The Chevy Spark is GM’s new upcoming mini car that’s one step smaller than the Aveo.
It is a stylish little car that powered with either a 1.0 or 1.2 L engine will be able to deliver a combined fuel economy of about 50 MPG.
There are now reports that REVA, an Indian electric car company, may actually be teaming up with GM to produce an all-electric version of the Spark. The car would be produced for the Indian and other selected markets.
If true, this would represent GM’s first joint venture since emerging from bankruptcy, with terms of a 50:50 partnership. A final decision supposedly awaits approval from Detroit.
GM sources would not either confirm nor deny this report though claim it to be speculative.
Using REVA to supply the drivetrain would allow significant cost savings permitting GM to sell the pure electrics at a low price point.
It is not clear from the article whether the pure electric Sparks would ever find their way to the US, though GM has already stated it intends to launch the gas-powered Spark in the US market in 2011.
Of course with a name like Spark, its fuel source could go either way.
Currently pre-production Sparks are already in the hands of GM employees who are driving them around Detroit. One person with this experience told a group of reporters it was a really fun, capable and comfortable little car with motorcycle-like interior cues.
Source (Economic Times)
This entry was posted on Sunday, September 13th, 2009 at 8:07 am and is filed under BEV. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Sep 13th, 2009 (8:10 am)What is a REVA?
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Sep 13th, 2009 (8:13 am)Will this compete with the Corolla Hybrid?
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Sep 13th, 2009 (8:27 am)Reva is an Indian car manufacturer of electric cars. They currently make the G-Wiz, a small electric vehicle sold in the UK which is classified as a quadricycle there. http://www.revaindia.com/
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Sep 13th, 2009 (8:33 am)It looks like closer to a Yaris. “Spark” sounds like a “Mini Volt”.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (8:34 am)It’ll be interesting to see how it does on the crash tests.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (8:36 am)MPG expectation above is quite the typo. It is really 40, not 50.
Also, the 1.2 liter engine will do 100 km/h in 12.4 seconds. So, you can imagine how the less powerful, smaller engine will be accepted here. That doesn’t position Spark well for this market.
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (8:41 am)Indian manufacturer. This is just a way for GM to enter the Indian automarket.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (8:44 am)john,
That speed is pretty much glacial. I agree that it’d be a tough sale in the US.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (9:06 am)The extreme reduction of size & power is very much like the 80’s.
Fortunately, this time will be different. There is already a dramatically better solution already on the road in large numbers.
So, you can’t imagine the acceptance being the same.
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (9:13 am)Wassup with the Audi electric ads for 9.15.09? What is coming? Kinda Ironic if it is a EREV.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (9:24 am)its a lot smaller than a Yaris.. I think the Prius plug-in will become the standard for Toyota, allowing them to crank up the cost a bit into $27-32K range.. the Yaris hybrid will be next at a lower price point and compete with the Insight.
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (9:29 am)I still like these small cars.. very handy..and you really dont need to go very fast in them .. almost like driving a go-kart.
The acceptance would be fine if the cost was kept to around $12k.. there are lots of greens that cant afford anything more. Below $10k as a second car it would be revolutionary.
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (10:06 am)It’s definitely smaller than the 4 door yaris but I own a 2008 3 door hatchback yaris and the spark looks like it’s the same size (maybe a little bigger actually).
As a side note; the yaris is the best price to fuel economy car you can buy right now. This is my daily commuter car with about a 50/50 city/highway mix and I have a lifetime mpg of right at 40mpg. Base price on the car is a little over $12k and you can’t beat that price/mpg currently.
Here’s my entire fuel history in case anyone was curious…
http://www.gassavers.org/garage/viewgaslog/923?
Makes me wonder what the all electric range would be for a plug in version of the yaris and what kind of hit the price/mpg ratio would take because of the battery cost (if any).
[big Volt fan but still food for thought]
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:07 am)Efficiency vehicles often sacrifice smog-emissions for really high MPG.
T2B5 is far from green (SULEV or better), but cleansing hardware is the first to be discarded when trying to keep cost extremely low.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:15 am)Bio-D
Maybe they’ll have a public stoning of that talking head who calls people idiotic (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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-2
Sep 13th, 2009 (10:16 am)It’s a G-Wiz, one of the many reasons NOT to visit London!
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:17 am)I think -1 Star.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:22 am)Thomas,
Can you earn half a star? (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:28 am)Looks like a strong competitor to the Smart 4-seater whether it’s gas or electric.
The lineup is building:
Spark – All Electric City Car
VOLT – Extended Range Electric Vehicle
All we need now is a high performance electric sports car to compete with Tesla, say around 2015…
Chevy “Nova” ?!!!!!
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:28 am)xed,
Thanks for the post of your mileage history. It’s great to have real life data. Two questions: Is it just you in the vehicle for commuting and may I ask if you’re tall, short, average, etc. I just wonder if a tall person, or a ahem, rotund person would be comfortable.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (10:31 am)1) Its not the sparc in US, the sparc is a model sold by GM in India ( based on dewoo matiz)
Look at :
http://www.chevyspark.in/
the news says Sparc ev in India and selected markets – mostly developing markets.
2) REVA ( http://www.revaindia.com/ ) is selling electric cars in india for a long time. The only city in india mostly you see a REVA will be bangalore
I believe intend of the partner ship is to get a Spark in india with out import or investing heavily in local manufacturing. Use the REVAs capability and push EV Sparc fro developing markets, The top speed of REVA is 50 miles , So in North america it will be in category of neighbourhood vehicles.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:31 am)Q>Why buy a Volt when there are several 27K hybrids available on the market? How about the 12k sticker Yaris or the 12k sticker Spark?
A>Because the Volt delivers smooth quiet electric drive all of the time. And because the Volt provides off-the-chart efficiency combined with V6 (equivalent) power.
The main difference between the Spark and the current list of available 27k hybrids is a 2 second slower 0-60 time. For all here who say an underpowered EV (such as the Leaf) or a micro mini EV (like the Cooper) will find it’s place in society, could the 12k sticker Spark be your answer?
=D~
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-3
Sep 13th, 2009 (10:31 am)I think this is a great step for GM. Obviously partnering with the largest countries like India and China makes sense.
Protectionism just doesn’t work anymore in a global economy. As a company, your buyers, suppliers, manufacturers, and distributors can be anywhere and everywhere. It’s how well you blend these factors to get the strenghts from each that make your company sucessfull.
This shows me that at least some people at the new GM are thining forward and actually gives me great hope for the new company.
