Its hard to believe, but we are actually drawing close to the day the first saleable Volts roll off the production line in November 2010.
Recently the DOE announced a $30 million grant for GM to use to release a test fleet of 500 Chevy Volts to consumers, and 125 to commercial entities. GM has not officially indicated their specific plans about this keeping it rather coy.
I had the chance to briefly ask Volt executive Frank Weber about it.
He said the grant, “means when we do our development activities with charging infrastructure activities and vehicles and provide test data that we will make available to the DOE, they can learn from the vehicle to understand how the vehicles operate.”
Asked specifically if these cars would be distributed prior to November 2010, he said “it is part of rolling it out for Nov 2010.”
Pressing for more specifics as to whether it would before or after November 2010 he said “its (both) coming to November 2010 and after November 2010.”
Understanding that to mean some cars would be released prior to November 2010, and undeterred, I asked specifically “Will consumers get into those cars before Nov 2010?” At that point Weber looked at me wryly, smiled, and said nothing.
You can take that anyway you want, but don’t say I didn’t try.
Some sources are suggesting that the Volt production run for 2010 will be extremely limited anyway. According to Automotive News, “GM plans to build only 200 to 400 cars in November and December 2010, as 2011 models.”
They also report GM will build just 10,000 copies during the entire year of 2011.
It is also clear GM will limit roullout geographically.
So no matter how you cut it, assuming you can afford it, getting an early Volt won’t be easy.
This entry was posted on Thursday, August 27th, 2009 at 6:08 am and is filed under Launch, Production. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+7
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:17 am)…and thus the progamming of unit Weber has clearly been successful
-4
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:18 am)These guys:
http://www.jeffbelzer.com/ou/lakeville-chevrolet-dodge-kia/
were taking Volt orders as of last week or so. No firm quote on the MSRP and they want $10K down and they are charging a $10K premium. Call and ask if they have any slots left.
Also, no firm date.
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:19 am)I never figured on getting an early one anyway, but Lyle I don’t think you have anything to worry about!
-9
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:22 am)Just a few hundred in 2010 and only 10K in 2011…
No surprise there. People who have been paying attention instead of indulging in fantasies have known this for a while.
If you want fuel-efficient transportation, Toyota’s planning to build 500K Priuses this year. It shouldn’t be too hard to get one of those.
While people have been waiting for the Volt, Toyota’s been doing their best to reduce oil consumption.
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:24 am)I would love to be part of the 500.
But it doesn’t look like I will be eligible for getting one of the early models, geographically speaking.
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:26 am)Can you say 2012 or 2013 for me (Seattle)? – This sucks as GM is too slow to get the product to the market giving the consumer more choices from competitors. The Tesla model S will be here sooner than the Volt or the 2 Mode SUV.
+8
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:43 am)I don’t mind if Lyle gets a low serial number Volt.
If statik gets one, that is a different story………………
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:45 am)Rashiid:
Tell me about it. I am in Youngstown, OH – not known for getting anything first………..
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:46 am)I was sure hoping the Lyle’s list would have a tiny bit of pull in getting some of that first year’s production to us………..
Come on Lyle! – Work your magic!!!!
+5
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:49 am)Weber, as God made him, is exactly what GM needed to develop the Volt. I enjoy his pleasure of being in the catbird seat after all his amazing work.
+6
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:49 am)WHAT A DEAL!!!!
Give us $10K. We will get you a care sometime, and for some price. Oh, and by the way, that $10K is for us…….
Thanks, but no thanks!
+7
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:49 am)“..programming of unit Weber…”
—————————
That’s hilarious.
As to the production plans, no surprise. And, when they say 10K in 2011, precedent says that most will come in the latter part of that year. It’s OK, just takes a while when it is really new.
+11
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:57 am)They should give him a pink one! with Robin Egg Blue Dots all over it
-41
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:57 am)(click to show comment)
+7
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:00 am)The Volt will be make a more significant reduction in oil consumption, when comparing a single Prius to a single Volt.
+6
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:13 am)If I were Toyota so would I. The writing is on the wall and they know it. The Volt and Volteck will be the cars to own and Toyota needs to make as much money now to fund their catch up program.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:14 am)I totally agree. I have been watching this site for some time now and decided to start chiming in.
-1
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:14 am)Nothing new here.
BTW, from what i’m told the Flint engine plant tear out is complete. Now to prep & install new equipment. Unfortunately my “inside guy” didn’t get this install contract, so I wont get any details on what’s going on
aahhhh progress.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:14 am)Nor I as I live in/near a small town in NC.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:15 am)but there is no single Volt sale for a single Prius sale. That is Dagwood55′s rather valid point.
I’m not surprised at the small amount of Volts to be produced as Gen 1. We all know GM will be losing money and they are not a charity (for the moment, they take money, not give it)
When gen 2 is finalized and the Volt can at least break even, then production can increase. They might as well have held out till 2012 before releasing the Volt as Gen 2, but any sales of Gen 1 is good publicity.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:17 am)Limited availability…..hmmmm.
I wonder if GM’s security at Milford is really up to snuff.
Security Guy: “Back away from the Volt!”
Tresspasser: “Don’t Tase Me Bro!”
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:25 am)Hey, I just came back from North Carolina.
What small town do you live in? We weren’t too far from Asheville.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:27 am)I perfectly understand GM caution about production volumes and introduction dates.
When you release a new vehicle to the market, as a company what you always fear the most – only after product’s unsuccess – is failure on the field. Ever heard of warranty costs? I think you did.
Imagine 100k Volts sold globally over 2011 (assuming 100k customers available
). What would you do, as GM, if a Volt had a failure in, say, Bangladesh, or Saudi Arabia, or South Africa? (I picked up Countries quite randomly, in fact…). Well, I guess the existing GM car service network would have *some* troubles in reparing a car like the Volt. So, would you leave you dear beloved early adopters, that paid quite a sum to get their first E-REV, with a beautiful but broken Chevy Volt, with no hint when the car could hit the road again? Mmm…
Selling the Volt initially only on the domestic US market and in low volumes would certainly allow for a more controllable situation, that could potentially spare GM a mountain of warranty costs, whatever the warranty will be. Sending a technician on-site in the US will cost much less than sending him out to… wherever else!
Just think of the troubles many standard vehicles normally experience after launch; do you really expect GM to be relaxed when releasing such an innovative (i.e. different) product as the Volt to the market?
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:34 am)koz,
That was a screaaaaam!!!!!! Thanks for waking me up the rest of the way with that one!
I am sure Mr. Weber is also laughing to the point of tears!
Lyle, thanks so much for your exquisite technical tenaciousness.
No-one else has that who is so well-placed for us!!!
GM ought to sub-out contracting for you all during the entire life cycle of Volt your work is so valuable.
(Off to work. Have a great day all!!)
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:03 am)I’m guessing that South Carolina will not be a “priority” rollout area.
Bummer.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:06 am)If only 10k Volts will be product during the entire year of 2011, it looks to me like GM is planning to start mass producing using “gen 2″ technology. By then, the price will be much lower with better technology by that time—–but I don’t like the wait.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:15 am)How does one let GM know that I would volunteer my time and effort to report all effects of the Volt on my commute and be willing to promote with any image of myself, house, etc. as necessary.
Ah, hmmm…..27 miles one way to work, 20amp 110v outlet and reserved space at work….Jacksonville FL……needing new car to replace ’01 Prius 135000 miles….hint…hint…#1984 on the Lyle list…..hint hint hint
Zel
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:16 am)Jim I
Although I know what you mean about statik, he’s been a really valuable member here and probably has a lot of the qualities that would make him a good candidate of maybe a “quality control” vehicle.
GM would be sure to get a LOT of feedback from him (g).
Just a thought,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:19 am)But I’d fly to Calif to pick one up! Just drive it home. (I’m hoping for a NYC release).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:20 am)“Under-promise, over-deliver”.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:21 am)In the spectrum of things, where do all of us fit that are in the original ten thousand that signed up for the Volt when this all started ? Many of us have been with this sight sence its inception,
so I guess we are left at the bus stop.
God Bless America,
Tom
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:24 am)Welcome Byron!
I sure hope Lyle has some magic to work! If you take the article at face value the one date on which no Volts will be released is Nov. 10, 2010 (they will be released before and after that date). I know, I know, “check your meds, Tag” (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:26 am)I think slow roll out also allows the training of techs.
one must remember that the Voltec platform is TOTALLY new..not afield repair tech at ANY GM knows what they need. they’ll train a couple dozen, and they’ll tell 2 friends, and so on and so on, until every dealership has a t least ONE trained teck..which amounts to 5-6000 in North America alone…that is a HUGE training issue.
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:31 am)The problem might be getting it fixed, Tag.
If there is a CA release, and the car dies where you live, what are you going to do when no one is trained in your area? You might be screwed for a period of time.
Expanding on that thought, I suppose this could happen to anyone.
If the release is in CA, and a CA person bought the Volt and took it on a cross country trip, they would be as screwed as you would be.
I wonder if GM will set up some rules for the early adopters.
No driving out of service area, or something like that.
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:33 am)kdawg,
Good to know about the tear-out. Sorry your buddy missed out. Without statik’s data mining it’s tough to know the specifics (other than from Lyle).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-8
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:35 am)It’s quite likely that we won’t here any of the real world performance information on the volt that would at least allow for the possibility of product viability until 2011:
Real world AER city
Real world AER Hwy
Real world mpg in CS mode city
Real world mpg in CS mode Hwy
Any issues with power fade
Then, the really big viability issue comes up . .. cost.
GM can likely stretch this limited production vehicle out to 2014 or 2015 before it becomes completely obvious whether the Volt can ever compete for volume sales (i.e. at least below $30,000).
!Catbird seat, indeed!
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:35 am)Exp_eng,
I’m right behind you bro (lol) Maybe if everyone in the waiting list rushed the place, all wearing our Volt T-shirts…. (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:38 am)joe,
I don’t like to wait either, but it will be over 3 YEARS we’ve been waiting. AS I type that, another year doesn’t seem tooooo bad (yes it does, I’m lying).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:44 am)Rashiid,
I agree with the second premise, but I don’t know how GM could do other than “suggest” staying in an area. It could be like your cell phone going “outside service area” = costs more. Maybe they’d tow you to the nearest GM dealer who has received training? Another reason to limit the roll-out numbers. SIGH.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:46 am)#974 on the list… Really enjoying my 2010 Fusion Hybrid…Still waiting for my Volt but don’t expect it to land in Cnetral Alberta Canada til 2013 or later… And I will be keeping the Fusion as it seats 5.. is a bigger car and right now is averaging 52 MPG (Canadian)..
GM… I could do comparison testing for you as I already have a hybrid .
What do ya say?
All types of climate here… I drive 50 – 250 KMs every day . All types of roads…
The perfect choice for the rollout testers..
Call me…
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:51 am)GM will send a technician out to where you are, I think, at great expense. It will be a learning opportunity at the local dealership and your Volt will be disassembled and put together again several times
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:51 am)I drive past the proving grounds in Milford every day. That should put me at the top of the list. Right? ;>)
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:54 am)Toyota will follow soon. they still have several years before the Volt even begins to make a dent in their sales. 500k vs 10k in 2011 (projected)… hmmm, not to mention the price difference.
As much as i want the Volt myself, it is obvious 40k vs 22k is a fair difference in price. yes the Volt is high tech, uses less/no fuel, but what can people afford? If the volt can come down in price, so can the Prius.
Personal, I’ll be buying a Volt as soon as it hits Australian streets, but I can’t ignore the fact that before the Volt is a real threat to Toyota, Toyota will already have had 5+ years to catch-up (if they are not doing so already). The Volt will be first, but the quantities are so low, it won’t make a difference to Toyota for some time to come – provided Toyota do nothing about it.
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:54 am)Herm,
As long as I get to watch, I’m good with that. Sick, sick, sick (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:55 am)Real world AER city
Real world AER Hwy
Real world mpg in CS mode city
Real world mpg in CS mode Hwy
Any issues with power fade
………………………
The funny thing is that every single driver will get different numbers for all that stuff that you are interested in.. the only way for YOU to find out what you would get would be to buy one. All those numbers are driver dependent.
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:56 am)Starcast,
Yep, you should. Got a room to rent? If I set up residence now….
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-3
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:59 am)What catch-up program? Toyota’s in the lead. Their car can be modified into a PHEV whenever they like the price of a large battery. All the development is done. They’ve also got regular EVs in the works and let’s not forget who’s the leader in EVs in the US today: Toyota. There’s still about 400 Rav4-EVs on the road today. That’s about as much as GM’s 2010 Volt production.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:00 am)And they thought the EV-1 fanatics were high-maintenance!
+18
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:01 am)Koz, your hunch about “unit Weber” is actually very close to reality. Although Frank may not know exactly why he is so “driven”, he should know that in physics a Weber is a unit of magnetic flux, and that a change in flux of one Weber per second will induce an electromotive force of one Volt!* How’s that for a coincidence?
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weber_(unit)
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:03 am)Rashild,
I used to live in Asheville. Beautiful country there. Can’t wait to get back some day and buy plenty of land east of town in Black Mountain, NC.
Hopefully you were on vacation.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:04 am)Realistically, it will be another 3 YEARS after Nov 2010 before most of us have a shot … if GM can last that long against a flood of Volt misinformation, and bad feelings over “Government Motors.”
+4
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:05 am)GM should slam down HARD on this sort of crap.
I’m talking about pulling their franchise and no second chances hard.
This Jeff Belzer is a thief if this is true.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:07 am)Hmmmm, Independence Day 2010 is “before Nov 2010″……
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:07 am)Lyle, you are becoming the 60-minutes of blogging! Great job
With 50k of us on ‘the list’ and only 500 gov’t sponsored Volts, odds aren’t looking good. It is likely that these 500 are off the top of the production run which will kill our odds even more.
I have been lucky before though…
Give me a VIN to post with!
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:07 am)GM should get the capacity of 100000 units per quarter capacity by 2012 and that would make the company more competitive.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:08 am)Get real, Toyota isn’t interested in reducing oil consumption anymore than any other big business. They are only interested in making money and unlike GM, they saw the attraction that the Prius was going do for their image and sales. As Bob L. has already said, even if a buyer didn’t purchase a Prius, for a lot of people the Prius brought them onto Toyota’s lot and a sale was made anyway. The only reason that Toyota is now considering producing other types of hybrids is again for the money. They see how much attention GM is creating with the Volt and want in on it. What big business wouldn’t?
As for only producing 10K Volt’s in 2011, GM had better get on the ball. By the time they fully ramp up, others will certainly be in the game.
My only chance is that I’m in Dallas and we may see a few Volt’s arrive here.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:09 am)Nice try baiting Statik but apparently he did not take it, for sure you would have thought that would have got his gord. Why do we do it Statik? Because we miss you! We will keep trying, you have an Achilles heel some where.
+4
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:09 am)Just do the test cycles/formula for 2008 epa standards. You know, like they do here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
that’s real world enough.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:10 am)This is true for the Plug-In Prius; but that won’t be a Volt. It won’t be all-electric at every speed; and it must use gasoline.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:10 am)# 15 – Ray
How in the world did you get a Fusion Hybrid ? My dealer called me and they were lucky enough in a dealer drawing to have one shipped to them. It was sold before it was unloaded from the carrier.
Glad to hear you like it, I have an Escape and will be trading it for the 2010 Hybrid Escape.
Tom
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:10 am)Congratulations Lyle on your journalistic efforts! Seems like being a journalist can sometimes be a frustrating occupation. In this case I’m not sure he or anyone else at GM knows for sure what the schedule will be. There are probably some unknowns that need to be worked out. But thanks for trying!
Last November GM was aggressive about the number of Volts it would produce but it has walked backed from that number, going from 60K in 2011 to 10K. In his defense, Fritz Henderson has been saying for a while that he wants to see 12K Volts on the road by 2012, so this is not exactly new.
We have, however, waited ten years since the EV1 so another year or two shouldn’t be that big of a deal. Plus the smart money would be on Gen II. At these very modest production levels GM will not exhaust its 250K allotment for the $7.5K rebate until after Gen II arrives, so those who wait should have a window to get a less expensive car and still get the rebate. Definitely a better deal. As an added bonus they’ll doubtless get a car informed by the learnings from Gen I.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:13 am)Jackson,
You KNOW you lost me at the word “realistically” (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:17 am)They had 3 on the lot where I purchased mine… and within a 100 KM (60 Mile) radius… there were 12 Fusion Hybrids on the Dealer lots.
