GM demonstrated the beautiful Cadillac Converj concept at the Detroit Auto Show in January. It was after the company’s financial collapse had started but before bankruptcy reorganization.
The Converj would use the same Voltec propulsion system as the Volt though tuned for greater performance. Besides a stunning and already sufficiently aerodynamic exterior design so too was the interior stunning with its jaw dropping solid touch surface center console
Though from the beginning Bob Lutz wanted to bring the car into production there was substantial opposition both within the company and from the government’s Auto Task Force which questioned the economics of such an expensive model. Lutz told GM-Volt.com at the time the car would be priced at “two Volts” or roughly $80,000.
All of the strong pushback apparently forced the car to be shelved by the Spring.
Now that Lutz is in charge, and the company has been reorganized, he and several other executives are apparently trying to revive the program. Its principal opponents, Troy Clarke who headed GM North America and Mark McNabb who ran Cadillac, have both left the company.
Even though Lutz is pushing for the Converj, the program still remains unfunded.
The car, if it makes it, would be aimed at the wealthy green crowd, and indeed the high cost of first generation Voltec technology has always fueled the argument it should debut in a Cadillac rather than a Chevrolet anyway.
If Lutz’ electric Cadillac does make it to market it will likely be given a new name, and wouldn’t arrive until 2014, more than three years after the Volt.
Source (BusinessWeek)
This entry was posted on Sunday, August 23rd, 2009 at 8:02 am and is filed under Cadillac, Converj. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (8:07 am)Honestly, I was thinking the Volt was aimed at the “wealthy green crowd”… The more Voltec, the better !
+3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (8:07 am)Go for the Caddy, Bob —this is the one that should have been first (as Lyle mentions above)!!!
Oh, and get a voltec SRX on the way too!
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (8:36 am)Here is the opportunity to do all the bells and whistles. Every compromise that went into Volt can be reversed.
- 5 passenger
- trunk (not hatchback)
- show car body
- rwd or awd
- rims
- no tunnel
- larger genset output possibly diesel
- next gen batteries
And while you’re at it. Get some Volts on the ground! (First 500 by July 1st, 2010.)
Aug 23rd, 2009 (8:43 am)Or maybe a smaller lighter ICE/gen/set and a larger (200 kw) traction motor.
-13
Aug 23rd, 2009 (8:55 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:04 am)AS has been said, the more Voltec the better. As an aside, the “revenge of the Electric Car” will be released when the Volt will – late 2010.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:06 am)Build it and I will trade in my Volt for it.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:18 am)keith,
Dibs on the used Volt!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:19 am)I think Bob ought to be given “carte-blanche” (blank check) for it to go forward.
The reasons would be very easy to justify, but also, the combined business models from competitors ought to be utilized.
Here is precisely where the better-funded America can do their part in assisting the rest of us accelerate into Voltec (possibly helping to reduce final Volt cost a slight amount with economies of scale).
While yes, the cost for a Converj would be far higher, I would really respect that a very small portion of Voltec developmental costing could be somehow shared and distributed to abate the Volt costing a bit.
As well, I would also *deeply respect* that some of America’s wealth was wisely directed toward Converj if it did not slow the production numbers of Volt. A slight cost abatement for Volt, would definitely be another way for additional deep respect to affix onto Converj.
Pre-order warrants (if I am using the term correctly) would be a formally-placed order for a Converj, and, fully prepaid in escrow. Market testing could easily go forward based on the number of prepaid orders in escrow.
“Good things come slow”, is a term many of us who plan 3, 5, and even 7 years ahead within our businessplans understand very well. I think Bob should be given the complete go-ahead if, say, 10,000 prepaid commitments (ratio for 100,000 for production?) could be escrowed, even if delivery was 24 to 30 months away, since escrow accounts earn interest (which is pretty much the lions-share of what matters for accountancy).
+12
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:32 am)Whats the point of a fuel cell range extender? I mean whats the point of an E-REV that still leaves you stranded on the highway? You get the whole point of E-REV right..?
+4
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:44 am)Off subject a little, but here’s an interesting link:
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/107571/toyota-holds-back-in-race-to-go-electric?mod=family-autos
I like the last sentence:
“Electric cars are a disruptive technology, and Toyota knows that,” Mr. Shimizu said. “I wouldn’t say Toyota is killing the electric vehicle. Perhaps Toyota is scared.”
-9
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:44 am)GM and collaborators have installed a hydrogen infrastructure in a few urban areas to support their Equinox trials, so they can certainly be sold in Los Angeles and New York to start. GM can still have an ICE Converj, but they should also field a fuel cell version.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:45 am)My last ‘Caddy’ was a 1999 Catera and I loved that car! There has been so much bad press on the Catera but my ’99 model ran like a champ, was fun to drive and the leather interior and design had just the right touch of class and sportiness.
If GM brings out the Converj and prices it in the $50k range it will take off. Price it at $80k and it will flounder.
Do you want to sell 1000 cars or 100,000 cars? That’s the difference between an $80k price and $50k.
+7
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:50 am)Jason, you do understand that only a handful of hydrogen pumps exist in the entire US?
That is an incredibly stupid idea, it would not only bring the cost of the Converj to a laughable level, but make finding fuel for it ludicrously difficult.
Use the existing infrastructure, we have gas now, we have a charging infrastructure in place for at-home charging and some people may even manage at work too.
Hydrogen is crap and needs to be dropped ASAP so we can move onto electric vehicles with hundreds of miles of range, for now, the Voltec powertrain can get us where we need to go without range anxiety. The fuel-cell would make it even worse to people, they would literally have to plan their routes around finding those hydrogen filling stations.
Edit: Not only that, there is no reason whatsoever to make it ‘more powerful’ than the Volt’s engine, it’s not driving the car, it’s maintaining a state of charge.
+3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:02 am)Hey, zipdrive,
Thanks for that link!! It was really helpful!!
I think Toyota is afraid of “lead-footed” driving characteristics which may greatly compromise BEV longevity standards if they did make a BEV. And, I think that they are correct in being that way. Toyota is not going to oversell to their customers. This is why E-REV is the only way to go, it seems to me.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:04 am)The Converj is a no-brainer to me. The “opponents” I just read about is what suprised me. Why would Clarke and Mcnabb oppose this car? No clue on that one. Perhaps with that mentality, it was good they “moved on”.
The car is stunning to look at and personally I prefer the interior of the Converj over the Volt. It has been said here many times, that the cost of the Voltec platform can be better absorbed with this car. I am huge believer in that idea. I hope Lutz gets his way and this car is made.
Now about the name change…I don’t know what these car companies have against giving cars names instead of this letter & number chaos. More confusion for the consumer IMO.
As Tag says, LJGTVWOTR!
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:11 am)Ditto. The Converj is one nice looking car and as an electric it would put most of the EV competition to shame.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:14 am)Beautiful car, love it, love it, love it! Keep the name too. If it could be done for 50k I will buy one. If 80k then you are getting further into the Tesla Model S or the Fisker. Then you better be careful…..
-1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:14 am)BREAKING NEWS!
Lutz announces 40 mpg Chevy hybrid that will debut for under $23,000! This yet unnamed hybrid will have a plug in option (6kwh battery pack at an est. $4,500 cost ) that is projected to yield over 80 mpg in 30 miles of daily driving.
….. oh wait a minute, guess that was ME that was dreaming.
/!maximum’s dreams make much more sense!
-25
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:18 am)(click to show comment)
-2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:32 am)BREAKING NEWS!
Lutz announces 4 seat compact BEV with a range of over 100 miles! This yet unnamed battery electric vehicle will feature a 25 kwh battery pack and is expected to be priced in the mid $20k’s.
….. oh, oh. There I go again. Thinking all CRAZY.
/how much was that EREV caddy going to cost again, Bob?
//!I’m going to write my congressman and urge that he approve funding for this important project immediately!
+10
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:39 am)The Govt has dropped support for hydrogen in vehicles and the Next Generation Nuclear Plant that was supposed to make hydrogen is currently being downgraded in temperature to the point that hydrogen production will no longer make sense (The high temperature material issues are simply not resolved yet).
Unfortunately, massive hydrogen generation and distribution along with mass produced fuel cell vehicles is still something that is over the horizon. There is no serious plan underway to make this a reality.
Remember that Fuel cells are just a way to use Hydrogen as an electron storage unit just like a battery. You pump energy into the system to create hyrogen which holds the energy and then the fuel cell gets this energy back from the hydrogen and sends it to the engine. Fuel cells will remain in the laboratory for some time to come.
Battery tech, however, is another story. Developments are underway and commercial mass production of large batteries is starting now. Add to this the fact that electricity is already everywhere and I have never seen a hydrogen refilling station and you have your short term answer.
Fuel cells may be coming but so is fusion and room temperature superconductivity. In the mean time, I have to buy a real car to drive to work.
+9
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:41 am)“Hydrogen is inevitable?” Yeah, sometime in 2050. After the sea level has risen enough to submerge half of Florida. And, MOST IMPORTANTLY, after all the oil is burned up – CHA CHING! [edit follows:] And the oil companies have banked all the profits at our expense (to our budget and our health and environment).
They don’t call them FOOL CELLS for nothing – - we’d all be fools for believing that fool cell cars will get us off our addiction to oil before it’s all been pumped out of the ground.
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:42 am)The article was originally printed in the New York Times; it states “Mr. Tateuchi, the former race car engineer, said. Regretting his gas-guzzling creations, he founded the Japan E.V. Club 15 years ago”. That shows that the Japanese were thinking about electric a long time ago. Toyota and Panasonic are targeting the battery industry. Its amazing that they are ditching production of an all electric for the time being while forging ahead with development of batteries for the automotive industry. 2012 is not to long after the Volt goes to market so to say they are scared isn’t correct. The Cash for Clunkers program may just infuse enough cash in their coffers to prevent them from having two years of hugh losses.
