Posted by Lyle in: Competitors, Original GM-Volt Interviews, Public Opinion with 337 Comments
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Last week Audi North America President Johan de Nysschen was quoted as saying the Chevy Volt was a ”car for idiots.” This led to an explosion of web controversy.
Finding this comment hard to believe, and as an ardent Volt enthusiast, I sought the truth direct from the source, and had a half hour informal conversation with Mr. de Nysschen as an interchange of ideas.
Business Case Idiotic, Not People
De Nysschen underscored the debacle of his quote by noting the tragic irony that a senior executive two weeks before the launch of his own company’s electric car would be calling people who would by them idiots.
“I don’t think the Volt is a car for idiots,” he said. He claimed the headline was a journalist’s misinterpretation, and that his point was that the Volt was “an idiotic business case,” and not how he would refer to people.
“We might as well have been taking about the Tesla,” he said. “I am not an enemy of the (Volt) concept.” But he argues that we should not think of it as a magic bullet.
He thinks the business case for an electric car is idiotic because buyers “cannot amortize their incremental fixed investment in the cost of the car to the savings in fuel consumptions.”
And for those who are willing to supplement the cost through affluence for the sake of the environment, his opinion is that benefit is not clear either.
Questions CO2 Emissions Benefit of Electric Cars
de Nysschen said that he “cares very, very deeply about the planet, what we are doing to it and how our activities of today are shaping tomorrow.”
A prominent fallacy he says is that electric cars cause zero emissions, and said he was “astonished” such “misconceptions” are even held by people in positions of power who make legislative decisions and are close-minded to other options.
He is troubled that coal-fired power plants and related efficiency losses eventually release more CO2 than burning diesel, and referred to a CARB report that says electric power cars are second only to hydrogen powered cars in terms of the well to wheel emissions because of the way US gets its power. Though he did admit that it would be a different equation if electricity were created by renewable sources.
I asked him if he was aware of the EPRI-NRDC study from 2007 that showed CO2 emissions from EVs supplied by current powerplants would be less than if those cars were gas powered. He admitted he was “not familiar with that study.”
Agrees Energy Independence Important
As he had never mentioned it, I told him what I’ve noticed about Volt fans, and told him I have a list of 50,000 people, is a common theme of a desire for energy independence; that people don’t want energy from foreign sources.
He agreed that “that is a very worthwhile argument.”
But, “getting people to understand the benefits of clean diesel is important,” he said. He argued that if 30% of new cars sold in the US were to be clean diesel (the number right now is 50% in Europe), we would save as much oil annually as we import from Saudi Arabia, which is 1.5 billion barrels of oil per year.
Thinks Other Alternatives Should Come Before EVs
He says waiting to get to the “promise land” of EVs will lead to a lot of “dirt in the atmosphere” and instead feels we should move to complementary technologies sooner, including clean diesel, new generation gas engines, and biofuels.
He admitted diesel still comes from foreign sources and won’t make us independent, but less dependent. He argues it would do so because we would “need less of it (than gas) because diesel engines are more efficient.”
To get that diesel, he explains, when a barrel of oil is cracked it can be varied to produce more diesel than gasoline by tuning the distillation process. He also says diesel engines, being more efficient, produce 25% less CO2, have “beautiful power characteristics,” and are more economical.
He points out that the US has the world’s largest resources of natural gas, and argues that we could use it to power some of the power plants, though notes it’s more expensive than coal. He suggested the government should subsidize the use of natural gas in powerplants.
He also argues the natural gas could be used to produce clean diesel in a gas to liquid process, though admits it’s still a fossil fuel and not renewable.
He suggests another good option is using ethanol, not from corn which he called “an outrage”, but from new technologies creating it from waste material. He admits this wouldn’t result in vehicles which themselves do not produce emissions.
Electric Cars
He does believe electric cars “are the solution in the long-term,” but thinks we won’t get to that point for 20 years.
If we want EVs, he says, we face potentially “staggering” investments including cleaning up coal-powered plants and generating new capacity. Simply switching to EVs right now, he says, without cleaning up power generation is just “adding more pollution to the environment.”
Though he thinks the Volt’s business case is “troublesome” it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t go down that road, he said. In fact, he actually supported it saying “how else would we learn and get experience and expertise (in EVs),” such that “the next generation is better.”
For that reason, in fact, he admitted “Audi too is working on electric cars and on the verge of making announcement about electric cars of their own.”
He believes in particular dense urban conditions such as the US West Coast, it makes sense to have cars that produce zero emissions where they are used. Here he says he sees “a massive role” for electric cars and “cars such as the Volt.”
The Chevy Volt
Doesn’t Work For Him
Asked why he thinks it will take 20 years for EVs to take hold he said one issue is the cost of the batteries, and the other is the limited amount of energy that can be stored in them.
I pointed out that the whole point of the Volt is it has the smallest battery possible that would allow most people to drive all of their daily needs without gas, thus minimizing battery cost and maximizing electrical driving.
He claimed the information Audi has is that the range available with these batteries is that if you are in heavy stop and go traffic with max 10 mph speed you could get “a tolerable amount of range.” But he said if you are doing highway driving 30 miles each way, as he does personally, it is his opinion that “he would have to switch to the gas motor long before he gets to work,” and that “even after he gets to work the infrastructure isn’t there to charge the battery.”
He would then have to drive the car home on gas too, in which case, he says ”the whole issue becomes a little bit moot, because if he’s driving mostly on the gas, it doesn’t work for him.” He admitted “it might well work” for other people with shorter commutes and different driving conditions.
He actually said “we should not summarily dismiss the (Volt) technology.” He admits “there is a role for it.” The people that buy the car will have to be “a particular subset of the total commuting public.”
Questions Value Proposition
I asked about why he thinks the Volt doesn’t offer what it should at $40,000.
To be fair he said, “I have never obviously driven a Volt” but admits “he has always looked at the car with great interest.” He even sat in it at an auto show, and said “it’s not exactly a Cadillac.”
He considers it very similar to the Saturn Aura which he thought was a “fine GM car,” and actually said he was “sad to see Saturn’s demise.” He then said the Volt would not be a better car but cost twice as much.
What you are getting, he says, is in his circumstance is half time zero emissions, zero fuel emissions. This is why he thinks if most people did the math they would have to find another reason why they would buy the Volt, it won’t be to save money.
I argued that the first generations of new technology always have to be subsidized by the well off who may have many different reasons for buying it.
“You are right,” he said, all new technology always cost more. He noted that was why luxury cars usually lead the way with groundbreaking technology.
I asked if he believed that that Chevy Volt design doesn’t match a high end car. “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder,” he said. “I don’t find it an unattractive car.”
“Its not a premium car feel,” he said. “But it’s got a premium car price.”
I argued it may not be a value equation but that there is the $7500 tax credit to bring it to $32,500.
He says this issue is his main point, whether this government expense is “the best way to clean up the environment,” and that there might be a better way to apply those tax credits to incentivize the utility companies to clean up the power stations.
Audis’ Electric Car Plans
I asked if Audi was planning a production electric car or an EREV and he did not actually provide an answer. He said what Audi and all car companies need to do is to continue to make gas and diesel engines for “many, many years in the future,” but they have to also produce hybrid cars and plug in electrics.
I asked if he thinks the idea of driving electrically with its smooth instant torque and driving pleasure was of value. He said he thinks it is a “very interesting driving experience” and admitted he has driven Audi’s own electric car prototypes and that “it’s very different.” He thinks it will be part of the engineering challenge to still “maintain an exhilarating driving experience and not seem like driving a golf cart.”
Asked specifically if he thought the Volt was a reasonable piece of the puzzle, he said “Oh absolutely, and even a required piece of the puzzle.”
For what its worth I told him I was the de facto number one Volt fan. He said “I certainly would never want to call you an idiot.”
Finally I asked him for information about Audi’s upcoming EV. He said he would “love to” tell me, but it would remove the fanfare from Audi’s announcement in Frankfurt, “so we’ll have to wait on that one.”