I went on line at Ford.ca and “built” my Fusion… then used their dealership network to find out which dealer had it..
As it turned out… it was only a 15 minute drive from my house..
-3
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:18 am)It doesn’t matter if it uses some gasoline. It uses a lot less than a comparable midsize car, a PHEV Prius will use even less and the Prius base price is a LOT less.
And Toyota makes money on them. This gives them the funding for any new products they care to develop.
-7
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:22 am)Get real. Lutz is addicted to the heroin of a halo effect. That’s all he sees. That’s all he ever builds and that’s how he sees the Volt, so it WILL be a halo car and nothing more.
Toyota sold 19K Priuses last month. The car gets sold to people who want comfortable, affordable transportation and are willing to pay a small (very small) premium for outstanding fuel economy. That’s not some halo car, that’s a mainstream car. GM didn’t sell that many Malibus and a large chunk of the Malibus they did sell probably went to fleets.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:25 am)I think this is part of the reason that Nissan is going to gain the competitive edge with the Leaf. By being able to push out a larger number, sooner, and at a cheaper price, they will most likely take the leader position in EV technology for the general public. GM will be forced into a catch up roll due to this excruticatingly slow development and rollout period.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:27 am)Its no suprise that car dealers rank as the number 1 hated profession in most surveys. With stunts like this.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:32 am)That’s more than a little freaky.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:32 am)That’s just the right amount of mean to be really funny!
/we pick on those we like statik… really!
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:35 am)I hate to say it but……
For the price and the driving I do, GM can “Leaf” me alone…
And I don’t even like Nissans however, looks like that’s what I’ll be tooling around in for a while.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:36 am)Sadly you guys have a point.
Honestly I can’t stop thinking about that 57 mpg BMW 320d…
Also sadly they haven’t announced any plans to bring that to Canada either.
The Prius is just too homely to consider and the Jetta has serious reliablity issues. I grew up in a Chevy family so I have ‘some’ reservations about the Fusion (but will look at it anyway).
What’s a consumer to do?
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:36 am)All the talk about GM understandably wants to roll it out slow and cautious. And true if their product is the best one and the best ‘value’ they will beomce the leader.
But this is still a race. I really want to buy American, but if I have to settle for buying American Fuel (electricity instead of Foreign Oil) then I will.
I will buy the first car out there where my fuel savings over first 100,000 miles justifies the purchase.
I’d prefer an SUV.
I expect to drive 20,000 miles a year electric, even if I have to charge at work.
My math is I expect to save $4 (or more) per gallon of gas replaced. So basically I’m willing to pay up to $12,000 premium for a car I can drive 20,000 electric miles per year.
And the way GM is dragging their feet, it might be a RAV4 (Toyota could probably mass produce that by 2012 if they wanted too).
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:37 am)Don, I’m not a patient person but what you say about 250K allotment of $7.5K and waiting for Gen II sure makes a lot of sense. Even more since I’ve managed to reduce my annual mileage to 4000 ish miles by telecommuting more.
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:39 am)You have a good point there – whether you were trying to make it or not. If GM crushes THIS one, they’re up sh** creek. Too many people want it to become reality this time.
-1
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:40 am)Did anybody say that making money is easy! well maybe so with the government providing it. Another big grant of 30 million dollars to get some vehicles out to the public so they can actually see them. Um! easy money ~ if we can just get the public to believe that this is really, really hard to get these public paid vehicles out!
Possible it would help getting them out in “Early” 2010 or was it “Early Volts” out in 2010 if we could just give some big bonuses. that would help get them out, wouldn’t it?
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:42 am)Maybe, but that’s not why you were a faithful visitor here, anyway.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:45 am)So it is!
I personally will give you 100% of the credit if it happens!
(That and $3.50 will get you a latte’ at Starbucks!)
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:47 am)If GM keeps production volume too low for too long they risk the halo effect that the Volt gives turning into a noose. Public perception:
Now: GM makes gas guzzlers.
Desired with Volt: GM makes cool efficient vehicles.
With low production Volt: GM is conspiring not to sell efficient vehicles.
Of course competitors like Nissan may not get the same bad perception because much of the public likes to beat up on GM.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:50 am)GM has the capability of producing many more Volts in 2011: see this link:
http://www.4wheelsnews.com/chevrolet-volt-production-may-reach-70000-units-per-year-by-2011/
We don’t know what will happen in 2011.
A world crisis could result in Gasoline prices souring above what we saw last year. Also, the demand for the Volt may be higher than currently predicted even without of serious world conflict going out of control. We can all hope that demand will result in GM increasing its planned production.
I am hopeful that GM is ready for just such high demand (without the world crisis).
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:51 am)Bruce, it’s ONLY an “excruticatingly slow development and rollout period” because for, maybe the first time ever, we get to WATCH as the process happens.
A new platform takes years to get right, just usually you don’t see anything except a few grainy ‘spy photos’ until they roll it out at the auto show.
+7
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:51 am)2010 will be the first year for this type of car, ever. One would have to compare to the first year of the original Honda Insight that started it all. How long did Toyo put out the Prius before it became profitable?
Yes, the Prius has a role to play in saving gas. However, by positively influencing CARB numbers, each Prius sale allows a Tundra or giant Toyo SUV to be sold. Talk about a halo.
If you were really concerned about saving gas, you would welcome any further advancement of automotive electrification, even in it’s first tentative offering. In fact, you come off more like yet another Toyo fanboy, for whom the whole universe is irreversibly Prius-flavored. You won’t shut the site down. Go somewhere else.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:52 am)That’s what I been talking about for a while. The ridiculous dealer mark up. Maybe E Bay isn’t that bad an idea
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:56 am)If you’re a struggling company, do you leave those $’s on the table?
Lots of interesting factors come into play. If you just need to survive now, then maximize today’s revenue. If not, then maximize the long-run revenue. A great tool for the first case is an auction–say, Ebay (or Stubhub for tickets). For the second case, the existing dealer network because that is more relationship-based, and the dealer would expect a quid pro quo from the customer, such as loyalty on the next car sale, for selling the Volt at a discount.
IMO, it makes a lot of sense to at least initially sell the Volt to the most loyal customers, such as those who also buy a high-margin SUV/truck at the same time as the Volt purchase. 2 birds at one time–survive now and later.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:57 am)I thought that bait was sure to work.
If offered Pink/Robin Egg Blue, Statik would gladly take it and get it in to the shop the same day to get it repainted in jet black.
Ever heard of getting your car “murdered out”?
http://www.murderedoutrides.com/album.php?albumid=69&pictureid=784
If I ever see a Volt looking like that, I’ll know who it is
+5
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:57 am)“That’s more than a little
freakygeeky.”Fixed that for you.
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:58 am)Well said Jackson.
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:58 am)Hydrogen!
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:59 am)Muddy,
Well thanks! You’re warming the old cockles (as in cockles of my heart). I STILL think that the symbolism is well worth at least a limited release AND it’s less than a year away!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:00 am)It all comes down to GM’s internal costs to build a Volt.
If they can cost reduce enough to at least break even (of course profit is definately better!) then spooling up production will make a lot of sence.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:02 am)Absolutely true!
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:03 am)You are NOT wrong there!
I’m sure Dan will chime in on this as well!
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:04 am)There we go. In the minds of every carmaker, California = Hybrid sales.
When is anyone (other than the Japanese car makers) going to give the rest of us a chance? (Take note, GM & Ford: I see tons of Priuses around here).
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:08 am)I look for the first Volt to be sold at the Barrett-Jackson auto auction this January in Scottsdale AZ. If you watch that auction (live on Speed channel the 2nd or 3 week in January) you will see the next year GM models. (as well as some Ford and Chrysler stuff but GM is a big sponsor of the auction) 2 years ago they sold the 1st new ZR1 for a Million. Last year they sold the 1st new Camaro for over $600,000. I wonder if the first Volt will bring that kind of money? (proceeds of those sales want to charity by the way)
Note: the person that buys cars at that auction gets the 0001 serial number when the production starts up. They don’t get to drive the car home that day.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:09 am)Let the Leaves come. The sooner they get here, the more real drivers will experience the joys of range anxiety. Autumn will not be far behind.
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:10 am)Gets a little less freaky when you realize Weber is the 6th most common German surname.
Koz made a funny, . . that’s all. No reason for Volt enthusiasts to get all “transcendentally defensive”.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:13 am)Yup. I was on vacation. A surprise vacation actually.
I had no idea where I was going until I got there.
It was a gift from my wife for our 16th wedding anniversary.
It was beautiful down there.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:15 am)V=IR
LOL, they are probably thinking “Lord, here we go again!”
There is no way they’d repeat that blunder (and survive).
It ain’t going to happen.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:18 am)No Problem Tag. No kids at home anymore so lot’s of extra room.
Only room for 1 Volt in the garage. My wife will never move her Z28 outside.
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:20 am)“the Jetta has serious reliablity issues”
Sigh. So true. If VW could do only two things: fix the reliability issues, and bring the good stuff here, they would take over the world. Sigh.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:22 am)Tom,
It ain’t necessarily so. Even if Lyle gets one (as he should), the site got it from the concept to the actual wheels on the road! The fact that we were all a part of that may be historic (in the long term).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:22 am)My guess is they will take soooo long that other car company’s will beat them again.
I hope not, but that’s my expectation.
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:27 am)Starcast,
I’ll pay to have 2 220′s right outside the garage (or on your lawn). Look forward to meeting your wife (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:31 am)They can’t. They had one chance to pull franchises with the bankruptcy. But that’s it.
A lot more dealers will be doing this with their volt allocations. Which is why it would be pointless for GM to lower the initial MSRP. At least IMHO.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:34 am)I never expected to get an early version of the Volt unless GM was kind enough to give me one to test for them. I would be most happy to do that. I would even pay something for the privilege of doing it. How much is up in the air. Just like GM’s plan to release the Volt to the public for purchase.
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:38 am)From the link:
Simulated Distance 11 mi. 10.3 mi. 8 mi. 3.6 mi. 11 mi.
Simple, no gas on all tests done separately. Even if you run the number of repeat tests the some cycles require, the MPG is still going to be infinite or a HUGE number. Those tests were not developed with an EREV in mind.
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:41 am)If that isGM’s plan (to produce most of the 2011 production of 10,000 units late in 2011 or only produce a few hundred for the 2011 model) they are being quite insincere with their following on this site. We all have been led to believe GM would start production in time for a November 2010 release to the public for purchase with production increasing during 2011 so that more units would be produced for the 2012 model year. So, what is the game plan now, GM? Does this throw into question the volume of production as we were led to believe it would be?
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:44 am)Now that is information well worth knowing. Thanks, Nasaman. I am sure Mr. Weber will find it interesting as well as entertaining.
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:52 am)January 18 – 24th by the way. The big $ auctions run on the night of the 23rd.
Great to watch if you are a car person. You see one of a kind, pre-production, rare and prototypes sell. Carol Shelby’s personal Cobra sold for like $5 million 2 years ago.
+4
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:55 am)Good to hear from you Laura!
I have to disagree on this point though, why should thieves be protected?
Do they have some sort of car dealer tenure so they get paid even if they do a terrible job? (I STILL get mad thinking about the incompetent prof’s at the university that will STILL be there because they are unemployable anywhere else.)
There is nothing stopping GM from drawing the line, the price is set, stick to the pricing structure or you will no longer be a dealer.
The new GM NEEDS to have credibility with the customer, bad dealers are the face of the company and they look like thieves to most customers.
The ONLY way this can be fixed is by setting level pricing across the country and enforcing it.
I know people who will NEVER give GM another chance because they were screwed over by a bad dealer.
This is a really big problem.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:59 am)The problem is that people will remember that cash grab, and will go somewhere else the next time hoping that by some miracle they ‘might’ find a good dealer.
That other dealer will likely sell another brand.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:05 am)It gets here when it gets here. In the meantime, it’s a perfect excuse for me to keep driving our old cars, and not drop a bunch of money on new ones. How that benefits GM, I can’t quite figure out, but it works for me.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:16 am)Zel:
If you go back and look at old posts, we have been trying that approach for years……
I don’t think it is working.
But hope springs eternal!
-11
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:18 am)(click to show comment)
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:20 am)This is exactly the kind of dealer rip-off we have discussed in the past to expect with the Volt. I will not ever purchase a Volt or any other vehicle under that type of circumstance. I will walk or ride a bicycle first. Dealers like this should be shunned. Toyota dealers are doing the same kind of premiums for 2010 Prius purchases. Maybe not $10,000, but still it is the same type of rip-off with just a different amount of money.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:28 am)Are you skipping troll school today?
-1
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:28 am)In fact, do the math…
A midsize car gets about 25mpg, combined.
A Prius gets about 50mpg.
A Volt may get in the neighborhood of 150mpg, effectively (I ran the numbers and, if I were to buy a Volt, I’d get about 70mpg)
A midsize car driven 15K miles per year uses about 600 gallons of gas.
A Prius driven 15K miles per year uses about 300 gallons of gas.
A Volt, if and when it reaches the market, may use about 100 gallons of gas per year.
The Prius saves 300 gallons for every midsize car it displaces in the market.
The Volt will save 500 gallons for every midsize car it displaces in the market (of course, it is just a 4-seat car but let’s pretend it’s midsize).
The Prius effect is the volume of Priuses (500K) tiimes the savings (300 gallons) or 150 million gallons of gas NOT consumed.
The Volt effect is the volume of Volts (10K) times the savings (500 gallons) or 5 million gallons of gas NOT consumed.
Clearly, the Prius has a much greater effect. Considering that Toyota had already sold a million as of last year, it will take the better part of a decade for the Volt to catch up.
And Toyota would have to cooperate by standing still. Fat chance of that.
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:28 am)Somehow I don’t think that would bother Statik that much. A quick paint job and he would be well satisfied. If, and this may be a big if, Statik is ever satisfied about anything. Well, I am sure somethings do satisfy him. But he does deserve to get a Volt – right after I get mine.
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:29 am)Customers will only walk if the product is a commodity. Honda dealers were charging premiums for decades, because of excellent product–product is the key. GM has to keep the hits rolling.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:31 am)I have to completely agree with you on that, Tag. Statik would absolutely give GM all the feedback they could stand. But valid criticism would be good for GM, if they were willing to really listen. And I believe GM has been paying a lot more attention to what our Statik says than what you and I have been saying. Rightly so, too.
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:35 am)Hydrogen has worked in the past, but I believe Statik has really taken his pledge to stay off the board very seriously. Much more serious than my decision to lay off for awhile. I did stay off commenting for a week although I continued to read the posts and comments. I think it will take a lot more than hydrogen to get his “goat” and make him “cough-up” a comment. But, yes, we do miss him.
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:36 am)Don’t kid yourself, just as there is a huge market for EREV, there is also a huge market for BEVs. I’m all for both technologies (I’m not sold on either one yet). When used in the context of grocery getter/errard runner/ commuter a BEV will fit well with a large number of the population. Remember GMs own numbers say most of the population drives 40 miles or less each day. If you have a 120 mile BEV that is no problem.
-2
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:39 am)It’s an evolution, not a revolution. GM would like to pretend it isn’t so but it’s the truth AND that’s EXACTLY how consumers will see it.
Battery plus gas engine = Prius or close enough to make no difference. That’s the advantage of being the leader and GM has graciously allowed Toyota a 12 year head start in controlling the mind of the market.
Prius initial full year production was somewhere in the neighborhood of 30K vehicles. And that’s about 12 years ago when the idea of a “traction battery” in a car was completely unfamiliar.
Further, Toyota set up internet ordering when the car came to the US. If you wanted one, you signed up and they sent it your way. No geographical rollout malarkey.
By the way, I happened to mention the Volt 230mpg claim to a couple of people who are not terribly into cars and their reaction was “That’s b*llsh*t, what sort of bogus math is GM using now?” They are going to see the Volt as EXACTLY like a Prius.
As for reducing oil consumption, I think it’s extremely important and very urgent, for a variety of reasons, which is why I think 10K units of Volts not due out until 2011 is laughably pathetic. The Prius makes a difference TODAY.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:40 am)Forget markup you’d have to be a total moron to pay that. I won’t even pay MSRP, as we all know that is a joke as well. I probably won’t be able to own a Volt for a while. But I’m ok with that in exchange for not getting screwed by greedy dealers.