The really important part of the New York Times article lies in its statements that show the time for electric vehicles is now come to fruition.
Investment in battery research is on the uptake. Development of charge stations is already on the move and in some cases seen in some cities.
IMHO, the shift from combustion engines to electric drive will happen almost over night. Once the consumer realizes all the advantages electric drive offers, more and more will want to own them.
Hope that Lutz succeeds in bringing the Converj to market sooner. GM is maintaining its reputation for fine looking cars. If I could afford to buy a Converj, you would find me close to first in line to buy one.
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:44 am)The following excerpt is copied from motortrend article on the equinox.
The point of the article is that range anxiety is a pain in the arse and that H2 stations are not easy to get to.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/112_0812_2008_chevrolet_equinox_fcv_first_test/index.html
Two minutes earlier, I was optimistically nursing the Equinox along at an energy-sipping 64 mph-until I realized that my MapQuest route included a long steep climb on a hilly toll road. Quick math: It’s 56 miles to the station. My range, it says here on the dash, is 63. But since leaving our San Bernardino photo location (where all these carefree pictures of the Equinox and flying water were shot), the car’s range has been dropping a lot faster than the odometer’s been climbing. And now there’s this hill to factor in. If I run dry of H-juice out here, the AAA ain’t coming to my rescue. So I’ve pulled off the freeway to ponder Plan B. But what the hell is Plan B?
My map of hydrogen stations shows one 5000psi 24-hour option within 50 miles, a city-run multifuel rig in Riverside. Never been there. I enter its address into the Equinox’s nav system. 34 miles. At about 30 degrees off-course from where I’m headed. Okay, so now I’ve got to drive 20-odd miles out of my way to get to a station with only enough H2 pressure for a half tank of fuel (it prefers 10,000 psi)? To gain maybe 90 more miles? The good news is that the boxy Equinox is managing 43 miles per kilogram of hydrogen, pretty much equal to 43 miles per gasoline gallon. Astounding when you consider that it’s 46 percent heavier than the slippery Prius that does about the same numbers.
-23
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:45 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:46 am)I read a different Toyota commentary yesterday where they estimated the demand for plugins as “from 3500 – 50000″. How’s THAT for a pinpoint estimate?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:56 am)As Tag says….
With a distinct emphasis on the VOLT’S wheels.
I’m all for more choices, including the Caddy. It’s just WAY out of my price range (the Volt is barely in my price range). I’m STILL hoping that we’ll get a nice surprise about the Volt’s initial price (and yes, I know how unlikely that is).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:59 am)PS: The concept car that’s ALMOST as “provocative” in design and styling as the Converj is the AWD Provoq, which one might guess was the inspiration for the SRX —keep the FWD voltec & add rear wheel motors like the Provoq. It should sell like crazy!!!
+3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:02 am)Carcus1
Shame on you. I was really swallowing hard at that 23K number. I’ll dedicate my coronary in your name (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:05 am)The world is experiencing the spectacular rebirth of the electric car. Evidenced by the growing number of name brand manufactures joining the production party.
This movement may be 80% dream right now, but is sure expand as vehicles like the Electric Caddy, cross over, city bus, delivery van, boat, and big rig catch the EREV wave.
The working name “Converj” is a bit tough to chew. I suggest “Silencio” or “Carolina”.
Volt, Orlando, (Cruze?) and Silencio in 2012.
=D~
-14
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:06 am)(click to show comment)
+12
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:08 am)Production, transport, storage, INFRASTRUCTURE….
Sorry buddy there are a LOT of challenges to be solved before H2 makes even half a bit of sense. Though I live in the hydrogen fueling mecca you mention, it would still be inconvenient to drive a fuel cell car (If I go on trips I’m screwed since I have no backup car, etc).
-2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:09 am)Does GM have any plans to make a HIGH VOLUME, affordable, reliable car that can compete with Honda’s Civic and Accord and Toyota’s Corolla and Camry?
All the Bob Lutzian high-end models won’t help when they sell in the low-single thousands per year.
They are a luxury. I don’t mean they’re a luxury *car* … They’re a luxury for Lutz, a totem to his ego, a monument to his inability to drive a product mix that can compete, that GM can’t afford.
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:10 am)Its a matter of what will be cheaper.
For fuel cells we must
1. Make fuel cells cheaper (still not demonstrated)
2. Develop a hydrogen distribution system similar to gas
3. Develop means to mass produce hydrogen
Questions.
Is it cheaper to pump energy into a system and create hydrogen and then deliver hydrogen to people who use a fuel cell to convert it to electrical energy, or is it cheaper to just send the electrical energy to the peoples homes directly?
How long can you store hydrogen and do you need to pump energy into it to maintain it?
How much do you loose in transportation?
By the time an H2 system is available, are ultra caps going to be ready or are batteries going to be developed to the point of being more effective than hydrogen at storing electrons?
I just don’t see any of the Fuel cell issues being addressed at a practical level. The Govt is broke. They may be the only ones that could make this happen. Businesses are not going to be able to overcome the big issues.
For now, batteries are cheaper and will get the bulk of development money since they are actually going to be sold and on the street in large numbers over the next 5 years. Fuel cells will remain a concept for some time.
+6
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:10 am)nuclearboy,
I NEVER want a car where I have to “do the math” re miles. Period.
Thanks for the link.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:12 am)Agree w/ everything except it will prolly have to stay 4 passenger with a tunnel…the point is that it’s guts are a Volt and changing them means a big expense. And in my view diesel only for Europe, especially since it will detract from the EV drive experience which must be silent and refined for a Cadillac.
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:15 am)I agree with the poor planning idea. But Tagamets comment on the planning is the issue. “I NEVER want a car where I have to “do the math” re miles.”
Who wants a car where you have to plan out your trip like some kind of desert wanderer zig-zagging between the watering holes? I want to jump in my car and go. I think that is the point.
+3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:18 am)A BEV car under thirty thousand is of the highest importance. So getting battery costs under control is a high priority. In this economic climate, value not luxury is the issue. The Volt comes closer to that goal than the Converj. But I’d rather have a Volt than a BEV, at least for the next ten years or so. The Volt seems to be the ultimate transition vehicle.
+5
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:23 am)I don’t think Hydrogen is inevitable. In fact, I don’t think it should ever have been pursued in the first place. Hydrogen is much less efficient than BEV’s, it only gets you a possible distribution system to allow fast fueling. But that’s so expensive, it just doesn’t make sense.
If we focus on improving BEV technology instead, there will be no need (or desire) to develop a hydrogen infrastructure.
This improved BEV tech could also come to fruition quicker than expected if EEStor tech pans out. I know they have bold claims, but if Lockheed Martin has a contract with them, there’s got to be some reality behind their fanfare.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:27 am)Loboc,
I like the idea of 500 by 7/4/2010! Now is that 500 WHEELS or 500 preproduction Volts? (g). Either would be fantastic.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:30 am)City buses are already electric and hybrid-electric. I see hybrid and fuel-cell buses almost daily.
http://www2.actransit.org/environment/fuelcell_photogallery.html
http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/?p=1911
http://www.sfmta.com/cms/ains/trollhist.htm
San Francisco has pretty much always had electrified city buses (“Trolley buses” that draw power from overhead lines). There was no way they could get fully-loaded diesel or gas buses to start on hills without destroying transmissions. Plus San Francisco owns a hydro-electric dam, so electricity is “free” (as much as any Bureau of Reclamation or Army Corps of Engineers built dam is “free”).
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:32 am)I agree. $80k is just way too much. $60,000 should be TOPS and try to price it so that you’re making a modest profit and just move vehicles. Even rich people, unless they’re movie stars trying to make an image, still have a limit, and I think most people it’s $50-60,000.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:36 am)Ham,
I had an old (very old) 1950 Caddy, back in the mid ’60′s (19, not 18) and it ran great. Of course, gas was significantly less than a buck a gallon, but a $2/hour summer job helped me get through college. Excellent vehicle (unless you wanted to stop quickly).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:42 am)Dave K,
Wouldn’t Silencio mean “Shut UP!”. Maybe Carolina since they are doing great things with their electric infrastructure.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:45 am)—-
I think Bob ought to be given “carte-blanche” (blank check) for it to go forward.
—
Hardly. Lutz wants to build the cars he likes. Not what the consumers want to buy. He shouldn’t anywhere near making decisions on what to produce.
-1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:49 am)Well put.
Bob Lutz cares only about what he likes – I don’t think he cares about what the market wants. He is still stuck in the muscle cars era (as are a LOT of people here).
+3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:51 am)Oh man, Statik’s fingers must be just itching to reply to this. I can’t do him justice, but basically old Lutzer has infamously green lit and developed dozens of vehicles to market that are INSANELY cool and usually extremely powerful, they are the cars that an auto enthusiast would drive, a muscle car macho man or whatever, and they never get past 20,000 sales. Lutz is just pushing them because he wants Vin #1 off the line and drives it home. The best examples I can think of are the Pontiac G8 and Solstice/Sky which both are at sub 20,000.
Sales always are niche to the muscle car guys and the mainstream Americans keeps buying Toyota and Hondas because they are making inexpensive and fuel efficient vehicles. Only a very small percent of people care that the 0-60 of their car is under 5 seconds, they just know they can’t afford a $30,000 car that gets 15 mpg. They’ve got bills to pay and mouths to feed, now more than ever after we’ve lost so many jobs in our country and many companies are struggling. So GM ends up dumping hundreds of millions of engineering money into a car that they end up only selling 20,000 copies of.
This is the thinking behind the CHEVROLET Volt. Get it in the mainstream, with as mainstream a price as possible.
