Sometimes in our little world of GM-Volt.com it becomes hard to know how much consumer interest there really is in cars like the Volt.
Clearly there is interest, but how widespread is it, and more so how many people are actually considering buying one?
Pike research did a study to determine just these facts.
In a web-based prospective study of 1,041 respondents, it was determined that 48% of prospective US customers would be either “very” or “extremely” interested in buying a plug-in car with a 40 mile EV range, like the Volt. This was assuming electricity cost was 75 cents per gallon equivalent, home recharging, additional around town chargers, and the right features and price. Less than 20% had little or no interest.
The study also showed most buyers were willing to pay a premium for such a car. 49% said they would pay a 5 to 10% premium over a comparable gas car and 17% were willing to pay between 20% and 50% more. One-third said they would not pay a premium. The average premium people were willing to pay was 12%.
Of those who would not consider buying a PHEV-40, 45% said they wanted to technology to be more proven and 33% said 40 miles was insufficient. 29% disliked the idea of plugging in and thought it would be expensive, 28% thought the cars would be unreliable, and 25% felt the cars would be of lower quality.
The study also found that 82% of respondents drive less than 40 miles per day, with an average of 27 miles, and that 85% would consider fuel efficiency as an important factor in choosing their next vehicle.
Source (GreenCarCongress)
This entry was posted on Thursday, September 10th, 2009 at 6:21 am and is filed under Public Opinion, Research. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:22 am)They did ask me.
From the article:
The study also showed most buyers were willing to pay a premium for such a car. 49% said they would pay a 5 to 10% premium over a comparable gas car and 17% were willing to pay between 20% and 50% more. One-third said they would not pay a premium. The average premium people were willing to pay was 12%.
——
Here lies the cost issue. 1/3 won’t pay a premium and the average premium is 12%.
If people want a small fuel economy car, do they pay $32,500 for it. I think the answer is no. Most of these hybrids are not cheap yet. Thank goodness we have the early adopters to help drive the costs down. Competition will do the same thing as many of these car makers will have EVs or EREVs on the streets in a few year. Good luck to all of them.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:23 am)All because of you Lyle.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:26 am)They did ask me, either.
I’d look for those numbers to change significantly by 2012, when the Volt has been in production long enough for word-of-mouth to get around.
And in the meantime, I’ve no doubt that GM will sell every Volt that it makes,so I’m not worried about the low percentage of respondents willing to pay the premium that owners will fork over for the first generation Volt.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:29 am)Sorry. They didn’t ask me. Darn typo.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:31 am)From the article:
This was assuming electricity cost was 75 cents per gallon equivalent.
Really, 75¢ a gallon equivalent?
I had no idea it was that much. I was thinking it was
around 10¢. Of course it will vary depending on where you live and how you get your electricity.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:36 am)Asking about a “plug-in hybrid” isn’t the same as asking about an “extended range electric vehicle”. The extremely interested 22% may break down to being just 5% that are interested in the Volt or the high end Tesla.
The 52% who currently represent the “not interested” reveal the high water mark. From here on out, this number should drop several percentage points per year. In 2015, it’s very possible that 1 of every 3 car shoppers will test drive an electric before buying.
=D~
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:40 am)An excellent survey.. very surprising numbers, its understandable that people do not want to pay a premium.. but that may change suddenly if gasoline gets hard to find and expensive.
12% is a workable premium, after all a BEV will be a much simpler car, no ICE, transmission or associated components.
I wish they had asked about different battery packs, lets say a 10, 20, 40, 60 mile range and so on.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:41 am)$0.10/kwh is rough US average. In the case of the Volt, assuming their 50mpg goal, this is about 11kwh from the wall. So, it is more like $1.10 in electricity per gallon, but in comparison to a similar ICE car that averages 30mpg it is about 7kwh ($0.70).
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:41 am)As I said before I would have bought the Volt Concept as soon as it was available, but now I will be more incline to buy Fisker Karma at twice the price for better performance and those great lines. Does GM not understand why people who can afford a business jet will buy a Gulfstream with less interior space before they will buy a 737 for less money and twice the space or why people will buy a two door before they will buy a four door car? GM’s marketing needs to get some real people who understand people and how and why they will spend their money!
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:42 am)It didn’t say 52% is not interested, it says 42% are “very or extremely” interested. There’s also those who are “somewhat interested” according to the pie chart in the source link.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:44 am)I missed that.
I equate a Plugin with an EREV. But they are not the same.
I would have answered “not interested” had I thought about it.
I can’t find the original question that was asked, but if someone asked me if I wanted to purchase a plugin vehicle with a 40 mile range, I would say no.
If someone asked me if I wanted to purchase a plugin vehicle with a 40 mile range and a 300 mile range extender, I would say yes.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:47 am)No its a good number.. compare a car that gets 30 mpg on gasoline.. it consumes 1 gallon to go 30 miles.. a typical BEV will consume 0.250 kwh per mile, thus a total of $0.8 if electricity is $0.11 per kwh.. its in the ballpark.
The extreme case would be if you had a solar porch to charge the BEV, your other car was an SUV and gas was not available except on the black market and at high prices.. You would see a lot of electric bicycles then.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:47 am)Seems kind of typical, doesn’t it?
The American consumer wants the high end technology, but only if they can have it at the Wallmart price, and only if it has no inconvenience to them…..
Straight BEV’s are going to have a problem for a while, especially if the “news” shows some stories of people being stranded on the road with empty battery packs.
The Volt idea still works for me!
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Sep 10th, 2009 (6:56 am)I am sure there are people willing the pay the cost of a small house for a car.. how many do you think there are and how many Karmas will be sold?
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Sep 10th, 2009 (7:06 am)The “little world of GM-Volt.com” is not so little
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Sep 10th, 2009 (7:10 am)These numbers will only improve as time goes by. Most people are barely familiar with these newly developing cars and I do not think they really understand all the details of these various classes of cars that are coming on line. I am not at all surprised at the numbers shown. Clearly short term gasoline prices and availability will have a great influence on the rate electrification is adopted.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (7:18 am)Haley.. I understand your comment. Most of the “somewhat interested” and even the “very interested” will not buy a first year electric car. I consider myself “extremely interested” and may wait a year or two. Just being honest.
=D~
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Sep 10th, 2009 (7:36 am)I’m sure hoping that by 2012 the prices start coming down because thats as long as I think I can keep my current car going. And I am fairly confient oil prices will be far north of $100 a barrel by then, likely around $200.
Soap box time:
The prices of gas works both ways in the equation. Higher gas prices will make it easier to get electric cars.
The higher gas prices are the more a premium you would pay to drive electric. The higher gas prices are the more demand for electric cars which will drive prices for the cars down not up. This is because every car company is already competing in EVs. The impediments to prices dropping are battery improvements and selling enough cars themselves to drive down the production costs. Once they are selling millions of these a year, and industries pop up to recycle the batteries (buy the old ones), and economies of scale and all the other improvements that will come, the battery prices will fall and so will the prices of the cars.
