I recently had the chance to be one of the few people outside of GM to get behind the wheel of a plugin 2 mode hybrid prototype at GM’s test grounds in Milford. I was accompanied by Larry Nitz, GM’s director of hybrid powertrain development.
Originally this vehilce was set to debut under the Saturn brand in 2010 but due to the brand’s sale, that was changed. It was then slated to appear as a Buick compact crossover, another plan that was recently shelved due to customer feedback. The car will still launch in late 2011, but the brand and design remain unknown.
The mule I drove remained in the original Saturn VUE skin (shown above). You can drive along with us in the video below.
It uses an 8 kwh LG lithium-ion pack pack, which is essentially half a Volt pack. The mule car was at this point highly refined, though only about 90% production intent. I was told the instrumental panel will be slightly changed from what was displayed in the mule.
The final car will have a silent start though the engine went on at start in the mule. It contained a 3.6 L DI 270 hp engine and two 55 kw electric motors, utilizing a power-split engineering architecture significantly enhanced by the large lithium-ion pack.
The car drove off very silently though a thrust of the accelerator brought on the roar of the gas engine. It was capable of 40 mph top electric speed but it was tough to get above 25 mph pure EV with acceleration. In theory, the car could go 10 miles as a pure EV under 35 mph.
Components were changed from the original 2-mode VUE, in particular the engine and inverter were changed and modifications to the transmission and electric motor were made all for the purpose of reducing cost and increasing efficiency. In fact the Volt’s inverter is used.
GM would not release a target price at this time.
I found the electric acceleration solid and quiet as GM had paid special attention to the noise and vibration of electric motor
Notable was the very smooth transition to engine on, and also well done was the fact that there was no shudder when the engine turns off.
This design and concept is significantly different that found in the Volt. The PHEV is not an EREV. Operation is almost always a mixture of gas engine and electric motors to allow generous power and maximum efficiency. Though like the Volt, GM wants to discharge the battery as much as possible on each trip. I was told the aim of the car is to try to discharge the battery in about 20 miles.
The car differs from traditional power split hybrids like the Prius. Here there’s a second mode of operation to gear down the traction motor for bigger vehicles. It uses a power split architecture and both electric motors are working almost all the time.
Also with two modes it is possible to both have an efficient electric drive and operate the engine efficiently.
In operation, the ICE follows the load and does not only run at certain RPMs and even though the car weighs in at 4500 pounds with its battery, it still has a lot of power.
In the end, the car clearly does what its supposed to do, and does it well. And for those needing the power and size of an SUV and desiring a plug and double the fuel economy of traditional SUVs, this car may be the answer. GM expects it to be the first commercially available plug-in hybrid SUV produced by a major automaker.
This entry was posted on Monday, August 24th, 2009 at 6:00 am and is filed under PHEV, Test drive, Video. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+3
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:11 am)I don’t understand why dealers would refuse this vehicle. There is pent up demand for a plugin SUV.
+3
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:34 am)“There is a pent up demand for a plugin SUV” <<<I agree, Jason —and I’m one of those who’s been feeling very “pent up”!!!
As you know Lyle, this vehicle was one reason I attended VoltNation last year. I’ve followed its development just as intently as the Volt’s, studied its drive train in detail, and even lobbied Bob Lutz (and other decision makers at GM) to increase its battery size —which I believe they’ve done since the concept car was originally announced (though I disclaim any credit for the bigger battery).
As you report it here from your test drive, the result is as superb as I’d hoped! For me, this CUV that gets substantial battery assist for about 20 miles and uses the basic Caddy CTS 3.6L V-6 for added power & an unlimited range on gasoline is perfect for hauling my boat in/out of Florida’s lakes & rivers. And whatever “skin” it’ll wear, it will look GREAT parked beside my Volt!
-33
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:35 am)(click to show comment)
+10
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:38 am)This car could easily be more popular than the Volt. For many, the Volt will simply be too small. If this thing is in a 2010 style Equinox Body and priced right, it should sell very well. Hopefully GM will be able to price this vehicle within reach.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:38 am)I think Volt Nation should be in FL this year, don’t you?
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:39 am)If that was the plug-in 2-mode Buick in the background, it didn’t look that bad to me. Maybe they are changing to a GMC model but I got the feeling from the Buick cancellation that it may be the beginning of the end for plug-in 2-mode. I hope not. I think this can carry a ~$15K premium for low volume Gen1. Gen2 with ~$10k and 2.5 times ICE efficiency for first ~40 miles could reach high volume.
+13
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:39 am)Let’s not have another hydrogen conversation highjack this thread!
The last post was enough to last a month of Sundays.
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:48 am)“This car could easily be more popular than the Volt.” <<< I agree! And crossover or compact SUV (i.e., CUV) sales have shown them to be extremely popular —both here and in other parts of the world like Europe.
-1
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:52 am)Actually I’m quite curious as to how they “solved the problem”? does it mean Hydrogen will be less expensive to make than electricity? link please!
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:07 am)Excellent report Lyle! Does it have regen braking?
Show me the Silverado!
A CUV is just not as strong and capable as a full-frame truck. Hauling bulk items (manure, boards, bricks, mortar) is easier and cleaner in a pickup.
I can see this hauling a small boat or pop-up camper, but, anything over about 3,000 lbs could be a problem.
+4
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:09 am)If anyone knows how to bring cost down, it’s GM. Through my career with GM, I’ve seen them come out with new expensive products and with given time, bring the cost down by half using ingenious automating techniques and designs.
GO GM GO!
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:10 am)nasaman, you say you’ve studied the 2mode PHEV’s drive train in detail. I would really like to get links to your sources. In particular, GM has released a photo of the exterial of the 2MT70 FWD 2modeHybrid tranny, but I’m not aware of a schematic or cutaway of it like they’ve released for the RWD 2modeHybrid tranny.
Anything you could provide would be appreciated. Thanks.
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:19 am)Sure, why not have the next VoltNation at the Daytona 500 track and ask GM to provide vehicles such as the Volt, Vue, and other new plug-ins (or even new Corvettes) for test drives around the race track?
BTW, Lyle, your Vue test drive report here with Larry Nitz is truly outstanding!!!
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:33 am)It has two 55kw electric motors – - that equals the Volt’s 110kw electric motor.
It has 8kwh battery pack – - that is half the size of the Volt’s.
The Volt will get 230 MPG – - so this vehicle should get 115 MPG!
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:37 am)Maybe I’m getting my cars confused, but wasn’t this the one shelved because of poor feedback from consumers? Too early. Need coffee.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:40 am)nasaman –> I am 100% with you in your enthusiasm. To me the only question is the price, and if that is reasonable the vehicle is a home run.
+3
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:40 am)FMEIII
Amen on the hijack. No H2 volt’s in the near term so lets concentrate on the VOLT!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
the VOLT!
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:42 am)Agree with the “pent up” demand – at least on my part! I’ve been waiting awhile for this vehicle. Whatever the badge name, get it on the road! Thanks Lyle for the great report.
-1
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:44 am)Yeah, I’m not buying the “Buick branding didn’t work” explanation, the aesthetics look pretty good to me.
The problem this vehicle has is that it will be directly compared to Ford’s plug in escape. Ford has been reported testing mpg (on 30 mile cycles) fairly consistently at up to 80 to 120 mpg with a 10 kwh battery pack.
I don’t get the feeling GM’s getting those kind of numbers. Granted, I’ve got no reported numbers to go on, but the “between the line” feel from Mr. Nitz’s commentary didn’t leave me thinking big mpg.
If Ford’s plug in mpg’s are far exceeding GM’s, it’s just not going to look too good, especially if GM is having to price $4,000 higher.
Maybe GM will have to redesign, and move it over into the cadillac line. Something to keep it from going head to head with the escape.
(est. numbers on non plug 2 mode were 28/28 vs. Escape’s 34/31, 2 mode is est. $4,000 more and 600 lb heavier)
http://www.examiner.com/x-572-Auto-Review-Examiner~y2008m10d22-Driven-2009-Saturn-Vue-2-Mode-Hybrid-car-review
+3
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:45 am)**TRUST**
… is what is building very rapidly with these terrific videos, Lyle!
