB doesn’t rust out. If they weren’t going to use information on prospective buyers with older cars fine but they could have still collected the info and found out later if it was useful.
I like the price hints we got. I wonder if the solar panel is an option or standard.
I hope I can convince my wife we want a first year model and that they have worked out all the bugs.
September 14th, 2009 at 6:59 am
Rashiid:
The first generation is not geared to the “masses” by any strech of the imagination.
IMHO, that will take at least another generation of the vehicle and some competition from other manufacturers. If I was looking into the crystal ball to take a guess, I would think 2015 or so before you see some real lower cost versions.
But it will be fun to see how it really turns out…..
September 14th, 2009 at 7:05 am
Still too expensive for me.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:08 am
I agree, Jim I.
With only 10,000 units, hardly anyone will have one.
I will consider myself lucky if I see one on the road.
I think 2015 is a good guess. I do hope a little sooner though.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:08 am
I don’t think the Volt’s price is going down any time in the next 3-4 years.
What was the price curve of the Prius?
September 14th, 2009 at 7:14 am
I got the survey the other day. I think the price for the 240v charger was too high but I will buy it anyway. Didn’t have my 93 Eagle Vision on the list. Ha!
September 14th, 2009 at 7:16 am
I will be waiting for used, or cheaper. Still love the idea!!
September 14th, 2009 at 7:17 am
Why in the world is the 220v charger 800-1500$ your just plugging 220v into the car from YOUR house or where ever. I would assume the 220v cord and wirering from the house is my problem just give me the connector or make it a SAE standard plug. I would think the car would manage 220v on its own and turn it off when the battery was fully charged.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:18 am
Wow! $32 to $38 (thousands) after the credit means $39.5 to $45.5 before the credit. The Volt is one expensive car. Even so, I’m expecting the first 10K to be gone quickly.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:21 am
I was really hoping Chevy would create a single price vehicle loaded will all options, so that they don’t confuse shoppers. I guess they needed a stripped down version to claim the $38,000 price.
It seems that low volume vehicles cost $45K+ no matter what tech you stuff in them.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:22 am
As I did not receive a survey, I am thinking that the survey went to addresses in the regions where Volts will first be sold. Any evidence otherwise?
/ I’m assuming that gm did not omit me because of my occasionally gm-critical comments. Will have to check and see if statik got one. (he-he)
September 14th, 2009 at 7:23 am
Brian,
Part of that cost is the electrician’s cost. They’re not cheap you know.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:24 am
Yes. Pricey but at least not insanely so. At least now we have a confirmed target to shoot for. We either save enough by 2015 or so, or we wait to find the first used one.
$32,000 -$36,000 is what I would have to spend for a new car anyway (at least to one that I like).
Me shoves more money in the Volt pile. Hmmm better save some for repairs on the current beast too.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:24 am
Cool! for the first time in my life I am looking forward to filling out a survey!
September 14th, 2009 at 7:34 am
Claiming an overall range of more than 300 miles does make me reconsider my earlier belief that charge sustaining mode would be in excess of 50 mpg. 6*50+40= considerably more than 300 miles. I won’t use the car more than 35 miles a day very frequently, but the number is important for this cars green cred. Mostly, tho, I just want to make my own energy for my car via a photovoltaic array on the roof of my home, and to stop relying on OPEC, PEMEX and Hugo for my gas.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:34 am
Not sure about the regions… I’m in Idaho. Maybe Lyle can start a list of who/where in regards to the survey.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:36 am
I received the e-mail for the survey this past Friday afternoon (9/11/09).
I live in CT and don’t expect to see any Volts on the road, let alone have the opportunity to buy one.
Hey, maybe I’m wrong…:)
September 14th, 2009 at 7:38 am
side news..Gm crosses 1 million miles in fuel cell test fleet.
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090911/AUTO01/909110395/1148/rss25/GM+rolls+past+1+million+miles+in+fuel+cell+demo
September 14th, 2009 at 7:39 am
Yeah. I don’t see this a good news. I want to be optimistic, but something tells me the price is going to be closer to the high end of this range. Seems like GM is starting to set expectations early. And I wouldn’t expect the price to go down at all. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t see how GM makes a profit by not keeping cost reductions to themselves. Especially with inflation coming. Just hope that salaries keep up with inflation for the next five years or so (which would be nice for a change).
September 14th, 2009 at 7:40 am
One would think the 220 Volt battery charger option would cost about $500, not $1500. Also the ten year warranty has been cut to 8 years.
And as noted before, Chevy needs to get the price down.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:50 am
I believe that the cost can still be maintained around $30,000 before tax credit however, the new GM is getting on down the road with the issue.
Where is the car so the public can see it? Are we now to buy the Volt on what we see on paper? Is the New GM so hooked on the foolish notion of, the NET route of advertising and sales that all we see is computer models?
I want to see the car and feel it and drive it.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:53 am
I doubt that Statik or any of the rest of us Canadians received this survey as it specifically refers to the US rebate of $7500.
Too bad, I would have liked to have done the survey too.
September 14th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Agreed, But they’ve said for a long time now that Gen II and III are well along the development process. Maybe Gen I will have a fairly short term and be “upgraded” in a couple of years. It can’t be tooo soon after Gen I or those owners will be miffed.
Exciting times in any case.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 7:58 am
And what happened to the 10year warranty? Now its only 8years?
September 14th, 2009 at 7:59 am
And if you do not owe $7500 in federal taxes you get no rebate at all.
The US Govt shelled out checks for $4500 to buy 100% imported toyota prius ,but when it comes to american products they put conditions on it that many will not meet,such as retired people ,self- employed ect ect.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:00 am
Good point Larry … NGMCO will do well to have several test drive events across the U.S. and Canada. This may be the least expensive way to get positive word of mouth generated.
I’ve said it before and will say it again. Since Uncle Sam owns both NGMCO and the IRS, the “tax credit” needs to be converted to an “instant rebate”. I honestly don’t want to hear any reasons why this can’t be done. Just get it done.
=D~
September 14th, 2009 at 8:02 am
I’m in Florida & received/completed the survey last Thur, Sept 10.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:04 am
If I can get one, I will buy one.
Number one on the list for Gen II: 5-passenger seating.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Cheaper price will probably be base with a nice set of options somewhere in the middle and the highest price being fully loaded… and since most people buy more than base I think 35-37 (after rebate) is probably going to be the range they end up in.
On another note, we’ve discovered (the hard way) that once you get out of warranty and have in excess of 100,000 miles on a hybrid the value goes down very fast as potential buyers don’t want to buy the car for fear the battery pack might not have much longer on it. I wonder how the Volt’s (at 100K miles) will end up? I don’t know that I could afford 80-90% depreciation over 5-6 years (the amount of time it takes me to put 100K on a car) on something that expensive.
So, either way, still too pricey for me. I’ll be getting something else next year and looking again maybe when Gen 2 or 3 is out. Sorry GM, you had a lot of potential here but niche market cars aren’t going to work for me.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:07 am
10,000 cars, if deployed evenly across the 50 states, would only be 200 cars per state. Most states have millions of cars.
Although that will not be how they are distributed, for a while actually seeing a Volt will probably be quite rare indeed. That may become a new function on this website. “Volt Sightings”.
And if you actually own one, expect crowds of curious onlookers wherever you go.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:13 am
“Also the ten year warranty has been cut to 8 years.” <<<I mentioned this reduction in battery warranty from 10 to 8 years at this forum last week after taking the survey on Thur, Sept 10. The last two GM vehicles I’ve owned (1982 Camaro Z-28 and 1994 Saturn SW2) were each kept more than 12 years.
This 8 yr battery warranty was therefore the most disturbing information in the survey!
September 14th, 2009 at 8:13 am
I’m not at all surprised. Clues from Weber and the 8 gallon tank reported by the FreeP suggested no more than 39mpg in charge-sustaining mode and possibly as low as 33mpg.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:18 am
The top rebate under the original hybrid program (back when gas-electric drivetrains were actually a new thing) was $2K. And this rebate was also available to GM, except they didn’t bother to build any hybrids. Well, not that people would want, anyway.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:18 am
Took the survey (very long and annoying), but I did support, and only support the GM-volt.com website for the waiting list, as the OFFICIAL SITE AND WAITING LIST. It was the first you know.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:19 am
I don’t get it either. It should be like a desktop computer with the choice of moving a 115V or 230V switch at the power supply. Maybe the Volt doesn’t have the extra room for that optional power supply. The size and weight could be considerable.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:22 am
I’m sure you’re right, Brian. For the survey, I said I had no interest in the 220V option, partly because of the cost, but primarily because I very seldom, if ever, anticipate having to fully recharge the Volt in less than 8 hrs and my garage already has a robust 20A 110 V outlet.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:22 am
kdawg
I took the survey and that jumped out to me. I had thought the 10 year and/or 150,000 miles was mandated by law. I didn’t like the price implications but the 8 year, 100,000 mile thing bothered me more.
The tax credit explantion also bothered me as I am retired and pay nowheres near $7500.00 in taxes so it looks like I will pay nearly full price.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:27 am
RB
I live in NC and I really don’t expect my state to be in the group for early adopters.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:31 am
I took the survey (Last Friday) and it appears that they are looking for early adpters that others look to for car advise. I read this as “we want people who others will follow so we can sell more volts!”
Perhaps this is GM’s way of looking for people who will get offered a Volt first #P~D.
I drive a 2007 Saturn Aura XR. A very fun car which goes 0-60 in just over 6 seconds, has very quick handling and gets around 28 mpg highway. I wonder how the volt compares (Lyle, anyone?). I would love to be more energy independant. I drive around the 40 miles per day so this would be Great.
This is my first post here. I have enjoyed everyone’s comments, but have not felt as knowledgeable (oppinionated
).
Thanks to everyone here form making this a fun site to visit daily.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:32 am
I am HOPEING this survey is full of misinformation including price and battery info. otherwise I fear the car will fail as a main stream, get us off oil car.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Two Words…
“Sold Out”
Then keep the tax break for GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles only.
and keep the tax break going till battery prices drop.
Nice move Obama for the 35% import fees on Chinese tires.
Enough of everyone making money off America and us supporting it.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:39 am
Shock Me
I agree re it being “pricey”, but sincerely hope that the price will go the way of early cell phones which were ~4K. Now they are ubiquitous and a lot of them are free. Not that I think the Volt will ever be free, but you get the idea. I’m almost AS concerned about volume, but I guess that can ramp up with (established) demand.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 8:39 am
Thanks to everyone here FOR making this a fun site to visit daily.