How about we give people what they want. People want big cars and cheap energy. 95% of the people love the freedom of driving where every they want when ever they want. Maybe 5% or less of the people prefer to walk or ride bikes every where they want. There is nothing wrong with personal choice.
If someone wants to ride a bike 20 miles in a loop from their house that is fine. It is also fine if a family puts 4 bikes on their SUV, drives 40 miles round trip to do a 5 mile loop.
The point is lets spend the next 20 years building Solar, Wind, Geothermal, Hydro and Nuclear power generation so that after it is all built we don’t need any fuel for the next 2 billion years. Just maintain what we have so we can have cheap energy to power our Suburbans and Tahoes that have 100 KWH batteries. We can quickly learn to build large capacity cheap batteries that we can recylce. Or maybe Large capacity ultra capaciters or a combination.
Lets just assume that the technology will eventually end up with what people want, so lets go with the flow instead of against it.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (7:39 am)FME III –> Agreed that the first 10K will be easily sold to people who want an interesting and novel car. After that, I am really uncertain. That’s because there is so much emotion and identity tied to car purchases.
For the Volt I’m not sure who is going to be speaking logically but feeling “I’ve really got to have this one.” That’s in contrast to present-day Cameros (gotta go “room-ROOM”) and present-day Cobalts (gotta have a reliable car, cheap). Maybe they are out there, but my imagination is having a hard time bringing them up.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (7:41 am)As more education regarding Voltec continues, the World increasingly understands the extreme value of this engineering.
This is why I have been saying that far more production facilities ought to be in the planning stages immediately.
The only bad thing about the reorganization, is that excessive normally-resulting conservatism has impeded considerations for more rapid expansion of Voltec production facilities, in this extremely-unusual case where research investment yielded exceptional breakthroughs for electric propulsion.
All this hoopla about “government motors” is exactly the sort of thing that slows the needed **private** investment to greatly expand Voltec production facilities. And, as more people read each day for the next 14 months how extremely far ahead of everyone else GM is, even the most misled radio listeners will more likely accept that the best thing that ever happened here were the exact situations that have in fact occurred via federal requirement influences to have Voltec brought about. (Including the 10 year/150,000 mile battery warranty!!!)
Imagined-lower Voltec costs exclusive of that one-time warranty battery replacement included-cost would be an extremely BAD thing, because you can never again have the advantage of wholesale-cost economies of scale (and people that know what they are doing!!!). And, the replacement responsibility is a standardized responsibility of GM customer satisfaction and performance.
It is not going to be efficient, workable, **or motivational** to improve battery performance any other way. We are not changing out a 12 volt battery here!! The difference is as much as comparing a tricycle to a motorcycle.
It is time for some more boldness to somehow offer GM (et al) management more ways, methods, and opportunities to greatly expand E-REV production facilities.
Talents investiture is clearly indicated with the above findings.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (7:44 am)LazP –> You’re right that most people have only a fuzzy and fizzy idea of what electric cars are or how they might look or be used. As they fill in those details in understanding, what is going to get them excited? It has to be more than passing interest, if it involves thousands of additional dollars. With the Prius it is green-snob appeal coupled to a car that is actually pretty good. Will that be it for the Volt, or can it reach a broader market?
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Sep 10th, 2009 (7:45 am)What do they mean by “premium price”. The maintenance costs on the Volt will be extremely low in relation to say a diesel powered vehicle. After 400,000 miles you will have to change the wheel bearings and the brake linnings. Electric motors can last 100 years with no maintenance at all.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (7:54 am)“29% disliked the idea of plugging in and thought it would be expensive, 28% thought the cars would be unreliable, and 25% felt the cars would be of lower quality.”
actually i thought some of the results indicated a great deal of people have no idea what benefits come from an electric car – more expensive to run (it will be cheaper by a long shot), unreliable (despite less moving parts), low quality (still made by the same people, so it would at least be comparable).
Also, it would be interesting to know where the survey was conducted, this can influence results substantially.
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+3
Sep 10th, 2009 (7:57 am)Yes, when the Chevy Volt and Fisker Karma are seen on the open road far from home, while the BEV’s are tethered to their chargers in the urban and suburban areas, people will get the point that these vehicles can be used like a normal automobile.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:06 am)For my driving pattern it would have to be compared to a poor city mileage ICE car. If replaced with a EREV or BEV it would be like gasoline dropping to $0.31 per gallon. Or put another way, $4.50 of electricity compared to the $40.00 worth of gasoline I use to fill my tank.
Sure I could buy a cheaper gasoline car with way better CITY mileage, but there is something about sticking it to the petro-funded Dictators that I like.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:08 am)Is no one talking about the MPG rating of the Volt in the ICE mode? This mode is very important to me as I do a lot of long distance driving. I would love to get 50 MPG in the ICE mode as originally advertised. Is GM backing down from this number? If GM went to a diesel motor/gen set, could they “up” the ICE mode MPG rating? Frankly, I would loose a lot of interest if the true ICE mode MPG rating were in the low 40’s.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:09 am)I think all the car companies are moving slowly, waiting for the Peak-Oil shoe to drop. Then they’ll go 100% the EV road. The point is they don’t want to stick their necks out and assume Oil will be $200 a barrel in 2012 ,because what if it is only $95 in 2012, and doesn’t hit $200 until 2018. They don’t know if the huge EV demand will be here in 3 years or 10 years.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:30 am)You can git any result you in wants by the way you done structure yer questions ? Why they not ask if they willy to pay greater than $40,000 on such hybrid.
Even Granny don’t believe such results stew pot ready.
Better hunker down and build that Volt right. If electric contraption run good buyer show up with cash. Jed Out.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:32 am)only 30% with negative views is amazing at this early stage.. apparently the public is ready for electric cars.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:34 am)Dan
I think you believe in the Voltec as much as I do. I believe EVERY major car company is going as fast as they can to have something to compete with the Volt as soon as they can before being swept away by the wake trailing Volt sales.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:34 am)(click to show comment)
Sep 10th, 2009 (8:36 am)You forgot the windshield wipers will need replacing also. It would be neat if GM set up the Volt to never need an oil change or tune up.. dont dismiss it out of hand, it can be done..
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:40 am)The whole point of the Volt is the 40 miles all electric sweet spot.. you may be better served by a hybrid with a direct connection of the ICE to the wheels.. such as a plug-in Prius or BYD F6DM.
GM could go to heroic measures to get above 50mpg in charge sustaining mode but it may add several thousands to the cost.. probably no payback at all.
No diesel please.. I want simplicity.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:42 am)Most people don’t have enuff xperiance to make an informed decision on electrics. Once they actually have to depend on one they will quickly realize that 40 mile range ain’t gonna cut it no way no how and those numbas will drop faster than Obama’s popularity. woot.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:45 am)They could easily package an attractively priced maintenance plan, and either build it into the sales price or offer it as an option. We recently bought a similar plan for my wife’s new vehicle, because it made sense when we looked at the numbers. In fact, GM might be silly to NOT do this, since it would allow them an opportunity to get more data about how the car is performing in the real world.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:46 am)That is a huge ICE something like 1.4 liters of metal thrashing for a maximum of 42 MPG with direct injection, atkinscycling and coasting down hill with a tail wind. woot.