No other OEM is doing it this way. Open discussions from GM engineers like this is what is bringing outstanding credibility, sense of solidly-well-engineered product, elimination of consumer misunderstandings, and overall, a great sense of success for both GM and their customers Worldwide.
Excellent video, Lyle.
(Off to work. Have a terrific day all!!)
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:45 am)Can’t wait as long as I can tow something reasonable (suitable for a vehicle of this size) and there is an AWD option. I would rather it was on the Voltec platform, but for now this will be a nice complement to my Volt !
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:53 am)Tagamet to Tagamet:
Check your meds.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:55 am)This is the car that was cut from the Buick line but that is a cut in name only.
The official story, as I understand it, is that this vehicle has been under development for some time as a Saturn Vue. Now that Saturn has been shed, they need another badge to put on its grill. That is where we are now. Its a real car with no name.
The Buick badge was glued on and people apparently gagged. The plastic buick badge was removed and now we are looking for another badge. Whatever the skin, the guts are from the Old Saturn Vue.
I personally think they will stick a Chevy Bow Tie on this thing and call it an Equinox. Since the 2010 Equinox looks like a hit, I think this would fit in just fine.
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:56 am)nasaman,
Ditto on the kudos for Lyle. The fisrt time the engine came on I didn’t even HEAR it, so maybe that transition isn’t going to be such a problem after all.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:59 am)nuclearboy,
Thanks, that (and some coffee) cleared it right up. You do good “schoolin”.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:00 am)nasaman,
You’re the goto guy on this vehicle, so any guess how much the electric assist will help with mileage?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:02 am)It also leaves GM vulnerable to great criticism, like it did with the 230 thing. I’m not sure it’s always a good idea. At times, GM should surprise the media just before it comes out with a great product. Not years in advance.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:06 am)Bacon,
I doubt that this larger vehicle will have the low drag that the Volt has. Maybe it will (SHRUG), but it seems physically unlikely that a larger profile could slide through the air as easily as a smaller one.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:09 am)Glad they are working on offering a hybrid SUV even though I have no use for one. You’d think an SUV would leave lots of room for a bigger battery though.
I’ll take my VOLTEC in a 2-seat Buick roadster please.
+3
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:12 am)Trust is so easily lost and sooo hard to regain. I’m glad that GM is doing everything in it’s power to restore trust, but we have to remember that we are a small (but intense) group of addicts, er, I mean aficionados. I don’t know how much GM has been doing through the general media. It early in the process ( a long time before these releases) but I don’t think it’s too early to get the good word(s) out.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-6
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:22 am)I didn’t drive it but rode along when my friend did on August 10th. He thought it performed well. I was impressed with the takeoff and general performance. In spite of the way he was flogging it, it did manage to stay on battery through part of the course.
But the larger questions are, can they rebadge a Saturn? As what? How much will it cost? The battery is very expensive, the powertrain equally so and the easiest way to get 50mpg is to re-evaluate needs and downsize to a Prius.
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:26 am)Tag, my best guess is based on at least 2 different sources I’ve read in the past year. One at GM left lane (or another GM source) said they had been road testing 11 plug-in Vue mules. The other was along the line, “the 2-mode Vue will have about 50% better gas mileage than the current 4-cyl Vue” (which would be ~24mpg x 1.5 = 36mpg), “and the plug-in Vue should approximately double that” (which is ~36mpg x 2 = 72 mpg).
Sorry, a quick search doesn’t turn up either source. But if you consider that the small FWD 2-mode has two 75HP electric motors (same power as the Volt) with an 8 kWH battery, and you don’t drive too far beyond its battery range (20mi), something approaching 70 MPG should be achievable, right? Hey Tag, wouldn’t you at least consider replacing that gas-guzzling Jeep with a more powerful, quieter vehicle that can triple (or quadruple? on short trips) your mileage?
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:38 am)Thanks nasaman,
That’s a huge improvement in mileage for the plugin electric assist. We get about 20mpg in the Jeep Grands Cherokee, but it still has at least 3 of the 4 wheels still on it. Once the 3rd wheel falls off we’ll HAVE to get something else. That’s most certainly going to be a Volt. Once we get the Volt paid for, although we’ll consider this one (which by then should be in Gen III), there’s just the two of us, so it’s probably more vehicle than we’d need. It DOES look like a great vehicle and that initial transition was almost invisible!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+6
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:46 am)Why stop at the prius. Why not re-evaluate needs further and go to a bicycle or Moped and get a poncho for the weather.
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:49 am)I agree public acceptance of this superb drive train as an Equinox should be great. As well, the drive train should work in an Caddy SRX with rear wheel motors optionally available (as in the Provoq concept) to make it AWD.
And as shrewd as Roger Penske is, I’m not discounting the possibility it might also be available as one of the Vue models GM has agreed to sell him for distribution to his “reborn” Saturn dealerships!
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:49 am)Joe,
I agree with you that a (good) surprise is often a great idea.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:56 am)I’d think it would make a great addition to the Equinox line up.
-1
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:59 am)Why not stay home?
The Prius and the Vue PHEV are very similar in terms of capacity (5), weather proof cabin, practical cruise speed and effort necessary to move the vehicle (depress accelerator pedal). The options you describe are qualitatively different.
There’s plenty of evidence that people are re-evaluating their transportation needs, as opposed to indulging their transporation wants, and generally downsizing. The clunker most often traded is the Ford Explorer and the new car most often picked to replace it is the Corolla.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:02 am)The only real problem I see with going to Cadilac as the nameplate is that hybrids stay in the same rut they are in right now, too expensive for ‘Pat’ six pack.
I’d lke to see it as a Chevy.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:02 am)Fortunately, “needs” are not the only reason people buy cars.
Even today.
And it will always be this way. Just like buying a house. Just like buying clothes. Just like buying phones. And furniture; and computers; and televisions…………
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:07 am)Absolutely!
My wife and I talked ourselves out of buying a new ‘hybrid’ camper last week.
3000 pounds empty, my old Discovery could pull it without issue but I wonder if the 2 mode (vue/equinox/srx) could. (Safely)
+3
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:15 am)Staying home would save even more gas. F the kids and all those silly activities.
The point I was making is one that stems from the arguments I have heard for years from those with small cars or whatever energy savings mode they are in. They claim that what they have is all that is needed by everyone else.
I find this argument juvenile and like to point out that the small car driver could go even smaller yet and save even more fuel. Why are they not doing this???
Or as you say, stay at home. Another good idea.
The bottom line, I don’t think one size fits all and like to point this out to those who do.
There is no doubt, however, that many will be downsizing now that we know that gas can easily cost $5 or more per gallon.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:18 am)Here’s a link with lots of good info of the two mode Vue hybrid, dated Jan 6th 2008, for those who are interested.
http://green.autoblog.com/2008/01/06/detroit-2008-saturn-vue-2-mode-hybrid/
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:21 am)While you do have a point that some people buy their cars for image (people ARE people after all…) a lot of us need a more powerful ‘car’ to do what needs to be done.
So on the first point, My image needs require driving a nice machine which due to my personal preferences precludes the rather homely Prius.
Secondly I need to haul trailers both for work and for recreation and require a ‘truck’ that can handle this. (In my case a midsize SUV can do this just fine. /Currently a Land Rover Discovery)
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:22 am)As far as a guesstimate on mileage, would think the SUV would get about 28 MPG overall, after getting close to 50 MPG for the first 20 miles or so, while operating in charge depletion mode. Time will tell.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:27 am)I am not sure that the Gov’t paying (bribing?) 300,000 people in a country of 300 million to trade in an old car constitutes “evidence of people re-evaluating their transportation needs, as opposed to indulging their transportation wants..”
It is certainly evidence that people like a good deal, though…
On second thought, its evidence people like getting money back from the Gov’t. They could have traded in that $1000-$2000 Explorer earlier this year, gotten better rebates and cash back offers from the auto companies, and actually had a nicer selection of vehicles to choose from. Rather than having to sift through the leftovers on the lots now and make compromises they would not have made earlier.