Yet another fat fingered person.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Over and over I hear people say that the car is too expensive yet every day I see hundreds and hundreds of Lexuses, Audis, mercedes, not to mention $35K plus Trucks and SUV’s. Now the new ford taurus is being released at $32,000 and the SHO model at $38,000. For some reason I doubt we will hear the same thing about that vehicle and the price will be the same after the tax credit – Oh except the 21 MPG that the taurus will get as compared to the cheap electric energy in the volt.
I really do believe that the volt is appropriatly priced, and I am tired of hearing otherwise while watching thousands of vehicles drive by every day worth more than the volt costs with a much higer cost of energy then the volt will have.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:44 am
You’ll have more luck spotting one of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Plymouth_Prowler.jpg
/another of Lutz’s creations, 11,702 produced
September 14th, 2009 at 8:45 am
“I don’t get it either. It should be like a desktop computer with the choice of moving a 115V or 230V switch at the power supply. Maybe the Volt doesn’t have the extra room for that optional power supply. The size and weight could be considerable.”
Not really, that switch is all that it really takes with a modern transformerless power supply like your computer and the Volt will use. Literally all you need is to bring 220v to the Volt and it will automatically select the setting.
The extra cost must be for an electrician and the fancy charging cord.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:46 am
…primary fuel is electricity…
That is a bit misleading and highly dependent on driving habits. I predict the primary fuel will be gasoline for most users as those surveys that say most drive less is utter hogwash done by surveyors on crack with visions of unicorns and rainbows.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:48 am
Brian the car’s computer looks like it allows you to program the time that you want it to charge (like starting at midnight) and automatically starts drawing current at that time.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 8:50 am
I’m with you on this Tag.
I fully expect a much cost reduced Gen 2 car by year 3 of production at the latest.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:51 am
RB,
I;;m hoping that the sample for the survey was computer generated, so no, negative comments would not have effected it (just my guess).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 8:51 am
nasaman,
I agree completely; the battery warranty reduction to 8 yrs is the most disturbing piece of info. I live in AB, Canada and fully expect that whatever form of EV I purchase, its battery life will be shortened due to extremely cold winter here.
I also thought that the battery was supposedly the one thing that was not giving them any trouble…
September 14th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Minimum Volt price will be $40,000.00
And ALL future generations will be well above this price. Anyone that thinks future Volts will decline in price needs to come an pick up their Doofus Award it will have your name already on it (you know who you are). Batteries may well get cheaper to manufacture but under no circumstance will the automaker pass on those savings to the victims (err make that consumers). Scoot out.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:51 am
oldman, I’m with you on both counts (& I said so in a post here last week after taking the survey)! After dozens of quotes from GM people over the past 1-1 1/2 years saying the battery life would be 10yrs/150,000mi, I am shocked and disillusioned that they are apparently going to warrant it for only 8yrs/100,000mi!!! For me, this isn’t just a game changer, it’s a complete “rainout”!
September 14th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Muddy,
Two to three years should also see some improvements in battery tech too.
Here’s hoping!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 8:54 am
10/150k is only for the states that follow California’s CARB standards, we are not sure if the Volt is required to meet that standard.. its not clear since that req only applies to hybrids. The warranty is intended to protect critical emissions control equipment.
We are starting to aproach the bitter end when the cars will go on sale.. I wonder how many of the old faces will remain on.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Bearclaw,
I think the price curve for the Prius was/is pretty flat. The only thing that changed is the amount of profit they made increased. I believe that they (too) lost money initially.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Prius info: looks like Toyota has chosen to continue using NiMH batteries in the future Prius in place of Li-ion batteries:
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1035185_after-extensive-secretive-testing-toyota-chooses-nimh-over-li-ion
The souce is listed at the end of the article.
As stated clearly in the article, it looks like Toyota is thinking all about the ‘bottom-line’ & maximizing its profit by using NiMH batteries instead of investing in newer, more expensive Li-ion batteries.
I wonder how this will play out..
September 14th, 2009 at 9:01 am
8 years or 100k + the >$ price is going to knock me out of the running. My interest in lowering. I think there is increasing preasure from GM bean counters for this car to at least break even on a unit per unit basis. In the early days I checked this site every day, I’m down to three times a week now.
Sad I am.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:03 am
On the ‘pricey’ front and knowning for a fact that cars are always $5k more in Canada that puts the Volt at between $45 and $50k here.
That’s nice mid model MB C class or BMW 3 series territory.
This is why it would be crazy for them to not get the retail price down ASAP. As nice as the volt is/will-be it’s NOT (and shouldn’t be) a ‘high end’ car, it’ll get passed by at that price.
I’m not worried about the Gen 1 cars moving, people wil buy them.
But to move to ‘high’ production numbers the car has to sell (at a profit) in the high $20k’s in the US so it can be low $30’s in Canada.
This is critical for it to be competitive with ‘like’ cars. At that price point it’s then competing with the Camry, Accord, Fusion, etc…
Early adopters will be all about the using no fuel, but second gen buyers will be all about saving money.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:05 am
Public Service Announcement:
That price is too high. Can you say Steep. Above top drawer. Bigger than Top Dawg. Higher than Mt. Everest. Wallet Buster. Third mortgage maker. Arm plus Leg. 401K withdrawal symptoms. Bank Robbery needed. Sell the wife and kids first. You get the picture ?
September 14th, 2009 at 9:08 am
Muddy,
OUCH. Why the extra 5K for Canadians? Are there tariffs or is the currency difference that much (I thought that that had equaled out).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 9:08 am
You know, I’ve seen one & though it’s not going to win any awards (IMO), it’s really not bad of a car! If you looks at it long enough (again, IMO
) it kinda grows on you…
Getting back to the VOLT, you’re right; I think I’ve seen only 2-3 Prowlers in the last 6-7 years, so VOLT is not going to get visible unless GM does a MASSIVE marketing blitz & PR campaign. I really hope that they do a better job than EV-1…I’m not a tree-hugger (yup, I still use disposable stuff) but I’m trying to be more enviro-conscious & the entire way GM handled EV-1 was horrible.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Herm,
That’d have to be on FANCY cord!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 9:12 am
lol
I understand totally where you’re coming from; though I’m sure my wife & kids would try to sell me first to test the market!
Seriously, maybe the $32,000 is your ‘basic’ model & $38,000 is full option model??
September 14th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Tag, many here have made the comparison to consumer electronics price reductions. I’ve always resisted answering these comparisons, but I think it needs clarification….
Moore’s law is an empirical business model for the consumer electronics industry, not a natural law. Since the invention of the integrated circuit in 1958, Moore’s law has observed that the number of transistors that can be placed on an integrated circuit chip can be doubled approximately every two years at little or no increase in chip cost. This is still largely true today, and it allows dramatic cost reductions and/or performance improvements on things like cell phones that contain a high integrated circuit content. Its “cost halving” every 2 yrs doesn’t apply to most other things like batteries or automobiles.
Thanks for setting me up to finally bring this up!
Friends still?
September 14th, 2009 at 9:15 am
It is disquieting that after several years of saying that the warrant;y would be for ten years it’s suddenly changing. It makes you wonder what other “givens” are not really “givens”.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:15 am
old man,
I don’t know about NC being a release spot or not, but your state is getting a good rep for being in the lead with plugin infrastructure.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 9:15 am
can you say…troll?
September 14th, 2009 at 9:18 am
I wish I knew but it’s a long established fact that cars cost a lot more in Canada. (Even the ones that are built here!)
Personally I like to blame Transport Canada for their crazy regulations, (Our version of DOT) but don’t know this as fact.
The Can $ is .92 of a US dollar as of this morning, but even a year or so ago when the Can $ was higher that the US $, car prices remained higher in Canada.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Sounds about right. 40 miles a day for 8 years is a little more than 100,000 miles. The accountants at New GM have been working overtime.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Well, I’m one of those semi-lead footers…if there’s kids & wife @ the back, I drive like ‘Driving Miss Daisy’ but if they are not in the car with me, I just go for the fast acceleration off the start (not rubber burning though…can’t afford it!)…though I try to stay within 5mph/10kph of the speed limit for cruising. And you know what? If I honestly evaluate my current driving habits & apply that to the VOLT, I’m pretty darn sure I’ll save a lotta gas. So while that could be a bit misleading like you said, I’d still take a VOLT if I can afford it.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Good thing your a non thinking crack whore since 70% of all commuters drive under 40 miles per day and can re charge at work so even daily 60 miles per day is 2 cents a mile.
Even those that drive 50 miles each way will burn less than a gallon and charge while working….
But hey, thanks for your input…
September 14th, 2009 at 9:21 am
What am I missing? GM has to get the email addresses from somewhere. Given the corporate rules that doubtless restrict how they can acquire addressed, my guess is that the harvested the addresses from a GM site — for example if you registered for an online chat “voltage” — or some other site whose policies allow the sale or transfer of email addresses.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:22 am
This is fun! And there is hope.
I just asked my wife, (who would be the primary driver of the VOLT), as she prepares for her commute to work, what she thought:
Her current car is a Nissan Altima SL with every option available on it. Price was $27,800.00 — I asked her if she would be interested in paying about $5,000.00 more for her next car if (based on her commute) she would not have to buy gas hardly ever….
Her first response: “How much does it cost to charge it?” — and I told her about $1.50 per night tops. Her next response was: “Absolutely! But it has to have ‘Bluetooth’ and a place to plug in my ‘iPod’…”
I think that’s covered.
One more thing for you marketing guys and engineers… She passed on the Chevy Malibu last time because the seats were “too hard”. She said especially in the back, she felt like she was sitting on a cardboard box. She loved “the look”, but said it sucked on comfort. So, make them cushie and comfortable!!!!