You may now begin losing interest.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:48 am)I hope the survey stated that the Volt could be used for long trips without worry of the battery running out and still get great gas mileage. I for one would not buy a pure electric. Those who buy pure electrics better stick close to an outlet, but I’m sure you’ll see some stranded along the road. You know how that goes.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:50 am)I totally agree with you, Russ
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:50 am)I have several alternators, generators and starters in the garage that would strongly disagree with that statement.
No long term real world tests have proven the those electric brushless motors would last. Americans don’t treat their cars too kindly and Bubba will surely beat on those A/C motors like nobodies bizness.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (8:52 am)Even bearings can last almost forever.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:00 am)You will be required to take your Volt in for periodic ICE maintenance and Firmware Updates and OnStar Grid feedback adjustments. This is not your fathers Olds, GM must keep owners on a leash else troubles will escalate exponentially. For GM dealers this car will require a big change in the way they operate therefore only select dealerships who have advanced training and sophisticated diagnostic consoles to t-shoot Volt will be allowed to even sell this puppy.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:03 am)“Crack?” “buttocks?” You’ve been reported.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:04 am)Right Jason,
I share your opinion,
JC NPNS
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:05 am)Those 22 percenters must have been made up of Volt tards that frequent this site. The vast majority of people don’t know about Volt, Tesla or Any Electric cars. They actually have little or no interest at all. These numbers looks skewed as hell. Not buying the koolaid today my friends.
- Thug
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+2
Sep 10th, 2009 (9:06 am)Why are you examining your uncles buttocks?
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:09 am)It may be true ultimately that people want big electrics and hybrids, but in the nearer term that thinking lead to the Toyota Hybrid Highlander, and GM’s full-size hybrid SUVs; none of which were sales successes.
I’m all for rewarding the behavior you want; in this case, I think big electrics should be the reward for creating that power grid you described.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:09 am)Herm.
many dealers (in my area) are offering 3 years routine maintenance with lease / sale..all fluid changes and tire rotations. wear and tear items not covered of course.
So if I buy a new Chev Equinox, I just show up and they do the maintenance and I drive away..NC.
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-1
Sep 10th, 2009 (9:15 am)….um, batteries.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:15 am)Are you talking about BEV-s or the Volt? Or you do not know the difference?
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:17 am)The first couple years they will only sell a few hundred thousdand volts, it doesn’t have to be for everybody. Just people who pretty much drive 30-40 miles every day and can plug into their garage and have a second car for long trips.
Hopefully in 2012 they’ll have a new 2013 model with much lower price. 40 mile range will be fine if work places set up charging stations for the trip home. Then the car will appeal to just about everyone. Especially with gas at $5 a gallon or more.
I’m hoping in 2012 for a 40 mile EREV SUV anyways. I’ll plug it in at work and get around 20,000 AER a year. That will save me around 4-6K a year at what I expect to be minimum gas prices. By 2017 when the vehicle is 5 years old, I’ll be driving anywhere I want without thinking twice about the price of gas being $10 a gallon.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:21 am)Troll
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:23 am)Russ,
There has been LOTS of talk about the economy in CS mode.
Although I would really like that information I understand why GM is playing that card close to the vest.
14 Months to go.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:23 am)Damn. Your imagination is running wild. $10 gas is totally off the hook. Can i get some of the stuff you are drinking or smoking. That must be some good sh#%.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:25 am)So, here in JAX where the nighttime/off peak rate is $0.048/kWh, in comparison to a similar ICE car that averages 30mpg it is about 7kwh ($0.34), or for my commute, a grand total of less than $0.60, but since my company provides the plug for free for the daily charge/fill up, around a quarter for a round trip!!! Okay, sign me up!
Zel
And Remember GM:
Jacksonville Fl, 54 mile commute round trip, 110v 20a plug at work to recharge and designated parking spot. Just saying I will volunteer. Really.
Plugging for a Plug-In!
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:28 am)I admit it is impossible to predict future gas prices with any accuracy. You have to account for inflation, taxes, hurricanes in the gulf, wars and instability in the middle east. There are to many unpredicable variables.
What is for sure is the cost of getting it out of the ground is rising rapidly enough that $4 gas as a floor is pretty much guaranteed by 2012. What is hardest to predict is world wide demand outstripping supply and the resulting shortages driving the prices up. But that isn’t a matter of if but a matter of when.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:33 am)Honestly, I’d LOVE to have a Tahoe Hybrid!
BUT, the $$$ point is way to high for this buckaroo.
I truly think all GM has to do is build a ‘work truck’ version of the hybrid trucks at around $25k usd and they will not be able to make enough of them.
The simple truth is that it’s MUCH cheaper for me to drive my ‘paid for’ truck and just close my eyes and hand over the credit card to the gas station attendant.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:37 am)Tommy, Tommy did your mommy forget to give you all your meds today ?
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:38 am)LazP, ignore ‘Studley’ it’s just the under bridge dweller being all it will ever be.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:39 am)yes, it’s obvious from the results that (like I’ve been saying all along) GM has to educate people. Such statements as:
29% disliked the idea of plugging in and thought it would be expensive
Expensive to plug in and operate or more expensive than a gasoline powered car? If the former then that’s an education issue, if the latter, then that’s true until mass production brings the cost down.
28% thought the cars would be unreliable
Unreliable in opearation or are they thinking that this is a BEV and will be unreliable to get them to where they need to go? With the Volt, again this is an education issue.
and 25% felt the cars would be of lower quality.
They must have seen the first and second gen Prius :^o
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:42 am)Gas is already over $8 usd gal in Europe and $5 usd gal in Canada.
Who is smoking the good sh#% troll?
Why I think it’s YOU!
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:48 am)i am EXTREMELY interested in a 40 mile PHEV. the problem is exactly what this blog is showing, i just can’t pay $40k up front with a tax return to follow later. the numbers MUST be derived from current spending habits that show $20k – $25k is the norm for cars. i don’t own a prius, but this is where that car sits and thus is where our beloved volt should sit. it would assuredly be the hugest automotive hit of all time if the volt cost were $25k….GUARENTEED!!!
the wallet doesn’t have a fudge factor for the masses, they can afford X per month and so they buy a vehicle that fits X. which vehicles can then fit X amount are what they then factor which one they like the most. this is the same principle as house buying. which ones are available and have the style one likes from X amount of money.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:48 am)Divorced already?
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:48 am)If GM included maintenance (ala BMW) in the Volt price it would be over $50K and scare even more people away.
Remember the Volt will have many more parts than your typical gas car today. It has hundreds of battery cells, thousands of connectors, more wires and connectors, fuses, etc than you can imagine and all this in addition to what a normal gas car has. The end result is that maintenance costs on the Volt will be staggering (actually frightening or mind boggling may be a better description).
