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Why GM is Concerned About Plugin Readiness Infrastructure
GM has for months been discussing and promoting the idea of community plug-in readiness. This relates to the development of public charging infrastructure and government incentives to enhance the adoption of electric cars. In fact, GM has clearly stated that those communities which have demonstrated sufficient plugin readiness will be rewarded with being the first rollout locations for the Volt.
People often wonder why GM needs to go through all of this effort. I asked the following questions about it of Tony Posawatz, GM’s Volt vehicle line engineer.
A lot of people ask why is GM focusing on plugin readiness. They say if its just like a plasma screen TV being plugged into an outlet in your garage, what’s the big deal?
There’s a little bit of history to this. We’ve made a lot of mistakes in our history and we’ve learned. GM has already failed three times on infrastructure.
We have not succeeded on E85 yet its a really cleaver idea. I’m not referring to corn but the more advanced stuff.
Hydrogen…I don’t know what happened to the hydrogen superhighway, no infrastructure there.
Also I would argue for EV-1, we didn’t set up a good infrastructure there.
So we said fool me once, fool me twice…
The Volt was designed to make the infrastructure challenge easier.
The Volt doesn’t need public charging the Volt needs number one really good charging at home. Just plug it in? Not so fast my friend, the data we look at says.
Let’s say we don’t have a ready city initiative, or the region your going into, the education. The electric company is a driver of special benefits too. People would be losing out. Wouldn’t you want someone to set a standard that EV drivers get the best parking or the HOV lane? This helps mitigate the initial cost because you get the extra value. You may get free charging. This is our effort because we have some leverage. We recognize that one of the issues with Volt is a cost issue.
If you live in a 1947 farmhouse in Connecticut and you want to plug it in, but it its not a dedicated circuit, and every morning when your vehicle is charging and your daughter turns on the hairdryer and the fuse blows. Who’s going to get blamed? Who are they going to call? Its a very real situation. Many houses are not wired to code, they are wired in a very cheap manner.
We’ve learned, and we so much want to make this work we are not missing anything.
We are negotiating with some prominent companies to get the home ready… house installations, or if you want the plug moved or a dedicated circuit or a special meter or 220V.
GM won’t have its own wiring subsidiary?
No we will actively be involved in setting the requirements for a partner. There are companies that did the EV-1.
The 240 V cord has to go directly into the wall?
Yes, that’s by code.
In the showroom we want to have a system available in parallel to get the house ready.
This is why were so big on infrastructure. Number one to see if we can bring additional benefits to the customer, and to build this thing for the future so we can engage partners and build new opportunities that I can’t tell you about yet. Once your in someone’s home what kind of things well be able to do and you say to yourself, this is more than just a car.
August 31st, 2009 at 6:39 am
It is interesting he mentioned Connecticut.
I highly doubt our State will be first.
I can’t think of any city or town that is building an infrastructure for EVs.
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:44 am
Free fill up at work would be a great benefit for early adopters. Gas usage could head towards zero quickly with this option.
Filling up at other stops (the mall, the movie theater, hotels / motels) would also be nice for an EV driver.
Go GM, push the infrastructure…
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:49 am
Shocking news….
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:51 am
GM is correct that the home is their #1 infrastructure focus. They really do seem to have their act together on this one.
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:55 am
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:58 am
You have this wrong.
It makes perfect sense to have an infrastructure for this.
Many EV companies can make use of it. Not just GM.
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:59 am
Maybe the problem wasn’t that you didn’t spend enough time/money working on a new E85/Hydrogen infrastructure.
Maybe, there isn’t enough corn/sugar out there yet to make enough E85 and the switchgrass/biotrash ethanol hasn’t made it past the proof of concept phase.
Maybe, hydrogen vehicles cost a million a piece and until you can generate hydrogen cheaply and cleanly there is 0 benefit to converting to hydrogen at this point.
I’ll give you that people need a dedicated circuit for the volt in their home.
One of my big problems with betterplace (and I really dislike them) is that they’re trying to make EV’s complicated by artificially manufacturing an infrasturcture.
GM, you have a winner on your hands that utilizes the two most readily available power sources. You’ll do fine with the volt. just have dealers explain the Volt should have a dedicated breaker if you keep tripping fuses.
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:00 am
“If you live in a 1947 farmhouse in Connecticut and you want to plug it in, but it its not a dedicated circuit, and every morning when your vehicle is charging and your daughter turns on the hairdryer and the fuse blows. Who’s going to get blamed? Who are they going to call? Its a very real situation. Many houses are not wired to code, they are wired in a very cheap manner.”
Oh, please. If that’s the situation, the homeowner will set up a new circuit. We’ve been using electricity heavily in the US for 100 years… people who want a car charging circuit in the garage will get an appropriate circuit for a couple hundred bucks.
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:03 am
In NC, Raleigh (the state capitol but not the largest city) claims to be building infrastructure. They is a chicken and egg aspect in that without any cars in the hands of citizens there is not any detectable support for such an enterprise from ordinary people.
In any event, as I don’t live in Raleigh, for me the emphasis on infrastructure is a negative for buying a Volt or other EV — shouldn’t buy one unless and until some other infrastructure is already installed at my house or someplace, but there is nothing that I as an individual can do to get that infrastructure in place. It could take quite a while.
I’m really not convinced that such a delay is necessary, but the more gm talks about it, the more it seems like it must be so.
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:04 am
I agree that the home is important. But, I would argue that the average guy willing to spend $35,000 or more on the Volt will be able to understand that he needs a dedicated circuit. This is not really that tough to figure out. The average new microwave also needs a dedicated circuit and the microwave manufacturers don’t have to really do anything special to sell these things. (Same with hot tubs, jacuzzi baths, etc. etc.). The end user buys the thing and knows how to get his home ready for them. The Volt will be similar. WIll some fool plug it into an overladed circuit and constantly blow the fuse? Sure.. But I hope they don’t try to make it idiot proof and therefor more costly.
KISS should apply here. Its only an electrical circuit. They should not make it seem like you need a super special setup that only the dealers special contractor can install (at high $$ of course).
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:05 am
Posawatz: “Wouldn’t you want someone to set a standard that EV drivers get the best parking or the HOV lane? This helps mitigate the initial cost because you get the extra value. You may get free charging. This is our effort because we have some leverage. We recognize that one of the issues with Volt is a cost issue.”
Parking and HOV are subsidies, they transfer money from one taxpayers in general to specially selected groups. How many subsidies are necessary to make the Volt economically viable?
Of course, GM’s just going to be cutting its own throat. Rules and subsidies for EVs will just encourage more competition in EVs. Toyota developed the original Prius in 2.5 years. Starting with the current vehicle, they could easily find a way to put something that took maximum advantage of special rules on the road in a short amound of time.
“If GM can get marketing support from Uncle Sam,” the competition will think, “then so can we.”
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:06 am
Is it just me or is it really ironic that the piction for this article involves the recently cancelled vehicle?
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:07 am
Exactly,
Spend some public money to speed the adoption of EVs so that we can reduce foreign oil usage and clean the air.
This sounds better than much of the Pork our congress spends on now.
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:12 am
Jason,
Agree wholeheartedly. It’s a win-win if communities and states (like NC) get their acts together re infrastructure and perks it draws great companies to their area.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:12 am
Mr Posawatz says If you live in a 1947 farmhouse in Connecticut and you want to plug it in, but it its not a dedicated circuit, and every morning when your vehicle is charging and your daughter turns on the hairdryer and the fuse blows. Who’s going to get blamed? Who are they going to call? Its a very real situation. Many houses are not wired to code, they are wired in a very cheap manner.
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So what does Mr Posawatz want to see happen? Maybe I should imagine: “Sir, you are not allowed to buy a Volt until we inspect your house. Then if we find it is not up to the current code we will call the county inspector to come out to give you a citation. So if you want a Volt sir, you are going to have to shape up, renovate, and get certified.” (Of course, the electrical code changes every couple of years, adds items such as “must have light over back steps”, so any house more than a year or two old is not within the code)
I’d be so scared of that Volt I’d never go into that dealership again.
Do we all go through this kind of anxiety to buy a toaster? Well hardly. Shocking though it seems, I even know some seemingly mild-mannered law-abiding citizens who bought window air conditioners, which they run for hours on end. But the same voltages and currents are involved. Strange things are happening
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:12 am
I sent an e-mail over a year ago to let my building management company know this was coming. They are in the process of getting LEED certified and are hoping to get a ‘few’ electric charging stations in the parking deck. Fingers crossed that I can afford to be an early Volt adopter (end of 2011?)…
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:13 am
I work in a support position and no the public won’t figure this out. They will just see that the breaker connected to the Volt tripped and bring the car in for service. Then they will be pissed off that their new $40,000 car keeps tripping the breaker and either will deal with it and be pissed off at GM or bring back the car and have the dealer chase their tail. A lot of people are sheep when they don’t understand how something works.
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:13 am
nb,
See my post right below this (it could have been here too).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:15 am
I think GM is making more of this than they need to be. Seriously. When the person writes the check, then the car and everything that goes with it is his/her concern. If they live in an old farmhouse somewhere with ancient wiring, then that’s the owner’s problem. Do toaster manufacturers need to make sure there is a proper charging infrastructure available before they can sell? Mountain out of a mole hill.
Just focus on getting the car right GM.
Side…do I sound cranky for a Monday? Not trying to be, just saying.
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:16 am
Rashiid,
I know that as a state NC is doing a lot of plugin infrastructure. I can’t remember which cities though. If I was to guess, it’d be Charlotte and Raleigh though.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:16 am
I agree. Making it seem that “special” things need to be done for this car will turn off some people.
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:18 am
i think there is a necessity of infrastructure in place or else demand for PHEV will pickup at slower pace and lack of infrastrusture can do a big damage to the EV program.
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:23 am
Just curious , but VERY IMPORTANT
What sized wire is the proper one for an extension cord ?
What color is the extension cord ?
How can we tell if it is a proper one ?
Just how long (in feet) is it safe to run it from the plug at the house to the car ?
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:28 am
Besides the reasons mentioned by Tony, I think there is another underlying factor that is mentioned by GM in another document, but one that I can’t find right now.
As we know, with the Volt, about 78% of drivers can complete their daily routine without using gas. This is a good number. However, it was mentioned in one article, that if a drivers could plug in at work (or elsewhere) during the day, over 90% of drivers could go without using any gas for the day.
I see this as very significant, especially in California, where it is important to have cars rated as near-zero emissions vehicles. For me, this is another important aspect, but perhaps GM doesn’t want to mention this as an underlying reason.
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:35 am
I would never assume an early adopter motivated by global warming would understand that they may need their wiring evaluated / approved.
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:47 am
Credibility
Lost
Right
Around
Here,
“If you live in a 1947 farmhouse in Connecticut and you want to plug it in”
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August 31st, 2009 at 7:59 am
Perhaps, but one has to balance the need for infrastructure with the number of cars that are served by it. To this time that number is near to zero, except in some places that use a lot of electric golf-cart vehicles, and those are the places that have infrastructure in place.