September 14th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Stupid
September 14th, 2009 at 9:22 am
nasaman,
I know Moore’s law addresses computer power, but almost all of the bleeding edge tech starts high and comes down dramatically – not just computer based tech. We started with couriers and are now up to a pony express level here in Lock Haven – no computers involved. Seriously, economies of scale alone will allow the Volt’s price to gradually come down. Maybe not by half in two years, but significantly nonetheless. Just another opinion.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Likewise… GM should get on the Canadian government so that we Canadians can get a rebate of some type in order to get into a Volt
September 14th, 2009 at 9:23 am
If it ends up really being 8 years I wonder what that says about the battery testing.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Dave K – I’m in CT and expect that the NY Metro Market (including CT) will be included in the first phase of the VOLT roll-out. Likely both coasts – CA and the I-95 corridor from Boston to Washington DC.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Muddy,
Well, uh, that sucks.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Looks ridiculous today, doesn’t it? Hopefully the Volt design will hold up better over time.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:28 am
We did not receive a survey, I’m ready to put down a deposit and place an order for my VOLT.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:28 am
32k to 38k, split the diffeence, that’s 35k, add back in the rebate that will eventually run out, now we’re up to 42,500, add in 1k for the price of a 230v charger (I think everybody’s going to want that) now your talking 43,500. Add in tax, title, tags and fees that’s another $2,700 for a grand total of $46,200.
If you take out the “electric drive green cred factor”, then you realize you’re sitting in a $46,000 chevy compact with average performance, that’s likely going to need a $5,000+(being optimistic here) battery replacement once every X years (5,7,10?).
How much gas money am I going to save?
Just how far down do you think GM can work this price in gen ii or gen iii?????
September 14th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Scoot:
You must be very new to these postings. Everyone here knows that the price of the VOLT will not come down over time even after the cost of the technology does. What is important is that the EREV technology proves its worth in GEN-1, and then as costs come down it becomes worthwhile to use it in a lesser expensive Chevy Cruze or Chevy Orlando or other model AND AS COSTS COME DOWN, then GM can start paying back some of that tax money Obama took from you and me both. EREV “anything” will not be profitable UNTIL it is used across several makes and models.
If you can’t afford a VOLT, just wait for the EREV Cruze, which is a better looking car anyway.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:29 am
This is good news – and even though GM has spent billions on the Fuel Cell project, it proves there is hope for a petroleum-free transport system. Hydrogen may not be viable for the masses for another 20 plus years, but driving one of these vehicles proves they are possible. I have had a couple of opportunities to drive the Fuel Cell Equinox and the acceleration is excellent, the quietness is amazing, and overall it is remarkable.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Mitch
The children seem to need to be noticed today. Hopefully it will soon be bed time and less space on this site will be used for,—-hell, I have no idea why a troll would want to post dribble in the first place. So I expect we will simply have to endure.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Under bridge dweller.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:31 am
LeoK:
I hope you are correct, but I suspect that the only Volt in Metro NY will be Lyle’s.
I think that the only east coast roll-out for Gen 1 will be the D.C Area.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Once again posters are expressing anxiety from lack of math skills. Do the math.
8 years = 2922 days x 40 miles/day = 116,800 miles
So warranty is about right. Want more than go buy an import.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:34 am
So, how many miles do you drive to work? 40? 50? 80?
The VOLT is designed to fill the needs of about 70% of “commuters”. You may be one of the ‘unlucky’ 30%… How sad for you.
Just because the car doesn’t work for you does not negate the benefits for everyone else. I will try to muster up a tear for you as I pass by while you are ‘pumping up’ at the Venezuelan-owned gas station.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:38 am
There will be at least 10,000 crimes committed on our roads next year. This crime is called Highway Robbery and the perpetrator is GM.
Gimme a break officer !
September 14th, 2009 at 9:38 am
EXCELLENT POINT. It is about time that someone sounded off on the price alarmists. The VOLT is leading edge technology you are talking about – take ANY electronic component – from Cell phones to Stereo systems to Espresso machines – there are a wide range of prices for any product. No one will force a consumer to buy a VOLT. But I GUARANTEE there will be more than enough consumers willing to pay whatever price GM ultimately decides to charge. GM will also offer plenty of other models priced for the masses that get good fuel economy and offer excellent value, like the new Cruze or the current Malibu or Equinox. The first generation VOLT is not meant to be for the masses – it is meant to prove that extended range electric driving is not only possible, but a dramatic development in the future of transportation. Once proven, then the masses will get a version priced accordingly.
Kudos to GM (and American Taxpayers) for pushing forward with the VOLT development that was started several years ago. A less informed decision would have been fodder for a 2020 movie titled “Who killed the EREV before it was born”.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:38 am
http://www.pikeresearch.com/newsroom/48-of-consumers-interested-in-purchasing-a-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle
Right here is a survey that shows the goal for Volt pricing. So take a Cobalt or Accord and do the math yourself. $32k is still too high.
If I remember correctly the tax credit isn’t applied until you fill out your tax return. So sitting in the dealership you still have $43-49k (before trade in) to finance.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Bravo. Well said.
I can’t afford a Corvette ZR-1 or an Aston Martin DB9, but that doesn’t mean those vehicles are over-priced.
If it turns out the VOLT is too high for our family budget, we’ll just wait for the EREV Cruze. Nothing wrong with that.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:40 am
You’re doubtless right that the battery and other EV components should come down in price. But that doesn’t hold for a couple of reasons. One is that the price declines would be for the drive train of the vehicle, not the entire vehicle. Things like seats and body parts and so forth aren’t that different to begin with. Two is that the underlying inflation rate is working to increase the price. From model to model cars go up in price, usually not down, because the inflation rate pushes up the costs. Even if the car costs less in real dollars it costs more in nominal dollars.
Having said that, given that GM has said the engineering group is already working on Gen II, my guess is that Gen II will be released three years after Gen I and will be less expensive than Gen I — Lutz has talked about getting the price down to $30K. Given Gen I’s price, there will probably still be rebates available. So that may be the sweet spot from a consumer standpoint.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:40 am
As critical as most of us have been concerning hydrogen in automobiles, the Equinox is essentially an electric car with a fuel cell in place of high-performance batteries. No doubt some of this research has had a direct and positive application on the Volt. In 20 years or so, perhaps the Volt program will return the favor and help launch the fuel cell auto (IMO it will be further in the future, but you never can tell).
September 14th, 2009 at 9:40 am
So going by the established financial rule that you should never spend more than 1/3 of your annual income on a car…
This puts annual salary of people who can buy a Volt at $127,500
This is the top 1% of the wage earners in the population. DRs, company executives, successful business owners….
Looks like I’m out as I make “only” $80k a year. Can anyone make a BEV or EREV for someone like me of more average means? Perhaps I’ll be driving a Leaf.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:42 am
You do realize all a tariff does is keep prices inflated for the US consumer? Actually, to keep profits margins equal expect prices to rise. This is why tariffs never ever work. Econ 101.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:42 am
What import has a warranty over 116,800 miles?
September 14th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Then don’t buy one. There will be plenty of us in line. Each person will decide what constitues value. BENEFITS – COST = VALUE.
If you don’t believe that the VOLT offers sufficient BENEFITS for the COST, then you will decide that it does not offer enough VALUE. But, I suspect that more than enough consumers will decide that the VOLT does indeed offer more than enough BENEFIT for the COST and vote with their wallet by getting in line to buy one.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:43 am
http://www.pikeresearch.com/newsroom/48-of-consumers-interested-in-purchasing-a-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle
This goes back to what the Audi guy said. The Volt price is for a premium car and the Volt is not a premium car. The article points research showing what people would spend on a Volt.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Wow, you’re not kidding about the 220 ‘charger.’
Quoting now:
>> the optional 220 V charger, which they ask if we would
>> buy, will be between “$800 and $1500.”
Um… say what? As the actual charging hardware is part of the Volt itself, isn’t this just a glorified, hardwired extension cord with an SAE J-1772 at the end? With maybe an “amps selection” button and a few LEDs?
$800-1500? Are you kidding me? Shoot, priced at $200, it’d be about $150 profit!!
September 14th, 2009 at 9:45 am
Previous posts have done the math on the “True cost of owenership”.
Granted, the initial price looks larger than it should be, but when you figure in your savings per month from not buying gas, you monthly payment more closely resembles one from a $25,000 car.
8 years of battery life is also fine with me. Given the quantum leaps being made in battery technology, in 8 years, the car will get a battery which out performs its predecessor in every category.
I fully see the day when these Volts are highly sought after, especially in the used vehicle market in 2-5 years. They will enjoy very high re-sale prices and will be seen as reliable, cost effective, and just all around fun to drive.
Owner satisfaction takes many forms. I could really see myself bragging to co-workers that my commute cost me way less than their commute.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:46 am
I signed up for e-mails from GM regarding the Volt. I would guess that I signed up at least 18 months ago. Wish I could tell you where or what site it was but it was early in my search for an electric car. Well more accurately I was looking for a car that operated like a locomotive, diesel to electric to the drive wheels. During that early search I came across the Ford concept fle3treme gas to electric to wheels and Gm-volt.com.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:47 am
That rancid smell is from GM taking a huge dump on you the average citizen.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:48 am
The following is pure ***SPECULATION*** but …
We were told some time ago that the expected price of a Volt included the cost of a replacement battery which might or might not be necessary.
The battery testing may have gone so well that they no longer consider the possibility of pack replacement to be that great — but only at 8 years / 100,000 miles.
If they can get away legally with not complying with CA rules (because technically the Volt is not a hybrid, or some other rationale), this may allow them to roll out the Volt nationwide without that severe warranty requirement hanging over their heads.
So far, this sounds like good news. What may not be so good is that by keeping the price the same as the two-pack warranty Volt, they (pick one):
1) Get to make more money off the early adopters
2) Get to bring Volt to profitability that much faster
3) Both of the above.
Neither here nor there perhaps:
It would take me about 7 – 8 years to rack up 100,000 miles with my driving patterns.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:49 am
http://www.pikeresearch.com/newsroom/48-of-consumers-interested-in-purchasing-a-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle
not a troll. Read this bit of research.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:49 am
… or a fancy electrician. *zing!*
September 14th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Who says they can recharge at work? I can look out across a parking lot that has no plugs in sight.
And your post reminds me that this site needs an “abuse” button.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:50 am
$43k-$7500 = $35.5k. Why does everyone forget taxes and the paperwork charges? MSRP of $40k equals $43k.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:52 am
We are only talking 220v single phase electricly, rectify and then a step up to the 3xxv battery voltage. The transformer won’t be that big. Actually I think its more of a probem for the 120v 20 amp recharge circuit. IMO
September 14th, 2009 at 9:54 am
I live in Wisconsin and I agree, cold weather will shorten battery life most likely. People in the Southern US will probably also see shortened batt longevity due to the heat; if anything, that’s harder on most batteries than cold. And when you factor ambient heat + pavement that’s been baking in the sun all day before you parked over it… that can’t be good!!