The Volt will be what Mr. Goodwrench has dreamed about his entire career. It will make his SECOND career.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:49 am)Am I expected to believe in another poll that headlines 48% of US Consumers. I do not at all believe that a 1,041 respondents is an indicator of US Consumers that is interested in the Volt let alone, buy one.
GM should not get themselves into the old trap of making up such things as this which is somewhat like the high estimated Miles Per Gallon fiqure that they tried feeding the public. GM needs to stay perfectly honest.
The NEW GM needs to adopt an approach to making A market for VOLTEC and get some copies of the Chevy Volt on the street and the hell with the Internet Winnies. Let the public see it NOW!
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:51 am)I’m wondering where on the web the respondents were found. Was it multiple sites or a single site? I’m wondering if that affected the replies. If it was at a “green site”, I’d guess that it should be read differently than if it was on a petroleum web site. As always, just curious.
I DO think that as “old man” said, every car company is scrambling to field something to compete with the Volt, so that in itself would indicate that they (and their research people) think that there are a lot of potentially interested people out there.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 10th, 2009 (9:52 am)Largest segment on the pie chart: “somewhat interested somewhat disinterested” (or if I may paraphrase, “meh”), 34%. Second-largest segment, “very interested,” 26%.
I cannot help but wonder what those segments would look like at 50 miles, 60 miles (or for that matter, 20 miles or 30 miles) of electric range.
Sooner or later, I think GM is going to have to question it’s “40 mile” sweet spot, and enlarge it. I vote for sooner.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:03 am)I had a shot at a truck at a great price during the height of the ‘carpocalypse,’ and even though I actually need one rarely, I was tempted. I couldn’t have justified another vehicle, though; so it would have been my daily driver. I would’ve hated it at the gas station.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:04 am)I expect that my company will be highly motivated to install charging stations because I fully expect the government to offer carbon credits or royalty reductions to any company that does so. Given my daily commute and assuming conservative charging times, I fully plan on charging my battery primarily at work on their tab. Any residual charging, if required. I would do at home. This totally gives me all of the savings that I would need to justify paying a “premium” over ICE cars.
We should all keep in mind that there will be a significant “conversion” process to move from fossil fuels. Initial steps will be the least profitable and the benefits will be marginal. Once things gain momentum, all parameters will improve.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:04 am)It DOES seem there is a growing intrest without a doubt.
Your point of offering different battery sizes in a survey at this point is just too soon though. It ‘muddies’ the waters and confuses the potential customers.
As it is there is going to be a LOT of ‘public’ education required so that people understand how an EREV works. That has to come first.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:04 am)The BIG EVs can’t be justified until gas gets to $4, $5 a gallon and upwards, then the fuel savings pile up much faster on the larger vehicles for obvious reasons. We still have a couple years to go unless some instability in the middle east or something speeds up the process. But I’d buy one now if it were available for simple logic. I’m buying the vehicle for 10 years. So if my net fuel savings are only $1-2,000 the first year or two, I know when the unprecedented energy shocks come, I’ll be sitting pretty.
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+2
Sep 10th, 2009 (10:05 am)I’m surprised, no make that shocked, that 100% of the respondents knew what a plug in hybrid with a 40 mile range is. In my experience most people wouldn’t know what that would be.
At this point the responses are probably determined by the wording of the question. You could goose the positive responses by asking something like: “Would you be interested in purchasing an electric car that would use inexpensive electricity to get 230 MPG in city driving?”
The reality is that people want everything. They want a car that gets 230 MPG and they want a vehicle that weighs 2 tons and can carry one quarter of their house around and they want it to be inexpensive.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:06 am)Right on the money.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:10 am)Heh heh… it happens!
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:11 am)Should they spend gazillions now for a car which officially won’t exceed a 250,000 unit volume in 3 years, or invest in the deployment of HCCI which can theoretically revolutionize many more vehicles at a lower cost?
I’m not bashing Voltec by any stretch, just suggesting that the current commitment may be appropriate for it’s status as a brand new kind of car.
I think I would wait until closer to breakeven on GM’s cost to produce before committing “to greatly expand E-REV production facilities,” even though I’m hot for the Voltec future to happen. It won’t happen if the new GM can’t make it past the next 4 years.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:12 am)I would assume the 22% translates into being able to sell up to 22% of the cars sold as Plug-in Priuses, Volts, Karma Fiskers, and other PHEV’s. So tell me again why only 10,000 Volts in the first year? 22% of 9 million units is a market for 2 million PHEV’s. It would seem 100,000 Volts could be sold, at $32,500.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:16 am)now I will be more incline to buy Fisker Karma at twice the price for better performance and those great lines
Depends on your poser quotient, among other things. While it’s true that the Karma is a nice looking car, it’s also true that it’s not nearly as efficient and it’s likely to be less reliable and far more expensive to maintain. The reality is that the Volt will have the coolest technology and, while it will be premium priced, it’s not going to be $90K, which puts it in the “Unobtainable” category for the vast majority of people. Plus driving a Chevy with cool tech has a certain amount of reverse chic appeal.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:17 am)Jackson, you are not wrong.
But lets let them get the Volts wheels on the road first.
(To paraphase Tag…)
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:20 am)At the expected Gen 1 $40k price point Jay has a point.
A $25k Gen 2 car would turn that on it’s ear though.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:20 am)Van 22 .. we don’t have enough information to deal with this issue now. What is the sticker price? Is the $7500 a tax credit or an instant rebate? What mpg is expected after the initial 40 miles (battery)? Can parts suppliers keep up with a high rate of production? Will the battery be leased or included in the sale? Does NGMCO have the money to fully fund a quick release?
And as a few have already stated here. Isn’t it better to have a small controlled release rather than a blow out with possible recall repercussions?
The longer NGMCO delays the more the competition grows. Where is the Cruze?
=D~
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:21 am)As more education regarding Voltec continues, the World increasingly understands the extreme value of this engineering.
In this regard, nothing would focus minds like $5/gallon gas.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:22 am)The problem is, the study showed most people would accept a 5%-10% premium. But the Volt is about a 60% premium over a similar $25k car.
I would guess the percentage who are willing an able to put up that kind of premium is very very low.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:23 am)Great point. Also, with so much new tech, it’s likely there will be some failures. For example, with the EV-1 the biggest initial problem was with the tires.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:24 am)Totally understood.
My truck does ‘truck stuff’ I drive an older Malibu as my commuter.
I have the luxury of having the ‘truck’ as the ‘third’ car.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:25 am)People in the “extremely interested” category of the survey are either early adopters (for whatever reason), or are using the same farsighted thinking concerning what could happen to the price of gas over the vehicle’s expected lifetime.
I’ve even wondered if one might buy a Volt with gas prices low, and intentionally use the range extender more than one might ordinarily like, in order to get more battery life later; when it could be crucial.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:29 am)I am extremely interested in a Volt but I think my chances of being able to purchase one in 2010 or 2011 for $32,500 is very low. I might end up settling for a Fusion Hybrid next year. Eventually I see my wife and I owning 1 EREV and 1 EV.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:29 am)Don’tcha just hate it when a troll jumps in on you, and makes it look like you’re responding to him?
