AND 
Getting an Early Chevy Volt in 2010 Won’t be Easy
Its hard to believe, but we are actually drawing close to the day the first saleable Volts roll off the production line in November 2010.
Recently the DOE announced a $30 million grant for GM to use to release a test fleet of 500 Chevy Volts to consumers, and 125 to commercial entities. GM has not officially indicated their specific plans about this keeping it rather coy.
I had the chance to briefly ask Volt executive Frank Weber about it.
He said the grant, “means when we do our development activities with charging infrastructure activities and vehicles and provide test data that we will make available to the DOE, they can learn from the vehicle to understand how the vehicles operate.”
Asked specifically if these cars would be distributed prior to November 2010, he said “it is part of rolling it out for Nov 2010.”
Pressing for more specifics as to whether it would before or after November 2010 he said “its (both) coming to November 2010 and after November 2010.”
Understanding that to mean some cars would be released prior to November 2010, and undeterred, I asked specifically “Will consumers get into those cars before Nov 2010?” At that point Weber looked at me wryly, smiled, and said nothing.
You can take that anyway you want, but don’t say I didn’t try.
Some sources are suggesting that the Volt production run for 2010 will be extremely limited anyway. According to Automotive News, “GM plans to build only 200 to 400 cars in November and December 2010, as 2011 models.”
They also report GM will build just 10,000 copies during the entire year of 2011.
It is also clear GM will limit roullout geographically.
So no matter how you cut it, assuming you can afford it, getting an early Volt won’t be easy.
August 27th, 2009 at 6:17 am
…and thus the progamming of unit Weber has clearly been successful
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:18 am
These guys:
http://www.jeffbelzer.com/ou/lakeville-chevrolet-dodge-kia/
were taking Volt orders as of last week or so. No firm quote on the MSRP and they want $10K down and they are charging a $10K premium. Call and ask if they have any slots left.
Also, no firm date.
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:19 am
I never figured on getting an early one anyway, but Lyle I don’t think you have anything to worry about!
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:22 am
Just a few hundred in 2010 and only 10K in 2011…
No surprise there. People who have been paying attention instead of indulging in fantasies have known this for a while.
If you want fuel-efficient transportation, Toyota’s planning to build 500K Priuses this year. It shouldn’t be too hard to get one of those.
While people have been waiting for the Volt, Toyota’s been doing their best to reduce oil consumption.
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:24 am
I would love to be part of the 500.
But it doesn’t look like I will be eligible for getting one of the early models, geographically speaking.
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:26 am
Can you say 2012 or 2013 for me (Seattle)? – This sucks as GM is too slow to get the product to the market giving the consumer more choices from competitors. The Tesla model S will be here sooner than the Volt or the 2 Mode SUV.
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:43 am
I don’t mind if Lyle gets a low serial number Volt.
If statik gets one, that is a different story………………
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:45 am
Rashiid:
Tell me about it. I am in Youngstown, OH – not known for getting anything first………..
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:46 am
I was sure hoping the Lyle’s list would have a tiny bit of pull in getting some of that first year’s production to us………..
Come on Lyle! – Work your magic!!!!
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:49 am
Weber, as God made him, is exactly what GM needed to develop the Volt. I enjoy his pleasure of being in the catbird seat after all his amazing work.
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:49 am
WHAT A DEAL!!!!
Give us $10K. We will get you a care sometime, and for some price. Oh, and by the way, that $10K is for us…….
Thanks, but no thanks!
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:49 am
“..programming of unit Weber…”
—————————
That’s hilarious.
As to the production plans, no surprise. And, when they say 10K in 2011, precedent says that most will come in the latter part of that year. It’s OK, just takes a while when it is really new.
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:57 am
They should give him a pink one! with Robin Egg Blue Dots all over it
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August 27th, 2009 at 6:57 am
(click to show comment)
August 27th, 2009 at 7:00 am
The Volt will be make a more significant reduction in oil consumption, when comparing a single Prius to a single Volt.
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August 27th, 2009 at 7:13 am
If I were Toyota so would I. The writing is on the wall and they know it. The Volt and Volteck will be the cars to own and Toyota needs to make as much money now to fund their catch up program.
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August 27th, 2009 at 7:14 am
I totally agree. I have been watching this site for some time now and decided to start chiming in.
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August 27th, 2009 at 7:14 am
Nothing new here.
BTW, from what i’m told the Flint engine plant tear out is complete. Now to prep & install new equipment. Unfortunately my “inside guy” didn’t get this install contract, so I wont get any details on what’s going on
aahhhh progress.
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August 27th, 2009 at 7:14 am
Nor I as I live in/near a small town in NC.
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August 27th, 2009 at 7:15 am
but there is no single Volt sale for a single Prius sale. That is Dagwood55’s rather valid point.
I’m not surprised at the small amount of Volts to be produced as Gen 1. We all know GM will be losing money and they are not a charity (for the moment, they take money, not give it)
When gen 2 is finalized and the Volt can at least break even, then production can increase. They might as well have held out till 2012 before releasing the Volt as Gen 2, but any sales of Gen 1 is good publicity.
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August 27th, 2009 at 7:17 am
Limited availability…..hmmmm.
I wonder if GM’s security at Milford is really up to snuff.
Security Guy: “Back away from the Volt!”
Tresspasser: “Don’t Tase Me Bro!”
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August 27th, 2009 at 7:25 am
Hey, I just came back from North Carolina.
What small town do you live in? We weren’t too far from Asheville.
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August 27th, 2009 at 7:27 am
I perfectly understand GM caution about production volumes and introduction dates.
When you release a new vehicle to the market, as a company what you always fear the most – only after product’s unsuccess – is failure on the field. Ever heard of warranty costs? I think you did.
Imagine 100k Volts sold globally over 2011 (assuming 100k customers available
). What would you do, as GM, if a Volt had a failure in, say, Bangladesh, or Saudi Arabia, or South Africa? (I picked up Countries quite randomly, in fact…). Well, I guess the existing GM car service network would have *some* troubles in reparing a car like the Volt. So, would you leave you dear beloved early adopters, that paid quite a sum to get their first E-REV, with a beautiful but broken Chevy Volt, with no hint when the car could hit the road again? Mmm…
Selling the Volt initially only on the domestic US market and in low volumes would certainly allow for a more controllable situation, that could potentially spare GM a mountain of warranty costs, whatever the warranty will be. Sending a technician on-site in the US will cost much less than sending him out to… wherever else!
Just think of the troubles many standard vehicles normally experience after launch; do you really expect GM to be relaxed when releasing such an innovative (i.e. different) product as the Volt to the market?
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August 27th, 2009 at 7:34 am
koz,
That was a screaaaaam!!!!!! Thanks for waking me up the rest of the way with that one!
I am sure Mr. Weber is also laughing to the point of tears!
Lyle, thanks so much for your exquisite technical tenaciousness.
No-one else has that who is so well-placed for us!!!
GM ought to sub-out contracting for you all during the entire life cycle of Volt your work is so valuable.
(Off to work. Have a great day all!!)
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:03 am
I’m guessing that South Carolina will not be a “priority” rollout area.
Bummer.
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:06 am
If only 10k Volts will be product during the entire year of 2011, it looks to me like GM is planning to start mass producing using “gen 2″ technology. By then, the price will be much lower with better technology by that time—–but I don’t like the wait.
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:15 am
How does one let GM know that I would volunteer my time and effort to report all effects of the Volt on my commute and be willing to promote with any image of myself, house, etc. as necessary.
Ah, hmmm…..27 miles one way to work, 20amp 110v outlet and reserved space at work….Jacksonville FL……needing new car to replace ‘01 Prius 135000 miles….hint…hint…#1984 on the Lyle list…..hint hint hint
Zel
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:16 am
Jim I
Although I know what you mean about statik, he’s been a really valuable member here and probably has a lot of the qualities that would make him a good candidate of maybe a “quality control” vehicle.
GM would be sure to get a LOT of feedback from him (g).
Just a thought,
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:19 am
But I’d fly to Calif to pick one up! Just drive it home. (I’m hoping for a NYC release).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:20 am
“Under-promise, over-deliver”.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:21 am
In the spectrum of things, where do all of us fit that are in the original ten thousand that signed up for the Volt when this all started ? Many of us have been with this sight sence its inception,
so I guess we are left at the bus stop.
God Bless America,
Tom
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:24 am
Welcome Byron!
I sure hope Lyle has some magic to work! If you take the article at face value the one date on which no Volts will be released is Nov. 10, 2010 (they will be released before and after that date). I know, I know, “check your meds, Tag” (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:26 am
I think slow roll out also allows the training of techs.
one must remember that the Voltec platform is TOTALLY new..not afield repair tech at ANY GM knows what they need. they’ll train a couple dozen, and they’ll tell 2 friends, and so on and so on, until every dealership has a t least ONE trained teck..which amounts to 5-6000 in North America alone…that is a HUGE training issue.
