Sep 04

Hyundai i10 Electric Car Unveiled

 

Add another to the growing list. It really looks like this idea of driving without gas is taking off.

Hyundai Motors of Korea has unveiled its new EV called the i10 ahead of its being shown at the Frankfurt Motor Show later this month. The company has apparently been working on the vehicle “for months.”

The i10 is another example of an electric urban or city vehicle, and is a diminutive 5-door 5-seat hatchback.

It has a 49 kw (66 hp) electric motor powered by a 16 kwh lithium-ion battery. The battery cells are provided by LG Chem. Driving range is 99 miles and top speed is 81 mph. 0 to 60 time is a rather leisurely 15 seconds.

The battery has an intrinsic liquid thermal management system, and the car will offer an 85% 15-minute quick charge option at 413 V.

Hyundai will begin low volume fleet leasing of the vehicle in Korea starting in 2010 and will go into full global production in 2012.

At this point, the battery for the vehicle remains prohibitively expensive, forcing Hyundai to offer these vehicles as lease-only for the foreseeable future. In fact, the price of the pack is greater than the cost of an entire conventional gas-powered i10.

It is being reported that the 16 kwh battery pack costs 10,000 euro (£8730) which translates to $14,260 ($890/kwh). This should give us a good idea of the Volt’s battery cost since it is the same size, uses the same supplier’s cells, and also has an intrinsic temperature management system.

It also illustrates how much range can be squeezed out of a pack this size in a lightweight pure EV. Energy consumption would allow 7.8 miles per kwh assuming a conventional 80% charge window in the pack. The Volt will achieve 5 miles per kwh.

This car also marks a departure from Hyundai’s previous plans to move to hydrogen fuel cells as their next step.

“We were going to do hybrid cars as a bridge before hydrogen technology really took off,” said an unnamed Hyundai source. “But we recognize there is a future now in electric technology.”

Source (Autocar)

This entry was posted on Friday, September 4th, 2009 at 8:40 pm and is filed under BEV, Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 169


  1. 1
    zipdrive

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (8:43 pm)

    And the world of motoring is changing before our eyes. What an exciting time to be alive!


  2. 2
    omnimoeish

     

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (8:54 pm)

    “We were going to do hybrid cars as a bridge before hydrogen technology really took off,” said an unnamed Hyundai source. “But we recognize there is a future now in electric technology.”

    Wow, what was your first clue? 15 minutes gives you 85 miles, that’s not bad.


  3. 3
    hayley

     

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (8:56 pm)

    Charging at 413V…. I’ve never even heard of 413V

    “At this point, the battery for the vehicle remains prohibitively expensive, forcing Hyundai to offer these vehicles as lease-only for the foreseeable future.” – Wow, does this sound familiar…


  4. 4
    Mark Z

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (9:02 pm)

    This is interesting data, especially with the comparisons of the VOLT. I wouldn’t lease one for freeway use, but it’s a great design for smoggy downtown city driving.


  5. 5
    ClarksonCote

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (9:08 pm)

    I agree, a nice city car, but I’ll still wait for my Volt. Range anxiety is very real in my opinion, especially here in the spacious USA.

    I’m a little concerned though about Lyle’s post a while back regarding limited roll-out in 2010 and only in certain geographic areas. My guess is central NY will not be one of those areas.

    Perhaps I need to trade my Civic in for a Prius in the meantime. :( My electric bicycle works well too for avoiding gasoline, but its range is much less than the Hyndai i10′s ;)


  6. 6
    ClarksonCote

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (9:15 pm)

    Hmmm, 413V is interesting. I did some quick Googling but most articles were for this car, and only some abstract papers regarding a 413V power source.

    413V is conveniently 2*208V (well, almost). I wonder if there’s a way to double up 208V 3-phase similar to how you can double up 110V to get 220V?

    I expect to get laughed at for posing that possibility. Don’t tell anyone I have an ECE degree, I might get the diploma taken away. ;)


  7. 7
    texas

     

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (9:16 pm)

    Hahahaha. Hydrogen. That’s a good one.

    Yeah, you can tell the executive management is clueless about the electrification revolution. They just ripped one of their econoboxes off the line, did a conversion and there you go. Wow! A whole few months of work? Looks like it. I guess we can mark Hyundai off the list of market leaders for the next few decades. Hydrogen? lol.


  8. 8
    Red HHR

     

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (9:19 pm)

    Been working on it for months…
    So what will it be in a couple of years?

    Nice car for 14k, battries not included…
    Sounds about right!

    Really though, make it a two seat convertable with trunk!


  9. 9
    texas

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (9:19 pm)

    It’s more than the initial expense of the battery. They are also worried about the life of it and thus the warrantee costs.


  10. 10
    Roy

     

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (9:21 pm)

    Interesting how battery prices are shifting. I am sure that I read somewhere on this site that GM is paying $500/kWh for LG Chem’s batteries, but the cost is significantly more if you include the packaging, cooling system, and battery management system.
    The price quoted here is for the complete battery pack, and unless GM has figured out how to do the packaging for significantly less, then this is a good estimate of the Volt’s cost.
    What I meant about shifting is that traditionally battery cost was always just for the raw batteries, but now that it is recognized that the packaging and BMS are a significant part of the cost, we are seeing more prices quoted for the complete package.

    I think they should choose a little more powerful motor for a little better acceleration. Can’t imagine that would increase the price much.


  11. 11
    newbie

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (9:22 pm)

    another customer for PORTABLE GENERATOR.


  12. 12
    RB

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (9:28 pm)

    Range of 99 mi is good enough to get most people to work and back.


  13. 13
    EVNow

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (9:40 pm)

    Hmmmm … I’ve significant doubts about 16kwh/99 miles. Unless this is at some constant 30 mph in the lab – not a cycle approved by a regulatory body like EPA.

    The battery price also looks too high. Nissan claims less than $500 / kwh.

    http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/14/at-witz-end-turning-over-a-new-nissan-leaf/

    “At $500 per kWh, my battery would cost $12,000,” he tells us. “It will be a lot less than that.”


  14. 14
    omegaman66

     

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (10:50 pm)

    Nice to see more ev’s getting on the production line. I wonder how long it takes to charge at 220. If you are at home the need for a 15 minute charge will not be that great but on the road 15 minute charge would be awesome. Of course it will be a long long time before you start having options to charge at gas stations/conv. stores or fast food outlets.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (10:55 pm)

    Just out of curiosity, will Lyle be attending the Frankfurt Auto Show with high-def video cam at the ready?


  16. 16
    Van

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (10:56 pm)

    Yes, Lyle, the battery cost seems out of line high, given the statement that the Volt battery costs “hundreds” less than $1000 per kWh. But given the expected cost of the Volt near $40,000, the $14,000 pack seems in the ball park.

    And Lyle, your experience with the Mini E, which actually gets about 70% of the claim, would suggest the i10 will get about 70 miles. But even that is dubious, with 50 miles being more likely.


  17. 17
    jake

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (11:07 pm)

    For the 16kWh/99 miles, it’s the same thing claimed by the iMIEV on the Japanese cycle. Obviously it’s not on the standard EPA cycle since this isn’t for the US (it’s for Korea).

    The battery cost is a little on the high side if you include all the packaging, but Nissan’s claim of less than $500/kWh isn’t that typical esp for newly developed batteries.

    Tesla’s laptop cells are ~$400/kWh (maybe even less), but they sell a replacement pack for $36k (53kWh) or ~$700/kWh, so with packaging it might not be that far off (though to be fair, this is Tesla’s price to the consumer and not the actual cost to Tesla). Laptop cells should be relatively cheap compared to the other chemistries since they are made in the largest quantities.

    The cheapest cells I have seen are li-poly cells from China (~$300/kWh) and that doesn’t include wiring the cells together and packaging.