To me this just means these folks will likely be unhappy with what they bought a lot sooner than they would have had they been able to actually buy what they really wanted.
And be ready to buy another car in a couple years, again.
OH!!!! I GET IT!!!!! STIMULUS!!!!!!!
Cash for clunkers was perfectly thought out……
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:32 am)Cab Driver, the only cutaway I’ve seen of the FWD 2-mode transmission was depicted as a cartoon (probably for proprietary reasons), and I can’t even find that now. One thing you may find intriguing, though, is that GM has said the Volt’s 110KW motor is housed in the FWD 2-mode housing and the Volt motor will be built in the same factory in Baltimore where the 2-mode tranny with two 55KW motors is built. I’m not willing to make the leap of logic that the Volt’s 110KW motor is actually these same two 55KW motors (operating in tandem) that are now in the Vue’s FWD 2-mode, but it is something of a brain teaser, right?
/ I’m tied up the rest of today (as usual) in national conference calls, so gotta bail now
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:37 am)This sounds like a good guess to me also given what I have read. I had hoped it would be more than double the mileage for the first 20 miles or so but only testing this (in time) will tell.
-5
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:40 am)This extremely heavy beast will be lucky to get high 30s MPG. Those spouting out ginormous numbers like 70 MPG are way off the mark and know very little about automotive engineering. Everybody thinks they are some kind of an expert you peeps are a major funny
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:41 am)*Need* and *want* are two different things.
We *need* a way to get to work/shopping/vacations etc, but, we *want* something with some class and creature comfort to do these things.
Buying a car is more visceral than most realize. A new shiny blah vanilla car is ok. But, a new shiny cool sexy ride with a little bling is better
-11
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:43 am)(click to show comment)
-7
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:46 am)What are you smoking these days ?
I want to party with you !
-13
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:49 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:52 am)The fact of the matter is, and not only do you underappreciate it, so does all of Detroit’s marketing, downsizing is more practical than anyone admits until their priorities shift. Detroit’s drinking its own Kool-Aid in terms of believing people buy big, honkin’ SUVs because they need them. They don’t.
When people decide factors like CO2 footprint, terrorists getting oil money or the impact of gas prices on their finances are important, they don’t say, “Gee, how can I spend an extra $10K to save a few miles per gallon?”
What they do is to look critically at the supersized vehicles already in the driveway and ask, “do I really need all that?” Very often, the answer is “no.” Surprise! You don’t need a three-ton Suburban to take your two kids to soccer. Some of us have known this for decades.
The market reflects the reality of downsizing very well. Sales of the SUV hybrids are negligible. Even the Highlander doesn’t sell particularly well. More people switched from GMT900 SUVs to Lambda SUVs, which saved both up-front cost and fuel costs.
Vehicles like the Saturn Vue two-mode hybrid still need fairly significant sales, at good prices, to be profitable for GM. GM’s especially vulnerable because they don’t reuse the technology across their product lines even as much as Ford does. The combination of very low interest in these along with very high production costs means that GM can do these vehicles only if they intend to lose money. Toyota can afford to offer the Highlander because it reuses HSD technology that’s offered in 500K other Toyota vehicles every year.
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:52 am)Which is why many of those who buy “shiny blah vanilla” cars are more apt to get rid of them in a couple years and buy something else. They get sick and tired of driving them.
Not to mention, it’s not enough time for anything to go wrong with them, thereby reinforcing the percieved quality, whether its there or not ……
Sort of like Logan’s Run for vehicles…..
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:57 am)C4C supplied an opportunity to bring transportation needs in line with reality.
As for these people buying a new car in the near future because they’re unhappy with what they just purchased, that’s an extremely doubtful notion. Go read the Edmunds reviews of the Yaris and other small cars. It’s surprising how many people downsize from some ridiculous beast-machine and discover that they LIKE their new small car.
They’re also going to discover they’ve got more money when they get off the bad-fuel-economy/massive-depreciation merry-go-round and they’re very likely to stick with their small car choices. It’s not for nothing that Toyota and Honda have the highest owner loyalty rates in the value market.
-14
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:00 am)(click to show comment)
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:01 am)I know I’m late to this party, but..
I understand the so called mild hybrid (start-stop), the regular/strong hybrid (Prius type – what ever), PHEV, and EREV. This 2-mode thing GM is flogging I don’t get. Its for trucks and SUVs and its got two motors; other than that I have so totally not figured out what the modes are that it has two of.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:05 am)Just searching for ‘MIT+cheap+hydrogen’ produced:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html
I don’t see this as ‘cheap’ since it suggest using platinum for the hydrogen side.
The MIT research on lithium-ion cells is more promising. http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/battery-material-0311.html. Published in Nature magazine March 2009.
Basically, they figured out a way to make super-highways (they called it a beltway) for the electrons within the substrate. This could produce a li-ion battery with much greater power output and can charge much more quickly (seconds rather than hours) using the exact same materials!
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:14 am)I don’t know a lot about automotive engineering, but the Ford Escape hybrid (non plug in) gets over 30 mpg city and highway. I would think with 150 hp of electric motor assist, this GM vehicle should be able to get somewhere in the upper 40′s mpg for the first 20 miles at least.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:14 am)Charlie,
These “clunkers” by definition have already fallen off the depreciation merry-go-round. No advantage here.
I would also argue that also most of these old, big SUV’s and trucks that are being traded in were likely currently used very little anyway. The utility was already realized in their earlier life. Thet were sitting around, mostly unused. I personally know two people who did this. Most households have more than one car, you know. Hard to make a fuel economy argument if its not driven regularly.
And as far as having more money….. last I checked, they weren’t giving these new cars away for free.
The question is, again, did the buyers get sucked into a car payment on a “car lot leftover” because the Gov’t was offering them a good deal? I don’t think fuel economy was near the factor you think it was. Just the increase in the insurance premiums will cancel out some of that gain anyway.
+3
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:17 am)Cool your jets Uncle Albert. I work at Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama and yes they have bad engineers working at NASA and they also have some very good ones as well. It is unfortunate that a few bad apples give the entire organization a bad name. Let me assure you that NASA did a bit of “house cleaning” after the last Shuttle mishap so things are somewhat better now however the Peter Principle is still alive and well here at NASA as in most companies in North America.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:20 am)I am hopeful regarding the battery beltway system. If it makes it to production this will jump start the infrastructure for quick charge stations and the rapid rise of BEV sales. possibly even for me.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:23 am)Too bloody right! KISS and LJGTVWOTR!!
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:24 am)So, maybe you think they should crawl in to a hole and slowly bleed money till they are dead rather than to try to innovate new products which will allow them to not only go on but to again prosper.
Innovating takes money, simple as that!!
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:25 am)Dan Nocera from MIT came up with a process of extracting oxygen from water using inexpensive catalysts. But the problem of extracting the hydrogen still exists (still needs platinum) and of course you would still need a fuel cell which is expensive. So rather than solving “the problem” the breakthrough solved one of many problems.
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html
FWIW Nocera sees his breakthrough as allowing a home to store electricity not as a means of using hydrogen for transportation. You use the excess electricity from your solar system to create hydrogen during the day and then you use the hydrogen to power your home — and charge your EV — during the night.
But this is pretty cool.
+4
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:27 am)How about selling it wth no permanent badge and a bag of stick on badges so the customer could decide. Maybe they could be magnetic, and you could change them to suit the fashion statement you wanted to make that day.
+6
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:27 am)Poor English is becoming a bit of a bore. And a lack of logic makes you sound blind to facts.
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:28 am)Our troll is up early, guess his mommy is waking him early to get ready for his return to grade school.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:32 am)If GM decides to go with this route (personally, I think they should only do Volt or better electric vehicles) I hope they at least put in an ECO button or screen selection that allows a similar operation to that of the Volt. I want to pull away using only the electric motors. I don’t care if the performance is not sports-car-like. When the battery gets to the 30% mark, turn that ICE beast on.
Oh, I guess we need to know if all the systems are electric and can run without that giant motor running. Anyone? Steering? Breaks? A/C?