The Cadillac Converj reeks of this. It’s going to be insanely priced, sure it will be cool, and has the Cadillac name, but its still just an EREV sedan. At the price of two Volts ~$80,000, it will be competing directly with the Fisker Karma which is $87,000, which is actually pretty dang cool. Maybe even the Gen 2 Fisker Karma. There’s an extremely small market segment of filthy rich green people (although it might seem like there is if you live in Hollywood).
-11
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:54 am)(click to show comment)
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:55 am)2010 EV field is getting more crowded.
BYD is going to release its BEV in 2010 – in small numbers, though. It is $40K and can go 186 miles on a charge !
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/23/report-byd-pushes-american-ev-launch-ahead-to-2010/
—-
Last we heard, the all-electric e6 was capable of accelerating to 100 km/h (62 mpg) in ten seconds with a maximum speed of 160 km/h (99 mph). Perhaps more importantly, the car’s range has been quoted at 300km (186 miles) on a full charge of its lithium ion battery pack.
—-
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:55 am)Agree with you on the making the Volt priority, Tag. I am just implying that GM should roll the Converj out shortly after the Volt launch to keep the steam going for electric cars and help defray the cost of the platform.
side note: I was thinking about this the other day but never had the chance to post it…regarding the decision to drop the Buick PHEV crossover, I think a Cadillac SRX would nicely fill that slot.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:00 pm)Although with EESTOR, it seems from recent published statements from them, that they might prefer industrial applications firstly (remote stationary applications). That might hint at some practicality issues with converting all that raw energy in high densities to lower usage rates relative to BEV.
Also, from the article about the new lower temperature solid-sulphur battery, which described high costs to convert with very high voltages, (even though it is a different topic, yet the concept might apply here with EESTOR also), the ultimate extra costs for EESTOR to work for EV moving battery applications safely is a question likely to come up in the future.
Lockheed Martin applications-interest in EESTOR might not convert over to credibility for the public motoring-electrification of EV, since military apps do not generally need to address public safety issues as much.
+4
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:03 pm)this is an unworkable idea for the vast majority of the population, it is not however a STUPID idea.
Lets keep things friendly here guys, we can disagree and not resort to outright insults.
+4
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:03 pm)GM is looking at the high price Volt as temporary….like LCD’s, televisions and all new high tech products were. Eventually, the Volt will be low cost and sold throughout the world.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:06 pm)There is no other brand anywhere that would make a more definitive statement than a true electric Cadillac. You all know Cadillac led lots of engineering advances over nearly 100 years. GM would be missing a very profitable model by not moving ahead with the Converj, which is gorgeous. Saying its the equal of a Tesla is a gross understatement. The burning question is simple – what’s its drivetrain? We all know Li-ion technology is on the cusp of a breakthrough. My guess is with new EV models announced several times a week, the intense competition will turn up a real game-changing chemistry before 2011. And Cadillac, even if Chief Lutz has to break a few arms, will be there.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:07 pm)The Converj is a car that I would love to see on the road, since it’s cool-looking, and is probably very efficient
But it is not a car for me. With a kid on the way, 2-door cars don’t match my needs anymore, and I just prefer to drive cars without luxury badges. The luxury brand usually costs more than the Ford/Toyota/Chevy equivalent — and all of that visible schnazzyness just doesn’t reflect my personality at this time.
But I sure would be happy to see a Converj zoom by me with the engine off. I think I’d cheer.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:09 pm)not sure if this has been discussed, but wholesale changes in fuel type have taken place before …
http://inventors.about.com/od/lstartinventions/a/lighting.htm
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:10 pm)+1 for Tagamet!
I also never want to do math to figure out how I’ll make it to the next fuel station.
That’s why I’ll be driving a pure electric vehicle. Electric outlets are literally everywhere and enterprising business owners will begin to add charging stations at all their parking spaces. They know that this will bring in customers who will stay long enough to purchase a LOT of their stuff / food / beverages / whatever, plus the profit they’ll make off each kilowatt hour sold.
Meanwhile, “gas” stations will become more and more rare as electric cars take over the roads and governments quit “looking the other way” about their leaking toxic fluids into the groundwater. It will start as a trickle but end as a landslide against “gas” stations. The smart station owners will begin a gradual switch to electric charging posts located in adjacent lots or other currently unused places within the property lines. It would not impact current business and would open up new sources of revenue. Win, win.
+6
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:12 pm)I’ve never seen a hydrogen pump, and I seek out gas stations that provide alternative fuels. I’ve put E85 and B5 into my out-of-warranty my-problem-to-fix vehicles at various times.
I don’t think hydrogen is inevitable. Since you have to make hydrogen, it’s essentially a battery chemistry where you can physically separate the charger. I see no evidence that it will be the dominant battery-chemistry. It’s possible that it could be (hydrogen has good energy per unit mass, but poor energy per unit volume), but I’d say that hydrogen is far from inevitable for anything other than space-launch vehicles. The Hydrogen Economy does sound cool, so I’d like for it to work — but I’m not holding my breath.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:14 pm)I’ve had several gasoline cars where I’ve had to do the math…. Broken gas gages, efficiency-sapping mechanical problems, massive engine-oil-consumption (1 qt every 200 miles), and so on. They’re all in the junkyard now, but they should have been in the junkyard back when I was driving them…
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:15 pm)Hummm, a showcase for Voltec V2.0? It’s not like they need to invest in a new drivetrain. Can the car be built on the same production line design? If so, both the production and drivetrain designs would be complete.
Oh, that is a beautiful car. Will it make financial sense? I guess only GM truly knows what they have with Voltec. We can only speculate. Their engineers might be jumping up and down screaming, “We nailed it!” If so, It might be worth a go… Man, that’s a beautiful car.
It’s Easier To Beg For Forgiveness Then to Ask For Permission.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:17 pm)high end (not sure if top of the line) vette runs $70k I think $80 is not unreasonable for some people …
+3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:20 pm)Thank you for that reference to hydrogen at 5,000 psi! That helps greatly to understand what it would take to just (make it as well as) compress it to that pressure.
The simple amount of electricity to compress to that pressure might be as much as 25% of what it would take to recharge Volt to a full charge. Not to mention all the costs to electrically maintain everything needed to get it there in the first place.
I know I wouldn’t want 3,600 psi of CNG in the trunk of a car as per the CNG Civic. (15% of the electricity to charge Volt just to compress it into the tank).
These discussions are extremely valuable to OEM’s as well as the public!
It all needs to keep going, even though sometimes statements often can be perceived as unfortunate, still, these small controversies are the most valuable of all to get others to start new thinking and for new learning take place.
It is not always pleasant, but if there is a misconception anyhow here, it is most certainly widespread “out there”.
I always just keep in mind that just about everyone means well, and wants to do some part in taking care and contributing.
+12
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:23 pm)“Hydrogen is inevitable, because it is universal and easy to make…”
You really do not understand about hydrogen, do you? It is easy to make in that you can certainly do it- but not easy to do it economically, with less energy, and with reliable storage. It is one of the most inefficient options we have to store energy- and that is all Hydrogen fuel cells are, an energy storage unit. Chemical batteries are already inproving rapidly and coming down in price, and quick charge stations for batteries will be a cheaper and a more efficient conduit for providing electricity to our EVs. Hydrogen gets a lot of hype because it allows the boys in the Fossil Fuel club to continue doing what they know best- selling a fuel they can control and distribute within their current infrastructure. Fuel cells are an extremely interesting idea- just not a good idea once thought out and compared to other options.
-10
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:27 pm)(click to show comment)
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:30 pm)Schmeltz,
On autobloggreen yesterday they blogged about the 25 new vehicles that GM plans to release in the near future, and surprisingly, they were not critical of the offerings!
The Volt will be the trickle that gets that dam breached (eventually).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:35 pm)Omni
I agree about the competition stiffening as the price exceeds 50K and the population who can PAY that diminishes exponentially. However, OUR group is actually a niche group and probably doesn’t reflect the (as yet ignorant, er, less-knowledgeable) masses out there. I think that until a neighbor has a Volt to show off, growth will be a bit slow. Once the leak in the dam becomes a steady stream, watch out!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:39 pm)When we develop a cheap, non-polluting power generation source then we can consider throwing 50% of the energy away on hydrogen as an automotive enenrgy carrier. Until then, let’s use and spend the bulk of our efforts on the much more efficient technologies that already exist.
We need to start implementing solutions now, not in the mythical 10 years from now scenario and especially not ones that are less efficient than what is available today. If you really want to diet, you start today not next Monday.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:40 pm)Since they have dozens of IVers already, 500 pre-production Volt wheels on the road by 7/4/2010 is probably quite doable. I have no way of knowing how many pre-production Volts the development plans might require, though.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:43 pm)Luke,
But I’ll bet that you didn’t buy any of those vehicles (in that condition) as a new vehicle (lol). I think most of us have “enjoyed” the same kind of vehicles though.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:47 pm)Well put, Dan,
Plenty of “learning opportunities” occur here everyday (at least they do for me). Keeping in mind that the range of knowledge seems to be marching ever higher in our group, not everyone has been here for years either.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:50 pm)Dont forget the BYD Volt that is for sale right now (if you are a gov agency).. and the CEO wants to lower the cost to $16k.. this thing may beat the Volt to the market.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/12/byd-f3dm-plug-i.html
Here are the 3 modes of operation:
1) Full battery-powered EV mode;
2) Series-hybrid mode, in which an engine drives a generator as a range-extender;
3) Parallel hybrid mode, in which the engine and motor both provide propulsive power.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:54 pm)Luke,
I definitely agree that it’s doable, but they have to decide to continue to MAKE them to get to 500. They have MY vote (lol, like that counts).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 23rd, 2009 (12:54 pm)a
-8
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:00 pm)People will pay for convenience over abstract efficiency. Look at how many people go to 7/11 for milk that is cheaper at a grocery store. Likewise, people will want the convenience of a rapid recharge of compressed hydrogen, over the long recharge times of BEV’s – it is that simple.