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (10:33 am)What a great partnership and benefit to the Indian market. Bringing the electric Spark to the US will galvanize GM’s dominance in the electric car market worldwide.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:34 am)CorvetteGuy
A two set electric Camaro would do the trick for me. I had a Camero back in the 60’s that was sweet.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:39 am)Manufactures are on a retro kick right now. And the models are all VERY popular. How about a 1968 Chevrolet Camaro SS EV? Or the smooth and simple lines of the 2000 Camaro?
=D~
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:56 am)The extreme reduction of size & power is very much like the 80’s.
If you reduce mass you can reduce power. That’s not an issue at all. In fact it would be silly to reduce mass and not reduce power, unless you think everyone needs a 0-60 time of five seconds or less. In fact, you could say that the point of reducing mass would be so you could reduce power, since reducing power will lead to a more efficient, less gas guzzling, vehicle.
The issue seems to be that all the established car companies seem to think that the only way to reduce mass is to reduce the size. Contrary to what you are saying, there is no “dramatically better” solution on the road, at least not in a vehicle that sells in any numbers. Rather than constantly fiddling and innovating with the drive train, it wold be refreshing if manufactures started in a serious way to address the root cause of the inefficiency. While vehicles like the Volt and the Prius at least address aerodynamic inefficiency, which is one third the problem, they don’t in any real way address the remaining two thirds of the problem.
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (11:28 am)DonC
You failed to mention the fourth part of the equation – will people BUY it! Just a thought.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (11:35 am)Interesting. Looks like AC makes only a difference of 1 or 2 mpg.
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (11:39 am)Weight is not as much of an issue in a BEV as it is in a ICE powered vehicle. More battery capacity and better aerodynamics are better investments in a BEV than lowering the weight with exotic alloys and composite materials.
In a heavy vehicle you need lots and lots of torque to accelerate decently.. with an ICE you would need a complex and expensive 5-6-8 speed transmission to multiply the torque. The extreme example of this is an 18 wheeler truck, relatively small engine, very heavy and thus they need transmissions with 12 gears. A BEV on the other hand has a lot of torque at low rpm and thus can accelerate a heavier car much more easily.
Heavier weight will increase tire drag, but this can be reduced with proper tires.. in any case its not a large part of the power budget at hwy speeds.
Electric losses increase with larger power demands used to accelerate an heavier car, but that can also be reduced by going to a higher voltage and improving the electronics.
You also have brake energy recovery in a BEV, granted its not 100% but at least you recover some of the energy lost stopping a heavier vehicle. Assume 50% energy recovery with moderate regen.
The Tesla charts give a good breakdown of the power budget in a BEV. Look at the wh/mile vs speed chart.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (11:45 am)With the enormously-inconsistent statements, and, the complete breaks in apparent intellectual temporal contiguity, perhaps he had already been. (Did you get that one? LOL).
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Sep 13th, 2009 (11:50 am)Oh yeah, the new Camaro.. but use two Voltec motors in the rear, no need for a differential. Use the Volts battery pack or perhaps a higher performance version and just stick a 50-100kw generator on the 4 cyclinder engine intended for the Camaro. Adjust battery placement to achieve 50-50 weight distribution.
A Camaro with 300kw worth of electric motors should be able to spin the tires completely into smoke.. weight wont be too bad since we are ditching the V8 and the transmission and replacing it with 400lbs of batteries… and we do gain 50-50 weight distribution. I think it would be a winner and it would just shut up a lot of whiners.
A lot cheaper than a Karma.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (11:53 am)Dan,
But as you’re aware temporal contiguity does not necessarily suggest cause and effect.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (11:59 am)It was just a takeoff joke from yours about contexts sounding stoned.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (12:00 pm)herm,
That sounds like a great ride!!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (12:01 pm)Dave K
Two great minds with a single thought!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (12:02 pm)its about 8″ shorter than a 2010 3 door Yaris, 143″ length vs 151″. true that is not a lot.
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/spark/2011/featuresandspecs.html
http://www.toyota.com/yaris/specs.html
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+2
Sep 13th, 2009 (12:09 pm)People will certainly buy it, but I’ll wager that most of them will be young people. Although I don’t understand the popularity of some cars like the weird stuff Scion makes, underpowered cheap cars are wildly popular among many of my peers. We didn’t grow up with the muscle cars of the 60s and 70s, but rather the econoboxes of the 80s and 90s, so we expect different things out of our cars than perhaps older individuals do. While this is certainly not universal, many of my peers are primarily concerned with getting from point A to B with as little $$ and gas as possible in a decent-looking vehicle. When I looked at the Spark, my brain went “I want”, so they did something right with the design, and the mpg/$$ is excellent.
From personal experience, you can transition easily to a car with a lack of power. I drove a V8 Mustang GT in high school (I still wonder how I got to do that), but now I drive a Nissan Versa with a small inline 4 and am completely used to the low power. I actually prefer everyday driving in the Versa, since it is super convenient and fits anywhere. I bought it during the high gas prices of last summer and only because I couldn’t find anything smaller (and all the American auto dealers in my area were mostly sold out of small cars). If the Spark was on sale back then I would definitely have bought it instead, and I think it would have had tons of sales.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (12:09 pm)Sorry, I should have figured that (g)! You must have a photographic memory. That phrase doesn’t come up very often.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (12:14 pm)I just have to work a lot harder to attempt to make humor.
I promise to get better at it. Maybe I should have just asked “Who’s the stoner?”
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Sep 13th, 2009 (12:28 pm)ccombs,
Thanks for bringing me up to speed on the younger generation’s taste (and the judicious use of descriptors for us ancient citizens). I do hope that a lot of your peers share your views. May I ask what your parents drive? I’m interested, because it may reflect those same changing tastes, or at least a different demographic.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (12:30 pm)Dan,
Or maybe the humor is just fine and I’m stoned. (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (12:38 pm)All of these E-REV’s and BEV’s will all be here before we know it.
I remember 7 years ago when a friend of mine who is an EE complained (validly), that the then “electric cars with a battery” (hybrids) “don’t have a plug”.
It’s all almost here. I just want the OEM’s to take care of their customers as well as GM does, and, I’m more than a little concerned that not all of them will step up to the plate and all agree on BEV longevity and warranty standards.
Otherwise, when they do come out, we will be coming forward to examine every single word in those warranties (if they are open enough about that. But there would be several “red flags” if they are not).
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Sep 13th, 2009 (12:53 pm)Dan,
Yep, exciting times! No sense worrying about things over which we have no control – like future warranties. They’ll be what they’ll be and we can get on their case at that point. It’s not like *anything* about this technology will go unnoticed.
FIRST we need to get the wheels on the road (and in driveways!).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (1:15 pm)GM needs to hurry up and get some kind of BEV in the pipeline. Pretty much everybody else has.
Volkswagen just announced production plans for 2013.
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (1:16 pm)If you reduce mass you can reduce power. That’s not an issue at all.