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:44 am)Earlier this year Toyota was projecting a price of over $40,000 for a plug-in Prius. If that holds up, I am not sure there will be a difference between it and the Volt except the Volt will be superior in performance, looks and over-all savings of money and fuel. Anyone who thinks Toyota is going to sell a plug-in Prius for the same price as a regular Prius has a few screws loose in their head. Toyota knows the demand will be high for that type of vehicle by 2012 (when they projected public sales would commence) and they intend to maximize profit from the demand. Nothing new there.
+4
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:44 am)Sorry Tag, but what “qualities” are those? And a LOT of feedback, may not really be quality feedback.
IMHO, there are a lot of more qualified hardware/software types that have been more supportive of this entire project that would make much better test candidates than a quasi financial person.
The feedback that I hope GM is looking for should be more along the lines of:
Here is a problem I have identified. I can consistantly reproduce it under these circumstances. Here is what I have done to try to work around the problem, or to minimize it. When do you need to have the car in the shop to analyze/update/repair it?
Not just: It has to be black, I hate Bob Lutz and his tie, and GM has terrible accountants.
Sorry, but that is how I see it. These test vehicles are supposed to be exactly that, test vehicles. To work out the last few bugs that can only be done by getting vehicles out on the road, and to people that are “willing to work with GM” to make them right before they go into full production.
JMHO
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:46 am)What you should worry about, Dagwood, is tomorrow.
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:49 am)You guys should start a website just like the “www.camaro5.com” site where they posted the names of dealers who marked up Camaros $5000 or more as “gougers” (spelling?)…
I can tell you that I have not been able to get confirmation yet if our dealership will even get one VOLT. And as far as markups go, with the potential of such HUGE negative press about this vehicle, I doubt there will be any here. I am recommending against it.
Marking up a sports car designed to BURN plenty of gas is one thing, but marking up one promoted to SAVE $$$ at the pump would be marketing suicide for a dealer.
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:50 am)I spent the weekend after Thanksgiving in Black Mountain, NC in 1997. I loved the place. Wonderful scenery with the mountains surrounding the town. Would love to go back some day.
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:53 am)GM killed the public rail system.
That alone means they have PLENTY of karma to burn off already.
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:54 am)And the way to enforce a no price gouging policy is to have an internet site that list dealers in your area who are gouging and those who are not. GM could even advertise this web site in all Volt advertisements.
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:55 am)The Pac NW has a higher percentage of Priuses on the road than California.
They need to send the Volt here
-8
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:56 am)This car is nothing but a big green smokescreen. When it all comes down to it it’s a petroleum burning dirt bucket. When the battery is dead on a long haul then up a steep grade on the mountain highways your 43K car turns into a gokart.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:56 am)I am sure there will be a healthy initial market for the first practical highway-speed BEV that hits the market (at present, that appears to be the Leaf; but even this could change).
However, IMHO the technology and infrastructure isn’t yet ready to be the sole source of power for a first, or even a second car. In addition to base range (under ideal conditions), there’s the effect of high and low temperatures to consider. The BEV’s range-anxiety could be greatly alleviated by a public charging infrastructure, but a universal one won’t exist for a decade.
The EREV, with at-home and at-business plugs + thousands of existing gas stations = today. The BEV, with the expense and temperature sensitivity of batteries + no public charging = tomorrow (at best).
Nothing will impress these realities upon actual consumers more effectively than a demonstration. Let the Leaf come (and may the Volt be ready).
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:59 am)Off Topic:
….now electric planes
http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/08/24/the-future-of-airplanes-electricity/?source=yahoo_quote
Powered by lithium polymer batteries, weighing close to a thousand pounds, and sipping about $2.50 worth of electricity per hour of flight, the E430 has completed more than 20 hours in test runs during the last couple months, including one in Camarillo, CA, (at the base of the Conejo Grade).
=D~
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:59 am)I SAY HYDROGEN FUEL CELL FEEDING AN EESTOR AND DRIVING IN STATIK’S NEIGHBORHOOD!!
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:00 pm)I would like to point out that the 2012 Camaro Convertible is an excellent alternative to the VOLT and will be about the same price (if we’re lucky).
As the song says:
You can’t always get what you want—
But if you try, try, try, sometimes—
You get what you need.
You guys send me an email if you give up on the VOLT.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:01 pm)As someone who’s built his own lead sled and drove it for a few years, that’s point is spot on.
I got zinged last time I was critical of BEV folks here because I wasn’t nice… but they do annoy me when they come here and bash the EREV.
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:03 pm)All this discussion about the availability of the first true electric car substitute without any restrictions is both mildly depressing and truly exhilarating at the same time
Depressing for the early true-believers to realize that we will have to wait in line for their game-changing Volts. But nonetheless, the tide is inexorable and they are coming.
Exhilarating for all to realize that:
a) the national nightmare of being blackmailed for 40 years is ending, by some unsavory Arabs and Communist Commissars, fortunate enough either to have petroleum in quantity below their sands, or dictators of countries that they have managed to subjugate and now exploit.
b) The costs for waging wars to guarantees supplies, that prevents a Worldwide economic collapse will end.
c) For the true environmentalists, it confirms that Mankind’s brain is not a terminal disease, despite the wailings and prophecies of the modern contrived return of Druidism.
d) Even the crack-headed AGW believers who thinks we have something to fear with oxidized carbon in a few hundred years, and their projections are shown to be as crack-headed as their “Profits” of Doom.
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:05 pm)Rashiid
I live about 150 miles east of Asheville, in Salisbury.
I love Asheville is my favorite city in NC. Any chance you visited Biltmore House?
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:06 pm)All I really want is a usable EREV. GM looks to be in the lead, so I’m a fanboy of getting the Volt out.
But the reality is that I do hate GM…
National City Lines (yep, GM destroyed mass transit rail all over the company)
Killing the EV1
Gubment motors. Us taxpayers have poured more public money into GM that Toyota’s peak market cap!
If someone else beats GM to a mass produced EREV, I’m all the happier.
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:06 pm)Now yer talkin’!
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:12 pm)I personally refuse to step into a Honda dealer, but I see your point.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:14 pm)You have to admit, GM has been doing the EXACT opposite up to this point.
The price, appearance, range, electric range, and availability of the Volt have all required backtracking. Soon they will do the same for the ICE MPG. Eventually they will need to apologize for the 230 MPG number (as well they should for the way they presented it).
This has been a habit of GM for a long time now. GM hybrid buses, GM hybrid trucks/cars, the Cobalt and now the Cruze. None of them have/will live up to the hype, and they weren’t even in commercials three/four years in advance of their release. There is no real reason to believe that this trend is going to magically reverse, especially in a car such as the Volt which has had more unkowns and more PR than any other GM model I can think of.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:14 pm)From N Riley to “old man”
If that last one doesn’t draw him out, I don’t know what will! I know he’d travel for Max Bob’s pink tie, but a Volt to match? I don’t think so. YELLING about a hydrogen driven EStor really should have done it. SIGH.
HYDROGEN TO INFINITY!
I can picture static reading this and his wife asking:
“Honey, why are you singing LALALALALA with your fingers in your ears?”
Maybe if Lyle had the keys (or fob) to a second IVER and dangled them, he’d “bite”.
I still think he’d be a great preproduction tester including the ones mentioned by Jim I above (ahem, as do I). We always need balance. JMO
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:15 pm)The training actually began about 3 years ago actually. A series of new electrical and electronics courses from Raytheon, then numerous classes on the BAS and 2-Mode hybrids. The classes on the 2-modes really have a lot of application to the Volt. There is really only small differences in the hardware used and just slightly higher source voltage levels (360V vs. 288V) but from a safety and process perspective very similar. So there is already at least one possibly two trained “2-mode” technicians in most Chevy dealerships. (not all Chevy dealers are “2-mode” dealers but that might change)
What they really lack is just plain old experience, as the 2-modes haven’t had a lot of issues and their numbers are not all that significant as of yet (e.g.. it appears only around 1000 GM hybrids were sold in July) But sales of them ARE increasing, especially in the lower cost pick-ups. The 2-mode pickup is now less than $4000 more than a comparably equipped Silverado XFE. It is expected that training on the Volt will begin in the Q:1 2010 in the form of CBTs from Raytheon, but actual “hand’s on” training probably wont commence until some of the first early production units roll off the line sometime in Q:3 or even Q:4 of 2010.
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:16 pm)@Mitch
The training actually began about 3 years ago actually. A series of new electrical and electronics courses from Raytheon, then numerous classes on the BAS and 2-Mode hybrids. The classes on the 2-modes really have a lot of application to the Volt. There is really only small differences in the hardware used and just slightly higher source voltage levels (360V vs. 288V) but from a safety and process perspective very similar. So there is already at least one possibly two trained “2-mode” technicians in most Chevy dealerships. (not all Chevy dealers are “2-mode” dealers but that might change)
What they really lack is just plain old experience, as the 2-modes haven’t had a lot of issues and their numbers are not all that significant as of yet (e.g.. it appears only around 1000 GM hybrids were sold in July) But sales of them ARE increasing, especially in the lower cost pick-ups. The 2-mode pickup is now less than $4000 more than a comparably equipped Silverado XFE. It is expected that training on the Volt will begin in the Q:1 2010 in the form of CBTs from Raytheon, but actual “hand’s on” training probably wont commence until some of the first early production units roll off the line sometime in Q:3 or even Q:4 of 2010.
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:16 pm)My boss likes to watch that auction. I tuned in for the last one, and was bored to tears. Guess I’m not a “car guy.”
Oh, by the way, he was extremely vocal and negative when the initial show car Volt was changed for the production-intent design. This is a small sample, but I bet that most watchers of this auction will fall into that camp. This makes me wonder if GM will really sell the first Volt there.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:17 pm)XIAO
There is no plugin Prius for sale in NA (yet) either.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-10
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:19 pm)(click to show comment)
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:19 pm)Those who follow will greatly benefit from GM’s pioneering. The manufacturing base for large-format Li/Ion cells will have already ramped up (lowering costs), the paradigm will have already been publicly demonstrated (saving advertising dollars), they can concentrate on whatever vehicle class GM hasn’t Voltec-ized yet, etc.
We just recently heard that Honda has decided to enter the BEV fray, and we speculated that this was their plan all along; with their current hybrid program serving as something of a smoke-screen (in addition to being a legitimate attempt at hybrid sales). It seems to me that Honda is ideally placed to build a real EREV, and that the BEV story is in fact a cover for this (unless the LEAF manages to take off and save Nissan’s corporate skin, in which case we’ll see the Honda BEV arrive on these shores at the speed of light).
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:20 pm)GXT
STATIK YOU’RE BACK!
Yay!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:21 pm)I like go carts!
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:23 pm)Don’t make us angry. You won’t like us when we’re angry.
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:23 pm)Since GM is now own “by the people, for the people”, crushing these cars is out of the question
I don’t think they will do that mistake again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:23 pm)Great suggestion. A gas guzzeling retro sports car is a great substitute for an electric sedan. (rolls eyes)
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:24 pm)GXT,
I think that you mean transparency as opposed to PR. If they hadn’t done so, they’d be starting the trek to educate people NOW. Which approach do you think is better?
That it’s hard to predict UNKNOWNS isn’t news and I’ll bet you an adult beverage that they won’t recant the 230 number.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:25 pm)“Astroturfing”
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:26 pm)A web site is better than nothing, but removing them from the new car dealer ranks is better.
If they are creepy “used car salesmen” then that’s all they should be.
The fact that is a ‘saying’ should be enough!
Get tough GM, dump the crap dealers.
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:26 pm)Dang, beat me to it. Now what am I going to do with the worlds’ longest extension cord?!
Actually, how about a high-wing monoplane (haven’t followed your link yet), with the upper surface covered with solar cells? You know, solar powered flight has already been demonstrated.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:26 pm)It would seem to give a whole new dimension to “range anxiety”, LOL.
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:28 pm)No old man. No Biltmore. We stayed in Bryson City, so we were only in Asheville for the airport. Next time though.
-1
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:31 pm)By 2012 this country could be bankrupt; China will buy everything for a song; we become a ‘Communistic State’ and everyone gets a VOLT (or a Camaro) if you learn to speak Chinese! Really. It could happen. Really. Maybe.
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:33 pm)I am seeing a few more new Camaros around town the last few days. Do they look remarkably like the “concept” Volt, or is it just my imagination?
It looks like the first to die will be my 2000 S-10, just about to turn over 230K miles. The Colorado is just too big, and gets even worse mileage thatn the S-10. So I’m thinking small car. I can’t remember, will the Cruze come in a hatchback? Do you have any update on when it will be available?
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:33 pm)The first 500 will likely go where testing is needed for the Volt. That could be
a) Texas or Arizona for extremely high temperatures
b) NY or Chicago for various seasons – Cold, rain, frequent showers, etc.
c) A few selected places in Canada because it’s much colder and they might need to test how the battery wears out (hopefully not) in these conditions.
I’m in Montreal, and the temperature is unforgiving, the roads generally bad (potholes and all) and electricity is abundant. I’m used to plug my car in the winter.
I guess I am a good candidate for extreme testing of the Volt
)
P.S. I forgot California but I’m sure they will be in for the test. It’s a given I believe.
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:34 pm)Well, I was right there with you up to d). Wait for it.
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:38 pm)At a cheaper price ? Let’s wait and see…
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:39 pm)NERDSHOE!!!
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:39 pm)As somebody said yesterday, go ahead and don’t buy it. It just means more for those of us who can’t wait to get one.
BTW, if you plug it in, the electricity keeps the battery warm. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that, once you start driving, the chemical reaction(s) in the battery mean that it warms itself.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (12:45 pm)It will sure beat the block-of-ice BEV battery that won’t power a flashlight in the deep cold. How much gas do you need to burn to make a little heat? Would you rather put an oil heater in an electric car? With the Volt, you get electricity along with your heat. In alternative energy circles, we call this “co-generation.”
In internet circles you are what we call “a troll.”
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:01 pm)Dagwood55,
You have hit on the big issue for the marketers at GM.
How do you educate the public (without insulting them) about the paradym changing nature of the Volt, the worlds first practical every day useable electric car. The Prius although a real engineering marvel is still a gas car with electric assist, and little 35 mph side street only ‘golfcarts’ just don’t count.
The Leaf does show some promise, but even then it’s still a city car.
The Volt can do all the city car stuff full electric but can take me anywhere I need to go without me having two car payments.
The emini doesn’t count either because it’s a captured fleet which must be returned after one year.
I do not ‘hate’ the Prius (except for the looks) but I see how the Volt changes the game.
-4
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:04 pm)Quibble, evade, ….. whatever.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:12 pm)“Kind of funny using ice to warm something. Oh, that was ICE. That is way different.
Well, Jane, it just goes to show you, it’s always something.
Never mind. ”
– Roseanne Roseannadanna
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:15 pm)Yes, the third dimension!
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:18 pm)I’ve also had that thought about the new Camaro’s resemblance to the Show car Volt. Kind of makes me wonder if the Show Volt wasn’t really an early concept in that line, hastily nabbed to promote the idea.
If Volt is the success we all hope it will be, perhaps Lutz will write a ‘tell-all’ book.
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:19 pm)This brings up two interesting points. The first is that if you’re concerned about gas consumption a Prius makes more sense than a Volt when the mileage is low. At 50 MPG and 4K miles a year you’re talking about 80 gallons of gas. That would mean you’d be filling up every six or eight weeks. Even if gas were $10/gallon you’d never make up the additional costs of the battery pack since you’d only be spending $800 per year. And of course gas is more like $3/gallon so even if electricity were free — which it almost is when you compare its costs to the price of gas — you’re maximum savings could only be be $240 per year. That’s not much money.
If you’re interested in performance then that’s something else, but basically you get 2/3rds of all possible gas savings going from 20 MPG to 50 MPG.
The second interesting point is that avoiding trips by doing things like telecommuting saves gas and probably gives you more time for other things as well. Nice move!
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:22 pm)You make some interesting and believable points. Thanks.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:23 pm)We get our Volts (in Georgia) after you do.
I suspect they will arrive on the day that the first fusion-powered automobile to use Diolithium Crystals is announced.