This entry was posted on Tuesday, September 8th, 2009 at 6:00 am and is filed under Competitors, Original GM-Volt Interviews, Public Opinion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
-1
Sep 8th, 2009 (6:14 am)The Volt is just as premium as any of the stinking diesels Audi sells.. and way better, smooth instant torque, quiet and no fuel used for the first 30-40 miles.. I am getting used to the Volt at $40 k, obviously its not for everyone but there wont be that many Volts anyways.
Has anyone heard of the Renault Elect’Road?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect‘road
The Renault Elect’Road was the first erev sold..it begin selling in 2003 and was discontinued after 500 were sold.
It uses a manually controlled 21hp genset to extend the range of its 13kwh nimh battery pack. Electric only range is 50 miles, 60mph max speed.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (6:25 am)Nice work on the follow-up, Lyle.
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+11
Sep 8th, 2009 (6:27 am)Good job with the interview Lyle.
Thank you Mr. Nysschen for your opinions regarding EV, the Volt, the future of fuel, and the direction of Audi.
My belief is that the first 100,000 (or more) Volt will be sold before the paint dries. The only hurdles I see are NGMCO going with a lease format. Or if the Volt ends up overpriced by greedy middle men.
Again, thanks for your imput and good luck with your product line.
=D~
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+3
Sep 8th, 2009 (6:28 am)Well i don’t think Audi sells stinking diesels. Actually let’s face it, Audi cars looks great. But i believe that fuel economy is a very important detail of a vehicle. While it’s obvious that Volt does not look like a 40k car, it will pay you back when you start using electricity. Plus it doesn’t have to be a magic bullet. You just gotta sell some Volts and the prices would go down over time, and the design of the car will probably be better too. As I said before, GM should have worked a little more on the design of Volt. Don’t get me wrong I like the car, but i just think it doesn’t look like a 40k car. Considering their claims that the performance and feel of the car are great, why was it that hard to come up with a design of a 40k car? Just the design!
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+4
Sep 8th, 2009 (6:28 am)Not a very well thought out set of answers for a man in his position. His answers tend towards the uninformed.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (6:31 am)I dont think anyone on this site is against diesels. Alot of people have expressed a desire for a diesel range extender.
With a combination of the Volts battery and a high mpg diesel range extender running on biodiesel (Hopefully not from corn) plus our domestic supply of oil is the quickest way to getting away from foreign oil.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (6:32 am)here is a better link:
http://tinyurl.com/lfmpyj
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+5
Sep 8th, 2009 (6:35 am)Oh Humble pie, never tasted so good……..
The Volt is a very necessary vehicle as NONE of the other manufactures had the guts to do so, including Audi.
I’m very glad that GM with Volt is setting the pace.
Well done GM.
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-2
Sep 8th, 2009 (6:46 am)Price drop over time. . . .Like what we’ve seen on the two-mode Hybrid Tahoes and Silverados?
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+18
Sep 8th, 2009 (6:56 am)From the article (Well done, Lyle)
But, “getting people to understand the benefits of clean diesel is important,” he said. He argued that if 30% of new cars sold in the US were to be clean diesel (the number right now is 50% in Europe), we would save as much oil annually as we import from Saudi Arabia, which is 1.5 billion barrels of oil per year.
A smoker who cuts down from 3 packs a day to one, is still a smoker.
A drug addict who only shoots up once a day instead of 3, is still an addict.
In his argument, we may use 1.5 billions barrels less oil per year, but we are still users. We need to get off of oil, not continue to support it.
Volt is a very very good first logical step off of oil.
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+8
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:00 am)I think most people assume that battery prices will fall over the next decade as interest in batteries for automotive use skyrockets.
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+3
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:00 am)nuclearboy,
I got the same sense of his experience with electric vehicles being seriously limited. I’m sure Lyle could run rings around him (and did in the interview).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 8th, 2009 (7:02 am)Martin,
Yeas, the fellow nearly tore ligaments doing a turnaround oin his opinion!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+5
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:05 am)First, thanks to Lyle for another great interview. It’s nice to get he real story direct from the source.
Unfortunately, my opinion of Johan de Nysschen has not changed. I basically disagree with most of what he says in the interview.
If gasoline goes back to $4/gallon, the amount of gas savings over 10 years will make the Volt cost around the same as a Honda Civic. So, as it turns out, with the federal tax credit, the Volt is not expensive to own. And as the production volume goes up, costs will come way down, so the tax credit will be unnecessary in the future.
As for CO2 emissions, I also disagree, and so does Nova:
“Skeptics say that all plug-ins do is shift the pollution source from the tailpipe to the smokestack, but studies show that powering cars with electricity from today’s mix of power plants could reduce greenhouse emissions by about 40 percent. Further reductions are possible if electric power gets cleaner.”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/tm/3507.html?site=22&pl=wmp&rate=hi&ch=5
About the only thing I agree with the that the future will have more bio-fuels, but for me, that only seems viable if EREVs go mainstream. Without making most of the miles driven electric, bio-fuels will start cutting into our food supply. So I see bio-fuels as a perfect solution for the range extender, but not as a replacement for all of today’s gasoline consumption.
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+4
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:17 am)Rally good interview Lyle.
For the preisdent of a company to be saying the things he was saying, when in a week they are going to be introducing their own electric vehicle, just seems kind of strange. It is almost like the corporate management is not really behind the project. And it really does not sound like he has read any of the reports we have talked about here with respect to all of the unused electric generating capacity at night that can be used to charge millions of electric vehicles without increasing capacity.
Or is it that they can not come in at the $40K price of the Volt, and are tring to say that electric vehicles must cost much more, and therefore are not the path to follow.
If his round trip commute is 60 miles, then he is also out of the norm for the 78% of the drivers in the USA that have commutes of less than 40 miles. So that is the reason not to go forward???
I am sorry, but this guy just does not sound very progressinve to me.
An optomist will work through all problems to get something they truly believe in accomplished.
A pessimist will just fret about why something is not able to be done.
Which catagory do you think Mr. Johan de Nysschen fits in? I think if I owned stock in the company, I would be calling for a change of leadership……
Here is the exciting (NOT!) web site Audi has set up for their electric car…..
http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/exp/progress.html#source=http://www.audiusa.com/us/brand/en/exp/progress/electricityuntamed.html?csref=inin_electricityuntamed&container=layerModal
JMHO
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+4
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:21 am)No. Two-mode Hybrid Tahoes and Silverados don’t sell that much. But you already knew that, didn’t you?
The point of the Volt is that it is meant for the masses. The tax credit will help sales initially. After the first 250,000 Volts sold, I believe the costs will have come down to the point where the tax credits are unnessary.
The Prius followed a similar pattern – using tax credits at first to make it more viable. Now that the Prius tax credits have expired, the production volume and associated cost is such that the tax credits are unnessary.
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+3
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:22 am)If you DO THE MATH for every car you consider of course buying a horse or a bicycle may be cheaper. SO when does a regular car ever pay you back for its cost. Answer: It never does, in fact it depreciates as fast as you can pay it off, so whats his point. For some ,driving while using no gas is all the luxury they need.
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+3
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:25 am)A volt with an array of solar collectors on the garage roof (my version of the perfect car) would change his equation quite a bit.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (7:26 am)Great score on the interview Lyle. There was too much wishy washy remarks on Johann’s behalf for me to take him seriously. His own Company is days away from unveiling their own EV and yet he still fights and argues how EV’s are dirtier than diesels because of coal fired power plants. He goes back and forth so many times through the interview I got dizzy reading it. I think deep down, reading between the lines, he doesn’t like the EV concept as a whole. But he is required to like it because Audi and everyone else are pursuing it. He’s a diesel guy tried and true and no amount of logic, data, studies, or statistics will change his mind about that. That’s fine, he is entitled to his opinion, no matter how narrow.
The thing GM needs to take home from this is that Mr. N. is not the only person that feels this way about the Volt and other EV’s. There are many people out there that need to understand and see for themselves why an EREV is such a great solution. The burden is on GM to show these people what the Volt can do for them, then sales and profits will eventually follow.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:31 am)That sure nails it. It never pays you back.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:35 am)What percentage of the volt’s $40,000+ price tag do you think is tied up in battery cells?