__________________________
Obviously.
The issue is the disproportional reduction.
Power is being reduced much more than size.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (1:26 pm)Contrary to what you are saying, there is no “dramatically better” solution on the road, at least not in a vehicle that sells in any numbers.
________________________
What in the world are you talking about?
There’s a hybrid that’s larger, faster, cleaner, more efficient, and quite popular.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (2:21 pm)make the SPARK as an EREV “MINI VOLT” with a 20 mile AER , 100mph max, $20K sticker price and i’ll buy it anyday…
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (2:21 pm)will people BUY it!
I’m not advocating for smaller cars. I’m advocating for lighter cars. My criticism of the industry, including Toyota and GM, is that they aren’t spending enough effort exploring materials that would allow them to build lighter vehicles that aren’t smaller. The Prius is fairly efficient, but it’s not really that great. But slash a third of its curb weight and you have a far better performing car that would get much better gas mileage. Or take the Volt. How much better would it be to use 15-20 kWh per 100 miles rather than 25 kWh per 100 miles? Or stated differently, would you rather your Volt have a 40 mile range or a 60 mile range? In practical terms, what we have is an obsession with the drive train — the equivalent of figuring out how to get more electricity into the house — and virtually no effort devoted to the mass of the car — the equivalent to figuring out how to turn off the lights when you’re not using them.
This approach also leads to the false dichotomy, as demonstrated by john1720’s comment, that the choice is between light under-powered cars or heavy powerful gas guzzlers. This false dichotomy leads, in turn, to the false conclusion that the “solution” is the whiz bang split synergy drive, which allows a car with a standard chassis to get much higher than average MPG.
Note that lighter does not not mean less safe. For example, since composites can absorb 5X more energy than steel, if you make the car slightly larger, or maintain the same performance and make the car the same size (since you can use a smaller engine), then you can make a lighter car that is as safe or safer than the heavier car even in head on collisions.
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (2:42 pm)The Volt is a BEV, just offer a version without the genset and adjust a few lines of code. It would not cost much to offer this variant.
I dont know how much the genset is but they should be able to shave $2-3k off the price of the car.
I think I heard somewhere that there is lots of room left inside the battery case… perhaps they can reduce the battery warranty and bump up the range to 100 miles.. at 80% SOC and 0.200kwh/mile consumption they would need a 24kwh pack.. it would require an additional 200lbs of batteries.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (2:47 pm)Did I miss something? WhAT ARE THE OTHER 2/3RDS OF PROBLEMS?
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Sep 13th, 2009 (2:47 pm)anyone care to guess how much the ICE and 50kw generator is?.. plus tank, radiator, exhaust system, catalytic converter and other assorted gear.
Perhaps $4k..
Corvetteman, how much are all these components at the parts desk of your dealership?
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Sep 13th, 2009 (2:54 pm)Way too small for me. The Volt is even pushing my sense of space.
I’ll probably wait for the voltec CUV. But, IF my local chevy dealer gets a Volt in for me…
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+3
Sep 13th, 2009 (3:06 pm)I’m probably one of ccombs contemporaries. My parents drove us around in a Dodge Omni for a while when there were 3ish kids at home in the early 1980s. (I was born in 1979.)
Granted the Omni was a little too small for our purposes, and this was before kids were supposed to be in car seats until they’re 80lbs, or whatever, but my firsthand experience proves that I certainly don’t need a Yukon to haul kids. Before the Omni, my parents also used a Volkswagen bus for a while (when there were 5 kids at home), but the reliability and safety of that thing really wasn’t up to par — something about the engine seizing up on my dad once (and a goat jumping on to his workbench while he was rebuilding the engine), and also something about the design putting the driver into an unintentional crumple-zone. After the Omni, it was an Oldsmobile Cutlass Sierra then a Honda Accord. My parents have owned a couple of pickup trucks for jobs that only pickups can do, but they’ve never owned anything close to the size of a Yukon or a Suburban.
I am kind of mystified by people in their 70s who absolutely must have big cars — the people who buy the Lincolns and those older Buicks, and other land yachts. I guess it’s whatever you expected from when you learned about cars, and they just don’t seem to be comfortable in a car like the Accord or the Camry. I’m also mystified by people who buy a massive SUV whenever they have their first kid — my wife and I are about to have our first kid, and we’ve checked the kid-stuff against the size of the Prius, and we agree that no changes are necessary. Furthermore, she has vetoed any kid-related excuses I might have tried in order to convince her that we need a newer car. (I might be able to justify buying a new car for other reasons — but “for the child(ren)” isn’t going to fly.)
Also, those 12-second 0-60 times just aren’t a problem. It may be ironic that you have to think ahead more in a slower vehicle, but, seriously, you just have to learn to drive. I learned to drive in a 1986 Mitsubishi Pickup Truck (a Dodge D-50, basically), and those 12-second 0-60 times feel downright luxurious compared to that rattletrap. I’ve driven some fast vehicles and, while I’m sure they’d be fun in a controlled environment like a racetrack, but in real-world traffic, the extra power just means that I have to feather the gas pedal all the time, rather than most of the time.
I agree with ccombs about parking a small car like the Versa. The Prius isn’t much bigger than the Versa, but it’s so much easier to park than my Ranger, or some of the bigger vehicles I’ve owned or driven regularly. It has a tight turning radius, and it’s a couple of feet shorter than most cars, so parking in spots that people with big vehicles will pass up is a breeze. Just drive it in to the spot — there’s no 3-point turns, no changing references as the fender hides stuff, you just park. I can park big vehicles just fine, but a small vehicle is just less work to park, which is what I want in a daily-driver.
It is likely that being a kid in the 1980s did make my expectations of what a car should be rather modest. I consider a modern suspension and weather-stripping to be essential. I think cruise-control and air conditioning are kick-@$$. Safety enhancements are always welcome. And, after that, it’s all just icing on the cake. Taking the foreign oil (and eventually the fossil fuel) out of the equation seems to be the next big step, for lots of reasons.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:08 pm)I’m all for lighter cars, and agree that the manufacturers need to do more (or is that less?) in this area. But it is important to acknowledge the reality of physics. F = ma, a=F/m
By being in a lighter car in a head on collision, you are automatically at a disadvantage, since acceleration (the g forces one would experience in a crash) are inversely proportional to the mass you are traveling in ( the lighter your car, the more you’re going to get accelerated in the collision).
Again, I”m not saying a lighter car can’t be just as safe as a (somewhat) heavier car, but the manufacturers of the lighter cars will have to work harder in other areas (crumple zones, air bags, etc.) to make up for the “Newton’s second law disadvantage”.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:12 pm)You can have your lighter big car — I’ll take the even-lighter small-car that uses the same materials and techniques.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:18 pm)The way I read that quote from GM’s engineers was “the weight of an electric vehicle isn’t as much of an issue as we assumed it was, but it’s still an issue. We found that, after we put some real effort into weight-reduction, that we got more miles per charge if we put our time into the aerodynamics of the car. When we looked in to the issue deeply, it turned out that the regenerative braking was what swayed the balance.”