If you don’t give that ECO option, you will have a bunch of people trying to baby the gas pedal to get the maximum AER. Could cause accidents and customer frustration.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:36 am)Although the excecution is different it is not really much different in function than the Prius’ drivetrain, it can run full electric up to a certain speed then the ‘second’ mode cuts in and the gas engine starts.
The difference is that the GM system is configured with a nod to heavier duty work such as towing a trailer.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:38 am)Alas Charlie, I can only agree with you. I can only tell you that our next car is going to be a LOT smaller than what we’re driving now. I have zero interest in the Saturn/Buick/??? “CUV”
LJGTVWOTR!!
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:39 am)They said it would stay a Buick and that it would be adapted for another vehicle involving no delays. Buick is supposedly going to release a mid size Regal in 2011 and a compact “Cruze like” compact in 2012, each with a corresponding “distinctive compact crossover”. Since this drive train seems to have too many horses for a compact, I’d guess the Regal CUV would be the one getting the hybrid drive train. That would also dovetail with the “no delay” representation.
I’d like to see Voltec on the Orlando which people seem quite impressed with.
-1
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:41 am)Noel,
LOL, +1
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+5
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:49 am)THIS AIN,T NO PRIUS !
Thank God and Gm for that. The Prius is fine if that is what you want. Just don’t try to haul anything behind it. If you do, Dang, I hope I am not in the car behind you.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:53 am)Texas,
It seems to me that unloaded this SUV can do precisely that.
Of course if hauling a trailer then the engine will start sooner, instant electric torque or not 110kw of motor will be slow off the line with a load out back!
Combined gas/electric could be a real winner for towing, and could be very efficent around town. Particularly for those with a slower shorter urban commute.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:56 am)So, what’s the MPG of this? Nice to know it exists in some form but the MPG is what will determine if it gets to production.
-3
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:59 am)“I would also argue that also most of these old, big SUV’s and trucks that are being traded in were likely currently used very little anyway.”
Except that, to qualify, they had to be insured and registered. In other words, the expense necessary to keep them roadworthy had been applied for the last year. They were in use.
People saw an opportunity and took it. The results speak for themselves.
You also fail to realize the significance of depreciation, as do many people. Low up-front cost does not necessarily mean low cost of ownership. Depreciation is a significant chunk of that. Owning vehicles that retain their value is very rewarding.
It’s a pity that some people won’t realize exactly why they’re doing so much better in ten years. I do. My current vehicles, although old, still have significant value.
In fact, I don’t have to trade them, I can offer them for sale myself and do much better than on a dealer trade. Cars with good resale values are easier to sell… the demand is there. Cars with poor resale values that will languish with a “for sale” sign for weeks without generating interest, these become fodder for dealer trades at unfavorable prices.
If you don’t think fuel economy is such a big factor, then you explain why the local Toyota dealer sold completely out of Yarises and, as of two weeks ago, almost out of all his other high-mpg stock, including the Prius. People have finally started to wise up.
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:08 am)Although I’m siding with Tag on this it really will come down to usage.
If you live quite close to work with a slower speed commute it’s quite possible that a good portion of your weekly drive could be electric which could return some very good average gas mileage.
I ‘buy’ the 70 mpg number if conditions are right, but most people will simply end up with a very efficent tow capable ‘car’.
I’d drive my Discovery a lot more if I got that much better mileage unloaded.
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:11 am)RE: What to name it?
Create a new GM division and brand name, much as Toyota did with Lexus (for luxury) and Scion (for youthful hipness and creative funk). The mission of this new brand is clear: making a green future – high efficiency and freedom from the oil sheiks – available in the present. Cutting edge technology and engineering.
Product positioning should be Buick level or between Buick and Cadillac.
This brand will be used by GM for the introduction of new powertrain technologies which would be green-oriented. Pricing of models within this new brand would be at levels that would at least cover the development costs/first year production costs. The products would then either sink or swim. Spinoffs of the most promising and successful technologies of this new brand could find their way into the ranks of GM’s other brands once established and proven.
The long term mission of this brand would be to keep GM at the automotive industry’s forefront in the area of technological breakthroughs in green powertrain advancement. It will provide GM with a proving ground for new technology; where GM can ‘test market’ a new technology and get it established (or not) before the technology moves onto GM’s other brands, which in the meantime will continue their focus on solidifying their traditional product images.
Names for this new brand? No, not ‘Edison’ – too much like ‘Edsel’. No, not ‘Resistance’ either. How about ‘Terra’. It means ‘ground’ in some foreign tongues, which is basic to electricity. Plus, it’s earthy, which should appeal to the green elements of the automobile market. And, it links up well with secondary model names (i.e. Chevy Impala; Buick Invicta)……. Terra Nova; Terra Ampera; Terra Stella….
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:14 am)I wonder if GM’s experience is influencing GM in two ways. One is what Dan Petit has mentioned — the benefits of a more open development process. Seems like there is an upside to having feedback early and often as well as a downside. Some upsides are the trust Dan has focused on and more involved consumers. This dovetails with marketing research which shows that consumers are more interested in participating in the development process.
The second influence would be ways to shorten the development time for new vehicles. We know the Volt development time was shortened by at least a year. We also know that fresh product drives sales and that the new GM Board is looking to get new product into showrooms more quickly. Perhaps the Volt process has helped GM learn new ways to do exactly that.
/This comment was supposed to be in Dan Pettit’s thread below but got misplaced
+3
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:15 am)an angry elf..
+5
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:16 am)I can see why a car is your best friend.
-1
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:28 am)Although the idea of on the road charging is somewhat attractive I can’t help but think that the cost wil be very high to build such an animal.
I would LOVE to be proven wrong here!
-2
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:34 am)Kind of disappointing. This vehicle is how far behind schedule? All this time and the car is still only 90% done, has no hard mpg figures, no hard price tag and no idea what it’s going to be called, how it will look or who’s going to sell it. I guess they were in bankruptcy and something had to be put on the back burner I suppose. I think the real problem with this vehicle is and probably always has been, the price vs. performance equation. I have a feeling that the mileage gains over the standard Equinox isn’t going to be enough to justify the big price tag in consumer’s minds, just like the Tahoe and Silverado are now.
It would have been nice to have had this drive event be more concrete. Like, this car will cost $XXK, it gets XX highway and XX city and this car is 99.9% representative of the production car. It just feels like dithering and second guessing going on rather than a company with new, well defined direction.
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:37 am)If GM wants to find a “home” for the 2-mode Vue program, Chevrolet has it in the 2010 Equinox. This vehicle is essentially a Saturn Vue with refinements. The Saturn Vue 2-mode was designed to fit in the “lower” class vehicle line-up under Buick and Cadillac. That is where Chevrolet is found. GM should roll all viable Saturn vehicles into the Chevrolet brand especially the 2-mode Vue. Just makes sense.
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:55 am)Introducing new tech in the Chevrolet brand puts a ceiling on what price can be charged. Chevrolet = low price image.
Make it a GMC just to get things rolling. GMC image > Chevrolet image. As a GMC, price it higher.
Aug 24th, 2009 (12:25 pm)Did you guys notice the GMC SUV and the Cadillac Sport Wagon driving the course. Nice.
Aug 24th, 2009 (12:26 pm)As nasaman pointed out in #1,
“GM has said the Volt’s 110KW motor is housed in the FWD 2-mode housing”
… which we know is modularized with the engine (a sort of electric transaxle/engine housing). This seems to limit 2-mode to front-wheel drive only. As many truck users have pointed out on this site, this is nearly useless for a ‘real’ truck intended to tow heavy things and launch boats.
If we hear that GM has come up with a 2-mode RWD it might be a preamble to full-size SUVs and trucks; but this won’t happen without a lot of expensive re-engineering, it seems to me. Meanwhile, the Saturn-Buick-Whatever plug-in CUV can be seen as a means of recovering already spent engineering effort; and possibly on the trailing-edge of it’s useful marketability at that.