  18. 18
    JB

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (11:24 pm)

    “diminutive 2-door 5-seat hatchback.” – am I missing something? It looks like a 4 door hatchback to me.


  19. 19
    Gary

     

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (11:33 pm)

    From what the article said, it seems to be only in Korea in 2010… the soonest we’d see it is 2012.


  20. 20
    Loboc

     

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (11:39 pm)

    Maybe it was a typo. It’s actually a 5-door, 2-seat hatchback :)


  21. 21
    JB

     

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (11:46 pm)

    LOL…it does look like it’s on the small side :)


  22. 22
    Dave K.

     

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (11:58 pm)

    Here come the trucks. Good going for Hyundai. Can’t help but notice the European code hood seam. Next step the EV Tucson?

    =D~


  23. 23
    Loboc

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (11:59 pm)

    Bring on more electrics!

    Every one that is announced is another validation that the Volt is a step in the correct direction. (Of course, most people here are already aboard that ship.)

    Anybody can make an announcement. Until Lyle drives one and reports back, it doesn’t exist to me!

    Oh, did I mention that I was born in the show-me state of Missouri?


  24. 24
    ClarksonCote

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    Sep 4th, 2009 (11:59 pm)

    Yes, it sounds like 2012 for the Hyundai here.

    Looking at my post, I realize I wasn’t clear… I was referring to the Volt when I was talking about 2010. I need the Volt and the EREV experience. :)


  25. 25
    GXT

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:41 am)

    GM was the one that decided to make a ‘dedicated’ vehicle and an EREV instead of a BEV. They were the ones that added the complexity and the delay. I don’t see why you would exclude others just because they took the more efficient route. It isn’t like the Volt/Cruze is THAT far removed from the same criticism.

    The more important part is that Hyundai apparently believes the cost of the battery (which should be similar to the Volt) is “prohibitively expensive”. Even starting with an less-expensive platform, no ICE components, only a couple months of dev, and waiting an extra year or two, Hyundai apparently doesn’t believe this product is currently feasible given the price.

    Perhaps someone should tell Hyundai that this is about PR, not the vehicle itself.


  26. 26
    jeffhre

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:54 am)

    I’m sure the motor is plenty durable, it’s likely just a matter of getting more power through the IGBT’s to accelerate quicker, which would require even larger batteries! And a slightly larger motor would add very little or nothing to the cost, plus would take nothing from the efficiency of the vehicle unlike a larger ICE motor. In the case of better acceleration, it’s all about the batteries!!!


  27. 27
    jeffhre

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:01 am)

    The hatch is considered the fifth door since the trunk is so small you can simply step past it to get into the rear seats :) :) :)


  28. 28
    Michael C. Robinson

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:03 am)

    Hyundai didn’t say that Hydrogen is a joke and frankly hydrogen has many advantages over a battery electric vehicle. The first blatantly obvious advantage is range. You never hear about a hydrogen car having a range of less than 150 miles and the range has gotten as high as 500 miles. The Chevy Equinox used in project driveway has a 150 mile range I believe and GM has cut stack size in half and doubled the power. So an Equinox built today will be better and cheaper. Another huge advantage of hydrogen is that you can
    talk about fueling times of 3 minutes. Last but not least, hydrogen is a domestic fuel that can be produced in a growing number of ways.


  29. 29
    Michael C. Robinson

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:12 am)

    There is nothing toxic in a hydrogen fuel cell.

    There is nothing toxic in a hydrogen fuel cell.

    Lithium ION batteries are more likely to be thrown out than recycled.
    I put my worn out laptop batteries in a special place so that they go
    to the computer junk table at the dump in hopes that they will get
    recycled.

    hydrogen is not toxic.

    hydrogen is not toxic.

    More large batteries means that there will be a huge demand soon for Lithium Carbonate and possibly Cobalt as well which will likely cause supply problems. EVs cannot depend on precious metals
    the way that most of the prototypes today do.

    Fortunately in the fuel cell arena, it is possible to use carbon instead of platinum. There are ways to make fuel cells using
    non precious materials yet our best batteries use the precious
    metals Lithium and Cobalt.


  30. 30
    Darius

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:25 am)

    Hydrogen is domestic since it will made from natural gas. Why not combust CNG directly without unnecessary complications.
    Hydrogen is a joke.


  31. 31
    sudhaman

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (4:08 am)

    this is goanna be a flop. hyundai will not succeed in EV market. the i10 is too small car and it will be difficult to put the battery inside that.


  32. 32
    Dave K.

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (4:22 am)

    Hyundai will succeed. Strength in the truck market. Ability to keep costs (and pricing) low. Very good warranty terms. Ever increasing quality ratings. Looks like a winner to me.

    =D~


  33. 33
    Gsned57

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:02 am)

    I’m a little excited that it doesn’t look like a prius. Don’t get me wrong I have nothing against the prius and I actually don’t care for the look of this car but I expected Hyundai to go the Honda rout (I’m talking about the insight for those who are design blind) and make something that is nearly indistinguishable from a prius.


  34. 34
    Herm

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:13 am)

    The cost of the battery is prohibitive in an econobox but not in an upscale luxury sedan.

    This is the first time an LG battery is mentioned using almost 4C 15 min charging.

    Its not clear how they are achieving 99 miles out of a 16kwh pack, either it is at low speeds (20mph avg and under) or the reported number is actually “usable capacity”. I am leaning to the 16kwh is “usable capacity”, wich brings the cost more in line with the $12k pack the Volt uses. Perhaps Kia is not getting a volume price break from LG on the batteries.

    This car may sell for under $25k


  35. 35
    Herm

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:23 am)

    15sec 0-60 mph is perfectly adequate for a city car, this is a very small car designed for driving in crowded streets.

    It was pretty well understood that the Volts total battery cost is around $12k ($500 per kwh for the cells plus 30% for assembly into pack), so this new cost number is about 20% higher.


  36. 36
    Herm

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:36 am)

    you dont see many people worrying that gasoline or diesel is toxic.

    BYD batteries are even safe to eat, witness the CEO taking a sip of the electrolyte.


  37. 37
    Herm

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:41 am)

    The BYD F6DM also uses a 16kwh pack plus a range extender engine, it sells for $16k in China… apparently they are spending a lot less on the batteries.


  38. 38
    Starcast

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:48 am)

    ” 0 to 60 time is a rather leisurely 15 seconds.”

    LOL


  39. 39
    Jim I

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:59 am)

    nasaman will HATE those tiny little wheels………… :-)

    This is a commuter car, plain and simple.

    But don’t count out Hyundai. They make some good vehicles with great warranties, and at decent pricing. And the quality is there.

    We have had great service from our 2001 Santa Fe.

    I am not sure about the 413V charging plans. That means charging stations would have to be built. 240V is available in homes, and would be much easier to implement.

    JMHO


  40. 40
    LandKurt

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (7:01 am)

    electrons are not toxic.

    cobalt is not used in Volt batteries.

    While cobalt is used in consumer electronics lithium ion batteries, it’s not common in electric car batteries. Probably because of the whole bursting into flames phenomenon. Volt will use lithium manganese chemistry (LiMn2O4). Some other cars use lithium iron phosphate, (LiFePO4).

    Sure, a lot of people don’t recycle small lithium batteries, but what makes you think that large car lithium batteries won’t be recycled just as often as current lead acid car batteries (almost 100% recycling).


  41. 41
    Herm

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (7:18 am)

    Its amazing how people have different tastes.. I’m excited that it has lockable doors and you can get in from out of the rain.. the four wheels is a plus also.


  42. 42
    tom

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (7:29 am)

    Lyle doesn’t have to work as hard any more, just every other day cut and paste the next story for a brand new EV being released.

