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Mercedes-Benz Vision S 500 Plug-in HYBRID: to Achieve 73.5 MPG
Mercedes Benz continues to push the electric car envelope in remarkable directions.
The German company has announced it will be unveiling what it calls the Vision S 500 Plug-in HYBRID at the Frankfurt Auto Show next week.
This is a full size S-class high luxury high performance sedan that can drive up to 18 miles on pure electricity. It is not a range-extended electric car like the BlueZero Cell Plus concept previously unveiled, but rather a parallel PHEV.
The vehicle uses a 6 cylinder gasoline engine as the main powerplant which is integrated with a 44 kw (60 hp) electric motor. There is a rechargeable 10 kw usable lithium ion battery pack mounted in the rear. Mercedes points out that this battery location is “crucial” to maintain weight balance and allow a substantial size for the gas tank.
The weighty car can accelerate from 0 to 60 in 5.5 seconds. It will drive purely on electricity when possible but the gas engine will go on any time power demands increase sufficiently such as with strong acceleration and hill climbing.
The on-board charger allows recharge in 4.5 hours at 120 V but is capable of accepting a fast charge at 20 kW in 60 minutes.
Mercedes has also announced the car will achieve a fuel efficiency of 3.2L/100 km which translates to 72.5 MPG, and will emit a 74 gCO2/km.
Obviously no pricing has been announced yet, but expect it to be north of 100K. Mercedes does report the car is “near-series production” and that it will likely be launched as a member of the next generation of S-class hybrids. In fact reports suggest the entire S-class line will be hybrids.
“Although it will take some time before this model can go into series production, our engineers will be working full steam to carry out the necessary integration measures and ensure that all components can meet the tough everyday demands required of a luxury long-distance saloon,” says Dr. Thomas Weber, member of the Board of Management of Daimler AG with responsibility for Group Research and Mercedes-Benz Cars Development. “We’ve already got all the key technology we need for such a dream car, which is why I see it being included in the next generation of the S‑Class. The important thing now is that our development work be accompanied by the establishment of a full-coverage infrastructure that will allow the potential of this innovative drive system to be fully exploited.”
Right now Mercedes has the $87,950 S400 Blue Hybrid in production, which uses a 3.5L V-6 gas engine combined with a 15kW motor and 1 kwh lithium ion pack, and achieves 19 MPG city and 26 MPG highway fuel efficiency.
Source (Mercedes-Benz)
114 Responses to “Mercedes-Benz Vision S 500 Plug-in HYBRID: to Achieve 73.5 MPG”
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September 12th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Bring it on. The more the merrier.Electrification is coming for sure.Regardless of the form this takes, GM deserves a lot of credit with the openness with the Volt. This car is obviously is in a different class. But 70 some miles per gallon? Wow.
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September 12th, 2009 at 9:32 am
For this kind of money you can buy 2 Volts and get 231 MPG
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September 12th, 2009 at 9:32 am
I read until I saw the price! I agree that the more the merrier as far as competition, but those price ranged 80K and higher aren’t really competitors any more than a Lamborghini.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 9:35 am
Randy,
You MIGHT be able to buy three Volts! The price won’t really be announced until next year. Just a thought.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 9:39 am
I look forward to the day when the term “hybrid” disappears because virtually all vehicles have some sort of electrical assist. My guess is we are only 5-10 years away from that time.
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September 12th, 2009 at 9:48 am
$100K+ ?!?!? I think I would buy the Karma if I was looking to spend that kind of money ….. not that I am. The Karma is a better looking car anyway.
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September 12th, 2009 at 9:52 am
I cant afford this car so I’m sure no one else can, also even if I could afford it, it would still be foolish to get one when you consider the cost of a used 2 year old Corolla.. so I am also positive everyone else will feel the same way.
I thought it would be a good idea to get this out of the way early in the thread
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September 12th, 2009 at 9:55 am
I agree ronr64. I think very soon hybrid features will be as commonplace as power steering is today and the term will be kind of redundant. The marketing focus will move to energy consumption per distance driven and perhaps CO2 emmisions, as is already happening in some articles now.
We’re on the verge of an awesome revolution of the automotive industry and I’m loving it.
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September 12th, 2009 at 9:57 am
With the many recent announcements it looks like the Frankfurt Auto Show is going to be a spring board for energy independence and cleaner air. Good going Mercedes Benz and to all others involved in EV/hybrid development.
Video clip: Mercedes Benz S400 Blue
http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=Mercedes+Benz+electric&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&tnr=21&vid=0001319711954
=D~
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September 12th, 2009 at 10:24 am
I fully agree with you, LazP! I’ve long held the view that the exact architecture of a PHEV drive train shoud not constrain its ability to achieve high mpg figures. And as others have pointed out here, mileages higher than 72.5 mpg achieve rapidly-dimishing returns in fuel savings on an annualized basis!
This PHEV employs a 3.5L V6 and a 44 kW/60 hp electric motor that gives it a 0-62 mph time of 5.5 sec and up to an 18-mile electric range according to Daimler. They’ll only say its Li-Ion battery pack is “over 10 kWh”. And I find the cancelled plug-in VUE’s specs remarkably similar with its 3.5L V6 and its TWO 50kW/75 hp electric motors. And the weight of the two vehicles probably won’t differ dramatically. BTW, GM has asked its suppliers for that car’s drive train components to continue making them in readiness for production.
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September 12th, 2009 at 10:28 am
This car is all fine and dandy, but it’s annoying when manufacturers come out and say somethng like: “but is capable of accepting a fast charge at 20 kW in 60 minutes.”
Its not like that you can find one of these magical charging stations on every street corner when you’re on a road trip. It may as well be Hydrogen.
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September 12th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Actually, I’ll plan on getting 462 miles per gallon with my two Volts! Heck, I might even be able to buy 10 and get something close to infinity mpg.
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September 12th, 2009 at 10:37 am
I’m also impressed by the MPG figures. Mercedes patrons with money to spare have got to be salivating over the chance to outperform, outfeel, and out-efficiency the Prius owners that have been giving them the business for years. The 25% higher 74 gCO2/km compared to the Prius Plug-in is pretty good, but not good enough to ‘out-green’ those who do their homework.
I’d like to see a side-by-side comparison of how Benz tweaked its ICE turn on vs. that of the Volt.