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:31 am
The problem might be getting it fixed, Tag.
If there is a CA release, and the car dies where you live, what are you going to do when no one is trained in your area? You might be screwed for a period of time.
Expanding on that thought, I suppose this could happen to anyone.
If the release is in CA, and a CA person bought the Volt and took it on a cross country trip, they would be as screwed as you would be.
I wonder if GM will set up some rules for the early adopters.
No driving out of service area, or something like that.
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:33 am
kdawg,
Good to know about the tear-out. Sorry your buddy missed out. Without statik’s data mining it’s tough to know the specifics (other than from Lyle).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:35 am
It’s quite likely that we won’t here any of the real world performance information on the volt that would at least allow for the possibility of product viability until 2011:
Real world AER city
Real world AER Hwy
Real world mpg in CS mode city
Real world mpg in CS mode Hwy
Any issues with power fade
Then, the really big viability issue comes up . .. cost.
GM can likely stretch this limited production vehicle out to 2014 or 2015 before it becomes completely obvious whether the Volt can ever compete for volume sales (i.e. at least below $30,000).
!Catbird seat, indeed!
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:35 am
Exp_eng,
I’m right behind you bro (lol) Maybe if everyone in the waiting list rushed the place, all wearing our Volt T-shirts…. (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:38 am
joe,
I don’t like to wait either, but it will be over 3 YEARS we’ve been waiting. AS I type that, another year doesn’t seem tooooo bad (yes it does, I’m lying).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:44 am
Rashiid,
I agree with the second premise, but I don’t know how GM could do other than “suggest” staying in an area. It could be like your cell phone going “outside service area” = costs more. Maybe they’d tow you to the nearest GM dealer who has received training? Another reason to limit the roll-out numbers. SIGH.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:46 am
#974 on the list… Really enjoying my 2010 Fusion Hybrid…Still waiting for my Volt but don’t expect it to land in Cnetral Alberta Canada til 2013 or later… And I will be keeping the Fusion as it seats 5.. is a bigger car and right now is averaging 52 MPG (Canadian)..
GM… I could do comparison testing for you as I already have a hybrid .
What do ya say?
All types of climate here… I drive 50 – 250 KMs every day . All types of roads…
The perfect choice for the rollout testers..
Call me…
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:51 am
GM will send a technician out to where you are, I think, at great expense. It will be a learning opportunity at the local dealership and your Volt will be disassembled and put together again several times
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:51 am
I drive past the proving grounds in Milford every day. That should put me at the top of the list. Right? ;>)
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Toyota will follow soon. they still have several years before the Volt even begins to make a dent in their sales. 500k vs 10k in 2011 (projected)… hmmm, not to mention the price difference.
As much as i want the Volt myself, it is obvious 40k vs 22k is a fair difference in price. yes the Volt is high tech, uses less/no fuel, but what can people afford? If the volt can come down in price, so can the Prius.
Personal, I’ll be buying a Volt as soon as it hits Australian streets, but I can’t ignore the fact that before the Volt is a real threat to Toyota, Toyota will already have had 5+ years to catch-up (if they are not doing so already). The Volt will be first, but the quantities are so low, it won’t make a difference to Toyota for some time to come – provided Toyota do nothing about it.
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Herm,
As long as I get to watch, I’m good with that. Sick, sick, sick (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Real world AER city
Real world AER Hwy
Real world mpg in CS mode city
Real world mpg in CS mode Hwy
Any issues with power fade
………………………
The funny thing is that every single driver will get different numbers for all that stuff that you are interested in.. the only way for YOU to find out what you would get would be to buy one. All those numbers are driver dependent.
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Starcast,
Yep, you should. Got a room to rent? If I set up residence now….
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 8:59 am
What catch-up program? Toyota’s in the lead. Their car can be modified into a PHEV whenever they like the price of a large battery. All the development is done. They’ve also got regular EVs in the works and let’s not forget who’s the leader in EVs in the US today: Toyota. There’s still about 400 Rav4-EVs on the road today. That’s about as much as GM’s 2010 Volt production.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:00 am
And they thought the EV-1 fanatics were high-maintenance!
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Koz, your hunch about “unit Weber” is actually very close to reality. Although Frank may not know exactly why he is so “driven”, he should know that in physics a Weber is a unit of magnetic flux, and that a change in flux of one Weber per second will induce an electromotive force of one Volt!* How’s that for a coincidence?
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weber_(unit)
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Rashild,
I used to live in Asheville. Beautiful country there. Can’t wait to get back some day and buy plenty of land east of town in Black Mountain, NC.
Hopefully you were on vacation.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Realistically, it will be another 3 YEARS after Nov 2010 before most of us have a shot … if GM can last that long against a flood of Volt misinformation, and bad feelings over “Government Motors.”
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:05 am
GM should slam down HARD on this sort of crap.
I’m talking about pulling their franchise and no second chances hard.
This Jeff Belzer is a thief if this is true.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:07 am
Hmmmm, Independence Day 2010 is “before Nov 2010″……
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:07 am
Lyle, you are becoming the 60-minutes of blogging! Great job
With 50k of us on ‘the list’ and only 500 gov’t sponsored Volts, odds aren’t looking good. It is likely that these 500 are off the top of the production run which will kill our odds even more.
I have been lucky before though…
Give me a VIN to post with!
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:07 am
GM should get the capacity of 100000 units per quarter capacity by 2012 and that would make the company more competitive.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:08 am
Get real, Toyota isn’t interested in reducing oil consumption anymore than any other big business. They are only interested in making money and unlike GM, they saw the attraction that the Prius was going do for their image and sales. As Bob L. has already said, even if a buyer didn’t purchase a Prius, for a lot of people the Prius brought them onto Toyota’s lot and a sale was made anyway. The only reason that Toyota is now considering producing other types of hybrids is again for the money. They see how much attention GM is creating with the Volt and want in on it. What big business wouldn’t?
As for only producing 10K Volt’s in 2011, GM had better get on the ball. By the time they fully ramp up, others will certainly be in the game.
My only chance is that I’m in Dallas and we may see a few Volt’s arrive here.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Nice try baiting Statik but apparently he did not take it, for sure you would have thought that would have got his gord. Why do we do it Statik? Because we miss you! We will keep trying, you have an Achilles heel some where.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Just do the test cycles/formula for 2008 epa standards. You know, like they do here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
that’s real world enough.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:10 am
This is true for the Plug-In Prius; but that won’t be a Volt. It won’t be all-electric at every speed; and it must use gasoline.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:10 am
# 15 – Ray
How in the world did you get a Fusion Hybrid ? My dealer called me and they were lucky enough in a dealer drawing to have one shipped to them. It was sold before it was unloaded from the carrier.
Glad to hear you like it, I have an Escape and will be trading it for the 2010 Hybrid Escape.
Tom
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Congratulations Lyle on your journalistic efforts! Seems like being a journalist can sometimes be a frustrating occupation. In this case I’m not sure he or anyone else at GM knows for sure what the schedule will be. There are probably some unknowns that need to be worked out. But thanks for trying!
Last November GM was aggressive about the number of Volts it would produce but it has walked backed from that number, going from 60K in 2011 to 10K. In his defense, Fritz Henderson has been saying for a while that he wants to see 12K Volts on the road by 2012, so this is not exactly new.
We have, however, waited ten years since the EV1 so another year or two shouldn’t be that big of a deal. Plus the smart money would be on Gen II. At these very modest production levels GM will not exhaust its 250K allotment for the $7.5K rebate until after Gen II arrives, so those who wait should have a window to get a less expensive car and still get the rebate. Definitely a better deal. As an added bonus they’ll doubtless get a car informed by the learnings from Gen I.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Jackson,
You KNOW you lost me at the word “realistically” (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:17 am
They had 3 on the lot where I purchased mine… and within a 100 KM (60 Mile) radius… there were 12 Fusion Hybrids on the Dealer lots.
I went on line at Ford.ca and “built” my Fusion… then used their dealership network to find out which dealer had it..
As it turned out… it was only a 15 minute drive from my house..
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:18 am
It doesn’t matter if it uses some gasoline. It uses a lot less than a comparable midsize car, a PHEV Prius will use even less and the Prius base price is a LOT less.
And Toyota makes money on them. This gives them the funding for any new products they care to develop.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:22 am
Get real. Lutz is addicted to the heroin of a halo effect. That’s all he sees. That’s all he ever builds and that’s how he sees the Volt, so it WILL be a halo car and nothing more.