    I think there are enough diminutive models out there. I’d like a few more SUV / Pickup truck models (both BEV and EREV). You know a lot of these folks only drive 40 miles a day also and don’t tow boats. And many more of them have the ability to plug in during the day and extend their daily AER.

    More importantly replacing larger vehicles that burn more gas justifies a higher investment and should justify higher tax credits.


  43. 43
    JEC

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (7:30 am)

    ClarksonCote

    Since the 220V in your home service panel is just the phase to phase voltage, you not really doubling up, or at least thats not a correct technical description.

    Some people may even refer to this as 2-phase power, which again really is just a phase to phase relationship.

    An example of things that can get you in trouble with doing your own house wiring is wiring an “edison circuit”. This allows you to use a single 14/3 (15 amp circuit), to distribute power as two separate sources. The savings are in the copper, since you can share the neutral with an edison circuit. The hot wires are each connected to opposite phases in your service panel. The real trick is that you MUST wire each hot in the correct location in you panel. If you actually took your service panel apart, you would see the bus bars stagger the two phases. If you incorrectly wire a edison circuit you just created a possible fire hazard, since now the neutral will need to carry twice the rating.

    The interesting thing, is that the neutral in an edison circuit actually would carry ZERO current, when both circuits are pulling maximum current. This is because they are 180 out of phase, and the current is running phase to phase, and their is no neutral current (This is the case as long as both circuits are balanced at any current)

    /Just saying…and I am not even sure why I said this after re-reading my post and wondering where the heck I was going with this.


  44. 44
    JEC

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (7:36 am)

    RB

    You just started one of those “range” threads. We all know that 99 mi. is not OUR range.

    I feel another “ground hog day” is coming…

    Oh, and range axiety…PLEASE do not say that this will be another range anxiety thread! If you feel that the range will cause you gas, then do not buy it. If range does not bother you, then buy it. END OF THIS THREAD.


  45. 45
    Daraktig

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (7:38 am)

    Another EV convert and another company that has dropped the Hydrogen Farce from their future vehicle plans. I say HOORAY!

    At this point it may be easier to list the companies who are NOT coming out with an EV or EREV:

    1. Audi – from the posts here yesterday

    2. Mazda – allcarselectric says no


  46. 46
    JEC

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (7:42 am)

    I think they plan to strap the battery on top, but they need to add the luggage racks first.


  47. 47
    JEC

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (7:50 am)

    Random thought of the day….

    So, when will you start seeing homes being built with an integrated charging cell in garages? (I am sure they already do this for niche apps, but what about for general populace?)

    If you plan your electrical service correctly, it would be so much more cost effective to put in. Since the whole of the issue is about POWER, you need to bring the mains directly to your garage area. You really want to have full service available in your garage, since in the future (near?) you may need 100, 200 amps (more?) to fast charge. This would eliminate much of the wiring and therefore the cost, since you wiring path is as short as possible.

    Now, the issue is if your son/daughter decide they need to quick charge the family cruiser, and you want to run your shop lather at the same time, you need to have sufficient power available.

    Today homes are built with typically 150/200/250 amp services (at least were I live), but this may increase in the future.

    …random thought generator…deactivated…


  48. 48
    Dan Petit

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (7:53 am)

    I see this application of the LG battery as a really smart partition for the study of local commuter wear patterns on the battery. Those leases would assure that the cells will be available, in continuing-OEM-optioned (1, 2, & 3 year leases) (recallable for study-examination at any time), for close examinations of all kinds, at those segment-continuable time spans, for instance.
    This would be a really a smart thing to do, because once a car is in America, it would certainly be driven to the max of the published AER.

    Over in Asia, Asians tend to comply with needed limitations of specifications more than Americans, it seems to me. And, destinations there are far more provincially-close by.
    Here, we want to “go where no man has gone before”. (Resulting jokes are welcome to follow).

    Those leases are a really smart thing to do. This may be, in part, because LG Chem (et al), can attempt to expand and to continue to position itself for product improvements, as well as set up the possibilities to cause “field research” (“ongoing monitoring” of its own), in order to establish closer field baseline usage and longevity patterns.
    All manufacturers would be very wise to do that, and, call it a “research lease” (which is very heavily discounted by, say, 95%, or, $75 a month) for strict usage within needed study parameters, with required confidentiality of course.


  49. 49
    RB

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:04 am)

    JEC —> it’s fine, was just an observation.


  50. 50
    JEC

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:10 am)

    RB,

    I know, but you know where this goes.

    /Don’t follow the rabbit.


  51. 51
    Dan Petit

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:15 am)

    Post script.
    One other idea just came to mind. What if LG wants to buy back your Volt battery residual value for these little “provincial commuters” for back there in Korea. That might prove to be a terrific idea as a “second life” for a smaller, lighter car to be propelled by Volt batteries falling below specs, yet might be still perfectly serviceable for a few years in that application.

    **NOW IF ONLY THAT MIGHT HELP LOWER COSTS SOMEHOW!**

    (If only we could get Gen1 down to a “turn-key” of about 38,500 dollars before incentives!!)


  52. 52
    JEC

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:17 am)

    Dan,

    They will be able to collect data, which is good, but they really want to sell the car. I think data collection will happen whether the battery is leased on sold out-right.

    Leasing strikes a bone, with many. I am neutral, and would lease if it made economic sense. I drive my cars from cradle to grave today, and have never leased a car, but for the battery I would consider it.

    This is also different than the EV1 lease, which was a lease of the car, not just the battery. So, even if they recalled my battery, I could potentially find my own battery source (I know it would be tough to find an OTS battery that would fit, but again, I would strap it to the top if I had to).


  53. 53
    fred

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:26 am)

    Getting near the end of year 2009, Three more years to go before all the electrics get dumped on the market. I wish someone would sell an electric soon. I want one for work commuting but if it takes too long to get these to market I might be retired by then. Then I won’t need a vehicle at all. And why are all the jap products being released 2012?. To put the final nail in Government Motors? Looks like Ford will be the last domestic manufacturer.


  54. 54
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:26 am)

    Darackig
    Audi actually IS coming out with an EV. Amazing, but true.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  55. 55
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:28 am)

    JEC
    Answer: after a critical mass of EV’s are on the road.
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    /random answer generator off
    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  56. 56
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:30 am)

    Dan,
    Electric companies are already voicing interest in after-use large format batteries for use in large bldgs.
    Just a thought.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  57. 57
    CDAVIS

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:32 am)

    Hyundai Said (from Lyle’s article):
    “But we recognize there is a future now in electric technology”
    ——–

    Dear Hyundai,

    You guys are idiots for joining the Electric Car Revolution. That is good news for Audi because now the only enlightened major car making companies remaining are Audi and Mazda.

    Because Mazda is likely not to be as resolute as Audi in ignoring misguided growing consumer interest in electric cars, Mazda will in time also join the idiots. That will leave Audi as the gas/diesel champions!

    Audi will be known as the car company that is most Pro-Environment and Pro-Electric Utility because Audio will be the only car maker left that is 100% committed to not transferring tail pipe emissions to power generating facilities and in turn Audi will be the only car maker left not further straining an already strained electric grid.

    Your idiocy is our gain.

    Best Regards,
    Johan de Nysschen
    Audi / President

    Obvious Disclosure: This is a pretend letter in jest not written by Mr. Nysschen…but probably not far off from what Nysschen is thinking.


  58. 58
    Tagamet

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:32 am)

    JEC
    Agreed about the range of battery lease opinions. If I have to lease the battery for the Volt – no Volt for me. One of the very few deal breakers for me.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  59. 59
    Roy

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:34 am)

    It would not require larger batteries. The Volt motor is bigger and more powerful.