-9
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:01 pm)Have you tried googling it? I would be surprised if hydrogen was co-located with gasoline or ethanol, so you might be looking in the wrong places.
-10
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:03 pm)(click to show comment)
+5
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:03 pm)There is simple SCIENTIFIC point that always gets lost in the hydrogen debate.
Fuel cell efficiency <50%
Battery efficiency >95%
That means 50% of the energy stored in hydrogen is LOST as heat. As opposed to a battery where only 5% is lost as heat.
Even if fuel cells were cheap, even if there were hydrogen fueling stations everywhere, even if light cheap hydrogen storage tanks could be made, even if hydrogen could be produced efficiently cheaply, even if hydrogen transport and delivery systems materialized…(forget that these challenges are at least a decade and 10′s of billions of dollars away from being solved)…even if this was the case…
It does not make sense to waste 40-50% of the energy we produce by any means (solar, wind, nuclear, coal) inside a fuel cell. There may be select applications for this technology but it simply does not make sense for automobiles. This is science. Some people will say fuel cell efficiency can be much higher…the theoretical efficiency is may be 80% from thermodynamic Gibbs free energy calculations, but this is not practically achievable, even if it was magically achieved it would still be wasting energy compared to direct energy storage in a battery. Remember the theoretical efficiency of ICE is maybe 60%, but after >100 YEARS of intense research and development ICE is <25% efficient in automobile applications. There are real practical limitations on design and engineering and theoretical efficiencies are just that..theoretical.
The science is in the EFFICIENCY OF ENERGY CONVERSION, this is what should be discussed and evaluated. Fuel cells are 50% efficiency while batteries are 90% efficient in providing electricity for electrically driven automobile applications. Unless there is a good reason to waste half the energy we produce by any means inside a fuel cell, how can fuel cells make sense?
-11
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:05 pm)(click to show comment)
+17
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:08 pm)Hydrogen is the biggest scam going. It’s the big oil companies that are pushing hydrogen. They know it will probably never work out, and if it does, hydrogen will be made from natural gas, like it is now. Meanwhile, they’ve used the promise of hydrogen to delay other viable alternatives, like plug-ins. That’s why they call them Fool Sells. They are meant to deceive us. Classic red herring.
http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html
“In a recent study, fuel cell expert Ulf Bossel explains that a hydrogen economy is a wasteful economy. The large amount of energy required to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds (water, natural gas, biomass), package the light gas by compression or liquefaction, transfer the energy carrier to the user, plus the energy lost when it is converted to useful electricity with fuel cells, leaves around 25% for practical use — an unacceptable value to run an economy in a sustainable future. Only niche applications like submarines and spacecraft might use hydrogen.”
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:12 pm)Here are the realities of hydrogen.
1) Hydrogen is not a fuel source, it’s a fuel carrier. In other words, some other energy source is required to make hydrogen.
2) The main energy sources for hydrogen are electricity (to crack water) and natural gas. Of these, natural gas is much more economical. Cracking water is inherently inefficient. There are other ways to make hydrogen, but these are even more expensive and inefficient.
3) Current electricity production uses 70% fossil fuels, 20% nuclear, and 10% renewable. The economics of renewables is such that this won’t change significantly anytime soon. So hydrogen in the U.S. will most certainly be created from fossil fuels.
4) The efficiency of hydrogen conversion, transportation, storage, and fuel cell electricity production is poor.
5) The net result of all the above is that hydrogen cars would create more CO2 emissions than our current gas engine cars.
6) The infrastructure of hydrogen fueling stations is nowhere in sight.
7) The big oil companies are pushing the hydrogen economy the most. They are also using the promise of fuel cells to help delay or prevent other solutions from fully taking hold. This is how they managed to kill the California zero emission vehicle mandate.
That’s why they call them “FOOL SELLS”
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:14 pm)Hey Tag,
True, often times, when something like “What is 230?” topic comes along, the visits to the site skyrocket, and, a little more new learning takes place.
I learned a lesson about learning and communications when I was just about ready to leave the USAF (in 1976).
I submitted an idea to the suggestion box. It regarded that it would be a good idea for all new assignees to the squadron to be firstly assigned the night time duty called “Charge of Quarters” (which was overnight administration of the living quarters in cases of emergencies, etc).
The idea was not adopted as not having merit.
I then thought of at least five very good advantages for that very same idea. I then paraphrased each of those very good advantages FOUR different ways, so as to communicate to various readers whom likely had four different perspectives.
This resulted in a list “good reason matrix” for that very same simple idea, that had reasons from the letter “a. They would get to know the base map…” right down to the letter “t. They would have people come in for minor questions and meet new people and other new assignees, and not as likely to be cooped up in their room too much…”
The idea was adopted firstly squadron wide, (and I got a check), then, adopted base-wide, then adopted US AIR FORCE wide. I had since left the USAF when it went US Air Force wide, but they tracked me down, and handed me another check.
The lesson is that we must be relentlessly patient in rephrasing explanations for anyone who needs to have an understanding of anything, so that we always maintain that sense of instructional charity.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:20 pm)Shimizu is entitled to his opinion but there’s no indication it’s grounded in any kind of reality. The fact is, Toyota has experience with electric motors, batteries and MAKING MONEY. They introduced their own disruptive and risky technology in ’97. That’s not he profile of a company that’s afraid of anything.
People should get a grip on reality, here.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:21 pm)I agree. Fuel cells and hydrogen are attractive under the right circumstances. In the event that quick charging batteries or capacitors never come to cut the mustard, or a massive new high power grid and charging network seems unworkable, perhaps hydrogen will start to be attractive. What the car manufactures have demonstrated is that the system works and fulfills the requirement of a total replacement of gasoline with no compromise in driving habits and no emissions at the tailpipe today. Pretty impressive.
There is just the pesky little details about cost of fuel cell manufacture, hydrogen production without the use of oil, the infrastructure to make, and dispense hydrogen, as well as the problems of storage and transportation of a gas that doesn’t like to be liquid. I agree with others, that hydrogen’s time is not now, maybe never, but it’s not stupid and actually a possible solution should other ideas never pan out.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:28 pm)Keep the plans alive I say. It could prove useful to have a Fisker fighter at the ready. Let Fisker go first to see how the market for upscale E-REV goes and if all seems go, quickly jump in with Converj but with better performance than the Karma. This is the advantage of going second. You have the ability to improve.
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:32 pm)Actually, the 2009 ZR-1 Corvette starts at $104,000, and yes, there is a wait list. People will pay that much for a GM product if there is a reason to. Cadillac just needs to give people a compelling reason.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:35 pm)Build it now with a direct injection 304 horse 30MPG engine an a turbo diesel and watch profits roll in. Then you have a sweet $40 something Caddy…
Man these guys are still in the fog of the old GM.
That and the Concept Buick Riviera would certainly make big bucks for GM.
Yes Voltec in 2014 but gas and or diesel now. WTF GM.
By 2014 batteries are cheap and the Volt sells for under $30K, becomes mainstream and the $80K Caddy is in the hi $40′s
GM is still amazingly stupid and slow….it’s frustrating when the talent is obviously abundant and the product right in front of your eyes. Feels like a rerun of the past….
None of the current CEO’s are worth the money they get paid right now. Not trying to piss anyone off…”Just Saying”…
-2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:45 pm)Did the person(s) responsible for the proposed 2 mode plain Jane blend in with the garbage dumpster Buick get sent to Korea and strapped to a missile yet….?
Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way GM….
OK rant over….have a great day people.
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (1:53 pm)It’s a great era to be stuck in. Driving is fun, the cars are sexy and it makes you want to go out and drive with pride of ownership. IMO, we need people like Lutz to keep the passion in vehicle design alive. The Japanese will service all of those that desire a driving Maytag appliance just fine. I think GM’s demise can be attributed to the lack of people like Lutz in their organization. They relied instead on design by committee, focus groups and worst of all, the accounting department. Meanwhile, Lutz was over working at BMW making that the great brand it is today. By the time Lutz returned, GM was such a colossal mess, that Jesus himself couldn’t have fixed it.
The challenge for the future is, how do we make muscle cars that don’t burn gas, rather than how do we shoe horn people into tiny packages and discourage people from the car ownership experience all together. There is room on the road for Aptera owners and Tesla owners.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (2:12 pm)The technology will move fast. First step behind can mean always one step behind if your competition is truly innovative. A Cadillac is fundamentally a better fit for where the tech currently is. This has been acknowledged by GM and is pretty clear when you look at the costs and advantages EREV can currently offer. A Caddy just wouldn’t make the same kind of splash a high volume Chevy would and the original concept was designed more to make a splash than make the best business proposition.
They have an oportunity to make an EREV that is truely heads and shoulders above the ICE competition on more than just the gas saving level. If you look at the buzz that Tesla and Fisker have generated and the demographics of the Prius buyers, it seems clear to me that a car like the Converj will do very well if done right.
Green light it now, expecially if it can be sold profitably for less than $75K.
+5
Aug 23rd, 2009 (2:18 pm)Thanks for the link, Dave G. I’m an avid reader of Physorg.com but missed this article. The next war will may very well be over water. We use far to much of it to make products we consume when it is a vital life source.
There is no good reason for not using renewable energy. IMHO, Solar is the best choice.The cost of solar panels is dropping and will be competitive with currently used energy sources. Imagine every house having solar panels on their roofs. The only need for the grid will be supply of electric under cloudy weather of night time use. We can all generate the electricity needed to charge our batteries.
As I drive around the valley now, I keep a watchful eye out for solar arrays and wind turbines. Noticed a few new ones lately. The shift from fossil fuels to renewable fuels has begun to pick up.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (2:22 pm)My Catera felt like an expensive german sports car inside and out. That’s what I’d compare a possible Converj against: sporty, luxury ride and handling at an attainable price.