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:01 am
I agree with giving EV/EREV owners perks. It might not make the hybrid owners happy though since it would make sense to take away their perks (HOV lane, special parking spaces, etc.). Hybrid is too mainstream now.
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:03 am
I’m optimistic that people will learn quickly from friends as well as dealers once there are real cars available.
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:04 am
Off topic, but I wanted to let my friends on this site who are crazy about cars like me, know about the Lemay Auto Museum, which I visited last Saturday. It is in Tacoma, Washington.
In short, it is the world’s greatest car collection (not to mention motorcycles, military equipment, farm equipment, buses, fire trucks, gas pumps, signs, etc. etc.)
It was all collected by one man, Harold Lemay, and unassuming regular guy who made it big in the garbage business.
Ok, I could go on and on, but if you ever want to be totally blown away by cars of all makes and types, from the earliest cars on up to the 70s’ you MUST go to this place at least once in your life. (I have been there 5 times to their annual open house and classic car meet and I still see new things I never saw before).
I guarantee you won’t be disappointed and will probably be talking about this place for the rest of your life. It is simply awesome.
Here is the link:
http://www.lemaymuseum.org/
Every year, on the last Saturday in August, they open the Lemay grounds and let you walk through Lemay’s collection in his various storage buildings, barns, garages, etc. Then you can go over to the collection that is open year around too. His wife collected dolls and other stuff too, so if you want to bring your wife and kids there’s plenty to see.
The city of Tacoma, recognizing what a fabulous collection they have in their own backyard (well, ok, Harold’s back yard really) are building a dedicated Museum that will have a rotating display of about 300 of his cars.
I was reading one of the newspaper articles on the wall in one of his buildings, and the reporter asked him if there was anything he didn’t collect or should have acquired. He said he alway thought he didn’t collect enough Ford’s. So someone counted the Ford’s in his collection – 179! By itself, that is the Worlds’ greatest Ford collection. He has probably every domestic make and most foreign makes too. And he has oddball cars too, like an extensive collection of Bantam’s and many historically significant cars that have belonged to world leaders and celebrities.
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:05 am
I would say that you are assuming that the Global Warming crowd has below average intelegence. I am not arguing one way or the other, I am just pointing out the logic.
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:07 am
Barriers at the moment of purchase hold people back a lot, often more than is rational.
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:14 am
I agree they might not be rational but I can hear the wife now….
Are you kidding me. You want to spend what. and now we need to hire Mr GoodWire to come out to the house and install a what? The dealer said this could burn down the garage if not done properly.
How about that nice little cruze over there. It looks much cheaper and runs on gas….
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:18 am
PS:
http://projectgetready.com/city/raleigh-north-carolina
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:19 am
In the eng dept here at work we try to design on KISS. we used to say idiot proof until someone pointed out that the developpment cycle for idiots was faster than our product cycle…ALWAYS!!
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:23 am
Out here in California, both SDG&E (San Diego) and SCE (Southern Californa) utilities are installing smart meters, so Volt owners will be able to take advantage of the low night time rates. Additionally many older houses have been retrofitted with air conditioning which required upgrading the electrical supply. And anyone who can afford a Volt can afford to have their garage wired for 220.
Bottom line, all this “infrastructure” stuff appears simply an effort to gain an additional revenue stream – the Volt home charging package.
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:23 am
There is a dark side to being able to be plugged in at work. For the person who uses up the majority of their charge driving one way plugging in at work makes sense both to them and to society overall because of the decreased use of gasoline. But what about the person who uses only 1/2 their charge? It will makes sense to them as well to plug in at work and get the free charge and perhaps to give them a cushion for running errands etc. but to society this will be a negative. Because with all this charging at work (assumedly during the day) the advantage of using a largely under utilized grid at night is gone.
If work places put in fee based charging stations then this will help make sure people charge at home that can because their off peak rates will be cheaper than charging at work. But if the charging at work is free – and I am guessing it will be for lots of people – then we will have diminished one of the advantages of an electric vehicle.
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:28 am
Remember that there are too many DIYers, (not that there is anythign wrong with that) but all too often limits are exceeded. Many old homes have a 60 amp service, this is a limitation and a very real one.. I lived in such a home and if the oven was on, we could not use the A/C…total amperage exceeded the service breaker. Would shut the whole house down.
What they are trying to acheive here is permits and inspection of the charging equipment, not GM coming into the house, but making sure your service can realistically handle it. They will likely not care who does it, so long as it is done to code, and inspected.
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:31 am
“This is why were so big on infrastructure. Number one to see if we can bring additional benefits to the customer, and to build this thing for the future so we can engage partners and build new opportunities that I can’t tell you about yet. Once your in someone’s home what kind of things well be able to do and you say to yourself, this is more than just a car.”
Did anybody pay attention to this las statement???? What is Tony talking about hear????
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:48 am
I think the infrastructure GM should be concentrating on is appartment buildings, work place, rest areas, and a long list of places such as shopping and parking lots. Most who live in a private home will have few problems plugging in.
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:49 am
It’s time for some boldness. First things first. Accelerating past a possible “chicken and egg” scenario, I will be going to my Credit Union today to get initial guidelines to prepare to purchase a Volt next year. Many financial institutions have financial advisers. (While no, I’m not expecting any to know anything about Volt, but certainly they know about what it will take to finance any car).
Then, I will contact my neighbor three doors up the street who is a really great Licensed Electrician. I will ask him what my cost will be for *both* a dedicated 120 volt outlet, as well as a dedicated 240 volt outlet,
************
BOTH
************
of which he will install
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NEXT WEEK
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Then, I will clear out the remainder of the no-longer-used stuff in the garage to make it nearly empty looking.
The old brown astroturf (12 years ago) that I had placed on the floor (to catch grease spots from cars I had worked on), will be removed, and replaced with new astroturf. The garage will again look like someone’s living room when the garage door is opened.
What GM needs is to see “proactivity” out here on our parts.
That way, it will be a far easier (and fairer) way, in part, for GM to be able to select the buyers for Voltec vehicles (although there are no guaranties, of course). None of us ought to complain if we are not preparing.
While yes, “What if I spend that money on the outlet(s) and I can’t get a Volt?” Maybe not for a year or two, but going to your financial institution if you need to in order to determine your financial feasibility for next year is a smart start before spending the money on the outlet(s). And, the more it costs to do right, the later you should consider doing it. My outlets will be two feet away from the garage main breaker box, so I’m fortunate there.
C’mon guys ‘n gals, that ought to be the minimum we ought do in response to what tremendously pro-active VOLTec things GM has done.
We all see every day what GM is doing. Isn’t if fair to have GM begin to see what WE ARE DOING? Of course it is.
Why should GM carry the entire “ball of wax” without any of us needing to perform anything at all. That’s ridiculous. There should be this very quick trend *away* from this marketer’s genre’ of
***********************************************************************
IT’S ALL ABOUT ME, THE CONSUMER ALMIGHTY.
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“u-tube” “u-verse” “u-deserve a break today” “aren’t u-special”.
**marketer’s bull**
(Brainwashed-egocentricity that’s not always easy to escape).
So, here’s the plan. Go to your financial institution and see if you can get ready based on their trusted advice. If they say not yet, then ask, “How can I get ready”, and write down the answers right there. You have about a year to get ready.
Then, if you are able to get a tentative and comfortable “yes”, start to look around for a Licensed electrician if you already don’t know of one. Charging for 4 to 8 hours at 8 to 12 amps *** every night *** may not overload any non-dedicated old circuit, but it may wear it out a little sooner.
So, start with a newly-installed dedicated circuit by a licensed electrician. That, (based on your financial “ducks lined up” already), might be one of several more very first steps that GM might need for us to be considered for the very first limited editions.
This sort of logic for an enhanced chance for “selection privilege” would make some sense for the process, it seems to me, even if circumstances delay the availability for us.
I’ll take the chance on the cost of both those outlets to be installed, no problem!! GM’s been taking those exact sorts of chances for at least a decade, as Mr. Posawatz has detailed for us.
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:50 am
So why can’t I just ad another 3 way spliter on my plug so can plug in my volt and all my other crap?????????????????
;>)
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August 31st, 2009 at 8:52 am
RB and nb,
I must be missing something here. The Volt has a “smart plug” that “knows” if it’s a 110 or 220 and draws current accordingly. If someone wants to charge off a regular outlet, it’s possible, no?
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:00 am
I think this topic is being blown way out of proportion. In the minimum charge configuration, the Volt is no different than your daughter’s hair dryer. Are we really suggesting that if John Q. Public’s daughter and wife BOTH have hair dryers that he is completely stumped as to how to plug them in? I think he’ll figure it out. If you live in an old farmhouse with below present day standard wiring, it’s not like you can’t charge your new Volt. It will just charge slower. That’s all. No big deal. A lot of hot air in this topic but I don’t see a fire! And to the person who suggested that your home would have to be certified by Mr. Goodwire before they would let you buy a Volt, does your spaceship have enough fuel to get you back to your planet? I mean, come on!
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:06 am
Actually, if GM is successful to help get a better infrastructure, everybody win, including their competitor and yet GM seems to be the only to understand this aspect. You have to respect GM for this.
I guess they did learn from the EV1
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:10 am
I am pointing out that the worry over the old farm house is misplaced. Of course the Volt will be easy to plug in at home and of course you might need a dedicated circuit.
IMO, GM should work on making it easy to plug in at the Mall parking garage, Hotels and Motels, and at work. Now that would make EV’s easier to adopt for many and lets face it, the infrastructure for electrical circuits is not rocket science.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:11 am
Of course Tag.
The 110 plug will go into a standard wall plug.
The 220 will be wall mounted with it’s own dedicated circuit.
(Which should totally mitigate the old wiring issue.)
The concern and it is a real one for the ‘big numbers’ gen 2 and 3 cars, is that not all homes and yes particularly older homes have modern electrical infrastructure that can handle the rather substantial load of charging a Volt. Think “hair dryer” type draw, but for a few hours. Heating of older wiring ‘could’ be an issue at that sort of load over an extended period of time.
The more expensive Gen 1 cars will be purchased by fairly well to do people who likely live in newer homes where this should be a non-issue. I would think that most Gen 1 buys would put in a 220 line, I will.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:13 am
The more public plug outlets, the more the more I can maximize pure EV driving. It’s also good EV marketing to see a bunch of cars plugged in.
Regarding plugging in at home, i think its good to make sure stuff is up to code. I also think there’s more going on than just providing juice.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:16 am
GM MUST tell people to have their electrical up to code.
Otherwise somebody is going to ‘bodge’ their connector onto their dryer plug burn the house down and blame GM.
You know this to be true.
Actually I take that comment as a very positive sign of the car coming! If there WASN’T a real car they would have no reason to start damage control!
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:17 am
Yup. I don’t know too many of those around where I live.
Mine was built in 1992 and can easily support it.
But Connecticut is old, relative to the United States.
But my wife’s cousin bought a 1950’s house that had 60 amp service.
She couldn’t use a microwave until she upgraded her service.