NPNS!!! =D~~~
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September 12th, 2009 at 10:37 am
I think that it is
********************************************
EXTREMELY MERITORIOUS
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for more and more OEM’s to redirect high-end retail income toward E-REV and other designs that greatly reduce the initial daily usages of gasoline.
Getting all OEM’s on board with the killing off of those first 20 to 40 miles a day gasoline usage via battery is the most important thing that can be done. This is really a moral imperative no matter how much money you have to spend for getting a new vehicle, and I sincerely applaud any OEM for even telling us that they are beginning to head our way as future customers!!
While most compare the details of specs, I am more prone to consider that an OEM has begun to publish their progress or at least their intent to use battery/electric to cut the first 20 to 40 miles of gasoline usage electrically.
While in the past I’ve seemed to be perceived to be anti-BEV by some people who know me (here in Austin). I am not at all anti-BEV. Although it may not seem as like I support BEV (which I most certainly DO!!), it is just that in my line of work I see technological calamities every day, and, (while the small BEV operations I know of are *****ALWAYS***** careful to never oversell or sell to someone for whom a BEV would not be right for a second vehicle), my BEV admonishments instead are directed to the calling out all the huge OEM’s regarding their BEV marketing, in my “holding their toes to the warranty fire”, is because there has not yet been sufficient public education as to whose situation is practicable for a BEV. But more importantly than that, the warranty “in-house replacement economies of scale” in pricing a second battery wholesale cost and installation into any BEV is important, because it provides for an assured resale value to undereducated customers (the overwhelming majority, I’d bet), whom accidentally overload and undercharge their battery packs.
That way, if they decide the BEV isn’t for them (or they really “blew it” somehow), then they can get that second battery and resell the BEV to a person with driving and milder usage “needs”, with a clear conscience and that new traction battery.
This is because it is these “hard lessons” that get learned the fastest and told the fastest for those whom only can learn from “the hard way” (not their fault). It really greatly protects these huge BEV OEM’s both in the short run, as well in the long run.
This is why I am in absolute favor of the 10 year/150,000 mile battery warranty with a built-in one time free replacement (no matter what happened (excluding immediately-occurring design shortfall), but for customer-responsible errors).
You just can’t do better than that!! And, there can’t be any valid complaints if the original owner abuses the second battery by overloading it or undercharging it habitually if the first “hard lesson” was not learned from the first time.
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September 12th, 2009 at 10:38 am
You are right Gary. I do think that in 10 years, however, you will see charging stations around as there are many car companies announcing the intention to bring plug-in electric cars to the market place in the next couple years. Hydrogen …. not so much. At least at home you can get a 240V outlet in your garage relatively easy.
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September 12th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Amen! That sure sounds nice.
NPNS!! =D~~~
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September 12th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Now that every car company and its sister is launching some form of hybrid, I think the next step for the industry is the imminent launch of non-me-too products. Toyota launched the Prius more than ten years ago and the vast majority of hybrid offerings since then have been Prius-like. The first true variant on the theme is the Volt, and we’re now seeing a number of concepts that glom onto the EREV idea. I think that next year’s auto shows will see an explosion of truly unique EV’s. Here are some ideas that are sure to be turned into concept cars soon:
*hydraulic hybrid with pneumatic valves (the new owners of Saab are talking this up)
*EV minivan
*EV pickup truck with additional gas engine that fits onto the tow hitch for towing needs (I know that most people on this site hate towed EREV boosters, but this is a little different–it would be an integral part of the tow hitch assembly and therefore relatively simple to add on as part of the towing process)
*EV’s designed from the ground up for the taxi market (single driver canopy, lots of passenger space and amenities, emphasis on regen braking efficiency, swappable battery, etc.)
*EV with small booster ICE engine that simply attenuates the available capacity. The Volt, for example, can get enough juice from its ICE to provide 100% of the required power to recharge the battery. But what if you could reuce the weight of the ICE by 75% and produce only enough electricity generation to recharge the battery at half its required rate? Suddenly, a 40 mile EV range turns into a 100 mile combined range. If you’re going farther than 100 miles, you just pull over and wait 15 minutes for the gas engine to catch up with you. Not an ideal solution, obviously, but it would solve about 95% of the range anxiety problem and is worthy of someone’s engineering budget.
I admit that some of these ideas are half-baked, but if the dozen or so major carmakers each concentrated on one half-baked idea, then at least a few would come out cooked perfectly, and we would see more variety in this market than we see today (Oh, look-Mercedes just built another boring HEV for $100K. How exciting!)
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September 12th, 2009 at 10:50 am
People who can afford a Benz rarely look at the mpg sticker on the car , MPG is after thought , I went to the show room drove every model they had , I picked out the e320 then I asked the salesman what the fuel miles I could expect to see 24 city 28 highway , It really wouldn’t have made a bit of difference if he would have said 12c – 17h
#5 Evil I am looking at the karma ,, And as the owner of a high end engine shop , wear in the world do you get the fisker Karma fixed and what about the parts , Give NAPA a call and ask them for a Karma brake rotor or any part for that matter they would laugh you off the phone , but with V S500 benz any mid size town can get the car back on the road if a problem came up . I can afford any car I what , But I have Fix anxiety , meaning I take my Ferrari 150 to 200 miles away from my shop then who do I trust to fix it . I’ll take the V S500 .
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September 12th, 2009 at 10:55 am
So it can go up to 18 miles at low speed using “more than 10 kWh”. That works out to less than 2 miles per kWh. Quite a contrast to the Volt claims of 5 miles per kWh. Me thinks reality for the Volt may be nearer 3.5 miles per kWh. Lets see what the Plug in Prius gets in a few days with a lighter more aerodynamic vehicle using a smaller electric motor.
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Let’s see, if it costs $110,000 after all options and fees. And I get a 6% loan, and finance it for 8 years.
$1,445/month
Totally worth the gas savings!
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Got to tip my hat to Mercedes. They invented the car and after 130 years are still pushing the innovation envelope.
The parallel approach makes sense in this application. With all these different approaches to incorporate electification it will be interesting to see what evolves as the standard. Its like we are in the early days of the VCR with beta and VHS fighting it out now. But another format could come along and blow everything else away like DVD. (Of course now digital storage has made DVD obsolete.)
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Yawn. Another mild plug-in.