That’s a lot different than “the weight of an electric doesn’t matter so much because of regenerative braking”. But, that’s just my interpretation.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:24 pm)Mass of the vehicle is always huge, and it matters not whether you have a BEV, a PHEV, an EREV, or a conventional ICE vehicle. This becomes apparent when you consider where he energy goes. Putting aside the drive train for the moment, about 1/3 the energy gets lost to aero drag, one third gets lost to friction, and one third goes to actually powering the vehicle, much of which gets lost in heating the brakes. (The Tesla chart indicates this — aero losses don’t equal frictional losses until the car reaches 40 MPH, and the average speed for the City Cycle, which is considered to be 55% of all driving, is 22 MPH.)
Mass is directly related to the frictional losses and to the kinetic energy needed. Additionally, as the mass is increased, for the same performance the drive train has to become proportionally larger, increasing the drive train losses. Basically reducing the mass results in reducing the energy needed for everything but the power to overcome aero drag by about the same percentage.
Jon Bereisa, who is head of GM’s advanced technology, slapped aside the notion that mass wasn’t important for BEVs and PHEVs with this simple comment: “In anything that moves it is all about mass, rockets or cars“.
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (3:31 pm)OK explanations have been given. i drove one of these some months ago in Brussels, great in town, but don’t try to go on the highway. Too small and too slow.
Regards,
JC NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:33 pm)My guess: $10,000 to $12,000 (including the GCU)
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:40 pm)Luke,
Thanks for the info. Sounds like you were brought up well. Best of luck with the new addition to your family.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (3:41 pm)Larger than what? Faster than what? Cleaner than what? And more popular than what? I’m assuming you’re comparing the Prius to something, but I’m not sure what that something is. The trade-off with the Prius is that you pay more for less performance in order to get better MPG. I don’t consider that “dramatically better”.
If you’re talking about the currently non-existent Spark, I can’t say that paying twice as much for a car that gets 50 MPG rather than 40 MPG is an obviously good choice. If you’re talking about something like the Ford Fusion Hybrid, I don’t know that paying the same amount for a smaller car with inferior performance in order to get 50 MPG rather than 40 MPG is necessarily an obvious choice.
But all of these comparisons are beside the point. The main point is that the Prius is OK but, as an energy efficient vehicle, it is seriously compromised by Toyota’s focus on the drive train to the exclusion of a more important factor — namely, the mass of the vehicle.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:46 pm)“Fragen und ihr werdet empfangen”
Frankfurt Preview: Volkswagen 1-liter concept, 158 mpg (U.S.) tandem 2-seater
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/vw-einliter-auto-l1-auf-der-iaa-2009_974919.html
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/13/frankfurt-preview-volkswagen-1-liter-concept-158-mpg-u-s-ta/
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:48 pm)DonC and Carcus1,
Smaller doesn’t automatically mean less safe as you both point out. My daughter was hit broadside by a truck AND an SUV, and her little Prius saved her life. It was totaled, but she walked out of the hospital the very next day (I helped load her on the Life-Flight helicopter – not fun).
Given the mass of battery alone in the Volt, it must have been quite the exercise to engineer safety in as well.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:49 pm)GM’s cars seem to be shrinking but their price is NOT. Looks like they are taking a cue from the food industry. Today’s burgers and candy are much smaller than the same ones back in the fifties and sixties (yeah i’m that old) – think Big Mac, Snickers Bar. And those chip makers, oh boy, the last time i opened a bag out of vending machine it had like 5 tiny chips while the bag was puffed full of air to fool you. Who is GM trying to fool, they cut back on materials and charge the same. Are American that stupid that they can’t see this ? Prolly.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:52 pm)Hold on good buddy the Nissan LEAF will be here in a few months. That Spark will fizzle next to a LEAF at the same price.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:54 pm)All doable except that price. For that price your are destined to purchase a Nissan LEAF as your favorite ride. Car 2.0 is on its way.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:54 pm)FWIW the residential electrical rates in India are dirt cheap. Really really cheap. For this reason there isn’t enough supply for the demand, which causes frequent blackouts, especially during the rainy season. For these reasons a small EV might be appealing but perhaps not without problems.
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-2
Sep 13th, 2009 (3:57 pm)GM doesn’t know how to make a pure EV. They have given up that space to Tesla, Nissan and others. More likely they will contract it out to a chinese, indian or mexican company which has more expertise and low labor costs.
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+2
Sep 13th, 2009 (3:58 pm)You are so right. That Spark looks like a Nano on steriods. Sweeet.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (3:59 pm)I’m sure you both felt pretty thankful that day.
Did her car have the side torso airbags (standard after 2007?)
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=644
/I’ve wondered how much of a problem the “tunnel of batteries” must be for crash tests. Seems to me it’s a big mass to get pinched up against in the side impact scenario, but the dynamics could be something completely different than what I imagine.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (4:09 pm)Carcus1,
No the car didn’t have side airbags. Jenn was literally knocked out of her shoes, so yes, we were especially blessed that day.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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-1
Sep 13th, 2009 (4:12 pm)Damn your old. You should change your name to Tagasaurus Rex
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Sep 13th, 2009 (4:17 pm)Add,
That is one great looking little VW (imo) — (pics 1 thru 4 in the linked German article).
Looks like they might have out “Aptera’d” Aptera. Not that it’s electric, but if you’re getting 158 mpg, who cares?
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+9
Sep 13th, 2009 (4:18 pm)This is great news. Even better will be the India Volt production plant. It just makes sense. American labor costs is atrocious. This is just an omen of things to come. Good move GM.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (4:19 pm)Scooter,
Lol, everyone’s a comedian (but I kinda like that handle). I know I’m old, but I still have some tread left! (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (4:31 pm)That Hilarious piece of sarcasm deserves a musical break:
We Can’t Make It Here Anymore – by James Mcmurtry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTW0y6kazWM
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Sep 13th, 2009 (4:40 pm)The Volkswagen concept looks good. Just hope these slick new cars can be priced within reason. No matter how good the mpg is, the buyer still has the Yaris, Rio and others to pick over.
Good going VW.
=D~
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+1
Sep 13th, 2009 (4:44 pm)Solar Power doesn’t work in the Rain. Have we not taught this to the Indians yet.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (4:57 pm)What these dang kids call ‘drifting’, we used to call ‘fishtailing’ which can’t be fully appreciated until they’ve done it in a ‘69 Camaro.