She chose to upgrade to 200 amp service.
I would think that most people today want to use a microwave oven.
Being not as knowledgeable as I should be when it comes to amperage service, I am assuming people will need at least 100 amps. Am I wrong? Will the minimum need to be 200 amp service?
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:17 am
Quoting Tony Posawatz, GM’s Volt vehicle line engineer.
“We’ve learned, and we so much want to make this work we are not missing anything.
We are negotiating with some prominent companies to get the home ready… house installations, or if you want the plug moved or a dedicated circuit or a special meter or 220V.
No we will actively be involved in setting the requirements for a partner. There are companies that did the EV-1.
In the showroom we want to have a system available in parallel to get the house ready.”
********************
To me, this sounds like your chevy dealer will have a Mr Goodwire ready to go out and setup your house for you.
I can hear the slimy dealer now, who gets part of Mr. Goodwire’s profits, telling you that you better be careful. Electrical fires are a real problem
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:22 am
At least you do not live in Arkansas. We may be the last to get a Volt.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:22 am
nb and Muddy
So basically homes will largely be a “non-issue”. As more and more major MFG’s get their wheels on the road the infrastructure “in the wild” (parking garages, malls, etc) will follow. Of course, some areas will get out ahead of the curve like NC (Of all places!). If you Google Plugin infrastructure and +”NC” you’ll get pages of their initiatives. VERY cool.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:25 am
There are 10K Volts due out in 2011. Just how much effect do you think that has on anything?
Nearly Zilch. There are 160million or so cars already on the road in the US.
If you want to make a difference today, put a significant tax on oil, today, and then raise it significantly every year. THAT will cut oil use. People will car-pool, they will plan their trips better, they will use mass transit, they will keep their tires properly inflated, there will be millions of changes to individual behavior that will cut oil consumption IMMEDIATELY.
And the long-term effect is that companies will build EVs to meet a new demand for them. In a climate where traditional motor fuel has a heavy penalty, people will turn to EVs. In that environment, EVs won’t be a risk and GM will likely schedule a bigger build. Other companies will bring new EVs – and new vehicle designs – onto the market, pronto.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:26 am
I agree. But this is also a point the dealer should stress to buyers.
I honestly don’t see a reason why someone who spent $40,000 on a car, couldn’t afford a couple hundred bucks for a dedicated circuit.
Also if I may be so bold (and I don’t mean to be politically incorrect, but that is how it is going to come out) someone who can afford to spend $40K on a car is probably an educated person. They should understand the concept of tripping a circuit and why it should be dedicated for the Volt.
I honestly mean no offense by my statements above.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:28 am
I have a question. I have a home that was beefed up to 200amps, a 220v outlet right in the garage being used by our dryer. Would it be as simple as unplugging the dryer and using the 220v outlet for my Volt at night? Hope so!…
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:30 am
It would have to meet the SAE code that was just developed. And you would have to have a compliant 220V charger.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:32 am
sounds like somebody has a case of the “mondays”
lol… j/k
GM should concentrate a little more on informing the public about EVs and specifically EREVs since they may be one of the very few EREVs being mass produced. I compare it to new technologies to do “old” things. The microwave and electric ranges, for example, took a long time to catch on from the old gas-burning stoves. GM cannot afford to wait a long time for the Volt to catch on.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:34 am
The GM supplied 110v cord is twenty feet. (refer to the chat last week.) http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
The cord looks to be ‘orange-e’.
It’s really is a poor idea to use an extension cord for any high power application. A better plan would be to add a plug near the Volts intended resting spot.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:36 am
Yes, and build an EV infrastructure at the same time.
We have a very ubiquitous gasoline infrastructure here.
It took decades to make it so.
We’ll need government help and incentive to get an EV infrastructure built quickly. We spend billions and billions of dollars on foreign countries every year. We could spend some of that money building an infrastructure and helping Americans for a change. We can keep the money here.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:45 am
Very BOLD of you Dan!
I did the clean the garage part yesterday but will wait on running the power since I need to have the 220 charger in my possesion to properly install it anyway.
I do have a trusted master electrician to tie it all in for me (my dad) so when the time comes and the car is ordered I’ll have the garage ready before the car gets here.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:48 am
I’ve been saying that for a long time, if you can afford a Gen 1 Volt then you can afford to have dedicated power run to your garage.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:49 am
dagwood55
It is a shame you can not live for a couple of years as one of the working poor. You need to know what it is like to worry everyday if your job will be there tomorrow and even if it is how can you afford to buy a different car to get to that job or even buy the gas to run it on.
You need to worry about how you can afford the fuel oil [or in a worse case] the kerosene to heat your small place during winter. And while living this way you hear about those who think the answer to everything is to raise taxes.
Those of us on this site most likely do not live in that world. But some of us do remember it and have compassion for those who still do.
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August 31st, 2009 at 9:52 am
If an older home has a very old ~60 amp (low power) service that home owner ‘may’ have issues if they don’t upgrade that service.
Although it’s possible the Volts charger will be smart enough to ‘throttle’ charging, I do not know whether it will have that ability.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:00 am
It’s soundling like they are recommending a dedicated circuit with direct tie-in, so likely no.
Once again, if you can afford a $40k-ish car you can afford a couple hundred bucks to install the charger properly.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:01 am
Europe has had high fuel taxes for years and the US seems to be leading the way in EV development.
Go figure.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:05 am
Yes, you are right, GM should focus on explaining the EREV concept to people moreso than worrying about a charging infrastructure. If anyone should be worried about charging infrastructure, it should be the pure BEV crowd…I’m looking at you Nissan, Tesla, Mitsu.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:14 am
Agreed, nuclearboy. This is something I just don’t understand. They should be way ahead of us on this.
Old man, well said. I grew up that way. My parents struggled. They taught me to go to school, earn a good living, and not struggle. I paid off my house in 5.5 years and will coast through life now at the age of 45.
I do, however, have college to pay for in about 7 years for two kids.
That will hurt a bit since they are only a year a part.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:16 am
If you live in a ‘47 farm house but can afford a $40,000 – $100,000 (with dealer mark ups) Volt, you can afford to have a dedicated circuit installed the ol’ farmhouse. You will also be tech savvy enough to understand the load problem and not blame GM for the crappy wiring in your house.
Again, much ado about nothing.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:17 am
Tom
To me it is more than just a car. It is the begining of the end of big oil controlling our day to day living and the beginning of the end of us funding both sides of the war on terror.
It is a step we can make to try to end or at least slow down global warming [I know it has a gas engine]. But for most of us that ICE will see little use.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:18 am
The local colleges better start gearing up for all the electrical infrastructure upgrades that are going to need to be done in the next 20 years. Electrical engineers and electricians will be in high demand. Tell your kids to study electrical engineering, battery science, and chemical engineering. They might make more than the attorneys and doctors before long. America is going to need them to match all the engineers coming out of college in Asia.
I bet a bunch of small businesses in every town are created to handle the demand for electrical system upgrades. Companies that “get in on the ground floor” and make a name for themselves will probably make plenty of money. Cars like the Volt and other plug-ins will be a definite driver for “green jobs”. That and the “smart grid”.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:19 am
LOL!
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:19 am
It’s not safe to use any extension cord.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:21 am
The farmhouse example might not have been the best but his point is well taken. Most circuits are 15 or 20 amp. If you plugged a big hair dryer and the Volt into one of those circuits it might well trip the circuit or the gfi. I may be more sensitive to this because the main outlet in the garage (the one it would be most natural to use for the Volt) is on the same circuit as the downstairs bathroom. Others aren’t, but even those circuits have been tripped by workmen using power tools.
You’re right that this is a transient issue, but to get to the other side you have to get through the transition. Most people don’t have problems with appliances that draw a lot of power, say a microwave or stove or a washer/dryer, because the house was either wired for them or they’ve been rewired for them. EVs are going to be a new addition so the existing wiring won’t accommodate them nearly as easily.
Obviously springing for a dedicated 240 charger would be ideal. This would be simple for me because the laundry is on the other side of the garage wall and we have a gas dryer. But others might not find it so easy. The panel might be maxed out, and its even possible that the service to the entire house needs to be upgraded (some people who have put in solar systems need to do this).
Were we to be so lucky, with the 240 service I’d also worry about a bunch of people plugging their Volts/EVs in all at the same time. This could blow the neighborhood transformer.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:22 am
Good point. All the high fuel taxes in the world didn’t bring EVs to Europe or Japan. Nor did it squash new car sales and force everybody into mass transit.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:24 am
Funny how it comes back to lack of trust in the dealer network isn’t it?
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:28 am
This is why it is paramount that the participating Chevy dealers have an educated sales force that actually knows about what they are selling. This will be tougher than the infrastructure problem for GM solve! LOL At the point of sale the consumer should be made aware of the car’s charging requirements [b]before[/b] the sale.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:30 am
Rashiid
You and I have about the same story and I am pleased you are also blessed with compassion for those who did not get away from poverty’s grip.
I would be all for a tax on oil if we can come up with a way to protect the working poor. Maybe a tax type credit card that would pay the taxes and leave them oweing the amount of the nontaxed product.
College cost are a great investment in your family. But,dang how high can they go? Glad those cost are also behind me!!
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:31 am
I have been to Europe many times and do notice that they have a great train system and usually the cities have better metro systems than in the US.
The high gas prices may have pushed people into mass transit a little more. Of course you must add “no where to park” and “small streets” in the cities to the mix.
None the less,
The electric cars, if they had been viable prior to this time, should have been popular in Europe.
I take this to mean that EV’s really have not been practical up until this time. The batteries just were not ready in the past and they are just barely getting there now.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:32 am
dagwood55,
So your suggestion is to do nothing then?
10000 Volts seems like a good start to me, it will not change the world in year 1, but it might just show the path to real change. Conveniently the 60k planned production number for year 2 and so on was omitted from your comment.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:33 am
Dan,
Don’t forget that you don’t need a 240 volt outlet, you need a 240 volt junction box for the VOLT cable. GM is making it clear that their cable must be hard wired and not plugged in.
The junction box size/type, 240 volt circuit breaker amperage and wire size will be the critical details.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:33 am
Tom,
Probably V2H and V2G (vehicle to home, vehicle to grid). Gen 2, 3, or 4 will allow you to run your house off the car, etc
Hope this helps,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:37 am
Dan,
By chance alone, I’m one step ahead of you. I have the dedicated 220 line ready (from an existing, but no longer used Hot tub). And it’s RIGHT by the garage (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:40 am
Dagwood55
Beyond a doubt you live in a metro area where there is 150 years of infrastructure available.
Your proposal would place an enormous tax on the farmers, ranchers, and others that live out in the sticks where it might be 75 miles to the nearest mass transit.
Of course, in your way of thinking, all people could be required to live within five blocks of mass transport.
I don’t know where you can justify that in the Constitution.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:40 am
Gen 1 buyers will be going in with their eyes wide open. They will be hard to get and they will be pretty educated about the car and it’s operation.