Maybe they ought to build it as a Vue and sell it to Penske, have their own Chevrolet re-badge (which wouldn’t cost GM that much more), and then see who does better with the concept before building on it for larger vehicles.
EDIT: Full-Volt-size pack, with electric-only RWD (in a slightly larger differential housing), along with 2-mode FWD may just achieve an AWD truck-like vehicle capable of towing, if the RWD is capable of delivering enough of the take-off torque.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (12:34 pm)Don’t worry, Muddy. You will not be proven wrong on this one. Building the charging station network will prove very costly no matter if it is done as an addition at service stations or as part of your local Wal-mart.
Aug 24th, 2009 (12:43 pm)Thanks, Joe. Good information at the link provided. I had seen it before, but it was still interesting a second time around.
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:02 pm)At the end of the day, am I willing to plug my car in EVERY day just to IMPROVE my gas mileage? Not as clear a reward to me as the idea of using “NO GAS” even if the cost/return ratio is better today.
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:05 pm)I like your thinking outside the box.
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:12 pm)That’s what we’re going to find out.
If possible, GM needs to get more of an inkling of this from market research before greenlighting any variant of the original plug-in Vue program.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:20 pm)How is it behind schedule? No other car maker has a plug-in CUV currently. GM will probably be first to market since they are demo the thing already.
It also sounds like they pretty much went back to the drawing board. Different ICE, Volt controller, etc.
Since GM is more open about things now, we are seeing a side of the industry that has been hidden before. Everything was done in secret and then the new models were revealed in the fall. I don’t fault GM for not having it 99.9% complete. Just the opposite. I applaud this new open policy.
I think that GM is testing the waters to see how far they can go with customer acceptance *before* they kill millions in development for something nobody wants. They have been behind the customer awareness curve for so long they have to err in the other direction for a while. We are no longer in the car-magazine-newspaper era. This is the twitter age.
I could be wrong about this because I’m not in marketing, but, the Volt is going to be too weird for 80% of folks until electric travel is more mainstream. (GM-Volt people are mostly in the other 20% I think)
GM has a huge learning curve to overcome especially with people (over 30 or so) that can afford a $40k car.
The reverse of this thinking is that 20% of 12B cars is way more Volts than GM can possibly build!
Don’t get me wrong, I think the Volt and follow-ons will be a huge hit just not in the near term. I think that we will see a bunch of people trading up from their lowly Prius and Honda hybrid econo-boxes.
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:22 pm)TBA,
I look at it like this; currently I don’t drive my truck very much unless I have a trailer to tow because it’s frankly pretty hard on gas. So I have a rather expensive ‘driveway weight’ just parked (and yes licenced and insured) a lot of the time.
If it had electric boost that would allow decent short trip mileage unloaded then it becomes a usable daily use machine.
In pure dollars and cents this makes sense to me.
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:35 pm)“Nocera sees his breakthrough as allowing a home to store electricity not as a means of using hydrogen for transportation. You use the excess electricity from your solar system to create hydrogen during the day and then you use the hydrogen to power your home — and charge your EV — during the night.”
How would that be better than this:
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/article_b0372fd8-3f3c-11de-ac77-001cc4c002e0.html
(Assuming either plan overcomes remaining / unforeseen problems … )
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:38 pm)I thought it was because there were two electric modes; one beyond the single HSD boost at extremely low speeds (for intermediate speeds). I think nasaman could answer this question definitively.
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:42 pm)I think many people overstate the “hassle” of plugging in every night. Yes, if you live in an apartment or park on the street, it would be a hassle, but if you’re among the millions fortunate enough to have a garage, I just don’t see it being that big a deal.
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:49 pm)After listening to the video again I get that that one motor is tuned for ‘slow’ and one for ‘high’ and that should be more efficent.
But really the end result from the drivers seat driving them must be pretty similar. That ain’t a bad thing!
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:52 pm)I’m a Canadian, I sometimes plug in during the summer out of habit!
It’s no inconvenience at all.
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:52 pm)Maybe the Yarii and the Prii got alook at themselves in a mirror and got scared off……..
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:58 pm)I see the FWD SUV/CUV’s and they DO make me shake my head.
If you don’t need a ‘truck’ then get a ‘van’ but there are a LOT of us who would walk before they bought a van (back to the people being people thing again…)
Hence the 2wd SUV.
Build it AWD and tow capable (~4000lbs) and I’ll be interested.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:06 pm)Even with my garage full of my daughter’s junk, I could (and would) plug in every night in the driveway.
I agree with MuddyRoverRob, my truck (4.7l V-8) would be much more useable daily if I had electric drive for the first 12 or so miles. It gets 16mpg and I *do* drive it daily it’s just pretty costly when gas goes above $3.
Since it has 100k miles on it, I would like a nice hybrid Silverado (or GMC) to replace it. I can wait until they get it right as I usually have zero residual when I trade in
Have her ready around fall of 2012 and we can make a deal!
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:17 pm)GM soooo wishes that was the case.
People laughed at the Echo, which was Toyota’s el cheapo car back in ’01 or so. But if you go over to Edmunds and read the owner reviews, a frightfully large percentage of them end with “Love my Echo!” GM only wishes that the last N iterations of, for example, the Malibu had such a happy ending.
The Yaris is doing about as well as the Echo in that regard.
And, of the people I know who bought Priuses, all of them say they only thing they regret about it is that they didn’t buy it sooner.
GM shouldn’t be wasting its time on cars that won’t sell and/or will lose money. They need hits NOW.
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:26 pm)The Saturn Division of GM was designed to do much of what you mentioned. Somewhere along the way the wheels fell off and GM never properly corrected the division. Saturn made some darn good vehicles, but somehow they never really caught on as big with the public as they should have. Part of the blame had to be because they were constantly competing with their sister division in GM more than they were with the foreign makes and domestic brands. Saturn had really started putting a lot of quality vehicles on the road the last couple of years. Too little, too late.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:33 pm)Nerd Shoe
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:34 pm)We are at a similar point in our trucks lives!
143000km, which is about 100000 miles.
1997 4.0 V8.
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:40 pm)I’m waiting for the Volt, but if GM didn’t have the Volt and were producing this SUV I would buy it. I like the looks, but am still holding off for the Volt, saving my pennies for my down payment. I figure with Uncle Sam (opps, Obama) giving me the tax payers money and adding another 10K to that, I shouldn’t have monthly payments that will hurt much.
Thanks for the video Lyle. It’s nice to see GM taking care of you and of us by showing what they have in the works.
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:45 pm)I still think it’s overpowered (255hp + electric), and overweight(4500lbs)…
This might be a great vehicle for Nasaman and MuddyRoverBob, but, comparing these specs to the vehicles in my driveway that work pretty well for me now, I’d be much more inclined to go for a station wagon, MPV, or CUV that was 1200lbs lighter, and had less than half the power of this beast….
Of course, I’m assuming that lower-powered vehicles cost less and use less fuel… Nobody’s said anything about price yet.
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:52 pm)Isn’t that what GM did throughout the 1980s, 1990s, and some of the 2000s?
I thought they put a spoiler in along with the stickers for the Pontiacs, though…
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:55 pm)I pretty much agree with you. It seems like the Saturn Vue was put on the back burner even though it was supposed to be released next year originally. I see no reason why it could not still be released next year unless it is because it is too costly for the gains involved. We just don’t know enough at this time. GM needs to have a CUV like this in their stable that can deliver fuel savings while still providing hauling and pulling capacity for the average Joe. The problem with the GM 2-mode hybrid has always been it is too costly and does not return enough fuel savings to outweigh the additional cost. I thought the Saturn Plug-in Vue was supposed to address both of these failings. I hope GM can rebadge the vehicle quickly and get cost under control. The public will buy this type of CUV if it is very fuel efficient and not too expensive over a regular CUV. Those two ifs are hard to manage at the same time. While I believe GM can overcome the fuel savings problem, I cannot see where they can produce the Plug-in CUV without losing money on each sale. The public will be very doubtful of paying $10,000 more for the fuel savings. They would see other vehicles as better options. It becomes quite a problem for GM to overcome.