Now pass me my ‘milk-of-magnesia’, dammit!
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-2
Sep 13th, 2009 (5:00 pm)Better to adapt than complain about your job being sent to India.
Raise your energy level up a notch, accept a pay cut, and show up for work 1/2 hour early. During your work day remind yourself that there are 100,000 other people in town that may be able to do your job better than you are doing it. Use this to push yourself forward and earn pay raises as profits come in. If there are no profits than stick with it and keep punching.
Grumbling “We can’t make it here”, or begging for beer money on the corner, isn’t going to put food on your table. If you choose to buy hookers and to use hard drugs then you are a personal failure. Don’t blame anyone else.
=D~
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:00 pm)Wow that’s just really retarded. They certainly know how. But there is no reason for them not to make them where ever makes the most sense. Why put them on the boat if they can build them there too?
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:06 pm)You tell ‘em, Corvetteguy! I figured anyone named “scooter” couldn’t be toooo awfully old (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:10 pm)Win-Win.
Win for GM.
Win for REVA.
And big win for India.
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-1
Sep 13th, 2009 (5:15 pm)“During your work day remind yourself that there are 100,000 other people in town that may be able to do your job…..”
________
Which town would that be, . . . Mumbai? (pop. 14,000,000)
GM launches clean fuel Spark compact car in India, but seeks new funding to further expansion
http://gadgetophilia.com/gm-launches-clean-fuel-spark-compact-car-in-india-but-seeks-new-funding-to-further-expansion/
/Reminds me of a relative of mine who (after working for the same company for 25 years) got to train all of the replacements for where he worked. After the training was done and he was out of a job, they offered him a new position as head of all the replacements. But he didn’t want to move to India for his next computer programming job.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:20 pm)That’s right. But if any read our posts, well maybe they’d be a little more aware that there are those who can “hold their toes to the fire” so as to not “slip a fast technical one” past their trusting and fairly unaware and innocent (sincerely not knowing what battery abuse/neglect is), clientele.
(Building/backing BEV’s all better for them in the first place being my motive).
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:23 pm)add,
/ juuuuuuust whistle while you work . . . .
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:26 pm)Dan,
I think (and hope) that GM knows that the ice these days is pretty thin. “Trying something” seems like the last thing they can afford (or would want).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:33 pm)Note that he is not abusing the AC either.. did you know a 5000 btu window rattler consumes 500 watts?, imagine that window rattler in your car.. it would get very cold very fast and you could turn it off.
They put large AC in cars to deal with baking in the sun all day.. with no insulation.. a properly designed car will not need much power to run the AC.
If there is no ICE spewing CO under the hood of your BEV, why cant you seal and insulate the cabin properly?.. you need some air exchange but not a lot.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:37 pm)I think Luke is my long lost brother..
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:38 pm)Hey Herm @ 2:47
It’s an entirely different economy of scale and overhead economy for assembly line costs in comparison to the required additional overhead for a parts department. But the ratio is somewhere between 2.5 and 3 times as expensive (without the costs of labor installations factored, which would bring the prices to, I estimate, as only 2 times as a difference.)
So, you might not really have a great reduction in implied costs after all if there was such a thing as an ICEless “glider”.
Various overhead factors must still be in play. It might only be something like $2,000 less is my estimation even if such a thing were even to be considered or allowed, (which I’m sure would never be allowed).
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-3
Sep 13th, 2009 (5:38 pm)GM may finally be “getting it”. This is a Global Industry and GM would do well to form as many partnerships as possible. The most important thing is to discontinue reliance on Detroit, this has hurt GM the most. Now that Opel is history GM should seize the opportunity to build large Engineering facility in India (most engineers in world) and new Large Manufacturing facility in China (most manufacturing companies). Unfortunately only thing in America is Fat Lazy managers and they don’t need any more of those types. Its time to get lean and mean in American and expand in the growing parts of the world. Lets do this GM.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:44 pm)Don’t forget about the Puma
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:50 pm)Luke, my long lost brother!
I am surprised that the engineers where surprised by this.. I’m not a car engineer but it makes sense to me. All this can be simulated in a computer, Toyota is a master at this.. look at the new Prius, a bigger car, heavier with a bigger engine and they get better mileage!
We humans get fixated on things that are not as important as we think they are.. some of us get fixated on mileage in the charge sustaining mode, some of us get fixated on the size of the genset (too big), on going to extremes to make cars lighter, on using soft plastics on the car’s interior, on diesels for the genset, on the looks of cars and so on..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_and_adjustment
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Sep 13th, 2009 (5:57 pm)below 40 mph mass has a bigger impact than at 75 mph.. but note that a BEV is using 7kw at 40 mph and 25kw at 75mph. Do you really want to worry so much and spend so much money to optimize a car that is only consuming 7kw?
Spend your money and worry about drag at 75mph, thats where your savings are.
“Jon Bereisa, who is head of GM’s advanced technology, slapped aside the notion that mass wasn’t important for BEVs and PHEVs with this simple comment: “In anything that moves it is all about mass, rockets or cars“. ”
Just because this guy said this does not make it Gospel.. they also have a hydrogen program and go on at length about infrastructure being needed for BEVs.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (6:06 pm)That much?.. whats a GCU?
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Sep 13th, 2009 (6:07 pm)100mph, are you crazy?
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Sep 13th, 2009 (6:08 pm)You buy cars by the pound?
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Sep 13th, 2009 (6:10 pm)what is wrong with hookers?.. they deserve to make a living too.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (6:27 pm)Generator Control Unit. All the electronics that are going to control the generator’s output.
Google around for purchase price on new 50 kw generators for sale. It gets pretty expensive with that kind of capacity. I’ve seen them from about $7,000 up to $15,000. (higher end being diesels). GM may mass produce more, and gas engine is cheaper than diesel, but it’s a very specialized application with special attention to weight, cooling, space, etc….
/pure guesswork though, I think this kind of info is double top secret that auto manufacturers just don’t let slip out.
// I’ve spent a little time just trying to google what percentage the drive train is of manufacturing cost vs. the body of a typical car . . could find essentially no info.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (6:58 pm)Oh God the Puma!
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Sep 13th, 2009 (7:26 pm)Thank all that is good that this car isn’t called the Viva anymore…..
Anyone who drove a possible future electric run model would cause everyone to coin the really annoying term “Reva Viva”. The spark is a much more solid name
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Sep 13th, 2009 (7:43 pm)Sure export as much as possible to over seas competitors and leave nothing but marketing here in the US. Sounds like a great plan!!!
When will Americans wake up and realize you can’t export everything in the holy name of profit
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Sep 13th, 2009 (7:57 pm)You can’t export everything under the sun in the holy name of profit or you will be left with nothing in this country.