  60. 60
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:35 am)

    If Lyle needs a baggage carrier, I’m available.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  61. 61
    Dan Petit

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:35 am)

    JEC,
    Absolutely true. For you and I, leasing isn’t at all in the deal. Just for OEM research for the rest of us to have a better product to own and to be able to resell at our option.
    Also, a research type of lease like Lyle is doing, and, without the intent of ownership, where you would just be essentially “trying out the car”. I think BMW was brilliant in doing that with Lyle, because Lyle’s scientific fairness is so good, it was how BMW was able to help us all become more realistically educated as to the limitations of BEV, and, getting more of us to recognize the need for E-REV.
    *******************************************
    *OUTRAGEOUSLY-SMART BMW!! *
    *******************************************

    Also, unless the battery specs were part of a 10 year 150,000 mile longevity situation, feasibility issues come up.
    If I am able to get a Volt, I would want to leave about 5 years, 60,000 or more miles available OEM-specification battery functioning left for a subsequent owner in a transferable warranty where they could easily get a 4 year loan on it.


  62. 62
    Herm

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:43 am)

    it may be the range if all you ever get up to is 20-30 mph, like most driving in Japan, India and China.. they seldom get on a highway in those countries and the traffic congestion is bad. The acceleration is also fine at 15 sec 0-60.


  63. 63
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:46 am)

    Correction: Frankfort is out because I don’t have a passport. SIGH (lol).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  64. 64
    Dan Petit

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:54 am)

    Hey Tag,
    To somehow help GM and us get the “turn-key” “drive-away” bottom line costs down, even just 5%. That would help just tremendously. Just to have bottom line cost of $38,500 (less further incentives) would mean that so many more of us would have a clearly-comfortable margin to buy it.
    Perhaps utilities might be more interested in a “gently-used” Volt battery, and, could work a deal with GM to have the “first right of refusal” on your carefully-used Volt battery based on logged data of “peak demand events”, “charging attentiveness”, and other historical use parameters in the PCM.


  65. 65
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (8:59 am)

    Dan,
    Amen on the price: “less is more”!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  66. 66
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:01 am)

    Dan,
    “Dibs” on the used Volt (just in case).(g)
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  67. 67
    zipdrive

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:03 am)

    Yep, no doubt about it CC – only the Volt, with it’s EREV technology will do for me, and most people on this site!


  68. 68
    Dan Petit

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:03 am)

    Tag,
    I’m sure somehow you’ll have your own well before then.


  69. 69
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:08 am)

    CDAVIS,
    Neat letter. It must have been a clever cover though:
    http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/09/audi-ev/
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  70. 70
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:10 am)

    Dan,
    From your lips to God’s ear!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  71. 71
    Dan Petit

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:16 am)

    Hey Tag,
    I just thought of another idea.
    What if you could use your Volt battery so gently, that you could get the first one to go, say, 6 or even 7 years before it fell below specs, then, where there was the situation Gen1, where you get a second battery then at the 6 or 7 years instead of the “anticipated” 5 years or so, (without greatly overdoing the Genset hours),
    that might cause a situation where the resale value computations might have the Volt ****REALLY**** retaining a greater portion of its original value in relation to the miles as well as time.

    There are just all these wonderful things that can come about with E-REV, and, it is just impossible to get them all written down at one time for all other OEM execs to come to the conclusions that they are in deep trouble if they do not soon jump an board with their firms to go E-REV like GM is doing it.


  72. 72
    Murray

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:28 am)

    2-doors, 4-doors…2 seats, 4seats…doesnt matter to me…this car is not attractive and based on its design I think 0-60 in 15 seconds seems about right….

    However….kudos to Hyundai for jumping in the BEV ring and realizing that hydrogen is too far off to be viable.


  73. 73
    zipdrive

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:31 am)

    Oops. sorry about the “it’s,” hee, hee. Should be its. My bad.


  74. 74
    Murray

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:32 am)

    nice Herm…four wheels…funny…

    I like the transparent glass they used for the windows, so you can see inside and out – cool stuff.


  75. 75
    Murray

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:35 am)

    I have to admit that Hyundai has come a long way in the past few years and I never would have suspected that they would be the company that impressed both me and the wife the most at this past years NY Auto Show.


  76. 76
    Bruce

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (10:03 am)

    Same battery pack as the Volt, without the range extender, here is the BEV for people who don’t want all the complexities of the Volt. This car will probably be half the price of the Volt also, which will make it extrememly compelling choice for those wanting a simple BEV 2nd car communter. With Hyundais plans for overall market domination over the next decade, I take this entry into the EV world very seriously.


  77. 77
    DaV8or

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (10:12 am)

    Or they just dumping the car at a significant loss to the company to gain market share or just to get anybody to actually buy one and not be a total loss.


  78. 78
    BS Detector

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (10:18 am)

    No more Hyundai’s for me. The last one had a problem with the engine.


  79. 79
    CDAVIS

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (10:19 am)

    _____________________________________________________
    Perhaps Mr. de Nysschen is suffering from BED (Bipolar EV Derangement).
    _____________________________________________________


  80. 80
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (10:23 am)

    CDAVIS,
    So many diagnoses, so little time….
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  81. 81
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (10:34 am)

    Loboc,
    You can bet the farm that Lyle is a good “yardstick”.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  82. 82
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (10:38 am)

    Jake,
    Weren’t the Li-poly batteries the ones that use Pixie Dust? A thread the other day seemed to suggest that.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


  83. 83
    SteveK9

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:02 am)

    BYD is the largest battery manufacturer in the world. Automobiles is a new venture for them.


  84. 84
    SteveK9

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:05 am)

    Hyundai Sonata 2004, 70K, no repairs of any kind.


  85. 85
    Noel Park

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:13 am)

    Tagamet:

    I just got a passport after many years. I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was. Go for it!

    I’ll probably never leave the country in my lifetime at the rate I’m going, but it’s still kind of cool to have.


  86. 86
    omnimoeish

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:15 am)

    And the Mini E has a 26 kWh battery (actual use) and that still get 70 miles.


  87. 87
    Herm

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:17 am)

    Probably selling it at a loss at $16k, the original cost was $21k I think.. GM will also sell the Volt at a loss, dont forget.

    A BEV in China will not sell, they subsidize the cost of fuel over there.


  88. 88
    Noel Park

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:27 am)

    allcarselectric.com also mentioned that Hyundai is going to show an even smaller “B-” sized hybrid. Supposedly with a 3 cyl 1.3L engine and a dual clutch 6 speed transmission. Wait for it. I bet it gets 80 mpg. Maybe even 100 and win the X Prize, LOL.

    Targeted only at Europe, of course. Watch this thing gain world mileage bragging rights for Hyundai. Not that I’m going to buy one, I hasten to add. About as likely as buying an Audi, LOL.

    Also, in today’s paper there was an article about Toyota selling their 2 MILLIONTH hybrid car. Bob Lutz was right, nobody will ever buy those !@#$% things, hahaha. The Prius is the most popular car in Japan at the moment.

    Come on guys, LJGTVWOTR!!. The train is leaving (has left?) the station.


  89. 89
    Herm

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:27 am)

    Its a 6 year old car company, I believe they are on track to sell 500k cars this year.. very fast growing. They will supply batteries to VW.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Auto

    “BYD Auto was formed as a division of rechargeable battery manufacturer BYD Co Ltd a year after its 2002 acquisition of the Tsinchuan Automobile Company.[1]
    BYD produces nearly all of the components used in its vehicles, from the air conditioning units to the engines.[2] This is in contrast to most other auto manufacturers,[2] who normally outsource a great deal of the components used in their vehicles, performing final assembly at their own factories.
    In 2006 BYD began to export its vehicles to foreign countries,[3] and as of 2009 BYD exports its cars to Africa, South America and the Middle East.[2] The company is planning to enter the European and Israeli markets in 2010,[4] and hopes to sell vehicles in the United States by 2011.[5]“


  90. 90
    Noel Park

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:30 am)

    BTW, where are our little bridge dwelling friends this morning? Maybe they don’t work Saturdays down at the PR consulting shop. Or maybe Dr. Dennis finally lost patience and blocked them, LOL. Or maybe they just all went to a health care town hall today.


