GM has for months been discussing and promoting the idea of community plug-in readiness. This relates to the development of public charging infrastructure and government incentives to enhance the adoption of electric cars. In fact, GM has clearly stated that those communities which have demonstrated sufficient plugin readiness will be rewarded with being the first rollout locations for the Volt.
People often wonder why GM needs to go through all of this effort. I asked the following questions about it of Tony Posawatz, GM’s Volt vehicle line engineer.
A lot of people ask why is GM focusing on plugin readiness. They say if its just like a plasma screen TV being plugged into an outlet in your garage, what’s the big deal?
There’s a little bit of history to this. We’ve made a lot of mistakes in our history and we’ve learned. GM has already failed three times on infrastructure.
We have not succeeded on E85 yet its a really cleaver idea. I’m not referring to corn but the more advanced stuff.
Hydrogen…I don’t know what happened to the hydrogen superhighway, no infrastructure there.
Also I would argue for EV-1, we didn’t set up a good infrastructure there.
So we said fool me once, fool me twice…
The Volt was designed to make the infrastructure challenge easier.
The Volt doesn’t need public charging the Volt needs number one really good charging at home. Just plug it in? Not so fast my friend, the data we look at says.
Let’s say we don’t have a ready city initiative, or the region your going into, the education. The electric company is a driver of special benefits too. People would be losing out. Wouldn’t you want someone to set a standard that EV drivers get the best parking or the HOV lane? This helps mitigate the initial cost because you get the extra value. You may get free charging. This is our effort because we have some leverage. We recognize that one of the issues with Volt is a cost issue.
If you live in a 1947 farmhouse in Connecticut and you want to plug it in, but it its not a dedicated circuit, and every morning when your vehicle is charging and your daughter turns on the hairdryer and the fuse blows. Who’s going to get blamed? Who are they going to call? Its a very real situation. Many houses are not wired to code, they are wired in a very cheap manner.
We’ve learned, and we so much want to make this work we are not missing anything.
We are negotiating with some prominent companies to get the home ready… house installations, or if you want the plug moved or a dedicated circuit or a special meter or 220V.
GM won’t have its own wiring subsidiary?
No we will actively be involved in setting the requirements for a partner. There are companies that did the EV-1.
The 240 V cord has to go directly into the wall?
Yes, that’s by code.
In the showroom we want to have a system available in parallel to get the house ready.
This is why were so big on infrastructure. Number one to see if we can bring additional benefits to the customer, and to build this thing for the future so we can engage partners and build new opportunities that I can’t tell you about yet. Once your in someone’s home what kind of things well be able to do and you say to yourself, this is more than just a car.
Aug 31st, 2009 (6:39 am)It is interesting he mentioned Connecticut.
I highly doubt our State will be first.
I can’t think of any city or town that is building an infrastructure for EVs.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (6:44 am)Free fill up at work would be a great benefit for early adopters. Gas usage could head towards zero quickly with this option.
Filling up at other stops (the mall, the movie theater, hotels / motels) would also be nice for an EV driver.
Go GM, push the infrastructure…
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Aug 31st, 2009 (6:49 am)Shocking news….
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+3
Aug 31st, 2009 (6:51 am)GM is correct that the home is their #1 infrastructure focus. They really do seem to have their act together on this one.
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-13
Aug 31st, 2009 (6:55 am)(click to show comment)
+11
Aug 31st, 2009 (6:58 am)You have this wrong.
It makes perfect sense to have an infrastructure for this.
Many EV companies can make use of it. Not just GM.
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+11
Aug 31st, 2009 (6:59 am)Maybe the problem wasn’t that you didn’t spend enough time/money working on a new E85/Hydrogen infrastructure.
Maybe, there isn’t enough corn/sugar out there yet to make enough E85 and the switchgrass/biotrash ethanol hasn’t made it past the proof of concept phase.
Maybe, hydrogen vehicles cost a million a piece and until you can generate hydrogen cheaply and cleanly there is 0 benefit to converting to hydrogen at this point.
I’ll give you that people need a dedicated circuit for the volt in their home.
One of my big problems with betterplace (and I really dislike them) is that they’re trying to make EV’s complicated by artificially manufacturing an infrasturcture.
GM, you have a winner on your hands that utilizes the two most readily available power sources. You’ll do fine with the volt. just have dealers explain the Volt should have a dedicated breaker if you keep tripping fuses.
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+5
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:00 am)“If you live in a 1947 farmhouse in Connecticut and you want to plug it in, but it its not a dedicated circuit, and every morning when your vehicle is charging and your daughter turns on the hairdryer and the fuse blows. Who’s going to get blamed? Who are they going to call? Its a very real situation. Many houses are not wired to code, they are wired in a very cheap manner.”
Oh, please. If that’s the situation, the homeowner will set up a new circuit. We’ve been using electricity heavily in the US for 100 years… people who want a car charging circuit in the garage will get an appropriate circuit for a couple hundred bucks.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (7:03 am)In NC, Raleigh (the state capitol but not the largest city) claims to be building infrastructure. They is a chicken and egg aspect in that without any cars in the hands of citizens there is not any detectable support for such an enterprise from ordinary people.
In any event, as I don’t live in Raleigh, for me the emphasis on infrastructure is a negative for buying a Volt or other EV — shouldn’t buy one unless and until some other infrastructure is already installed at my house or someplace, but there is nothing that I as an individual can do to get that infrastructure in place. It could take quite a while.
I’m really not convinced that such a delay is necessary, but the more gm talks about it, the more it seems like it must be so.
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+4
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:04 am)I agree that the home is important. But, I would argue that the average guy willing to spend $35,000 or more on the Volt will be able to understand that he needs a dedicated circuit. This is not really that tough to figure out. The average new microwave also needs a dedicated circuit and the microwave manufacturers don’t have to really do anything special to sell these things. (Same with hot tubs, jacuzzi baths, etc. etc.). The end user buys the thing and knows how to get his home ready for them. The Volt will be similar. WIll some fool plug it into an overladed circuit and constantly blow the fuse? Sure.. But I hope they don’t try to make it idiot proof and therefor more costly.
KISS should apply here. Its only an electrical circuit. They should not make it seem like you need a super special setup that only the dealers special contractor can install (at high $$ of course).
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-7
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:05 am)Posawatz: “Wouldn’t you want someone to set a standard that EV drivers get the best parking or the HOV lane? This helps mitigate the initial cost because you get the extra value. You may get free charging. This is our effort because we have some leverage. We recognize that one of the issues with Volt is a cost issue.”
Parking and HOV are subsidies, they transfer money from one taxpayers in general to specially selected groups. How many subsidies are necessary to make the Volt economically viable?
Of course, GM’s just going to be cutting its own throat. Rules and subsidies for EVs will just encourage more competition in EVs. Toyota developed the original Prius in 2.5 years. Starting with the current vehicle, they could easily find a way to put something that took maximum advantage of special rules on the road in a short amound of time.
“If GM can get marketing support from Uncle Sam,” the competition will think, “then so can we.”
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Aug 31st, 2009 (7:06 am)Is it just me or is it really ironic that the piction for this article involves the recently cancelled vehicle?
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+17
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:07 am)Exactly,
Spend some public money to speed the adoption of EVs so that we can reduce foreign oil usage and clean the air.
This sounds better than much of the Pork our congress spends on now.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (7:12 am)Jason,
Agree wholeheartedly. It’s a win-win if communities and states (like NC) get their acts together re infrastructure and perks it draws great companies to their area.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:12 am)Mr Posawatz says If you live in a 1947 farmhouse in Connecticut and you want to plug it in, but it its not a dedicated circuit, and every morning when your vehicle is charging and your daughter turns on the hairdryer and the fuse blows. Who’s going to get blamed? Who are they going to call? Its a very real situation. Many houses are not wired to code, they are wired in a very cheap manner.
————————————————-
So what does Mr Posawatz want to see happen? Maybe I should imagine: “Sir, you are not allowed to buy a Volt until we inspect your house. Then if we find it is not up to the current code we will call the county inspector to come out to give you a citation. So if you want a Volt sir, you are going to have to shape up, renovate, and get certified.” (Of course, the electrical code changes every couple of years, adds items such as “must have light over back steps”, so any house more than a year or two old is not within the code)
I’d be so scared of that Volt I’d never go into that dealership again.