The later generation car buyers (as production and sales ramp up) will possibly require an EV primer so they understand what they are getting into. This could be done in an intelligent fashion that doesn’t insult the customer. Possibly in a multimedia documentry style movie. Either the disk comes with the car so they can watch it at home or there is a Volt Experience video room at the dealer. (Maybe both)
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:41 am
We have not succeeded on E85 yet its a really cleaver idea. I’m not referring to corn but the more advanced stuff.
This is a great point. E85 is a viable option which really needs to be pursued, but at this point in time we still don’t have a single E85 station where I live. Given that supposedly we’ll have 1000 public EV charging stations by the end of next year this is insane.
E85 has significantly more potential in the near term to reduce petroleum usage. I’d like to see more infrastructure for it.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:46 am
The point isn’t the 10,000 Volts that GM is coming out with in 2011. It’s the, hopefully, 60,000 they will come out with in 2012. And 2013, 2014, etc. Not to mention the 100,000+ BEVs Nissan’s planning on coming out with in a similar time period. And the other EVs and PHEVs that numerous other companies are planning to come out with.
As a country we need to think ahead if we hope to reduce our use of foreign oil. Personally, I don’t think we do anywhere near enough of that.
I’m all for raising the gasoline tax. But we also need to help people by funding a better alternative. This country is too auto dependent to think that driving less and swapping compact cars for SUVS is going to be a long term solution. It will help. But it’s not even close to being enough.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:48 am
Very Cool.
There is a similar place in Wetaskiwin Alberta. (Near Edmonton)
http://www.machinemuseum.net/
The Reynolds-Alberta Museum.
They have everything from Farming equipment, to a Baker Electric, to a Duesy (wow!) To a real dragline outside (those things are HUGE!) Not to mention the Canadian Aircraft hall of fame. (some beautiful aircraft on display both inside and out.)
When I was ther they had a salute to the Model T show happening. I had no idea the model T had been made into so many things!
Definately worth a stop.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:48 am
WTF?
The infrastructure is everywhere!
Why is GM trying to “please all of the people all of the time”? When has that strategy worked? Who’s going to pay for all this “Charging infrastructure”? More taxes for the public or higher premium for utility carriers? This is a crock of sh|t. If you don’t have the means to charge the car or if you are NOT willing to fork up the $$$ to get charging at home then this is not the car for you. One has to be smart enough to understand whether or not they have the means to charge, if not, then guess what, you’ll be driving in CS mode most of the time.
What a stupid a$$nine thing to come out and say “If you live in a 1947 farmhouse in Connecticut and you want to plug it in”, crecibility shot to pigsh|t. Who are you trying to kid here? If you can afford a $43,000.00 car, you should be able to afford at least $1500 for an electrician to wire you a dedicated circuit for charging. I dunno anyone living in those households and have a >$40,000.00 car do you guys? If your dumb enough to buy one and you don’t have the means to charge than you’re on your own, duh. That’s like going to buy a pool pump, filter and chlorine and you don’t have a pool.
In the words of statik, “I have a plug in my garage and I know how to use it.”.
Bullsh|t comments like these just burns my a$$. All they want to do is have some grand PR opening of charge stations to help “greenify” themselves. Just get the friggin Volt out to the public already!!!
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:50 am
A gas tax doesn’t have to hurt the working poor. We could structure it as a (partially) revenue neutral tax, and give people under a certain income a tax credit for the amount. Many of the working poor might even be better off than they were before.
That way we keep the higher price of gas (and increase people’s incentive to conserve), reduce the deficit, and help those less fortunate at the same time.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:53 am
I don’t think so. The charger has to be hard wired. So you wouldn’t be able to unplug the dryer and plug in the Volt. It would be more of a “one or the other” type situation.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:54 am
DaV8or Reply:
If you live in a ‘47 farm house but can afford a $40,000 – $100,000 (with dealer mark ups) Volt, you can afford to have a dedicated circuit installed the ol’ farmhouse. You will also be tech savvy enough to understand the load problem and not blame GM for the crappy wiring in your house.
Again, much ado about nothing.
______________________
Wow, definitely no assumptions in that statement of fact!!!!
No crystal ball needed for wider acceptance of electric vehicles, no correspondence between driving the prices down in gen II and III, having cheaper Voltecs sold in the near future and a much broader buying public and their problems and needs with the technology to take into account.
Yup GM should rush forward with their eyes wide shut and blindfolds on and let the dust settle where it may. Nothing ensures success like a good plan to do absolutely nothing.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:54 am
Denmark has a %100 tax on cars (new and used sales) plus very high oil taxes. Most people (Most meaning over %50) ride bikes or take public transit. I do find it interesting that they didn’t pioneer mass EV production but instead went for free or public transit.
On a side note, Denmark has some of the most beautiful women in the world and it’s no surprise why they’re in such good shape when so many of them bike or walk everywhere they go. You can’t stop at any corner in copenhagen during rushour without seeing at least one woman in a skirt or a mother with a kid or two in a trailer attached to her bike.
When you do see cars, a lot of them are micro diesels that use less fuel than a prius.
I’m not advocating we should go to bicycles (although it may solve some of the rising health care costs) or microcars but it is interesting that high oil and car ownership costs didn’t spur innovation. And that people figure out other ways to travel. It’s not like Denmark has great weather (comparable to Seattle)
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:55 am
The eurpean nations use more mass transit and bicycles, very efficient cars and DIESELS..the bulk energy is in heating systems.
For example, a fuel oil boier system (typical in90% of homes in Europe) in Germany must be inspected annually. Fail you have 30 days to fix, or they TAKE IT OUT. it is MANDATED 90% heating efficiency..everywhere everyone.
They are ahead of us..remember most countries are smaller than many states…travel by mass transit is way ahead of us (just go there and take the train..I did it for 3 weeks. AMAZING rail system)
the auto in Europe is a passion, is important, but like here..4 cars, most SUVs for mom 1 kid and the dog… there 1 car, maybe 2..
WE are energy pigs…
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:56 am
My trailer park has outlets. We’re plug-in-ready.
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August 31st, 2009 at 10:58 am
” somebody is going to ‘bodge’ their connector onto their dryer plug burn the house down and blame GM.”
BINGO!!
I work in HVAC and a customers basement flooded one time vecuase of rain..they said it was due to the PVC flue pipe onthe high efficiency furnace we installed…you do not sue anyone..you look for deep pockets..
America, land of the lawsuit…clogging our judicial system because NOTHING is EVER your fault…
Lady justice is not blind…she recently gouged her eyes out in shame…
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:00 am
Good morning Captain!
It’s a clear day for sailing I hope!
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:00 am
This is pretty negative! The reason for having a partner would be to benefit you as a consumer. This isn’t a profit center for GM. GM wants to ensure that the person doing the install understands the product, understands what needs to be done, has the required licenses, is bonded, and is competent to do the work.
I see this as a great service. If by some chance there is a fire you definitely want a licensed contractor to have done the work if for no reason other than your insurance company won’t pay if it wasn’t.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:01 am
I cant drive to work on my daughter hair dryer, lol
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:01 am
“The local colleges better start gearing up for all the electrical infrastructure upgrades that are going to need to be done in the next 20 years.”
That’s an easy one. Every parking lot at the colleges have light poles to illuminate at night. They also have powered metered parking that run on 120VAC. Retrofit a fraction of the poles/meters with a 120VAC charge port and call it done. Infrastructure is everywhere.
Put a check box on this item, it’s done. But who’s to pay for this? GM? Nope, take a guess.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:02 am
I’ve met quite a few people with “more money than brains.” It’s a very big stretch to assume anyone with money is also a)educated, and//or b)intelligent. And it’s an even bigger stretch to assume that anyone is one of those things will automatically know about circuit breaking.
I, for one, have several degrees. And, to be honest, I never really thought about circuits or power breaking. To me, an electric appliance is something you buy, and then you bring it home and plug it in. (By the way, I’ve never blown a circuit.)
If the dealer told me about it, then, yes, I would understand the concept. And I would be more than willing to spend the couple hundred dollars. (Although in New York, I suspect I’d have to pay a lot more than that to have it installed.) But the dealer would probably have to warn me.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:06 am
lol…
long time no post 4 me. Been out for a while in training (isolated network) and furloughs.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:07 am
Old man, you are so correct. I was looking for someone to mention this, because the nightly VOLT charge will require living in a location where a minimum of a 120 volt outlet is nearby. Long extension cords are not going to be popular or allowed by property managers. Can you imagine the blown circuits when people use a screw-in adapter in a nearby outdoor light fixture. It’s an ungrounded circuit that some will try to use, but most likely would be overloaded when trying to charge a car through it.
Government tax credits for 240 volt electric car charging station infrastructure would help get apartment owners and developers up to speed quickly. Give 100% credit and a deadline to get the projects finished fast. A law is needed to require a certain percentage of charging stations, just like the disabled parking spaces are required by code today.
Who pays for this electric usage? A huge market for pay per charge stations seems likely, unless continued credits or subsidies would be available from local, state or federal governments.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:09 am
Personally, I am going to stick with the 120VAC charge port or onboard. Although I do have access to a 240VAC, the charge times won’t benefit me. I prefer to sit for a while with my beer while the car charges.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:09 am
This one seems pretty easy…..
Local Chevy Dealers sets up a list of local electrical contractors who can do the work; maybe with some kind of discount or coupon; then refers that work out to the local economy. A win-win for all!
Oh rats! I forgot….. Lutz wants local dealers out of the equation by selling VOLTs through eBay where they won’t give a rat’s A$$ about Customer Satisfaction or follow-up service revenue….
Nevermind.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:09 am
Wow…you guys are so smart and know all. I am in awe of you all…. except…
Sorry to burst your confidence bubble but many of the homes in Silicon Valley, for example, which were built in the 40’s. 50’s and 60’s sell for $400,000 and up. Silicon Valley has the cash, the will and the reputation to push electric cars and will likely be one of the first areas to get the Volt. It is already the home of Tesla. The wiring in these homes is old and much work has to be done to bring them up to snuff. Don’t jump to conclusions that you have little or no actual knowledge of.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:10 am
Obviously charging will be an issue. Where I live, Nissan will do a free install of home chargers for the first 1000 people who buy a Leaf.
http://www.kpbs.org/news/2009/aug/27/electric-cars-san-diego/
Maybe GM will consider something similar for the 500 Volts that the DOE is funding as part of the test. As a FYI, the estimated cost for getting one of these devils installed is $500 for the hardware plus installation costs.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:12 am
Toyota got HOV sticker from California for the Prius. And there are still hybrids (Prius and otherwise) on the road that have the sticker. So, I, for one, think it’s unfair that GM won’t get them for the Vot.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:13 am
This quote from “2001: A Space Odyssey” just sprang to mind.
“Look Dave, I can see you’re really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.”
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:14 am
The amount of educating by dealers and their interaction with the larger community and how GM itself carries on from where dealers leave off and where GM partners carry on form there is part of GM’s infrastructure issues.
From the article: “We are negotiating with some prominent companies to get the home ready… house installations, or if you want the plug moved or a dedicated circuit or a special meter or 220V.”