  91. 91
    Herm

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:32 am)

    I see a lot of new homes with the electrical panel in the garage.. so it wont be hard or expensive to install a specialized plug.


  92. 92
    Dave K.

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:34 am)

    NP… they are probably dumpster diving for discarded NiMH batteries.

    =D~


  93. 93
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:38 am)

    It looks like an electric Chevy Aveo-5.
    What is this ‘World Economy’ coming to…?


  94. 94
    ccombs

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:48 am)

    I suppose that would be because this car has no gas generator to fall back on to save the battery in low temps/etc. Instead they probably have to have a higher-tech thermal management system.


  95. 95
    ccombs

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:50 am)

    Yeah, that needs to change and soon I suppose it will.


  96. 96
    Dave K.

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:00 pm)

    The makers of EV and EREV need to keep in mind that they are making replacements for internal combustion engine cars. A 0-60 time of over 10 seconds is tossing away a big incentive. Leaving quiet operation and freedom from liquid fuel as the gain.

    I believe Hyundai best focus on EV trucks and leave the mini EV market to BMW and Nissan. Being king of EV trucking is a very good thing.

    Chevy has a golden opportunity to seize the EREV car and truck market. With 0-60 times under 9 seconds, the foundation is established. Most ICE trucks now have 0-60 times of about 8 seconds, but at the cost of efficiency (22 mpg combined).

    yes we can?

    =D~


  97. 97
    Larry

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:00 pm)

    413V may be the battery pack voltage.


  98. 98
    Tudor

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:01 pm)

    I will never understand why they don’t want to sell this car. I would buy it with cash down like many other people.


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    JEC

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:07 pm)

    Really? I have not seen any with electrical service in the garage. Maybe this is region specific?

    I live in WI, where the winters can be pretty cold. I wonder if in colder climates, they avoid installing in the garage? I would really not be to excited to reset a tripped breaker in the middle of night, in January, with temps at -20F.

    What part of the country are you in, Herm?


  100. 100
    RB

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:11 pm)

    Herm –> I think it is usable capacity as you suggested.


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    Larry

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:12 pm)

    I think it’s kinda cute. I like the soccer ball motif ;)


  102. 102
    RB

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:12 pm)

    Let’s find out what the 0 to 30 time is. It may be pretty quick from a standing start.


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    RB

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:20 pm)

    Herm —> Now that we’ve shifted to a range thread [ sorry JEC :) ] I recall the rationale for the Volt is that 80% of drivers require 40 miles per day or less. So a nominal range of 99miles covers all these people more than twice over, or in other words with lots of margin to soothe range anxiety (or less than 99 miles actual range because of higher speeds or whatever).

    Most people who buy a car like this will pay attention to the remaining range, so the question is whether the car can provide good metering of the range remaining. What will confuse people is if the car says “50 miles remaining” and then is discharged only 10 miles later. Presumably that is not going to happen, but remaining range is not as easy as remaining gallons in the tank (and even that often is mis-reported on the gauge.)


  104. 104
    Larry

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:21 pm)

    I think the whole fast charge issue is a hangover from gas station filling. The car is going to sit in the garage or in the driveway for at least 8 hours every night.
    What is the point in having it charge faster than that?


  105. 105
    RB

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:24 pm)

    GM is not going to sell Volts at a loss in the sense of sales price is less than the cost of parts and assembly. The Volt may be sold at a loss when the per-car expenses include substantial overhead costs, such as legacy and management costs. It’s not to say that the latter are not real costs, because they are, but they are not the cost to assemble.


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    RB

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:25 pm)

    Tag — Not hard to get a passport Try your local post office. Worth having one just in case you get a last-minute call :)


  107. 107
    RB

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:27 pm)

    Yes, whether or not it is successful in the US, Hyundai will be successful with this car. It meets the low-end needs of many many people


  108. 108
    RB

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:28 pm)

    Herm –> were lockable doors specifically mentioned? :)


  109. 109
    JEC

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:31 pm)

    Dave K

    I am fairly confident that EREV and BEV trucks are going to be difficult.

    Replacing a commuter ICE with electric makes sense, since much of the time a commuter type car requires only occasional mid to high power. This makes the range of the commuter car “reasonable”. Now, when you talk about trucks, which would be used as a truck, not just a fancy commuter, then your application would use mid to high power more frequently. So, the simple matter of the fact is that your using so many kW-hr’s, that your battery will only be effective for short time periods.

    Now with that being said, I do believe there are high power applications that electrics may be relevant. These would be in vehicles that are constantly starting and stopping (garbage, mail delivery, etc..). You could recapture the kinetic energy with regen brakes. But, regen only recovers a fraction of the energy (I think 30% is what I have learned in the past), so even these applications may have difficulties with current tech of batteries.

    So, if you want a truck to use on a construction site, and your hauling several tons of material constantly, I think the electric solution will be difficult.

    Just an opinion.


  110. 110
    Dave K.

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:46 pm)

    Understood JEC, I realize it’s tough now. We must lay the foundation for future gain and not make the mistake of looking at battery potential in a vacuum. Battery technology is doubling each 3 years. Remember your Pentium 1 for $2100? The basic pocket calculator for $39? The first bulky brick cell phone (that would never catch on)?

    My optimistic position wouldn’t have a leg to stand on if it weren’t for the recent interest by nearly all vehicle manufactures on the globe. We are witnessing a true Renaissance.

    In 2006 a web search on “electric cars you can buy now” would pull up 8 vehicles. The better of the bunch being deluxe golf carts. In 2009 we have dozens with several rated for high way use. Any guesses on 2012?

    =D~


  111. 111
    Noel Park

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (12:53 pm)

    A company in LA is acually building a prototype BEV semi tractor or tractors to tow containers around the terminals at the ports. “Greenwashing”? The ports are very good at same, but it will be interesting to see if anything actually comes of it.

    Granted that the duty cycles are much different from over the road trucks, but still it’s a start. Or not?


  112. 112
    Noel Park

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:01 pm)

    CorvetteGuy:

    I can think of worse things than an electric Chevy Aveo-5. Actually, when we went to seet the Volt in Santa Monica, there was a company there with exactly that on display. They buy a new Aveo-5 and convert it to a BEV. $29,995 turn key. They were out of Flagstaff, AZ, if memory serves.

    No Daewoos for me, but how about the Beat sized car that is supposed to be assembled here pretty soon? Better yet, offer it as a hybrid to compete with the Hyundai I mentioned above. Could you sell those, if they got say 80 mpg? i would buy one today.

    Haven’t you called for an EREV Cruze? I think that you are absolutely right there.


  113. 113
    Dave K.

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:05 pm)

    I wouldn’t be surprised to see battery recharge taken from the flow of air over the truck body. And as mentioned in a prior post. Lego blocking cells would make the electric big rig a real player. Truck stops could snap in 8 fully charged cells faster than you can eat three flat tires, a pair of headlights and pair of running boards.

    =D~


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    Tall Pete

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:10 pm)

    In the current state of research, hydrogen is a no go no matter what advantages we may find to it.

    It’s not gonna happen anytime soon and when research solves the problem of range for BEV, it’s not going to be viable at all.

    In the meantime, we’ll have EREV to solve the range problem.


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    Dave K.