Do we all go through this kind of anxiety to buy a toaster? Well hardly. Shocking though it seems, I even know some seemingly mild-mannered law-abiding citizens who bought window air conditioners, which they run for hours on end. But the same voltages and currents are involved. Strange things are happening
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:12 am)I sent an e-mail over a year ago to let my building management company know this was coming. They are in the process of getting LEED certified and are hoping to get a ‘few’ electric charging stations in the parking deck. Fingers crossed that I can afford to be an early Volt adopter (end of 2011?)…
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+4
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:13 am)I work in a support position and no the public won’t figure this out. They will just see that the breaker connected to the Volt tripped and bring the car in for service. Then they will be pissed off that their new $40,000 car keeps tripping the breaker and either will deal with it and be pissed off at GM or bring back the car and have the dealer chase their tail. A lot of people are sheep when they don’t understand how something works.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (7:13 am)nb,
See my post right below this (it could have been here too).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+4
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:15 am)I think GM is making more of this than they need to be. Seriously. When the person writes the check, then the car and everything that goes with it is his/her concern. If they live in an old farmhouse somewhere with ancient wiring, then that’s the owner’s problem. Do toaster manufacturers need to make sure there is a proper charging infrastructure available before they can sell? Mountain out of a mole hill.
Just focus on getting the car right GM.
Side…do I sound cranky for a Monday? Not trying to be, just saying.
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-1
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:16 am)Rashiid,
I know that as a state NC is doing a lot of plugin infrastructure. I can’t remember which cities though. If I was to guess, it’d be Charlotte and Raleigh though.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 31st, 2009 (7:16 am)I agree. Making it seem that “special” things need to be done for this car will turn off some people.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (7:18 am)i think there is a necessity of infrastructure in place or else demand for PHEV will pickup at slower pace and lack of infrastrusture can do a big damage to the EV program.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (7:23 am)Just curious , but VERY IMPORTANT
What sized wire is the proper one for an extension cord ?
What color is the extension cord ?
How can we tell if it is a proper one ?
Just how long (in feet) is it safe to run it from the plug at the house to the car ?
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:28 am)Besides the reasons mentioned by Tony, I think there is another underlying factor that is mentioned by GM in another document, but one that I can’t find right now.
As we know, with the Volt, about 78% of drivers can complete their daily routine without using gas. This is a good number. However, it was mentioned in one article, that if a drivers could plug in at work (or elsewhere) during the day, over 90% of drivers could go without using any gas for the day.
I see this as very significant, especially in California, where it is important to have cars rated as near-zero emissions vehicles. For me, this is another important aspect, but perhaps GM doesn’t want to mention this as an underlying reason.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:35 am)I would never assume an early adopter motivated by global warming would understand that they may need their wiring evaluated / approved.
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-8
Aug 31st, 2009 (7:47 am)Credibility
Lost
Right
Around
Here,
“If you live in a 1947 farmhouse in Connecticut and you want to plug it in”
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Aug 31st, 2009 (7:59 am)Perhaps, but one has to balance the need for infrastructure with the number of cars that are served by it. To this time that number is near to zero, except in some places that use a lot of electric golf-cart vehicles, and those are the places that have infrastructure in place.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (8:01 am)I agree with giving EV/EREV owners perks. It might not make the hybrid owners happy though since it would make sense to take away their perks (HOV lane, special parking spaces, etc.). Hybrid is too mainstream now.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (8:03 am)I’m optimistic that people will learn quickly from friends as well as dealers once there are real cars available.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (8:04 am)Off topic, but I wanted to let my friends on this site who are crazy about cars like me, know about the Lemay Auto Museum, which I visited last Saturday. It is in Tacoma, Washington.
In short, it is the world’s greatest car collection (not to mention motorcycles, military equipment, farm equipment, buses, fire trucks, gas pumps, signs, etc. etc.)
It was all collected by one man, Harold Lemay, and unassuming regular guy who made it big in the garbage business.
Ok, I could go on and on, but if you ever want to be totally blown away by cars of all makes and types, from the earliest cars on up to the 70s’ you MUST go to this place at least once in your life. (I have been there 5 times to their annual open house and classic car meet and I still see new things I never saw before).
I guarantee you won’t be disappointed and will probably be talking about this place for the rest of your life. It is simply awesome.
Here is the link:
http://www.lemaymuseum.org/
Every year, on the last Saturday in August, they open the Lemay grounds and let you walk through Lemay’s collection in his various storage buildings, barns, garages, etc. Then you can go over to the collection that is open year around too. His wife collected dolls and other stuff too, so if you want to bring your wife and kids there’s plenty to see.
The city of Tacoma, recognizing what a fabulous collection they have in their own backyard (well, ok, Harold’s back yard really) are building a dedicated Museum that will have a rotating display of about 300 of his cars.
I was reading one of the newspaper articles on the wall in one of his buildings, and the reporter asked him if there was anything he didn’t collect or should have acquired. He said he alway thought he didn’t collect enough Ford’s. So someone counted the Ford’s in his collection – 179! By itself, that is the Worlds’ greatest Ford collection. He has probably every domestic make and most foreign makes too. And he has oddball cars too, like an extensive collection of Bantam’s and many historically significant cars that have belonged to world leaders and celebrities.
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+10
Aug 31st, 2009 (8:05 am)I would say that you are assuming that the Global Warming crowd has below average intelegence. I am not arguing one way or the other, I am just pointing out the logic.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (8:07 am)Barriers at the moment of purchase hold people back a lot, often more than is rational.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (8:14 am)I agree they might not be rational but I can hear the wife now….
Are you kidding me. You want to spend what. and now we need to hire Mr GoodWire to come out to the house and install a what? The dealer said this could burn down the garage if not done properly.
How about that nice little cruze over there. It looks much cheaper and runs on gas….
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Aug 31st, 2009 (8:18 am)PS:
http://projectgetready.com/city/raleigh-north-carolina
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
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+3
Aug 31st, 2009 (8:19 am)In the eng dept here at work we try to design on KISS. we used to say idiot proof until someone pointed out that the developpment cycle for idiots was faster than our product cycle…ALWAYS!!
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (8:23 am)Out here in California, both SDG&E (San Diego) and SCE (Southern Californa) utilities are installing smart meters, so Volt owners will be able to take advantage of the low night time rates. Additionally many older houses have been retrofitted with air conditioning which required upgrading the electrical supply. And anyone who can afford a Volt can afford to have their garage wired for 220.
Bottom line, all this “infrastructure” stuff appears simply an effort to gain an additional revenue stream – the Volt home charging package.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (8:23 am)There is a dark side to being able to be plugged in at work. For the person who uses up the majority of their charge driving one way plugging in at work makes sense both to them and to society overall because of the decreased use of gasoline. But what about the person who uses only 1/2 their charge? It will makes sense to them as well to plug in at work and get the free charge and perhaps to give them a cushion for running errands etc. but to society this will be a negative. Because with all this charging at work (assumedly during the day) the advantage of using a largely under utilized grid at night is gone.
If work places put in fee based charging stations then this will help make sure people charge at home that can because their off peak rates will be cheaper than charging at work. But if the charging at work is free – and I am guessing it will be for lots of people – then we will have diminished one of the advantages of an electric vehicle.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (8:28 am)Remember that there are too many DIYers, (not that there is anythign wrong with that) but all too often limits are exceeded. Many old homes have a 60 amp service, this is a limitation and a very real one.. I lived in such a home and if the oven was on, we could not use the A/C…total amperage exceeded the service breaker. Would shut the whole house down.
What they are trying to acheive here is permits and inspection of the charging equipment, not GM coming into the house, but making sure your service can realistically handle it. They will likely not care who does it, so long as it is done to code, and inspected.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (8:31 am)“This is why were so big on infrastructure. Number one to see if we can bring additional benefits to the customer, and to build this thing for the future so we can engage partners and build new opportunities that I can’t tell you about yet. Once your in someone’s home what kind of things well be able to do and you say to yourself, this is more than just a car.”
Did anybody pay attention to this las statement???? What is Tony talking about hear????
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Aug 31st, 2009 (8:48 am)I think the infrastructure GM should be concentrating on is appartment buildings, work place, rest areas, and a long list of places such as shopping and parking lots. Most who live in a private home will have few problems plugging in.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (8:49 am)It’s time for some boldness. First things first. Accelerating past a possible “chicken and egg” scenario, I will be going to my Credit Union today to get initial guidelines to prepare to purchase a Volt next year. Many financial institutions have financial advisers. (While no, I’m not expecting any to know anything about Volt, but certainly they know about what it will take to finance any car).
Then, I will contact my neighbor three doors up the street who is a really great Licensed Electrician. I will ask him what my cost will be for *both* a dedicated 120 volt outlet, as well as a dedicated 240 volt outlet,
************
BOTH
************
of which he will install
*******************
NEXT WEEK
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Then, I will clear out the remainder of the no-longer-used stuff in the garage to make it nearly empty looking.