Has GM overcome the problems? GM is not talking. And that may be enough of an answer. Although the test drive for Lyle seemed successful, there are many questions unanswered. When are they going to answered? That is anyone’s quess.
Aug 24th, 2009 (3:04 pm)“The problem this vehicle has is that it will be directly compared to Ford’s plug in escape. Ford has been reported testing mpg (on 30 mile cycles) fairly consistently at up to 80 to 120 mpg with a 10 kwh battery pack.”
The Ford Escape Hybrid is rated to tow up to 1000lbs, and that is a very light load.. this car should tow more than that, but I have no idea how much.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (3:09 pm)While I agree with you generally we have to remember GM has broken that mold many times in the Chevrolet Division. Look at the Corvette and the Volt for just two examples. Not hardly what one would consider low priced vehicles. By putting the new 2-mode CUV in the GMC brand, you add another vehicle that dilutes the GMC message more than it is already. GMC was originally designed as the commercial truck component of GM. It grew into also offering consumer trucks with some upscale features over a normal Chevrolet truck. GM has already diluted the GMC brand enough by offering mini-vans and cross-overs (Arcadia) in the GMC line-up. Along with the Yukon and Yukon XL, these vehicles detracts from the commercial vehicle roots of GMC. I have always thought it was terrible of GM to offer these types of vehicles in the GMC, Pontiac, Buick and Oldsmobile lines. I always thought GM just made each division weaker by making them compete against each other more than against Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda and Nissan (to name just a few). Too many brands, too many vehicles in each line and too many vehicle types just confused the buying public. It was much easier to just go to the local Toyota, Nissan or Honda dealer to purchase the vehicle you were looking for because their vehicle designs, production and lines were much more consistent with their over-all strategy. Apparently what they have been doing works. Sales numbers don’t lie.
Aug 24th, 2009 (3:13 pm)It’s a complicated world!
There is room and requirement for many kinds of transport, everything from bare bones basic EV for the Captain to a plush luxury ride for static.
I KNOW I harp on the ‘work’ truck side of things a lot but really do think that is where the biggest gains are to be made.
Honestly my Malibu commuter car is not all that bad on fuel, it may well be much better to replace the thirsty truck instead in terms of fuel saved.
Aug 24th, 2009 (3:14 pm)if it wasn’t so true…..
-5
Aug 24th, 2009 (3:19 pm)No, it takes billions of US tax payers money to put life back to an obvious dead company with only one plausible offering just to sell it for a loss so they can continue to leech from the US public.
-3
Aug 24th, 2009 (3:21 pm)So here’s another product they will spend time and money just so it will not make it to market. Typical “Old GM” still alive and well.
Aug 24th, 2009 (3:22 pm)Same with me. I have a 2000 Nissan Frontier Crew-cab truck that is in very good shape. But it only gets about 16 MPG commuting to work. So, it sits there waiting for me to haul or pull something. If it was a 2-mode truck that got 32 MPG and could go 10 to 20 miles all electric I would drive it over most other vehicles around. GM needs to continue development and get fuel savings up as good as possible while reducing cost. If they don’t release the 2-mode CUV until 2011, they have plenty of time to work this out some more. It would be great if they could release it early (2010) under low production numbers. They should be able to sell 10,000 or these very easily, I believe. Maybe many more. The next year could see some more advancements in savings and extra production. The market is there for a good CUV if GM can design a vehicle that could take advantage of people’s needs and deliver fuel economy and a decent price at the same time. The 2010 Equinox would be a great vehicle for a 2-mode plug-in like this. It is a beautiful vehicle that should capture some good market share and it already delivers good fuel economy, although with the 4-cylinder engine. GM needs a 4-cylinder 2-mode system. Can they do it? I don’t know. But it is one way to reduce cost over a V-6 and increase fuel mileage. Maybe.
Aug 24th, 2009 (3:24 pm)Obviously with the lack of any response this is a big know nothing on a no product.
Aug 24th, 2009 (3:25 pm)Issues like this are the reason that people are not buying these.
My wifes little subaru wagon can out-pull an escape hybrid. (1500lb tow rating)
Keep the V6, set it up to tow ~4000lbs keeping the price well below that of the Lexus hybrid SUV (the name ‘escapes’ me right now…) and people will see the new GM yet-to-be-named (Chevy) as the leader in the class.
+2
Aug 24th, 2009 (3:42 pm)“troll Says:”
Holy Cow!
Truth in advertising!!!
Aug 24th, 2009 (4:11 pm)i certainly think the new battery technology for home electrical storage looks promising. I just hope they can get the cost of the solar panels and installation down a good bit more. It has to become cost effective somewhere sooner than it does now. Otherwise we will find most people will just keep doing the same old thing.
Aug 24th, 2009 (4:19 pm)It’s not necessarily and either/or situation. You may noticed that Dan Nocera, the head researcher on the MIT breakthrough, sits on the battery company’s scientific advisory panel and is quoted in the article you’ve cited.
Basically batteries are expensive and touchy and linear in the amount of energy they can store. Fuel cells are very expensive but very robust and long lived, and hydrogen has a much higher energy density at about 3X the density of gasoline per kg (though it takes up more volume).
Seems too early in the game to predict what energy storage system will win out. You expect one clear winner, but you have to keep in mind that until Prohibition killed production cars ran on ethanol.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (4:26 pm)Luke
If the battery is half of the Volt’s battery then the weight of the battery should be about half of the 400 pounds the Volt’s battery is supposed to weigh. That is 200 pounds. I guess another 200 pounds could be from the V-6 over a 4-cylinder. A fully loaded 2010 Equinox weighs about 3850 pounds. Seven hundred less than this CUV plug-in. So the extra weight of 400 pounds for the battery and larger engine still leaves about 300 pounds unaccounted for. I suppose maybe the 2-mode engine/transmission gearbox setup might account for that extra weight. I don’t know. I am just trying to compare the Saturn Vue 2-mode plugin-in Lyle drove to the 2010 Chevrolet Equinox to see if the same 2-mode system would fit in the Equinox without coming out too heavy also. Seven hundred pounds is a lot of extra weight to carry around and still try to get distance in EV mode and high mileage in ICE mode. It will be interesting to see some real world numbers on the Saturn Vue 2-mode plug-in as driven by Lyle.
Aug 24th, 2009 (4:29 pm)I agree there are more gains to be made by replacing tucks and vans with more fuel efficient hybrid or electric systems. When that starts to happen we will start seeing a lot of fuel savings.
Aug 24th, 2009 (4:32 pm)Hey Lyle,
Moderating this tread was a lot of job today, wasn’t it ? I hope it’s not a new trend. Sorry for my previous comment, I guess I lost my temper.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (4:38 pm)Luke
And along came confusion to the market place for potential GM customers. I think that kind of multi-branding drove customers away. I don’t want to see GM do it in the future. Let each division design and build vehicles that are theirs alone. Cadillac buyers don’t want re-branded Chevrolets or GMCs. Same the other way around. I am still a believer in putting more distance between the Chevrolet and GMC brands if you plan on keeping the GMC brand. Make it distinctive and attractive to some customers who are not looking for a re-branded Chevrolet with a little extra chrome and a slightly better interior fabric. Personally I wish GM would just close the GMC brand and stop further confusion. Plus, Ford makes a big deal out of selling the most trucks in their F-150 line. Would that still be true if you added Chevrolet and GMC sales together? Someone who knows what the sales figures are might could answer that. Ford gets a lot of PR from those commercials claiming that if it is not really true when you consider both Chevrolet and GMC as one set of figures.
Aug 24th, 2009 (4:43 pm)Nasaman wrote:
“The other was along the line, “the 2-mode Vue will have about 50% better gas mileage than the current 4-cyl Vue” (which would be ~24mpg x 1.5 = 36mpg), “and the plug-in Vue should approximately double that” (which is ~36mpg x 2 = 72 mpg).”
No, no, and no. Honestly, have you actually done any REAL research into this?
The GM PR is:
“The Vue Green Line 2 Mode will deliver an estimated 50-percent fuel economy increase over the non-hybrid V-6 Vue.”