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:24 pm)Did someone call my name? (Back for lunch, so I have to be quick).
GM will not at all have any problem whatsoever with the training of their internal techs. The very best of those very best are likely already chosen. The training will not at all be hard. The various components are all “unitized”, so that there will be relatively expeditious “R & R’s” (removal and replacements), as well as a quick reflash which is likely to occur by Voltec-request through the OnStar.
All proofing of all systems has already been done per GM’s relentlessly scientific approaches. (Not just throwing in a bunch of systems and then empirically-checking for weak spots when failure takes place, and experimenting as to how to remedy and prevent the re-occurrence of that failure).
No other electrified-vehicle OEM could ever possibly get my vote, because down through the last 40 years of seeing how GM carefully constructs vehicle wiring systems, etc, there just is not going to be something I am going to be concerned about regarding Volt.
Yes, the initial numbers are going to be low. I would even recommend some sort of a “condition of privilege” clause for the initial sales that would include as part of the cost to purchase a Volt (GM pays you a check of a dollar, or more if they choose), such “condition of privilege” so as to cause the requirement of only one driver allowed to drive it in such as way as to allow for the non-confounded datasets to be able to be acquired (through the OnStar) that the various agencies need to independently establish efficiencies and data characteristics that “strictly-normal” driving characteristics would yield.
Otherwise, the studies would be severely compromised if abusiveness was subjected to Volt during these critical studies. Driving loads at “steady-state” as much as possible, for example, might be what those agencies firstly need for compilation of datum.
(Back to work. Lots of Genisys units to close)
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:24 pm)I would expect that training program to be well under way by early summer of next year. GM will train those from selected dealers in the selected markets first. If you can find out the training schedule and where the trainees are from, then you know the Volt release cities. But it is not too difficult to guess many of the release cities.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:27 pm)Zel,
You have good credentials for either an early test vehicle or be close enough to an early release city that you should be able to get a gen 1 Volt by early 2011. Most of us may not be so lucky. You might have to go to Orlando to get your Volt.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:28 pm)I never buy 1st year production vehicles. It’s never been a great experience and the second year always has great improvements. like anything else.
So I personally wont sweat it a bit and will be a smart buyer waiting for the price to be equal to reality. I can just imagine the outrage when 2 years after introduction a far better battery and efficiency is far cheaper and the gen 1 volts are worth 40% of the sticker. The savings while waiting will offset gas at $4.50 a gallon with no problems at all…
That said it will be cool to see some on the road.
By the way cash for clunkers was a joke. All our tax money supporting overseas car sales. WTF was that all about. Should have been for GM, Ford & Chrysler only. Very Stupid Obama
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:29 pm)I assume you mean the passenger rail system.
Listening to my grandmother, you’d think trains were hated so much that people could not wait to get off of them and into cars, once roads and prices cooperated.
If that’s not what you mean, well; I expect any karma was balanced out by the GM Electromotive Division.
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:29 pm)I think you’ve nailed it Mark! Yes, if GM keeps turning out 10K Volts a year while Nissan steps up production to 100K Leafs, then GM will lose its gamble to remake its image, at least for the demographic on the coasts. Having hyped the Volt from here to eternity, it would be lame to have such limited production. I’m not sure GM would be perceived as conspiring to not sell efficient vehicles, it would probably be more like “here GM goes again, long on the promise and short on the delivery. Snore. Bore.”
But the end result would be what you’re saying — a lost opportunity. GM has had a lot of those over the last thirty years and it certainly doesn’t need yet another. Hopefully it will figure out a way to get production up for 2012.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:31 pm)There is no way to measure where any of us (except Lyle, possibly) fits into the Volt’s “spectrum of things”. Position on the GM-VOLT.COM web-site does not mean much in the broad spectrum view of GM. The most any of us can hope for is that the gen 1 Volt will prove highly successful and GM will quickly ramp up production of the gen 2 Volt in enough numbers that most of us can finally serve up that Volt in the driveway. Good luck until then.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:32 pm)That is true but the first of ANY car (except maybe the Aztec) will sell for high dollars. Especially when it is for charity. Imagine having the first car that changed the auto industry and what it would be worth.
If they list the Volt in the auction list I will definitely post it here. I’m sure you would tune in for an hour or so to see it sell.
I hope they do sell it there. They get a few hundred thousand people that show up to the auction over 7 days not to mention the free advertising GM would get from the TV coverage and all it would cost them is a $40,000 car.
FYI-The first production 55′ t-bird sold for around $600,000 last year.
PS- I think speed had about 40 hours of live coverage last year. I watched just about every night for a few hours. Definitely a car guy.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:42 pm)There is a sense that range is a huge barrier for BEVs but my guess is that it won’t be. My guess is that the range anxiety is a much bigger deal for people who don’t own a BEV than for those who do. Asking people who have never driven a BEV how they’d behave if they did — as in the survery Lyle posted a few days back — can’t possibly yield any valuable information.
To me the only real piece of data we have about range anxiety comes from EV1 users. When given the choice, almost all EV1 users passed on the opportunity to upgrade their battery pack and increase their range. That seems to demonstrate that BEV drivers, as opposed to prospective drivers, aren’t all that concerned about range anxiety.
My guess is that the first people driving BEVs will become comfortable with the technology, and this attitude will get passed on to friends, neighbors, and co-workers.
Of course won’t make a BEV useful for a 500 mile trip, but for households with more than one car a BEV might make a lot of sense, especially if they drive enough miles to recoup the battery cost. More so if like Lyle they can recharge at work.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:43 pm)GM started taking pre-orders on the 2010 Camaro’s starting on October 13, 2008. I pre-ordered one on January 10, 2009. Production started on March 15, 2009. The first two months of production were limited so they could work out all of the manufacturing kinks. Around mid May GM ramped up production to around 450 cars a day 5 days a week (one shift). Starting around July GM added a Saturday shift. My car was delivered to me on July 6th (vin 20,xxx). There are some people that ordered the Camaro on October 13, 2008 and still have not received delivery. It is based upon how many allocations each dealer received. If a dealer has an allocation, they submit an order. Larger dealers receive bigger allocations.
So how will this correspond to the Volt? If GM allows the public to pre-order the Volt and you want one as soon as possible… then you better order it on day one from a dealer with a lot of allocations. My guess it will still take 6 months to a year after production starts before it would be delivered. GM has said they will target certain areas of the country first and not all dealers will be able to sell the car. It could take a few years before you see any on a dealership lot (not already accounted for).
There are still 10,000 Camaro’s on back order from customers. The only way you will see a Camaro on a dealership lot is if a customer decided not to take delivery.
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:44 pm)Jackson,
I think you are pegging it about right on the production/availability schedule. Two things might get GM off this slow roll out schedule. One, very high demand. Two, drastic reduction in battery cost, but still requires number one to cause heavier commitment to more production by GM. So, the most important factor, as always, is very high demand. Here’s hoping!
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:44 pm)matt_b,
We appreciate you taking the high road.
Thanks.
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:46 pm)I can speak Mandarin. Please send me a Volt! (UPS is preferred but USPS would be OK as well).
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:46 pm)There are just too many other issues that make me want a Volt over a Prius:
1) Made in USA
2) Ability to use near zero gas.
3) Actually my electricity is free — I have about 13KW of solar power, and just plain want to power my ride with the sun – I’m at net zero now, and working on saving 1000KWh / year for the Volt.
4) Hundreds of people that visit my house each year (ok ~200 last year) to look at energy efficiency (my place http://www.netzeroenergy.org). So having a Volt on the driveway shows support for Volt to other people that are likely looking at various hybrids.
5) My mileage could go up – yes I could change cars.
6) In a capitalist society sometimes your biggest voting ability is with your wallet!
Performance isn’t really an issue for me.
Another reason to hang on to my gasser until Volt Gen II is since I do low mileage it stops someone else using my old gasser for high mileage.
So I guess my best plan is wait for Gen II and leave my phone number with the local dealer, with a note “When you stop marking up Gen II, give me a call”.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:46 pm)Maybe GM will release the 500 or so for “public” testing by then. Still, an Independence Day release either way would be good.
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:53 pm)In the minds of some people it is a left coast and right coast country with fly over territory in between. Most of those thinkers don’t really know much about the fly over country and don’t really give a rat’s a$$ about it either. So, Jackson, people living just north of Atlanta are like people living just north of Jackson, MS. Just-out-of-luck. I could have worded that just a little bit differently, but decided to tone it down a bit.
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:55 pm)I’m not too optimistic about America’s future either. But communist? After China takes us over? I just don’t see it. The Chinese government is not interested in governing America. They have enough to worry about with administering China.
Worst case scenario (and I don’t think this will happen either) is we form a colony relationship with them. Kind like Nigeria or Sudan. We still have a lot more natural resources than they do.
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:57 pm)Dr. Weber hinted at that earlier in a chat, so who knows…
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:58 pm)Don, I certainly agree with what you said about Lyle Dennis. He is definitely worthy of all the praise we can heap on him at this time. (Don’t go getting the big head now, Lyle. You might do something to tee us off and we can deflate you just as fast.)
Plus, what you said about the production schedule, if you want to call it that, makes sense. As usual you make a lot of sense. To me anyway. And I don’t care what Statik says about you.
Aug 27th, 2009 (1:59 pm)There will be others.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:00 pm)Agreed, assuming that the Volts are profitable at that point. I have a good imagination, but I can’t imagine that they won’t be profitable by then.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:01 pm)With no actual information or insight I’m betting it’s actually the other way around. The new Camaro has been in the works for a long time, I bet the Volt show car was styled after the initial new Camaro drawings.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:02 pm)Wait Wait I am confused
Jeff Belzer (Dealership) feels the Volt is worth 10,000 more than MSRP.
No one is forcing you to buy from that Dealership. If no one buys those Volts… then before long, Jeff Belzer will sell them at MSRP or less.
I agree, its a nastly tactic, and I personally would avoid any dealer who ever uses that policy, but realistically we are talking Supply Versus Demand. This is cars, not bread.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:04 pm)Thank you for your useful insights.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:04 pm)N. Riley
That’s the price we pay for nice sleeply little towns. Sometimes it comes back to bite us.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:05 pm)I agree with this…
Also, the huge loans the government has given GM to develop this car will just add to the negative press.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:05 pm)It gets quiet around here without Cap’n Jack. Where did he go? Other than Hooters?
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:06 pm)E430 Electric Aircraft
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxfsz95XHb0
Lithium batteries, 5 more years, three times the power, half the weight….yes we can?
=D~
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:09 pm)Sometimes, being “realistic” really sucks.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:11 pm)Bruce,
I find my self agreeing somewhat with what you and Mark said. GM is leaving the door open to be out developed and out produced. In the mind of the public GM could come out as third rate simply because of the slow roll-out and the bad perception of GM in the public’s mind already. But, at the same time, I fully understand the desire to roll this complex, costly vehicle out slowly to get a better feel as to how it will perform and stand up to normal driving by “normal” people who sometimes act like idiots on the road. I can see both viewpoints.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:13 pm)Very good play on words, Jackson.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:14 pm)As N Riley wrote, thanks Nasaman, you show it is always valuable to have a competent engineer with you.
Regards,
JC
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:14 pm)That is a decision each of us must make in the future. Your decision is your decision. Others will agree while others will not. Isn’t that great?
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:16 pm)Right.
Here is the problem, as an industry car dealers suck.
(Sorry corvetteguy but facts are facts.)
To break that mold GM should shred bad dealers ‘period’.
Dump the thieves and work with good people, maybe corvetteguy, as long as people pay the advertised ‘fair’ price.
I have been treated badly by several dealerships. (not just GM)
It really sucks to think the car is broken but I can’t go to the dealer because they will rip me off.
I have this very problem right now with my wifes car.
It’s making ‘bad’ noises but I KNOW that the dealer will try everything they can to rip us off.
So I have NOT yet taken it in.
She will NOT take it in because she gets treated ‘like a woman’ by the service people.
That’s not a good thing.
THIS is the reality for ALL car dealerships the bad apples have us as the consumer EXPECTING to get ripped off.
In my world that is a bad business model but it continues regardless.
Break this awful mold GM! Please!
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:17 pm)Same type of rationale a lot of people will be using in the future. Nothing wrong with your thinking. You have to do what is in your best interest first and foremost. Other than that you are not being true to yourself or your family.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:18 pm)Um, that’s sort of what I was trying to say. Camaro first, Show Volt ripped off (and with no intent of it ever seeing production).
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:19 pm)$30 million divided by 500 test Volts equals $60,000 each. Not bad for GM.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:19 pm)I forgot to add that there is also a Weber carburetor that was made in Italy and that the spouse of Mozart was also named (Constanze)Weber, etc.
JC
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:20 pm)But, Still have the web site to make his gouging open for all to see and sooner rather than later he will see the light that being one of the non gouging dealers is more profitable.
-11
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:22 pm)(click to show comment)
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:22 pm)I don’t think GM is able to devote as much time and money to “charity” these days. Let’s hope that if they do, they can justify it in spades. Has to be for the right “causes” or they will get trounced upon. Best if they just stayed off that band wagon until they repay the loans and buys back the government stock options.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:24 pm)I have lived in “sleepy little towns” and bustling big cities. I will take the sleepy little towns any day of the year.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:31 pm)I was with you on A and C. I did not understand D enough to get it – maybe it has come to Noel by now, but I am still waiting. As far as B is concerned, while I agree it will be good to stop importing oil, I suspect the U.S. will still be on Oil Transport Cop duty for the other countries of the world because we are somewhat stupid in thinking they will “appreciate” our efforts and the blood of our young we may spill to protect “their” oil life-lines. Sometimes we, as a country, never learn our lesson. We are destined to repeat the same stupid mistakes of our fathers.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:33 pm)Rashiid
I will try again regarding places to go in western NC.
Any chance you got aboard the Great Smokey Mountain Railroad for the scenic ride in the mountains?
I have done it twice with my grand children and loved it both times.
And I still want my Volt NOW!!!
-10
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:34 pm)(click to show comment)
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:36 pm)Oops. My blond… Sorry Jackson.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:37 pm)Have need, will travel.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:37 pm)A few things
#1. Both the Volt and the Prius as C-Class Cars comparable to Civic/Corolla. They are not Midsize class, even if the Hatch Area makes you think they are.
#2. Your being a bit…. unfair to give the Prius better than its EPA rating, while penalizing the Volt. Prius rarely get 50 mpg combined per EPA. There are after all -4- generations of Prii. More likely the average Volt will use around 70 gallons, not 100.
#3. Its really unfair to compare a car effects that have been out for a -decade- already to one not even published. Just doesn’t make sense.
A Better Comparison would be the first 3 years of the Prius Versus the First Three Years of the Volt
Prius (Sales) Year 1 – 300 Year 2 – 17,700 Year 3 – 15,200
Combined EPA Rating for GEN 2 is 41, so for Gen 1, lets say 40 mpg combined.
Typical C-Class Car averages around 28 mpg
Prius (Year 1-3), 33,200 cars at 40 mpg
Volt (Years 1-3), ?? (Min 10,500) at 230 mpg
Over 15,000 miles
Prius= 33,200 * (15,000/28-15,000/40)= 5.31 million saved
Volt= “X” * (15,000/28-15,000/230) = 5.31 million saved – X= 11,500
Conclusion, if over the first 3 years of the Volt program, GM sells more than 11,500 Volts, it will reduce Oil consumption more than the first three years of the Prius program.
Is this a reason to “wait” for a Volt. No. If you have a need for an Auto today, get a Prius, drive it for 10 years and buy Gen 3 Volt. Thats what makes sense.
If you care about Fuel consumption 20 years for now, cheering on programs like the Volt makes sense. In 20 years, cars like the Prius or Volt might not even exist in the new car area, but of the two, I would prefer Volts over Prii.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:38 pm)A prime example of the potty mouthed web troll invading where it isn’t wanted.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:40 pm)I gotta ask it..everytime I see a comment like this..
ok..
please list the MSRP for both vehicles and the link proving it..not the ones speculating on the costs..I want facts, otherwise your comapring an imaginary price on an unreleased vehicle, to another lower imaginary price on another unreleased vehicle..
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:42 pm)I think its his creative attempt at getting an early Volt.
-8
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:43 pm)We were all wanted when this site got published on the internet. Freedom of speach, don’t like go elsewhere.