The old brown astroturf (12 years ago) that I had placed on the floor (to catch grease spots from cars I had worked on), will be removed, and replaced with new astroturf. The garage will again look like someone’s living room when the garage door is opened.
What GM needs is to see “proactivity” out here on our parts.
That way, it will be a far easier (and fairer) way, in part, for GM to be able to select the buyers for Voltec vehicles (although there are no guaranties, of course). None of us ought to complain if we are not preparing.
While yes, “What if I spend that money on the outlet(s) and I can’t get a Volt?” Maybe not for a year or two, but going to your financial institution if you need to in order to determine your financial feasibility for next year is a smart start before spending the money on the outlet(s). And, the more it costs to do right, the later you should consider doing it. My outlets will be two feet away from the garage main breaker box, so I’m fortunate there.
C’mon guys ‘n gals, that ought to be the minimum we ought do in response to what tremendously pro-active VOLTec things GM has done.
We all see every day what GM is doing. Isn’t if fair to have GM begin to see what WE ARE DOING? Of course it is.
Why should GM carry the entire “ball of wax” without any of us needing to perform anything at all. That’s ridiculous. There should be this very quick trend *away* from this marketer’s genre’ of
***********************************************************************
IT’S ALL ABOUT ME, THE CONSUMER ALMIGHTY.
***********************************************************************
“u-tube” “u-verse” “u-deserve a break today” “aren’t u-special”.
**marketer’s bull**
(Brainwashed-egocentricity that’s not always easy to escape).
So, here’s the plan. Go to your financial institution and see if you can get ready based on their trusted advice. If they say not yet, then ask, “How can I get ready”, and write down the answers right there. You have about a year to get ready.
Then, if you are able to get a tentative and comfortable “yes”, start to look around for a Licensed electrician if you already don’t know of one. Charging for 4 to 8 hours at 8 to 12 amps *** every night *** may not overload any non-dedicated old circuit, but it may wear it out a little sooner.
So, start with a newly-installed dedicated circuit by a licensed electrician. That, (based on your financial “ducks lined up” already), might be one of several more very first steps that GM might need for us to be considered for the very first limited editions.
This sort of logic for an enhanced chance for “selection privilege” would make some sense for the process, it seems to me, even if circumstances delay the availability for us.
I’ll take the chance on the cost of both those outlets to be installed, no problem!! GM’s been taking those exact sorts of chances for at least a decade, as Mr. Posawatz has detailed for us.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (8:50 am)So why can’t I just ad another 3 way spliter on my plug so can plug in my volt and all my other crap?????????????????
;>)
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Aug 31st, 2009 (8:52 am)RB and nb,
I must be missing something here. The Volt has a “smart plug” that “knows” if it’s a 110 or 220 and draws current accordingly. If someone wants to charge off a regular outlet, it’s possible, no?
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (9:00 am)I think this topic is being blown way out of proportion. In the minimum charge configuration, the Volt is no different than your daughter’s hair dryer. Are we really suggesting that if John Q. Public’s daughter and wife BOTH have hair dryers that he is completely stumped as to how to plug them in? I think he’ll figure it out. If you live in an old farmhouse with below present day standard wiring, it’s not like you can’t charge your new Volt. It will just charge slower. That’s all. No big deal. A lot of hot air in this topic but I don’t see a fire! And to the person who suggested that your home would have to be certified by Mr. Goodwire before they would let you buy a Volt, does your spaceship have enough fuel to get you back to your planet? I mean, come on!
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+3
Aug 31st, 2009 (9:06 am)Actually, if GM is successful to help get a better infrastructure, everybody win, including their competitor and yet GM seems to be the only to understand this aspect. You have to respect GM for this.
I guess they did learn from the EV1
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Aug 31st, 2009 (9:10 am)I am pointing out that the worry over the old farm house is misplaced. Of course the Volt will be easy to plug in at home and of course you might need a dedicated circuit.
IMO, GM should work on making it easy to plug in at the Mall parking garage, Hotels and Motels, and at work. Now that would make EV’s easier to adopt for many and lets face it, the infrastructure for electrical circuits is not rocket science.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (9:11 am)Of course Tag.
The 110 plug will go into a standard wall plug.
The 220 will be wall mounted with it’s own dedicated circuit.
(Which should totally mitigate the old wiring issue.)
The concern and it is a real one for the ‘big numbers’ gen 2 and 3 cars, is that not all homes and yes particularly older homes have modern electrical infrastructure that can handle the rather substantial load of charging a Volt. Think “hair dryer” type draw, but for a few hours. Heating of older wiring ‘could’ be an issue at that sort of load over an extended period of time.
The more expensive Gen 1 cars will be purchased by fairly well to do people who likely live in newer homes where this should be a non-issue. I would think that most Gen 1 buys would put in a 220 line, I will.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (9:13 am)The more public plug outlets, the more the more I can maximize pure EV driving. It’s also good EV marketing to see a bunch of cars plugged in.
Regarding plugging in at home, i think its good to make sure stuff is up to code. I also think there’s more going on than just providing juice.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (9:16 am)GM MUST tell people to have their electrical up to code.
Otherwise somebody is going to ‘bodge’ their connector onto their dryer plug burn the house down and blame GM.
You know this to be true.
Actually I take that comment as a very positive sign of the car coming! If there WASN’T a real car they would have no reason to start damage control!
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (9:17 am)Yup. I don’t know too many of those around where I live.
Mine was built in 1992 and can easily support it.
But Connecticut is old, relative to the United States.
But my wife’s cousin bought a 1950’s house that had 60 amp service.
She couldn’t use a microwave until she upgraded her service.
She chose to upgrade to 200 amp service.
I would think that most people today want to use a microwave oven.
Being not as knowledgeable as I should be when it comes to amperage service, I am assuming people will need at least 100 amps. Am I wrong? Will the minimum need to be 200 amp service?
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Aug 31st, 2009 (9:17 am)Quoting Tony Posawatz, GM’s Volt vehicle line engineer.
“We’ve learned, and we so much want to make this work we are not missing anything.
We are negotiating with some prominent companies to get the home ready… house installations, or if you want the plug moved or a dedicated circuit or a special meter or 220V.
No we will actively be involved in setting the requirements for a partner. There are companies that did the EV-1.
In the showroom we want to have a system available in parallel to get the house ready.”
********************
To me, this sounds like your chevy dealer will have a Mr Goodwire ready to go out and setup your house for you.
I can hear the slimy dealer now, who gets part of Mr. Goodwire’s profits, telling you that you better be careful. Electrical fires are a real problem
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (9:22 am)At least you do not live in Arkansas. We may be the last to get a Volt.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (9:22 am)nb and Muddy
So basically homes will largely be a “non-issue”. As more and more major MFG’s get their wheels on the road the infrastructure “in the wild” (parking garages, malls, etc) will follow. Of course, some areas will get out ahead of the curve like NC (Of all places!). If you Google Plugin infrastructure and +”NC” you’ll get pages of their initiatives. VERY cool.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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-2
Aug 31st, 2009 (9:25 am)There are 10K Volts due out in 2011. Just how much effect do you think that has on anything?
Nearly Zilch. There are 160million or so cars already on the road in the US.
If you want to make a difference today, put a significant tax on oil, today, and then raise it significantly every year. THAT will cut oil use. People will car-pool, they will plan their trips better, they will use mass transit, they will keep their tires properly inflated, there will be millions of changes to individual behavior that will cut oil consumption IMMEDIATELY.
And the long-term effect is that companies will build EVs to meet a new demand for them. In a climate where traditional motor fuel has a heavy penalty, people will turn to EVs. In that environment, EVs won’t be a risk and GM will likely schedule a bigger build. Other companies will bring new EVs – and new vehicle designs – onto the market, pronto.
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+4
Aug 31st, 2009 (9:26 am)I agree. But this is also a point the dealer should stress to buyers.
I honestly don’t see a reason why someone who spent $40,000 on a car, couldn’t afford a couple hundred bucks for a dedicated circuit.
Also if I may be so bold (and I don’t mean to be politically incorrect, but that is how it is going to come out) someone who can afford to spend $40K on a car is probably an educated person. They should understand the concept of tripping a circuit and why it should be dedicated for the Volt.
I honestly mean no offense by my statements above.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (9:28 am)I have a question. I have a home that was beefed up to 200amps, a 220v outlet right in the garage being used by our dryer. Would it be as simple as unplugging the dryer and using the 220v outlet for my Volt at night? Hope so!…
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Aug 31st, 2009 (9:30 am)It would have to meet the SAE code that was just developed. And you would have to have a compliant 220V charger.