September 14th, 2009 at 9:54 am
http://www.pikeresearch.com/newsroom/48-of-consumers-interested-in-purchasing-a-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle
I think some research should be applied to this article.
Even with a tax credit I doubt the government can continue to offer for much longer, the car is still more than my G8 let alone a Prius, Accord, or Cobalt. This that research is correct, GM has set up the Volt for failure. Worse yet, they are wasting the billions of dollars the taxpayers didn’t want to give them.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Come now, the Prowler was built to be a Saturday night cruiser.
It’s very good for that.
Hot Rods are SUPPOSED to look fantastic to some and ‘tick off’ others!
I think they did a good job for a ‘factory’ hot rod.
Nobody bought a Prowler thinking it was going to be their primary car.
It’s a Toy.
The Volt is supposed to be an everyday car for anyone.
I see this as a big difference!
September 14th, 2009 at 9:54 am
The current Prius makes money. Toyota hits a price point where the car sells in serious volume (>18K/month, US alone, for the last two months) and hit upon a drivetrain that could be built for a reasonable cost.
They are undoubtedly planning to keep the vehicle cost reasonable and keep the profits coming. A $40K Volt doesn’t threaten it in any way, especially at 10K units in 2011 and maybe 60K units in 2012.
There’s a forum post on this development, too, and a link to a Bloomberg article, in the “Lithium Ion and Advanced Battery Technology” category.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Absolutely. Besides, many people who can afford a car like this are retirees. They may not have that high an income tax, despite having plenty of saved retirement assets. An instant rebate would stimulate sales much better.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Great point. However as the president of Audi said the Volt does not have the look and feel of a similarly priced “luxury” car like a Lexus. The Volt looks like a car priced a good $7500 less. But that premium is all battery.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Comments about the MSRP being too high miss the mark, IMHO. Price will ultimately be set by supply and demand. If supply is low and demand high, it matters not if the MSRP is $40K or $30K or $20K, because buyers will ultimately pay the market price, whatever that price is. If supply is low and the MSRP is below market price, dealers or sellers on eBay will raise the price until the market price is reached. (Some very early Telsa Roadster buyers resold their cars on eBay for more than they paid for them).
So a less expensive Volt depends on higher production runs. If GM produces 100K Volts a year, the price won’t be $40K. That is guaranteed. There simply aren’t 100K potential buyers for a $40K compact Chevy EREV.
Consequently the big question is: Why is GM planning on such a short production run. Is it limited battery supplies? Is it that for Gen I the new tech means the costs will be high regardless of the size of the run so GM doesn’t want to oversupply the market by producing a large number of expensive cars it can’t sell? (My guess). Is it that the technology is so new GM doesn’t want to create a potentially crippling liability if problems arise in a large numbers of cars? All of these? Something else entirely? Perhaps Lyle wearing his journalist hat can find the answer to this question.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:59 am
>> every day I see hundreds and hundreds of Lexuses,
>> Audis, mercedes, not to mention $35K plus Trucks and SUV’s
Unfortunately, I’m not in one of those! Yet I hoped to buy a Volt. :-/
To paraphrase what we heard a dozen times from GM, “We’re making it a Chevrolet, because we’re building them for the masses.” Whatever happened to that sentiment?
September 14th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Moores Law does not really apply to batteries, but their performance does increase, and often it jumps.
We know the Volt is based on a Cruze, a car that will sell for around $18k.. so the Volt has a $22k premium.
Out of that $22k premium we know the total battery cost is $12k, $8k is the actual cells.. the cells will probably drop 50% in the next few years and there are some chinese manufacturers already at that level. So expect a $4k savings there.
The rest of the Volt premium is $10k.. this is consumed by the two motors, the two inverters and the charger. These are unique first generation products to GM, mass production should lower their costs tremendously.. I would guess based on WAG that they will also drop 50%, thus another $5k savings.. pontentially higher with mass production needed to support 500k cars per year.
Thus a potential savings of around $9k per vehicle with mass production is my WAG.
GM has developed a unique FWD transaxle assembly for the Volt, containing the differential and the two motors.. it would really help if they could sell/license this to other auto companies.. and the serial architecture is dead easy to integrate into other vehicles.
an interesting article:
http://www.thebigmoney.com/blogs/shifting-gears/2009/09/03/talking-gearheads-great-battery-debate
September 14th, 2009 at 10:03 am
old man
I live in NC also, in Orange County outside of Chapel Hill (although I rarely go there). I think you mentioned a while back that you are in Salisbury. I roll through Salisbury every month or so going to see my grandson in Mooresville. Salisbury is a nice place.
I’m not thinking I’ll be seeing Volts anywhere in NC anytime soon.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:03 am
We paid taxes on the $27,800.00 too.
We know about taxes.
We know Arnold Schwarzennegger raised them here.
But it’s not needed for discussion and shopping comparisons.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:04 am
>> I think that’s covered.
Don’t be so sure! My better half picked up a $22k Malibu last year (a 2009) and was told it had the Bluetooth integration feature included in her options. However, it did not — it was added mid-model year and her car was built before the transition. I’m still a little ticked about that.
I don’t even -attempt- to get Volt information from a dealer; they barely know the cars they’re selling NOW.
Boy, I’m kind of a crab today. Sorry, regulars.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:05 am
old man, Regarding the tax credits, you and me both… Just another way for the gov. to avoid helping the majority of the people that this car should target.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:05 am
I’m sure you are right about the Prius losing money the first few years.
I think the difference is that because times were ‘good’ they could afford to lose more on those early cars where GM has to split the difference in the current climate.
I expect a $28k usd price leader Gen 2 Volt in just a couple years.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Don’t you think such drivers will be disinclined to by the Volt in the first place? I would agree with you if the volt were the only car in the market place and every one was forced to drive it. But we have choice. I expect the volt will be chosen by drivers who do drive less than 40 miles per day and avoided by those who drive more thus fulfilling the predicted high mileage numbers.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Its just a fancy charge cord, but by code it must be permanently wired into the existing electrical system.. so that cost is mostly (probably) an electrician.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Adrian,
Hopefully the Feds can work out a program where the Tax Credit is credited during the sale and then paid directly to the dealer. If the buyer dosen’t owe at least $7500 in taxes he’ll owe the goverment at the end of the year for the difference.
Something similar to the CARS program
September 14th, 2009 at 10:08 am
I take it to mean they expect pricing between $39,500 and $45,500 depending on what options are selected, so base model would be $39,500.
“Depending on content…”
If you can actually get the car for $32,000 after tax rebate, this is not that bad for 1st generation EREV. Don’t expect the Volt will come down that much over time. EREV costs will come down in time, but I’ld expect the low cost Gen2 to be a lower cost car all around. Something more like an EREV cruise.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:11 am
nasaman –> As a follow up to your excellent comment, I note that Lyle’s post says In a departure from previous statements, the survey also states the Volt’s battery warranty will be eight years/150,000 miles as opposed to ten years/150,000 miles. while the statement itself says 8 years/100,000 miles. So even Lyle’s fingers slipped back into the older pattern.
It is a huge change and presumably reflects some experience gained with the failure rate of batteries over time. It’s easy to imagine a big increase in the failure rate in years 9 and 10.
I also noted that it is only the battery itself that is mentioned as being warranted, not any of the associated components, and certainly not the whole car.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Cold does not shorten lithium battery life.. it actually EXTENDS it. Heat is the killer (and discharging the battery to 0).
What cold does is severely reduce or kill the ability of batteries to deliver power, and that means the genset will start right away if needed until the batteries can be warmed up.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Second thought:
Maybe this survey is just GM’s attempt to sound-out Volt demand at those prices, and they are still deciding which is in their best interests: keep the bonus from eliminating the second pack, or share it with the buyers to lower cost and help sales.
You might think that from GM’s point of view, keeping the bonus would be a “no brainer” (regardless of whether you see it as good for the overall Volt project timetable, or bad in terms of not being able to get one personally). While we’ve assumed that the first 10K Volts will fly off dealer lots, imagine the blow GM would receive if that doesn’t happen.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:16 am
That would be a Nice thing Ray, but I’m not holding my breath!
September 14th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Has anyone heard whether or not any more CARS payments have been made to dealers? Last I heard, only 2% have been paid. How this proceeds (or doesn’t) may have a big effect on dealer participation in a future program.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Without a rebate available, looks like Lutz’ Prowler was just about as affordable as the the Volt:
____________
The original retail base prices each year for the Prowler:
* 1997 – $38,300 USD
* 1999 – $39,300 USD
* 2000 – $43,000 USD
* 2001 – $44,225 USD
* 2002 – $44,625 USD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Prowler
__________________
“Novelty hot-rodders” then vs. “novelty greens” now?
September 14th, 2009 at 10:18 am
reply to me.
NOT SURE I HAVE THE FORD NAME CORRECT.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:18 am
5 passenger seating is definately on the list, but #1 is price reduction.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Hopefully used batteries from the used car parts stores (junkyards) wont be too bad.. and perhaps GM will sell reconditioned batteries at around $5k.
I assume most of you would buy an extended warranty anyways..
An engine or transmission replacement on a modern car will also set you back $5k, and its always a possibility with a used car.
How will GM know the life that remains in a used battery?.. are there smarts inside the battery case that keep track of this?
September 14th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Oldman & CBK
Tax credit NOT tax write off. A tax credit is the same as having paid $7500 to much. In other words you will get it from Uncle Sam after you file your taxes.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:20 am
I think it’s alive and well and planned for Gen 2.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:21 am
I’m out.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Could you tells us the details on the hybrid depreciation you experienced?.. what brand, how much and how old?
September 14th, 2009 at 10:21 am
My parking lot has plugs at every stall.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:21 am
They don’t trust us to plug into an ordinary or self-wired 220V outlet (probably for good reason), hence the requirement for a special, professionally installed hard-wired charger. If homes burst into flames due to improperly installed 220V service or makeshift wiring, it will reflect badly on electric cars, so you can’t really blame them.
Unfortunately, this is not all positive: there’s an outlet near the loading dock where I work (which was put in originally to recharge a forklift which now hasn’t moved from it’s spot in 10 years). I had thought I could fully recharge before lunchtime, but this doesn’t appear to be in the cards for Volt.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:22 am
A “web-based” survey. Can you say, “self-selected group?” As in, it’s not “research,” it’s “PR & spin.”