Seems more often than not your current residence of bloggers seem to splat obscenities freely as well.
Hypocrites.
Of course it’s just your ways of deflecting the true negatives of the Volt.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:44 pm)Well said.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:44 pm)I am sorry, CorvetteGuy, but I don’t think the dealers we have to worry about is going to be gauging public opinion at first. They are going to see that they have a product that a lot of people are asking for and there is a chance to knock off a few more thousand on each sale. I can understand it from their perspective and I can understand it from the perspective of someone who is willing to pay that premium just to have the opportunity to purchase a Volt much sooner that normal. I don’t blame the buyer, but I do blame the dealer for doing that and GM for allowing it to happen. It just will not happen to me because I have always walked away from price + premium deals. I will continue to do so in the future. I don’t have to have a Volt that bad.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:44 pm)Good name by the way..you should keep usiing it…its seems to be where your thoughts can be found..
Anyway..so your BEV dies, and a volt dies…the volt driver gets a jerry can and he’s off.. you on the other hand get one of those incredibly efficient no polluting tow trucks to take you home so you can wait 3-4 hours using your special charger before you can go out again…
the volt = go cart….your BEV becomes a brick on wheels.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:46 pm)they basically took a golf cart..threw a comero body on it and introduced it as the volt. (its the rumour back at the NAIAS)
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:46 pm)thanks for the info
Dan P too
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:46 pm)Jim I:
Too true, alas.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:48 pm)liquor store?
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:48 pm)We don’t have a source for this 10,000 number. I wouldn’t get too Riled up yet. As for me, myself and I, I’m shooting for a Volt in 2012 anyway.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:48 pm)I think you are right there, we don’t know the numbers yet but they will rollout gen 2 once they can build and sell at a profit in the $28-35k range.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:49 pm)Yeah, they probably have 500 Hollywood celebs and high level politicos signed up already, LOL. 2012? I hope so.
-3
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:50 pm)A lot of people said something like that last year and the year before… “Watch out, Toyota! GM’s got products that will kick your @$$!!”
And the people who pay attention to the business and to what sells and what doesn’t sell and what’s profitable and what isn’t profitable said, “For GM, there may not BE a tomorrow.”
And, sure enough, GM went bankrupt by banking on tomorrow.
Right now, we don’t know if GM has the cash flow to stay in business, even with the shiny new balance sheet that Bob Lutz is proudly showing off. Never mind all the people that got the shaft in that and the taxpayer’s on the hook and all the ill will of years past, Lutz thinks GM is competitive now because they removed a lot of obligations and interest burden. Their products are all good and GM is golden.
Suuuure.
But maybe El Lutzbo should take another look. People used Cash for Clunkers as a way to bail on their GM cars. They used the extra cash that their clunker was worth to shift to Toyotas and other non-Detroit cars. GM’s “market share” in the C4C period was lower than their previous market share.
And Toyota has a talent for satisfying customers, so those defectors are GONE. And their happines will affect other potential customers. The erosion continues.
What I’m getting at, here, is that worrying about tomorrow is for tomorrow… GM still isn’t out of the woods TODAY.
And, in any event, as far as the Volt and Voltec platform goes, “tomorrow” is actually in 2014 or so, when GM MAY start to offer enough volume in Voltec vehicles to actually challenge the Prius, which is building in half-million units per year quantities TODAY. That’s 5 years of profitable Prius sales down the road.
What will Toyota do with that money? My guess: Build themselves a bigger club with which to beat GM even harder.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:50 pm)Maybe there will be a gm-volt.com special edition!
With our own tacky little sticker on the fender!
That would be funny and cool!
OK, maybe cool is a stretch but fun for sure!
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:51 pm)Right on – as usual.
Lyle is the engine of our Volt site.People like you, DonC, RB, DaveG and too many to name provide the sheet metal. The wheels are provide by people like Statik, Nasaman and Noel Park – to name just a few. Ours is a funny looking Volt, but GM would be smart to emulate it as much as they can. It will take us around the world and back in just seconds.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:53 pm)We can torture test it by driving it around the freeways in LA. It’s almost as good as the Baja 1000, LOL.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:54 pm)It’s good to be back. Work was insane for the past couple of weeks. I was in London for four days–great city, but I didn’t have too much free time. Things should be quieter for a while though.
I agree that bad dealerships is a huge problem. And GM should have used the bankruptcy procedures to identify these dealers and get rid of them. Although I think that probably is easier said than done. And they didn’t have very much time to make their decisions.
But state franchise laws protect the dealers. That means GM can’t shut them down or remove them from new dealer ranks. And if they posted a list like that–they would probably be sued and have to pay out billions in damages.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:54 pm)So 52/1.2 = 43.3 MPG (US) not bad, what was the EPA rating?
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:56 pm)Don’t forget Detroit.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:56 pm)Mark:
Well said. Good on ya mate.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:58 pm)“40k vs 22k”
This is a big misconception.
That 22k Prius is stripped. You may not care about some of the things Stripped like Fog Lights, HomeLink Transceiver, option for Navigation, etc. Its just hard to compare a the “value” of a 40,000 dollar car to a 22,000 car without knowing the inclusions of the 40,000 dollar car. For example, Fog Lights are ~400 dollar up charge, if you can add them, on that 22,000 Prius.
Aug 27th, 2009 (2:59 pm)+1 for quoting Roseanne Roseannadanna!!!
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:01 pm)Toyota dealers have a lot more Priuses to sell. GM is only making 10,000 for the first year. That spells mark-ups. Probably on a massive scale. It’s all about supply and demand.
Why do you think GM is talking about ebay? They’re trying to capture some of that mark-up for themselves. And I don’t blame them.
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:06 pm)You are correct on many points. In fact, I was talking with our GSM and he was telling me that back in the late 80′s and through most of the 90′s, if you had a chunk of money (a few million in your pocket) then ANYONE could get a GM dealership. Didn’t matter if you knew squat about the car business. The good news is that many of those crappy dealers were the ones who got axed earlier this year because of the GM realignment.
The business model of a ‘car dealership’ is never going to go away for the simple reason that the manufacturer builds the cars and sells them to the dealers for resale. Without that, then they would make fewer cars per year out of fear of being ‘stuck’ with excess inventory. The auto makers could care less if the dealers are stuck with them, because they know they will sell eventually. But in the meantime, they have already been PAID for those cars they built. Meaning: in a bad economy the dealer gets screwed from both directions.
That should make you feel better.
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:09 pm)N Riley:
Well it’s just my interpretation, LOL, but I think that d) was an expression of global warming denial.
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:11 pm)Astroturfing. It’s all part of the fun in the blogosphere.
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:11 pm)Wrong about the Prius actual production numbers.
http://www2.toyota.co.jp/en/news/08/0515.html
Straight from Toyota. It was not until 2001 that Prius numbers reach 30,000 -worldwide-.
This would be 2014 for the Volt.
If was not until 2004 that numbers reached 30,000 for North America… and then only for the -Third- Generation of the platform. (The 2010 Prius being the Third that reached the US)
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:11 pm)I assume like every other franchise I have ever heard of there is a yearly renewal. These updated franchise contracts would state that if you gouge you are gone. They simply don’t renew the franchise for the next year to dump the bad apples being sure that they know WHY.
I don’t pretend to know the law at that level but it seems crazy that a company cannot ‘drop’ a bad distributor.
If that is the case then the law is broken and it needs to be fixed.
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:12 pm)I think this is ONE troll under several names. You will notice a lack of logic and the need to use name calling to back up weak arguments.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:12 pm)Gilda Radner RIP. One of the funniest women in history, IMHO. Well done Loboc.
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:15 pm)You just described the meaning of “supply and demand”.
It is not criminal (as some keep screaming at me) to sell a vehicle to a customer for the “suggested retail price” if that is what they want to pay. By the same token it is not criminal to sell it for MORE than the MSRP if that too is what they buyer wants to pay to GET WHAT THEY WANT.
I’m sure most of you here have watched the Barrett-Jackson auctions on SPEED Channel. People are paying $100,000 to $500,000 for cars there. I don’t see a soul calling the auctioneer a ‘criminal’ (or dirt bag scum bucket)… Why is that? In fact people applaude selling cars for high prices there.
It all depends on your point of view.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:15 pm)and a couples years after you get the Volt I will finally see one in northern Alberta. Not holding my breath to ever seeing a Volt in an Edmonton dealership.
Cheers!
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:18 pm)violence..whether physical or verbal..is the first refuge of the incompetant…
+3
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:21 pm)MuddyRoverBob:
I don’t know much about it, but I assume that part of the value of a blog to advertisers is the total number of comments. So any comment’s a good comment from that point of view. Plus I keep commenting “astroturfing” because it’s my new favorite political/PR buzzword. Meaning false grassroots response paid for and orchestrated by corporations and/or their PR consultants.
I don’t want to give these recent trolls (troll?) too much credit, but I suspect some of that going on here. So, if they are getting paid to “astroturf”, it’s actually a benefit to us, as it makes GM-Volt.com stronger and more capable.
So bring it on Charles Manson, et al, says I. You’re actually doing us a big favor.
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:22 pm)I’ve seen and heard a LOT worse about prototypes!
We once had a highend communications server assembled with hot glue the night before a trade show…
(company and product names withheld to protect the guilty!)
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:23 pm)There were a few references to vacation a week or so back.
-7
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:24 pm)Because you Homo it is an EV with a range extender.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:28 pm)Better.
You are welcome to share your opinion in a civilized manner.
But be realistic, you are on a Volt fan-site.
There is a fair chance you are going to be considered a troll if you act like one.
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:42 pm)I do not blame the dealers and I certainly don’t think it is criminal. I just would not purchase a vehicle where I had to pay a premium because it was in short supply and high demand. I would wait or purchase the next best vehicle on my list.
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:45 pm)On the sales side maybe. Gouging should still be disallowed with the loss of franchise being the penalty.
But… WHY for god sakes is the service side of all dealerships SO terrible? I’m not going to bother giving examples, if you are paying attention you have heard them.
My wife was actually accused by the service writer of burning the clutch out of her car. (Opon removal it was an obvious manufacturing defect. ‘not a GM dealer in that case’)
The transmission ‘blew up’ in a friends S10, the dealer and the GM regional office gave him the run around and it ended up costing him thousands of dollars. He swears he will never own another GM vehicle as long as he lives.
This is a big problem.
There is an opportunity here for good dealers to shine and GM to give back to the people who allow them to keep doing what the do by buying cars.
I hope you ARE a good dealer Corvetteguy!
I truly do and if you ARE then this would be GOOD for you because you will get the sales and the service work that would have gone to the crook down the street.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:49 pm)The bankruptcy issue is a complex and long-running disaster, with roots going back decades before the Volt was announced.
It’s a fact that Toyota has felt the effects of the current economy, and another fact that Toyota is a frequent recipient of government (Japanese government) largess.
If you deny that the success of Toyota’s Prius was many years in coming, at the same time as trashing GM’s Volt before it’s debut, you are being far from fair.
As to Toyota satisfying customers, that is no doubt the finest achievement of unfair misinformation in automotive history. Yes, when Toyo was just establishing itself, a generation of buyers were deeply disenfranchised by the US makers (all of them), who were caught resting on the laurels of past glories. When the need was for smaller cars, GM & the others were caught napping, and Japanese companies with a long history of building small cars ate their lunch.
That was then. This is now. The roads are filled with Japanese whales, and many GM makes are clearly superior. “Conventional” wisdom, media prejudice, and endless rants by cretins like yourself have blinded N American buyers to the fact that many US models are in fact superior to their foreign counterparts. Yes, typically the larger ones. Yes, much left to do to get better on smaller ones.
I don’t see your rantings as a solution to anything but your own pent-up hatred of US manufacturing.
NO ONE IS GOING TO PUT A GUN TO YOUR HEAD AND FORCE YOU TO BUY A GENERAL MOTORS PRODUCT. Go happily to your Toyota dealer and buy a Prius. Enjoy the next 5 years of incremental, evolutionary improvements. Don’t spill your guts all over people who hope for more than what conservative Japanese engineering and business are willing to dole out.
And try to remember all of this, including your behavior today, 5 and 6 years from now.
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:52 pm)Hey, Old Man. If Rashiid isn’t interested in the Great Smoky Mountain Railroad, I am. That sounds like a great place to take my grand kids next spring or next fall. This year is out of the question. But next year would be good. I love the area around Asheville. I am going to put it down as a place to check out along with the railroad. Thanks.
Why don’t we have the next Volt Nation in Asheville, NC.? Lyle???
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:55 pm)Sad to even think that, but you are probably correct. Sad, sad if so.
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:56 pm)N. Riley,
Excellent analogy! I’ve been told that I’m just FULL of sheet (metal), many times!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:56 pm)Yeah, I feel your “pain”.
-9
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:57 pm)It’s an EV, then it turns into a dirty gas polluter.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:58 pm)First of all the Barrett Jackson auction is a playground for crazy rich people with too much time on their hands. The prices paid there are rediculous.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the Volt supposed to be the new everymans car? What sort of message is being sent if GM’s new “everyman’s” car is $50k??? All those “gubment motors” folks will be circling like sharks.
This car is about the future of GM (and a whole lot of jobs) huge markups hurt everyone involved, including the dealer making the gouge in the first place.
People will vote with their wallets, gouging will send those wallets elsewhere.
Frankly neither your dealership OR GM can afford that.
Aug 27th, 2009 (3:59 pm)(whispers) “I think steel is really Statik”
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:00 pm)Wow, I take this to mean that the Volt is in flux!
-1
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:01 pm)Huh? Did you reply to the wrong comment, Mitch? Take your meds today or did you overdose? Shouldn’t overdose, you know. No discussion of prices in this tread of comments (#22). Look again, my friend. Your mouse must have “jumped” on you.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:03 pm)The plan as I recall was for 60000 volts in years two.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:04 pm)Noel,
Let’s just say it was an expression of something. But you are most probably correct. Again!
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:06 pm)He does have some point though. Whenever a BEV gets brought up, it gets bashed for “range anxiety”. But then people still want it to be seen as an EV when it still burns gasoline (and mostly people bring up the 40 mile average number to say the gasoline burning is minimal, but then wouldn’t that mean the “range anxiety” isn’t that big of a problem in everyday driving since most EVs get at least 100 miles of range?).
It seems like the Volt is something in between. It’s closer to BEV than a hybrid or a PHEV, but it’s not quite a BEV.
As for which one will prevail, I initially expect the Volt and the PHEVs to do better since it’s more practical today, but I expect BEVs to become common once batteries get cheaper and more charging stations are installed. However, the wildcard is still the Nissan Leaf. If it comes in near or under $30k (with the battery pack) in a similar time as the Volt (and the Volt stays near $40k), then it might change the game.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:13 pm)Noel,
Fair enough, but I got enough of that sort of language in the military (Canadian Air Force… CF-18) it’s just not necessary.
I served to protect freedom, all I ask is in return that people be somewhat nice on a board such as this.
There are places on the net where bad language is NOT the offensive thing, so they can go swear there if they feel the need.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:25 pm)Here are some real world observations.
Most times with a BEV, people are scared to drive even 1/2 the noted range.
Why? Same reason that most people fill thier car up when they have 50+ miles left.
Most people are terrified of being stranded. To the point of irrational behaviour. Now, if we map the same over on a BEV. Any BEV with a range less than 50 miles at -any- point of the trip will be worriesome to many people. One that -starts- a trip with less than 50 will be unacceptable.
And for the record, 30 minutes of “quick” charge to get a measily 80 LA04 miles doesn’t really compare to 5 minutes at a gas station for ~300+ HWY miles.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:26 pm)Lol. Welcome to the US legal system. No one ever said it made any sense. And the dealers are a very powerful political group. Did you see the congressional hearing where they interrogated Jim Press and Fritz about terminating some of their dealers? The members congress were basically telling the CEOs that they didn’t believe it would save GM and Chrysler money to cut down their dealer base. The whole thing was bizzare.
Yes. There are contract renewals, but I’d be shocked if GM could add that clause. The dealerships are very protected by state law.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:28 pm)I’m sure everyone here is looking forward to the day when the VOLT goes all BEV with a battery the size of your fist; gets 500 miles per charge; and can recharge in 3 minutes with ordinary household current.
Until that day comes the current EREV VOLT is the most practical solution.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:33 pm)Strip bar?