V6, not 4Cyl.
And the V6 It is rated 17/24. And you know they mean city (tell me… for all your redundancy talk, why do you always pick the “best” numbers”?). If you doubt: The 2WD Yukon with the 6.0L gets 14/19 and the 2WD Yukon 2-Mode gets 21/22. That is 50% better city and ~16% better highway. I know, this research stuff is harder that rocket science!
So expect ~25/27 for a 2-mode Vue.
So 50 MPG for 2-mode hybrid (city) is probably not too optimistic. Do you think it will match the Volt on the highway?
Aug 24th, 2009 (5:01 pm)oops!.. after digging thru the Ford web site (and they hide it), the Escape Hybrid is not rated for towing.. 0 towing.
Aug 24th, 2009 (5:12 pm)GM already has a RWD 2-Mode system. It is what is installed on the full size trucks.
Aug 24th, 2009 (5:56 pm)I’ve been reading through all of your posts, and I don’t see where this “Plug-In Hybrid” is significantly better than the current “Two-Mode Hybrid” available now in the Silverado and Tahoe.
In the current Two-Mode, the vehicle starts off in all-electric mode to about 15 MPH, then the V-8 starts up and now you are in Electric+Gas Mode to about 30-35 MPH then it switches to All-Gas Mode from then on up. Of course, depending on load and/or how hard you step on the gas, it might bypass the Electric+Gas Mode and go right to all V-8 power. And, keep in mind that this system does not need a plug and it shows a 25% improvement over the standard V-8 in fuel economy.
So, now the new system is All-Electric up to about 25 MPH before a V-6 Engine lights up, followed by “Operation is almost always a mixture of gas engine and electric motors to allow generous power and maximum efficiency. Though like the Volt, GM wants to discharge the battery as much as possible on each trip. I was told the aim of the car is to try to discharge the battery in about 20 miles.”
Now, I’m all for GM coming up with a better system, but where is the improvement over “Two-Mode”? According to the above quote, the battery is expected to be depleted after 20 miles, which is equal to about what? 1 gallon of gas? Translating that to about $3.00 per day since you have to plug it in every night. Then if it costs $1.00 in electricity, your net savings is $2.00 or (0.66) gallons of gas per day.
I think GM wants this new system to impress me. I hate to let you down guys, but considering the price of the Tahoe Hybrid is $52,000.00 and the Silverado Hybrid is about $43,000.00 — I can only guess that this new “Plug-In Hybrid” is going to sell for about $39-$40,000.00 before Rebates and Incentives — This is certainly not going to be worth the savings of just 1 gallon of gas per day.
But, before all of you jump down my throat on this, let me say I have not read enough about the overall function of this new “Plug-In” and I will read more… This past weekend was chock full of last minute bottom feeders with bad credit trying to turn in non-qualifying ‘clunkers’ to help them buy a new car they can’t afford.
Once I am up to speed on why this is supposed to be better, I will change my tune, but for now… I just don’t see it being worth the price. I will tell my wife to hold out for the VOLT.
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:00 pm)Towing capacity of the two mode is an advantage over the FEH, no doubt.
Pretty sure Ford used to say 1,000 lbs for the Escape Hybrid. Don’t know why they backed out of that. (?)
FWIW there’s lots of examples on the net of escape hybrid towing tales. Haven’t found any that said wrecked tranny, but I bet there’s one or two somewhere.
There was one of a lady towing a 2,500# sailboat for about 30,000 miles, but I cannot locate it now.
I’m not saying it’s a selling point for ford (obviously) or would be recommended. I just find it interesting to wonder weather the hybrid transmission “style” that Toyota (3,500#) and Ford (1,000#,0#) uses has an inherent weakness that will not allow towing, or if Ford knows it doesn’t have a lot of power to tow, knows it won’t back up well with a load (electric drive only in reverse) and would rather just limit liability.
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f26/successful-tow-2-000-pounds-19919/
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:01 pm)Per the comparison discussion in the video of the Toyota Prius powertrain (so called 1 mode) vs GM’s 2 Mode hybrid powertrain…
I understand that the Toyota Highlander Hybrid uses a similar hybrid powertrain to the Prius, but the design is different than the Prius. Does the Toyota Highlander Hybrid (or any other Toyota hybrid vehicles) have 2 modes of operation like the GM 2 mode hybrid?
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:05 pm)Creating a NEW GM Division is a great idea! But I doubt that Obama’s Task Force would agree. I think they are focused on rebuilding the image of the remaining divisions and seeing the launch of the VOLT through no matter what. Barrack’s re-election depends on it.
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:08 pm)True on the Escape and I believe the 2-mode Vue was sepc’d with 3000 or 3500lb towing. The Escape really isn’t that big. Cargo capacity isn’t much more than my Vibe.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:10 pm)People are buying the Escape Hybrid faster than Ford can make them and they are charging ~$7K premium. Seems crazy now that you can buy the new Equinox with more interior room an 32mpg hwy for much less, unless you do a lot of city driving.
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:17 pm)That was true but that was yesterday before $4 gas and a bad recession. A great move GM could make right now woud be to call the Orlando a CUV but give it the functionality of a minivan. Offer it with EREV and 4-cylinder, 6-speed drivetrain options.
-1
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:35 pm)I think both GM and Ford will fail in the next five years. Since the major auto parts suppliers are almost all gone (except a few), Us lose the leadership in auto technology and just like other manufacturing, it will never come back to the US.
I only intend to buy Honda, Toyota that are made in Japan.
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:37 pm)Me too.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:38 pm)There is just so much of a difference between the Volt as a product and everything else as a product. “Surprise”, it seems to me, would be the worst thing to do, since expectations as to the huge powertrain differences could never be educated so quickly.
It has taken these two years to begin to cause strong and dedicated educational movement even here. As well, the best ways to find out your market for something as revolutionary as Volt is to do it exactly as GM has been doing it.
Those that “protesteth too much”, are not Volt customers.
Displacement of what is really bothering them ought not to unfairly be misplaced upon Volt. So, if complaining happens a year before release, what do you think is going to happen if they actually do get their hands on one?
You can not always immediately (via “surprise”) be certain who your customer is. This is an ongoing exploratory definition that can change somewhat from month to month, especially if there is some really strong, yet flaky misinformation and individual influences out there.
Do you know what scares the living daylights out of marketing departments? To find out that their main customers are high school girls. (Not to offend high school girls in general), but fads are a strong component there, and fads are the most unpredictable and scary thing for marketing departments.
The same thing goes for products that might be (mis)considered a “flash in the pan”. Hot one minute, and burned out the next.
Being open here is exactly only one of many perfect marketing observation tools GM must always have with this site.
From what I see every day, I try to minimize my time in front of any hard working shop owner or tech, if I come to understand that attention-commitments for new learning are just not going to be there. (They are at far stronger risk to go under, or at least continually need to pull out of their pocket, funding to remain in business).
It really is my strong view that GM is getting nothing but the very best of “good” at all times with being open. It is cutting all manner of business risk at many many levels, and, is accelerating “risk step-down points” for GM with these frank, direct, sometimes blunt, sometimes awkward discussions, with the intent to always try to help. It does indeed.
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:56 pm)Teenage girls frighten everyone (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:05 pm)How about we all just agree that people buy vehicles for many reasons – some of which even involve thought.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:07 pm)Yes. We need as many PHEVs as possible … anything under $30K or $35K (after rebates) should have no trouble getting sold.
A lot of us have put off buying new vehicles because of upcoming EVs.
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:07 pm)I realize it’s blasphemy on this site but, due to the high cost of the Volt’s 16kwh battery and warranty ($20k), do you think anyone at GM has considered making a “2- Mode Plug In” (2MPI) version of the Volt ? Ten mile low speed EV travel combined with ?? mpg gas assist travel (for maybe around $25k) doesn’t sound to shabby…
I don’t know if it’s technologically feasable but, IMO, is certainly something to consider. And yeah, I know, it would just be another Prius competitor instead of a Prius killer but, it would be a great way to get your foot in the door…
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:22 pm)My apologies to all. I should have watched the video first, THEN read all of your posts…
Guys… That video shows Lyle doing the EXACT same type of test drive that I do for my Tahoe Hybrid and Silverado Hybrid customers. From the description, the only thing that makes this new is the 1/2 VOLT pack, a plug, and a V-6 instead of a V-8. It appears to be little different than the Tahoe Hybrid. Stop by any Chevy dealer and you can see and do everything Lyle just did in that video.