England in the early 1600’s was nothing more than mud huts when King Henry threw up protectionist barriers around his country, creating new industries that were customers of THEM SELVES! What followed was the greatest economic expansion in human history up to that point and England was the dominant power for hundreds of years after. America similarly went through the same process, but that process is being undone in the name of “global” economy which is draining current industrial powers of their manufacturing base and causing people to work for pennies on the day in third world countries so CEO’s and share holders can make that profit chart they created years earlier and earn their bonueses that are more than what most of their workers make in a year.
Profit is not the only thing in this world!
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Sep 13th, 2009 (8:31 pm)“Thanks for the post of your mileage history. It’s great to have real life data”
- No problem, real life data is always nice to have. (NOTE: I do turn the car off at lights if I’m going to be sitting more than 7 seconds but I am NOT a hypermiler. Turning the car off is no big deal because the toyota ignition on this car has a neat little feature where if you just “flick” the ignition it will auto start the car for you so you can’t over crank the starter.)
“Is it just you in the vehicle for commuting”
- Yep, just me
“may I ask if you’re tall, short, average, etc.”
- 5′8″ 165lbs.
“I just wonder if a tall person, or a ahem, rotund person would be comfortable.”
- The front half of the car feels like you’re sitting in a mid sided sedan; only when you turn around do you see that you’re actually sitting in a small car. That being said; my guess would be that anyone around 6′ would be near or at the upper limit for comfortable height. The seats aren’t great (hey look at the sticker price, they cut corners where they could) and I feel like the seats do “hug” a bit. Since I’m just shy of 170lbs my guess would be that the 200lb+ crowd may find the seats a little too restrictive.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (8:36 pm)Ahh, thanks for looking that up. It looked like it was bigger to me but that may have actually been the intent since promo photos are always meant to show cars in the most favorable light.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (8:46 pm)Herm,
Mass matters a lot. Just because a vehicle might only consume~7kw at a constant 40mph velocity on level ground, doesn’t mean the whole problem is defined. Yes, mass is much less important in highway driving in light traffic. Regenerative breaking also lowers it’s importance but is still important. In city driving their is a lot of acellerating an braking. At best, regen braking only recovers the motive energy times the drivetrain efficiency. In reality, it will recover something less. Mass also requires more power to accellerate which means more current which means more loss. This is also true for going up grades: more mass again means more power and more loss. Also, mass is important to an full performance EREV in that it affects the sizing of the battery and genset. The battery needs to have enough power capacity to effectively accelerate the mass of the car as well as provide the targeted energy discharge while still keep enough in the tank to aid with extended hill climbing. The generator needs to be able to provide enough power to maintain full performance on extended grades.
Take 400lbs out of the Volt and they could keep nearly the same performance with a 14kwh battery an ~40kw generator.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (8:56 pm)xed
Thanks again for answering this round of queries. I’m guessing that I’m not the only one who hasn’t had a small vehicle recently. I had a cherry red VW bug in HS, right before the Camero and after the ancient caddy. Oh, I had an Austin America in Grad school too – that was tiny. Since then (middle 70’s) we’ve had mostly Jeep Grand Cherokees which almost always get 20 mpgs. We have moderately tough winters around here, so the Jeeps work out well.
Thanks again,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 13th, 2009 (9:17 pm)Alas, all I have done is awaken the midget and fill him with a terrible resolve.
john, do you really think that something like the gas-powered Spark (or Yaris) will be as expensive as a Prius (or a Volt)? This is a totally different approach to economy, one that Honda (and Toyota) have already mastered.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (9:23 pm)“The Chevy Spark is GM’s new upcoming mini car that’s one step smaller than the Aveo.”
I hope the Spark doesn’t repeat the Aveo mistake of zero room behind the rear seat. Okay, not zero; I think you could almost get a tire iron back there. Oh; and better than 20-something mpg city with automatic would be nice, too.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (9:25 pm)Sorry to hear your relative lost that 25 year long job. Similar event happened to me. A good job went away when the price of oil drove the company out of business. Had to accept a job at less pay and be more careful with spending for awhile.
Haven’t missed a day of work or been late since. Am present at least 20 minutes before clocking in, usually 35 minutes.
Sorry if my earlier reply to the “we can’t make it here” solution sounds uncaring. I believe the best way to get out of a ditch is to climb as best as you can.
=D~
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:08 pm)One day we woke up to realize that we, as a nation, had been so greedy and lazy that we needed TARP to bail us out. Can something be learned from this event? What has happened has happened. Money is being printed to cover greedy banking defaults. An excess of middle management throughout the production sector of the U.S.A. had squeezed the blue collar worker and eventually shut down plants.
We have all seen this in our workplace. A company administrator brings in his deadwood relative to become a manager. It costs $50k in would be annual pay raises to hammock this guy as we walks from department to department telling everyone to “keep kicking ass”. Was the U.S.A. really lean and mean before TARP? Were we showing up for work clear headed (sober) and ready to put out a good effort before the TARP bail out? Or were we just going through the motions between paid vacations with hope that our sub standard work would be overlooked by QC and the end purchaser?
“But we needed TARP or the system would collapse”. This is false. The greedy would have paid the price for the over leveraging and reckless risk taking. Weaker sectors would have a flood of new talent to help them push forward. True, companies would have gone under including their providers and suppliers. But, the strong would benefit and consolidate the weak and dieing. This is what they are doing with our tax dollars now. New businesses would have taken root in the fertile, lower cost, environment. Foreclosed homes would have been bought by the less greedy and less reckless who had saved money rather than living the high life week to week on a melting credit card.
So now some of the manufacturing jobs are going overseas. We should accept that this as our fault and work our way out of it.
=D~
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:14 pm)I also agree that CARB has gone too far in reducing car emissions.. the air coming in the engine is dirtier than the exhaust.
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-1
Sep 13th, 2009 (10:28 pm)Look, I’m not knocking your hard work ethic.
I’m knocking the fact that you seem to have blinders on to the irony of all our federal tax dollars /bailout money being pumped into U.S. government owned GM while at the very same time GM is laying off 10’s of thousands of workers in this country they are expanding production on foreign soil. Expanding production on a car that very well could get shipped back to and sold in the U.S.
If that doesn’t seem like a raping of America, I don’t know what else I could say.
It’s insane.
/I’m gonna go pop some acid and rent a hooker — I can’t take the pressure. (I just rent, I don’t buy).
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:38 pm)“Take 400lbs out of the Volt and they could keep nearly the same performance with a 14kwh battery an ~40kw generator.”
Probably so, but at a huge expense.. and to save $1000 worth of cells, one of the specs driving the size of the ICE is for the Volt to hit 100mph in charge sustaining mode, that is mostly aerodynamics..