He’s got a standard to uphold.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:33 pm)No, I do not mean transparency. I took a big negative vote hit last thread when I suggested this, but responsible companies do not say they can do something until they are SURE they can do something.
What advantage is there for a company to advertise 3 or 4 years in advance of a product release? To give the people on GM-Volt.com something to talk about? Certainly not to educate the consumer! I thought that was one of the advantages of the Volt, that it is just like an ICE car to the drive? Why do I need 3 or 4 years of prep? That must be one complicated plug. Or do they want me to know that if I drive 230 miles in the city I only have to put in 1 gallon of gas? Just don’t ask about the highway. No, they aren’t really educating the consumer.
There are very few reasons for a company to talk so openly (to a point!) about something they have so little knowledge of. Current bad product is a factor. To cause superior competitors (Yes, it is true… hold the negative! Picture Ford in your mind if it is easier to swallow than Toyota.) problems is another. To get government money and a bailout is another. So is PR.
If you doubt, look at how many people could have already saved more fuel with a Fusion or Prius hybrid than they will ever save with the Volt they are waiting for.
But don’t take it from me… take it from Lutz himself.
Perhaps GM won’t recant the 230 number, but there is no doubt that they SHOULD. I would expect nothing less from such a ‘transparent’ company.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:37 pm)1) By interior volume, the Prius ranks as midsize. The Volt, on the other hand, will only have seats for 4.
2) Au contraire… I’m being realistic about the Prius and kind to the Volt. On the EPA website, they accept real-world observations from owners. Right now, the 2010 Prius averages 51.1mpg, from reports by 30 owners. The Volt… well… GM’s not too keen on talking about what it will really do? However, we hear it will have an 8 gallon tank (recent Detroit newspaper article). And 40 miles of range. At a recent event, Weber was asked if you could go from Detroit to Chicago on a charge and a tank. He said he wasn’t familiar with the distance between the two cities but if it’s not over 300 miles, it should be OK. Go do the math. Charge-sustaining mode might be as low as 33mpg.
3) If GM isn’t interested in having comparisons drawn between their vaporware and a real car, they should stop talking about their vaporware and focus on the cars they actually build.
I’m perfectly willing to cheer for products and technologies that companies are willing to produce in quantities significant enough to make a difference. By the time that Volt hits the streets, we’ll be further behind the 8-ball on reducing our balance of trade problem, adding CO2 to the atmosphere, depleting natural resources, etc.
Billions are being spent on the Volt, both investments by GM and supports from the Federal government. What else could be done with that money that would make a difference TODAY? There are MANY projects that could be undertaken that would make a difference TODAY and lay the groundwork for a better future, too.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:38 pm)That’s because at the Barrett Jackson auction people know what they’re getting themselves into. And, presumably, those cars are in very limited supply. And they won’t make any more of them.
There are two different scenarios here. 1) Person A has got to have the new Camaro as soon as it comes out. In order to do this, he knowingly pays a $5000 premium. It’s worth it to him to have that car ASAP. 2)Person B wanders into a dealership. He sees and falls in love with the Camaro. The dealer tells him it’s a “hot” car, with a huge year-long waiting list, but the dealer will do him a favor and sell it to him at only $10,000 over MSRP. He’s marked it up by $15,000, and he’s sure if he waits a week, he’ll get it. He has in the past, and he knows a few people who are dying for the car. But he needs the money right now for some reason. The dealer may even lie about MSRP. Person B loves the car and buys it. Meanwhile, unknown at the time to Person B, at the dealership down the road he could have gotten it for $10,000 less.
The first scenario is fair. The second is shamelessly taking advantage of someone who didn’t know that they needed to do their research. Big difference.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:39 pm)Heh… in doing some research I came across this quote on MSN:
“Robert A. Lutz, GM vice chairman explained that in addition to showcasing the E-flex propulsion system, the Volt was designed to show that environmentally conscious vehicles can also look good. While it features cutting edge technology, the Volt is also a design study.”
It is kind of funny in light of the “better in the wind tunnel backwards” comments. Even though I now know that GM knew pretty much nothing about the Volt when they showed the concept, revisiting these quotes still continue to amaze me.
Think about it… they probably never even put the concept in the wind tunnel before they sold the public on it! And look what happened. Now that is a nice summary of the Volt.
-1
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:39 pm)And, at this point, we have no idea what GM will provide for $40K. Futher, $22K is the minimum for the Prius. The MINIMUM for the Volt remains at… $40K. It costs $40K to play whether you want HomeLink or that other crap or not. And most of that, I don’t need or want.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:40 pm)“for the price and the driving I do”….
Obviously the Original Poster 22 was assuming the Leaf will be priced significantly less than the Volt.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:42 pm)And I don’t care what Statik says about you
statik? Who the heck is that?
Actually I fear that statik and I agreed on a lot of things. The two exceptions were his willingness to take the EV ranges from press releases.at face value and my willingness to take statements from the technical people at GM at face value. Maybe there were a couple more. Let’s see …. Bob Lutz would be one more … and the desirability of Bob Lutz’s tie another.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:44 pm)Right you are.
Currently electric cars that are remotely affordable have very limited ranges. The Leaf assuming it really makes the 100 mile (160km) range with either the heater or the AC working in real world driving ‘could’ be my wife’s car.
The problem is that I don’t think it will.
She has one day of the week where she has ~130 km to cover with work commute and the evening ‘run’, I don’t think the Leaf would make it with enough reserve and the prospect of her running on the last 20km of battery range would have her refusing to drive it. (she fills the tank at half)
In my job my daily drive can be as little as 40 km but with a phone call I could and have added hundreds of km’s to that. A Volt could do this, my current Malibu can, the diesel BMW could, the Leaf would be dead in a ditch.
EREV yes
Diesel yes
Gas yes
BEV, nope
-5
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:46 pm)Jackson writes, “yadda yadda yadda yadda… NO ONE IS PUTTING A GUN TO YOUR HEAD AND FORCE YOU TO BUY A GENERAL MOTORS PRODUCT.”
But someone is raiding my bank account to put people into a Volt. Someone raided my bank account to keep GM afloat so that it could sell cars that will be unprofitable.
Jackson also writes, “The roads are filled with Japanese whales, and many GM makes are clearly superior.”
Really? That’s not the judgement of the market… people used Cash for Clunkers to buy Toyotas. Hardly a sign of confidence in GM or agreement that many GMs are superior.
I’ll let you in on a secret, people often buy GMs because they’re cheap. GM puts a lot of cash on the hood.
Jackson also writes, “And try to remember all of this, including your behavior today, 5 and 6 years from now.”
And, if GM manages to stay in business and manages to build a whopping 60K Volts in 2014… behind about 5 million Priuses at that time, you expect me to feel sheepish about my behavior, or something? Don’t count on it.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:47 pm)Uh-oh. I think he’s OK. He was responding to the comment that “For the price and the driving I do”. I think his point is that it’s not possible to compare prices for two cars that don’t have MSRPs, much less decide on one or the other based on price.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:50 pm)Pretty crazy when state law makes it more likely for voters to get ripped off.
Sad state of affairs.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:55 pm)Person B will find out that they got ripped off and will carry $10000 worth of anger and will never return to that dealer and very likely never buy GM again.
This is how people start buying BMW/Mercedes/etc. They EXPECT the price to be high there.
Aug 27th, 2009 (4:57 pm)I assume that part of the value of a blog to advertisers is the total number of comments
Probably more visitors than comments. In that regard, have you noticed that Lyle is getting cites from both the GM Volt site (news links) and sties like autobloggreen? Between this site and allcarselectric.com, which has AFAIK the best set of reviews of all the different hybrids, he’s gone from a hobbyist site to being having more of a news blog. That’s a hard step to take.
Aug 27th, 2009 (5:04 pm)I posted this above. Basically to agree with your point, the data from the EV1 customers, who more or less uniformly chose not to upgrade to a battery pack with more range, suggests that as people use BEVs their range anxiety will dissipate. Their experience will gradually influence those who will buy later. It’s sort of how it happens with everything from new tech to immigration (which is why you find all those people from one area — like Armenians in Glendale CA — in one place). Pioneers go first, the word goes back, and more follow.
I don’t think, however, that most BEVs will get a real world range of 100 miles. That number seems more designed to address range anxiety as expressed by focus groups than anything else.
Aug 27th, 2009 (5:10 pm)MuddyRover
I can assure you that I would be one of those that would never darken that dealership’s door again. And I would tell all I knew about the premium [gouging] going on at said dealership.
Aug 27th, 2009 (5:15 pm)GXT,
I started and deleted this reply 4 times now and realize each time that neither of us will be of the same mind. I’m certain that I can’t change your mind (on anything). Whats the date of your MSN (consider the “source”) article? I don’t know what “standard practice” for concept cars is, but I doubt that it includes running wind tunnel tests. At that point, it really WAS just a concept. Did they study it in development? SURE! Don’t all mfg’s?
You’re very welcome to your views (and I’m just as comfortable with mine). If you think that the Volt doesn’t need any explanation, then you’ve got a bit of “learning” to do yourself.
Be well anyway,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (5:19 pm)Exactly.
Aug 27th, 2009 (5:19 pm)GREAT IDEA!!!!
Aug 27th, 2009 (5:37 pm)MuddyRover
I have noticed that I rarely am impressed with the intellect of a person with a foul mouth.
I assume I have met people with intellect and a foul mouth but, Dang if I can remember them.
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:10 pm)These numbers sound about right (300 units production by end of 2010, 10k during 2011) since they’ve only just started construction of the assembly plant for the Volt and for its battery pack.
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:13 pm)N. Riley >>> engine, sheet metal, wheels.
—
I agree with Tag that you have created a great analogy.
What you have said is really what the site is, and you have placed us pretty well in our respective locations on the vehicle. Thank you. Unforgettable.
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:18 pm)I got a pocket full of one$…. Why didn’t he invite me?
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:22 pm)Corvette Guy — I agree with you. If the dealer has something that I want, but that others want too, there is nothing wrong with selecting the buyer on the basis of who is willing to pay the highest price. It is how markets work.
In the past I’ve bought cars above MSRP and below, more often the latter. In most every case I enjoyed talking to the salesman. The only exceptions, which have been rare, have been when the salesman told me something I knew was not true and thought he knew that also. Most of the time that has not been the case, though, and the salesmen have done their best to make points that they thought I would find appealing, and that were also true. The result often has been a sale.
One part of the equation that somestime people don’t think about is that the market price of a car, any car, varies as time goes by. That affects both the buyers and the sellers. Cars are not intrinsically items that have a fixed, unchanging price.
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:29 pm)but there is a Prius now and not everyone cares that it MUST be plug in (though I agree, I want a plug in too). By 2012 and onwards, there may very well be a plug for the prius, and at sales of 10k quantity @ 40k in price for 2011, this will have no detrimental impact on Prius sales (creating a great revenue stream for Toyota to further its development).
the quantities GM is selling is understandable as they will be making a lose on each car; this is more about product recognition at this point and simply getting the wheels on the road – proof of concept. However, my point is – Toyota is being given a 5 year window (at least when considering quantities of sales and the price different) to produce a volt like car before they have to actually worry about Prius sales being impacted. Toyota may very well be doing this right now. The way the Prius is evolving, it will be there pretty soon anyway.
+2
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:36 pm)During my “Cash For Clunkers” search for a new car, one Toyota dealer in near the Air Force base had a $5K premium on all the 2010 Prius on the show room floor. The dealer on the north side of OKC sold at MSRP with no additional fee. I told the sales persons at gouging dealer that I would never shop there again and that Barnum was right, “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
It is critical to shop and compare pricing to avoid being taken advantage of, whatever you buy. The dollars you save will help you purchase a new VOLT someday when the price is right!
PS: I saved $7K and bought a Chevy HHR instead!
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:47 pm)The US average fuel consumption (average of all vehicles) has remained steady since 1980. It has been around 700 gallons per year for the last 29 years!
http://www.project.org/info.php?recordID=383
Despite the small increase (under 10%) in fuel economy we have apparently made up for that by driving more miles per year on average. That’s just peachy.
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:48 pm)I wouldn’t dream of counting on it.
Well folks, I guess he showed me.
This is what comes of talking to trolls.
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:49 pm)Xiao
I’d be happy to see a Prius plugin hit the market. The more the merrier. More choice is better. Etc.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:53 pm)Dagwood,
You sound awfully impatient. Tell me a program that will get where you want to go – without starting it.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:55 pm)MuddyRover;
I hear you. All I’m saying is it’s a lot easier to laugh at them than it is to get upset. And I think that they hate it even worse. JMHO.
I doubt if they change their stripes no matter what we do. it’s just an amatuer attempt at reverse psychology on my part. Maybe Dr. Tagamet can give us some guidance here, hehehe.
BTW, a MuddyRover is something you almost never see in LA. Lots of gleaming clean land Rovers with great big chrome wheels rolling down the freeway. Get mud on my $70K+ baby? Not in this life, LOL. I told my wife the other day, it’s one of the most off road capable vehicles in the world, but in LA they might as well be Mercedes 500s or some such. What a world.
Aug 27th, 2009 (6:56 pm)I’m sure you’re right. As to Dr. Dennis’ blogging success, amen. What a phenomenon. They’ll probably be teaching it at Harvard Business and Sloan pretty quick.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:02 pm)I tend to agree on several points on both fronts – though either way I would not call the Volt Vapour ware, it’s a real car which I trust will go on sale (just not yet)
I do think you don’t look at the past Prius to compare to the volt, look at what they sell now. The 500k they will sell will not be 10 year old Prius’s but the new ones. The consumption of fuel does seem to be around 50mpg in the world of real data.
Steel said:
“Prius (Year 1-3), 33,200 cars at 40 mpg
Volt (Years 1-3), ?? (Min 10,500) at 230 mpg”
this is not a good comparison, as you are not taking into account the overall real world difference on cars available at the time of sale of the Volt -i.e. the quantities of sales x reduction of fuel consumed per car (2010/2011 models of car) compared to current cars. Your assumption of 33,200 for 3 years for the Prius simply cannot be used all. Try 500k x 3 years as this is the projected sales for the time the Volt will be released over the next 3 years. don’t compare the past, its irrelevant to the here and now displacement of fuel consumed. Now do the math.
The Volt may win hands down on a 1 vs 1 unit, but then why not compare the Tesla to the Volt on a 1 vs 1 unit? Because it will not reflect real sales.
Look at the real world displacement. Dagwood55 is correct; the Prius displaces more fuel than the volt will in the first 3 years. After that, we have no idea what Toyota has planned, but I’m sure it will try to compete. If the Volt succeed with the all electric drive, expect a bigger electric motors, more battery power, and plug in the Prius. The Volt may be ahead of Toyota in technology now, but GM has given a large window of time for Toyota to catch-up due to limited sales, and such a high price point.
At first I thought Toyota would be worried about the Volt, but the more i think about it, the more obvious it becomes Toyota has nothing to worry about at all. GM is doing the market research for Toyota by looking at demand even where the car is more than 40k in price (minus any rebate). If the Volt is successful (which it should be), the limited actual sales restriction available will prevent damage to Toyotas sales. As sated above, this provides many years for Toyota to adapt without hurting the Prius sales. GM may be ahead in technology, but Toyota will have several years to adapt.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:04 pm)DocC:
I keep thinking that 100 miles range would work for me, as my round trip to work is about 50. But I have the same concern about the 100 miles in the real world. Most days I could get by without the heater or the AC. The problem is that most of the 50 miles is at 65+ mph on the freeway, and I can just see the range going in the dumper at that speed. And there is a BIG hill in the last 5 miles, which I bet is another serious issue.
And, as Muddy says, the phone can ring and I have to do another 100+ miles. At which point the game is over.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:06 pm)No s**t. You should be in the car with my wife when the low fuel warning light goes on, LOL. We used to have one of those talking Nissans. it would say “Fuel level is low” about every 5 minutes. Talk about stress, hahaha.
She won’t even discuss a BEV.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:06 pm)CorvetteGuy:
Yup.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:08 pm)DonC:
Or the Russian Mafia in North Hollywood, LMAO.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:09 pm)The reality is that eBay actually DRIVES up the prices of hot new models. There are dealers out there who will not take an order for any new model – rather, they will put it out to the highest bidder. In the past, this meant parking the car out in front of the dealership on a nice Saturday hoping a few interested customers walked in and they could pit one against another. But now eBay puts the vehicle out to millions of consumers – and the sad truth is there is always a greater sucker out there willing to overpay just to say they’ve got the first …. whatever model.