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:19 pm)

    Wait until the new EREV’s are featured on The Today Show. Look at what happened when the Smart Car was featured. This RWD micro car offering a 1L engine @ 41 mpg highway was “sold out” for months.

    Would like to see an EREV Cruze, but at 39 mpg highway (stock), this may not happen.

    =D~


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    DonC

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:20 pm)

    Wouldn’t the analog gauge work for this? Estimating miles is hard because you have to accurately predict how those miles will be driven. It’s easier to work like a fuel gauge and just tell the driver how many watts are left. Higher end cars might try other means of estimating range, but this is a low end cheapie so my guess is that people won’t necessarily expect much. This wouldn’t be any than what happens now.

    Spending a lot of effort on estimating the driving radius seems like a lot of effort that won’t yield much benefit, especially for an EREV like the Volt where EV range isn’t that much of an issue.


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    kdawg

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:21 pm)

    With LG making more & more cells, the cost should come down. (good for us)


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    jake

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:22 pm)

    I am referring to the fairly common LiFePO4 cells, or lithium iron phosphate cells. The company is ThunderSky; I think most people who have done EV conversions should have heard of them. ~$300/kWh is a bulk buy price. Actually looking more closely, they may not be li-poly cells, they might still have electrolyte fluid.

    Initially ThunderSky’s batteries(Lithium Cobalt), had a lot of quality problems and many didn’t meet specs. However they have improved quality dramatically with their lithium iron phosphate chemistry, but there is still a chance of getting bad cells and there is also no support for them.


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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:29 pm)

    I like the idea of a replacement battery. Tesla will sell you one at a discount when you buy the car. However, I’m not sure I understand your five year idea. The battery is supposed to meet the specs after ten years or 150,000K miles. Even after ten years you could still use it to power the car, just not as far. Batteries don’t fall off a cliff, they sort of slowly degrade (though faster at EOL).

    When you think about it, most cars aren’t driven that much after they are ten years old, so if the battery lasts like GM thinks it will then my guess would be you could use it for 15 years.


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    DonC

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:32 pm)

    Most popular car in Japan? The Prius seems like the most popular car in SoCal. My guess is that hybrid Lexus will sell well also. Then again, as Maximum Bob has said, the coasts are “off in their own little world”.


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    DonC

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:39 pm)

    I am fairly confident that EREV and BEV trucks are going to be difficult.

    You have to think that delivery trucks and vans are most amenable to a BEV application. While they haul a lot of stuff, it’s usually over nice paved roads. Plus the routes are usually prescribed so the concern about range is lessened. On the potential savings side, they waste a lot of gas just idling, giving them horrible MPG numbers, so a BEV model could save a lot in operating costs.


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    Dave K.

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:48 pm)

    Electric vehicles of the world: Listed by State and by Country

    http://energy.sourceguides.com/businesses/byP/ev/ecars/byGeo/byGeo.shtml

    =D~


  123. 123
    jake

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (1:50 pm)

    Neither Lithium nor Cobalt are precious metals (certainly not even close to platinum). Lithium is ~1% of the cost of a typical battery, so for a $3 laptop cell for example, it’s only 3 cents. Even if lithium has to be made from seawater and the price rockets 2-3x it’ll still only be 6-9 cents. It’s not going to drive the costs of batteries very significantly. Cobalt is more expensive than Lithium, but luckily there are plenty of other alternatives and it looks like none of the major automakers are using cobalt (Tesla is the only company using Cobalt-based cells AKA laptop cells).

    And what’s with the repeating claims? Seems too much like propaganda. Saying it once is enough.

    Also even though small lithium batteries rarely get recycled, what makes you think the same thing will happen to a couple hundred pound battery in a car? It’s not like you can just throw it in the trash like you do with small batteries. It’s almost guaranteed it will be recycled because it still has value (there’s still raw materials in there that can be sold for money) and as LandKurt pointed out, automobile batteries have almost a 100% recycling rate (at least 90+%), probably the best out of any kind of recycling.

    Also on average, fuel cells last only about 60k miles (they don’t last forever, an issue most hydrogen promoters ignore completely). So by your own argument, we’ll be dumping all the fuel cells into landfills 2-3x more often than batteries (which can last 150k miles). And all the fuel cell prototypes out today use platinum, so we will just be throwing that in the trash as well, right?


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:00 pm)

    I’m hoping for an all-electric ‘Spark’ or ‘Beat’ or whatever they will call it too. An EREV Cruze makes the most sense for a Gen-2 EREV for Chevy since the VOLT will be too upscale. An EREV ‘Orlando’ would be cool since the HHR’s (and Chrysler’s PT Cruiser) seem VERY dated on the styling. They need to go… quick! And, I hope GM dumps the Malibu once the VOLT arrives. There would be no need for it unless they can really improve the Hybrid’s gas mileage.


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    DonC

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:04 pm)

    t also illustrates how much range can be squeezed out of a pack this size in a lightweight pure EV. Energy consumption would allow 7.8 miles per kwh assuming a conventional 80% charge window in the pack. The Volt will achieve 5 miles per kwh.

    The first sentence represents a profound insight. At the end of the day it’s all about moving mass. With payloads (the driver) representing 5% or less of the total mass of the vehicle, we’re paying a huge penalty for using traditional materials in vehicles today. We obsess about how developments in battery technology can provide more energy, but the sensible path would be to likewise examine how to reduce the amount of energy needed. But rarely does anyone here mention mass as an issue. The thinking at GM seems to follow the same pattern. They have achieved super results in downsizing the fuel cell pack, but then they stick it in an SUV that weighs two tons. Doesn’t make a lot of sense. Hopefully we’ll see more done with composites and lightweight steel. There is surely a lot that can be done in this area. Personally I would have liked to have seen DOE grants go to material research as well as battery research.

    A good example of how a more light weight vehicle might help in ways not obvious at first blush would be the effective amount of charge which the battery could hold. The 80% charge window Lyle refers to seems overly optimistic. This is usually the maximum SOC — I believe most recently Nissan has said this will be their maximum for the Leaf — but there is also a minimum. One reason, among others, that you don’t want to fully charge the battery is to account for the situation where someone starts out on top of a hill. If you fully charge the battery then you need a much more robust braking system since you won’t be able to use regen. However, If the car were lighter, you’d need to absorb less energy with regen, and you might be able to have a higher SOC when the car was fully charged.


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    Noel Park

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:16 pm)

    Amen on the HHR and the PT Cruiser. Dated on the styling the day they hit the street, IMHO. My wife could really get interested in something like a Mazda 5 (the best looking van in the world, IMHO). EREV would be frosting on the cake. An “Orlando” type vehicle wolud be a good work vehicle for me too.

    Most of us are total lay people when it comes to selling cars. We can theorize all day, but it’s great to hear what someone on the front line thinks. Thanks.

    BTW, one local dealer is advertising a 2009 Corvette at $10K off of sticker today. If those Audi chumps want to impress the girls, this would be a lot better bet, LOL.


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    Noel Park

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:20 pm)

    There’s an article on the MSN news page this AM about Mazda showing a hydrogen powered, rotary engined, concept. Evidently it’s a live prototype, as the reporter actually drove it. It’s dual fuel so that you can switch to gasoline when you run out of hydrogen, LOL. No, I am not making this up!

    They are also supposedly going to show some kind of a “series hybrid” van which will use a similar hydrogen powered rotary for the “range extender”.

    Another country heard from.


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    Comcastic

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:22 pm)

    Doofus Alert:

    Buddy Ro, CNG has no range. You’re gas tank would have to be half the size of your car for it to be usable in the real world. Get your head out of your butt-crack and then try and get a clue.


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    Comcastic

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:26 pm)

    Another Doofus with out a leash:

    Many Hydrogen cars are operating quite nicely in the New York area. A bit pricey, but the technology is being proven TODAY. Kindly remove your dome from the sand pit and see the light.