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:35 am)I take it that any views other than Mr Johan de Nysschen are idiotic. Now, he’s trying to weasel his way of out his negative Volt remark.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:36 am)This transision period from fossil fuels to electric is going to be tough going for a few years and there are always going to be those who think backwards. Batteries obviously need further development as do solar panels. There is no alternative but electric so we must push on. When gasoline hits four to six dollars a gallon you will not be able to find a Chevy Volt anywhere for sale, waiting period may be two years or more.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (7:38 am)Excellent remarks Rashiid. Well said.
+50
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:40 am)Randy,
Well put. Similarly, retirement never “pays you back” but the luxury of having time to do whatever you want (as long as it doesn’t involve money) is incredible!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 8th, 2009 (7:43 am)Schmeltz,
Yep, he’s no Bob Lutz! (g). (ducks and covers)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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-1
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:44 am)Bravo Lyle for clearing this up. Clean diesel has a place in cutting back on oil consumption and again it is something that can be bought now. They also should be designed now to run on bio-diesel.
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+4
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:45 am)From the article,
He is troubled that coal-fired power plants and related efficiency losses eventually release more CO2 than burning diesel, and referred to a CARB report that says electric power cars are second only to hydrogen powered cars in terms of the well to wheel emissions because of the way US gets its power.
I am not an expert, and I don’t play one on TV.
However, it seems logical to me that is easier to control pollution at one side (coal plant) than it is on millions of cars and trucks.
It will be quicker and easier to upgrade pollution controls at one location than it will be to upgrade pollution controls on millions of cars and trucks. This argument about the power plants not being clean and this is why we shouldn’t go EV, is getting a bit old.
Personally, I would like my Volt to use E85 from cellulose for now.
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+4
Sep 8th, 2009 (7:58 am)As I stated before, both he and the North American Toyota head are shrilling howling for attention for their advanced alternative fuel / propulsion techs, trying to draw attention from the spotlight on plugin hybrids and BEV’s. It is a sign of frustration that they cannot get any media attention for their products.
Johan is a fool. ICE vehicles are going to be a majority of the vehicle market share for decades, as most people will not be able to afford the first generation(s) EREV’s, BEV’s, FCV’s and PFCEV’s (plugin fuel cell electric vehicle). He has nothing to worry about, but has run his mouth anyway.
Audi would be wise to replace him ASAP.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (8:07 am)more than 1/3 of the cost is attributable to the batteries.. we know the raw cost to GM is $12k for the complete battery pack ($8k for the cells alone).. then you have to also include warranty cost for the pack and the cost of money to make all this happen.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (8:14 am)A diesel range extender is a bad idea, many people will seldom use the range extender at all.. 80% of the publics commute is under 40 miles daily. Diesels are heavy, expensive, use exotic emission controls and are maintenance prone.. why would you want to saddle a Volt with something like this when it would seldom be used?
Many people own Volkswagen diesels, ask them about maintenance cost long term.. not when the car is 2 years old.
GM did the right thing by choosing a standard engine from their stable, nothing too exotic.. heck not even a turbo.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (8:16 am)I think his days at Audi are numbered..
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (8:21 am)Joe,
I guess you could say that he’s “RE-Volting” (groan).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+4
Sep 8th, 2009 (8:36 am)I’ve never in my life seen a finer technical interview which brought about the revelation of the most pervasive circular-logic, inconsistent marketer’s positioning, and technically-foolish and dishonest representations whereby an executive has impeached himself to the maximum extent technically-possible.
All for their own twisted marketing of a type of engine which produces carcinogenic diesel microparticulates which the lungs can not expel.
He will undoubtedly claim “I didn’t see that study” when it is his firm’s turn to be brought to answer for its more dangerous form of carcinogenic pollution, for which I believe there are not yet laws on the books here in America. (Most certainly not in Germany, the place where diesel was invented).
Once again, and in even a more gross manner, he has brought additional further discredit upon his firm which by now as we now know, consist of these corporate competitive self-deceits that are so firmly established and entrenched, only the deluded would not now recognize its own self-damages and cause rational change.
For some, overt or subvert “hints” do not work. But if gentle direct and blunt statements which are made at a whisper level that their situation has proved to be very harmful for specific reasons does not work right away, then often they may work later.
Otherwise, the clear protest of free speech can warn the public beforehand.
These interviews are imperative for us all to continue to understand how executives who make these decisions affecting our personal health and future global health refuse to do their “due diligence”. Design-entrenchment blocks them from referencing outside independent research for safety and everything else (which is their very job). And, all too often, very deliberately and/or callously disregarding or abrogating rational and clear responsibilities.
Thank you Lyle, for your exceptional work. You are quite a hero it’s clear to me and most of us here.
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-2
Sep 8th, 2009 (8:54 am)The only problem with your approach it will cost an arm and a leg. And a kidney.
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+3
Sep 8th, 2009 (8:56 am)Bingo Rashiid !!!
I just had a conversation last night and this is (one of) the exact arguments I used for my “formidable (Volt) opponent”…. he owns an ‘08 VW Golf and loves it – he is a big German engineering guy (as am I actaully)…and this guy loves to argue….
So when I brought up this whole Johan @ Audi calling people idiots thing he, not surprisingly, totally agreed with Johan and started bashing the Volt for several reasons…and because of my time here on GM-Volt.com…I totally “nailed” this guy’s arguments…
His reasons and my responses (paraphrased of course)
1) The Volt at $40k is WAY too expensive, it isnt ecomonical —- agreed BUT aren’t all things that are in their 1st generation, how much was the first CD palyer? or the first iPod? you gotta start somewhere = NAILED HIM
2) The pollution will simply be moved from the tailpipes to the power plants it will not help the environment —- somewhat agreed but (see your comment above) = NAILED HIM
3) GM’s reliability vs. almost any other car company is terrible —- OK, niether of us are really GM guys but I know they have gotten better over the past few years BUT what are all these other car company’s track records on reliability of ELECTRICALLY driven vehicles? answer ZERO = NAILED HIM
4) I cant imagine that this Volt or any other electric car will be fun to drive —- Well, of course I would need to test drive the Volt before any final decisions are made but as far as the potential just go check out a little company called Tesla (which he only heard of but knew very little about) = NAILED HIM (sort of)
Then I gave him the main reason why the Volt is a ground-breaking technology and why we NEED this electric revolution to take hold here ….. which is to use less and less foreign oil….to which reluctantly agreed.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (8:57 am)I agree, but more to the point when gas gets to $4+ diesel will be even more expensive per gallon. At least that’s the experience over the last decade or so…
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Sep 8th, 2009 (9:00 am)When gasoline will hit 6-8 bucks price range the US economy will be in a free fall in such a way that Great Depression will be renamed to Little Recession. By then no one will be able to afford $40k car. Last year we got a taste of $4/gallon gas: 10% unemployment followed.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (9:03 am)I’m having my garage roof painted with thin film solar and a Esstore battery pack to which I power the house and recharge my Volt!! Life is good !!! 9-8-19 see ya soon!!
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:04 am)What are you talking about, Randy? My car pays me every day. I go to work, and the only way in the US to get to work is to drive a car. There is no public transportation in suburbs. Don’t you know that?
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:05 am)i said this before, but everytime i hear about diesel, the idea that it will be better for our energy dependence is just false. i ahve seen this stat used in a few different places now and the numbers are always the same…
“About 20 gallons of gasoline and 7 gallons of diesel are produced from each barrel of crude oil. ”
source: http://genomicsgtl.energy.gov/biofuels/transportation.shtml#gallons
so if we all went to diesel, we would hit peak oil a LOT FASTER!!!!
i did more research, and i found that his “and” was meant to be an “or” in the above quote.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (9:07 am)Is there a difference between “clean diesel” and the diesel that’s available now? Or is it the same thing?
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:12 am)lyle, give google a chance and search for audi a1.
maybe you’ll find a hybrid concept, similiar to the volt
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-2
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:14 am)Oil independence is one of those idiotic arguments. US came out strong most times exactly because they were pragmatic, not fanatic. Americans used common sense and counted pennies better than anybody else. Nowadays this becomes a rare commodity. Trendsetters are paying top buck for “feeling good”. Is dependency on China or Bolivia better tasting than on Saudis?
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Sep 8th, 2009 (9:24 am)ha-ha-ha. That was funny. But not realistic in 2019. Or did you mean 3019?