September 14th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Just increase the number of withholdings on your W4 for next year.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:26 am
so if they had stuck a Cadillac emblem on it, and some cowhide seats then everyone would be praising how sensible the new cadillac is?
What is a premium car?, definitions please.. and not tell me is just the name or the size.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Hey CorvetteGuy, from one vette owner to another. GREAT response…
September 14th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Also, China is only 11% of the import market..Other low cost off shore sources such as malaysia account for more… The tarrif will likely NOT create American jobs, but rather allow other low cost tires to absorb China’s loss, and the net result is that due to a reduction in supply, Tire prices will go up, meaning that Joe the tire manufacturer will stay layed off, and his dollar will not buy as much tire anymore..
September 14th, 2009 at 10:30 am
only a mother would care how cushy the rear seats are
I say, let the kids sit on milk crates.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Hopefully, this survey is part of a long process where GM sticks out it’s fingers to test the wind, and depending on how often they pull them back bruised, will eventually have an effect on actual figures, or advertising spin. Consider how much harder it will be for GM to do this kind of research closer to the Volt’s actual release.
There are limits to how much we should trust the figures in the survey, IMO.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:33 am
I might add (as I own a 2008 Malibu)… make the da*n trunk opening large enough to put something in it. I really like the Malibu, but the trunk opening was designed by a midget (no offense intended to midgets).
September 14th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Adrian
Not wanting to bicker but I wonder if those countrys that put up trade barriers against imports realize those restrictions do not work.
My point.
We need manufacturing in order to remain a country with a good standard of living. Other countrys know this and that is why all want to ramp up their manufacturing.
We will lose our standard of living if we continue to become more and more of a service oriented economy. Service industrys to not increase our national wealth. They do move money around for a shile before it leaves our country.
I agree tariffs hurt the poor the most but with out real fair trade the poor will have no chance at reaching middle class status for they will not find a better job and hense will remain poor.
Tariffs = fair trade, NO. But they can help when competing against countrys that have no type of epa, osha, and have publicly stated they have no intentions of implementing a cap and trade program.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:34 am
And you can’t count on the interest of those 1% who make $127K, either. Some of those people have NO desire to spend 1/3 of their income on a car. I’d be willing to bet that % of income spent on a car peaks well below that and tails off above it.
It’s also well known that most people who are actually “wealthy,” whose assets-liabilities would liquidate at over a milllion dollars, usually drive very modest cars. Not wasting money on cars is one technique that helped them build that wealth.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:35 am
So I figure I have about 14 months to win the Lottery, win a lot of Bingo games, get lucky at my local Indian Gaming Casino, or wait for my personal Obama stimulus check to come in. This is gonna be tough.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Truth in advertising troll — love the name he used. Appropriate!
September 14th, 2009 at 10:39 am
I’m sure you will be able to cobble up an adapter to plug into that 220v outlet… and if you cant you will find them at NAPA or Ebay.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:40 am
The cost of the Leaf does not include the battery. Check on costs-to-lease carefully, when they are announced. If you can live with leasing the primary power source (and your driving fits it’s hard-limited range), fine.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Herm,
I couldn’t have said it batter myself – so I won’t try. I was also thinking of cost savings as they go from 2 to 3 shifts on the same production line (and eventually more lines).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 10:41 am
lol, 240lb electrician with the butt crack showing is really fancy!
September 14th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Beef-a-ghetti called. He wants his can back.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Are we THAT late in this thread already (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 10:43 am
it kept the power engineers employed that designed the motors and inverters… those are pretty specialized.
was this hydrogen money from the fed or from GM?.. and dont make any jokes about what is the difference
September 14th, 2009 at 10:44 am
They could sell the Volt for $1.98, and a lot of people would still be sore because of “billions of dollars the taxpayers didn’t want to give them.” Nothing written here, said in a commercial, or on a showroom floor is going to change these peoples’ minds. That’s just a consequence of the bankruptcy GM is going to have to live with until there have been many, many years of unbroken trust built.
Fortunately, this “sore taxpayer” demographic does not describe everyone.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:45 am
KUD
I really hope you are correct and I might add that is how I understood tax credits. But the survey implied something totally different, more like a tax rebate than a tax credit.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:45 am
even retired people file taxes, thats all you need to do to get the $7500, you dont need a job or income..
September 14th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Muddy,
From your lips to God’s ear! That would be sweet.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 10:46 am
its a tax credit, just like if you overpaid your taxes..you will get it.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Jackson,
I haven’t heard anything since the dealers were being stiffed. The delay was really killing them (and I believe that it hasn’t gotten better).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 10:49 am
this is exactly what i have meant to say for a while now or have stated in posts here before. a car for the masses MUST be up front at the price point of the current masses price point. we all already know this point is around $20 – $25 K for the average car cost in the US. the person must be able to be granted this new loan amount, not the amount minus the tax credit. so a $40+ plus car won’t be a big hit until that price point comes into sight of the numbers for the masses. every manufacturer knows this fact.
four yrs ago, i could afford a volt. today with a divorce and me giving 50% of my net to my ex, i’m with the masses again. we need a cheaper volt. i do believe GM will give it, but given the stats of the current environment, they are doing the best they can.
i don’t blame GM for the price point, i only hope they can bring in the schedule for gen two because I WANT MY VOLT, lol.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Well the closer we get, the worse the deal gets…. The warranty will hurt resale for sure. With the cost of a new battery hanging over the head of potential used volt buyers, the resale price will have to come down. And the initial cost just seems to be out of the range of ever seeing a nice return for the excellent gas millage vs. a nice traditional car of the same size and features. Or a nice diesel for that matter. I think they will sell their units, but it is going to be more of a status thing than a smart buy thing. I will wait for the second generation or a competitor car. Bummer….
September 14th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Toyota lost money for several years on the Prius because they are long-term planners and not because “times were good”. That is one of the fundamental reasons why Japanese and Korean car companies are beating the US companies so badly these days. They are willing to take a hit in the short term for a worthwhile long term investment.
I would argue that GM is in a better position today than any car company at any time to make such a short-term loss/long-term gain gamble. They have just been bailed out by the federal government, so there is little fear of insolvency. They have just completely reorganized, so there is going to be a lot of short term loss in all their lines as the new company adjusts to its new organization. And, most importantly, expectations are so incredibly low that they are not going to disappoint in the next few years no matter how dismal their performance. Now is the time that GM should be building its long term future, rather than sacrificing everything for next quarter’s results. Nobody will really care what GM looks like next year. But everyone will care what it looks like in 2015.
And the Volt will be the ideal platform to lead the company in that timeframe. By 2015 they will be launching Gen-2 and will have a half dozen or more Voltec-based offerings. Do the right things in the next three years to cultivate the Volt and it will pay off big time for the long term future of the company.
And, harping on my favorite theme, the single most important thing they can do with Gen-1 is to get the pricing right. $32K is right. $39K is wrong. No matter where they price Gen-1, they will sell 10,000 of them. But create the image that the Volt is overpriced and you’re putting a 2 ton anchor on a rowboat.
By the way, I’m assuming that the prices mentioned are for base list price only–let GM sell as many expensive options as they want. Toyota does that–the Prius’ list price is about $20K, but it’s nearly impossible to get it for less than $30K. Nevertheless, it has the aura of a bargain-priced car. If GM really wants to make its mark, make the list price 29,999 and the sell it with $10K worth of options. That will make forever inscribe it in the buying populace’s zeitgeist as a realistic option down the line.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Were you ever in?
September 14th, 2009 at 10:51 am
We collectively weep for your misfortune.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:54 am
That will no doubt be true
… by the time I can afford a Volt
September 14th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Having driven mostly ameerican vehicles all my life – and switching to my first forign car in 2005 (Toyota Scion). Then driving 2 GM rental cars of the 2009 model year I can certainly say that GM quality is worth the price difference. I drove a 2009 HHR rental and a 2009 GMC canyon rental (while my 80K, out of warranty, toyota motor was being replaced) These vehicles were nice – very nice, luxury I never expected out of a chevy vehicle. Before running down the lack of “luxury” be sure to take a look at what GM puts out these days. Although I am moderatly happy with the Scion – I can not wait to get back into an american made vehicle.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:55 am
1) Step up before rectification. Trust me.
2) No access provided for the car’s ‘native’ voltage. This is a good thing for the otherwise-fried tinkerers.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:57 am
“Clues” are just that. Wait for the sticker (or real-world reporting) with the rest of us.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:01 am
I read this column every day and have for some time. Did not know VOLT’s ER is 300 miles. The survey doesn’t seem to qualify the figure. Is that 40 EV plus ER of 260? If so, can we assume at least 7.75/100 km (30+ MPG) all purpose driving? Tank capacity-12 galoons? In the face of announcement after announcement of sub 4L/100 km competition GM better do better. First off, GM has to revert back to its retrenched 10 yr. warranty. The Fisker GM engine can easily elevate the VOLT to super attractive. Add a 20 galoon tank (with an optional 25 or like I have 31 galoon tank) Now that’s a $30,000+ MSRP that’ll stand up. Note to GM: Pull the Chevy label off. Why not call it a GM VOLT making for a whole new 21st c. EV division – now doesn’t that show where the Converj fits?
September 14th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Let us see what BYD is going to show us. That will be benchmark for us and GM.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:06 am
1) Most of us here are waiting on later models. We still think the road is worth starting down, even though it may be a long journey.
2) diesel =/= nice. Watch for HCCI to offer a significant challenge to it over the same time period. Keep your eyes open, and you could end up in a GM car yet — and be glad of it.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:10 am
I will have to trade in one of my wives for this car, possibly even two of them. That hurts.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:17 am
My understanding is that, if your tax liability is under the $7500, you get a refund of the difference, just as if you had overpaid by that amount. I believe that statik first reported this.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:21 am
You point out exactly why the volt needs to hit the high $20’s for Gen 2.
The reduced ‘gas’ bills will level out the slight difference in car payments.
Yes I know that the financal advisers out there are saying pay cash only, but most people take out a loan to buy a car and a reduced fuel bill each month would make a difference.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Hey B.W.
Try going to college. Get a degree. Get a better job. Then you can afford one. Better yet, ask Toyota to increase your minimum ‘troll blogger’ wage to at least the federal minimum standard.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:24 am
I think you have it Jackson.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:24 am
I don’t see much difference between 8 and 10 years, because I doubt that many people will drive one car for 8 years.
little offtopic:
Today I saw Chevrolet Cruze at the street. Name of the car was proudly written on it (and it was written that this is a test drive car)
September 14th, 2009 at 11:27 am
It’s not for the kids. At least not all of the time. More for “mother-in-law” comfort. As you know, that is a critical selling point!