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    Crack Whore

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:29 pm)

    We need more choices like this. I am sure it will sell for under $20K here just like the LEAF and other imports. Bring’em all. The Volt will have its niche too.


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    Noel Park

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:30 pm)

    #34 DonC:

    As to the weight, amen brother, preach on.

    While variouly credited to Clarence “Kelly” Johnson or Colin Chapman, the maxim:

    “Simplicate and add lightness”

    is more valid today than ever, IMHO. Those Rocky Mountain Institue guys take a lot of flak, but I actually think that their underlying principle of light weight is dead on.

    The first thing i look at when I read a report on a new car is the curb weight.


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    The Engineer

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (2:35 pm)

    I am sure once the Aftermarket gets cranked up for these pure EVs you will see Speed-Kits, Track-Kits, Long-Distance-Kits that bolt-on and will make these cheap cars pocket rockets. Just look what the aftermarket has already done with Notebook, Netbook and Cellphone Batteries. The Auto aftermarket components make factory parts look like crap and the EV aftermarket will be no different.


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    KenEE

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (3:23 pm)

    The only two cars that appeal to me so far are the GM Volt and the Tesla Model-S. (Volt would be ahead if it sat five)

    I guess this Hyundai i10 would be great for kids?

    On second read I can’t imagine who this i10 would appeal to except maybe single young extreme granola women under 20? Maybe with a speed kit you could add 17 year old highschool boys?

    Looks to me like a case of “We need a press release about an EV and we need it NOW!”

    It is good to see more pressure. Soon all car compainies will have to sell appealing EV’s.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (3:40 pm)

    JEC and Herm,
    Our house here in Penna, was built in the last century (1974)(g) and it has the garage electric panel.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (3:42 pm)

    Noel,
    I haven’t bought a fishing license because I figured I wouldn’t get out. Seems like a passport would be similar (but I know they take longer to get).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (3:44 pm)

    RB,
    At the post office??? I didn’t know that. Maybe they can use the photo ID from my concealed carry license. (g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Dave K.

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (3:58 pm)

    Although it’s rough on the bank account…

    It’s best that manufacturers put the extra time and money into EV and EREV development. The last thing the industry needs is someone rushing a $22k EV to market and having it bomb on dependability. I could see an underhanded deal with OPEC making this happen. We just have to live with the growing pains associated with realizing a quality product.

    =D~


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    canehdian

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (4:05 pm)

    So.. an equally unimpressive Accent.
    Excellent.
    They could have at least put in some decent acceleration.
    The Accent would be a nice little car if it weren’t so pitifully underpowered.


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    Van

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (4:13 pm)

    The problem with light vehicles is that they change direction rapidly when hit by bigger more massive vehicles. We should work on getting rid of the bigger more massive vehicles, no new technology required. Perhaps vehicles over 4000 lbs should face an annual registration fee of one dollar a pound over 4000.


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    ClarksonCote

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (5:07 pm)

    Haha, it always kills me when I catch myself doing that too. ;)


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    Sep 5th, 2009 (5:15 pm)

    Hi JEC,

    Nice explanation. You’re right on. I guess most people not familiar with electricity would refer to it as doubling up, since you’re using both legs instead of one, which was why I stated it that way. Thanks for clarifying though.

    I’ve taken apart my panel to add some breakers before and am very familiar with the staggering of the phases on each column. Haven’t heard of the “edison circuit” before, but if I ever do that I’ll be sure not to “cross the streams” ;)

    Your zero current in the neutral line seems to make sense to me. As I understand it, that’s also part of why good practice is to wire a house such that the loads are evenly distributed between the two phases.

    Anyways, with the “doubling up” comment, I was hoping to draw some simlarities in my own head just to try and figure out where this whole 413V notion comes from.

    Like Larry, I thought it might be the battery pack voltage, but the press releases I saw on Google for the i10 seem to be pretty clear that the battery is charged from a 413V source. I’m sure that could be a simple mix-up though.


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    Ziv

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (5:15 pm)

    JEC, in Virginia larger, newer homes built after about 1980 frequently (i.e. 30-40%) have the circuit breakers in the garage instead of the more usual spot in the basement or in the utility room closest to the side of the home where the electrical weatherhead is located. Not sure the pluses or minuses of the two locations, but I have to admit, I like basement better. Stable temperature and less moisture sound like good things. Regardless, having an electrician install a 220 volt outlet for the Volt is not going to be too expensive in either case.
    I am still shaking my head about an earlier poster who thinks that since people don’t recycle a $5 or even a $60 laptop battery, it means that we won’t bother to recycle a 16 kWh battery that costs $8-10,000 new (in 2011) and will still have 8 kWh or so of useable power when it is replaced in 2021. I can think of a lot of people that would buy an 8 kWh battery, my cabin would be a lot more liveable with a photovoltaic system and a small fridge and electric lights instead of coleman gas lamps. That would be worth at least $400 or so.
    I might end up selling it to an electrical company for peak over load situations.
    The most likely use though, will be to sell it to someone who can’t afford to replace their 16 kWh battery for $5000 or so in 2021 (SWAG at 2009 equivalent dollars), and has drained their Volts battery down to 3-4 kWh or so by putting hella miles on their Volt. My 8 kWh battery pack will give them a 30+ mile AER range until they can afford a new 16 kWh battery a year or two later when the price comes down to $4500 (2023 price). Two years worth of battery for a Volt, definitely worth $500+. An 8 kWh battery simply is not going to be thrown out like some alkaline D battery.
    Heck, worst comes to worst and I simply sell the battery to have the lithium stripped out, it is worth more than $100. It is one thing to throw away a used up battery worth 50 cents at a recycler. But $100 or more is money most of us won’t throw away. Lithium isn’t that expensive but it ain’t free.


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    Ziv

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (5:33 pm)

    Larry, I agree with what you say about this, 90% of the time. And for a lot us charging will work just the way you describe. But the fast charge issue is one of the reasons the Volt will succeed where BEV’s will not. 5-10% of the time I drive, I am not going to be at home and I need to refuel fast on a 200+ mile trip. BEV’s can’t do it. The Volt can. BEV’s that do fast charge usually lose life expectancy by doing so and there is no infrastructure to do it yet, and daytime fastcharging of a large amount of BEV’s is a lot different than charging them at night.
    The Volt can just pull in and fuel up, day or night, no stress on the battery pack or on an overloaded daytime electrical grid. 90% of the time people don’t need to fast charge or refuel using gasoline, but the 10% of the time that you do, BEV’s take it on the chin and their drivers will miss having the best of both worlds, the Volt.


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    RB

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:26 pm)

    DonC — A gauge giving a good idea of remaining charge or remaining battery energy will work fine, I imagine. It just needs to be accurate.

    Making such a gauge is hard to do, but I hope will be done.

    As for the Volt, saying it isn’t much of an issue is an opinion that I’m doubtful about.


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    RB

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:31 pm)

    Most places the post office has the forms for passports and takes the application. I assume they check your id to be sure you are you. Then it gets sent to Washington and is issued shortly thereafter. It really moves along quickly now.


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    RB

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:33 pm)

    JEC –> pretty funny. I can imagine things in that order.


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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:36 pm)

    Fast charge is more appealing at a commercial facility –> pull in and charge it up, possibly while you shop or while you eat. Additionally, a commercial facility can more readily absorb the higher cost of 413V installation, or whatever.


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    Fishmahn

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:38 pm)

    Many village offices do too. Generally takes about 10 days but if you pay a rush fee it takes 3 days (did for me a couple years ago).

    Fishmahn


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    RB

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:42 pm)

    Noel –> I’d like a Corvette….