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+1
Sep 10th, 2009 (10:30 am)PeteVE;
Well I think we all need to learn a new math.
Let say you buy your car for $22,000 and take out a second loan for 10 years at 7% and a monthly payment of $255.44 (not recommending you do this, just trying to do apples to apples).
And I go out and buy a vold for $33,000 after tax credits and I take out a second loan mortgage for 10 years at 7% and my monthly payment is $383.16.
However over those 10 years the average gas price is $4 a gallon more than the cost I pay in electricity for the 50 miles (usually more) I drive every day electrically because I charge at work and at home between trips on the weekend. So you get 50 MPG with your Prius but I save $130 on energy costs and now (383.16 – 130 = 233.16) I am saving over $20 a month on my transportation costs versus your prius.
Plus I’ll not have to pay for oil changes or buy a foreign car. I’ll know I’m helping my country by not burning fossil fuels, and my energy dollars will go to Americans Utility companies instead of funding terrorists that kill american citizens and soliders.
Plus I am 100% certain that over 10 years from 2012 – 2022 the net savings per gallon will be WAY over $4 A GALLON.
Only problem is I’d rather have a SUV than a volt, but I’ll take what I can get.
My Mom just gave me my meds, so I’ll feel better soon.
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+1
Sep 10th, 2009 (10:32 am)That’s the great thing about ‘possum innards. They’re just as good the second day.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:34 am)All we can do is … wait.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:35 am)Agreed.
There is always the possibility of over-delivery (also somewhat Tag-like).
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:35 am)You’re absolutely right and GM certainly understand this. But new tech doesn’t come cheap. The choice was to introduce the Volt at a lower price later or at a higher price sooner. GM made the right choice IMHO by opting for the earlier, albeit, more expensive, release.
Gen II will lower the price and there will probably still be at least some form of rebate available. Remember that less than ten years ago the first digital SLRs without a lens cost over $5K for a sensor with a couple of megapixels. Now you can get one with a lens and a sensor with over 10 megapixels for under $500. The drop in prices for the entire car won’t be that dramatic, but we should see fairly quick price reductions for many components.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:35 am)I am sure the Nissan LEAF will be ready for you and your wife early 2010. Hold on a little longer and you won’t be disappointed. Oh, and you won’t need more than $20K for this great American made pure electric. We look forward to serving all your needs efficiently and affordably. See you next Spring and have a nice Fall and winter.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:37 am)Muddy Rover Bob:
Yeah, no kidding. Nobody’s perfect, least of all me, alas.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:40 am)I could go for that if there were also a green credit or other incentive for companies (or individuals) to install solar collectors. Here’s why:
If, in a few years, most drivers charge at work, it will put much more of a strain on the grid than night (’off peak’) charging would. Solar arrays would bolster the grid, precisely during on-peak-demand charging. The solar arrays need not be installed at the place where the charging is being done, though this would be a plus.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:41 am)Good report Lyle. Even when willing to pay a 12% premium I wonder from what cost are those people thinking. Maybe 12% over a car that would normally cost them around $22,000? If so, that means they are willing to pay only $24,640 for a vehicle like the Volt. That is a long way from the Volt’s expected cost of $32,500 after federal tax rebate. Looks like most of these people will be waiting until 2015 or later to purchase a Volt unless game changing fuel cost comes into play.
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+1
Sep 10th, 2009 (10:44 am)Jackson:
I guess we’re going to have to go back to addressing our comments. It’s handy to just drop in a reply, but after 2 or 3 (or more) other comments get in between, it is really difficlult to follow who is responding to whom.
Having said that, they are pretty active this AM aren’t they? Warming up for the next big push of astroturfing on health car, IMHO.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:47 am)This is the best news I have seen here in some time. Given even the most optimistic projections of Volt production I have seen, it looks like the niche will be more than big enough to absorb all of them and more.
LJGTVWOTR!! Time’s a wastin’.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:48 am)“In this regard, nothing would focus minds like $5/gallon gas”
… except maybe sitting in lines for hours to get $5/gallon gas.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:52 am)A teaser is out on the plug in prius:
“The battery allows strong, seamless acceleration up to a maximum 62mph (100km/h) in EV mode. On a full charge, it can cover approximately 12.5miles (20km) in EV mode”
——————–
If this is in the EU cycle mentioned, then real world AER will likely be closer to 9 miles. Battery size has not been released.
To me, the real point of interest will be how much effort Toyota put into “blended mode” programming and what will the blended mpg results be on daily 40 mile cycles (100 mpg +?).
Also of interest, the price (of course). One would think that with a 6ish kwh battery this car could come in under $30k once the “shine” wears off (not incl. any rebates).
Frankfurt Preview: More on Toyota’s new lithium-ion Plug-in Prius
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/10/frankfurt-preview-more-on-toyotas-new-lithium-ion-plug-in-priu/
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:54 am)“Oh, and you won’t need more than $20K for this great American made pure electric”
… unless you want a battery to go with that fine Nissan automobile.
Also, the Volt is not a pure electric; that would make it less usable.
Thank you, CarlosG for helpfully illustrating the kind of deliberate misinformation and outright falsehood that the great unwashed public is going to have to wade through over the next decade.
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+1
Sep 10th, 2009 (10:58 am)“Electric motors can last 100 years with no maintenance at all.”
WTF? Show me an electric motor that has been used regularly for 100years. Or even 75years. The Volt has BOTH an ICE and Electric Motor. Now you have to deal with two items to maintain. But wait, there’s more…..
You have the battery pack which requires monitoring too and will most likely need to be “Polled” for data on ocasion by the tech at your local dealer to see if anything has gone wrong or is within failure threshold.
This is not less maintenance, it’s MORE.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (10:59 am)Or as Jeff Rubin has predicted $7/g
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+1
Sep 10th, 2009 (11:01 am)they really cant get any worse..
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:03 am)“I admit it is impossible to predict future gas prices with any accuracy. You have to account for inflation, taxes, hurricanes in the gulf, wars and instability in the middle east. There are to many unpredicable variables.”
can you imagine trying to run a business that uses a lot of fuel?.. deliveries, airplanes etc.. it must be hard on your nerves.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:06 am)we hope it was an honest and professional survey.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:07 am)Yes Jackson I do hate that!
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:07 am)I just got my Apple-Certified Solar Charger for my iPhone 3Gs. So my question is where is the GM-Certified Solar Charger for the Volt ?
Don’t tell me it can’t be done. For 2 hours of daylight i am getting 30 minutes of 3G talk time on my IPhone. Seriously it can be done GM.
Well I’m still waiting. It’s time for GM and the Volt to go Green.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:09 am)you realize charging at work for free would be taxable income?
I think a good business model is for utility companies to provide the chargers and power for FREE, as long as they can use a minuscule portion of your battery for grid stabilization.. just make sure all those cars are charged up before the afternoon peak demand.