Toyota sold 19K Priuses last month. The car gets sold to people who want comfortable, affordable transportation and are willing to pay a small (very small) premium for outstanding fuel economy. That’s not some halo car, that’s a mainstream car. GM didn’t sell that many Malibus and a large chunk of the Malibus they did sell probably went to fleets.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:25 am
I think this is part of the reason that Nissan is going to gain the competitive edge with the Leaf. By being able to push out a larger number, sooner, and at a cheaper price, they will most likely take the leader position in EV technology for the general public. GM will be forced into a catch up roll due to this excruticatingly slow development and rollout period.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Its no suprise that car dealers rank as the number 1 hated profession in most surveys. With stunts like this.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:32 am
That’s more than a little freaky.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:32 am
That’s just the right amount of mean to be really funny!
/we pick on those we like statik… really!
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:35 am
I hate to say it but……
For the price and the driving I do, GM can “Leaf” me alone…
And I don’t even like Nissans however, looks like that’s what I’ll be tooling around in for a while.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Sadly you guys have a point.
Honestly I can’t stop thinking about that 57 mpg BMW 320d…
Also sadly they haven’t announced any plans to bring that to Canada either.
The Prius is just too homely to consider and the Jetta has serious reliablity issues. I grew up in a Chevy family so I have ’some’ reservations about the Fusion (but will look at it anyway).
What’s a consumer to do?
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:36 am
All the talk about GM understandably wants to roll it out slow and cautious. And true if their product is the best one and the best ‘value’ they will beomce the leader.
But this is still a race. I really want to buy American, but if I have to settle for buying American Fuel (electricity instead of Foreign Oil) then I will.
I will buy the first car out there where my fuel savings over first 100,000 miles justifies the purchase.
I’d prefer an SUV.
I expect to drive 20,000 miles a year electric, even if I have to charge at work.
My math is I expect to save $4 (or more) per gallon of gas replaced. So basically I’m willing to pay up to $12,000 premium for a car I can drive 20,000 electric miles per year.
And the way GM is dragging their feet, it might be a RAV4 (Toyota could probably mass produce that by 2012 if they wanted too).
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:37 am
Don, I’m not a patient person but what you say about 250K allotment of $7.5K and waiting for Gen II sure makes a lot of sense. Even more since I’ve managed to reduce my annual mileage to 4000 ish miles by telecommuting more.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:39 am
You have a good point there – whether you were trying to make it or not. If GM crushes THIS one, they’re up sh** creek. Too many people want it to become reality this time.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:40 am
Did anybody say that making money is easy! well maybe so with the government providing it. Another big grant of 30 million dollars to get some vehicles out to the public so they can actually see them. Um! easy money ~ if we can just get the public to believe that this is really, really hard to get these public paid vehicles out!
Possible it would help getting them out in “Early” 2010 or was it “Early Volts” out in 2010 if we could just give some big bonuses. that would help get them out, wouldn’t it?
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Maybe, but that’s not why you were a faithful visitor here, anyway.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:45 am
So it is!
I personally will give you 100% of the credit if it happens!
(That and $3.50 will get you a latte’ at Starbucks!)
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:47 am
If GM keeps production volume too low for too long they risk the halo effect that the Volt gives turning into a noose. Public perception:
Now: GM makes gas guzzlers.
Desired with Volt: GM makes cool efficient vehicles.
With low production Volt: GM is conspiring not to sell efficient vehicles.
Of course competitors like Nissan may not get the same bad perception because much of the public likes to beat up on GM.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:50 am
GM has the capability of producing many more Volts in 2011: see this link:
http://www.4wheelsnews.com/chevrolet-volt-production-may-reach-70000-units-per-year-by-2011/
We don’t know what will happen in 2011.
A world crisis could result in Gasoline prices souring above what we saw last year. Also, the demand for the Volt may be higher than currently predicted even without of serious world conflict going out of control. We can all hope that demand will result in GM increasing its planned production.
I am hopeful that GM is ready for just such high demand (without the world crisis).
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Bruce, it’s ONLY an “excruticatingly slow development and rollout period” because for, maybe the first time ever, we get to WATCH as the process happens.
A new platform takes years to get right, just usually you don’t see anything except a few grainy ’spy photos’ until they roll it out at the auto show.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:51 am
2010 will be the first year for this type of car, ever. One would have to compare to the first year of the original Honda Insight that started it all. How long did Toyo put out the Prius before it became profitable?
Yes, the Prius has a role to play in saving gas. However, by positively influencing CARB numbers, each Prius sale allows a Tundra or giant Toyo SUV to be sold. Talk about a halo.
If you were really concerned about saving gas, you would welcome any further advancement of automotive electrification, even in it’s first tentative offering. In fact, you come off more like yet another Toyo fanboy, for whom the whole universe is irreversibly Prius-flavored. You won’t shut the site down. Go somewhere else.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:52 am
That’s what I been talking about for a while. The ridiculous dealer mark up. Maybe E Bay isn’t that bad an idea
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:56 am
If you’re a struggling company, do you leave those $’s on the table?
Lots of interesting factors come into play. If you just need to survive now, then maximize today’s revenue. If not, then maximize the long-run revenue. A great tool for the first case is an auction–say, Ebay (or Stubhub for tickets). For the second case, the existing dealer network because that is more relationship-based, and the dealer would expect a quid pro quo from the customer, such as loyalty on the next car sale, for selling the Volt at a discount.
IMO, it makes a lot of sense to at least initially sell the Volt to the most loyal customers, such as those who also buy a high-margin SUV/truck at the same time as the Volt purchase. 2 birds at one time–survive now and later.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:57 am
I thought that bait was sure to work.
If offered Pink/Robin Egg Blue, Statik would gladly take it and get it in to the shop the same day to get it repainted in jet black.
Ever heard of getting your car “murdered out”?
http://www.murderedoutrides.com/album.php?albumid=69&pictureid=784
If I ever see a Volt looking like that, I’ll know who it is
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:57 am
“That’s more than a little
freakygeeky.”Fixed that for you.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Well said Jackson.
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Hydrogen!
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August 27th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Muddy,
Well thanks! You’re warming the old cockles (as in cockles of my heart). I STILL think that the symbolism is well worth at least a limited release AND it’s less than a year away!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:00 am
It all comes down to GM’s internal costs to build a Volt.
If they can cost reduce enough to at least break even (of course profit is definately better!) then spooling up production will make a lot of sence.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Absolutely true!
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:03 am
You are NOT wrong there!
I’m sure Dan will chime in on this as well!
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:04 am
There we go. In the minds of every carmaker, California = Hybrid sales.
When is anyone (other than the Japanese car makers) going to give the rest of us a chance? (Take note, GM & Ford: I see tons of Priuses around here).
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:08 am
I look for the first Volt to be sold at the Barrett-Jackson auto auction this January in Scottsdale AZ. If you watch that auction (live on Speed channel the 2nd or 3 week in January) you will see the next year GM models. (as well as some Ford and Chrysler stuff but GM is a big sponsor of the auction) 2 years ago they sold the 1st new ZR1 for a Million. Last year they sold the 1st new Camaro for over $600,000. I wonder if the first Volt will bring that kind of money? (proceeds of those sales want to charity by the way)
Note: the person that buys cars at that auction gets the 0001 serial number when the production starts up. They don’t get to drive the car home that day.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Let the Leaves come. The sooner they get here, the more real drivers will experience the joys of range anxiety. Autumn will not be far behind.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Gets a little less freaky when you realize Weber is the 6th most common German surname.
Koz made a funny, . . that’s all. No reason for Volt enthusiasts to get all “transcendentally defensive”.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Yup. I was on vacation. A surprise vacation actually.
I had no idea where I was going until I got there.
It was a gift from my wife for our 16th wedding anniversary.
It was beautiful down there.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:15 am
V=IR
LOL, they are probably thinking “Lord, here we go again!”
There is no way they’d repeat that blunder (and survive).
It ain’t going to happen.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:18 am
No Problem Tag. No kids at home anymore so lot’s of extra room.
Only room for 1 Volt in the garage. My wife will never move her Z28 outside.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:20 am
“the Jetta has serious reliablity issues”
Sigh. So true. If VW could do only two things: fix the reliability issues, and bring the good stuff here, they would take over the world. Sigh.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Tom,
It ain’t necessarily so. Even if Lyle gets one (as he should), the site got it from the concept to the actual wheels on the road! The fact that we were all a part of that may be historic (in the long term).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:22 am
My guess is they will take soooo long that other car company’s will beat them again.
I hope not, but that’s my expectation.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Starcast,
I’ll pay to have 2 220’s right outside the garage (or on your lawn). Look forward to meeting your wife (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:31 am
They can’t. They had one chance to pull franchises with the bankruptcy. But that’s it.