That being said, I sure hope they brought the costs down to make that system worth it.
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:42 pm)Hell Yeah!
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (7:44 pm)I like the GMC out the left side window while Lyle is is waiting to get on the course. And the Caddy wagon passed by. Looks good.
Lyle your a great guy doing all this. Thanks.
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:19 pm)Loboc said:
“How is it behind schedule?”
———————————————————————————————
It was supposed to come out last year, and then they said mid this year. Now?? For a car that was supposed to be in dealerships now, I would think that even with bankruptcy, the mules would be more than 90% and hard numbers would be known. Hence the disappointment.
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:13 pm)That’s a really good idea for near term sales that I hope GM puts off for a long time. Here’s why. The Volt is designed to promulgate the all electric drive train and popularize it, gaining competency, leapfrogging competitors and positioning GM as a go to company for efficient, pollution free cars.
A more conventional hybrid option may be swept up in the Volt’s green coat tails and sell a lot of vehicles. Or it may so water down the concept that the idea of pollution free efficient cars and GM technological leadership is completely lost. The Volt will also require tremendous development costs to ultimately make it affordable.
Two lines in development, diluting the Volt concept and it’s public perceptions, and pushing out the date of profitability ( investing in two separate drive trains for the unique Volt platform equals a lot more dollars at risk before the production processes mature into profits) for GM would be a dangerous risk, even if it resulted in more short term sales IMO. Focus on lowering the cost of a dedicated platform, as Toyota has done with the Prius, would be a better use of Volt team ingenuity and invested dollars for the mid and long terms.
It’s a tempting idea, 10 or 20 all electric miles, but I hope GM will not fall into that, soon at least for a car that has to use gas.
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:15 pm)That’s a really good idea for near term sales that I hope GM puts off for a long time. Here’s why. The Volt is designed to promulgate the all electric drive train and popularize it, gaining competency, leapfrogging competitors and positioning GM as a go to company for efficient, pollution free cars.
A more conventional hybrid option may be swept up in the Volt’s green coat tails and sell a lot of vehicles. Or it may so water down the concept that the idea of pollution free efficient cars and GM technological leadership is completely lost. The Volt will also require tremendous development costs to ultimately make it affordable.
Two lines in development, diluting the Volt concept and it’s public perceptions, and pushing out the date of profitability ( investing in two separate drive trains for the unique Volt platform equals a lot more dollars at risk before the production processes mature into profits) for GM would be a dangerous risk, even if it resulted in more short term sales IMO. Focus on lowering the cost of a dedicated platform, as Toyota has done with the Prius, would be a better use of Volt team ingenuity and invested dollars for the mid and long terms.
It’s a tempting idea, 10 or 20 all electric miles, but I hope GM will not fall into that, soon at least, for a car that has to use gas, as a step backwards for Voltec, even if it would net more short term sales.
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:19 pm)Lyle, my bad for the double post, I don’t know if it’s due to my connection or up dated browser, but I’m a noob again!
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:45 pm)From what Lyle wrote, it’s not clear if a driver can choose all-electric drive. The motor could just turn on when you might not want it, even if that means not getting a huge acceleration surge. For example, I don’t mind if it’s a bit sluggish, I want all-electric mode until it’s absolutely necessary and when that happens, I want to have control (when the ECO option is selected).
How about a haunting voice that comes on when in ECO mode and you hit the accelerator pedal hard that says, “Warning. You are in ECO mode, please scream loudly to disengage ECO mode and switch to OMG mode.”
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:09 pm)…so many of those are built right herein in the USA
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:55 pm)After 2 beers, a (mild) “ahaa” moment. The HSD/eCVT style transmissions are most likely not the problem in towing scenarios. The likely weak link suspect would be the atkinson cycle engine (which neither the higlander hybrid or the 2 mode vue use).
/atkinson = better fuel economy = (but) weak torque = bad tow capacity when the battery reserve runs out
Aug 25th, 2009 (12:26 am)@ Corvette guy
You are totally mistaken in may aspects of the 2-mode trucks, such as being :all-gas: after 35 mph.(I have one) It’s “blended” electric and fuel, even at steady state highway speeds (that’s the mode-2 aspect that other hybrids lack) It’s actually (under ideal throttle, temperature and SOC conditions) electric only to ~35mph on increasing speed and switches back to electric only at 40-45mph on decel. The only time you are 100% gas is when you really put your foot into it OR under very high loads (e.g. climbs while heavily loaded or towing) I LOVE MY 2-MODE TRUCK and hope to see this 2-mode FWD powertrain in small SUV soon in either Buick/Chev/GMC trim (circle any – I will own any)
WOT
Aug 25th, 2009 (12:58 am)Oh and MY apologies to Corvette Guy as I see he retracted some of his earlier comments. I agree the operation of the “plug-in” version of the 2-mode hybrid in this video appears to be IDENTICAL to that of the full-size. However I was under the understanding that the plug-in version had a separate “add-on” LiOn depletion battery and a much extended electric only max speed over and above the “regular” 2-modes (eg 50mph) for a limited period. (but alas such was not the case in the video) Then once the depletion battery was at ~20% it switched over to the regular NiMh pack and operated as a regular 2-mode (in terms of max 30-35mph max electric only creep mode once again) until the depletion battery was station charged.
There’s a good article in Wikipedia regarding how the speeds of the 2 electric motors affect the relative speeds of the gearset members to create an electrically variable ratio transmission with 4 fixed gears when higher loads (and engine efficiency) dictate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Mode_Hybrid
WOT
Aug 25th, 2009 (2:09 am)Not really.. The Highlander uses an overgrown version of the Prius drivetrain, 2 motors and one planetary gearset.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/toyota_to_intro.html
GM’s 2-Mode system is basically two motors and two planetary gearsets.. a set of 5 mechanical clutches can select between the two planetary gearsets, both optimized for two different rpm regions… the so called 2 Modes.. unfortunately this added complexity increases cost and complexity.
+1
Aug 25th, 2009 (5:42 am)I agree with you there. Why can’t they build a car with some serious space in it without jacking the weight up close to 5000 Lbs.
My old 98 Olds minivan is about 3800 Lbs and has more room in it than the new Traverse that is over 4500 Lbs.
I think part of the problem is that my old car would not compare well on Govt and Ins Company crash testing.
Do cars really need to be this safe? As a motorcycle driver I am willing to assume some risk if they could make a lighter car with much better mpg. I still want the space inside, however.
Aug 25th, 2009 (7:43 am)I would need to do some digging but I have read the research (non-MIT) where there is an aluminum alloy being developed. The point is, just when the Volt can make a profit the hydrogen group of researchers are completely confident they will be production ready (and profit ready too). Since they will have the world stage to develop cars for, and GM admits they are still developing H2 cars, the electric car seems to be a stop gap measure.
I still would like the EEStor stuff to be real, if just for laptops…
Aug 25th, 2009 (10:37 am)How about getting the States to include charging stations at their rest stops on major highways.
Aug 25th, 2009 (12:12 pm)I agree about the work-trucks making a bigger impact on fuel consumption! But I don’t own (or need) a work-truck, so I can’t do anything about that directly.
My town has purchased a couple of hybrid city-buses, and they expect to make the hybrid-premium back over the life of the bus on fuel-savings. I think they’re doing something similar with a bucket truck for the town arborists, and if that works out, they’ll buy more hybrid work-trucks. Cool stuff!
Aug 25th, 2009 (12:15 pm)+1, I can’t add anything to it — but it’s an insightful read.
I’d like to see those numbers, too!
Aug 25th, 2009 (6:14 pm)10 miles on presumably half 8 kwhrs. Huh? Can’t be right.