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+3
Aug 31st, 2009 (9:32 am)sounds like somebody has a case of the “mondays”
lol… j/k
GM should concentrate a little more on informing the public about EVs and specifically EREVs since they may be one of the very few EREVs being mass produced. I compare it to new technologies to do “old” things. The microwave and electric ranges, for example, took a long time to catch on from the old gas-burning stoves. GM cannot afford to wait a long time for the Volt to catch on.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (9:34 am)The GM supplied 110v cord is twenty feet. (refer to the chat last week.) http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
The cord looks to be ‘orange-e’.
It’s really is a poor idea to use an extension cord for any high power application. A better plan would be to add a plug near the Volts intended resting spot.
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+6
Aug 31st, 2009 (9:36 am)Yes, and build an EV infrastructure at the same time.
We have a very ubiquitous gasoline infrastructure here.
It took decades to make it so.
We’ll need government help and incentive to get an EV infrastructure built quickly. We spend billions and billions of dollars on foreign countries every year. We could spend some of that money building an infrastructure and helping Americans for a change. We can keep the money here.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (9:45 am)Very BOLD of you Dan!
I did the clean the garage part yesterday but will wait on running the power since I need to have the 220 charger in my possesion to properly install it anyway.
I do have a trusted master electrician to tie it all in for me (my dad) so when the time comes and the car is ordered I’ll have the garage ready before the car gets here.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (9:48 am)I’ve been saying that for a long time, if you can afford a Gen 1 Volt then you can afford to have dedicated power run to your garage.
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+10
Aug 31st, 2009 (9:49 am)dagwood55
It is a shame you can not live for a couple of years as one of the working poor. You need to know what it is like to worry everyday if your job will be there tomorrow and even if it is how can you afford to buy a different car to get to that job or even buy the gas to run it on.
You need to worry about how you can afford the fuel oil [or in a worse case] the kerosene to heat your small place during winter. And while living this way you hear about those who think the answer to everything is to raise taxes.
Those of us on this site most likely do not live in that world. But some of us do remember it and have compassion for those who still do.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (9:52 am)If an older home has a very old ~60 amp (low power) service that home owner ‘may’ have issues if they don’t upgrade that service.
Although it’s possible the Volts charger will be smart enough to ‘throttle’ charging, I do not know whether it will have that ability.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:00 am)It’s soundling like they are recommending a dedicated circuit with direct tie-in, so likely no.
Once again, if you can afford a $40k-ish car you can afford a couple hundred bucks to install the charger properly.
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+6
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:01 am)Europe has had high fuel taxes for years and the US seems to be leading the way in EV development.
Go figure.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:05 am)Yes, you are right, GM should focus on explaining the EREV concept to people moreso than worrying about a charging infrastructure. If anyone should be worried about charging infrastructure, it should be the pure BEV crowd…I’m looking at you Nissan, Tesla, Mitsu.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:14 am)Agreed, nuclearboy. This is something I just don’t understand. They should be way ahead of us on this.
Old man, well said. I grew up that way. My parents struggled. They taught me to go to school, earn a good living, and not struggle. I paid off my house in 5.5 years and will coast through life now at the age of 45.
I do, however, have college to pay for in about 7 years for two kids.
That will hurt a bit since they are only a year a part.
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+7
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:16 am)If you live in a ‘47 farm house but can afford a $40,000 – $100,000 (with dealer mark ups) Volt, you can afford to have a dedicated circuit installed the ol’ farmhouse. You will also be tech savvy enough to understand the load problem and not blame GM for the crappy wiring in your house.
Again, much ado about nothing.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:17 am)Tom
To me it is more than just a car. It is the begining of the end of big oil controlling our day to day living and the beginning of the end of us funding both sides of the war on terror.
It is a step we can make to try to end or at least slow down global warming [I know it has a gas engine]. But for most of us that ICE will see little use.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:18 am)The local colleges better start gearing up for all the electrical infrastructure upgrades that are going to need to be done in the next 20 years. Electrical engineers and electricians will be in high demand. Tell your kids to study electrical engineering, battery science, and chemical engineering. They might make more than the attorneys and doctors before long. America is going to need them to match all the engineers coming out of college in Asia.
I bet a bunch of small businesses in every town are created to handle the demand for electrical system upgrades. Companies that “get in on the ground floor” and make a name for themselves will probably make plenty of money. Cars like the Volt and other plug-ins will be a definite driver for “green jobs”. That and the “smart grid”.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:19 am)LOL!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:19 am)It’s not safe to use any extension cord.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+3
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:21 am)The farmhouse example might not have been the best but his point is well taken. Most circuits are 15 or 20 amp. If you plugged a big hair dryer and the Volt into one of those circuits it might well trip the circuit or the gfi. I may be more sensitive to this because the main outlet in the garage (the one it would be most natural to use for the Volt) is on the same circuit as the downstairs bathroom. Others aren’t, but even those circuits have been tripped by workmen using power tools.
You’re right that this is a transient issue, but to get to the other side you have to get through the transition. Most people don’t have problems with appliances that draw a lot of power, say a microwave or stove or a washer/dryer, because the house was either wired for them or they’ve been rewired for them. EVs are going to be a new addition so the existing wiring won’t accommodate them nearly as easily.
Obviously springing for a dedicated 240 charger would be ideal. This would be simple for me because the laundry is on the other side of the garage wall and we have a gas dryer. But others might not find it so easy. The panel might be maxed out, and its even possible that the service to the entire house needs to be upgraded (some people who have put in solar systems need to do this).
Were we to be so lucky, with the 240 service I’d also worry about a bunch of people plugging their Volts/EVs in all at the same time. This could blow the neighborhood transformer.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:22 am)Good point. All the high fuel taxes in the world didn’t bring EVs to Europe or Japan. Nor did it squash new car sales and force everybody into mass transit.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:24 am)Funny how it comes back to lack of trust in the dealer network isn’t it?
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:28 am)This is why it is paramount that the participating Chevy dealers have an educated sales force that actually knows about what they are selling. This will be tougher than the infrastructure problem for GM solve! LOL At the point of sale the consumer should be made aware of the car’s charging requirements [b]before[/b] the sale.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:30 am)Rashiid
You and I have about the same story and I am pleased you are also blessed with compassion for those who did not get away from poverty’s grip.
I would be all for a tax on oil if we can come up with a way to protect the working poor. Maybe a tax type credit card that would pay the taxes and leave them oweing the amount of the nontaxed product.
College cost are a great investment in your family. But,dang how high can they go? Glad those cost are also behind me!!
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:31 am)I have been to Europe many times and do notice that they have a great train system and usually the cities have better metro systems than in the US.
The high gas prices may have pushed people into mass transit a little more. Of course you must add “no where to park” and “small streets” in the cities to the mix.
None the less,
The electric cars, if they had been viable prior to this time, should have been popular in Europe.
I take this to mean that EV’s really have not been practical up until this time. The batteries just were not ready in the past and they are just barely getting there now.
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+4
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:32 am)dagwood55,
So your suggestion is to do nothing then?
10000 Volts seems like a good start to me, it will not change the world in year 1, but it might just show the path to real change. Conveniently the 60k planned production number for year 2 and so on was omitted from your comment.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:33 am)Dan,
Don’t forget that you don’t need a 240 volt outlet, you need a 240 volt junction box for the VOLT cable. GM is making it clear that their cable must be hard wired and not plugged in.
The junction box size/type, 240 volt circuit breaker amperage and wire size will be the critical details.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:33 am)Tom,
Probably V2H and V2G (vehicle to home, vehicle to grid). Gen 2, 3, or 4 will allow you to run your house off the car, etc
Hope this helps,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:37 am)Dan,
By chance alone, I’m one step ahead of you. I have the dedicated 220 line ready (from an existing, but no longer used Hot tub). And it’s RIGHT by the garage (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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+4
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:40 am)Dagwood55
Beyond a doubt you live in a metro area where there is 150 years of infrastructure available.
Your proposal would place an enormous tax on the farmers, ranchers, and others that live out in the sticks where it might be 75 miles to the nearest mass transit.
Of course, in your way of thinking, all people could be required to live within five blocks of mass transport.
I don’t know where you can justify that in the Constitution.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:40 am)Gen 1 buyers will be going in with their eyes wide open. They will be hard to get and they will be pretty educated about the car and it’s operation.