A lot more dealers will be doing this with their volt allocations. Which is why it would be pointless for GM to lower the initial MSRP. At least IMHO.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:34 am
I never expected to get an early version of the Volt unless GM was kind enough to give me one to test for them. I would be most happy to do that. I would even pay something for the privilege of doing it. How much is up in the air. Just like GM’s plan to release the Volt to the public for purchase.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:38 am
From the link:
Simulated Distance 11 mi. 10.3 mi. 8 mi. 3.6 mi. 11 mi.
Simple, no gas on all tests done separately. Even if you run the number of repeat tests the some cycles require, the MPG is still going to be infinite or a HUGE number. Those tests were not developed with an EREV in mind.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:41 am
If that isGM’s plan (to produce most of the 2011 production of 10,000 units late in 2011 or only produce a few hundred for the 2011 model) they are being quite insincere with their following on this site. We all have been led to believe GM would start production in time for a November 2010 release to the public for purchase with production increasing during 2011 so that more units would be produced for the 2012 model year. So, what is the game plan now, GM? Does this throw into question the volume of production as we were led to believe it would be?
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Now that is information well worth knowing. Thanks, Nasaman. I am sure Mr. Weber will find it interesting as well as entertaining.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:52 am
January 18 – 24th by the way. The big $ auctions run on the night of the 23rd.
Great to watch if you are a car person. You see one of a kind, pre-production, rare and prototypes sell. Carol Shelby’s personal Cobra sold for like $5 million 2 years ago.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Good to hear from you Laura!
I have to disagree on this point though, why should thieves be protected?
Do they have some sort of car dealer tenure so they get paid even if they do a terrible job? (I STILL get mad thinking about the incompetent prof’s at the university that will STILL be there because they are unemployable anywhere else.)
There is nothing stopping GM from drawing the line, the price is set, stick to the pricing structure or you will no longer be a dealer.
The new GM NEEDS to have credibility with the customer, bad dealers are the face of the company and they look like thieves to most customers.
The ONLY way this can be fixed is by setting level pricing across the country and enforcing it.
I know people who will NEVER give GM another chance because they were screwed over by a bad dealer.
This is a really big problem.
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August 27th, 2009 at 10:59 am
The problem is that people will remember that cash grab, and will go somewhere else the next time hoping that by some miracle they ‘might’ find a good dealer.
That other dealer will likely sell another brand.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:05 am
It gets here when it gets here. In the meantime, it’s a perfect excuse for me to keep driving our old cars, and not drop a bunch of money on new ones. How that benefits GM, I can’t quite figure out, but it works for me.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Zel:
If you go back and look at old posts, we have been trying that approach for years……
I don’t think it is working.
But hope springs eternal!
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:18 am
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:20 am
This is exactly the kind of dealer rip-off we have discussed in the past to expect with the Volt. I will not ever purchase a Volt or any other vehicle under that type of circumstance. I will walk or ride a bicycle first. Dealers like this should be shunned. Toyota dealers are doing the same kind of premiums for 2010 Prius purchases. Maybe not $10,000, but still it is the same type of rip-off with just a different amount of money.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Are you skipping troll school today?
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:28 am
In fact, do the math…
A midsize car gets about 25mpg, combined.
A Prius gets about 50mpg.
A Volt may get in the neighborhood of 150mpg, effectively (I ran the numbers and, if I were to buy a Volt, I’d get about 70mpg)
A midsize car driven 15K miles per year uses about 600 gallons of gas.
A Prius driven 15K miles per year uses about 300 gallons of gas.
A Volt, if and when it reaches the market, may use about 100 gallons of gas per year.
The Prius saves 300 gallons for every midsize car it displaces in the market.
The Volt will save 500 gallons for every midsize car it displaces in the market (of course, it is just a 4-seat car but let’s pretend it’s midsize).
The Prius effect is the volume of Priuses (500K) tiimes the savings (300 gallons) or 150 million gallons of gas NOT consumed.
The Volt effect is the volume of Volts (10K) times the savings (500 gallons) or 5 million gallons of gas NOT consumed.
Clearly, the Prius has a much greater effect. Considering that Toyota had already sold a million as of last year, it will take the better part of a decade for the Volt to catch up.
And Toyota would have to cooperate by standing still. Fat chance of that.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Somehow I don’t think that would bother Statik that much. A quick paint job and he would be well satisfied. If, and this may be a big if, Statik is ever satisfied about anything. Well, I am sure somethings do satisfy him. But he does deserve to get a Volt – right after I get mine.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Customers will only walk if the product is a commodity. Honda dealers were charging premiums for decades, because of excellent product–product is the key. GM has to keep the hits rolling.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:31 am
I have to completely agree with you on that, Tag. Statik would absolutely give GM all the feedback they could stand. But valid criticism would be good for GM, if they were willing to really listen. And I believe GM has been paying a lot more attention to what our Statik says than what you and I have been saying. Rightly so, too.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:35 am
Hydrogen has worked in the past, but I believe Statik has really taken his pledge to stay off the board very seriously. Much more serious than my decision to lay off for awhile. I did stay off commenting for a week although I continued to read the posts and comments. I think it will take a lot more than hydrogen to get his “goat” and make him “cough-up” a comment. But, yes, we do miss him.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Don’t kid yourself, just as there is a huge market for EREV, there is also a huge market for BEVs. I’m all for both technologies (I’m not sold on either one yet). When used in the context of grocery getter/errard runner/ commuter a BEV will fit well with a large number of the population. Remember GMs own numbers say most of the population drives 40 miles or less each day. If you have a 120 mile BEV that is no problem.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:39 am
It’s an evolution, not a revolution. GM would like to pretend it isn’t so but it’s the truth AND that’s EXACTLY how consumers will see it.
Battery plus gas engine = Prius or close enough to make no difference. That’s the advantage of being the leader and GM has graciously allowed Toyota a 12 year head start in controlling the mind of the market.
Prius initial full year production was somewhere in the neighborhood of 30K vehicles. And that’s about 12 years ago when the idea of a “traction battery” in a car was completely unfamiliar.
Further, Toyota set up internet ordering when the car came to the US. If you wanted one, you signed up and they sent it your way. No geographical rollout malarkey.
By the way, I happened to mention the Volt 230mpg claim to a couple of people who are not terribly into cars and their reaction was “That’s b*llsh*t, what sort of bogus math is GM using now?” They are going to see the Volt as EXACTLY like a Prius.
As for reducing oil consumption, I think it’s extremely important and very urgent, for a variety of reasons, which is why I think 10K units of Volts not due out until 2011 is laughably pathetic. The Prius makes a difference TODAY.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Forget markup you’d have to be a total moron to pay that. I won’t even pay MSRP, as we all know that is a joke as well. I probably won’t be able to own a Volt for a while. But I’m ok with that in exchange for not getting screwed by greedy dealers.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Earlier this year Toyota was projecting a price of over $40,000 for a plug-in Prius. If that holds up, I am not sure there will be a difference between it and the Volt except the Volt will be superior in performance, looks and over-all savings of money and fuel. Anyone who thinks Toyota is going to sell a plug-in Prius for the same price as a regular Prius has a few screws loose in their head. Toyota knows the demand will be high for that type of vehicle by 2012 (when they projected public sales would commence) and they intend to maximize profit from the demand. Nothing new there.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Sorry Tag, but what “qualities” are those? And a LOT of feedback, may not really be quality feedback.
IMHO, there are a lot of more qualified hardware/software types that have been more supportive of this entire project that would make much better test candidates than a quasi financial person.
The feedback that I hope GM is looking for should be more along the lines of:
Here is a problem I have identified. I can consistantly reproduce it under these circumstances. Here is what I have done to try to work around the problem, or to minimize it. When do you need to have the car in the shop to analyze/update/repair it?
Not just: It has to be black, I hate Bob Lutz and his tie, and GM has terrible accountants.
Sorry, but that is how I see it. These test vehicles are supposed to be exactly that, test vehicles. To work out the last few bugs that can only be done by getting vehicles out on the road, and to people that are “willing to work with GM” to make them right before they go into full production.
JMHO
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:46 am
What you should worry about, Dagwood, is tomorrow.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:49 am
You guys should start a website just like the “www.camaro5.com” site where they posted the names of dealers who marked up Camaros $5000 or more as “gougers” (spelling?)…
I can tell you that I have not been able to get confirmation yet if our dealership will even get one VOLT. And as far as markups go, with the potential of such HUGE negative press about this vehicle, I doubt there will be any here. I am recommending against it.
Marking up a sports car designed to BURN plenty of gas is one thing, but marking up one promoted to SAVE $$$ at the pump would be marketing suicide for a dealer.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:50 am
I spent the weekend after Thanksgiving in Black Mountain, NC in 1997. I loved the place. Wonderful scenery with the mountains surrounding the town. Would love to go back some day.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:53 am
GM killed the public rail system.