What we need is some competition for the Volt. Specifically:
• Something with at least 30 miles of all-electric range
• From a major car maker with a large network of dealerships
• With an announced production date
• That costs around $30K after tax credits
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Lyle, I really like the gm-volt dot com website, and visit allcarselectric regularly. I want to thank you for what you do here. That being said, I want to let you know I am very disapointed with one of the advertisers on allelectriccars. When I clicked on a link there to read a story the website redirected me to another website which pretended to take over my computer like a virus protection program. Realizing that this was all being done in internet explorer, I used ctrl-alt-delete to close the window, after the website tried to download a program to my machine! NOT COOL! Please review the website and take this kinf of thing off or you will lose many viewers. Thanks
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:44 am
BTW, GM has asked its suppliers for that car’s drive train components to continue making them in readiness for production.
That’s really quite encouraging. The Ford Fusion Hybrid has shown there is a market for “standard” cars with a hybrid option so long as the hybrid option delivers significantly better mileage (IOW the 2 MPG for the Malibu won’t work as an option).
As the DOE predicted, seems like we’ll see more and more parallel hybrids come to market. A few of those will make a big difference because, as you say, once you get to 75 MPG (even 50 MPG) you’ve captured the vast majority of the potential gas savings.
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:46 am
An S class sedan is basically a $100K to $200K car. Not exactly what you might call a volume seller. So a $20K premium given the standard prices can’t really that big of a deal.
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:46 am
DVD is digital. I think you mean solid state is slowly replacing magnetic and optical discs.
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:48 am
As long as you can plug in and charge up, you are offsetting petroleum with electricity. There will be countless configurations from mild hybrid to BEV, so we will see what the market prefers for the given segment – sedan, truck, SUV, sport coupe, etc.
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:54 am
DonC
20K isn’t a big deal? Uh, to me it is and I’d venture a guess it is to most people here. Then again, most people here might not be in the market for this vehicle.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:55 am
(click to show comment)
September 12th, 2009 at 11:58 am
At least they are not trying to lie about their mileage. Unlike GM and their co-workers at the EPA who’s deceptive tactics have went over like a lead balloon.
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Dan,
Won’t overcharging/undercharging be “prohibited” by the software?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Doofus Alert:
Try using a real browser. There are plenty to choose from.
Safari, Firefox, Chrome, Opera, etc.
IE is nothing but junkware. Grow a pair and get a real man’s browser.
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Half-baked….ummm NO…try totally rotten. Rethink your position and get back with us when you come into contact with reality.
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Im at work. We can’t download programs. Don’t be a j a c k a s s ! I’m tring to help the other users here who may not be as computer capable as genius’ like you. You wickdeed!
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Rockymtn,
I love half-baked ideas! Anything that brings electrification, especially to the larger vehicles, should be “on the table” somewhere.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Be advised that GM’s hydrogen power cars out on public roads for quite awhile now have surpassed ONE MILLION ROAD MILES. All those miles with ZERO EMISSIONS. Hydrogen is for real all you doubters and haters. Deal with it.
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
I hope you don’t hurt yourself with those yardbird guesses. What should not be allowed is for Hybrids to masquerade as Electrics and use the term EV. EV should be reserved for true electrics like Tesla Roadster and Nissan LEAF. The term HYBRID should be mandated for vehicles like Toyota Prius, Ford Fusion and yes the Chevy Volt. DROP THE LETTERS EV FROM DECEPTIVE MARKETING CAMPAIGNS.
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Van,
Or the Volt may get nearer to 6 miles per kWh. Same reasoning.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Given that the S-class is a big heavy car, I’m assuming that the 72.5 MPG figure is only during the electric boost. In other words, they will probably get 72.5 MPG for the first 18 miles, and then around 22 MPG after that.
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
Prius ………………… 228
S-class PHEV ………. 329
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
In other words, using a real world driving scenario, they probably average around 35 MPG. No so great after all.
In addition, remember that with cars like these, you have to to go to the gas station every week and plug in every night, which makes it somewhat inconvenient. With an EREV, you only have to go to the gas station every 2-3 months, and plugging in every night takes less time than going to the gas station every week, so that makes EREVs more convenient than a regular car.
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Omnim
Maybe a bit steep (g), but then again, it’s not all about savings.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Bruce,
I agree that the current process is really fluid and will sort itself out in time. That so many approaches are being tried is really exciting!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
For the mainstream public, one of the biggest issues is convenience.
Plugging in every night takes about 30 seconds, and another 30 seconds to unplug every morning, so this ends up being around 7 minutes per week.
Going to the gas station takes longer. After you drive there, wait in line, pump, and pay, it usually takes me 10-15 minutes.
With the Volt, you only go to the gas station once every 2-3 months. With a regular gas engine car, you basically have to gas up every week. Since 7 minutes a week to plug/unplug is significantly less than 10-15 minutes to gas up, the Volt is more convenient than a regular car
But most PHEVs don’t save that much gas over the regular hybrid version, so you have to go to the gas station about once a week, and plug/unplug every day. So the PHEV is significantly less convenient than a regular car
Car ……………….. Fueling Time
EREV …………….. 7 minutes per week
Regular Car …….. 10-15 minutes per week
PHEV …………..… 17-22 minutes per week
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
That’s one opinion. If a car can drive on any road in America under only electric power, then I consider it an EV. There are pure EVs and other EVs, like EREVs. I think it would be wonderful if we reach the point where the Volt would be considered nothing but a hybrid. On that note, since the term ‘hybrid’ is in no way descriptive, what should the volt be classified as? A non-electric vehicle?
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Unfortunately, the EV helps differentiate hybrids from each other since not all hybrid schemes use electric power. If something needs to be dropped to make things clearer I recommend dropping the ER instead. extended-range (ER) does not always make clear where the additional range comes from. Also at what point does “extended” begin? For example an ERGV could be a gasoline vehicle with REALLY LARGE gas tank, a gasoline vehicle that is REALLY REALLY lightweight, or a gasoline vehicle that reforms hydrocarbons on board and burns pure hydrogen in a ICE.
I prefer a alphanumeric code that gives primary trip and secondary trip ranges.
For example my 2000 Buick ATGV-176/400
The Volt would be PSHGGEV-40/400(300?)
The Plug-in Prius would be PPHEAGV-20/400
The regular Prius would be PHEAGV-500/400
This would be more precise. However, if people are so easily deceived I doubt whether labels will help them much.