September 14th, 2009 at 11:27 am
I can’t see how that could happen. Especially since tax incentives should be gone by that time (but perhaps something new will be in place).
If the cost of a base gen 1 is $39.5K, how are they going to cut the cost by $11.5K (over 25%) by gen II?
I think the bigger worry should be that if the battery warranty really is 8 years then this car will be fully depreciated at 8 years as it will be a ~$4K Cruze with a pending battery replacement worth about as much as the car (assuming battery prices drop in half in 8 years, which isn’t a given). $~5K/year + financing is A LOT to pay to drive a car for 8 years.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Rockymtn
I agree with all of the above, but in addition to the Asians being better long range planners, some also have their family name on the car. When the “inspiration” is coming from a family vs a board of directors looking for the fast(er) buck, they tend to get more traction.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Sorry. If the Volt looked anywhere near as interesting as the Prowler, yes, you would draw a crowd. The trouble is, the Volt was designed to be an everyday car – and it looks like an everyman’s car. Nearly impossible for the average person to single out, because it looks so much like every other econobox.
Yes, I’m the grump who used to post here, and upset Don C from time to time. I bowed out when GM lied about the Volt one too many times, but it was the loss of the Concept Volt that hurt the most. The Concept Volt WAS a head-turner, but it died in the wind tunnel tests. Now, the volt (small V) looks like a Saturn, which looks like every other little car. Want to turn heads? Get a Camero.
“Nicely under $20,000.00″, my a$$. I’ll wait on a EREV minivan like the Orlando – provided that isn’t a lie, too. Until then, I’ll just lurk here. It’s fun to read, until someone mentions the work “hydrogen”.
Oops!
September 14th, 2009 at 11:35 am
How do you know it has “average performance”?
Did you drive one with Lyle?
GM has set the bar pretty high for the VOLT.
I think it will perform on par with a small Lexus or M-B.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Carcus1,
I’m confused as to why you are comparing a as you call it “Novelty hot-rod” to a first generation mass market car. It simply doesn’t make any sense, the Prowler was never intended to be a large production number car and it wasn’t.
Yes, GM is late to the game this is not in question, but the year one Volt prodution numbers are looking very similar to the first year Prius production numbers. I expect the Volt production numbers to spool up quickly when Gen 2 hits the streets.
So… is the Gen 1 Volt a novelty green? Maybe, but I’d like one.
I bet the Gen 2 Volt will price very closely to a similarly equipped Prius.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:40 am
DonC:
It looked ridiculous THEN! I consider myself to be a hot rodder, and I can tell you with total confidence that no self-respecting hotrodder would ever have been caught dead in one of those things. In the words of the Prophet:
“Friggin’ Lutz!”
September 14th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Heavy Troll Traffic today.
Proceed with caution.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Scoot is the troll.
The meds have worn off again and there is another personality.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Spoken like the President and CEO of Audi.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Exactly, thank you for clarifying that, people are to quick to make assumptions. If you don’t have 7,500 in taxes then you will get a nice hefty tax return people, think before you post!
September 14th, 2009 at 11:50 am
I have not received my email link to the survey yet, GM. I only signed up for email follow ups on the Volt at Chevrolet.com today. So, I am not surprised I have not received one. I would like to receive a survey link, as would most of the 50,000 Members here.
Good report Lyle.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:52 am
Here’s something to pass the time while you’re waiting:
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
September 14th, 2009 at 11:55 am
RB said: “/ I’m assuming that gm did not omit me because of my occasionally gm-critical comments. Will have to check and see if statik got one. (he-he)”
max_headroom said: “I doubt that Statik or any of the rest of us Canadians received this survey as it specifically refers to the US rebate of $7500. Too bad, I would have liked to have done the survey too.”
==================
Actually, the thead screenshot is from my survey. I FLV everything I do, in case I want to go back over something. (/nerd) If anyone wants a copy of the entire survey, I can send you the screencaps, just shoot me a email.
statik.doc@gmail.com
September 14th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Jackson:
I agree. When we see the actual window sticker, then we’ll know. Everything else is just amusing specultation.
Maybe 2 or 3 years from today, when we can actually aspire to get a Volt, we’ll all be rolling in money and we won’t give a damn how much it costs. Or maybe we’ll all be broke and won’t be able to buy one, no matter how cheap it is.
As a small business owner, I wish I could tell you which it’s going to be, LOL.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:57 am
“….mass market car.”
_____________
See my post at 29.
The prius was never anywhere near $46,000 out the door.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
“Not wasting money on cars is one technique that helped them build that wealth.”
That’s an excellent point. People with means buy assets, not liabilities. Unfortanately the car industry takes advantage of people who can least afford their cars. Hence the whole financing arm of the manufacturers. I’ll never finance a car, just to get something I can’t afford.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
If your karma has anything to do with it you’ll be buying several Volts!
September 14th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
I’m a little stumped now by this….
“the consumer needs to owe at least $7500 in federal taxes.”
Does this mean if I am scheduled to get back a “Refund” that I can not get this rebate? It sure sounds like it.
“8 year/100K mile warranty”
WTF? What happened to 10yr/100K? Will this reduce the cost of the car if the warranty has been discounted?
Let’s look at the future WHEN our great Volt is released to the public. It will get scooped up by early adopters, Life GM cutomers/supporters and some “Greenies” as well as “da rich folk”.. This should cover the first 24 months. So great, the rich folk get to use the rebate.Which means the price tag of over $32,500.00 (After Rebate as everyone claims) is still way more than Pat Q Public can afford. Not so good for us Pat Q Public because “da rich folk” used all the Reabate funds.
So now let’s look at the further out future to Gen 2. Lets’s assume that when Gen 2 is out, there will most likely be some price reduction down to the tune of $32,500. This is great but there will most likely be no rebate available so again, Pat Q Public will be left out in the cold because it’s still not affordable.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
“I think it will perform on par with a small Lexus or M-B.”
_____________
That’s a joke, right?
September 14th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
I think it’ll be a while. BYD is still Qualifying in NA crash tests. After that, if there are any minor issues it’s back to tweaking their car F4DM then back to crash testing. My SWAG is around early 2011.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
A base Volt after tax credits costs the same as a loaded prius, nice!
September 14th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
You are absolutely right Noel!
But since no self respecting hot rodder BUYS their hot rod in the first place I don’t see this as relevant. That’s why they have a garage and a welder. I DO count kit cars as hot rods because there is a lot of ‘love’ required to bring them to ‘life’.
I put the Prowler in with any of the ‘built’ hot rods out there.
It’s a LOT less money than most of those and is dealer serviceable which is the kind of thing that appeals to those same people.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Nah maaaan…
Jus Pimpem out.
If you start now you’ll have enough to pay out in full by late 2010.
Unless of course they look like this…
http://www.clubfrontier.org/forums/avatars/noggin-14462.gif?dateline=1230681447
September 14th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
300miles per full tank is a federal standard all cars must meet in the US. I think.
Can anyone else confirm?
September 14th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Ain’t that the truth CorvetteGuy!
September 14th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
I got the survey as well. Did any of you get the Volt order form right after that? Select model, color, trim, volt option of 110 or 120…?
kidding, just kidding, no order form
September 14th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
I’m out too until Gen 2!!!
lol….
Lookat me rhyme….
September 14th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Dude, I think it’s all of the above EXCEPT the “limitted battery supply”. LG has already claimed it can deliver enough cells for GM to produce 30K cars in the first run AND they are already supplying other OEM’rs cells.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
ok
rehash of a base education for the trolls that harp on cost.
1- ROI on any car based on efficiency will never be acheived over the average life cycle.
2- If cost is all AUDi, BMW, M-B, Ferarri ad hac ad infinatum ad nauseum would have no business case. Yes thay are all performance, luxury whatever more than a Yugo, or Tata nano, but what is the justification for an additional 80,000..is it really THAT important? to some yes it is…
3- initial technology costs more..think VCR’s, Cell phones, plasma Tvs etc.
4- if you are concerned about environment..take a bike or bus..a car is not your best choice
5- if you want greater range without using gasoline..ride a bike, any car is not your choice
6- if you feel you cannot justify the price, based on savings in fuel costs, see #4, Any car is not your choice.
The Volt is very different, and is(IMO) the first TRUE intermediate step between Ice and Bevs..Synergy drive is good, but does not eliminate the need for ICE, even the new Prius PI fails to deliver what is needed for the NA driver although it will fit nicely into Euro driving as I believe most commutes daily are less than 12 miles..in the USA and CAnada, our area is too great. Which is why EREV, no range anxiety vehicles make sense where the fast fill for electrics does not exist.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
rockymountainhigh…
I meant that because times were good in the late 90’s and they were ‘dripping with cash’ they could afford to take deeper losses on their first gen Prius than GM is in a position to take now with the Volt.
Although I’ve never been a toyota fan I do give them credit for blazing the trail toward more efficent future cars.
I see your point about pricing the Gen1 vs the Gen 2 Volts.
My feeling is that anyone buying a Gen 1 Volt knows full well that they are buying a limited production leading edge car and they will not be surprised at a price drop for Gen 2.
People are not dumb, they will look at the MSRP for the Gen 2 Volt at $28k usd, (with no allowed dealer markup) say that’s a good deal and buy the car.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Good to hear from you statik!
Don’t be such a stranger!
September 14th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Yeah, I was thinking about cobbling something together too. Except the on board charger will read the connection as a fault and nothing will happen.
Then I remembered parts of the explanation that Martin Eberhard had for the reason that the high power charger conversion for the Tesla Roadster is so expensive; here at this link. ( http://www.teslafounders.com/ )
If the link interests you, click on (more) at end of “The Roadster Foundry Mobile Charger” and scroll all the way down to comment # 6 for an explanation of costs.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
I stand by my $28k usd Gen 2 prediction.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Unless you love your mother in law bro that’s cool. But for me, the inlaws get the milk crates!
September 14th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Heh heh…
September 14th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
I’ve had 2 out of 3 of my cars over 8 years.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
That’s only when…
“the consumer needs to owe at least $7500 in federal taxes.”
Not exactly know what that means but it don’t sound good for low income folks that get refunds every year.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
The part that we ’still’ don’t know is how much (little) fuel will the volt end up using.