That alone means they have PLENTY of karma to burn off already.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:54 am
And the way to enforce a no price gouging policy is to have an internet site that list dealers in your area who are gouging and those who are not. GM could even advertise this web site in all Volt advertisements.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:55 am
The Pac NW has a higher percentage of Priuses on the road than California.
They need to send the Volt here
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:56 am
This car is nothing but a big green smokescreen. When it all comes down to it it’s a petroleum burning dirt bucket. When the battery is dead on a long haul then up a steep grade on the mountain highways your 43K car turns into a gokart.
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:56 am
I am sure there will be a healthy initial market for the first practical highway-speed BEV that hits the market (at present, that appears to be the Leaf; but even this could change).
However, IMHO the technology and infrastructure isn’t yet ready to be the sole source of power for a first, or even a second car. In addition to base range (under ideal conditions), there’s the effect of high and low temperatures to consider. The BEV’s range-anxiety could be greatly alleviated by a public charging infrastructure, but a universal one won’t exist for a decade.
The EREV, with at-home and at-business plugs + thousands of existing gas stations = today. The BEV, with the expense and temperature sensitivity of batteries + no public charging = tomorrow (at best).
Nothing will impress these realities upon actual consumers more effectively than a demonstration. Let the Leaf come (and may the Volt be ready).
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Off Topic:
….now electric planes
http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/08/24/the-future-of-airplanes-electricity/?source=yahoo_quote
Powered by lithium polymer batteries, weighing close to a thousand pounds, and sipping about $2.50 worth of electricity per hour of flight, the E430 has completed more than 20 hours in test runs during the last couple months, including one in Camarillo, CA, (at the base of the Conejo Grade).
=D~
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August 27th, 2009 at 11:59 am
I SAY HYDROGEN FUEL CELL FEEDING AN EESTOR AND DRIVING IN STATIK’S NEIGHBORHOOD!!
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
I would like to point out that the 2012 Camaro Convertible is an excellent alternative to the VOLT and will be about the same price (if we’re lucky).
As the song says:
You can’t always get what you want—
But if you try, try, try, sometimes—
You get what you need.
You guys send me an email if you give up on the VOLT.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
As someone who’s built his own lead sled and drove it for a few years, that’s point is spot on.
I got zinged last time I was critical of BEV folks here because I wasn’t nice… but they do annoy me when they come here and bash the EREV.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
All this discussion about the availability of the first true electric car substitute without any restrictions is both mildly depressing and truly exhilarating at the same time
Depressing for the early true-believers to realize that we will have to wait in line for their game-changing Volts. But nonetheless, the tide is inexorable and they are coming.
Exhilarating for all to realize that:
a) the national nightmare of being blackmailed for 40 years is ending, by some unsavory Arabs and Communist Commissars, fortunate enough either to have petroleum in quantity below their sands, or dictators of countries that they have managed to subjugate and now exploit.
b) The costs for waging wars to guarantees supplies, that prevents a Worldwide economic collapse will end.
c) For the true environmentalists, it confirms that Mankind’s brain is not a terminal disease, despite the wailings and prophecies of the modern contrived return of Druidism.
d) Even the crack-headed AGW believers who thinks we have something to fear with oxidized carbon in a few hundred years, and their projections are shown to be as crack-headed as their “Profits” of Doom.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Rashiid
I live about 150 miles east of Asheville, in Salisbury.
I love Asheville is my favorite city in NC. Any chance you visited Biltmore House?
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
All I really want is a usable EREV. GM looks to be in the lead, so I’m a fanboy of getting the Volt out.
But the reality is that I do hate GM…
National City Lines (yep, GM destroyed mass transit rail all over the company)
Killing the EV1
Gubment motors. Us taxpayers have poured more public money into GM that Toyota’s peak market cap!
If someone else beats GM to a mass produced EREV, I’m all the happier.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Now yer talkin’!
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
I personally refuse to step into a Honda dealer, but I see your point.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
You have to admit, GM has been doing the EXACT opposite up to this point.
The price, appearance, range, electric range, and availability of the Volt have all required backtracking. Soon they will do the same for the ICE MPG. Eventually they will need to apologize for the 230 MPG number (as well they should for the way they presented it).
This has been a habit of GM for a long time now. GM hybrid buses, GM hybrid trucks/cars, the Cobalt and now the Cruze. None of them have/will live up to the hype, and they weren’t even in commercials three/four years in advance of their release. There is no real reason to believe that this trend is going to magically reverse, especially in a car such as the Volt which has had more unkowns and more PR than any other GM model I can think of.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
From N Riley to “old man”
If that last one doesn’t draw him out, I don’t know what will! I know he’d travel for Max Bob’s pink tie, but a Volt to match? I don’t think so. YELLING about a hydrogen driven EStor really should have done it. SIGH.
HYDROGEN TO INFINITY!
I can picture static reading this and his wife asking:
“Honey, why are you singing LALALALALA with your fingers in your ears?”
Maybe if Lyle had the keys (or fob) to a second IVER and dangled them, he’d “bite”.
I still think he’d be a great preproduction tester including the ones mentioned by Jim I above (ahem, as do I). We always need balance. JMO
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
The training actually began about 3 years ago actually. A series of new electrical and electronics courses from Raytheon, then numerous classes on the BAS and 2-Mode hybrids. The classes on the 2-modes really have a lot of application to the Volt. There is really only small differences in the hardware used and just slightly higher source voltage levels (360V vs. 288V) but from a safety and process perspective very similar. So there is already at least one possibly two trained “2-mode” technicians in most Chevy dealerships. (not all Chevy dealers are “2-mode” dealers but that might change)
What they really lack is just plain old experience, as the 2-modes haven’t had a lot of issues and their numbers are not all that significant as of yet (e.g.. it appears only around 1000 GM hybrids were sold in July) But sales of them ARE increasing, especially in the lower cost pick-ups. The 2-mode pickup is now less than $4000 more than a comparably equipped Silverado XFE. It is expected that training on the Volt will begin in the Q:1 2010 in the form of CBTs from Raytheon, but actual “hand’s on” training probably wont commence until some of the first early production units roll off the line sometime in Q:3 or even Q:4 of 2010.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
@Mitch
The training actually began about 3 years ago actually. A series of new electrical and electronics courses from Raytheon, then numerous classes on the BAS and 2-Mode hybrids. The classes on the 2-modes really have a lot of application to the Volt. There is really only small differences in the hardware used and just slightly higher source voltage levels (360V vs. 288V) but from a safety and process perspective very similar. So there is already at least one possibly two trained “2-mode” technicians in most Chevy dealerships. (not all Chevy dealers are “2-mode” dealers but that might change)
What they really lack is just plain old experience, as the 2-modes haven’t had a lot of issues and their numbers are not all that significant as of yet (e.g.. it appears only around 1000 GM hybrids were sold in July) But sales of them ARE increasing, especially in the lower cost pick-ups. The 2-mode pickup is now less than $4000 more than a comparably equipped Silverado XFE. It is expected that training on the Volt will begin in the Q:1 2010 in the form of CBTs from Raytheon, but actual “hand’s on” training probably wont commence until some of the first early production units roll off the line sometime in Q:3 or even Q:4 of 2010.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
My boss likes to watch that auction. I tuned in for the last one, and was bored to tears. Guess I’m not a “car guy.”
Oh, by the way, he was extremely vocal and negative when the initial show car Volt was changed for the production-intent design. This is a small sample, but I bet that most watchers of this auction will fall into that camp. This makes me wonder if GM will really sell the first Volt there.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
XIAO
There is no plugin Prius for sale in NA (yet) either.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Those who follow will greatly benefit from GM’s pioneering. The manufacturing base for large-format Li/Ion cells will have already ramped up (lowering costs), the paradigm will have already been publicly demonstrated (saving advertising dollars), they can concentrate on whatever vehicle class GM hasn’t Voltec-ized yet, etc.
We just recently heard that Honda has decided to enter the BEV fray, and we speculated that this was their plan all along; with their current hybrid program serving as something of a smoke-screen (in addition to being a legitimate attempt at hybrid sales). It seems to me that Honda is ideally placed to build a real EREV, and that the BEV story is in fact a cover for this (unless the LEAF manages to take off and save Nissan’s corporate skin, in which case we’ll see the Honda BEV arrive on these shores at the speed of light).
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
GXT
STATIK YOU’RE BACK!
Yay!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
I like go carts!