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Okay, several real browsers can run from a USB thumb drive. Try http://portableapps.com. And then just “stick it” to your company’s Doofus IT department. BTW, any IT department that would standardize on IE is just asking for trouble. Your IT management needs a serious overhaul. It’s what I do for a living. I am the guy that cleans up the mess that bad IT managers leave behind.
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September 12th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Hey, hey! Yet another troll!
If you want to be taken seriously, be respectul to others will ya? And remember, when the ZEV mandate was killed by CARB, not only GM but others like Toyota that everyone thinks is so green, Ford who is touting their green Fusion, etc. all killed their EV programs.
They are all ultimately driven by desire for more money…pure greed. To do so, they’ll pretend to be anything & everything. However, as long as I get a VOLT or another good EREV
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September 12th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Tactful…NOT! Rethink your relationship with your keyboard and get back to us when you have something useful to say.
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September 12th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
No worries Ricky he lacks the sack to actually say things to people’s faces. Maybe machines are his only friends?
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September 12th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Now that’s the kind of useful contribution I’m talking about. Good job.
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September 12th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Not including any configuration of Plug-In FULL hybrid makes that gallon comparison quite incomplete.
Don’t feed the greenwashing opportunity by having something so vital missing.
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September 12th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
It’s more accurate to say they are emphasizing the advantages of series hybrid. They weren’t the most relevant numbers, but they weren’t lies.
They went over like a lead balloon because they didn’t tell the whole story. It’s even a bit of stretch to say they were deceptive. 230 MPG in this new EPA CITY cycle is quite realistic and captures the advantages of the series hybrid in the city quite well.
What remains to be seen is the what we can only assume is the less impressive HWY number.
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September 12th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Then again, most people here might not be in the market for this vehicle.
This would seem to be right up your alley. It’s just the way people think about purchases. Our brains tend to use percentages rather than absolute numbers when calculating price. The same person who might refuse to pay an extra fifty cents for a gallon of milk will pay $20K more for a $500K house because “it’s really not that much more.” Obviously $20K is way more than fifty cents, but the fifty cents is a much larger percentage. (There is a psychologist who won a Nobel prize in economics for his insights into this and other types of economic behavior. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman)
The $20K extra on a $150K car is somewhere in between but someone who is willing to spend $150K on a car is probably over the edge in the first place.
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September 12th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
DonC,
I kinda thought that that was where you were going with the 20K. People are funny creatures. Back in my *early* HS years the Boy Scouts sold Easter eggs for fund raisers. They were 10 cents a piece, but I sold mine for 15 cents each – but if you buy two you get one FREE. Sold a lot of Easter eggs until the principal got wind of it and shut me down (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
/50 cents MORE for a gallon of milk??? 50 cents used to **cover** a gallon of milk!
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
jdsv
I think it’ll be wonderful when the Volt is able to run strictly on VOLTS! Maybe the generator will be a good “option” once V2G and V2H are factors.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
BEVs don’t have to price in a second battery because BEVs aren’t required to have a 10/150K warranty on the battery. That requirement is only for PHEVs.
The battery isn’t such a big deal. Your post actually makes the point that the biggest problem is that consumers will undervalue the battery at EOL. While your post assumes that at EOL the battery will have no value, it should have other uses and a surprisingly high residual value.
Nissan wants to lease the battery to address this problem. It thinks that it can recapture a good deal of the cost of the battery at EOL, so it can offer to lease the battery for considerably less that the purchase price might suggest.
Personally I like the Tesla approach of making a replacement battery an option. You could for example make money offering a replacement option at less than a third the current cost of the existing battery pack because: (1) you have the money years before you incur the cost of making the battery; (2) the cost of the battery packs should trend downwards; and (3) the traded in pack will have a residual battery. For example, if you assume (very conservatively) the cost of money is 5%, that the price of cells will drop by 5% a year, and the residual value of the cells will be $1500, then GM could offer an option to replace the cells for $1000 on a break even basis, even after only 8 years.
I suspect that it could offer a replacement option for $2500 at ten years — which makes the numbers much more favorable — you’d make a couple of thousand dollars just on the cost of money and the downward trend of cell costs along even without considering the residual value of the cells — and get a lot of takers. (I’d do it in a heartbeat).
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Overloading is having a “lead foot” on the accelerator and abusing the heck out of everything.
Undercharging is not connecting the charging cord every night. Or, making it a bad habit to not plug in quite a few times each week. While not making an immediately-noticeable difference at the front end of the battery life, it may make an absolutely huge difference toward the end of the intended battery life, especially when the vehicle is up for resale.
I think that these instances ought to be counted within unerasable fault code items, so that the next buyer can get at least some indication of how the battery and electric motor and controller, etc, were treated by the owner. THAT ought to be made to help resale and trade in if the vehicle was treated well.
If it was treated like a roller-coaster ride frequently, then I would want to know it and not recommend my customer to buy it from the abusive home it was in.
This scenario when people come home with a lot of groceries in hand, or the cellphone in hand, have the intention of coming back out to plug in, and then forgetting.
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Wealthy, middle class, or aspiring student. Does anyone like service station stops? It’s very good to see more high end battery assisted vehicles coming to the world market.
Only 1 in 100 people who read these posts will buy an EV priced at over $100k. Perhaps 1 in 10 will buy a lower price range EV within two years. It’s likely that 1 in 2 folks will buy an electric assist vehicle, of some kind, within 10 years.
In 10 years most vehicles on the road will attain 40+ mpg. Many, like the Volt, will attain 100+ mpg. It’s all good.
=D~
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Evil Con,
You just *had* to bring up hydrogen, didn’t you (g)(sigh)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
The number of Teslas out there (~600) already surpassed the amount of hydrogen cars in the US COMBINED. That’s just one company with an expensive niche sports car. If you add up all the miles traveled by plug-ins it’ll greatly surpass a million miles. (just need 100 cars going 10k miles, easily accomplished in roughly 1-2 years).
This doesn’t count the conversions and EVs from the late 90s. I know of a couple of people who have been traveling REAL ZERO EMISSIONS for almost a decade already with their RAV4 EVs and a solar panels. With hydrogen you are still using natural gas. On the same criteria, real actual owners of EVs have traveled zero emissions far more than GM’s experiment. So far there isn’t a hydrogen car out there that someone can own yet. Until then I can’t help but be skeptical. Hopefully they come out with real cars for sale soon rather than only doing experiments.