For example, I currently put about $160 a month into my Malibu’s tank for daily commuting. If the Volt really CAN do the commute without gas then I can ‘handle’ a bigger monthly payment without impact to my lifestyle.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
I made a post about this this morning – #3, but it went to and is still in moderation. I have no idea why!
I did not get the e-mail. I wonder if the spam filter did not let it through………..
Very curious.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
“I think it will perform on par with a small Lexus or M-B.”
I don’t see the Volt classified with those cars at all. The only thing close to comparison is cost. Lex or MB are “Luxury” thangs. Are you telling me that the interior will be as luxurious and spacious as the the Lex or MB?
I know in a Lex you can get pretty confortably freaky in the back.
I’ll letcha know about the Volt when/if I get one.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
DonC:
Well thanks. That’s the nicest thing anybody’s said to me since I can remember (I think, LOL). Right back at ya! My GM-Volt.com enthusiasm is rekindled!
Right back at a whole bunch of you, come to think of it. If GM could bottle the loyalty and enthusiasm here, they could sell it for BIG bucks.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Sounded more like a challenge to me.
Are you listening Frank?
September 14th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
But even people with money won’t buy one if they have three kids.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Corvette Guy:
Right. Just ignore them long enough and they’ll go away on their own. That’s what our mother taught us anyway. You’re really on a roll today. Don’t wast your creative energy on these guys.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
My last 2 cars I had for 10 years. I sold the Civic at over 130K miles because I didn’t want to keep paying on insurance and it was just sitting there cause I was driving the Saturn till it dies. It still lives….lol.
Of course most of us here do keep cars longer. I’m sure you’re right that most don’t keep their cars that long. Why? Because they keep trading them in for a better looking car or for the latest and greatest or in many cases they need a larger car for the growing family. In those examples they are the ones who are always in debt. If you keep you car longer then the loan tenure, you’ll learn to enjoy not having car payments. It feels much better than the guy driving the latest and greates but is n debt to his ears.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
At this point methanol fuel cells look more practical and possible and sustainable.
I do apologize M. R., it’s just an incipient thought, not a final judgment.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Corvette Guy:
That’s what I’m talking about. Excellent comment! As much as I gag over sticker shock, any kind of a car that you really want to buy costs $35K. I hate it, but it’s reality. We paid $24K for our ‘95 Impala. I figured out the other day that that’s about $35K in today’s money. We thought that it was a hell of a deal, and still do. And it is about as simple as a stone ax compared to a Volt.
You are doing a good job of helping me talk myself into it, LOL.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
what would you expect from Li-ion battery? Actually, I will be surpised it could survive 8 years before losing 50% of capacity. Future will tell.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
But even people with money won’t buy one if they have three kids.
——————————————————————–
No arguement there unless they were buying it as a commuter only car.
/ No, I can’t afford a dedicated commuter car either, but there has been lots of talking about them here.
I still think the biggest issue is pricing for Gen 2 ($28k usd) but seating for 5 is pretty close to the top of the list.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
That is correct, you get the $7500.00 taken off of your paid+owed taxes. If that turns out to be a negative number, then you get the difference back..ie.. paid $4500.00, IRS owes you $700.00, tax rebate $7500.00 = a $3700.00 check to you from the government. A tax deduction is different. Tax deductions are only worth about 14~19% of the original amount. This means if you donate $100.00 to your church, the government will grant you $14~$19 dollars off your income tax owed. These are general terms but you’ll never get 100% or even close back on a deduction. If the $7500.00 was to be considered a deduction, and not a tax credit then I wouldn’t be looking at the Volt at all.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
If the battery warranty is prorated, I don’t see much for a consumer to gain from years 9 to 15 on a battery warranty any way. Looking at the residual value of an eight year old battery, how much value would be left on average? What then would be the pro-rata share returned for a 13 or 14 year old battery.
If you look at the battery warranty like, in 14 years I can get $12,000 or the current value of a new battery, I think that’s really optimistic.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
That’s a great explanation. Thanks for the link, jeffhre! +1 to you.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
I too live in CT, but I suspect they got a list of folks who signed up to get emails about the volt on the gm.com site.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
I agree, Chevy != Lexus. No way.
Upscaling Chevy is another stupid idea from GM, they should have seed it under Cadillac. For me Chevy is $10k car brand.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
I very rarely get 300 Miles per tank – dont know if its a regulation or not. I typically get about 270 miles on 8.75 gallons (thats when the low fuel light is on in my XB)
I dont think I would want to drive 300 miles without stopping to pee…
September 14th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
If so, then I retract my statement. I inferred (maybe incorrectly) from others’ statements that you had to have $7500 in tax to be credited against.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
I think what GM said is that they expect the battery to LAST for 10 years or 150k miles, not that they would WARRANTY it that long. I think that is extremely reasonable. The price may seem high initially however if you take into consideration that over the course of 8 years or 100,000 miles, you could potentially spend next to nothing on gas (since most of us drive less than 40 miles a day). That alone would save you $12,000 in gas (based on $3 a gallon gas in an average mid sized sedan getting 25mpg) Presuming the battery lasts 150k as expected it could save you much more. I don’t think this warranty is unreasonable at all. We all expect our cars to last more than 36,000 miles however that is when most factory warranties run out. In this time of bailouts and “gimmes” it seems like everyone has unreasonable expectations. I applaud GM for being a trendsetter in this category and for the first time in a long time, actually putting their finger on the pulse of our country to see what we actually want in a car. I do hope that over time and with mass production, the price will come down though… I know I can’t afford a $32,000 car… let alone 38 or 42k.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
welcome to the VoltMeOut club
September 14th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Later generations have long (at least over a year) been expected to provide 3 across seating in the back. The expectation is that by Gen II or III, the cells will be capable of the same capacity battery pack in a smaller space: small enough to remove the rear part of the ‘tunnel’ without sacrificing performance. It would weigh less too, so lugging around Junior wouldn’t cost you AER.
Not having kids, I’d be just as happy for them to keep the rear tunnel, and stuff it full of the higher performance batteries (for longer AER). Maybe one of the other Voltec cars will give that concept a shot.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Hey, you just sell your house and buy a Volt – it’s THAT good
September 14th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
I think last week, something like $1.8B, or 40% to 60% of the expected claims, were paid, and LaHood said that by the end of the month all the claims would be processed.
If things hadn’t gotten better you can count on the fact that we’d be hearing more. Auto dealers aren’t the shy and retiring types.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Why should a LEAF that is totally dependent on a battery, not have to have a warranty on how long its battery will last? Yet a VOLT must by law warranty its battery for 150,000 miles of life, or an life of 12.5 years based on the average annual driven miles of 12,000 miles per year?
That is absurd.
Especially as the CARB regulation that forces a domestic VOLT to be warranted that long does nothing to protect a consumer or purchaser of the foreign LEAF, or a Tesla. It estimated that the extra cost can ADD as much as $8,000 to $10,000 to the price of a VOLT. Instead of a VOLT costing a probable $30,000 to buy, it has been inflated to an anticipated $40,000. Instead of $22,500 after a $7,500 rebate it will probably be $32,500 because of this stupid one-sided regulation. Once again, a typical government agency screw-up, that does more harm than help. An agency that is supposed to be encouraging cleaner cars such as electric cars, is in reality punishing them, and retarding their acceptance.
CARB needs to reform its regulations. It should put in place an even playing field,for all types of electric cars. The BEVs like the LEAF, or Tesla should have a reasonable warranty on their batteries like say 120,000 miles or an expected 10 years of life for the average 12,000 miles per year driver. Similarly, the regulation on the VOLT or Plug-in Prius should be reduced to conform to that reasonable 120,000 mile or an expected 10 year life.
VOLT proponents here ought to get behind this regulation change. Bring on the more inexpensive VOLT !!!!
September 14th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
______________________________________________________
An alternative Volt explanation/survey preamble:
The Chevrolet Volt is an Elecric Car.
The Volt is a four passenger front-wheel-drive car with the smooth performance characteristics of a refined sports sedan having spirited acceleration. The engine that turns the wheels is an electric motor.
The Chevrolet Volt’s battery can be charged overnight at home (similar to charging your cell phone).
The Battery: On a full battery charge, the Volt can travel a distance of about 40 miles without using gas which is a range that covers the average daily miles driven by most drivers. The electricity cost of plugging-in the Volt to charge is about 2 pennies per mile which is cheaper than using gasoline at today’s prices. The Volt’s battery will be backed by an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty.
The Range Extender: To give Volt drivers the ability to travel beyond the Volt’s 40 mile battery range, the Volt contains a highly efficient gas powered electric generator that smoothly turns on after the Volt’s battery charge has been consumed. This extended range feature allows the Volt to be driven on long distance trips without needing to worry about running out of battery power.
The Volt therefore has the ability to drive under zero emissions all electric power for most of your driving needs while maintaining the flexibility of utilizing an efficient gas electric generator to drive extended distances.
The Chevrolet Volt goes on sale starting the Fall of 2010.
The Volt will cost between $32,000 and $38,000 after a tax credit of $7,500. (There is no income/AMT limit on the tax credit; the only requirement to receive the credit is you need to owe at least $7,500 in federal taxes).
______________________________________________________
September 14th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
DonC
I was sure that that post would have been Corvette Guy (g). Wrong yet again. sigh.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
$1500 for a charger? GM is out of its mind.
On the other hand if they could milk $40k for a Chevy, why not profit 10x on a charger?
September 14th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Did I mention I meant 300miles per tank “Highway”?.
Yeah, I agree. After a while it’s no longer MPG but MPB/B (Miles Per Bladder/Bowels).
September 14th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
The Free Press reports an 8 gallon tank. In front of witnesses, Frank Weber was asked if one could drive the Volt from Detroit to Chicago without refuelling. He said that he wasn’t familiar with the distance from Detroit to Chicago but “if it’s 300 miles, you should be OK.”
Let’s do the math:
300 miles – 40 miles EV = 260 miles on gasoline.
260 miles / 8 gallons = Oh, My! I can’t bear to look!
GM has been asked about fuel economy in charge-sustaining mode in several forums, in very plain language, and they have replied with nothing but vagaries and obfuscation.
My prediction: People who are expecting 50mpg in charge-sustaining mode are in for a rude shock. I expect that on trips over 160 miles, a Prius will use less fuel than a fully charged Volt. And it could well be that the “breakeven” point is much, much lower than that.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Off topic,
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — A123 Systems, an eight-year-old battery builder launched by engineers from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, could attain a market capitalization of nearly $1 billion when it goes public later this month.