Look at the Chevy Camaro – hundreds of them have sold on eBay for thousands of dollars ABOVE MSRP. Somehow, there were enough foolish consumers out there willing to overpay.
My dealership, in CT, has gotten about 20 new Camaro’s so far – and we’ve sold everyone of them at MSRP. We try our best to sell locally – since we want to service the car too.
As for VOLT’s, we have a waiting list, but will not take deposits yet. We simply do not know how GM is going to do initial allocation – no dealer does – as GM has made no announcements. When the time is right, hard deposits will be in order – but its not time yet.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:10 pm)It was right after the concept was released.
I doubt wind tunnel tests are standard for concepts as well, but shouldn’t they be when you claim an electric range? Or suggest that the design “shows” something about what is possible for an efficient car?
We now know that that claim was baseless, but did it seem that way at the time? Did you actually assume that they were so incompetent they had no idea of the aerodynamics? Or that they knew but lied? Or did you assume they were telling the truth? That goes back to what I have said about how a company should operate and the true place of the Volt. It should also make you question what ‘transparency’ really gets you (transparent would have been Lutz saying, “I have no idea if this is appropriate for an efficient car, but I thought it looked good.”).
And keep in mind that this marked the moment in the public’s mind where GM “leapfrogged” Toyota… all based on car with a couple of standard batteries and detergent boxes under the hood that GM knew pretty much NOTHING about! Now that is brilliant PR.
Regarding explaining the Volt… The truth is that if GM REALLY explains the Volt then they will end up explaining to consumers why they SHOULDN’T buy the Volt. Don’t forget that the Volt is an attempt at a “one up”, not an attempt at building the right car. I know there was an attempt to spin the fact that other automakers hadn’t built an EREV as proof that GM was more technically advanced than them and only GM could do this “moonshot”. But that wasn’t the real reason any more than the Volt is a “moonshot”. They didn’t build it because there are better options.
So no, GM will not really explain the Volt and even if they did it wouldn’t take 4 years. That 230 number pretty much shows how they are going to go about this.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:13 pm)I can only go on the base price. Not everyone can afford the creature comforts – or they would buy a top of the line BMW instead of their current car. there is word the dealers are also going to charge a massive mark-up on the Volt too. at the end of the day, no-matter what is inside the cars, you can get the prius at 22k, and the Volt at 40k (minus rebates whilst they are offered)
I do not own a Prius, and I will buy a Volt the moment they are available in Australia as i know you will get a lot of extras inside for your 40k, but I am being realistic.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:14 pm)So in 1997, Toyota should not have produced the Generation I Prius with backing from the Japanese government? All the same arguments could be used there.
1.) As to the Size of the Prius. You do realize that the entire Hatchback area is included right?
The Interior Score for the Seat of Prius/ Civic Hyrbid/ Fusion Hybrid per EPA Intertior Volume Index Method Head X Shoulder X Leg
Front 52 / 51.6 / 54.4
Rear 41.5 / 39.2 / 45.4
Luggage 21.6 / 10.4 / 12
Passenger 93.5 / 90.8 / 99.8
Total 115.1 / 101.2 / 111.8
Yep the 2010 Prius is the “Biggest” of the Lot. Except if you mainly car about passenger volume. Then there is alot more difference between the Midsized Fusion and the Prius then the Prius and the Fusion. If the Prius only had a 10 cubic foot truck, then it would be solidly where it belongs in the C-Class.
2.) You do realize that the minority of Prius are not 2010 right? Anyway, the Volt will probably get better numbers than the EPA too. I have never driven a car that I got worse in myself. Furthermore, this point is rather dense. Should I compare only CD mode with the Prius. Unfair. Should I compare CS mode to the Prius. Unfair. SAE J1711 figures are based on US driving style in 2001. Seems as fair as we can get.
3.) Your the one who initied this thread. I don’t see anything in the title.
Your insistence, straw-man arguements, and illogical thought process lead me to conclude your either a Serious Fanboi or “Astroturfing”. I am going for Astroturfing.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:15 pm)Jackson, Muddy Rover, Mitch:
I think that you’re all right.
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:19 pm)CorvetteGuy:
Did you ever hear the famous James Carville line about tying a string around a $100 bill and trolling through the trailer parks in Arkansas?
Maybe that’s what happened. I know he’s from CA, but I bet it would work in a few places I could name here just as well, LOL.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:20 pm)or having more cars on the road….
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:26 pm)There’s a Holly Weber too!!!
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:42 pm)Wait..
No, the Minimum for a Prius per today in the US market is 22,750. Says so right at Toyota.
At this point, we have no -idea- what the Volt’s end cost will be besides the ramblings of Bob Lutz. We can agree this is not the best source in the world since he is not in charge of the Volt or Volt pricing. We do know that most purchasers will get a 7,500 dollar credit in the first few generations. Very similar to how the Prius recieved a similar credit, and ironically, balanced to the amount of gas actual saved.
And my point still remains, if you want to claim a Prius is only 22,000 or 21,000 you really comparing apples and oranges. After all, why can’t I just grab a Hyundai Elantra at ~14,120 and say, geesh, Prius is way overpriced. I can get nearly the same experience at more than 7,000 dollars less. That pays for -alot- of gas!
My Prius Price Point would be 30,957 to build a Prius with the features I want/need (I already have a car with all of these features). I bet I could do less than 28,000, but I can’t configure it right due to bundling, and I would be pissed to pay 27,000+ and not get a few of the features on my list while getting other ones I don’t want.
In comparision to 30,957. If the Volt can deliever the same features for less then ~45,000, I would prefer the Volt. 45,000- 7,500 – 5000 (estimated 10 year running savings) = 32,500 Which is acceptable to me for the look aspect.
But I find people rarely do this analysis. Quite truthfully, it takes even the 2010 Prius 5-7 years to make economic sense at MSRP versus MSRP with comparable cars. The same is True with the Volt. It won’t be the low cost, but that doesn’t mean the -Value-/Cost of the car is unreasonable
Aug 27th, 2009 (7:45 pm)______________________________________________________
Best I can translate GM’s responses and the cited Automotive News quoted in Lyle’s above article is as follows (but hope I’m not correct):
Nov 2010:
Production of a Volt Captured Fleet (as 2011 Models) of max 625 Volts (500 consumer + 125 commercial) paid for by the $30M DOE grant; therefore pricing the first 625 Volts @ $48,000/Volt.
Nov 2011:
Start of the first Production Volt’s (bascially Gen2 Volts) made available at Chevy dealers for general consumers (released as 2012 Models) but limited at ~10,000 units.
Bottom Line:
The general consumer availability of the Volt, albeit limited production, will be ~Nov 2011…not Nov 2010.
Hmmmmmm…..that sort of rings a bell….hmmmmm….oh yeah….here it is:
From March 24th 2009:
GM Closes to a Launch Plan for the Chevy Volt:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/24/gm-close-to-a-launch-plan-for-the-chevy-volt/
Repost Comment #105:
________________________________________
EV/EREV Revolution (aka Disruptive Event):
Because 2010 is clearly gearing up to be the starting line of an EV/EREV Revolution, the balance between being cautious in EV/EREV generation 1 & 2 rollouts and being first to market with available inventory will be a challenge for all automakers.
GM is correct in their plan to be disciplined in their 1st generation VOLT rollout so that they can quickly respond to the generation 1 vetting issues that will arise. Statik #21 is probably correct that the 2010 Generation 1 VOLTs will be more along the lines of an extended test/captured fleet. I do agree with other comment posters that GM’s above comment of “need to make sure that all of the charging infrastructure is in place” is nonsense.
The issue of battery supply meeting EV/EREV manufacturing demands will naturally scale in accordance to demand; there will however be advance strategic positioning involved by car makers on this point which will result in winners and losers determined by the strategic positions taken.
The upcoming EV/EREV revolution will be quick moving and change forever how cars are made and sold. It will be a “disruptive event”. Emerging EV/EREV automakers such as Tesla Motors and Aptera Motors have a very real potential of going from niche plays to mainstream competitors over the course of the next five years. Innovative and determined silicon startups are known for their ability to sneak up on old guard players by changing the rules on how the game is played.
Millions of EV/EREVS will be sold between 2010 and 2015. It gets down to which auto makers will survive the upcoming EV/EREV Revolution. It will be a Disruptive Event!
______________________________________________________
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:02 pm)Spooling up production will drop costs in and of itself.
I think the price of gasoline has alot to do with GM’s choice though.
Somewhere there is a spreadsheet that predicts demand for Volts. At 3.00 a gallon, its low at ~10,000 a year. At 4.00 a gallon… who knows, maybe 100,000 a year.
Personally, looking at the numbers numerous times, I think a value for gasoline that is greater than 4 dollars and more than 30 times the price per kWh will get -everyone- wanting to buy a Volt… a “tipping” point so to speak.
Example If electricity is .20 kWh –> Gas = 6.00 a gallon
People will flock like crazy to buy Volts.
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:15 pm)I’ve taken many road trips with ICEs. And I still fill up when the gas gauge hits half full. I doubt it be will any different with a BEV. And no one else’s experience would convince me otherwise.
My guess is that the EV1 drivers would have less range anxiety than the general population. Or they wouldn’t have chosen to lease one in the first place. There is definately a market for range restricted electric cars. I just don’t think it would appeal to the mainstream buyer . At least, not unless gas hits $20.00 a gallon.
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:26 pm)CDAVIS, why say you at the top of your post “but hope I’m not correct” ?
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:34 pm)Just on your point 2- “You do realize that the minority of Prius are not 2010 right? “. At the moment the majority of sales for the Volt are…. well, zero… but the time of sale of the Volt the majority of sales for the Pruis will be… well… the 2011 model of which we are running off the projected sales of 500k.
so comparisons should be on the 2011 model for each car. You can’t take past cars and compare with future cars of different manufactures and say current company X product is better than current company Y product. Take the current model of each manufacture and compare them.
I have no doubt the ETA standard will show the Volt as wining hands down, but you have to compare current models available and quantities what will be sold (even if they are just projected sales), as this is what the “displacement of fuel” will be based on.
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:44 pm)Is that who those people are? LOL
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:45 pm)Welcome back Laura. Haven’t seen you around for a bit.
As for the range anxiety — I never fill er up until either my bladder or stomach tells me it’s time for a break or I’ve got about 1/32 of a tank left. I depend on my little yellow light!
-1
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:48 pm)Homo
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:55 pm)” My guess is that the EV1 drivers would have less range anxiety than the general population. ”
Yeah, remember, only around 1,000 EVs were made at all.
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:58 pm)Hahah, I usually make a deal.
“If I ever ever run out of gas with you in the car, I will fill up when you say so from now on”
But I mean, people consider that Nissan annoyance a feature? Most cars still have 2 gallons… which I can stretch 40-60 miles under need…. can’t imagine being nagged 10+ times to fill up fuel
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:05 pm)______________________________________________________
That was my poor attempt of expressing that I hope my interpretation is incorrect that GM is limiting their Nov 2010 Volt production to a 625 Captured Fleet. I was hopping that GM was coming out in Nov 2010 with ~ 10K general consumer Volts available at Chevy dealers…but per my cited repost I concede that I understood why GM may decided to limit production in Nov 2010 to a Captured Fleet.
I believe GM is somewhat playing word games in terms of when production Volts will be available at Chevy Dealerships for general consumers. Will it be in 459 days as suggested by the Volt Countdown Clock on the GM-Volt.com home page or will it be more like 459 + 356 = 824 days?
Perhaps Lyle can somehow in the near future entice GM to provide layman’s clarity on this issue rather than clever opaque responses.
______________________________________________________
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:37 pm)I think… you have difficulty understanding how to compare technology.
Comparing Generation I of a new technology to Generation IV of an older technology is not valid comparison of the technologies. Regardless of the time period.
If we only ever invested into technologies that could already be mass produced, there would be no progress in the world.
Gen I Volt is significantly better Gen I and Gen II Prius
Gen I Volt is approaching Gen III and Gen IV Prius
Gen III and Gen IV Prius >>>>>> Gen I and Gen II
Ergo
Gen II and Gen III Volts will likely (not certainly) be better than Gen V Prius
And a last point
Toyota can only produce a car that they can sell. Its up to people to choose to reduce Pollution/Oil Usage Etc. If Toyota really wanted to reduce Oil Usage they could stop selling some of their more guzzling Auto Choices, which they have many.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:43 pm)Noel,
Yep, it should warm from the plug and from the battery once underway.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:48 pm)I see it as 500 of the ‘captured fleet’ are going to real-world drivers.
They may not be able to buy them, but, driving a rental is better than not driving.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:48 pm)Boy, down here near the bottom, things sure deteriorate! (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:54 pm)Hrm…. only $155 a year to see what Automotive News has to say about it.
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:57 pm)You want to see GM start selling the Volt before November 2010?
Don’t buy or lease any new GM vehicle.
The Government and GM will get the hint.
The Cash for clunkers program was just one of the many incentives we’ll see to allow the auto industry to dump their old ICE tech cars on the uninformed public.
NPNS!
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:08 pm)If you want to compare a Hyundai and a Volt, go right ahead, but you should use the current models.
As for the price, i have no-doubt, paying 40k for a Volt will provide you with a luxury car equal to 40k in price – GM is not making a lose for no reason at all. this is not an issue for me. i am in this for the idea of not using ANY fuel. the price of the fuel, making it back on savings over the years, or what ever is irrelevant. with the price – I’m getting a luxury car and on the side, i don’t have any fuel bills (electricity aside) – I’m in it for the “electric car” factor.
+1
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:21 pm)They will get their $10K, don’t worry. By GM limiting production to 10,000 cars a year, they just ensured that a $40,000 car just became a $50,000 to $100,000 car. There are enough people out there with lots of disposable cash, willing to pay whatever just to have something new and unique, that GM will sell out in the first year no matter what. The people who are willing to pay these “premiums” are likely not on this blog now and many have no doubt not even heard of the Volt yet. I guess it’s convenient for GM to have the early adopters to be “A” listers, but once the word hits the street that this fantastic new technology that the government ordered and paid for is for elites only and has almost nothing to do with saving the environment or reducing foreign oil dependence, but rather green washing and creating a halo effect GM, there will be backlash.
The thing is, the people are now sceptically watching the new Government Motors and if it’s not for the people by the people, there is going to be Hell to pay in the press. I believe that GM should reign in dealers by making MSRP a requirement of being a certified Voltec dealer and then distributing the cars by lottery if they have to. Better yet would be to ramp up production to actual demand as fast as possible so everybody can have one without more waiting. In other words, make good on the stated intention of bringing the electrification of the automobile to market.
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:25 pm)I just thought of another idea that might be helpful toward decision-making for Voltec production ramp-up.
Here it is:
How about a financial mechanism like a pre-arranged escrow account tool or a pre-arranged escrow-deposit-line-of credit-reserve “letter of credit to GM from Volt customer”, where your financial institution could send something similar to a “letter of credit”, but instead, it would be a “letter of escrow-credit-line reserved-specifically-and-solely-for-Voltec purchase”.
I also had in mind something like what might be the equity in your own vehicle also as something that might go toward that “credit reserves advisory for GM”, if it was one of those vehicles that keeps lots of its value.
That way, there could be this very highly- definitive and seriously-committed “pre-concerted financial instrument”
where GM management could more easily gauge how well-funded future demand might become for Voltec vehicles VERY WELL IN ADVANCE of next Summer, say, and, perhaps cause accelerated approvals from various agencies for “go-ahead” to produce not only more Volts, but the Converj as well. (I just do not at all believe that the cost of gasoline will have very much, if anything at all, to do with complete Voltec sellouts.)
These sorts of financial tools might be a way to improve much of the logistics in our purchasing Voltec vehicles next year and the year after.