The later generation car buyers (as production and sales ramp up) will possibly require an EV primer so they understand what they are getting into. This could be done in an intelligent fashion that doesn’t insult the customer. Possibly in a multimedia documentry style movie. Either the disk comes with the car so they can watch it at home or there is a Volt Experience video room at the dealer. (Maybe both)
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:41 am)We have not succeeded on E85 yet its a really cleaver idea. I’m not referring to corn but the more advanced stuff.
This is a great point. E85 is a viable option which really needs to be pursued, but at this point in time we still don’t have a single E85 station where I live. Given that supposedly we’ll have 1000 public EV charging stations by the end of next year this is insane.
E85 has significantly more potential in the near term to reduce petroleum usage. I’d like to see more infrastructure for it.
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+3
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:46 am)The point isn’t the 10,000 Volts that GM is coming out with in 2011. It’s the, hopefully, 60,000 they will come out with in 2012. And 2013, 2014, etc. Not to mention the 100,000+ BEVs Nissan’s planning on coming out with in a similar time period. And the other EVs and PHEVs that numerous other companies are planning to come out with.
As a country we need to think ahead if we hope to reduce our use of foreign oil. Personally, I don’t think we do anywhere near enough of that.
I’m all for raising the gasoline tax. But we also need to help people by funding a better alternative. This country is too auto dependent to think that driving less and swapping compact cars for SUVS is going to be a long term solution. It will help. But it’s not even close to being enough.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:48 am)Very Cool.
There is a similar place in Wetaskiwin Alberta. (Near Edmonton)
http://www.machinemuseum.net/
The Reynolds-Alberta Museum.
They have everything from Farming equipment, to a Baker Electric, to a Duesy (wow!) To a real dragline outside (those things are HUGE!) Not to mention the Canadian Aircraft hall of fame. (some beautiful aircraft on display both inside and out.)
When I was ther they had a salute to the Model T show happening. I had no idea the model T had been made into so many things!
Definately worth a stop.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:48 am)WTF?
The infrastructure is everywhere!
Why is GM trying to “please all of the people all of the time”? When has that strategy worked? Who’s going to pay for all this “Charging infrastructure”? More taxes for the public or higher premium for utility carriers? This is a crock of sh|t. If you don’t have the means to charge the car or if you are NOT willing to fork up the $$$ to get charging at home then this is not the car for you. One has to be smart enough to understand whether or not they have the means to charge, if not, then guess what, you’ll be driving in CS mode most of the time.
What a stupid a$$nine thing to come out and say “If you live in a 1947 farmhouse in Connecticut and you want to plug it in”, crecibility shot to pigsh|t. Who are you trying to kid here? If you can afford a $43,000.00 car, you should be able to afford at least $1500 for an electrician to wire you a dedicated circuit for charging. I dunno anyone living in those households and have a >$40,000.00 car do you guys? If your dumb enough to buy one and you don’t have the means to charge than you’re on your own, duh. That’s like going to buy a pool pump, filter and chlorine and you don’t have a pool.
In the words of statik, “I have a plug in my garage and I know how to use it.”.
Bullsh|t comments like these just burns my a$$. All they want to do is have some grand PR opening of charge stations to help “greenify” themselves. Just get the friggin Volt out to the public already!!!
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:50 am)A gas tax doesn’t have to hurt the working poor. We could structure it as a (partially) revenue neutral tax, and give people under a certain income a tax credit for the amount. Many of the working poor might even be better off than they were before.
That way we keep the higher price of gas (and increase people’s incentive to conserve), reduce the deficit, and help those less fortunate at the same time.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:53 am)I don’t think so. The charger has to be hard wired. So you wouldn’t be able to unplug the dryer and plug in the Volt. It would be more of a “one or the other” type situation.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:54 am)DaV8or Reply:
If you live in a ‘47 farm house but can afford a $40,000 – $100,000 (with dealer mark ups) Volt, you can afford to have a dedicated circuit installed the ol’ farmhouse. You will also be tech savvy enough to understand the load problem and not blame GM for the crappy wiring in your house.
Again, much ado about nothing.
______________________
Wow, definitely no assumptions in that statement of fact!!!!
No crystal ball needed for wider acceptance of electric vehicles, no correspondence between driving the prices down in gen II and III, having cheaper Voltecs sold in the near future and a much broader buying public and their problems and needs with the technology to take into account.
Yup GM should rush forward with their eyes wide shut and blindfolds on and let the dust settle where it may. Nothing ensures success like a good plan to do absolutely nothing.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:54 am)Denmark has a %100 tax on cars (new and used sales) plus very high oil taxes. Most people (Most meaning over %50) ride bikes or take public transit. I do find it interesting that they didn’t pioneer mass EV production but instead went for free or public transit.
On a side note, Denmark has some of the most beautiful women in the world and it’s no surprise why they’re in such good shape when so many of them bike or walk everywhere they go. You can’t stop at any corner in copenhagen during rushour without seeing at least one woman in a skirt or a mother with a kid or two in a trailer attached to her bike.
When you do see cars, a lot of them are micro diesels that use less fuel than a prius.
I’m not advocating we should go to bicycles (although it may solve some of the rising health care costs) or microcars but it is interesting that high oil and car ownership costs didn’t spur innovation. And that people figure out other ways to travel. It’s not like Denmark has great weather (comparable to Seattle)
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Aug 31st, 2009 (10:55 am)The eurpean nations use more mass transit and bicycles, very efficient cars and DIESELS..the bulk energy is in heating systems.
For example, a fuel oil boier system (typical in90% of homes in Europe) in Germany must be inspected annually. Fail you have 30 days to fix, or they TAKE IT OUT. it is MANDATED 90% heating efficiency..everywhere everyone.
They are ahead of us..remember most countries are smaller than many states…travel by mass transit is way ahead of us (just go there and take the train..I did it for 3 weeks. AMAZING rail system)
the auto in Europe is a passion, is important, but like here..4 cars, most SUVs for mom 1 kid and the dog… there 1 car, maybe 2..
WE are energy pigs…
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:56 am)My trailer park has outlets. We’re plug-in-ready.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (10:58 am)” somebody is going to ‘bodge’ their connector onto their dryer plug burn the house down and blame GM.”
BINGO!!
I work in HVAC and a customers basement flooded one time vecuase of rain..they said it was due to the PVC flue pipe onthe high efficiency furnace we installed…you do not sue anyone..you look for deep pockets..
America, land of the lawsuit…clogging our judicial system because NOTHING is EVER your fault…
Lady justice is not blind…she recently gouged her eyes out in shame…
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:00 am)Good morning Captain!
It’s a clear day for sailing I hope!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:00 am)This is pretty negative! The reason for having a partner would be to benefit you as a consumer. This isn’t a profit center for GM. GM wants to ensure that the person doing the install understands the product, understands what needs to be done, has the required licenses, is bonded, and is competent to do the work.
I see this as a great service. If by some chance there is a fire you definitely want a licensed contractor to have done the work if for no reason other than your insurance company won’t pay if it wasn’t.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:01 am)I cant drive to work on my daughter hair dryer, lol
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:01 am)“The local colleges better start gearing up for all the electrical infrastructure upgrades that are going to need to be done in the next 20 years.”
That’s an easy one. Every parking lot at the colleges have light poles to illuminate at night. They also have powered metered parking that run on 120VAC. Retrofit a fraction of the poles/meters with a 120VAC charge port and call it done. Infrastructure is everywhere.
Put a check box on this item, it’s done. But who’s to pay for this? GM? Nope, take a guess.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:02 am)I’ve met quite a few people with “more money than brains.” It’s a very big stretch to assume anyone with money is also a)educated, and//or b)intelligent. And it’s an even bigger stretch to assume that anyone is one of those things will automatically know about circuit breaking.
I, for one, have several degrees. And, to be honest, I never really thought about circuits or power breaking. To me, an electric appliance is something you buy, and then you bring it home and plug it in. (By the way, I’ve never blown a circuit.)
If the dealer told me about it, then, yes, I would understand the concept. And I would be more than willing to spend the couple hundred dollars. (Although in New York, I suspect I’d have to pay a lot more than that to have it installed.) But the dealer would probably have to warn me.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:06 am)lol…
long time no post 4 me. Been out for a while in training (isolated network) and furloughs.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:07 am)Old man, you are so correct. I was looking for someone to mention this, because the nightly VOLT charge will require living in a location where a minimum of a 120 volt outlet is nearby. Long extension cords are not going to be popular or allowed by property managers. Can you imagine the blown circuits when people use a screw-in adapter in a nearby outdoor light fixture. It’s an ungrounded circuit that some will try to use, but most likely would be overloaded when trying to charge a car through it.