Lets go back to the Tesla chart:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/
Note the Wh/mile vs Speed chart, look at the dark blue line that represents tire drag.. notice how flat it is?.. mostly dependent on tire compound and weight… it hovers around 50wh/mile using wider tires than a Volt will use. The Volt is 3700lbs, 400lbs is about 11% of that.. if we reduced the Volts weight we would reduce that tire drag loss by 11% also. The gain in range would be almost unoticeable and 400lbs is a lot of weight.
True the 400lbs will affect power usage in the city, but again it will also be unoticeable unless you drive very aggresively.. the higher momentary currents demanded by the motor will result in increased ohmic losses, but again they wont amount to much since the electrical efficiency in the battery mode will likely be around 85%.. so 15% of momentary higher power levels will be lost, and still we get 50% of those losses back by using brake regen. Note that GM claims the same range in the city and the hwy.
Saving 400lbs in a Volt would be hugely expensive, yet it would only give you about 11% more range.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (10:40 pm)Leave the midget alone.. he is our midget.
Do we really want to talk about economics at a Volt fan site?.. you really cant beat the economics of buying a used 2 year old corolla.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (11:23 pm)For years I had worked under a very smart Englishman. He was an engineer who had the amazing ability to look at a problem and and work his way back to a solution. He was an older man. Simple and frugal as he had just 3 pair of pants and 3 shirts which we all became used to seeing each week. He showed up for work at 7AM unlike the other office workers who stopped at Starbucks on the way in. He would not tolerate low quality. His son worked on one of the processes. When it became evident that the boy was cutting corners and running a sub standard product, his dad let him go.
I liked the man and he liked me. I would report to his desk to talk about production, quality, and the work schedule. He kept two signs on the front of his desk.
The first being, “Don’t bring me problems, bring me options”
And a verse by Rudyard Kipling:
Our England is a garden,
and such gardens are not made.
By singing:–”Oh, how beautiful!”,
and sitting in the shade.
=D~
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Sep 13th, 2009 (11:45 pm)her little Prius saved her life
Wow! That was one terrific result. I hope she didn’t suffer any long term injuries. Car accidents are never good things.
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Sep 13th, 2009 (11:50 pm)By being in a lighter car in a head on collision, you are automatically at a disadvantage
No arguing with that. You are definitely at an initial disadvantage in a front end collision. However, as you intimate, if your frame is made from a material that absorbs more energy than steel, then you can engineer the vehicle to be safer than a conventional vehicle with a steel frame, even if the conventional vehicle is much heavier. This is, for example, why “bullet proof” are made from kevlar rather than steel — kevlar absorbs more energy.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (12:07 am)One, the Tesla chart defines the energy used to maintain a given speed. That’s not realistic in real world, which, as koz has mentioned, has things called “hills” and “traffic lights” that you have to accelerate away from.
This is where where you’d see losses associated with mass, but you won’t see them on the Tesla chart because the chart doesn’t address those situations which, sadly for me, are all too common.
Two, most driving is done below 22 MPH where frictional losses are a much higher percentage of losses than aero drag.
Three, looking at the frictional losses in a Roadster is misleading because the car is actually lightweight. Tesla used composites for the body, which is why, despite the fact that it has a battery pack 4X-5X the size of the Volt’s, it still weighs 700 pounds less than a Volt.
Four, drive train losses, which the Tesla chart indicates are the most significant losses, are proportional to mass. You keep thinking that the only losses attributable to mass are rolling resistance, but as koz has said this simply isn’t true. If you need to move less mass then all the parts of the drive train can be smaller and therefore a source of less loss.
Five, following up on this point, as mass is reduced you can reduce another source of energy loss, which is the loss attributable to ancillary systems. For example, if the car is light enough, you may not need any power assisted steering.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (12:10 am)you really cant beat the economics of buying a used 2 year old corolla.
Depends on the price of gas. Right now where I am it’s $3/gallon –> $2/gallon so it’s hard to cost justify a Prius or a Volt or a any BEV or PHEV.
FWIW I always appreciate john’s viewpoint on things. He adds a perspective which would otherwise be missing.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (12:27 am)Dave, we’re getting far afield here, and I’m not trying to ruin your storyline about bank defaults, but the banks are paying all the TARP money back, with interest, and the government is making money on the additional warrants that were issued as part of those transactions.
There is the issue of Fannie, Freddie, and the car companies — GM and Chrysler — but the bank bailout seems to have worked out well for taxpayers. Some are complaining that Paulson wasn’t aggressive enough, but he seems to have gotten a 15% return, which isn’t too shabby. Plus maximizing a return wasn’t the point of the exercise.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (12:28 am)OK, if they DO NOT make an electric Spark available here in the US, then it proves that GM did NOT learn it’s lesson from bankruptcy about making what people want to buy.
If they seriously ignore the US, it’s biggest market, then they are clueless, and would simply be destined for another maybe permanent bankruptcy.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (1:35 am)I’ll need to find a job at AIG and get in on those golf n’ massage weekends. And they better not forget my big bonus.
=D~
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Sep 14th, 2009 (5:27 am)I hope this works out for GM. Electric car are so important on so many different levels.
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+1
Sep 14th, 2009 (6:55 am)You can “hack” an exact copy of a bit of software, do all manner of alterations to it, and, after you see what it will or will not do, there is usually no harm if you backed up the original. You just send it’s little altered bits and bytes out to the great unknown. No harm done.
In automotive, the actual physical alterations of a vehicle (especially those built after year Y2K), even tiny electrical changes made by the consumer (DIY=destroy it yourself), is known as “butchering” nowadays. (It’s not the same as “hacking”)
Aftermarket, “free market” “competitively-priced” (yaaaaay “free market” (sic)) batteries, for instance, such as and very most especially, the Walmart 12volt Automotive battery, do more destruction to many autos than ever the cost savings of “free market competitive-pricing” ever does any ultimate cost savings “good”.
I am solely responsible for what I say next. (Admonishing Walmart):
Walmart 12 volt automotive batteries, when they fail at about 60% of the lifespan of an original OEM quality battery,
DO NOT FAIL IN A SAFE MANNER, BUT IN AN EXTREMELY DESTRUCTIVE MANNER, TO OTHER VERY EXPENSIVE SOFTWARE AND THEIR CONTROLLED HARDWARE SYSTEMS. (Ford vehicle transmissions and PCM’s being the most extremely damaged suddenly by those Walmart battery failures.) Sample size =112 cases.
And, that (excuse me for saying it this way) THE most marketing-stupid-&-DESTRUCTIVE way that Autozone batteries have two grease packets taped to their batteries for sale, send the wrong damaging message when people in their stores just see that, and generalize that they can go home and place chassis grease between the posts and the clamps.