An $80k Converj coming out in 2010 might have a prayer, but in 2014 there will be so many solid EV competitors at much lower price (Tesla S will be $57k!) it can’t possibly compete as anything but a niche product. How many $20k, $30k, $40 and $50k electric vehicles will be in showrooms by 2014? It’s a large number, just sayin’.
GM needs a slam dunk with the Converj and an $80,000 price tag will never achieve that. It’s a recipe for product failure in the EV market of 2014. And such low sales volume will never achieve cost efficiencies for the drivetrain. Perhaps that’s Lutz’s plan after all – - V8 muscle cars in complete domination of GM’s product line still in 2015.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (2:38 pm)If the Caddy is one foot longer and a few inches wider than the Volt then the car can be a 5 passenger vehicle. The center tee would be shortened to just the front seat center column and the space for the tunnel in the back seat area could illiminated and the battery put under the back seat and in the trunk behind the back seat. It might even be a larger battery.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (2:41 pm)While the Volt shows more promise toward your stated goal when viewed from one side, it is in reality further from it. BEV’s & EREV’s ultimately need to compete on their own without federal subsidies and without the consciencious buyer. This is the context in which BEVs & EREVs will be judged in the long. The Converj, Fisker Karma, and Tesla Roadster are all much closer to this goal. EVs can provide performance with a lower efficiency, cost, and weight premium. This allows for a luxury, performance car to be offered at a proportionately smaller premium to it’s ICE counterparts than an economy or mid-range car can be.
The Converj can be offered for a profit now. Profitable EREVs and BEVs will get is to mainstream EVs the fastest.
-1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (2:43 pm)Jason M. Hendler are you related to Michael Robinson?
Sound like a match made in heaven!
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:00 pm)Please, no hydrogen. How soon people forget the scam that occurred by CARB in “Who Killed The Electric Car?” It was hydrogen promises that helped kill the EV-1, lets not let hydrogen get in the way of VOLT, Converj, or any other Voltec car that is being planned. Cadillac owners will want to plug-in at home and fuel up at gas stations across the nation like the other Voltec owners.
Hydrogen vehicles most likely will continue to be leased only to those who live near a hydrogen fueling station.
For those areas of the country that need lower emissions, then consider Voltec using CNG as the fuel source for extended range. Even then, coast to coast travel would be difficult if not impossible.
http://www.altfuelprices.com/
(Check cost of hydrogen in Southern California at web site above!)
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:01 pm)Dave G,
Item #5 is the most relevant. They are going to spend lot of effort anticipating negative result. Primery enery expenditure would be at least twice worse than IEC cars. I will be no suprised if Life cycle analysis would demonstrait five time degradation.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:03 pm)One good development, by 2014 GM should have Gen II of the Voltec system ready, so rather than $80K maybe the car might be priced closer to $60K. If it’s $80K then the volume would be very low indeed. There haven’t been many people prepared to pay $80K for a car in the last few years, and that population has taken a hard hit from the simultaneous collapse of real estate and stocks.
I love the look of the Converj. But even at $60K, in order to sell in any volume it would have to be If it was a full sized car with great performance both in CD and CS modes.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:14 pm)I agree with you that Hydrogen is inevitable. Deuterium will fuel nuclear fission in the ITER reactor. But as energy storage – that sounds too crazy.Sorry.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:38 pm)Fuel cells and hydrogen are very different issues. Fuel cells for power generationfrom natural gas could be attractive in some cases when silent and robust operation needed.
-1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:45 pm)Yes. That had menopause written all over it.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:47 pm)Why do you give this idea thumbs down?
-2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:48 pm)There is no way anyone would choose a Converj over a Tesla S for a simlar price.
-5
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:50 pm)Then you must be e tree humping boring cookie cutter looking vehicle driver.
This man gave us Vipers and muscle cars. Your a dork. Bet they shoved you in the locker in hi school.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:51 pm)Amen!
Build the Bitch Now!
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:57 pm)Good point! The vehicles were very used before I got to them… They certainly required less care-and-feeding back when they were new.
But, still, I do have think ahead about fuel somewhat in a conventional car, even on major highways. There’s a stretch of I-64 in Eastern Kentucky where fuel is pretty hard to find, which is almost exactly 400 miles from my house…. Also, I-70 through Missouri/Kansas/Eastern Colorado can be pretty scarce at times, and US-19 in West Virginia can be pretty desolate as well. While I’ve never actually run out of fuel in any of these places, I’ve come close and had to pay exorbitant prices for fuel when I did find it… I plan ahead, now.
OTOH, I don’t know of any place on I-95, I-81, or I-77 where gas stations are so sparse. Maybe this is a difference between living on the coasts, and living in “flyover country”?
-1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (3:58 pm)Wrong
Aug 23rd, 2009 (4:16 pm)______________________________________________________
“Even though Lutz is pushing for the Converj, the program still remains unfunded.”
——-
When GM says “unfunded” that means needing more taxpayer $$$.
I want to see an EREV Converj but not if that means additional taxpayer $$$.
______________________________________________________
-1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (4:24 pm)Let me guess. Converj can be most advanced vehicle in the world. But then it shall be pricy. I expect in-wheel motors with total power 200 kW, ultra capacitor pack up to 2kWh, battery pack more than 20 kWh and advanced genset with possibly Capstone turbine or other advanced genset. May be alcohol or gasoline fuel cell. And that cost money!!!!!! It would be appropriate to test all those things on some luxury gadget before Voltec 2 and/or #3 or #4.
+7
Aug 23rd, 2009 (4:24 pm)do you understand that when you use electricity and water to make hydrogen, you can only make hydrogen equal to half the electricity you put in.
then when you use a fuel cell to convert the hydrogen to electricity to drive the electric motor you only get half the energy back as electricity.
For hydrogen/fuel cell system filled “at home” for every DOLLAR you spend on electricity at home only 25 CENTS worth goes toward moving your car.
When you use a battery you get the whole dollar of electricity back to propel your car.
so your saying paying four times as much to drive and WASTING four times as much energy is a good idea. maybe spend some time understanding how these systems work…
Aug 23rd, 2009 (4:32 pm)They aren’t mutually exclusive. The Converj doesn’t need to sell 100,000 or 50,000 copies per year to be a success. If they plan for and sell 20K copies at profit it will be a bigger success than the Volt. Selling at a profit is a much easier objective to achieve for a luxury Converj then it is for an everyman Volt. GM can implement a plan to produces competitive mainstream EREVs and BEVs a lot easier if they have other money making EVs.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (4:40 pm)buying expensive milk does not increase greenhouse emissions.
paying more than twice the amount to drive the same distance and producing double the carbon emissions generating that electricity ..is the point.
from the perspective of making decisions for long term energy policy, it really is important to understand the substance of what is important from the energy and engineering perspectives.
By the way A123 lithium batteries now available for several years are capable of 4 minute recharge times ( e.g. killacycle ), and this is only going to get better. and if you charge home it doesn’t matter anyway.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (4:53 pm)DaV8or: The Japanese will service all of those that desire a driving Maytag appliance just fine.
Don’t look now, but they are. And succeeding wildly while GM goes bankrupt.
“Meanwhile” Lutz was at BMW — “meanwhile” to you apparently means 1971-1974… Being a fixture at GM since 1992, Lutz had plenty of time to deadweight GM with his ego totems at Cadillac and Hummer. That was LONG before the bankruptcy. Don’t act like he just showed up.
Lutz is onw of those major corporate parasites who attributes all success to himself, inserts himself into anything mildy successful, and evades all responsibility when things get hard (I’m retired, this is boring. I’m unretired, it turns out bankruptcy isn’t boring!)
Lutz is better off at a boutique manufacturer.
And as for it being a fun era — maybe for you. To me, it represents the nadir of efficiency, comfort, interior design, and safety. If you only like accelerating in a straight line and using the maximum amount of fuel doing so, it was an AWESOME era.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (5:07 pm)Dan,
>> then adopted US AIR FORCE wide. I had since left the USAF when it went US Air Force wide, but they tracked me down, and handed me another check
Damn!
Did you cash that check? When I got out of the Nav, I probably would have because I was close to insolvent for some time post-discharge, but that’s a check I’d have liked to hang on to.
Well done!
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (5:13 pm)Sorry for the aside but this seemed related to electric cars like the Converj.
“350 parts per million is what many scientists, climate experts, and progressive national governments are now saying is the safe upper limit for CO2 in our atmosphere.
“Accelerating arctic warming and other early climate impacts have led scientists to conclude that we are already above the safe zone at our current 390ppm, and that unless we are able to rapidly return to 350 ppm this century, we risk reaching tipping points and irreversible impacts such as the melting of the Greenland ice sheet and major methane releases from increased permafrost melt.
“There are three numbers you need to really understand global warming, 275, 390, and 350…”
http://www.350.org is a grass roots organization aiming to raise awareness that we have passed the safe limit for CO2 in the atmosphere already – - we’re now pushing 390 ppm CO2. They are asking folks across the country to take action (of your choice) on October 24th to spread the word.
Edit: Sorry I forgot to mention I heard of this on the Colbert Report. Give credit where due.
+4
Aug 23rd, 2009 (5:13 pm)What causes you to make such a blanket statement?
For me, I’ll take an E-REV over a BEV any day. Range anxiety is real and someone paying 80 large for a vehicle is not going to take kindly to having to “do the math”.
-3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (5:25 pm)Dude, ever hear of the Hindenberg? Ever hear of an H-Bomb? Generating and storing hydrogen is incredibly dangerous.
Cracking hydrogen from water is way inefficient. It takes more power to generate hydrogen than you get back with all the conversion losses.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (5:47 pm)28.
Guy Incognito Says:
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Dream of the Electric Cadillac all you want Bob, but build the Volt.