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:25 am)With respect, you are mistaken, Sheltonjr.
Americans will be very difficult to sway to diesel. Most of our actual experiences sharing the road with them (and to some degree with owning them) have been far less than ideal.
Hopefully, HCCI will offer many of the benefits of diesel without much of the expense for ‘clean’ fuel, heavy engine blocks, and several other distinctly diesel disadvantages.
As for German automakers’ (not just Audi’s) vision of diesel utopia, it simply isn’t going to happen here. That’s not to say that diesel might not have a larger role in the States given plentiful, clean bio-diesel (which is an uncertain prospect at this point).
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:29 am)Is being dependent on anything better than standing on ones own feet?
No.
We can generate 100% of the power we need to electrify the automobile. And we can do this without relying on any foreign country. It will just take some time. The Volt is a good first step towards that goal.
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+3
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:31 am)I don’t normally post, but I had to say I find it hypocritical that the CEO of Audi can say that people will have to find a reason other than saving money to buy a Chevy Volt. If saving money was the reason people bought cars, then the Audi line of vehicles would fail miserably.
It seems to me a CEO of a company that’s concerned that there is a product that may just resonate with customers, even if the first generation of technology isn’t economically viable – people WILL buy it for other reasons. The price will come down – IMO, it’s probably the best bridge to full battery electric vehicles. If Audi believes BEV’s won’t be ready for 20 years… then the Volt has a 20-year window to capitalize. If I were him, I’d be worried about my competitor having the first-mover advantage and talk smack about it. Oh, that IS what is happening.
Brian
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Sep 8th, 2009 (9:32 am)so maybe it makes more sense to spend those 7500 rebates on improving oil refinement process than subsidizing new VOLT-oys? The guy said it is possible.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:43 am)What percentage of the volt’s $40,000+ price tag do you think is tied up in battery cells?
The cost of the cells is $8K, so that would be 20%. Another $3.5K is for the electronics and other parts of the pack. The rest of the premium is for all the specialized parts you need for an EV. I’m not a big believer that cell prices will fall that quickly, but the good news is that the controller and other parts should come down very quickly.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:46 am)I still think GM should seriously look at converting the entire light truck (half tons and Tahoes) production to 2-mode drive. With volume production comes significant cost savings.
This does two things; first of all you instantly have the most fuel efficent truck fleet by a significant margin and this means that GM is well ahead of the CAFE fleet mileage requirements in one shot.
Seems like a no-brainer to me.
There is a rather silly TV show called “Mean Green Machines”, they compared the Hybrid Tahoe against a regular Silverado in several challenges, off road, towing, acceleration, etc. Performance wise it was basically a wash, but the Tahoe gets much better gas mileage.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:46 am)Yes, congrats to Lyle. He’s burnishing his journalistic credits more every day!
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+3
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:50 am)Aside from the battery, the other cost issue for Volt 1.0 is the “new” parts needed for the car. Lutz noted earlier in one of his comments that GM needed more “new” things developed than they originally estimated. This apparently added $10K to the cost since he initially assumed they would use off the shelf stuff and the car should cost around $30K.
Prices for these “new” components should drop over time too as they become more standardized with EV adoption.
Future EREV designs should not cost twice as much as a similarly outfitted ICE vehicle.
If they could shave $5K off the cost of the “new” stuff and $5K off the cost of a battery we could have a $32K car instead of a $42K car.
Let’s hope they can actually do it.
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-2
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:50 am)JMH: “It is a sign of frustration that they cannot get any media attention for their products.”
The poor, sad folks at Toyota will just have to console themselves with sales of over 18K Priuses per month. How tragic it is to be Toyota.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (9:52 am)You’re on a roll today.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:52 am)Thanks Murray.
I had the opportunity to talk to a guy this weekend at Blackies.
If you lived near me, you would know that Blackies is a burger, hot dog joint that started in the early 1930’s.
He saw my Volt T-shirt and we started talking.
He was confusing the Volt with the Tesla, but I set him straight by explaining the Volt is way cheaper and without range anxiety.
He wasn’t familiar with range anxiety. We ended up having a nice talk. I have no clue who he is but he left well educated about the Volt.
That was a fun conversation.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (9:54 am)All the government would have to do in order to improve oil refinement in the US is to remove or modify the current regulatory barriers which have prevented any new oil refineries from being built here over the past 30 – 40 years. These regulations, under the guise of environmental protection, have instead proven to be a moratorium; a legal gauntlet that no oil company has been willing to run. This is an example of how government impedes rather than assists private sector energy solutions. No regulation which results in the strangulation of an industry can be construed as “successful,” because it removes all incentive for positive change; indeed, in this case it has resulted in no change of any kind.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (9:54 am)exactly.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:58 am)There are two other issues with diesels. One is that “clean diesel” is something of an oxymoron. Diesel engines are more efficient but they also emit more pollution. To reduce the emissions enough so as to meet clean air regulations you add a lot of cost to the car, as Fritz Hendersio has intimated when saying that to sell a diesel you need to sell a car and a chemical plant.
Second is that the cost of diesel is too affected by subsidies in other countries. In Europe diesel is not taxed as heavily as gasoline. In China, India, and the rest of Asia and many other parts of the world, governments limit the price of diesel. If oil spikes the governments limit the price increases, which leads to greater demand for diesel fuel. Since the amount of diesel produced from a barrel of oil is limited, what happens in a country like he USA where the price of diesel is not subsidized is that the price rise for diesel fuel is much greater than the price increase in gasoline. Basically when you have an oil crisis you don’t want a vehicle powered by a diesel engine.
Cellulostic ethanol is a better bet than diesel if for no other reason than cellulostic ethanol would be renewable and carbon neutral.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (9:59 am)This is one of the few times we disagree Jackson.
I’d very much like a diesel genset, my genset WILL run at least weekly and I’d like to have the efficency of a modern diesel in that mode.
MOST of the bad diesel memories are ironically GM’s fault!
The TERRIBLE converted 350 diesels in the 70’s are what MOST people in NA think of when they say bad things about diesels.
(There is no other way to put it they were TERRIBLE!)
The second bad diesel thing is there are “yahoo’s” that have the modern diesel pickups that have gone ahead and put poorly engineered ‘hop-up’ kits on their trucks that make them smoke terribly.
A properly setup modern diesel does NOT smoke like that and DOES deliver excellent economy.
Herm;
Poor quality from an automaker who has a poor quality record isn’t really all THAT surprising is it?
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-5
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:02 am)Is that why Audi is making money?
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:02 am)If we never start projects like Volt (or for that matter, Audi’s BEV), they will remain 20 years away, in perpetuity.
You can’t make a cost over benefits argument for anything new. You start at the point where it’s just possible to establish a market, and grow from there. Hence, we’ve seen first Toyota and now Audi do their best to kill the seed before it can take root.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:04 am)Your point is well taken, but if you take a longer view we need to move away from oil and find more renewable sources of energy. We need increasing amounts of energy to fuel economic growth, and the simple fact is that there simply isn’t enough oil to fuel the economy for the next hundred years.
This is not a new process. When mankind started running out of wood, being practical meant finding another source of energy, not using more and more expensive wood.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:04 am)Diesel in NA is now the same as Europe as of last year. Prior to that we had real crap that helped ‘fuel’ stories of why diesels are bad.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:05 am)The government is good at setting penalties for failing to meet a requirement (CAFE); I wonder if they could be made interested in providing a reward for exceeding it?
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:06 am)Which make the Audi NA comments even MORE bizarre!
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:08 am)dagwood,
Always a ray of sunshine, aren’t you.
I wish you could…
be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:09 am)I didn’t say that diesels were bad, just that Americans would be very difficult to sway, for whatever reason (including those you that you gave).
If I could be sure of finding biodiesel at reasonable price as universally as I could find regular unleaded gasoline (or E85 even), it might almost win me over. A diesel makes a fine powerplant-style engine.
I say almost, but not quite. There is still that small amount of real estate for us to quibble over.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:12 am)RamZ
Is it as easy to change a regular diesel vehicle over to a biodiesel as it is for a gas vehicle? I honestly don’t know.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+3
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:13 am)This will not always be the case. Work on photovoltaics isn’t standing still either.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:15 am)I think the root has already taken hold. Nov, 2010, you will see the first crop ready for sale!!!!