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Dan,
Sounds like batteries behave a lot like people. Abuse in the early years may go unnoticed until much later in life.
Thanks,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
EOL batteries are really only the vehicular life of the battery. Theyre are many people/groups that have voiced interest in post-vehicular battery use – like load leveling in large buildings.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
I’ve mentioned a few times that Mercedes has repalced Buick as the prototypic ride for grandparents. More support for this observation comes the Engadget’s headline on the new S500 hybrid. The headline reads:
Mercedes-Benz Vision S 500: it’s the plug-in hybrid for old people
Ouch. Noted in the text is that Mercedes is requesting “70+ aged drivers only, please.”
http://www.engadget.com/
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
This has got to be bumming out Elon Musk and Tesla. The competition is definitely coming for the high end luxury sports sedan hybrid/electric segment that Tesla is targeting.
It DOES make a lot of sense for Mercedes to be electrifying their cars as much as possible. After all, one of the main things that people look for when they shop for a $70K+ vehicle is a super quiet, smooth driving experience … along with high performance and all the luxury bells and whistles you usually see in that segment.
Of course, this is THE segment that Cadillac needs to go after aggressively. I think Cadillac probably needs a “makeover” of it’s “signature front end” that you see on most of their cars. They should make it look, er, a bit more like a Bimmer, Benz or Lexus. Why NOT? Sometimes you gotta change and go with what’s “working” like they say in the movie business.
I think Cadillac needs to stop trying to be TOO unique in the exteriors of their cars. I’m not wild about the horizontal headlight thing on the front end of Cadillac sedans. I think it looks fine on the Cadillac SUVs and crossovers, but not so much for the 2 door coupes and 4 door sedans. I think the front end exterior “look” is more crucial to people’s buying decisions than they’ll admit.
GM ought to think of the front end as a bit like the “face” of a person or an animal. Animals, like a Jaguar for example, are on all 4 fours just like cars have 4 wheels you know.
I think of the headlamps as the pupils of the eyes and the headlamp covers as like a person’s sunglasses. There’s only so many shapes of sunglasses that look “cool” to me. GM ought to be on a quest to figure what the coolest looking headlamp cover “sunglasses” are. Then put THE best ones on the cars they expect to be bestsellers. Maybe they should talk to the people at “Sunglass Hut” or Ray-Ban or something.
Bottom line, Cadillac needs to be immediately in consideration along with BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, and Lexus when people go shopping for those kinds of cars. I’ve read some excellent reviews about the CTS-V as far as the powertrain and the suspension goes. Just make the exterior and interior better and better for future versions and Cadillac will do great. They are on the right track so far. Just keep on tweaking and optimizing those Caddies.
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
A strong plug-in full hybrid would be great.
Unfortunately, Toyota is only offering a plug-in version of the Prius with 12 miles of range. To me, that’s a mild plug-in version of a full hybrid.
Hymotion and other aftermarket companies offer more range, but as I understand it, this uses the area of the spare tire well. The result is poor weight distribution, questionable rear-end crash safety, and probably less than 10-years of battery life. Remember that these aftermarket companies are relatively small, so they stand to lose less in any potential lawsuit.
To be clear, I have no real problem with Toyota’s synergy drive, planetary gear, power split device, or whatever you want to call it. For a non-plug-in car, I think the Prius is the best.
My problem has to do with the relatively small battery and electric motor on Toyota’s plug-in Prius. If Toyota offered a car with around 40 miles of electric range, and they replaced the permanent magnet electric motor with a more powerful induction electric motor of the same size and weight, so that the gas engine didn’t have to turn on at all for the first 40 miles, I would consider that over the Volt.
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
I think caution ought to be kept in mind outside of leasing.
But, also, I regularly see worn-out hybrid battery vehicle owners that do not re-invest ($2800+) in even the smaller hybrid batteries in the compact hybrids. They consider that they are being proprietarily-forced to take a huge trade-in hit way below overinflated “average resale” or “average trade in” published values (when the battery goes bad at those mileages at about~135k).
This is what may also be the case with BEV batteries (non-leased), if the buyer does not have all the facts, which I would consider to be unfair.
I believe that BEV’s ought at least have, at the point of initial new sale, (for a true “meeting of the minds”):
1. A “locked-in” wholesale cost replacement option at a previously-agreed replacement at wholesale-guaranteed-cost when or if it is time, so that they would know before buying it.
(I don’t at all suppose costs will come down hardly at all. I want the guarantees up front so there is strong motivation to get those costs down!!).
AND:
2. Be able to have everything covered in a *available* “bumper to bumper” warranty configuration to 100,000 miles or 7 years or so, most certainly inclusive of the Battery, Motor, Controller, and everything else.
Not all BEV’s will be available with battery leases, I’d bet. But we will all have to see.
Discussing this here is certainly helpful as logistics for considerations for not only OEM’s but for the buyers as well.
Now is the time to head off problems during the policy-setting stages for upper management. (Especially for the ones who are big enough to be far less likely to go out of business). I’d trust GM, but not the others for these promises to be able to be kept.
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September 12th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Even though the M-B has a price north of $100k, the Toyota Prius trolls will still claim it’s a batter car.
No. It’s not. It’s just the only hybrid they can afford.
The same will be true for the VOLT. It will be a larger, better equipped car than the Prius, with a proportionately larger price tag.
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September 12th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
The main difference between a 20kW charger and a hydrogen station is the 20kW charger costs under $10k (Tesla’s 16.8kW home charger costs $3k) and a single hydrogen dispenser station costs about $250k (capital costs all together is ~$500k, an EV charging station should have much lower total capital costs since all you need is an electrical connection and space to park the car). Even a 100kW rapid charger (this can fully charge the Volt’s battery from empty in about 5-10 minutes if the battery can support it) will cost only about $100k.
http://www.teslamotors.com/electric/charging.php
http://www.energyindependencenow.org/pdf/fs/EIN-HowMuchWillHydrogenInfr.pdf
You are talking about 5-25x the cost for hydrogen dispensing. That is the MAJOR difference in cost. And from the way things are going on the hydrogen front, a bulk of the money to build hydrogen stations will be from government, since there is so far a lack of interest in building hydrogen stations without huge government subsidies (understandable given the expense and the total lack of hydrogen cars to use it).