That’s not bad considering the company has yet to turn a profit.
Watertown, Mass.-based A123 Systems plans to offer 25.7 million shares at an estimated price range of $8 to $9.50 a share, in a bid to raise about $225 million with underwriters Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Actually I think it is the battery … the cost of the battery. It’s a big number, and, since the battery cost is mostly in the materials, you can’t drive those costs down with “volume production”. I just think that given the high cost of the battery, GM is trying to figure out how many compacts they can sell at $45K. Keeping production numbers down ensures they don’t have an inventory problem and limits the losses on each vehicle.
If they could sell 50K at a profit I suspect the first run would be a lot higher than 10K.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
In order to get a refund, you had to put $ in. If you paid at least $7500 in taxes over the year, just add another $7500 to your refund. That is the way I understand this. If you did not pay any taxes, you cannot take the refund.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Jeffhre
All I would expect is a battery exchange for one that would still take a charge. Either that or enough new cells to take enough charge to get me back to 40 miles in EV.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
I keep my cars as well. My current car is 12years old. I’m the original owner too.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
My statement of concern was from the wording in the survey.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
CDAVIS,
There is absolutely no way your version of the announcement could ever be used. It is way too clear and organized into logical paragraphs designed to explain a single function. Where are the sentences intended to confuse and restate what has already been stated. I don’t know why you would even bother to present us with such trash as this!
lol
September 14th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Yes. I have signed up to get these e-mails…I have had several updates over the past several months, but these e-mails really don’t tell me anything that I don’t already know from GM-Volt.com
September 14th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
I think you need to have paid at least 7500 in taxes though. If you didnt pay any taxes, you cant take the $7500 refund.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Yeah, I already had the electrical circuits installed a year ago. It was about $1400 to have 2, 30A/240V circuits installed but I also had the panel upgraded so that was some of the cost.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
GXT, not sure what you are saying couldn’t happen (i got lost trying to follow the posts), but aren’t the Tax incentives in effect for the first 250,000 units from each car manufacturer? If that is the case, i can see these lasting for some time.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
I was thinking along those same lines. I could see paying $250 – $300, but that is tops. Other than that, I would just use the regular charger provided since 99.9999% of my charging will be done over-night. No big deal. Maybe GM realized that the vast majority of us would settle for the over-night and decided to “soak” those that had to get the faster charger. Let them just go ahead and do so. It won’t be me.
September 14th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Herm
Thanks for the article link. Interesting debate – and yet another person speculating that the Volt will be closer to 30K than 40K.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Believe me, if the VOLT were $25,000 I would be much happier, but if I have to ’step up’ to make the wife happy…. well, that’s the price you pay when you say “I do.”
September 14th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
The best thing here is to let the market place decide. If a company offers an electric vehicle and the batteries do not hold up for a substantial period of time based on their projected life, buyers will not purchase those vehicles. Sooner or later the company will produce a quality battery or go out of business. Market forces are much better than regulation forces. Regulations usually do not allow for any flexibility. And are usually written by people who do not understand market forces or even cares about it.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
I have my son’s car seat in the middle now. I hope Chevy puts some anchors in the middle to do the same thing with a car seat in the Volt or it would be disappointing.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
You guys could be right. You could be wrong too.
I’m waiting for MY invitation to the first regional ‘ride-and-drive’ before they bring them to the dealership. Then we will see.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Both my cars are over 10 years old. Can afford to by buying cars every 5 years.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Yes, I believe that is how it works.
As an example, If you and your wife earn say $67,900 throughout the year, you would have paid $9,350, in this case you would certainly get a refund of $7,500.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
I think all auto surveys (quality or satisfaction or whatever) are basically “self-selected” groups. These people, as owners, have a “dog in the fight” as well.
Thats why I put no value on any of them. Including Consumer Reports.
As far as PR or spin, that depends on your agenda. We all have one.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Captain
I WILL NEVER AGAIN GO TO A SITE MENTIONED BY YOU!!
I’m old and that was not good for my heart.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
A 14 year old battery may have some value left for stationary uses, but in replacement value in a vehicle you may get what, enough returned to you to pay for the destination charges for a new one and maybe the cost of a nice meal while you wait for the technicians to install it? I’ll leave that up to the accountants here to calculate.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
More mental midgets with agendas.
Apparently someone who has never driven a chevy, or at least not in the last 25 yrs. JUST the kind of person to take advice from on 2009 chevy cars.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
In a world where all kinds of people exist, it takes all kinds of vehicles to satisfy their needs. Who are we to say what someone should or should not drive or ride? I could care less what the next guy drives or how he motivates around as long as I do what I think is in mine and my family’s best interest. Of course there are many people in this world who would like nothing better than to dictate to you what you can and cannot do. We elected a big batch of them in the last few elections and they associated themselves with more of their kind. We have not seen the bad part of it yet. Just wait…. its coming……
September 14th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Well only two can ride in the back anyway. If you have 4 and get rid of 2 you are golden!
2 wives MUST SELL. Burhkas included!
September 14th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I have kept all of my cars (all GM) more than 13 years each. I have no intention to change that trend now.
Why replace something you enjoy driving?
Driving should be enjoyed; its not punishment….
September 14th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
There is one very important number that can’t be factored into your calculations, and that is the loss per vehicle that GM will be having with the first generation Volt. That number could potentially eat up a lot of that 9K savings per vehicle that you came up with. Also being in the business of making money as well as cars they will need to add a couple of thousand dollars for them selfs.
Just a thought.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
My order form did not come with the survey. It was mailed to my home by registered mail. I filled it out and sent it back the same day. Easy order process. Just name the dealer to handle the Volt when it comes in and pick out the options to include. There were not but two vehicle classes and only the top class had any optional equipment. Not but five items you could chose for options. Option price was not listed. Separate mailing would notify you later of the final cost and give you a link to go on-line and make modification. Have to finalize the vehicle by April 1, 2010. I think Statk has his mailed back also. Color option was not available. Would be done a finalization. Apparently color is not finalized yet. I know they will offer white, sliver and black. Basic three colors everyone offers.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Again with the comment awaiting moderation junk. To heck with it. I am through.
April 1, 2010. You got it didn’t you?
September 14th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Ford?
September 14th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Look at your last year’s tax return. Check the box that says amount you owe BEFORE you subtract the amount withheld over the year from your W-2. If that exceeds $7500 than you will get the full $7500 credit amount as part of your refund check.
In this case you can’t get a check for more than your total tax liability.
One of the few exceptions is the Earned Income Tax Credit which acts as a form of income redistribution. (At least the last time I looked into the issue for my niece.)
So say for example I owe $9000 to the gubment based on my taxable income. I had $8000 witheld from my paycheck. So ordinarily I’d have to write a check for the difference of $1000. But in this case I add the credit of $7500. So instead of paying the gubment sends me a check for $6500.
If I overpay at say $9500 in withholding the government sends me a check for $8000.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Luke,
Cute.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
“Why should a LEAF that is totally dependent on a battery, not have to have a warranty on how long its battery will last? Yet a VOLT must by law warranty its battery for 150,000 miles of life, or an life of 12.5 years based on the average annual driven miles of 12,000 miles per year?”
I asked that question before. I agree, it’s absurd. The only thing I can think of is it’s because the Volt has an ICE in it and therfore must meet “Drivetrain” warranty or some sh|t like that. BEV’s don’t have an ICE and maybe exempt from such a warranty per CARB because that was put in place for ICE cars. OK, that’s a full SWAG on my part but if anyone can chime in to confirm or correct please do so.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Capt Jack,
I see you have it pretty much figured out. Especially about the tax credit and who is going to get it. Nice how it works out that way – even with democrats writing the bills.
If you pay taxes and the $7,500 tax credit does not make you go inot a negative position with the IRS, your $7,500 will be added to whatever refund you are already due. As an example: Say your taxes due were $9,500 and you paid in $10,500. Your refund (before rebate) would be $1,000. Now reduce that taxes due by the $7,500 and now it says you are due to pay only $2,000 in taxes. Now your refund is the original $1,000 plus the $7,500 or $8,500.
Does that make sense?
You would get the rebate or part of it that does not cause your taxes you end up owing on your 1040 form to become less than zero. Uncle Sammy is going to give you the tax rebate (or a part of it) as long as you end up owing either some tax or no tax. The taxes owed computation cannot be less than zero. You continue getting any “refund” due to normal tax computations. And some or all of the $7,500 up to the time your tax liability becomes zero or negative.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
kdawg,
I think you’re right about the rebate covering the first 250K vehicles. Even at 60K/year that goes a long way.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
September 14th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
The Volt itself will not come down in price, that would hurt the earlier buyers and the resale value of the used Volts.. but the parts bin that GM developed will be used in other cars that will be lower in price and hopefully profitable.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Their statement is grossly misleadingg because it says you must “owe” not if you have “piad in taxes….” for that year.
To me “owe” means on April 15th you have to “owe” money to the feds to the tune of $7500+ to be able to use that rebate.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
You must understand the law was written to “favor” BEVs over ICE vehicles. Volt-like vehicles were not in existence or on the drawing board at the time, I believe. It was a way to force manufacturers to bend to government’s using coercion by regulation. Just normal business practices by government in an attempt to reduce tailpipe emissions. Nothing strange here. Not that I agree with it.
September 14th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
So…..
Are there any Tesla owners here reading this? What did they get/do? How did it work for them?
September 14th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Shock Me actually explained it better than I did.
September 14th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
I don’t know Capt Jack. There are some that would probably go for even that person (?). In this world it takes all kinds. They say there is a woman for every man and a man for every woman. Problem is: What the heck was that?
September 14th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
If you get to drive it, take pics and videos and post it bro!
September 14th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
No, I like Capt Jack’s idea of pimping them out. They could set up shop by going to the nearest ACORN office and get housing and tax evasion help. lol..
September 14th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Don’t be stupid, My second car is Chevy Prizm 2001 exactly because of the reason I mentioned.
September 14th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Well…technically when you fill out your 1040 you fill in the amount you “owe” and then subtract the amount that you have already paid.
I imagine that somewhere there is another line to subtract the $7,500.
September 14th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Yeah, we got it “April Fools”!
September 14th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
CDAVIS…
You are going to get jumped on by somebody for saying it clearly… some marketing ‘expert’ just has to be really ticked off right now!