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+1
Sep 10th, 2009 (11:14 am)HErm
I’m definitely not questioning the honesty of the survey. I’m just questioning the sampling procedures. Some pollsters do it very well, some, eh, not so much. It does bear on the results.
Major IQ tests use just a few thousand people, but it’s a stratified random sample that reflects the general population of the US. This one may be closer to those described as “unscientific” or NOT.
I’m definitely hoping it’s been well done. We just don’t know.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:15 am)from $32k to $25k is a 28% premium..
Why not compare the Volt to a BMW or Mercedes of similar size?, after all the Volt will have a luxurious level of comfort, rarity and performance “feel”.. and use much less gas, many fewer trips to the gas station so more convenience also.
Dont forget, the chicks with the hairy legs will be all over you.. so it is a chick magnet also. Just make sure it is nice and soft hairy legs
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:17 am)Excellent news! I’m willing to consider one on that basis given my usage patterns. If only they can make it less ugly.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:19 am)DonC,
I suspect some percentage did not know what it was, but responded out of “reflex” either yes or no. People do have habits of answering questions about things they know nothing about especially when it only requires a yes, no or maybe answer. It was an interesting survey although it is much too soon to expect opinions to be formed around any kind of decision one way of the other.
As you indicated, a person usually responds based on how the question is framed or worded.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:23 am)Still trying to “bait” GM, I see. Well, good luck. I would think you are in a good location to be close enough to a city where some of the first 10,000 will be sold. I would expect Florida to get a small supply. If so, go get you one.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:25 am)There probably was some education before the survey started, things like what a BEV and EREV are and so on.. just this little bit of education is enough to make some people fall asleep so it probably weeded out some of the non-techies.
Surveys are very far from perfect.
http://www.marketresearch.com/vendors/viewvendor.asp?vendorid=3710&g=1
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:26 am)It should relate to around $.03 to $.05 per mile. $75 per gallon for a vehicle normally getting 25 MPG is the same as $.03 per mile electric cost.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:29 am)The evolution of the prius/ electric cars is starting to feel like that of computers/cell phones to me already.
The “blended mode” programming — which I would consider a key feature of the plug in prius — Toyota appears to not be offering at this time. Kind of like when the first iphone came out and you knew gps would be an awesome feature (and it’s inclusion was rumored) but apple held back on it till the v2.
I suppose that’s the way it will go. At least 9 mi aer would get me to town and back inbetween convenience charges.
/ at least gen iii is a little less ugly then gen ii (imo)
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:30 am)Looks like MB is joining the scrum.
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/09/10/s500_hybrid_merc/
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+2
Sep 10th, 2009 (11:30 am)Yeah, by now we all want to “stick it to the petro-funded Dictators”. That certainly ranks very high on my list of why I want to purchase a Volt like vehicle or a BEV. I say stick it to them until it hurts all the way down to their balls. Ladies, please excuse my terminology but I could not think of a better word to say it with.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:32 am)Polls like this don’t tell me anything. Just get the Volt out already. That will give you the data you require. Many can say their interested and say they’d buy but how many will is the true question. The answer will only be available once the car is available. Personally I think they should flood the Market with it. 10,000 for the first year just sucks a$$ for a BIG, ok not so big anymore, company. I think this small number is a mrketing ploy to get the best bang for the buck. Supply and Demand as Mr. DonC would put it.
Just get the Volt damnit! so the gen3 can get out so I can afford it….lol
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:32 am)This survey must have been taken in Podunk. It does not represent the opinions in America’s Hearland, that is for sure. And just for the record I don’t live in Podunk.
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+2
Sep 10th, 2009 (11:34 am)Jay has a very valid point if you can afford to pay the money for a Fisker Karma. It is certainly much better looking than the Volt. And who is to say that the gen 2 Fisker Karma will not be much cheaper than the current $80,000. Same economies of scale will apply, just on a smaller scale because Fisker will not sell the volume as GM. At least I don’t think they will.
I really don’t understand Jay getting negative votes for his comment. It was not a negative comment about the Volt. Come on people, be fair.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:37 am)DonC,
What you say is correct, but Jay still has a valid point. Plus, we don’t know the Karma will not be chocked full of technology and not be reliable. It may be just as reliable as the Volt or the Tesla Roadster. Let’s hope for the best for both vehicles because we need them to be successful and bring their cost down a lot.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:40 am)Yes, Jim I. That formula worked well for Walmart, but it drove a lot of manufacturing jobs to countries like China. The same thinking will probably drive the Volts of the future to be made in China as well. I understand the 4 cylinder engine for the 2010 Chevy Equinox is made in China. So, what’s next? Sad for our country that we demand the lowest price over domestic production.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:41 am)“….the Vision S500 returns an average of 88mpg”
___________
That’s not bad on a 10kwh battery and a car that likely will curb out at over 4500 lb.
/ Probably on 30ish mile cycle with a full charge (?).
// The Frankfurt auto show next week should be quite interesting. (Renault’s now bringing 4 EV’s)
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:42 am)There are some large motors used to haul ships out of the water in S Florida, close to 100 year old I believe.. probably have been rebuilt many times.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:43 am)You guys are just plumb full of quotes (g), and it’s an honor to be quoted.
Thanks,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:48 am)You are right Captain, but lets be honest about how ‘much’ that really is…
For example;
Our Subaru has just over 220000 km on it.
It’s getting a new wheel bearing as we ’speak’.
And it needs a set of tires before winter.
I put some new spark plug wires into it last year.
It will need a replacement exhaust next year.
3-5 oil changes a year (depending on the driving that happens that year. It has an aftermarket washable air filter in it that I service once or twice a year. (K&N)
That’s about it.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:50 am)A Tritch!
Troll + B|tch.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:51 am)Nicely illustrated!
A similar comparision (although less dramatic) can be made with diesel power.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (11:59 am)Agreed here too. My main reason for wanting to support the Volt and EV’s of any type is energy independence.
As it has been said before, we fund both sides of the war against Islamo fascism.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:00 pm)Another reason why electric vehicles will be taking over a lot sooner than people realize.
The Post office has already determined they can replace 150,000 of those little trucks they use. They ran studies and 99% of them go less than 40 miles a day, 80% go less than 28 miles a day.
Perfect application for electric cars, which will result in predicable expenses over time. They can plug them in easier than taking them to the gas station or having their own fuel complex.
But of course they’ll have to wait a couple years till the prices come down to start replacing their fleet.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:10 pm)West Coast posting here ends up being buried past the 100th post – anyways we slog on. This Pike PHEV poll indicates an X% chance there’s a significant market for EV’s. Nothing more! No one’s ever driven a VOLT. No one has any idea if the car meets expectations – or even what those expectations are – or what the economic climate will be at intro. Its been a very long time since a new US model created awe that brings oohs and ahhs. That’s the mission for VOLT. Should VOLT even roughly match Fisker’s range potential – and that can only happen if it makes its ER ICE comparable – that’ll do the trick.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:10 pm)The price of batteries and motors might be going way up according to this articale.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/6082464/World-faces-hi-tech-crunch-as-China-eyes-ban-on-rare-metal-exports.html
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:17 pm)I can live with the percived uglynes as most see it. I don’t give a sh|t what others think of what I drive. You should see my 96 Saturn, lol.