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September 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Even when “half-baked” ideas are posted, very often, there is some very little thing in there that has this really interesting and potentially-promising aspect to it that might take us into a very useful discussion.
It also means people are trying their very best to help, which ought not be faulted. Remember, all of us started out knowing nothing at all. Relentless effort to help is appreciated. And, it is certainly the right kind of American Spirit.
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September 12th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Dan,
Well put.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
“….they will probably get 72.5 MPG for the first 18 miles, and then around 22 MPG after that.”
Reading from Lyle’s post at top: “that can drive up to 18 miles on pure electricity.”
Pure electricity . . .AER. All Electric Range.
It’s got a 10kwh battery after all (over 1/2 the size of the volt’s). So if you operated it in EV mode for the first 18 miles you’re going to use no gas.
Your 22 mpg after the grid charge runs out may be correct, guess we’ll find out next week.
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September 12th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Dave K,
Personally, I intend to increase the number of my gas station visits with my Volt. Just to smile and silently cruse by the poor gas pumpers will be a real treat….
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Hey Tag,
While yes, load leveling second life, etc.. But one thing about the rapid rate of advancements, what people (or institutions)
“say” they “will” “do” at this time, may not be so often what they will do later, due to “intervening events”. (Such as, well, something like eestor). We just do not know what might or might not advance for us to cause us to be able to hold onto our electrified ride as long as we would want or need.
Corporations are fiduciary-obligated to perform in the best interests of what is written down in contracts. (Not what might be spoken as “interest”). That is why I want help how I can, readers here to have what knowledge possible to help drive the requirements for advancement via “what is written down” in contractual detail for their fully-informed consent at point of sale, with all this new stuff happening (and not happening) all around us.
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September 12th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Most Americans have already recognized the mighty Prius as the best hybrid in the country. There is no Volt for sale anytime soon bozo. Give it up for the Prius. Toyota will pounce on GM’s latest attempt at another hybrid at their own time and choosing. The only thing for sure is that it will be ugly for GM.
- Wicked
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September 12th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
I doubt that highly. It probably uses the J1711 methodology, or something similar. If anything, I welcome it as it tends to confirm that the annual average gasoline miles per gallon of a 230 mpge of the Volt, is very realistic. The Volt has twice as much electricity to substitute for gasoline, in a car half a ton lighter. That 230 mpge will usually actually be exceeded, by drivers averaging under 14,000 miles driven per year.
Dr Frank’s work at UC Davis and the work of his graduate students proved out their expereince on hybrids of various types, that they pioneered. . But of all these hybrid designs, experience will re-confirm the superiority of EREV series-electric designs over parallel-series designs. But both separately and together, will drive the final death blow to the OPEC cartel. I will welcome the return of Oil to somewhere near cost of production.
Won’t it be absolutely delicious to hear the Oil Commissars and Oil Sheiks wailing and crying for us to buy their nationalized oil at any price. Please, Oh please.. Buy my Oil. Pretty Please with whipped cream on top and a cherry too?
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September 12th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
I can see the perception in the sedans, maybe. But I have to say I think it’s a misperception with the other models.
There’s a lot of the upper rich hip — the one’s that want you to know they’ve moved on from BMW — driving around in some very expensive Mercedes.
Just ask Lyle. :0
/that S500 just doesn’t look too good, I’d agree on that one.
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September 12th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Dan,
Uncontested. These are truly exciting times (on a lot of levels).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
I’m looking forward to the day when CO2 has been fullly exposed as pure hokum abd nonsense,. That day is much closer than every car being electrified.
But both will come soon, and a century or two sooner than any harm from an erroneous scare hoax, that depends on saying we will never change from gasoline guzzling ICE cars, for hundreds of years, even as we are in fact doing so.
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September 12th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Tag,
I’m sure glad you’re here to help keep things lightened up.
Sometimes I get too specific in concerns for the customer, but, unless we at this site keep discussing all these things, OEM’s sincerely and honestly might be unable to reestablish or acquire all of these very wide arrays of these very widely held consumer concerns and technical concerns. Not to mention some pretty darn good ideas seen here occasionally from you posters!
Thanks again for being here.
Dan.
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September 12th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Dan,
Never a problem. It’s all good (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
The biggest off-the-wall suggestion is for the CARBite idiots, to level the playing field. Why should a BEV be exempt from having to offer a 150,000 life battery while a EREV must do so? The cost of the warranty provision for the Volt is estimated to ARTIFICIALLY add $8,000 to the cost of the car.
Add standard margins to that and it grows near to $10,000 dollars. So a $40,000 VOLT is really a $30,000 dollar VOLT inflated by the stupid CARB mandate.
BEVs are more dependent on the battery than EREVS. Either no one is penalized; or they are all are penalized, is only fair.
Personally, I would like to see BEVs have to warranty their battery-based vehicles for 120,000 or 10 years, as 12,000 miles per year is the average miles most people drive. . And reduce the EREV current penalty to the same 120,000 miles or ten year warranty too.
Its is also reasonable in that gasoline powered ICE vehicles must keep some of their pollution reducing gear working for 120,000 miles too.
A $30,000 Volt, ($22,500 after $7500 rebate!) is a lot more likely to succeed. We proponents need to get behind such a reform!
The ICEage is ending. Embrace the VOLTage.
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September 12th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
They were 10 cents a piece, but I sold mine for 15 cents each – but if you buy two you get one FREE. Sold a lot of Easter eggs until the principal got wind of it and shut me down (g).
Boy, this is right down your alley! Kahneman’s most recent work has been in the area of how powerful the “FREE offer” is. It basically shows that, across a wide range of situations, what you discovered years ago in fact holds true: People will pay more so long as what they’re getting is “FREE”.
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September 12th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Generally speaking I’m a free market guy so I’d prefer to see fewer rules on the battery warranty. In fact I favor not forcing GM to honor a 10/150 warranty with the Volt. If you force the warranty then you’re effectively raising prices.
My preference would to be let buyers and sellers sort it out themselves. Personally, in order of preference, I’d take: (1) replacement option without a battery warranty; (2) warranty at higher initial price; (3) lower initial price. But many people are less risk averse than I am, and they’d probably prefer a lower price.