And “The electric company is a driver of special benefits too. People would be losing out. Wouldn’t you want someone to set a standard that EV drivers get the best parking or the HOV lane? This helps mitigate the initial cost because you get the extra value. You may get free charging.”
What if all the cities or states around you get these and you don’t, are you going to be happy? What if power companies have night time use discounts for everyone but your area, and instead you get hit with a surcharge for your Volt because it moves you into a higher usage category? Will you want to tell GM don’t worry about it just sell the Volts. Or would you want them to lobby for better rates?
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:14 am
“Bottom line, all this “infrastructure” stuff appears simply an effort to gain an additional revenue stream – the Volt home charging package.”
Truedat!
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:15 am
I believe that this is what they are working on. There is still an EV1 charging station at LAX. Don’t know that it works anymore but the stations were still there a year ago.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:16 am
lol….
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:17 am
This makes little to no sense and seems needlessly geographically discriminatory. My money is just as green as anybody else’s money.
If GM is so concerned about house wiring, then why did they design a 120V charger that you could plug into a household outlet? They should have stuck with the 240V only so people would have to get a separate circuit. Sounds to me like GM is creating another topic of blame when very few Volts are produced and sold. “We could make more Volts if only the infrastructure was available.”
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:17 am
It may be even simpler than what you’ve suggested. All the gas tax proposals I’ve seen couple that tax with a reduction in payroll taxes so as to be revenue neutral.
That said, there will be no gas tax. Cap&Trade is on the table. Gas taxes are not.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:18 am
The Prius qualifies for HOV stickers like any other car, and any manufacturer with a big battery will qualify the buyer for tax credits. Let the competition begin!!!!
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:19 am
Well put Laura!
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:20 am
I agree this should be GM’s long term goal for the Volt and its siblings. They must work on infrastructure changes, but that will not happen over night. It will take years, maybe a couple or three decades. And a lot of cost. But none of this should drive which city gets the first Volts because no city is going to have that type of infrastructure changes in place. Sure, some of them will make the commitment and have some progress made toward achieving it, but it is unrealistic to think that it can be accomplished within the next 18 months. So, some other factor or factors will determine the cities where the Volt will be released. GM needs to be more upfront with us about this. Just come out and name the cities. We know they will be large cities with Washington, DC selected for political reasons. I think most of us could name the cities if asked to submit a list of names.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:24 am
Hey, welcome back. Were you on vacation?
I do think the charging issue is far less of an issue for the Volt than for a BEV. If your circuit trips and you don’t get a charge, or only get a partial charge, then it’s no big deal with EREV. That’s one of the beauties of the design.
But having the ability to get a fast charge would be worth it. So you’d have two chargers: one hard wired at home and one in the trunk so you could “steal” a charge as you drank those beers in your car with your beautiful companion.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:24 am
What’s the difference, all big batteries with plugs?
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:24 am
How does this differ from the statement that “anyone who can afford a $40k car can afford to install the plug to support it”?
If this requires upgrading the service to the home then they likely needed it anyway to support the big screen TV.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:24 am
Or, it could be on a memory chip in the dash video that replaces the owner’s manual.
To me (an electrician licensed to do residential) it’s no big thing. To most people, electricity, telephones, DVRs etc are ‘magic boxes’ and they have no clue how it works.
Fortunately, they don’t have to know. There are people able and willing to assist for a price.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:25 am
Chicken and egg issue or it’ll happen when it happens issue???
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:26 am
Good question. I wish I had the answer, but I don’t. I built my house in 1986. I don’t remember what type of amperage it has, but I am sure it was the “norm” for 1986. I guess I could ask my cousin, the Master Electrician. He could tell me very quickly.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:28 am
Could Volt dealerships as part of the sale include a 220v installation at the buyer’s home? This might be like the rollout of satellite television when mobile electricians provided “free” home dish installation.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:28 am
The posts here realize a vast disparity between having a home with garage and living in an apartment. Which brings us to the highlight photo showing a street-pole mounted charger facility – the heart of the issue. We have here an open cable between the J-box & car. Possibly in certain protected areas. However, on the scale of parking meter distribution – no way. Ask any city attorney about open live cables being exposed at ground level to unsupervised access. Weather, vandalism, related homeland defense issues, accidents – both being the result and being the cause and then all the electrical codes. Bottom line: charging stations will be limited. Not in the same way gas stations are controlled, but limited to either commercial areas or areas with controlled access. Some apartments are and some aren’t. The Volt marketing folks have a truly historic challenge. This raises an argument for the ER engine to be able to in certain circumstances enable a standalone charge.
And its this kind of logic that propels the alternative concept of battery swapping. Of course, no major auto mfg is pursuing this alternative concept at this time.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:30 am
There’s already a bunch of companies that see an “electric car world” coming SOON … all over the world.
http://earth2tech.com/2009/08/31/13-electric-car-smart-charging-players-to-watch/
They’re doing their R&D and training their people and so forth. They’re going to be the guys that build the replacements for gasoline pumps … or at least downsize the gasoline pump industry somewhat in the short run. A lot of us Volt owners who drive under 40 miles will forget what it’s like to get that big whiff of gasoline fumes when you have to pump gas every week or so. Less tailpipe emissions to have to inhale too.
No doubt, you’ll be seeing a lot of new “electricity pumps” everywhere in the next 20 years. It should be a big industry before long. Electric cars will eventually reach a “tipping point” and then it’ll really explode. Smart charging stations in every parking garage and every parking lot maybe.
Maybe by 2015 or so, they can make the charging stations WIRELESS. Fewer electrical cords to have to look at. Maybe some company will invent a wireless Smart Charging station that retracts up and down into the pavement (Star Trek style) in the parking lots so you won’t have to see them unless it is actively charging your car. I like new energy technologies to be as invisible and inconspicuous as possible. Make them look like small trees or bushes or something? Maybe a landscape guy can help integrate them into background a little better.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:30 am
I don’t think anyone is saying GM should go forth with the Voltec systems without a plan to convince and aid local governments and electric utilities to prepare for the future of electric vehicles. They do have a sound plan, it seems. It is just that there is no time to get all the infrastructure changes done in any city prior to the launch of the Volt in late 2010. But they are advancing down the road towards a plan and they are involving local, state and federal governments along with electric utilities. It is a good start. A lot of work is still to be done.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:31 am
People forget that the iPod was lambasted when it was first released. Half the genius of the iPod is iTunes. If GM can get communities to set up a network of convenient charging stations then they are not only going to assist in the adoption of BEV’s and EREV’s (and ensuring that their adopted charging plug becomes THE standard rather than A standard) but they will help to ensure the Volt’s success. People who buy the car WANT to use the battery… they want to plug it in. People will travel to a Starbucks to use the WiFi.. and possibly order an overpriced latte.
There are also going to be other effects. Who is to say that new businesses will not spring up around these charging stations or adapt to them (i.e. a gas station adds a power charging area for half a dozen vehicles). They know you are going to be on foot in the area for a while so you will likely do a little shopping too. People who own a Volt are likely going to have disposable income and thus be the kind of people you WANT to have park near your store. Granted, this is just the start so it will be very small, but you need to see where this could grow to in order to understand why it may be an issue for GM.
Just thinking out loud.
Harrier
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:33 am
Good point, hopefully there will be a chance to look at how the first buyers are charging to get the policy decisions right before we build out to the point of no return;
and then it’s a huge expensive fight to do things that make any sense. If every one says I don’t feel comfortable driving during the day with less than 3/4 capacity and it’s my right to charge up any time, who will volunteer to chip in for the trillions of dollars needed to upgrade the grid(s)?
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:33 am
You are not wrong but if you don’t want it then charge at 110v, the cord will be in the trunk… no problem!
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:33 am
Been out for a while in training (isolated network) and furloughs/fishing.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:34 am
A true sailor, a man of patence!
With a strong forearm!
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:35 am
You were missed my friend!
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:37 am
You have a very good point. Someone should capitalize on this.
Or put a charge port in the parking lot at H( . y . )TERS!
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:38 am
I am not part of the Global Warming crowd myself and while I find many of the things they say to be silly and somewhat stupid, I would never say there wasn’t intelligence there. They only believe one side of the story, but they are not dumb. They are no more smarter or less smart than the general population. Although I suspect most of them would disagree with me on that.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:42 am
I don’t see it that way at all.
There is no problem charging a Volt on 110v, it’ll come with the cord. This is the one that you can use pretty much anywhere to grab a quick top up.
The 220/240v charging in their garage will be an option for those who are impatient, like me!
Public charging stations as they appear will also be an option.
As for Geographically discriminatory… there will only be 10000 Volts year 1, there ain’t enough to go around the world then. So sell them in more concentrated area’s so they can service the cars properly and then roll out in a logical planned manner.
I KNOW I won’t get one for a couple years after production starts.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:45 am
“In NC, Raleigh (the state capitol but not the largest city) claims to be building infrastructure.”
- – - – - – - – - – -
RB,
Heading for NC. tomorrow. I read about a McDonald’s with a charging station in Cary * (just W. of Raleigh) w/i battery range. So I plan on driving there (for lunch) just for the Charge. Like to encourage it. Don’t think it will be too crowded!
NC. does seem to be ahead of many states in terms of PHEV’s and infrastructure. And Duke Energy is working to get “smart charging” going.
*1299 Kildaire Farm Rd.
=D~~~~
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:53 am
Thanks for the laugh. We all chuckle at the stupidity of global warming believers; especially all of those idiotic scientists at NASA and the Defense Department. I mean, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to …. umm…. oh, wait… they ARE rocket scientists! Where was I going with this again?
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:55 am
I was thinking along the lines of a live action movie with somebody famous (Tom Hanks drives an electric car for example) walking through the benefits of electric cars and the day to day usage of them.
This could include the advantages of the 220/240v charge station.
Personally I ‘could’ safely run a new circuit to my garage for the Volt myself, but I have ready access to a very experienced electrician and I’d be foolish to not use his expertise.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:58 am
“This could blow the neighborhood transformer.”
_______________________________________________
Not likely! If your charging at night, you aren’t using much electricity unless of course you stay up at night.
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
states that : There will be a portable 120 V unit (R) that can be plugged into any standard receptacle. It will be able to recharge the car fully in 6 hours at 12 amps or 8 hours at 8 amps.
and
The other device option (L) is a 240 V stationary wall-mounted unit that has to be installed in the owners garage per code. This unit running at 16 amps can recharge the Volt in 3 hours.
With only 8, 12, or 16 amps being used there wouldn’t be that much of a demand on the neighborhood transformer. The real issue is whether the customer has his house properly wired to handle what is needed within the home. With 200 amp panel serving the house, there should be several slots for breakers so that a new circuit can be added for the Volt charging. In some situations that will not be needed; where the garage is on a separate circuit, you should be able to charge the Volt as long as you don’t have some other device working at that time. You would need to check the amperage of the garage breaker. Most likely a 20 amp breaker would be preferable but a 15 amp breaker could also be used; the 240 volt charger would not work here unless a 20 amp breaker is used (240 breakers I’ve seen are 30 amp and above). The article correctly points out why GM is concerned about infrastructure; now that the driver will be using his home as “a gas station”, we don’t want homes burning down while charging your Volt because of inadequate wiring! That would be like pouring gasoline all over the house and lighting a match to it.