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    Sep 5th, 2009 (6:45 pm)

    It is incorrect to conclude that safety issues with smaller cars come from larger ones. In smaller cars one is unfortunately just closer to the point of impact, and one changes direction more rapidly no matter what is hit. Larger vehicles have drawbacks, but as a group they are safer. Physics.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (7:23 pm)

    RB and Fishmahn,
    Thanks for the passport info!
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Newman

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:16 pm)

    415V is a standard 3 phase voltage in many parts of the world.
    UK, Aus. etc.

    Where 230-240v Single phase is standard, i.e. Hot+Neutral.
    3 phase = 230-240v x 1.73 (square root of 3) = about 400 to 415v.
    Common in many service stations garages/workshops etc. in those countries.

    US has a dual phase 240v standard Hot + Hot
    Any Hot to Neutral yields your 120v.


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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:41 pm)

    Statik just posted another article
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    Sep 5th, 2009 (9:43 pm)

    Dave K,
    Amen. Patience now will pay off down the road. They HAVE to get the Volt right.
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS


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    grat

     

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:52 pm)

    With a top speed of 81, and a 0-60 time of 15 seconds, I would expect that the 99 mile range is only if you keep it below 50mph. The motor is shown as 66 hp, and while they don’t list a weight, 5 door 5 passenger isn’t going to be *that* lightweight.


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    grat

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    Sep 5th, 2009 (11:58 pm)

    A quick google search brought me this result from ca.gov about their fleet CNG cars:

    “The driving range of a Honda Civic compressed natural gas (CNG) dedicated (CNG only) sedan with a full tank filled at 3,600 psi is 200 – 225 miles of freeway driving or 34 mpg.”

    So, not only are you rude, dismissive and immature, you’re flat out wrong.

    Still though, as I’ve said before… I’d rather use natural gas to feed stationary fuel cells to provide the electricity for EV– it will scale much better than 1 fuel cell / car, and energy storage technology seems to be advancing faster than fuel cell technology (And all kudos to GM– they’ve really made progress from their 3rd to 4th to 5th generation fuel cell technology).


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    Sep 6th, 2009 (12:01 am)

    You know they’ve got an expected lifetime of 80,000 miles, right? I personally don’t like the idea of swapping out the engine of my car every 80k miles.

    Yes, I know the 5th gen GM fuel cell has an expected lifetime of 120,000 miles.

    Still though, you have to spend electricity to make hydrogen (at a loss), spend power to store / transport that hydrogen, then convert that hydrogen back into electricity inside the vehicle (at a loss).

    Why not store the electricity directly into the car, and use it (at a loss) to power the car? it’s far more efficient with today’s technology.


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    Sep 6th, 2009 (12:11 am)

    Hydrogen isn’t toxic? Ok, so if I put you in a room with 100% hydrogen atmosphere for two hours, you’ll be fine, right?

    Lithium/Ion battery recyclers exist.

    Finally, if you can build a fuel cell without platinum (or similar) at a reasonable cost, GM wants you– they expect to get their next generation fuel cell down to requiring only 10g of platinum. I’ve heard of “nano iron powder” being a possible catalyst, but until now, I’ve never heard of carbon being a catalyst.


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    Sep 6th, 2009 (12:17 am)

    Yeah, it’s called a Mazda RX-8. Apparently the rotary engine is almost as happy burning pure hydrogen (60% mileage) as it is burning gasoline. They took a stock RX-8, added some fuel lines and a H2 tank, a few electronics, and it “just worked”.


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    DonC

     

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    Sep 6th, 2009 (1:34 am)

    RB is on the right track. Thee are some design issues that have to be addressed, but a pound of composites can absorb 5X the energy of a pound of steel, so a heavier vehicle isn’t necessarily a safer vehicle. Also a collision of less mass results in less energy that needs to be absorbed by the vehicle bodies, which also makes the collisions less likely to cause death or injury.

    But even without composites, small cars are not necessarily less safe than larger vehicles. The death rate for drivers of the smallest cars is 106 per million registered vehicles. That compares favorably with the death rate for drives of small pickups, which is 116 fatalities per million vehicles, and is essentially the same as the death rates for full sized pickup drivers.


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    N Riley

     

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    Sep 6th, 2009 (10:55 am)

    Well, I can see why they want to lease this car. With looks like that, no one is going to want to buy it. Good luck!


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    Shawn Marshall

     

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    Sep 6th, 2009 (11:10 am)

    No such thing in US anymore as 110V or 220V. These are very old designations – older than my first wife. I know that on the world’s foremost electric car techno babble site, we should use the appropriate designations;120/240.
    If the fast charger runs at 413V. that’s no big deal since you may transform 120 or 240 0r etc to any voltage desired and then use a rectum-finder & caps or whatever(SCRs stil out there?) to get your D.C. It’s not a big deal. The big deal is a 15 minute charge !! even though this has been forbidden by certain obdurate techno-babblers on this site – no ‘ffing fast charging is allowed – verboten. This BEV, if offered at $25 k would be very practical for me. I hope some US capital enterprise will enter the fray.
    Peace be with you. Guess I’m so late, thankfully no one will notice the little vent – hoping like a widow in church.


  163. 163
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

     

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    Sep 6th, 2009 (2:38 pm)

    Or a trailer generator, I have seen pictures of one EV1 equipped with a generator hauled on a trailer.
    And this car was used by GM engineers who were subject to range anxiety.

    Guy Nègre did the same with a version of his Aircar.

    Regards

    JC NPNS


  164. 164
    Lev

     

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    Sep 6th, 2009 (4:37 pm)

    Agreed entirely. Obviously they don’t know what they are doing. They are under the impression that hydrogen is going somewhere. And a converted production car will be nowhere near as effective as a purpose-built vehicle. Also, how common are 413 volt outlets?


  165. 165
    solo

     

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (10:35 am)

    I don’t think the world of motoring is changing before our eyes just yet. All these cars have a very very limited appeal to a small number of mostly urban buyers who don’t depend on a car for daily transportation.

    Gas and diesel powered cars will be the biggest chunk of the market for many years, followed by hybrid cars like the Toyota, Ford, Honda offerings. Next will be cars like the Volt, and finally fully electric cars that very few people will want given the cost and lack of range. I haven’t seen anything that will change this mix, including 4 to 6 dollar a gallon gas because there are simply no viable (yet) alternatives to gas and diesel power.


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    RockyMountainHigh

     

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (5:35 pm)

    Can you imagine how much energy is wasted in compressing a gas to 3600 PSI? I would guess that the compression (and resulting thermodynamic “makeup” required to get the extremely cold de-compressed NG back up to usable temperatures) would cost about half of the energy value of the NG that came out of the Earth.


  167. 167
    RockyMountainHigh

     

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (5:43 pm)

    Thunder Sky makes LiFePo batteries. THey are not li-polymer. They are also notoriously awful in terms of quality control. A new company in the U.S. called International Battery licensed the Thunder Sky patents and will soon be making the same batteries that will be able to meet U.S. auto market specifications.


  168. 168
    RockyMountainHigh

     

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (5:50 pm)

    Every new model that Hyundai has put out has flopped. However, they have all succeeded in the long run. That’s because they put 5% of their effort into the initial introductory model and 95% of their effort into improving it over time. Hyundai has become a spectacular automobile manufacturer–I’ve spoken to several people in the industry who have worked with them and been amazed at how good they have become. If anyone can crack the BEV nut–it will be Hyundai. Meanwhile, their home market is far more desperate for EV’s than the US market–it’s a relatively small country with limited range needed, most driving in the big cities involves sitting in traffic jams, and gasoline costs $10/gallon. South Korea will be a great test-bed for EV’s. And you better believe that the Korean government will do everything in its power to give Hyundai the upper hand in the home market.


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