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:29 pm)I didn’t quite understand “Comparing Generation I of a new technology to Generation IV of an older technology is not valid comparison of the technologies. Regardless of the time period.” We can compare current technology for each producer, So this is exactly what needs to be done. Saying one is old tech and the other is new tech is a bit misplaced. Its either better or it is not (figurative speaking); old and new is irrelevant. The Prius technology (the fundamentals) is 10 years old, but the volts was present in the EV1 during production; but this really does not matter. Comparing the technology is not at issue. Its comparing the current models efficiency to display oil consumption as a whole. The Prius will shift 500k units, the volt will shift 10k units in the first year of Volt distribution– these sales will replace other car sales which we presume use much more oil. So you tell me which one will ultimately displace the most oil?
irrespective of a car being mass produced at sustainable levels due to losses, the latest versions of each should be compared as that is what is on offer. perhaps I don’t understand the term “mass produced” as to me, this means made in quantity for the masses (though this actually is irrelevant to the argument). Gen 1 will see at least 10k first year 2011 ramping up to anything like 50 to 100k units – is this mass produced?
The PS3 was initially made and sold at a loss, but I’d say it was mass produced (I’m still not sure if it is sold at a profit). The tech inside teh PS3 is arguable much better/different to the X-box 360 which used standard components and was produced at a profit when the PS3 came into production. Are you saying we should not compare the 2 because the PS3 was not on its own merit returning a profit so it should have been compared to the original X-box?
If you want to compare the Volt gen 2, go right ahead, but compare it with the available product form another manufacture at the time. You can’t say Toyota will sell 500k Prius units but add “let’s pretend they are Prius version 1 for comparison sakes, as the Volt gen 1 is not being mass produced”.
If the volt were to come out tomorrow:
1) Volt gen 1 is what is available, as is the Prius 4.
2) Mass produced or not, compare what the overall displacement of fuel will be due to sales of both.
The” Volt numbers x displacement” vs “Prius 4 numbers x displacement” will determine the overall displacement winner.
So I respectfully disagree. I will still get my Volt, but I respectful disagree in how you compare technology. Taking current models and compare those.
Aug 27th, 2009 (10:32 pm)What suckers the Japanese must think we are – using our taxpayers money to pay for sales of their cars.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE57P5C220090826
I just want to throw up.
-1
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:09 pm)Steel,
Putting up straw men, are you?
Where did I say the Prius was the “biggest?” I said it was classified as mid-size by the EPA based on interior volume. This is true. I also pointed out that the Volt will seat only 4. This is true.
By the way, Ford has done an excellent job with the Fusion. Go compare the Prius interior room to the Malibu. The Prius actually is bigger inside in some dimensions. Clearly, the Prius is midsize. Unless you’d like to reclassify the Malibu as a compact?
The Volt might be “Gen I” of a technology where the Prius is “Gen IV” but that is a matter of opinion. The Volt will be GM’s third attempt at a hybrid, therefore it’s Gen III of their hybrid technology. The first two GM attempts, by the way, were pathetic losers that don’t sell and some have already been cancelled.
If you look at GM’s hybrids as an extension of Lutz’ “halo” ideas, hybrid cars that don’t sell make perfect sense. Of course, that leaves us with no reason to expect anything useful from the Volt, either.
-2
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:32 pm)So, GM’s ambition, after all these years, is to produce 2/3 as many unique high-tech cars as Toyota did in 1998, the first full year of Prius production?
I’m just a little bit underwhelmed.
And… let’s be realistic. The Prius was the first mass-produced gas-electric drivetrain ever. In 1998. The Volt is a conceptually simpler gas-electric drivetrain. At the tail end of 20010. Probably. Only 12 years later. When there’s several other gas-electric vehicles on the market, including two by Ford and two basic types from GM itself.
So the Volt is an also-ran leaping to market a mere 12 years after Toyota and 5 or 6 years after Ford. Hooo-boy. The “leadership” just never slows down at GM, does it?
Aug 27th, 2009 (11:56 pm)Don’t buy or lease any new GM vehicle.
You have no idea how much you are preaching to the choir. We are after all all nursing our clunkers along till we can buy a Volt. Hopefully on July 4th to celebrate our independence from foreign oil!
As for your point about not dealing with companies the government had bailed out, that would be problematic. Let’s see, no more personal banking at Northern Trust. Not good. They’re really nice people. No more business banking at Citi. That’s really no good because Citi is something of a one stop bank for international transactions. No more trips to the local hospital. Not sure I’d want to sign up for that. Nor more sending the kids to the local school. That would be OK — the kids aren’t in public school any more. How about food stuff? Didn’t the government bail out farmers to the tune of $180B in 2002? I’m already getting hunger pangs missing my whole wheat bread in the morning!
Aug 28th, 2009 (1:59 am)Deteriorate???? I thought things were looking up…NPNS
Aug 28th, 2009 (2:01 am)I’m not a lawyer but have some familiarity with franchise law in general. Those laws are meant to protect the franchisee’s rights. The franchiser is often out of state and the “larger” party. They are the party of strength but not necessarily the one with finsncial exposure in the relationship or have relatively little exposure. That said, their can certainly be terms for pricing rules that set end user pricing, e.g. Saturn. These have to be within reason and might be difficult to add if the franchisee can show this causes undue hardship. The franchiser is aloud to protect their own interest to a degree and set goals/standards for the franchisee to adhere to. Most contracts have renewal terms and termination terms as well as terms for amending.
These laws have nothing to do with consumer price protection. Is this really what we want for discretionary purchasing anyway in our free market economy? What makes you think moving the price control from the dealer to GM is going to ensure price protection for the consumer even if we wanted price protection? If GM retained ownership through to the sale, I’m sure they could ultimately control the final price without violating franchise law. They do publish and post a fixed MSRP on every new car. What more consumer protection do we need?
Aug 28th, 2009 (2:04 am)How ironic, to turn to whole process around and teach it at Sloan,
Aug 28th, 2009 (2:17 am)The Volt, to my knowledge, is a product to be made by a for profit entity and to be sold by for profit entity. Yes, many people are excited by the prospect of it’s ability to dratically decrease gasoline consumption. The government has recognized this and has setup rebates to encourage the entry of cars like this into the market but how far do you want the control to go.
Certainly, charging premiums over MSRP could be a bad business decision for a dealer but since they are the ones “at risk”, it is their decision to make.
Aug 28th, 2009 (2:41 am)It matters not how many Prii are/were sold vs the Volt. The are additive elements in the fuel reduction equation. If we are talking about a gas consumption equation it would be important to note that today’s Prius will count ~3 times as much on average (50k Volts = 150k Prii).
Aug 28th, 2009 (2:59 am)Hopefully it’s not derived from the same predictive spreadsheets they have used in the past for other models.
Aug 28th, 2009 (3:08 am)Perhaps there was something in Mr. Weber’s wry smile.
Aug 28th, 2009 (4:28 am)i think you have missed the bulk of the argument which relies heavily on the number of expected units which will be sold (despite your saying “it does not matter how many Prii will be sold”:
One more time: If you sell 500k Prius (50mpg) displacing purchases of other cars which consume 40 mpg (which is much higher than the average), or you sell 10k volts (using nothing but electricity) displacing that many 40 mpg cars. The overall effect is less petrol will be used with the sale of the 500k Prius.
if we sold 500k volts, sure you are correct, but only 10k units will be sold in 2011, were as 500k Prius will be sold.
your own argument is 3 prius = 1 volt. so if 500k Prius are sold, how may Volts are needed? before you say 166,666 units, remember you are capped at 10k units! so the Prius will save more on foreign fuel for 2011.
Aug 28th, 2009 (7:54 am)I didn’t mean you shouldn’t deal with companies the Government has bailed out. I meant you shouldn’t deal with companies dangling future carats while pushing old junk. I bet the next incentive will be “Customer appreciation Deal!”
“Volt initially available to owners of 2009 and 2010 GM vehicles.”
NPNS!
Aug 28th, 2009 (8:04 am)That, (and cost), is why I buy my Hondas used. It is also why I will buy my Volt used…….
Aug 28th, 2009 (8:08 am)Person B is a fool if they don’t shop around and check prices for the car. I mean wouldn’t you check the internet and look at other dealerships before buying a car? Remember, “..a fool and his money…..”
Aug 28th, 2009 (8:22 am)“Don’t tase me bro” … excelent reference LMAO!!!!!
Aug 28th, 2009 (8:39 am)I don’t think that getting a Chevy Volt will be easy at all…period.
Aug 28th, 2009 (9:05 am)You think someone who points out facts is a “troll.” Too funny.
Here’s a fact for you. With the exception of Wagoner, the same team that put GM on the rocks is the same team that’s running GM right now.
How do you spell “success?” S-A-M-E-O-L-D-S-A-M-E-O-L-D?
Aug 28th, 2009 (10:31 am)Honda’s plan looks like sheer genius, next to GM’s plan.
GM’s plan (with persons responsible):
- Draw picture of car on paper napkin (Lutz).
- Draw lightning bolts around it (Lutz).
- Take wild-ass guess at cost (Lutz).
- Call press conference and announce “revolution” (Lutz).
- Vacation in St. Moritz (Lutz).
- Sweat the details (Engineers in powertrain, manufacturing and Chevy divisions).
+1
Aug 28th, 2009 (10:35 am)We probably have a lot more in common with each other than we would care to admit. We are a strange group, but it is all good.
Aug 28th, 2009 (10:48 am)Tag:
Yeah, it got poor Jimbo in a lot of hot water at the time if I remember right. Hey, it’s either that or “Charles Manson”, LOL.
Aug 28th, 2009 (10:50 am)I tried that, but then I ran out, LMAO!
Aug 28th, 2009 (10:56 am)Noel,
I’d rather not go there (either place, lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-1
Aug 28th, 2009 (11:57 am)God, your an idoit.
Aug 28th, 2009 (12:25 pm)On Comparing Technology
Generation I and Generation II of the Prius were not better than Diesel cars. Many Diesel cars were more efficient (in most conditions), cheaper, better driving, better looking… the list goes on. Prius was less polluting, but overall it was inferior.
Should Prius and other Hybrids have never been produced because Generation I was inferior to Diesel? Should people have stood around and said “Well VW has done more because its Diesel over 20 years have reduced pollution”
No. This clearly doesn’t make any sense in hindsight. Yet, that is what you are doing to the Volt.
When you choose to consume a product, you should consume on your personal assignment of value of a product. No doubt. And I firmly think that if your in need of a car today, the Gen III or Gen IV Prius make excellent choices.
“The” Volt numbers x displacement” vs “Prius 4 numbers x displacement” will determine the overall displacement winner.”
::Rolls eyes::
VW/Audi’s 1.8 TDI engine has displaced more fuel over its existence than the Hybrid Synergy drive. Also in each individual year of the Hybrid Synergy Drive’s existence….
As to your PS3 versus Xbox 360 arguement. Your analogy is confusing. Xbox 360 might be better compared to PS2. Which is lucky for the Xbox 360 since its first 2 minor versions were terrible (~50% failure rate apparently and ~25% “Double” failure rate). However, thats a bit blurred since Microsoft for -years- has developed gaming systems (albiet not hardware).
I think more like this
Betamax versus VHS. Betamax technology was better, and everyone said it was better. But VHS provided more -value- than Betamax, so VHS won. Technology wise though, Betamax was still better and I think in the 1990s people probably would have preferred Betamax to have been further developed over VHS.
Aug 28th, 2009 (12:36 pm)“Where did I say the Prius was the “biggest?””
Where did I say you said this?
I simply calculated the individual cars Interior Volume Index and made the a conclusion. Yes on Interior Volume Index, the Prius is a “Midsize” and larger than a Fusion. Except the Interior Passenger Volume is almost 7% smaller than a Fusion…. hard to call that Midsize when the Fusion is barely midsize itself.
Malibu is a small passenger interior volume Midsize. Still its 5% larger than a Prius. Prius doesn’t run at all with the midsize class. Camry, Accord, Altima, Fusion, Mazda6, Passat, S80. All of these cars are much much larger than a Prius. This doesn’t make the Prius a bad car, but ingoring the distortion caused by the 21.6 cubic feet of luggage space is stupid. Under the same rules, the Volt will also likely be a “Midsize Car”
-1
Aug 28th, 2009 (6:32 pm)-37. Is that a record?
And for what? For pointing out that the car is not in production? That it’s a year away from production? Over a year, in fact?
Weber may be doing a good job on this car. But GM is waaaay behind the curve. Their current hybrids don’t sell and it appears they lose money on them. The Volt is, to put it mildly, fiscally challenged. After a $7500 gift from Uncle Sam, it’s the same price as a Lexus.
There’s no “catbird seat,” here. At least, not yet. And there won’t be until the Volt is a proven commerical, PROFITABLE success. And there’s no profit whatever at a volume of 10K per year. At 60K per year, profit is extremely doubtful.
And the Volt is going to be facing more and more competition, very rapidly, after its introduction. It might be the only E-REV but the rest of the market could swamp it with BEVs and PHEVs and other vehicles.
Aug 28th, 2009 (6:39 pm)VHS and Betamax had little to do with inherent value and everything to do with licensing strategy.
And VHS and Betamax were contemporaries. The Volt trails the Prius (the pioneer in gas-electric drive) by 12 years. Its volume will be negligible through 2014 or so, and Toyota can expand HSD’s electric capability, easily and cheaply, to beat back the challenge. Toyota has economies of scale and can move to cut off the Volt while making a profit. Losses are not a luxury that GM can afford.
Moreover, there are other competitors announcing and even shipping product today and before the Volt.
The Volt is an also-ran.
Aug 28th, 2009 (6:41 pm)steel wrote, “Yep the 2010 Prius is the “Biggest” of the Lot.”
I interpreted that as sarcasm. If ti wasn’t, your intention isn’t at all clear. Maybe you should rewrite and resubmit that post.
steel writes, “Prius doesn’t run at all with the midsize class.”
The EPA thinks otherwise. Too bad for you.
Aug 28th, 2009 (6:42 pm)steel writes, “We can agree this (Lutz) is not the best source in the world since he is not in charge of the Volt or Volt pricing.”
In fact, Lutz, at one time, asserted that he was in personal control of the project. Did his ADD kick in and his attention was diverted elsewhere?
+3
Aug 28th, 2009 (6:46 pm)If you’re going to tell someone he’s an idiot, try to get the grammar and spelling right. It has more impact that way.
+1
Aug 28th, 2009 (7:16 pm)The key here is battery size. All of the other gas electrics, including GMs previous hybrids, have relatively tiny batteries when compared to the Volt.
Aug 28th, 2009 (11:01 pm)Sorry to be blunt, but I understood perfectly the arguments. I just felt they are a bit childish and misguiding (similar to misguided but subtly different). It is not a good/bad or right/wrong scenario, but rather 2 goods. What is the point of trying to contrast the society benefits of 2011 poduction volumes?
Again, I’ll repeat, it is not an either scenario. Both companies will independently produce and sell their vehicle. Chevy plans to produce ~10k 2011 Volts regardless of what Toyato does with Prius. Likewise, Toyota has production volume plans regardless of Chevy’s Volt plans. Whatever each volume of each vehicle is sold will work together in raising the national fleet mpg.
My point is that each Volt sold will produce the equivalent benefit of 3-4 non-plug Prii. I wish there could be 400k Volts to go along with 400K Prii in 2011, but that won’t and cannot happen. So what? That doesn’t deminish the benefit of each Volt sold or detract from the longer term benefits of the Volt program.
Aug 29th, 2009 (4:24 am)You are absolutely correct, both are better than one. The argument was however childish – which one will have the bigger impact. Obviously it is the Prius because of numbers. This is what I was pointing out when argument to the contrary was made. For the environment, combined, there is an even greater benefit.
From a company point of view, a sale to Prius is not a good thing for GM as its a potentially lost sale. Capping production simply pushes people to the enemy and boosts profits for them allowing for more investment (by them). Truth be told, neither company cares about the environment unless its good for sales. a company is a creature devoted to returning the best profit for their share holders- this is their fiduciary duty, the environment is only a consideration of regulations, and public image to assist in the profit taking.
Aug 29th, 2009 (2:09 pm)Ok why not make life a little interesting, how about a lottery, to show your serious a ten grand deposit to enter the lottery to purchase a new Volt, and for those of us who don’t win we get our deposit back but we get put on the list for the next production run. Any other ideas out there??
Sep 1st, 2009 (1:59 pm)By the time the Volt actually becomes available for purchase, it will be an obsolete $40,000 curiosity. Seems like no matter how hard they try, assuming they really are trying, GM just can’t seem to make it past “we came really close this time”.
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