One poster, a while back, mentioned installing a separate circuit in his yard into which the plug could be inserted. That’s an idea that many may end up with because their garages are used for storage rather than parking their vehicle.
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August 31st, 2009 at 11:59 am
I believe his point is that GM is pushing for the build out of a public charge infrastructure though ironically the Volt is the one requiring it LEAST.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:02 pm
1) Ethanol failed because fossil fuels are still cheaper in this country.
2) Hydrogen failed because the technology is not ready nor may never be. It’s highly inefficient (4 times less than BEV technology) and costs way too much.
3) EV1 failed because the batteries were not ready. They are still not ready to have the same convenience as the standard ICE vehicle (quick charge, long life, low cost, very reliable).
So, for GM to be concentrating on the Volt owner’s home and business make great sense. That is where they will be doing most of the charging and if that works great I think the driver will have a good experience.
I have suggested many times that GM get into electrification infrastructure as Car 2.0 emerges. I hope they jump on. Huge potential global market. Simply massive.
I personally feel the best EV infrastructure concept out there right now is Better Place. Pure genius and I understand why so many people are against it. GM doesn’t understand why they keep failing but the answers are simple and right in front of their face! Why Can’t they see the value in the swap model? Nissan understood right away and is busy building the early runs of their soon-to-be massive production. It’s so obvious to many but the opposition is tremendous. It’s almost too radical of an idea and too far from the hydrogen, hybrid, EREV, plug-in BEV concepts that perhaps it’s just going to take some time and real-world verified operational evidence to be universally accepted. Nissan is now at least a year ahead and counting.
Note to GM: Guys, would it hurt to have a tiny budget for a Better Place compatible swap vehicle? You could drop it into the Israel market for early testing and say you want to satisfy ALL electrified markets. That PR is much better than saying you are covering your butt, which would also be true.
Let’s say GM does this AND Better Place is a hit, which I think it will be. GM is in the lead and then has their hand in the biggest prize of all – building out smart-grid electrification infrastructure. This multi decade project will propel and define GM for the rest of the century.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:02 pm
This is less of an issue inthe north where most parking lots already have block heater plug in’s for winter.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:13 pm
hermant,
I like the Mr Goodwire joke. GM may well want to Trade mark that.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:17 pm
kdawg,
Eventually there will be a LOT more “going on” than providing juice for the vehicle. I’m pretty sure you’ve posted about V2G etc. That’s gen 2 or 3 though. Once we hit a critical mass for storage, it’s going to get even more exciting!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:18 pm
I have been there for a week and rented a bike for getting around. I agree wtih your observations. I saw many “in-shape” people and even Grandmothers riding a bike.
I also marvelled at the tiny cars and apparent anything goes attittude when it comes to transportation.
I came back wondering why I could not buy a 1200 Lb car or at least why I never see them in the US.
We have to have tough structural vehicles to pass crash safety tests and we need curtains of airbags all around us.
In Denmark, people ride scooters with no helmet. I loved it.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:19 pm
old man,
Wouldn’t it be neat to see a movie and walk out to a basically “full” tank?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:26 pm
frankyB:
Well said. +1
I don’t know about other states, but the electric utilities in CA are taking a strong leadership role in this infrastructure issue. Hey, it’s the marketing opportunity of a lifetime for them. I also think that it is a great opportunity for small businesses and retail businesses of all kinds to make a few extra bucks, and points with their customers. I would sure put a couple of coin or credit card operated charging boxes in my parking lot. If there were enough places to “opportunity charge”, we could really kill gas consumption.
We just returned from New York. We stayed on Long Island and did not rent a car. Everywhere we went, we took the train/subway, including into Manhattan 3 times. A total, instant, culture change from the LA lifestyle.
NYC could not exist in its present state without its highly developed transit system. The road net is NOWHERE near adequate to handle any more traffic, let alone what is there already.
Even taking Tex-Ari’s point that much of the infrastructure is 150 years (well, 100 actually) old, still it is a fact that NYC achieves much of what is done in Europe. Ditto San Francisco. I assume that a lot of their basic infrastructure is pretty much the same age.
When cities gridlock to the point that there is no alternative, change will come. It’s the American way.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Amen. “Hydrogen Highway”, LOL. Vintage schwarzenegger BS.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Keep in mind that the 70,000 Volts which will be produced in 2010/11 will be a tiny drop in the bucket of overall US car sales. They will most certainly go to “early adopters”, who will be well aware of this issue. Maybe a few years, and a few hundred thousand Volts, down the road this will be a problem. But by then the public should have had enough time to “get it”.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:33 pm
And the Prius got a huge kick start in SoCal from single occupant access to the HOV lanes. So, if we can do it for Toyota, why not do it for GM, which WE own, BTW.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:37 pm
MuddyRoverBob:
Moi?? Bodge? Never, LOL!
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Tagamet:
That was my sense of what he meant as well.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:44 pm
HEYYYY!! There he is! Where ya been man? There was almost a whole thread the other day on where you were. I won’t tell you what my suspicion was, LOL.
To look at most of the trailer parks in out town, if you plugged a Volt into 220, you would probably shut the whole place down, hehehe.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:46 pm
If can replace power lines in two states in 14 day’s what concern .
Dude are you daffed it make money .
God Bless
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Really – there is another part to the story not pushed by big oil ?
When you have thousands of scientists including nobel laureats on one side and Rish Limbaugh and Sarah Palin on the other side – it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out which side is right.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:49 pm
LOL!
With the knowledge that you have a 1917 auto I will take that as sarcasm and laugh!
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Heeee’s Baaaack!
So much the better!
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Local dealers will still be delivery and service (and probably financing). eBay is just another sales vector. eBay doesn’t deliver or service squat.
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August 31st, 2009 at 12:59 pm
The only problem with that is the world arena: with a significant worsening of wars, the price of petroleum would result in the tax just making matters worse. With all the yelling and screaming by conservatives about our rising deficit and especially taxation, you are one unpopular dud! I am no conservative by their definition of the term, but I do believe in conservative principles when it comes to national debt. All aside, the price of petroleum will determine how fast we convert over to an electric economy, and I bet that we will see over $4.00 per gallon prices in 2011, possibly sooner, or even worse if the wars get worse.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Denmark’s a lot smaller than the US. And things are much closer together. So their solutions are different than ours.
That said, I agree that mass transit is the best solution. But, at this point, they have it, and we don’t. (At least not outside New York, Boston, Washington, and a couple of other places.) And it’s prohibitively expensive to build one at at this point.
The MTA (the mass transit authority in New York) has an exhibit detailing their expansions plans. The estimated price of added one more line to an already functional subway system? Over $7 billion dollars. And lots of people are expecting the price to go up.
http://newyork.timeout.com/articles/own-this-city/71547/the-future-beneath-us
That said, I think we should build more trains. I just don’t think that at this point we can build an entire rail system that can serve us as well as the ones in Europe. At least not without a trillion dollar price tag. And we don’t have that kind money right now. Maybe ever.
And even if we did? Building trains takes a really long time. We need something to use in the interim.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:05 pm
You talk a good talk. I just don’t know if Nissan and Better Place can walk a good walk. Time will tell. But I do agree it would be smart of GM to be invested in the technology in some small way. If there was success that could give them a way to expand quickly or if a failure they could get out quickly.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:06 pm
The Nissan LEAF will not have these problems. They have already addressed city infrastructure. GM is waaaaaaay behind. I guess we will just continued to see the New GM only in our rear view mirror.
nbsp; 
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Not sure why you got voted down… that’s funny!
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Sorry, but speak for yourself! Those people you refer to as sheep may have children who will no doubt be up on all this so called new technology and quite willing to help mom or dad understand it all if need be.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:10 pm
What’d be really cool is if I could get the charging cable now, instead of a couple of years from now. Just the coolness of having that cord on the wall is worth some major cred.
Plus, maybe I could register somehow with GM to show that I’m ‘Volt ready’.
BTW, GM… Where’s my Volt lid, tee-shirt and other gear? I’ve been looking and I don’t see any 230 (or other Volt) caps out there anywhere. Where’s my 1/16 scale model? I got a PT Cruiser one in WalMart well before their launch day.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Dealers all require their salesmen to read the technical literature on the vehicles they sell. You can bet that this will be no problem compared to educating the population. IMHO, it is a problem but no where near difficult to solve.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:13 pm
As I said, to the Global Warming crowd there is only one side of the story. You just proved my point very well, thank you!
Tell me what caused the many recorded warming and cooling periods that science has shown as having occurred over the millions of years? Where was big oil and big business 10 million years ago, or even 10,000 years ago. How about the small year without summer about 150 years ago?
Yes, man does contribute to global warming. It also has been determined that natural occurring CO2 from the worlds oceans and methane release is much greater that all man does. I do agree our cattle heards release too much methane. But I do remember someone in the Global Warming crowd did suggest placing equipment on each cow to catch and process the methane. It was only going to cost the farmer/rancher about $25,000 per cow and shorten the cow’s life by about one-half. But, hey, it is all good. Thank goodness some people laughed so hard at that idea that it was dropped. Quickly!
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:14 pm
My problem with this thread is that there will be only 10K 2011 Volts produced in 2010/2011. With the economy in the state it is in, local governments have no spare cash for implementing future infrastucture needs. If these are the requirements, then CA should get zero Volts. I am pretty sure that right now Arnold does not have “install local charging stations” at the top of his list….
So why punish almost the entire country by withholding the availability of Volts in those areas?
This is a long term need, not something that has to be done by Nov, 2010 and should not affect the initial launch.
And as far as the wiring needs for the garage, all the GM dealers have to do is have the purchaser sign off on the necessary requirements, or else GM should have a local electrician come out and do an inspection. I am a bit lost as to why GM feels this is their problem. If I try to install Windows 7 on a 386 based PC, and it does not load, is it M/S fault? No, because they had a list of the necessary requirements to use the software. If I don’t meet those specs, it is my problem to get it right. We need to bring back some personal responsibility here……
BTW: I have a dedicated 120 V 20 Amp AC outlet ready to go in my garage, and I could install a 240 V dedicated line within three or four hours. Does that move me up on the GM availability list? After all, I am “infrastructure ready”!!!!
JMHO
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Any electrician can do this job.
GM should mention that it needs to be done right for sure but does not need teams in place to do it.
Whats more dangerous, my new Volt in the driveway or my new Jacuzzi tub that needed 2 dedicated 20 AMP circuits. One for the heater and one for the jets. I stand around the tub with my feet in water pushing electrical buttons. No one at the tub store said a thing about the installation issues. There was a manual that noted how things must be and an electrician took care of it. Problem solved.
GM is making this car charging sound too complex to me.