OK, I promise. No more farm references to the Volt…..
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+3
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:15 am)With technology progressing as it is I don’t think it’s unreasonable that in another 10 years solar could be efficent enough and priced at a point where it isn’t out of reach. In my area I’d add a wind turbine as well.
Now… jeff j lost me at EEStor, BUT I see the upcoming sodium/sulfur batteries as a real possibility for home power storage.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:15 am)Rashiid and Murray – education one idiot at a time (lol) Great jobs! My Volt T-shirts and bumper stickers have started a LOT of discussions.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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-2
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:18 am)Geez, let it go already. So the guy doesn’t like the Volt. 3 blog posts about this now???
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+3
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:23 am)I’ve said it before:
Lyle proves the “One man can make a difference in the world” statement. I hope he’s as proud of his effect as we are of him.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+8
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:23 am)“How tragic it is to be Toyota.”
Toyota wants to own the idea of the environmentally friendly automobile; they don’t want customers to think of anyone else. It isn’t a case of shooting down competing technology, it’s in building the existing brand recognition of their solution; so that any development which might compete with Toyo looks like a rip-off (regardless of the facts in any particular case).
So far, with their ‘baby-coated earth’ and ‘cars you plug in’ commercials, they appear to be accomplishing this. Toyota is out there winning hearts and minds, and leaving the bashing to pro-Toyo trolls like you.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:24 am)Correct you are, DonC.
It will take time but we need
better solar collection and better ways of making ethanol from cellulose. Garbage in this country is clearly a renewable source
More hydro electric plants.
We have a huge coast line. Perhaps tidal energy can help.
Wind energy can assist us even if it is not reliable.
For the short term, coal plants are getting cleaner and we have plenty of natural gas. I don’t really want to support fossil fuels, but at least they are ours.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:28 am)Jackson,
Well said. We could also change some of the 17 or so different State formulations of gas, while we’re at it.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:29 am)Muddy,
I didn’t know that. Thanks.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:32 am)lh_newbie,
Very well put and welcome to the forum posters. Warning: It can get to be habit forming.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:34 am)Very disappointing link. I got bored waiting for something significant. GM is the only OEM that is completely honest about the electric vehilcle; they clearly state their intention to move away from ICE driven vehicles to electric propulsion vehicles. Audi has a market and will try to maintain it. Looks like their website for their electric car lacks information about it; they are probably scrambling to find anything they can to file it. It is so comical! I agree they need a change in leadership. This guy is a clown!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:35 am)Excellent interview Lyle.
I have to say Nysschen was also excellent and also has very good points.
Audi has some superb engineering.
Diesel is a good road to be on and prior to my diesel experience I didn’t know just how good they are either. I suspect many, many other American drivers do not have the first hand experience to have a proper opinion….yet.
Today’s Diesels are cleaner than gas engines. They are too quiet to know if it’s a Diesel. I can’t tell you how many times people said “Hey your putting Diesel in there” when I filled my V10 Touareg.
The engine lasts far longer than Gas burners. Is far more efficient and get much better mileage.
We all know as does GM that the well off will be the early adopters. Nothing new here….and the next generations will be affordable. With the rate of new electric entries it looks sooner tan later.
GM is on the right track but still needs a kick in the buttox when they waste time with styling like the Buick plug in that was just a train wreck of style….
Build the Buick Rivera Concept, Converj and pull your head from you know where GM.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:38 am)Lyle, Great Job!
De Nysschen, it’s raining. Switching trees to stand under (gas vs diesel) and you will still get soaked eventually.
On E85 you are only using 15% gasoline. The rest is domestically produced renewable alcohol. We need to be pushing the fact that decreasing GASOLINE use is the goal. My Volt will have synthetic oil in the crankcase as well. (Lyle, that’d be a good question for GM. Are they using synthetic oil and lube?)
There are 7 public E85 stations within 30 miles of my house. Not that I’ll be using any liquid fuel.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:38 am)Sort of with you there….giving this guy too much “pub”
which could very well be the whole adgenda here from the start…if so…job well done (I doubt it though).
at the same time, Lyle gives us so much to talk (read) about …ya cant blame him for going after this story with such vigor…kudos to you again Lyle.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:41 am)The removal of sulfur from diesel fuel is also why it’s now so much more expensive than gasoline. This diesel cleanup was done so that “clean diesels” could be imported to (or created in) NA. The fuel isn’t actually any cleaner when burned in existing diesels, at least that’s my understanding.
So far, I’m not aware that ‘clean diesels’ have been offered for sale here. So, the only meaningful result is that over-the-road truckers now pay more to deliver our goods; passing that cost along to the struggling economy.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:41 am)So, what are we expected to believe? He still seems to indicate that anyone purchasing a Volt would not be doing the right thing for their economic well-being and for the environment. But, of course, if we purchase any Audi vehicle, well, that is a different story. I don’t know if I trust anything he says. I get an oily sensation from this guy. IMO.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:41 am)My problem with so-called clean diesel is there’s no end game that moves us away from fossil fuels. You can’t run a diesel powered vehicle using clean renewable energy, unless algae biodiesel ever hits it’s stride and that’s not a bet I’m willing to take today. Increasingly, I’m not sold on any biofuels, and it’s possible they’re even worse than fossil fuels.
PHEVs and E-REVs lead to EVs. The hugely improved maintenance record for EVs (no exhaust systems, no cooling systems, no ignition systems, improved brake life through regenerative braking) compared to the best of diesels methinks isn’t being considered by diesel aficionados and diesel makers, and there’s more than a small carbon footprint made by the manufacturing process.
EVs might not be a panacea today, but they can get there.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:43 am)RVD:
I dunno, somehow they survive it in Europe. In fact, I heard last week that their economies are recovering faster than ours.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:48 am)I have to agree. This interview is a very impressive “get” on the part of Dr. Dennis, but I really couldn’t care less what Herr Nysschen thinks or says. Next case.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (10:52 am)There is some early cause for concern where exhaust from Ethanol is concerned (more research needs to be done), but Biodiesel actually burns more cleanly than the petroleum-based product (and without the on board ‘clean diesel’ chemistry set).
I think personal transportation will eventually be all or mostly electric, but big trucks will continue to use some form of liquid fuel for the foreseeable future.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:58 am)Interesting talk about the cost of the batt pack on the total cost of the car in a few posts. Let’s all remember that when considering the cost of the batt pack you MUST consider the cost of the controll power electronics of the BMS and it’s software all in the cost. Just shooting the brezeze of the cost of the cells means nothing because the the cells are worthless without a power BMS and it’s management software as well as the interface to the main computer.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (10:58 am)While I don’t particularly like this guy, hasn’t it already been established that the age of the dirty, smelly diesel is gone?
If BMW managed to do it, I’m sure Audi did.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:00 am)Is it still GM’s policy of adding the cost of a replacement battery to the Volt’s cost? If so, another $8,000 of the $40,000 is for potentially replacing the battery before the warranty expires. I have not heard if GM has dropped this additional battery cost or not.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (11:00 am)Tag, the Volt will make retirement so much sweeter!
Besides that, when the price comes down and the Volt is affordable to the masses, it will prove to be a money saver. And make the purchase of solar panels for the house a good investment.
We all need our cars to get to work or where-ever we need to go. So it is a necessity. The question is how much does it cost to own, operate, and maintain it!
The Volt may end up more of an initial expense but over the long haul, it will pay back the owner in multiple ways. We need to think about the cost to each of us by the effects the burning fossil fuels: effect on our environment, to our health; to our economic well-being; to our safety (leads to war); and unnecessary dependence on foreign countries for our daily needs. The money the flows out of this country, estimated at 7 trillion dollars over ten years at the height of gasoline prices in the last year, would enable us to solve most of our domestic problems.
I am one of those retired individuals and surely appreciate your sense of humor on ‘ retirement never “pays you back” ‘ and as you said that incredible freedom it brings is wonderfully incredible ! As long as I can afford it.
Happy trails to you ’til me meet again.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (11:03 am)Our government does not have much experience in rewarding companies or individuals. I would not bet on any kind of reward. More likely they would see it as a justification for making the requirements much more stringent. IMO.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:04 am)Funny, this “Chevy Volt is a car for idiots” story made the best advertisement for the Volt as possible.