This voids warranties, and, DIY generalizations that just anything can be done just so long as the something does not immediately BLOW UP IN YOUR FACE, “is all good”,
just isn’t helpful after all to put it mildly.
We can not be cavalier about what can and can not be done by the owner/consumer for all these intensely and completely-interdependent hardware and software systems.
Unfortunately, you just can’t “add a circuit” or do **anything** electrical to a vehicle nowadays without doing it WRONG SOMEHOW. (Excuse my capital letters, but I must use them here:) IT IS COMPLEXITY AND ABSOLUTE INTERDEPENDENCY THAT PRACTICALLY PROHIBIT ANYTHING ADDED. Suggesting otherwise is setting up some poor unaware individual for
MASSIVE LOSSES FOR RESULTING IMMEDIATE DAMAGES, AS WELL AS SAFETY DAMAGES, very sadly.
E-REVs and BEV’s must have the proper factory-trained individual to perform **any** optional electrical work on these.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (7:33 am)DonC.
Thanks for the concern. She was one very large bruise, but sustained no permanent injuries, thank God. Tough young lady and an equally tough car.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 14th, 2009 (9:27 am)Name a V6 that can deliver maximum torque at 0 rpm and instant acceleration at all speeds. There are none. Only 100% electric drive can provide that.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (9:34 am)I do.
Once you taste maximum torque at 0 rpm and up to about half the maximum speed, instant, smooth, semaless, near linear acceleration available at all times and luxury quiet in AER, you don’t go back.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (11:00 am)Herm,
Yes it would be great to have a second car for less than 10K, but I don’t think this will ever appear in the US. It’s clearly designed for the Indian market. While this may be dissapointing to folks like us, it’s great news for GM. The importance of doing well in India and China is almost equal to the importance of doing well in North America. That’s where all the growth is and that’s where a lot of the profits are.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (11:04 am)Tagamet,
People will certainly buy it in India. Most people that own cars there own micro-compacts like this. And they still spend the cost of the car on one year’s worth of gasoline. Having an EV is far more of a no-brainer for the Indian middle class than it is for American’s or even Europeans. Having an affordable EV (i.e. sub $10K) that is made under an Indian label (Indian consumers are fiercely patriotic when it comes to buying cars) is a slam-dunk. Great move by GM.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (11:10 am)Actually Kevlar is very strong in tension and that’s why multiple layers of it distributed in the right configuration can distribute the energy from a bullet. You can however cut the stuff with scissors.
Here is the rub though…
Steel is much much less expensive than kevlar or carbon fibre and in a small price leader car like the Spark is, these ‘advanced’ materials are off the table.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (11:13 am)The more, the better. GM needs this type of vehicle for the world market place. Would love to see a Voltec Chevrolet Cruze model plus a Voltec Chevrolet Orlando model. Is it true the Chevrolet HHR may be dropped in 2011?
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Sep 14th, 2009 (1:38 pm)Herm:
I agree. I could get very interested in a Spark if, as I understand it, they are actually going to build them here.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (1:43 pm)DonC:
As to mass and power, i totally agree. Actually, I don’t have a problem with size. If the Smart was a GM product, I would probably be driving one now.
I have theory that, if all of the single occupant vehicles on the LA freeways were replaced with Smarts, there would be a noticeable reduction in congestion, in adition to the fuel savings.
As I understand it, one of the original design parameters of the Smart was that it could be parked perpendicular to the curb in a standard Paris parking space, thus allowing 2 Smarts in one space. That would be pretty useful in LA as well, LOL.
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Sep 14th, 2009 (5:40 pm)Dake K.,
What’s your technical source for conjecturing that the Leaf is underpowered? Certaintly, maximum torque at 0 rpm is more than any full gasser vehicle can do.
“the Leaf (we’re gonna drop those capital letters) lives up to its performance billing…cushion-compressing acceleration that will launch it from zero to 30 mph faster than an Infiniti G37″
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/08/nissan-turns-new-leaf-with-full-service-100-mile-5-seat-affordable-ev.html
BTW, 0-30 mph is what actually matters in the real world, in commuting, around town and errand running suburban and and urban congested driving.
Based on multiple, credible published reports of torque pound feet (maximum available at 0 rpm) and likely weight, the Leaf should beat an Infinity G37 off the line, every time. That’s why I think that Nissan has huge ones for calling their first proper EV the Leaf, rather than the Next to You Person’s Ego Crusher or the Holy Smokes, Batman.
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1089336
It doesn’t seem that folks will truly understand how excellent performance 100% electric drive feels and is until:
1) they drive one. Ask Lyle about at speed responsiveness of 100% electric drive.
2) they then notice how other full gasser vehicles around/behind them start out very slow, then power on, then fade, then pause while shifting, etc. on each gear while the electric just smoothly accelerates strongly. (I hate getting stuck behind full gassers with stick shifts (i.e. full gasser pony cars) – they are soooooo slllooooowwwwww off the line).
3) drive an electric vehicle for some time and then drive a similar weight / horsepower vehicle afterwards. I used to think that my full gasser crotch rocket was something frisky, (and it is compared to full gasser pony cars), until I got my 100% electric drive vehicle. My full gasser does cruise at high speeds well, but otherwise, it’s operation feels slow off the line and very awkward and clumsy compared to my electric.
If I could combine the high speed cruising and slighter longer range of my full gasser with all the performance characteristics of my electric (100% electric drive), that’d be the perfect single, all around vehicle for me. Oh, that exactly describes the Volt. kewl.
In case folks here wonder why I occasionally froth at the mouth extolling electric drive performance, but not otherwise, it’s because I froth when I happened to ride my electric machine just before I posted. Otherwise, my body and brain forget a little bit how incredibly superior full electric performance is and get numbed by all the text of the doubters as well as the folks who seem impressed by electric’s superior efficiency, lower energy, operating and maintenance costs and planet helping, national security and domestic economy improving abilities, which I care less about.
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Sep 15th, 2009 (10:37 pm)Sorry for the days-late reply. My parents drive an F-150 and some CUV whose name I can’t remember. They prefer much bigger cars and are surprised by my preference for small cars especially since I’m a 6′2” 190 lb guy. I guess that’s my reference point for the preferences of older generations.
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Sep 16th, 2009 (7:31 pm)I wonder what the all electric range would be. If it’s 100 miles I’d rather have that than a Volt.
Take my ICE, PLEASE!
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Sep 16th, 2009 (8:23 pm)I really hope GM does eventually make a small, agile, true EV!
However I hope it doesn’t look like a teenager’s car. (I’d prefer something that resembles and competes with a Mini Cooper rather than a Scion.)
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Sep 21st, 2009 (5:13 am)
Oct 23rd, 2009 (8:22 pm)