_-=
Aug 23rd, 2009 (5:47 pm)Ham on Rye,
Thank you for your post. Too much media is in complete denial of what is going on. Too many individuals are in complete denial of what is going on. Runaway greenhouse heating may have already hit that tipping point, and, the younger generations may indeed hold us severely accountable for it.
So, all you current policy-makers had very well better pay strict attention to all this right now, or you may find yourselves (and any of us people or corporations who let too much time slip by before taking action to reduce or offset our carbon footprints), being held to draconian and unbearable political pressures, if not legal consequences, starting with radio talk show hosts, and television news media content managers and owners.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (5:47 pm)Trust me Tag. The name will work.
=D~
Aug 23rd, 2009 (5:50 pm)GM sells plenty of Corvettes. They are way more than 50k a piece. Top line is over 100k.
-4
Aug 23rd, 2009 (5:59 pm)Let the car computer do the math and NAV do the search.
Electrical charging stations don’t exist any more than hydrogen stations.
A note to the majority of today bloggers: You must know something that GM, Honda, BMW, Chrysler, Ford, and Nissan does not know, because they are all investing heavily on the research of fuel cells. Get real! You people are not any smarter than all the scientists who are working on fuel cells….. I expect a lot of negatives on this one so please don’t disappoint.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (6:01 pm)Classic case of a potentially interesting subject – a Voltec Caddy – getting hijacked by a post on a minor issue involving what is probably an irrelevant technology.
Could see discussions of wanting more power in a Caddy than just tweaked Volt powertrain (say, two motors, larger batt, etc).
Aug 23rd, 2009 (6:04 pm)Maybe by the time the Cadillac Converj E-REV comes out, GM will have mastered the technology for integrating ultracapacitors with the lithium ion battery and a (hopefully) smaller, better, lighter, less expensive IC engine.
This article says that ultracaps would make it possible for the lithium ion battery to be 25% smaller and have better durability.
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/23289/
A Converj with ultracaps would be a high performance luxury coupe that will probably embarrass a LOT of BMWs and Benzes out there. The ultracaps would make it very quick. No doubt about it.
Hopefully, the production version of the Converj will be a cool looking, luxurious, super quiet, super fast slick cruising machine. I can visualize a bunch of upper income folks in Silicon Valley and Hollywood driving them around in a few years. It would compete against the new Tesla sedan and the Fisker Karma E-REV and probably 2-3 other ones by the time it hits dealerships.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (6:21 pm)Luke,
I know exactly what you’re talking about regarding sparsity of gas stations (that’s gasoline stations). I’m in central PA right next to absolutely nowhere and went to grad school at Eastern Ky Univ (beautiful sleepy little town back then). Once outside of “town”, the gas stations thin out pretty well. It was even worse in Nebraska where it was very easy to get lost on corn field roads, especially if you had a short car! Directions were given by the silos and ammonia tanks (Go to the triple silo and turn left and go till the white ammonia tanks and take another left…).Around here, a driver with a navigator is called a “Husband”. (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-6
Aug 23rd, 2009 (6:22 pm)Colbert is an entertainer, not a journalist.
Take a look at his ‘coverage’ of the Volt. The facts aren’t even correct. (Search colbert+volt on youtube.)
As far as CO2 is concerned, there is no definitive (Colbert aside) scientific case that we are actually heating up the earth or that CO2 is the root cause. The natural fluctuations in the atmosphere are way more powerful than anything mankind can do. A category-5 hurricane is 200 times more powerful than all the electricity generated by man in one year!
How much CO2 and other junk did Mt. St. Helens spew into the atmosphere? What happened to the ozone-layer hole?
I think we are not smart enough to predict the cause/effect of adding CO2 to the environment. We can’t even predict the weather with 100% certainty one day in advance. For all we know, algae is sucking up CO2 faster than we can make it.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (6:24 pm)OK, Dave K,
I trust you on the name. Frankly they can call it “Spit in a sack” as long as it has a good AER, avoids range-anxiety, and is affordable!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (6:31 pm)herm,
At first blush that BYD sounds like a seriously over engineered vehicle. It just seems like with that much going on, something is going to go wrong. Thanks for the link.
Be well,
Tagamet
/ 8 or 9 hour charge on 220?
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Aug 23rd, 2009 (6:36 pm)Ham on Rye,
Thanks for that link to 350.org.
I’m going to join it and send a contribution.
Denial will always be with us with shallow anecdotal comparisons and provincial viewpoints that “it hasn’t affected me yet, so therefore it must not exist”.
-3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (6:57 pm)Everyone knows those numbers, but the fuel cell numbers you quote are too low given today’s technology.
From a consumer’s point of view, they want convenience and recharging that takes hours is inconvenient, so wealthy buyers (early adopters) won’t buy BEV’s in significant numbers until they are rapid recharge.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (7:08 pm)Corvette for $100k? How many of those does GM sell each year? The point is, if GM wants to sell more than a couple thousand a year they have to price it right.
It will benefit nobody (not GM because a specialty vehicle is not a profit maker) if we get yet another $80k – $100k electric vehicle. 99% of Americans are priced out of that market.
GM should wise up and understand that you can either have $100 profit by selling one unit priced too high OR you can sell 100 units with a $20 profit each by pricing it within the reach of most Americans. You choose. $100 or $2000 profit?
Price the Converj EREV less than $50k which is still $10k more than the Volt.
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (7:10 pm)Must be a Tesla boy…hows all the 6,000 individual plus lap top batteries and thousands of soldered joints holding up in a battery with a 4 year life ….
Aug 23rd, 2009 (7:12 pm)Just make all roofs white to reflect the heat and sun. Roads white cement. Watch the super fast global chilling.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (7:24 pm)50% is about right for a fuel cell in a car.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (7:25 pm)Why?
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (7:31 pm)Although hydrogen production is very inefficient, it is frustrating because it is after all, the most abundant element in the entire universe. Makes me mad to think about it.
+3
Aug 23rd, 2009 (7:54 pm)Here is the answer to all your climate change denier talking points.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Stop listening to talking heads. Listen to scientists including undreds of Nobel Laureates.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (8:11 pm)I will take the Pink Tie edition,
My market researcher says pink goes very well with green.
Cheers
Red HHR
(actually it would have to be a lease return before I could afford it)
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (8:16 pm)All the area of roofs might not be a thousandth of a percent of the surface reflective loss of all ice loss worldwide, even if we didn’t have to worry about the CO2 associated with all that paint manufactured. But a good thought none the less.
The new roof I just had put on my house is far more reflective than the one just damaged 4 months ago by golf-ball sized hail.
Transportation CO2 is the first one we can knock down a lot with electrification of the auto.
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (8:28 pm)Those fuel numbers are correct for today. I’m being very conservative. Fuel cells have variable efficiencies based on power output. 50% is at peak performance which is not where the car will operate most of the time.
to make it simple I did not even discuss energy wasted in producing, transporting, and storage of hydrogen. There are HUGE LOSSES associated with these activities that i did not even factor into the picture.
Lithium ion cells from A123 that have been on the market for almost 5 years can be charged in 4 minutes (killacycle). Installation of fast charges with high voltage and amps is actually very cheap at preexisting gas stations. It’s coming in the next SAE EV plug specification.
The Obama administration understands science (unlike bush). This is why they drastically hydrogen research dollars. Even if fuel cells were equivalent to battery based systems..it makes no sense based on the enormous losses of power in energy conversion.
honda makes wild claims about fuel cells because that is all they have worked on for 15 years, the “clarity”. There idea of a home filling station that converts natural gas to hydrogen for your car is not a forward looking idea, the point is to switch to renewable resources. They are very misguided about the future of automobile propulsion in many regards. They quote high “peak efficiencies” for their fuel cells to get attention.
prototype fuel cells with 60% efficiency will be available in about 5 years, but batteries release energy with 95% efficiency: http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/06/16/new-fuel-cell-boasts-the-worlds-highest-level-of-energy-efficiency/
This technical article has the basics on fuel cell efficiency: http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=730&first=6312&end=6311
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:11 pm)If somebody was dim enough to hand me millions or billions of dollars to develop hydrogen components in lieu of being required to actual produce something I didn’t believe I could make money on, I’ld probably be singing hydrogen’s praises too.
-1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:26 pm)You people that give a negative vote because you think the Buick 2 mode was in your opinion “good Looking” must be a riot to look at in real life. I bet you drive a min van or old sentra and harass security guards…
And pick up chicks in Ramada Inn menopause lounge. He He He….your so funny….
+2
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:39 pm)There is one thing that is overlooked all of the time and that is that people don’t want to be a slave to the machine any longer .
It doesn’t make any difference if it is a Pure Electric Car like the Leaf or an Extended Range Electric Car like the Converj (Volt) people are just not going to want to go through the physical inconvenience of having to physically plugging the car in every day one or two times .
In order for these vehicles to be widely accepted car over Induction charging will have to become the normal . The standards have to be developed for the placement of the induction paddles in parking lots ,service centers , in home garages , driveways and under the cars . In sue happy United States the last thing that is needed is extension cords all over the place for people to trip over and fall . Every owner of a plug in car stands to be sued for all they are worth because people will look for cords to fall over to make claims over .
They would be automatic in operation and people would see them as a much safer way to charge the cars and no extension cords would be needed . Nobody is going to want to dig out the extension cord every day from the trunk and plug the darned car in when the whole charging thing can be done automatically and safely by stoping the car over an Induction Paddle .
The main North South highway on the West Coast could and should be Electrified from LA to Vancouver and would make a perfect candidate for the first Electric Highway in the world .This would put Canada and America out in front with this technology and able to develop the international standards . The government has millions of people out of work right now and they talk about training them for high teck training and putting them back to work .
Well now is the time as the opportunity presents itself and everybody will benefit as this is the way technology is taking us . We (North Americans) just have to take charge of it and become the world leaders.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (9:42 pm)Colbert is a comedian. His show is a farce of news shows but it does have an underlying message. He does have real guests and real references. His entertainment venue does nothing to dispute the veracity of those references.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (10:45 pm)Yea , sure , and where do you think the government funding comes from ?