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Don’t make us angry. You won’t like us when we’re angry.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Since GM is now own “by the people, for the people”, crushing these cars is out of the question
I don’t think they will do that mistake again.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Great suggestion. A gas guzzeling retro sports car is a great substitute for an electric sedan. (rolls eyes)
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
GXT,
I think that you mean transparency as opposed to PR. If they hadn’t done so, they’d be starting the trek to educate people NOW. Which approach do you think is better?
That it’s hard to predict UNKNOWNS isn’t news and I’ll bet you an adult beverage that they won’t recant the 230 number.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
“Astroturfing”
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
A web site is better than nothing, but removing them from the new car dealer ranks is better.
If they are creepy “used car salesmen” then that’s all they should be.
The fact that is a ’saying’ should be enough!
Get tough GM, dump the crap dealers.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Dang, beat me to it. Now what am I going to do with the worlds’ longest extension cord?!
Actually, how about a high-wing monoplane (haven’t followed your link yet), with the upper surface covered with solar cells? You know, solar powered flight has already been demonstrated.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
It would seem to give a whole new dimension to “range anxiety”, LOL.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
No old man. No Biltmore. We stayed in Bryson City, so we were only in Asheville for the airport. Next time though.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
By 2012 this country could be bankrupt; China will buy everything for a song; we become a ‘Communistic State’ and everyone gets a VOLT (or a Camaro) if you learn to speak Chinese! Really. It could happen. Really. Maybe.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
I am seeing a few more new Camaros around town the last few days. Do they look remarkably like the “concept” Volt, or is it just my imagination?
It looks like the first to die will be my 2000 S-10, just about to turn over 230K miles. The Colorado is just too big, and gets even worse mileage thatn the S-10. So I’m thinking small car. I can’t remember, will the Cruze come in a hatchback? Do you have any update on when it will be available?
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
The first 500 will likely go where testing is needed for the Volt. That could be
a) Texas or Arizona for extremely high temperatures
b) NY or Chicago for various seasons – Cold, rain, frequent showers, etc.
c) A few selected places in Canada because it’s much colder and they might need to test how the battery wears out (hopefully not) in these conditions.
I’m in Montreal, and the temperature is unforgiving, the roads generally bad (potholes and all) and electricity is abundant. I’m used to plug my car in the winter.
I guess I am a good candidate for extreme testing of the Volt
)
P.S. I forgot California but I’m sure they will be in for the test. It’s a given I believe.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Well, I was right there with you up to d). Wait for it.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
At a cheaper price ? Let’s wait and see…
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
NERDSHOE!!!
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
As somebody said yesterday, go ahead and don’t buy it. It just means more for those of us who can’t wait to get one.
BTW, if you plug it in, the electricity keeps the battery warm. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that, once you start driving, the chemical reaction(s) in the battery mean that it warms itself.
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August 27th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
It will sure beat the block-of-ice BEV battery that won’t power a flashlight in the deep cold. How much gas do you need to burn to make a little heat? Would you rather put an oil heater in an electric car? With the Volt, you get electricity along with your heat. In alternative energy circles, we call this “co-generation.”
In internet circles you are what we call “a troll.”
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Dagwood55,
You have hit on the big issue for the marketers at GM.
How do you educate the public (without insulting them) about the paradym changing nature of the Volt, the worlds first practical every day useable electric car. The Prius although a real engineering marvel is still a gas car with electric assist, and little 35 mph side street only ‘golfcarts’ just don’t count.
The Leaf does show some promise, but even then it’s still a city car.
The Volt can do all the city car stuff full electric but can take me anywhere I need to go without me having two car payments.
The emini doesn’t count either because it’s a captured fleet which must be returned after one year.
I do not ‘hate’ the Prius (except for the looks) but I see how the Volt changes the game.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Quibble, evade, ….. whatever.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
“Kind of funny using ice to warm something. Oh, that was ICE. That is way different.
Well, Jane, it just goes to show you, it’s always something.
Never mind. ”
– Roseanne Roseannadanna
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Yes, the third dimension!
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
I’ve also had that thought about the new Camaro’s resemblance to the Show car Volt. Kind of makes me wonder if the Show Volt wasn’t really an early concept in that line, hastily nabbed to promote the idea.
If Volt is the success we all hope it will be, perhaps Lutz will write a ‘tell-all’ book.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
This brings up two interesting points. The first is that if you’re concerned about gas consumption a Prius makes more sense than a Volt when the mileage is low. At 50 MPG and 4K miles a year you’re talking about 80 gallons of gas. That would mean you’d be filling up every six or eight weeks. Even if gas were $10/gallon you’d never make up the additional costs of the battery pack since you’d only be spending $800 per year. And of course gas is more like $3/gallon so even if electricity were free — which it almost is when you compare its costs to the price of gas — you’re maximum savings could only be be $240 per year. That’s not much money.
If you’re interested in performance then that’s something else, but basically you get 2/3rds of all possible gas savings going from 20 MPG to 50 MPG.
The second interesting point is that avoiding trips by doing things like telecommuting saves gas and probably gives you more time for other things as well. Nice move!
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
You make some interesting and believable points. Thanks.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
We get our Volts (in Georgia) after you do.
I suspect they will arrive on the day that the first fusion-powered automobile to use Diolithium Crystals is announced.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Did someone call my name? (Back for lunch, so I have to be quick).
GM will not at all have any problem whatsoever with the training of their internal techs. The very best of those very best are likely already chosen. The training will not at all be hard. The various components are all “unitized”, so that there will be relatively expeditious “R & R’s” (removal and replacements), as well as a quick reflash which is likely to occur by Voltec-request through the OnStar.
All proofing of all systems has already been done per GM’s relentlessly scientific approaches. (Not just throwing in a bunch of systems and then empirically-checking for weak spots when failure takes place, and experimenting as to how to remedy and prevent the re-occurrence of that failure).
No other electrified-vehicle OEM could ever possibly get my vote, because down through the last 40 years of seeing how GM carefully constructs vehicle wiring systems, etc, there just is not going to be something I am going to be concerned about regarding Volt.
Yes, the initial numbers are going to be low. I would even recommend some sort of a “condition of privilege” clause for the initial sales that would include as part of the cost to purchase a Volt (GM pays you a check of a dollar, or more if they choose), such “condition of privilege” so as to cause the requirement of only one driver allowed to drive it in such as way as to allow for the non-confounded datasets to be able to be acquired (through the OnStar) that the various agencies need to independently establish efficiencies and data characteristics that “strictly-normal” driving characteristics would yield.
Otherwise, the studies would be severely compromised if abusiveness was subjected to Volt during these critical studies. Driving loads at “steady-state” as much as possible, for example, might be what those agencies firstly need for compilation of datum.
(Back to work. Lots of Genisys units to close)
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
I would expect that training program to be well under way by early summer of next year. GM will train those from selected dealers in the selected markets first. If you can find out the training schedule and where the trainees are from, then you know the Volt release cities. But it is not too difficult to guess many of the release cities.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Zel,
You have good credentials for either an early test vehicle or be close enough to an early release city that you should be able to get a gen 1 Volt by early 2011. Most of us may not be so lucky. You might have to go to Orlando to get your Volt.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
I never buy 1st year production vehicles. It’s never been a great experience and the second year always has great improvements. like anything else.
So I personally wont sweat it a bit and will be a smart buyer waiting for the price to be equal to reality. I can just imagine the outrage when 2 years after introduction a far better battery and efficiency is far cheaper and the gen 1 volts are worth 40% of the sticker. The savings while waiting will offset gas at $4.50 a gallon with no problems at all…
That said it will be cool to see some on the road.
By the way cash for clunkers was a joke. All our tax money supporting overseas car sales. WTF was that all about. Should have been for GM, Ford & Chrysler only. Very Stupid Obama
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
I assume you mean the passenger rail system.
Listening to my grandmother, you’d think trains were hated so much that people could not wait to get off of them and into cars, once roads and prices cooperated.
If that’s not what you mean, well; I expect any karma was balanced out by the GM Electromotive Division.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
I think you’ve nailed it Mark! Yes, if GM keeps turning out 10K Volts a year while Nissan steps up production to 100K Leafs, then GM will lose its gamble to remake its image, at least for the demographic on the coasts. Having hyped the Volt from here to eternity, it would be lame to have such limited production. I’m not sure GM would be perceived as conspiring to not sell efficient vehicles, it would probably be more like “here GM goes again, long on the promise and short on the delivery. Snore. Bore.”
But the end result would be what you’re saying — a lost opportunity. GM has had a lot of those over the last thirty years and it certainly doesn’t need yet another. Hopefully it will figure out a way to get production up for 2012.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
There is no way to measure where any of us (except Lyle, possibly) fits into the Volt’s “spectrum of things”. Position on the GM-VOLT.COM web-site does not mean much in the broad spectrum view of GM. The most any of us can hope for is that the gen 1 Volt will prove highly successful and GM will quickly ramp up production of the gen 2 Volt in enough numbers that most of us can finally serve up that Volt in the driveway. Good luck until then.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
That is true but the first of ANY car (except maybe the Aztec) will sell for high dollars. Especially when it is for charity. Imagine having the first car that changed the auto industry and what it would be worth.