This doesn’t strike me as an area where people can’t know the issues, so if there is reasonable disclosure, then people should be left to make their own decisions.
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September 12th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
DonC,
As I said, people are funny creatures. (G) Whatever happens on a work day of shrinkery, it’s never dull. Then again, it absolutely requires a good sense of humor (and a thick skin).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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September 12th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
For something better than half-baked ideas for larger vehicles, check out Bright Automotive. Appropriately enough given the name of the OP here, it comes out of the Rocky Mountain Institute.
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September 12th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
I’m not saying that there is any real reason Mercedes should be the brand for old people, I’m just saying that where I live it is the brand for old people. You rarely see anyone under 65 driving a MB. The exceptions to the rule are: (1) the car was bought over ten years ago when MB had a different image; or (2) the purchaser is not originally from the US.
The snarky comment from Engadget isn’t designed to shape reality as much as it reflects the state of the MB brand.
This was why I was surprised to hear that Lyle drove a MB. Just doesn’t fit with his youthful appearance!
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Gm deserves credit for 5 mpg guzzlers. Toyota for 50 mpg Prius.
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Yes, free market is one thing if you know everything. Most will not. They are not as knowledgeable as yourself. They would be at some sort of disadvantage in not knowing.
I think a major one or as many as ten.
Technicians who work on your ICE do not even know everything they must need to know about your 12 volt car battery!! (What 2 jobs does it need to do?) Every untrained tech I ask gets only one right. Everyone!! I mean Everyone.
There is very little chance 95 % of people will have any clue whatsoever regarding these sorts of options for “free market” to make a valid decision. 99.9 percent of people do not know when a 12 volt battery is beginning to destroy other parts of their vehicles.
I know you want lower price options, but if that is going to happen, it is never the case that a salesperson is going to start to talk “thoroughly” about why one case or another is right for the buyer with those large battery cost numbers flying around the sales draft. It will scare most people to have to make those decisions. People want just a long term secure commitment overall when it comes down to expensive technical things they know they do not understand if they are told of these options.
At least all the battery replacement cost logistics ought to be written down and verbally disclosed “at a cost certain or less”. But that would still stop the sale most likely, because most people think in terms of 3 years average to replace a battery that is a “reasonable” cost 12 volt battery, not a several (at least) -thousand dollar one.
I really think “free market” would mean, “you’re on your own”, and when they plunk down $30,000, they would not understand why in three years, they must continue to make those payments at $650, yet have to come up with another $8,000 just because they are in a “free market”.
However, there is that one saving grace in free market that might help the consumer in 7 years (not 3), and that would be “proprietary competition”, which has not been allowed to happen with the Asian hybrids I would point out, however, to their ultimate customer dissatisfaction at only $2800. Perhaps GM might allow for it, but fiduciary obligations might preclude that.
One guess as to what they will tell you that “free market” means to them, and, what they will do with that car.
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
The “where I live” part of your statement is key here. A lot of it has to do with who’s got the money in the area where you observe.
I think of Mercedes as a $60-$100k and up purchase price. For BMW I’d put that range a little lower (say $40 to $80K). It’s reasonable to assume that a lot of people who would want a Mercedes (or the image it provides) can’t actually afford a new one until they are in their 50’s. The areas I’m observing probably have more new or younger money — so what I’m seeing is likely the exception rather than the rule.
But in these areas, I don’t think the very well to do late 30′ish 40- something car purchaser fears the “I’m going to look old” in this Mercedes thing as much as they desire to set themselves apart form the BMW crowd.
BMW = more performance oriented
Mercedes = more luxury, I’m really rich
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
“Won’t overcharging/undercharging be “prohibited” by the software?”
Yes the software will not permit this.. another way is how GM restricts the lowest charge state to be 30% and the highest 80%.
The killer of lithium batteries is heat.. anything over 130 deg F will shorten the life .. by having a liquid cooling system GM will prevent this, Tesla even uses the AC to cool down the batteries.. the other way to keep them cool is just to use a bigger pack, the bigger pack has a lighter workload and stays cooler.
The other big killer is keeping the cells discharged for even a short time (way below 30%, long term storage of lithium batteries is done at 50% charge).. lead acid also suffers from this but not nimh or nicad batteries.
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
“BEVs don’t have to price in a second battery because BEVs aren’t required to have a 10/150K warranty on the battery. That requirement is only for PHEVs.”
Actually I think this warranty requirement only applies to hybrids such as the Prius or Escape, the reasoning is that the battery is a very important part of the emissions control equipment.
The Volt is mostly a BEV, it would work just fine if someone stole the ice from it.. I think it is exempt from the California CARB requirement.
Without the 10 year warranty, who would buy a used Volt if they knew the 5 year old battery was due for replacement?
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Hey stas,
I like your insistence on a 120,000 mile BEV warranty. Best idea I’ve heard today. That would set up the cost structures to be comparable to Volt in a way, but also, I think if all OEM’s have the same high goals, then you have all manner of aftermarket design competition and independent development wanting to hunt down those future “dollars in reserve”. They might work as hard as they can to earn that money and get those contracts with their new future advancements.
Your “leveling the playing field” is a terrific idea to spur developmental competition for where that money will be.
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
What would you call a Volt IV that did not have a range extending genset and instead received wireless power to extend the range?.. I would still call it an EREV.. how about a Volt VI with a 200kwh pack capable of 666 miles of range?.. again I would still call it an EREV.
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
the scary part is that perhaps all the extra CO2 is keeping us from going into an ice age.. the moment that transportation goes electric may just snap us instantly into it.. perhaps Canada will freeze!
Oh no.. more canadians will flock to Florida.
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Dave, you are describing a BYD F6DM.. perhaps if Penske imported them and distributed them thru the Saturn dealership. Cost would be a lot lower than $30k.
BTW, a car that uses a 60hp electric motor is not a “mild” hybrid.. 7hp like the GM BAS system uses is a mild system.
The plug-in Prius is not mild either, it can do up to 62mph with normal acceleration.. you dont have baby the gas pedal to keep the ICE off.
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Herm,
That is so really true. We just need to have a 10 years 150,000 mile deal, so we can get another one at that 5 years at our option in 2016 or so, while reselling an excellent condition Volt to someone else or trading it in.
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Not including any configuration of any plug-in FULL hybrid is misleading, since you are making the decision for us rather than just providing facts.