At my work, I heard people talking about “Audi president called some GM car a car for idiots; what is so special in that car?”.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:06 am)I agree. Maybe this will enable Lyle to be invited to drive the Audi EV before its release to the public. Never hurts to hope for such an event. It would give us all a better picture of where Audi is headed.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:08 am)LRGVProVolt,
Amen and congrats on your retirement as well. I’m still looking forward to a lot of “firsts” – one of which is buying a new vehicle! I’ve never understood why people complain about having “time on their hands”. It’s one of the best things I’ve ever had on my hands (g).
Be well and enjoy,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:08 am)Tag,
If you are using properly converted and filtered biodiesel (not raw veggie oil, there is a process to convert it… google or bing it) it requires the removal of the cap on the car and the fuel being poured in.
The diesel engine was INVENTED to run on veggie oil in the first place.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:11 am)Muddy,
Well THAT’S a conversion that will never catch on – where is the payoff??? (obviously just kidding).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:13 am)They must like the smell of diesel in Europe. He probably gets high on it. Give me a Volt so that I don’t have to smell noxious fumes while i”m stuck in a traffic jam caused by an accident currently caused by an ICE vehicle or driver!
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-2
Sep 8th, 2009 (11:13 am)He is out of touch. He just doesn’t get the fact that we don’t need to burn more coal or build more coal plants to power a whole fleet of EVs.
He really cares about the environment? Is that why he produces huge, over-powered vehicles that reek of waste? How condescending could he be? Douche Bag.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:14 am)Jackson,
The Cummins diesel in the new dodge pickups is ‘bluetec’ certified as are the diesels sold in NA from MB, VW, and BMW. They use a urea injection system in the exhaust to clean the output.
As I understand it the system works well.
But at that point we pretty much run out of diesels available here, sad really.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:18 am)Loboc, synthetic oil is still oil, it just has been ‘enhanced’.
It’s good stuff without a doubt, but it’s still oil, make no mistake.
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+6
Sep 8th, 2009 (11:24 am)That depends on whether or not they can get enough lanthanum to actually make those 18k Priuses.
And then there’s the risk that people won’t be interested in the Prius once they hear about a superior technology that’s actually on the road…
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (11:25 am)Sheltonjr,
To my knowledge Bio-Diesel is not made from corn. Ethanol is made from corn destined to be feed grain for farm animals. What is left of the corn product after the ethanol is extracted is still used as animal feedstock. Corn intended for human consumption is a different strain of corn and is not used for ethanol purposes. Farmers increased corn production for ethanol purposes and the amount available for human consumption did not significantly change. Futures trading did have an affect on the price of all corn products. But, my main point is that Bio-Diesel does not come from corn products at this time. Mostly soybeans and cooking grease account for most of the Bio-Diesel production.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:26 am)They could tighten the restrictions for everyone. And the company who already exceeded those standards would be at an instant advantage.
But I really think that converting their entire truck fleet would cost too much.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:29 am)It’s the once bitten twice shy syndrome without a doubt.
Americans got bitten BAD in the 70’s.
And now you have rich ‘rednecks’ with badly ‘hopped up’ pickups choking you. I can see how this perception has come about.
It’s an uphill battle without a doubt.
I need to replace my wife’s Subaru next year and I’d LOVE to keep AWD. An A4 with a small diesel would be very tempting to me. (And about the same expected price as the Volt that I won’t likely be able to get my hands on.) I’m now hearing BMW is NOT planning to bring the 320d (x) to NA. sigh…
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:32 am)Herm
You might have also mentioned that diesel does not age as well as gasoline in cooler climates. Even Bio-Diesel needs an additive to maintain its liquidity during really cold periods. If I were to chose a fuel for long term storage, it would not be diesel. Both gasoline and diesel can be treated to last longer in storage and in cold weather.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (11:34 am)Exactly my point…the new Diesels do not smell. Gas engines stink by comparison.
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+3
Sep 8th, 2009 (11:35 am)He is troubled that coal-fired power plants and related efficiency losses eventually release more CO2 than burning diesel
This is a ridiculous claim. First of all, it’s just plain wrong on its face. Yes generating electricity from coal produces significant pollution and CO2. But even in this extreme case, the increased efficiency of an EV drive train means that EVs will “produce half the emissions of gasoline powered automobiles”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car#Carbon_dioxide_emissions
Moreover, it’s completely and impossibly wrong if you look at the question from an economic standpoint. Here you start from the fact that electricity, unlike gasoline or diesel, cannot be stored. If not used it goes to ground. The second salient fact, which is frequently ignored, is that at most times of the day and for most of the year electrical baseline generation exceeds demand. So most of the time a good bit of the electricity we generate is wasted rather than used.
This means that to the extent that EVs use surplus electricity they do not increase any form of pollution one iota. Charged at night or other times of day when baseline generation exceeds demand, not only are they truly zero emission vehicles from well to wheel, but they impose no other costs on society. In effect the societal costs for powering EVs, until such time as baseline generation has to be increased, is effectively zero, and all the electricity consumed becomes what in economics is called “social surplus”.
From this perspective, until there are tens of millions of EVs on the road, if EVs are charged in an intelligent way then the increase in pollution will be zero or very close to zero. In any case the additional pollution attributable to EVs will be far less than that generated by diesel vehicles.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:37 am)You got that right Captain.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (11:41 am)MuddyRoverRob
I am one of those that had an Olds Diesel and I hated it. To many reasons to list so I will give just one.IT WAS GUTLESS, you could not spin tires on gravel.
But I would consider diesel now if it could deliver quite a bit more than a gas range extender.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (11:42 am)LRGVProVolt,
You obviously have not been near a new diesel.
Actually maybe you were, but just didn’t notice… they are very quiet and don’t smell these days.
I spent 5 weeks in Europe a few years back I drove a number of diesels, they were powerful, quiet and frugal on fuel. I’d like one.
Only old cars were at all noisy or smoky.
(Mostly old Benz’s that just wouldn’t die.)
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:45 am)You make some good points, but I would like to make some other points. Ethanol is not as good a fuel as a good quality bio-diesel. Assuming both are produced from renewable products and are food reducing neutral, I vote for bio-diesel. I agree the cost of a diesel engine and the added weight is a negative, but with bio-diesel many of the maintenance problems are not as severe and problematic. Bio-diesel does not lose its power versus regular diesel as does ethanol versus gasoline. Bio-diesel generally equals or betters regular diesel in fuel mileage. Bio-diesel engines run quieter, cooler and cleaner than regular diesel engines. Bio-diesel has so many advantages over regular diesel whereas ethanol only has one clear advantage – it is from renewable sources. The same for bio-diesel (primarily soybeans and cooking grease with algae starting to come into play). These are just some of my thoughts on the subject. But all in all, either is preferred over the original gasoline or regular diesel. If they could solve the loss of power and mileage from ethanol, it would be a different story.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:46 am)Regarding the studies comparing emissions between gas-powered engines and coal fired power plants, perhaps someone here has done a bit of research already that I was about to undertake:
The argument that a shift to electric cars would simply move emissions from the tailpipe to the coal-fired power plant seems like it is missing a huge chunk of information. Are these studies considering the energy it takes to remove oil from the ground, transport it to the refinery, refine, deliver to gas stations around the region, and THEN finally burn in an ICE? Likewise, do the studies consider the effort it takes to mine and transport coal? Or do they only consider the emissions from burning fuel in an ICE vs. burning coal at a power plant?
Even if all a switch to electric vehicles accomplishes is moving the emissions to hundreds of centralized locations instead of millions of mobile locations (which we all know to be untrue), it still is a vital step in resolving an issue.
Thanks!
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:46 am)The problem with CAFE standards is that in the absence of higher gasoline prices they tend to lower the cost of driving. Since the number of miles people drive is not fixed but variable, the miles driven go up as the cost of driving each mile goes down. Hence the savings attributable to CAFE tend to be canceled out by people driving more miles.