The fact that this Prius can go a little above 60mph in EV mode is great because most of the time my commute get’s me only up to 45mph with rubberneking drivers watching the construction going on or knuckleads on their PDA phones writng sh|t down. I rarely get up to 60mph anyway. Even if it only went 10miles in EV mode it’s the car for my cheap a$$. My commute is only 9.5 miles one way and I have plugs in our parking lot.
Bring on the EV anything!!!!
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:19 pm)” at least gen iii is a little less ugly then gen ii (imo)”
I agree.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:21 pm)Seems like 2 or 3 times a week a major car company is announcing a new BEV, EREV or gas – electric hybrid with at least 10KWH battery. Today was BMW.
3 thoughts.
1) GM was probaby banking on the fact that they’d be able to sell the first 50,000 – 100,000 cars at whatever price they wanted because of eager early adopters. But it seems like there will be many hundreds of thousands of competing cars in many different forms. There aren’t enough early adopters to buy all these cars coming on the market the next couple years. They will have to compete and lower prices quicker than the wanted to get market share. They will have to get those battery costs downs. The Volt is a 20,000 car with a 10,000 battery and they want to charge 40,000 because they think they can. I think they’ll be selling them for 30,000 a lot sooner then they want to.
2) Even if gas hits $5 in a couple years, (and these car companies must think they will or they wouldn’t all be racing to get a piece of the pie) there will be enough competition to get the prices reasonable in a short order.
3) The winners will be the ones that can get those battery costs down and have the best warranty on those batteries. These are the areas where GM may have an advantage with their head start.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:22 pm)If you can afford a $80K car, why would you settle for the features of a car half the price? Jay’s comment says more about what he wants to buy than about what the general public wants to spend their money on. The vast majority of cars on the road are quite boring, yet they sell. Still, I found the original Volt concept to be too aggressive and not something I’d feel comfortable in.
For the record, I drive a MINI Cooper S. Not your typical boring sedan, but also not a low sexy sport car. Unique without being ridiculously flashy.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:31 pm)This has been discussed time and time again.
It is simply not cost effective as yet to add solar panels to a car.
They simply do not make enough power to make any sort of difference in battery pack charge level.
They can and have been used to run a little fan to cool the interior of the car in summer. But that’s about the limit.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:32 pm)Hot off the Press….
GM to sell Opel to Magna
I assume Lyle is lining up the next post around this? Or maybe Statik will take a stab at this. I think this would be right up his alley.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090910/bs_nm/us_gm_opel
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:37 pm)I believe GM is more likely to seek very hot and very cold temperatures for real-life testing of the Volt.
Florida is not that hot. Arizona or Texas is. And it’s not that cold, they can go Vermont or up north in Alaska. Or maybe in Canada, who knows ?
Nice try though, Zel
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:37 pm)When I question her about an EREV my wife says it’s a nice idea as long as she doesn’t have to sacrifice her current AWD, handling, capacity, or convenience. In other words, as long as it is better in every way than her current Forrester she would consider it. So she won’t be going to any sort of EV any time soon. At least not before there is an SUV or CUV version available.
When questioned consumers always want the new feature or technology as long as they keep everything they’ve currently got. Simply make it better in all ways and cheaper at the same time.
At least they did ask if they’d be willing to pay more for a car with 40 miles AER. I doubt most will be willing to pay the early adopters price. But they won’t be enough EREVs for everyone for a long time anyway. If everyone had to have one we’d never be able to get our own hands on a Volt.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:37 pm)Yes my only concern about the ugly Prius is that I would have to look at it also. If I cared what others thought I doubt I’d drive my current ride.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:38 pm)tom,
“…Let say you buy your car for $22,000 and take out a second loan for 10 years at 7% and a monthly payment of $255.44 (not recommending you do this, just trying to do apples to apples).
And I go out and buy a vold for $33,000 after tax credits and I take out a second loan mortgage for 10 years at 7% and my monthly payment is $383.16….
I am saving over $20 a month on my transportation costs versus your prius.
Plus I’ll not have to pay for oil changes or buy a foreign car. I’ll know I’m helping my country by not burning fossil fuels, and my energy dollars will go to Americans Utility companies instead of funding terrorists that kill american citizens and soliders.”
_____________________
Tom,
I never thought of it in those terms because I want to save up and pay cash for my next car.
The analysis sounds doable and practical except for a few concerns. If you keep driving the car for ten years then this can make some sense. I you sell before ten years and you are upside down ( the loan is higher than the value of the car) you’ll have to pay cash to end the loan or be paying for two cars, one that you don’t even have any more!
Right now a second loan is hard to get, and many homeowners are upside down, both on their Houses and their SUV’s.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:44 pm)“Should VOLT even roughly match Fisker’s range potential – and that can only happen if it makes its ER ICE comparable ”
Ummm you DO realize that the fiskar ICE .(drum roll) IS made by GM?? So as far as acheiving comparability..negative perpiration…
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+3
Sep 10th, 2009 (12:48 pm)SEMI OFF Topic..
I love trolls.
As GM-Volt.com becomes #1 in search engines, many people visit here..Trolls in their inherently ignorant and stupid posting allow us the opportunity to correct the misinformation.
Plus I enjoy the occasional slam to stupid people.
Brutus, willie, studley, john, carlos, dunderhead, moron, stupis, sleepy sneezy and dopey…you are welcome here and IWFTT (I will feed the trolls).
Thank you.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:56 pm)“When I question her about an EREV my wife says it’s a nice idea as long as she doesn’t have to sacrifice her current AWD, handling, capacity, or convenience. In other words, as long as it is better in every way than her current Forrester she would consider it. So she won’t be going to any sort of EV any time soon. ”
That is a pretty reasonable attitude with todays gas prices and availability.. but an EREV does not have to give anything up to the Subaru Forester and even have an advantage since it can be refueled at home.. but it will cost more.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (12:58 pm)Yep. Here’s a copy of my post yesterday’s Fisker article.
The key to ER success is range and the engine (ICE) selected by Fisker is an excellent choice. Fisker’s ER ICE being capable (a belief based on the article) of charging to 100% (80% actual or whatever) the Li-ion SOC stand-alone addresses a serious barrier any pure EV’s faces — range. That being the case, VOLT has to take notice. In this late 2009 era of instant awareness and response to competition, I would think VOLT is pulling all stops to have an ER ICE capable of stand-alone charge to a reasonable, if not 100%, SOC. As Fisker has shown, a modest GM engine can accomplish the mission. Hardly is under 300 HP being overpowered.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:03 pm)Although Florida does have Salt in the air. This might make Jacksonville an overall more extreme place than Arizona
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:11 pm)Well I said I didn’t recommend doing it that way, I was trying to do an apples to apples on the value of money.