WE are the funders of those projects through our taxes .
Sure use electricity to make hydrogen , make an expensive fool cell to convert it back into electricity to provide power . OH yea , that makes allot of sense , give yourself a reality shake will you .
Put the power in the battery and skip the hydrogen nonsense .
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:02 pm)Why wouldn’t I look for retail hydrogen be found at a retail fuel station?
The hydrogen stations that I’ve heard about aren’t ones that I, a member of the public, could use.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:23 pm)Dont you guys understand physics at all ?
People are working on advanced super fast charging solutions now .
What is being researched is The charge is going to be going into Super Capacitors which will take an enormous charge almost instantly from say a 440 volt supply line .
The capacity will be reached in as little as two to five minutes or less . The problems that they are working to overcome is developing the high frequency controller to release this energy to the motor dependably for years without frying the motor from a power surge .
When that happens batteries will be almost eliminated and all electrics and extended range vehicles will be quick charge and have a 100 mile highway range at 70 mph .
With under the car Induction pad there wont be any need for “extension cords” and highway travel will be handled with “charge on the fly” by charging lanes running parallel to the main lanes on the freeways . Something like the Nintendo game called “F Zero” of years ago. You wont have to slow down to charge , just change lanes to the charging lane. Forget the extension cord foolishness .
That is just something to get sued for by somebody falling over it and destroying your life and everything you worked for .
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:26 pm)Why would you need any hybrid or EREV technology to get 30mpg?
There are lots of conventional cars that exceed that with conventional engines and transmissions. Could I interest you in a Honda Fit? If you don’t mind 28 city/37 highway mpg when driven conservatively, perhaps a Mini Cooper would be more your style?
The Lexus 450h claims 31mpg… If a nice interior and unremarkable mileage out of a $50k hybrid is your thing, anyway.
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:34 pm)Don’t forget to super-insulate the house.
+1
Aug 23rd, 2009 (11:43 pm)I think I see Lutz’s teeth clench whenever he says “small and efficient cars are the future of GM”, though… I think he believes it, but that doesn’t mean he likes it.
It’s fun to watch!
Aug 24th, 2009 (12:05 am)Yea , but it is a Chinese car so we have to bad mouth it just on principles .
Aug 24th, 2009 (12:25 am)Lobotomy–excellent due diligence. Did you work on the Aztek?
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:25 am)There are few hydrogen stations, 14 in southern California for 15 million people, and as far as I can tell, all are highly subsidized. Outlets don’t have to be subsidized to propel cars for two to three times less money than gasoline, today!!!
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:25 am)How do we know that, few folks have bought plug ins yet and the folks have, love ‘em.
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:25 am)Actually it is thought to really work…Article pasted.
Professor Steven Chu, the US Energy Secretary, said the unusual proposal would mean homes in hot countries would save energy and money on air conditioning by deflecting the sun’s rays.
More pale surfaces could also slow global warming by reflecting heat into space rather than allowing it to be absorbed by dark surfaces where it is trapped by greenhouse gases and increases temperatures.
Related Articles
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Are we allowed to paint roof white?
*
Climate Change department keep air-conditioning rather than open windows
In a wide-ranging discussion at the three-day Nobel laureate Symposium in London, the Professor described climate change as a “crisis situation”, and called for a whole host of measures to be introduced, from promoting energy efficiency to renewable energy such as wind, wave and solar.
The Nobel Prize-winning physicist said the US was not considering any large scale “geo-engineering” projects where science is used to reverse global warming, but was in favour of “white roofs everywhere”.
He said lightening roofs and roads in urban environments would offset the global warming effects of all the cars in the world for 11 years.
“If you look at all the buildings and if you make the roofs white and if you make the pavement more of a concrete type of colour rather than a black type of colour and if you do that uniformally, that would be the equivalent of… reducing the carbon emissions due to all the cars in the world by 11 years – just taking them off the road for 11 years,” he said.
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:40 am)ccombs:
What I am hoping for is that by 2014, the 2nd gen Voltec will be able to get a higher energy density and smaller battery pack that won’t intrude into the rear foot well, so both Volt & Converj will be able to become standard 5 seaters. That has to increase their marketability for some buyers. It would for me.
Secondly, I hope that it is offered in a 4-door and coupe body style. Some of the past photoshop exercises show that you could hide the 4 door cut lines pretty well. I would appreciate the utility of a 4-dr, 5 passenger electric Caddy.
This is the 1st green car that I’ve ever desired strictly on the basis of looks. I really hope that they build it. I’m holding off on car purchases until I know the outcome of the Converj.
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:42 am)omnimoeish:
I agree. The Converj will be compared against the 5-seat, 4-dr Tesla S. It would be a hard sell at $20K more.
Aug 24th, 2009 (2:49 am)i agree…i would choose EREV over BEV anyday even BEV can travel 1000 miles per charge….dunno why, i have this need of backup generators… i’m a happy camper…maybe thats the reason why…
Aug 24th, 2009 (4:12 am)The Converj will look hot with a mirror gloss finish on the grille. A chirp of the rear wheels as it glides silently into the night.
=D~
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (5:52 am)Awe hack. I missed a good conversation concerning fuel cells
Bummer.
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:02 am)It sounds like you think the current GM lineup sucks but I give credit to Lutz for some nice cars.
The Direct Injection 4 cyl mated to a 6 speed transmission in the Malibu makes a 33 mpg highway car that is nice to drive. I recently had the chance. This thing can compete with the Camry.
The Chevy Transverse competes well with the Honda Pilot and similar Jap cars. The Traverse mileage is at the top and the interior is very good.
The Chevey 2010 Equinox with the DI 4 cyl/6 speed gets 32 mpg highway and is being rated higher than the Rav4s and equivalents from the Other auto makers.
The Cruze is looking very good and will be here soon.
And of course the Volt is coming next year.
ALL of these cars compete well with any similarly priced cars on the market and all of them were green lighted and pushed forward while Bob Lutz was at GM.
The GM showroom will be looking pretty nice in late 2010 when the Volt hits the street and Bob Lutz should get some of the credit.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:07 am)And Chicken little will always be alive with warnings of impending disasters based on a misunderstanding of limited evidence.
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:29 am)I hope the Converj makes it to market without any changes. I hope GM has learned that this bait and switch with concepts doesn’t help their image with the buying public. They will soon learn that a Plain-Jane Volt for 40K won’t sell very well.
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:53 am)GM sells “plenty” of Corvettes… at around $60K.
“The normal MSRP of the vehicle is $67,160. Your GM Employee Price is: $58,990″
-from the aritcle: Corvette Blog: 2009 GT1 Corvette Coupe – Employee Price to All! (24 August 2009)
http://www.corvetteblog.com/archives/corvettes-for-sale-2009-gt1-corvette-coupe-employee-price-to-all.html
Most 2009 Corvettes for sale are between $50k and $60k
http://www.vettefinders.com/index.cfm?Year=2009&fuseaction=home.dosearch
GM sold 200 more Corvettes than Saabs in 2007, 36.5k versus 36.3k. Wow. I haven’t seen a Saab on the road in years.
They sold 211k Cobalts, 289k Impalas, 163k Malibus.
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=74&docid=42261
Nobody, even at GM, thinks that a $100,000 vehicle will sell as well as a $60,000 one of the same model. The Corvette is a “Halo” vehicle (what is the exact opposite of “greenwashing”).
Aug 24th, 2009 (8:42 am)I can think of some reasons:
- Dealer network. Cadillac has one.
- Nationwide service options (see dealer network).
- GM or Cadillac preference. My grandfather, for instance, only bought Caddies.
- From an established company (good or bad, GM has been around for a long time).
Also, some things need to be compared car against car:
- Features included in the car beyond the drive train. We boys likes our toys.
- Which has the better ride? The more comfortable seats?
- By the time the Caddie is released, what will the reliability difference between Voltec & Tesla? Both should have established track records by then.
Aug 24th, 2009 (9:48 am)Me too!
Maybe it’s for the the best though!
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:07 am)Lurtz, I get that you are not a fan of Bob’s.
You are entitled to your opinion of course.
BUT, something that WAS present in the 60′s that is painfully missing now is the passion. People LOVE cars from the 60′s, with the notable exception of ‘super cars’ modern cars are very much like Maytag’s, they are boring and lack character.
I think what DaV8or is getting at is that they need to build cars that people WANT. There is no reason an environmentally responsible car has to look awful, but MOST of them do.
+1
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:12 am)“People will pay for convenience over abstract efficiency. Look at how many people go to 7/11 for milk that is cheaper at a grocery store. Likewise, people will want the convenience of a rapid recharge of compressed hydrogen, over the long recharge times of BEV’s – it is that simple.”
This statement is not proving that hydrogen makes more sense that electricity stored in a battery.
It’s only proving people are morons that are incapable of planning (missing milk) and incompetent at simple math (for paying more for the same item).
And you expect that these incapable of planning people will be able to refill their Hydrogen tank before it’s empty with an inexistent infrastructure to refill ?
Rapid recharge is not necessary in an EREV car. You have the backup supply of energy available using the existing infrastructure.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:15 am)Soon solder joints for most interconnects will be a thing in the past.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:18 am)Many many years of shoddy manufacturing helps that opinion as well.
I do not dislike individual chinese people, I do however have a major problem with their societies willingness to steal other peoples/countries product plans and in particular their governments almost open support of that theft.
There are major moral issues in play here and I will no longer support that theft if I can possibly avoid it.
This includes NOT buying any Chinese built car.
As an individual consumer I am doing the only thing I can, which is to vote with my wallet.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:20 am)http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/
This company has created a home hydrogen system. They aren’t taking money from anyone, and it works.