Definitely an unintended consequence supporting LauraM’s campaign for a gas tax.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (11:50 am)Making a diesel genset that meets clean air standards would probably add another $5K to the price of the Volt. Way too hefty a price to pay for something that won’t be used that frequently.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:56 am)Where I live ethanol made from brewery waste costs a buck a gallon. Unfortunately there are exactly two ethanol stations in the metro area. That’s two more ethanol stations than hydrogen stations but still not exactly a lot, especially when you think that the DOE is funding the installation of 1000 fast charging stations.
FWIW coal is the worst alternative from an environmental standpoint. This is just from memory, but I believe that a coal plant produces as much radioactive waste as a nuclear plant. Coal is nasty stuff though it does have the benefit of being our nasty stuff.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:56 am)The Saudi Arabian government is one of the most repressive regimes on the planet. They surpress their own citizens. They fund terrorists and spread hatred all over the world. Including Europe. And the higher the price of oil, the more repressive and aggressive they become.
I’m not happy with the Chinese or Bolivian governments. But almost anyone’s better than Saudi Arabia. At least IMHO.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:57 am)— He thinks the business case for an electric car is idiotic because buyers “cannot amortize their incremental fixed investment in the cost of the car to the savings in fuel consumptions.” —
Excuse my rant but AHH i’m sick of hearing this one!
A vehicle’s REAL cost, regardless of its power source, is the cost of the vehicle at purchase, minus the 5 or 10 year (or however many years old you choose to sell at) residual value. Also subtract all usage costs during that time, weather it be cost of electricity or cost of oil changes and fuel.
My weakness is the fact that i haven’t been to the future to see the value of a 3, 4, 5, or however old, Volt; but most of the intelligence that i can muster up within myself says E-REV’s and EV’s will have a more dependable and longer life than ICE cars for so many different reasons, and thus a greater residual value, and thus a lower ACTUAL cost than the tired short sighted statement of “You’ll never make up the cost difference in gas!!!!!!”
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:58 am)It has been my experience in dealing with upper management that they do not eat crow very well.
However, I think Mr. Nysschen shoud have held off on his interview with Lyle for at least a day and brought in or teleconferenced with Audi experts on BEV and E-REV type vehicles. There is no excuse for the president of a major car company to be so ill informed regarding a potential strong competitor.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (11:59 am)Why would it cost too much?
The tooling to build the 2-mode variant already exists.
They have already completed the shortbox crewcab model and the Tahoe versions.
All they would have to do in those models is put the Captain Jack interior in and sell them as ‘entry level’ work trucks.
Done.
They DO need to work on the longbox (8 foot bed) variant to be seen as a real work truck, but I can’t imagine there is all that much more engineering to be done there beyond that in the crewcab.
To make this move WOULD take some guts there is no doubt, but as long as they can sell at a profit at $25k the gas saving will sell them as fast as they can make them.
The monthly operating costs of a work truck include the payment AND the fuel costs. Show saving a couple hundred bucks a month on fuel and the trucks will move.
This might just move ME away from my beloved Land Rover as the camper hauler.
And yes give GM a big advantage.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:08 pm)The interviewer (Lyle) does seem more informed than the interviewee. But De Nysschen did make some interesting points. It still sounds to me that he is downplaying the Volt because Audi’s offerings are lacking in the areas the Volt competes.
Quote: “He claimed the information Audi has is that the range available with these batteries is that if you are in heavy stop and go traffic with max 10 mph speed you could get “a tolerable amount of range.” But he said if you are doing highway driving 30 miles each way, as he does personally, it is his opinion that “he would have to switch to the gas motor long before he gets to work,” and that “even after he gets to work the infrastructure isn’t there to charge the battery.”
So when Audi’s EV is revealed it will be interesting to see what range is claimed based on the KWh size of the batteries and their SOC range.
My understanding of his comment is that on the highway (US not German autobahn) he is implying the range for 8KWh is about 25 miles if not less or about 320Wh per mile or 3.125 miles per KWh.
It will also be interesting to see the price of Audi’s EV– oh yeh, they are just unveiling a concept not an actual product so no price available. How many years behind GM does that make them?
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:11 pm)Nice link Carcus1. The next thread should be a lot of fun!
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:15 pm)old man,
You definately had the worst example (possibly ever) of the diesel engine.
I once had a horrible hamburger at a fast food place, the lettuce was brown, it was burnt and the bun was hard. But you know, I’ve had really GOOD burgers at other places, it didn’t turn me against all burgers for all time.
The Golf TDI diesel I rented in Paris would ’squeek’ the tires on dry roads in 3 gears… Quiet, lots of go and incredible economy… 650 km over two days on half a tank of diesel.
It completely sold my wife and I on modern diesels
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:19 pm)You got that right. Next one should be a biggie.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:24 pm)Most stations switch to winter diesel as the weather turns, my local Shell certainly does.
No fuel is really good for long term storage!
But there are stabilizers for both gas and diesel fuels if your useage patterns require it, mine don’t.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:26 pm)Right on.
Canola being the main cooking oil.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:28 pm)DonC,
A buck a gallon is really cheap hootch! Can you bring your own wooden barrel?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:30 pm)Only blended synthetic has ‘real’ oil in it. Pure synthetic is made from non-oil stocks.
“Synthetic oil is a lubricant consisting of chemical compounds which are artificially made (synthesized) from compounds other than crude oil (petroleum). ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil
The Germans were making and using synthetic oil, lubes, and fuels during WWII because they could not get petroleum. And now the knuckleheads are touting diesel as the win. Go figure.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (12:37 pm)I certainly understand the once bitten twice shy issue.
My turbodiesel powered Volkswagen Jetta TDI had a wonderful engine. I won’t be buying a Volkswagen again — it wasn’t the engine’s fault, it was ZF’s fault for building an unrepairable transmission, and Volkswagen’s fault for using it.
Driving a modern diesel is a very pleasant experience. The engine sounds a little lazy (because it runs at a lower RPM than a gas engine doing a similar job), but it’ll really buckle down and pull. And it does it smoothly and quietly, even it it sounds more ping-ey and less put-ey than a gasoline engine.
In other words, I’d love to buy another diesel car, but it won’t be coming from VAG. It’ll have to be built by Honda, or some other manufacturer with a reputation for boring dependability. But I don’t do much long-distance driving these days, so a hybrid or electric-ish car is a much better match for a large number of short low-speed trips than my diesel.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:40 pm)Don C.
Well put.
We often forget that it is non-peak electricity we are talking about.
If electric vehicles become such a burden on the grid that we need more power plants, we should be so lucky.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:41 pm)Good job Lyle.
I think Johan’s heart is in the right place but he’s a little misguided (and kind of old school). I think he needs to broaden his horizons a bit. Hopefully your 30minute conversation with him helped with that.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:43 pm)DonC,
You can’t seriously think that it costs GM that much ($5k) more to put a different model engine per unit into a car?
They already have existing euro-certified turbo diesels that ‘could’ be transplanted into the Volt/Ampera chassis without much difficulty. They would likely bolt right up to the generator.
I truly believe the real hold up is the leftover bias against diesels in NA.
I think they WILL land in the car in Gen 2.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Europe has public transportation. They do not drive as much as we do here. In fact, most do not even have a car, or there is exactly one car per family used occasionally. They live in cities, not suburbs. Population density is much higher. They work close to where they live. In short, Europe could survive $8 gasoline because they are essentially immune.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:44 pm)I agree. I think having electricity be the final mechanism that makes the wheels move is the best approach. Now, how you create that electricity can vary over time, coming from several sources. In the end, when cheap renewably electricity is available, our cars will be ready.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:49 pm)Don C,
You and I are on the same page.
But I didn’t know a coal plant produced radioactive waste.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (12:50 pm)That’s gelling, not aging.
Speculation: I’d bet that the summer diesel you’re referring to will be fine — next spring.
Fact: As you probably know, fuel sellers change the formulation of diesel based on the local season in any particular part of the country. So, whenever fall happens for you, they switch over to the cold-weather formulation which gels at a lower temperature, but also delivers slightly worse MPG. This can be kind of a PITA if you’re a TDI-wielding hypermiler who can drive halfway up the east coast on one tank of fuel — you could probably fill up on Charleston, South Carolina diesel where it’s spring, and then drive to Pittsburg PA where it’s still winter… Starting the car the next morning might be challenging.