If they list the Volt in the auction list I will definitely post it here. I’m sure you would tune in for an hour or so to see it sell.
I hope they do sell it there. They get a few hundred thousand people that show up to the auction over 7 days not to mention the free advertising GM would get from the TV coverage and all it would cost them is a $40,000 car.
FYI-The first production 55′ t-bird sold for around $600,000 last year.
PS- I think speed had about 40 hours of live coverage last year. I watched just about every night for a few hours. Definitely a car guy.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
There is a sense that range is a huge barrier for BEVs but my guess is that it won’t be. My guess is that the range anxiety is a much bigger deal for people who don’t own a BEV than for those who do. Asking people who have never driven a BEV how they’d behave if they did — as in the survery Lyle posted a few days back — can’t possibly yield any valuable information.
To me the only real piece of data we have about range anxiety comes from EV1 users. When given the choice, almost all EV1 users passed on the opportunity to upgrade their battery pack and increase their range. That seems to demonstrate that BEV drivers, as opposed to prospective drivers, aren’t all that concerned about range anxiety.
My guess is that the first people driving BEVs will become comfortable with the technology, and this attitude will get passed on to friends, neighbors, and co-workers.
Of course won’t make a BEV useful for a 500 mile trip, but for households with more than one car a BEV might make a lot of sense, especially if they drive enough miles to recoup the battery cost. More so if like Lyle they can recharge at work.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
GM started taking pre-orders on the 2010 Camaro’s starting on October 13, 2008. I pre-ordered one on January 10, 2009. Production started on March 15, 2009. The first two months of production were limited so they could work out all of the manufacturing kinks. Around mid May GM ramped up production to around 450 cars a day 5 days a week (one shift). Starting around July GM added a Saturday shift. My car was delivered to me on July 6th (vin 20,xxx). There are some people that ordered the Camaro on October 13, 2008 and still have not received delivery. It is based upon how many allocations each dealer received. If a dealer has an allocation, they submit an order. Larger dealers receive bigger allocations.
So how will this correspond to the Volt? If GM allows the public to pre-order the Volt and you want one as soon as possible… then you better order it on day one from a dealer with a lot of allocations. My guess it will still take 6 months to a year after production starts before it would be delivered. GM has said they will target certain areas of the country first and not all dealers will be able to sell the car. It could take a few years before you see any on a dealership lot (not already accounted for).
There are still 10,000 Camaro’s on back order from customers. The only way you will see a Camaro on a dealership lot is if a customer decided not to take delivery.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Jackson,
I think you are pegging it about right on the production/availability schedule. Two things might get GM off this slow roll out schedule. One, very high demand. Two, drastic reduction in battery cost, but still requires number one to cause heavier commitment to more production by GM. So, the most important factor, as always, is very high demand. Here’s hoping!
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
matt_b,
We appreciate you taking the high road.
Thanks.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
I can speak Mandarin. Please send me a Volt! (UPS is preferred but USPS would be OK as well).
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
There are just too many other issues that make me want a Volt over a Prius:
1) Made in USA
2) Ability to use near zero gas.
3) Actually my electricity is free — I have about 13KW of solar power, and just plain want to power my ride with the sun – I’m at net zero now, and working on saving 1000KWh / year for the Volt.
4) Hundreds of people that visit my house each year (ok ~200 last year) to look at energy efficiency (my place http://www.netzeroenergy.org). So having a Volt on the driveway shows support for Volt to other people that are likely looking at various hybrids.
5) My mileage could go up – yes I could change cars.
6) In a capitalist society sometimes your biggest voting ability is with your wallet!
Performance isn’t really an issue for me.
Another reason to hang on to my gasser until Volt Gen II is since I do low mileage it stops someone else using my old gasser for high mileage.
So I guess my best plan is wait for Gen II and leave my phone number with the local dealer, with a note “When you stop marking up Gen II, give me a call”.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Maybe GM will release the 500 or so for “public” testing by then. Still, an Independence Day release either way would be good.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
In the minds of some people it is a left coast and right coast country with fly over territory in between. Most of those thinkers don’t really know much about the fly over country and don’t really give a rat’s a$$ about it either. So, Jackson, people living just north of Atlanta are like people living just north of Jackson, MS. Just-out-of-luck. I could have worded that just a little bit differently, but decided to tone it down a bit.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
I’m not too optimistic about America’s future either. But communist? After China takes us over? I just don’t see it. The Chinese government is not interested in governing America. They have enough to worry about with administering China.
Worst case scenario (and I don’t think this will happen either) is we form a colony relationship with them. Kind like Nigeria or Sudan. We still have a lot more natural resources than they do.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Dr. Weber hinted at that earlier in a chat, so who knows…
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Don, I certainly agree with what you said about Lyle Dennis. He is definitely worthy of all the praise we can heap on him at this time. (Don’t go getting the big head now, Lyle. You might do something to tee us off and we can deflate you just as fast.)
Plus, what you said about the production schedule, if you want to call it that, makes sense. As usual you make a lot of sense. To me anyway. And I don’t care what Statik says about you.
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August 27th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
There will be others.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Agreed, assuming that the Volts are profitable at that point. I have a good imagination, but I can’t imagine that they won’t be profitable by then.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
With no actual information or insight I’m betting it’s actually the other way around. The new Camaro has been in the works for a long time, I bet the Volt show car was styled after the initial new Camaro drawings.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Wait Wait I am confused
Jeff Belzer (Dealership) feels the Volt is worth 10,000 more than MSRP.
No one is forcing you to buy from that Dealership. If no one buys those Volts… then before long, Jeff Belzer will sell them at MSRP or less.
I agree, its a nastly tactic, and I personally would avoid any dealer who ever uses that policy, but realistically we are talking Supply Versus Demand. This is cars, not bread.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Thank you for your useful insights.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
N. Riley
That’s the price we pay for nice sleeply little towns. Sometimes it comes back to bite us.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
I agree with this…
Also, the huge loans the government has given GM to develop this car will just add to the negative press.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
It gets quiet around here without Cap’n Jack. Where did he go? Other than Hooters?
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
E430 Electric Aircraft
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxfsz95XHb0
Lithium batteries, 5 more years, three times the power, half the weight….yes we can?
=D~
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Sometimes, being “realistic” really sucks.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Bruce,
I find my self agreeing somewhat with what you and Mark said. GM is leaving the door open to be out developed and out produced. In the mind of the public GM could come out as third rate simply because of the slow roll-out and the bad perception of GM in the public’s mind already. But, at the same time, I fully understand the desire to roll this complex, costly vehicle out slowly to get a better feel as to how it will perform and stand up to normal driving by “normal” people who sometimes act like idiots on the road. I can see both viewpoints.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Very good play on words, Jackson.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
As N Riley wrote, thanks Nasaman, you show it is always valuable to have a competent engineer with you.
Regards,
JC
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
That is a decision each of us must make in the future. Your decision is your decision. Others will agree while others will not. Isn’t that great?
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Right.
Here is the problem, as an industry car dealers suck.
(Sorry corvetteguy but facts are facts.)
To break that mold GM should shred bad dealers ‘period’.
Dump the thieves and work with good people, maybe corvetteguy, as long as people pay the advertised ‘fair’ price.
I have been treated badly by several dealerships. (not just GM)
It really sucks to think the car is broken but I can’t go to the dealer because they will rip me off.
I have this very problem right now with my wifes car.
It’s making ‘bad’ noises but I KNOW that the dealer will try everything they can to rip us off.
So I have NOT yet taken it in.
She will NOT take it in because she gets treated ‘like a woman’ by the service people.
That’s not a good thing.
THIS is the reality for ALL car dealerships the bad apples have us as the consumer EXPECTING to get ripped off.
In my world that is a bad business model but it continues regardless.
Break this awful mold GM! Please!
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Same type of rationale a lot of people will be using in the future. Nothing wrong with your thinking. You have to do what is in your best interest first and foremost. Other than that you are not being true to yourself or your family.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Um, that’s sort of what I was trying to say. Camaro first, Show Volt ripped off (and with no intent of it ever seeing production).
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
$30 million divided by 500 test Volts equals $60,000 each. Not bad for GM.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I forgot to add that there is also a Weber carburetor that was made in Italy and that the spouse of Mozart was also named (Constanze)Weber, etc.