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:47 am)I would say it’s definitly for the best, LOL. Talk about hijacking the thread!! this must be one of all time most successful hijacks.
What happened to Lutz and the Cadillac?
Aug 24th, 2009 (10:58 am)Amen!
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:00 am)Bob Lutz, LOL.
As my dad used to say, “I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.”
Aug 24th, 2009 (11:32 am)A new name is one thing I totally agree with. I would like to see it offered well before 2014. By that time the excuse for its high price (helping recover development cost of Voltec) will be gone. Most of the development cost will be already recovered unless GM holds the Volt to low production numbers instead of higher numbers that would satisfy demand. I do believe demand will be there if GM delivers on its promises for the Volt and the Voltec system is proven as successful. Plus, if GM can present the Volt properly in a marketing campaign that underscores justification for its higher cost over other hybrids, BEVs and regular fueled vehicles. Only time will tell.
Aug 24th, 2009 (12:05 pm)So what you’re really saying is that for the energy needed to half-fill an Equinox, you can drive a Volt for 160 miles.
But the Equinox will go 300 – 400 miles on the same amount of energy (not counting the energy needed to MAKE the hydrogen, of course).
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:18 pm)Good point — continuation of the program is a worthwhile milestone, especially with 7/4/2010 being so close to the beginning of sales to the public.
Aug 24th, 2009 (1:35 pm)Lurker:
“Really work” != “solve all of the world’s problems”
The reflective roofs seem to do one thing — reflect heat back into space, and which drastically cuts the HVAC costs for the building. And, of course, HVAC costs are mostly energy costs, so saving HVAC costs means reduced CO2 emissions.
That’s enough reason for me to want a reflective roof the next time my house needs a regular roof-replacement, which is exactly what Dr. Chu is calling for (according to an interview I heard with him on NPR’s Science Friday podcast).
But a single easy-but-effective change that happens to be worth making isn’t going to fix for all of the climate-change related problems. We need to reduce all of the other emissions, too — like, for instance, those related to private passenger cars and/or electricity generation. But that’s a big topic for another day and another blog, I guess.
P.S. I changed most of the lights in my house to CFLs (and a few LEDs), and drive a Prius with properly inflated tires… Does that mean the world’s environmental problems are solved? Not even close. At this point it merely means that I pay less for energy than most of y’all — and having me constantly tinkering with lighting and insulation is a hobby that my wife can tolerate.
Aug 24th, 2009 (3:04 pm)Sure would be nice to have this up and running…. it’ll be the same price as the Volt the way that production is running.
Aug 24th, 2009 (5:58 pm)The Volt is a wealthy person’s car. Anyone who thinks otherwise is foolish.
-1
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:00 pm)I hate to tell you, massive hydrogen breakthrough have been made. Hydrogen is the future and will have a larger worldwide install base by the time the Volt makes GM a dime than electric cars.
-1
Aug 24th, 2009 (6:09 pm)there is a complete lack of infrastructure for an electric car fleet. You might get that whole buck right now, but where is a broke nation going to get the multiple billions (if not trillion) dollars to build the required power plants?
Hydrogen is the perfect green fuel. Electric would require dozens of coal/nuclear power plants. The batteries themselves are made with highly toxic materials.
In the end, the world has picked hydrogen (fuel cells, or some other version) and is building up their infrastructure. Electric cars are a dream of GE and the electric companies because of the massive infrastructure upgrade they will demanded to deliver (on our dime). MIT had a prototype household hydrogen power plant already working.
Maybe you should research hydrogen power, in all it’s forms, a bit more.
+1
Aug 25th, 2009 (1:42 pm)Well, I like your sentiments, but you are several decades ahead of practical reality here. I have been driving several pure electric vehicles (various 2-wheelers) for about 4 years now, and you darn well have to do the math. First off, you don’t even reach for the keys for the BEV unless you have figured how far you are going, how far your battery pack in its current condition and temperature can take you, whether you can charge at intermediate stops, and how much time you will be at those intermediate stops. Now, you are on the road. But NO impulse side trips. No emergency calls on the cell phone. Best leave it at home. And hope for no or limited road construction detours.
It works OK for absolutely routine and predictable regular trips. That is, until your batteries get a little long in the tooth and range shortens. Then even the routine gets exciting and suspenseful. But I do really love not even thinking about gas stations anymore. It has gotten bad enough that I almost ran out of E85 in my liquid burner the other day because I had forgotten to look at the fuel gauge for almost a week. No charge gauge, no worry, Right????
Anyway, for the next several decades, the dual fuel EREV will be the practical choice for worry free driving. But when we can go pure electric, I will be all over it like ugly on an ape.
Aug 25th, 2009 (2:04 pm)We need to remember that whole hydrogen vehicle/economy idea preceded modern Li-ion batteries (i.e. after the AC Propulsion T-Zero) and preceded our current level of concern over global warming. It originated in the days when people were more concerned with toxic tailpipe emissions than CO2 emissions and when the battery of choice was still lead-acid. Conceptually, it would have done a decent job of solving what it was originally intended to solve. But new Li batteries have changed the playing field dramatically and the definition of the problem we need to fix has also changed.
Hydrogen as a primary fuel is an idea that has simply become obsolete before it made it to market. It is waaaay less efficient than a BEV. That inefficiency means it is a non-solution to the greenhouse problem. And it is about a wash on direct from vehicle toxic emissions. Technically, we simply will not see hydrogen as the fuel for primary use. New batteries are better, and that is the end of the story.
Aug 25th, 2009 (2:23 pm)Total nonsense:
Infrastructure is already here. Because of the efficiency of electric drive and Li batteries, you can travel about 5 miles on one kilowatt-hour of electricity. Your daily commute will use the same energy as it takes to power a handful of light bulbs for ten hours.
If you charge only at night, our ALREADY EXISTING power plants and grid can handle over 150 MILLION plug-in electric vehicles.
If you change to compact fluorescent lights or LEDs, swap your plasma TV for an LCD or LCD/LED and turn you computer off when you are not using it, you can add a whole bunch more vehicles. We could get close to two plug-in vehicles per family with no new power plants or grid development.
Li batteries are NOT appreciably toxic. You could eat most of the ingredients in them with no ill effects. Some of our readers might even note a cessation of their manic-depressive behaviour, which might improve the level of rationality seen in their postings. Also, the batteries will NOT be release to the “environment”. Even though non-toxic, they are valuable enough, we will see essentially 100% rates of recycling. Simply NOT an issue.
Aug 25th, 2009 (2:31 pm)It takes me less time to plug in my electric vehicles than the time I waste just slowing down to begin my turn into a gas station to begin to wait my turn at the pump to begin to wait for the tank to fill to begin to wait at the counter to pay the bill and then wait for traffic to clear for me to get back out on the road. One fill-up burns at least much time as 6 months of plugging in. And this doesn’t count the time driving to the gas station.
Absolutely NO CONTEST on this issue.
-1
Aug 25th, 2009 (6:00 pm)Ulf Bossel’s report is not a credible source of information. Bossel took the worst way to make hydrogen and ran it through a vehicle so inefficient that no company would bother making it, then compared it to a pipe dream for making electricity using a car that can’t be produced. You need to read and cite credible sources of information, like Argonne National Labs, the National Academy of Science, the California Energy Commission, TIAX, DOE, MIT…studies done by real scientists.
Aug 25th, 2009 (6:06 pm)Batteries are not cheaper. According to the MIT study conducted by Kromer and Heywood, and backed up by the DOE’s Merit Review in February, 2009, fuel cells are currently on target to meet 2015 goals for durabilty, range and cost. Batteries are currently not on target to reach any of those. The fact that our government has just committed billions of dollars for manufacturing batteries when the R&D isn’t nearly finished is scary. Our government is pushing us into a technology that is not ready for prime time…yet. Truth is that fuel cell and battery powered electric vehicles will come to market at about the same time. The infrastructure for both will be adequte for the first wave of vehicles, although both types will be inconvenient for many early adopters. As the market makes its choice for both or one over the other, the infrastructure will grow to meet demand. I suggest you read the well-referenced materials at http://www.cafcp.org.
-1
Aug 25th, 2009 (6:12 pm)Fuel cells are not an energy storage unit. The energy is stored in the hydrogen. Hydrogen is a massed produced industrial gas that is safely made and stored by the ton. It’s used in gasoline, fertilizer, food processing, treating glass, making computer components, and goes into consumer products like toothpaste and laundry detergent. Most hydrogen stations, however, make their fuel at the station, eliminating the need to store large amounts of fuel like a gas station does. It’s a whole new business model that actually cuts out the big oil companies and opens the door for new types of businesses. Unlike electricity, which keeps the monopoly on fuel firmly in place.
Aug 25th, 2009 (6:26 pm)it’s like your making things up as you type….
US department of energy study says the CURRENT grid would be able to handle off peak charging even if all 220 million cars in the US became electric tommorrow. THE CURRENT GRID.
http://www.pnl.gov/news/release.asp?id=204
There is no infrastructure required, every house, building, and gas station already have power cables running to them that can be modified for high watt output cheaply. Most people will just plug into a regular outlet at night.
There are peaks and valleys in electric utilization, (there is a big valley at night), existing gas stations can use live as well as stored electricy from off peak times to charge your car in a few minutes without overloading the CURRENT grid as it is. A123 cells packs can be charged in 4 minutes. Newer packs charge faster than it takes to fill gasoline or hydrogen into a vehicle.
Aug 25th, 2009 (7:10 pm)By 2014 I would expect that the “about two volts” will no longer be $80k. Hopefully this is a lot closer to $50-60K. The Tesla S is the direct competitor and it is listed on the Tesla Website at just under $50k. Of course, this might be a striped version and a more normal version might be $60k.
Maybe I will have to lease a Volt in late 2010 and then get a Converj (or whatever it is called) when the lease is up. I guess that gives me a couple more years to save up $80k….