Like I said at the beginning, any electrician can do this. It has a certain power draw. Who cares if it is a car or a pool heater. It’s all about the same for an electrician.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:18 pm
I am sorry Mitch, but I hate to point out that idiots do not have a development cycle. That is why they are idiots. I must say we have plenty of idiots on every side of every issue these days. Sometimes a person runs across an idea that is so appealing to them that they stop investigating other avenues. They just settle down comfortably and start spouting off the catch phrases of the group. Repeat things often enough and you can start believing them yourself. That’s called the “Big Lie” theory. It works. It can be seen working today in the halls of our government and elsewhere. But what to believe, what to believe!
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:19 pm
I have been lied to over the years many times by car dealers. They deserve the negativity.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Someone aptly stated that the fuss over charging the Volt is “much ado about nothing”. I couldn’t agree more.
In previous posts, we’ve seen that GM is spearheading the drive for a common plug architecture among all EV manufacturers with the SAE J1772 plug standard. If there was anything that was the Achilles heel for EV adoption, THAT was it, as plug architecture wouldn’t be as common as residential electrical outlets or NEC plug configurations.
The fear over throwing a breaker (or blowing a fuse) at the service panelboard is overblown. GM has gone to great lengths to offer three (3) charging alternatives: 240V AC @ 16 A, 120V AC @ 12 A, and 120V AC @ 8A. The last two are available in one charging device and is completely portable – take it with you.
The latter (120V AC @ 8 A) will suffice for any home (single-family, duplex, apartment, etc.) as long as the vehicle is within 20 feet of a standard 120V receptacle.
Since rural electrification more than 60 years ago, the United States has been ready for the advent of the EV for at least a decade.
If GM is worried about Volt adoption, then I suggest they market their product to those living in American suburbia. Those homes were built in the last 20 years or so.
As someone else pointed out, if a person living in a 1940s home in the rural U.S. is savvy enough to buy a Volt (or any EV), then they’re likely savvy enough to know what their electrical infrastructure needs will be for where they live.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:23 pm
“Parking and HOV are subsidies, they transfer money from one taxpayers in general to specially selected groups. How many subsidies are necessary to make the Volt economically viable?”
_______________________________________________________
I always thought that HOV was meant to solve a problem with so many vehicles on the road causing traffic jams when an accident occurs. HOV help move traffic and reduce the number of vehicles consuming gasoline and polluting the atmosphere.
Parking benefits the business in the area. So if they want to attract customers and they happen to be EV owners, you bet they will back charging posts next to parking spaces.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:24 pm
You can bet that someone will challenge this inequity and either all EV’s or none will get a HOV sticker.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:26 pm
I know there won’t be. I just think it’s unfortunate since it’s the obvious solution to so many of our problems.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:27 pm
There definitely are negative thinkers out there!!!
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:40 pm
LauraM
The problem with a tax credit is it is of no help today and these people live day to day. They can not afford to pay the tax today knowing that the tax credit will give them money in Jan. or Feb. of the following year.
My suggestion is you put away all of your credit cards and debit cards on Monday morning and put $20.00 in your pocket and try to live on it knowing you will get a tax credit early the next year.
Taxing those of us that can afford it is fine with me but I want to help the working poor today not next year after they can not afford to get to work.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Well said.
The ‘infrastructure’ issue although real is not a major stumbling block for the first few years of production.
A good public awareness program could ready the ‘public’ for the possibility that they might have to do a little work on the charging station (house).
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:56 pm
LauraM
While I understand your desire to “level the playing field” is admirable, you have to understand that the purpose of a tax on fuel as suggested is to force change onto people. Well, I don’t like taxes anymore than the next and those that don’t apply some “pain” to all parties is not very well placed, in my opinion. The poor and the “working class” people of this country deserve to feel the pain at the pump too. Maybe not to the extent that I might, but they need to feel it. I am a very long way from being well off financially, but I am not a poor, working class person either. If you want to affect change you have to apply it across the board. You can’t omit a large percentage of the population from that change.
Studies have shown that when people receive money back from the government to help them purchase something to aid their families or themselves, they generally end up spending it on things not intended. Like new video or sound equipment or another vehicle or just Friday and Saturday nights out on the town. It seems that only a small fraction of the people on those government give-backs actually spend the money the way it was intended.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:57 pm
A higher gas tax would get people out of their cars and onto the bus. increased ridership, increased interest in riding and the consequent development of mass transit systems will help the working poor.
From personal observation, the two things that really hurt the poor the most are transportation costs and medical costs.
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August 31st, 2009 at 1:59 pm
High fuel prices encouraged the Europeans to live in the city, so they can use mass transit and other options. It’s easy to get around many other cities without a car. Would you go to LA without renting a car? I don’t think so.
Consequently, they don’t NEED EVs.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Yes, in 2012, production probably rises from 10K to 60K. From pitiful to miserable.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:01 pm
GREAT IDEA!!!!
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:03 pm
If oil was paying its own way, in terms of pollution and defense costs, it would be far, far more expensive. Subsidizing oil isn’t in the Constitution, either, but that’s why we have urban sprawl.
There’s actually very littel mass transit near my home. But I chose, deliberately, a home within walking distance and easy biking distance or my workplace. Others chose to be dependent on low oil prices and bought 3-acre lots 20 and 30 miles out.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:05 pm
And right in line with the early years of the Prii.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:07 pm
CarlosG
The Leaf and any other BEV sure will have these problem in my neck of the woods. And I live in NC which is embracing EV and other plug in vehicles.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Apparently you are unaware that everything that makes rural life modern (including highways and electrification) were and are subsidized by the urban and suburban areas. Think about how much it costs to create a roadway and an electrical corridor, and then imagine dividing that large cost over a very small number of inhabitants. It costs a fortune to blacktop a friggin’ driveway, yet rural people (farners and ranchers) actually believe that THEY are the ones who pay for the miles of road between them and town. Rural independence is a fiscal fallacy. We’re all in this together folks, and there is room for rural and city living without disparaging either.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:16 pm
LauraM
Being less auto dependent is great if you live in a large city where there is public transportation. There are many places where there is not public transportation and we have to be auto dependent. And riding a bicycle 10 miles to work one way is not a creditable solution. There is not enough money in the whole world to make public transportation available to most Americans. It is just not feasible. We have to have autos. We all hope we will see a brighter future for automobiles that are fueled by electricity or some other fuel that is not unkind to our environment. We all want that. It is going to take many, many years before we start to see the true benefits of what GM has started. It will not happen in my life time.
I agree with much of what has been said about raising taxes on fuel. Those tax revenues should be used to help build the infrastructure needed for the new future. Problem is getting congress to not touch the fund and waste its proceeds in ways that is not advancing the cause we all seek. Possibly the fund should not be under government control at all except for some over-sight to insure the money is spent as it should be.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:24 pm
I agree. Change has to be forced on us many times. It is a shame for it to be this way, but that is the way it is. Some can see things as being better and will adopt those new ways. Many, many of us just keep right on in the same old rut. Never looking up or to one side or the other. Never knowing that we could climb out of that rut and find new sources of life’s journey to make our stay on this planet much better. But, given time, change does come. Out with the old and in with the new. Sooner or later the new replaces the old. It is just a matter of time. And in this case, a matter many, many trillions of dollars to build out the infrastructure of the future. Ah! Smell that sweet smell of change. I can almost taste it now. Just a few more years and it will be here. But, will people change? They have to, don’t they? Sure they do!
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:27 pm
And to think there are still people calling for a Hydrogen Highway system for the U.S. Some people never learn.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:29 pm
“…who will volunteer to chip in for the trillions of dollars needed to upgrade the grid(s)?”
the people who use the electricity, of course! The more we use, the more we pay, and the more money that the power companies will have available to expand the grid. Although a foreign concept recently, capitalism does work some times.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:31 pm
I am sorry, kingofl337. I don’t have the same low opinion of most of the people who will be purchasing electric vehicles. They will be a novelty for many years and those buyers will understand the need for new breakers/circuits. As the electric vehicle gains in use, other people will learn from friends or family of the need. The dealers will help educate those buyers and GM will advertise the need. I just see this as a “glass half-full” not “half-empty”.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:33 pm
LauraM
I was going to reply to Rashiid, but your comment said it much better than I probably would have. Thank you and very well stated.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:34 pm
There are thousands of scientists who believe that there is not enough evidence to support the man made global warming theory. They just get dismissed.
For instance, years ago we heard from Dr. William Gray of Colorado State as the expert on hurricanes and forcasting. When Al Gore and company claimed that hurricains are now worse and this is because of global warming, Dr. Gray pointed out that they were wrong based on actual facts and not just hyperbole from Al Gore’s power point slides.
This caused Dr. Gray to be sidelined and the Colorado state hurricane forcasting has been greatly diminished. Dr. Gray claims that his funding has been cut over this issue.
I personally am in a position to peer review the man made global warming theories and read a good bit about it. I have found far more evidence that suggests against the theory than evidence to support it.
One major problem is that the MMGW proponents use exaggeration and scare tactics and go beyond the actual science. Al Gore has been shown to be a fraud many times with his claims and the expert at NASA, Hansen, has been proven wrong by amatures many times now. He is always wrong in the same direction too (always reading the data on the warmer side of things).
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Maybe some of us who are reaching retirement age should ask for employment at the Chevrolet dealerships to help “educate” the masses along with our fellow sales people and management. We probably know much more about the Volt than anyone at most Chevrolet dealerships at this time. Hopefully, soon mechanics and electronic technicians will begin a training course at GM.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:38 pm
I understand your point…but believe me…everytime we thought we had it idiot proof, they made a better idiot, and a lawsuit followed…
Believe me..its not published, advertised or has any UL certified standard, but the idiot development cycle is complete about 10 MINUTES before a product release..
lol
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:45 pm
What I want GM to be working on besides with the electrical industry is to help get more solar and wind for homes by encouraging companies to develop better designs and reduce cost of the equipment and installation. Plus encourage all federal, state and local governments to help fund purchases. If funding is financed by taxes on fuel, great. It is one of those things that needs to be done. But the money needs to be spent for the purpose of the taxation only.
My state does not fund any solar or wind to my knowledge. I would love to have some solar and wind generation, but I can not afford it at this time. But it would be great for my children and grandchildren to grow up in a world where each home or neighbor hood had solar and wind generation equipment to supply most of their needs. Maybe it is only a dream. Maybe not.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:45 pm
The Prius introduced the modern gas-electric drivetrain in 1997. The Volt is merely 13 years late to the party. As such, the production volumes are ridiculous.
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:49 pm
So..if the volt sales go great, but a bunch of people cannot charge at 240 because of infrastructure issues, their fuses pop because they are using 100′ weed wacker cords, and under warranty they bring em in, get checked and all is ok withthe car. They tell their friends..dont by a EREV or BEV because it blows fuses, and they dont..car sales drop and the plans get scrapped by all manufacturers..
here is the $16,000 question…
now who killed the electric car?
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August 31st, 2009 at 2:52 pm
As to famous people, Lyle Dennis, or maybe “statik” come to mind.
Tom who?