Then again, my diesel-powered vehicle had an evaporative emissions control system(fact), which probably does a lot to keep fuel from going stale(speculation).
Fact: Also, biodiesel is much more susceptible to gelling than dino-diesel. Some biodiesel mixes can gel as high as 50 degrees F. That’s not a great situation if you’re a purist and want your car to be as vegan as you are. The quality of biodiesel can vary widely, and the Volkswagen TDI engines require a fairly high-quality fuel — so it’s important to get the right stuff for it. I had every intention of running biodiesel in my Jetta, but I could only buy B5, which has less biodiesel in it than conventional gasoline has Ethanol — the constraints on my life at the time just didn’t allow me to do the biodiesel thing right.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:52 pm)Based on battery progress for the last 100 years I would estimate 10% improvement in 10 years. What is troublesome is how easy nowadays to fool people. Most here have little or zero knowledge in math, physics, chemistry. So they read PR stunts and believe, swapping science for SciFi.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (12:54 pm)Well we had better get to work on immunizing ourselves, because it’s coming. A lot sooner than many of us think, IMHO.
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-4
Sep 8th, 2009 (12:56 pm)What is bizarre? The guy said obvious things: it is plain stupid to pay Cadillac price for a Corolla car. Very simple to comprehend IMO.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (12:57 pm)Yeah, “Any ink is good ink”, LOL. Thanks Johan.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:00 pm)If people bought cars based upon the “business case”, everybody would drive a Hyundai Rios or a Chevy Aveo, and there would be no Audi. I know that others have said this over and over, but it bears repeating again.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:04 pm)Nonsense. Electricity is not wasted, it is simply not generated. When consumption is low during the night turbines are simply shutdown. Which means less pollution. “Goes to ground”, jeez, when do get this crap from? Did you attend any Physics classes at all?
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:06 pm)Using Mr. Nysschen logic, diesel’s business case in Europe can also be labelled “idiotic” except for government intervention. European countries tax the living daylights out of standard gasoline and have relatively low tax for diesel. This makes it a lot easier to “amortize their incremental fixed investment in the cost of the car to the savings in fuel consumptions.” In general, high fuel cost is the driver that pushes efficiency in Europe. It takes a lot of miles to financially justify a diesel engine in the USA.
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (1:08 pm)I’m hardly an expert, but it seems to me be that, given current technology, we should use natural gas wherever we can. Not coal. It’s not perfect, but we have the reserves, and it’s a lot cleaner than coal. It’s more expensive than coal, but it’s cheaper than cleaning up coal.
Ideally, we could take care of all of our needs with wind, solar, biofuels, and geothermal. Etc. But we need a bridge fuel in the meantime. And natural gas seems to be the best thing available right now.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:10 pm)I calculated once energy losses for electricity transport vs oil pipe over thousands of miles. Oil pipe benefits are enormous. Waste is order of magnitude smaller. That is the main reason why oil / natural gas are always transported to the final destination, and only then converted to electricity.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:13 pm)Exactly. We’re working on making clean electricity cheaper and more widespread. And to take full advantage of that, we need electric cars. It’s not like we’re can switch fleets overnight. If we want a significant portion of our fleet to be electric in 20 years, we need to start right now.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:16 pm)Must be…’cause it disappeared!!! Hehe.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:20 pm)Assuming you are right there then the ten year point from now will be about the time where costs and returns will start to make real sense, because it’s getting close now.
As I see it if the ‘low temp’ sodium sulfur batteries hit the ’shelves’ by then they will be a cost effective storage medium. Otherwise Li-ion packs will have dropped a lot more in cost by then.
The combination of a solar ‘base load’ array and a wind turbine the catch extra power when it’s available should support most homes requirements if sized properly.
There IS a payback period without a doubt and although currently that period is still too long for most people to implement a system every price drop makes that time period shorter.
I see it as very possible that my Volt will charge fully off grid by the time I get it. I do have the advantage of being in a fairly windy place so turbines have pretty decent ‘uptime’ here.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:23 pm)The ‘long tailpipe’ angle being played when they are about to rollout a BEV…
Keep up RVD… It’s a fast room.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:29 pm)LauraM
Like a lot of the renewables, fossil based natural gas has to be “piped” from the source to the users. This brings up the same issues as with solar and wind farms, doesn’t it?
Just wondering.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (1:30 pm)Hello.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:36 pm)It’s not just about MONEY. It’s about a fun to drive, silent, instant torque, no gas using, energy independent, screw the oil companies, slap in the face to greed!
Oh yeah…and good for the environment. The coal burning logic is entirely faulty. The ENTIRE northwestern US uses 95% hydroelectric power for the utilities. That equals ZERO emissions. The rest of the US utility grid will only get cleaner.
Some people can’t see a great thing when it slaps them in the face…
What a moron.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:41 pm)The Corolla is an E-REV? If not then the Volt has more value in common with the Cadillac.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:42 pm)Absolutely!
Hence why even though Johan comes across as a bit of a tool I’d be interested in an A4 with a 2.0 diesel and quattro.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:47 pm)I can’t seem to post anything today. Moderation. Hmmm … What am I doing wrong? My links or what?
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:47 pm)Read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_following_power_plant
It depends on the type of power plant.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:50 pm)I stand corrected.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (1:52 pm)LauraM
The really exciting point (to me) is that this plugin movement has been building for years, and is now only a matter of months away! We’ll see SO many companies providing SO many options, it just makes me giggle. That reminds me, I still miss statik (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (2:00 pm)RVD,
The parallel with Europe falls apart when you consider the distances traveled here in the USA. We have pockets of population that is just as dense, but hundreds of miles between them.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 8th, 2009 (2:13 pm)Muddy,
In a very left handed way the impending increase in the cost of electricity here in PA will actually shorten the time it’ll take to recoup the cost of installing panels. No appreciable wind available on my site, so solar is pretty much “it”. Technically, I’m over the Marcellus gas deposit, but I doubt that my neighbors would approve of the drilling. Solar I think they could live with.
RVD (above) talks like battery progress has been linear when it’s becoming exponential.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+2
Sep 8th, 2009 (2:18 pm)Muddy,
LOL, the whole place seems well-tuned today – except for a few sour notes. Rashiid is particularly sharp, as you mentioned.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 8th, 2009 (2:18 pm)Yeah, what link? I scrolled back up until I’m getting a headache, and I can’t find it. Can you post it again? My curiosity is killing me, LOL.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (2:22 pm)Maybe the Audi satellite is jamming your transmissions.
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+1
Sep 8th, 2009 (2:24 pm)You get my vote for the most generous comment of the day.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (2:27 pm)Loboc,
Where in the country are you that you have so much E85 available??? You’re really blessed. 15% gas and 85% renewable, only straight electrons are better. I know it effects the range a bit, but you’ll go a LONG way on a Volt tank of E85 and use 15% the gas. Wow.
Congrats,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 8th, 2009 (2:31 pm)I’m probably not the right person to answer this, but solar and wind farms don’t use pipes. Oil and natural gas do. But I don’t think we would need to build new pipes for new powerplants. I believe the infrastructure is largely already in place. We’d probably need to build new plants and a few extra pipes, but I don’t think it would require a major new investment. I haven’t heard anything about it either way, so I’m assuming if it did need a major new investment, I would have heard.
As far as I understand it, natural gas has three major advantages over solar and wind. First, it’s much cheaper given current technologies. Second, you can burn it anytime you want–so you don’t have the storage problems you currently have with solar and wind. Third, you can build the plant wherever you want, so you don’t have to transmit the energy over long distances.
Of course, all of the above issues will hopefully be mitigated and even eliminated as the technology progress. But, I believe that, right, now natural gas is our best solution.
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Sep 8th, 2009 (2:45 pm)LauraM
I know electrons don’t need actual PIPES, that’s why the word was in quotes. The power lines from solar and wind farms are their “pipes” that need to traverse significant distances – just as natural gas does. I’m with you though on the hope that technology will step up with some solutions.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Sep 8th, 2009 (2:47 pm)It is just about money, when its out of your price range. Unfortunately price is the #1 factor in a car purchase, everything else is secondary.
If you have $10 in your pocket and something costs $20, all the features in the world don’t matter.
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