Another term for filtering data like that is greenwashing. A clear effort should be made to avoid that. Otherwise, the info will not be taken seriously and will simply be dismissed as incomplete.
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
I hear what you’re saying, but there is also a potential downside for mild plug-ins. If there is not enough gas savings, then plug-ins could get a bad rep. PHEVs with a limited range will not be worth the extra hassle and expense.
By contrast, with 40 miles of AER, you only go to the gas station every 3 months or so – that’s less hassle than a regular gas engine car. And at $4/gallon gas prices, after 10 years, the Volt should cost around the same to own as a Honda Civic.
So we don’t need a hoard of mild plug-ins with 10-18 mile electric boost. This will only convince the masses that plug-ins aren’t worth the trouble, and this could actually delay mass adoption.
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September 12th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Like most PHEVs, the phase “can drive up to 18 miles on pure electricity” means driving below 60 MPH and babying the accelerator. In other words, if you drive it like most people, the gas engine will come on regularly. Still, the electric boost is there, so most PHEVs have 3 ratings:
• Miles electric boost
• MPG during electric boost
• MPG after electric boost
As for the Mercedes S-class – remember that this is a big heavy luxury sports car, I would be very surprized if this got 18 miles AER under normal driving.
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September 12th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
All I care about is:
Torque feet (torque foot pounds divided pounds weight of vehicle plus driver), a power motion to weight measure that allows direct comparison between any types of vehicles.
0-30 mph time.
Maximum torque at 0 rpm.
Instant, smooth, seamless, near linear strong acceleration available at all times.
Luxury quiet in AER.
Gimme performance 100% electric drive at a reasonable price, range extend it however you prefer (ethanol, hydrogen, natural gas, turbine, I don’t care) or no extending at all and that’ll give me what I care about.
It’s obvious by now that all practical 4 door sedan PHEVs will return around 70 MPGe or so for combined city/highway mileage (inlcuding ER-EVs) and full BEVs around 100 MPGe (ca. 25 kWh/100 miles). MPG is sooo last century, so what’ll matter most, sooner rather than later, is on the street performance and handling. If it’s a PHEV, ER-EV, or BEV then you already know it’s super efficient and super low emmissions without needing to look at any details.
Energy consumption per distance and emmissions reductions are so hugely and obviously improved over all full gassers with PHEVs, ER-EVs and BEvs that comparing those metrics between models within PHEVs, ER-EVs and BEVs to each other is silly for a good long time.
In case you haven’t figured out yet who won the PHEV, ER-EV, BEV energy economy war, it’s every single vehicle maker who actually makes them, sells them and gets them on the roads in retails consumers’ hands.
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September 12th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Hopefully, the Frankfurt show will include a true “full reveal” on this car and how they are doing the mpg/AER testing.
But again, I think the key to this current wave of plug-in series/parallel hybrids (escape, prius, S500 etc..) is going to be the programming.
If they can get the programming to know your route/opportunity charging in advance and optimize the feeding in of the battery throughout the days travels, then the mpg results should be substantially better then what we’ve seem from the hymotion conversions. (Ford has consistently been reporting 80 to 120 mpg on 30 mile cycles with a 10 kwh battery).
Whether or not they’ll market this optimized programming in gen 1 remains to be seen as well. I could see them holding back in order to sell you an upgrade at a later date.
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September 12th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Off topic.
GM may be putting out a BEV after all.
But just . . . . not . . . . . . HERE.
GM’s Spark looking to ride on Reva’s technology
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/5001598.cms
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September 12th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Me thinks there be trolls under yonder rocks!
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September 12th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
The hybrids options for standard models just need to have good perceived value. The Malibu BAS hybrid would have done fine if it sold for<$1000 more than the comparable model. For some reason, GM Jedi mind-tricked themselves into believing efficiency conscious consumers are suckers and a green hybrid emblem is worth $2k to these buyers.
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September 12th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Consider the evolution of computers and handheld devices. Our market is already quite accustom to progressive improvements. The next model being an upgrade is an expectation. Heck, we even welcome the choice of storage capacity sizes.
Your worried feeling and resulting actions are clearly unnecessary.
In fact, the one-size-fits-all approach is pretty much doomed. History is loaded with failure examples based on not being given a choice.
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September 12th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
I knew you guys would react.
Does Toyota pay you clowns by the word or just a flat minimum wage salary?
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September 12th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
Wow. They get that MB to 60 in 5.5 secs? Speedy.
Every electric (assist, hybrid, plug-in or otherwise) displaces gasoline or diesel. When we displace enough, we can recall our troops permanently. I welcome every single electric produced.
It’s going to be a blast to see where this goes in the next decade. We are sitting on the 50-yard-line in the next industrial revolution. Hopefully, our inventions won’t get too smart to take over.
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September 13th, 2009 at 4:16 am
I would feel a lot better if there were at least 1 other car like the Volt. Specifically:
• Something with at least 30 miles of all-electric range
• From a major car maker with a large network of dealerships
• With an announced production date
• That costs around $30K after tax credits
The Volt is the only car that meets this basic criteria, so that worries me.
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September 13th, 2009 at 7:52 am
I strongly suggest you study hybrid history, with emphasis on Two-Mode. It appears as though you are not aware of the consequences certain decisions can have. The risk may not be worth the resulting outcome. Market dynamics are quite complicated.
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September 13th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
No forward revolution cause we are actually going backwards to where we came. Electric Vehicles were here first then came the smelly gasoline cars. No recall of troops no matter what because we will always need to project our strength to the rest of the world as they try to flex their muscles at the world’s only superpower.
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September 13th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Just a minute cowboy my GM truck gets 7 mpg that’s not fair. Yeah the Prius is sweet but don’t try pulling your house with it.
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September 13th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
You stink of GM Sheep. Take a bath.
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September 14th, 2009 at 11:07 am
I guess I should say “the more, the better”. But this is a very high end vehicle that will not sell but in low volume world wide. Once they make all the “S” models as hybrids, it may be more helpful.
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September 14th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Same here. I don’t have the money for a Karma either, but I’d go series plugin over parallel plugin any day.
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September 15th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
At $90k USD the Benz is immaterial in the scheme of things. What king of green impact will a handfull of those things make? Coaxing the wealthy to be a little green won’t accomplish anything.
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