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Duct tape, safety wire and pop rivets make the world go ’round. You should see us with our paper towels cleaning up the engine after every track session so that the tech guys don’t come by and see a puddle under the car, LOL. Oil sealing was NOT a priority for early Chevy designers.
If I can’t buy a dryer plug down at HD and splice it onto the Volt’s charging plug, I give up, hehehe. If worst comes to worst, I’ll get CaptJack to come over and help me. I’ll supply the beer and chicken wings.
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Maybe GM has more plans to reveal later that would require use of a charging infrastructure. Not unreasonable to think that. Many of us have been calling for GM to develop a full BEV version of the Volt or a dedicated BEV vehicle. Just thinking.
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:07 pm
They’ll steal it just like they did my “VoltAge”.
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:10 pm
It is almost a “damned if you do and damned if you don’t” situation. I know I plan to charge every night on the 120V circuit. My round trip is only a little under 20 miles at present. Soon I will be retired and will work for other companies around town on a “contract” basis. I will keep the Volt fully charged and ready to go. If I have to go more than the battery will allow, I don’t mind burning a little gasoline. It is just one of those necessary evils that many of you do not approve of. Sorry.
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Plus stealing the cable for the copper wire. That kind of stuff was rampant here a few months ago when the price of copper was up. It will be again.
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Capt,
Maybe it was “independent discovery” (both of you came up with it).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Better yet, buy an additional 110V charger when you buy the Volt. Keep one in the car and one in the garage. That way there is even less trouble because you don’t have to get it out of the trunk and then put it back when you are through. By having one in the car you will always have it available for opportunity charging.
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:33 pm
I suppose wasting a few trillion dollars on someting that may not be necessary won’t matter then, because poeple don’t want to adjust their habits, simple ones like waiting to top off at night.
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:34 pm
I have a dedicated 120V circuit right next to where I park my car at present. Since I have a carport, I don’t have the clutter most people have in garages. One of the reasons I chose to build a carport over an enclosed garage.
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Just let the first ones in line get the perks and let the market figure out who is first. Maybe set aside an amount for each vehicle type then let ‘er rip. Just one idea though IMO.
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:47 pm
CJS
I agree. Homeowners need to foot the bill for any upgrades necessary for their electric vehicles. Businesses that want to invest in charging stations should do it on their own to the best of their ability. There should be a thriving business in providing “for a fee” charging stations at malls and other parking areas. Electric utilities can and will help businesses develop those plans because it means more business (money) for them. Capitalism at work can do much more than government subsidized programs that end up spending tons of money with very little of it actually being spent on the problem at hand. Most finds its way into the pockets of “friends” and officials who then return a portion of it back to the congressman or senator as a campaign donation. Funny how well that works.
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August 31st, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Great plan, isn’t it. I have been wondering where you were today. I hope GM does get the dealer very involved in the electric car roll out and its future plans. I don’t see where the eBay plan will work except for the first batch of Volts.
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August 31st, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Double standards are what they are.
It’s OK for Prius production to spool up over time but that is not acceptable for the Volt.
You have an interesting form of logic dagwood55.
The Volt will introduce the step step in the evolution of the automobile.
I do not deny the effiency advancements made with the Prius however I think the Volt takes these efficencies to a new level.
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August 31st, 2009 at 4:04 pm
You could always take the picture of the charging cable, blow it up some and post it on the wall next to your car. That would be about all available to you for awhile now. Best you could do.
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August 31st, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Personal responsibility? What you talking about? Don’t you know that is not P.C. these days? You better keep those kinds of comments to yourself, Jim. Some on this site may take offense. (Now i am whispering this so no one but you will hear me. I totally agree with you, but we better keep it to ourselves. Don’t want to upset someone’s apple cart.) Ssshh!
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August 31st, 2009 at 4:10 pm
It seems to make sense that the dealer local to the auction winner would ‘do’ the delivery.
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August 31st, 2009 at 4:13 pm
I think this is less of an issue than it looks at first glance.
Even today the Prius is fairly fringe, people know its a different type of car and will find out what is needed to use it properly.
It will be the same with the Volt in this respect.
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August 31st, 2009 at 4:13 pm
I fully agree. The infrastructure build up is more for BEVs than the Volt type vehicles. Maybe GM sees that coming and wants to be ready when they introduce their BEV and they don’t want slow acceptance when it happens because of lack of charging stations. Even GM plans for the future while building for the present.
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August 31st, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Has anyone called Tesla? What do they tell their customers about dedicated plug circuits? This can’t be something new to anyone.
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August 31st, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Capt,
Relax, many of the charging ports will allow a user to swipe his plastic to get access to the plug. Then it goes on the client’s home electric bill. Don’t sweat it.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 31st, 2009 at 5:18 pm
The most dramatic preparation to be done for the infrastructure is to pressure the local utility commissions to establish and to set a up separate lower EV off-peak charging rates. Having both a a load-shedder and off-peak electric service, I find that I was required to have a separate meter for the lower priced off-peak service.
That is the most effective infrastructure change to accommodate the coming electric cars, of whatever plug-in type.
evnow,
The majority of scientists an engineers do not support your global
warming religious dogma, anymore. Modern 21st century Science has discredited the excessive Warmist concerns. .Evidence is accumulating in the scientific community that the ability to move climate with changes in CO2 is proving to be dramatically exaggerated. If yo look at the IPCC periodic reports, every succeeding report has reduced the power of the CO2 to alter the climate. They have more than cut it to a quarter of the original published estimate. The IPCC is behind the curve and are still an order of magnitude too high, and everyone expects the next report will cut it even more dramatically. .
And that isn’t just an opinion. Some 31,000, a substantial proportion of the Nation’s scientific talent, have signed petitions opposing exaggerated Warmist claims, that border of pseudo-scientific religious fanaticism, not Science. I advise you to get educated; and not by listening to a southern religious preacher, who has less scientific training than you do, Mr. Gore has taken only two college level science courses in his life, and failed one, and achieved only a barely passing grade of “D” the second. He knows less than nothing, except scaring people and making lots of money doing so. .
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August 31st, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Midnight wiring company can handle most anything
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August 31st, 2009 at 5:33 pm
They built the Prius backwards.
A battery motor supporting a gas engine. Big deal. How stupid.
The Volt is built the right way. Maybe (and I do mean maybe) the only thing I would change on the Volt is having the ICE charge the battery.
But that is a loooong maybe because it is cheaper to have the electric company charge the battery.
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August 31st, 2009 at 5:39 pm
LauraM and N. Riley.
I meant no offense, but I did say “understand”. I think an educated person can “understand” the concept. An uneducated person “understand” the concept also.
LauraM, I know some people with a few degrees. Two are dumb as a brick, but they have those pieces of paper to prove otherwise.
In other words, I understand what you are saying there.
Oh, and I don’t know any uneducated people with lots of money.
The ones I know suffer from the horrible economy. I help when I can, but it is very hard for them.
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August 31st, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Aren’t they 220V charging only?
I believe those are dedicated.
At least in my house they are.
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August 31st, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Laura M,
Like hell it is! Europe has high gas taxes and where are its electric cars or fuel cell vehicles?. They don’t exist. Progress on EVs and fuel cells are coming from Asia and North America.
And don’[ hand me the malarkey that they care more about the environment. Their unadopted as yet EU level 5 and 6 emissions laws aren’t as tough as what the USA had in the early eighties. They plan a long way out and they don’t even have proposed cleanup standards equal to out current and in force standards projected out until post 2030!
And its not as if their car makers can’t do it. They make cleaner cars for export here, than the pollution pigs with which they poison their own populations, in Europe. And with all those taxes, to subsidize better cars, the cleanup technology was not developed in Europe but rather once again in North America and Asia. So where was the benefit of the Taxes? NONE! .
Taxes do only one thing, increase the corruption, depravity and power of the politicians.
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August 31st, 2009 at 5:46 pm
I think you are right on here.
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August 31st, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Its easy. Dageood 55 lives ina fantasy world where the proletariat peasants can be forced and driven to do as he wishes. In essence, hes no different from other dys-utopians like Joe, Adolph and Mao.
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August 31st, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Hey Muddy at 9:45 am,
That’s really cool that your dad can do that for you.
In my case, the numbers-crunching to get a Gen1 Volt is going to be close, so, anything financial I can get out of the way well before then is that important.
While the junction box and 240 volt wiring (for the charger) is not a great big deal, those several hundred bucks for it to be done per code is easier spent now (once I have the junction box specs to accommodate the charger) than at time of purchase (if I am lucky). I am going to go ahead as soon as I have some proper specs from GM for that to be done by my neighbor up the street.
The other reason is that I want my neighbor up the street, who is a licensed electrician, to have some work to do. I want the several hours he is paid to be spent locally. Every hour he gets paid is one I don’t have to deal with later for a charger installation.
I don’t casually-leave any technical detail to the last minute if I can help it. That way, say, if during the year, a “barter” opportunity comes up (to trade auto work, for instance), or, a small extra block of money is available, then the situation tends to be favorable for me since I am “ahead of time”, than if the situation works less comfortably for me with installation-per-code costs at time of purchase.
Better planning doesn’t cost you more, is saves you more, almost always.
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:03 pm
N. Riley — Agree, it’s half full, and as soon as real cars are available people will keep filling it up. Charging a Volt is not going to be a major problem for a long long time if ever.
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:03 pm
And I can see the ambulance chasers suing for the dumbbells that GM should have warned them of the extra expense of wiring their abodes properly.
GM is guilty of Fraud they will shout! And some even dumber judge will agree and open another lucrative non-work activity for Legal thieves.
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Thank You for your contribution and I use it.
The ICEage is dead. Embrace the VOLTage!
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Hey Noel,
I’ll bet charging continuity could be part of the alarm system, and, a remote key fob button-press-to-disarm could be the only way to disable it.
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Is there much E85, outside of food based, being produced? How much does it cost?
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:31 pm
You can’t just add loads like this. It may work in some instances but circuits are designed for intended loads. Adding significant additional loads requires upgrading. Yes, this can be accomplished at various levels of cost depending on the exsiting wiring and loading but it isn’t as simple as adding an outlet.
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August 31st, 2009 at 6:39 pm
The point of the gas tax is to reduce gasoline use. Period. And, in Europe, they use a lot less gasoline per capita than we do. Period. They also emit much less carbon per capita than we do, but I suppose you don’t consider that pollution. (They also use a lot less mercury, and emit less methane, etc. but that’s not about cars, so I suppose it doesn’t count.)
The gasoline tax is not just about electric cars. It’s about using public transportation where available. It’s about car pooling and reducing unnecessary trips. It’s about trading in an SUV for a compact. All of these things benefit the environment. And the US economy. And national security.
Besides, for companies like GM and Ford, and even Toyota, it’s better to have certainy when making their product development decisions. Ditto for numerous other industries and the consumer. A gas tax can help with that. When you can plan in advance, you’re less vulnerable to fluctuations in gas prices. Europeans barely noticed the run up in gasoline prices last year. Personally, I think that’s valuable.