Government tax credits for 240 volt electric car charging station infrastructure would help get apartment owners and developers up to speed quickly. Give 100% credit and a deadline to get the projects finished fast. A law is needed to require a certain percentage of charging stations, just like the disabled parking spaces are required by code today.
Who pays for this electric usage? A huge market for pay per charge stations seems likely, unless continued credits or subsidies would be available from local, state or federal governments.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:09 am)Personally, I am going to stick with the 120VAC charge port or onboard. Although I do have access to a 240VAC, the charge times won’t benefit me. I prefer to sit for a while with my beer while the car charges.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:09 am)This one seems pretty easy…..
Local Chevy Dealers sets up a list of local electrical contractors who can do the work; maybe with some kind of discount or coupon; then refers that work out to the local economy. A win-win for all!
Oh rats! I forgot….. Lutz wants local dealers out of the equation by selling VOLTs through eBay where they won’t give a rat’s A$$ about Customer Satisfaction or follow-up service revenue….
Nevermind.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:09 am)Wow…you guys are so smart and know all. I am in awe of you all…. except…
Sorry to burst your confidence bubble but many of the homes in Silicon Valley, for example, which were built in the 40’s. 50’s and 60’s sell for $400,000 and up. Silicon Valley has the cash, the will and the reputation to push electric cars and will likely be one of the first areas to get the Volt. It is already the home of Tesla. The wiring in these homes is old and much work has to be done to bring them up to snuff. Don’t jump to conclusions that you have little or no actual knowledge of.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:10 am)Obviously charging will be an issue. Where I live, Nissan will do a free install of home chargers for the first 1000 people who buy a Leaf.
http://www.kpbs.org/news/2009/aug/27/electric-cars-san-diego/
Maybe GM will consider something similar for the 500 Volts that the DOE is funding as part of the test. As a FYI, the estimated cost for getting one of these devils installed is $500 for the hardware plus installation costs.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:12 am)Toyota got HOV sticker from California for the Prius. And there are still hybrids (Prius and otherwise) on the road that have the sticker. So, I, for one, think it’s unfair that GM won’t get them for the Vot.
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+3
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:13 am)This quote from “2001: A Space Odyssey” just sprang to mind.
“Look Dave, I can see you’re really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.”
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:14 am)The amount of educating by dealers and their interaction with the larger community and how GM itself carries on from where dealers leave off and where GM partners carry on form there is part of GM’s infrastructure issues.
From the article: “We are negotiating with some prominent companies to get the home ready… house installations, or if you want the plug moved or a dedicated circuit or a special meter or 220V.”
And “The electric company is a driver of special benefits too. People would be losing out. Wouldn’t you want someone to set a standard that EV drivers get the best parking or the HOV lane? This helps mitigate the initial cost because you get the extra value. You may get free charging.”
What if all the cities or states around you get these and you don’t, are you going to be happy? What if power companies have night time use discounts for everyone but your area, and instead you get hit with a surcharge for your Volt because it moves you into a higher usage category? Will you want to tell GM don’t worry about it just sell the Volts. Or would you want them to lobby for better rates?
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:14 am)“Bottom line, all this “infrastructure” stuff appears simply an effort to gain an additional revenue stream – the Volt home charging package.”
Truedat!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:15 am)I believe that this is what they are working on. There is still an EV1 charging station at LAX. Don’t know that it works anymore but the stations were still there a year ago.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:16 am)lol….
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:17 am)This makes little to no sense and seems needlessly geographically discriminatory. My money is just as green as anybody else’s money.
If GM is so concerned about house wiring, then why did they design a 120V charger that you could plug into a household outlet? They should have stuck with the 240V only so people would have to get a separate circuit. Sounds to me like GM is creating another topic of blame when very few Volts are produced and sold. “We could make more Volts if only the infrastructure was available.”
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+3
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:17 am)It may be even simpler than what you’ve suggested. All the gas tax proposals I’ve seen couple that tax with a reduction in payroll taxes so as to be revenue neutral.
That said, there will be no gas tax. Cap&Trade is on the table. Gas taxes are not.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:18 am)The Prius qualifies for HOV stickers like any other car, and any manufacturer with a big battery will qualify the buyer for tax credits. Let the competition begin!!!!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:19 am)Well put Laura!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:20 am)I agree this should be GM’s long term goal for the Volt and its siblings. They must work on infrastructure changes, but that will not happen over night. It will take years, maybe a couple or three decades. And a lot of cost. But none of this should drive which city gets the first Volts because no city is going to have that type of infrastructure changes in place. Sure, some of them will make the commitment and have some progress made toward achieving it, but it is unrealistic to think that it can be accomplished within the next 18 months. So, some other factor or factors will determine the cities where the Volt will be released. GM needs to be more upfront with us about this. Just come out and name the cities. We know they will be large cities with Washington, DC selected for political reasons. I think most of us could name the cities if asked to submit a list of names.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:24 am)Hey, welcome back. Were you on vacation?
I do think the charging issue is far less of an issue for the Volt than for a BEV. If your circuit trips and you don’t get a charge, or only get a partial charge, then it’s no big deal with EREV. That’s one of the beauties of the design.
But having the ability to get a fast charge would be worth it. So you’d have two chargers: one hard wired at home and one in the trunk so you could “steal” a charge as you drank those beers in your car with your beautiful companion.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:24 am)What’s the difference, all big batteries with plugs?
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:24 am)How does this differ from the statement that “anyone who can afford a $40k car can afford to install the plug to support it”?
If this requires upgrading the service to the home then they likely needed it anyway to support the big screen TV.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:24 am)Or, it could be on a memory chip in the dash video that replaces the owner’s manual.
To me (an electrician licensed to do residential) it’s no big thing. To most people, electricity, telephones, DVRs etc are ‘magic boxes’ and they have no clue how it works.
Fortunately, they don’t have to know. There are people able and willing to assist for a price.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:25 am)Chicken and egg issue or it’ll happen when it happens issue???
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:26 am)Good question. I wish I had the answer, but I don’t. I built my house in 1986. I don’t remember what type of amperage it has, but I am sure it was the “norm” for 1986. I guess I could ask my cousin, the Master Electrician. He could tell me very quickly.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:28 am)Could Volt dealerships as part of the sale include a 220v installation at the buyer’s home? This might be like the rollout of satellite television when mobile electricians provided “free” home dish installation.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:28 am)The posts here realize a vast disparity between having a home with garage and living in an apartment. Which brings us to the highlight photo showing a street-pole mounted charger facility – the heart of the issue. We have here an open cable between the J-box & car. Possibly in certain protected areas. However, on the scale of parking meter distribution – no way. Ask any city attorney about open live cables being exposed at ground level to unsupervised access. Weather, vandalism, related homeland defense issues, accidents – both being the result and being the cause and then all the electrical codes. Bottom line: charging stations will be limited. Not in the same way gas stations are controlled, but limited to either commercial areas or areas with controlled access. Some apartments are and some aren’t. The Volt marketing folks have a truly historic challenge. This raises an argument for the ER engine to be able to in certain circumstances enable a standalone charge.
And its this kind of logic that propels the alternative concept of battery swapping. Of course, no major auto mfg is pursuing this alternative concept at this time.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:30 am)There’s already a bunch of companies that see an “electric car world” coming SOON … all over the world.
http://earth2tech.com/2009/08/31/13-electric-car-smart-charging-players-to-watch/
They’re doing their R&D and training their people and so forth. They’re going to be the guys that build the replacements for gasoline pumps … or at least downsize the gasoline pump industry somewhat in the short run. A lot of us Volt owners who drive under 40 miles will forget what it’s like to get that big whiff of gasoline fumes when you have to pump gas every week or so. Less tailpipe emissions to have to inhale too.
No doubt, you’ll be seeing a lot of new “electricity pumps” everywhere in the next 20 years. It should be a big industry before long. Electric cars will eventually reach a “tipping point” and then it’ll really explode. Smart charging stations in every parking garage and every parking lot maybe.