JC
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
But, Still have the web site to make his gouging open for all to see and sooner rather than later he will see the light that being one of the non gouging dealers is more profitable.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
I don’t think GM is able to devote as much time and money to “charity” these days. Let’s hope that if they do, they can justify it in spades. Has to be for the right “causes” or they will get trounced upon. Best if they just stayed off that band wagon until they repay the loans and buys back the government stock options.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
I have lived in “sleepy little towns” and bustling big cities. I will take the sleepy little towns any day of the year.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
I was with you on A and C. I did not understand D enough to get it – maybe it has come to Noel by now, but I am still waiting. As far as B is concerned, while I agree it will be good to stop importing oil, I suspect the U.S. will still be on Oil Transport Cop duty for the other countries of the world because we are somewhat stupid in thinking they will “appreciate” our efforts and the blood of our young we may spill to protect “their” oil life-lines. Sometimes we, as a country, never learn our lesson. We are destined to repeat the same stupid mistakes of our fathers.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Rashiid
I will try again regarding places to go in western NC.
Any chance you got aboard the Great Smokey Mountain Railroad for the scenic ride in the mountains?
I have done it twice with my grand children and loved it both times.
And I still want my Volt NOW!!!
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Oops. My blond… Sorry Jackson.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Have need, will travel.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
A few things
#1. Both the Volt and the Prius as C-Class Cars comparable to Civic/Corolla. They are not Midsize class, even if the Hatch Area makes you think they are.
#2. Your being a bit…. unfair to give the Prius better than its EPA rating, while penalizing the Volt. Prius rarely get 50 mpg combined per EPA. There are after all -4- generations of Prii. More likely the average Volt will use around 70 gallons, not 100.
#3. Its really unfair to compare a car effects that have been out for a -decade- already to one not even published. Just doesn’t make sense.
A Better Comparison would be the first 3 years of the Prius Versus the First Three Years of the Volt
Prius (Sales) Year 1 – 300 Year 2 – 17,700 Year 3 – 15,200
Combined EPA Rating for GEN 2 is 41, so for Gen 1, lets say 40 mpg combined.
Typical C-Class Car averages around 28 mpg
Prius (Year 1-3), 33,200 cars at 40 mpg
Volt (Years 1-3), ?? (Min 10,500) at 230 mpg
Over 15,000 miles
Prius= 33,200 * (15,000/28-15,000/40)= 5.31 million saved
Volt= “X” * (15,000/28-15,000/230) = 5.31 million saved – X= 11,500
Conclusion, if over the first 3 years of the Volt program, GM sells more than 11,500 Volts, it will reduce Oil consumption more than the first three years of the Prius program.
Is this a reason to “wait” for a Volt. No. If you have a need for an Auto today, get a Prius, drive it for 10 years and buy Gen 3 Volt. Thats what makes sense.
If you care about Fuel consumption 20 years for now, cheering on programs like the Volt makes sense. In 20 years, cars like the Prius or Volt might not even exist in the new car area, but of the two, I would prefer Volts over Prii.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
A prime example of the potty mouthed web troll invading where it isn’t wanted.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
I gotta ask it..everytime I see a comment like this..
ok..
please list the MSRP for both vehicles and the link proving it..not the ones speculating on the costs..I want facts, otherwise your comapring an imaginary price on an unreleased vehicle, to another lower imaginary price on another unreleased vehicle..
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
I think its his creative attempt at getting an early Volt.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
We were all wanted when this site got published on the internet. Freedom of speach, don’t like go elsewhere.
Seems more often than not your current residence of bloggers seem to splat obscenities freely as well.
Hypocrites.
Of course it’s just your ways of deflecting the true negatives of the Volt.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Well said.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
I am sorry, CorvetteGuy, but I don’t think the dealers we have to worry about is going to be gauging public opinion at first. They are going to see that they have a product that a lot of people are asking for and there is a chance to knock off a few more thousand on each sale. I can understand it from their perspective and I can understand it from the perspective of someone who is willing to pay that premium just to have the opportunity to purchase a Volt much sooner that normal. I don’t blame the buyer, but I do blame the dealer for doing that and GM for allowing it to happen. It just will not happen to me because I have always walked away from price + premium deals. I will continue to do so in the future. I don’t have to have a Volt that bad.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Good name by the way..you should keep usiing it…its seems to be where your thoughts can be found..
Anyway..so your BEV dies, and a volt dies…the volt driver gets a jerry can and he’s off.. you on the other hand get one of those incredibly efficient no polluting tow trucks to take you home so you can wait 3-4 hours using your special charger before you can go out again…
the volt = go cart….your BEV becomes a brick on wheels.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
they basically took a golf cart..threw a comero body on it and introduced it as the volt. (its the rumour back at the NAIAS)
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
thanks for the info
Dan P too
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Jim I:
Too true, alas.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
liquor store?
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
We don’t have a source for this 10,000 number. I wouldn’t get too Riled up yet. As for me, myself and I, I’m shooting for a Volt in 2012 anyway.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
I think you are right there, we don’t know the numbers yet but they will rollout gen 2 once they can build and sell at a profit in the $28-35k range.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Yeah, they probably have 500 Hollywood celebs and high level politicos signed up already, LOL. 2012? I hope so.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
A lot of people said something like that last year and the year before… “Watch out, Toyota! GM’s got products that will kick your @$$!!”
And the people who pay attention to the business and to what sells and what doesn’t sell and what’s profitable and what isn’t profitable said, “For GM, there may not BE a tomorrow.”
And, sure enough, GM went bankrupt by banking on tomorrow.
Right now, we don’t know if GM has the cash flow to stay in business, even with the shiny new balance sheet that Bob Lutz is proudly showing off. Never mind all the people that got the shaft in that and the taxpayer’s on the hook and all the ill will of years past, Lutz thinks GM is competitive now because they removed a lot of obligations and interest burden. Their products are all good and GM is golden.
Suuuure.
But maybe El Lutzbo should take another look. People used Cash for Clunkers as a way to bail on their GM cars. They used the extra cash that their clunker was worth to shift to Toyotas and other non-Detroit cars. GM’s “market share” in the C4C period was lower than their previous market share.
And Toyota has a talent for satisfying customers, so those defectors are GONE. And their happines will affect other potential customers. The erosion continues.
What I’m getting at, here, is that worrying about tomorrow is for tomorrow… GM still isn’t out of the woods TODAY.
And, in any event, as far as the Volt and Voltec platform goes, “tomorrow” is actually in 2014 or so, when GM MAY start to offer enough volume in Voltec vehicles to actually challenge the Prius, which is building in half-million units per year quantities TODAY. That’s 5 years of profitable Prius sales down the road.
What will Toyota do with that money? My guess: Build themselves a bigger club with which to beat GM even harder.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Maybe there will be a gm-volt.com special edition!
With our own tacky little sticker on the fender!
That would be funny and cool!
OK, maybe cool is a stretch but fun for sure!
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Right on – as usual.
Lyle is the engine of our Volt site.People like you, DonC, RB, DaveG and too many to name provide the sheet metal. The wheels are provide by people like Statik, Nasaman and Noel Park – to name just a few. Ours is a funny looking Volt, but GM would be smart to emulate it as much as they can. It will take us around the world and back in just seconds.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
We can torture test it by driving it around the freeways in LA. It’s almost as good as the Baja 1000, LOL.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
It’s good to be back. Work was insane for the past couple of weeks. I was in London for four days–great city, but I didn’t have too much free time. Things should be quieter for a while though.
I agree that bad dealerships is a huge problem. And GM should have used the bankruptcy procedures to identify these dealers and get rid of them. Although I think that probably is easier said than done. And they didn’t have very much time to make their decisions.
But state franchise laws protect the dealers. That means GM can’t shut them down or remove them from new dealer ranks. And if they posted a list like that–they would probably be sued and have to pay out billions in damages.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
So 52/1.2 = 43.3 MPG (US) not bad, what was the EPA rating?
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Don’t forget Detroit.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Mark:
Well said. Good on ya mate.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
“40k vs 22k”
This is a big misconception.
That 22k Prius is stripped. You may not care about some of the things Stripped like Fog Lights, HomeLink Transceiver, option for Navigation, etc. Its just hard to compare a the “value” of a 40,000 dollar car to a 22,000 car without knowing the inclusions of the 40,000 dollar car. For example, Fog Lights are ~400 dollar up charge, if you can add them, on that 22,000 Prius.
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August 27th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
+1 for quoting Roseanne Roseannadanna!!!
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August 27th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Toyota dealers have a lot more Priuses to sell. GM is only making 10,000 for the first year. That spells mark-ups. Probably on a massive scale. It’s all about supply and demand.
Why do you think GM is talking about ebay? They’re trying to capture some of that mark-up for themselves. And I don’t blame them.
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