But I do think this brings up an important point.
When you buy an electric car with a $10,000 battery, you are prepaying say like 80% of your fuel expenses. So you’ll save at least $100 month and probably more on fuel and oil changes, so maybe you need to take that into account when you figure how much you want to finance or even lease.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:14 pm)I like to include a small quote of the comment I’m replying to, if it’s in the same sub-thread, it may not need actual addressing (but you notice I don’t remember to do it every single time).
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:14 pm)That paint scheme has to go..
Assuming Toyota is paying $700 per kwh of battery capacity, assuming they have a SOC of 50% (like the Volt) plus 30% packaging cost then battery cost would be $4500.. substract the cost of the present battery and you would end up around a total cost difference of $2500
So perhaps the plug-in option would be less than $3k.. how much of a federal tax credit do you get for a 6.25kwh battery pack?.. about $3k
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:18 pm)Lots of room on the roof of a mid-to-large Post Office for solar arrays, too.
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+1
Sep 10th, 2009 (1:21 pm)I DO NOT want a power company cycling my limited-life, expensive battery; unless it’s actually their battery, that I am leasing. I’m not too hot on leasing, either.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:25 pm)“I would have to look at it also”
Um, only the inside; most of the time.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:26 pm)Sounds more like 3-4KWh battery to me. 2KWh from wall and lifetime buffer. This would mean AER is more ear candy then a practical driving situation. Battery only acceleration would be very limited, but as Carcus1 points out it is the economy under blended mode that will really matter.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:27 pm)Yes, but that goes against the main mission of the Volt which is to use electric first and use as little gas as possible.
Hence the running the battery to depletion and THEN starting the genset.
If the genset charges the battery completely then what’s the point of buying a Volt in the first place? That’s what a Prius does!
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:29 pm)I think he may be talking about a stationary gizmo you would plug the Volt into.
The trouble with GM providing this is that the need to adapt it to different physical circumstances at different locations better meets the business plan of a local installation service. Also, unless you’re actually going to stay home all day plugged into the solar array, you need to sell the power back to the utility, or invest in some kind of stationary storage system to go with it. Either thing has ramifications which go far beyond the Volt, or what GM might provide for it’s use.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:31 pm)Not Hearland maybe, but perhaps Heartland?
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:34 pm)The Fisker also uses a lot of parts from the Solstice. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find them using many of the Volt specific accessory parts (such as the A/C compressor and power steering motor). Except for the battery choice, one could almost call it the Pontiac Sport Voltec-by-proxy.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:37 pm)3) The winners will be the ones that can get those battery costs down, have the best warranty, and most successfully demonstrate the actual usability and practicality of their core concept.
I don’t disagree with you, I just thought that was an important addition.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:44 pm)Tom,
Canadians are already paying over $4.50 a gallon for gas , it just looks cheap because the price is in liters at $1.13
(A liter and an American quart are nearly the same volume)
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:49 pm)I had to explain to someone again yesterday that the Volt’s ICE did not charge the batteries. This person was also an engineer in the auto biz, and they still didnt know this simple fact about the Volt. Its going to take time to educate everyone.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:54 pm)Never heard of Hearland. Must be Tritchanese crap.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:54 pm)On your way out to the car, you’d just have to keep your head down– “fiddling with your fob”– till you’ve had a seat.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (1:55 pm)“I DO NOT want a power company cycling my limited-life, expensive battery; unless it’s actually their battery”
Exactly!
The whole V2G idea is really bad for the owner of the battery in my opinion. It’s highly unlikely that they (the power company) will pay enough to make up for the lost cycles on the battery.
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+2
Sep 10th, 2009 (2:00 pm)Technically you have a point. They make us re-iterate the basic truth and bunk the myths of the volt on every subject matter. This does help those that just view. I just like playing “smack the troll”. Kind of like that kids game at Chuck E Chees’s where you whack a mole. I’m just a different kinf of troll, a “Troller Park MAggot!!!!”
AHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:04 pm)Yes. I will have to see how ugly it is inside as well. But I’m likely to be even more critical inside since I will be evaluating the placement, operation, and look of controls and readouts.
But if I’m paying any sort of premium for a vehicle a groan-worthy exterior will probably be a deal-breaker.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:14 pm)Hey Carcus1, ever try to go look a the mythical bas model Prius for $23,000.00? I went to 4 dealers and nobody had one. The only ones available are the 3rd tier or whatever it’s called that’s in th $28K – $31K. I think they’re fake and don’t exist myself. Their claim of that model was just advertising bullsh|t.
Just IMHO.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:14 pm)Also hot off the press.
(I hope none of these are Volt engineers)
GM To Layoff 1,000 White-Collar Jobs In September
http://www.automotive-business-review.com/news/gm_to_layoff_1000_whitecollar_jobs_in_september_090909
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:19 pm)It’s no myth, you can find them for under $23k.
http://photos.streetfire.net/photo/Wrecked-Priuss-because-a_1306390.htm
/(I’ve test driven but never got down to talking about numbers)
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+1
Sep 10th, 2009 (2:20 pm)DUDE!
You’r killin me. You’re comparing a small ass solar charger that’s only the most 4Watts to a charger required to charge an 8KW batt pack? WTF you smoikn hommie?
Here, try his…..
Take the physical size of your iphone solar charger and multiply it times 2000 (8KW/4watts) and that’s the size of your solar charger for any 8KWh batt pack. Lemme know if you want to mount that on your car, I have tons of duct tape.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:20 pm)Amen Captain
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:25 pm)If the Solstice is being discontinued, how long are they going to be able to source these parts? And where will the parts support come from down the road? And didn’t somebody say yesterday the the turbo engine package is being discontinued after this year?
Careful guys. Can anyone say “orphan”?
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:25 pm)See http://www.dsireusa.org for rebates in your locality.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:29 pm)And to think some yahoos on this site actually think those batteries will decrease AND that the manufacturers will pass on savings to the customer. Feeble minded thinkers with shrunken cortex.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:30 pm)LOL! subtle as always my friend!
Correct of course, but sooooo understated!
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:31 pm)To me it’s a backhanded compliment.
If your forum kicks up enough dust to make some corporate players somewhere nervous, they roll up their PR guys and their “astroturfing” operation to try to take the edge off. Dr. Dennis, and we, must be doing something right.
Plus, it gets the ‘hit’ count up, which can’t hurt either. Bring it on boys and girls, it’s all good.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:32 pm)Lithium batteries like the ones the Volt will use do not use rare-earth metals.. brushless AC motors (like the one in the Volt) does not use rare-earth metals either.
The Prius uses permanent magnet brushless DC motors and that will be affected.. but they could redesign. Not sure if the battery in the Prius is affected, probably not.
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Sep 10th, 2009 (2:33 pm)I think Laura M brought this to our attention a couple of days ago. The loss of Neodymium is more harmful to Toyota (is it a trace component of NiMh batteries? I know it’s used to make permanent magnets used in DC motors, which doesn’t affect the Volt’s induction motor).
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