Maybe by 2015 or so, they can make the charging stations WIRELESS. Fewer electrical cords to have to look at. Maybe some company will invent a wireless Smart Charging station that retracts up and down into the pavement (Star Trek style) in the parking lots so you won’t have to see them unless it is actively charging your car. I like new energy technologies to be as invisible and inconspicuous as possible. Make them look like small trees or bushes or something? Maybe a landscape guy can help integrate them into background a little better.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:30 am)I don’t think anyone is saying GM should go forth with the Voltec systems without a plan to convince and aid local governments and electric utilities to prepare for the future of electric vehicles. They do have a sound plan, it seems. It is just that there is no time to get all the infrastructure changes done in any city prior to the launch of the Volt in late 2010. But they are advancing down the road towards a plan and they are involving local, state and federal governments along with electric utilities. It is a good start. A lot of work is still to be done.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:31 am)People forget that the iPod was lambasted when it was first released. Half the genius of the iPod is iTunes. If GM can get communities to set up a network of convenient charging stations then they are not only going to assist in the adoption of BEV’s and EREV’s (and ensuring that their adopted charging plug becomes THE standard rather than A standard) but they will help to ensure the Volt’s success. People who buy the car WANT to use the battery… they want to plug it in. People will travel to a Starbucks to use the WiFi.. and possibly order an overpriced latte.
There are also going to be other effects. Who is to say that new businesses will not spring up around these charging stations or adapt to them (i.e. a gas station adds a power charging area for half a dozen vehicles). They know you are going to be on foot in the area for a while so you will likely do a little shopping too. People who own a Volt are likely going to have disposable income and thus be the kind of people you WANT to have park near your store. Granted, this is just the start so it will be very small, but you need to see where this could grow to in order to understand why it may be an issue for GM.
Just thinking out loud.
Harrier
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:33 am)Good point, hopefully there will be a chance to look at how the first buyers are charging to get the policy decisions right before we build out to the point of no return;
and then it’s a huge expensive fight to do things that make any sense. If every one says I don’t feel comfortable driving during the day with less than 3/4 capacity and it’s my right to charge up any time, who will volunteer to chip in for the trillions of dollars needed to upgrade the grid(s)?
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:33 am)You are not wrong but if you don’t want it then charge at 110v, the cord will be in the trunk… no problem!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:33 am)Been out for a while in training (isolated network) and furloughs/fishing.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:34 am)A true sailor, a man of patence!
With a strong forearm!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:35 am)You were missed my friend!
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:37 am)You have a very good point. Someone should capitalize on this.
Or put a charge port in the parking lot at H( . y . )TERS!
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+3
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:38 am)I am not part of the Global Warming crowd myself and while I find many of the things they say to be silly and somewhat stupid, I would never say there wasn’t intelligence there. They only believe one side of the story, but they are not dumb. They are no more smarter or less smart than the general population. Although I suspect most of them would disagree with me on that.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:42 am)I don’t see it that way at all.
There is no problem charging a Volt on 110v, it’ll come with the cord. This is the one that you can use pretty much anywhere to grab a quick top up.
The 220/240v charging in their garage will be an option for those who are impatient, like me!
Public charging stations as they appear will also be an option.
As for Geographically discriminatory… there will only be 10000 Volts year 1, there ain’t enough to go around the world then. So sell them in more concentrated area’s so they can service the cars properly and then roll out in a logical planned manner.
I KNOW I won’t get one for a couple years after production starts.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:45 am)“In NC, Raleigh (the state capitol but not the largest city) claims to be building infrastructure.”
- – - – - – - – - – -
RB,
Heading for NC. tomorrow. I read about a McDonald’s with a charging station in Cary * (just W. of Raleigh) w/i battery range. So I plan on driving there (for lunch) just for the Charge. Like to encourage it. Don’t think it will be too crowded!
NC. does seem to be ahead of many states in terms of PHEV’s and infrastructure. And Duke Energy is working to get “smart charging” going.
*1299 Kildaire Farm Rd.
=D~~~~
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-1
Aug 31st, 2009 (11:53 am)Thanks for the laugh. We all chuckle at the stupidity of global warming believers; especially all of those idiotic scientists at NASA and the Defense Department. I mean, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to …. umm…. oh, wait… they ARE rocket scientists! Where was I going with this again?
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:55 am)I was thinking along the lines of a live action movie with somebody famous (Tom Hanks drives an electric car for example) walking through the benefits of electric cars and the day to day usage of them.
This could include the advantages of the 220/240v charge station.
Personally I ‘could’ safely run a new circuit to my garage for the Volt myself, but I have ready access to a very experienced electrician and I’d be foolish to not use his expertise.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:58 am)“This could blow the neighborhood transformer.”
_______________________________________________
Not likely! If your charging at night, you aren’t using much electricity unless of course you stay up at night.
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
states that : There will be a portable 120 V unit (R) that can be plugged into any standard receptacle. It will be able to recharge the car fully in 6 hours at 12 amps or 8 hours at 8 amps.
and
The other device option (L) is a 240 V stationary wall-mounted unit that has to be installed in the owners garage per code. This unit running at 16 amps can recharge the Volt in 3 hours.
With only 8, 12, or 16 amps being used there wouldn’t be that much of a demand on the neighborhood transformer. The real issue is whether the customer has his house properly wired to handle what is needed within the home. With 200 amp panel serving the house, there should be several slots for breakers so that a new circuit can be added for the Volt charging. In some situations that will not be needed; where the garage is on a separate circuit, you should be able to charge the Volt as long as you don’t have some other device working at that time. You would need to check the amperage of the garage breaker. Most likely a 20 amp breaker would be preferable but a 15 amp breaker could also be used; the 240 volt charger would not work here unless a 20 amp breaker is used (240 breakers I’ve seen are 30 amp and above). The article correctly points out why GM is concerned about infrastructure; now that the driver will be using his home as “a gas station”, we don’t want homes burning down while charging your Volt because of inadequate wiring! That would be like pouring gasoline all over the house and lighting a match to it.
One poster, a while back, mentioned installing a separate circuit in his yard into which the plug could be inserted. That’s an idea that many may end up with because their garages are used for storage rather than parking their vehicle.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (11:59 am)I believe his point is that GM is pushing for the build out of a public charge infrastructure though ironically the Volt is the one requiring it LEAST.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (12:02 pm)1) Ethanol failed because fossil fuels are still cheaper in this country.
2) Hydrogen failed because the technology is not ready nor may never be. It’s highly inefficient (4 times less than BEV technology) and costs way too much.
3) EV1 failed because the batteries were not ready. They are still not ready to have the same convenience as the standard ICE vehicle (quick charge, long life, low cost, very reliable).
So, for GM to be concentrating on the Volt owner’s home and business make great sense. That is where they will be doing most of the charging and if that works great I think the driver will have a good experience.
I have suggested many times that GM get into electrification infrastructure as Car 2.0 emerges. I hope they jump on. Huge potential global market. Simply massive.
I personally feel the best EV infrastructure concept out there right now is Better Place. Pure genius and I understand why so many people are against it. GM doesn’t understand why they keep failing but the answers are simple and right in front of their face! Why Can’t they see the value in the swap model? Nissan understood right away and is busy building the early runs of their soon-to-be massive production. It’s so obvious to many but the opposition is tremendous. It’s almost too radical of an idea and too far from the hydrogen, hybrid, EREV, plug-in BEV concepts that perhaps it’s just going to take some time and real-world verified operational evidence to be universally accepted. Nissan is now at least a year ahead and counting.
Note to GM: Guys, would it hurt to have a tiny budget for a Better Place compatible swap vehicle? You could drop it into the Israel market for early testing and say you want to satisfy ALL electrified markets. That PR is much better than saying you are covering your butt, which would also be true.
Let’s say GM does this AND Better Place is a hit, which I think it will be. GM is in the lead and then has their hand in the biggest prize of all – building out smart-grid electrification infrastructure. This multi decade project will propel and define GM for the rest of the century.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:02 pm)This is less of an issue inthe north where most parking lots already have block heater plug in’s for winter.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:13 pm)hermant,
I like the Mr Goodwire joke. GM may well want to Trade mark that.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:17 pm)kdawg,
Eventually there will be a LOT more “going on” than providing juice for the vehicle. I’m pretty sure you’ve posted about V2G etc. That’s gen 2 or 3 though. Once we hit a critical mass for storage, it’s going to get even more exciting!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:18 pm)I have been there for a week and rented a bike for getting around. I agree wtih your observations. I saw many “in-shape” people and even Grandmothers riding a bike.
I also marvelled at the tiny cars and apparent anything goes attittude when it comes to transportation.
I came back wondering why I could not buy a 1200 Lb car or at least why I never see them in the US.
We have to have tough structural vehicles to pass crash safety tests and we need curtains of airbags all around us.
In Denmark, people ride scooters with no helmet. I loved it.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (12:19 pm)old man,
Wouldn’t it be neat to see a movie and walk out to a basically “full” tank?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:26 pm)frankyB:
Well said. +1
I don’t know about other states, but the electric utilities in CA are taking a strong leadership role in this infrastructure issue. Hey, it’s the marketing opportunity of a lifetime for them. I also think that it is a great opportunity for small businesses and retail businesses of all kinds to make a few extra bucks, and points with their customers. I would sure put a couple of coin or credit card operated charging boxes in my parking lot. If there were enough places to “opportunity charge”, we could really kill gas consumption.
We just returned from New York. We stayed on Long Island and did not rent a car. Everywhere we went, we took the train/subway, including into Manhattan 3 times. A total, instant, culture change from the LA lifestyle.
NYC could not exist in its present state without its highly developed transit system. The road net is NOWHERE near adequate to handle any more traffic, let alone what is there already.
Even taking Tex-Ari’s point that much of the infrastructure is 150 years (well, 100 actually) old, still it is a fact that NYC achieves much of what is done in Europe. Ditto San Francisco. I assume that a lot of their basic infrastructure is pretty much the same age.
When cities gridlock to the point that there is no alternative, change will come. It’s the American way.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:27 pm)Amen. “Hydrogen Highway”, LOL. Vintage schwarzenegger BS.
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+2
Aug 31st, 2009 (12:31 pm)Keep in mind that the 70,000 Volts which will be produced in 2010/11 will be a tiny drop in the bucket of overall US car sales. They will most certainly go to “early adopters”, who will be well aware of this issue. Maybe a few years, and a few hundred thousand Volts, down the road this will be a problem. But by then the public should have had enough time to “get it”.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (12:33 pm)And the Prius got a huge kick start in SoCal from single occupant access to the HOV lanes. So, if we can do it for Toyota, why not do it for GM, which WE own, BTW.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (12:37 pm)MuddyRoverBob:
Moi?? Bodge? Never, LOL!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:41 pm)Tagamet:
That was my sense of what he meant as well.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:44 pm)HEYYYY!! There he is! Where ya been man? There was almost a whole thread the other day on where you were. I won’t tell you what my suspicion was, LOL.
To look at most of the trailer parks in out town, if you plugged a Volt into 220, you would probably shut the whole place down, hehehe.
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-1
Aug 31st, 2009 (12:46 pm)If can replace power lines in two states in 14 day’s what concern .
Dude are you daffed it make money .
God Bless
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:46 pm)Really – there is another part to the story not pushed by big oil ?
When you have thousands of scientists including nobel laureats on one side and Rish Limbaugh and Sarah Palin on the other side – it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out which side is right.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:49 pm)LOL!
With the knowledge that you have a 1917 auto I will take that as sarcasm and laugh!
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (12:50 pm)Heeee’s Baaaack!
So much the better!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:59 pm)Local dealers will still be delivery and service (and probably financing). eBay is just another sales vector. eBay doesn’t deliver or service squat.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (12:59 pm)The only problem with that is the world arena: with a significant worsening of wars, the price of petroleum would result in the tax just making matters worse. With all the yelling and screaming by conservatives about our rising deficit and especially taxation, you are one unpopular dud! I am no conservative by their definition of the term, but I do believe in conservative principles when it comes to national debt. All aside, the price of petroleum will determine how fast we convert over to an electric economy, and I bet that we will see over $4.00 per gallon prices in 2011, possibly sooner, or even worse if the wars get worse.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (1:04 pm)Denmark’s a lot smaller than the US. And things are much closer together. So their solutions are different than ours.
That said, I agree that mass transit is the best solution. But, at this point, they have it, and we don’t. (At least not outside New York, Boston, Washington, and a couple of other places.) And it’s prohibitively expensive to build one at at this point.
The MTA (the mass transit authority in New York) has an exhibit detailing their expansions plans. The estimated price of added one more line to an already functional subway system? Over $7 billion dollars. And lots of people are expecting the price to go up.
http://newyork.timeout.com/articles/own-this-city/71547/the-future-beneath-us
That said, I think we should build more trains. I just don’t think that at this point we can build an entire rail system that can serve us as well as the ones in Europe. At least not without a trillion dollar price tag. And we don’t have that kind money right now. Maybe ever.
And even if we did? Building trains takes a really long time. We need something to use in the interim.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (1:05 pm)You talk a good talk. I just don’t know if Nissan and Better Place can walk a good walk. Time will tell. But I do agree it would be smart of GM to be invested in the technology in some small way. If there was success that could give them a way to expand quickly or if a failure they could get out quickly.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (1:06 pm)The Nissan LEAF will not have these problems. They have already addressed city infrastructure. GM is waaaaaaay behind. I guess we will just continued to see the New GM only in our rear view mirror.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (1:08 pm)Not sure why you got voted down… that’s funny!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (1:09 pm)Sorry, but speak for yourself! Those people you refer to as sheep may have children who will no doubt be up on all this so called new technology and quite willing to help mom or dad understand it all if need be.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (1:10 pm)What’d be really cool is if I could get the charging cable now, instead of a couple of years from now. Just the coolness of having that cord on the wall is worth some major cred.
Plus, maybe I could register somehow with GM to show that I’m ‘Volt ready’.
BTW, GM… Where’s my Volt lid, tee-shirt and other gear? I’ve been looking and I don’t see any 230 (or other Volt) caps out there anywhere. Where’s my 1/16 scale model? I got a PT Cruiser one in WalMart well before their launch day.
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Aug 31st, 2009 (1:12 pm)Dealers all require their salesmen to read the technical literature on the vehicles they sell. You can bet that this will be no problem compared to educating the population. IMHO, it is a problem but no where near difficult to solve.
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+6
Aug 31st, 2009 (1:13 pm)As I said, to the Global Warming crowd there is only one side of the story. You just proved my point very well, thank you!
Tell me what caused the many recorded warming and cooling periods that science has shown as having occurred over the millions of years? Where was big oil and big business 10 million years ago, or even 10,000 years ago. How about the small year without summer about 150 years ago?
Yes, man does contribute to global warming. It also has been determined that natural occurring CO2 from the worlds oceans and methane release is much greater that all man does. I do agree our cattle heards release too much methane. But I do remember someone in the Global Warming crowd did suggest placing equipment on each cow to catch and process the methane. It was only going to cost the farmer/rancher about $25,000 per cow and shorten the cow’s life by about one-half. But, hey, it is all good. Thank goodness some people laughed so hard at that idea that it was dropped. Quickly!
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Aug 31st, 2009 (1:14 pm)My problem with this thread is that there will be only 10K 2011 Volts produced in 2010/2011. With the economy in the state it is in, local governments have no spare cash for implementing future infrastucture needs. If these are the requirements, then CA should get zero Volts. I am pretty sure that right now Arnold does not have “install local charging stations” at the top of his list….
So why punish almost the entire country by withholding the availability of Volts in those areas?
This is a long term need, not something that has to be done by Nov, 2010 and should not affect the initial launch.
And as far as the wiring needs for the garage, all the GM dealers have to do is have the purchaser sign off on the necessary requirements, or else GM should have a local electrician come out and do an inspection. I am a bit lost as to why GM feels this is their problem. If I try to install Windows 7 on a 386 based PC, and it does not load, is it M/S fault? No, because they had a list of the necessary requirements to use the software. If I don’t meet those specs, it is my problem to get it right. We need to bring back some personal responsibility here……
BTW: I have a dedicated 120 V 20 Amp AC outlet ready to go in my garage, and I could install a 240 V dedicated line within three or four hours. Does that move me up on the GM availability list? After all, I am “infrastructure ready”!!!!
JMHO
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Aug 31st, 2009 (1:18 pm)Any electrician can do this job.
GM should mention that it needs to be done right for sure but does not need teams in place to do it.
Whats more dangerous, my new Volt in the driveway or my new Jacuzzi tub that needed 2 dedicated 20 AMP circuits. One for the heater and one for the jets. I stand around the tub with my feet in water pushing electrical buttons. No one at the tub store said a thing about the installation issues. There was a manual that noted how things must be and an electrician took care of it. Problem solved.
GM is making this car charging sound too complex to me.
Like I said at the beginning, any electrician can do this. It has a certain power draw. Who cares if it is a car or a pool heater. It’s all about the same for an electrician.
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (1:18 pm)I am sorry Mitch, but I hate to point out that idiots do not have a development cycle. That is why they are idiots. I must say we have plenty of idiots on every side of every issue these days. Sometimes a person runs across an idea that is so appealing to them that they stop investigating other avenues. They just settle down comfortably and start spouting off the catch phrases of the group. Repeat things often enough and you can start believing them yourself. That’s called the “Big Lie” theory. It works. It can be seen working today in the halls of our government and elsewhere. But what to believe, what to believe!
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+1
Aug 31st, 2009 (1:19 pm)I have been lied to over the years many times by car dealers. They deserve the negativity.